Patterico's Pontifications

4/20/2023

When Doing The Ordinary Leads To Being Shot

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:37 am



[guest post by Dana]

That these tragedies happened inside of a week only reinforces my sense of disbelief; that innocuous behavior resulted in gun injury or death is stunning. Something is very wrong:

In the span of six days, four young people across the U.S. have been shot — one fatally — for making one of the most ordinary and unavoidable mistakes in everyday life: showing up at the wrong place.

A man shot and wounded two cheerleaders outside a Texas supermarket early Tuesday after one of them said she mistakenly got into his car thinking it was her own.

A group looking for a friend’s house in upstate New York arrived in the wrong driveway only for one of them to be shot to death Saturday night, authorities said.

In Missouri last Thursday, a Kansas City teen was shot twice after going to the wrong home to pick up his younger brothers, raising questions about the state’s “stand your ground law” and heightening racial tensions. [A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person. The law also says: A person does not have a duty to retreat … From a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining.]

And just last night:

A North Carolina man allegedly shot a 6-year-old girl, her parents and an additional neighbor after a basketball rolled into his yard…Neighbors told ABC News’ Charlotte affiliate WSOC that the shooting began after a basketball rolled into Singletary’s yard from a group of local children playing basketball in the street. Singletary allegedly fired a gun at a neighbor before approaching a father and son — William and 6-year-old Kinsley White. Both were transported to a local area hospital for treatment…Family members say William White tried to draw gunfire towards himself to protect his family as Singletary unloaded an entire magazine toward his neighbor. White was shot in the back in his own front yard.

Surely we can all agree that, no matter where you fall on the issue of guns (gun control/gun advocacy), these shootings are not normal reactions to normal people doing ordinary things. (The Missouri shooting is a bit different as it may be found to have been justified under state law.)

I am reminded of this truth:

The answer to the “why” of these atrocities is frustratingly simple: As long as people with hate in their hearts have easy access to powerful and deadly weapons, the massacres will continue.

Obviously, we can and should do more to limit tragedies like these from happening, wherever and whenever possible.

–Dana

79 Responses to “When Doing The Ordinary Leads To Being Shot”

  1. Balancing gun rights with reasonable, common-sense limits shouldn’t be this hard.

    Dana (560c99)

  2. These are appalling tragedies, but there is no evidence that “gun control” would have prevented them, unless it comes out that the shooters were illegally possessing their firearms. I am not sure what “common sense limits” would have stopped these shootings.

    You can’t regulate hate or fear. At some point those who possess and use firearms are responsible for their own actions.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  3. How about more extensive background checks for mental illness And effective red flag laws?

    Dana (560c99)

  4. No mention of gang shootings, defensive uses of guns, just the media’s agenda to st9ke race riots and disarm the populace.

    99.99% of firearms are owned safely and responsibly. The citizens of our nation should not have their rights limited because of the desire “to just do something” stoked by an incidenary and dishonest media.

    NJRob (1f3274)

  5. Looking forward to the post about direct election meddling in the 2020 election now that it’s been proven under oath that the Biden campaign was behind the lie and the so called intelligence officers lying and saying the Biden laptop was Russian disinformation.

    NJRob (1f3274)

  6. How about more extensive background checks for mental illness And effective red flag laws?

    Dana (560c99) — 4/20/2023 @ 12:01 pm

    Federal law already bars possession of firearms by persons who have been involuntary committed to a mental hospital or declared mentally incompetent by a court or governmental body. For example, while Nikolas Cruz (who killed 17 students and adults at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School) was described as “experiencing and enduring mental illness his entire life” legally purchased his AR-15 because he was never involuntary committed or declared mentally incompetent. And reporting by the states is not mandatory. And only 20 states have red flag laws.

    There is no requirement (and there shouldn’t be) for would-be gun purchasers to undergo a mental health exam.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  7. Looking forward to the post about direct election meddling in the 2020 election now that it’s been proven under oath that the Biden campaign was behind the lie and the so called intelligence officers lying and saying the Biden laptop was Russian disinformation.

    NJRob (1f3274) — 4/20/2023 @ 12:19 pm

    I’m looking forward to it being presented during Biden’s impeachment hearings.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  8. And we have seen that even government agencies fail to comply with firearm reporting requirements:

    The Justice Department announced today an agreement in principle to settle the civil cases arising out of the tragic November 2017 mass shooting at the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs, Texas, that killed 26 worshippers and injured 22 others.

    These tentative settlements will resolve claims by more than 75 plaintiffs arising out of the shooting. Plaintiffs’ claims alleged that the Air Force was negligent when it failed to transmit to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) information about the shooter that would have prevented him from purchasing guns from a federally licensed firearms dealer. A federal district court in Texas concluded that the United States was liable for damages caused by the shooting. This tentative settlement would resolve the pending appeals.

    The agreement in principle would settle all claims for a total of $144.5 million…….

    My emphasis.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  9. No mention of gang shootings, defensive uses of guns, just the media’s agenda to st9ke race riots and disarm the populace.

    The topic is right there in the title – “ordinary things”. If you don’t like the content, nobody is stopping you from writing your own blog.

    But please keep up the nonsense. That kind of goofy conspiratorial in-group signaling against a backdrop of white women being murdered does wonders for convincing normal people to vote sensibly.

    john (546cee)

  10. I think gun culture has changed. I got my first gun about 20 years ago (give or take) since then the country has become increasingly safe.

