Patterico's Pontifications

9/13/2022

Sen. Lindsey Graham Introduces National Abortion Bill

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:03 am



[guest post by Dana]

Almost three months after the Roe decision and two months before the midterm election, Sen. Lindsey Graham introduced a bill this morning that would limit abortion on demand to 15 weeks nationwide:

“I think we should have a law at the federal level that after 15 weeks, no abortion on demand, except in the case of incest, rape, or to save the life of the mother…If we adopted our bill, we would be in the mainstream of almost everybody else in the world. I think there are 47 of the 50 European countries have a ban on abortion from 12-15 weeks. And I picked 15 weeks…because…the science tells us that the nerve endings are developed to the point that the unborn child feels pain..”

Graham also pointed out that this bill would put us in line with most European nations’ abortion laws, and that it would put us in line with both science and the civilized world.

Rather than both parties’ extreme views on abortion: legal abortion up to the moment of birth or no abortion ever, no exceptions, Graham’s proposed bill seems more representative of America at large:

The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research poll shows many Americans back some restrictions on abortion, especially after the first trimester, but the most extreme measures introduced in some Republican-led states are at odds with the public — and with many of the people who live in them.

[…]

Overwhelming majorities also think their state should generally allow abortion in specific cases, including if the health of the pregnant person is endangered or if the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest. Few think abortion should always be illegal, and most Americans support their state generally allowing abortion six weeks into the pregnancy.

Those patterns persist even in the 23 states in which laws banning or tightening access to abortion have taken effect, will soon take effect or are being debated in court.

Views about abortion at the 15-week mark are muddled. The poll shows Americans in states that have deepened restrictions on abortion are closely divided over abortion at 15 weeks into a pregnancy. That compares with about 6 in 10 Americans in other states saying abortion should be allowed at that point. That gap is similar on allowing abortion for “any reason.”

Support dwindles across the board at 24 weeks into the pregnancy, with only about a third saying their state should generally allow for that.

Democrats should allow a debate and vote on Graham’s bill. After all, if Democrats really believe what they’ve repeatedly said (that abortion through the ninth month is what a majority of voters want), then there shouldn’t be any problem – or fear – in granting Graham’s request…

P.S. Mitch weighs in:

–Dana

117 Responses to “Sen. Lindsey Graham Introduces National Abortion Bill”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. It won’t get 60 votes in the Senate, and probably not a majority of Republicans in the House. DOA.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  3. A gift to the DNC. He can’t read a calendar; should have waited until after the midterms. But then, Swampy Royalists of a feather do stick together; a gift to ol’Senatge chum Joe.

    DCSCA (3e67b9)

  4. Graham could be giving Republicans in tricky midterm elections who are shying away from the harsh abortion ban stance an out, and giving them something more reasonable and more middle of the road to grab onto

    Dana (1225fc)

  5. Early returns show MAGAWorld is not amused:

    …….The Democrats will be raising money and scaring people when they vote for US Senate seats about a federal abortion law because of this. Lindsey Graham earning his stripes here as an Assistant Democrat. …… From the moment of conception, it is genetically recognizable as a human life and it is a unique individual. Don’t murder it. ……… A life is a life — 5 minutes or 5 months. ……..This is a state issue. Period. …….Lindsey trying to screw up the midterms..seriously why bring up abortion now ………It’s still a State issue, no?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  6. I’m confused. I thought this was a states rights issue now.

    Davethulhu (aec6bf)

  7. Yeah but if the constitution is silent about women’s unenumerated right to abortion, then it is similarly silent about necessary and proper powers granted congress to regulate (within any single state) abortion.

    Pouncer (c02b00)

  8. Lindsey, not Lyndsey, but a hyperpartisan toady by any other spelling would smell as foul.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  9. Graham’s abortion ban stuns Senate GOP
    ………
    …….[S]ome fellow Republicans said they were highly perplexed at Graham’s decision to inject a new abortion ban — more conservative than his previous proposals — into the nation’s political bloodstream at a precarious moment for the party.
    ……….
    Graham’s past pitches for a 20-week abortion ban attracted most Republicans’ support and even the votes of some Senate Democrats. His latest effort would leave in place state laws that are even more restrictive while also imposing new limits in blue states that currently have none. Coming less than 60 days before the midterms, it’s riled some Republicans, who are watching their once-dominant polling advantage shrink since the Roe reversal.
    ………
    ………Since the Supreme Court’s decision, Republicans in both chambers have stuck to a carefully honed message: It’s up to individual states to decide their abortion policies.

    Yet anti-abortion activists are vocally demanding more. In a letter sent to lawmakers on Monday, dozens of groups called for “important federal policies” including “gestational limits” and “addressing dangerous mail-order chemical abortion” — both issues that GOP leaders have said little about since the high court’s ruling.
    ………

    With apologies to Gene Roddenberry, “The bill is dead, Jim.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  10. Ugh. Corrected. Thanks, Paul. I’ve no idea how/why I screwed that up.

