Patterico's Pontifications

6/24/2022

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 1:33 pm



[guest post by Dana]

I realize that there was big news regarding the Supreme Court abortion decision today, but because JVW covered it this morning, I’m not including it in today’s news items (but obviously you can comment on it at this post, if you want).

Housekeeping: I want to briefly address the criticism that I am not posting what some readers think I should post in the Weekend Open Thread. First, an “open thread” means just that: you are free to post and link to any news item that interests you. Whether others will want to talk about it, is anybody’s guess. Second, if I haven’t posted about your preferred subject, just accept that I was either unaware of the issue or that other items interested me more. If you think that’s wrong, or feel the need to make a moral judgment about me for not posting what you want, please cut to the chase: patterico@gmail.com

Thank you.

So with that out of the way, let’s go!

First news item

Ah:

This:

Second news item

About bodily autonomy and abortion:

This basic bodily autonomy argument for abortion was first fully articulated in 1971 by moral philosopher Judith Jarvis Thomson. Thomson stipulated for the sake of argument that the unborn child is a human being—and even that it is a human person. But she nonetheless justified abortion as non-intentional killing. Her famous analogy compared a pregnant woman to a hypothetical individual who, without his consent, has been hooked up to a famous violinist who is sick and requires this connection to remain alive. Imagine someone with kidney or liver failure who needs to be plugged into your body so he can rely on your kidney or your liver for, say, nine months, until a transplant could be found.

In Thomson’s analogy, just as it would be morally acceptable for you to choose to detach from the violinist, even if you know he will die as a result, so too would it be acceptable for a pregnant woman to have the unborn child detached. In neither case did you consent to having the violinist plugged in or the child exist in the womb. And in neither case are you seeking the person’s death. You don’t want it for its own sake, nor do you want it for the sake of something else it will bring. Death is neither your means nor your end, in the jargon of philosophers. It isn’t intended, only foreseen. You cut someone off from invasive access to your body, while knowing this will result in death. With this argument, Thomson portrayed pregnancy as an act of violence against women. Just as the violinist was secretly hooked up without your knowledge or consent, violating your bodily integrity, so too the child conceived and growing in the womb does so without permission.

Thomson’s argument fails spectacularly…First, the bodily autonomy argument for abortion could only get off the ground if abortion entailed unintentional killing. But unlike the case of the violinist, where the intention truly is just to detach—with his death a foreseen but unintended side effect—in the case of abortion, the intended outcome is a dead child. Thomson’s hypothetical is wrong about what people want when they seek abortion. An abortion where the child survives is a failed abortion. By contrast, a detachment from the violinist where the violinist survives would be considered a success. In performing an abortion, the abortionist doesn’t seek only to remove an “invading” child from a womb but also to ensure that the child no longer exists. (This is why the pro-abortion movement opposes even the Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act, which would legally protect newborns who survive an attempted abortion.)

Second, the analogy between abortion and the violinist is a non-starter in any case other than when the pregnancy itself was the result of a violation of bodily integrity—as it would be if the violinist were hooked up to you. The analogy doesn’t apply to nearly all pregnancies, the vast majority of which result from consensual sex. In fact, the pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute’s research has shown that only 1 percent of abortions are obtained in cases of rape—a percentage that holds steady across decades of data.

Third news item

The House sends President Biden gun violence bill:

The House sent President Joe Biden the most wide-ranging gun violence bill Congress has passed in decades on Friday, a measured compromise that at once illustrates progress on the long-intractable issue and the deep-seated partisan divide that persists.

The Democratic-led chamber approved the election-year legislation on a mostly party-line 234-193 vote, capping a spurt of action prompted by voters’ revulsion over last month’s mass shootings in New York and Texas. The night before, the Senate approved it by a bipartisan 65-33 margin, with 15 Republicans joining all Democrats in supporting a package that senators from both parties had crafted.

The bill would incrementally toughen requirements for young people to buy guns, deny firearms from more domestic abusers and help local authorities temporarily take weapons from people judged to be dangerous. Most of its $13 billion cost would go to bolster mental health programs and for schools, which have been targeted in Newtown, Connecticut, Parkland, Florida and many other infamous massacres.

14 GOP members vote YES:

Liz Cheney
Adam Kinzinger
Tom Rice
John Katko
Maria Salazar
Chris Jacobs
Brian Fitzpatrick
Peter Meijer
Fred Upton
Steve Chabot
Mike Turner
David Joyce
Anthony Gonzalez of Ohio
Tony Gonzalez of Texas

Related:

What I remember about guns is that I remember almost nothing about guns. People owned them; they didn’t talk about them. They didn’t cover their cars in bumper stickers about them, they didn’t fly flags about them, they didn’t pose for dumb pictures with them. (I’ll plead one personal exemption: When I was a little boy, relatives in Greece once posed me in a Greek Evzone-soldier costume with my uncle’s hunting shotgun. I could barely lift it.)

Today, there is a neediness in the gun culture that speaks to deep insecurities among a certain kind of American citizen. The gun owners I knew—cops, veterans, hunters, sportsmen—owned guns as part of their life, sometimes as tools, sometimes for recreation. Gun ownership was not the central and defining feature of their life…

I have always trusted my fellow citizens with weapons. Now the most vocal advocates for unfettered gun ownership are men sitting in their cars in sunglasses and baseball caps, recording themselves as they dump unhinged rants into their phones about their rights and conspiracies and socialism.

Fourth news item

Supreme Court and Miranda:

The Supreme Court ruled today, 6–3, that if a police officer fails to inform you of your right to remain silent and avoid self-incrimination when you’re suspected of a crime, you can’t sue under federal law as a violation of your civil rights.

To be clear, the Court isn’t overturning Miranda v. Arizona, the 1966 Supreme Court ruling that determined that it’s a violation of a suspect’s Fifth Amendment rights for police to interrogate him or her about a crime without informing them they have the right to remain silent and the right to request an attorney. But what the Court ruled today is that if and when this right is violated, people can’t turn to Section 1983 of the U.S. code and file a civil action lawsuit against the police officer or law enforcement agency and seek redress or damages.

Fifth news item

Overheard:

…Russian Ambassador ANATOLY ANTONOV had a big-name dining companion for lunch Thursday at Café Milano in Georgetown: former U.S. envoy for Afghanistan ZALMAY KHALILZAD. The two were hosted by DIMITRI SIMES, president and CEO of the Center for the National Interest. Our colleague Daniel Lippman was at a neighboring table, overheard the conversation, and took notes on what was said.

On the war in Ukraine: The Russian ambassador agreed when Khalilzad said “we need an agreement” to end the war between Ukraine and Russia. On the prospect of a peace deal, Antonov asked Khalilzad, “What would [the U.S.] like us to give up?” Khalilzad suggested that Antonov have dinner with the Ukrainian ambassador. In an apparent reference to Russia’s false claims that neo-Nazis are running Ukraine, Antonov asked Khalilzad: “You have a lot of Jewish guys in the United States. Why are they so tolerant of what’s happening in Kyiv?”

— On Zelenskyy: Antonov expressed befuddlement over Ukrainian President VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, and said he doesn’t “understand [Zelenskyy’s] vision for the future of Ukraine.”

— On U.S.-Russia relations: “We don’t get any respect” from Washington, Antonov complained, adding that Russia “need[s] respect” and “would like [the U.S.] to respect” it. Asked what might lead to the normalization of relations with the U.S., Antonov told Khalilzad, “I cannot answer your question,” but later said that Russia needed “security guarantees.”

— On diplomacy: Antonov bemoaned the lack of dialogue and communication between the U.S. and Russia, comparing it unfavorably to the Cuban missile crisis, during which the U.S. and Soviet Union continued to talk. Near the end of the lunch, Antonov said: “Zal, I would like to use your contacts and your contacts in this administration,” and Khalilzad discussed the need for a “track two” in communications between the U.S and Russia.

— On a new media outlet: Simes discussed a business idea of his: starting a new TV channel in Moscow, which Khalilzad said could be “very lucrative.” “Don’t forget my request to be junior partner,” Antonov joked. (It is not clear how serious Simes is about his idea.)

Sixth news item

Party before all else:

Finding signs to worry about the future of American democracy is not hard, but few are quite so painful and acute as the cognitive dissonance displayed by Rusty Bowers this week.

Bowers, the Republican speaker of the Arizona State House, was the star witness during yesterday’s hearing of the U.S. House’s January 6 committee. Bowers calls himself a conservative Republican, and he has the record to back that claim up. Like most Republicans, he supported Donald Trump in the 2020 election, but when Trump and Rudy Giuliani tried to pressure him to assist in their scheme to overturn the results of the election in Arizona, where Joe Biden narrowly won, Bowers refused.

Bowers’s testimony was powerful because it was somber, serious, and clearly heartfelt. This is also why it was threatening to Trump, who issued a statement before the hearing even began, attacking Bowers and claiming he’d agreed with Trump that the election was rigged. Under oath, Bowers said flatly that Trump’s account was false.

And yet in an interview with the Associated Press published yesterday, Bowers also said he would back Trump if he runs for president in 2024. “If he is the nominee, if he was up against Biden, I’d vote for him again,” Bowers said. “Simply because what he did the first time, before COVID, was so good for the country. In my view it was great.”

Once you’ve decided that your specific policy planks are more important than ensuring that the fundamental system survives, however, the result sooner or later is a government that has no interest in the will of the people. Imagining this doesn’t take much creativity: After the 2020 election, Trump tried to ignore the will of the people and remain in power. He was stopped only by the courage of people such as Rusty Bowers. If even Bowers is willing to back Trump again, despite his eloquent condemnations, the outlook for popular democracy is very bleak.

Seventh news item

Ukrainian troops withdraw:

Ukrainian troops will have to withdraw from the besieged eastern city of Severodonetsk, the regional governor said Friday…The last remaining major city in the Luhansk region of the Donbas still under Ukrainian control has endured weeks of bombardment by Russia’s invading forces…Lysychansk, Severodonetsk’s twin city in the Luhansk region, has also endured days of heavy shelling, prompting a Ukrainian official to warn the battle for the Donbas is “entering a sort of fearsome climax” this week…”Unfortunately, we will have to remove our military from Severodonetsk, because staying in broken positions makes no sense — the number of dead is growing,” Luhansk region Gov. Serhiy Haidai said in a Telegram post…”Defenders of Severodonetsk will leave the city for new, more fortified positions,” Haidai said in a later post.

Ammunition shortages plague Ukraine’s troops:

Ukraine is running out of shells for the majority of its artillery in part because of a clandestine Russian campaign of bullying and sabotage over the past eight years, including bombings of key munitions depots across Eastern Europe that officials have linked to Moscow, according to Ukrainian government officials and military analysts.

Fighting in eastern and southern Ukraine is now almost exclusively a near-constant exchange of artillery, and Ukraine’s shortage of shells has exacerbated what was already a mismatch on the battlefield against a Russian military with more weapons. Russia is firing more than 60,000 shells per day — 10 times more than the Ukrainians, Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Malyar told The Washington Post.

Most of Ukraine’s artillery pieces date back to the Soviet Union, meaning they rely on the same 122mm- and 152mm-caliber rounds that Russia uses. But outside of Russia, very little supply exists — in large part because Russia spent years targeting Ukrainian and other Eastern European ammunition storage facilities and suppliers before launching its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in late February. Russia has also taken other steps to acquire the ammunition or otherwise prevent its sale to Ukraine.

“Even if everyone gives us this ammunition, it will still not be enough,” Malyar said, adding that Ukraine uses more of the 152mm shells than are produced globally in one day.

Howitzers used by NATO and the United States fire 105mm and 155mm shells. Western countries supplied Ukraine with plenty of those shells but only a limited number of systems to fire them. Despite U.S. and European pledges to send more artillery, Ukraine still does not have enough to replace its old Soviet-era equipment entirely with NATO-standard weaponry.

A U.S. citizen helping to broker weapons transfers to Ukraine said he recently approached an Eastern European country to negotiate a purchase of artillery rounds. Officials in that country said they couldn’t make a deal, the man said, because the Russians had already warned that they would “kill them if they sold anything to the Ukrainians.”

