States Take The Lead: Partnering Up To Decide How To Get Back To Business As Usual (UPDATE ADDED)
[guest post by Dana]
What?? Governors think they know what will best fit their states’ needs?!
This morning, President Trump again asserted that it’s his decision to reopen the country, not the state governors:
….It is the decision of the President, and for many good reasons. With that being said, the Administration and I are working closely with the Governors, and this will continue. A decision by me, in conjunction with the Governors and input from others, will be made shortly!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 13, 2020
In spite of Trump’s claims, state governors are collectively going about the business of opening up their states in a framework that best fits their region’s specific needs:
Today, California Governor Gavin Newsom, Oregon Governor Kate Brown and Washington Governor Jay Inslee announced an agreement on a shared vision for reopening their economies and controlling COVID-19 into the future…
…In the coming weeks, the West Coast will flip the script on COVID-19 – with our states acting in close coordination and collaboration to ensure the virus can never spread wildly in our communities.
We are announcing that California, Oregon and Washington have agreed to work together on a shared approach for reopening our economies – one that identifies clear indicators for communities to restart public life and business.
While each state is building a state-specific plan, our states have agreed to the following principles as we build out a West Coast framework: Our residents’ health comes first…Health outcomes and science – not politics – will guide these decisions…Our states will only be effective by working together.
New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, along with the northeastern governors of New Jersey, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and Delaware, on Monday announced a regional effort to eventually reopen the economy in a “coordinated way” amid the coronavirus crisis…
During their news conference, Cuomo announced that states will begin to coordinate efforts to reopen society. As for the timeframe of reopening, Cuomo said: “It has to be weeks.”
“We should start looking forward to ‘reopening’, but reopening with a plan and a smart plan because if you do it wrong, it can backfire,” Cuomo said during the event. “What the art form is going to be here is doing that smartly and doing that productively and doing that in a coordinated way — in coordination with other states in the area and doing it as a cooperative effort where we learn from each other where we share information, share resources, where we share intelligence.”
He added: “No one has done this before—it’s one step forward after research and consultation with experts–I’m not a public health expert but this has to be informed by experts.”
Cuomo said that each state will name an economic developer and a health official that will be led by each governor’s chief of staff to “form a working group that will start work immediately on designing a reopening plan,” while taking into consideration “the public health concerns and issues and the economic reactivation issues and concerns.”
Gov. Gina Raimondo of Rhode Island pointed out that “The reality is this virus doesn’t care about state borders, and our response shouldn’t either.”
Peter Navarro, the White House trade adviser argued that a continuing shutdown could be more harmful to the U.S. than the virus itself:
“It’s disappointing that so many of the medical experts and pundits pontificating in the press appear tone deaf to the very significant losses of life and blows to American families that may result from an extended economic shutdown,” Mr. Navarro said in an interview.
“Instead, they piously preen on their soap boxes speaking only half of the medical truth without reference or regard for the other half of the equation,” he said, “which is the very real mortal dangers associated with the closure of the economy for an extended period.”
As to the president’s powers, this was Trump on April 10, discussing pesky things like “federalist” (Can we can assume he was referring to Federalism?) and “the Constitution,” and his belief that he can overrule governors who defy him:
I like to allow governors to make decisions without overruling them, because from a constitutional standpoint, that’s the way it should be done. If I disagreed, I would overrule a governor, and I have that right to do it. But I’d rather have them — you can call it “federalist,” you can call it “the Constitution,” but I call it “the Constitution.” I would rather have them make their decisions.
It’s exhausting to have to closely scrutinize whatever Trump says, but in this case, it seems pretty obvious – especially the part about it not mattering to him whether something is Constituionally correct or not, because that would be consistent with the Trump we know:
Make no mistake: this tweet [Trump’s at top of post] isn’t “ignorant.” It sets up the premise to blame governors who “disobey” Trump’s call to reopen the country when he does it. It sows confusion and stokes anger at people other than himself. Doesn’t matter if it’s constitutionally correct.
As to whether Trump has the authority to override state and local orders:
No. Under our constitutional system, states have the power and responsibility for maintaining public order and safety. As we’ve seen since the outbreak began, decisions about limiting social interactions by ordering people to shelter in place, closing businesses and shutting schools are being made by governors and local officials. Those same officials will make the call about when to ease up. Trump’s comments “are just advisory.
At today’s press conference, Trump was asked, “What provision in the Constitution gives the President the power to open or close state economies?” Trump replied that there were “numerous provisions” that did so. He also stated that, when states closed their businesses and restaurants, he “let that happen…”
UPDATE: Here is a clip of President Trump from today’s press conference, claiming that a president’s “authority is total”:
President Trump: "When somebody's the president of the United States, the authority is total." pic.twitter.com/ZqM7VqswA5
— The Hill (@thehill) April 13, 2020
Jonah Goldberg is absolutely right:
So. Trump said “When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total.”
This is antithetical to everything conservatives have argued for 50 years.
POTUS cannot take away your free speech or your 2nd amendment rights. He doesn’t have the authority to tell you to stay home or leave home. He doesn’t have authority to tell states to tell you to either — and if he managed it, it would require Congressional authorization.
The Trump praetorians will circle around to the fact that Trump ultimately said something about a “situation like this.” Okay. The president still doesn’t have the authority to close restaurants, schools or Churches OR OPEN THEM. He doesn’t have those police powers.
And if any conservative — including Mike Pence who’s dancing as I type this — says POTUS has anything like those powers they are violating vast swaths of what conservatives claimed to believe before Trump became president.
This is what the “conservatism” under Trump looks like. Will any conservatives in Congress push back on this nonsense? Or should we expect to hear the familar, empty sound of…crickets?
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (0feb77) — 4/13/2020 @ 4:11 pmDana, you may want to update this after today’s conference. Trump has lost his ever-lovin’ mind.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/13/2020 @ 4:27 pm“There are no solutions. There are only tradeoffs.” I love this Thomas Sowell quotation.
These re-opening decisions are going to be interesting. They are akin to setting a speed limit. Sure, there would be fewer traffic fatalities if the top speed anywhere were 20 miles per hour, but the economic cost would be unbearable. On the other hand, no speed limit may often allow quicker trips, but there would be many deaths.
Times like these are when those people who vaingloriously sought to hold public office are getting what they wanted, and then some.
norcal (a5428a) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:01 pmDespite “Trump’s Claims”? He never claimed the Governors can’t close or re-open their own states! He said he has final approval over those broad actions, and can override them if he wishes. He’s also stated – just today – that he will work with the Governors because they – and the mayors – have the best knowledge of their localities. Again, why wouldn’t he? What do you think he’s going to do, tell NY or Calf to Re-open when they want to stay locked down?
OTOH, he’s not going to let State Governors dictate whether we’re going to restart THE NATIONAL ECONOMY. Once he dedicides to restart, he’s not going to let Texas keep the energy industry closed or California keep Silicon Valley shut down. But that will all be worked out.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:02 pmHow many threads on internet, or Pundit columns, START With someone setting up a Trump strawman and then knocking it down? This has been going on for years! Remeber Trump Russia? Remember Comey? REmember charlottsville? It goes on and on.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:04 pmHere’s a strawman, Trump is both stupid AND insane.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:17 pmHe said he has final approval over those broad actions, and can override them if he wishes.
Both of which are stupidly FALSE.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:20 pmI’ve updated the post with a video clip of Trump claiming that a president’s authority is “total,” followed by an excellent response from Jonah Goldberg.
Dana (0feb77) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:21 pmOnce he dedicides to restart, he’s not going to let Texas keep the energy industry closed or California keep Silicon Valley shut down. But that will all be worked out.
The poor moron you LUUUUUUUVES can’t “let” the Texas oil patch open any more than he “made” it close. The market will do that, just as it DID that. When the governors decide to jump in any direction, Duh Donald will be leading…from his behind!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:25 pmThe constitution was all about countering politicians who would seek total authority. What a gasbag.
norcal (a5428a) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:28 pm“So T-rump isn’t a conservative. How could electing him hurt?”
Wul, duh…!!!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:29 pmI like many of the things Trump has done, but I am dumbfounded at the words that come out of his mouth.
norcal (a5428a) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:31 pmTrump is an ignorant doofus, and a cad, no doubt. Which is why I did not vote for him (nor for Hillary, who would have been worse, IMO.)
But in terms of authority, while it is true that each state has reserved to it the police power to maintain order within its borders, INTERSTATE commerce is clearly something within federal authority.
Any reopening of a region involving multiple states will perforce touch upon interstate commerce, which the states have limited ability to control.
Remember when the governor of Rhode Island wanted to ban traffic from other states, and was told that is illegal? If she insisted, would not the president have the authority to “overrule” her?
So, as usual, Trump is a moron, but when you dig deeper, he has half a point. (Ok, maybe a quarter of a point.)
Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:32 pmHow is Trump’s theory of his “total power” different than that of Lenin with the “State Capitalism” of the Marxist-Leninist set?
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:36 pmHow is Trump’s theory of his “total power” different than that of Lenin with the “State Capitalism” of the Marxist-Leninist set?
Because Lenin thought it through and meant it.
Trump will say something different tomorrow if it suits him. With Trump it is all about what he thinks makes him look good at that moment.
Thank God he is not too bright.
Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:38 pmA good and sobering point, BL. I guess in this instance Trump is straddling the border between exaggeration and lying.
norcal (a5428a) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:39 pmTo paraphrase Nixon “When the President does it, that means it’s not unconstitutional”.
RipMurdock (9f866e) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:50 pmThe interaction after the video when Trump was talking about all the things he did in January with the “shutdown” travel to China, and his March 11th Oval Office address, the CBS reporter kept asking him about what happened in Feb. He had no answer, he did spend a few minutes insulting her, but just couldn’t name a single thing. He could have said a couple of things that he did that weren’t lies, he did later claim that his ban on travel to Europe was in Feb, it was March 12th, with the UK and Ireland a few days later.
It was the crazies 5 minutes I’ve ever seen by a public official, and I met Rob Ford in Toronto in mid-bender.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:55 pmcraziest
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/13/2020 @ 5:56 pmLOL! Trump crushed the media and morons today and they don’t even realize it. He is setting them all up again! Loving the show!!!!
Boo Hoo (85a5e2) — 4/13/2020 @ 6:40 pmAh, your back with a new name.
It’s too bad we don’t realize the crazy idiot show today was actually genius at work. Contrary to all evidence.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/13/2020 @ 6:52 pm“He is setting them all up again! Loving the show!!!!”