    Dana (1225fc)

  11. It’s only intended for the betterment of your works. 🙂

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  12. Graham’s proposed bill seems more representative of America at large …….

    Except that the bill doesn’t apply to states with 6 or 12 week, or even total ban, abortion laws. The 15-week limit will apply only to states with broader limits or none at all. Not a way to win votes in the Senate.

    Rip Murdock (b16a33)

  13. 15 weeks is on the far end of most abortion bans in the western world. But the left must abort at any stage of life so they’ll just say they are protecting a “woman’s choice” by allowing a baby to be chopped up in the womb.

    That’s what the PoS Pallone in NJ is doing 8n his disgusting ads,

    NJRob (0861be)

  14. Savethulu,

    Tell it to your VP Harris who wants to do away with the filibuster to codify 9 month baby sacrifice as the law of the land.

    NJRob (0861be)

  15. Desperation! The democrats wont support a 15 week abortion ban as many (especially young girls) don’t even know their pregnant in that short a time. Right to lifers will feel betrayed for mid term political gain. This will put republicans on a hard choice not democrats.

    asset (0e231d)

  16. If it’s as advertised this sounds like a reasonable law.
    15 weeks is about when viability starts.
    If it includes exceptions for the health of the mother…

    Time123 (5f95d0)

  17. @15 by week 15 a woman would be 11 weeks late, or have missed 2+periods.

    That’s reasonable imo.

    Time123 (5f95d0)

  18. Dana,

    It’s really important to qualify these limits with “elective” since none of them apply to life-threatening and other emergent situations. Most national laws have several categories and “elective” or “on-demand” abortion is what most people mean when they talk about limits. But pollsters and defenders of open abortion laws seem intent on muddling this issue.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  19. Its not a baby its a fetus. You call it what you want and so can I as do the majority of americans.

    asset (0e231d)

  20. Here is the international breakdown:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law#Summary_tables

    Note that some first world countries like the UK do not allow purely-elective abortions

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  21. That’s reasonable imo.

    Time123 (5f95d0) — 9/13/2022 @ 12:33 pm

    Except as I noted above it doesn’t apply to states that have more restrictive limits on abortion. They will remain in place.

    Rip Murdock (b16a33)

  22. @17 reasonable to you. Not to me or the majority voters. Republicans are rats leaving the sinking anti-abortion ship. As I have said before democrats will do the same to republicans over abortion rights that republicans have been doing to democrats for over 50 years on gun control.

    asset (0e231d)

  23. OT- Another Opposite Day for the Joe Show in the USA; inflation jumps again; market down nearly 1300 points while Squinty is literally touting economic success at the very same time on the WH lawn. Hey Joe; here’s the deal: Queen Elizabth II is having lunch with Beau.

    DCSCA (61ac0a)

  24. I know that the GOP has promised to ban abortion and has even proposed a amendment to do so. They’ve also promised to balance the budget. Some things just cannot be done.

    The whole thing about using the courts to settle the issue is that the courts are not the place to do it. Neither is the Constitution. Sausage-making is a job for the legislature.

    While I and lots of other people thought that this would be a good test for Federalism, the behavior of some states (e.g. TX blocking medical attention for miscarriages and threatening those who transport a pregnant woman out of state with lawsuits and/or criminal sanctions) makes this a toxic position to hold.

    Don’t blame Graham, blame Abbot.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  25. Grahams position is the same as the 70% in the middle of this. But both parties are captured by their extremes. It’s interesting to see this battle here in NM, where the law (signed by the current governor) allows elective abortion the day of delivery and her opponent has been talking pretty much along Graham’s line.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  26. then it is similarly silent about necessary and proper powers granted congress to regulate (within any single state) abortion.

    If Obamacare is necessary and proper, so is this. Clearly abortion is an interstate commerce issue, especially now.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  27. “addressing dangerous mail-order chemical abortion”

    Since almost all first-trimester abortions are now begun with drugs, with a D&C to follow if necessary, it is utterly impossible to stop such abortions unless you want all women who need a D&C following a miscarriage (or abortion) to suffer (or die).

    And if you cannot prohibit something effectively, you’re an idiot to try.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  28. Its not a baby its a fetus. You call it what you want and so can I as do the majority of americans.

    What is it the day before delivery?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  29. If it includes exceptions for the health of the mother…

    Which is why the word “elective” is so incredibly important. As for “health” it matters how you define that. If it means “might increase the frequency of stress” then no.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  30. California Governor Launches Abortion.ca.gov
    …….
    California, the Abortion Sanctuary State, has officially created a new website to assist out-of-staters with their abortion travel plans.
    …….
    ……Gov. Gavin Newsom and the State Legislature are offering taxpayer funds to help out-of-state residents obtain abortions, as well as legalizing infanticide through recently amended legislation. According to the bill’s author, Assemblywoman Buffy Wicks, the bill is about “reproductive justice, pregnancy criminalization, reproductive freedom, and pregnancy loss.”

