Patterico's Pontifications

1/4/2023

Speaker Election Open Thread: McCarthy Loses Fourth, Fifth, Sixth Vote… (UPDATE)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:56 am



[guest post by Dana]

[Ed. I’m refreshing this open thread this morning. It’s unclear whether another vote will happen today, but at some point, there is going to be at least one more. Talks between McCarthy and his critics took place after several rounds of voting yesterday failed to result in a speaker being elected. New concessions were offered by the beleaguered McCarthy, which included ‘lowering the threshold needed to force a vote ousting a speaker to just one member, giving the House Freedom Caucus two seats on the powerful House Rules Committee, a vote on term limits (proposed amendment of 3 term limit), change appropriations process to include standalone votes on each of the 12 annual appropriations bills…allowing floor amendments to be offered by any lawmaker, and carve out any earmarks included in those packages for separate votes.”..]

Welp:

House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy again failed to secure the necessary 218 votes to be the next House speaker in a fourth round of voting Wednesday.

The House Freedom Caucus nominated Rep. Byron Donalds, R-Fla., for House speaker during Wednesday’s votes.

“Now, here we are. And for the first time in history, there have been two black Americans placed into the nomination for speaker of the House,” said Rep. Chip Roy, R-Texas.

Republicans erupted into cheers and rose for a standing ovation after Roy’s remarks. Some Democrats also joined in the standing ovation

McCarthy received 201 votes this round.

More details:

The 20 GOP McCarthy opponents, all of whom voted for Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) on Tuesday, switched their votes to Rep. Byron Donalds (R-Fla.)…Rep. Victoria Spartz (R-Ind.) voted “present.”…She had voted for McCarthy on the first three ballots on Tuesday…But it also took a vote that McCarthy had on the first three ballots.

Trump’s endorsement of McCarthy posted this morning on TruthSocial, failed to move the needle:

VOTE FOR KEVIN, CLOSE THE DEAL, TAKE THE VICTORY, & WATCH CRAZY NANCY PELOSI FLY BACK HOME TO A VERY BROKEN CALIFORNIA,THE ONLY SPEAKER IN U.S. HISTORY TO HAVE LOST THE “HOUSE” TWICE! REPUBLICANS, DO NOT TURN A GREAT TRIUMPH INTO A GIANT & EMBARRASSING DEFEAT. IT’S TIME TO CELEBRATE, YOU DESERVE IT. Kevin McCarthy will do a good job, and maybe even a GREAT JOB – JUST WATCH!

That Trump was unable to persuade his peeps to vote for McCarthy speaks to a diminished presence and influence in the GOP.

The fifth round of voting is taking place now. You can watch it live here.

–Dana

332 Responses to “Speaker Election Open Thread: McCarthy Loses Fourth, Fifth, Sixth Vote… (UPDATE)”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. With no speaker, the House can’t get anything done. Americans should rejoice because they can’t screw us further. Gridlock is our friend and protector

    Horatio (924141)

  3. It’s early in the vote (C’s), but so far McCarthy has 30 votes, Donalds has 5 votes.

    Dana (1225fc)

  4. If Donalds already has five votes, that’s another failure for McCarthy, no?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  5. Jonah mentioned that it’s probably a good thing to have a weakened Speaker, not that the GOP has any choice in the matter.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  6. Yes, it appears that McCarthy comes up short. Again. 201 votes for McCarthy and 20 votes for Donalds, with one voting present.

    Dana (1225fc)

  7. Would it help or hinder if the Truculent Twenty indicated who they actually think should get the job?

    [And Happy New Year to all of you!]

    kishnevi (0c10d1)

  8. Spot-on comparison by Mr. Beschloss

    “Larry Tate,” played by David White (center) on “Bewitched,” was the weak-kneed, terrified, two-faced, sycophantic pushover who abased himself before the powerful.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  9. Pffft. Beschloss is an ass; who was the partner in the shop? Not doofus butt-kisser Stevens:

    As President of McMann & Tate, Larry is a seasoned adman. He is very submissive and obsequious in the presence of prospective clients and will change his opinions on a dime to conform to their desires, once evaluating Darrin’s presentation by the following metric: “If the client loves it, I love it! If the client hates it, I hate it!”. – https://bewitched.fandom.com/wiki/Larry_Tate

    Jonah wails; he is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (0b59d9)

  10. 2/3rds of the colonists were indifferent or opposed breaking with the Crown. It was the ‘insurgents’- the 1/3rd who triumphed.

    This is populism pulling the plug to drain the swamp, and neither party is immune from the wrath of a citizenry fed up. Now these Royalist dweebs are in emergency mode: ‘In case of fire, break glass and shout Reagan!’ Won’t work with this young bunch. He’s long dead. This ‘insurgency’ has been long, long overdue.

    DCSCA (0b59d9)

  11. Happy New Year, kishnevi! Good to hear from you!

    nk (fbdd38)

  12. Latest visual verification images here. They’re starting Round 6.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  13. If the Congressional Black Caucus members, unpromptedly, started voting for B. Donalds, what is more likely:

    1. Both Jeffries and McCarthy voters might be emboldened to switch to Donalds

    or

    2. the anti-McCarthy 20 would think it is “sus” and start changing their vote to another candidate

    urbanleftbehind (b79a7f)

  14. I wonder if Beschloss still wants to send Trump to the electric chair

    JF (6d40a1)

  15. If the Congressional Black Caucus members, unpromptedly, started voting for B. Donalds, what is more likely:

    1. Both Jeffries and McCarthy voters might be emboldened to switch to Donalds

    or

    2. the anti-McCarthy 20 would think it is “sus” and start changing their vote to another candidate

    urbanleftbehind (b79a7f) — 1/4/2023 @ 12:40 pm

    Since the Caucus members are all Democrats, it would doom Donalds career forever, and no other Democrat would vote for him. The House 20 would vote for another candidate. Donalds is their stooge.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. The one good thing about this ongoing drama is how the House 20 are ignoring Donald Trump.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  17. kishnevi (0c10d1) — 1/4/2023 @ 11:44 am

    Would it help or hinder if the Truculent Twenty indicated who they actually think should get the job?

    they’re probably waiting for McCarthy to drop and drop. Below 200 Below 190 Below 175 Below 160 – and for it to break wide open.

    They’re were voting for Jim Jordan. Now Jim Jordan gave the nominating speech for Kevin McCarthy at the start of the second ballot. But then, in 1944, Harry Truman was all set to nominate James F. Byrnes for Vice president at the Democratic nominating convention. (this situation most resembles old time American political party nominating conventions.)

    But I doubt that they are thinking of that. I also doubt they think Jordan has a big chance. Now they switched to Donalds.

    don’t think anything will help. Even if the rebels are ready to give up, they’ll want to win something. Switching Scalise for McCarthy will gain very few votes.

    The thought comes to me that one possibility, if they get tired of this, could be the election of somebody as a temporary Speaker who could get the committees organized and who would agree to resign as soon as the reached agreement or a maximum of 3 months.

    Maybe Christopher Smith of New Jersey. https://chrissmith.house.gov

    It would just be away to put this whole thing on pause.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  18. Its a one by one roll call vote. No machines here.

    The black woman who seems to standing in the place of Nancy Pelosi and acting as Speaker is the clerk of the House.

    They haven’t been sworn in but some things seem to be in place.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  19. @16. This is House business. Trump has nothing to do w/it; it’s populism attacking the entrenched swamp culture…this clown show is all on the Royalist crowd; McCarthy, Pelosi, the idiot POTUS Biden– and the Senate Royalists as well; the whole damn bunch of slimy bums. These two political parties as currently structured have to go. The cauldron of angry Americans is still boiling– and rightly so.

    DCSCA (9f63fd)

  20. House speaker race: Boebert says Trump should call McCarthy and tell him ‘it’s time to withdraw’
    …….
    Boebert addressed Trump in her nominating speech for Donalds, speaking out against efforts by establishment Republicans and McCarthy supporters to break the logjam.

    “Let’s work together. Let’s stop with the campaign smears and tactics to get people to turn against, even having my favorite president call us and tell us we need to knock this off,” Boebert said on the House floor.

    “I think it actually needs to be reversed,” she added. “The president needs to tell Kevin McCarthy that, sir, you do not have the votes, and it’s time to withdraw.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  21. @21. Has Zelinskyy called yet? 😉

    DCSCA (9f63fd)

  22. I have already lost interest. No matter how it turns out, now, the GOP will not be a lame duck, it will be a plucked chicken, for the next two years. If not the next six. Or ten.

    nk (fbdd38)

  23. The one “present” vote is newly elected Victoria Spartz, )R-Ind), born in Nosivka, Ukrainian SSR, Soviet Union, which makes her the first member of Congress to come from a former Soviet republic.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  24. Kevin will lose vote #6.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  25. If Trump is supporting McCarthy, does that make Trump a populist, a royalist, a swamp creature, or someone ready to storm the castle? It’s so confusing….

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  26. If Trump is supporting McCarthy, does that make Trump a populist, a royalist, a swamp creature, or someone ready to storm the castle? It’s so confusing….

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 1/4/2023 @ 1:19 pm

    It does make him a loser.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  27. McCarthy down to 201, Donald’s up to 20, and one present vote. McCarthy is clearly going in the wrong direction.

    Dana (1225fc)

  28. Jefferies needs fewer votes (5) than McCarthy (15) to win.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  29. Chaotic House Speaker Race Makes Debt-Ceiling Breach More Likely
    ……..
    Going into the Congress, there were already all the makings of a standoff. Republicans and Democrats came away from the 2011 impasse learning much different lessons. Republican hardliners learned that even with Democrats in control of the Senate and White House, the party could use the debt limit as leverage to extract concessions. ……

    What this means is that Republicans are going to make demands in exchange for raising the limit, and Democrats are going to dig in and say they will not discuss any concessions. The House speaker’s race is only going to make it a bigger problem.

    Given that the Republican House speaker, whoever it is, will only be able to lose four votes, any effort to raise the debt limit would involve a bill that could pass with significant Democratic support. It’s hard to see how any House speaker will be in a position to pass a clean debt-ceiling increase without risking a mutiny……

    Most likely, the only way this ends is with a significant meltdown in financial markets that forces the hand of Congress.
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  30. Nonsense, The Administration will mint a few trillion dollar coins before the U.S. goes into default.

    Sammy Finkelman (d94949)

  31. This is House business. Trump has nothing to do w/it

    BS. Trump is the leader of the GOP.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  32. The Repubkican Party in the House has already split – and Trump is not with Super-MAGA or anti-vaxxers, The top five rebels probably want one of them to be Speaker and the rest will split the top jobs,

    And they’d rather have Jeffries than McCarthy.

    All that needs to happen for Jeffries to become Speaker is to switch to plurality voting, which they are kind of threatening to do. The Democrats, however, are not ready to make their move. To organize the House you have to win more than one vote.

    Sammy Finkelman (d94949)

  33. Bobert “You do not have the votes withdraw!” Mccarthy “Your not my wife frank luntz!”

    asset (1ed32e)

  34. Beschloss….the guy who wanted to interrogate members of Congress who didn’t applaud Zelenskyy?

    Obudman (6c7d77)

  35. They’ve adjourned, but only till 8 pm (it is now 5:18)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  36. The Senate met yesterday, swore in 7 new members and recessed for three weeks. Biden resubmitted many of his nominations – mostly the ones who received hearings it sees — I wouldn’t know why not all of them excet maybe to prioritize.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  37. And they’d rather have Jeffries than McCarthy.

    At least Matt Goetz said something like that. And he was sitting next and talking to AOC.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3798043-ocasio-cortez-on-conversations-with-gosar-gaetz-in-chaos-anything-is-possible

    Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) on Tuesday said, “In chaos, anything is possible,” after she was seen in floor conversations with GOP Reps. Paul Gosar (Ariz.) and Matt Gaetz (Fla.) during the vote for House Speaker….

    ….r.

    She told MSNBC’s Alex Wagner in an interview that the discussion concerned what actions Democrats might take as the Speaker vote continued, including whether they might “defect” to support McCarthy or leave the floor. She said she told them that Democrats would remain on the floor and behind House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries (N.Y.) for Speaker.

    “I think what was important today was to send the message that we were united behind Hakeem Jeffries as the now-minority leader, or as the leader of the Democrats, in that there would be no defections, that Democrats are here, we’re not going anywhere,” she said.

    “If they want to play ball, we’re open to that,” she added.

    Meanwhile George Santos was sitting alone yesterday and nobody was talking to him.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  38. These two parties must be expunged.

    DCSCA (e67664)

  39. Expunged? Odd word usage, Deeks…

    Appalled (517704)

  40. @41. Odd parties, Appers.

    DCSCA (2f8ca0)

  41. I wonder if some centrist Republican will cut a deal with the Democrats to become Speaker. Hopefully they all know it’s suicidal, but I’ve seen it happen.

    What I do expect to see is a frustrated Republican casting a vote for Jeffries, to make a point (“it could be worse”) to the holdouts.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  42. If Trump is supporting McCarthy, does that make Trump a populist, a royalist, a swamp creature, or someone ready to storm the castle? It’s so confusing….

    I’ll make it simple. He’s a swamp chameleon.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  43. I wonder if some centrist Republican will cut a deal with the Democrats to become Speaker. Hopefully they all know it’s suicidal, but I’ve seen it happen.

    What I do expect to see is a frustrated Republican casting a vote for Jeffries, to make a point (“it could be worse”) to the holdouts.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/4/2023 @ 3:26 pm

    It just happened in Ohio.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  44. Holding the country hostage:

    REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY would have to commit to “shut down the government rather than raise the debt ceiling” in order to win the support of his opponents, Rep. Ralph Norman, a Republican from South Carolina, told reporters Wednesday afternoon.

