Magnificent Seven: Republicans Who Voted To Convict Trump Face Blowback For Having A Spine (update added)
[guest post by Dana]
Of course, this isn’t surprising. We saw Rep. Liz Cheney censured over her vote to impeach Trump, let alone seven Republican senators voting to convict him at last week’s impeachment trial. And let’s be straight about it: The Republican Party of Trump wouldn’t be what it is today if the seven members, whose loyalty to the Constitution demanded they act as they did, weren’t punished for doing the very thing the Republican Party of yore once stood for. As it is, in this new Republican party, one’s allegiance to the GOP supersedes all else-even if it requires the sacrifice of one’s conscience and a turning away from the oath to support and defend the Constitution.
As such, some Utah Republicans are proposing that Mitt Romney be censured:
Within 24 hours of that vote, a petition to censure Romney started making the rounds in some Utah Republican social media circles. You may remember the Utah Republican Party State Central Committee wanted to censure Romney after he voted to convict Trump in his first impeachment trial last year but opted instead to praise the former president.
A tipster sent along a link to the proposed censure of Romney and it’s…something. Here’s a taste:
Whereas; Senator Willard Mitt Romney misrepresented himself as a Republican.
Whereas; Senator Willard Mitt Romney has prioritized his personal and political vendetta against President Donald J. Trump ahead of the Constitution of the United States, the interest of We, the People, and the advancement of the Republican Platform.
The censure then slams Romney for “embarrassing the state of Utah” for being the only Republican to vote to convict Trump during his first impeachment trial. It also scolds Romney for voting against Sen. Rand Paul’s motion to declare the second impeachment trial unconstitutional and to vote in favor of calling witnesses on Saturday.
Here’s the kicker:
Whereas, Senator Williard Mitt Romney appears to be an agent for the Establishment Deep State.
Welp. That tells us all we need to know, I think…
Other Republicans who voted to convict Trump are facing blowback as well:
The state’s Republican attorney general, Jeff Landry, said [Sen. Bill Cassidy of Louisiana] had “fallen into the trap laid by Democrats to have Republicans attack Republicans” — a candid summation of the challenges facing a party splintering into camps divided by loyalty to the former president.
And although they are not seeking re-election, Senators Richard M. Burr of North Carolina and Patrick J. Toomey of Pennsylvania, were rebuked:
Lawrence Tabas, the chairman of the Pennsylvania Republican Party, called the trial “an unconstitutional theft of time and energy that did absolutely nothing to unify or help the American people,” adding, “I share the disappointment of many of our grass-roots leaders and volunteers over Senator Toomey’s vote today.”
In North Carolina, the chairman of the state Republican Party, Michael Whatley, said Mr. Burr’s vote was “shocking and disappointing.” Representative Dan Bishop, Republican of North Carolina, expressed support for censuring him.
So far, Sen. Ben Sasse was spared a trip to the woodshed because of the weather:
Subzero temperatures and punishing winds forced the postponement of a state central committee meeting planned for this weekend, according to a party official.
And Sen. Lisa Murkowski has also been spared any blowback from her party, at this point in time. We’ll see how she fares in the 2022 election.
Meanwhile, it appears that the schism within the Republican party is widening. Gallup is reporting that Republicans desire for a new third party is now at an all-time high:
Americans’ desire for a third party has ticked up since last fall and now sits at a high in Gallup’s trend. Sixty-two percent of U.S. adults say the “parties do such a poor job representing the American people that a third party is needed,” an increase from 57% in September. Support for a third party has been elevated in recent years, including readings of 60% in 2013 and 2015 and 61% in 2017.
…
Independents are usually much more likely than Republicans or Democrats to favor a third political party, but in the current poll, Republicans are nearly as likely as independents to hold this view, 63% to 70%. That represents a dramatic shift for Republicans since last September when 40% favored a third party.
Republicans’ current level of support for a third party is also the highest Gallup has measured for Republicans or Democrats in Gallup’s trend. The previous high was 54% for Democrats in 2018. Currently, 46% of Democrats endorse a third party, down from 52% in September.
Interesting too is the direction that respondents said they wanted to the Republican party go:
The survey asked Republicans and Republican-leaning independents what direction they would like to see the party move in the future. A 40% plurality want the party to become more conservative, while 34% want it to stay the same and 24% to become more moderate. While Republican identifiers are about twice as likely to say the party should become more conservative than moderate (44% to 21%), Republican-leaning independents are split, with 36% wanting it to move further to the right of the ideological spectrum and 30% to move toward the center.
UPDATE: The Utah GOP has decided not to censure Sen. Romney:
Utah GOP out with a statement supportive of both Mitt Romney and Mike Lee on impeachment: "The differences between our own Utah Republicans showcase a diversity of thought." pic.twitter.com/WzfYrsn7Lt
— Andrew Solender (@AndrewSolender) February 15, 2021
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (fd537d) — 2/15/2021 @ 10:55 amThere is a schism in the GOP. But I think it’s clear that Trump is close to the base then I am. Or any of the 7 are.
The GOP is the Trump party, it stands for Trump, cultural grievance, white christian nationalism, populism, and the unitary executive.
