Patterico's Pontifications

1/2/2021

UnAmerican Senators Proudly Proclaim Their Intent to Challenge the Results of a Free and Fair Election

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:22 am



I’m sorry to step on the weekend open thread with a new post, but I’m angry. I woke up this morning to news that at least eight sitting Senators and four Senators-elect plan to challenge the results of the free and fair 2020 presidential election. On what basis? That there was rampant fraud that likely swung the outcome? No, they don’t allege that, because that didn’t happen. Instead, they cite the fact that some citizens distrust the election results — while failing to mention that they themselves have sown that distrust, with no basis whatsoever.

The abhorrent Ted Cruz will be part of this unAmerican group, and he’s super excited to tell you about it:

WASHINGTON, D.C. – U.S. Senators Ted Cruz (R-Texas), Ron Johnson (R-Wis.), James Lankford (R-Okla.), Steve Daines (R-Mont.), John Kennedy (R-La.), Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.), and Mike Braun (R-Ind.), and Senators-Elect Cynthia Lummis (R-Wyo.), Roger Marshall (R-Kan.), Bill Hagerty (R-Tenn.), and Tommy Tuberville (R-Ala.) issued the following statement in advance of the Electoral College certification process on January 6, 2021:

“America is a Republic whose leaders are chosen in democratic elections. Those elections, in turn, must comply with the Constitution and with federal and state law.

“When the voters fairly decide an election, pursuant to the rule of law, the losing candidate should acknowledge and respect the legitimacy of that election. And, if the voters choose to elect a new office-holder, our Nation should have a peaceful transfer of power.

“The election of 2020, like the election of 2016, was hard fought and, in many swing states, narrowly decided. The 2020 election, however, featured unprecedented allegations of voter fraud, violations and lax enforcement of election law, and other voting irregularities.

“Voter fraud has posed a persistent challenge in our elections, although its breadth and scope are disputed. By any measure, the allegations of fraud and irregularities in the 2020 election exceed any in our lifetimes.

“And those allegations are not believed just by one individual candidate. Instead, they are widespread. Reuters/Ipsos polling, tragically, shows that 39% of Americans believe ‘the election was rigged.’ That belief is held by Republicans (67%), Democrats (17%), and Independents (31%).

“Some Members of Congress disagree with that assessment, as do many members of the media.

“But, whether or not our elected officials or journalists believe it, that deep distrust of our democratic processes will not magically disappear. It should concern us all. And it poses an ongoing threat to the legitimacy of any subsequent administrations.

“Ideally, the courts would have heard evidence and resolved these claims of serious election fraud. Twice, the Supreme Court had the opportunity to do so; twice, the Court declined.

“On January 6, it is incumbent on Congress to vote on whether to certify the 2020 election results. That vote is the lone constitutional power remaining to consider and force resolution of the multiple allegations of serious voter fraud.

[blah blah blah about supposed precedent omitted — P]

Congress should immediately appoint an Electoral Commission, with full investigatory and fact-finding authority, to conduct an emergency 10-day audit of the election returns in the disputed states. Once completed, individual states would evaluate the Commission’s findings and could convene a special legislative session to certify a change in their vote, if needed.

“Accordingly, we intend to vote on January 6 to reject the electors from disputed states as not ‘regularly given’ and ‘lawfully certified’ (the statutory requisite), unless and until that emergency 10-day audit is completed.

“We are not naïve. We fully expect most if not all Democrats, and perhaps more than a few Republicans, to vote otherwise. But support of election integrity should not be a partisan issue. A fair and credible audit-conducted expeditiously and completed well before January 20-would dramatically improve Americans’ faith in our electoral process and would significantly enhance the legitimacy of whoever becomes our next President. We owe that to the People.

“These are matters worthy of the Congress, and entrusted to us to defend. We do not take this action lightly. We are acting not to thwart the democratic process, but rather to protect it. And every one of us should act together to ensure that the election was lawfully conducted under the Constitution and to do everything we can to restore faith in our Democracy.”

War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.

We are acting not to thwart the democratic process, but rather to protect it.

My reaction to this is unpublishable. All I can say is that I hope this life affords me at least one opportunity to meet Ted Cruz face to face, so I can tell him that I supported him for President and gave him money — and now, I’m sorry I ever said a kind word about him and would like to personally tell him to go straight to hell.

It’s almost impossible to overstate how dangerous this is. This is a major and indefensible escalation of a partisan tit for tat regarding elections that sets us on a path towards making peaceful transitions of power impossible. The Greeks and Romans had the right idea (although they often chose the wrong targets): when the existence of certain people in their society was no longer compatible with the continuation of that society, those people were banished. The people responsible for this stunt deserve to be exiled. (They deserve worse than that, in fact — but now we’re getting to the part of my opinion that is unpublishable.)

I have said it before: There are two ways to change regimes: voting and violence. I fear for the country if the people conclude the former is not a viable option. This contemptible act is the first step on the road to violence being our default way of handling the transition of power. History will not be kind to the names of the people involved in this deeply unpatriotic, dangerous, and abominable disregard of the votes of tens of millions of American citizens.

