Patterico's Pontifications

6/21/2022

Heartbreaking But Unsurprising: Georgia Election Workers Testify That Trump’s Lies Led To Harassment and Death Threats

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:19 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Today at the Jan. 6 Committee hearing, we learned that Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani were more than willing to wreck an election workers’ life as they scapegoated her. Unfortunately, because Trump and his campaign didn’t give a crap about an election worker’s life, blowing it up was no big deal if it might benefit Trump and his election scheme:

A former Georgia election worker told the Jan. 6 committee on Tuesday that “lies” spread by then-President Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani about her and her mother taking part in a voter fraud scheme led to death threats and harassment in the wake of the 2020 presidential election.

In a hearing before the House select panel investigating the events that led to the Capitol riot, Wandrea “Shaye” Moss, an election worker in Fulton County, testified that false claims made by the former president, his personal lawyer and their allies about her and her mother, “Lady” Ruby Freeman, a temporary election worker, “turned my world upside down.”

“I don’t want anyone knowing my name,” Moss said. “I don’t wanna go anywhere with my mom ’cause she might yell my name out over the grocery aisle or something. I don’t go to the grocery store at all. I haven’t been anywhere.

“I second-guess everything that I do,” she continued. “It’s affected my life in a major way, in every way, all because of lies for me doing my job, same thing I’ve been doing forever.”

And what did the Dumb and Dumber accuse Moss of doing? Well…:

Trump’s campaign accused Moss and Freeman of pulling fake mail-in ballots from suitcases while working on Election Day –– but officials quickly confirmed that these “suitcases” were standard ballot containers and that no fraud had occurred.

They also made an even more absurd accusation:

Trump and Giuliani claim[ed] they used a suitcase to sneak ballots into Atlanta’s State Farm Arena on election night, and that Freeman passed Moss a flash drive as the votes were being tallied.

The supposed flash drive was, in reality, a ginger mint, Moss said.

Moreover:

Trump mentioned Freeman during a call with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger –– during which he asked the secretary to “find” enough votes to overturn the election –– repeating her name 18 times and calling her a “professional vote scammer,” a “hustler” and “a known political operative.”

Unfortunately, Trumpers believed Trump’s lies and decided they needed to do something about Moss. Thus, Moss and her family were repeatedly harassed by Trump supporters:

At the urging of her boss, Moss said she checked her Facebook messages and there “were just a lot of horrible things there.” They included “a lot of threats, wishing death upon me, telling me that I’ll be in jail with my mother and saying things like, ‘Be glad it’s 2020 and not 1920.’”

“A lot of them were racist, a lot of them were just hateful,” Moss said.

She said her son also received threats and that at one point, people went to her grandmother’s house and tried to make a “citizen’s arrest.”

Things got so bad that the FBI told Freeman she needed to leave her home, so she went into hiding and remained there for two months.

“It was horrible,” Freeman said. “I felt homeless. I can’t believe this person [Trump] has caused this much damage to me and my family, to have to leave my home.”

Freeman said she lost her reputation and a sense of security because Trump and Giuliani “decided to scapegoat me and my daughter to push their own lies about the election being stolen.”

“There is nowhere I feel safe, nowhere,” Freeman said. “Do you know how it feels to have the president of the United States target you? The president of the United States is supposed to represent every American — not to target one. But he targeted me — Lady Ruby, a small-business owner, a mother, a proud American citizen who stand up to help Fulton County run an election in the middle of the pandemic.”

This is outrageous. The ease with which the most powerful man in the United States at the time and his crony targeted two election workers, and not only tarnished their reputations and scared them to death, but also brought pain and suffering on their families, is shocking. But it shouldn’t be. Not really. Because that is who what they are: conniving animals with no functioning moral compass who would go to any lengths to get their way. Trump, because he really believed (and still does) that he alone was the savior of the American people and as such, there was no way on earth that he could have lost the election. And Giuliani, because he was and is a slimy, spineless worm. Both men are nothing more than fetid green oozing pustules on the body politic.

–Dana

132 Responses to “Heartbreaking But Unsurprising: Georgia Election Workers Testify That Trump’s Lies Led To Harassment and Death Threats”

  1. If you push the big lie here, you will find yourself in moderation.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. This place is getting too rough for me.

    felipe (484255)

  3. How so, Felipe?

    Dana (1225fc)

  4. Tightening election rules in several states should help to instill some confidence.

    Colonel Haiku (8add05)

  5. keyboard gestapo strikes again

    mg (8cbc69)

  6. The crisis of confidence isn’t because election rules need to be tightened, but because people believe lies about elections. When Maricopa County did an audit; when Georgia did a statewide audit and hand recount . . . did the election truthers soberly examine the evidence and change their beliefs accordingly? The answer is no, they did not, because facts and evidence have little to nothing to do with why people distrust the electoral process.

    Patterico (d6d977)

  7. felipe, I love having you around, so if there is something upsetting you, I’d like to know more. I see nothing inappropriate in Dana’s post or comments, but I do not assume you are referring to her.

    Patterico (859395)

  8. “The answer is no, they did not, because facts and evidence have little to nothing to do with why people distrust the electoral process.”

    Enforced thought and speech compliance won’t do the trick.

    Colonel Haiku (8add05)

  9. And Giuliani, because he was and is a slimy, spineless worm.

    He can be such a drag, can’t he– or is it she:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTFv8Sr08V8

    ‘You’ve come a long way, baby…’ from hailed as “America’s Mayor” on 9/11.

    DCSCA (d73ea7)

  10. @8. Problem is, citizens paying $7/gallon for gas today aren’t too interested in dissecting events of many yesterdays ago- especially when, unlike Watergate, the folks are out of power and the Congresscritters pitching this keep beclowning themselves a la Colbert and so forth rather than dealing w/t issues of hear and now- like gas, supply chain shortages and so on. It’s their own fault. At least the Watergate committee had a fair party balance of inquisitors– and for those of you who weren’t around to see them at the time, it all wasn’t dramatic Dean, Ehrlichman, Haldeman, Mitchell, Chapin, Magruder or Butterfield… a lot it was tedious and staid summer television– classic Senate paint drying stuff- pre CSPAN days, mostly gavel to gavel on PBS. The bellringer was the revelation of the tapes.