    “That’s a non-negotiable item,” said Norman, a leader of the squad objecting to McCarthy, a California Republican, becoming speaker of the House.

    A reporter asked Norman if he meant default on the debt, as the debt ceiling and a government shutdown are not directly linked. “That’s why you need to be planning now what agencies — what path you’re gonna take now to trim government. Tell the programs you’re going to get to this number. And you do that before chairs are picked,” he said, referring to the process of choosing and installing House committee chairs.
    ……..
    Another reporter noted to Norman that House Republicans lack the power to dictate those spending terms to Democratic President Joe Biden’s White House and a Democratic-controlled Senate, a reality Norman conceded. His band of Freedom Caucus members, however, was willing to use what leverage they had.

    “You play the cards you’re dealt,” he said. “Biden’s gonna veto anything. Can we get a two-thirds vote [to override]? Probably not. But it is what it is. If we do what the American people tell us to do, which is to get this country back on track financially, we will get their support. The insane spending cannot keep up.”
    ……….
    Asked what specifically McCarthy had done to lose his trust, Norman said, “The 14 years he’s been here when he’s voted for every spending package and this $1.7 trillion omnibus.”
    #########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  45. Rip,

    The same thing happened in 1993 in CA, as the GOP had a 1-vote margin in the legislature after the Gingrich wave. A centrist Republican, who wanted to be the 1st woman Speaker cut a deal with the Dems to be elected speaker, while promising Democrats equal committee assignments.

    Her constituents recalled her. After the recall ANOTHER Republican did the same thing. He, too was eventually recalled, but by then most of the GOP’s two-year hold on the legislature had expired, and they looked like total schmucks.

    The next election put the Democrats back in control and they have been ever since.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  46. Lol

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  47. The Squad went after Pelosi and went to the press, outside the tent, peeing in. Pelosi, her whip and a bunch of others went behind closed doors and put a stop to that. McCarthy is unable to do so. Granted his voting margin is skinnier due to the thin winning margin in the 2022 elections, but McCarthy should concede he does not have the requisite talents and nominate someone who does.

    steveg (398e6f)

  48. I see that in the Ohio case, the GOP has a supermajority (67-32), so Stephen’s deal with the Dems was cosigned by a third of his caucus. He apparently agreed to support the NEA position on school bills.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  49. Granted his voting margin is skinnier due to the thin winning margin in the 2022 elections

    The GOP margin in 2022 is identical to the Democrat’s margin in 2020. 222-213 (less one re-elected Democrat who died)

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  50. If the GOP has to bargain for Democrat votes to elect a speaker, those 20 holdouts are going to be VERY VERY sorry.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  51. ‘Joe’s No Fool’: Desperate President Biden Plans To DUMP Kamala Harris From 2024 Democratic Ticket

    Desperate President Joe Biden is determined to win a second term — and the conniving commander-in-chief is convinced dumping dead weight Kamala Harris will put him on the path to victory, RadarOnline.comhas learned.

    The peeved POTUS, 80, is fed up with his vice president’s failures on domestic policy issues and blames Harris, 58, for his historically weak poll numbers, according to tipsters who say he’s decided to ditch her from the 2024 Democratic ticket and already has his eyes on another female frontrunner.

    “Joe’s no fool,” said a party source. “He knows if he can add someone like Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama to the ticket instead of Kamala, his chances immediately improve against any Republican nominee.”

    Revealing that “Joe’s also looking ahead,” another insider spilled, “If he wins the next election cycle, his running mate will be the front-runner in 2028. Kamala doesn’t seem to have the right stuff.” Moles squealed that Joe is steaming over Harris’ performance in getting the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act through the Senate after it was passed by the House of Representatives, as well as her ham-fisted handling of the U.S.-Mexico border crisis. “Joe gave her responsibility over these hot-button issues, and she’s done nothing but make a hash out of them,” the source said. “Combine that with the reports of her overseeing a toxic work environment in her office. The writing was on the wall — she had to go.”

    Chatter about Biden kicking Kamala to the curb also comes as sources said second gentleman Douglas Emhoff whined about his wife getting saddled with the administration’s most difficult policy assignments, such as a plan to handle the record 2.3 million migrants who’ve surged across America’s southwestern border since October 2021. Confidants claim Harris is now feeling the heat as she’s publicly bellyached about the critics not focusing on “the strength of my leadership!” Meanwhile, tipsters whisper Biden is well aware of surveys showing most Americans don’t want him to run again.

    So the insider insisted “no one should be surprised” he’s cutting Kamala loose to save his own goose.’ – radar.com

    Replace Kamala w/Hillary??

    Told’ya.

    DCSCA (63aae7)

  52. 53. Who wrote this? The Babylon Bee? It sounds like satire. Joe Biden would never act so decisively, nor would he make such a backstabbing decision like this.

    Maybe if she agreed, or 2/3 of Dem base saw her as feckless.

    If Biden had his druthers, he’d maybe replace her with Susan Rice

    Sammy Finkelman (d94949)

  53. For all the criticism Paul Ryan has gotten, to me his stature has only grown for handling his GOP caucus back in the day. Granted, he had fewer nutters and chuckleheads, but nevertheless…

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  54. Jeffries for Speaker, only condition that Democrats join Republicans to form a two-thirds majority to expel the 20 naysayers from the House.

    nk (4fc81f)

  55. Jeffries for Speaker…

    Not a chance. If the GOP even tries to pull that swampt stunt, the castle will be stormed again. And rightly so.

    DCSCA (63aae7)

  56. Lazy azzed bastards vote to adjourn. If ever a castle deserved to be stormed…

    DCSCA (63aae7)

  57. @54. RadarOnline.com , Sammy.

    DCSCA (63aae7)

  58. One person voting “present” reduces the number needed to win from 218 to 217 (if what you need is a majority of those present AND voting.)

    Each person voting “present” reduces the number need to win by 1/2. But the number needed to win is always a whole number.

    Sammy Finkelman (d94949)

  59. Biden says he intends to visit US-Mexico border during next week’s trip

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/04/politics/joe-biden-possible-border-trip/index.html

    Yet less than a month ago:

    Biden says he won’t go to US border because of ‘more important things

    https://nypost.com/2022/12/06/biden-says-he-wont-go-to-us-border-because-of-more-important-things/

    IDIOT.

    DCSCA (63aae7)

  60. Bipartisanship:

    Amid yelling and rushing to vote, the House passed a motion to adjourn by a slim margin of 216-214. The House will come back in session at noon Thursday.

    Republicans Andy Biggs (Ariz.), Lauren Boebert (Colo.), Matt Gaetz (Fla.) and Bob Good (Va.) — all anti-McCarthy holdouts — voted with Democrats to keep the session going.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  61. Who’s Crazy Enough to Be a Republican Speaker?

    …….. After two days of intra-GOP stalemate over electing Kevin McCarthy, our main question is why the California Congressman still wants the job?

    For that matter, why would anyone want it? …….(Y)ou can sit and applaud uncomfortably behind President Biden during his next two State of the Union addresses. Other than that, there’s not much to recommend the job.

    That was true for John Boehner, who became Speaker in 2011 but was ousted in 2015 by a rump GOP faction after he failed to show enough enthusiasm for futile political gestures. Paul Ryan took over and was able to push through the 2017 tax reform, among other things, but he left after 2018 rather than have to deal with the growing Crank Caucus.
    ………
    (The rebels then) nominated Florida Rep. Byron Donalds, a second-termer who voted for Mr. McCarthy on the initial vote. He has no chance to win, but he does now have a higher name ID.
    ……..
    ……..Does Steve Scalise, the No. 2 House Republican, want to spend two years listening to ultimatums from Colorado Rep. Lauren Boebert? ……

    ……..(Republicans are) much more comfortable in opposition in the minority, which is easier because no hard decisions or compromises are necessary. You can rage against “the swamp” without having to do anything to change it…….
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  62. Is the United States Speaker of the House required to be a native-born U.S. citizen?

    No.

    However, such a person would not be able to become president if both the then-current president and vice president were unable to fill the position. In fact, there are no constitutional restrictions on who could be chosen as Speaker except that he be chosen by the House. And the manner of that choice is entirely up to them.

    https://www.quora.com/Is-the-United-States-Speaker-of-the-House-required-to-be-a-native-born-U-S-citizen

    Zelinskyy?
    Vlad??
    Xi???
    Kim????
    Julie Andrews?????

    ‘Course, my own choice would be what the dump deserves– and as American as a banana-cream-pie in the eye; Speaker of the United States House of Representatives: Mel Brooks.

    DCSCA (0b472d)

  63. How to get McCarthy over the top:

    Make a deal with the Democrats for 50-50 committees. Who loses their assignments? Take a guess.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  64. Make a deal with the Democrats for 50-50 committees.

    Not a chance.

    DCSCA (0b472d)

  65. Jim Jordan and his buddies won’t get to have their bright shiny investigations without a Speaker. So they will reach a deal sometime soon. But acting like they won’t gets more supine begging and dealing out of McCarthy so there’s probably a week more of this.

    If moderates don’t like this, they can take a stand too. Like boycott a vote and let the Dem candidate come very close to a win. And make it clear they might just let the Democrat win. That means all the big plans for very important investigation of naked Hunter Biden pictures go away.

    Appalled (13df1d)

  66. As of right now, there is no House of Representatives, according to its own rules. The very first sentence in the very first paragraph says this…

    The Speaker shall take the Chair on every legislative day precisely at the hour to which the House last adjourned and immediately call the House to order.

    But how can there be a legislative day when there’s no Speaker taking the Chair to start such legislative day? As this article alludes, there is a legislative existential crisis (and the libertarian side of me is kind of okay with that).
    In part, this explains the power that the Speaker’s position holds, and why ambitious politicians seek it so badly, which explains why hacks like McCarthy would put the House through six rounds of ballots.
    Even worse, the lack of a Speaker puts a dim bulb like Patty Murray second in line to the presidency, which should send shivers down the spines of all conservatives in the great State of Washington (and I presume the rest of the country).

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  67. @53 Hilary would be a bigger liability then harris and joe would need food tasters. Michelle doesn’t want it. That leaves AOC to lock up the left wing of the party.

    asset (54b4aa)

  68. Get your picture ID’s ready to be on the internet. Louisiana just past a law you have to show ID to log into proscribe sites. To save the children from first porn then jihadists, neo-nazis or other sites that might corrupt the youth.

    asset (54b4aa)

  69. Tonight, I’ll go with Mona Charen:

    It’s the logical end point of a party that has descended into mindless demonization—of Democrats, of immigrants, of the “deep state,” of the FBI, of the medical profession, of the “woke” military—and now of one another. It’s hard to see how they can be trusted with power.

    As a corollary, I may have been too harsh on Trump in the past. You can’t really blame a toadstool for growing on a dung heap. The word is saprophyte.

    nk (e42ebe)

  70. Saprophyte. Unlike Trump, nk knows words, he has the best words.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  71. The Squad went after Pelosi and went to the press, outside the tent, peeing in. Pelosi, her whip and a bunch of others went behind closed doors and put a stop to that. McCarthy is unable to do so. Granted his voting margin is skinnier due to the thin winning margin in the 2022 elections, but McCarthy should concede he does not have the requisite talents and nominate someone who does.

    steveg (398e6f) — 1/4/2023 @ 4:20 pm

    Pelosi already had nearly two decades of leadership experience and a track record of raising millions in funds for the party and Democrat candidates, so she had the track record and credibility to put the Squad back in their place. McCarthy has none of these things and , so trying to pull this power play just further damages his ability to advance any kind of agenda, and simply reinforces the perception with the party’s voters that he’s an establishment creature who doesn’t even take fiscal conservatism seriously.

    If he’s smart, he better have sat down with Scalise after they adjourned, and asked him to step up instead. More to the point, the Gen-Xers in the GOP need to put on their big kid pants and stop acting as if the Boomers are going to run everything for them until the Xers hit retirement age. These people are in their 40s and 50s now, and if they aren’t capable of being the leaders the party needs, then they’d do a lot better to realize their generation is effectively finished politically and culturally, and let the more numerous Millennials take over for them.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  72. @71. Hilary would be a bigger liability then harris and joe would need food tasters.

    Nah. Lest you forget, she got more of the national popular vote than Trump; and regardless of how anybody feels about her, she can speak in complete sentences, walk up steps and certainly more experienced than Kamala. She’d take the VP spot in a heartbeat at this point her last hurrah– then count those beats Joe has left…. She’s been “vetted” too– so he gives Kamala the Eagleton bum’s rush- bumps her up to the some sweet gig- like ambassador to the Court of St. James… or some other consolation prize; takes Hillary on as VP, no primaries to run through or fundraising, wins and then he ‘resigns’ some time ahead for health issues— and she strolls into the long sought Oval w/minimal hassle.

    DCSCA (e86f1e)

  73. Hackers leak email addresses tied to 235 million Twitter accounts

    “hackers”

    Right. Sure. Not disgruntled former Twitter employees, of course..

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  74. Jeffries for Speaker, only condition that Democrats join Republicans to form a two-thirds majority to expel the 20 naysayers from the House.

    Simpler to simply eject them from the Caucus and file a trademark suit against them for claiming to be Republicans. Then make a deal with the Democrats for 50-50 committees if they will vote in McCarthy as Speaker.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  75. Tonight, I’ll go with Mona Charen

    she’d love to have you, nk, as she has no one else

    but that comes with demonizing the 74 million, then pretending everyone was born yesterday and didn’t notice

    JF (0980f2)

  76. Jim Jordan and his buddies won’t get to have their bright shiny investigations without a Speaker

    Jim Jordan is voting for McCarthy every time.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  77. From Patterico’s Twitter feed.