    Given California’s burgeoning new industry, shouldn’t Gov. Newsom be happy with the Supreme Court since there will be no federal restrictions on abortion?

    Here are some of the highlights of Gov. Newsom’s first-in-the-nation Abortion Sanctuary State:

    This year’s state budget includes more than $200 million in additional funding for reproductive health care services.

    The Governor signed an executive order preventing medical records, patient data and other information from being shared by state agencies in response to inquiries or investigations brought by other states or individuals within those states looking to restrict abortion access, and announced the Governor’s policy of declining to extradite any person in California sought by another state for lawful abortion services provided in California.

    Governor Newsom signed legislation eliminating copays for abortion care services and signed into law a legislative package to further strengthen access and protect patients and providers.

    In November, California voters will have an opportunity to amend the state’s constitution to enshrine the right to an abortion following the introduction of a constitutional amendment by state leaders.

    Notably, the abortion.ca.gov website says, “Under California law, anyone in California who is pregnant has a legal right to choose to have an abortion before viability.” We will see if the governor is able to redefine “viability,” which the state explains: “A pregnancy becomes viable when a doctor determines that the fetus could live outside the uterus without extreme medical measures.”

    Thankfully Abortion.ca.gov got that right. …..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  31. CA has a 24 week limit for all abortions other than for life & health.

    NM has no limit whatsoever.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  32. As for “fetus”, I invite anyone to approach an expectant mother and inquire about her “fetus.”

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  33. OT-

    Ken Starr (76) has died.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  34. They are not being clear about the premise on which Congress can legislate. Congress can legislate around the edges,

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  35. New Mexico: Land of Entropy

    Colonel Haiku (405861)

  36. I added a clip of Mitch McConnell’s reaction to Graham’s bill.

    Dana (1225fc)

  37. The New York Times removed the word “fetus” from its Wordle answers one day (I think they said it is properly spelled foetus.

    Or maybe not:

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/may/09/new-york-times-drops-fetus-as-an-answer-to-wordle

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/4awzbw/wordle-fetus-new-york-times

    They changed the word in the middle of a day.

    Ithiksomepeolecomplained.

    I think some people must have complained. They didn’t want there to be a word for such a thing.

    Or it was that it is a word used only by “pro-life” people.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  38. McConnell’s kiss of death.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  39. I added a clip of Mitch McConnell’s reaction to Graham’s bill.

    My God- a grimmer group of grumpy, frowning old fudds you’ll never see.

    Little wonder Americans storm the castle.

    DCSCA (29697d)

  40. McConnell is right.

    Why must everything be federalized? It flies in the face of the system the Founders created. The federal government should only do what the states can’t do themselves (e.g. military, foreign policy). States can handle something as simple as abortion.

    The only role for the feds is to prevent states from acting the busybody with other states. For example, if gambling is legal in Nevada, but not in Utah, Utah shouldn’t be allowed to punish Utahns who go to Nevada to gamble. The same goes for abortion. Mind your own f’ing business.

    norcal (da5491)

  41. Literally and figuratively!

    norcal (da5491)

  42. Why must everything be federalized? The federal government should only do what the states can’t do themselves (e.g. military, foreign policy)……

    norcal (da5491) — 9/13/2022 @ 2:55 pm

    So you are ok with human trafficking, drug smuggling, mail and wire fraud, etc being the sole responsibility of the states?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  43. @43 No. Those are criminal activities that cross state lines, and everyone agrees those are crimes.

    Not everyone agrees that abortion is a crime, or even morally wrong. Like gambling. It is verboten in Utah. Hop the border and it’s perfectly fine.

    norcal (da5491)

  44. IMO this proposal, like Roe v Wade before it, is good policy but bad law. One of the pillars of the GOP’s 50 year opposition to Roe was “let the states decide.” If they back a federal ban now, it exposes everything they’ve ever said about federalism as rank hypocrisy.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  45. Nancy Pelosi nudges audience to clap during White House lawn event: ‘That’s an applause line’

    “Mr. President, thank you for unifying and inspiring a vision of a stronger, fairer, safer future for all our children. Your extraordinary leadership has made this glorious day possible,” Pelosi said. After a brief moment of silence, Pelosi told the audience “that’s an applause line,” eliciting claps from the spectators. – FoxNews.com

    Extraordinary leadership? Glorious???? Stop plagiarizing my act, San Franwitchco.

    “I’d hate to take a bite outta you. You’re a cookie full of arsenic.” – J.J. Hunsecker [Burt Lancaster] ‘The Sweet Smell Of Success’ 1957

    DCSCA (29697d)

  46. A gift to the DNC. He can’t read a calendar; should have waited until after the midterms. But then, Swampy Royalists of a feather do stick together; a gift to ol’Senatge chum Joe.

