Patterico's Pontifications

1/26/2023

Republican Leaders Worry Trump Can’t Win in 2024

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:46 am



[guest post by Dana]

When Donald Trump announced his 2024 bid for the presidency back in November, he of course positioned himself as the savior America needs: “In order to make America great and glorious again, I am tonight announcing my candidacy for president of the United States.” We’ve heard very little from him since then – with regard to his campaign, that is…

Unfortunately for the former president, it looks like some members of the Republican National Committee have at best, a “wait-and-see” attitude about yet one more Trump run for the presidency:

As Donald J. Trump prepares for his first public events since announcing his presidential campaign, dozens of members of the Republican Party’s governing body are expressing doubts about his ability to win back the White House and are calling for a competitive primary to produce a stronger nominee in 2024.

The 168 members of the Republican National Committee are gathering in Southern California to select their own leader on Friday, and interviews this week with 59 of them — more than one-third of the committee’s membership — found few eager to crown Mr. Trump their nominee for a third time. While they praised his policies and accomplishments as president, many expressed deep concerns about his age (he’s 76), temperament and ability to win a general election, often in unusually blunt terms.

“This isn’t 2016,” said Mac Brown, the chairman of the Republican Party of Kentucky. “People have moved on.”

Jonathan Barnett, an R.N.C. member from Arkansas who claims to have been the first member of the committee to endorse Mr. Trump’s 2016 campaign, said the party would benefit from its nominee being forced to navigate a crowded primary field.

“I’ve been a supporter of Donald Trump in the past,” Mr. Barnett said. “I just think that we need choices this time. We’ve got to look at all of our options.”

The motivation to leave Mr. Trump behind is not ideological but political, the party leaders said: They worry he can’t win.

This is interesting given that recent polling shows Trump leading President Biden:

Former President Trump holds a 3-point lead over President Biden in a hypothetical 2024 rematch, according to a new Emerson College poll released on Tuesday.

Forty-four percent in the poll said they would support Trump in the 2024 presidential election, compared to the 41 percent who said they would back Biden. Another 10 percent said they would support someone else, while 4 percent remained undecided.

Additionally, with regard to Ron DeSantis, who would likely be his strongest competitor, polling shows Trump with a strong 26-point lead over Florida’s governor.

Of course, it’s early days. Anything can happen. But it’s telling that Republicans are willing to go on the record and express doubts about Trump being able to win an election.

Meanwhile, the rumor mill is ramping up with guesses about who might be Trump’s running mate. I’m reading that the noxious Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene is positioning herself for the spot. Without a doubt, her loyalty to Trump counts a whole lot in her favor. After all, he is a man who values fealty and unfailing loyalty to him above all else. Marge ticks off both boxes:

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Ga., is angling to be Donald Trump’s running mate in 2024, according to two people who have spoken to the firebrand second-term congresswoman about her ambitions.

“This is no shrinking violet. She’s ambitious — she’s not shy about that, nor should she be,” said Steve Bannon, the former top Trump aide who hosts the “Bannon’s War Room” podcast, on which Greene has been a guest.

“She sees herself on the short list for Trump’s VP. Paraphrasing Cokie Roberts, when MTG looks in the mirror she sees a potential president smiling back,” he added in an interview, referring to Roberts, the late political reporter who worked for NPR, ABC News and other outlets.

A second source who has advised Greene said her “whole vision is to be vice president.” The source, who has ties to Trump and spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations, said he also believes Greene would be on Trump’s short list.

Just imagine a super-MAGA ticket with Trump/Greene…

I just did…and I’m already exhausted.

–Dana

78 Responses to “Republican Leaders Worry Trump Can’t Win in 2024”

  1. Hello.

    I’m guessing that Marge’s loyalty to McCarthy and getting plumb assignments, as a result, boosted her value in the eyes of Trump. He doesn’t like losers, and in the Republican camp, she’s pivoted from being strictly a fringe-dweller to – gulp – becoming a serious player.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. Emerson College Poll-1/24/23:

    …….
    In the 2024 Republican Primary, Donald Trump holds a 26-point advantage over Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, leading 55% to 29%. Other candidates to receive support include Mike Pence at 6% and Nikki Haley at 3%. Since the November national poll, Trump’s support has held at 55% while DeSantis’s support increased by four percentage points, from 25% to 29%.

    The January poll found a majority of Republican voters (55%) expect Trump to be the nominee, regardless of whom they support, while 35% expect DeSantis to be the nominee. Ten percent expect someone else to be the nominee.

    (Spencer Kimball, Executive Director of Emerson College Polling) said, “There is an age and educational divide within the Republican primary. Young Republican voters under 35 break for Trump over DeSantis, 73% to 13%, whereas college educated voters break for DeSantis over Trump 40% to 33%.”

    Despite improving job approval, President Biden trails former President Trump in a hypothetical 2024 Presidential match-up, 41% to 44%. Ten percent would support someone else and 4% are undecided. Since the November national poll, Trump’s support has increased by three percentage points, from 41% to 44% and Biden’s support has decreased by four percentage points, from 45% to 41%. In a hypothetical match-up between Biden and DeSantis, Biden leads by less than a percentage point, 40% to 39%. Thirteen percent would support someone else and 9% are undecided. Since the November poll, DeSantis has held his support at 39% while Biden has lost three percentage points, from 43% to 40%.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  3. Every grift has to end.