    This one may be even better.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  78. @76 I know something about democratic politics. Only the corporate establishment donor class, DNC and older white women like hillary. Everyone else who voted for her (not me or other bernie supporters also 70,000 blacks voted down ballot and left presidential preference blank in detroit) held their nose and voted for the lesser of two evils which I guess she was maybe. Her supporters kept saying you have to vote what ever crap we throw against the wall that sticks to defeat trump. She is electable! After she lost even less democrats were with her. NY times said she should go home and knit! AOC and the left wouldn’t support clinton for veep and neither would younger minorities. Look what happened to clinton stooges in 2022 ny congressional races.

    asset (54b4aa)

  79. @82. She got the popular votes. And if she gets offered and takes the #2 spot– and if they lose, the blame goes to the top of the ticket anyway. But this cycle, she’d by the insurance policy; and they’ll sell her as seasoned, tested ‘under fire’ – experienced as a senator, a secretary of state and a classic swampy feminist first lady. Exactly what the Royalist class want.

    DCSCA (f89c72)

  80. Never Trumper Mona Charen is irrelevant; more dust on her than on the Ocean of Storms; bottom of the decker; a flea brushed out of the tail that no longer wags the dog years ago.

    DCSCA (f89c72)

  81. “Saprophyte. Unlike Trump, nk knows words, he has the best words.”

    He taught me callipygian. I am thankful.

    AJ_Liberty (4aef39)

  82. “Never Trumper Mona Charen is irrelevant”

    That’s the funny thing about the truth — it doesn’t care.

    McCarthy is about as MAGA-accommodating as you can get. Charen outlines it succinctly. If you can’t argue with her point, then all that’s left is to put fingers in ears and try to dismiss her. Fallacy anyone? We have to now believe…despite Trump’s endorsement….that McCarthy is “establishment”….because all the dissenters bring to the table is being anti-establishment. Heck, many of the “concessions” they want are the same ones that the liberal democrats want. It’s posturing for fund raising.

    The other awful truth is: does any of this matter? Certainly no speaker means the House is never in order and the debt bomb can explode, however even the dimmest obstructionist has some sense of self preservation. But otherwise, no great compromises are expected to get hammered out between the House and Senate…..and the anticipated retaliatory investigations will just expose the tendentiousness of it all. Cynicism will grow. A gridlocked Speaker managing political performances and looking ahead to the soul-sucking promise of a Trump presidential candidacy. Paul Ryan’s escape is looking smarter and smarter….

    AJ_Liberty (4aef39)

  83. Simpler to simply eject them from the Caucus and file a trademark suit against them for claiming to be Republicans. Then make a deal with the Democrats for 50-50 committees if they will vote in McCarthy as Speaker.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/4/2023 @ 10:45 pm

    Why is McCarthy entitled to the Speaker position? This isn’t a coronation, although the GOPe certainly believes that’s how the party should be run. Pelosi has faced insurgencies of her own but still managed to get the votes she needed.

    Making a move like that, for someone who hasn’t actually proved himself, just reinforces to the party base that the GOPe won’t brook any internal criticism and will simply expel those who don’t go along with being nothing more than controlled opposition.

    If that’s the case, the GOP deserves to die and the Democrats deserve to have decades in the majority. At least the latter know their agenda and understand how to use political authority to advance it. The GOPe isn’t concerned with anything more than trying to get the media to say nice things about them and maintaining their own sinecures.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  84. We have to now believe…despite Trump’s endorsement….that McCarthy is “establishment”….because all the dissenters bring to the table is being anti-establishment.

    Just because Trump said something doesn’t mean the party’s voters have to go along with it. For someone who whines constantly about the political tribalism of cultural conservatives, you sure do have a deeply tribalistic view of how politics should be run–“Dear Leader said you should do this, why aren’t you going along with it like I expect you to?”

    Heck, many of the “concessions” they want are the same ones that the liberal democrats want.

    This doesn’t even pass the laugh test. Liberal democrats want a balanced budget, passage of the Fair Tax Act, a crack down on illegal immigration, and Congressional term limits? It says something that you’re arguing that these policies are in any way controversial or liberal in nature. These are policies that even neocons supported as far back as the 1990s.

    Seriously, are there ANY conservative policies that you actually support? Because what we mostly see from you is a lot of whinging when conservatives advocate for traditionally conservative positions and don’t give in to liberals on those positions.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d)

  85. Easier removal of the Speaker, more members of their caucus on important committees, and an easier amendment process, are all things The Squad wants too.

    Balanced budget? Fat chance! The trailer parks like their free money just as much as the inner cities.

    Term limits? For Your Ears Only! It would require a Constitutional Amendment.

    Fair Tax Act? Ha, ha, ha, ha! Pull the other one, it’s got bells on it.

    Illegal immigration? Yes, there they are different from the Democrats. They have different mega-donors who need cheap labor.

    nk (95d2fb)

  86. nk,

    South Carolina’s Rep. Ralph Norman has proposed such a constitutional amendment.

    Dana (1225fc)

  87. nk’s on fire.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  88. Easier removal of the Speaker, more members of their caucus on important committees, and an easier amendment process, are all things The Squad wants too.

    I guess nk’s not familiar with the fact that easier removal of the Speaker was a rule of the House before Pelosi’s last stand, and that Amash has even proposed returning to it.

    The effort to try and frame any of these policies as somehow being liberal or extreme simply reveals the depths of the tribalism the self-styled moderates love to decry in others.

    The rest of your post is just rhetorical hand-waving and deflection because you can’t, in fact, refute them as unconservative or even extremist.

    nk’s on fire.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 1/5/2023 @ 8:09 am

    It’s not a surprise that someone who can’t even name a conservative policy he supports would think these sort of midwit responses are clever.

    Factory Working Orphan (7f385d)

  89. Thank you, Dana, I did not know that.

    nk (95d2fb)

  90. What’s that line? Ah, yes, it’s even a book title, and it works with just one letter added: “Can’t anybody there play this game?”

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  91. I suppose some of the commenters here seem to have missed the fact that these 20 reps all come from deeply conservative districts where Trump won by as many as 40 or 50 points.

    That they have such a problem with the very kind of conservative policies that the party’s mainstream party politicians endorsed for decades indicates how hollowed-out and self-indulgent the neoconservative movement has become.

    Factory Working Orphan (7f385d)

  92. Trump and his supporters made “conservative” meaningless.

    nk (95d2fb)

  93. Trump and his supporters made it clear that the term “conservative” has been meaningless for some time.

    frosty (fc6b10)

  94. Trump and his supporters made “conservative” meaningless.

    nk (95d2fb) — 1/5/2023 @ 8:36 am

    I see a lot of this “I know you are, but what am I” replies from leftists, too.

    “The conservatives don’t believe in policy anymore!”
    “Here’s policies the mainstream party supported for years.”
    “HURR HURR, THOSE ARE JUST STUPID!”

    My four-year-old comes up with more sophisticated arguments when she gets caught sneaking cookies.

    Factory Working Orphan (7f385d)

  95. Some of these concessions will simply move the current impasse into every future debate. McCarthy is clearly seen as a weak sister by the HFC. A proper Speaker would have long since bi*ch-slapped them.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  96. Pathetic:

    House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy has made fresh concessions to a group of 20 GOP lawmakers in hopes of ending their blockade of his speakership ahead of votes Thursday, a stunning reversal that, if adopted, would weaken the position of speaker and ensure a tenuous hold on the job.
    ………
    In a major allowance to the hard-right Republicans, McCarthy offered to lower from five to one the number of members required to sponsor a resolution to force a vote on ousting the speaker — a change that the California Republican had previously said he would not accept.

    McCarthy also expressed a willingness to place more members of the staunchly conservative House Freedom Caucus on the House Rules Committee, which debates legislation before it’s moved to the floor.

    And he relented on allowing floor votes to institute term limits on members and to enact specific border policy legislation.

    It remained unclear early Thursday whether the concessions could move the holdouts, several of whom have said they will not support McCarthy no matter what. ……..
    One lawmaker who emerged from the whip meeting, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations, said they think Texas Republican Chip Roy and possibly 10 others could be swayed with McCarthy’s latest concessions. But it remains unclear whether those defectors will flip to McCarthy or instead vote present, which wouldn’t help McCarthy’s quest for a majority on the floor.

    “This could take days,” the lawmaker said.
    ………

    The incredible shrinking McCarthy. If he is elected Speaker, my bet is that he will serve less than a year before a challenge.

    Related:

    House committee staffers face no pay if speaker isn’t decided by Jan. 13, officials warn
    ……..
    And the guidance — provided by the House Administration Committee and sent out by the House’s chief administrative officer — points to a big warning date: Jan. 13.

    “Committees need to be aware that should a House Rules package not be adopted by end of business on January 13 no committee will be able to process payroll since the committee’s authority for the new Congress is not yet confirmed,” according to the memo sent out to House committees.

    Also, according to the guidance, if by the end of Jan. 13 the House hasn’t adopted a rules package that outlines how the chamber will run next year, committees won’t be able to process student loan repayments. That means House employees enrolled in the 10-year student loan forgiveness program may face breaks in service, which can affect both retirement and whether they qualify for loan forgiveness.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  97. That they have such a problem with the very kind of conservative policies that the party’s mainstream party politicians endorsed for decades indicates how hollowed-out and self-indulgent the neoconservative movement has become.

    The Trumpists have been destructive of the entire Right since 2015. Not ONE thing they have done has been constructive, and they seem more a fifth column intent on destruction than anything.

    The only effective thing to come out of the Trump years has been in the courts, and that was basically because Trump agreed to appoint judges selected for him.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  98. Yeah, every conservative has auditioned for a movie with Stormy Daniels and falling short of the part has gone and trashed the Capitol during the Electoral Vote count. It’s a conservative policy.

    nk (95d2fb)

  99. nk,

    South Carolina’s Rep. Ralph Norman has proposed such a constitutional amendment.

    Dana (1225fc) — 1/5/2023 @ 7:57 am

    And what are its chances of passage in Congress and approval by the states? Performance Art.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  100. At least the latter know their agenda and understand how to use political authority to advance it. The GOPe isn’t concerned with anything more than trying to get the media to say nice things about them and maintaining their own sinecures.

    The GOP was going gangbusters until the Troll showed up in 2015. The HFC is a separate party from the GOP. Maybe you like it better, but they are CLEARLY not interested in working with other Republicans, just as you are not. They (and you) are the true RINOs.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  101. And what are its chances of passage in Congress

    290 votes in the House, 67 in the Senate. Easy peasy.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  102. “In May 1995, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5–4 in U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995), that states cannot impose term limits upon their federal representatives or senators.”

    So we need a constitutional amendment. I think it’s fine if the GOP wants to champion this, but the sentiment is usually that we want to term-limit the other guy…not my guy. Mike Lee has supported term limits and promised to run for only two terms. He just won his third term. If he really feels that it is problematic, then why not step away for the good of the institution? A party could voluntarily require it if it was generally good.

    This is a populist issue. There may be enough on-the-ground support (>75%) to actually get an amendment. Probably two terms for senators and 6 terms for house members. Maybe there could be a deadtime of 8 years where you can run again. Another version might allow term-limited individuals to run as write-ins for very popular individuals. I feel like this has been talked about my entire life. I think polarization stops the call for a constitutional convention. Neither side will trust the other. There’s not enough good will. A 2/3 vote in each house of congress could be tried. I like the idea of a forced churn that will compel parties to do more candidate development/outreach. On the other hand, we’ve seen term-limited governors cause abrupt switches of power…like in Maryland this last go around. It’s one of those where you may not like what you get when it starts to play out. One always envisions Pelosi and Schumer exiting, but one can also imagine a lot of chaff being introduced too.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  103. 290 votes in the House, 67 in the Senate. Easy peasy.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/5/2023 @ 9:07 am

    LOL!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  104. We have term limits. They are called elections.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  105. The HFC and the Trump movement is not a force for change. They have no real platform or goals. All they have is a list of things they are against.

    Destruction is easy. Building something new is hard. Trump was a destructor, but his people are still there, blocking any attempt to build on the rubble.

    They will ultimately fail, but that isn’t really their concern; as long as everyone else fails, they’re OK with it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  106. Most if not all of the Democrats in the House would vote against a constitutional amendment imposing term limits (or a balanced budget), so they are DOA. But go ahead and have a vote-it’s performance art for the masses (like the Speaker fight).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  107. Term limits have not been effective. At least not in the ways hoped for. What they have done is to weaken individual legislators and strengthen executive departments (bureaucrats are not term limited). They have also made legislators utterly dependent on parties and their machines.

    When you destroy a source of power (e.g. long-serving legislators) the power simply moves to others. In this case party machines, which are the alternative “backers” of the would-be legislator.