I also love the president putting on a show when 23,000 people have died.
Davethulhu (d0f7de) — 4/13/2020 @ 6:53 pmIt is a tedious orange.
nk (1d9030) — 4/13/2020 @ 6:58 pmIt was like when that 1952 Honda set up Godzilla…crushing him…!!!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/13/2020 @ 7:13 pmCadet Bonespurs can’t even
nk (1d9030) — 4/13/2020 @ 7:18 pmopen his own zipper when he goes to the bathroom and Kellyanne has to do it for himget sanctuary cities to hold on to illegal alien criminals, something over which he is supposed to have almost absolute authority. What’s he going to do when the governors and mayors tell him to go lick Putin’s ankles? Hold his breath till he turns purple?Leave it to Trump to claim existing presidential power in such a way that no one wants him to have it.
If there is *anything* that changed in the 20th Century it was the primacy of federal power in commerce. Wickard and every damn thing that FDR and a century of presidents did aimed at making the federal government the prime, if not sole, authority in most federal matters. We even have a “dormant commerce clause” that limits what states can to regarding local regulations, if the product they are regulating is involved interstate commerce.
The governor’s have primary power within their own states ONLY regarding civil disorder. Invasion and other national security issues, international travel and trade and immigration are uniquely, except that state authorities can act against invasion until federal power is brought to bear.
States are expressly forbidden to engage in intrastate pacts or compacts or to make trade agreements with each other or foreign powers. There is nothing in the Constitution that says “… unless the President is a moronic clown who can’t tie his own shoes.”
If they want Trump out of the picture, their sole power is to impeach him, which is why I have said for over two years that they should impeach him for incompetence and maladministration. They did not, so now they have to let this buttplug run the show. I have no doubt that the US Supreme Court and any other federal court that doesn’t have pure politics as a guide will affirm his power.
Impeach him, remove him through other means, or accept that states cannot run the show against his will without overturning most every decision since the New Deal.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 7:54 pmThe governor’s have primary power within their own states ONLY regarding civil disorder
Better stated: The governors have primary emergency power within their own states ONLY regarding civil disorder.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 7:55 pmAnd again: The governors have primary emergency power within their own states ONLY regarding civil disorder. Invasion and other national security issues, international travel and trade and immigration are uniquely FEDERAL, except that state authorities can act against invasion until federal power is brought to bear.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 7:56 pmIf the Senate was still elected by legislatures, Trump would be gone by now.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 7:57 pmCongress has the power to regulate interstate commerce. What does that have to do with Donal Trump’s Article II that says he can do anything he wants?
Leviticus (cdf0fe) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:05 pmI don’t see how this is defensible.
The state governments have “plenary” or “police” power. Basically they can do anything that doesn’t violate their own state constitution, and which is not one of the limited powers of the federal government enumerated in the constitution (making war, coining money, etc).
The federal government has ONLY the powers granted by the constitution.
tldr; Trump is not king
Dave (1bb933) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:05 pmThe president’s claim of absolute authority actually -is- quite conservative when measured against what he really desires.
Hint: consider the phrase “Glorious Leader”
John B Boddie (678895) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:07 pmThe Compacts Clause issue is an interesting one. I’d love for it to get a test run in the courts, in advance of the National Popular Vote compact reaching operable status.
Leviticus (cdf0fe) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:07 pmFinally. Finally Thank God for Donald Trump! We’ve had all these fact patterns and appealing people and desperate times, from 9/11 to the Great Depression, steer our people steadily away from federalism, but now, this is a fact pattern to establish federalism again.
In a Presidential Election year no less, where most states will want to divert attention to this conflict, and indeed have a moral, legal, and life threatening conflict, where the US Supreme Court, in their heart of hearts, will be inclined to support federalism.
Kevin is right. Trump is going along with a trend of decisions against federalism. But those decisions were wrong, and we would be better off if that were recognized.
Trump ain’t going anywhere. He will probably be re-elected. But because the primary process is broken and the two-party system is broken, our government does not represent society, nor does our government care about our society. The situation is ripe for change.
I hope everyone is well at home. Families are facing hardship all over the world, largely as a consequence of our governments, most of which are terrible. Americans have a bad government relative to other times in our history, yet it’s nowhere near as bad as many other countries. People live their whole lives in much worse circumstances. It is up to Americans to legally pursue freedom, and a national government over so many diverse states, cities, and ideas simply cannot be as free as a federalist one. We are both fortunate and at a moment in history where our president is forcing us to choose to continue to be.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:10 pmThe governors have primary emergency power within their own states ONLY regarding civil disorder.
Bullspit, Kevin. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:13 pmIn matters that involve federal issues, it IS true. IN joining the federal union, they gave up significant powers, particularly in commerce. But, fine, you think it is bullpucky, make you case rather than just yelling.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:21 pmCongress has the power to regulate interstate commerce. What does that have to do with Donal Trump’s Article II that says he can do anything he wants?
And part of those actions have been to pass a number of emergency powers for the president. Further, the president has several unique powers from article II, such as administering and executing those federal laws. Tell me what power the GOVERNORS have with regards to interstate commerce, or any other thing not wholly within their state?
That Trump is a buffoon does not change any of that. That he claims powers with stupid boasts, and is ignorant of powers he does have, does not mean he has no powers or that the governors gain some.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:24 pm@26 and 28-
The governors have primary emergency power within their own states ONLY regarding civil disorder.
Uhhh……no.
……….Source
RipMurdock (94a8a0) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:27 pmThe federal government has ONLY the powers granted by the constitution.
That ship has long since sailed.
If the Democrat Party will, today, renounce Wickard and most everything FDR did, demand the closing of the EPA, the Departments of Education, HHS, Energy and Labor, and come out and once again claim “state’s rights” as a fundamental principle in the Constitution, I will agree with your statement.
I doubt they will do that, and lacking that, they cannot pick and choose which of their precedents we must ignore.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:29 pmThe Compacts Clause issue is an interesting one. I’d love for it to get a test run in the courts, in advance of the National Popular Vote compact reaching operable status.
It is imperative that is tested before an election hinges on the question. Any citizen of any state that has signed onto the compact ought to have standing, as it effects how their vote is counted. A citizen of a small state that gains significant clout under the electoral college would seem to have more clear standing.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:33 pm“ part of those actions have been to pass a number of emergency powers for the president.“
– Kevin M
Such as? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m just curious to know which powers you are considering in this instance.
Trump’s asserting that he can override a governor’s stay at home order, or open up a state’s businesses against a governor’s directives. By what specific authority?
Leviticus (cdf0fe) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:33 pmThe police power of the states has been invoked on multiple occasions by the Supreme Court, often in contrast to the limited powers of the federal government—for example, in Chief Justice John Roberts’ opinion in the 2012 Obamacare case.
So, governors could opt out of Obamacare and deny the federal power to regulate their internal insurance markets? I think not. All that decision said in this regard, which you helpfully leave out, was that the feds could not force them to take federal Medicaid money that came with conditions that overrode state laws.
And, again none of this is an EMERGENCY power and NONE of this affects something that is happening in the next state.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:36 pmIn a 1905 Supreme Court case that upheld mandatory smallpox vaccinations, the court observed that “upon the principle of self-defense, of paramount necessity, a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members.”
And in fact, that would also by extension allow a FEDERAL mandatory vaccination program for, say, Coronavirus, for all the reasons cited. And those same reasons would defeat any state that opposed such a federal mandatory program.
But you again ignore my limitation of both interstate and emergency conditions. This pandemic is not limited to state lines and the effects of opening, or not opening, a state’s businesses has wider effect generally than that single state.
If the New York governor ordered financial markets and banks closed, would you really argue this is merely an internal state matter?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:41 pmYou’re the one yelling. I’m going to bed. I’ll screw with you tomorrow. You can pull more nonsense out of your gerbil warmer until then.
BTW, you didn’t gin this crap up on your own. Where’d you get it?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:45 pmSuch as? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m just curious to know which powers you are considering in this instance.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:46 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act“>
The National Emergencies Act for one. I am not a lawyer, so you will have to deal with plain language citations. Or the Brennan Center, which discusses the other 135 such acts.
Sorry about the formatting of the above, but the links work.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:47 pmDoes the federal government license stores, bars, restaurants and hotels?
Does the federal government license drivers, cars and trucks?
Does the federal government license doctors, nurses, hospitals and clinics?
Does the federal government license teachers and schools?
Does the federal government license daycare centers and nursing homes?
Does the federal government license insurance companies?
Etc., etc, etc.
As for interstate compacts, just what is one? When an Illinois state trooper radios a Wisconsin state trooper “There’s such and such a truck with a load of margarine* northbound on I-94 that’s about to cross the border from us to you”, is that an interstate compact?
*That might no longer be illegal.
nk (1d9030) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:48 pmBTW, you didn’t gin this crap up on your own. Where’d you get it?
Mostly from the year-long class I had at Mudd, over 40 years ago, from this man. Our course material was all three volumes of The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, as collected by Max Farrand.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:53 pmI’ll ignore the implied name-calling there.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:54 pmDoes the federal government license insurance companies? Obamacare says YES.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 8:58 pmDoes the federal government license teachers and schools? The Department of Education says YES.
Does the federal government license drivers, cars and trucks? Truck drivers are subject to federal rules.
Does the federal government license doctors, nurses, hospitals and clinics? And again HHS says you betcha.
The also tell farmers what to grow, people what to smoke, doctors what to prescribe, broadcast stations what is forbidden, and ports what goods to admit.
As for interstate compacts, just what is one?
Any agreeement among state governments, for starters. They are not forbidden, they just have to be authorized by Congress and and not otherwise violate or subvert the US Constitution.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:01 pmGod, but I wish for an editing function here.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:02 pmSo Trump would use the National Emergencies Act to declare that the emergency is over and people should go back to work? I am not convinced.
Leviticus (cdf0fe) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:03 pmBy the way, Presidents have asserted an unfettered power to declare national emergencies since Lincoln, and until 1976, there was no federal statute limiting such. Truman’s seizure of the steel mills was the first such to be blocked by the Supreme Court.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:12 pmYes, after Wickard, Congress could conceivably abolish all parking meters in Chicago as affecting interstate commerce. Or install more. But it has not, and as far as I know it has not delegated the authority to NHTSA, Elaine Chao, or Trump to do it by regulation or executive order, either.
Remember the rawboned redheaded nurse suspected of Ebola whom both Christie and LePage locked up? She could file suit under Section 1983 to challenge the conditions of her confinement. But that’s all. She needed a state writ of habeas corpus to challenge the confinement itself. Obama could not order her release by executive order.