    Sorry, but I don’t want to end posts with smug and preening movie quotes.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  4. TrumpWorld not thrilled with VP MTG:

    …….I’d prefer she run for senate and win. As far as Trump’s VP, my first choice would be DeSantis. …..I love MTG, but her mouth is a loose cannon, very similar to Trump’s. I think President Trump can pull that off, but having two people who often speak before thinking would be a hard sell to much of America. ……..No wonder she sewed her lips right to McCarthy’s a$$…. another climber. We don’t need white trash for VP. ……I like her, but I would prefer Kari Lake. She is more ‘Presidential’. …….Why would she want to end her political career by being Trump’s VP? Any politician who becomes his running mate will be out of a job after Trump’s last term. DeSantis will be the Republican nominee in 2028…She could one day become Speaker or US Senator. ……

    …….Political SUICIDE. KISS 2024 goodbye if it is a TRUMP/MTG ticket.The downstream impact will have ultra leftists running everything. ……DeSantis/Lake 2028. ……Trump wants to be the center of attention and not have to share the stage. MTG doesn’t fit that mold at all. ……If picking a woman is important to the political class, I’d pick Lake or Noem before her. …… she is a goof. …….MTG would be a dozen boat anchors tied around his neck! With her, he’d be lucky to get 25% of the vote! ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  5. “I just think that we need choices this time. We’ve got to look at all of our options.”

    This seems like the optimal approach. One of the issues in the last few cycles has been the presumed favorite.

    frosty (0485c2)

  6. Recall the 16 party establishment viewed his run as a joke, then once nominated, they were certain he couldn’t win in 2016 with poll after poll… as was adversary Hillary… right up to the evening she lost. Underestimating the churning caldron of populism and the growing ranks of indies has always been a blind spot w/t insulated ‘leadership’ of the Establishment GOP. Even in ’64, the Rocky Repubs dismissed the rising tide of the insurgent AuH20ers– which kept growing even after the LBJ trouncing and spilled over by ’76 w/t Reagan challenge to Ford– and the tidal wave in 1980.

    DCSCA (67d082)

  7. Additionally, with regard to Ron DeSantis, who would likely be his strongest competitor, polling shows Trump with a strong 26-point lead over Florida’s governor.

    Of course, it’s early days. Anything can happen. But it’s telling that Republicans are willing to go on the record and express doubts about Trump being able to win an election.

    That’s exactly it. Where did Barack Obama poll against Hillary Clinton back in January 2007? Where did Joe Biden poll against Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris, et al. back in January 2019? I think polls at this point — especially the ones alleging that Trump polls ahead of Biden “if the election were held today” — are less than useless.

    JVW (56cc5a)

  8. This seems like the optimal approach. One of the issues in the last few cycles has been the presumed favorite.

    Agreed. And a big part of that is how the media covers the primaries: an awful lot of focus on what the current polling says as well as who has recently made news with a controversial quip or otherwise did something notable. Conversely, there always seems to be very little coverage about the major problems we face and how each candidate would respond to them.

    JVW (56cc5a)

  9. This seems like the optimal approach. One of the issues in the last few cycles has been the presumed favorite.

    Agreed. And a big part of that is how the media covers the primaries: an awful lot of focus on what the current polling says as well as who has recently made news with a controversial quip or otherwise did something notable. Conversely, there always seems to be very little coverage about the major problems we face and how each candidate would respond to them.

    JVW (56cc5a)

  10. JVW, I believe polls are managed to create specific scenarios. I hate to sound that way, but I simply don’t trust media outlets.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  11. Talked w/a Marist pollster some weeks ago. And in conversation, it was ‘age’ that repeatedly came up in the Q&A– and it crossed both party lines. Too many of the so called ‘leaders’ in office and controlling these entrenched parties are physically and mentally too old for the changing times with several from the 1960s and 1970s still staying hanging on. It’s bad for making decisions for the country and frustrating for the electorate. It’s the nimble-minded who may survive- and that a subjective decision, in theeye of the beholder. not unlike choosing melons at the grocery store.

    DCSCA (67d082)

  12. “Just imagine a super-MAGA ticket with Trump/Greene…”

    Karn Evil 9 by Keith Emerson

    Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, we’re so glad you could attend come inside come inside. There behind the glass is a real blade of grass, be careful as you pass move along move along. Come inside the shows about to start, guaranteed to blow your head apart. Rest assured you’ll get your money’s worth, greatest show on heaven hell or earth. You gotta see the show it’s a dynamo…

    Karn Evil 9, 1st Impression, Part 1 – An International Collaboration
    Karn Evil 9, 2nd Impression – An International Collaboration

    Purplehaze (05dea1)

  13. If Republican truly wanted an alternative to Trump, they’d full throatedly support DeSantis as a reasonable and successful alternative.

    Unless you realized you don’t want Republican policies that is.

    NJRob (dc40f2)

  14. 13,

    Nonsense. We don’t even know for sure who’s running – including De Santis, who has not announced. Your confrontational and unsupported decrees continue unabated.