    The California legislature is a prime example of this. Instead of the Willie Browns of old, you now have a faceless blob of party hacks, voting in lockstep.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  108. The Democrats seem to be enjoying this. They are getting free and frequent cheap shots at their opponents’ unprotected jaws, and the GOP is just sitting there and taking it. More evidence that McCarthy is a weak sister, and more evidence that the HFC is a fifth column.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  109. From Ballotpedia:

    Congressional term limits were featured prominently in the Republican Party’s Contract with America in the United States House 1994 election campaign and may well have contributed to the Republicans gaining control of the United States House of Representatives from the Democratic Party for the first time since the United States 1952 elections. The Republican leadership brought to the floor of the House a constitutional amendment that would limit House members to six two-year terms and members of the Senate to two six-year terms. However, this amendment did not gain the approval of U.S. Term Limits, the largest private organization pushing for Congressional term limits. (U.S. Term Limits wanted House members to be limited to three two-year terms.) With the Republicans holding 230 seats in the House, the amendment did receive a simple majority in the House. However, a two-thirds majority (290 votes) is required to pass a constitutional amendment, and thus the bill failed. The concept subsequently lost momentum by the mid 1990s.

    nk (95d2fb)

  110. That’s the funny thing about the truth — it doesn’t care

    Indeed; the trutrh is Never-Trumper Charen is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (5c999a)

  111. I think a Balanced Budget Amendment also always sounds good…especially to this fiscal conservative, but the devil is truly in the details….and those details will be hugely controversial. Personally, I would think the pain would need to be spread between all constituents, meaning taxpayers, non-taxpayers, and government employees. But what should be done with social security accounting would be an open question…is it on or off budget? Automatic cuts to entitlements; automatic increases to taxes; and automatic furlough days for gov employees would be hugely unpopular. It sounds good to force action that is otherwise avoided, but making these tradeoffs and compromises and hard decisions is the job of Congress…and they should be doing it. Now I suppose you could leave the debt solution open-ended in the amendment and leave it up to the current congress to fashion the policy. I doubt politicians will want to be forced to compromise, so what would be the cudgel? No one has talked seriously about deficits and debt in a long time….a lot of attitudes will have to change before populists will accept that their taxes will go up or their benefits will go down because of this. Again, most are fine with the other guy paying more….that’s why the rich are easy targets.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  112. The GOP was going gangbusters until the Troll showed up in 2015.

    All populist warnings to the contrary: Perot, Buchanan, Palin… Tea Party…

    Accordingly, FIFY: The Titanic was going gangbusters until the iceberg showed up in 1912.

    DCSCA (5c999a)

  113. @115. Vote bill by bill- actually READ them… limit text to X- number of wprds or pages… piss on more bureaucracies like a BB amendment. Even idiot POTUS foolishly proposed another ‘program’ this morning to stem the banks of the Rio Grande being stormed by illegals. None of these factions in either party are addressing the festering problem: themselves. Hence castles get stormed.

    Nominate an outsider for Speaker of the House: Mel Brooks.

    DCSCA (5c999a)

  114. Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/5/2023 @ 9:02 am

    nk (95d2fb) — 1/5/2023 @ 9:03 am

    Neither of these responses refutes the fact that these policies had decades-long support by mainstream Republican politicians, nor proves that they are actually liberal policies, as AJ asserted.

    The GOP was going gangbusters until the Troll showed up in 2015.

    That was because of the populist tea party insurgency in the wake of Dubya’s disastrous presidency, TARP, and McCain jobbing out to Obama, not the neocons.

    The HFC and the Trump movement is not a force for change. They have no real platform or goals. All they have is a list of things they are against.

    They caused a deadlock over the Speaker position with actual policy demands and goals, and you guys are screaming about it simply because it’s the conservatives who proposed them.

    Factory Working Orphan (7f385d)

  115. We have term limits. They are called elections.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/5/2023 @ 9:11 am

    Yeah, my Democrat professors said the same thing when the Contract with America was released and the Reps had the 1994 wipeout.

    There’s nothing inherently bad about term limits if we can tolerate a constitutional amendment limiting the President to them.

    Factory Working Orphan (7f385d)

  116. Gaetz just nominated Trump for speaker.

    Dana (1225fc)

  117. “nor proves that they are actually liberal policies, as AJ asserted.”

    No, AJLiberty asserted that the procedural requests…like weakening the power of the Speaker….are all consistent with what the hard Left wants as well. Making the next two years as much of a sh*t-show as possible seems to be where the hard Left and hard Right agree….and why there is interest in chatting up AOC.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  118. This ‘you can read and find out what’s in the bill after we pass it’ Royalist attitude- and bothe the Dsd and Rs push it– has to end.

    Nominate Ashli Babbitt for Speaker.

    DCSCA (5c999a)

  119. A proper Speaker would have long since bi*ch-slapped them.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/5/2023 @ 8:57 am

    The rank and file yearning for a proper b1tch-slap and leadership being unable to supply it does seem to be a symptom of the dysfunctional relationship within the GOPe.

    frosty (fc6b10)

  120. Yet again, it doesn’t look like McCarthy has the votes.

    Dana (1225fc)

  121. I agree that it is vastly more socially acceptable to denigrate poor whites in trailers and further agree that white urban progressives despise them, but I really don’t see too many white conservatives despising people of various colors living in poverty in progressive urban areas. There are individuals, families, urban, rural of all colors that are despicable and nobody likes them because they game the well intended help systems, then they often have a supplemental income plan which revolves around theft, drug sales.

    I’m lazy with language, so sometimes I forget that my laziness leads to shortcuts and imprecision- it is easier to lump everyone into one group- I do not begrudge a single mother raising her kids alone a monthly check and a housing voucher. I may have questions about her ongoing choices and her seemingly broken man picker, but she still needs help, and god knows the kids do, but the men who live off of those women and the woman’s voucher or her check (plus crime) are behaving despicably. The woman is enabling her man’s bad behavior, but we get to live with that.

    Decades ago, I read a study about the culture of poverty in the West Virginia/Kentucky coal mine regions. The study focused on the current culture of long term disability claims and part of the conclusion was that some of this was a carry over from mining days when men would get hurt at the mine and the mine operation would give them a penurious amount and terminate them. Once things changed and a person could get a permanent disability check, some clusters of people saw that check as the goal.

    steveg (564f71)

  122. Seventh Round:

    McCarthy 198
    Jefferies 212
    Donalds 18
    Trump 1

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  123. Present 1

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  124. I think a Balanced Budget Amendment also always sounds good…especially to this fiscal conservative, but the devil is truly in the details….

    In the face of an economic downturn, would you still favor government spending restraint?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  125. No, AJLiberty asserted that the procedural requests…like weakening the power of the Speaker….are all consistent with what the hard Left wants as well

    No, AJ Liberty made no such distinction:
    Heck, many of the “concessions” they want are the same ones that the liberal democrats want.

    And going back to a long-standing rule that limited the Speaker’s power is hardly a controversial issue.

    Factory Working Orphan (7f385d)

  126. Who is Byron Donalds, the latest McCarthy alternative?
    ………
    Mr. Donalds is a second-term House member — or would be if any House members had been sworn in. That makes him an unusual candidate for the job of speaker, which normally goes to more experienced legislators, though there is no formal requirement that a speaker have served in Congress for a certain length of time or even that they be a member.

    Mr. Donalds, 44, worked in finance before being elected to the Florida House in 2016 and then to the U.S. House in 2020. He ran for Congress as a conservative ally of then-President Donald J. Trump, and was one of 147 Republicans who voted to reject the results of the 2020 presidential election.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  127. Tim Miller

    The Republican Party attracted members who are childish, petty, desperate for fame, with no real concern for policy or the public welfare? Huh. I wonder how that happened?

    And now they go along with the ex-president that brung ’em.
    I saw Ms. Boebert on the 11th Hour last night, and all she did grandstand and avoid answering questions, such as who she wanted as Speaker.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  128. Er, won’t go along.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  129. Trump came along, released the MAGA genie, and now not even he can put it back in the bottle. The GOP is reaping what the party sowed.

    Dana (1225fc)

  130. Er, won’t go along.

    “So?’ – Daddy Darth

    2/3rd of the colonists were opposed or indifferent to breaking w/t Crown. 1/3– the “insurrectionists”– were for revolution. Guess who won.

    Storm the castle.

    DCSCA (4f5429)

  131. @133. Nah. This is boiling populism- not a MAGA Trump thing. Perot, Buchanan, Tea Party, Palin then… Trump carried the flag to a win. This has been building for half a century… these two parties must be cleansed– or disbanded as currently structured. This ‘pass the bill in order to read what’s in it’ mindset has to be stopped.

    DCSCA (4f5429)

  132. A Royalist Speaker would have long since bi*ch-slapped them.

    FIFY

    DCSCA (4f5429)

  133. Why is McCarthy suddenly “establishment”….as well as Trump and MTG apparently?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  134. What the old school pre-2016 GOPe people need is a good slogan to breath new life into the movement. Maybe something like:

    Make the GOP Great Again Together

    it’s not creative but for the GOPe that may be a feature.

    frosty (fc6b10)

  135. I frankly don’t care what happens to McCarthy. He has completely sold out to whoever he can sell out to in his efforts to become speaker and it hasn’t worked. Couldn’t happen to a more Beta guy.

    I do wonder how the Freedom Caucus malcontents think this will turn out. Last time they pulled this (on McCarthy, natch), they got Paul Ryan. Who is now one of the Emmanuel Goldsteins of MAGA-land.

    Does the FC prefer the Democrats in charge to a non-MAGA in charge? Is that preferable to McCarthy or anyone acceptable to the modrate group? Will that get them the months long government shutdown and debt crisis they apparently long for? Will that bring the hordes to storm the castle? (Which castle will they storm? Probably MAGA castle…)

    Again, unless this turns into a government shutdown and debt crisis or January 6, Part II, I really don’t care. Still, I really hate it when people play the game of politics badly. It brings disrepute on a genuinely useful art form.

    Appalled (af9f45)

  136. I think a Balanced Budget Amendment also always sounds good…especially to this fiscal conservative, but the devil is truly in the details….and those details will be hugely controversial.

    California, and many other states, have BBAs. When confronted with a deficit, they just lie about projected income and/or play Three Card Monte with expenses until it looks balanced.

    What is needed is a Spending Limitation Amendment. The government cannot (in the absence of a supermajority vote) spend more than X percent of the previous 4 years’ average GDP. This allows small, negative feedback, Keynesian fiscal policy, but avoids wild spending binges as we’ve seen of late. If absolutely necessary (e.g. wartime) you’ll get your 2/3rds, otherwise not.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  137. #133

    Freedom Caucus nonsense predates Trump. Mr Boehner will share a pot gummy, a glass of bourbon, a cigar, s spray tan, and afew tears, and them explain…

    Appalled (af9f45)

  138. They caused a deadlock over the Speaker position with actual policy demands and goals

    It’s a list of things they oppose. Show me their recommendation for immigration reform. “No more immigration” is not policy, it’s just a reaction. Defaulting on the debt is not policy, it’s insanity — right up there with fixing inflation by declaring money worthless.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  139. @137. Suddenly????

    ‘McCarthy formerly chaired the California Young Republicans and the Young Republican National Federation. He was a representative in the California State Assembly from 2002 to 2006, the last two years as minority leader. He was elected to Congress in 2006. McCarthy was elected to House leadership in his second term as Republican Chief Deputy Whip from 2009 to 2011. When Republicans took control of the House in 2011, he became majority whip from 2011 until August 2014, when he was elected majority leader to replace the outgoing Eric Cantor, who was defeated in his primary election.

    After Republicans lost the majority in the 2018 midterm elections, and Speaker Paul Ryan retired, McCarthy was elected minority leader in January 2019, making him the first California Republican to hold the post. According to the University of Minnesota’s Humphrey School of Public Affairs, McCarthy is the least-tenured majority leader in the history of the House of Representatives. When he assumed the position in July 2014, he had served only seven years, six months and 29 days, the least experience of any floor leader in the House’s history by more than a year.

    On September 28, 2015, McCarthy formally announced his candidacy for Speaker. Having held congressional office for less than nine years, McCarthy would have been the Speaker with the least time in Congress since 1891.

    In a September 29, 2015, interview with Fox News’s Sean Hannity, McCarthy was asked what Republicans had accomplished in Congress. He replied by talking about the House of Representatives’ special panel investigation into the 2012 Benghazi attack (in which Islamic militants attacked the American diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya). Republicans said the purpose of the government-funded committee was purely to investigate the deaths of four Americans. But McCarthy said, “Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was unbeatable, right? But we put together a Benghazi special committee, a select committee. What are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping. Why? Because she’s untrustable. But no one would have known any of that had happened had we not fought.” The comment was seen as an admission that the investigation was a partisan political undertaking rather than a substantive inquiry. Some commentators described his remark as a classic “Kinsley gaffe” (defined as when a politician accidentally tells the truth). The remark was also described as “saying the quiet part loud”. Several days later, McCarthy apologized for the remarks and said the Benghazi panel was not a political initiative.

    On October 8, 2015, as Republicans were preparing to vote, McCarthy unexpectedly dropped out of the race, saying that Republicans needed a fresh face who could unite the caucus and “I am not that guy.” He reportedly dropped out after concluding that he did not have the 218 votes that would be required to be elected Speaker.‘ -wikiroyalistbio.com

    “It’s Deja-vu all over again.” – Yogi Berra

    DCSCA (4f5429)

  140. The rank and file yearning for a proper b1tch-slap and leadership being unable to supply it does seem to be a symptom of the dysfunctional relationship within the GOPe.

    90% of the members are for one thing. 10% are for not that thing, but offer no credible alternative. And it’s the 90% that are dysfunctional?

    Mom, dad and the older kids want pizza. Baby screams and screams for candy for dinner. Obviously, the rest of the family is dysfunctional.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  141. McCarthy is set to lose Round 8. AllahNick may be right. McCarthy has superhuman tolerance, for humiliation.
    Maybe the House should take a breather from voting until (1) McCarthy gets his sh-t together and whips 218 votes or (2) the House GOP coalesces around another candidate.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  142. More evidence that McCarthy is a weak sister, and more evidence that the HFC is a fifth column.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/5/2023 @ 9:27 am

    Kevin,

    This is more of the same ugliness you walked back over Covid. Think you might see otherwise since all tye House Freedom Caucus is trying to do is make Republicans honor their word and campaign platforms.

    NJRob (273bf6)

  143. I do wonder how the Freedom Caucus malcontents think this will turn out. Last time they pulled this (on McCarthy, natch), they got Paul Ryan. Who is now one of the Emmanuel Goldsteins of MAGA-land.