Eighth news item

Opinion writer expresses wrong opinion, gets demoted:

Gannett, the nation’s largest newspaper chain, with more than 200 daily newspapers, announced this month that it’s walking away from opinion sections like the one you’re reading. USA Today’s liberal editorial page editor said they failed to “evolve.”

I know something about Gannett’s evolution since I was USA Today’s deputy editorial page editor until August, when I was demoted after I tweeted, “People who are pregnant are also women.”

That idea was forbidden because a “news reporter” covering diversity, equity and inclusion wrote a story detailing how transgender men can get pregnant. I compounded my sin against this new orthodoxy by calling the idea that men can get pregnant an “opinion.”

If I wanted to keep any job at USA Today, my bosses informed me, I needed to delete these offensive tweets because they were causing pain to the LGBTQ activists and journalists on our staff.

Now, I have been an opinion journalist for 30 years — I thought I was authorized to have opinions. The idea that women are the ones who get pregnant has gone from scientific fact to opinion to outright falsehood in the blink of an eye. Nevertheless, it remains my opinion that women get pregnant…

Ninth news item

Developments in Uvalde investigation bring no comfort to parents or the community:

No security footage from inside the school showed police officers attempting to open the doors to classrooms 111 and 112, which were connected by an adjoining door. Arredondo told the Tribune that he tried to open one door and another group of officers tried to open another, but that the door was reinforced and impenetrable. Those attempts were not caught in the footage reviewed by the Tribune. Some law enforcement officials are skeptical that the doors were ever locked.

Within the first minutes of the law enforcement response, an officer said the Halligan (a firefighting tool that is also sometimes spelled hooligan) was on site. It wasn’t brought into the school until an hour after the first officers entered the building. Authorities didn’t use it and instead waited for keys.

Officers had access to four ballistic shields inside the school during the standoff with the gunman, according to a law enforcement transcript. The first arrived 58 minutes before officers stormed the classrooms. The last arrived 30 minutes before.

Multiple Department of Public Safety officers — up to eight, at one point — entered the building at various times while the shooter was holed up. Many quickly left to pursue other duties, including evacuating children, after seeing the number of officers already there. At least one of the officers expressed confusion and frustration about why the officers weren’t breaching the classroom, but was told that no order to do so had been given.

At least some officers on the scene seemed to believe that Arredondo was in charge inside the school, and at times Arredondo seemed to be issuing orders such as directing officers to evacuate students from other classrooms. That contradicts Arredondo’s assertion that he did not believe he was running the law enforcement response. Arredondo’s lawyer, George E. Hyde, said the chief will not elaborate on his interview with the Tribune, given the ongoing investigation.

It’s been a long week. I hope everyone has a restful weekend.

–Dana

179 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. Dana– FWIW, I think you do a helluva fine job listing a variety of topic for a weekend thread– it’s time consuming and thoughtful on top of your real world responsibilities—-and please, more pictures, preferably your b/w imagery.

    There’s so many events going on and you season theses threads with a tasty variety of topics to chew over. And the rest of us can add our own interests freely.

    DCSCA (6fbae1)

  3. The USA Today thing is instructive about how public opinion is formed. These highly-concentrated news agencies intend to use their platforms to gaslight the public. Day in and day out repetition of things like “some men can get pregnant” — or other untrue assertions that they wish to pound home — will eventually lead to a substantial number of people thinking it must be true. Not a Big Lie but a raft of Little Lies that eventually add up.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  4. The Uvalde thing was supposed to reinforce the need for gun control but the utter incompetence of the local police actually argues the opposite. “When it’s a matter of seconds, the police are outside debating whether the door is locked.”

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  5. My VR friend is in Uvalde now. The world is moving on but the wreckage remains there, raw and festering. The first hand info shared is heart-wretching. The survivors will never heal.

    DCSCA (6fbae1)

  6. Ukrainian troops will have to withdraw from the besieged eastern city of Severodonetsk

    For $53 billion they could have bought the place back from the Russians.

    DCSCA (6fbae1)

  7. Leftist terrorist group Jane’s Revenge calls upon people to commit terrorism in a night of rage over constitutional Supreme Court decision. Leftist politicians call court ruling unjust and demand retribution.

    That includes Pelosi, Schumer and Occasional Cortex.
    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/06/24/night-rage-looms-after-scotus-decision-mccarthy-biden-prevent-violence-before-too-late/

    NJRob (b5c605)

  8. @RepKinzinger
    (R-IL): “The only reason I know to ask for a pardon is because you think you’ve committed a crime.”

    That’s not really ajustified conclusion — so is saying that taking the 5th amendment means you’re guilty — especially of anything you could be accused of.

    In the 1920s a general right to take the 5th amendment was established by lawyers for criminal groups, but once someone answers any question they could be deemed to have waived this general fear of being a target,

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  9. And Ruth didn’t send them. What a lie!

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  10. @7 GOOD! The counter-offensive should begin as soon as possible. Make it impossible for rethugliKKKans to campaign along with their campaign signs.

    asset (883c2e)

  11. Nice to know that asset has abandoned democracy for the rule of the mob. Ask Robespierre how that worked out when you see him.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  12. @11 If ameriKKKa was a democratic republic I would have know problem. 18% of the population control 52 senate seats. Trump got almost 3 million less votes then clinton but was installed as president. Biden got 9 million more votes then trump but only won by 44,000 votes az.10,000 ga. 13,000 wi. 20,000 or we would be in civil war now. Their is no democracy to abandon. My hero is John Brown not Robespierre ;but I like him and maybe AOC will emulate him.

    asset (883c2e)

  13. @11. Pfft.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsoqRvYqWDg

    ‘Look what’s happin’out in the streets;
    Got to revolution; got to revolution…’

    It’s coming. Populism is on the boil– and bureaucrats just turned up the flame under half the population who got screwed.

    ‘Hell hath no fury…’

    DCSCA (6fbae1)

  14. Third News Item:

    None of the provisions would have stopped the Buffalo, Uvalde, or El Paso mass shootings. Some of the provisions (like the juvenile record check only for adults aged 18-20) are probably unconstitutional. Let’s check back in 5 years to see if there is a statistically significant change in the number mass shootings or even plain old murder. I doubt it.

    Meh.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  15. Indiana Man Sentenced to 10 Years in Federal Prison for Possessing Unregistered Destructive Devices During Portland Protests

    An Indiana man was sentenced to federal prison today for repeatedly and intentionally jeopardizing the lives of police officers, destroying public property, and encouraging others to commit violence during protests that occurred in Portland in 2020.

    Malik Fard Muhammad, 25, was sentenced to 10 years in federal prison and three years’ supervised release.
    …….
    According to court documents, in late summer 2020, Muhammad traveled to Portland with his girlfriend from their home in Indianapolis to violently engage in area riots. On September 5, 2020, during a large civil disturbance in east Portland, demonstrators threw dangerous objects at police, including commercial grade fireworks, Molotov cocktails, and bottles. Muhammad later pleaded guilty in Multnomah County Circuit Court to seriously burning a demonstrator by throwing a Molotov cocktail and providing baseball bats to members of the crowd.
    ………
    On May 28, 2021, Muhammad was charged by criminal complaint with possession of unregistered destructive devices, engaging in civil disorder and obstructing law enforcement, and using explosives to commit a felony. Later, on June 15, 2021, a federal grand jury in Portland indicted Muhammad on the same charges. On May 28, 2022, he pleaded guilty to two counts of possessing unregistered destructive devices.

    Muhammad’s federal sentence will run concurrently with a 10-year sentence recently imposed in Multnomah County Circuit Court. Muhmmad will serve his sentence in Oregon state prison.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. The wheels of justice…..

    Pennsylvania Man Pleads Guilty to Assaulting Law Enforcement Officers During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach
    ……..
    Charles Bradford Smith, 25, of Shippensburg, Pennsylvania, pleaded guilty in the District of Columbia to conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding and assaulting, resisting, or impeding officers. According to court documents, Smith and a co-defendant, Marshall Neefe, communicated with each other and others on Facebook in the weeks preceding Jan. 6. For example, on Nov. 4, 2020, a day after Election Day, Neefe wrote to Smith, “Im getting ready to storm D.C.” The two subsequently shared their intentions and plans to travel to Washington on Jan. 6. In one message to Neefe, Smith wrote, “I can’t wait for DC!,” adding, “If it’s big enough we should all just storm the buildings … Seriously … I was talking to my Dad about how easy that would be with enough people.”

    ……..On Jan. 6, both he and Neefe entered the Capitol grounds. They both participated in pushing a large metal sign frame – at least eight feet tall and 10 feet wide — into a defensive line of officers attempting to prevent the crowd from further advancing on the west front plaza of the Capitol. Smith also encouraged rioters to keep forcing a door to the Capitol closed to keep law enforcement officers inside the building so that they could not respond to the riot unfolding outside. …..

    Neefe, 25, of Newville, Pennsylvania, pleaded guilty on May 3, 2022, to charges of conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding and assaulting, resisting, or impeding officers. He is to be sentenced on Aug. 17, 2022…….

    Smith was arrested on Sept. 13, 2021. He is to be sentenced on Sept. 23, 2022. He faces a statutory maximum of 20 years in prison on the conspiracy charge and an additional eight years in prison on the assault charge. …..
    ……..
    In the 17 months since Jan. 6, 2021, more than 840 individuals have been arrested in nearly all 50 states for crimes related to the breach of the U.S. Capitol, including over 250 individuals charged with assaulting or impeding law enforcement. The investigation remains ongoing.
    ……..

    Keep on turning ……

    Florida Man Found Guilty of Charges for Actions Related to Capitol Breach
    ………
    Jesus Rivera, 38, of Pensacola, Florida, was found guilty of entering and remaining in a restricted building or grounds; disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds; disorderly conduct in a Capitol Building; and parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol Building. The bench trial was before U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly.

    …….Rivera illegally crossed a perimeter set up by law enforcement officers and entered the Capitol grounds, initially in the area of the Northwest Lawn. He joined a crowd that surged forward towards law enforcement officers attempting to secure that area and then moved to the area of the Upper West Terrace. He encouraged the mob with shouts of, “Come on, come on.” He also posted videos while on the Capitol grounds, including one in which he declared, “My birthday is in three days, but I’ll take it as this one. Today is my f—- birthday! “……
    ……..
    …….Two of the misdemeanors carry a statutory maximum of one year, and the other two carry a statutory maximum of six months. The charges also carry potential financial penalties. …….
    ………

    And turning ……

    Delaware Men Found Guilty of Charges For Actions Related to Capitol Breach
    ……..
    Both Kevin and Hunter Seefried (father and son) were found guilty of the felony offense of obstruction of an official proceeding, and four misdemeanor offenses, including entering and remaining in a restricted building or grounds; disorderly and disruptive conduct in a Capitol Building; disorderly conduct in a Capitol Building, and parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol Building. The verdict followed a trial in the District of Columbia before U.S. District Court Judge Trevor N. McFadden. Judge McFadden acquitted Hunter Seefried of three other related charges.
    ……..
    Kevin Seefried was photographed inside the building holding a Confederate flag. While in the building, both defendants were part of a larger group of individuals who chased U.S. Capitol Police Officer Eugene Goodman and verbally confronted several U.S. Capitol Police officers near the entrance to the Senate Chambers.
    …….
    The felony charge carries a statutory maximum of 20 years in prison and potential financial penalties. The four misdemeanor offenses carry a combined statutory maximum of three years of incarceration and potential financial penalties. ……
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  17. And turning …….

    Texas Man Sentenced to One Year and One Day in Prison for Offenses Committed During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach
    ……..
    According to court documents, (Nolan B. Cooke, 24, of Savoy, Texas) joined the front lines of the riot on Jan. 6 and helped lead the charge breaking through the police line. He wore a camera around his neck and recorded videos during the day. While on the restricted grounds, Cooke was part of a crowd of individuals shoving their way through a group of U.S. Capitol Police officers, who were providing security to the Capitol on the east side of the building. While in the crowd, he yelled statements such as, “There’s a storm coming,” “We’re coming through,” and “Nothing’s holding us back.”