    DCSCA (d73ea7)

  11. Trump has always complained that libel laws are too weak. Maybe these folks should try them out against him. Bet you he settles.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  12. “Compare and contrast Trump’s assertion that the 2020 election was stolen with the Obama/Clinton assertion that Trump’s 2016 election was illegitimate because Russia was somehow able to steal it for him.” —- Meade

    Colonel Haiku (8add05)

  13. And why aren’t lawyers lining up to their door to sue Trump, Giuliani et al? The punitive damages alone would be 10s of millions.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  14. It’s not brown shirts….but the destruction of people in service of the big lie….sure smells a lot like fetid fascism. Bullying good conservatives out of office for the sin of not spreading the lie is one thing….dumb, counter-productive in the end…but attacking state officials and poll workers for not abetting a crime…is just despicable. Hopefully the more that comes out gives a few good Republicans cover to come out of hiding and not let this madness further define the GOP. It’s getting harder and harder to deny reality and stand with thugs. It’s just getting more and more strained to say that none of this matters…..

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  15. It’s getting harder and harder to deny reality and stand with thugs.

    … said Ron Ziegler right up to the night The Big Dick resigned.

    People simply aren’t responding to the pompous preaching of a Liz Cheney, given her and her family’s history, nor a Schiff, who has credibility issues of his own. They may have hired an ABC exec to produce but the casting is pure Cartoon Network.

    DCSCA (d73ea7)

  16. Enforced thought and speech compliance won’t do the trick.

    Did you think I was suggesting that as a remedy?

    Patterico (d6d977)

  17. @6:

    To be fair, the wholesale mailing of ballots to last-known addresses should raise some security issues. Whether or not anything untoward happened, the opportunity exists for fraud when you do this. The safeguards (signature comparisons mostly) are not all that robust. This was brought up before the election by sources such as the LA Times, not just the whackjob corners of Trumpland.

    Now, there are all kinds of morons making claims regarding the election and the most unlikely claims involve rigged counting. That’s nearly impossible; control of received ballots is fairly good and no one gets to count ballots by themselves.

    OTOH, now that elections are mostly mailed ballots, the security regarding those and their provenance could stand some attention. Most of those procedures were established when mailed ballots were a tiny fraction of the vote. Asking for that to be reviewed and tightened up should not be conflated with thinking Trump won.

    Nothing is perfect and things can always be improved.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  18. Hi, Wandrea Moss

    meet John Paul Mac Isaac

    his life is just as ruined but he won’t get the same attention and sympathy as you

    don’t try to figure it out

    nothing personal, just politics

    JF (4a8e52)

  19. Vote Democrat, aj. Don’t fight the feeling!

    Colonel Haiku (8add05)

  20. Lest you forget, when John Dean testified to the Watergate Senate committee, with immunity, he talked in a monotone voice and read his entire testimony in four lengthy sessions over four days. American audiences today barely sit through a half-hour sitcom. The way this is being presented today- even with TeeVee clips, is just very poor and can put a cat to sleep.

    DCSCA (d73ea7)

  21. 16… do I think that you are suggesting that? No.

    Do I think Democrats and ALL the people who’ve aligned with them are demanding that? Yes, I very much believe that. It’s fairly obvious that they want the power to shut down and silence any opposition.

    Colonel Haiku (8add05)

  22. good thing Carter Page got an apology

    let me search for it….

    stay right there….

    JF (4a8e52)

  23. hey, look who just stopped by

    Nick Sandmann!!

    hey, Nick, looking good

    JF (4a8e52)

  24. Both sides do it, JF. How about equal condemnation?

    norcal (da5491)

  25. norcal (da5491) — 6/21/2022 @ 7:30 pm

    only two groups do bad things:

    1. maga
    2. “both sides”

    JF (4a8e52)

  26. @24. Both sides do it, JF. How about equal condemnation?

    Problem is, Nancy set this up to be anything but equal. This failure is on her. Had the 82 year old finger-wagging wicked witch of the west not gone full partisan when setting this up, it might have come across as a reasonable inquiry, a la Watergate. But she blew it.

    DCSCA (d73ea7)

  27. Hyperbole?

    Eric Greiten’s Senate campaign ad.

    “Order your RINO hunting permit today! Join the MAGA crew. Get a RINO hunting permit. There’s no bagging limit, no tagging limit, and it doesn’t expire until we save our country.”

    https://twitter.com/EricGreitens/status/1538876823978713089?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1538876823978713089%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vox.com%2Fpolicy-and-politics%2F2022%2F6%2F21%2F23177718%2Feric-greitens-missouri-senate-campaign-ad-rinos

    purplehaze (ff7d1a)

  28. the part where schiff mentions to ms. moss that he’s being sued by john paul mac isaac must’ve got edited out

    JF (4a8e52)

  29. only two groups do bad things:

    1. maga
    2. “both sides”

    JF (4a8e52) — 6/21/2022 @ 7:34 pm

    Spoken like an aggrieved culture warrior who is too busy flinging poo to see the problem clearly.

    norcal (da5491)

  30. “Vote Democrat, aj. Don’t fight the feeling!”

    What a moronic take on corruption. You should be old enough to understand….it’s embarrassing that you keep the clown hat on.

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  31. norcal (da5491) — 6/21/2022 @ 7:52 pm

    both sides are flinging poo in this thread

    JF (4a8e52)

  32. Do better, aj.

    Colonel Haiku (8add05)

  33. Notice who can’t/won’t get over Trump. It must be very debilitating to let this drag on nearly 18 months into Biden’s presidency, but there it is. Whatever it is the Democrats, Democrat MSM operatives with bylines, NeverTrump and other assorted a**holes are hoping to do, they should get on with it.

    Whatever results would be less damaging than if they were to loose BLM and ANTIFA again on American cities to burn, loot, murder as was done in 2020.

    Colonel Haiku (8add05)

  34. 16… do I think that you are suggesting that? No.

    Do I think Democrats and ALL the people who’ve aligned with them are demanding that? Yes, I very much believe that. It’s fairly obvious that they want the power to shut down and silence any opposition.

    What is “the opposition” in the context of the debate over whether Joe Biden was legitimately elected?

    You understand that there is nothing but partisan horseshit as a basis to question his legitimacy, right?

    If you don’t understand that, you have bigger problems than leftists trying to shut down opposition; you are deluded and deranged. If you do understand that, then what is your point?