Similarly, Illinois would very likely have to let in a busload of U.S. citizens (yes, citizens) from New York City. But then it could quarantine them for 14 days and a judge, state or federal, could order their release, but all Trump would have to say about is to order Barr to file an amicus brief.
nk (1d9030) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:14 pmKevin, it is one thing to declare a national emergency and another to tell a state it does not have a state emergency.
As an aside, can we agree, at least, that states have absolute power over alcohol consumption, per the 21st Amendment? 😉
nk (1d9030) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:20 pmAllahpundit makes some good points, in particular how can one square:
with
Dave (1bb933) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:23 pm— “When somebody is President of the United States, his authority is total.”
— Oh, yeah? Well, I can call up spirits from the vasty deep.
nk (1d9030) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:26 pmA lot of the ways the federal government forces states to do things isn’t really “the law says I can” it’s “if you don’t do this we’ll withdraw these funding sources or proceed with these military base closures.”
One of the reasons, IMO, that Newsome has been so on top of the Corona virus is that Trump has been so endlessly awful about disaster aid to California because we didn’t vote for him, so Newsome figured we might be on our own and had a plan (good thing, since we are, though mostly through Trump’s incompetence rather than malice.)
There’s always been a social compact that the president considers himself the president responsible for everyone even if they didn’t vote for him, so red states and blue states all have the expectation that the feds will follow through on their responsibilities regardless of whether or not the president is red or blue. I think the entire country would have been horrified if Obama had said he was thinking of not sending hurricane aid to Texas because they were red and “didn’t like him”. Trump doesn’t think he has a responsibility to blue states because they didn’t vote for him and has dented that social compact.
Nic (896fdf) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:32 pmSo Trump would use the National Emergencies Act to declare that the emergency is over and people should go back to work? I am not convinced.
He did declare one, after all. But yes, he abdicated some authority by dithering while the governors acted. It may actually be that by doing so, he has surrendered some of that authority. Still, opening back up needs interstate co-ordination, as even the governors seem to acknowledge, and that really is a federal thing, not a state matter.
I doubt that it would be advisable to open everything up all at once, or even the same in every state, but some things do need to be done simultaneously, particularly relating to transportation. IF Trump wasn’t an idiot and it wasn’t all about him, he would officially de3legate some things to the governors like when to allow gatherings again, and reserve some things to the feds, like rules on air travel. California will probably want to reopen in mid-May, but here in New Mexico we won’t reach the peak until then.
My problem is not the observation that Trump is a douche, but that The President does not have powers that are unique to that office. I wish that Pelosi had not set up impeachment to fail, but she did, making the weakest case possible. So here we are and Trump is still President. I won’t destroy the office to prevent him from destroying the office.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:33 pmSo is this five dimensional chess to get the governors blamed for delays in getting back to business or do the Handmaids camps really start opening up this summer?
harkin (b64479) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:34 pm_
#57: If you are saying the man is total scumbag and has no business in that office, I’d have to agree. Both parties failed in 2016 and Biden being no better, they intend to fail again in 2020.
An independent candidate with some gravitas who ran on a platform of renewed federalism would be quite attractive this year.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:35 pmSo is this five dimensional chess to get the governors blamed for delays in getting back to business or do the Handmaids camps really start opening up this summer?
I’m expecting rips in the universe before long. This year sucks.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:36 pmOne of the reasons, IMO, that Newsome has been so on top of the Corona virus is that Trump has been so endlessly awful about disaster aid to California because we didn’t vote for him
In much the same way that Obama ignored Texas.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:37 pm@64 Nope. Fed disaster aid always went to Texas as needed and Obama never threatened to with-hold it because the governor wasn’t nice enough to him or because the state voted red.
Nic (896fdf) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:38 pmAs an aside, can we agree, at least, that states have absolute power over alcohol consumption, per the 21st Amendment?
Oh, I am NOT arguing against federalism, I am arguing against ignoring how far the country has turned against federalism over the last 100 or so years. Rank hypocrisy, based solely on the President of the moment.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:39 pmFed disaster aid always went to Texas later, and not with the same ease it went to other places. Trump has declared this a disaster in all 50 states, after all. Just not with the same sparkle in his eye.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:42 pmWell, I’ll tell you something anyway, I don’t mind discussing, even arguing, with you about these things. It’s hearing it from the orange bonespur that raises my hackles.
nk (1d9030) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:45 pmIt is amazing, as I said way up in #26, that Trump is so fracking ignorant that he cannot make an effective claim to powers that are actually his. Instead he claims all power and looks the fool, making it easy for governors to work around him in areas they have no right to do so.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:46 pmIt’s hearing it from the orange bonespur that raises my hackles.
That’s two of us. But he remains the president until defeated, impeached or some medical event interferes.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:48 pm@67 I’ll remember that when I, like every citizen of California, am out raking the NATIONAL forest because our lizard-brained President said the STATE (which is not responsible for the national forest) didn’t maintain them properly so he’s going to cut off funding to people who lost their houses.
Nic (896fdf) — 4/13/2020 @ 9:56 pmWhy is the legal drinking age 21 again?
Forget red states, Obama did that to NJ during Sandy until Chris Christie granted Obama a big photo op for his reelection campaign.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/13/2020 @ 10:11 pmAnd according to Newsom, the President has been a big help and given what’s been asked for.
@50-
Does the federal government license insurance companies? Obamacare says YES.
Why then do states require insurance companies to obtain licenses, receive permission to sell policies in their states and regulate their rates?
Does the federal government license teachers and schools? The Department of Education says YES.
No. States license teachers and schools.
Does the federal government license drivers, cars and trucks? Truck drivers are subject to federal rules.
Only because they are interstate commerce. States license passenger car and their drivers.
Does the federal government license doctors, nurses, hospitals and clinics? And again HHS says you betcha.
No. Doctors, nurses, and hospitals are licensed by states, unless the hospitals receive federal funds.
The also tell farmers what to grow, people what to smoke, doctors what to prescribe, broadcast stations what is forbidden, and ports what goods to admit.
RipMurdock (94a8a0) — 4/13/2020 @ 10:26 pmThat is a complete exaggeration. Farmers can grow what they want, and smokers can smoke anything they want. I agree broadcasters should be able to broadcast anything they want. Ports can import anytthing they want, subject to import duties and legal products.
@72 “Why is the legal drinking age 21 again?”
Federal highway funds.
“Obama did that to NJ… until Chri Christie granted Obama a big photo op.”
Nope.
“according to Newsom…”
Uh huh. We are very grateful for the broken ventilators and lack of PPE sent by the feds. Newsom isn’t a political animal at all.
Nic (896fdf) — 4/13/2020 @ 10:32 pmWhy is the legal drinking age 21 again?
Highway money bribery (or blackmail if you wish).
However, more to point is that the ATF can put a federal tax stamp on a bottle of Jack Daniels but the Tennessee county in which Jack Daniels is made can forbid its sale to, or consumption by, its residents (it was a dry county last time I looked), and there’s nothing Congress, the President, or Mnuchin can do about it.
nk (1d9030) — 4/13/2020 @ 10:35 pm@72
Why is the legal drinking age 21 again?
States are free to lower the drinking age to 18, if they don’t need 8 percent of their highway funds. State’s choice.
RipMurdock (94a8a0) — 4/13/2020 @ 10:38 pmNic,
I live in NJ. Yep.
And the federal funds are how the feds control the states. Addicted to it. Just look at medicaid.
NJRob (4d595c) — 4/13/2020 @ 10:53 pmTrump is a populist ex-democrat not a libertarian conservative. (that is why he won!) Libertarian conservatism is as dead as the dodo bird. See how many candidate ran on doing away with medicare in 2018. How long has it been that we have heard ” Its your tax money you keep it. You know how to spend your money then government does.” ( government will just waste it on ventilators and surgical masks) Government should be so small we can drown it in a bathtub! ( libertarian conservative motto)
asset (8bc276) — 4/13/2020 @ 11:41 pmHere’s the problem with Trump’s “hope” and “absolute authority” to reopen Sheldon Adelson’s casinos. He will lull people into complacency while his “hoax” virus is still at its peak and hundreds of thousand of Americans will die, while his son-in-law is zealously guarding “his” national stockpile of medical supplies.
nk (1d9030) — 4/13/2020 @ 11:45 pmLove reading how you experts of intelligence let orange man bad ruin your life.
mg (8cbc69) — 4/13/2020 @ 11:46 pmI was a Republican from 1981 to 2013, and have been a Republican from 2018 to present, yet I trust three Democrat governors more than Trump when it comes to reopening the economy on the west coast.
Paul Montagu (0073cc) — 4/14/2020 @ 12:47 am@77 Link (from a legitimate source, not Alex Jones type) for Obama requiring the meeting from Christie for funds please?
And yes, federal funds are how the fed pressures states. It’s in my comment @59
@80 Here’s the thing, I’m a middle class professional in my mid 40s. Unless Trump gets us into a war or does something totally unrecoverable to ruin the economy, or does something during this epidemic to make it 100X worse, he’s not going to ruin my life. I’ve got enough years in that I’m senior in my position and I’ve got enough years left that the economy will have time to recover from almost anything he does to it. This does not keep me from noticing that he is terrible. He should try being less bad, it would probably help his popularity. Amazing how if I’m standing out in the rain, I notice that water is wet, even if I, personally, am unlikely to melt from it.
Nic (896fdf) — 4/14/2020 @ 12:53 amFrom what I recall, Obama was eager to be seen as responding with dispatch to Hurricane Sandy. And even if you subscribe to the “Obama is literally Satan” school of thought, why wouldn’t he have been?
New Jersey had a Republican governor, but was a reliably Democrat state in the electoral college for the preceding quarter century. And it cost Obama nothing – it was the government’s money he could throw around to look generous and compassionate, not his own.
Also, a week before election day, Obama’s internal polling showed him comfortably ahead in the states he needed to win. He had no need to take risks.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/14/2020 @ 1:56 amSo. Trump said “When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total.”
This is antithetical to everything conservatives have argued for 50 years.
This is more Goldberg nonsense. Again, Jonah Goldberg is just setting up a strawman “Trump claims absolute authority as President in every situation all the time”. Except Trump, didn’t mean that, except in the context of an Medical Emergency or Pandemic. And everyone, including Trump knows that Congress can assert its authority, anytime it wants. Except, Congress has delegated the President great Emergency powers.
