Patterico's Pontifications

12/10/2020

Trump Still Trying to Pull Off an Autogolpe

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:26 am



It’s a word I learned recently by reading an Allahpundit post and it fits:

President Donald Trump warned Georgia Attorney General Chris Carr not to rally other Republican officials against a long-shot Texas lawsuit seeking to toss out the state’s election results, according to several people with direct knowledge of the conversation.

The roughly 15-minute phone call late Tuesday came shortly before U.S. Sens. Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue issued a joint statement saying they “fully support” the improbable lawsuit asking the U.S. Supreme Court to reject election results in Georgia and three other battleground states that Trump lost.

Earlier in the day, Carr’s office called the lawsuit by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton “constitutionally, legally and factually wrong.” The complaint asks the justices to delay the Monday deadline for certification of presidential electors in Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

The two men spoke at the urging of Perdue, who along with Loeffler also received calls from Trump about Carr’s opposition to the lawsuit, according to three Republican officials, two of whom described Trump as “furious” in his call with Loeffler over the attorney general’s stance.

Minutes after Trump and Carr hung up, the two senators issued a joint statement proclaiming their support for the Paxton lawsuit.

You know, I thought I favored the GOP winning in the Georgia runoff, but I don’t really think I do any more. This lawsuit is a patently meritless regurgitation of already-rejected claims and is really nothing more than a pretext for a dictatorial grab of power. On one hand, I want the GOP to hold the Senate — but if it doesn’t, because these two people of low character can’t pull it off, then oh well.

Is Trump going to stop this nonsense on December 14? Or January 5? Or January 6? Or January 20?

Or ever?

186 Responses to “Trump Still Trying to Pull Off an Autogolpe”

  1. I prefer divided government.

    Simon Jester (58ffc9)

  2. I do too. And you have to use flawed people to achieve it. But something really rubs me the wrong way about this coup attempt. It’s not normal politics.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  3. Even die-hard Trump supporters have to admit that what he is doing here is jeopardizing the chances that the Republicans will control the Senate.

    norcal (7a31c4)

  4. Are all narcissists also dictators?

    Maybe not. But this one is.

    noel (9fead1)

  5. Even die-hard Trump supporters have to admit that what he is doing here is jeopardizing the chances that the Republicans will control the Senate.

    norcal (7a31c4) — 12/10/2020 @ 8:34 am

    Die-hard Trump fans have sold their soul to the devil. Trump just wants another term to sate his ego. Trump cares nothing about conservative values, or the Republican party. Much less the country in general.

    Die-hard Trump fans, at this point, are not Republicans or conservatives. They are fans of an authoritarian state.

    Hoi Polloi (7cefeb)

  6. We are talking about a “coup attempt”. And we should have known it was coming when Trump started accusing others of treason.

    Projecting.

    noel (9fead1)

  7. Losing the Senate simply means Biden/Harris supporters get what they voted for good and hard.

    You’re now expecting the gift of divided government only because you put a Dem in charge. What a ridiculous plan.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  8. So convince me. If the Senate is 50-50 then people like Mancin and Arizona’s Sinema hold the balance of power. What actual terrible policy results do you think will come out of such a Senate?

    And isn’t some hope of actually getting appointments through at a reasonable rate something of a tradeoff? Let alone a realistic recovery package for the economy? Mitch’s only play, or at least the only he really enjoys, is bollixing things up and profiting from the dysfunction.

    Divided government, today, means no functional legislative branch, an executive branch that limps along with temporary measures, and an intermittently and almost arbitrarily powerful judiciary.

    Is this what we really want moving ahead?

    Victor (4959fb)

  9. Is Trump going to stop this nonsense on December 14? Or January 5? Or January 6? Or January 20?

    Or ever?

    No.

    Glenn (a56320)

  10. Just try to imagine if this election scenario were the other way around. If Trump had won the popular vote by 7 million and was victorious in the electoral college. What if Biden were pulling all of these desperate maneuvers to overturn the election? What would Trump and his followers would be doing right now? Barr and the Republicans in Congress?

    Remember, he wanted Biden arrested… before the election.

    noel (9fead1)

  11. Is Trump going to stop this nonsense on December 14? Or January 5? Or January 6? Or January 20? Or ever?

    “It’s just Trump being Trump!”

    Even die-hard Trump supporters have to admit that what he is doing here is jeopardizing the chances that the Republicans will control the Senate.

    They’ll still say it was NeverTrumpers and RINOs trying to make Trump look bad.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  12. Is Trump going to stop this nonsense on December 14? Or January 5? Or January 6? Or January 20?

    Or ever?

    Nope. He’ll pull a Stacey Abraham.

    Once he’s out of office, it’ll be much easier to “push him aside” – even though he’ll want to play the kingmaker role.

    Having said that, I believe it’s vitally important to get GOP majority in the Senate, so that the WORST tendencies of the House/Biden WH are mitigated.

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  13. No, he’s not; he’s going to go to his grave insisting that the election was stolen from him, and it will be party dogma for at least half a decade.

    Welcome to the new America, where everyone thinks the only way the other side can win is fraud, and nobody trusts our institutions enough to believe anything the representatives of the institutions say.

    Yay?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  14. @8

    So convince me.

    I’ll try.

    If the Senate is 50-50 then people like Mancin and Arizona’s Sinema hold the balance of power.

    Don’t forget that the likes of Collins and Murkowski “flex” on the other side as well.

    What actual terrible policy results do you think will come out of such a Senate?

    Terrible leftist activist judges. (50 Ds + tie breaking Harris)
    Abortion laws
    Gun control laws
    New taxes

    Maybe not the Green New Deal due to Manchin, but maybe something approximating that, which is still bad.

    We really, REALLY need that 51st GOP Senator and preferably 52 GOP Senators so that McConnell has flexibility to lose the likes of Collins, Romney and/or Murkowski.

    And isn’t some hope of actually getting appointments through at a reasonable rate something of a tradeoff?

    How so?

    FWIW, I think slow appointments is here to stay as both GOP & Democrats really didn’t suffer when slow-walking Trump’s appointments.

    Let alone a realistic recovery package for the economy?

    How would it be any MORE realistic when Democrats hypothetically have 50 Ds + Harris??

    Mitch’s only play, or at least the only he really enjoys, is bollixing things up and profiting from the dysfunction.

    Only if he has at least 51 Senators.

    Divided government, today, means no functional legislative branch, an executive branch that limps along with temporary measures, and an intermittently and almost arbitrarily powerful judiciary.

    Is this what we really want moving ahead?

    Victor (4959fb) — 12/10/2020 @ 9:01 am

    Yes. We really want that.

    The alternative to having Democrats controlling the agendas in both houses AND the Whitehouse is much, MUCH worse.

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  15. Stacey Abrams keeps being held up as some epitome of a sore loser, the Democrat that ensure Both Sides Do It. Here are excerpts from her speech ending her election fight, which she lost to the guy, Kemp, who was the Secretary of State running the election. Compare and contrast to what our current president does and says:

    I acknowledge that former Secretary of State Brian Kemp will be certified as the victor in the 2018 gubernatorial election.

    But to watch an elected official—who claims to represent the people of this state, baldly pin his hopes for election on the suppression of the people’s democratic right to vote—has been truly appalling. So, to be clear, this is not a speech of concession.

    Concession means to acknowledge an action is right, true or proper. As a woman of conscience and faith, I cannot concede. But my assessment is that the law currently allows no further viable remedy.

    Now, I could certainly bring a new case to keep this one contest alive, but I don’t want to hold public office if I need to scheme my way into the post. Because the title of Governor isn’t nearly as important as our shared title. Voters.

    Because Georgia still has a decision to make about who will we be in the next election. And the one after that. And the one after that. So we have used this election and its aftermath to diagnose what has been broken in our process:

    Make no mistake, the former Secretary of State was deliberate and intentional in his actions. I know that eight years of systemic disenfranchisement, disinvestment and incompetence had its desired effect on the electoral process in Georgia.

    Pundits and hyper-partisans will hear my words as a rejection of the normal order. I’m supposed to say nice things and accept my fate. They will complain that I should not use this moment to recap what was done wrong or to demand a remedy. As a leader, I should be stoic in my outrage and silent in my rebuke.

    But stoicism is a luxury and silence is a weapon for those who would quiet the voices of the people, and I will not concede because the erosion of our democracy is not right.


    And I will pray for the success of Brian Kemp, that he will indeed be a leader for all Georgians. That he will pledge to fight for the rights of those who disagree with him – and keep his promises. That he will refuse the call of those who see how close this election was. Because we know that some propose to make voting even harder. They see voter engagement in communities of color and cry fraud or lie about the cost of democracy to justify closing more polling places. I pray he will reject this vicious and tired response – in favor of preserving what is left of our state’s reputation for equality and civil rights.

    Victor (4959fb)

  16. @13

    No, he’s not; he’s going to go to his grave insisting that the election was stolen from him, and it will be party dogma for at least half a decade.

    Welcome to the new America, where everyone thinks the only way the other side can win is fraud, and nobody trusts our institutions enough to believe anything the representatives of the institutions say.

    Yay?

    aphrael (4c4719) — 12/10/2020 @ 9:22 am

    Welcome to Democrat’s reaction to losing in 2000/2004 and in 2016.

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  17. “We are now at the stage when a critical mass of the Republican party has adopted Trump’s disordered personality for its own.” Mona Charen

    Radegunda (20775b)

  18. This is what you have brought us, Trump fans.

    Trump tweets today….

    “People are upset, and they have a right to be. Georgia not only supported Trump in 2016, but now. This is the only State in the Deep South that went for Biden? Have they lost their minds? This is going to escalate dramatically. This is a very dangerous moment in our history,” “The fact that our country is being stolen. A coup is taking place in front of our eyes, and the public can’t take this anymore.”

    Republicans in Congress better step up. While they still can. He is burning it all down.

    noel (9fead1)

  19. @16 — How many lawsuits did Dems file in 2016 (or 2004) in an effort to get millions of votes tossed out and have the Dem installed by friendly legislatures?