    DCSCA (3e67b9) — 9/13/2022 @ 11:10 am

    AFAICT no one on these boards admires the Windsors more than you do. I’m not complaining. It may be your best feature. But for you to then use the term “royalist” as promiscuously and pejoratively as you do murders irony.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  47. ^^Kevin D. Williamson giving a lecture at AEI: “Congestive Heart Failure: Theory and Application”^^

    Colonel Haiku (405861)

  48. @49. So classy.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  49. @49 Williamson has plenty of company in that regard. This is America, after all.

    norcal (da5491)

  50. If that’s an important criterion for you, Colonel, whence the Trump support?

    norcal (da5491)

  51. Maybe he can get some fitness advice from Trump.

    Davethulhu (aec6bf)

  52. @33 Not relevant what she calls it. If I call myself a martian that doesn’t make me from mars! A 10 year old girl raped by her mom’s boy friend would be more intellectually honest. Wonder why you didn’t use that analogy for fetus?

    asset (9186aa)

  53. I have always maintained that if Republicans truly wanted to see decreases in abortion while developing a majority for limiting abortion, they should have gone about it incrementally, not with extremism. They were never going to get a majority to agree with them on no abortions, no exceptions. But they may win over voters by putting reasonable limits on abortion. Unfortunately, the timing of Graham’s bill does not seem to be optimum.

    Dana (1225fc)

  54. When McConnell’s right, he’s right. Tristan Snell

    Lindsey Graham seems awfully fond of making strict laws for others when he can’t even obey a simple subpoena.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  55. “Not everyone agrees that abortion is a crime, or even morally wrong. Like gambling. It is verboten in Utah. Hop the border and it’s perfectly fine.”

    Old lady pulls the slot machine handle, looses, no harm no foul.

    Young human dismembered in the uterus and removed… it’s just “too bad, Cletus”.

    Colonel Haiku (405861)

  56. @57 It’s an analogy, not an equivalency.

    norcal (da5491)

  57. Unfortunately, the timing of Graham’s bill does not seem to be optimum.

    As does the fact that it only applies only to blue (for the most part) states with abortion limits exceeding 15 weeks. If you live in Florida or Texas, abortions will limited to six weeks or not available at all. That’s no incentive for Democratic support.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  58. Fifteen weeks. This was the Mississippi law at issue in Dobbs that Roberts would have been content to uphold.

    nk (f80665)

  59. @47… =yawn= whined a redcoated Royalist sipping warm ale at the Buckman Tavern after shooting down rebellious militiamen on the Lexington green.

    DCSCA (4f147f)

  60. Unfortunately, the timing of Graham’s bill does not seem to be optimum.

    Dana (1225fc) — 9/13/2022 @ 4:04 pm

    I agree with you about the timing, Dana, but to me, that isn’t its biggest problem. My issue with it is taking it federal.

    We are the United States of America, not the Uniform States of America. What happened to the 50 laboratories of democracy idea?

    norcal (da5491)

  61. Lindsey Graham saves Biden’s big day

    ……….
    So obvious was the apparent ill-timing of the bill’s introduction that one White House aide said a Republican lobbyist friend joked that Graham appeared to be working for the Biden administration. Other aides suggested that the comments continued a Democratic winning streak that started mid-summer and began to imagine holding onto both houses of Congress.

    “Dems might need to send gift baskets and champagne to Graham and other Republicans for their selfless act of service today,” another Democratic official told POLITICO.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  62. Unfortunately, the timing of Graham’s bill does not seem to be optimum.

    He’s aching for a Senatorial spanking of sorts. And likely— would sort of love it. 😉

    DCSCA (4f147f)

  63. And I wish people would stop with the “Necessary and Proper”. It only applies to what is Necessary and Proper for Congress to carry out its enumerated powers. If they want to raise an army, it is necessary and proper to buy rifles; if they want to support a Navy, it is necessary and proper buy gray paint. It is not plenary power.

    nk (f80665)

  64. Love seeing all the abortion supporters contorting themselves into federalists except for asset who just jumps off the deep end.

    This is on the outskirts of the law that the rest of the civilized world has. If you want abortion up until birth, China and North Korea are looking for you.

    NJRob (97737f)

  65. @66 I’m not contorting myself, Rob. I”ve always been a federalist.

    norcal (da5491)

  66. DCSCA (4f147f) — 9/13/2022 @ 4:27 pm

    “I know you are but what am I” is not responsive.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  67. Love seeing all the abortion supporters contorting themselves into federalists except for asset who just jumps off the deep end.

    How about you, Rob? Did you make federalism arguments against Roe? Do you support this law now? And before you ask, like norcal I was pro-federalism as to Roe and I’m pro-federalism as to this law.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  68. It doesn’t appear he understood your @47, lurker.

    norcal (da5491)

  69. @68. Pfft. Except it is. You confuse reverence for 1,000 years of continuity for time honored traditions w/embracement of royalty. Might want to revisit the language you – and every ATC on Earth– use.

    When America turns 1,000, get back to me, kid.