Time123 (53ef45) — 2/15/2021 @ 11:13 amWe’ll see. The party has a couple years to either consolidate or disintegrate.
Leviticus (4be401) — 2/15/2021 @ 11:39 amBut what do they mean by “conservative”? Reagan style conservative or Buchanan/Perot/Trump conservative?
Kenneth P. (35a279) — 2/15/2021 @ 11:51 amWhereas, Senator Williard Mitt Romney appears to be an agent for the Establishment Deep State.
Pierre Delecto, in fact, is.
“Tish- that’s French!” – Gomez Addams [John Astin] ‘The Addams Family’ ABC TV, 1964-66
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:09 pmI suspect there may be an issue of definition of terms regarding “conservative” and “moderate” and who means what by them.
Nic (896fdf) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:11 pmA cultist who dines on frog legs and planned for a car elevator in his beach front LaJolla, CA home ain’t a man of the people.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:19 pmSo happyfeet is running the Utah Republican Party now?
Dave (1bb933) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:27 pmMr 123 wrote:
Donald Trump is 74 years old, obese, and for a man with his money, he eats like crap. I have serious doubts that he would be healthy enough to run in 2024.
But you are right in one regard: the Republican base is populist, and the 2024 presidential nominee will be a populist, even though I doubt it will be Mr Trump. Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley are sharpening their populist creds, and Kristi Noem has shown her respect for our constitutional rights in a way no other governor did.
The GOP elites certainly did not want Mr Trump to be the nominee in 2016, and believed, as I did, that he was a sure loser. But it didn’t matter what the elites thought; the Republican voters saw things differently.
The GOP was ripe for populism. The TEA Party movement had some success within the GOP, and though some of those guys who won were co-opted into the “Washington establishment,” the voters were not; that’s why Donald Trump won.
Here in the Bluegrass State, we have been saddled with a Democratic Governor, because the previous Governor, Matt Bevin, was trashed by the teachers for trying to reform their pension system, which was doomed to fail. The current Governor, Andy Beshear, issued the typical draconian orders concerning COVID-19, and refused to consult the legislature — which was not in session, though he had the authority to call them into special session — because he knew the General Assembly would not go along with everything he wanted to do.
The result? in the 2020 elections, the voters increased Republican control of the state House from 61-39 Republican to a whopping 75-25 GOP, and the state Senate, only half of which was up for re-election, from 28-10 to 30-8 GOP. The legislature passed several bills reducing the Governor’s emergency powers under KRS 39A, and overrode Mr Beshear’s vetoes. Naturally, the Governor took the legislature to court, claiming that they couldn’t do that, because COVID.
At least in Kentucky, the “Trump Party” very much resisted the “unitary executive.”
The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:40 pmThe fascist mob Trump sent to the Capitol just wanted to thank Mike Pence for his loyal service, I guess.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:42 pm4.But what do they mean by “conservative”? Reagan style conservative or Buchanan/Perot/Trump conservative?
Don’t overlook those infamous ‘Lincoln Project’ conservatives, either. They make the doomed ‘Propeller Man’ in ‘Titanic’ appear courageous.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:45 pmOf the not-so-Magnificent Seven, two, Senators Burr and Toomey, were not planning to run for re-election in 2022, three, Senators Cassidy, Collins and Sasse, were just re-elected and will not face the voters again until 2026, and one, Senator Romney isn’t up for re-election until 2024, when he will be 76 years old and might not run for re-election. He might have been thinking that since his vote in the first impeachment trial.
Senator Murkowski? Remember, she was defeated in the 2010 Republican primary by a TEA Party candidate, but then won the seat as an independent; she (probably) thinks she is untouchable in Alaska.
The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:48 pmOT- end of a career; Albany’s Splitting Hairs Press Conference:
The Cuomover.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:52 pmMagnificent Seven: Republicans Who Voted To Convict Trump Face Blowback For Having A Spine
The tail just doesn’t understand why the dog no longer wags for them.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:55 pmDana, there’s another poll that describes where the party is at, and it’s not a good place, IMO.
As I see it, as long as Trump plays any sort of role in the GOP, we’re going to stay fractured.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/15/2021 @ 1:05 pmI remain confused by the meaning of “populist.” It appears to be a description for anyone who has a grievance and wants to blame it on a conspiracy.
John B Boddie (d795fd) — 2/15/2021 @ 1:27 pm@ The Dana in Kentucky,
It’s so Trumpian to ascribe a cynical motive to the seven who voted to convict. History has shown us that, those who criticized Trump saw a cynical judgment rendered against them, and nefarious motives were assumed by Trump and his acolytes. Thus, it can never be true that Republicans who break ranks do so precisely because of the oaths they take. They couldn’t possibly have voted to convict because their duty to the Constitution demanded it. To cynically believe that the seven voted as they did because they had less to lose is how Trump ran the table.
It should be noted that there were House members who were recently voted into office and made the decision (to impeach) as well as members facing re-election. I think that if you look at the character of the seven senators and their records, it would provide a fuller picture of why they felt obligated to convict.