    Radegunda (20775b)

  20. Terrible leftist activist judges. (50 Ds + tie breaking Harris)
    Abortion laws
    Gun control laws
    New taxes

    Well if those 50 Ds include democratic moderates, exactly how terrible are these judges supposed to be? Was Garland a terrible activist judge? Trump’s picks, outsourced to the Federalist Society, included more people rated unqualified by the ABA than for any other president in prior history. I am not suggesting the D;s should be just as terrible on the other side. What makes you think they would come close (And as for judicial activism, how does that not describe the current Texas lawsuit, and the dismissed Pennsylvania one?)

    Abortion laws. On this I guess we disagree, but I’d be curious if you were more specific about exactly what terrible federal laws would emerge from a 50-50 Congress. The Hyde Amendment? Again I don’t think getting rid of that is terrible and I kind of doubt we’d get there.

    Gun Control laws. Like what? And why would it be terrible?

    New taxes? Perhaps rolling back Trump’s tax cuts for the rich? Does that count as new? Or are tax cuts always and forever supposed to be permanent?

    Forcing Biden to rely solely on temporary appointments is not a good thing. It wasn’t a good thing when Trump was doing it. Sure the D;s slow walked in the first months. But that wasn’t the only reason Trump didn’t appoint people. He preferred temporary appointments. And Mancin voted for some of his appointments, regardless of their (DeVos) qualifications.

    Victor (4959fb)

  21. Whembly — funny, I don’t recall the Democrats in 2016 trumping up frivolous lawsuits, encouraging Obama not to concede, accusing state elections departments of malfeasance, etc.

    Overall the reaction was “this sucks and we can’t believe it happened and the people must have been manipulated into this by foreigners with evil intent, colluding with the Trump campaign”, but that’s a *far cry* from what Republican elected officials are alleging today.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  22. > He is burning it all down.

    which is exactly what the never trump side of the argument has expected since 2015.

    America chose this fate.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  23. I wouldn’t vote for either Loeffler or Perdue if they were running in Illinois, I think they’re both corrupt scum, and I see no reason to want any Georgian to vote for them, either, seeing as how they’ll be corruptly legislating for all off us. Moreover, I will shed no tears for Trump butt gerbils who lose their majority leadership and presidency pro tem and their committee chairs. They can all go suck a meatloaf and wash it down with a Diet Coke.

    nk (1d9030)

  24. Stacy Abrams followed adage “Don’t get made, get even.” And she did. Not only did she help deliver Georgia to Biden, she’s probably weakened Kemp’s reelection possibilities by guaranteeing a primary challenge from the Trump wing (Doug Collins?).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  25. Donald Trump has made his preference of an autocracy over a republic, nothing if not obvious.

    If you had told Barack Obama or George W. Bush he could be guaranteed election to a second term, but only at the cost of permanent disfigurement of American democracy—that America would survive only as a failed republic—do you think either would have taken the deal? I do not. I don’t think even Richard Nixon would have, because Nixon cared about America’s future and was intelligent enough to understand reasonably foreseeable consequences.

    But Trump? It seems highly unlikely that the survival of the republic means anything in particular to him. Incapable of understanding the concept, he’d take that deal without a second thought.

    Purple Martin (34703c)

  26. Abortion laws
    Gun control laws
    New taxes

    Definitely not any new abortion or gun control laws. Moderate Dems won’t vote for them.

    Any tax policy would likely be a roll-back of the Trump tax thing for rich people not in NY or CA, a change to cap gains, or effect people with a salary above 400,000. None of those would make me cry.

    Nic (896fdf)

  27. @19

    @16 — How many lawsuits did Dems file in 2016 (or 2004) in an effort to get millions of votes tossed out and have the Dem installed by friendly legislatures?

    Radegunda (20775b) — 12/10/2020 @ 9:34 am

    If you want to pick on the lawsuits, fine. I don’t see it as “detrimental” as you do because its part of the process. You’d have a point if it looks like Trump is ordering the military for a coup or the like. But, engaging the legal process – no matter how frivolous – is a *good thing* as the courts can stamp some sort of “finality” to the orderal.

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  28. Is Trump going to stop this nonsense on December 14? Or January 5? Or January 6? Or January 20?

    Or ever?

    I’ll take “Questions We Knew the Answer To a Long Time Ago” for four hundred, Alex.

    Dave (1bb933)

  29. @15. Stacy Abrahms:

    And I will pray for the success of Brian Kemp, that he will indeed be a leader for all Georgians. That he will pledge to fight for the rights of those who disagree with him – and keep his promises. That he will refuse the call of those who see how close this election was. Because we know that some propose to make voting even harder. They see voter engagement in communities of color and cry fraud or lie about the cost of democracy to justify closing more polling places. I pray he will reject this vicious and tired response – in favor of preserving what is left of our state’s reputation for equality and civil rights.

    …and in a combination of irony and karma, some of that actually seems, post election, to be happening. Though seemingly forced into it (originally, by sticking with his own choice of appointed Senator versus accepting Trump’s choice), Kemp’s been mostly doing the right thing in defense of Georgia’s 2020 updated and rationalized (mostly) voting processes.

    Who’d a thunk it?

    Purple Martin (34703c)

  30. @20

    Terrible leftist activist judges. (50 Ds + tie breaking Harris)
    Abortion laws
    Gun control laws
    New taxes

    Well if those 50 Ds include democratic moderates, exactly how terrible are these judges supposed to be?

    Because they’re beholden to their party.

    Was Garland a terrible activist judge?

    Yes. He was anti-2nd Amendement, such that if you’re a single-issue Pro 2nd voter, he’s a radical.

    Trump’s picks, outsourced to the Federalist Society, included more people rated unqualified by the ABA than for any other president in prior history.

    The ABA has turned into a political outfit than some neutral “scoring” entity.

    I am not suggesting the D;s should be just as terrible on the other side. What makes you think they would come close

    Because Democrats do a much better job in voting enbloc in the Senate than the GOP.

    (And as for judicial activism, how does that not describe the current Texas lawsuit, and the dismissed Pennsylvania one?)

    That’s…not judicial activism. These judges are righteously throwing out these cases. To entertain these lawsuits AND grant the remedies the plaintiff are asking for WOULD be the height of judicial activism.

    Abortion laws. On this I guess we disagree, but I’d be curious if you were more specific about exactly what terrible federal laws would emerge from a 50-50 Congress. The Hyde Amendment? Again I don’t think getting rid of that is terrible and I kind of doubt we’d get there.

    Democrat House/Senate/Biden WH are ON record to rescinding the Hyde Amendment.

    As a pro-lifer, I’d consider getting rid of the Hyde Amendment terrible.

    Gun Control laws. Like what? And why would it be terrible?

    Every.Single.Gun.Control.Policy by Democrats would be terrible.

    New taxes? Perhaps rolling back Trump’s tax cuts for the rich? Does that count as new? Or are tax cuts always and forever supposed to be permanent?

    Democrats, time and time again, NEVER limits their tax hikes desires to just the rich. Also, they’re on record in removing the local tax deduction cap, which *is* a tax cut for the well-off/rich.

    Forcing Biden to rely solely on temporary appointments is not a good thing. It wasn’t a good thing when Trump was doing it. Sure the D;s slow walked in the first months. But that wasn’t the only reason Trump didn’t appoint people. He preferred temporary appointments.

    I agree with you that it’s not desirable, but I’m convinced that it’s the “new normal”.

    And Mancin voted for some of his appointments, regardless of their (DeVos) qualifications.

    Victor (4959fb) — 12/10/2020 @ 9:35 am

    DeVos is/was spectacularly qualified for her appointment, hence WHY manchin voted for her. But, some of the Biden nominations are really curious, like:
    Xavier Becerra at HHS
    Denis McDonough at the VA

    Seems very “musical chairs” like…

    Although, the senate shouldn’t have issues with Katherine Tai as top US Trade Official.

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  31. Whembly – the problem is that the campaign and its allies are filing utterly meritless cases (in one case in particular, the lawyer was basically forced to admit in court that the filing was a lie) which get thrown out almost immediately on contact with the legal system, and then insisting that the state courts are corrupt and part of the problem.

    This isn’t just a legal strategy. it’s a political strategy which is actively undermining the legitimacy of our entire political system. whether intentional or not, it’s setting us up for something akin to the replacement of the roman republic with the principate.

    *for the good of the republic*, everyone in political office who is not loudly condeming this cannot be trusted with power and should be run out of office. that will not happen, and in part as a result, i now think it is more likely than not that the republic will fall within my lifetime.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  32. I think of an autogolpe as more what Chavez-Maduro pulled off. They took power from the legislature and courts, over the objections of legislators and judges, mainly because Venezuela had a weak Constitution that communist strongmen could exploit. By contrast, our Congressional Republicans went to their knees in supplication to give Trump more power. Their lives for him. It’s pathetic.
    The problem with Trump and Georgia is our president’s tactical incoherence. On one side of his mouth, Georgia is riddled with massive fraud and rigging, so much so that Trump won, thereby undermining how the state conducts elections. On the other side of his mouth, he’s telling Republicans to vote in this corrupt system.
    Back when Trump was caterwauling about how corrupt mail-in ballots are, he carved out a Florida exception, presumably because he lives there when he’s not domiciling in the White House. In the November election, Trump wouldn’t even do a Georgia fraud carve-out that would help his fellow Republicans, that every state except Georgia was suffused with fraud. But nope, he can’t even give up state in his Big Lie. If the Senators both lose, it’s on Trump.
    I do want one of the Senators to win, for check-and-balance reasons only, but they don’t deserve it. I can’t decide which Senator is least worst, Day Trader Perdue or Senator Barbie.
    As to your final question, Patterico, I’m going with “or ever”. He’ll never acknowledge by word or tweet that he’s a one-term loser. He’ll take that non-concession to his grave, which I hope to one day piss on.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  33. But, engaging the legal process – no matter how frivolous – is a *good thing* as the courts can stamp some sort of “finality” to the orderal.

    I think this is an absolutely ridiculous argument.

    It assumes that the court verdict(s) will be accepted as legitimate by the people who openly proclaim their refusal to accept any adverse result as legitimate.