    Cooke ultimately climbed the steps to the Capitol and encountered more officers guarding the entrance. He made physical contact with one or more of these officers as he tried to push through the crowd. ……. Although the government has no evidence that Cooke entered the building, he committed or attempted to commit an act to obstruct, impede or interfere with one or more law enforcement officers carrying out their duties.

    …….He pleaded guilty on March 9, 2022, in the District of Columbia to a charge of civil disorder. Following his prison term, Cooke will be placed on three years of supervised release. He also must pay $2,000 in restitution.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. > About bodily autonomy and abortion

    Time for Jews to leave the US, I guess. We’re always second class citizens, or props, to Christians.

    john (cd2753)

  19. Navy petty officer charged in Capitol riot wanted to ‘wipe out’ Jews, praised Hitler, DOJ says
    ……..
    Hatchet Speed was taken into custody in McLean, Virginia, yesterday on four misdemeanor counts. According to court documents unsealed Thursday, Speed is a petty officer first class in the U.S. Naval Reserves assigned to the Naval Warfare Space Field Activity at the National Reconnaissance Office in Chantilly, Virginia……..

    In March, according to an affidavit, Speed told an undercover FBI employee he’d traveled to the Capitol on Jan. 6 with friends who are members of the Proud Boys. Speed said going to the Capitol was “always the plan,” and that he’d eventually gone inside because he was “tired of getting tear gassed.” He also said he’d heard former Vice President Mike Pence had “validated” certain ballots he considered “invalid.

    According to the affidavit, “SPEED described Pence’s act as a betrayal. SPEED stated that, at that point, he was like, ‘I’m going in there. Like I have no respect for people in this building. They have no respect for me. I have no respect for them.’”
    ……..
    In an affidavit, an FBI special agent said financial records showed Speed had purchased at least 12 firearms between Feb. 11, 2021, and May 26, 2021 – what the undercover employee said Speed suggested was “panic buying.” In total, Speed reportedly purchased more than $50,000 worth of firearms and equipment in the months after Jan. 6 at firearms stores in multiple states, including Texas, Tennessee, Florida, Missouri, Minnesota, Georgia, Idaho and Utah. During a search of his home in Virginia, agents seized eight firearms and seven suppressors. ……
    ……..
    Speed allegedly said he was reading (Eric Rudolph, the Olympic Park and abortion clinic bomber) and (Ted) Kaczynski’s writings, telling the undercover FBI employee, “So, it’s useful to get into these people’s heads and you know, try and come up with a better game plan than they had.”

    The undercover employee said Speed also repeatedly expressed anti-Semitic beliefs and praised Adolf Hitler ……. Speed also allegedly suggested going “for the people who matter,” like the Anti-Defamation League, which he criticized because of their support for a federal anti-lynching law.
    ……..
    In the affidavit, the FBI also says Speed “praised the approach of jihadists and suggested that their approach would be an effective way to ‘wipe out’ the opposition, referring to Jewish people.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  20. @15/16/17. ‘Pass the Grey Poupon’ said the Royalists. Now that C&C is in vogue and these populists have a record, next time they storm the castle against the bureaucrats- and it will happen again with populism at the boil, next time one of these Ashli Babbitt types may just shoot back. A civil war/revolution is coming, probably after I’m dead- but you can see it coming to a boil as a country in decline circles the drain.

    DCSCA (461523)

  21. Third news item

    The House sends President Biden gun violence bill:

    That’s not a gun violence bill. It’s a $12 billion subsidy to the psychiatric racket. It does nothing to prevent gun crimes. Nothing.

    nk (25a24e)

  22. Based on yesterday’s ruling and the codification of the right to bear arms, the “red flag” laws are likely unconstitutional and definitely a breach upon an individual’s right to protect himself.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  23. 2/3rds of those polled by Gallup oppose abortion after 13 weeks.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx (scroll down)

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  24. The CA “gun roster”, which has not added a new gun in a decade and will age all guns off the list in January, is certain to fall. It basically makes all handguns illegal to purchase. They don’t have the (impossible) microstamping feature. And if someone managed to invent one that worked, they’d just add some other impossible requirement (e.g. turns lead into gold).

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  25. If the crowd today breached the SC building and started torching offices, I’m sure that Biden’s DoJ would leave no stone unturned trying to find a reason not to charge them.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  26. Factbox-Broad U.S. support for abortion rights at odds with Supreme Court’s restrictions

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Supreme Court decision upending nearly a half century of legal protection for abortion rights is sharply at odds with public opinion in a country where a sizable majority of people support abortion rights.

    Here are some key takeaways on Americans’ views on abortion rights from a Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted before the Supreme Court released its decision:

    SUPPORT FOR ABORTION RIGHTS

    About 71% of Americans – including majorities of Democrats and Republicans – say decisions about terminating a pregnancy should be left to a woman and her doctor, rather than regulated by the government. But that support is not absolute: 26% of respondents polled said abortion should be legal in all cases while 10% said it should be illegal in all cases. More than half of the 4,409 respondents to the Reuters/Ipsos poll said that abortion should be legal in some cases but illegal in others.

    PARTISAN DISUNITY

    Republicans are much likelier than Democrats to support restrictions on abortion. But while Republicans in Congress overwhelmingly support crackdowns on abortion, 36% of Republican respondents to the survey said abortion should be legal in most or all cases. Similarly, 34% of Democrats think abortion should be illegal in most or all cases. A fifth of Democrats said it was too easy for women to get an abortion.

    Fri, June 24, 2022 at 7:43 AM·2 min read
    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Supreme Court decision upending nearly a half century of legal protection for abortion rights is sharply at odds with public opinion in a country where a sizable majority of people support abortion rights.

    Here are some key takeaways on Americans’ views on abortion rights from a Reuters/Ipsos poll conducted before the Supreme Court released its decision:

    SUPPORT FOR ABORTION RIGHTS

    About 71% of Americans – including majorities of Democrats and Republicans – say decisions about terminating a pregnancy should be left to a woman and her doctor, rather than regulated by the government. But that support is not absolute: 26% of respondents polled said abortion should be legal in all cases while 10% said it should be illegal in all cases. More than half of the 4,409 respondents to the Reuters/Ipsos poll said that abortion should be legal in some cases but illegal in others.

    PARTISAN DISUNITY

    Republicans are much likelier than Democrats to support restrictions on abortion. But while Republicans in Congress overwhelmingly support crackdowns on abortion, 36% of Republican respondents to the survey said abortion should be legal in most or all cases. Similarly, 34% of Democrats think abortion should be illegal in most or all cases. A fifth of Democrats said it was too easy for women to get an abortion.

    Related video: Elizabeth Warren says SCOTUS ‘extremists do not get the last word’
    Scroll back up to restore default view.
    GENDER GAP

    About three-quarters of women agreed with the statement that decisions about abortion should be left to a woman and her doctor, compared with about two-thirds of men. Some 63% of Republican women supported this statement.

    ELECTION IMPACT?

    Abortion rights will help shape the November midterm elections, which will determine control of the U.S. Congress and 36 governors’ seats. State legislatures are also in play, and the elections could factor into many state-level attempts to restrict abortion access. About 34% of respondents said Democrats had better plans for abortion policy, compared with 26% who preferred the Republican approach. The rest of respondents picked neither party or said they did not know which was better.

    * The Reuters/Ipsos poll was conducted May 16-23, online, in English, throughout the United States. It gathered responses from 4,409 adults including 2,036 Democrats, 1,637 Republicans and 530 independents. The results have a credibility interval, a measure of precision, of between 2 and 5 percentage points. – https://news.yahoo.com/factbox-broad-u-support-abortion-144344382.html

    DCSCA (461523)

  27. If the crowd today breached the SC building and started torching offices, I’m sure that Biden’s DoJ would leave no stone unturned trying to find a reason not to charge them.

    Not to worry- Leaker Alito will pee on the flames. 😉

    DCSCA (461523)

  28. re that bodily autonomy argument. I could be walking across a bridge and the bridge could fall in the water, that doesn’t mean I intended to get wet.

    Nic (896fdf)

  29. The CA “gun roster”, which has not added a new gun in a decade and will age all guns off the list in January, is certain to fall.

    As I understand it, that’s “may own”, too. The ungood guns are legal for some people, such as the po-po. Disparate treatment. Like the New York permit process. So, yes, I agree. It should fall.

    nk (25a24e)

  30. @11 The fun part is asset will be ranting against the Jan/6 violence before you know it

    frosty (09987e)

  31. @10 I think the night of rage will be all bark. Lots of posters and chanting and what not that further illustrate the need for a better mental health system and the decline of the educational system.

    frosty (09987e)

  32. Or, maybe they torch the Supreme Court building, but sadly no one is caught.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  33. Now the most vocal advocates for unfettered gun ownership are men sitting in their cars in sunglasses and baseball caps, recording themselves as they dump unhinged rants into their phones about their rights and conspiracies and socialism.

    Nichols should probably get his fat backside out of the cocktail circuit more often and talk to non-elites on a level that’s a bit more complex than placing his food order.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  34. “Now the most vocal advocates for unfettered gun ownership are men sitting in their cars in sunglasses and baseball caps, recording themselves as they dump unhinged rants into their phones about their rights and conspiracies and socialism.”

    Nonsense. Sunglasses and baseball caps? Why not just say MAGA hats?

    You’re seeing people promoted on social media, that makes them the most promoted (for whatever reason), not the most vocal.

    Maybe talk to more gun owners, almost all really haven’t changed over the past few decades, they just don’t want criminals and incompetent police (see Uvalde) to be the only ones armed.

    Obudman (2d52ed)

  35. On item 6 – yes, absolutely. And large numbers of both sides are doing it. It’s a big part of why I am losing hope.

    aphrael (5d5fb9)

  36. That’s an astonishingly dishonest representation of that article, njrob. The article talks about how many pro life organizations are afraid of these rumored attacks and quotes some of them as wondering why pelpsi and Biden are silent.

    Your synopsis implies that they are themselves calling for attacks using coded language.

    I am astonished. I would not have expected that behavior.

    aphrael (5d5fb9)

  37. On item 6 – yes, absolutely. And large numbers of both sides are doing it. It’s a big part of why I am losing hope.

    aphrael (5d5fb9) — 6/24/2022 @ 9:17 pm

    You literally, in the other thread, said that your side was going to fight to “swing the pendulum” back on your first real defeat in the culture war since the death of the ERA.

    If you want to know why things are the way they are, it’s because the left got far too comfortable in racking up win after win for 40 years. Now that the right is pushing back, suddenly everything that challenges leftist orthodoxy is a “threat to popular democracy” (which really just means marxist pretenses about how society should be shaped).

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  38. @37. Rescinding a constitutionally mandated right –a freedom… the freedom of choice– in a country with a 240 year governing history of expanding constitutional rights to the citizenry, isn’t a win to charcaterize as ‘the right pushing back’– unless your Leiterhosen und brownshirts need dry cleaned after a night of book burning.

    DCSCA (2998cb)

  39. @37. Rescinding a constitutionally mandated right –a freedom… the freedom of choice– in a country with a 240 year governing history of expanding constitutional rights to the citizenry, isn’t a win to charcaterize as ‘the right pushing back’– unless your Leiterhosen und brownshirts need dry cleaned after a night of book burning.

    DCSCA (2998cb) — 6/24/2022 @ 10:23 pm

    Pfft. Marxist historic determinism doesn’t apply to reality. After 50 years, your side STILL can’t get more than 25% support for abortion on demand. Talk about a cherry on top of the L.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  40. @39. My side? Don’t give a damn about abortion. The issue is rescinding a constitutionally mandated right; a freedom; the freedom of choice; under a governance where the 240 year arc of history has been expanding constitutional rights to the citizenry. That ended today. And it will be just that easier to rescind the next right, then the next and so on. That’s the tragedy.