    Using the FBI data, the violent crime rate fell 49% between 1993 and 2019, with large decreases in the rates of robbery (-68%), murder/non-negligent manslaughter (-47%) and aggravated assault (-43%). (It’s not possible to calculate the change in the rape rate during this period because the FBI revised its definition of the offense in 2013.) Meanwhile, the property crime rate fell 55%, with big declines in the rates of burglary (-69%), motor vehicle theft (-64%) and larceny/theft (-49%).

    Using the BJS statistics, the declines in the violent and property crime rates are even steeper than those reported by the FBI. Per BJS, the overall violent crime rate fell 74% between 1993 and 2019, while the property crime rate fell 71%.

    But the perception seems to be that we’re under siege and that firearms are needed for personal protection. I see this theme in advertising for firearms. Advertisers build a story that there’s danger, you need to be prepared, and their product will help you be prepared for this likely danger. In some cases it almost rises to the point of cosplay; there isn’t a lot of need i I day to day life for a bayonet mount.

    I hear it in people I know who also enjoy fire arms. The conversation has shifted from accuracy or hunting efficacy to emergency preparedness and tactical efficiency.

    The above in anecdotal. It’s entirely possible my acquaintances are just odd. But the data also shows that despite the country getting safer fear of crime has increased.

    Americans tend to believe crime is up, even when the data shows it is down.

    Americans tend to believe crime is up nationally, less so locally
    In 20 of 24 Gallup surveys conducted since 1993, at least 60% of U.S. adults have said there is more crime nationally than there was the year before, despite the generally downward trend in national violent and property crime rates during most of that period.

    I don’t think gun control legislation is the cure here. I think there are ways (within the 2nd amendment) that gun control could reduce the severity of mass shooting events. But what I’ve heard in these recent killings makes me think there isn’t much opportunity here.

    In this case I think it’s cultural and I expect we’re going to find out that these murderers (that’s what they seem to be at this point.) were messed up in some way. Either they were involved in something unethical or they were obsessed with the idea that they were in danger and over reacted to minor, out of the ordinary event.

    Time123 (8e2273)

  11. “No mention of gang shootings, defensive uses of guns, just the media’s agenda to st9ke race riots and disarm the populace.”

    This is the mindset that led to at least 2 of the shootings.

    “they were obsessed with the idea that they were in danger and over reacted to minor, out of the ordinary event.”

    I think it’s this. Corporate media makes money off your fear. This applies to the NYTimes as much as Fox.

    Davethulhu (fe2f72)

  12. …….they were obsessed with the idea that they were in danger and over reacted to minor, out of the ordinary event.

    This is probably closer to the truth.

    ‘Fear and paranoia.’ Grandson says Andrew Lester bought into conspiracies, disinformation
    ……….
    “I was horrified. I thought it was terrible,” Klint Ludwig said of his immediate reaction to hearing about the shooting of the 16-year-old. “It was inexcusable. It was wrong.
    ……..
    He was critical of the way both police and the Clay County prosecutor conducted the initial investigation, releasing Lester and not charging him after he was first brought in.

    “The only reason why he is now receiving charges and an investigation is being held was because of community outreach to bring attention to this,” Ludwig said. “The response has been great. It’s been amazing to see this solidarity and coming together as a community.
    ………
    “But in the last five or six years or so, I feel like we’ve lost touch,” he said. “I’ve gotten older and gained my own political views, and he’s become staunchly right-wing, further down the right-wing rabbit hole as far as doing the election-denying conspiracy stuff and COVID conspiracies and disinformation, fully buying into the Fox News, OAN kind of line. I feel like it’s really further radicalized him in a lot of ways.”

    Ludwig said his grandfather had been immersed in “a 24-hour news cycle of fear and paranoia.”

    “And then the NRA pushing the ‘stand your ground’ stuff and that you have to defend your home,” he said. “When I heard what happened, I was appalled and shocked that it transpired, but I didn’t disbelieve that it was true. The second I heard it, I was like, ‘Yeah, I could see him doing that.’”
    ……..
    Ludwig said his grandfather’s paranoia had accelerated in the past couple of years.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  13. Obviously, we can and should do more to limit tragedies like these from happening, wherever and whenever possible.

    Although this happens, this is not the result of most instances of the result of people wandering up to or even into the wrong house.

    Last November, the chief financial officer of Tyson Foods went into the wrong house and into the wrong bed, and all that happened was that he was arrested.

    One reason why it turned out so differently could be that people there were not so afraid of strangers.

    We can say that especially because the house was probably unlocked.

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/14/business/tyson-foods-cfo-apology/index.html

    Tyson’s financial chief apologized Monday for his arrest last weekend after he allegedly wandered into the wrong home and fell asleep in a bedroom…

    …Tyson, 32, was arrested on the morning of November 6 in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and booked into the Washington County Jail at 2:23 a.m. He allegedly entered a home that wasn’t his and was found asleep on a bed by a woman who lived there, according to news reports. The woman called the police, who identified Tyson through his driver’s license.

    According to a police report Tyson was charged with public intoxication and criminal trespass, and he was released the same day on bond.

    And, I feel, he was not so fortunate because he was rich because presumably nobody knew who he was at the time the police were called.