    If losing 50+ court challenges is already isn’t enough to achieve “finality”, what makes you think one or two more will? It’s a risible suggestion.

    Anyone who is amenable to facts knew weeks ago, beyond any doubt, what the rightful outcome of the election was.

    *If* the challenges themselves were not facially corrupt and fraudulent, and *if* the plaintiffs and their cult were honest, reasonable Americans, then yes, a decision by a theoretically neutral fact-finder could resolve their concerns.

    But that is *far* from the situation we are in.

    Dave (1bb933)

  34. @33 Um… yeah, the court verdict(s) must be accepted as legitimate. Period.

    Anyone arguing otherwise – no matter which side of the controversy – is simply pissing in the wind.

    How the courts rule these cases, and the precedents it sets, *gives* legitimacy to the process.

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  35. #34

    whembly, see Victor’s #15 to see how this will go. The 2020 election will be forever deemed stolen by about 30% of the electorate.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  36. Whembly — that’s true in theory but in practice what’s happening is Trump’s losses in the courts are causing his fanboys to believe that the courts are corrupt and rigged against him, and Trump’s rhetoric (as well as those of high profile Republicans who are supporting him) is reinforcing that response.

    This is the biggest threat to the integrity of the Republic since the Civil War.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  37. How the courts rule these cases, and the precedents it sets, *gives* legitimacy to the process.

    Again, I disagree. This is a completely backwards view of the situation.

    The legitimacy of the process is what gives legitimacy to the process.

    A court ruling (ala Chavista Venezuela) cannot give a fraudulent election legitimacy, nor can it delegitimize an honest election.

    Based on unchallenged and unassailable evidence, any informed and honest person can see for themselves that the election was not decided by fraud.

    Those facts are what give the process legitimacy, regardless of what any court finds.

    Dave (1bb933)

  38. @37: The race to the lawfare bottom started years ago, and not by Trump or his minions. Having turned the law into silly putty, you’re now glum that others can play with it too.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  39. How the courts rule these cases, and the precedents it sets, *gives* legitimacy to the process.

    I don’t see Trumpers accepting the results of the process as legitimate, but instead taking the position that the judges who rule against Trump are corrupt. As long as Trump and his minions keep insisting that the election MUST have been rigged, Trumpers will believe they have truth and justice on their side and that the whole system is rotten.

    A lot of “burn it all down” sentiment helped propel Trump to office. That sentiment is even more amped up now, fueled by the president himself, and leading to insinuations that only a revolutionary uprising by the Trump faithful can save America.

    Anyway, my original point was that Trump and the GOP right now are doing a lot more to try to overturn an election than the Dems did in 2016. The fact that Trump is not succeeding doesn’t nullify the fact that his efforts are unprecedented and dangerous.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  40. Whembly,

    I can’t help but remember Mancin’s t.v. ad which showed him blasting away at some law nailed to a tree, so I find it hard to think that any gun laws he’d agree to would be too onerous.

    But your mileage definitely varies, and I’m not going to try to argue this much anymore. I agree that a 50-50 Senate will probably come up with different policy outcomes than 52-48 Senate and if those policy outcomes are hugely important to you, then overlooking the governmental dysfunction that’s headed our way has to count for less.

    Thinking it over, though, I realize part was how much I dislike the Republican Senators as people. They covered up for Trump’s impeachable acts, they haven’t been profiles of courage during COVID, they are actual current cowards now regarding the election fight (how many ‘privately’ congratulated Biden on winning) and most of them seem to be following Mitch into the view that a relief bill that would actually help would be unbearable. I wouldn’t trust these guys to babysit a child or to light a candle with a box of matches.

    But again, we have policy disagreements, and there’s not much more to be said.

    Victor (4959fb)

  41. > the view that a relief bill that would actually help would be unbearable.

    why help people when instead you can let them suffer and then use that suffering as a cudgel to attack the other side with in the next election?

    i mean, fundamentally, that’s what happened in 2020: the republicans in the senate blocked any meaningful federal aid after June, and this created a situation where the necessary public health measures were too harmful to working people to be sustainable, creating a backlash against the people supporting the public health measures.

    killing people for electoral gain. it’s now the republican way.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  42. killing people for electoral gain. it’s now the republican way.

    I guess it’d be better for everybody if we just let them steal the elections.

    Dave (1bb933)

  43. @35

    #34

    whembly, see Victor’s #15 to see how this will go. The 2020 election will be forever deemed stolen by about 30% of the electorate.

    Appalled (1a17de) — 12/10/2020 @ 10:24 am

    And? They’ll get over it.

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  44. I realize part was how much I dislike the Republican Senators as people. They covered up for Trump’s impeachable acts, they haven’t been profiles of courage during COVID, they are actual current cowards now regarding the election fight (how many ‘privately’ congratulated Biden on winning)…

    Victor, this comment aligns with one of my objections to the “policy not personality!” argument that Trumpers have been making. I might prefer GOP policies on the whole, but when so many R’s are behaving in an overtly dishonorable way, it’s embarrassing to be associated with them. It isn’t that Dems are all so honest and upstanding — far from it. But bad behavior in the GOP is now being openly encouraged from the very top. Maybe R politicians on the whole are not really worse people than D politicians, but Trump and the Trump cult have encouraged them to think of bad behavior as a virtue and integrity as a vice.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  45. killing people for electoral gain. it’s now the republican way.

    You forgot the “letting the terrorists win” part.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  46. What Trump’s people really don’t get is that “winning” this way would destroy the country. Secession, war, assassinations, there is no end to the damage it would do.

    Luckily the Supreme Court is appointed for LIFE. The wisdom of that has never been so apparent.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  47. @46 — It least, it’s wise to make their tenure fixed for some duration so they can’t be fired by a vindictive president for failing to serve his interests first.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  48. But something really rubs me the wrong way about this coup attempt. It’s not normal politics.

    No, it isn’t. So, I have to believe either that tens of millions of Americans have utterly lost their minds, or they are so desperately afraid of Biden/Harris in power that they act as if they had.

    Neither is very satisfactory. What IS clear is that political stress is ready to explode, and Trump is pouring fuel on the flames. I am expecting serious violence however this turns out.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  49. > What Trump’s people really don’t get is that “winning” this way would destroy the country

    I believe they have convinced themselves that Trump losing will destroy the country, so it’s worth risking the destruction this will bring in order to avoid the destruction Biden will bring.

    That belief will remain even once Trump leaves the scene, and it’s part of why I believe the Republic is now doomed.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  50. Re #49
    Those that think Trump lost due to vote fraud feel that if its not ended now, its never going to end. The logical conclusion to that is either a “socialist-leftist” govt. or a tyranny.

    The mindset is that its not about trump per se, but free and fair elections.

    J. W. Morris (ae9309)

  51. #43

    No they won’t. It will be the excuse for obstructionism for the next 4 years. It will be the reason for a GOP refusal to do any kind of deal with a Biden administration.

    Appalled (fbba9a)

  52. From the Pennsylvania brief

    “Since Election Day, State and Federal courts throughout the country have been flooded with frivolous lawsuits aimed at disenfranchising large swaths of voters and undermining the legitimacy of the election. The State of Texas has now added its voice to the cacophony of bogus claims. Texas seeks to invalidate elections in four states for yielding results with which it disagrees. Its request for this Court to exercise its original jurisdiction and then anoint Texas’s preferred candidate for President is legally indefensible and is an afront to principles of constitutional democracy.”

    Texas offers statements about Pennsylvania law and Pennsylvania’s election administration. Befitting of Texas’s distance and unfamiliarity with either, those statements are littered with patently false allegations and conclusions.

    The cascading series of compounding defects in Texas’s filings is only underscored by the surreal alternate reality that those filings attempt to construct. That alternate reality includes an absurd statistical analysis positing that the probability of President- Elect Biden winning the election was “one in a quadrillion.” Texas’s effort to get this Court to pick the next President has no basis in law or fact. The Court should not abide this seditious abuse of the judicial process, and should send a clear and un- mistakable signal that such abuse must never be replicated.

    Seditious abuse of process sounds about right.

    Victor (4959fb)

  53. @52

    #43

    No they won’t. It will be the excuse for obstructionism for the next 4 years. It will be the reason for a GOP refusal to do any kind of deal with a Biden administration.

    Appalled (fbba9a) — 12/10/2020 @ 12:18 pm

    The GOP, you mean Senate Leader McConnell (hopefully)…right?

    We want divided governance, this is what you get.

    I’m not so sure Biden will take the “my way or the highway” mindset, like during the Obama era – I can see Biden and McConnell do some old fashion horse trading on a deal.

    whembly (4c6c6d)

  54. #54

    I think you assume that the sore loser mentality of the GOP base and Trump himself won’t influence how gop people behave. There is pain involved in bucking Trump (like a primary challenge, perpetual leadership challenges) that does not exist wheat everyone stays faithful to the Donald. Maybe that changes, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

    Appalled (fbba9a)

  55. Are Some of the State Attorneys General Supporting the Texas Election Suit Getting Cold Feet?
    ……
    There are a few notable things about today’s filing. First and foremost, it is notable than only six of the states that joined yesterday’s amicus brief (Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Utah) were willing to join today’s motion to intervene and join the Texas Bill of Complaint. This suggests that some of the state AGs who were willing to say that the claims raised by Texas are sufficiently serious to warrant the Court’s attention were not willing to actually endorse the substance of those claims. Perhaps this indicates there is only so far they are willing to go to virtue-signal their support for the Trump tribe. ……

    In seeking to intervene, the states did not submit their own proposed Bill of Complaint. Rather, they seek to join the Bill of Complaint submitted by Texas, as modified by the Bill of Complaint submitted on behalf of Donald Trump. ……
    …….
    …..[T]these six states are endorsing everything in the Texas and Trump Bills of Complaint, including the absurdly stupid statistical claims, the misrepresentation of what occurred in other Supreme Court litigation concerning absentee ballots in Pennsylvania, and the Trump’s briefs uncited claims about Georgia absentee ballot rejection rates that are directly refuted by the data released by the (Republican) Georgia Secretary of State, in addition to the underlying legal theory that states can sue to challenge the lawfulness of election rules and their administration in other states.