    DCSCA (2998cb)

  41. @39. My side? Don’t give a damn about abortion.

    @37. Rescinding a constitutionally mandated right –a freedom… the freedom of choice

    Yes, you’re very disinvested in it. And parroting the same argument doesn’t make it any more factual.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  42. @41. parroting the same argument doesn’t make it any more factual.

    Except it is.

    DCSCA (2998cb)

  43. California’s water situation worsens:

    California’s two largest reservoirs are at critically low levels, signaling that the state, like much of the US west, can expect a searing, dry summer ahead.

    This week, officials confirmed that Lake Oroville, the state’s second-largest reservoir, was at just 55% of its total capacity when it reached its highest level for the year last month. Meanwhile, Shasta Lake, California’s largest reservoir, was at 40% capacity last month – after the state endured its driest start to a year since the late 19th century.

    This year, millions in the state are already subject to unprecedented water restrictions and many in rural areas are expecting their wells to run dry within months, if not weeks.

    “I feel I might have become a bit numb to both the numerical records and then the scenes of drought,” said John Abatzoglou, a climatologist at the University of California, Merced. “And that just reflects how rough the last three years have been for the state.”

    Officials at the State Water Project announced earlier this year that it would only be able to provide 5% of requested water supplies to its contractors. The federal project, meanwhile, announced it wouldn’t be providing any water to the state’s agricultural belt, and that cities would be allocated only 25% of their historical water use.

    The low water allocations will force farmers to either fallow their fields, or rely more on diminishing groundwater reserves, said Heather Cooley, research director at the non-profit Pacific Institute. The implications will trickle down to rural residents across California, many of whom have seen household wells tap out in recent years, she said.

    It seems that the state’s push for mandated units built per city to ease the housing shortage will only compound matters. If there is limited supply of water, where will the estimated 1,000 or 5,000 or 10,000 new residents to a city/county get their water from? There is a tipping point where resources are so limited as to make it unreasonable to force regions to build more housing units.

    It would not surprise me at all if the next war our state/country faces is over water.

    Dana (1225fc)

  44. I could be walking across a bridge and the bridge could fall in the water, that doesn’t mean I intended to get wet.
    Nic (896fdf) — 6/24/2022 @ 5:33 pm

    it means you intended to take the risk of the bridge falling and you getting wet

    JF (248df2)

  45. @Dana@43 A hidden thing that is happening with groundwater that I don’t think most people know about is that as we draw it down, we start to reach levels where the level of various solutes (stuff dissolved in the water) reach unsafe levels for drinking and cities/towns that used to use ground water have to supplement or replace with reservoir water. (also, IDK what is in the water in the mid/south Central Valley- no, I do, it’s pesticides probably-, but it makes me physically ill and I had to buy 5 gallon jugs of water when I lived there)

    Nic (896fdf)

  46. Except it is.

    DCSCA (2998cb) — 6/24/2022 @ 10:46 pm

    Except it isn’t.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  47. @JF@44 Oh, yeah, my buddy? He couldn’t make it because he intended to get in a car intentional instead. Yep, Jim fell off the roof in his home improvement intentional. The bathroom really is the least safe room in your house, with all the injuries you intend to get by showering and having an intentional.

    Nic (896fdf)

  48. @8 “That’s not really ajustified conclusion — so is saying that taking the 5th amendment means you’re guilty — especially of anything you could be accused of.”

    and also requesting immunity in exchange for testimony

    in any case, after seventeen months kinzinger and his democrat friends have yet to see any of those pardon seekers get indicted

    put up or shut up

    JF (248df2)

  49. It would not surprise me at all if the next war our state/country faces is over water.

    Over the last few decades, the state has proposed plans for new reservoirs in the desert, then abandoned those plans every time, due to envoironmental concerns. There is always some lizard or some such.

    The first sad truth is that NO WATER is its own envorinmental concern, with countless species put at risk in each drought. The second sad truth is that no one ever had to file an environmental impact statement for doing nothing.

    Doing noting always wins. Then they wonder what happened. Again.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  50. Nic (896fdf) — 6/24/2022 @ 11:50 pm

    or getting up on your roof putting up your own holiday lights intentional, instead of hiring someone?

    was being an actuary one of those career choices you crossed off starting from middle school?

    JF (248df2)

  51. Except it is.

    We obviously need to send DCSCA to the Argument Clinic.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  52. @51. We obviously need to send Kevin to a pub in Putney:

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9fly1

    DCSCA (497ce1)

  53. @46. Except it isn’t.

    {Pfft. Except it is. FWO. 1 + 1 = 2. Not 11.

    ‘Da Nile’ be a river in Egypt.

    DCSCA (497ce1)

  54. @JF@50 Are you saying that all those red blooded Americans who put their lights up the day after Thanksgiving like normal human beings instead of paying someone else to do it deserve to get hurt? (seriously, you pay someone else to put your Christmas lights up?)

    Nic (896fdf)

  55. 55. Positive ripple effects of recent elections:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-school-board-votes-132508142.html

    urbanleftbehind (d5b707)

  56. @47 Are you arguing that the chance of getting pregnant is so low as to be considered an accident on par with a bridge collapsing? I would think the number of people you encounter and the number of successful bridge crossings that happen on a daily would make that a hard position to hold.

    The falling off the roof one is the worst example because, yes, if you climb up on your roof you should take extra precautions. If you climb higher than 3’ on a ladder you should take extra precautions but most people ignore them.

    frosty (6844fa)

  57. @54 That’s not how “intent” and “deserve” work and this switch up is a bit disingenuous. If you want to argue that people shouldn’t be responsible for the inevitable consequences of their choices there have to be better options than poor analogies or denying basic facts or appeals to emotion.

    My favorite part of the pro-choice position, and it was one of the things that convinced me that at least some of them know they’re morally wrong, is the constant claims of victim status.

    frosty (6844fa)

  58. @ Nic,

    @Dana@43 A hidden thing that is happening with groundwater that I don’t think most people know about is that as we draw it down, we start to reach levels where the level of various solutes (stuff dissolved in the water) reach unsafe levels for drinking and cities/towns that used to use ground water have to supplement or replace with reservoir water. (also, IDK what is in the water in the mid/south Central Valley- no, I do, it’s pesticides probably-, but it makes me physically ill and I had to buy 5 gallon jugs of water when I lived there)

    Interestingly, I am aware of this because I have recently been involved in a project wherein a 100-year-old heritage grove was on the chopping block, and in my research with various foundations and experts, I learned that Chilean fertilizer was commonly used in the 30’s-50’s in this region, and over the decades it seeped into the groundwater and could render it dangerous to drink. While there are now cleaner fertilizers being used and environmental standards that must be met to protect water sources, that wasn’t always the case and those effects can still be seen, depending on the duration and quantities used.

    Of concern during this drought, has been water hogging by wealthy residents in such exclusive enclaves like Montecito, where plenty of residents can afford to drill their own wells:

    County Supervisor Das Williams …appeared on the Today Show to spread awareness about Montecito’s supply of groundwater. “… This issue is much bigger to me than any one person or property,” he later wrote in a Facebook post with the video clip, adding that unmetered “private wells is a serious concern for every resident of the county, especially in areas like Montecito where private wells share the same aquifer that the public relies on.”

    Dana (1225fc)

  59. My favorite part of the pro-choice position, and it was one of the things that convinced me that at least some of them know they’re morally wrong, is the constant claims of victim status.

    The pro-choice individuals see themselves as victims? Or do you mean that pro-choice individuals see women who get abortions as victims?

    Dana (1225fc)

  60. My two favorite cartoons from the Politico collection this week are this one and
    this one.

    (If you would like to know more about how political cartoons have changed our history, you might like John Adler’s “Doomed by Cartoon: How Cartoonist Thomas Nast and the New York Times Brought Down Boss Tweed and His Ring of Thieves”.

    Thomas Nast)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  61. @59 They assert victim status for the women who, they claim, can’t get abortions in a variety of hypotheticals. That then lays the groundwork for a blaming the victim charge and an implication that pro-lifers are on shaky moral ground because they’re in favor of this consequence as some sort of punishment.

    You can see this in the assertion that fewer abortions will physically harm women.

    Most abortions aren’t done out of some medical concern for women. They are done by women who’ve been told they don’t have to worry about the consequences of their sexual activity. They’re done out of a financial concern.

    frosty (09987e)

  62. Aphrael,

    You can listen to or read what Pelosi, Schumer ans their ilk said for themselves. Inciting, talking about rights stripped away, holding people accountable, they are responsible for the consequences.

    It is easy to find.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=schumer+remarks.on+roe.overturn&t=brave&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DiamAYoyGoqo

    NJRob (81c6a3)

  63. One, there’s a word for those commenters who complain about a blogger not writing about their preferred topics: Immature.

    Two, looks like the Gannett newsrooms are having the cancel-culture issues as the wokey staff at the NYT and WaPo. There’s a word for that, too: Disappointing.

    Three, the word for Antonov and Russian leadership is delusional, for their whole take on Ukraine. Somehow, Patriarch Krill’s incident is fitting, the guy who blessed a nuclear-bomb carrying missile that was named Satan.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  64. Here’s agood news story form the Isle of Skye:

    A wedding nightmare wound up turning into a Celtic dream when, after a plane-load of problems, the local community on the majestic Isle of Skye decided to lend a hand to the visiting betrothed.

    Planning to leave a solid, four-day cushion between their flight and their big day on Skye, in the Scottish Hebrides, Florida’s Amanda and Paul Riesel suffered every problem in the airline company playbook—including several delays, a cancelation or two, and lost luggage.
    . . . .
    Enter Rosie Woodhouse, the wedding photographer. Getting word of their difficulties, and that without everything but their rings, they were close to giving up on their long-planned Skye wedding, she felt she had to do something.

    And she, with her friends, did everything Amanda and Paul needed done. With that start, I think they can look forward to a long and happy life together.

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  65. @59 The issue of intent is what undermines the abortion argument without resorting to a religious argument. The claims of victim status is what tells you some pro-choice people know they don’t have a good argument.

    frosty (09987e)

  66. That’s excellent, nk!

    Dana (1225fc)

  67. Here is the Soviet Constitution of 1936, popularly known as the Stalin Constitution. Just read Chapter X : Fundamental Rights and Duties of Citizens. (Spit-take warning!)

    And then think about the game of Go Fish your slave-owning, genocidal, land-snatching forefathers left you, for you to argue over its rules, while your government keeps people locked up for years without trial or bail and its thugs burn babies’ faces off with flashbangs without any personal consequences to them and that’s not even near the worst of the things it does.

    nk (80a403)

  68. Thank you, Dana, and now I’m sorry I went sour with my next comment. It’s the sunspot!

    nk (80a403)

  69. 1. it’s putin’s fault
    2. it’s republicans’ fault
    3. it’s tucker’s fault that nobody believes 1 and 2

    with that out of the way… anything else going on?

    JF (868fbd)

  70. A bit of sanity, even in Seattle? Danny Westneat, a columnist for the Seattle Times, and a partisan Democrat, raised what the June 11th headline called a “difficult question”.

    Voters in Seattle want stronger gun control — but they have been cutting back the very police force which would have to enforce any new gun control laws.

    (Seattle’s very own Trotskyite, Kshama Sawant, thinks Westneat is a “conservative”. )

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  71. Should Arredondo be charged with multiple counts of involuntary manslaughter?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  72. think about the game of Go Fish your slave-owning, genocidal, land-snatching forefathers left you

    Speak for yourself. My forefathers were held as serfs on their own Irish land until well after the slaves were freed here.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  73. Hmm. I dunno. Scott Peterson, the Broward Coward, has been charged with criminal neglect of children in his care.

    For involuntary manslaughter in Uvalde, I can see a better case against the cops who forcibly kept parents from going into the school to rescue their children. And even more so against the ones who kept the husband of one teacher who was killed, himself an armed off-duty police officer, from going in.

    nk (e5c287)

  74. @frosty@56 I’m saying that having sex isn’t indicative of an attempt to get pregnant. Most of the time when people have sex they don’t intend to get pregnant.