POTUS cannot take away your free speech or your 2nd amendment rights. He doesn’t have the authority to tell you to stay home or leave home. He doesn’t have authority to tell states to tell you to either — and if he managed it, it would require Congressional authorization.
Huh? Nobody is talking about Trump doing that. But Goldberg sure knocked that strawmen down!
The Trump praetorians will circle around to the fact that Trump ultimately said something about a “situation like this.” Okay. The president still doesn’t have the authority to close restaurants, schools or Churches OR OPEN THEM. He doesn’t have those police powers.
Goldberg, Like French, can never honestly state the opposing view, so he finally gets around to what Trump was actually talking about but has to sneer at the opposition and make their argument as weak as possible. Its simply irrelevant whether Trump has “Police Powers” at the local level, because he can FORCE the Governors and Mayors to use THEIR Police powers during a nation wide epidemic. If he declares – based on the CDC – there’s no pandemic risks that justifies the Governors keeping churches closed, he can take action against any Governor who defies him. What action would that take? Probably withholding of relief money. Or taking them to Federal Court. Eisenhower used the 82nd Airborne to enforce civil rights in the 1950s. Does “Conservative” Goldberg think that was wrong? Not bloody likely.
And if any conservative — including Mike Pence who’s dancing as I type this — says POTUS has anything like those powers they are violating vast swaths of what conservatives claimed to believe before Trump became president.
Again what nonsense! And what is Goldberg talking about here? what Trump actually said, or what he’s pretending Trump said? And why the sneers at Pence? Like always once you get rid of all the wordy fireworks, razzle-dazzle, insults, jibes, and rhetoric, Jonah Goldberg has nothing of substance to say. But then he’s been that way for 20 years. He used to be the comic conservative, talking about how Spock was a conservative or the Simpsons were funny, now he pretends to be some big thinker and fails.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 2:58 amGoldberg/Gruber/2020
mg (8cbc69) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:10 amrcocean, the strawman is what you’re claiming Goldberg said, just to knock it down.
You can tell by the quotation marks. Goldberg’s quotes are around words that someone actually said. Your quotation marks are around words that were not really said.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:11 am@ nk, #58:
Why, so can I, or so can any man. But will they come when you do call for them?
Demosthenes (7fae81) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:10 amThis is the hypocrisy of NeverTrump and the cluelessness of ForeverTrump writ large.
Until yesterday this was Trump’s virus. It was Trump who personally didn’t act soon enough. It was Trump’s fault for shutting things down and the economic fallout from that. It was states demanding that the feds give them supplies because it was ridiculous for them to work it out themselves. Before yesterday the issue was that Trump wasn’t authoritarian enough and ForeverTrump was arguing the other side.
Now, it’s not Trump’s call to restart things and it’s on the states to decide. Now, the issue is that Trump is an authoritarian and Trumpers are agreeing.
If it’s up to the states to decide when to restart it was their call to shutdown. That also means it was the states who acted too slowly at the start if you’re trying to make that case. You can’t at the same time say this is all on Trump and that it’s not his call. Obviously, it can be done because it’s being done so it’s probably more correct to say you can’t maintain both positions and be consistent.
The truth is a more complicated mix but it’s good to see that the threat of covid has subsided enough for the old reindeer games to return in their full glory.
frosty (f27e97) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:18 amIN joining the federal union, they gave up significant powers, particularly in commerce.
Let’s start with the history lesson. NO! In fact, they gave up few rights and particularly wrt commerce.
The Articles Of Confederation had been a dismal failure, and in no area more-so than in commerce between and among the states, who were each sovereigns and sometimes quite hostile to other states.
Hence the Commerce Clause. About the only thing the states “gave up” was their right to screw with trade from another state, which was a very small thing on balance, as they got a great deal more commerce as a result. They could not tax goods passing into or through their territory, or prohibit their passage outright, as they hitherto could and did.
An excellent little vignette showing the powers of governors after the Constitution was effected comes to us from the 1793 epidemic that literally decimated (reduced by a tenth) our new nation’s capital (Philadelphia). Governors from several states quarantined and embargoed goods from the stricken city. President Washington himself took no action beyond leaving the city.
This shows a fine little insight into what the states could do under the Commerce Clause in an extremity. Of course, regular commerce resumed without anybody mandating it when the emergency was over.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:28 amYou’re forcing a false equivalency.
Trump needs to take appropriate actions within the large bounds of presidential power.
Taking inappropriate action isn’t OK.
Declaring that he will take actions that exceed that large bound isn’t OK.
It’s not about direction, is about degree.
I’ll provide a silly illustration.
It’s good that governor Newsom took actions in Cal. to stop the spread of CV-19. It would not have been good if he’d enforced it with summary execution.
Just as a reminder
Things are clearly Trump’s Fault
-Not reacting to the briefings in early January about Covid-19 to begin preparations.
-Not establishing an effective travel ban with testing in late January. (even if you want to credit him for following the airlines lead with a China travel ban it was completely ineffective.)
-Not using the time between late January and mid-March to make sure we were materially prepared for Covid-19.
-Telling the public that Covid-19 wasn’t a threat and making multiple inaccurate statements about the risk.
-Doing a poor job coordinating the multi-state response once they did acknowledge the problem. (Telling states they’re on their own, the national strategic reserve is ‘ours’ and not for the states use)
-The federal government not proving concise and accurate updates on what’s going on.
Things that Trump could have done/could do better.
-Provide a clear, data driven, road map on what states should be doing to mitigate and encouraging them to follow these guidelines.
-Provide clear, data driven, road map on what must be true to re-open QT areas with succinct updates on how that’s going.
These are all things that a competent administration would at least try to do. The partisan debate in a world where Trump’s administration was good at doing things would revolve around degrees of action and efficacy.
Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:46 amIt’s now a 7-state union/coordinated decision in the east (New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania and Delaware, and a 3-state coordinated decision in the west (California, Oregon and Washington).
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:50 amGood thing we have this objective, neutral guy to tell us, as usual, not to attack Trump so much.
Dustin (830b96) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:51 amNo, Mr. frosty. Trump is like a cop who does nothing to protect you until you have been victimized. Then when you buy a gun to protect yourself, he comes and tries to take it away with his “absolute” authority while the criminal whom he let get away the first time is still lurking around the corner.
nk (1d9030) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:51 amFrom what I’ve seen Trump cares most about public opinion. He wants to be seen and acclaimed as very strong/powerful. He wants to been seen and acclaimed as in charge. He wants to be seen and acclaimed as very successful.
I haven’t seen that he wants to use power beyond his own narrow self & electoral interests.
Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:51 amI haven’t seen that he wants to be in charge and lead the nation.
I haven’t seen that he cares if his actions resulted in in success, or if we actually were successful.
Dustin (830b96) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:51 am
I’m sure you won’t let that get in the way of yet another “This is all Trump’s fault” or “lying liar” post. In fact, I’m sure you are more than capable of maintaining that this is in fact all Trump’s fault while at the same time maintaining that he doesn’t get to decide when to stop/start lockdown’s, etc.
At least you are consistent.
frosty (f27e97) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:59 amAgain, it’s not all Trumps fault but there are many aspects of this that are.
Trumps a failure for his handling of CV-19 so far this year.
Trump is wrong to claim he has powers to address this that he doesn’t have. He can’t do it by decree. If you care about limited government at all that’s obvious.
The fact that he has a lot of power doesn’t mean he has unlimited power.
Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:10 amThe fact that his power has limits does’t mean he’s not accountable for how well or poorly he uses the power he has.
This seems like the natural result of the federal government telling the states that they’re on their own and that the strategic reserve is not there to help them. States started forming co-ops to protect the common good.
Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:15 amTime123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:46 am
You’re arguing a different point. You’re arguing the actual merits of various Trump actions and whether they should be criticized. I’m pointing out the hypocrisy in the whiplash that just a day can make and the inconsistency in the arguments being made.
I’m basically agreeing with you in my original comment:
There are people in the media, and on this blog, who have made, are making, and will continue to make the case that “This is all on Trump”, and in some cases that is not a paraphrase. They will also criticize Trump for also claiming “This is all on Trump”. They aren’t making the more critical analysis you are making. They are simply making the case that whatever Trump is currently doing is wrong.
frosty (f27e97) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:23 amI get what you’re saying. I was just pointing out that it’s not impossible possible for Trump to be wrong both ways.
Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:26 am90. Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:46 am
Is it easy to get, or reasonable to expect, a competent administration?
There are degrees of competence, though.
Trump gets a B minus or maybe a B. Points subtracted for a certain maliciousness (as opposed to hard) with regard to travel.
We don’t know that anyone was telling him to do anything.
Those early briefings were mostly, or entirely, informational.
What he didn’t do is ride herd on the CDC etc.
There was the usual slow walking in obtaining test kits. There was the usual restriction to using non-approved kits just to research. There was the rejection of the test developed in Germany and sold through the WHO (which rejection applied to the entire country). The CDC I think was trying to create its own tests.
Trump’s real fault was leaving the government bureaucracy to its own devices.
Which the government bureaucracy liked.
But interference has to be competent.
Even when he did things, competence at lower level was (incorrectly) assumed.
Now it requires great insight or experience to realize that a bureaucracy left on its own for along time is not likely to be competent. It requires some wisdom to (properly) interfere.
It was partially ineffective, not precisely targeted, and administered somewhat incomptently (returning Americans stood in long lines for no reason.)
And, with 2020 hindsight, it should have come in December. BUT THEN WHAT?
In short: Trump left the bureaucracy to its own devices. But it would have required a very independently minded president (who also had at least half-good judgment) to have done anything different. An independently acting president (even one who appoints someone new or a committee) risks making things worse, or (if there are no original minds among the new appointees to the committee or whatever) aocomplishing nothing.
All the experts were telling him that. Partially relying on China and the WHO.
Note: Even the places that contained it somewhat (and they did it with temperature taking, testing, tracing and isolation) have experienced a rebound from returning citizens coming from places like the UK. (not China since there are practically no new travelers arriving from China, even in Hong Kong.)
You mean Mike Pence wasn’t good at that?
Being slow on distribution was the work of the (unsupervised and un-interfered with enough) bureaucracy and a national stockpile is so crazy it has to be based on something he was told.)
You know what else is wrong?
Having an inconsistent timetable between the anti-infection precautions and the economic disruption.
Of course, his medical advisers wanted to minimize the amount of time they would last.
He does that every day. Even if there are a lot of commercials.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:30 amTime123 (ae9d89) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:10 am
Do you see me making any of these arguments? Have I argued that he has unlimited power? If we expand beyond this thread; when you and I were discussing what Trump could have done sooner I was arguing that he couldn’t have done things much sooner because no one would have gone along with it, i.e. he didn’t have the power to do it unilaterally.