    All in all, it is a sad showing from the attorneys general of these six states.

    ……Ohio Attorney General Dave Yost filed a brief in support of neither party that endorses the principle that state legislatures are uniquely authorized to control the manner of selecting presidential electors, but opposing the relief sought by Texas. It is definitely worth a read.

    To be crystal clear about the Ohio brief, it does not support the Texas filing, but it does support the claim that state legislatures set the rules governing the manner in which presidential electors are selected, and this does place some limits on the extent to which state courts or executive branch officials may make unauthorized changes to state election rules in presidential elections. Moreover (and this is a key point), it limits the sort of relief that federal courts can offer as well.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  56. 32. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 12/10/2020 @ 10:11 am

    I do want one of the Senators to win, for check-and-balance reasons only, but they don’t deserve it. I can’t decide which Senator is least worst, Day Trader Perdue or Senator Barbie.

    Kelly Loeffler consistently polls worse , except in Traflger polls, but Trafalger plays around a lot with numbers.

    She does worze, against Warnock by 1% or 2% than Perdue does against Ossoff. I think this must be because Loeffler is perceived as a contentless rubber stamp while Perdue is merceived merely as a lightweight. Even Warnock being more out of the mainstream than Ossoff is not enough for her to outdo Perdue – perhaps because Warnock is so far off the wall, he won’t have any allies in the Senate. And maybe it’s also because he’s far left in different ways than Ossoff. More against a working criminal justice system than for high taxes, government regulation, and action against climate change. His peculiar ideas won’t get any traction.

    Also, the term would be for only two years while it is six years in the other race.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  57. #55 Maybe that changes, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

    I expect that a big chunk of GOP voters, for some time hence, will reflexively blame political losses on a failure to “fight for Trump” with sufficient loyalty and fervor.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  58. @51 This is because they have been told that by irresponsible sore losers. Every challenge has shown that the elections were free and fair, but far-right media and many members of the GOP have continued to push the narrative that it wasn’t.

    Nic (896fdf)

  59. Is Trump going to stop this nonsense on December 14? Or January 5? Or January 6? Or January 20?

    Or ever?

    Sometime after January 6, when the Electoral votes are counted, he’ll run out of things to try, and he won’t escalate to Civil War.

    The last gasp will be a bid to reject the votes cast by certain states, and there’ll be a short debate in Congress. It’s the members of Congress who vote to reject some Electoral votes who won’t be able to live that down, but the Attorneys General should be OK, since they are only asking a court to do something.

    Trump will will pose great problems for the Republican Party, especially for the presidential election of 224.. How the elected Republicans in Congress will split on his claims is unknown. He won’t really let them duck.

    He will try to play Andrew Jackson after the Election of 1824/5, claiming he was cheated out of the presidency. He .+

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  60. Lin Wood, in an interview for the New Yorker, says that “Hundreds of thousands of GA patriots are disgusted w/ the GA Republican Party” and “are not going back to the polls to vote on a machine owned by China & on paper ballots likely falsified on Chinese paper produced in China.”

    So did the Chinese paper switch Trump votes to Biden votes before the ballots went in the machines?
    Anyway, Lin Wood is clearly hoping that R’s will sit out the runoff. Is that because he’s really working for the Dems? Or is he just feeding the Trumper narrative that R’s can’t win unless they all show total servility to Trump?

    Radegunda (20775b)

  61. The Republican Party risks splitting in two, unless the No Trump side can get the vast majority..

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  62. @19

    @16 — How many lawsuits did Dems file in 2016 (or 2004) in an effort to get millions of votes tossed out and have the Dem installed by friendly legislatures?

    Radegunda (20775b) — 12/10/2020 @ 9:34 am

    If you want to pick on the lawsuits, fine. I don’t see it as “detrimental” as you do because its part of the process. You’d have a point if it looks like Trump is ordering the military for a coup or the like. But, engaging the legal process – no matter how frivolous – is a *good thing* as the courts can stamp some sort of “finality” to the orderal.

    whembly,

    You seem to have studiously ignored the part where Trump is doing more than filing lawsuits. He is trying to get states to send slates of electors that support him even though the voters of the states in question selected Biden. That is an attempted coup. As aphrael says, it would destroy the country. If it succeeded, I would support any and all violence necessary to remove Trump. That is a horrific thing to contemplate, and the people cheering for it make my skin crawl.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  63. You’re now expecting the gift of divided government only because you put a Dem in charge. What a ridiculous plan.

    Next time pick a Republican who is moral and who can win.

    This guy was immoral and he lost.

    Double whammy. Y’all need to do better.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  64. As for Republican Senate obstruction it’s already starting. Ted Cruz says there won’t be hearings on nominees until Trump gives up litigating which means of course not until Jan. 20th, if then:

    https://www.axios.com/joe-biden-cabinet-senate-republicans-33812b63-c359-4fa4-bbdd-0fc28abdc3e5.html

    From the article:

    The backdrop: Historically, a majority of a president’s nominees receive hearings before the inauguration. That lets them be confirmed and get to work immediately when the newly minted president formally submits their appointment paperwork on Inauguration Day.

    According to the Center for Presidential Transition, 95% of Cabinet nominees have received pre-inaugural hearings, and 84% of Cabinet secretaries nominated in the lame duck received quick Senate approval — on an average of 2.4 days.

    Speedy confirmations are especially important in the national security arena, where a president relies on his team at the Defense, State and Justice departments, as well as the FBI and CIA, to protect the country.

    A Republican Senate has no particular incentive, and has demonstrated very little interest in the last couple of years, in ensuring the effective operation of government.

    Victor (4959fb)

  65. @63

    @19
    @16 — How many lawsuits did Dems file in 2016 (or 2004) in an effort to get millions of votes tossed out and have the Dem installed by friendly legislatures?
    Radegunda (20775b) — 12/10/2020 @ 9:34 am

    If you want to pick on the lawsuits, fine. I don’t see it as “detrimental” as you do because its part of the process. You’d have a point if it looks like Trump is ordering the military for a coup or the like. But, engaging the legal process – no matter how frivolous – is a *good thing* as the courts can stamp some sort of “finality” to the orderal.

    whembly,

    You seem to have studiously ignored the part where Trump is doing more than filing lawsuits. He is trying to get states to send slates of electors that support him even though the voters of the states in question selected Biden. That is an attempted coup. As aphrael says, it would destroy the country. If it succeeded, I would support any and all violence necessary to remove Trump. That is a horrific thing to contemplate, and the people cheering for it make my skin crawl.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 12/10/2020 @ 12:55 pm

    Pat, I’m ignoring that because I don’t think he has a chance in hell in getting the states to send different slates of electors.

    I’m just not as animated about it as you guys.

    Just like none of the lawsuits have any real merits, so if the courts do their job it’s all over for the current President.

    whembly (fbaaf7)

  66. Radegunda, at 61:

    on the one hand, I can’t stop chortling at the possibility that nonsense claims of election fraud will result in enough people staying home that Warnock and Ossoff win. That’s a massive own goal on the part of the Republican party.

    on the other hand, people staying home because they believe the machines are rigged and the *ballot paper* is rigged is a terrible sign for our future.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  67. a lot of the purpose of these lawsuits is to convince people he has a serious case.

    It’s all actually a kind of ad hominem argument.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  68. @66 — Even if the institutions continue to hold the line, it’s still horrifying that the nation’s chief executive keeps trying to break through it, and that a substantial part of the electorate is passionately supporting him in the effort. It’s disturbing that so many people see the “OVERTURN!” strategy as the only way to save the Republic, and will remain ever loyal to a president (or ex-president) who promotes it.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  69. @69 (btw, nice!)
    I can’t really dispute that and it is indeed a “black mark” or whatever you want to call it. History won’t look too kindly on Trump in this regard. Moreso, imo, than the impeachment ordeal.

    But, we lived through 4 years of #TheResistance, “Not muh President!”, unheard of lawfare tactics against the Trump administration and we survived.

    Just as we’ll survive Trump and his supporters temper tantrum over losing this election.

    Just as we’ll survive the Biden administration in the next 4 years.

    We’re much more resilient than you and others give credit.

    I mean, we’re a country who literally had concentration camps in WWII and the Civil Rights era is still “living memory”.

    whembly (fbaaf7)

  70. “But, we lived through 4 years of #TheResistance, “Not muh President!”, unheard of lawfare tactics against the Trump administration and we survived.”

    We lived through 8 years of “Kenyan Muslim” spearheaded by our current President, so let’s not pretend that the blame falls on one party.

    Davethulhu (431e91)

  71. Pat, I’m ignoring that because I don’t think he has a chance in hell in getting the states to send different slates of electors.

    I’m just not as animated about it as you guys.

    Just like none of the lawsuits have any real merits, so if the courts do their job it’s all over for the current President.

    If some overweight middle aged schlub starts hanging out in clubs and asks every attractive woman there to sleep with him, his wife should still be really mad and questioning why she’s sticking around. The fact it won’t work doesn’t take away from the fact the schlub would gladly go through with it if it somehow did work.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  72. In fact, I’d argue that it laid the groundwork for the current alternate reality majority of the Republican party.

    Davethulhu (431e91)

  73. Jon Adler has a good summary of the cases filed by the four states that TX is suing. The GA case is especially good.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  74. This guy was immoral and he lost.

    Moral, schmoral. This is a politician we’re talking about.

    Trump’s problem is that he’s incompetent, ignorant and willful (a dire national security issue) and racist, ineffective (and a fraud) at serving those that are relying on him for change.

    The blue collar workers who found their lives under cut by both parties would be better off seeking help from Biden than Trump, as Trump was both ineffective and a sack-of-sh1t when it came to serving their interests. Biden might.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  75. I can’t decide which Senator is least worst, Day Trader Perdue or Senator Barbie.

    Barbie. Her term would only be 2 years.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  76. The Republican Party risks splitting in two, unless the No Trump side can get the vast majority..

    Then it should, the Democrats win again, and one of the two halves dies soon thereafter.

    Look at what happened the last time a majority party (and the GOP was the majority party in 2016) faced such internal division. In 1824, they staved off Andy Jackson, but in 1828 he won the thing outright and the ruling Democrat-Republican party split. The Whigs only had anti-Jackson to hold them together and when Jackson passed from the scene so did the Whigs (and they spit themselves, over slavery).