    He’s the son of the boss, who himself had trouble years ago. The boss, 69, now Chairman, is the grandson of the founder of Tyson Foods, founded in 1935. Every one of them, I think, had the name John Tyson, with a different middle initial.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/tyson-foods-heir-looks-to-help-right-the-family-business-after-his-arrest-c3d71d6b

    John R. Tyson began Nov. 5 running 7 miles in a weighted vest. In the wee hours of the next morning, he was arrested by four police officers and taken to jail in his underwear….Now, with his case resolved with a guilty plea resulting in a fine for public intoxication and criminal trespass charges, the 33-year-old Mr. Tyson is trying to help steer the Arkansas-based meat giant, as the company grapples with higher costs affecting its beef and chicken businesses….Mr. Tyson, a Harvard and Stanford-educated M.B.A. graduate, represents the fourth generation to join the family business since John W. Tyson founded the poultry company in 1935. He took over the role of Tyson’s chief financial officer four weeks before his arrest, making him the youngest CFO of a Fortune 500 company at that time….

    …The day before his arrest, Mr. Tyson had been out tailgating for the University of Arkansas’ football game against Liberty University. In the early hours of the following day he walked to a stranger’s home and fell asleep in a bed, where he was later awakened and handcuffed by local police, according to the police report.

    Mr. Tyson has apologized to investors, and told employees in a companywide email that he was getting counseling for his alcohol use. In January, he pleaded guilty to public intoxication and criminal trespass charges and paid a fine of $440 with fees, according to city officials….

    ….Mr. Tyson’s father and current chairman, John H. Tyson, has openly talked about his addiction to cocaine and alcohol in the 1980s and becoming sober in 1990, the year his son was born. And how he benefited from working at a family-controlled company.

    “I can tell you the only reason I was on the payroll is because I was the son of the boss,” the elder Mr. Tyson testified at a 1998 court trial for former Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy, according to a transcript. “At any other company, I would have been thrown to the wolves.”

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  14. That these tragedies happened inside of a week only reinforces my sense of disbelief; that innocuous behavior resulted in gun injury or death is stunning. Something is very wrong…

    Yep. VERY wrong and wholly unbelievable. And the Founding Fathers would be horrified at the storm of carnage citizens increasingly inflict on each other with wonder wseapos never evben thought of in their time od 15 pouind single shot Brown Bess muskets, then explain the source of teir 2nd Ammendent afterthought— quilled in the Bill of Right… the source: their first failed try: The Articles of Confederation.

    Article VI, para 4: …but every state shall always keep up a well regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of field pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage.

    https://www.history.com/topics/early-us/articles-of-confederation

    DCSCA (e427e3)

  15. The man in upstate New York was known to be cantankerous. One thing we can say is that it was not racism, but maybe that played a role in the anger and/or mistrust in Kansas City..

    I don’t truly understand this. I can understand maybe pointing a gun at somebody, but firing one??

    Without saying a word?

    In all these instances it seems like there was no reasonable basis for fear. The moment of possible fear was over. It was volitional.

    They were retreating or didn’t have a chance to say or do anything.

    Once a person got angry with me because I rang the bell – kept on ringing the bell – for an apartment in the wrong building. That’s the most that should happen. That’s the most that usually does.

    They’re collecting stories now. They must be.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  16. Thulu,

    Continue supporting your autonomous zones and other leftist riots. I’ll be on the other side.

    NJRob (ad9cbb)

  17. DCSCA @14. Yes. In the middle of Article VI of the Articles of Confederation.

    That proves it is a collective right, although not strictly belonging only to militias organized by a state government. After all, they wanted to include Vermont and Kentucky and Tennessee and frontier areas.

    The current misinterpretation and false history is the result of a successful lobbying campaign by the National Guard Association in the 19th century, in which they had every state rename the Militia the “National Guard” after the Civil War and which culminated in the Dick Act in 1903 which contained an ahistorical definition of the word “militia.”

    Later on, the National Rifle Association took on the job of lying about the Second amendment,

    Now some people also in those days of the writing the keep and bear arms clause wanted to add individual self defense it seems.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  18. First of all, let’s not conflate.

    Feral mutants, teens or arrested development near-teens, equip themselves with easy-to-slaughter guns and go out and shoot up schools, churches, sweet 16 parties, and cheerleaders in parking lots.

    Old people bunker up in their homes with a revolver or shotgun for self-defense and over-react when they’re woken up by teens coming onto their properties in the middle of the night.

    And that race angle being played to the hilt by the race-hustling media in the Missouri shooting makes me want to turn away in disgust more than the shooting itself.

    nk (680e27)

  19. Ralph Yarl (the 16 year old) seems to have escaped with no lasting injuries. The bullet in his head seems to have missed anything important. They don’t say where exactly it hit. It helped that Andrew Lester probably had an old fashioned gun – not the latest more deadly models – which probably just shouldn’t exist in common circulation.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  20. Speaking of mishandling firearms:

    New Mexico prosecutors are dropping the involuntary manslaughter charges that were filed against Alec Baldwin for the 2021 shooting death of a cinematographer who was killed on the set of the film “Rust” when a gun he was practicing with went off, his lawyers said.

    The decision to drop the charges came after a new team of prosecutors took over the case and reviewed new evidence that showed that the gun Mr. Baldwin was practicing with had been modified before it was delivered to the set, according to an official close to the investigation who was granted anonymity to discuss the case. That undercut the prosecution’s original argument that the gun could not have fired unless Mr. Baldwin had pulled the trigger, the official said.
    ……….
    It was the latest in a series of setbacks for the prosecution. The charges against Mr. Baldwin had already been downgraded after his lawyers noted that one was based on a law that had not been in effect at the time of the shooting. Then Andrea Reeb, the special prosecutor appointed to handle the case, stepped down after Mr. Baldwin’s lawyers argued that her appointment violated a provision in the State Constitution that bars serving in two branches of government, because she is also a state lawmaker.