Dana (fd537d) — 2/15/2021 @ 1:32 pmI’ve updated the post: The Utah GOP has decided *not* to censure Mitt Romney. In part,”Utah GOP out with a statement supportive of both Mitt Romney and Mike Lee on impeachment: “The differences between our own Utah Republicans showcase a diversity of thought.”
Dana (fd537d) — 2/15/2021 @ 1:48 pmThis is a beautiful phrase. This should be carved along the base of a statue in their honor. I’m imagining something in the soviet style like Worker and Kolkhoz Woman with them all holding up a single torch together. There’s always the Mansu Hill Grand Monument that can be used as an inspiration but I think that would be too mundane and derivative.
Another option would be a stylized arrangement with statues of them as various deities from the Greek pantheon overlooking a central area. Sort of a mini-Battlestar Gallactica opera house motif. Then people can visit the central area and relax surrounded by defenders loyal to the Constitution. If we go that route it needs a central eternal flame that would act as a beacon to the world.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:15 pmThe much nicer Dana wrote:
A cynical motive? No, I didn’t ascribe that. I simply pointed out that those who voted against Mr Trump aren’t particularly worried about 2022. People can decide for themselves what motives to assign to the seven, but one thing is obvious: they were far from their own political danger.
The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:15 pmSteve Bannon to Boston Republicans: Trump will ‘lead us in 2024’
…….
“ Trump is a disruptor, but he has a long-term vision because I absolutely believe in the marrow of my bones that he will be our nominee in 2024,” Bannon later added. “He’ll come back to us. We’ll have a sweeping victory in 2022, and he’ll lead us in 2024.”
Bannon ……..said his strategy is for Trump to run for Congress in 2022 and say he’s running for speaker of the House.
“We totally get rid of Nancy Pelosi, and the first act of President Trump as speaker will be to impeach Joe Biden for his illegitimate activities of stealing the presidency,” Bannon said, leading to applause and hollers from the Boston Republicans.
………
………Trump to run for Congress in 2022 and say he’s running for speaker of the House…… “the first act of President Trump as speaker will be to impeach Joe Biden for his illegitimate activities of stealing the presidency…….”
Comedy gold!
Rip Murdock (259fcd) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:20 pmEstablishment Deep State (said with derision)
All other matters aside, do you think it is crazy to think that there are cabals of federal apparatchiks trying to protect their power? Probably not an official group with a logo and Great Seal, but to think that Trump was not being opposed by backchannel groups with like minds is silly, at best.
Most conspiracy theories have some roots in fact.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:21 pmSenator Murkowski? Remember, she was defeated in the 2010 Republican primary by a TEA Party candidate, but then won the seat as an independent
She won re-election as an independent WRITE-IN candidate. Not a woman to trifle with.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:24 pmfrosty @19-
Where should their loyalties lie-the Party, their constituents, or their belief in the Constitution, even if it conflicts with the first two? And doesn’t leadership mean taking a position that you feel is correct, but conflicts with the positions of the Party or your constituents?
Rip Murdock (259fcd) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:26 pmAs for Romney:
1. He doesn’t care.
2. Beating him in Utah will be hard.
3. The kicker, that tells you all you need to know, is “Willard.”
These are the same people who denied him the nomination at the convention in 2018 (which he won handily at the polls with a 40% margin). They’ll lose again and be just as ungracious about it as last time.
Trumpies have taken over the party machinery everywhere, due to lightly attended party elections where a cadre of activists can have great effect. One of those things that doesn’t last when light gets shined in.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:31 pmMr Snowman wrote:
In my college Russian textbooks, which were produce in the Soviet Union, the statue was simply listed as Bыставка, pronounced vystavka, rather than Рабо́чий и колхо́зница, (Rabóchiy i kolkhóznitsa), which means exhibition, sometimes translated as statue. The female peasant has the ending ница, which reminds me of my sister’s favorite word in Russian, учительница, a female teacher, pronounced uchitel’nitsa. (A male teacher is an учитель.)
The textbooks did try to simplify things for us a bit. I guess that I don’t have Old Timer’s Disease yet if I still remember that stuff.
The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:32 pmMr M wrote:
Peter Strzok was unavailable for comment.
The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:36 pmThis is weak tea. This is a much better reason why Romney is “embarrassing the state of Utah”. He’s an embarrassment to the R party because he’s the poster boy for scumbags who will say anything for the next dollar.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:39 pmAssuming that most of the Acquittal senators don’t have gimme elections, they can be undermined by those aghast at the acquittal (most of the Center and some of the Right) as mush as by the Trumpists could punish them for voting to convict.
Macro Rubio and Ron Johnson look like sure losers in 2022, whichever way they voted.
Burr, Toomey and Portman are in swing states and are retiring. I see these as Democrat pickups, too
There are several weak Democrats up, but if the impeachment vote is a factor in the campaigns, the GOP candidate is going to be damned if the do, and damned if they don’t.