    Then they blocked everything that Ryan wanted to do, allowing only a pretty flawed “tax cut” that mostly benefited Democrat voters and raised taxes on much of the middle class by eliminating their largest tax deduction (other taxes).

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  144. NJRob,

    The HFC has been sabotaging the GOP in Congress since Trump took office. For them, the best is worth scuttling the good.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  145. 139,

    I think there are members of both groups that would be, at least, OK with a D in charge.

    The GOPe seems to prefer being in the minority. And if the FC really is just about tearing things down they get to blame both D’s and the GOPe’s. If being in the minority works for the GOPe how wouldn’t it work better to be in the minority within a minority?

    frosty (fc6b10)

  146. #147

    They certainly could do that to McCarthy, withut the stupid drama.

    Appalled (af9f45)

  147. I think the time to whip votes needed was *before* official voting began.

    Even if McCarthy steps down, exactly who does the HFC want to nominate, and what makes them think the rest of the members will support that candidate? Clearly, the majority of members still favor McCarthy, for better or worse.

    Dana (1225fc)

  148. #149

    The average congress critter of the e-persuasion would prefer his party being in charge because that increases the opportunity for getting contributions and doling out patronage and favors. He/she plays nice with Democrats because that increases the opportunities for doling out patronage and favors and keeps him away from the firing line of CNN,NYT MSNBC.

    The freedom caucus group — I honestly cannot figure the endgame beyond a belief they will be able to rule the ruins. I don’t see how you go to the good people of your redder than red district and brag about how you helped hand the house to the Democrats even better than the establishment Republicans did.

    But maybe they have an explanation ready.

    Appalled (af9f45)

  149. For example, when Obamacare was savaging families who had their private insurance taken away (and forcing them to pay triple to subsidize the needs of the never-insured), the HFC blocked all changes to Obamacare that stopped the financial destruction of the self-employed and which allowed them to buy insurance again.

    They wanted repeal, and only repeal. Never mind that many families could no longer qualify again for private insurance that was no longer grandfathered in (people get sick over time). In any event, they didn’t get repeal and Obamacare went on as usual, with many productive families priced out of a market that was free to any deadbeat.

    Now they want impossible things and are going to hold their breath, and everyone else’s, until they get it (and they won’t).

    Personally, I think they prefer wrecking to governing.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  150. “No more immigration” is not policy, it’s just a reaction.

    It’s a policy. Not one I agree with and clearly not one you agree with but it’s a policy.

    Defaulting on the debt is not policy, it’s insanity

    Same. Labeling it doesn’t change it.

    right up there with fixing inflation by declaring money worthless

    Also, a bad policy. Have you seen this sort of labeling to be effective?

    frosty (bc9af7)

  151. I think many of the objectors just don’t like McCarthy….for whatever reason. Would Steve Scalise fare any better? What are the objectors willing to give up to get a different name? Will a new person be as willing to deal as McCarthy? I guess we will see what is/was most important.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  152. The Democrats seem to be enjoying this.

    the commenters here seem to be enjoying it as well

    what a coincidence!!

    JF (6d40a1)

  153. don’t see how you go to the good people of your redder than red district and brag about how you helped hand the house to the Democrats even better than the establishment Republicans did.

    But maybe they have an explanation ready.

    Appalled (af9f45) — 1/5/2023 @ 12:12 pm

    That’s not that hard:

    Good people who are redder than red. You elected me to go into the swamp and fight for you. You wanted X and you wanted Y and you made it clear that you were tired of your elected officials surrendering to people pushing agenda A and B. I did exactly what you asked and do you know what happened? The same people that have been fighting for a chance to stab you in the back and take more of your money to give it to their friends used every dirty trick in the book to stab us in the back. But I’m here to tell you I’m still standing and if you’re still standing with me we will show those swamp scum that we have only begun to fight.

    It’s not that hard. The trick is saying that with some sort of credibility. You don’t have to go all in on the f’ing insanity to pull it off but any whiff of the old school GOPe “wink-wink say no more” stuff sinks it.

    frosty (bc9af7)

  154. @ 139. I do wonder how the Freedom Caucus malcontents think this will turn out.

    Ask another malcontent-minded, insurgent type-insurrectionist:

    “We Must All Hang Together, or Most Assuredly, We Will All Hang Separately” Benjamin Franklin, 1776

    DCSCA (f8dc23)

  155. AJ_Liberty (4aef39) — 1/5/2023 @ 4:48 am

    Heck, many of the “concessions” they want are the same ones that the liberal democrats want. It’s posturing for fund raising.

    Factory Working Orphan (bce27d) — 1/5/2023 @ 6:19 am

    This doesn’t even pass the laugh test. Liberal democrats want a balanced budget, passage of the Fair Tax Act, a crack down on illegal immigration, and Congressional term limits?

    The “concessions they are seeking (they are in fact seeking nothing in particular, but McCarthy was offering some things that had been mentioned) would be procedural. The biggest one they are being promised is not another giant omnibus bill.

    But I don’t know what would be also in a liberal democratic list. McCarthy and the holdouts are agreed on (or McCarthy long ago agreed to eliminating proxy voting, increasing the minimum time between a bill’s introduction and its floor debate, and scoring legislation’s effect on inflation are not ideas that come from Democrats.

    Maybe some things that weaken the power of the Speaker or allow more proposalsto be brought to a vote?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  156. “We Must All Hang Together, or Most Assuredly, We Will All Hang Separately” Benjamin Franklin, 1776

    Benjamin Franklin was trying to take the sting out of what had just been said! Someone had just loudly proclaimed that we must all hang together,

    Except that the whole story may be apocryphal.

    https://professorbuzzkill.com/ben-franklin-we-must-all-hang-together-or-all-hang-separately-quote-or-no-quote

    ….The story is that, at the signing of the Declaration of Independence in Philadelphia in 1776, Franklin warned his fellow patriots that, “we must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.” This quote seems to fit in with the Franklin epigrammatic style, and colonial unity _was_ a serious problem when the Declaration was signed. There was disagreement among the colonists about whether and how to overturn British rule and establish a new country. Whoever said this, therefore, was not cracking a joke. Disunity was a major concern.

    Lots of experts have examined the “we must all hang together” quote. Unlike many of Franklin’s other quotations, there is no solid evidence that he said it at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. It’s also very unlikely to have originated with him. But the story of how it became attributed to him tells us a lot about how famous sentiments have been put into the mouths of even more famous people over time.

    You see, other Franklin-isms, such as “a republic, if you can keep it” (said by him in a response to a question about what type of government was to come out of the writing of the U.S. Constitution in 1787) were written down by witnesses or friends at the time. Historians and quote specialists are very comfortable with the veracity of those attributions.

    Alas, Franklin’s name didn’t get attached to the “we must all hang together” quote until 1840, when it appeared in a ten-volume compendium of Franklin’s writings by Jared Sparks. As is often the case, Sparks gave no source citation for this quote.

    The “hang alone or hang together” saying has been traced in print to John Dryden’s 1717 book, The Spanish Fryar, where it is referred to as a “Flemish proverb.” (Ben Franklin was 11 years old in 1717.) And given that it is listed as a “proverb,” it probably pre-dates 1717.

    [Notes: The signing of the declaration of Independence was not a mass ceremonial event – I read it in terms of a speech given during the deliberations. But Benjamin Franklin read a lot of books and not all were printed by his brother. There’s no problem with him reading a book printed in 1717. Mark Twain read a lot too during his apprenticeship]

    But now I’ll bring the discussion back to the American continent. In a letter to his uncle dated 14 April 1776, Carter Braxton (a Virginia moderate who was a member of the Continental Congress) said of the atmosphere of the Congress’s deliberations, “a true saying of a Wit – We must hang together or separately.” That letter, of course, was written almost three months before the signing of the Declaration of Independence, and the tone indicates that it was an old witticism.

    The sentiment appears frequently in early 19th century literature, but it was always attributed to someone other than Franklin. In 1801, “If we don’t hang together, by Heavens we shall hang separately” was part of an English play, “Life,” written by Frederic Reynolds.” In his, “Memoirs of a Life, Chiefly Passed in Pennsylvania” (1811), Alexander Graydon attributed the saying to Richard Penn, the grandson of William Penn. And then, by 1840 and Jared Sparks’ volumes, it was attached to Benjamin Franklin.

    This is an extremely common trajectory for quotations, and my Buzzkill answer is that the following is what probably happened.

    “We must all hang together or we will all hang separately” has probably been around since the 1650s or so (as an old Flemish proverb). It was well-enough known in 1776 to be regularly trotted out in times of crisis, and when the need for unity was at a high point. That’s why Carter Braxton referred to it in his letter in April of that year. And it may have indeed been said by any number of people in the summer of 1776, especially in Philadelphia around the time the Declaration was debated, approved, signed, and printed. There’s just no good evidence that Franklin ever said it. Perhaps it was already a cliché by then and, therefore, beneath someone of his wit and intellect to utter.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  157. The Democrats seem to be enjoying this.

    Not their problem.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  158. 145. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 1/5/2023 @ 11:57 am

    Maybe the House should take a breather from voting until (1) McCarthy gets his sh-t together and whips 218 votes or (2) the House GOP coalesces around another candidate.

    They can’t take a breather except by recessing, or electing an interim Speaker

    What I don’t understand is how any of the members can vote or how they can do anything, even vote for Speaker, before being sworn in.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  159. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/5/2023 @ 1:08 pm

    Not their problem.

    In a couple of weeks it will become their problem.

    But this is like a pre-1968 or pre-1952 presidential nominating convention. It can’t go on more than about two weeks.

    Till they get a Speaker and what follows, new members can’t hire staff, and there are no committees and none of them have any security clearances, unless given them courtesy of the president.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  160. 153,

    The GOPe always has a new and novel reason for why they can’t do the things people elect them to do. Or things that are fiscally conservative. Or things that are socially conservative. Or things that don’t diverge in only the smallest of details from what De wants to do.

    But the new and novel reasons always works out to be the same old reason. The GOPe has been playing the “go along with us or everything blows up game” long before the FC was a thing. At some point the bluff will be called.

    frosty (bc9af7)

  161. #157

    It’s not that hard. The trick is saying that with some sort of credibility.

    You never go broke overestimating a politician’s shamelessness. Still, the attack ads when Mr. Freedom Caucus gets primaried by the super-secret CocaineMitchPac write themselves.

    “Sure, Rep Caucus says he had a 100% voting record against Pelosi. Except when it mattered, he was there doing San Fran Nan’s bidding.”

    Curious what you think, Frosty, on what the FC is up to here. For? Against? Munching the popcorn and laughing at the show?

    Appalled (af9f45)

  162. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/5/2023 @ 1:08 pm

    Not their problem.

    In a couple of weeks it will become their problem.

    But this is like a pre-1968 or pre-1952 presidential nominating convention. It can’t go on more than about two weeks.

    Till they get a Speaker and what follows, new members can’t hire staff, and there are no committees and none of them have any security clearances, unless given them courtesy of the president.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 1/5/2023 @ 1:14 pm

    It would be the kiss of death for any Republican to win with Democratic votes.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  163. @108

    We have term limits. They are called elections.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/5/2023 @ 9:11 am

    Exactly this.

    I hope this demand to vote on term limit isn’t part of “the hill do die on” folks…

    whembly (ea5e48)

  164. DCSCA —

    I don’t think there is a Ben Franklin in this bunch. Even if there were, they would need a George Washington.

    Appalled (af9f45)

  165. https://www.mediaite.com/politics/breaking-kevin-mccarthy-loses-house-speaker-bid-on-seventh-ballot

    UPDATE: McCarthy has now lost both the seventh, eighth and ninth votes in his bid for Speaker of the House.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/01/04/us/politics/house-speaker-vote-tally.html

    It’s holding at 158 169 no 170 for McCarthy, 16 for Donalds, 181 for Jeffries and 3 for Hern (a new name)

    It’s now 179 and 199. 182 and 201.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  166. Till they get a Speaker and what follows, new members can’t hire staff, and there are no committees and none of them have any security clearances, unless given them courtesy of the president.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 1/5/2023 @ 1:14 pm

    Still not the Democrats problem. They are in the minority. They don’t run the train.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  167. McCarthy can easily give them a vote on a term limits amendment. It won’t get the 2/3 needed in either House.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  168. 198 – 17 – 210 -3

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  169. McCarthy hit 200. Jeffries 212 Donalds 17 Hern 3

    present 1

    IO think that adds up to 433. Somebody’s absent?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  170. https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/house-speaker-vote-kevin-mccarthy-gop/card/-never-kevin-detractors-find-a-new-kevin-who-is-kevin-hern–yQINS5ial2rOyvYTeFJo

    So far, he’s received two votes, from Lauren Boebert of Colorado and Josh Brecheen, a freshman from Oklahoma.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  171. We’ll see if they are going to change the rules now.

    Dana (1225fc)

  172. This is a problem the GOP has brought on itself. We can all see from the actions the party has taken that they didn’t really believe most of the their own talking points (and maybe knew that many of those talking points weren’t actually functional) and now they have enough people who’ve been elected who do believe the talking points and believe they are functional to cause them problems.

    Nic (896fdf)

  173. If you can’t win with the rules, change the rules to win.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  174. Dana, I have a comment in moderation but I can’t tell why- no links, no bad words.

    Nic (896fdf)

  175. McCarthy’s lament:

    I’m going down, down, down

    I’m going down, down, down

    I’m going down, down, down……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  176. # 178

    First performed at Mar-A-Lago in January, 2021.