    DCSCA (c56b15)

  70. @70. It is certain you didn’t.

    DCSCA (c56b15)

  71. West Virginia becomes 2nd state to pass strict abortion ban post-Roe
    ……..
    Abortion had been legal up to 20 weeks in West Virginia since July, when a state judge blocked a pre-Roe ban that dated back to the 19th century.
    ……..
    ……..The bill they passed, which now goes to Republican Gov. Jim Justice’s desk, bars abortion from implantation with narrow exceptions to save the pregnant person’s life or in cases of rape or incest, so long as the victim reports the crime.
    ……..
    The exceptions for victims of rape or incest limit the procedure to before eight weeks of pregnancy, or 14 weeks for people who are under 18 years old. Doctors who violate the law may lose their medical licenses but will not face criminal penalties. Anyone other than a licensed physician with hospital admitting privileges who performs an abortion faces felony charges and up to five years in prison. Those who receive abortions do not face any penalties.
    ……..
    Some antiabortion Republican senators opposed the amended bill because they felt it did not go far enough in limiting abortion.

    “I’m confident that this bill shuts down the abortion clinic,” said state Sen. Eric Tarr (R), who urged his colleagues to vote no on the new language because he said it carved out too many exceptions.

    “I’m also torn and disappointed that my vote now is to decide when do you execute an innocent,” he added. “If life is sacred, when does it become sacred?”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  72. Lindsey Graham’s 15-Week Abortion Ban
    ………
    There’s no need to re-nationalize the question, and it isn’t clear Congress has the authority to do so. Mr. Graham’s bill cites the Constitution’s Commerce Clause and the Equal Protection Clause as justifications for federal power, but neither is convincing. If Republicans care about originalism, and many of them do, then it’s a mistake to start arguing that abortion regulations qualify as “commerce.”

    Fighting for policy change in all 50 states is arduous, with victories offset by defeats and unsatisfying compromises. Democrats and some Republicans don’t want to bother, since it’s easier to pass one bill in Congress, constitutional or not.

    But by Mr. Graham’s political logic, if voters in Colorado, Pennsylvania or Arizona think 15 weeks is too restrictive, they now have a reason to vote against those GOP Senate candidates. Every Republican candidate will be asked to take a stance, and a Senate majority is made by swing states.
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  73. You confuse reverence for 1,000 years of continuity for time honored traditions w/embracement of royalty.

    DCSCA (c56b15) — 9/13/2022 @ 5:10 pm

    I have no use for either. The whole concept of royalty is ridiculous. I suspect its continued existence is down to Disney and little girls’ princess fantasies.

    These are people whose wealth was appropriated long ago through the blood and sweat of commoners. Off with the lot of them.

    norcal (da5491)

  74. OT- Queen Elizabeth to be buried in decades-old coffin lined with lead that takes 8 people to carry

    ‘Like so many proceedings associated with the royal family, the coffin itself carries a specific history with it: It was made decades ago with a liner of lead that makes it especially heavy. The oak coffin was made more than 30 years ago, funeral directors confirmed to USA TODAY. Leverton & Sons, which has served as funeral directors to the royal household said it inherited the coffin made for the queen by another firm, Kenyons. Andrew Leverton, a funeral director at Leverton & Sons, previously told British outlet the Times “It is made from English oak, which is very difficult to get hold of. Oak coffins are now made from American oak. I don’t think we could use English oak for a coffin now. It would be too expensive,” he told the outlet.

    The coffin is also lined with lead, Leverton & Sons said. The lead lining makes the coffin so heavy that eight military bearers will carry it on the day of the queen’s funeral. “It is not something you can just make in a day,” Leverton said, noting that the coffin is also built for historic royal objects to be placed on it. Traditionally, coffins for the royal family are made from oak from the Sandringham estate, the Telegraph reported. For decades, members of the royal family have spent the holidays at the estate located in eastern England. Prince Philip, the queen’s husband who died last year, was also buried in an oak coffin, according to multiple reports.’ – USAToday.com

    Biden, of course, will be planted in an empty Breyer’s chocolate chip ice cream carton, which can be made for use with the help of a spoon in an hour.

    DCSCA (c56b15)

  75. @75. I have no use for either…

    …quipped a tradition steeped Mormon.

    DCSCA (c56b15)

  76. For years I have said the conservative position on abortion is morally reprehensible. Terminating a fetus is murder but once its born its on its own because welfare is government confiscating your money and welfare is socialism/communism! If private charities are overwhelmed as they usually have been before welfare and medicade too bad! We see refugees coming here from central america where the charities are overwhelmed despite the corrupt governments we supported their since reagan. Except nicurgua which was able to fight off ollie north, eden pastore and the c.i.a. drug dealers. How many here believe abortion is murder ;but say welfare is forced socialism confiscating my money with taxes. The only thing government should spend money on is military to shoot the poor if they riot or worse and law enforcement to lock up the minorities for work at hard labor.

    asset (9186aa)

  77. …quipped a tradition steeped Mormon.