I see a 5 seat pickup for the Dems, further showing the damage done by Trump.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:42 pmIt also scolds Romney for voting against Sen. Rand Paul’s motion to declare the second impeachment trial unconstitutional
Romney’s correct reply: “It was patently, unqustionably constitutional, and the sky may be pink in your world, but not in mine.”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:44 pm@4 reagan conservative: economic free trade libertarian, neo-con interventionist worlds policeman and just enough social family values god, guns and anti-gay conservatism to get the rubes (former southern white trash democrats) to vote against their best interests and for the wealthy’s interests. We can always drive are girl friend to new york to get an abortion like dubya did. Buchanan, perot and trump: anti-intervention populists. As for third partys the system is biased against them getting ballot access. The two partys would make ballot access even more difficult if necessary to stop them and also sabotage with infiltrators like democrats did to green party in swing states pretending to gather signatures for ballot access.
asset (10087b) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:45 pmAnyone who thinks that a trial of a president, impeached while president for acts committed while president, is not contitutional is either ignorant or stupid.
You choose. There is no [honest] argument otherwise. I really don’t say that something is a hard fact like this very often, but here I do.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:50 pm3 Out Of 4 Republicans Want To See Trump Play A Big Role In GOP, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; 68% Of Americans Say Trump Didn’t Do Enough To Stop Insurrection
Two days after the U.S. Senate voted to acquit former President Donald Trump in his second impeachment trial, three-quarters of Republicans say, 75 – 21 percent, that they would like to see Trump play a prominent role in the Republican Party, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll of 1,056 adults released today. Overall, Americans say 60 – 34 percent that they do not want Trump to play a prominent role in the Republican Party. Democrats say 96 – 3 percent and independents say 61 – 32 percent they do not want to see Trump playing a prominent role in the GOP.
A majority of Americans, 55 – 43 percent, say Trump should not be allowed to hold elected office in the future. Republicans say 87 – 11 percent that Trump should be allowed to hold elected office in the future.
Rip Murdock (259fcd) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:51 pm……..
More than half of Americans, 54 – 43 percent, hold the view that Trump is responsible for inciting violence against the government of the United States. When asked a follow-up question: 45 percent of Americans believe Trump is responsible and should face criminal charges, while 6 percent believe he is responsible but should not face criminal charges, and 43 percent say Trump is not responsible for inciting violence.
……..
Republicans say 56 – 34 percent that Trump did everything he could to stop the insurrection. Democrats say 94 – 6 percent and independents say 70 – 23 percent that he did not do everything he could to stop the insurrection.
……..
More than half of Americans (57 percent) say they think that extremism in the United States is growing since the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, only 4 percent say it’s subsiding, and 34 percent say it’s staying the same. The responses were similar among all listed demographic groups.
…….
One of the best things about assets posts is that they are so hard to read, avoiding all whitespace and most punctuation, that I don’t feel so bad for ignoring them. It’s the younger person’s ALL CAPS.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:52 pm@34-
Rip Murdock (259fcd) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:56 pmAnd Finkleman’s inability to use the apostrophe, using the semi-colon that shares the same key. Really annoying.
@16 Populism is a political appeal to ordinary people (fly over country) white trash democrats ectra who feel the establishment elites are ignoring their needs and concerns. 74,000,000 at last vote.
asset (10087b) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:58 pmRip Murdock (259fcd) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:26 pm
One of these is not like the other two. I don’t think loyalty is really the correct word as applied to the Constitution. They are either consistent with it or not. People are loyal to other people. I generally suspect ascribing this sort of personification or deification to a thing as just an attempt at manipulation.
Between the party and their constituents, I’d expect a representative to be loyal to the people who elected them first and then the party. If they think the Constitution requires a thing then that would supersede constituents and party.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/15/2021 @ 3:10 pmIndependents are usually much more likely than Republicans or Democrats to favor a third political party, but in the current poll, Republicans are nearly as likely as independents to hold this view, 63% to 70%. That represents a dramatic shift for Republicans since last September when 40% favored a third party.
Neither party is center-anything anymore. Both are afraid of their extreme wings, and with good reason. The independents feel neither party works for them for this reason.
As for the GOP, they may want a third party but some want the “Trumpies” to go there, and others want the “RINOs” to leave.
Obviously only one of those options works for the independents, and besides there have been several more conservative parties formed, to little effect.
A new centerist party, whatever you call it, would have broad appeal. The most probable effect would be to force the legacy parties back towards the middle, but that’s not so terrible either. It could function like the Liberal Party does in the UK, forcing Labour and Conservatives to stay within arm’s reach of the plot.
What you call it would of course depend on what it wanted to emphasize: federalism, moderation, consensus, etc. Maybe the Bourgeois Party.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 3:14 pmI can’t wait to see where the 75% of GOPers who want Trump to play a major role in the party will take the party. Now that they’ve managed to lose the House, Senate, and Presidency…..and have laid down in the gutter during two impeachments, what will be their next self-destructive act? Certainly continued purification and requirements to bend the knee….not to principle of course….but to personality and serial obnoxiousness. I really thought January 6th would jar the masses from their collective drunken stupor….but alas….it’s just becoming one more excuse to blame the media, Democrats, NeverTrumpers, Antifa, the feckless Congress, and anyone who might expect more from our President. He just needs another chance, I guess. Drive on Trumpists…..will it be another tour of the ditch….or into the on-coming lane? Being out of that car seems like the safest bet…..I would say to fasten your seatbelts….but then again, what do those supposed experts know….