    Trump destroyed the post-1980 alignment and both parties need to adapt. It may take a serious attempt at a new center-right (or center-lib) party before the GOP comes to its senses.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  77. We lived through 8 years of “Kenyan Muslim”

    Can’t speak about the Muslim thing, but Obama has no one else to blame about the Kenyan thing, using that false image to advance in his early years.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. @78 I don’t think you can blame someone for visiting family in a foreign country and having that give rise to a conspiracy theory. There was all kinds of proof that Obama was born in the US that the conspiracy theorists (and opportunists) chose to overlook in order to run with the idea that Obama should be removed from the presidency.

    Nic (896fdf)

  79. Patterico, NK, Whembly, and other lawyers here, I have a question.
    I spent the day doing motorsports with a good friend and devoted Trump supporter. He’s fully convinced of the following things; all the discussion about fraud has to mean something happened, the fact that many others believe something happened is itself strong evidence, Trump is a great president, and the supreme court might lay this all out for us.
    Is there any chance that the SC will take the case and lay out a clear conclusion based on the facts currently on record? Or is that not a likely, or possible outcome.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  80. This guy was immoral and he lost.

    Moral, schmoral. This is a politician we’re talking about.

    Trump’s problem is that he’s incompetent, ignorant and willful (a dire national security issue) and racist, ineffective (and a fraud) at serving those that are relying on him for change.

    The blue collar workers who found their lives under cut by both parties would be better off seeking help from Biden than Trump, as Trump was both ineffective and a sack-of-sh1t when it came to serving their interests. Biden might.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/10/2020 @ 2:29 pm

    At this point a difference in degree is a difference in kind.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  81. I don’t think you can blame someone for visiting family in a foreign country and having that give rise to a conspiracy theory.

    He published a book that blurbed he’d been born in Kenya. He may have used that “fact” in other places early on (circa 1980s). But I really don’t want to get into this as I am NOT saying he was born there, but that his (at minimum) inattention to what was said about him put some of the blame at his feet.

    https://reason.com/2012/05/18/about-the-book-agency-entry-saying-obama/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. At this point a difference in degree is a difference in kind.

    But a difference in kind is never a difference in degree.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. Good point, Kevin. Senator Barbie it is.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  84. We’re much more resilient than you and others give credit.

    I think the country can survive a Biden administration, so I give it more credit for resiliency than the fanatical Trumpers do. I also think it would have survived a Hillary Clinton administration, unlike those who pushed the Flight 93 Election theme.
    OTOH, I think that a sitting president using his power to try to deny the office to a duly elected successor, and being actively supported in that effort by prominent members of his party, is an extraordinary attack on the foundations of the democratic republic. That it’s being done in the name of defending the Constitution is shameful.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  85. @82 The reason article has a quote from the editor where she said she got it wrong and that there wasn’t any info from Obama that claimed he was born in Kenya. And not that he didn’t slide a few things by re his earlier life, but I don’t think the Kenyan conspiracy is on him.

    @85 Most of us did reasonably well under Clinton and even Obama, so I’m not worried about Biden, who seems less adventurous than either of the other two.

    Nic (896fdf)

  86. @17. Mona Charen is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  87. Next time pick a Republican who is moral and who can win.

    The tell; morality is a transient.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  88. “I think the country can survive a Biden administration…”

    “No miracle is coming.” – Plagiarist Joe Biden 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  89. Time123: it’s *extremely* unlikely. Texas lawsuit is a rehash of a bunch of complaints which have already been rejected by state courts, Texas’ standing is questionable at best, and the remedy they are asking for is revolutionary and unprecedente.

    My money is on a 7-2 rejection of the request for leave to file a complaint.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  90. Memo to Mona:

    Put your lifebelt on.

    “She can’t sink. She’s unsinkable!” – Captain E.J. Smith [Laurence Naismith] ‘A Night To Remember’ 1958

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  91. The thing that offended me the most about the Kenya-birth nonsense is that John McCain was born in the Canal Zone at a time when being born in the Canal Zone to American parents *did not automatically confer citizenship*. Congress fixed this several years after he was born and attempted to apply it retroactively.

    There’s a good strong technical argument that McCain was technically not a natural born citizen, as a result of this. I think it’s a technicality that it was reasonable to overlook, in part because of Congress’s after-the-fact conferral of citizenship, but it was a real issue that was never seriously litigated and which was *ignored* by the obama birther activists.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  92. Eh? When was there ever a time when being born to American parents anywhere in the world did not confer American citizenship?

    nk (1d9030)

  93. How long would it take to count the ballots of the entire schiff hole world open border election?

    mg (15c28b)

  94. The Canal Zone was wierd because it was an unorganized territory and was therefore neither considered part of the US nor fully outside of the US.

    The law prior to 1937 did not automatically grant citizenship to children born to American citizens in such circumstances. There were hoops you had to jump through (just like, now, if an American citizen man knocks up a foreign woman, there are hoops to go through to get the child recognized).

    Congress changed the law in 1937. McCain was born in 1936.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  95. @87 – Mona Charen is correct about the extent to which the GOP has sunk to Trump’s level.

    @88 — “morality is a transient.” — So that’s why Trumpers are so indifferent to gross dishonesty, selfishness, and abuse of power in the presidency. But if morality is transient, why do so many Trumpers insist that we must indulge Trump’s moral turpitude in the interest of opposing abortion and defending “Christian values”? Why are they so outraged by “baby-killers” and transgender activists on the Dem side?

    Radegunda (20775b)

  96. “Morality is transient”. Heh! A slogan for motels and traveling salesmen?

    nk (1d9030)

  97. You know … because the first cater to “transients” and the second are?

    nk (1d9030)

  98. @96.

    1. Jonah and Mona are irrelevant.

    2. ‘So that’s why Trumpers are so indifferent to gross dishonesty, selfishness, and abuse of power in the presidency.

    No. That’s why we don’t hang horse thieves in 2020.

    Sing it, Cole!:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd1w5tn040g

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  99. @97. No. Broadway! It’s a very ‘tony’ place, you know. 😉

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3b5XRd15KM

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  100. @75. This guy was immoral and he lost.

    Thing is, he was when he won in the first place.

    It’s essentially an empty metric which masks the true mindset of those who wear it in pursuit of power. Exhibit A: ‘the Moral Majority.’

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  101. @81. You could argue that the most “moral” president of the past 75 years was– James Earl Carter, Jr.

    That went well. 😉

    And he still confessed [to Playboy no less] how he ‘lusted in his heart.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  102. elements (case, binding).

    Annotationsuwk (1753cf)

  103. text carrier and protective

    Fendersqy (c83fd7)

  104. 86. Nic (896fdf) — 12/10/2020 @ 4:10 pm

    @82 The reason article has a quote from the editor where she said she got it wrong and that there wasn’t any info from Obama that claimed he was born in Kenya.

    Not editor and not book blurb. Literary agent. And web site catalog of authors she represented (this was 1991 and Barack Obama was supposed to write a different book.)

    She made his father into a one-time Finance Minister of Kenya, too. She wasn’t the boss at the time, but became the boss of the literary agency later.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  105. I’ve heard that the Covid vaccine contains a microchip that triggers Dominion voting machines to switch Republican votes to Democrat, too.

    nk (1d9030)

  106. Sorry, wrong thread.

    nk (1d9030)

  107. It wasn’t as good a choice as me winning it in 2006, but the TIME 2020 Person of the Year turned out to be a 78-year old basement dweller and his cohort.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  108. OT: Well the Chinese threat seems to be receding:

    Xi Jinping, long distrustful of the private sector, is moving assertively to bring it to heel.

    China’s most powerful leader in a generation wants even greater state control in the world’s second-largest economy, with private firms of all sizes expected to fall in line. The government is installing more Communist Party officials inside private firms, starving some of credit and demanding executives tailor their businesses to achieve state goals.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-xi-clampdown-private-sector-communist-party-11607612531

    In some cases, it is taking charge entirely of companies it regards as undisciplined, absorbing them into state-owned enterprises….

    The message isn’t lost on entrepreneurs, who are reorienting their businesses to appease the state or giving up on private enterprise altogether.

    This, the censored internet, the strangling of Hong Kong and increased state control in general will leave the country unable to respond to anything new from outside. A “water empire.” And eventually something new will arrive.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  109. a 78-year old basement dweller and his cohort.

    I don’t think “cohort” means what you think it means. Perhaps “consort”?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  110. I’ve heard that the Covid vaccine

    It hacks your mind into thinking that Covid is a real threat, even before you get it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  111. Regarding the Trumpist logic about the GA senate elections: If one is supposed to vote against these Trumpbots because GA didn’t recount the votes a fourth time, does it mean that one should vote for them, to defend Georgia’s honor against Trump’s assault.

    One thing is sure, though, win or lose Trump will claim HE won. He’s stupid like that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  112. DJT won’t ever stop it even past Jan 20. He’s managed to convince millions that he was a victim of electoral fraud, which I think was his plan all along if he lost. Deep down, he knows that his attempt at electoral larceny is a futile cause, but knows that Trump hyperfans will soak it all up. In that manner, he keeps himself relevant to his supporters, garnering sympathy from them all the way to 2024. He will either run again, or remain relevant enough to be some sort of a GOP kingmaker.

    HCI (92ea66)

  113. Joe Biden and Kamala Harris named Time’s Person of the Year – source, CBS NEWS

    A repeatedly caught, historied and known plagiarist who, if caught committing same as a staff reporter for TIME magazine would be fired on the spot and their career curtailed– and a failed presidential primary candidate who had to quit her campaign due to dwindling support honored by a dying medium.

    Journalism is dead.

    But fortunately, like Mona and Jonah, TIME magazine in the 21st century is irrelevant.

    “Okay man, it was a miracle, can we leave now?” – Vincent Vega [John Travolta] ‘Pulp Fiction’ 1994

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  114. Also, as much as I’m disgusted with Loeffler and Purdue for kowtowing to the Orange Man, I still want them to win, if only for a GOP Senate checking the Biden administration. If their runoff races didn’t affect control of the Senate, I wouldn’t be supporting them.