I’ve been silent on those issues because I agree with you and there’s no point in repeating things other people have said better.
frosty (f27e97) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:34 am97. The co-ordinated effort among states is mostly for deciding how and when to re-open. New York’s Governor Andrew Cuomo doesn’t want things to depend on state lines (but lines might be drawn in each state somewhere else,)
Now Trump is making things up about the powers of the presidency. He’s at the stage where he is just bluffing. Originally maybe he thought he did have the power – and, again, the economic timetable they’re using is short. And not consistent with the most likely stop-the-chain-of-infection timetable.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:35 am@101 Fair enough.
Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:40 amHeh, President Trump is yanking the Governors chains and they are dancing his dance.
At once the Democrats and their Media butt-snorkelers are proving that their ridiculous blame-storming over Trump “not acting soon enough” is BS. If he doesn’t have the authority to act now, he sure as hell didn’t have the authority to act then!
Plus, I love that we are FINALLY having a national discussion on the (truly) limited powers of the Presidency. Hopefully, everyone will remember it the next time we make a mistake and hire a Democrat as President.
MJN1957 (28ce29) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:47 amSammy, Trump runs the bureaucracy. I can see cutting him some slack for what it does day to day. But once the person in charge knows that something out of the ordinary is coming I expect them to dig in. A reasonable action in January would have been a deep dive / review of our preparedness and plans for CV-19. A good leader might have started piloting things on a smaller scale to ensure that the tools and systems were in good working order. If it’s Pence’s fault that material distribution was messed up, then replace him or get him some help. But either way the results are on Trump.
Walking in front of a camera in late March to say “Hey just found out we really weren’t ready for this and I blame my predecessor.” Is just pure failure.
Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:48 amNope. Having limited power isn’t the same thing as no power.
Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:48 amIf he doesn’t have the authority to act now, he sure as hell didn’t have the authority to act then!
That must be the talking-point of the day of the T-rump-sucking media.
Duh Donald didn’t have the authority to impose a shelter-in-place order in any state. He doesn’t have the authority to lift one, either.
He certainly DID have ample authority to do various things he did too late, not at all, or badly. I, of course, include the vile corrupt-o-crats he’s chosen as his toadies.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/14/2020 @ 7:13 amI’m seeing what I call the Trump Devotional of the Day from a lot of reliable Trump supporters. It’s pretty irrational but that’s OK.
It would be tiresome if I didn’t see the terrific opportunity here. Trump’s giving the caricature of big government overreach right now. He’s picking a fight he’s already lost. He thinks picking fights is how to manage the media, and I guess he’s right, but it’s also going to condition Americans towards a federalist attitude. I hope this generates some major lawsuits.
Relax Frosty. No need to attack everyone from your lofty objectivity perch. Stay 6 ft away from those strawmen!
Dustin (c56600) — 4/14/2020 @ 7:25 amDo you not think Trump’s a democrat? Why not, specifically? Spending? Being a friend to Putin? Being a wimp on foreign policy? Massive power grabs? Decades of supporting the Clintons, Schumer, Weiner, Pelosi, etc? Hardball NYC real estate politics?
He’s a democrat who said mean things about other democrats for a few years. That’s doesn’t make him much of a conservative.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/14/2020 @ 7:32 am**Does the federal government license insurance companies?
Obamacare says YES.
**Why then do states require insurance companies to obtain licenses, receive permission to sell policies in their states and regulate their rates?
What does that have to do with the question? All of those things are also subject to federal regulation.
**Does the federal government license teachers and schools?
The Department of Education says YES.
**No. States license teachers and schools.
But if they don’t run according to federal regulations and rules, they get no federal funds. No state goes without.
**Does the federal government license drivers, cars and trucks?
Truck drivers are subject to federal rules.
**Only because they are interstate commerce. States license passenger car and their drivers.
So long as they meet the Real ID standards, otherwise those licenses aren’t good for much other than driving. The feds also built and own the Interstates, some of which never leave the state (e.g. I-405), and there are strings attached there, too.
**Does the federal government license doctors, nurses, hospitals and clinics?
And again HHS says you betcha.
**No. Doctors, nurses, and hospitals are licensed by states, unless the hospitals receive federal funds.
Like Medicare and Medicaid. Since hospitals must accept all patients regardless of their ability to pay (also a federal requirement), no hospital refuses those programs.
The also tell farmers what to grow, people what to smoke, doctors what to prescribe, broadcast stations what is forbidden, and ports what goods to admit.
**That is a complete exaggeration. Farmers can grow what they want, and smokers can smoke anything they want. I agree broadcasters should be able to broadcast anything they want. Ports can import anytthing they want, subject to import duties and legal products.
Farmers cannot grow wheat if the government wheat price management programs says they can’t. Similar rules for other crops. Not even for personal consumption. See Wickard. Or Raich. Ports can only import things the government allows, as you admit. Some legal things cannot be imported, or have ruinous duties (e.g. sugar) and some legal things cannot be exported.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/14/2020 @ 7:40 amI really really dislike the degree to which the federal government has stretched its powers since the collapse of the Lochner era consensus and FDR’s radical schemes. I would happily see much power return to the states, but it seems only the wrong power is returning.
California, for example, bans gasoline unless it meets a state standard, even though there is an EPA clear-air formula that works as well. The power to regulate intrastate commerce to functionally exclude other state’s products generally results in local monopolies and much higher prices. California limit on in-state refineries basically give those companies significant profits that would be unavailable if they produced the EPA-formula gas. The Greens and oil companies are in cahoots to drive up the price of gas in CA. I think they are now under $3/gallon for the first time in a decade.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 4/14/2020 @ 7:58 amAt face value…Trump’s POTUS power “as total authority” bothered me quite a bit.
I immediately reminds me of an uncouth version of Obama’s “I have a phone and pen”.
However, I think part of it is that he’s getting bad information from his people here as well.
I think Andrew McCarthy nailed it in his open op-ed
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/492548-wholl-decide-when-we-can-reopen-its-not-who-you-might-think
In other words, Trump talks a lot of nonsense crap, but his actions are generally kosher.
But… man… I’ll tell you what, I’m TOTAL getting a kick out of the liberals/media’s new found appreciate to the 10th Amendment.
If Trump’s existence in the Oval Office incurs more appreciation of the 10th Amendment in bipartisan manner…then, hell, he accidentally did something amazing.
whembly (c30c83) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:06 am“I’ve got enough years in that I’m senior in my position and I’ve got enough years left that the economy will have time to recover from almost anything he does to it.”
In the private sector (unless unionized), employees get paid and are valued for their performance/productivity, not how old they are.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:06 amKevin,
You have done a fine job of demonstrating that Congress has extensive ability to regulate interstate commerce. You have not shown how Trump could override the public health orders of the governors of states which reserve their police powers.
Leviticus (cdf0fe) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:08 amTrump this morning:
Dana (0feb77) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:21 am116: Yeah, that’s a big problem. His staff need to knock some sense into him about that.
whembly (c30c83) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:25 am105. Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 6:48 am
o, he doesn’t. He’s in charge, but he doesn’t run it.
What usually happens is that the bureaucracy runs on its own, and they bring a question to his attention when they want him to sign something, or when two bureaucracies are divided on a matter on and he needs to decide between them, or when Congress asses a law or is proposing to pass a law, and he needs to review it.
Not that this is ideal at all. I didn’t like it when President Gerald Ford worked that way – and didn’t see what was wrong with it.
It is the rare, rare, politician who pays attention to complaints or observations from ordinary, non-expert people (against the civil servants) about the government not working properly. Bernie Sanders did, by the way, when he was mayor of Burlington, Vermont. That’s how he got elected in the first place. He was a gadfly before he got elected.
Also this was somewhat detached from his almost doctrinaire theoretical socialism and his foreign policy. And it was local issues, where there wasn’t much ideology to echo.
I don’t see much of this now with him. (good criticism or menton of things that need taking care of.)
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:42 am.
that’s on him.
Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:46 am@115
Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:46 amWow he really sounds desperate.
Governor Cuomo press briefing (mayor De Blasio was earlier)
He says re-opening it does’t work unless it is coordinated with neighboring states.
He’s also explaining federalism and the constitution. He cited and put on screen quote from the federalist papers.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:50 am@ frosty, #88:
Properly delimited, both these statements can be true at the same time.
I endorse Time123’s more complete response to you @ #90.
Demosthenes (7fae81) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:56 amYou have done a fine job of demonstrating that Congress has extensive ability to regulate interstate commerce. You have not shown how Trump could override the public health orders of the governors of states which reserve their police power
He can override them to the extent they interfere with interstate commerce, which includes the so-called Dormant Commerce Clause.
Let’s say a governor decides to order certain non-essential businesses closed. Someone in the next state wants to supply those very goods or services, by driving over the border and selling them. The president could say that is an interference with interstate commerce beyond your powers, and I am invoking federal authority to allow that interstate commerce, and if need be, call out the national guard to enforce it.
Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:57 amSF: he doesn’t. He’s in charge, but he doesn’t run it
Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:46 am.
I don;t think any oresident has since Franklin Delano Roossevelt in the 1930s, and he ran it through appointees. And tat’s becase he crated it.
He made both good and bad appointments.
During World War II, he put someone called Jesse Jones in charge of getting a lot of things done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_H._Jones
https://www.pbs.org/jessejones/jesse_bio3.htm
Now maybe he made bad decisions, but he also made sure things happened.
The federal response to coronavirus doesn’t have a Jesse Jones on it.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:02 amLet’s say a governor decides to order certain non-essential businesses closed. Someone in the next state wants to supply those very goods or services, by driving over the border and selling them. The president could say that is an interference with interstate commerce beyond your powers…
Not according to the precedent set in the 1793 epidemic. Under normal conditions, sure. But not in an emergency.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:09 amTime123:
First, does he know something out of the ordinary (or requiring some changes and/or a look at things) is happening?
Because the bureaucracy will tell him they can handle it, at least for now. (they just wanted Trmp to be a bit prepared to sign something maybe)
To dig in, or ask someone new or several new people to dig in, (without asking for a consensus – in fact demanding minority opinions and dissents on at least some questions, or at some level of detail – there will always be some) you have to assume a lack of competence.
That’s not easy in our modern day.
This requires real understanding of bureaucracy. The problem is they all (whoever is president) inherited the bureaucracy and they don’t see its limitations. Anyone’s limitations in planning for the possible but unforeseeable..