    Dana (f9f630)

  15. @7. Trump has one more run in him and if he wins, serve only one term. So it’s the VP slot that will matter most for both tickets- which is unusual, but these are transitional times. Alas for my beloved Nikki, current clamor seems to be focused around the junior, spit-on-the-griddle-showman, DeSantis. A Trump ticket w/VP “apprentice” DeSantis in tow could give Joey, if he runs, a run— errrr, shuffle for his money.

    But don’t count the vetted and credentialed Hillary out as a VP potential. Joe has set up lightweight Kamala for the Eagleton dump- and she knows it; a Biden/Clinton ticket can win. And w/Joe’s health, age and mental problems increasingly evident and deteriorating — the Cackling Fireplug can join the ticket as life insurance for the Ds and literally walk into the Oval when Joe resigns or cashes in his chips- w/out having to slug through all the primaries. Remember, she got more of the popular vote than The Donald.

    DCSCA (67d082)

  16. After the January 6th debacle, Trump failed to give the American people an accounting of his actions and inactions. There was no nationally televised speech or an extended press conference. There was nothing. But there was primarily nothing because of fear of criminal liability and future indictment. Trump was made readily aware that there was a case that could be made that he conspired to disrupt an official proceeding. If there was a good explanation, it clearly did not jive with facts leading up to Jan 6th and his actions on Jan 6th.

    Now, how can the law-and-order GOP party continue to elevate Trump as their front runner? How can 30% of the GOP think that none of Jan 6th matters, that pressuring the Georgia secretary of state doesn’t matter, and that exaggerating about the election fraud in 2020 does not matter? How is it that someone facing multiple potential indictments is the best person for the job? I understand that deeply partisan individuals would not want “their guy” punished for a supposed run away mob or for their perception of fighting for every vote out there. I get that. I don’t get why they think that Trump will win over independents and persuadable moderates or that a majority will trust him again with regards to questions of character.

    It’s almost surreal. A functional party would have its other leaders out front making the case for a different path. Trump should be single digits in popularity among the GOP. It’s embarrassing to think that the primary must now be choreographed somehow to tip-toe around the 30% and elevate an alternative…and then most likely still see Trump mount a 3rd party challenge. Who good will still serve in his cabinet? We know his running mate will need to be fully compliant. Paraphrasing Haiku…..GOP do better…..

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  17. “This isn’t 2016,” said Mac Brown, the chairman of the Republican Party of Kentucky. “People have moved on.”

    yes, I think everyone has, except NeverTrump

    JF (24b1d9)

  18. They worry he can’t win.

    My worry is he might get the nomination again. After that it’s all bad.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  19. “This isn’t 2016,” said Mac Brown, the chairman of the Republican Party of Kentucky. “People have moved on.”

    yes, I think everyone has, except NeverTrump

    JF (24b1d9) — 1/26/2023 @ 12:38 pm

    And Trump himself.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  20. OT-

    Today is the NASA Day of Remembrance.

    Remembering Columbia

    The seven-member crew of the STS-107 mission was just 16 minutes from landing on the morning of Feb. 1, 2003, when Mission Control lost contact with the shuttle Columbia. A piece of foam, falling from the external tank during launch, had opened a hole in one of the shuttle’s wings, leading to the breakup of the orbiter upon re-entry.
    ……..

    Remembering Challenger

    Just 73 seconds after launch on the morning of Jan. 28, 1986, a booster engine failed and caused the shuttle Challenger to break apart, taking the lives of all seven crewmembers.
    ………

    Remembering Apollo 1

    On Jan. 27, 1967, veteran astronaut Gus Grissom, first American spacewalker Ed White, and rookie Roger Chaffee were sitting atop the launch pad for a pre-launch test when a fire broke out in their Apollo capsule.
    ………

    NASA Memorials and Burials at Arlington National Cemetery

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  21. What poll suggests that the GOP has moved on?

    Trump not below 40% in any poll I see
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/us/2024_republican_presidential_nomination-7548.html

    At this point, if someone says “people have moved on” maybe it just means “I’ve moved on”

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  22. Trump’s running mate will have the same sort of charisma that Pence had. There’s only going to be one star in that show.

    John B Boddie (18ca17)

  23. “This isn’t 2016,” said Mac Brown, the chairman of the Republican Party of Kentucky. “People have moved on.”

    yes, I think everyone has, except NeverTrump

    JF (24b1d9) — 1/26/2023 @ 12:38 pm

    Oh, stop with such ridiculous nonsense. Discussing an announced presidential candidate for 2024 is a reasonable thing to do. And because we have seen Trump in action and know the chaos he will unleash, there is a lot of reason for concern. As long as he has even a minuscule amount of influence on the Republican Party or worse, is seated in the Oval again, there is every reason to discuss him. In typical fashion, you lob a dishonest statement while intentionally ignoring the fact that Donald Trump, above all else, has not moved on. Not one teeny-tiny bit. In fact, as recently as last week, he whined about stolen elections…while giving a eulogy! So stop with the claptrap.