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 2/15/2021 @ 3:19 pmTime123 (53ef45) — 2/15/2021 @ 11:13 am
My guess is Trump won’t last more than a couple of years at best. He’ll live far longer in the minds of D’s, the media, and NeverTrump. They all need him more than the average R.
On the other issues we’re all stuck with mirror issues on the D side. Cultural grievances are the norm for both sides. I’m surprised you slide in unitary executive. Can you name anyone on any side not fully embracing the unitary executive? The white christian nationalism is matched by critical race theory. Populism exists on both sides.
Are you surprised at all that people are starting to talk 3rd party?
frosty (f27e97) — 2/15/2021 @ 3:39 pmMy guess is Trump won’t last more than a couple of years at best. He’ll live far longer in the minds of D’s, the media, and NeverTrump. They all need him more than the average R.
If he even comes within range of an emergency or ICU, inquiries into Westboro Baptist Church will break the internet.
urbanleftbehind (307aa3) — 2/15/2021 @ 4:20 pmA majority of Americans, 55 – 43 percent, say Trump should not be allowed to hold elected office in the future.
And this is the real reason impeachment failed. Perhaps the rush to trial, or even the rush to impeach, was too fast. Few had the time to focus on the case. All they got were exceprts from sources they already didn’t trust.
In the Nixon case, there were hearings and wall-to-wall TV coverage (from not-yet discredited networks) for months and months. Nixon’s ever-collapsing cover-up stretched out his fall, so what happened here in an afternoon took ages, with lies being exposed like peeling an onion. In the end, his support was around 25% with many of his former supporters the loudest calling for his head.
So, Trump is still at 43%, with the inattention of his supporters working in his favor. See how he fares after the criminal trial.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 4:46 pmNow that they’ve managed to lose the House, Senate, and Presidency…..and have laid down in the gutter during two impeachments, what will be their next self-destructive act?
Maybe they’ll figure out how to make packing the Court seem reasonable.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 4:48 pmHerbert Hoover lived to 1964, propelling a generation of Democrat candidates.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 4:50 pmRomney’s correct reply: “It was patently, unqustionably constitutional, and the sky may be pink in your world, but not in mine.”
Fourth rock from the sun; what’s the name of your world again, Pierre? If it’s the Red Planet, pick sky does show up on occasion– so warm some frog legs; we’re landing there for lunch on Thursday.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:00 pmI thought Biden’s commission was tasked to do that. You know, the one that will suggest Biden increase the number of SCOTUS justices, even though Biden says he really, really, really doesn’t want to do that. But will listen to the commission because democracy.
Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:15 pmIf you’re selling Trump as the greatest president ever, you need to invent the “deep state” to explain why he has a difficult time getting things done. In order to divert attention from the actual reason: he’s a lazy, incompetent buffoon.
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:20 pmBe all that as it may, they did manage to piss off the Rothschilds. Just look at this weather!
nk (1d9030) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:39 pmRepublicans on forming a third party: Don’t count on it
………
A number of these sources said that a third party would amount to little more than a spectacle and threaten conservatives’ hopes of recapturing the House, Senate and White House in the years ahead. And even those open to the idea acknowledge the challenges.
“I’ll be the first to say that our electoral system is stacked against third parties,” said Miles Taylor, the former chief of staff at the Department of Homeland Security under Trump, who was among those who took part in the meeting. “If that’s the route we decide to go, we are very clear-eyed about the fact that there’s a graveyard of third parties out there.”
……..
For now, the idea of a third-party movement has failed to gain traction with a wide swath of the Republican Party. Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.), who was among the 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach Trump last month, told Reuters this week that he would not support such an effort.
Another Republican who backed impeachment, Rep. Liz Cheney (Wyo.), also opposes “any effort to split the party,” her spokesperson said in a statement.
One former GOP official expressed support for a breakaway party “in theory” but acknowledged that it’s unlikely to materialize, saying that there are too many systemic hurdles for such an effort to be viable.
“When it’s said and done, a two-party system is simply what the history of this country has been,” the official said. “We like a system where parties have a broader tent. That’s not to say we can’t hope that the Republican Party makes some changes in the next two, four, six years.”
Chuck Clay, a former Georgia state senator and GOP chairman, said that creating a new party would only hurt conservatives by fracturing the voter base.
“Really the choices are, OK, am I going to let the Democrats win?” he said. “Oh, spare me. That’s not going to happen. Or are we going to find a way to supplant the Democrats in two years or four years?”
“People have very legitimate concerns,” he added. “I just hope they don’t turn that into a rancor and bitterness and blame their home team.”
Rip Murdock (259fcd) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:44 pm………
RIP Johnny Pacheco (85).
Rip Murdock (259fcd) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:50 pmDavethulhu (6ba00b) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:20 pm
Who is selling him as the greatest POTUS ever? Is this a thing someplace because that’d be interesting to watch.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:50 pmRIP Brayden Smith (24). Alex’s Last Great Champion.
Rip Murdock (259fcd) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:53 pmBully!? Bully!?
No. Just bull.