Also, the permanent government is expected to dig in. But they do stupid things in planning. The smaller their world, or their bubble, the more.
In some other counties, maybe, what technocrats do works. Actually, I’d say it’s about 50-50
And I’ll tell you this: Shouting “science” doesn’t help matters. Trump was right to get involved with hydroxtchloroquine. The problem was mainly that he limited himself to that (and got alittle strident)
He didn’t seek out dissenters and innovators.
Now there’s another thing – there;s a huge White House staff. They could dig in. But they don’t either for the most part.
And it wouldn’t have to be by Trump himself. It could be by someone he appoints. But Mike Pence was not up to the job. He, too, did not expect incompetence. Or, to put it another way, expected competence. That they know more than he does, etc and his job is only administrative.
???
It;s actually faster to send out stuff – if sme f it doesn’t work you’ll find ot soon enough and meanwhile what worked, people got.
And what I would say – it should be possible to find out – just by asking questions – whether or not some tests work. If something is wrong, there will be people who know that. And if there’s something wrong with the criticism of the people who say something is wrong, there will be people who know that
Pence was too trusting. Yes, in away this is on Trump.
I believe in high standards. But we don’t get to see this much.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:15 amIf everybody fails, or almost everybody, can you truly ttribute failure to the person who happened to be at the helm that day? To say someone personally fails, don’t you have to assume that someone else wouldn’t?
It’s a systemic problem.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:17 amLet’s see what people are really worried about these days.
Gryph (08c844) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:19 amTrump says his ‘authority is total.’ Constitutional experts have ‘no idea’ where he got that.
When President Trump was asked during Monday’s news briefing what authority he has to reopen the country, he didn’t hesitate to answer. “I have the ultimate authority,” the president responded, cutting off the reporter who was speaking.
Trump later clarified his position further, telling reporters, “When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total and that’s the way it’s got to be. … It’s total. The governors know that.”
The local leaders, Trump said, “can’t do anything without the approval of the president of the United States.” …..
While the president appears convinced he is the only one empowered to make the critical determination, his extraordinary assertions of authority over the states astounded legal scholars, leaving them wondering, as they have before about Trump’s broad claims, where on earth he got them.
“You won’t find that written in the Federalist Papers anywhere,” Robert Chesney, a law professor at the University of Texas at Austin, told The Washington Post.
Not only does the power Trump asserted have no basis in reality, experts said, but it’s also completely antithetical to the Constitution, the concept of federalism and separation of powers — whether during a time of emergency or not.
“This isn’t ancient Rome where there’s a special law that says in the event of an emergency all the regular rules are thrown out the window and one person, whom they called the dictator, gets to make the rules for the duration of the emergency or for a period of time,” Chesney said. “We don’t have a system like that.”
On Twitter, Steve Vladeck, another professor at the University of Texas School of Law, rebutted Trump’s “authority is total” remark.
“Nope,” Vladeck wrote. “That would be the literal definition of a *totalitarian* government.”
That would be the literal definition of a *totalitarian* government—which our traditions, our Constitution, and our values all rightly and decisively reject.
Various Democrats and Republicans appeared to be in agreement on this basic democratic principle. Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) tweeted the full text of the 10th Amendment, which says any powers not specifically delegated to the federal government in the Constitution are reserved to the states. The federal government, she said, “does not have absolute authority.”
Josh Blackman, a constitutional law professor at the South Texas College of Law Houston, told The Post that if Trump were to call up Cuomo tomorrow and order him to send everyone back to work, Cuomo could easily tell Trump to “get lost, and that would be his prerogative.”
Blackman said he had “no idea” what law or legal precedent Trump believed granted him such sweeping authority, because none do. He said there is a long history of presidents using “creative arguments” to assert executive authority during wartime or emergencies — but contrary to Pence’s assertion, there is not a long history of presidents getting away with nearly unfettered authority. There is no “emergency clause” in the Constitution for presidential power, he said.
……
…..Vladeck stressed in an email to The Post that while presidents “do and should have broad powers to respond to crises, broad is not the same as ‘total.’ ”
In this case, he said, it’s critical to remember that Trump never issued any kind of national lockdown order like other countries did. Trump thus cannot reopen something he never shut down. Vladeck said he does not believe that Trump would have had the authority to do that anyway. At most, he said, Trump might have been able to ban interstate travel under the Public Health Service Act.
“But for better or worse, the president has left most of the big decisions to local and state authorities. That makes it only that much harder for him to try to override them,” Vladeck said.
……
The federal system created by the framers of the Constitution divided power between the national and state governments. While the Constitution’s supremacy clause means acts of Congress can override the laws of states, the same does not apply to the president acting unilaterally.
As a result, various police powers, as well as authority over functions such as zoning and regulation of business, belong to the states because the Constitution does not grant them to the federal government. The states, in turn, are constrained by the constitutional grant of the power to regulate interstate commerce, for example, and the Bill of Rights.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:21 am…….
Gryph (08c844) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:19 am
You keep ignoring the fact that even if there was not a single shutdown order, not even a single limited one, the economy would take a serious hit. Businesses were shutting down or limiting hours because customers were not coming in even before any orders went out.And the rest of the world, except Sweden, is also shutting itself down. Can’t sell to customers who aren’t buying, right? And they weren’t.
Kishnevi (8f5d8c) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:29 amWhile the percentage of people who are at least somewhat worried about the virus has risen over the last few weeks, it still does not match the number who feel the same degree of worry about the coronavirus’s effect on the U.S. economy.
Poor, pitiful Gryph can’t even report honestly. People are worried about both the virus and the economy.
Duh.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:36 amI’m not sure that even the people whom people named in response to Simon Jester’s question would have been competent. Certainly not Mitt Romney.
Andrew Cuomo was also reluctant to shut things down – but more ready than Mayor Bill de Blasio. Andrew Cuomo informally cancelled the St. Patrick’s day parade. (He called up the parade organizer. It was not done by any kind of formal executive order)
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:41 amNot according to the precedent set in the 1793 epidemic.
Perhaps you can enlighten us. There was a yellow fever epidemic in Philadelphia in that year. What precedents were established about federal vs. state power?
Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:50 amI already enlightened you.
Read up-thread. Or look up the rather good Wiki article about the epidemic, which has a bunch of interesting parallels to the present.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:59 amSF
I would say he clearly knew on or before he issued his ineffective travel ban for China.
Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:16 am134. Trump was more interested in being cruel to people than in being effective.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:23 amFlorida Designates Pro Wrestling ‘Essential Business’
World Wrestling Entertainment resumed its live televised shows Monday at its facility in Orlando without fans present. After weeks of airing taped pro wrestling matches, WWE received permission last week with a signed order from Florida’s Emergency Management Director. The order says “employees at a professional sports and media production with a national audience” are exempt from a stay-at-home order as long as “the location is closed to the general public.”
The order was signed April 9. At a press conference Monday, Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings said when Florida Governor Ron DeSantis ordered a statewide lockdown April 1, at first, WWE was not exempted. “With some conversation with the governor’s office regarding the governor’s order, they were deemed an essential business,” Demings said. “And so therefore, they were allowed to remain open.”
The order opens the way for UFC and other professional sports to resume production and live events in Florida, as long as they’re done without an audience.
The WWE events are resuming after the online news site Pro Wrestling Sheet reported one of those involved with the production’s on-air staff tested positive for the coronavirus.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:29 am…….
It’s interesting – and very amusing – to witness liberal Democrats champion federalism.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:34 amI would say he clearly knew on or before he issued his ineffective travel ban for China.
The experts seem to agree that the travel ban was effective…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:36 am129. Kishnevi (8f5d8c) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:29 am
Broadway theatre owners actually requested of Governor Cuomo that he shut them down.
He did that by banning all gatherings of 500 people or more as of 5 pm Thursday, March 12. That was almost the first mandatory shutdown order in New York.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:38 amPoor, pitiful Gryph can’t even report honestly. People are worried about both the virus and the economy.
Duh.
It’s Jackalope Day all over again…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:39 amOK. So, all the reporters asking him why he didn’t shut down states two weeks ago, didn’t know what they were talking about. And so were the D’s blaming Trump for not shutting down Florida and Texas. Thanks!
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:44 amKevin M @110-
None of which has anything to do with the Presidential authority that Trump is claiming. See my post at #128 and the and here and here on what Trump can’t and the states can.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:47 amAs with Jonah Golberg, most the never-trumper comments on this topic are worthless, since they start with the assumption that Trump is claiming something he isn’t. Its an old tactic. Exaggerate what your opponent says, then attack him for something he didn’t say. Its done with Trump on an almost daily basis.
Blah,blahing about “muh Constitution” during this CV pandemic is meaningless. trump has declared an emergency under laws passed by congress. What do those laws say? everything else is wind.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:48 amPeople who don’t f*** up don’t need to worry about blame. Getting it or shifting it. Is anybody blaming the president of Switzerland for anything?
nk (1d9030) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:50 amThe center-right is are always gullible fools when it comes to the constitution. They don’t seem to realize that it doesn’t matter what’s in the Constitution, because its what the Judges say it is. Notice how the ACLU isn’t getting involved in the Government shutdowns? Gee, I thought they were all worked up about civil liberties. Where are all those state AG’s that are always suing Trump because of “Muh Constitution”? The fact is, these types throw their principles aside whenever the Government does something they like. Of course, they always have some BS reason for it.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:51 am#144 that’s why Pelosi and Biden are guilty of everything they’ve been accused of. If they hadn’t F’d up, they wouldn’t be criticized. Thanks!
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:52 amCan you dig up an actual quote or two? Because I suspect what they said wasn’t what you describing.
I’ll repeat it again.
It’s fair to blame Trump for not effectively using the power the President actually has.
It’s also fair to blame Trump for claiming powers the president doesn’t have.
Look up thread for my previous comment if you’d like to see some of the things he should have done that are within the power of the presidency.
Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/14/2020 @ 11:04 amNotice how the ACLU isn’t getting involved in the Government shutdowns? Gee, I thought they were all worked up about civil liberties.
If you were a reader, you’d be able to answer your own vacant questions.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/14/2020 @ 11:15 amKenneth P. Vogel
@kenvogel
·
South Dakota is home to one of the largest single coronavirus clusters anywhere in the U.S.
Its governor, @KristiNoem, has refused to issue a stay-at-home order, saying such orders reflected a “herd mentality,” & noting “South Dakota is not New York City”
https://washingtonpost.com/
_ _
Joshua Zeitz
@JoshuaMZeitz
Viruses don’t read Friedrich Hayek. They don’t have a well articulated understanding of limited government. But they do travel to rural communities and to red states.