    Dana (1225fc)

  24. republican leaders didn’t think trump could win in 2016 and supported the 16 dwarfs. By the way nancy pelosi sold 3 million dollars in google stock just before DOJ announced anti-trust law suite against google.

    asset (dd25d4)

  25. @20. Such is the monolith of bureaucracies.

    Choose to remember each as their own on their own special day… which is the proper way it should be.

    The memory of the evening of January 27, 1967 remains vivid and fresh for me. A Friday. The family was eating dinner in the kitchen. It was about 6:45 PM… The phone rang; a school friend was in tears on the line… He cried, ‘They’re dead!’ “Who is dead,” I asked… “The astronauts!” Instantly, I teared up as well… hung up the phone, excused myself from the table and raced to the television. Yes… there it was… bulletins broke into ABC w/a clearly shaken Jules Bergman trying to report… NBC reports were dour as well… then there was CBS News… the best, of course… and Bob Wussler joined Mike Wallace presenting a grim, half hour special as the great Walter Cronkite arrived later on set to button down the story the way it is… Fortunately, unlike many other broadcasts erased from tapes for reuse to save $, that memorable broadcast was archived at CBS News and can be viewed—the way it was:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdz9g5Yt2S8

    Fast forward to the morning of January 28, 1986.

    I was at work in my CBS office in Manhattan. It was cold, damp and slushy outside in New York. Snow flurries falling. It was unusually cold at the Cape in Florida as well. Space launches in general and space shuttle launches had become more or less ‘routine’ by that time although this particular one had the added interest of school teacher Christa McAuliffe aboard and kids around the country were tuned in to watch the launch. Live TV coverage was left to the cable news networks. local affiliates and CBS News radio… Since Alan Shepard’s May 5, 1961 liftoff, I’ve never missed an American manned space launch and STS-25 was no different. We had the news stations on in the video production lab where the satellite feeds came in for taping and I as there sipping coffee watching the countdown– and the liftoff. Then watching it stop. The rest, as they say, is tragic history.

    Moments after the explosion, phones lit up, shouts and calls went out to track down Cronkite [who was in South America at the time] and to get Rather on set… Dan Rather rushed into a back-up studio w/a hot camera on stand-by and, sans make-up, broke into a taped broadcast of ‘The Price Is Right’ with the breaking news and a model of the shuttle Challenger stack.

    Producers looped the horrible images, slow-mowed and stop framed… and news writers began hammering out copy and preparing graphics… Bruce Hall was on site at the Cape and a producer tracked down Leo Krupp, an old Rockwell test pilot, friend of Cronkite’s and CBS News space coverage contributor, to help as well on camera. It is to Dan Rather’s credit that he managed this breaking news so well, live, for over five hours. As the B-roll feeds were fed in via satellite and taped the production area, I went back to my desk and teared up, still with a cold cup of coffee in hand, and remembered that CBS broadcast in ’67 and knew they’d find the cause, fix it and fly again… as they did w/Apollo. Dusk began to fall… staff, including myself, were drained… went out into the miserable cold of that awful day and caught our trains home. It was a bad day…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9kWG-lAOCA

    Flash forward to the morning of Saturday, February 1, 2003… I was home in Los Angeles, up early to watch the landing coverage… again sipping coffee. CNN was on and Miles O’Brien began a ‘routine’ shuttle landing report when… again… events went south… and a bad day began…and only worsened as affiliate feeds down the line caught images of Columbia breaking up. And all the media outlet lit up… sudden the preparation for the upcoming invasion of Iraq seems so petty and unimportant– at least for a few days…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6OTlK8LVu8&t=7s

    Decades of triumphs- then setbacks and tragedies… three bad days… and there will be more as humans press on out into space. It is our destiny. But oh, the wonders to behold– and how lucky we are to be alive in these times to see it unfolding.

    “There can be no thought of finishing, for ‘aiming at the stars’ both literally and figuratively, is a problem to occupy generations, so that no matter how much progress one makes, there is always the thrill of just beginning.” – Robert H. Goddard

    DCSCA (67d082)

  26. CBS-YouGov Poll: 65% of Republicans Say Loyalty to Trump Important
    ……..
    The new poll found that 35% of registered Republican voters said party loyalty to Trump was “very important,” while 30% said it was “somewhat important,” CBS News reported.

    A total of 35% of Republicans said it wasn’t important for the party to show loyalty to Trump.

    The poll also discovered that 81% of GOP respondents said that they want Republican candidates to have “policies and proposals” similar to Trump.

    Only 19% said they wanted candidates with policies different to Trump’s.
    ……..
    GOP respondents were split evenly (50%) about whether they prefer candidates who conduct themselves personally or differently than Trump, the poll said.

    As far as views regarding events surrounding the Jan. 6, 2021, Capitol attack, 66% of GOP respondents said they want candidates to have similar views as Trump.
    ……..

    Related:

    ……..
    ……. Almost half of Republicans want their House delegation to work with Democrats on matters where they can find common ground, at least in principle. The other half want House Republicans to focus on stopping President Biden and Democrats. “MAGA” Republicans are especially likely to prioritize opposition, a stance that also puts them apart from Americans’ views overall.
    ……..
    ……..(O)ver half of today’s Republican identifiers also put a “high priority” on the House investigating the president, and also his son, Hunter Biden — especially those who define themselves as part of the MAGA movement. Most Americans, and most non-MAGA Republicans, do not agree.