After being denied the Republican nomination in an era before presidential primaries, Roosevelt rallied his progressive supporters and launched a third party bid. Roosevelt’s Progressive Party, nicknamed the “Bull Moose Party,” lost the election but marked the most successful third party bid in history, winning 27.4 percent of the vote.
No Teddys in the GOP today– but a moose or two to be sure– eh Pierre?!
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:57 pmQuinnipiac poll also finds more evidence of a schism within the GOP:
Dana (fd537d) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:00 pmWho is selling him as the greatest POTUS ever? Is this a thing someplace because that’d be interesting to watch.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/15/2021 @ 5:50 pm
Republicans used to call Ronald Reagan the best president in US history. Now it’s Donald Trump.
Rip Murdock (259fcd) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:09 pm……..
The change in GOP rankings since 2018, when the last survey was conducted, is striking. In 2018, Republicans ranked Reagan first (36%), followed by Trump (10%). Now, the positions are reversed, with the percentage of Republicans who name Trump as the best President ever having tripled to 36%, twice the number who still choose Ronald Reagan (18%).
…….
The question of worst president ever is a contest between the two most recent presidents to leave office, although twice as many Americans name Trump (46%) as Obama (24%). That was true (though not quite to the same degree) in 2018. Richard Nixon, who avoided impeachment by resigning in 1974, is a distant third at 5%.
……….
I think we should DEMAND that Trump loyalists stay in the party and sign an oath denouncing Trump. Don’t want them running off and forming the Trump Party. No. Please don’t! That would be terrible.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:11 pmBut will listen to the commission because democracy.
And Trump will be the one defending the Court, with his legal brain-trust leading the charge. Once they find suits that fit.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:13 pmRepublicans used to call Ronald Reagan the best president in US history. Now it’s Donald Trump.
When Right is wrong.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:15 pmIf Trump were to win the nomination in 2024 there would be nothing left of the GOP. Then again, his followers have often said they want to destroy the Republican Party and the GOP doesn’t have the self-preservation instinct of a fly.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:16 pmRepublicans used to call Ronald Reagan the best president in US history. Now it’s Donald Trump.
Different Republicans, using shorter words.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:16 pm“Who is selling him as the greatest POTUS ever? Is this a thing someplace because that’d be interesting to watch.”
Have you been asleep the last 4 years?
Serious question, what would it take to convince you? It’s trivial to find examples, Rip provided one a few posts up.
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:18 pmIf you’re selling Trump as the greatest president ever, you need to invent the “deep state” to explain why he has a difficult time getting things done
The Deep State has always been there. Reagan didn’t mind, he just made them get out of the way. The Democrats had the House and the Supreme Court all 8 years and he still changed the course of history.
The top tax rate in 1981 was 70%, the Soviet Union was a superpower, and public employee unions called strikes. All that changed.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:21 pmTrump was unable to deal with the Deeps State, but he was unable to keep talent working for him, too. He could not get a damn thing done, so he spoke at rallies and lied a lot, telling people things were changing when they weren’t.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:23 pmHere’s the Google Trends for “deep state” for the last 5 years.
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:23 pmThe deep state does not exist. It’s a conspiracy theory.
Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:24 pmThe Mafia does not exist. It’s a conspiracy theory.
Michael Corleone (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:29 pmHow the mRNA vaccines work:
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/mrna_vaccine.png
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:30 pmNow, the Deep State™ — a monolithic and sinister organization like SPECTRE or KAOS — might not exist. But there are many people working in the government that work fervently for one side and are passively aggressive towards the other, and some of them talk to some of the others.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:33 pmPlease, try to start a third party, Pierre.
After 1912, many Roosevelt supporters left the Republican Party, and the Party underwent an ideological shift to the right. The GOP lost its congressional majorities during the Great Depression (1929–1940); under President Franklin D. Roosevelt, the Democrats formed a winning New Deal coalition that was dominant from 1932 through 1964. – source, wikigoptombstone
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:34 pmThe Dana in Kentucky (facd7c) — 2/15/2021 @ 12:48 pm
And Alaska just changed its election system in last November’s election to abolish closed primaries – all primaries in fact – – and replace it with a ranked choice instant runoff.
Louisiana, by the way, has a jungle primary like California does now.
Maine has ranked choice in statewide primary elections, and in general elections ONLY for federal offices, including the office of U.S. President.
Sammy Finkelman (00fff5) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:56 pm20. The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c) — 2/15/2021 @ 2:15 pm
This is an argument for them not being heroes, not for them being cynical. The cynicism is about this being a profile in courage.
Cassidy in fact thought the majority of the people of Louisiana agreed with him now about Trump and more would in the future. (Cassidy was asked a question)
There’s no real self-serving motive for being a “Yes” to convict – the cynicism would be about those who voted “No.”
Sammy Finkelman (00fff5) — 2/15/2021 @ 7:06 pmTo be fair, these situations are not exactly analogous. ALL House members were recently re-elected, and ALL (except those who decide not to run again) will be facing re-election in 2022. Had multiple Republican senators whose terms expired in 2022, and who intended to run for the Senate again, voted to convict — well, that would have been courageous. But only Murkowski did. And as has been observed elsewhere in the comments, she has good evidence to believe that she might be a special case.