    DCSCA (c56b15) — 9/13/2022 @ 5:26 pm

    Anybody who has read me for a while knows how funny that is.

    I stopped believing in Mormonism decades ago, and I yield to no one when it comes to criticizing the church. As a matter of fact, just today I was suspended by a BYU-oriented sports website for making fun of Mormon culture’s disapproval of facial hair.

    norcal (da5491)

  78. @79. Pfft. Let’s appeal to the capitalist in you; consider the enhanced value of ‘royalty’ to the British economy. Tourism. The taxpayers finance the allowances and ‘republicans’ perpetually rail against it as waste- but the figureheads are more or less powerless outside of ceremony for government; but it’s the pageantry of ceremony that’s the draw for thousands of visitors spending millions of pounds. Otherwise who the hell would want to stand in the rain and watch soldiers in fuzzy hats march in and out of old stone edifices or visit an island that serves lousy beef and warm beer, drives on the wrong side of the road, has a circle of stones from Druid times and hates all things French. 😉

    DCSCA (c56b15)

  79. I’m not mentioning any names, but I don’t understand why some people persist on engaging pffters who acquired their “received pronunciation” of the sounds they make out of the nether orifices of their alimentary canals (“Pfft!”) by male (sic) delivery at an English boys school. At best, all they’ll get is the non-TL;DR version of “Pfft!”.

    This is a very serious subject we’re discussing. From any point of view — human, legal, social, political. We don’t need “Waldo Lydecker as played by the offspring of Paul Lynde and Charles Nelson Reilly” impressions.

    I also feel sorry for the critter, I always have, this seems to be the only life he has, but for crying out loud! Do we need to turn this site into the comment section of The New York Post?

    nk (32097f)

  80. This is a very serious subject we’re discussing. From any point of view — human, legal, social, political.

    Step away from the bong, nk:

    Quinnipiac: Only 5 Percent of Americans Say Abortion Is Country’s ‘Most Urgent’ Issue

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/quinnipiac-only-5-percent-of-americans-say-abortion-is-countrys-most-urgent-issue/

    DCSCA (c56b15)

  81. Do we need to turn this site into the comment section of The New York Post?

    Safe bet click traffic at that level would be welcomed, nk. 😉

    DCSCA (c56b15)

  82. Anyway … if Planned Parenthood and NARAL are smart, they will lobby like crazy (not a big leap for them) to get the Democrats and the pros’ (sic) choice Republicans to get behind Graham’s bill. It’s “doctor-tested, mother-approved”. They will keep more than 93% of their business; and the little they will lose, most of them don’t like to do anyway. Kermit Gosnell hurt most.

    nk (32097f)

  83. There’s no need to re-nationalize the question, and it isn’t clear Congress has the authority to do so

    Yes there is, and yes they can. States are imposing conditions and sanctions on their residents who travel to other states, and/or those that help them, which makes federal intervention not only allowable but necessary. The Texas non-law allows Joe Snarbuckle in Alaska to sue American Airlines for transporting a pregnant woman to California for an abortion.

    1. Interstate commerce
    2. 14th Amendment privileges or immunities
    3. Article IV privileges and immunities
    4. 9th/10th Amendment Right to travel

    All of these are being infringed.

    Additionally some of the bans shock the conscience. In Arkansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, South Dakota, Texas and Wisconsin and abortion to save the mother from serious bodily harm is prohibited. This is not a moral choice for the state to make. Ten states bar aborting the product of a rape — again not the state’s moral choice to make.

    On the other side, some of the permissions are also shocking: Seven states allow elective abortion on the day of delivery, 13 states allow elective abortions past 20 weeks, 14 states allow elective abortions up to “viability” which is around 24 weeks in most cases. So fully 2/3rd of the states allow elective abortions at 20 weeks or later.

    If this could be done through Federalism, I’d be all for it. But it is rapidly proving to be impossible. Further, it is not possible to prevent abortions in the first trimester without a greater War on Drugs than we have now.

    So, set a national rule through the legislative process. IF it takes a couple elections for people to get their minds right, so be it.

    But this is a war that 80% of the voters do not want to continue and are increasingly willing to take you other 20% out and shoot you if you won’t STFU about it.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  84. Germany is a federation. So is Russia. Like, you know, whatever.

    Political philosophers have seized on “federalism” to describe our Constitutional system, but the word is nowhere to be found in the Constitution. (Like “abortion”, I know.) If Graham’s Law is found to be in Pursuance with the Constitution, the Supremacy Clause will make the States take it and like it. And “federalism” in America will remain like, you know, whatever.

    nk (32097f)

  85. nk @81

    1) Guilty as charged

    2) You are one funny dude.

    norcal (da5491)

  86. Go Dodgers.

    Kevin M (d942f2)

  87. The thing that might propel Graham’s bill is what is happening to the clinics in many red states, as well as the stress that young women in those states undergo seeking an abortion. Since everyone claims that no one really wants an elective abortion after the first trimester anyway, a lot of clinic owners have got to be picking up the phone and saying “save us from ruin!”