__ _
TakingHayekSeriouslyFirecracker
@FriedrichHayek
·
Hayek endorses strong government actual during an emergence. The one who doesn’t read Hayek is you.
_ _
Kurtis Fechtmeyer
harkin (b64479) — 4/14/2020 @ 12:18 pm@Fechtmeyer
·
Pro tip Joshua: the. reason. for. limited. government. is. to. do. fewer. essential. things. so. as. to. do. those. few. things. well. Less than 5% of CDC’s budget was being spent on emerging infectious diseases … you know the “disease” part of Center for *Disease* Control.
__ _
And so were the D’s blaming Trump for not shutting down Florida and Texas
Don’t know about Texas, but here in Florida DeSantis said he issued his stay at home order only after talking with Trump.
So the Democratic talking point does have at least some truth to it.
Kishnevi (f12dcb) — 4/14/2020 @ 12:39 pm
Time123 (ae9d89) — 4/14/2020 @ 12:52 pmA weak but boastful president.
Two cheers for Liz Cheney.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/14/2020 @ 12:55 pmTrump confirmed unhinged:
This in the middle of a pandemic claiming the lives of almost 2000 Americans every day.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/14/2020 @ 1:01 pm@113 In any sector if a clueless person insults your job performance, you know what kind of ocean adjacent bird they are.
Nic (896fdf) — 4/14/2020 @ 1:06 pmGovernors, get your states testing programs & apparatus perfected. Be ready, big things are happening. No excuses! The Federal Government is there to help. We are testing more than any country in the World. Also, gear up with Face Masks! –Duh Donald
Nope. Not even close. We’re WAY behind many nations per capita.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/14/2020 @ 1:07 pmAnti-malarial drug touted by Trump was subject of CIA warning to employees
The CIA has privately advised its workforce that taking an anti-malarial drug touted by President Trump and some of his supporters as a promising treatment for the novel coronavirus has potentially dangerous side effects, including sudden death.
The warning, featured on a website for CIA employees with questions related to the spread of covid-19, came in late March after public discussion — and promotion by the president — that hydroxychloroquine, administered in concert with the antibiotic azithromycin, might prove effective against the disease.
…….
A CIA website for employees with questions about the coronavirus addressed the topic on March 27, noting there had been media reports suggesting the drug “has activity against the COVID-19 virus.”
“At this point, the drug is not recommended to be used by patients except by medical professionals prescribing it as part of ongoing investigational studies. There are potentially significant side effects, including sudden cardiac death, associated with hydroxychloroquine and its individual use in patients need to be carefully selected and monitored by a health care professional,” the answer said, before adding in bold type: “Please do not obtain this medication on your own.”
A CIA spokesman declined to comment about internal workforce communications. The advice was posted as a response after an employee asked whether they should take the drug without a prescription.
The warning came about a week after the president first touted the drug at a White House news conference. “I think it could be, based on what I see, it could be a game changer,” Trump said.
……
Experts have cautioned about side effects, such as heart arrhythmia, which can be fatal.
A recent study in Brazil of chloroquine, which is similar to hydroxychloroquine, was halted early because a number of test subjects developed dangerous heart problems.
Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, has said the data on hydroxychloroquine’s effectiveness against the virus is “really just at best suggestive.”
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 1:33 pm……….
Fauci: ‘We’re not there yet’ on key steps to reopen economy
Dr. Anthony Fauci, the government’s top infectious disease expert, said Tuesday the U.S. does not yet have the critical testing and tracing procedures needed to begin reopening the nation’s economy, adding a dose of caution to increasingly optimistic projections from the White House.
“We have to have something in place that is efficient and that we can rely on, and we’re not there yet,” Fauci said in an interview with The Associated Press.
Fauci’s comments come as President Donald Trump and others in the administration weigh how quickly businesses can reopen and Americans can get back to work weeks after the fast-spreading coronavirus essentially halted the U.S. economy. Trump has floated the possibility of reopening some areas by May 1 and said he could announce recommendations as soon as this week.
Fauci said a May 1 target is “a bit overly optimistic” for many areas of the country. Any easing off the strict social-distancing rules in place in much of the country would have to occur on a “rolling” basis, not all at once, he said, reflecting the ways COVID-19 struck different parts of the country at different times.
Among Fauci’s top concerns: that there will be new outbreaks in locations where social distancing has eased, but public health officials don’t yet have the capabilities to rapidly test for the virus, isolate any new cases and track down everyone that an infected person came into contact with.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 1:41 pm……..
I saw it in a front page New York Times article.
I saw it in a New York Post column (by someone who was critical of Dr Fauci)
Now this.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 1:33 pm
Another thing either the CIA or the media got wrong. Probably the CIA. The Wasinton Post s just well, relying on sources who are peddling disinformation. I don;t know who is doing this, but it’s gone on so much somebody has to be doing it.
Chloroquine is not another word for hydroxychloroquine which the two newspaper articles seemed to assume) and, while it is “similar” to hydroxychloroquine, as the Washington Post says,
there id at least one key difference:
Hydroxychloroquine doesn’t have these heart arrhythmia effects
I’m at the point where I am almost angry, and I want to find out who is behind this disinformation campaign against hydroxychloroquine. It’s a real PR slander campaign. Enough!
That it would be a drug company sounds a little bit too simple. I don’t know that there would be one that is s unethical. Some company or country with another angle? I do;t have any idea yet, but something is going on. This is not accidental
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 2:50 pmOne semi-caveat: The disease Covid-19, has these bad effects on the heart. Many people died at home. (from the extra CO2 in the blood?)
https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-cardiac-calls-jump-in-the-city-20200407-tzlxcqaqs5a2flpnlmhsffnyjm-story.html
So there you are:
From 25 in March 2019, to 45 by March 20, 2020, to 241 by April 5.
These people were almost certainly mostly not taking hydroxychloroquine.
They on;y have wild theories as to why – and this fact of cardiac arrest (which can only be caused by Covid-19) is being ignored by Dr. Fauci. (and of course therefore by Trump.)
More:
But I guess that’s all anecdotal.
Yes it’s true that this virus did not exist in human being six months ago, as Mayor Bill de Blasio said today, but it did exist for a few months, and that’s enough to tell some things.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 2:52 pm157. RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 1:41 pm
he problem is that the economic timrtsble ad the stop-the-chain-of-infection timetable are not in accord with each other – and Fauci his not leveled with Donald Trump, maybe because he was afraid that Donald Trump or others would reject the closures out of hand, and many people would die.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:07 pmSide effects and precautions of Hydroxychloroquine:
Yeah, let’s pass it out like candy.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:08 pmFAA bars active pilots from taking chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to prevent coronavirus
Pilots are prohibited within two days of flying from experimenting with two yet unproven medications to prevent coronavirus infection, the Federal Aviation Administration has determined.
“Use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine to prevent coronavirus infection is disqualifying while on the medication and for 48 hours after the last dose before reporting for flight or other safety related duties,” a new FAA directive says.
The text was shared with CNN by the Allied Pilots Association, which represents pilots at American Airlines. The directive was signed by Dr. Penny Giovanetti, the director of the Medical Specialties Division within the Office of Aerospace Medicine.
…….
The FAA said in a statement to CNN that it “takes a conservative approach” in reviewing medications and the ability of pilots “to do their jobs safely.” The agency sets health standards for pilots and requires each possess a medical certification of physical fitness.
“Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine were both reviewed by the FAA Federal Air Surgeon when they entered the market and have long been considered generally incompatible for those performing safety related aviation duties,” the agency said.
FAA does allow limited exceptions for pilots with arthritis to take small doses of hydroxychloroquine. It says pilots who take the medication but meet a number of other criteria may take an eye examination and receive a special certification.
The FAA guidance said there is “no satisfactory scientific evidence that use of these medications decreases the severity of the virus” and noted “there is no standardized protocol,” such as how much and how frequently to take the drug.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:12 pm…….
ClownNewsNetwork
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:18 pmSide effects of Aspirin (Oral):
COMMON side effects
If experienced, these tend to have a Less Severe expression
Conditions Of Excess Stomach Acid Secretion
Heartburn
Irritation Of The Stomach Or Intestines
Nausea
Stomach Cramps
Vomiting
RARE side effects
If experienced, these tend to have a Severe expression
A Decrease In Platelet Clotting
A Rupture In The Wall Of The Stomach Or Intestine
A Significant Type Of Allergic Reaction Called Anaphylaxis
A Type Of Allergic Reaction Called Angioedema
A Type Of Blood Disorder Where The Red Blood Cells Burst Called Hemolytic Anemia
A Type Of Kidney Inflammation Called Interstitial Nephritis
Anemia
Bleeding
Bleeding Of The Stomach Or Intestines
Bleeding Within The Skull
Blistering Of The Skin
Blood Coming From Anus
Bronchospasm
Damage To The Liver And Inflammation
Decreased Blood Platelets
Hives
Inflammation Of The Skin Due To An Allergy
Large Purple Or Brown Skin Blotches
Low Levels Of White Blood Cells
Seizures
Stomach Or Intestinal Ulcer
Trouble Breathing
Wheezing
See more at… https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-1082-3/aspirin-oral/aspirin-oral/details/list-sideeffects
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:29 pm@164-
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:35 pmJust don’t take ibuprofen.
And there is exactly as much positive data for acetylsalicylic acid to treat CV-19 as HCQ and CQ.
Pepsi is also as effective a treatment of CV-19, not Coca Cola though, at least from the scientific data.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:39 pmAll medications have side effects, even common aspirin.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/14/2020 @ 3:48 pmSome side effects are rare, and might be linked to deficiencies in diet.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 4:09 pmConvalescent plasma has started to be used, a little.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 4:10 pmNew York greatly raised the death toll (they said they were planning to) by including estimated excess deaths during this period.
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/14/2020 @ 4:11 pmAfter governors push back on Trump’s claim that he “calls the shots,” he sounds a more cooperative tone
A day after President Trump claimed that he had “total” authority to reopen the American economy himself — a combative position that was widely challenged by legal scholars and governors from both parties — the president said on Tuesday that he would work with the states.
“I will be speaking to all 50 governors very shortly, and I will then be authorizing each individual governor of each individual state to implement a reopening,” Mr. Trump said during a briefing at the White House, adding that it would be “at a time and in a manner as most appropriate” for each state.