    Patterico (d6d977)

  35. Dana (1225fc) — 6/21/2022 @ 5:25 pm

    It is another way of saying “stop the world, I wanna get off!”

    felipe (484255)

  36. Thanks for your reply, felipe. And I totally understand your sentiment.

    Dana (1225fc)

  37. Patterico (859395) — 6/21/2022 @ 6:37 pm

    Good heavens, of course it is not any person. It is the spirit of the times.

    Not since the 1960’s have I felt like such a stranger to this world. Two Presidents in a row have had such an unintended impact on the people all around me.

    This is not despair, it is not amazement – it is just the crescendo of music that is too loud for my tired ears.

    I appreciate both your and Dana’s concern. Without a doubt, you two, along with JVW, provide an oasis for me.

    felipe (484255)

  38. I figured it was something like that. Just checking. Thanks for the response.

    Patterico (859395)

  39. Notice who can’t/won’t get over Trump. It must be very debilitating to let this drag on nearly 18 months into Biden’s presidency, but there it is.

    Remember why Ford pardoned The Big Dick back in the day? To avoid exactly what you have sketched out.

    DCSCA (365c20)

  40. As far and I can tell, the message from a number of posters on this blog isn’t “shut up” or “I can’t get over Trump and I’m going to vote Democrat.” The message more seems to be “don’t pretend delusion and lies are reality, it makes the people doing it look foolish or disingenuous” and “Would you please move on from Trump and get a better candidate.”

    Nic (896fdf)

  41. meet John Paul Mac Isaac

    his life is just as ruined but he won’t get the same attention and sympathy as you

    If somebody appropriates my laptop and makes the information on my hard drive public, I would very much want his life to be ruined. Totally! Utterly! Completely! Extra pain for the mustard pom-pom beret.

    nk (1b9693)

  42. And it’s exactly the same thing as being falsely accused of stuffing ballot boxes.

    If you’re a poll worker, and the President of the United States falsely accuses you of stuffing the ballot box with 18,000 fake ballots, your life should be ruined.

    Exact same thing, no difference at all whatsoever from giving out the information on a laptop that somebody left with you and never came back for.

    nk (1b9693)

  43. 37, I thought you were a lot younger, Felipe. Didn’t peg you for anything older than latter Gen X.

    Not since the 1960’s have I felt like such a stranger to this world. Two Presidents in a row have had such an unintended impact on the people all around me.

    urbanleftbehind (bd7e3d)

  44. And I wonder how many other people’s personal information the pom-pom has “backed up”.

    nk (1b9693)

  45. urbanleftbehind (bd7e3d) — 6/22/2022 @ 4:50 am

    What a wonderful compliment, ulb. Thank you. You just made my day.

    felipe (484255)

  46. 40. nk (1b9693) — 6/22/2022 @ 4:23 am

    If somebody appropriates my laptop and makes the information on my hard drive public, I would very much want his life to be ruined. Totally! Utterly! Completely! Extra pain for the mustard pom-pom beret.

    The computer repairman, John Paul Mac Isaac, did not appropriates Hunter Biden’s laptop, or rather his hard drive which contained recovered files. Hunter Biden abandoned it, probably because all 3 laptops – the completely broken one, the one with a nonfunctional keyboard, for which Isaac supplied a keyboard temporarily which Hunter |Biden never returned or paid for, and the one from which files were recoverable, all had mostly the same files, all backed up in iCloud and one he had one laptop\s files he didn’t need the others and he was moving from Delaware to California.

    Hunter Biden had brought a hard disk or a laptop to put the recovered files on. He never returned to pay for his Isaac’s work or to take his hard drive, and, after a period of time, it legally became Isaac’s property. (mechanic’s lien and general abandoned property laws)

    Isaac studied the files and was concerned that it contained illegal material (mainly the pictures, some of which could have amounted to child or underage pornography.)

    He attempted to interest members of Congress and other investigators. Eventually the FBI subpoenaed it (under the theory that it might contain evidence of money laundering) but they didn’t understand that the hard drive was not only the place Isaac had put the recovered files – he still had the recovered files on his server!!

    Later he contacted Giuliani. Bits and pieces have been made public – and some of it was stupidly or maliciously misinterpreted.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  47. Sammy, when you expressly trade in your phone because it is broken, worn-out, or Verizon switched to 5G, do you give them the right to recover the information on it as well as the gold and palladium? Pom-pom acquired the right to the hardware, not to the Hunter’s emails and browsing history.

    nk (1b9693)

  48. You understand that there is nothing but partisan horseshit as a basis to question his legitimacy, right?

    If you don’t understand that, you have bigger problems than leftists trying to shut down opposition; you are deluded and deranged. If you do understand that, then what is your point?
    Patterico (d6d977) — 6/21/2022 @ 8:52 pm

    This notion that current cynicism and skepticism is simply partisan propaganda is missing the point. There are reasons to distrust the media. There are reasons to distrust practically any federal agency you can name. There are reasons to distrust every single politician that gets in front of a microphone. There are reasons to distrust the “experts”. That’s neither deluded or deranged.

    And yes, there are reasons to distrust the election system generally, independent of party. Consistently re-contextualizing valid issues as partisan issues won’t make that go away.

    But going right to calling any of that deluded and deranged does undermine

    Did you think I was suggesting that as a remedy?

    just a little bit.

    For my part I’ve always considered any and all political bantering far game. These post-Trump rules about what speech fundamentally undermines democracy seem counter-productive.

    frosty (a09280)

  49. Sammy, when you expressly trade in your phone because it is broken, worn-out, or Verizon switched to 5G, do you give them the right to recover the information on it as well as the gold and palladium? Pom-pom acquired the right to the hardware, not to the Hunter’s emails and browsing history.

    nk (1b9693) — 6/22/2022 @ 6:54 am

    If you leave a box of old papers someplace there’s no expectation of privacy in the contents. Police don’t need a warrant to rummage through your trash. If you rent a storage unit and then fail to make payments the contents of the unit are surrendered and, yes, that includes whatever information you abandoned.

    This is why you should wipe your phone before you trade it in or sell it.

    It’s understandable that Hunter doesn’t understand that he abandoned the laptops. It’s also understandable that people who don’t want to talk about the Biden’s deals with China and Ukraine and random illegal activity want to change the subject.

    frosty (a09280)

  50. Anthony Edwards: You just shot that man in the back!

    Louis Gossett, Jr.: His back was to me.

    nk (1b9693)

  51. Is the noun form of “indiscriminate” “indiscrimination” or “indiscriminateness”? I’ve seen it written both ways.

    nk (1b9693)

  52. And yes, there are reasons to distrust the election system generally, independent of party. Consistently re-contextualizing valid issues as partisan issues won’t make that go away.