    Appalled (b8a4db)

  177. 165,

    I honestly have no idea and I don’t think they do either. The best I can do is find my own popcorn, laugh, and try to keep the doom monster away. And opine.

    The uni-party talking points, the GOPe/De convergence, etc. are easy to fling from one side and easy to dismiss from the other. But they are clues to real underlying issues. But I don’t think there’s a constructive way to discuss this.

    So, there are a couple of things this reminds me of. There is a quip that things that can’t go on won’t. There is another from Sun Tzu, when you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard. This situation is the result of pretending the first one isn’t true and ignoring the different ways the second one can play out. The GOPe can’t return to business as usual but I think that’s what McCarthy represents. The point of the Sun Tzu quote is that you should let an enemy think they have an out when in fact the out is a trap. The idea being that a trapped enemy that hasn’t broken will fight harder than one that has. But the fake escape route doesn’t work when it’s not convincing. It’s better to stand and fight than run and die tired.

    Tilting at windmills and pyrrhic victories are in great works of fiction for a reason.

    frosty (bc9af7)

  178. Fished them out, nic. Don’t know why they went into moderation.

    Dana (1225fc)

  179. From another comment thread…

    Hang in there Kevin.
    Susan Lucci was nominated 19 times before she finally won…

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  180. Thanks!

    Nic (896fdf)

  181. 165,

    For? Against? Munching the popcorn and laughing at the show?

    I misread this the first time, or maybe this time, we’ll see.

    I see a lot of this as the inevitable result of a long series of actions. That makes it hard for me to be against it in the sense that I think you mean. I think the underlying conflict that this is a symptom of needs to be resolved. It would have been better to resolve it earlier when that was easier. We didn’t do that. That leaves now or later. It would be better to resolve it now rather than ignore it and let it fester. Things don’t get better by pushing it to later.

    frosty (bc9af7)

  182. I keep saying it: Bring Back Boehner. Just don’t forget to time the edibles.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  183. @169. I don’t think there is a Ben Franklin in this bunch. Even if there were, they would need a George Washington.

    … mused Cornwallis over morning tea at Yorktown. 😉

    DCSCA (6fd815)

  184. #186

    OK. Thanks for your answer. We will see how it plays out. As you know, I am not a MAGA guy so I doubt the result of this will give me someone who makes me happy. But I am profoundly curious how this turns out.

    Appalled (af9f45)

  185. Hm. Think this is more Cold Harbor than Yorktown.

    Appalled (af9f45)

  186. I keep reading about something called “GOPe.” There is no “GOPe.” There is only the GOP. Those that suggest otherwise are engaging in Us vs Them, which has no place inside a political party. It should only be “Us.”

    Now, who IS the GOP? Is it the 90% or the 10%? I think that’s pretty clear, too. I don’t know what those 20 members are thinking, but what they are doing is throwing a public tantrum, embarrassing themselves and their party. In public.

    They should choose what they want to be, members of the GOP, or something else.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  187. “We Must All Hang Together, or Most Assuredly, We Will All Hang Separately” Benjamin Franklin, 1776

    And yet, this is exactly what they are not doing, as their opposition is measuring the wood for their gallows.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  188. Neither of these responses refutes the fact that these policies had decades-long support by mainstream Republican politicians, nor proves that they are actually liberal policies, as AJ asserted.

    And none of this suggests that the HFC is part of the Republican Party.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  189. Also, a bad policy. Have you seen this sort of labeling to be effective?

    No. Policies are proactive. These are simply reactions to stimuli, like you sometimes see in the brain-dead.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  190. We’ll see if they are going to change the rules now.

    If they change it to a plurality, I’m betting on Jeffries.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  191. McCarthy loses in the 10th Round:

    McCarthy 200

    Jeffries 212

    Donalds 13

    Hern 7

    Present 1

    It’s odd that some of the House rebels have voted for Hern as he has consistently supported McCarthy. I guess it is personal. Hern did not vote in round 10.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  192. @192. 2/3rd of the colonists were opposed or indifferent to breaking w/t Crown. 1/3– the “insurrectionists”– were for revolution.

    In the end, guess who won; wasn’t the Royalists.

    DCSCA (dfa09c)

  193. Insurrectionist in the street, insurrectionist between the sheets.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  194. McCarthy was a fool to think that making all the concessions he has would get him the votes. He, of all people, should have known not to trust them. Nobody eats their own like today’s modern GOP.

    Dana (1225fc)

  195. #174 Sammy – Donald McEachin, Virginia Democrat died in late November, and has not been replaced; Ken Buck, Colorado Republican has gone back to Colorado for a planned medical procedure.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  196. The number needed to win became 217 with the two missing votes – Ken Buck missing still leaves it at 217.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  197. As our host recently said on Twitter:

    The fact that a cretin like Gaetz can win elections and Kinzinger cannot tells you all you need to know about grassroots Republican voters.

    That’s the political reality McCarthy is contending with. Of course, having repeatedly and shamelessly debased himself to its spiritual figurehead, he’s as responsible for it as he is its victim. It’s the ultimate case of, “I never thought leopards would eat MY face, sobs the wannabe Speaker who pandered to the Leopards Eating People’s Faces Caucus.”

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  198. Dana (1225fc) — 1/5/2023 @ 3:17 pm

    McCarthy was a fool to think that making all the concessions he has would get him the votes. He, of all people, should have known not to trust them.

    He knew, by the time of the first ballot he would lose it – he knew by the time of the second ballot that Jim Jordan would be their heretofore secret alternative and he had Jordan make a speech and nominate him, but the total number of defections was surprise.

    They’re driving down his total, hoping, let’s say if they can get him down to 137, no 180, it’ll start to break, That’s the strategy, but how they can come out on top is another question.

    If ten more Republicans don’t vote, and all living Democrats vote for Jeffreies, Jeffries, with 212, will have a majority of the 423 present and voting

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  199. If ten more Republicans don’t vote, and all living Democrats vote for Jeffreies, Jeffries, with 212, will have a majority of the 423 present and voting

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 1/5/2023 @ 3:50 pm

    Short of screwing up their arithmetic, which I don’t entirely rule out, I’d bet big against either GOP faction allowing that to happen.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  200. The fact that a cretin like Gaetz can win elections and Kinzinger cannot tells you all you need to know about grassroots Republican voters.

    Kinzinger’s district was destroyed by Illinois Democrats with reapportionment.

    https://www.courthousenews.com/house-republican-calls-it-quits-after-approval-of-new-illinois-districts.

    Still, he had a different population base. A better comparison is between Matt Gaetz and Liz Cheney.

    Republicans in heavily Republican districts are in a bubble, and Liz Cheney was no counter-arguer.

    When you have two sides loudly disputing, chances are any point of view that is not exactly the same has a hard time getting heard and she needed not to echo or sound like she was echoing what was being said by Democratic partisans because it wasn’t accurate and could be seen not to be so.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  201. lurker (cd7cd4) — 1/5/2023 @ 3:56 pm

    Short of screwing up their arithmetic, which I don’t entirely rule out, I’d bet big against either GOP faction allowing that to happen.

    That’s why those who don’t want to vote for McCarthy, or the latest alternative candidate, have to vote for somebody. A name. Any name will do, to avoid reducing the number needed to win, but not an abstention.

    In fact I think here Donalds is “somebody” He’s not a serious candidate, and even said so.

    He really is a prop, (a placeholder actually) but of course, he’s not supporting white supremacy.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  202. Nic (896fdf) — 1/5/2023 @ 1:40 pm

    We can all see from the actions the party has taken that they didn’t really believe most of the their own talking points (and maybe knew that many of those talking points weren’t actually functional)

    They still don’t have possible to accomplish and reasonable talking points

    and now they have enough people who’ve been elected who do believe the talking points and believe they are functional to cause them problems.

    No, they have constituents who believe them.

    Cutting the federal budget deficit and cutting greenhouse gas emissions have the same problem. But the Democrats have more success in passing unrealistic laws and leaving the resulting problems to be something for other people to solve, maybe in the other party who can be attacked for it.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  203. All this, by the way, has exposed the “Problem solvers caucus” as fatuous.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  204. The Freedom caucus rebels were somehow impressed themselves with the idea that by supporting somebody black they’d have a talking point.

    Besides, they gained one more defection.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  205. I blame The American Lung Association.

    nk (525c38)

  206. The House is now casting its eleventh vote to name a speaker.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/01/04/us/politics/house-speaker-vote-tally.html

    Jan. 5, 2023, 7:12 p.m. ET4 minutes ago
    4 minutes ago
    Annie KarniReporting from the Capitol

    Representative-elect Daniel Goldman of New York signals that Democrats, again, are not going to help the Republicans adjourn tonight. “We are prepared to stay on the House floor as long as it takes to determine a speaker so that we can begin to work for the American people,” he tweeted. “Republicans’ goal today is another adjournment to avoid doing that work.”

    What are the Democrats trying to do? They are against adjournment.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  207. nk @210. ??

    American Lung Association

    Oh – No smoke filled room.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  208. Matt Gaetz by the way, nominated Donald Trump. Will he vote for him this time?

    Yes! There’s one vote for Donald Trump in this ballot. Horn 7, Donalds 11 so far.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  209. Now calling the names of those those who did not answer the first call of the roll.

    Most of the laggards are Republicans, so McCarthy is picking up votes.

    McCarthy: 200

    Donalds: 12

    Hern: 7

    Trump: 1

    Jeffries: 212

    Present: 1

    If any did not vote they may come to the well and vote there

    Still 220+212 = 232 votes 217 needed to win.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  210. What are the Democrats trying to do? They are against adjournment.

    They’re enjoying the show.

    I read once, in a book so it must be true, that down South country folk would cut the blades of their Barlow knives down to about an inch without a point, and then they would engage in knife fights, inflicting cuts on each other but with little danger of a fatal stab. This is the Millennial version of that, I guess.

    nk (525c38)

  211. McCarthy loses the 11th Round:

    McCarthy 200

    Jeffries 212

    Donalds 12

    Trump 1

    Hern 7

    Present 1

    McCarthy has set a new record; the most votes for Speaker since 1859.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  212. McCarthy is still negotiating. (or Jim Jordan, for McCarthy, is negotiating with Chip Roy, of Texas, for his opponents)

    No smoke filled room, but in secret. They have to go in and out to consult with their side. Boebert is areal holdout.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  213. The Democratic strategy must be to hope that some Republicans go home to sleep and can’t be summoned back in time.

    The Republican side of the House is mostly empty

    Jan. 5, 2023, 7:26 p.m. ET16 minutes ago
    16 minutes ago
    Michael GoldReporting from the Capitol

    The Republican side of the House chamber is exceptionally empty right now, with more unfilled seats than I’ve seen at any moment this week, except during the hours-long adjournment on Wednesday.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  214. Will they meet again on Friday, or adjourn till Monday? If they adjourn.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  215. 216. He broke the 9 ballot total from 1923.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  216. What are the Democrats trying to do? They are against adjournment.

    Forcing the issue. Like the Senate vote-a-ramas, they want the House to stay in session until a Speaker is elected.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  217. The last time the election for speaker took more than a single ballot, in 1923, the ninth contest was decisive — making this the longest House speaker election since 1859. ……..

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  218. Kevin McCarthy takes boastful pride reminding voters he holds the record for the longest speech on the floor of the House of Representatives after speaking for more than eight hours.

    Doesn’t the azzhole realize this kind of crap is exactly what waters the tree of populism?

    Storm the castle.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  219. The fact that a cretin like Gaetz can win elections and Kinzinger cannot tells you all you need to know about grassroots Republican voters.

    Kinzinger speaks about principles. Gaetz uses froth and emotion. Democracy is an ugly process, resting on the idea that the average person has wisdom.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  220. @225. Kinzinger is an ass; he now works for CNN; that tells you more.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  221. House Speaker Votes (Final Ballot, Elected After 10 Ballots or more):

    23rd Congress (1833–1835) BELL, John 10th
    26th Congress (1839–1841) HUNTER, Robert 11th
    17th Congress (1821–1823) BARBOUR, Philip Pendleton 12th
    16th Congress (1819–1821) TAYLOR, John W. 22nd
    36th Congress (1859–1861) PENNINGTON, William 44th
    31st Congress (1849–1851) COBB, Howell 63rd
    34th Congress (1855–1857) BANKS, Nathaniel Prentice 133rd

    118th Congress (2023-2025) MCCARTHY, Kevin ?


    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  222. What are the Democrats trying to do? They are against adjournment.

    Why should they adjourn? They haven’t the most basic duty of a new Congress.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  223. @228-

    They haven’t the accomplished most basic duty of a new Congress.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  224. Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/5/2023 @ 2:44 pm

    The kids these days don’t hear so well. I blame the ear buds and the music. If you want them to get off your lawn you have to yell louder. They also respond to cane shaking. If you don’t have one get one. You’ll see at least a 20% increase in lawn clearance effectiveness.

    frosty (dbf3b6)

  225. As I said, froth.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  226. Why should they adjourn? They haven’t [accomplished] the most basic duty of a new Congress.

    The Royalist Pantry is out of Grey Poupon.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  227. I’m actually quite pleased with this, if they are arguing over who will be Speaker then they aren’t doing something actually dangerous. For the same reason I am always quite pleased to read about bridge-naming bills and the like.