    In the short run anyway, the idea of traveling to another state isn’t viable. Texas has what, 30 million people? If 0.1% of them need an abortion next year, that’s 30,000 cases. Who’s going to handle that? If it’s going to be done by mail-order drugs (and try and stop that — you going to open up every parcel in the Amazon economy?), then it’s thousands of surprise miscarriages at the emergency room.

    A flipping mess.

    Set a rule. 15 weeks, 12 weeks, 6 weeks, whatever. But this 50 year old national nightmare needs to be ended. Then go piss on Blackmun’s grave.

    Kevin M (d942f2)

  88. @91. His timing is foolish; not surprising given the source. All he has done is divide GOP voters and goose the topic into the news cycles pre-midterms at the worst time, dampening chatter and diverting focus from the Biden disasters– which the MSM will gladly do. Plenty of women voters are already riled up for activism over the SCOTUS move; all dummy has done is pour expensive gas on the ambers. He craves a senatorial spanking– and you know, he’d love the sting of it, too.

    DCSCA (17420b)

  89. ^embers.

    DCSCA (17420b)

  90. The whole point of Dobbs was leave abortion policy to the states, and here’s Graham and Pelosi wanting to nationalize it.
    On another note, this is interesting observation…

    America is one of only 7 countries in the world that allow elective abortions after 20 weeks.

    75% of all world nations, including 27 EU countries, do not permit them past 12 weeks.

    Only 3 of 42 European countries permit them past 15 weeks.

    Republicans are now introducing a bill to ban the killing of an unborn baby after 15 weeks, as most countries in the world do.

    Democrats are lying about it and call it “extreme” to deflect from how their position is you should be able to kill a baby that looks like this.

    I agree about Democrats calling it “extreme”, but it should still be left to the states, IMO.

    Paul Montagu (753b42)

  91. The whole point of Dobbs was leave abortion policy to the states, and here’s Graham and Pelosi wanting to nationalize it.

    No, it was to put it into the hands of the legislature(s), where it belongs. Courts, and particularly courts expounding Constitutional Principles and not suited to the job — as both Casey and Roe demonstrated.

    Compromise, separating situations, and settling details are the legislature’s job. And Congress is a legislature for things that don’t work at the state level, and they are clearly not working.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  92. Bloggers here keep saying what they think democrats should do. You say democrats should vote for 15 week abortion ban, well democrats think republicans should vote for hand gun and assault rifle ban. The same thing that would happen to republicans who voted for gun ban would happen to democrats who voted for abortion ban. The gun supporters never got the gun issue to be the number one concern of americans ;but it did not stop them from voting out anti-gun democrats. The abortion issue will not go away ;but continue to fester like the gun control issue. What if extremists decide the issue?

    asset (2c3c8c)

  93. 1) Guilty as charged

    norcal (da5491) — 9/13/2022 @ 7:20 pm

    Have you learned nothing from Trump? Admit nothing. Deny, deny, DENY!

    Not only, despite what you may think you saw, do I deny feeding the troll, but I’ve never even heard of him.

    *90 minutes later*

    Of course I fed the troll. Why wouldn’t I? It was a perfect troll feeding.

    Besides, he’s not the troll. Your wife is.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  94. No law enjoys universal compliance. Laws against homicide have never prevented all homicides, that’s not really the point. Red states have long had far lower abortion rates than blue states (about 40% lower recently) and that is in part the result of stricter laws. This is particularly noteworthy as red states tend to have larger populations that get abortions at high rates. Laws are meant to deter the behavior, and they do.

    mikeybates (c9fa1a)

  95. @4

    Graham could be giving Republicans in tricky midterm elections who are shying away from the harsh abortion ban stance an out, and giving them something more reasonable and more middle of the road to grab onto

    Dana (1225fc) — 9/13/2022 @ 11:22 am

    Absolutely this!

    And Graham is a the safest sponsor of such bills as he almost always submits an abortion-limit bill nearly every year.

    whembly (b770f8)

  96. @6

    I’m confused. I thought this was a states rights issue now.

    Davethulhu (aec6bf) — 9/13/2022 @ 11:27 am

    It’s a states rights issue BECAUSE there’s no governing Congressional Act… yet.

    fwiw, I’d rather it remains within the states.

    whembly (b770f8)

  97. @

    16 If it’s as advertised this sounds like a reasonable law.
    15 weeks is about when viability starts.
    If it includes exceptions for the health of the mother…

    Time123 (5f95d0) — 9/13/2022 @ 12:32 pm

    It does include exceptions for health (on medical official’s discretion) and rape/incest.

    whembly (b770f8)

  98. 1. Interstate commerce
    2. 14th Amendment privileges or immunities
    3. Article IV privileges and immunities
    4. 9th/10th Amendment Right to travel

    All of these are being infringed.