    But going right to calling any of that deluded and deranged does undermine

    frosty,

    If you are going to quote me, quote me accurately. Do not again make me waste time correcting the way you quote me. I very much dislike having my time wasted in that way.

    What, specifically, did I call “deluded and deranged”? Any failure to understand that there is nothing but partisan horseshit as a basis to question Joe Biden’s legitimacy.

    Questioning Joe Biden’s legitimacy is a far cry from having “reasons to distrust the election system” generally.

    I’m interested to hear your very specific reasons that you distrust the electoral process, to see whether they are rooted in specific concerns backed by factual evidence, or generalized non-specific handwaving rooted in excessive cynicism. Feel free to name specifics, if you can.

    But I repeat: if your distrust of the system has gone so far that you distrust Biden’s legitimacy, you are truly deluded and deranged. No reasonable person believes there was any fraud significant enough to swing the election, and anyone who believes that is deranged by partisanship, and has been deluded by a barrage of lies. I hope that’s not you.

    Patterico (859395)

  53. The most repellent part of both Trumpism and wokism is that if some unucky common person runs afoul of either, the operatives of the movement seek to destroy that person. It is a both sides problem — whether one side or the other is “worse” depends on the day and the issues in play that day.

    In this case — the conspiracy people, desperate for support for unsubstantiated theories, locked on to two women volunteers who sought to do their civic duty and remorselessly wrecked their lives. If you wonder why decent people stay out of politics — THIS.

    People doing the equivalency thing point to the Hunter Biden laptop guy and the grief he has suffered. Since he chose to disclose somebody else’s private information, and chose to give the info to a political operative, and chose to publicize himself in ding so, he’s in a different class than these two victims. The election office personnel were effectively doxxed for secretly handing over a ginger snap.

    We hear a lot about populism these days. A true populist would stand up to politicians who try to drag civic minded citizens through the mud and destroy them. A true populist would not be the powerful guy who seeks to destroy a citizen for the sake of advancing a bogus theory.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  54. @Patterico, @Dana, @thread:

    Can we all try to make better distinction between those who believes Biden’s election WAS legitimate, and yet had problems with how the election was conducted. (I fall into this camp and think many of those who you’ve responded to do as well)

    The fact is: We don’t know if the shady things done in last election made any measurable impact. In fact, I’d argue it’s impossible to EVER make that determination because there’s no way to track a single vote to a specific voter. That’s the price for building in anonymity into the system. So, the only thing left is to do some peripheral meta analysis, such as # of registered voters vs # of vote casted, things like that, and I’ve seen/heard weird variances of the sort.

    Maybe there are very rational explanations for these variances, or such abnormally had minimal (if any) impact overall.

    But I don’t think this nation had ever gotten to have that rational discussion. Part of that is because of the partisan-Trumpers over exaggerating/outright lies, ie “The Big Lie™”. The other part, which is a reflective defense of Biden, is that ANY questions regarding the conduct of the election is a step too far in having a rational discourse and is immediately branded as someone pushing “The Big Lie™”, despite having sincere misgivings.

    Yes, there are those (primarily Trump voters) who sincerely believes the election was stolen and believes “The Big Lie™”.

    I’d argue the answer to dealing with these folks is not to hand wave their concerns, but to actually engage in the manner that it is presumed not to be “deranged by partisanship”. Other wise, it’s actively pigeonholing their concerns to such a degree that entices these folks to “double-down” and they feel like their concerns are not adequately being addressed.

    These people’s votes count too.

    whembly (7e0293)

  55. @Patterico, I just saw this (goes to show I need to start reading threads to the end):

    Questioning Joe Biden’s legitimacy is a far cry from having “reasons to distrust the election system” generally.

    Agreed, and I just wanted to reiterate that my previous post wasn’t really directed at you.

    Its just that, in general here and elsewhere, there’s an awful lot of conflation between having distrusts to the election system v. the Big Lie.

    whembly (7e0293)

  56. There’s enough to question the complete accuracy of the election, but the evidence for actual fraud in any given state has been in the hundreds, not the thousands or tens of thousands that Trump has alleged. There is simply no proof, no legitimate reason to question Biden’s legitimacy as POTUS, much as I’d rather have not have him or Trump as president.
    If the guardians of this site want to draw that line as a topic for discussion, I have no argument, just like I have no argument for that same line when commenters allege that the Covid vaccines have killed thousands.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  57. I’m interested to hear your very specific reasons that you distrust the electoral process, to see whether they are rooted in specific concerns backed by factual evidence, or generalized non-specific handwaving rooted in excessive cynicism. Feel free to name specifics, if you can.

    Mail-in ballots as a general rule are suspect. Anything that involves checking signatures is suspect. Anything that doesn’t rely on a person checking someone’s identification against a list of valid voters before they cast a ballot is suspect.

    The larger and more extensive the use of those things are the more suspect the process is. You may trust all of those things. It’s not unreasonable to be skeptical of them.

    I don’t need a very specific case of voter fraud swinging a specific election to look at a process and decide it’s insufficient to the task.

    But for a specific example, PA has ruled against the mail in ballot law. That may get overruled but what happens if that stands? Would it then be reasonable to question the legitimacy of PA’s electoral votes? I don’t know the math there so maybe not.

    What, specifically, did I call “deluded and deranged”?

    This started as a general comment about elections, ref: @4 and @6. You changed that from “any opposition” and “elections” and to “distrust Biden’s legitimacy”. There have also been a number of other posts here centered around the idea that the problem is that people have unreasonably lost trust in institutions as opposed to institutions have destroyed any trust they’ve earned. It’s fair to return to the “any opposition” and “elections”, i.e. the larger context, in my comment. I think it’s much more interesting than distrusting Biden’s legitimacy, i.e. the big lie. It’s also much safer since we’ve been warned against any dissent on that topic.

    frosty (e2f7cb)

  58. Despite Bowers’ testimony of the harassment he faced from Trump and his subordinates and his zealot followers, he would still vote for Trump over Biden in 2024. No door #3?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  59. There is simply no proof, no legitimate reason to question Biden’s legitimacy as POTUS, much as I’d rather have not have him or Trump as president.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 6/22/2022 @ 9:28 am

    No one is doing that in this thread. The rule was laid down in the first comment and it hasn’t been violated yet.