    @Dana@58 That sounds like an interesting project to have worked on!

    Nic (896fdf)

  75. @75 Wishful thinking and bad decisions don’t change the biology. It is a risk and it’s a greater risk than your crossing a bridge example. Spontaneous pregnancies are uncommon.

    Gambler’s don’t intend to lose. Does that mean they should get their money back?

    frosty (10827b)

  76. @frosty@77 Most of the time when people have sex not only do they not intend to get pregnant, they don’t get pregnant.

    (Do we really want to talk about the morality of the gambling industry?)

    Nic (896fdf)

  77. “You shouldn’t legislate morality”

    ‘Legislating morality is to enact laws in an attempt to bring legal code into line with a moral system. In the context of abortion, same sex marriage and other social issues, some theists want to legislate their own morality. In many cases, it treats the moral system of a specific religion above all others and can be counter to secularism. Attempting to legislate morality raises the question: whose morality should we use? Also, there are moral principles that probably should not be enshrined in law, such as adultery or religious dietary laws. Perhaps people should regulate their own behavior and not seek to impose it in law i.e. abortion is a personal matter, or at least between that single individual and God.’

    http://religions.wiki/index.php/You_shouldn%27t_legislate_morality

    DCSCA (4f9c6a)

  78. @78 This is largely because of contraceptives. There widespread use indicates that pregnancy is a risk and that it’s widely understood to be so.

    The gambling industry is more honest than the abortion industry and isn’t responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of babies every year.

    frosty (21cd7e)

  79. Legislating morality is just as much a Woke enterprise as it is a religious one.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  80. Here in New Mexico, a lot of sewer outflow is now processed, then injected into the aquifer.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  81. This one is right on the money.

    nk (80a403) — 6/25/2022 @ 7:56 am

    I literally laughed out loud. That rendering of Tucker Carlson is spot on!

    norcal (da5491)

  82. “You can’t legislate morality” is nonsensical mouthing by people who are all mouth and no sense. There are few laws with no ethical or moral basis. The opposite is more true: Legal codes evolve into moral codes.

    nk (e5c287)

  83. Here in New Mexico, a lot of sewer outflow is now processed, then injected into the aquifer.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 6/25/2022 @ 4:24 pm

    I’ve heard that the Facebook data center in Los Lunas does something like this, because their facility uses a ton of groundwater.

    Las Vegas has been doing the same thing for a long time as well. I’m not sure where their usage stats are currently, but the city has rights to about 300K acre feet from the Colorado River. 20 years ago, they were using about 500K, and injecting the delta back in to Lake Mead as effluent.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  84. Most of the time when people have sex they don’t intend to get pregnant.

    Nic (896fdf) — 6/25/2022 @ 2:21 pm

    Just most of the time? I’ve never had sex with the intention of impregnation. 😛

    norcal (da5491)

  85. @84. “You can’t legislate morality” is nonsensical mouthing by people who are all mouth and no sense. There are few laws with no ethical or moral basis. The opposite is more true: Legal codes evolve into moral codes.

    … said Cicero businessman, entrepreneur and connoisseur of fine, distilled beverages … Alphonse Capone.

    Und Der Bingle: 😉

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjFyX2sSTGs

    DCSCA (a78721)

  86. Miller: President Trump… I want to thank you for the historic victory for white life in the Supreme Court yesterday

    https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1540852015693037568

    Lol. Lmao.

    Davethulhu (763837)

  87. Gas is so high that Dolly Parton is now carpooling with Jolene.

    norcal (da5491)

  88. @88 not sure who miller is but it doesn’t sound like he knows how to use google to lookup statistics

    frosty (cd9b1d)

  89. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/06/congratulations-youre-fired.php

    About as horrific a situation as a lawyer can imagine. They vigorously defended their client, won the case of a lifetime and are told to get rid of all clients including the one that they won or lose their job. So they left the firm.

    The left won’t allow people to defend their rights.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  90. I hope that Clement gets a huge payout. This is a constructive dismissal and they need to buy his partnership out.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  91. Mary Miller (R-IL). Notable for saying on Jan 5 “Hitler was right on one thing. He said whoever has the youth, has the future.”

    Davethulhu (763837)

  92. Dana
    I know Das Williams and he is OK personally but is really one of those Democrats that starts out at a non profit, activist, moves on the City office, county office, state office back loses in primary for House seat. When we meet, I’m cordial and tolerant, but wouldn’t want to see him in any office This is an old article but here is the money quote for Das.
    “In 2011, the Montecito Water District obtained approximately 82% of its water from the Santa Ynez River System, 4% from the State Water Project, 11% from Doulton Tunnel intrusion and relied on the Montecito Groundwater Basin for 3% of its yearly production needs. Review of water quality for recently tested MWD wells shows no quality degradation when compared to previous years. Studies also indicate that seawater intrusion is not a significant problem in the basin. It is thought that deeper aquifers of the basin are protected from seawater intrusion by an impermeable offshore fault. However, some encroachment of seawater might occur in shallower aquifers during periods of heavy pumping such as during the early 1960s”

    Other articles put the groundwater number at 10-15% which is both correct and incorrect. Correct in that the Doulton Tunnel is considered ground water, incorrect as to that water being from the “Montecito Groundwater basin”. Montecito built Juncal dam on the other side of the Santa Ynez range forming Jameson Lake. To access the water in that dam, part of the project was drilling the Doulton Tunnel through the Santa Ynez range to Juncal Dam/Jameson Lake. Fully 11% of Montecito’s water is recovered water that has percolates down through the fractured rocks in the mountain and drips, flows into the Doulton Tunnel. Montecito is too rocky to see much if any subsidence.

    Side note to Doulton Tunnel. In 1969 a long storm dropped 27 inches of rain at Juncal Dam as measured by Mr. Willian Brooks shortly before he and his wife were swept away when their tenders cabin washed away. The rescue operation was mounted through the Tunnel because all Santa Ynez access was under ongoing flooding. The tunnel itself had a gangway which was barely above water. The rescue crew found Mrs. Brooks alive in a tree, suffering from exposure. Mr. Brooks to my knowlege was not recovered

    steveg (8b02aa)

  93. On that article about Oprah, that water is not worth the MWD drilling for it because they have to drill the well, pump the water into a pipe to their treatment facility.
    For that to be worth while the well has to be a heavy producer. There are deeper better pockets in the basin and Oprah’s estate is over one of them.
    I have a client that has three wells on a large parcel plus rights to a horizonatal well tunneled into the mountains. The three wells are all around 700′ deep. One produces 9 GPM for 12 hours a day. the other two each produce about 30gpm 12 Hours a day. The wells cost over 200K each to drill. A nearby neighbor drilled to 800′ less than 400 yards away and got nothing. I’ve had some of the water, its sulphurous tasting and has a metallic bitterness to it. Its not considered potable, but it won’t kill you – right away
    It isn’t cost effective for Montecito Water District to drill for an extra 20,000 gallons a day . Its cheaper to buy it via paying a water rights holder in the Central valley for his/her shares of the Kern or Kings Aqueduct(s) and not to farm.

    steveg (8b02aa)

  94. steveg,

    Were you by chance a consultant on the movie Chinatown? 😁

    norcal (da5491)

  95. Mostly because no one else mentioned it, I think that the Miranda decision was the correct one. It doesn’t make the inadmissible admissible, it just says that it’s not a tort if the warning is late or forgotten.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  96. Dana– FWIW, I think you do a helluva fine job listing a variety of topic for a weekend thread– it’s time consuming and thoughtful on top of your real world responsibilities—-and please, more pictures, preferably your b/w imagery.

    There’s so many events going on and you season theses threads with a tasty variety of topics to chew over. And the rest of us can add our own interests freely.

    DCSCA (6fbae1) — 6/24/2022 @ 1:51 pm

    Happy to take the rare opportunity to agree with DCSCA.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  97. https://theaspenbeat.com
    Great news.

    mg (8cbc69)

  98. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/cdc-recommends-covid-19-vaccines-babies-kids-under-5-6-things-parents-need-know

    A rather powerful, dissenting opinion on giving kids the COVID shot based on data from the actual study.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  99. https://redstate.com/mike_miller/2022/06/25/defense-secretary-lloyd-austin-makes-ridiculous-pledge-in-response-to-roe-ruling-n584112

    Lloyd Austin should’ve been fired ages ago, but for the Sec of Defense to commit to violating the law he should be canned immediately.

    NJRob (3dbda4)

  100. @102
    *chortles in Hyde Amendment*

    whembly (7e0293)

  101. Happy to take the rare opportunity to agree with DCSCA.
    lurker (cd7cd4) — 6/25/2022 @ 11:39 pm

    Same here!

    felipe (484255)

  102. 93… literally Hitler, Cthulhu !

    Colonel Haiku (dae905)

  103. I realize Jan6 happened over an election and in the sacred time where we Americans try to tranfer power peacefully. A message on these boundaries needs to be sent loud and clear to both sides.
    One thing I’ve noticed is that a wing of the Democrats throw riotous tantrums over seemingly everything now.
    The best news coming out today is that Democrats who lectured us all about pronouns and endless stripes of gender have narrowed it back down to men and women.

    steveg (4ecb30)

  104. Adam Schiff and others on the committee say it was an attempted coup and it was close. It wasn’t close at all. In fact, as one of their witnesses said, I think Rusty Bowers, one thing they did reminded him of “the gang that couldn’t shoot straight.”

    Sammy Finkelman (c89e81)

  105. DeSantis Tied With Trump for 2024 GOP Presidential Nomination in NH; Runs Better Against Biden Than Trump 6/22/2022

    Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is now statistically tied with Former President Donald Trump in the New Hampshire Republican Primary. Support for DeSantis has more than doubled since October. DeSantis runs better against Biden than does Trump, a further sign of Trump’s weakening support among NH Republicans. Biden and Trump are increasingly unpopular in New Hampshire and only about half of members of each of their own parties want them to run for President in 2024. Other potential 2024 presidential candidates such as Vice President Kamala Harris, former Vice President Mike Pence, and Texas Senator Ted Cruz are also broadly unpopular in the state.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (c0b43b)

  106. https://nypost.com/2022/06/23/usa-today-demoted-me-for-a-tweet-because-the-companys-woke-newsrooms-are-out-of-touch-with-readers/

    A good explanation for why it seems our press is so out of touch with America.

    NJRob (3dbda4)

  107. @106 at least for a few days. Don’t expect consistency

    frosty (509433)

  108. @108 if DT were smart he’d decline to run. Running and winning means he’d be back in the hot seat. Running and losing means he also loses some of the free real estate he has in the minds of D’s and NeverTrump. If he continues his man behind the curtain routine he can play wizard of oz for a while.

    frosty (509433)

  109. TRUMP REMAINS IN CONTROL OF THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION; PENCE MAKING HIS MOVE! IF TRUMP BOWS OUT IT IS BETWEEN PENCE AND DESANTIS

    Even though former President Donald Trump has yet to officially announce his 2024 presidential candidacy, he still dominates the GOP as a kingmaker and the most recognizable name in Republican politics. With Trump in the race for the GOP nomination, he receives a majority (54%) of votes from Republican primary voters, which is four to one more than the next most popular candidate, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis (12%), with former Vice President Mike Pence nipping at DeSantis’ heels with 10%.

    No other candidate received support within the margin in the error, including Senators Ted Cruz-TX (4%) and Marco Rubio-FL (3%), former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley (4%), former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo (2%), current Texas Governor Greg Abbott (1%) and “someone else” (1%). One in ten Republican primary voters were not sure.
    ……..
    …….. With Trump out of the race, it becomes a dog fight between the two conservatives-Former Vice President Mike Pence (23%) and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis (27%). Senator Ted Cruz is the only other candidate to receive double digit support with 12%. No other candidate polled within the margin of error, except for “someone else,” while 15% of Republican primary were not sure.
    ………

    Poll details.