    MAGA Republicans today place an even higher priority on investigating President Biden and Hunter Biden than they do on reducing crime and increasing oil and gas production, issues the 2022 campaign had emphasized. (Just under half of Republicans label themselves as also part of the MAGA movement, as has been the case in surveys over the last year.)
    ……..
    ……..Republicans are four times as likely as Democrats to say 2022 wasn’t legitimate, either. The ranks of that smaller group are disproportionately composed of self-identified MAGA Republicans, and Trump 2020 voters, who don’t believe Democrats won the Senate.
    ……..

    Poll toplines.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  27. Remembering Challenger

    I got up early to watch that liftoff, the first in some time. Ouch. My roommate, who had been complaining about how the news kept covering terrible events, came in as I was leaving for work and asked how was the launch. I told him he could probably find a replay and left.

    “Uh-oh” — Dick Scobee, Jan 28, 1986

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  28. I was at work in Washington when I heard screams from the staff lunchroom.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  29. “This isn’t 2016,” said Mac Brown, the chairman of the Republican Party of Kentucky. “People have moved on.”

    yes, I think everyone has, except NeverTrump

    JF (24b1d9) — 1/26/2023 @ 12:38 pm

    Nonsense indeed. #NeverTrump never wanted Trump to run, never wanted him to be nominated, and were terribly divided over whether he should have been elected. At best, we say “Thanks for all the judges” and wonder if the rest of that rolling clusterfukk was worth it.

    It is people like JF and the rest of the Trump apologists, defenders, true beleivers, fellow travelers and useful idiots that actually sought his re-election and still want his re-nomination.

    NeverTrump moved on to other candidates somewhere around mid-2015. Sadly, the GOP did not.

    Now, I guess that when I say that I will hold a party the day that Trump is no longer a potential candidate (death, prison, stroke, increased senility, exile to Russia, etc) people will say “SEE!! He is still all wound up over Trump!!!” Not so. It’s more like hoping that the chemo works.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  30. For DCSCA: Ike read The True Believer in 1952, gave copies to friends, and recommended it to others long before he gave that dumb speech after his stroke.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  31. @27. It was Mike Smith who uttered, “Uh-oh” :

    ‘According to the transcript, the last recorded communication by any of the astronauts was the comment ”uh oh,” made by the pilot, Michael J. Smith… NASA also disclosed that at least three of the seven individual emergency breathing supplies on the shuttle had been manually activated, indicating that the astronauts were struggling to survive in the spacecraft’s final moment…’

    https://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/29/science/challenger-crew-knew-of-problem-data-now-suggest.html

    DCSCA (67d082)

  32. So, I’d been trying to set out the “defining moments” for various generations — the event that formed a common experience for most of that generation.

    For “the Greatest Generation” AND “The Silent Generation” it’s probably Pearl Harbor. Maybe Hiroshima.

    For the Baby Boomers (part 1), it’s the JFK Assassination.

    For the Baby Boomers (part 2), the moon landing

    For Gen X, I was stumped, but since Christa McAuliffe was the “teacher in space” every school TV was tuned in to the flight, so probably that. Maybe Reagan’s shooting.

    For the Millennials? 9/11 — they all remember where they were.

    Gen Z? Hard to say. It may not have happened yet. J6? Maybe Putin nukes Berlin.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  33. @27. It was Mike Smith who uttered, “Uh-oh” :

    OK, I admit I’ve not been keeping up. Still, as last lines go, it’s a pretty good one.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  34. @33. Understood. I’m guilty of being quite persnickety when it comes to properly ID-ing manned spaceflight references. The worst transgression is always mis-identifying the video of Buzz Aldrin stepping on to the moon as Neil Armstrong. Producers use it as a quick go visual grab w/Neil’s audio quote added because the lighting is better in the imagery but those in the know, know you can see Neil Armstrong standing in the sunlight behind the LM strut structure in the shot.

    DCSCA (67d082)

  35. @32. Those are pretty good benchmarks. Might want to add Elvis buying the farm– I remember being bewildered when so many people of the 1950s generation were very distressed by it but his popularirt was ust before my time… perhaps as an aging benchmark… recall a similar reaction when Mickey Mantle passed, too… Lennon getting murdered hit a lit of boomers as well… But for GenZ– would it be some pop-culture icon or web event? Don’t know.

    DCSCA (67d082)

  36. I agree with Simon Jester. I am skeptical of this poll. It could be the latest version of “pump Trump so the Democrats will win”.

    Many scientists, political or otherwise, are as susceptible to human bias, agendas, and peer pressure as anyone else.

    norcal (862cdb)

  37. For the Baby Boomers (part 2), the moon landing

    No, it’s still the JFK assassination (at least up through a late 1950s birth year) even if that’s the first they heard of JFK.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  38. Challenger. I didn;t watch it live, but I played back the VCR tape – tried to freeze it. I probably still have the CVR tape (at least I have Iran-contra hearings)

    Other events: Watergate hearings, Nixon’s resignation.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  39. I’m a Baby Boomer, but just barely. I was only five years old when the moon landing happened. Didn’t really register with me.