“The day will be very close,” Mr. Trump said, holding out the possibility that some states without large outbreaks could reopen before May 1.
Mr. Trump said he would consult with business and health leaders on when and how to reopen the country’s economy, then read from a long list of names of labor leaders and chief executives whom he said he would be speaking with in the next few days. But it was not clear that the dozens of people he named had agreed to serve on his economic task force.
His insistence Monday that “the president calls the shots” was widely rejected by governors, leading several to compare him to a would-be king. On Tuesday, the president sounded a more collaborative note. “The federal government will be watching them very closely, and we’ll be there to help,” he said.
Earlier in the day the president had taken to Twitter to liken governors making their own plans to mutineers. Governors in both parties questioned his understanding of the relationship between the federal government and the states. ……..
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 4/14/2020 @ 4:28 pm“I will then be authorizing each individual governor of each individual state to implement a reopening”
I also authorize each governor to implement their plans as they see fit.
Davethulhu (57a623) — 4/14/2020 @ 4:31 pmMe three.
DRJ (15874d) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:00 pmThe triumvirate is unanimous and a civil war has been averted.
nk (1d9030) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:13 pmHere we go again. The false paraphrase of Trump’s position, and then the false charge that he’s ‘backing off” a position that he never held. Trump made it quite clear at the Briefing yesterday, that while he as the authority to close states and presumably reopen them, he was going to work with the Governors. Today, he repeated that statement, and emphasized that “Lots of Governors” are ready to reopen, but he won’t let them, if he doesn’t think the situation warrants it. OTOH, he isn’t going to push any state to reopen, unless the Governor thinks its ready. Trump says he’s been erring on the side of caution all through the crisis and will continue to do so.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:32 pmHe’s a weak but boastful president. I suppose his base will buy his bluster and see it as strength.
Time123 (53ef45) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:47 pmHow very Trumpy
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:48 pmBoy, coming here to set all of us constitution-studying dummies straight must be such a burden for you!
What a service we all owe you, what with trying to set our feet on the true path to T-rump worship! PBUTH
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/14/2020 @ 5:51 pmChloroquine is not another word for hydroxychloroquine
Thank you. Today NPR had a big story about Chloroquine and its checkered history. The report. including a snippet from a doctor saying “We shouldn’t give people false hope”, kept implying this was the antimalarial drug being used to combat the Corona virus The NPR story NEVER mentioned that Doctors are prescribing hydroxychloroquine – and that’s the drug that Trump was talking about.
Evidently to the MSM “Similar” means “Exactly the same”.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:01 pmAs he stated today, Trump will not force scaredy-cat Governors to reopen. That would be terrible politics. Instead, he would let the Governors take the heat for keeping their states closed when Trump and the CDC say its Ok to go back to business. And when the states do open, based on the Governors OK, they and not Trump, will be responsible for any deaths.
Because you can’t say. “State Governors make the decision when to reopen, and then blame any ensuing deaths on Trump.”
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:06 pm“Pilots are prohibited within two days of flying from experimenting with two yet unproven medications to prevent coronavirus infection, the Federal Aviation Administration has determined.
Use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine to prevent coronavirus infection is disqualifying while on the medication and for 48 hours after the last dose before reporting for flight or other safety related duties,” a new FAA directive says.”
This is a rather odd statement. First, these drugs should be prescribed by a doctor. And describing a prescription from a doctor as ‘experimenting’ is rather weird. Secondly, taking these drugs for ANY reason should be disqualifying. Or is it saying you can take hydroxychloroquine for malaria, but not for CV? Again, very weird.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:10 pmTo the liberal/left hydroxychloroquine is a “Conservative” or “Trumpian” drug. So the liberal/left and never trumpers hate it.
Man, that is weird. But its the way they write and behave.
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:13 pmDoctor Drumpfelscnitzel was saying chloroquine for quite a while until the backlash switched him to hydroxychloroquine. He is a very smart man, he had an uncle who went to MIT.
Sister bought some chloroquine
She got it at the pet store
Brother gave her zinc sun block
She’d never used before
She put the zinc in the chloroquine
Zinc in the chloroquine
Drank it all up
Zinc in the chloroquine
Put the zinc in the chloroquine
Drink it all up
Then she called her doctor
Doctor!
Doctor! What can I take
To relieve this bellyache
Doctor!
Doctor! What can I take
To relieve this bellyache
Put the zinc in the chloroquine
The zinc in the chloroquine
Put the zinc in the chloroquine
Drink it all up
Put the zinc in the chloroquine
nk (1d9030) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:17 pmDrink it all up
And call me in the morning
Ocean, you lie so often that you don’t even to seem to notice. Is it a mental thing?
Where, oh where, would anyone think they heard Trump say it. Hmm, I wonder if things like transcripts exist.
These are just in the press briefings.
Donald Trump March 19
Donald Trump: (11:49)
Donald Trump: (01:05:22)
Donald Trump: (01:15:32)
Donald Trump March 19
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:25 pmDonald Trump: (04:38)
Illinois governor says he’s ‘given up’ on coronavirus help from the Trump administration
nk (1d9030) — 4/14/2020 @ 8:34 pmWell, of course he did.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:16 pmNothing like buying somebody’s vote with their own children’s money. But don’t tell that to the dung beetles. To them, it tastes great.
nk (1d9030) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:32 pmBut wasn’t the GOP saying ‘never forget Pelosi delayed the stimulus!!!’?
Dustin (c56600) — 4/14/2020 @ 9:32 pmHow many people are just waiting for that check because they are in dire straits, but now they have to wait for it because Trump is such a raging egomaniac that he has to have his name printed on every check. The only reason for doing that is just to feed his ego. What’s funny is, he really believes people will sing his praises as if this was a gift from his personal bank account. He’s hoping the hoi polloi will show their gratitude come November. The President wants you to see him as the indispensable savior of our suffering nation.
Dana (0feb77) — 4/14/2020 @ 10:22 pmJust imagine if Obama had done any ONE of the things the OHSOAJ has done – claiming the president has “absolute authority” to “overrule” governors, insisting on putting his name on disaster relief or unemployment checks, dancing in conga lines and playing golf while a pandemic was raging across the country, etc.
As Allahpundit said yesterday, Sean Hannity would have spontaneously combusted.
Dave (1bb933) — 4/14/2020 @ 11:05 pmWhat’s funny is, he really believes people will sing his praises as if this was a gift from his personal bank account.
The people who have paintings of dogs playing poker will.
nk (1d9030) — 4/15/2020 @ 12:16 amMost people will be getting their “checks” through direct deposit. Trump’s “name on a paper check” is irrelevant. Happy now?
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/15/2020 @ 6:01 amChecks usually have the name of Treasury secretary. Why shouldn’t trump’s name be on it?
rcocean (1a839e) — 4/15/2020 @ 6:02 amWhy shouldn’t trump’s name be on it? Trump’s “name on a paper check” is irrelevant.
Which is it, cultist?
And the reasonssssss the Orange Raccoon’s name shouldn’t be on it start with the delay.
You really take sycophant to new lows.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/15/2020 @ 6:10 amGovernment checks have the signature of the Treasury Secretary because somebody has to sign them. The name on the account is The United States of America. It’s America’s money, not Trump’s money. Nancy Pelosi has more of a right than Trump to have her name on the checks since under the Constitution all money bills (that’s “bill” as in law, not “bill” as in dollar bill) originate in the House of Representatives.
nk (1d9030) — 4/15/2020 @ 6:23 amBecause it delayed disbursement of the money at a time when that is critical.
Time123 (d1bf33) — 4/15/2020 @ 6:24 amBecause the reason we don’t put the presidents name on gov checks is to avoid the appearance that the spending is partisan.
Trump is having the US cover Mexico’s share of the OPEC-Saudi-Russian oil deal, but he said Mexico may pay us back when it can.
Remember the campaign when Trump said Mexico was going to pay for the wall?
DRJ (15874d) — 4/15/2020 @ 6:26 amRemember the campaign when Trump said Mexico was going to pay for the wall?
Yes. When I think of that, I just laugh and laugh…!!!
Bitterly.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/15/2020 @ 6:37 am”The triumvirate is unanimous and a civil war has been averted.”
– Leviticus
I for one am relieved that cooler heads prevailed.
Leviticus (cdf0fe) — 4/15/2020 @ 6:40 amDRJ, You’re supposed to take Trump seriously but not literally. I’m old enough to remember when Republicans liked capitalism and opposed government interference in the markets.
Time123 (d1bf33) — 4/15/2020 @ 6:50 amI’m old enough to remember when Republicans liked capitalism and opposed government interference in the markets.
That was before Las Vegas casino owners could call the President on his cell phone and mention cement overcoats and shallow graves in the Nevada desert if their casinos didn’t reopen real soon.
nk (1d9030) — 4/15/2020 @ 7:07 amTrump probably wanted to enclose a signed photograph with every check but someone actually said No to that.
DRJ (15874d) — 4/15/2020 @ 7:20 amHe really is quite a big mouthed little punk. I can’t say New York values because I am praying for them these days but this isn’t a Texan.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/15/2020 @ 7:46 amHonestly I wish I could have gotten a paper check. Those will be collectible.
Dustin (c56600) — 4/15/2020 @ 7:57 am170. Actually, they only included deaths where there was no test but there was something on the death certificate about possible Covid-19. There are an additional 3,000 excess deaths between Wednesday, March 11 and Monday, April 13, some of them indirect maybe. To which you have to add automobile accidents and other things that didn’t happen. (because, even in spite of that, there were some 3,000 excess deaths in New York City.)
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/16/2020 @ 9:06 pm186.
Trump’s name is not on the check itself (even if he wanted it to be) but on a memo attached to it explaining what this is. Mnuchin rushed to do something. They say this will not delay them. They will be delayed anyway.
These paper checks are to be sent to people who filed returns in the past without bank account information. And I suppose things well be even further delayed if an account was closed since then.
People not filing returns might have to contact rhe Treasury – but I thought they resolved that
Sammy Finkelman (3bf6ea) — 4/16/2020 @ 9:11 pmIs the memo line on the check…not on the check?
Or filed via TurboTax, HR Block, etc. Supposedly there’s a going to be a process to extract your info and transfer it to the IRS, or pay the company to process it, but that’s TBD.
There’s a form on the IRS site now, SS recipients have been imported though, so they won’t have to fill it out.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/16/2020 @ 9:29 pmHard to imagine all you people hoping for the worst to occur. Stay off my lawn, haters. All my friends are working keeping America going.
mg (8cbc69) — 4/17/2020 @ 3:32 am