    HCI (92ea66)

  115. @115 This. We are in the unfortunate position of having to use one kind of evil to fight a different kind of evil.

    norcal (670733)

  116. The fact that Biden and Harris disagree with you does not make them evil.

    Dave (1bb933)

  117. 106 House Republicans have signed on to the disgraceful Texas lawsuit.

    “Despicable” is the best word I can think of to describe them, but it’s entirely inadequate to express my revulsion.

    Dave (1bb933)

  118. One interesting suggestion on Twitter: House Democrats should refuse to seat the Republicans who endorsed sedition.

    Dave (1bb933)

  119. So no one wants to discuss the Georgia fraud hearings?
    You should because several nice gems are coming out of it. First if anyone can watch this and not have doubts about our election, I’ll buy them a one-way ticket to Cuba so they can live out their days in paradise. So why would Election Supervisor Misty Martin record a video like this? Probably because she was having a problem certifying her results. I understand that some will only see corruption or incompetence on her part, and maybe either are possible, but what reasonable person thinks that any voting system should work this way? Also if you read the manual for the Dominion system they layout that this behavior is absolutely possible.
    Lastly, the Georgia Secretary of State(SOS) is a liar. I know this because Rep Turner yesterday outlines how the SOS has lied to the legislature and the media. He outlines how TWICE the SOS told the GA legislature that after poll watchers and the media left State Farm Arena the SOS office observed the counting. Rep Turner points out that the infamous video of “suitcases” coming from under the table is suspect not because of that but because there is no SOS personal in the video! He goes on to give more examples, but you can watch that for yourself.
    My link is the end of the hearing yesterday, I highly encourage everyone to watch all 8 hours of it. If you can’t do that at least watch from the beginning and get J. Christian Adams take on the election. It was very insightful.
    One thing is for certian: November 3rd is night the lights went out in Georgia!

    ah-non-ee-mouse (690acb)

  120. Dave,

    For at least those Republicans whose districts are in the defendant four States (I think there were at least 14? congresspeople from Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Wisconsin who signed on) the point should be made that they shouldn’t be seated if they believe their own election was marred by fraud and corruption.

    Victor (4959fb)

  121. Any musical Mozart or our modern day I would be grateful if you could record a parody for me. The first line that I came up with: “The devil went down to Georgia, He was looking for an election to steal.” And remember that in true bipartisanship ALL sides should be offended and insulted.

    ah-non-ee-mouse (690acb)

  122. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 12/10/2020 @ 10:24 pm

    Ah, the sellabration of mediocrity continues apace. Shame is affective only insofar as it is felt.

    felipe (630e0b)

  123. I looked at comments 101 and 114 in close proximity. Good thing there is still a section 230 because I otherwise would be suing the host for the effects of such violent whiplash.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  124. This, the censored internet, the strangling of Hong Kong and increased state control in general will leave the country unable to respond to anything new from outside. A “water empire.” And eventually something new will arrive.
    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/10/2020 @ 10:14 pm

    The extermination of the Uighurs. Forced labor camps. Clamping down on what little civil rights the Chinese people had.

    Now, we know their spies are sleeping their way across the US political system (yet strangely the Democratic Congressman who did is not being removed from his seat on the House Intelligence Committee). If you don’t know who Swalwell is, he’s a Democrat from CA who spent years saying Trump was colluding with Russian intelligence. Turns out, it was Swalwell colluding with a Chinese spy.

    We tried to pass a Forced Labor bill, but that got killed by woke companies like Nike and Coke, and Democrats. Turns out, they aren’t woke when it comes to ensuring the slaves that make their goods stay nice and cheap.

    I don’t see the Democrats doing anything against China. China has them by the short hairs, thanks to years of grooming and colluding.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  125. ah-non-ee-mouse @ 122. How about

    It’s a rainy night in Georgia,
    Oh, it’s a rainy night in Georgia
    Feels like a golden shower
    Feels like a golden shower
    In a Moscow hotel room

    nk (1d9030)

  126. Now, we know their spies are sleeping their way across the US political system (yet strangely the Democratic Congressman who did is not being removed from his seat on the House Intelligence Committee). If you don’t know who Swalwell is, he’s a Democrat from CA who spent years saying Trump was colluding with Russian intelligence. Turns out, it was Swalwell colluding with a Chinese spy.

    This is almost a lie.

    What happened: Amid a widening counterintelligence probe, federal investigators became so alarmed by Fang’s behavior and activities that around 2015 they alerted Swalwell to their concerns — giving him what is known as a defensive briefing.

    Swalwell immediately cut off all ties to Fang, according to a current U.S. intelligence official, and he has not been accused of any wrongdoing.

    https://www.axios.com/china-spy-california-politicians-9d2dfb99-f839-4e00-8bd8-59dec0daf589.html

    Time123 (80b471)

  127. Ho-hum, the usual justifications are out in force today:

    “On one hand, I want the GOP to hold the Senate — but if it doesn’t, because these two people of low character can’t pull it off, then oh well.”

    ‘I have no skin in this game, I have no investment in this company, please take my opinions seriously regardless’.

    “jeopardizing the chances that the Republicans will control the Senate.”

    The only people “jeopardizing the GOP control of the Senate” are the Republicans not choosing to rally around the candidate that allowed them to gain seats in the House.

    “Feels like a golden shower
    In a Moscow hotel room”

    the fact that you and the media are still repeating this DEBOOOOOOONKED lie is alone far more than enough tactical and strategic justification to claim Democrat Fraud Forevermore, real or imagined.

    “This lawsuit is a patently meritless regurgitation of already-rejected claims”

    Four years of Russia lies justifies four years of voter fraud investigation. Fair is fair. You never were operating on a level of morality in any case.

    “and is really nothing more than a pretext for a dictatorial grab of power”

    So says the promulgator of Covid hysteria and its consequences way past its sell-by date.

    “Is Trump going to stop this nonsense”

    Lawyers never let shame or morality stop them from pushing terrible ideas, neither should we.

    Fairy Ballot (c5c2bb)

  128. HP, I was in a hurry and that was really rudely stated. I’m sorry about that. If I could edit I would change the first line to “Saying he colluded with the Spy while on the IC isn’t accurate.”

    Time123 (66d88c)

  129. @128, Can you help me understand when you started caring more about Trump the American Democracy? I’d like to understand what it was that turned you against your country.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  130. @120, those claims are incredible. Trump’s lawyers should take them to court where they can be specified challenged and ruled on by a neutral party. The fact that it hasn’t happened indicates they’re lies, exaggerations, and deceptive accountings.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  131. “Can you help me understand when you started caring more about Trump the American Democracy?”

    All those who care about democracy and America will support America’s most democratically popular candidate, so powerful he can actually persuade people to follow his ideas. All those who care only about manipulating procedural outcomes behind the scenes, giving dumb-ass non-responses to questions you don’t want to hear, and declaring the pronouncements of mandarins and bureaucrats as ‘authoritative’ minus any minimally adversarial analysis are free to support the Democrats and whatever cadavers and the slags who love them they want.

    “I’d like to understand what it was that turned you against your country.”

    It was probably its self-appointed representatives pretending that ‘have you stopped beating your wife’ tier questions are a legitimate form of discourse, honestly.

    Fairy Ballot (3b1288)

  132. @132,

    All those who care about democracy and America will support America’s most democratically popular candidate, so powerful he can actually persuade people to follow his ideas.

    We don’t elect president by popular vote. We use the EC for good reasons. If you care, you can check out the constitution and federalist papers to understand why. It’s not worth much, but Trump lost the popular vote twice.

    All those who care only about manipulating procedural outcomes behind the scenes, giving dumb-ass non-responses to questions you don’t want to hear, and declaring the pronouncements of mandarins and bureaucrats as ‘authoritative’ minus any minimally adversarial analysis are free to support the Democrats and whatever cadavers and the slags who love them they want.

    You’re not a big fan of women are you?

    It was probably its self-appointed representatives pretending that ‘have you stopped beating your wife’ tier questions are a legitimate form of discourse, honestly.

    You talk like someone that hates my country. So I assume you do. It’s possible you’re just bad at expressing yourself in writing.

    Time123 (80b471)

  133. @127: giving him what is known as a defensive briefing.</em

    Right. The sort of defensive briefing that was denied Trump. Why was that again?

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  134. Duh, let me try again, Time123:

    @127: giving him what is known as a defensive briefing.

    Right. The sort of defensive briefing that was denied Trump. Why was that again?

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  135. @136 this is true but NBC got the date wrong (d’oh!). Trump’s briefing was in August. There’s a question about whether the briefing was too generic and should have been more specific. My own opinion is that it is impossible for Russia not to have come up. But we don’t know for sure. Anyway WaPo gives a good rundown here.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/20/did-fbi-warn-trump-campaign-about-russia/

    JRH (52aed3)

  136. Ha, ha, ha! Like Trump needed to be told he was a Russian stooge. All the FBI did was give away that they knew about it. But by then Manafort had bought the nomination for him, and he could go on the down low into deep cover.

    nk (1d9030)

  137. @136: That briefing given to Trump was standard and given to both campaigns. Comey snd Clapper couldn’t even say for certain whether Russia came up, but that was likely. A defensive briefing of the kind Swallwell received, regarding specific threats and alleged activity, didn’t happen.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  138. Stop lying.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  139. geez mr nk you make it sound like president donald went on teevee and on twitter and directly asked mr vladimir to help him

    or that his son and mr jared and mr manafort set up a meeting with russian spies or something

    Dave (1bb933)

  140. If Trump had been told that there were Russians trying to infiltrate his campaign, he would have asked for their phone numbers.

    Dave (1bb933)

  141. Swalwell immediately cut off all ties to Fang, according to a current U.S. intelligence official, and he has not been accused of any wrongdoing.

    https://www.axios.com/china-spy-california-politicians-9d2dfb99-f839-4e00-8bd8-59dec0daf589.html
    Time123 (80b471) — 12/11/2020 @ 6:03 am

    What are the chances he was colluding with a foreign spy before the FBI told him to stop? 100%

    I mean, the FBI would not have told him to stop colluding with a foreign spy unless he was, you know, colluding with a foreign spy.