    On the other hand, I remember the newsfests that were the Patty Hearst kidnapping, Nixon’s resignation, and, when I was in high school, the murder of John Lennon.

    norcal (862cdb)

  40. Nonsense. We don’t even know for sure who’s running – including De Santis, who has not announced. Your confrontational and unsupported decrees continue unabated.

    Dana (f9f630) — 1/26/2023 @ 11:46 am

    Point proven.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  41. Just imagine a super-MAGA ticket with Trump/Greene…

    That would be terrible. Without MTG on the House Homeland Security Committee, who will protect us from the Rothschilds’ space lasers?

    The GOP as currently constituted is irrelevant to me. It has no future to offer. Only sinecures for its hacks and ego trips for its narcissists.

    What I want in the next election is a more or less moderate electable Democrat.

    nk (2b27e0)

  42. Gen X- Fall of the Berlin Wall, The start of Desert Storm (the first CNN war)

    Nic (896fdf)

  43. What I want in the next election is a more or less moderate electable Democrat.

    nk (2b27e0) — 1/26/2023 @ 4:56 pm

    All I want is a solid-gold Mercedes. 😛

    norcal (862cdb)

  44. norcal, what is the mainstream LDS position on chocolate bon-bons? Asking for Ronna McDaniel’s dietician.

    nk (2b27e0)

  45. What I want in the next election is a more or less moderate electable Democrat.

    nk (2b27e0) — 1/26/2023 @ 4:56 pm

    Same here, but finding moderate and electable in the same Democrat looks more and more like a triple bank shot. I’d settle for any electable Democrat and a divided Congress, but when you vote for President you can’t know how Congress will shake out. It’s a pickle.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  46. Nonsense. We don’t even know for sure who’s running – including De Santis, who has not announced. Your confrontational and unsupported decrees continue unabated.

    Dana (f9f630) — 1/26/2023 @ 11:46 am

    Point proven.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/26/2023 @ 4:52 pm

    Here’s your comment @13:

    If Republican truly wanted an alternative to Trump, they’d full throatedly support DeSantis as a reasonable and successful alternative.

    Unless you realized you don’t want Republican policies that is.

    NJRob (dc40f2) — 1/26/2023 @ 11:37 am

    Please explain how that “point” is proven by Dana’s comment.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  47. nk (2b27e0) — 1/26/2023 @ 5:23 pm

    I just love Mormon-related questions.

    If you are talking about the so-called “Word of Wisdom” given to Joseph Smith by “revelation”, there is no prohibition against chocolate of any kind.

    There is a lot of misunderstanding amongst the Gentiles (Mormon term for non-Mormons) on the issue of caffeine. Caffeine was not prohibited by the church. Coffee and tea were. No reason was given. Some assumed it was because of the caffeine, but that was never official church doctrine. Recently it has been made clear that caffeinated sodas are just fine.

    For a long time BYU would not sell caffeinated sodas anywhere on campus, even though church doctrine was silent. BYU even trotted out a spokeswoman to claim, Baghdad Bob style, that “there was no demand” for caffeinated sodas at the football stadium. Just a few years after that ridiculous statement, caffeinated sodas were allowed at the concessions stands.

    Women who are overly devout Mormons are derisively referred to as Molly Mormons, but there are varying levels of Molliness. Some used to avoid caffeinated sodas in addition to coffee and tea (and that may still be true for some), but were okay with chocolate. Only the most severe Mollies would avoid chocolate, but those types are virtually extinct these days.

    So, one can drink Coke and still be a devout Mormon.

    This gave rise to an classic joke. How do you tell a good Mormon from a bad Mormon? Answer: the temperature of his caffeine.

    As for Ronna McDaniel, Mormons would say she is violating the spirit of the Word of Wisdom even if she is keeping the letter of the law.

    norcal (862cdb)

  48. For Gen X, I was stumped, but since Christa McAuliffe was the “teacher in space” every school TV was tuned in to the flight, so probably that. Maybe Reagan’s shooting.

    Gen X’s are the Challenger explosion, the Berlin Wall coming down, Y2K, and 9/11.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  49. By the way, nk, I am a bad Mormon. Very bad. I frequently partake of three of the four no-nos (coffea, tea, and alcohol).

    The only one that Joseph Smith got right was tobacco. Does that make him a prophet, or just a blind squirrel?

    norcal (862cdb)

  50. Switching gears a little, but this piece on Barr and Durham reminds me a little of Trump sycophants furiously trying to backfill his lies.

    For Barr, he already decided that the FBI was corrupt and was out to get Trump, and he pushed Durham to find the proof to back up his predetermined conclusions, but all for naught.

    I’m pretty sure the history books will say that Durham’s work was one of the biggest wastes of investigative resources as anything. The only Durham prosecution that stuck (Clinesmith) was handed to him by IG Horowitz. All the rest crashed and burned.

    Bottom line, IG Horowitz did a thorough job and that should’ve been the end of it, however, and ironically, Barr opted instead for a witch hunt.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  51. The only one that Joseph Smith got right was tobacco. Does that make him a prophet, or just a blind squirrel?