    If the guardians of this site want to draw that line as a topic for discussion

    No one disagrees with this either. At this point is there even any reason to post this? Is anyone confused that the site owners and moderators actually own and moderate the site? The rare cases when this even seems like a thing usually aren’t. But if you want echo chambers, that’s how you get them.

    frosty (e2f7cb)

  60. Would it then be reasonable to question the legitimacy of PA’s electoral votes?

    Yes, it would, as the PA ruling did not address the previous election results. They did NOT say “These votes are suspect.”

    What they said was “the procedure employed ran afoul of state constitutional requirements and cannot be employed in the future.”

    Saying that a procedure is technically invalid does not mean that votes produced using it were fraudulent, or even suspect.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  61. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 6/22/2022 @ 9:41 am

    We’re in a vicious cycle. The people who said they’d vote for anyone other than HRC weren’t joking. The people who said they’d vote for anyone other than DT weren’t either. Now we’ve got JB and KH. We’re not breaking the cycle yet.

    And it’s not just POTUS. We shouldn’t even be talking about Abrams, Warnock, Walker, Tuberville, Beto, MTG, etc. It’s not a short list of people who shouldn’t be in the running for dog catcher much less offices at the federal level.

    frosty (e2f7cb)

  62. Saying that a procedure is technically invalid does not mean that votes produced using it were fraudulent, or even suspect.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 6/22/2022 @ 9:50 am

    Whether they were fraudulent isn’t the point and I didn’t make that claim. They shouldn’t have existed at all and we have no way of knowing how those votes would have been cast via means that are constitutional.

    frosty (e2f7cb)

  63. First, and most important, my sympathy to Moss and Freeman. I hope that they can get compensation for what they have gone through — and are going through, now. And I hope — as any ethical person should — that those responsible for their suffering are punished, in some way. I feel those especially strongly because I am so fond of the volunteer election workers, who do so much for us. (When Washington state still had voting in person, I always thanked them, and once volunteered to fetch some coffee for them, from a nearby Starbucks.)

    Second, and more generally, I hope we can move away from the “tribalism” so common on the left, and among the Trumpistas. We have serious problems that we should be working on, and to solve them we will often need to work together.

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  64. Saying that a procedure is technically invalid does not mean that votes produced using it were fraudulent, or even suspect.

    The argument from some MAGA people boils down to: “The procedure was not to my liking, and therefore Trump is the legitimate winner.” Just sow doubt about the procedure – then claim victory. That was the Eastman strategy, with the added elements of causing chaos and putting the law itself into question — then throwing the decision to people who could be relied upon to make the “correct” choice.

    Radegunda (971d37)

  65. Of course, those questioning voting processes in various presidential primaries are NOT questioning the voting processes in the same states for down ballot Republicans.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  66. Of course, those questioning voting processes in various presidential primaries are NOT questioning the voting processes in the same states for down ballot Republicans.

    For some people, facts are fungible.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  67. we have no way of knowing how those votes would have been cast via means that are constitutional.

    Which brings up the point: “And your point?”

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  68. The most repellent part of both Trumpism and wokism is that if some unucky common person runs afoul of either, the operatives of the movement seek to destroy that person.

    Ask a Bircher; welcome to 1964.

    The realignment has been underway for several cycles, chiefly due to the repeatedly seduced and abandoned electorate. It’s messy, sometimes counter intuitive if not seemingly wild and incoherent, but the sheep have been sheared too close, too often. And they’ve had enough. Been there before in ’64. Hence populism is rooting deeper and deeper– and the dust has yet to settle. The tail no longer wags the dog: those now shuffled to the bottom of the deck have shown they cannot lead and will not follow… so best get out of the way– or get run over– or out of the party. Again, ask a Bircher.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  69. Radegunda (971d37) — 6/22/2022 @ 10:18 am

    The argument from some NeverTrump people boils down to: “Some MAGA people say …” Basically, just make a vague ad-hom and then claim victory. That’s the Biden strategy, with the added elements for causing chaos and conflict. Then relying on propaganda from the media and people woefully unqualified to reliably pick up trash along side the road without adult supervision.

    I guess I don’t personally know enough MAGA people to have directly heard any of them do this “and therefore” thing. In my experience NeverTrumpers are the most common source for what MAGA people are saying.

    frosty (e2f7cb)

  70. …….we have no way of knowing how those votes would have been cast via means that are constitutional.

    frosty (e2f7cb) — 6/22/2022 @ 10:02 am

    What means do you consider “unconstitutional”?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  71. If you want to know what “some MAGA people say,” visit here.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  72. @69. Thing is, with $7/gallon gas, empty shelves, supply chain issues, school kids gunned down far too often and borrowed billions given to a corrupt regime in Europe, ‘Down with MAGA, save the party, pass the Grey Poupon’ is not a winning strategy; ‘are you better off now than you were 4 years ago’ is. If Trump runs again, he’ll win.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  73. we have no way of knowing how those votes would have been cast via means that are constitutional.

    Which brings up the point: “And your point?”

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 6/22/2022 @ 10:27 am

    That if you’re told it wasn’t constitutional and you’re uncertain of the result if it were done constitutionally you’re not in a good position to assert that a) it was done constitutionally (i.e. free and fair) and b) it wouldn’t have mattered.

    frosty (e2f7cb)

  74. #69, #71 Actually, “some MAGA people” were identified pretty clearly in the post:

    A former Georgia election worker told the Jan. 6 committee on Tuesday that “lies” spread by then-President Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani about her and her mother taking part in a voter fraud scheme led to death threats and harassment in the wake of the 2020 presidential election.

    I think, as I said previously, that Moss and Freeman deserve compensation, and that those responsible — to begin with, Trump and Giuliana — should be punished.

    (Haiku and frosty could clarify their arguments by agreeing — or disagreeing — with either or both of those claims, as to what should happen, now.)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  75. We’re in a vicious cycle.

    Is it a “vicious cycle”, or is it that both major political parties are so dysfunctional that they can’t or won’t deliver nominees that aren’t unfit or unhinged or senile? I’m going with dysfunctional.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  76. Breaking News:

    Stinky Squinty McStumblebum gives America gas; calls for 18 cent/gallon tax holiday; begs states to cut some, too.