    Rip Murdock (c0b43b)

  110. Dr. Oz is in serious trouble in Pennsylvania
    ……..
    …….. (T)here’s no way to absorb this AARP poll and not come away thinking the GOP is at dire risk of losing this seat in a national environment in which they shouldn’t be losing anywhere that’s remotely competitive. Ask yourself where you’d expect a generic Republican candidate to be polling in Pennsylvania knowing that Biden’s job approval there looks like this:
    ……….
    (Oz is) down double digits in net favorability in every demographic except Republicans and he’s not lighting up the scoreboard with them either. Somehow, despite months of rising inflation and soaring gas prices, Oz’s favorable rating is worse than Biden’s approval rating. Fetterman, meanwhile, pulls a 46/36 overall favorability and is +80 net within his own party in contrast to Oz’s +15 among Republicans.

    Put it all together and Fetterman leads, 50/44. Again, that’s not doom — especially when we remember how pollsters lowballed Republican support in 2020 — but even a strong Democratic candidate has no business leading (let alone reaching 50 percent) in a swing-state Senate race in the year of a Republican tsunami. Oz is just a bad, unpopular candidate, likely too centrist for MAGA fans, too Trumpy for Democrats, too sketchy from his years of new-age TV doctoring for undecideds, and too much of a carpetbagger for everyone.

    …….. Last week a Suffolk poll showed Fetterman leading Oz, 46/37, broadly in line with today’s results. There too Oz was fantastically unpopular, rating 28/50 in favorability compared to Fetterman’s 45/27. Maybe Oz’s numbers will improve as lingering hard feelings from Dave McCormick and Kathy Barnette voters soften over time, bringing some Republicans back into the fold following a tough primary.
    ……..

    Related:

    Kathy Barnette rejects Oz’s claim that ‘all’ his former rivals have endorsed him
    ………
    Oz is trying to unite the Republican base after winning the bruising multi-candidate primary with about 31.2% of the vote. In an appearance on Fox on Tuesday, after a host mentioned an opinion poll that showed Oz trailing his Democratic opponent, Pennsylvania Lt. Gov. John Fetterman, by 9 percentage points, Oz spoke of the importance of Republican unity and said, “All of the Senate candidates that I was competing against have endorsed me. The party rapidly unifies.”
    ……..
    ……… While Oz has been endorsed by three of the four other major candidates from the May primary — second-place finisher David McCormick (who received about 31.1% of the vote), fourth-place Carla Sands (about 5.5%) and fifth-place Jeff Bartos (about 5%) — Oz has not been endorsed by third-place Kathy Barnette, who received about 24.7% of the vote.

    “No, I have not endorsed Oz. He knows that,” Barnette said in an interview on Tuesday. She said she wasn’t surprised “the truth may elude them sometimes” given how, she said, “they lied about me” during the campaign.

    That’s not all she had to say about Oz. She added that about 70% of Republicans “voted against him” despite his endorsement from former President Donald Trump. She argued that “Donald Trump won this election for Oz; it wasn’t Oz.” And though she said that she was open to eventually endorsing and campaigning for Oz, she also said, “I have a lot of issues with Oz and who he presented himself to be.”
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (c0b43b)

  111. I give Trump full credit for the judicial appointments. Lower courts and Supreme Court. He could not have done it without McConnell, but McConnell would not have done it without Trump. Trump’s supporters were the lit fire under McConnell. Both giving him uplift and goading his behind.

    nk (c1183c)

  112. Incidentally, here’s a link to the DHS terrorism advisory. You can decide for yourself if the sources that have been flogging it have been truthful in their representation of it’s contents.

    https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/ntas/alerts/22_0607_S1_NTAS-Bulletin_508.pdf

    Davethulhu (763837)

  113. @111. if DT were smart he’d decline to run. Running and winning means he’d be back in the hot seat.

    ROFLMAOPIP. Have you seen his signature? A master of attention getter and consummate showman who honed his talents in the media capital of the planet and relishes being “the straw that stirs the drink” won’t dodge the center ring of the circus. Especially when he has the Wilmington clown act to follow… or is it Scranton this week.

    DCSCA (2239ca)

  114. Flogging what ‘thulu?

    NJRob (3e22fa)

  115. The world is making progress against COVID; a new study shows what a powerful weapon the vaccines have been, in the first year of their use:

    COVID-19 vaccines reduced the potential global death toll during the pandemic by more than half in the year following their implementation, according to estimates from a mathematical modeling study published on June 23, 2022, in The Lancet Infectious Diseases.

    19.8 million out of a potential 31.4 million COVID-19 deaths were prevented worldwide in the first year of the vaccination program according to estimates based on excess deaths from 185 countries and territories.

    The researchers say we could have done even better if there had been more vaccinations.

    This success, most of it elsewhere, has made COVID less dangerous to us, here in the United States. The fewer people who get it, the less chance the virus has to come up with still more variants.

    (Anti-vaxxers like RFK, Jr. won’t applaud this success; sadly, most won’t even admit that it has happened.)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  116. A friend in Pennsylvania tells me that he has seen an “Oz for New Jersey” bumper sticker, making the point that Mehmet doesn’t live in Pennsylvania, now. Oh, and he is a dual citizen, the US and Turkey. (He has promised to give up his Turkish citizenship if he wins.)

    He is, as most Turks are, a Muslim. (As far as I know there is not a big Muslim vote in Pennsylvania.)

    I don’t know if any reporter has asked him about the Armenian genocide, a sore subject for most Turks.

    All in all, he does not seem like the best choice to hold the seat for the Republican Party.

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  117. And his middle name is Genghis.

    nk (c1183c)

  118. If any this unit survived, I think an exchange program with the City of Uvalde might be a good idea.

    urbanleftbehind (d5b707)

  119. Two weeks ago I was gonna cockblock for Darren Bailey, but I think I’m gonna miss that unimpeded access along I-55 and I-57 too much to take any chances…wonder if the “R for a Day” squadrons in Illinois will change the planned vote.

    urbanleftbehind (d5b707)

  120. Two weeks ago I was gonna vote for Darren Bailey, but I think I’m gonna miss that unimpeded access along I-55 and I-57 too much to take any chances…wonder if the “R for a Day” squadrons in Illinois will change the planned vote.

    urbanleftbehind (d5b707)

  121. Jim, I am not seeing that your 12:45 was peer reviewed:

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00320-6/fulltext#section-3d6acba1-acea-4be2-8dc9-b7e14e5b6583

    It certainly has non-biased funding.
    Let me know if I skipped over the peer reviewed distinction when I scanned the study. Apologies in advance if I did.

    BuDuh (340919)

  122. All in all, he does not seem like the best choice to hold the seat for the Republican Party.

    Perhaps. But he is the only choice to do so.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  123. Senator in 2010 deposition: 13-year-olds can consent to sex
    Before he became a leading voice for conservative causes on Capitol Hill, U.S. Senator James Lankford spent more than a decade as the director of youth programming at the Falls Creek Baptist Conference Center, a sprawling campground about 80 miles south of Oklahoma City that attracts more than 50,000 campers in grades six through 12 each year.
    ……..
    In 2009, while Lankford worked at the camp, the family of a 13-year-old girl sued a 15-year-old boy who was alleged to have had sex with her at the camp. Lankford, who was not in Congress at the time, is not alleged to have had any direct knowledge of the alleged assault, has not been accused of any wrongdoing and was not a defendant in the lawsuit, which was settled for an undisclosed amount before it was scheduled to go to trial.

    But in a 2010 deposition in the case, given a week after he was elected to his first term in the U.S. House, Lankford testified that he believed a 13-year-old could consent to sex.

    “Yes, I think they can,” Lankford told Kenyatta Bethea, a lawyer for the girl’s family, according a 155-page transcript of the deposition obtained by The Associated Press.

    The age of consent in Oklahoma is 16, and although there is an exception in the law for minors between the ages of 14 and 17 who have sexual contact, there is no provision under which a 13-year-old could consent to sex. When Bethea pressed if his answer was still the same “if I ask you that question in terms of your position as a father,” Lankford maintained his stance.

    “Yes, they can,” he said.

    Under additional questioning about whether he would allow his two daughters to consent to sex at the age of 13, Lankford gave a more expansive answer.

    “No, I would not encourage that at all,” he said. “Could she make that choice? I hope she would not, but I would not encourage that in any way with my own daughter.”
    ……..
    Aly Beley, a spokeswoman for Lankford’s reelection campaign, declined to comment for this story.
    ……….

    Lankford is favored to win his primary. Ewww!

    Rip Murdock (c0b43b)

  124. MAGAWORLD makes excuses for Lankford.

    Rip Murdock (c0b43b)

  125. @BuDah@124 “All original research articles published in the Lancet journals have undergone independent, external peer review, including statistical review. A research article is usually peer reviewed by three clinical or subject-based experts and a statistical reviewer.”

    Most professional journals include their peer review policy with the journal publication policies rather than article by article.

    Nic (896fdf)

  126. DIMWORLD makes excuses for every insane policy they support, every act of violence they perpetrate, every business they burn to the ground, every LEO they injure, maim or cause the death of.

    I’d like to hear their excuses for not “codifying” Roe during Obama’s Reign of Error, when they had full majorities. Or Biden not getting it done as he’d promised to do if elected during the 2020 campaign.
    Truth is they always wanted to use it as a divisive issue.

    Colonel Haiku (7783d9)

  127. Re: Lankford, for MAGA to back this guy when they are hysterical about “groomers” hiding behind every potted plant, pizza joint, or even operating in plain sight, it’s a hoot to see them go to bat for Lankford and vote for him as well. Unbelievable. This is another one of those party before everything else moments. This is going to be mindset has started to be the undoing of the GOP. They continue to welcome Trump as their titular head, and now Lankford (and in between, you name it). The GOP deserves to be shamed.

    Dana (1225fc)

  128. Langford, along with former OKC mayor Mick Cornett, are kinda sorta the moderate Lindsey Graham counterpart wing of the OK GOP.

    urbanleftbehind (90a6c5)

  129. Also, I guess it would be important to know whether they were discussing a 13 yr old consenting to sex with another minor or an adult.

    Dana (1225fc)

  130. The questions seemed pretty direct, as is the fact 13-year olds cannot consent to sex under any circumstances in OK.

    Rip Murdock (c0b43b)

  131. The GOP deserves to be shamed.

    supporters of creepy joe seem really weirded out by lankford

    JF (e60b17)

  132. Time to move along

    …said the Big Orange Dog to the ideological conservative fleas brushed out of his tail. 😉

    DCSCA (a10503)

  133. That’s messed up, in Staten f’in Island of all places…

    https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/ex-nyc-mayor-rudy-giuliani-215448382.html

    urbanleftbehind (d5b707)

  134. After all, the Second Amendment guarantees an “individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation,” Heller, 554 U. S., at 592, and confrontation can surely take place outside the home.

    Although we remarked in Heller that the need for armed self-defense is perhaps “most acute” in the home, id., at 628, we did not suggest that the need was insignificant elsewhere. Many Americans hazard greater danger outside the home than in it. See Moore v. Madigan, 702 F. 3d 933, 937 (CA7 2012) (“[A] Chicagoan is a good deal more likely to beattacked on a sidewalk in a rough neighborhood than in his apartment on the 35th floor of the Park Tower”). The text of the Second Amendment reflects that reality. [Emphasis added.]
    Justice Thomas.

    Wish d.c. had more men like Thomas.

    mg (8cbc69)

  135. Now, I have been an opinion journalist for 30 years — I thought I was authorized to have opinions. The idea that women are the ones who get pregnant has gone from scientific fact to opinion to outright falsehood in the blink of an eye.

    In an unpermitted opinion, and there are some. We all agree on that. It’s to be expected that some people will try to move some opinions into the unpermitted category.

    It’s kind of arbitrary. You can find no source that will elucidate what is out of the question to state and what is out of the question to disagree with. It’s all ad hoc.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  136. Re; Havana syndrome. It;s probably being done by a number of countries and is limited by the fact that it is applies to very small area and requires training and skill to use. It is operated from a mobile van and there is, or was, at least one such device in the United States. They have not caught anyone in the act and are probably not even trying yet.