    A literal prophet who got all four right. He foresaw the misery a man with multiple wives would be letting himself in for by smoking, drinking, taking time out for a hot beverage, or otherwise looking like he was enjoying his life. Not so much a Commandment as much as a WRONG WAY sign on a highway off-ramp.

    nk (2b27e0)

  52. otherwise looking like he was enjoying his life

    nk (2b27e0) — 1/26/2023 @ 6:56 pm

    Hee hee!

    norcal (862cdb)

  53. Dana (1225fc) — 1/26/2023 @ 2:44 pm

    in a post-Trump world, with recession, runaway inflation, rampant crime, crashed market, border chaos, and a lawless president risking nuclear war, NeverTrump won’t have anything to talk about

    JF (b41b3c)

  54. in a post-Trump world, with recession, runaway inflation, rampant crime, crashed market, border chaos, and a lawless president risking nuclear war, NeverTrump won’t have anything to talk about

    JF (b41b3c) — 1/26/2023 @ 7:04 pm

    We’d have those things, with two exceptions, even if Trump had been re-elected.

    He would have been better on the border, and I suspect he would have been less likely to support Ukraine, which may have lessened the chance of nuclear war, but at the cost of Ukraine’s subjugation.

    norcal (862cdb)

  55. And the Trump cult will desperately need a new graven image to melt down their jewelry for. That’s why the proselytizing for DeSantis.

    nk (2b27e0)

  56. @53. It is amusing hearing angry NTs, neocon castaways and Bunker Joe rail against ‘Making America Great Again.’ Guess it’s always great with every day a hot fudge sundae, only cotton candy clouds in the skies, lemonade ponds, lollipop trees, marzipan bike paths, dark chocolate roads with white chocolate sidewalks, gingerbread homes, jello shots served in all the bars and an ice cream palace that’s the town hall … in glorious Brandon Falls, Delaware. 😉

    DCSCA (ea796c)

  57. That’s why the proselytizing for DeSantis.

    nk (2b27e0) — 1/26/2023 @ 7:17 pm

    I’m not ready to rule out DeSantis. There will have to be some needle-threading if Republicans hope to accomplish anything good.

    One can’t just write off the Trumpers. That is a recipe for losing in the general, and maybe even in the primary. One has to appeal to them in some way, like supporting policies where Trump was successful (Supreme Court, the border, oil drilling).

    Hopefully, DeSantis is clever enough to thread that needle.

    norcal (862cdb)

  58. …NeverTrump won’t have anything to talk about

    That’ll be the day.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  59. “That’s why the proselytizing for DeSantis.”

    He seems the most willing to hand it to the libs….and, next to Trump, that’s the highest currency for those elevating him. Now, as I’ve asked before, will DeSantis’ brand sell to the Wisconsins and Michigans….and will he solve his general likability challenge? Will he run to be the President of the Red States or will there be come conciliatory outreach to unify the country and give moderates some hope?

    Now granted the Left isn’t anxious to put the hand out either. They are comfortable watching the GOP score own goals and push for Trump. Left-wing media is as power-obsessed as the Right, and has much more troubling and irritating ideas. Still, we do need to get the Right to get its act together. Pressuring for change sure does aggravate the Trump true believers and the congenitally hyper partisans. It’s hard for them to admit that they’ve gleefully followed someone not especially competent or likable. They were wrong and election loss after loss is making it painfully clear. But once you’ve had the cool-aid, it’s hard to not begrudge the self-righteous abstainers. But we have thick skin and can wait you out. You can only eat twinkees and ho-ho’s for so long….

    AJ_Liberty (ae5c8e)

  60. No, it’s still the JFK assassination (at least up through a late 1950s birth year) even if that’s the first they heard of JFK.

    They break the Boomers into 46-55 and 56-65. The second group was mostly too young in 1963 (2nd grade to not-yet-born)

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  61. Lennon getting murdered hit a lit of boomers as well

    Some it hit very hard. But the point is that something hit them all hard.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  62. What I want in the next election is a more or less moderate electable Democrat.

    You got Biden, who promised exactly that. Then almost immediately he told the oil companies we didn’t need them and would put them out of business, and started talking about 70% tax rates on capital gains.

    Now, maybe compared to the rest of his batsh1t party, which could give QAnon a run for its money if we had an honest press, maybe he IS a moderate even so.

    And for this I blame Trump who could not have helped them more if he was actively trying.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  63. We’d have those things, with two exceptions, even if Trump had been re-elected.

    Ukraine would be at peace and we would have invaded Mexico.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  64. And the Trump cult will desperately need a new graven image to melt down their jewelry for. That’s why the proselytizing for DeSantis.

    There’s a difference. DeSantis is smarter, saner and knows how the thing works. He may also be a jackass, but that’s ALL Trump was.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  65. One can’t just write off the Trumpers.

    No, one can’t. But not just for practicality.

    They were also quite right about a number of things. Hollowing out our country to employ all of China was probably not the best way to serve Americans (no cookbook jokes!). And you note that we have moved even further away from China under Biden. We WILL defend Taiwan. We call them on their crap. And even Apple is moving operations elsewhere. China is going to implode.