    … and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, smiled.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  77. My God, Biden has never packed so many sh-t-shovelling lies into one presser as he has in this gas tax announcement.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  78. Looking into Biden’s eyes as he tells his latest lies up on a stage about oil and price for same. Yeah this SOB is legitimate alright… as legitimate as a heart attack.

    Get this idiot off the world stage.

    Colonel Haiku (1408c7)

  79. @78. Did you listen to that imbecile??????? He’s brain-dead and shovelling more sh-t than the North Korean army at a pig farm.

    “It’s Putin’s fault.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  80. The argument from some NeverTrump people boils down to: “Some MAGA people say …” Basically, just make a vague ad-hom and then claim victory.

    That’s a ridiculous evasion. The Eastman strategy — in the end, the strategy of Trump — was to cause chaos, and commit “1 more relatively minor violation” of election law (Eastman’s words), and then throw the decision to partisan allies in a few states. That’s not a vague claim or an ad hominem. It is all on the record.

    It’s not “ad hominem” to note how Trumpers leap from complaining about flaws in the process, to declaring that Trump was “undoubtedly” the rightful winner — without feeling a need to provide evidence that the alleged flaws in the process caused a swing from Trump to Biden.

    That’s been pretty consistent across MAGA land: “The process was bad, and therefore Trump was cheated.” The attitude is crystallized in the New Mexico election commissioner who openly declared that he didn’t have evidence of fraud in the recent election there, but his “gut” feeling was all he needed.

    Today, a large majority of Republicans believe the “rigged election” myth despite the dearth of evidence supporting it — and despite the evidence undermining it.

    I think it was Gabe Sterling who recently spoke of how he listed all the facts refuting the “stolen election” myth, only to have an acquaintance say he still felt in his heart that Trump really won.

    That’s what MAGA land is running on: Gut feeling. No evidence needed.

    Radegunda (971d37)

  81. Jim Miller (406a93) — 6/22/2022 @ 11:00 am

    Is this a principled position you’re taking? That politicians generally should be punished for statements that cause harm? Or just in this case?

    I’m not sure what you’re claiming my argument is with respect to Moss and Freeman. What are you looking for me to clarify? Or is this the nicest way you can think of to ask me my opinion?

    frosty (82661f)

  82. Before I respond, please clarify specifically what you are referring to here:

    It’s also much safer since we’ve been warned against any dissent on that topic.

    Dana (1225fc)

  83. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 6/22/2022 @ 11:01 am

    is it that both major political parties are so dysfunctional that they can’t or won’t deliver nominees that aren’t unfit or unhinged or senile? I’m going with dysfunctional.

    They’re too powerful. Reinforced by campaign finance law.

    Sammy Finkelman (c89e81)

  84. Crikey…now the infrastructure booster types have their excuse to abandon old man Joe. Between the rock of increased material prices and the hard place of now unreliable federal matching funds.

    urbanleftbehind (bd7e3d)

  85. Paul: “is it that both major political parties are so dysfunctional [?]”

    I think “we the people” became dysfunctional first. The internet and cable news have made politics into a new form of sport or entertainment….where the quest is no longer for truth (genuine understanding), but it’s an exercise in spinning so my side looks the best possible and the other side looks as bad as possible. Trump is the perfect example of taking this to an extreme and modeling the dysfunction for all to see.

    Media became first and foremost about entertainment rather than truth….it’s why cable news is dominated by opinionators and the hard news has to be processed through an ideologically friendly filter. Right now Jan 6th is being examined by two really different lenses.

    Trump could never have emerged 40 years ago because the gatekeepers would have rightly rejected him as unqualified, unfit, and unserious. Talk Radio was not yet packaging politics for the masses. FNC/MSNBC had not arrived yet to spin things. The internet wasn’t there to ratchet anxiety. Parties had real power 40 years ago. Trump coopted FNC and Talk Radio and made parties irrelevant. He took the most extreme rhetoric that had been percolating in right-wing media, added a touch of Wrestlemania, and now has Lindsey Graham “afraid”. Is it healthy that an 18-year veteran Senator is afraid to speak out against the behavior of an ex-President? No.

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  86. 85,

    I think that Trump was the natural outcome of what you mentioned (Talk Radio, FNC, cable, etc). It was almost as if each entity was a building block necessary for who was to come. America was ready. Segments of the population were sufficiently angered (rightly so in many instances). Along with anger and injustice being stoked on a daily basis, the natural result was an us v. them mentality, which lead to Trump and his “drain the swamp” promises. People were primed and ready to latch onto anyone who could tap into that deep vein of frustration. And I think because so many felt desperate, they were willing to look the other way on so many vexing issues about Trump because they needed him (to fight for them). When you step back, the progression of events makes sense. Of course, I’m not saying it was good, clearly. But the steps are pretty clear.

    Dana (1225fc)

  87. Don’t blame the messengers.

    DCSCA (8bceae)

  88. Biden’s the president. I pray the country can weather his clownshow administration until The Big Correction can be made in 2024.

    Colonel Haiku (1408c7)

  89. There won’t necessarily be a correction

    Although Carter, Bush I and Trump were not re-elected. Ford was a reasonably good president but lost.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  90. 86. Trump said things that, at one and the same time, none of his opponents would agree with but neither were were they prepared to disagree.

    He did best in closed Republican primaries in states where Republican Party always lost.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  91. 20. DCSCA (d73ea7) — 6/21/2022 @ 7:20 pm

    Lest you forget, when John Dean testified to the Watergate Senate committee, with immunity, he talked in a monotone voice

    Which was a further – I won’t say proof – indication to me that he was lying.

    The only possible reason he had for doin that was that he was afraid of the voice stress analyzer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_stress_analysis

    It didn’t really work, which is why you don’t hear much about it now. I think it didn’t detect anything the human ear couldn’t discern. It just attached a label to it. And adopting a monotone would not defeat it because I don’t think that was the kind of stress it detected.

    John Dean changed slight details many times. He would make other people be responsible for a lot of what he did. His memory apppeared t many peoole to be very good. Well, of course, he was making up alot of his stuff.

    and read his entire testimony in four lengthy sessions over four days. American audiences today barely sit through a half-hour sitcom. The way this is being presented today- even with TeeVee clips, is just very poor and can put a cat to sleep.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  92. Dana: “Segments of the population were sufficiently angered (rightly so in many instances).”

    I wonder if people were righteously angered….or whether it was manufactured and exploited?