Cassidy could just be saying that. And while you are right that the vote is not self-serving, that still doesn’t mean it couldn’t be the result of political calculation. Consider Louisiana’s jungle primary. Cassidy probably thinks that with six years of votes between him and the impeachment trial, he will easily get enough votes to finish in the top two even if Trumpers are still holding a grudge — in which case, he will probably face either a Trump-wing candidate or a Democrat. Either way, he would be well-positioned in the middle…easier to take the other wing and win. The next most likely possibility would be that he wins outright…in which case, obviously, he’d be fine.
Demosthenes (d7fc81) — 2/15/2021 @ 7:21 pmRep. Peter Meijer, who voted to impeach Trump, assumed office on Jan. 3, 2021.
Dana (fd537d) — 2/15/2021 @ 7:38 pm66. Michael Corleone (ab1c11) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:29 pm
It took the aborted meeting in Apalachin, New York, in 1957, to turn that around.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2013/11/apalachin-meeting-on-this-day-in-1957-the-fbi-finally-had-to-admit-that-the-mafia-existed.html
Harry J. Anslinger of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics had always believed in the Mafia, in contrast to J. Edgar Hoover’s FBI. After that, the FBI did a lot of wiretaps. For intelligence not for use in courts, and the FBI had a theory that anything not for use in courts did not require a warrant.
The Outfit eventually appealed a case and the Supreme Court ruled for the Outfit in Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967) It was also responsible for the landmark case of Mapp v. Ohio, 367 U.S. 643 (1961) which extended the federal exclusionary rule (in place since 1914) to the states.
Im 1968 Congress passed authorizing search warrants for wiretaps. There are also separate foreign intelligence wiretaps.
Of course the Mafia was only part of the story. It was only one unit of the Outfit. It was the Italian wing (and in America took in people from any part of Italy, not just Sicily)
Organized crime as we know it was founded in the 1928-1932 period, and one thing that it did was it kept aging gangsters from being replaced every ten years or so maximum. People born before about 1910 stayed in control decade after decade. This was not a natural situation, although today it appears to us that it was.
The main founders are said to have been Owen Vincent (“Owney the Killer”) Madden, Meyer Lansky and Joe Bonanno. Madden semi-retired before 1935 and became the political boss of Hot Springs, Arkansas. He turned in Lucky Luciano who had fled to Hot Springs. Later he made a deal for release in which he supposedly prevented sabotage, which wasn’t happening anyway. The deal called for him to be deported to Italy. For many years the titular leader of organized crime was out of reach in Italy and the person in reach – Frank Costello – was not officially the boss. This created a more or less stable situation. More or less only.
Some conspiracy theories are true or part of the truth. It was Bill Clinton who tried to circulate the belief that all conspiracy theories ere false.
Sammy Finkelman (00fff5) — 2/15/2021 @ 7:38 pmDavethulhu (6ba00b) — 2/15/2021 @ 6:18 pm
I’ll admit I wasn’t expecting a survey saying he was the best ever. I think this
explains the results though so I’m not sure I’d read to much into that survey. D’s put BO in front of AL or FDR which means no one answering the survey is giving a meaningful answer. My guess is people are really answering the question “who do I personally like the most” which is different from “who’s the best”.
But if you take the survey seriously and you are NeverTrump you may hope the grim reaper does you a solid.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/15/2021 @ 7:55 pmBurr is censured:
Dana (fd537d) — 2/15/2021 @ 9:44 pmOK, so I should’ve said “recently elected” instead of “recently re-elected”. But my point stands.
Demosthenes (d7fc81) — 2/15/2021 @ 9:48 pmDemosthenes,
You are making a value judgment on the seven based upon political risks alone. I am considering the whole picture, including known history and character of the individuals.
Dana (fd537d) — 2/15/2021 @ 10:03 pm@68 There is no deep state. There are bureaucrats, who are mostly concerned that nobody screws up their department or messes with the budget and who probably don’t like idiots and seagulls. There is no conspiracy, there are just people who are doing their jobs and would rather keep doing them without too much interference. “The bureaucrats are out to get me” doesn’t sound scary though, so they had to make up a new conspiracy theory.
Nic (896fdf) — 2/15/2021 @ 11:27 pmRight now the closest thing we have to a functioning hostile Deep State is ICE which is systematically trying to sabotage Biden’s attempt to change immigration and deportation policies. I realize that for some here those policies are problematic. But if you really have a concern about federal bureaucrats sabotaging the policies of elected leaders than you’d have to find ICE a problem.
Victor (4959fb) — 2/15/2021 @ 11:34 pmNic (896fdf) — 2/15/2021 @ 11:27 pm
The name comes from Erdogan of Turkey. There might have been one there, once. There were periodic military coups.
They used to be called “the permanent government.” It;s more spontaneous, and nothing should extend across the entire government.
Sammy Finkelman (00fff5) — 2/16/2021 @ 3:36 amVictor (4959fb) — 2/15/2021 @ 11:34 pm
That;s not a Deep State. It’s limited to one agency. And they’ve been lobbying the American people since at least 1974 and hhave made the Republican Party very hardline..