    A judge then ruled that Ms. Carmack-Altwies could not appoint a special prosecutor if she did not recuse herself from the case. She stepped down from the case last month, appointing Ms. Morrissey and Mr. Lewis, New Mexico lawyers, as special prosecutors.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  21. It’s not only in war that truth is the first casualty. It’s in every event “covered” by the media. (In some instances with a pillow until it stops moving.)

    nk (680e27)

  22. Ralph Yarl (the 16 year old) seems to have escaped with no lasting injuries.

    How exactly do you know that?

    “He has a prognosis of a full recovery, minus scarring and long term, maybe, CTE and Post Traumatic Brain Injury symptoms,” Merritt added.

    Sounds like he will have long-term consequences. CTE later in life can lead to violent personality changes.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  23. Link to attorney Lee Merritt comments.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  24. OK PTSD like when an explosion occurs nearby – and the shock wave.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  25. OK PTSD like when an explosion occurs nearby – and the shock wave.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 4/20/2023 @ 3:49 pm

    Thank you, Doctor.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  26. Doctor should be in quotation marks.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  27. @9.

    +1

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  28. @10.

    The politicization of gun ownership, and the associated descent of American gun culture into paranoid catastrophizing was already underway by the time you got your first gun. I’ve been a gun owner for over 40 years, and I resigned my NRA membership around the time GHW Bush did in the mid ’90s, and for similar reasons. In short, Wayne LaPierre. Under his stewardship, American gun culture has become truly sick.

    That said, though I support the most popular gun law proposals (e.g., closing background check loopholes, tighter red-flag laws, etc.), I agree with you that very little if any of what the anti-gun left would like to do would make much if any difference in gun violence. With 400 million guns in circulation, and confiscation unconstitutional, the horses are out of the barn. No one who wants to kill someone in this country will ever be prevented by the unavailability of a gun. If it would save a single life, I’d give up my own guns in a heartbeat, but I don’t see anything short of repealing the Second Amendment, which obviously ain’t gonna happen, moving the needle.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  29. Doctor should be in quotation marks.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 4/20/2023 @ 4:13 pm

    But you always speak with such authority.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  30. OK PTSD like when an explosion occurs nearby – and the shock wave.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 4/20/2023 @ 3:49 pm

    And PTSD is not the same as CTE or traumatic brain injury. He faces a long, if incomplete, recovery.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  31. t’s not only in war that truth is the first casualty. It’s in every event “covered” by the media. (In some instances with a pillow until it stops moving.)

    nk (680e27) — 4/20/2023 @ 3:25 pm

    I suppose one could look at the events like the past week as unusual because every event is being covered by the media. Perhaps. But why aren’t these seen for what they are: horrible tragedies inflicted on innocent people by angry, reactive people who probably never should have had a gun in the first place (or had one once they crossed the threshold of paranoia and anger)?

    Dana (560c99)

  32. No mention of gang shootings, defensive uses of guns, just the media’s agenda to st9ke race riots and disarm the populace.

    99.99% of firearms are owned safely and responsibly. The citizens of our nation should not have their rights limited because of the desire “to just do something” stoked by an incidenary and dishonest media.

    NJRob (1f3274) — 4/20/2023 @ 12:17 pm

    Why should I have to mention gang shootings? These incidents demonstrate that it’s not just gangs that are shooting innocent people. I haven’t done the homework, but I’m sure there’s a long list of these events.

    Also, the contents of this post have absolutely nothing to do with the “media’s agenda”. These are real reports of what has actually taken place in real life to real individuals. You seem to be strongly implying that you believe the media is at fault for reporting these events and not just sticking to shootings that are gang-related. Why do you want media outlets to be biased like that?

    The citizens of our nation shouldn’t have their rights limited because of the desire of nutjobs wanting to shoot them.

    By the way, your sympathy for the victims is duly noted.

    Dana (560c99)

  33. I don’t think gun control legislation is the cure here. I think there are ways (within the 2nd amendment) that gun control could reduce the severity of mass shooting events. But what I’ve heard in these recent killings makes me think there isn’t much opportunity here.

    In this case I think it’s cultural and I expect we’re going to find out that these murderers (that’s what they seem to be at this point.) were messed up in some way. Either they were involved in something unethical or they were obsessed with the idea that they were in danger and over reacted to minor, out of the ordinary event.

    Time123 (8e2273) — 4/20/2023 @ 12:55 pm

    You’re probably right re this situation. However, I’d like to know what the mental situation with the shooters is/was, and whether there were any signs that family/friends/police were aware of before the shootings occurred. If so, then there may have indeed been an opportunity.

    Why does one become obsessed with the ordinary and mundane, to the point of fear and the need for a gun, let alone to shoot at them?

    Dana (560c99)

  34. Why does one become obsessed with the ordinary and mundane, to the point of fear and the need for a gun, let alone to shoot at them?

    Selection bias and conditioning. If you think you live in a safe place with low crime then the noice at the door late at night is somewhat alarming and you might be cautious. You might look out the window first and ask whose there through a closed door. You might even arm yourself with a gun, kitchen knife, or blunt object.

    If you think you live in a very dangers place and need to be ever vigilant to protect yourself from an imminent attack your reaction will be more aggressive. You might cock the gun and discharge it before any overt threat is made or even follow the perceived intruder outside to finish them off and make sure they don’t get away.

    In both cases the stimulus is the same but your preconceptions are very different.