    A lot of measures of life are on average better now than they were in 1990. Until Covid, we had decreasing crime, low inflation, modest economic growth, and increasing life expectancy. Certainly globalization has created direct economic winners and losers, but everyone has benefited from low cost goods (until the the supply chain got hit of course). More people go to college, there is less overt racism and sexism, the abortion rate has consistently fallen, and most people have access to the internet, smart phones, and streaming services (ok, not a definitive measure but this all goes to more leisure time).

    So why are people so angry? FWO is really angry about cultural stuff. Should he be? Gay people marrying hasn’t created all of the horrors that Rick Santorum predicted….none really. Yes we have transsexual weirdness and wokism and cancel culture and CRT and kneeling football players and de-gendering “Mr.” Potato Head, but how much directly impacts us? Yes, we hear stories but should wokism for example keep me awake (or awoke) at night? How about CRT? The speed of information is so much faster now than in 1990 but I’m not sure if that is what is actually making us more neurotic.

    Maybe we’re losing connectedness because of our tech distractions and we’re becoming more susceptible to Chicken Littling and bubble-anxiety. When someone claims government has consistently let us down….I’m like….maybe we have unrealistic expectations about government….and should focus more on our local lives. I don’t know…it’s not to say that we don’t have festering issues….both secular and cultural…it’s just that it doesn’t seem as bad as some people like to make it out to be….

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  93. I think “we the people” became dysfunctional first.

    I get what you’re sayin’, AJ, but I think that’s a little too easy. IMO, the hardliners in both parties have too much sway and pulled agendas too far from the more moderate elements. Talk radio is part of it, but liberal talk radio scarcely exists, so I think the internet and social media has played a larger role.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  94. A_J_Liberty Here’s some data on life expectancy:

    The average life expectancy in the United States has been on a decline since 2014. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention cites three main reasons: a 72% increase in overdoses in the last decade (including a 30% increase in opioid overdoses from July 2016 to September 2017, but did not differentiate between accidental overdose with a legal prescription and overdose with opioids obtained illegally and/or combined with illegal drugs i.e., heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc.), a ten-year increase in liver disease (the rate for men age 25 to 34 increased by 8% per year; for women, by 11% per year), and a 33% increase in suicide rates since 1999.[42]

    From 2019 to 2020, the COVID-19 pandemic contributed to approximately 74% of the decrease in life expectancy in the United States.

    I agree with Charles Murray that this decline — and other social problems — have been mostly caused by our weakening families, and communities. At least for the bottom 80 percent.

    But I don’t see any obvious solutions, at least not any that can attract voters to a politician. (In contrast, there are often solutions to our economic problems that are politically viable.)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  95. Before I respond, please clarify specifically what you are referring to here:

    It’s also much safer since we’ve been warned against any dissent on that topic.

    Dana (1225fc) — 6/22/2022 @ 12:03 pm

    If you push the big lie here, you will find yourself in moderation.

    Dana (1225fc) — 6/21/2022 @ 5:20 pm

    Claiming that Biden is an illegitimate POTUS because of the election is just a different way of pushing the big lie.

    It’s not common that I’m assigned viewpoints that are inferred from, rather than expressed in, my comments. But I don’t want to find myself in moderation due to a misunderstanding and this seems like a warning that was important enough to post a comment on. So, it’s safer to avoid that area of discussion.

    frosty (6844fa)

  96. @92 As usual, great comment, AJ.

    Broadly speaking, each generation has had it better than the previous generation. Yes, some high-paying manufacturing jobs are gone, but when blue jeans and other goods are cheaper than they were 40 years ago–in nominal terms!–because of free trade, it doesn’t matter as much.

    I don’t like the gas prices and inflation, but the party in power will pay for those things come November.

    Biden and his advisors are idiots for not nipping those problems in the bud.

    If you talk about how you want to do away with oil, don’t be surprised when the oil companies don’t spend money on finding more oil.

    (A corollary: If you talk about how you want to forgive student loan debt, don’t be surprised when borrowers stop making payments on those loans.)

    As for inflation, when the government floods the economy with more money, and the Fed keeps interest rates too low for too long, it shouldn’t be a surprise when inflation erupts.

    They’re going to have their asses handed to them in the election, and I fear that in the process we’re going to get more election-denying Trump-humpers.

    The choice between Biden’s idiocy and Trump’s corruption is a sh!t sandwich either way, but alas, the voters still have a tendency to vote for the wrong people in the primaries.

    norcal (da5491)

  97. IMO, the hardliners in both parties have too much sway and pulled agendas too far from the more moderate elements.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 6/22/2022 @ 3:10 pm

    The hardliners have sway because too many voters support them. The problem is the people. They aren’t discerning enough, and fall for the hardliner spin.

    Of course, social media and ideological cable TV only exacerbates the confirmation bias.

    norcal (da5491)

  98. A lot of measures of life are on average better now than they were in 1990.

    Not necessarily:

    Worldwide, People Divided on Whether Life Today Is Better Than in the Past

    U.S. 41% Worse; 31% Better

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2017/12/05/worldwide-people-divided-on-whether-life-today-is-better-than-in-the-past/

    ____________

    @91. Except he WASN’T – as corroborated by the yyapes, Sammy.

    DCSCA (71b099)

  99. A lot of measures of life are on average better now than they were in 1990. Until Covid, we had decreasing crime, low inflation, modest economic growth, and increasing life expectancy. Certainly globalization has created direct economic winners and losers, but everyone has benefited from low cost goods (until the the supply chain got hit of course). More people go to college, there is less overt racism and sexism, the abortion rate has consistently fallen, and most people have access to the internet, smart phones, and streaming services (ok, not a definitive measure but this all goes to more leisure time).

    That reality has been so effectively erased in the public mind by extremists on both sides who traffic in the grievances that fuel their activism, and whose world-view is thus threatened by gratitude and social tranquility, that to so much as suggest that life is generally better now than it used to be evinces anger and derision.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  100. Re-posting a link I mistakenly put in the wrong thread:

    This post
    is a useful primer on the legal hurdles to prosecuting Trump. It’s worth a look by those who believe Trump’s guilt is so obvious that they can’t fathom why he hasn’t been indicted yet. (Count me among those who’s convinced well beyond a reasonable doubt of Trump’s moral culpability. But as the linked post ably explains, legally punishable criminal culpability is another matter.)