    Soronel Haetir (f59799)

  228. “Republicans are hungry for meat-and-potato conservative results from the new majority in Washington like Republican governors are already delivering, but all they’re getting is a handful of mixed nuts.” — Larry Hogan

    nk (525c38)

  229. Sorry, Governor Hogan, that was inevitable even without this special feature after the mid-term debacle.

    nk (525c38)

  230. In a sane world, McCarthy and Jeffries would get together and give the job to Hogan or someone like him. They’d have to believe that’s preferable to anyone the bomb throwers find acceptable. Yet it will never happen because both sides would be punished by their idiotic bases.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  231. An interesting result with how these things play out is getting to see how people respond. Do you think anyone in Crenshaw’s office even knows what it means to jump the shark?

    frosty (99acca)

  232. So, uh, Crenshaw has jumped the shark but Boebert-Gaetz haven’t?

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  233. “Gridlock, for lack of a better word, is good. Gridlock works.” – apologies to Gordon Gekko

    Horatio (a79775)

  234. AllahNick on the Game Show Wing of the GOP…

    Of all the instances of enablers struggling to cope with what they’ve wrought, though, none is more enjoyable than Fox News’ longest-serving host complaining that Republican politics has become a “game show.”

    Boebert: Maybe I should nominate Donald J. Trump tomorrow.
    Hannity: Is this a game show?

    “Is this a game show?” said a peeved Bob Barker to The Price Is Right contestant.

    The current leader of the party was literally a game-show host before entering politics yet was eagerly endorsed for president in 2016 by his good friend Sean Hannity. Hannity’s preferred candidate for Pennsylvania’s open Senate seat last year was likewise a longtime television personality who’s been known to host game shows from time to time.

    The biggest name on the populist vaudeville circuit nowadays happens to be a former TV star who lately has immersed herself fully in make-believe.

    Kari Lake is now calling herself, “the real governor, the duly-elected governor” of Arizona.

    Grassroots politics and the “infotainment” media complex that serves it has been a game show for years, and Hannity is one of its most prominent emcees. The game is to see who can perform contempt for populism’s enemies most effectively, whether through rhetorical skill or sheer pugnaciousness. The prizes are political clout, fundraising hauls from activists blissed out on rage, and attention, attention, attention.

    “The problem any GOP leader faces today is that too many Republicans don’t really want to hold and keep political power,” the Wall Street Journal claimed astutely in an editorial about McCarthy’s ordeal. “They’re much more comfortable in opposition in the minority, which is easier because no hard decisions or compromises are necessary. You can rage against ‘the swamp’ without having to do anything to change it.” As if to prove their point, Lauren Boebert said in an interview on Wednesday night that she’d have trouble supporting anyone in the current House Republican leadership, not just McCarthy.

    The biggest game show in the conservative world, the one you really want to be on, is Sean Hannity’s Fox News. They’ve been the true “establishment” in the Republican Party for many years, although I doubt they ever expected to be viewed that way by the populists they cultivated. All you need to know about the incentives of the party’s “game-show wing” is that Boebert was rewarded for her obstruction of McCarthy on Wednesday night with the grand prize, an appearance in Fox prime time to inveigh against her “establishment” enemies.

    Boebert may or may not be reelected in 2024; she came tantalizingly close to being upset in November. But if she loses, she’ll be a mainstay on the vaudeville circuit for years. Already, having just completed a single term as a member of Congress, she must be among the top 5 percent of representatives most recognizable to grassroots Republicans.

    Winning the game show doesn’t require winning elections. To the contrary, as Trump and Lake have proved.

    I see three possibilities:
    (1) McCarthy drops his drawers all the way down to his ankles and ekes out 218 votes,
    (2) McCarthy bows out and the caucus coalesces around Scalise (I don’t see a better or more viable candidate),
    (3) A complete backfire on the NeverKevin 20…

    The Sorkinesque ending would be for a group of Republican moderates to trump the “game-show” wing by making a deal with Democrats to elect a centrist Republican speaker. In theory, it could happen: No fewer than 18 House Republicans represent districts won by Joe Biden in 2020, giving them an electoral incentive to play nice with the other party. But there’s a reason Sorkinesque endings never happen in real life. In real life, any Republican who made common cause with the left to place a “RINO” in charge of the House would be primaried into oblivion and McCarthy’s opponents know it. One very lamentable outcome of the endless game-show-ification of GOP politics is that the modern Republican “audience” wants to see its representatives play the game. Any candidate who demonstrates more contempt for populist Republicans than for Democrats is at risk of disqualification, even if they’re acting in good faith for the country’s benefit. That’s why eight of the 10 Republicans who voted to impeach Trump in 2021 are now out of politics.

    Doing the math, it would take all 213 Democrats plus five Republicans who are willing to risk their careers (sorta like the ten who voted to impeach Trump in 2021) to pick someone like Fred Upton, or my preference, Liz Cheney.

    I won’t place odds on the three options, but I’m guessing #3 is least likely.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  235. AllahNick has been nailing it of late. I see this melodrama as just one more act in the demise of the GOP. Some will claim: finally, they are fighting for something. But the problem is that 10% of the dog is trying to wag the tail. And if this is any indication of how the drama will play out the next two years, I anticipate a lot of performance and very little progress on the issues that are purportedly driving this. Some in the opposition actually want to default on the debt…whatever the consequence. For some this is their opportunity to finally be on the Showcase Showdown. I wonder where they learned to be such drama queens.

    I can’t see how McCarthy survives. In the world of give and take, I just haven’t seen any “take” yet. It’s a hostage crisis where no hostages have been released. The bigger question is does the next-McCarthy inherit all of his promises. What’s the end game if this just continues on…ad infinitum. Gridlock is one thing, but the debt limit is approaching and doesn’t care about who is winning.

    I think much of America would just like 20 moderates from one side of the other….to just make the deal and freeze out the hostage takers. Some would rightly say, what’s in it for Democrats? Showing who can govern….showing who will do what’s best for the country….showing that the institution cannot be bullied by 5% of its members. I’m sympathetic about taking a stand on debt and a legislative process that is unresponsive. But part of taking this on is building this discussion and building consensus. You must persuade, not hijack. At some point people sympathetic with some of the demands just lose patience with the means.

    Hopefully McCarthy’s head will be enough and Scalise can get the job. At some point, it just stops being amusing and profitable….

    AJ_Liberty (b612c7)

  236. Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 1/6/2023 @ 5:17 am

    You put a question mark in there but … ah, I just noticed the implied whatabout.

    frosty (99acca)

  237. Are they allowed to be paid (perks and expense accounts, too) if they have not been sworn in?

    nk (658f2c)

  238. Are they allowed to park in the Capitol lot?

    nk (658f2c)

  239. I think much of America would just like 20 moderates from one side of the other

    Just over 4 min in to this 14 min explainer you get an answer as to why “much of America” resolves issues from a positron of naivete:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THuPiL_L9BU

    BuDuh (0afa5a)

  240. ….position of naivite.

    BuDuh (0afa5a)

  241. I am loosing a battle with the spellchecker, but the point remains.

    BuDuh (0afa5a)

  242. General observation, which the FC sorts don’t get. The American public does appreciate a good show. But they weary of melodrama, and they absolutely hate it when the House or Senate bring the entire government to a halt because they are having one of their conniption fits.

    If Congress wants to entirely lose the power of the purse — this is how it happens. The people lose their patience and suddenly Biden gets to mint trillion dollar coins.

    Appalled (e0810f)

  243. After putting us through six years of NeverTrump nonsense, one week of NeverKevin is just too much for AllahAnonNick to handle.

    JF (f4ab60)

  244. Kinzinger speaks about principles. Gaetz uses froth and emotion. Democracy is an ugly process, resting on the idea that the average person has wisdom.
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/5/2023 @ 4:57 pm

    Kinzinger’s principles included voting for Biden’s boondoggle and countless other leftist priorities, and this doesn’t even include impeachment. He was rewarded by having his district eliminated. Republican voters had zilch to do with it.

    And it looks like the right thinking principled true conservatives are pretty much done with the whole first 200 names in the Boston phonebook thing, which once was a bedrock conservative principle. It’s Harvard faculty lounge all the way, baby.

    JF (f4ab60)

  245. I like how Trump shot his wad with his ineffectual endorsement of McCarthy on Wednesday, and claimed victory on Thursday.

    That’s our Trump!

    nk (658f2c)

  246. nk (658f2c) — 1/6/2023 @ 8:54 am

    the hero-worship-cult-of-personality-trump-loving narrative seems to be falling apart

    I’m there’s already another one being put through focus groups

    JF (f4ab60)

  247. Steve Scalise should be an attractive candidate for House Republican rebels since he is also aan election denier. All but two of the rebels are election deniers.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  248. Donalds is also a denier, which is possibly why he has been nominated.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  249. the hero-worship-cult-of-personality-trump-loving narrative seems to be falling apart

    Ha, ha! “Nobody ever really supported Trump. It was all a leftist, neocon, RINO narrative.” Snorfle!

    nk (658f2c)

  250. You know, it could be true. Trump did not say: But you still like me, right?” He only said: “But you like me, right?”

    nk (658f2c)

  251. You put a question mark in there but … ah, I just noticed the implied whatabout.

    Non-responsive.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  252. I said it a few months back, JF, regarding Dr. Oz’s run in Pennsylvania. “Trump is like a tram. You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off.”

    But this orange tram is still tooting its horn.

    nk (658f2c)

  253. Non-responsive.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 1/6/2023 @ 9:27 am

    What’s your expected response for a whatabout? Was I supposed to defend whoever you whatabouted?

    frosty (bc9af7)

  254. BuDuh (0afa5a) — 1/6/2023 @ 8:06 am

    Matt Rosendale is one of the 147 fascists who sought to overturn popular votes in state elections.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  255. What’s your expected response for a whatabout?

    Call it what you want, it’s still non-responsive.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  256. Kinzinger’s principles: he has been hired by CNN now.

    DCSCA (1134cb)

  257. Paul, why did you expect a substantive response?

    Time123 (97f6c3)

  258. @241. Six have flipped– and counting… on this vote. Selling his soul for personal ambition to eek out the gig, makes him weak and easy for his side of the aisle to roll.

    The ‘Lt. Norman Dike’ of the GOP.

    DCSCA (1134cb)

  259. I don’t thing the GOP has enough common purpose to pull together their slim majority easily. There are too many fringe representatives whose primary goal is performative.

    Time123 (97f6c3)

  260. #265

    Which is the best possible result for the FC and kudos for their negotiating skills. They read their beta male properly and will keep him cowed all term long. They need McCarthy to be speaker more than the rest of the GOP caucus because they can pull is string. Shows they learned something from the Paul Ryan episode.

    It won’t work on the debt ceiling collision but maybe they know that already.

    Appalled (429ae1)

  261. (Does this conflict with what I said earlier? It does, but I thought they wouldn’t negotiate)

    Appalled (429ae1)

  262. @267. Remember the fate of Norman Dike.

    DCSCA (1134cb)

  263. Still not enough to put him over yet. Needs 217 today- only 213. Apparently 9 flipped.

    Some member should demand all the loose change in his pocket, too. 😉

    DCSCA (1134cb)

  264. McCarthy loses the 12th Round:

    McCarthy 213

    Jeffries 211

    Jordan 4

    Hern 3

    In the latest vote, 14 House rebels flipped their support in favor of McCarthy, so close, yet so far. Yawn.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  265. Paul, why did you expect a substantive response?

    I don’t. I do note that frosty likes to ask questions but is niggardly in replying to them.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  266. DCSCA:

    It boils down to the vote switchers telling the mule heads why they switched and explaining the leverage they now have all term long.

    It may take a few more rounds and a few more long nights but it will happen.

    Appalled (fc90ad)

  267. @273. Demand the folding money in his pockets along w/t loose change, too– and his SoH parking space.

    Leave his cufflinks for the next flipper. 😉

    DCSCA (1134cb)

  268. 273,

    I think McCarthy wants the seat so bad that he will make any deal. It’s not obvious that anyone else really wants it either. Now we just wait to see what other deals get made.

    frosty (bc9af7)

  269. All these deals with the GOP holdouts … how are they enforced if McCarthy is elected Speaker? Do they an agreement, or Republican Congressional rules for this term?

    DRJ (676a53)

  270. Correction: Do they sign an agreement?

    DRJ (676a53)

  271. I think McCarthy wants the seat so bad that he will make any deal.

    Yep.

    DCSCA (1134cb)

  272. @277. Rules Committee sets it up.

    DCSCA (1134cb)

  273. #276

    Also, the malcontents can force a vote to remove the speaker at any time with just one person requesting. Their threat to use that power is very credible.

    McCarthy is so on the leash to these guys. Well, he wanted this job. *snort*

    Appalled (cea615)

  274. It would be interesting if he started losing votes on the other edge of the party and 5 or 6 moderates from majority dem or close districts decided he was giving the store away to the extremists and would lose them their seats. I don’t think it will happen, but it would be interesting.

    Nic (896fdf)

  275. Mcarthy is getting closer

    Time123 (97f6c3)

  276. Time123 (97f6c3) — 1/6/2023

    McCarthy is getting closer

    Of the 21 holdouts, he can only afford to lose 4.

    He needs 217 with Ken Buck missing. With Ken Buck there, he needs 218.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  277. 280,

    This is just returning to the old rules yes? If so I’m not sure why holding out to keep it was worth it.

    At one point the squad was in this position with NP but folded early. I wonder how often McCarthy, and the GOPe, gaze longingly at NP’s p1mp hand.

    frosty (bc9af7)

  278. Jim Jordan has 5 right now with over 100 votes left to go.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/01/04/us/politics/house-speaker-vote-tally.html

    He’s lost the 13th ballot also.

    Jim Jordan is up to 6

    170-162 for Jeffries (Some Republicans wait till the end – they have to be summoned to the floor)

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  279. frosty (bc9af7) — 1/6/2023 @ 11:42 am

    This is just returning to the old rules yes? If so I’m not sure why holding out to keep it was worth it.

    They are returning to some rules that were in place some Congresses ago – plus more. Maybe some committee seats.