    Time123 (0a11f0)

  35. If people want to keep their gun rights, they need to quit getting mad at the gun control advocats and instead get mad at the people who talk about shooting anyone who puts a toe on their property, and the people who insist that everyone needs a gun because we are all likely to be under attack by criminals at any moment, and the people who insist that the government coming to get them, and people who treat guns as some kind of fetish device. If severe gun control ever happens it won’t happen because crunchy vegan hippies are mad at deer hunters, it’ll be because ordinary people are tired of stories of people like them getting shot by people who were “responsible gun owners” .05 seconds before they pulled the trigger.

    (and, no, I’m not a crunchy vegan hippie, I think it’s fine for hunters, etc to have a gun, however I also don’t really want to get shot protecting my students from someone whose parents are “responsible gun owners”).

    Nic (896fdf)

  36. “I don’t think gun control legislation is the cure here.”

    I agree with Dana that the red flag laws, as imperfect as they are from a due process perspective, are a reasonable response. Extensive background checks for mental illness are also imperfect because “mental illness” is an overly broad diagnosis, but the sentiment is correct. We should be doing everything practical to keep guns out of the hands of people who have violent delusions or suicidal ideations.

    In terms of the actual weaponry, banning AR-15-style semi-automatic rifles tends to miss that other weapons are equally or more dangerous. But let’s be honest, there is a coolness factor also associated with the AR-15 and it is both fun and easy to shoot. There’s unquestionably some romaticizing here that goes beyond any other tool I have in the toolbox or at the workbench. We’ve culturally moved from loving our cars in say the ’50’s to obsessively loving our guns today. Is it a fascination that sweeps up the vulnerable or demonized in demented fantasies or anti-social behavior? Some would say it’s none of your business…people obsess over a lot of things.

    Could we have functional self defense with only revolvers and shotguns? Can you hunt effectively with bolt-action rifles? Would removing some of the ease and speed of shooting, take away some of the unhealthy allure? Is the point to be able to compete with tyrannical police and guard troops in terms of modern firepower?

    We can’t/won’t ban semi-automatic weapons, though I kind of doubt that the founding era people foresaw the modern day collective action problem enabled by gun saturation and lethality. Both extremes engage in wishful thinking. Sadly there are no magic bullets. More guns isn’t the solution; banning guns with cosmetic features won’t do much either. However, maybe this is another arena where we need to all ratchet down the hate and anger we spew and indulge. Eventually some idiot will take it too far….

    AJ_Liberty (564af8)

  37. Time123,

    I also accidentally jumped into a car that wasn’t mine. I was dropped off at the post office, grabbed the mail, and was flipping through it when I jumped into the white vehicle at the curb. I looked up when a man (who wasn’t my husband) smiled and said hi. I was momentarily confused and then mortified as I jumped out of the car and profusely apologized for mistaken car identity. He laughed and said “no problem”. My husband had park med our same color/type of vehicle in an actual parking spot. This guy’s reaction to my confusion was normal. The shooter’s reaction to the girl who mistakenly got into his vehicle was as far from normal as one can get. And that is terrifying.

    Dana (560c99)

  38. Some would say it’s none of your business…people obsess over a lot of things.

    When a person’s obsession takes the life of another or seriously wounds someone doing ordinary everyday things, then it becomes the business of more than just the individual using that obsession to hurt others.

    However, maybe this is another arena where we need to all ratchet down the hate and anger we spew and indulge. Eventually some idiot will take it too far….

    At least three idiots in the post have already taken it too far.

    Dana (560c99)

  39. Also, it’s unfortunate that those of us concerned about gun violence are immediately labeled as lefties or liberals rather than just concerned citizens. It demonstrates to me that any suggestion of needing to see some steps taken (like red flag laws and extensive background checks for mental illness). Why is wanting to protect Americans demonized by the gun advocacy crowd? Why are we who don’t own guns supposed to be at the mercy of the nutters who find ways to obtain guns when they shouldn’t have them?

    Dana (560c99)

  40. @17. Incomplete thought. It’s a construct for maintaining a militia.

    DCSCA (ff92c2)

  41. @35. A handful of people started stealing airplanes with ease back in the day aand forced a layered, miserable regiment on the 99.99% who wouldn’t dreram of swiping a jumbo restricting freedom of movement turning travel into an inconvenient nightmare for everyone. No reason guntoters should be put through the same hell.

    DCSCA (ff92c2)

  42. I also accidentally jumped into a car that wasn’t mine.

    As have I. In daylight at a post office. Fortunately everyone laughed and cried, ‘senior moment.’

    DCSCA (ff92c2)

  43. @32. The victims never heal, Dana. Know about it first hand– and the problem is, the number of victims who need tending to is growing to the point of stressing those who want to help. A close friend, who lost her cousin in the Aurora mass shooting, deals w/victims as a profession now– and is consumed w/trying to help others… on the phone w/Uvalde victims daily; and the last month alone, three mass shootings has help stressed to the max…

    And less any guntoter forget:

    NRA finally admits taking money from 23 Russian-linked sources

    https://americanindependent.com/nra-russian-funding-ron-wyden/

    DCSCA (ff92c2)

  44. “Why is wanting to protect Americans demonized by the gun advocacy crowd?”

    Because it works. Guns are power. They equalize otherwise unequal confrontations. They take away the sense of helplessness. People instinctively want to be the good guy and stop the bad guy.