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  101. Trump has always complained that libel laws are too weak. Maybe these folks should try them out against him. Bet you he settles.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 6/21/2022 @ 6:56 pm

    These two women may have among the most plausible defamation cases against Trump I’ve seen yet.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  102. @101. The United States will never put an ex-POTUS in prison. Bad look.

    Lori Loughlin served more time than Donald Trump ever will or Richard Nixon ever did.

    DCSCA (71b099)

  103. Never forget the threats to Liz Cheney that she would lose her house seat. Because its actually going to happen

    steveg (9125a5)

  104. Bad look.

    DCSCA (71b099) — 6/22/2022 @ 5:18 pm

    To the contrary, it shows that we live under the rule of law, and that everybody is subject to it, even Presidents.

    norcal (da5491)

  105. Or do you think we should have a royalty?

    norcal (da5491)

  106. To the contrary, it shows that we live under the rule of law, and that everybody is subject to it, even Presidents.
    norcal (da5491) — 6/22/2022 @ 7:10 pm

    i don’t know where you live, norcal, but I know it’s not anywhere near the southern border

    JF (58a5eb)

  107. The hardliners have sway because too many voters support them. The problem is the people.

    this shows how hardliners don’t think they’re hardliners

    JF (58a5eb)

  108. @105. ROFLMAOPIP You seem to believe we don’t have Royalists already.

    Tally up the days they work and the time off- including the lazy-azzed SCOTUS bureaucrats; then ask yourself why UNITED STATES AG Garland was over wooing Ukrainians about war crimes when our kids are slaughtered in schools, our borders wide open, drugs pour in and street crime is out of control. WTF.

    You must think Americans ‘stormed the castle’ for a free podium.

    DCSCA (64a009)

  109. @101. The United States will never put an ex-POTUS in prison. Bad look.

    Prison? No. Defamation suit with punitive damages of half a billion dollars. Hit him in his wallet — it’s his most sensitive spot.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  110. The war is not yet over, but Ukraine has already lost

    I’m sure that cheers you up. Me, I’d just as soon given them a few nukes.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  111. Prison? No.

    Prison? Yes. It would be the best look ever, if nothing more than proof that even Presidents are subject to the law.

    Taiwan sent its ex-President to prison, and it is a thriving democracy.

    norcal (da5491)

  112. @112. $53 BILLION extorted by Bugs’Z’ Moran to one of the most corrupt regimes on Earth.

    =sarc= “Well, as long as it’s money well spent.”- John Brackett [Howard St. John] ‘Lover Come Back’ 1961

    DCSCA (dc8be1)

  113. Taiwan sent its ex-President to prison, and it is a thriving democracy.

    norcal (da5491) — 6/22/2022 @ 10:17 pm

    Israel too.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  114. (Prime Minister, the parliamentary functional equivalent.)

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  115. It’s contagious:

    Tampa Bay Lightning coach Jon Cooper suggests Colorado Avalanche OT goal shouldn’t have counted

    What’s a hockey team doing in Florida, anyway?

    nk (03433c)

  116. Other locations were taken and people move to Florida from other places.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  117. Fifty years ago, the world was a very different place. The United States and its allies were locked in a Cold War with the Soviet Union, personal computers and mobile phones were the stuff of science fiction,

    Calculators were just becoming available.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  118. Another hearing at 1 pm EDT.Nothing from these hearings will braak through until it gets used in campaign ads and in candidate debates.

    But they must stick to the truth.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  119. 117 – following snowbirds and being a thing to do for younger relatives from northern hockey towns.

    Meanwhile this gets the Denzel Washington Training Day Mah _____a meme treatment:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/mo-brooks-testify-to-the-january-6-panel-if-subpoenaed-2022-6

    urbanleftbehind (5145e7)

  120. Biden seems to think oil companies get gas for free and set whatever price they feel like. A true science denier.

    Watch ‘em flee as the wheels fall off the wagon.

    Colonel Haiku (1408c7)

  121. Today’s hearing will actually start at 3 pm, which probably means it wiil be short. This is the hearing that was originally going to be held on Wednesday, June 15.

    There will be no hearings next week, but more in July. Plans are still up in the air, and they want to use some information that is coming in, Some voluntarily, some by subpoena. They think they can use British documentary footage of Trump and people close to him from the period after the November, 2020 election.

    They’d also like, if possible, to get Mike Pence, and I think if that happens it will happen sometime latrr. Adam Schiff wants to subpoena him.,

    Sammy Finkelman (c89e81)

  122. Sammy, I’ve read they’re putting the show “on ice”, gonna give it an “Icecapades” theme and look to increase the box office.

    Colonel Haiku (1408c7)

  123. @115. Pfft. Yeah, them there teeny-weeny superpowers suckling at Lady Liberty’s teet know how to tell Americans how to operate.

    Don’t they.

    When Zelinsky is jailed for extortion, get back to me.

    DCSCA (e61075)

  124. Today’s hearing is focusing on one seemingly uncorrupt or easy thing Trump wanted the Department of Justice to do: To send a letter to state officials falsely claiming that they’d found evidence pointing to major fraud in the election.

    Sammy Finkelman (c89e81)

  125. And they’d told him the opposite.

    This is besides it being a violation of rules to send out such a letter, even if true.

    Sammy Finkelman (c89e81)

  126. They had no footage of Cippilone – he on;y gave an interview= that was not transcribed.

    They held a closed door hearing yesterday morning with Alex Holder the British documentarian.

    Trump actually made a number of requests to the Justice Department – the letter was the culmination of them. rump probably figured a big reason was they were afraid if consequences – therefore he minimized what he was asking.

    I think Trump was lying throughout, including by predicting what would happen. No one should assume he had any plan worked out or that he was confident in it. When he said let him and the Republican members of Congress do the rest it doesn’t mean he had any reason at that point to expect his plans to work.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  127. 115, South Korea.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  128. When Trump asked “What di have to lose?” Trump probably thought or meant what did he have to lose in trying to get that letter sent: Rosen would not send it but Clark might ormight help him change the election result in soe=me other way, but his inteerlocuter understood that ti=o neab what did he have to lose in changing the Attorney General (fir 17 bddays) He thought that was a very good opening.

    Sammy Finkelman (c89e81)

  129. They kept and keep talking about “fake” electors. That term is not accurate, They weren’t fake. A more neutral term is alternate electors, but if you want to describe exactly what was wrong with them, the right term should be “false” electors.

    Sammy Finkelman (c89e81)


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