    But it’s not enough to get all the naysayers.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  280. McCarthy: 214

    Jordan: 6

    Jeffries: 212

    Total: 432 (1 Dem vacancy, 1 Rep off for medical treatment in Colorado)

    Number needed to win: 217

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  281. https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/opinion-potomac-watch/house-republicans-still-cant-elect-a-new-speaker/75d26818-9a8f-4a82-9f13-f536939ed0a2

    https://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2023/01/strassel-insight-and-cheers-for-long.html

    The WSJ’s Kim Strassel, whose fact-filled columns are always a delight, explains that there actually are important issues at stake here:

    Committees barely function. Members have no ability to debate or amend. Leaders disappear into back rooms to cook up mammoth bills that are dropped on the floor for last-minute take-it-or-leave it votes. Add Mrs. Pelosi’s Covid “proxy” voting rules, and most of the House didn’t even bother to clock in.

    Under the proposed new rules package, committees are back in charge of legislation, with rules designed to ensure that bills address single subjects—rather than catch-all legislation. It similarly gives members new power to challenge amendments that aren’t related to the topic at hand. And it revives “Calendar Wednesday,” whereby any committee chairman can bring a bill straight to the floor.

    It includes new provisions for accountability and transparency. Proxy voting is history, as are virtual committee meetings. It requires a 72-hour rule to give members time to read legislation. It ends Democrats’ wild experiment with staffer unionization, which threatened to tie the chamber up with crazy demands.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  282. Motion to Adjourn – tied right now.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  283. 14th vote expected tonight when House resumes 10 pm

    Sammy Finkelman (3178e0)

  284. Paul, why did you expect a substantive response?

    I don’t. I do note that frosty likes to ask questions but is niggardly in replying to them.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7) — 1/6/2023 @ 10:38 am

    I wish I could sublet the space you two are giving me rent free.

    frosty (c77e67)

  285. Assuming the McCarthy does eventually win, what are the odds that a “motion to vacate the chair” will be debated in the next 6 months? I think they are about even.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  286. There were two cartoons in Politco’s weekly collection that I liked, Matt Davies’s flag, and Bill Bramhall’s 2 Years.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  287. OOps! Wrong thread. Sorry about that.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  288. Also, the malcontents can force a vote to remove the speaker at any time with just one person requesting

    ok but even so, even if this is the old rules, how are their rules without a speaker and a vote to establish rules for this term?

    DRJ (8277ed)

  289. How are there rules

    DRJ (8277ed)

  290. If they get a Speaker tonight, they expect to vote on the rules package tonight, as well. I guess. Whatever this means:

    Asked if they had the votes to pass the rules package tonight, Perry replied, “I sure hope so.”

    Hill said, “We’ll see what happens.”

    nk (658f2c)

  291. My guess about the whole fiasco is that the problem the MAGAs really have with the rules is that they don’t understand them. Too many, too arcane, too hard to read.

    nk (658f2c)

  292. Well, no, actually, I don’t believe that. I believe they’re doing it because they have nothing else to offer to their constituencies. It’s not like Boebert will find a cure for the summer time blues or Gaetz will broker a peace agreement between Andorra and San Marino.

    nk (658f2c)

  293. And, like Kevin, I wonder why they would want AOC to call for a new Speaker once a week.

    nk (658f2c)

  294. McCarthy denied again?!

    CSPAN cameras catching some very nasty exchanges between McCarthy, Boebert and Goetz. The anger is showing. With t/cry, ‘Stay civil’ echoing in the room…

    Somebody cane somebody already! 😉

    DCSCA (039744)

  295. A move to adjourn to Monday??????????

    How Ukrainian air defense can solve this problem with good ‘ol freebee, USA technology… 😉

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjpVtXXcvI8&t=3s

    DCSCA (039744)

  296. I’ve never been prouder of Matt Gaetz, sticking to his guns while his erstwhile allies caved.

    Rip Murdock (58ae3c)

  297. Adjournment denied; round 16 of voting begins! McCarthy… beaming as if this is good for him.

    DCSCA (06b3fb)

  298. I think McC has this.

    Nate (1f1d55)

  299. I’ve never been prouder of Matt Gaetz, sticking to his guns while his erstwhile allies caved.

    Me neither. I can attest categorically that he has never stood higher in my esteem.

    nk (658f2c)

  300. I think McC has this.

    And every dominatrix in the country sending him her card.

    nk (658f2c)

  301. Lest we forget that another McCarthy was a wooden-headed dummy, too.

    DCSCA (d5155f)

  302. I’ve never been prouder of Matt Gaetz, sticking to his guns while his erstwhile allies caved.

    Me neither. I can attest categorically that he has never stood higher in my esteem.

    nk (658f2c) — 1/6/2023 @ 9:27 pm

    He’s pure goodness, and will never cave to the evil RINOs and GOPe, who are bent on thwarting the will of the people and destroying America.

    norcal (862cdb)

  303. After surrendering all semblance of power (not to mention dignity), McCarthy is like the straw owners the Mafia used to put on the titles to their casinos.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  304. “Now we’ve learned how to govern.”- Kevin McCarthy 1/6/23

    JFCA. The Royalist numbskull has been in Congress 16 years.

    … and Putin smiled. Xi merely grinned.

    DCSCA (d5155f)

  305. Gaetz finally relented in the 15th round, so McCarthy barely made it in.
    I’ll take this brain damage as a harbinger for the next two years.

    Paul Montagu (8f0dc7)

  306. @312. Unless he’s voted out. All it will take is one to call for a vote– and with this angry, distrusting group it might occur weekly.

    Set up the McCarthy vs. head of lettuce website.

    DCSCA (d5155f)

  307. “The Congress is at a fork in the road.” – Hakeem Jeffries 1/7/23

    “When you come to a fork in the road, take it.” – Yogi Berra

    DCSCA (9b131d)

  308. Why isn’t it Pelosi handing over the gavel to McCarthy?

    DCSCA (9b131d)

  309. 315,

    She knows someone who collects hammers?

    frosty (1271c3)

  310. K street for the win! Mccarthy please clap! Bueller? Anyone. For DCSCA and frank luntz smiled.

    asset (386aa3)

  311. It would be interesting if he started losing votes on the other edge of the party and 5 or 6 moderates from majority dem or close districts decided he was giving the store away to the extremists and would lose them their seats. I don’t think it will happen, but it would be interesting.

    Nic (896fdf) — 1/6/2023 @ 11:28 am

    The extremists are on the other side.

    What exactly did they ask for that was extreme? To be fiscally responsible? To investigate areas within their purview? To hold the other offices of the government accountable?

    Or is just because they are icky conservatives that actually plan on upholding themselves to their campaign promises to the citizens of the Inited States?

    NJRob (ebddbf)

  312. They played it well. Got a lot of people to forget all the reasons why McCarthy should never be Speaker by having worse people than he is oppose him.

    nk (658f2c)

  313. Several reactions to McCarthy’s win:

    1. Trump: “Congratulations to Kevin McCarthy and our GREAT Republican Party! The ‘Speaker’ selection process, as crazy as it may seem, has made it all much bigger and more important than if done the more conventional way.”

    2. McConnell: “Congratulations to Speaker McCarthy and the Republican House majority. Senate Republicans look forward to working together to check and balance Washington Democrats, bring oversight to this reckless Administration, fight the far left’s radical policies, and defend America.”

    3. Donalds: “What our nation has witnessed this week is a testament to the majesty of our Constitutional Republic and the ideals which have sustained our country for 246 years. Since day one, I’ve said leadership isn’t given, it’s earned, and the fruits of tireless labor have delivered a product that puts the American people first and restores power to We The People.”

    4. Schumer: “Speaker Kevin McCarthy’s dream job could turn into a nightmare for the American people. To get the votes, he surrendered to demands of a fringe element of the Republican party. Kevin McCarthy’s concessions to the extremists in his party make it far more likely that the MAGA Republican-controlled House will cause a government shutdown or a default with devastating consequences to our country.”

    Quiz: Which one matches the sentiments of the usual commenters here?

    What a coincidence!!

    JF (42e20d)

  314. What a coincidence!!

    JF (42e20d) — 1/7/2023 @ 8:11 am

    And they would have gotten away with it too, if it weren’t for those meddling kids and their nosy dog!

    frosty (954d0a)

  315. So what did the excruciating 15-round slobberknocker accomplish? At best you have a speaker on a very short leash to a small cabal of insurgents. Now, if this was all about getting back to regular order and a more sausage-making approach to legislation, it would be hard to be too upset. But based on the backgrounds of some of the 12th-hour rabble, color me skeptical.

    Most of the rabble come from super-safe districts that are immune from party discipline. They fundraise online; they can speak to their voters via social media and avoid institutional media; and they have a powerful base…fueled by right-wing media’s clanging drum….who have fetishized anti-establishmentarianism….that prefer the craziest SOB on the ticket. These are really independents who aren’t really looking to govern….but wanting to tear everything down.

    Well you say, maybe things do need to be broken down to allow the phoenix to rise from the ashes. Again, I’m skeptical that this is a thoughtful and well-planned demolition. It’s swing the sledge hammer first and plan afterwards: Electrical conduit and plumbing lines be damned. Now don’t get me wrong, like nk, I don’t in any way view McCarthy as a load-bearing wall, to stretch the metaphor. He helped feed the monster that has now turned its mind to eating him. It was like watching Quint getting taken out by Jaws….we all saw he had it coming.

    Maybe this is the needed progression. The under-performance in 2022 was obviously an insufficient correction for the GOP. We clearly need more inter-party cannibalism and legislative chaos to push the GOP into minority status. If you’re unwilling to compromise or find ways to build coalitions, then maybe it’s best to be a lean mean minority unsaddled by leadership expectations. Of course the party wants to win and secure power so there just may need to be one more round of losing to abandon the current track. But the deconstruction firm of Graetz-Biggs-Boebert, what a job, right?

    AJ_Liberty (baf3b9)

  316. Quiz: Which one matches the sentiments of the usual commenters here?

    “China loving Coco Chow’s Obedient Husband, Mitch’s”, who else?

    Unfortunately, only on ranches do lead steers and bellwethers, despite being castrated male cattle and sheep, still lead the herd. In Congress, “working together to check and balance Washington Democrats, bring oversight to this reckless Administration, fight the far left’s radical policies, and defend America” is McConnell whistling past the graveyard. All they’ll do is their best to hold on to their cinchy jobs.

    nk (bb1548)

  317. Since the MSM is still running horse-race stories about this, what exactly did the holdout win in concessions besides making the Speaker job a plaything for disgruntled members?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  318. Having gotten McCarthy’s package, did they proceed to the Rules package as well last night?

    nk (bb1548)

  319. Since the MSM is still running horse-race stories about this, what exactly did the holdout win in concessions besides making the Speaker job a plaything for disgruntled members?
    Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/7/2023 @ 9:20 am

    disgruntled thy name is NeverTrump

    for six years now

    and it is too bad that the example is being followed, but too late for many here to whine about it

    JF (42e20d)

  320. ultimately the disgruntled contingent voted for the party choice this time, to pursue common policy goals

    that’s what adults do

    JF (42e20d)

  321. nk (bb1548) — 1/7/2023 @ 9:25 am

    Having gotten McCarthy’s package, did they proceed to the Rules package as well last night?

    No, they didn’t.

    They know they can’t get the rules passed. And the temporary rules don’t require a vote to be held immediately.

    I was wondering what with Omicron variant XBB 1.5 (a descendant of XBB plain, itself a combination of two omicron variants – not the same one circulating in China which is a variant that had almost passed out of existence outside of China) rapidly spreading in New York and the northeast, I was wondering when and if any memers of Congress would get Covid, and sure enough Matt Goetz woke up Saturday, after going to bed at 3 am, with a case of “crud” as he called it,

    https://nypost.com/2023/01/07/freedom-caucus-earns-major-concessions-from-kevin-mccarthy

    The firebrand Floridian said he didn’t get to bed until 3 a.m. Saturday morning and awoke later under the weather.

    “I have the crud. It’s when you’re coughing up phlegm,” Gaetz said. “I have my sweet wife making me hot tea.”

    Sammy Finkelman (4e1de2)

  322. Kevin M (1ea396) — 1/7/2023 @ 9:20 am

    what exactly did the holdout win in concessions besides making the Speaker job a plaything for disgruntled members?

    A promise for guaranteed votes on pet issues, like a balanced budget amendment, and term limits, a Texas border plan, and an end to all remaining coronavirus mandates and funding.

    A new committee to investigate the alleged weaponization of the FBI against its political foes. The committee would be modeled on the Church Committee, which investigated US intelligence agencies in 1975. It would have a budget comparable to the recently disbanded Jan. 6 Committee.

    More single-subject bills to allow members to vote on specific, narrow issues instead of thousand-page pork barrel behemoths.

    A 72-hour window for members to read any new bill before it can be voted on.

    A promise to refuse any increase in the debt ceiling in the next federal budget agreement.

    Sammy Finkelman (4e1de2)

  323. They also got a commitment (back on Wednesday) by McCarthy’s PAC not to meddle in Republican primaries in open seats in safe Republican districts.

    Sammy Finkelman (4e1de2)

  324. DRJ (8277ed) — 1/6/2023 @ 6:48 pm

    How are there rules

    A very good question.

    And how can they vote for Speaker, if they are not sworn in? Or if it is nit necessary for them to be sworn in to vote, is it necessary for anything else?

    Is it even necessary for there to be a Speaker?

    Sammy Finkelman (4e1de2)

  325. A promise to refuse any increase in the debt ceiling in the next federal budget agreement.

    Which at least 5 members of the House will ignore. Defaulting on the debt is not a hill that many will choose to die on.

    Kevin M (1ea396)


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