    We are also stuck in complete bad faith on the subject. Gun advocates sense that any regulation is just a slippery slope to gun registration and ultimately confiscation….and taking away their power. On the other side, there are a number of groups that specifically do want to ban guns and take them away from even law abiding citizens. The extremes make every proposal radioactive. The problem is that no one knows who will develop mental problems and unhealthy fascinations….and with today’s social media, people slip through the cracks. It’s hard to catch every case of delusion or despair. It is sad that we seem to have to accept the senselessness.

    AJ_Liberty (564af8)

  45. I am increasingly convinced that a licensing system is necessary. The problem with that, of course, is that gun-banners will end up being the people policing the licenses, or voting in so many restrictions as to make licenses a joke.

    If I were assured that was not so — and I’m not sure how that could be done — then a requirement to show proficiency, citizenship, the lack of criminal disqualification and pass some basic psychological screening, could reduce a lot of these crazy-ass shootings.

    Red flag laws don’t work. They either aren’t utilized or they don’t detect enough crazy people soon enough to matter. I think it should be clear by that bans or “may issue” regimes are not compatible with the 2nd Amendment. Any licensing regime must be “shall-issue” to anyone who meets the basic requirements, but the tests have to be more than cursory.

    We license drivers — for something that is generally more important than owning a gun — because an automobile is dangerous in the hands of some. People who are mentally impaired, who are blind or suffer seizures, who ignore traffic laws to a great extent, or who are perpetually drunk are not allowed to drive.

    Why can’t something be arranged for gun ownership that looks at the individual’s responsibility before the fact rather than too late after?

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  46. The gun problem is like the immigration problem in one aspect. We don’t enforce the laws that are already on the books.

    norcal (15fce4)

  47. I’d sign onto your thoughts at 45, Kevin M. Especially, “… then a requirement to show proficiency, citizenship, the lack of criminal disqualification and pass some basic psychological screening, could reduce a lot of these crazy-ass shootings.”

    Dana (560c99)

  48. How about more extensive background checks for mental illness And effective red flag laws?

    Red flag laws require competence at every level of the (bureaucratic) system. Good luck with that — it’s failed just about every time.

    Background checks at time of purchase are (and must be) cursory. Otherwise the process becomes expensive and long. A better approach is licensing. You go into the Department of Gun Licenses, take a proficiency exam, prove citizenship, get fingerprinted and spend 30 minutes with a staff shrink. While this is going on they run your info through criminal databases. Maybe an hour later you have a gun license.

    If the shrink has qualms, they schedule something more in depth with an outside professional and you have to wait. Too bad about that. But eventually you have your gun license or you don’t. Past that point any restrictions need to meet strict scrutiny.

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  49. It may sound onerous, but it’s easier than getting on an El Al flight.

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  50. We don’t enforce the laws that are already on the books.

    The ugly secret is that we mostly can’t. Most gun laws are written by people who don’t give a damn if they are workable, and it shows.

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  51. Part of the problem is that the media only reports bad gun news. People use guns defensively — almost always without firing them — at a rate much much higher than illegal shootings. But those aren’t generally reported (nor, tbf, easy to report).

    So, those who want to make the message be that guns have no place in society have ready-made propaganda flowing their way at no charge.

    Kevin M (f94f4f)

  52. @47. “… then a requirement to show proficiency, citizenship, the lack of criminal disqualification and pass some basic psychological screening, could reduce a lot of these crazy-ass shootings.”

    That’s more or less the requirement/qualifications for service… in a militia.

    DCSCA (cfb901)

  53. @44. A loaded thumb drive w/a computer virus is power.

    DCSCA (cfb901)

  54. We don’t enforce the laws that are already on the books.

    The ugly secret is that we mostly can’t. Most gun laws are written by people who don’t give a damn if they are workable, and it shows.

    Kevin M (f94f4f) — 4/20/2023 @ 9:32 pm

    I don’t understand what was so unworkable about the Air Force transmitting information to the NCIC, as Rip mentioned in #8.

    norcal (15fce4)

  55. The “just do something” crowd are the most dangerous people in the world because they don’t understand the consequences of what they want. They just want to do something.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  56. What the corporate deep state establishment wants to do is keep do nothing democrats who are more interested in insider trading then ending gun violence. Gun toting gunners on the right are no threat to those in power unless they get hit by a bullet. They want thoughts and prayers for the victims not for them so democrat primaries assisted by their running dogs in the media must be controlled outcomes, not an AOC kicking corporate stooge crowley to the curb. The left has no problem doing what needs to be done as they know the slave holders constitution needs to be alter or abolished anyway. Wimp corporate establishment democrats fear the left base of the party more then they fear the gun fanatics. Non criminal blacks armed with AK-47s terrifies the establishment shooting back at racism. In atlanta armed black militants took over a park ready to shoot chased off the white racists who hid behind the police. Remember when black lives matter military veterans and antifa started shooting back at racist law enforcement like in dallas where 5 police were killed. This is why corporate democrats and their black democrat elected officials want to disarm the black areas so they can’t shoot back at racism and they can get back to their grifting and insider trading.

    asset (b6f546)

  57. The real asset comes out.

    And that’s what the left desires.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  58. Dana, I think we’ve all made similar mistakes in the past where were assumed a person / place was someone we knew and were embarrassed to find out that they weren’t. If would probably have gone differently if we’d encountered someone that had been conditioned to think they were under siege and had an urgent need to defend themselves at all times with deadly force. I think that’s likely the case for the old guy, not as sure about the others.

    Time123 (0a11f0)

  59. AJ, We can’t (and shouldn’t) ban guns. What we should do is create public policy that puts some friction in gun ownership. We should also target that friction where it will prevent the most harm.