    Additionally some of the bans shock the conscience. In Arkansas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, South Dakota, Texas and Wisconsin and abortion to save the mother from serious bodily harm is prohibited. This is not a moral choice for the state to make. Ten states bar aborting the product of a rape — again not the state’s moral choice to make.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/13/2022 @ 6:41 pm

    (Dobbs) …….put it into the hands of the legislature(s), where it belongs. Courts, and particularly courts expounding Constitutional Principles and not suited to the job — as both Casey and Roe demonstrated.

    Compromise, separating situations, and settling details are the legislature’s job. And Congress is a legislature for things that don’t work at the state level, and they are clearly not working.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/13/2022 @ 11:53 pm

    Since abortion is no longer a constitutional “right” (it never really was), nothing is being infringed (except possibly #4, but we haven’t seen any such enforcement.) States do have the right to set their own abortion laws-if the voters don’t like them, they can elect new legislators.

    Between your two posts it appears you are arguing against yourself. First you say when a legislature passes a law you don’t like, “it is not a moral choice for the state to make.” Then you say that Dobbs put the decision “into the hands of the legislature(s), where it belongs.” I guess as long as you agree with the result.

    75% of all world nations, including 27 EU countries, do not permit them past 12 weeks.

    Paul Montagu (753b42) — 9/13/2022 @ 10:33 pm

    I don’t care what other countries do. Our laws and policies should be independent judgements.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  99. Rip,

    Do you think that a state legislature, or Congress, could pass a law requiring a pregnancy to proceed even if it would likely cost the mother her life?

    Or is that a moral choice only the mother can make?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  100. Could they require an abortion in the same situation?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  101. Kevin M @104 & 105:

    Yes and yes. States with trigger or unenforced abortion statutes that came into force after Dobbs generally ban all abortions, with certain politically palatable exceptions. I can easily imagine a state fully banning abortion if they wished. Under Dobbs states have complete freedom to decide how they want to treat abortion. As we have seen so far post-Dobbs, the views of mothers (let alone fathers) do count for much.

    A state mandating abortions is a different question, and I doubt any state (or the federal government) would do such a thing, but under Dobbs that decision lies with the state legislature. However, like mandatory sterilization, it would be frowned upon (though sterilization is still legal in 31 states and DC) and is is still constitutional.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  102. Correction:

    As we have seen so far post-Dobbs, the views of mothers (let alone fathers) don’t count for much.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  103. Abortion is crabgrass in the backyard of a house on fire.

    DCSCA (68ffb4)

  104. You can still have states permitting abortion as per federalism, but aborting a viable baby is murder. We do not condone murder. I don’t see how anyone can disagree.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  105. Still cannot believe how anyone supports the totalitarian regime currently in office. The way the use the police power to go after their political opponents is something straight out of a 3rd world dictatorship. Disgusting.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  106. You can still have states permitting abortion as per federalism, but aborting a viable baby is murder. We do not condone murder. I don’t see how anyone can disagree.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 9/14/2022 @ 10:24 am

    Assuming you do not believe life begins at conception.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  107. Rip,

    there is no doubt life begins at conception. That’s basic biology. It’s when does the life become constitutionally protected that is being debated.

    It’s quite likely that we will look upon abortion in 200 years the same way we look upon slavery today.

    And just like slavery today, abortion will still happen in unsavory societies.

    BTW, if you are truly pro-life, you might want to stop pushing the leftist agenda so hard. Just a thought.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  108. BTW, if you are truly pro-life, you might want to stop pushing the leftist agenda so hard. Just a thought.

    Just pointing out the contradictions in post-Dobbs America. And I do believe life begins, and should be protected, at conception.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  109. It’s quite likely that we will look upon abortion in 200 years the same way we look upon slavery today.

    I’m glad you are willing to wait that long until is is banned. And I don’t care what happens in “unsavory societies.” I only care about American society and how it treats its most vulnerable.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  110. And I do believe life begins, and should be protected, at conception.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/14/2022 @ 10:49 am

    That’s a valid POV, but it’s not the only one. Actually, no sane, honest person can deny that “life” begins at conception. The question as understood by abortion rights supporters is when there’s a “person” formed sufficiently to deserve the full legal protections of personhood. That’s also a valid POV. And the question for those of us who believe both are indeed valid, is how to construct a legal framework that respects two valid yet seemingly irreconcilable POVs.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  111. 106: So, you do not believe that a person has a right to life, and to defend that right with violence if necessary?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  112. 105 Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/14/2022 @ 9:29 am

    Could they require an abortion in the same situation?

    If the doctors treating her want to, and they can’t find a person in the family to authorize it, they might go to court, just like they have done from time to time with Jehovah’s witnesses and blood transfusions, although, I think. usually with minors. This would happen when the hospital is afraid for it’s reputation.

    Sammy Finkelman (19edaf)

Leave a Reply


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.1635 secs.