    But I’m sure China doesn’t have any kompramat on a married US politician sleeping with a Chinese spy.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  142. @140: I see your Pavlovian response has kicked in.

    From the link JRH provided:

    James R. Clapper Jr., who was the director of national intelligence in 2016, told The Fact Checker: “It’s sort of my impression that they did brief both campaigns, at least generically, on potential cyber threats. I can’t testify chapter and verse, month, day and year, when they did this. My impression is they did this with both campaigns.”

    Asked whether Russia came up at the briefing, Clapper said: “I don’t know because I wasn’t present during the briefing. I wasn’t personally involved.”

    Then-Rep. Trey Gowdy (R-S.C.) asked Comey about this issue in December. “Do you not recall contemplating whether or not to give the candidate a defensive briefing on individuals that you were at least investigating, not criminally but from a counterintelligence standpoint, for their potential connections with a hostile foreign power?” Comey said: “No. I don’t remember considering that, and I wouldn’t have considered it at the time.”

    Stop being intellectually dishonest and/or lazy.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  143. Natalia Veselnitskaya (I can’t get over that I can spell her name) was more than a spy. She was an operator. An enforcer. A torpedo. A bagman. She was one of Putin’s gang outed by Magnitsky for their crimes in Russia, leading to Magnitsky’s imprisonment, torture, and murder.

    nk (1d9030)

  144. What are the chances he was colluding with a foreign spy before the FBI told him to stop? 100%

    You apparently don’t understand what the word “collude” means.

    Dave (1bb933)

  145. Now, we know their spies are sleeping their way across the US political system (yet strangely the Democratic Congressman who did is not being removed from his seat on the House Intelligence Committee). If you don’t know who Swalwell is, he’s a Democrat from CA who spent years saying Trump was colluding with Russian intelligence. Turns out, it was Swalwell colluding with a Chinese spy.

    If you didn’t mean to imply they were happening at the same time I apologize for misreading you. But I read your comment to say that he was colluding with a Chinese spy while he was criticizing Trump’s behavior towards Russia which isn’t help up by the timeline. Additionally, you don’t make it clear that as soon as he was told that he was being targeted he cut off contact. The Axios article doesn’t make it clear that he was sleeping with her. But it does show that she was sleeping with several Midwestern mayors.

    Honest question; what do you feel, base on the known facts, that he did wrong?

    Time123 (80b471)

  146. Dave, I’m interesting in HP’s thoughts on this, and would like to have a honest conversation with him. That will be harder if you’re also being snarky in the same line of discussion.

    Time123 (80b471)

  147. Hit submit too soon; Wanted to add. I value your input and participation but wanted to point out that it’s easy to get sideways on these things in the pursuit of a 1 liner.

    Time123 (80b471)

  148. I wonder how many more classified counter-intelligence operations the corrupt criminal orange traitor will reveal in his petulant pique in retaliation for being given his walking papers.

    nk (1d9030)

  149. Words mean things. Hoi Polloi chose to use a loaded and inaccurate one.

    According to the OED, collude means:

    To act in secret concert with, chiefly in order to trick or baffle some third person or party; to play into one another’s hands; to conspire, plot, connive; to play false; to act in play merely.

    There is no credible basis for accusing Swalwell of that.

    When someone argues dishonestly, I will point it out. Sorry.

    Dave (1bb933)

  150. @144, I’ll try once again to take you seriously.

    What’s your point? Are you saying Trump was denied the opportunity to change what he was doing? Because I don’t see that

    Trump was warned in mid-late 2016 about what Russia was suspected of doing at that time. He took no actions to push back on what they were doing. He took no actions to limit his exposure to people with ties to Russia (manafort/Flynn) Roger Stone continued to try and work with WikiLeaks who was the outlet for the information Russia stole.

    Basically, He was told of the concerns and he didn’t care because what Russia was doing was beneficial for him.

    Are you saying that he didn’t know what was going on? Because that doesn’t appear to be the case?

    If you have a point I’m not seeing it and it just looks like your normal expression of hurt feelings about Russia.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  151. Swallwell sits on the House Intelligence Committee for chrissakes.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  152. Dave, As I said, I like your participation and I think your comment at 151 is a great point, and it’s made in a way that doesn’t imply stupidity.

    Time123 (66d88c)

  153. Swallwell sits on the House Intelligence Committee for chrissakes.

    And the FBI investigation that the corrupt criminal orange traitor just told all our foreign enemies about ended in 2015. Five years ago. That should tell you something.

    nk (1d9030)

  154. Swalwell joined the House Intelligence Committee in January 2015.

    The FBI warned him in 2015 (the article doesn’t say exactly when) and he immediately cut all ties to Fang.

    Fang left the country suddenly in mid-2015, and hasn’t been seen or heard from since.

    Swalwell represents a Bay Area district, and Fang was president of the Asian Pacific Islander American Public Affairs at a local college, a non-profit organization for Asian-Americans that would be entirely appropriate for Swalwell (or anyone else) to have contact with.

    Fang also raised money for Tulsi Gabbard.

    Dave (1bb933)

  155. Trump was warned in mid-late 2016 about what Russia was suspected of doing at that time.

    Link? One that shows he was given a briefing different from what Clinton was given?

    I’m sure every member of the House Intelligence Committee is given a briefing on intelligence threats. So, Swallwell had already been warned. That seems to be your logic.

    But, if you can’t respond without you usual puerile attacks, please don’t bother.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  156. Swalwell joined the House Intelligence Committee in January 2015.

    When it was chaired/majority Republican. As it continued to be until January 3, 2019. The corrupt criminal orange traitor revealed an FBI investigation for no other reason than to gratuitously smear Swalwell. Gitmo the fart burglar!

    nk (1d9030)

  157. Why did Trump need a briefing?

    The Russians were contacting his half-wit son directly to pledge their support.

    His son-in-law and campaign manager blocked out time on their calendars for a meeting with Russian intelligence operators.

    Dave (1bb933)

  158. Please do not flatter yourself that it is you that we are responding to, beer ‘n pretzels. We are countering your puerile lies for the benefit of other readers of this thread.

    nk (1d9030)

  159. nk, you forgot the /happyfeet tag

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  160. nk, you forgot the /happyfeet tag

    I lent it to Ted Cruz in case he is picked to argue the Paxton Pardon Petition before the Supreme Court.

    nk (1d9030)

  161. Trump was warned in mid-late 2016 about what Russia was suspected of doing at that time.

    Link? One that shows he was given a briefing different from what Clinton was given?

    I’m sure every member of the House Intelligence Committee is given a briefing on intelligence threats. So, Swallwell had already been warned. That seems to be your logic.

    But, if you can’t respond without you usual puerile attacks, please don’t bother.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 12/11/2020 @ 8:16 am

    What is your point?

    Time123 (66d88c)

  162. “Stop being intellectually dishonest and/or lazy.”

    Now this is ironic.

    Davethulhu (431e91)

  163. I should add, I’m not trying to say that your comment is pointless, I just can’t tell what point, out of many possible you’re driving at.

    Time123 (80b471)

  164. According to CNN, the criminal traitor in Texas has filed his response to the four states whose voters they want to disenfranchise, which (again according to CNN) means a ruling could now come at any time.

    Dave (1bb933)

  165. Now this is ironic.

    I think we caught our last glimpse of “irony” in the rear-view mirror several months ago…

    Dave (1bb933)

  166. Did somebody say “ironic”?

    nk (1d9030)

  167. First if anyone can watch this and not have doubts about our election, I’ll buy them a one-way ticket to Cuba so they can live out their days in paradise.

    The GA SecState office just announced that they’re investigating how Coffee County handled ballots and counting. They’re the only county out of 67 that didn’t finish on December 2nd, so their conduct raised competency issues. Ms. Martin’s YouTube shows how she could potentially commit electoral fraud, but it doesn’t prove actual fraud, and the supervisor would have to breach internal controls such as her being alone in a locked room to “adjudicate” votes.
    Bottom line, the state conducted a manual recount and audit/canvas, and the 50 unreconciled votes they found in Coffee County were the result of said process, and most likely because of human error, not Dominion.
    I think it’s fair to have doubts about the competency of election officials, and it’s also fair that to say that there’s an unquantifiable number of fraudulent or illegal votes. What’s not fair to say is that this election was rigged or that there was any serious level of fraud because there’s no serious evidence of such a thing.
    Facts matter, mouse. If you’re going to make a Big Allegation, then it’s on you to step forward with Big Evidence. So far, you’ve failed miserably where it counts, in courts of law.

    Paul Montagu (1d8ad3)

  168. FBI issues subpoena for Texas AG records after whistleblower allegations: report
    ……..
    The subpoena comes amid an ongoing investigation after members of Paxton’s staff raised red flags about actions Paxton allegedly took to benefit Nate Paul, an Austin investor and wealthy donor.

    A group of current and former Paxton aides sent a letter to the state’s office of human resources on Oct. 1, claiming to have sent information to federal law enforcement. They reported that the state official had hired an outside lawyer to investigate Paul’s assertion that the FBI improperly raided his home and offices last year.

    The complaint also alleges that Paul employed a woman with whom Paxton had an affair and that Paxton had recommended for a job, according to the Austin American-Statesman.
    ……..
    All of the whistleblowers who reported Paxton to authorities have resigned, were fired, or were put on leave. Four of them filed a lawsuit last month claiming they were the subjects of retaliation.
    ………
    The Kraken turns.

    Rip Murdock (5b4ca4)

  169. There is no credible basis for accusing Swalwell of that.

    When someone argues dishonestly, I will point it out. Sorry.
    Dave (1bb933) — 12/11/2020 @ 7:52 am

    You spend a lot of time arguing and defending a married politician who gratefully received money and help from a foreign national, and from what we can discern, slept with her as well. Did he know she was a spy? I’m sure she didn’t outright tell him. But he was probably smart enough to know. But hey, he’s getting sex and money and could deny plausibly, so game on.

    Glad such a stupid dupe is on the Intelligence Committee!