    The reason the AR15 is so efficient at killing large numbers of people is that it’s small, light, it’s easy to Cary a lot of ammo, it’s easy to load, and the bullet it fires has a lot of energy. It has 3 times as much muzzle energy as a .45. It also has a higher rate of fire, is easier to aim and you can carry a lot more ammo. So, in pretty much every measure the AR15 is FAR more deadly to people then a 1911 or similar hand gun. This makes sense as it was derived from a gun developed specifically for that purpose.

    A tax on Semi-Auto bullets that scales with muzzle energy would likely reduce the amount .223 and equivalent rounds in circulation. That would make it less common and likely push the mentally unwell into using weapons that are less effective at quickly killing a large number of people. You could use different tax scale for semi-auto rounds or shotgun rounds and target the tax to fall most heavily on highly efficient people killers like the .223 or 7.62 that’ used in the AK derivatives.

    This would likely have some impact, but isn’t going to be come law. Gun nuts will hate it as they do any legislation. Gun Control advocates will hate it because it doesn’t address their hatred of guns. It’s also a bit inside baseball and hard to message.

    Time123 (0a11f0)

  60. I wrote a long comment on gun control and it got eaten.

    Time123 (8e2273)

  61. An 84-year old man.
    No record of anti-social behavior.
    Civilian caliber revolver.
    In his home. In his home.

    A 65-year old man.
    No record of anti-social behavior.
    Shotgun.
    In his home. In his home.

    [Yes, I know wrote “In his home” twice. I like home.]

    They are only grist for total ban and confiscation of all firearms.

    nk (701c95)

  62. What are your theories on #3, nk…why would one complain about a possibly scantily cheerleader unless: _______

    urbanleftbehind (89bdbb)

  63. @60, I sort of agree with you. Access to weapons isn’t the problem here. It’s a mindset that drove these ppl to unreasonably misinterpret the situation as life threatening / reply with Letha force.

    If it’s as reported so far I hope the penalties are severe and result in wide spread coverage about what a “reasonable” threat actually is.

    Time123 (0a11f0)

  64. Insufficient data, urbanleftbehind. A person having “visions” would be my guess.

    nk (701c95)

  65. Mistaken self-defense, sincere but not reasonable, does not call for severe penalties. But a lot of places “punish the gun” with 25-year and 30-year sentences if done with a firearm. That seems to be the case in Kansas City.

    nk (701c95)

  66. We can’t (and shouldn’t) ban guns. What we should do is create public policy that puts some friction in gun ownership. We should also target that friction where it will prevent the most harm.

    In the modern era, licensing gun all ownership must require service in an organized state militia where proper training and screening can be maintained and conducted. Own guns; play army once a month. That was the clear intent of the Founders lugging single shot 15 pound Brown Bess muskets when quilling the first failure in Article VI, para 4 of the AoC; and second try afterthought of BoR Second Amendment.

    DCSCA (5e86e7)

  67. Some people should not own guns. For example the mentally ill, drug/alcohol addicts, violent felons. These are most often diagnosed after the fact. In this country, we have freedom until we demonstrate we are not capable of handling our freedom safely and lawfully. There will always be a gap there and that is by design. The end goal of many gun control advocates is the Australian or UK models where our 2A right is removed. Fair enough, but because it is hard to remove an amendment in our system, they are trying to accomplish their goal by other means. The gun control people are perfectly happy to deny 94% of gun owners their right in order to control the potential 6%. That potential 6% represents the 2% of the population who are psychopathic and the 4% who are sociopathic. In real life, those sociopathic, psychopathic numbers on firearms are high because not all of them act out using firearms. Most sociopaths don’t kill anyone, its just if they did, they wouldn’t care

    steveg (263377)

  68. Dana, As usual Tim Carney has done a better job explaining an idea then I ever could

    There’s a gun conversation and maybe a race conversation to have here, but those are both secondary. The primary problem is that we are becoming a low-trust society, which is a much bigger problem than you might think.

    Low-trust societies are not merely meaner societies — they are poorer and less safe. I wrote a book in 2019 whose subtitle was “Why Some Places Thrive While Others Collapse.” The why was basically social trust. A functioning society — on the familial, local, or national level, or anything in between — is one in which people generally respect others, tell the truth, and don’t try to harm people. When this good behavior is expected, life is easier and happier. But if you think everyone is trying to pull one over on you, that everyone is a threat, your freedom and happiness are greatly limited…

    Yes, there’s something weird about an unexpected and unrecognized car pulling into your driveway at night. Yes, there’s something weird about someone trying your door handle when you’re waiting in your car. But all three of these shooters jumped instantly to the conclusion that the other person was a lethal threat.

    Alternatively, these shooters thought these young people deserved to die because they violated property rights. Unbending insistence on property rights is another part of a low-trust society. Friends and neighborly neighbors respect one another’s property but don’t always exercise their property rights as strictly as possible because it would be antisocial. But that’s typical in low-trust societies, and the visible signs are everyone having walled and gated property.

    What are the other symptoms of low social trust? Conspiracy theories are one. The QAnon phenomenon and the storming of the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021 , were both consequences of our low-trust society. People thought it credible that there was a massive conspiracy to steal an election, and acting on this belief, they took to violence.

    Time123 (0a11f0)

  69. The clear intent of the Founders. then lugging single shot 15 pound Brown Bess muskets, when quilling their first failure, the AoC, in Article VI, para 4; and their second try, the afterthought in BoR’s Second Amendment- was to have a militia to be readied. Every other twist and turn since has been total bull sh!t.