There is sabotage but also this is the result of many changes that were put in by Trump under the advice of Stephen Miller.
Sammy Finkelman (00fff5) — 2/16/2021 @ 3:42 amI remember commenters here saying there is no NeverTrump and that it was a fiction. Looking back more generally I remember “we don’t want to take guns” and “safe, legal, and rare”.
The attempt at the Jedi mind trick is funny to watch.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/16/2021 @ 5:28 amdepends on what you mean by “Deep State”.
If you’re talking about a coordinated conspiracy that’s attempting to usurp power and thwart the will of the people then it doesn’t exist.
If you talking about a huge bureaucracy with a lot of institutional inertia, bad incentives, and many people who have over indexed on what they think their mission is then yes, there is a deep state.
Time123 (7cca75) — 2/16/2021 @ 6:06 amMy list was the affirmative stance of the GOP, I wasn’t attempting to list their flaws. The flaws; the open racism, the corrupt disregard for the rule of law, the embrace of conspiracy theories at the top of the party, the lack of patriotism are where the dems manage to fail less.
Time123 (7cca75) — 2/16/2021 @ 6:11 am@84
This.
They’re also people too, with their own political bent.
whembly (c30c83) — 2/16/2021 @ 7:32 amThis is simply propaganda that you’ve been conditioned to believe.
People are not required to forswear political opinions to work for the government. To take the example most frequently cited, the actions of Strzok and his colleagues in the FBI leadership were scrutinized by the IG with a fine-toothed comb, and he concluded none of their official actions were improperly motivated by political bias. The Grand Inquisitor Durham has had almost two years to expose this vast conspiracy, and to date the only crime he has charged was one the FBI itself discovered and documented. The alleged leader of cabal, Comey, is very likely responsible for Trump’s victory in 2016, thanks to his misguided obsession with impartiality.
To come at this, think of people you know who work for the government. Do you suppose Patrick decides whether to prosecute people based on his political opinions? That he would recommend a more lenient sentence for someone because they are conservative? It’s a ludicrous suggestion.
The vast majority of people who work in government follow the rules, for several reinforcing reasons:
1) they have little real power, individually
Dave (1bb933) — 2/16/2021 @ 7:37 am2) their official actions are a matter of record, subject to scrutiny by co-workers, superiors and the public
3) personally, they have nothing to gain, and much to lose, from impropriety
To come at this *from a different angle,
Dave (1bb933) — 2/16/2021 @ 7:40 amTime123 (7cca75) — 2/16/2021 @ 6:11 am
Not less. It’s just a matter of which ones you agree with. Pretending De and Re are any more or less of any of the things you mentioned is debating which dog droppings are more or less brown.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/16/2021 @ 8:23 amDeep State, Deep State, Deep State! All the time Deep State! Why doesn’t anybody talk about Secular Humanism anymore? I still have three brand new Secular Humanisms from the 2000s that I haven’t even worn yet!
nk (1d9030) — 2/16/2021 @ 8:32 amNo, the GOP support of Trump’s lies and crimes are evidence to the contrary
Time123 (7cca75) — 2/16/2021 @ 8:40 amRight, but Trump and his supporters used the phrase to mean that there was a large and coordinated conspiracy that was out to get him. Not that there is a rigid bureaucracy that had in many cases had captured their political leaders.
Time123 (7cca75) — 2/16/2021 @ 8:42 amMurkowski statements:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/14/us/politics/republican-senators-impeachment-trump.html
Excerpt from Senator Susan Collins:
Both of them seem to have given general statements on whether Trump should be impeached, and not limited themselves to the allegations stated in the House impeachment resolution, namely, that he incited the mob that day with his words.
Sammy Finkelman (00fff5) — 2/16/2021 @ 8:52 amTime123 (7cca75) — 2/16/2021 @ 8:40 am
Keep holding on to that. That and $2.50 might get you some coffee at starbucks.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/16/2021 @ 8:57 amI made no value judgment. I pointed out that the situation between the House members and Senate members was not an analogous one. And I pointed out circumstances under which you could definitely say the act was courageous, which I would argue none of the seven met. But there’s no value judgment in any of that.
Demosthenes (d7fc81) — 2/16/2021 @ 9:39 am@Frosty@83 Remembering other unrelated things that had nothing to do with the “deep state” has nothing to do with the “deep state”.
Nic (896fdf) — 2/16/2021 @ 11:47 amNic (896fdf) — 2/16/2021 @ 11:47 am
Remembering who likes the “nothing to see here” trick is of some value.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/16/2021 @ 11:57 amI guess since you can’t justify that your team is actually decent you have to fall back to your opposing team being just as bad.
Time123 (52fb0e) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:05 pmYou could haves saved time and just wrote that his reply way noted.
Time123 (52fb0e) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:05 pm@frosty@97 Well let’s make things crystal then. I never had anything to say about whether or not NeverTrump existed. The congress isn’t going to pass significant gun control legislating because too many Dems come from conservative districts. “Safe, legal, rare.” is a position a very large number of Americans still hold. You can dismiss that large number of Americans (many of whom are Democrats) if you want, but it definitely exists.
The Deep State still isn’t real.
Nic (896fdf) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:16 pm