    Use requires information from moles and it’s main purpose is to take some U.S. government people out of the picture and it probably relies on spies to help in targeting.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  137. Another good decision by the Supreme Court this AM on the Bremerton high school coach.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  138. @141. Supreme Court says public school officials can pray openly

    https://www.axios.com/2022/06/27/religion-prayer-public-school-supreme-court-ruling

    Pray they teach STEM as well as how to spin and run, punt, pass and kick.

    DCSCA (df7d2c)

  139. It’s in line with the school voucher case. “We’ve got your wall of separation right here!”

    nk (18ae23)

  140. at least this is in line with DCSCA’s theory of the historical expansion of rights. silver linings all around.

    frosty (e06071)

  141. 64% Think The January 6 Attack On The Capitol Was Planned, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Number Of Americans Viewing Rising Prices As A Crisis Climbs

    ……..Americans, 64 – 30 percent, say that the attack was planned rather than spontaneous, according to a Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pea-ack) University national poll of adults released today (6/22).

    Democrats say 84 – 13 percent and independents say 61 – 30 percent that the attack was planned. Republicans are divided, with 49 percent saying it was planned and 46 percent saying it was spontaneous.
    …….
    Americans are split about whether or not they think former President Donald Trump committed a crime with his efforts to change the results of the 2020 presidential election, with 46 percent saying he did commit a crime and 47 percent saying he did not commit a crime. The results are essentially unchanged from an April 6, 2022 Quinnipiac University poll.

    Nearly 6 in 10 Americans think former President Trump bears a lot (41 percent) or some (18 percent) of the responsibility for the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021, while 39 percent say he bears not much of the responsibility (14 percent) or none at all (25 percent). The results are mostly unchanged from a January 12, 2022 Quinnipiac University poll.

    Among Republicans, 69 percent say Trump bears not much of the responsibility (25 percent) or none at all (44 percent). Among Democrats, 92 percent say Trump bears a lot (77 percent) or some (15 percent) of the responsibility.

    Americans were asked whether they are more or less likely to vote for a political candidate for office who says they believe the 2020 presidential election was stolen from Donald Trump. Fifteen percent of Americans say they are more likely to vote for that candidate, while 45 percent say they are less likely to vote for that candidate and 35 percent say it makes no difference. Thirty-five percent of Republicans say they are more likely to vote for that candidate, while 17 percent say they are less likely to vote for that candidate and 44 percent say it makes no difference.

    A vast majority of Americans (77 percent) think extremism from within the country is the bigger threat to the United States rather than extremism from another country, while 17 percent think extremism from another country is the bigger threat to the United States rather than extremism from within the country. The findings are similar across all listed groups.
    …….
    More than 6 in 10 Americans (63 percent) say the price of gas and consumer goods is the economic issue that worries them most right now, while 17 percent say the cost of housing or rent, 11 percent say the stock market, and 3 percent say their job situation.
    ……
    Americans give President Joe Biden a negative 33 – 57 percent job approval rating with 10 percent not offering an opinion. Biden’s 33 percent job approval among Americans ties the low that he has received in three previous Quinnipiac University national polls.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  142. @144. You’ve probably too young to have gone to public school and had your teacher, in my case, Mrs. Desmond, start the day w/a prayer then the pledge– then one morning, no more prayer. And when asked why by the kids, told they couldn’t any more. That was back in ’62.

    DCSCA (856981)

  143. In Boebert’s District, as Elsewhere, Democrats Surge Into G.O.P. Primary
    ………
    Driven by fears of extremism and worries about what they see as an authoritarianism embodied in Ms. Boebert, thousands of Democrats in the sprawling third congressional district of Colorado have rushed to shore up her Republican challenger, State Senator Don Coram. Their aim is not to do what is best for Democrats but to do what they think is best for democracy.
    ……..
    The Colorado crossover voters are part of a broader trend of Democrats intervening to try to beat back the extremes of the G.O.P., in Georgia, North Carolina, Colorado, Utah and elsewhere.
    ……..
    A nascent infrastructure is supporting the trend. The Country First Political Action Committee, established by Representative Adam Kinzinger, an anti-Trump Republican from Illinois, has used text messages and online advertising to rally opposition against what the congressman has called the most “toxic” and partisan Republicans. Those include Representatives Madison Cawthorn, Republican of North Carolina, and Jody Hice, Republican of Georgia, who, with Donald J. Trump’s backing, tried to defeat Georgia’s secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, after he resisted Mr. Trump’s push to “find” the votes to nullify President Biden’s victory there.
    ……..
    In Colorado, a constellation of small political groups have sprung up to oppose Ms. Boebert’s re-election ahead of next week’s primary, such as Rural Colorado United and the Better Than Boebert PAC, formed by Joel Dyar, a liberal community organizer in Grand Junction, and James Light, an affluent Republican developer who helped create the mega ski resort Snowmass in the 1970s.
    ……..
    In the Georgia secretary of state race, at least 67,000 people who voted in Georgia’s Democratic primary two years ago cast ballots in the Republican primary, an unusually high number. Mr. Raffensperger cleared the 50 percent threshold to avoid a runoff by just over 27,000 votes.

    More than 5,400 early or absentee votes cast in the western North Carolina primary that included Mr. Cawthorn similarly came from Democrats who had voted in their party’s primary two years earlier. Mr. Cawthorn lost by fewer than 1,500.
    ……..
    In Colorado, voters can cast ballots in the Republican primary if they are registered with the party or as unaffiliated. In Ms. Boebert’s district, Democratic Party officials have tallied about 3,700 more unaffiliated voters in this year’s Republican primary compared with two years ago. They are largely concentrated in the Democratic hubs of Pitkin County, home of Aspen, where one can never be too rich or too liberal, and La Plata County, where Durango is filling with young people.
    …….
    Ms. Boebert’s campaign did not respond to requests for comment. She remains a prohibitive favorite on Tuesday.
    …….

    Not Necessarily Related:

    Is It Last Call for Lauren Boebert’s Gun Restaurant?
    ………
    Shooters Grill, the gun-themed Hooters parody restaurant that put Rifle, Colorado, on the map and elevated Boebert to local celebrity status, has run into some trouble with its new landlord—a marijuana retailer.

    But her landlord isn’t all that new. And the story, which has gone through several iterations over the last week, isn’t exactly adding up.

    As it stands, the landlord has told Boebert he will revoke the restaurant’s lease at the end of August, and send Shooters packing. The rest is up in the air.

    Boebert told The Daily Beast that she and her husband, Jayson Boebert, had been surprised to receive the notice last week announcing that their lease would not be renewed. The building’s ownership changed hands last month, she said, and now Shooters would either have to find new digs or shut down for good.
    ………
    Now she says she’s entertaining two contradictory options: The original shutdown plan, or buying the building outright from the new owners. She won’t say which she and her husband are choosing until after the primary.

    Shooters was central to Boebert’s rocketship ascent to federal office, but it hasn’t been a financial success. The restaurant turned in a streak of six-figure annual losses leading up to Boebert’s 2020 election, and struggled to stay above water even after she shot to fame as a MAGA darling. She said it had been a lot of work balancing the stress and drama of running a restaurant against her legislative duties 1,800 miles away, and she often found herself turning to her mom to pick up the slack. That struggle is partially why she at first saw the closure as a blessing.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  144. Greitens’s violent ad sets off GOP scramble to stop his Senate bid
    ……..
    ……..(T)the opposition is split among factions backing different rivals in the Aug. 2 primary and over disagreements on who should attack Greitens or how, according to people involved in the discussions. They, like others interviewed for this article, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive matters.

    Others are preparing to pour millions instead into an independent bid by John F. Wood, a senior investigative counsel on the House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack. And some are concerned that intervening in the race could play into Greitens’s hands by feeding his anti-establishment posturing — or even prompting former president Donald Trump to endorse him.
    ………
    Some Trump advisers have also been imploring him not to endorse Greitens, which could be decisive in the right-drifting state. Among those privately appalled by the ad is Ronna McDaniel, the Republican National Committee chairwoman, who has lobbied Trump against making any endorsement in the Missouri Senate race and made a round of calls to allies and advisers this week to express her displeasure with the video.

    With the election six weeks away, some Republicans are panicking that a Greitens primary victory could hurt the party’s footing in a must-win state to take back control of the Senate.
    ……..
    “If someone is going to stop Eric Greitens, that effort is going to have to be soon,” said James Harris, a Republican consultant in Missouri not working on the Senate contest. “I think Eric Greitens is very hard to stop unless President Trump endorses one of the other candidates. And whoever he endorses will win.”
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  145. (CA) State Attorney General Suggests Considering Applicants’ Ideological Viewpoints in Denying Carry Licenses

    ……..California thus seems ready to promptly shift to a fundamentally shall-issue regime, in which pretty much all law-abiding adults can get licenses to carry concealed weapons. Nor will this require legislative action, I think; California already has a may-issue regime in place for licensing, so—as the AG’s office notes—licensing authorities (“sheriffs and chiefs of police”) can just use that regime but essentially without applying a good-cause requirement.

    But the AG’s office concludes that the existing statutory requirement “that a public-carry license applicant provide proof of ‘good moral character’ remains constitutional,” and that this requirement isn’t limited to disqualifying felons, certain violent misdemeanants, and the like. And in particular the AG’s office suggests that people who hold certain ideological viewpoints should be disqualified:

    Existing public-carry policies of local law enforcement agencies across the state provide helpful examples of how to apply the “good moral character” requirement.
    ……..
    ……..The Riverside County Sheriff’s Department’s policy, for example, currently provides as follows: “Legal judgments of good moral character can include consideration of honesty, trustworthiness, diligence, reliability, respect for the law, integrity, candor, discretion, observance of fiduciary duty, respect for the rights of others, absence of hatred and racism, fiscal stability, profession-specific criteria such as pledging to honor the constitution and uphold the law, and the absence of criminal conviction.”
    ……..
    As a starting point for purposes of investigating an applicant’s moral character, many issuing authorities require personal references and/or reference letters. Investigators may personally interview applicants and use the opportunity to gain further insight into the applicant’s character. And they may search publicly-available information, including social media accounts, in assessing the applicant’s character. [Emphasis added.]

    This strikes me as clearly unconstitutional under the First Amendment, even apart from the Second Amendment. The government can’t restrict ordinary citizens’ actions—much less their constitutionally protected actions—based on the viewpoints that they express. People can’t be denied benefits because they

    1. endorse “hatred” (a potentially extraordinarily broad and vague term) and “racism” (a term that, especially in much recent usage, is likewise highly broad and vague),
    2. because they endorse certain extremist views of Islam (or any other religion),
    3. because they endorse violent Communist revolution,
    4. are strongly anti-police,
    5. anti-government,
    6. anti-abortion,
    7. pro-abortion-rights,
    8. environmentalist, or
    9. pro-animal-rights.

    Nor does it matter that some extreme adherents of the relevant ideology engage in violence (something that’s true for many ideologies), or that there are strands in the ideology that overtly support violence under some circumstances (again, something that’s true for many ideologies). Just as the Free Exercise Clause would bar the government from engaging in religious discrimination in deciding which citizens can do certain things, so the Free Speech Clause bars the government from engaging in viewpoint discrimination.
    …….
    There are of course other problems here as well:

    [1.] Mere arrest history, without proof that the arrestee actually engaged in illegal conduct, strikes me as inadequate to justify denying Second Amendment rights.

    [2.] Lack of “fiscal stability”—which may simply mean being very poor or insolvent—can’t be such a basis, either.

    [3.] More broadly, even behaviors that we do think show bad moral character, such as minor crimes (not felonies) or torts related to dishonesty or vandalism or the like, don’t strike me as sufficient to strip people of their constitutional rights. …….
    ………
    [4.] And the exercise of an individual constitutional right generally can’t be conditioned on the rightsholder’s submitting “personal references.”

    ……..[T]he viewpoint-based criteria that the AG’s office is recommending would violate both the First and Second Amendments, and some of the other criteria would violate the Second.
    ###########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  146. https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/chris-queen/2022/06/27/breaking-supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-football-coach-who-prayed-with-his-players-after-games-n1607504

    Another case where thankfully the only obvious decision won, but the 3 leftists voted as a block against the 1st amendment.