    So tell us how these Democrats are going to stand up to China.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  170. 108. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 12/10/2020 @ 8:55 pm

    the TIME 2020 Person of the Year turned out to be a 78-year old basement dweller and his cohort.

    TIME Magazine had a front cover that said that 2020 was the worst year ever.

    What about 1942?

    Or, if you mean only in the United States, 1863 or 1864?

    TIME magazine is no longer published every week. In four months they skip a week (combine dates in issues); in 7 months they skip two weeks; and in September they skip three weeks.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  171. Glad such a stupid dupe is on the Intelligence Committee!

    He was there during two Republican Houses. After Fang had been defanged in 2015. Republican committee chairman, Republican majority. Are they all stupid dupes?

    nk (1d9030)

  172. All those who care about democracy and America will support America’s most democratically popular candidate, so powerful he can actually persuade people to follow his ideas.

    Noted, your support for Biden, Fairy, but your comments about Democrats seem awfully contradictory.

    Paul Montagu (5a2167)

  173. You spend a lot of time arguing and defending a married politician who gratefully received money and help from a foreign national, and from what we can discern, slept with her as well. Did he know she was a spy? I’m sure she didn’t outright tell him. But he was probably smart enough to know. But hey, he’s getting sex and money and could deny plausibly, so game on.

    Every word of this is a lie.

    Dave (1bb933)

  174. Sammy Finkelman (26a080) — 12/11/2020 @ 9:28 am

    If you’re trying to say that TIME has diminished, then we’re not disagreeing, and I’m not giving back my 2006 award.

    Paul Montagu (5a2167)

  175. “Noted, your support for Biden, Fairy, but your comments about Democrats seem awfully contradictory.”

    Whether a candidate’s lackies can fill out lots of pieces of paper, jam the same ones repeatedly through voting machines, and keep out anybody who asks questions has no bearing on their popularity or persuasiveness. The means for testing such support decisively is rarely called upon, but sometimes people just insist on corrupting the process by which it’s done by proxy. Such is life, such is history.

    “You’re not a big fan of women are you?”

    Women who sleep their way to the top of their field are typically not well thought of by neutral observers, and usually end up with shorter, more colloquial terms to describe their lifestyle. New ones keep coming up as old ones become declaimed, of course!

    “Bottom line, the state conducted a manual recount and audit/canvas”

    The state(well, Raffensperger specifically) repeatedly fired or pressured the resignation of anyone who questioned the results or came up with different results during the recount, and their ‘audit/canvas’ repeatedly and specifically avoided answering any questions they didn’t want asked (like “WHERE IS THE SIGNATURE VERIFICATION???”)

    What does that fall under?

    MANIPULATING PROCEDURAL OUTCOMES,

    GIVING NON-RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS ASKED,

    DECLARING ANSWERS BY SUSPICIOUS PERSONS ‘AUTHORITATIVE’ WITHOUT ANY ATTEMPT AT MINIMALLY ADVERSARIAL ANALYSIS.

    It’s so easy, it’s like poetry, it’s all you got.

    Fairy Ballot (ec47a5)

  176. Paul Montagu (1d8ad3) — 12/11/2020 @ 9:15 am

    . If you’re going to make a Big Allegation, then it’s on you to step forward with Big Evidence. So far, you’ve failed miserably where it counts, in courts of law.

    Oh, they have evidence. Statistical evidence.

    1. Voter turnout was extremely high. Since Trump knows he did not stuff the ballot box, all those extra votes for Biden must be ballot box stuffing.

    2. As the vote was counted, thee lead changed. That’s highly improbable if the votes were counted randomly.

    3. Georgia was the only state in the Deep South he lost. How come he carried Florida and North Carolina, but lost Georgia?

    4. No presidential candidate has ever lost who carried all of the following three states: Florida, Ohio and Iowa. Well, Richard Nixon did in 1960, but that election was also stolen from him. (the 1960 twist hasn’t yet been made)

    I also didn’t check to see if,s was true for all presidential elections since 1848.

    With that kind of “proof” you don’t need to investigate details because you’ve presented a global proof.

    Of course, there are simple explanations for each one of these statistical aberrations. Voter turnout was high, and driven up by Trump and the ease of absentee voting, but it was up for both sides, THe votes were not tabulated without reference to who the votes were for, and people knew it would be tht way before the election. There’s been political and some demographic change in Georgia and a very active get out the vote drive on the part of Stacey Abrams and other Democrats. Just by chance you could find several bellwether states but things change. Missouri was carried by every winning candidate for century starting in 1904, with the exception of 1956, when Harry S Truman campaigned hard for Stevenson.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)

  177. If the FBI thinks an American is committing espionage they investigate and have them arrested. If they think someone is being courted or groomed by a spy but is not spying, they warn them. I’m not sure why we would punish someone just because they were targetted by a foreign government, if the person took steps to make it clear that they were not available for targetting as soon as they knew about it.

    Nic (896fdf)

  178. “Just by chance you could find several bellwether states but things change.”

    Let’s stick to facts, not your statistical wishcasting. When asked to submit hard evidence in support of these arguments, it looks like y’all prefer to mix and match unrelated numbers and…sigh…ANSWER QUESTIONS UNRELATED TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND. Always the same way with you people, smdh:

    “B. Georgia’s critiques of the evidence are
    false.
    Georgia argues that the “[r]ejection rates for signatures on absentee ballots remained largely unchanged” as between the 2018 and 2020 elections, referring the Court to Wood v. Raffensperger, No. 1:20- cv-04651-SDG, 2020 WL 6817513, at *10 (N.D. Ga. Nov. 20, 2020) (“Wood”). Georgia Br. 4. Georgia’s reliance on Wood is misplaced because the analysis therein related to rejection rates for absentee ballots—as opposed to the mail-in ballots analyzed by Dr. Cicchetti. Supp. Cicchetti Decl. ¶¶ 13-19. (App. 158a-60a). Georgia’s rejection rate comparison is therefore inapposite. Id.

    Specifically, the district court in Wood cited to “ECF 33-6” (id. at n.30) which is the affidavit of Chris Harvey, Georgia Director of Elections. First, the Harvey Affidavit itself does not cite any evidence for 5 signature rejection rates; rather, it relies solely upon a complaint in an unrelated action. Supp. Cicchetti Decl. ¶¶ 14-15. (App. 158a-59a) (citing Democratic Party of Georgia et al. v. Raffensperger). Second, as explained by Dr. Cicchetti, the Harvey Affidavit relies on 2018 data which does not provide an accurate comparison with a presidential election year. Id. ¶¶ 19, 22. (App. 160a-62a). More importantly, the Harvey affidavit discusses absentee ballots—not mail-in ballots at issue here and as analyzed by Dr. Cicchetti. Mail-in ballots are subject to much higher rejection rates.

    Indeed, in 2018, the rejection rate for mail-in ballots was actually 3.32% or more than twenty times higher than the rejection rate for the absentee ballots that Georgia incorrectly compares to dispute Dr. Cicchetti’s analysis. . Id. at ¶¶ 16-18. (App. 159a-60a). In short, Georgia’s attempt to rebut
    Dr. Cicchetti’s analysis fails. Id. ¶ 22. (App. 161a-62a)”

    Fairy Ballot (920ffe)

  179. With that kind of “proof” you don’t need to investigate details because you’ve presented a global proof.

    The Trumpers’ “statistical” argument appears to start with the premise that voters’ choices state by state cannot possibly have changed significantly since 2016, and therefore any statistical deviation from 2016 — or from some pattern observed in earlier years — must be a result of fraud.

    Whereas heretofore they were saying that Trump is so awesome he totally broke the mold and realigned electoral politics forever.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  180. Oh, they have evidence. Statistical evidence.

    Indeed, Sammy. These are statistical inconsistencies which could be evidence, or could be something else, but actual proof of fraudulent or illegal ballots.

    Paul Montagu (5a2167)

  181. Let’s stick to facts, not your statistical wishcasting.

    And then you cited Cichetti, Fairy, the guy who “statistically” concluded that there was 1 in a quadrillion chance that Biden won, which is statistically stupid. If you want to expose fraud, look no further than Cichetti’s spreadsheets.

    Fixing my typo above: …but NOT actual proof…

    Paul Montagu (5a2167)

  182. Look, if you wanted to increase our respect for lawyers, you should probably present a few that don’t get their facts wrong in the actual public briefs they file before the actual courts. And be able to pull arguments from the links instead of assuming that the links answer the question.

    Sister-biting Moose (20a095)

  183. #2
    It wasn’t a normal election. Granted, it got you the result you wanted, but mail in voting needs a national standard for voter validation protocols. We should have some type of national standard diqualifying any ballot postmarked later than the date of election. Right now we have the “free” part down, but “fair” is the hard part. I don’t think it is fair for some states to stretch the rules when other adhere to them for example,some states seem to have allowed ballots mailed on the 4th to count and other states abided by the letter of the law.

    I understand your disgust for low character people running in Georgia, but do you really think Ossoff and Warnock have higher character than Perdue and Loeffler, or are Ossoff and Warnock enemy of your enemy, so whatever the character flaws they may have, there is no sin greater than support for Trump? I think that is cutting off your nose to spite your face, but knock yourself out, its your face.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  184. 182. Paul Montagu (5a2167) — 12/11/2020 @ 10:30 am

    These are statistical inconsistencies which could be evidence, or could be something else, but actual proof of fraudulent or illegal ballots [is missing]

    They’re not even inconsistencies.

    They are just things they claim are improbable. Including such questions as how could Trump carry North Carolina but lose Georgia? How come so many people voted? How did Trump carry both Ohio and Florida and yet lose the election? How come the vote lead switched?

    They’ve got little things, like 1400 people in Pennsylvania (in total) who registered to vote from a Post Office Box. And that could even be legitimate, like if the person was homeless and lived on the street, or a mistake – the person really did have a place of residence but gave a P.O. Box and there’s only a slight geographical error in the address. You’ve got to start looking up what you know of any of these people.

    Or claims by some people that they sent in absentee ballots but they were not counted. That’s what Trump (and everybody) said would happen.

    Sammy Finkelman (26a080)


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