    The working class suffered greatly under Clinton, W and Obama. Tradesmen particularly as many of the illegal (and legal) immigrants competed with them for the jobs that could not be sent to China. Professionals did OK. State and local government workers did OK. Federal government workers did astoundingly well. Anyone in a B.A.-required or better job did OK. Can’t ship a lawyer’s job to China. Most places you can’t ship it to the next state.

    Then they started importing low-cost tag-teams of technical workers. Hard raise a family while competing with people who will tough it out for 2 years sleeping 5 to a room and eating ramen, to go home with their 5-figure riches.

    And that’s where Trump came in. The problem is not the grievances, or the action needed to fix them, the problem was the utter nincompoop they chose to lead them.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  66. Note: QAnon and Trumpers are not the same thing, any more than the Symbionese Liberation Army was part of the civil rights movement.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  67. @51 Read debra laake’s secret ceremonies about a good mormon girl goes bad. (she was excommunicated for writing it.) The best mormon joke: Why do you never take a mormon fishing with you? He will drink up all your beer! So you take two mormons so they can watch each other. Those mormon kids riding around on their bikes is not how they get converts They want mormons to marry non mormons and have them convert. My handle in mormon chat rooms is korihor is zelph!

    asset (c1d54d)

  68. You’re in Mormon chat rooms? LOL.

    norcal (862cdb)

  69. And yes, I did read Secret Ceremonies.

    Here’s another joke for you, asset. Jews don’t recognize Jesus, Protestants don’t recognize the Pope, and Mormons don’t recognize each other at the liquor store.

    norcal (862cdb)

  70. Or Wendover, Nevada. Take your pick.

    norcal (862cdb)

  71. norcal, what did you think of Big Love? While it eventually got a little far fetched for me, the first couple of seasons struck me as plausible. But I have no idea how accurate that portrayal actually is. My LDS friends, though SoCal now, are transplants from Michigan, so they claim ignorance of the southwest polygamy and fundamentalist cultures. I’m skeptical, but I don’t want to embarrass them, so I don’t press.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  72. @ lurker

    I watched the first season of it, but it started feeling like a soap opera, so I quit. It was fairly accurate, but it portrayed only one variant of polygamist–the modern one. I had neighbors like that when I was a boy in Salt Lake County. The first wife had 14 or 15 children, and the second wife, who I believe was much younger, had a couple of children already when I moved away. They dressed normally. I believe one of the children married a cousin, and I’ve heard that another one, a cop, “converted” to the mainstream Mormon church. I don’t know that any of them went to college.

    My mom was into polygamy at one point, but my dad didn’t want to live it! Before marrying my dad, my mom was talking to her brother about polygamy. Her brother said it was the equivalent of adultery. My mom said, “How can it be adultery if it’s your wife?” My uncle said, “That’s what I’d like to know!” He was wickedly funny, that guy. His opinion of the Book of Mormon was “not bad for a first novel”. He also made fun of his devout Mormon wife, who frequently had headaches. He said he would have headaches too if he walked around with a crown of thorns on his head!

    The non-modern polygamists are the types that tend to live in remote places, and the women wear pioneer dresses. I mean floor-length, with sleeves going down to their wrists. They’re very easy to spot.

    You mean you’re not going to ask your friends about the funky underwear? Killjoy.

    norcal (862cdb)

  73. Magic underware too you buddy! When the mormon kids come to my door I tell them my temple names is korihor is zelph whats is yours? So far they just run to their bikes and take off!

    asset (c1d54d)

  74. Lol, no. They told me all I need to know about the underwear.

    I agree it was very soap opera-y, and only became more so over time, but you may have turned it off too soon to get the full picture. Two of the main characters, Bill Paxton’s and one of his wives, were refugees from the type of remote fundamentalist polygamist compound you describe, complete with pioneer dresses. One of the main subplots was life on that compound. The prophet in charge I took to be modeled on Rulon Jeffs, and his son who succeeded him, on Warren. The contrast was stark, between respectable, even admirable modern polygamists, and the fundamentalists who are presented as a corrupt, abusive personality cult. As a comment on the Jeffses specifically, that seems fair, but its accuracy as a general point of view on those kinds of communities I have no idea about.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  75. Perhaps the most successful US polygamist during the last 70 years was . . . Hugh Hefner.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  76. asset,

    You’re hilarious. I didn’t know that side of you before.

    FYI, your temple name can’t be a phrase. Go with just “Korihor”. That will have the intended effect.

    norcal (862cdb)

  77. lurker,

    Now that you mention it, I do remember a trip to a compound in the show. I also recall a character played by Bruce Dern. I was blown away by the accuracy of some little speech his character gave.

    My mom knows more about them than I do. She says that many of these polygamists believe you need to have at least three wives to make it to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom (Mormon heaven). I recall her saying that our neighbors believed in sex only for procreation, which is the exact inverse of my philosophy. 😛

    norcal (862cdb)

  78. The three wife minimum was mentioned and, yeah, Bruce Dern’s character was a real piece of work. His performance was chilling.

    lurker (cd7cd4)


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