    DCSCA (f256de)

  70. I agree with Carney’s take, Time123. But of course, the problem becomes much more disastrous when the low social trust society members are armed.

    Dana (560c99)

  71. Another thing I want to mention: As someone who recognizes the Second Amendment and what it entails, I haven’t called for the banning of guns, nor have any other commenters in this post (unless I missed it). Yet the gun crowd at large reflexively reacts to any possible mitigation efforts as an immediate demand for banning guns. This is disingenuous, and I think designed to keep us v. them they’re trying to steal our guns anger, and yes, to some degree, paranoia, ratcheted up to 10. It’s not helpful. It simply continues to polarize Americans.

    Dana (560c99)

  72. The “just do something” crowd are the most dangerous people in the world because they don’t understand the consequences of what they want. They just want to do something.

    The guns for everyone crowd doesn’t understand and even see what’s right under their nose, the consequences of their “don’t touch our guns” mentality.

    We don’t want to just do something, we want to do something that would help, something that is doable, something that both recognizes 2A while possibly mitigating the impacts/frequency of disastrous shootings. While the “doing something” has been dismissed as a willy-nilly gun grab by hysterical people because guns icky, there have been a number of reasonable suggestions made in the comments, including effective red flag laws, extensive background checks for mental illness, a gun licensing system, a tax on Semi-Auto bullets that scales with muzzle energy, etc. None of these demand that guns be banned. And yet, from the get-go, they’re dismissed out of hand.

    Dana (560c99)

  73. #69

    Excuse me for being pedantic, but looking at the 1780s to deduce framer intent regarding the 2nd Amendment is going to make your head hurt. The Bill of Rights, as written, was intended to apply to the Federal govenment, and not the states. The Reconstruction Amendments are what brought us the idea that the Bill of Rights applied to state governments as well as Federal. A lot of the impetus behind those amendments were the tendency of the Southern State governments in the immediate postwar period trying to take the guns of recently liberated black population.

    Personally, I would prefer a redo on the 2nd Amendment, but not a garbage emergency reinterpretation of it necessary because our society is so sick that mass shootings are a thing. (Something not the case for all those years before Columbine.)

    Appalled (cdfdf3)

  74. Appalled (cdfdf3) — 4/21/2023 @ 1:08 pm

    The Bill of Rights, as written, was intended to apply to the Federal government, and not the states.

    That’s a question. There are some general provisions. But that might be the case with the first amendment.

    The Reconstruction Amendments are what brought us the idea that the Bill of Rights applied to state governments as well as Federal.

    nd the Supreme Court used the wrong clause to apply them to the states. One by one.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  75. The New York Times had a front page story today about the subject of this post:(in fact, the lead story -top right hand corner of the
    page)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/20/us/wrong-house-shootings-guns.html

    They found at least two previous incidents: (plus the more usual firing at what they thought was aburglar)

    ./..But many other cases have attracted far less attention. In July 2021, a Tennessee man was charged with brandishing a handgun and firing it after two cable-company workers mistakenly crossed onto his land. Last June, a Virginia man was arrested after the authorities say he shot at three lost teenage siblings who had accidentally pulled onto his property.

    “It’s shoot first, ask questions later,” said Justin Diepenbrock, who lives in Polk County, Fla., where the authorities say a father and son searching for what they thought was a burglar opened fire last year on a woman parking her car after working an overnight shift.

    The catalyst? The neighbors charged in the shooting had spotted Mr. Diepenbrock on a doorbell camera leaving mistakenly delivered medication at their front door, according to court records.

    No precise figures are available, but these shootings are relatively uncommon in a country with nearly 49,000 gun deaths in a year….

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  76. @57 You have a problem with 50,000 black men marching down the street with assault guns under a shoot back at racism? I thought you supported the second amendment.

    asset (319cdc)

  77. Many of the founding fathers owned firearms that exceeded the quality of the arms carried by the standing Army at the time. Private owners carried repeating rifles before the Army made them their weapon of choice, Private owners outfitted ships with state of the art cannons and other weaponry. A private owner who owned Gatling guns not only owned them, he actually took them across state lines and then across international boundaries into Canada to fight against an uprising. No one said a word
    The US finally put its foot down on the general public owning full automatic “Tommy guns” 100+ precedent setting years after the last founding father was dead.

    The AR15 is a high velocity round, but in a 30X30 hotel convention meeting room setting may be no more deadly than most handgun rounds. Handguns are more user friendly than an AR15 indoors, and also less easy to wrestle away. I don’t think the AR15 always makes a bad shooter a good shooter, although it helps somewhat, it is the convention meeting room setting that is lots of fish in a very shallow barrel, which makes a bad shooter good… shoot into the crowd and you are unlucky not to hit someone. If I was shot in a convention room by a 9mm from 15 feet away and someone told me I was lucky because it could have been an AR15, I’d probably use bad language.

    steveg (263377)

  78. U.S. military will not be aiding Americans stuck in deteriorating Sudan crisis

    Americans in Sudan should not anticipate the United States military coming to their aid as fighting between the army and a powerful paramilitary force remains ongoing.https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/

    So FU fellow citizens, non-citizens, non-taxpaying, Ukrainians come first, eh Joey.

    Storm the castle.

    DCSCA (be5969)

  79. Here’s another example where doing the ordinary leads to being shot, Dana.
    In this case, William Martys was getting a little yard work done, until his 79-year old neighbor shot him dead. Sure, leaf blowers can be noisy and irritating, but c’mon, man. Just turn down the hearing aid.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)


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