    Just imagine how these cases would’ve gone if we voted as the frauds at the Dispatch or Lincoln Project demanded.

    NJRob (7e05db)

  147. In California, a Republican congressman who voted to impeach Trump survives his primary

    Representative David Valadao, a Republican running in a strongly Democratic district in California’s Central Valley, will face off in November with his strongest challenger yet after primary voters gave the Republican and Democratic establishments the candidates they wanted.

    Mr. Valadao, whose victory was called by The Associated Press weeks after the June 7 primary, is one of the most endangered House Republicans in the country.

    He voted to impeach former President Donald J. Trump for inciting the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, then laid low and largely escaped Mr. Trump’s wrath. He attracted two Republican primary challengers — Chris Mathys, who ran as a pro-Trump voice, and Adam Madeiros, who campaigned as a traditional pro-agriculture conservative in the Central Valley.

    Mr. Valadao’s Democratic challenger — Rudy Salas, a five-term assemblyman who is a popular fixture in the Fresno area — cleared the Democratic field the night of the primary in a district whose lines shifted in his favor, away from the outskirts of conservative Bakersfield.

    The district was part of the phony “independent” commission’s gerrymander.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  148. Bad boys, and one bad girl: I looked through the Wikipedia biographies of the six Republican members of Congress who are known to have asked for pardons, and was a little surprised at how much trouble they have been in, over the years.

    Matt Gaetz’s problems are probably the best known, but I had not heard this: “Between 1999 and 2014, Gaetz received 16 speeding tickets in Florida.” And was arrested for drunk driving in 2008.

    As most of you know, he is currently under investigation by both the House Ethics committee, and the Justice Department for sex with minors and sex trafficking. (He denies the allegations and says he is a vicitm of an attempted extortion. Both the allegations and the extortion attempt could be true.)

    (Here are the six: Mo Brooks (AL), Andy Biggs (AZ), Matt Gaetz (FL), Louie Gohmert (TX), Marjorie Taylor Greene (GA) and Scott Perry (PA).)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  149. The district was part of the phony “independent” commission’s gerrymander.

    All districts were part of the commission’s “gerrymander.” I don’t like independent commissions as they are not directly responsible to the people. They are doing a job that should be done by the legislature.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  150. Rip, if you go to the commission’s site and look at the bios of the commissioners, you’ll see that it was about 10 Democrats, 3 utter RINOs and 2 Republicans. One of the Democrats was a professional apportionment expert.

    e.g.

    Ms. Andersen was one of very few women in structural engineering, and pushed for diversity and inclusion throughout her professional and volunteer activities. Ms. Andersen is semi-retired and is registered with the Republican Party.

    and

    Currently an Investigator with the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, Mr. Taylor has served California communities for over twenty-five years. As an Investigator, Mr. Taylor ensures that investigations are completed in a just and equitable manner in a wide variety of categories ranging from assaults to computer crimes. Mr. Taylor is registered with the Republican Party.

    and

    He’s the author of Worship on the Way (2012), which explores worship in Asian and South East Asian North American churches. He pastored a church for ten years and is active in his present multicultural church community, which wrestles tangibly with matters of social justice, class & race, cultural contextualization, community redevelopment, crime & safety, recovery, re-entry, and homelessness. He is registered with the Republican Party.

    The pattern is easy to see.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  151. All districts were part of the commission’s “gerrymander.”

    Yes, but his district was typical of GOP districts: right-of-center voters were moved out, into fewer districts.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  152. Jan. 6 Panel Abruptly Sets Tuesday Hearing on ‘Recently Obtained Evidence’

    The House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol on Monday abruptly scheduled a hearing for Tuesday afternoon to hear what the panel called “recently obtained evidence” and take witness testimony.

    The hearing is scheduled for 1 p.m., according to a news release issued by the committee, in which it provided no other details about the surprise session.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  153. Rip, if you go to the commission’s site and look at the bios of the commissioners, you’ll see that it was about 10 Democrats, 3 utter RINOs and 2 Republicans. One of the Democrats was a professional apportionment expert.

    Again, I voted against the commission concept. It’s the legislature’s job to reapportion districts. Their backgrounds make no difference, the commissioners are unelected bureaucrats not responsible to anyone.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  154. Breaking: January 6 committee schedules another hearing for tomorrow after saying they would take at least two weeks off from public hearings.

    https://www.newser.com/story/322259/jan-6-panel-calls-surprise-hearing.html

    …. The hearing scheduled for 1pm on Tuesday comes after Congress left Washington for a two-week recess. Lawmakers on the panel investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection said last week that there would be no more hearings until July, the AP reports. The subject of the hearings is so far unclear. A spokesman for the panel declined to comment on its substance.

    It’s probably real.

    What I am thinking of is this: There is a Proud Boys tape from December 30 in which the leader tells them to avoid breaking police lines, and not to do other things which they did do. It is full of disparaging comments. But he He also possibly hints of secret orders to come. (it may very well have been intended to be taped as “exculpatory” evidence. Or maybe to limit the plotting to real insiders. Talk about a devious conspiracy!)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/26/us/politics/proud-boys-jan-6.html

    The directives, given during a video conference, included obeying police lines and keeping away from ordinary protesters. But members of the far-right group played aggressive roles in several breaches at the Capitol.

    ————————

    …The meeting, on Dec. 30, 2020, marked the founding of a special new chapter of the Proud Boys called the Ministry of Self-Defense. The team of several dozen trusted members was intended, Mr. Tarrio told his men, to bring a level of order and professionalism to the group’s upcoming march in Washington on Jan. 6, 2021, that had, by his own account, been missing at earlier Proud Boys rallies in the city.

    Over nearly two hours, Mr. Tarrio and his leadership team — many of whom have since been charged with seditious conspiracy — gave the new recruits a series of directives: Adopt a defensive posture on Jan. 6, they were told. Keep the “normies” — or the normal protesters — away from the Proud Boys’ marching ranks. And obey police lines.

    “We’re never going to be the ones to cross the police barrier or cross something in order to get to somebody,” Mr. Tarrio said.

    Far from holding back, members of the far-right group played aggressive roles in several breaches at the Capitol, moving in coordination and often taking the lead in removing police barricades, according to a visual investigation by The New York Times of hundreds of hours of video footage of the assault.

    And despite what Mr. Tarrio said about keeping away from ordinary protesters, members of the group repeatedly instigated people around them in a tactic that some Proud Boys later described in private messages as “riling up the normies.”

    You know, they, or people associated with them, could have lied to Donald Trump, or his representatives, too. Not just for the record or to their less trusted members. And somebody may have explained faalsely to Trump what “wild” meant.

    In court filings, prosecutors have claimed that the Proud Boys began to plan their assault as early as Dec. 19, 2020 — the day that President Donald J. Trump posted a tweet announcing his Jan. 6 rally and saying it would be “wild.” But the video conference shows that, just one week before the event, when Mr. Tarrio and other Proud Boys leaders gathered their team for a meeting, they spent most of their time discussing things like staying away from alcohol and women and taking measures to ensure their own security.

    The planning began at least as far back as December 19 – yet here is Torrio telling his members on December 30, not to act violently or not to be the first anyway.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  155. …As for the Capitol itself, it came up only occasionally.

    At one point, as the floor was opened for questions, various Proud Boys asked Mr. Tarrio about the group’s goals for Jan. 6, including how much they would focus on Vice President Mike Pence’s certification of the election results that day. Mr. Tarrio deflected the inquiries, saying that the details of the Proud Boys’ mission would be discussed in future meetings.

    But the committee will probably not want to undermine the Trump did it narrative of some Democrats so I don’t know if it will deal with this — except that this “exculpatory” tape was leaked to the New York Times just now. So in some way, this sudden hearing may be related.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  156. 150. I thought they weren’t issuing any more opinions.

    Apparently they only put says on the calendar when they are sure.

    Now they added Wednesday for more opinions

    https://www.supremecourt.gov

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  157. four cases remain — oklahoma v castro-huerta (state criminal jurisdiction over crimes committed by non-tribal members on tribal land); biden v texas (is the biden administration required to continue the stay-in-mexico strategy); torres vs. tex dept of public safety (can Congress authorize military veterans to sue state-agency employers for violation of veteran-related employment law *without the consent of the state*); west virginia v epa (widely expected to overturn chevron deference)

    aphrael (4c4719)

  158. On June 24, it looked like Friday was the last day:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20220624082117/https://www.supremecourt.gov

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  159. “Another case where thankfully the only obvious decision won, but the 3 leftists voted as a block against the 1st amendment.”

    Majority: “Mr. Kennedy prayed during a period when school employees were free to speak with a friend, call for a reservation at a restaurant, check email, or attend to other personal matters. He offered his prayers quietly while his students were otherwise occupied.”

    What actually happened: https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1541429605520875522

    There’s a mile-wide gap between how the court’s conservatives describe what the coach in Bremerton was doing, and what he was actually doing.

    https://twitter.com/radleybalko/status/1541431562671194113

    Davethulhu (763837)

  160. Sammy, at 162 — not if you were tracking undecided cases, it didn’t.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  161. @163 Those twitter feeds are always awesome. You get such original and deeps thoughts like:

    So how’s it work when opposing “Christian” teams pray for victory? Does it mean the losing side has officially been deemed unworthy by their god and destined for eternal damnation? If prayer works to win games, why does it always fail to regrow amputated limbs? So many questions.

    I think this guys real crime is he took time that could be used to correctly educate these football players on questioning their gender roles and sexual preferences.

    frosty (e06071)

  162. “I think this guys real crime is he took time that could be used to correctly educate these football players on questioning their gender roles and sexual preferences.”

    Why do you think the majority side felt it necessary to misrepresent the facts of the case?

    Davethulhu (763837)

  163. “Breaking: January 6 committee schedules another hearing for tomorrow after saying they would take at least two weeks off from public hearings.”

    They’d better make sure the “new evidence” is still sticking to the outhouse wall in the morning.

    Sad.

    Colonel Haiku (04e645)

  164. “Those twitter feeds are always awesome.”

    You’ll probably love this one:

    “I’m tired of this separation of church and state junk.”

    Lauren Boebert went full theocracy, and proclaimed, “The church is supposed to direct the government” per the founding fathers.

    https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1541508454740885511

    Davethulhu (763837)

  165. “They’d better make sure the “new evidence” is still sticking to the outhouse wall in the morning.”

    Might be related to this:

    BREAKING: John Eastman, the lawyer who developed Trump’s Jan. 6 Pence strategy, says federal agents seized his phone on June 22.

    https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1541538382756585472

    Davethulhu (763837)

  166. @169 If John Eastman didn’t cremate his phone prior to June 22, he’s not only a subversive; he’s an idiot.

    norcal (da5491)

  167. What is it with the gazpacho seizing people’s cell phones all the time? Never mind all the things people store on them these days — from their driver’s license to their bank car to their commuter train ticket — for most people that’s their “home phone”. Where do these Dunkin denizens get off?

    nk (18ae23)

  168. @171-
    You answered your own question.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  169. More of our troops will be on the move to Ukraine to fight the Climate war.
    Then the US army will go into meltdown when the Russians don’t get their pronouns right.

    mg (8cbc69)

  170. More US army troops will be on the move to the Ukraine to fight the climate war.
    That is when the us troops will have a meltdown because the Russians didn’t get their pronouns right.

    mg (8cbc69)

  171. Eighty-five percent of US adults feel country headed in wrong direction: Poll

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/eighty-five-percent-of-us-adults-feel-country-headed-in-wrong-direction-poll

    Carterrific, Joey!

    DCSCA (b5715b)

  172. the other 15% are on the other thread

    mg (8cbc69)

  173. Good grief. This morning there was a PAC 12. As of right now it’s a PAC 8 and probably disintegrated.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  174. hat is PAC12 and PAC 8?

    Sammy Finkelman (0ac4d7)


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