231 Responses to “UnAmerican Senators Proudly Proclaim Their Intent to Challenge the Results of a Free and Fair Election”

  1. “Ignorance is strength”
    _

    Which party supported the rioters against people, property, police, civil order and rule of law, while failing to mention that they themselves have sown that hate, with no basis whatsoever?

    Tell us again where the madness is emanating from:

    Disclose.tv
    @disclosetv

    NEW – Pelosi has drafted new House rules for the 117th Congress: Gendered terms like “father, daughter, mother, and son” are soon outlawed. The rules package will be voted on when the new Congress assembles.
    _

    harkin (8fadc8)

  2. He famously called Donald Trump a “pathological liar”. Now, he is willing to sell out democracy itself on behalf of that liar. Of course it will make him a bit more popular with Trump fans. Not that it will matter in a post-election world.

    Ted Cruz makes my blood boil.

    noel (9fead1)

  3. harkin’s Comment #1 is fake news from the Nutjobosphere.

    nk (1d9030)

  4. nk,

    There is this NY Post story about it. FWIW.

    That said, when weighing the relative importance of some nutty woke change to House rules vs. an attempt (however futile) to steal a presidential election, it takes a pretty devoted partisan to find the former to be a better example of “madness” sweeping a political party.

    Fortunately we have just such a devoted partisan here, to whatabout this thread from the get go!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  5. Tell us again where the madness is emanating from

    From the people trying to steal the election. Full stop.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  6. Pelosi is being silly about gender stuff, Harkin. That is retail politics. Are you really going to defend the GOP trying to shut down peaceful transitions of power with a complaint about social conservatism? It’s a pure deflection. Like I predicted before, you will soon deny ever supporting Trump, but you support him this much today.

    Please reconsider your support. You can do much more than any of us can. You, NJRob, Whembly, you guys are smart and I don’t say that to patronize. Y’all know this is stupid, that Biden is the next president, and how valuable it will be to everyone in 2024 if we have a peaceful transition of power.

    The idea that we remain a real democracy is much more important than whether we use preferred pronouns. It’s more important than any other issue. Putin and Trump have greatly harmed the cause of democracy. This is not what the GOP is supposed to be about. What does it really mean to be a Republican? What does that word even mean?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  7. @1, The madness is coming from you and people like you, people that prioritize their policy preferences over democracy and our constitution.

    If you were bothered by the Civil Unrest that happened in response to the George Floyd murder wait until the 80 million people who voted for Biden stop laughing at the GOP and shaking their heads at the grifting and lies and start treating this like an actual threat to democracy.

    Despite over 200,000,000$ in funding Trump hasn’t produced any credible examples of fraud. Let alone examples on a scale to tip the election. But he, supported by people like you, is working to throw out the results of a fair election.

    Why would an armed populace allow themselves to be ruled by an government that stole power?

    And assuming that we have peaceful transfer of power, why would ambitious politicians of dubious morals such has Harris or AOC not try these tactics themselves when convenient? If 2024 is won by the GOP in a few close states I fully expect them to demand a commission on voter suppression to make sure the results were ‘fair’. Apparenlty the GOP position right now is that VP, who would Harris, has the power to throw out slates of electors. When that happens people who placed less value on democracy and rule of law than their preferred policy outcomes, people like you Harkin, will have helped make it easier for her.

    It’s weird that you think changing boilerplate language from Mother/Father to Parent is worth ending our democracy.

    Finally, the insinuation that the Democratic party supported riots is a lie. The far left that Antifa resides in was rejected by the majority of the Dem party when Biden was selected as the Presidential candidate. Biden was clear and joined by other leaders that riots have no place in peaceful protests. So far he’s given no prominent positions to leaders of the far left. Lies like this which support the GOP effort to destroy American Democracy, and people like you that push them are part of the problem.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  8. Thank you, Patterico. I apologize, harkin.

    nk (1d9030)

  9. Patterico, I think this effort will fail. But I think it will have to be tried again. The extremists and the partisans will demand it every time. Eventually one of these dogs will manage to catch a parked car and have to decide what to do with it. Many elected officials will know it’s BS, but their flanks will demand that they go along. And the country we once had, a democracy ruled with the consent of the governed, will be over.

    I’m going to have to add “the constitution” to the list of things I think GOP officials don’t really care about. Just like ‘limited government, states rights, fiscal disciple, and family values.’

    Time123 (53ef45)

  10. Thank you, Patterico. I apologize, harkin.

    nk (1d9030) — 1/2/2021 @ 12:02 pm

    What are you apologizing for? On the one hand we have more then 20% of the GOP senate trying to seal an election. On the other we have a change from Brother / sister to sibling.

    Can you provide me an example of something the House could do that would have less impact on my life? But this unpatriotic yahoo puts it up as equivalent to stealing the presidency. It’s an insane way to view the world.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  11. If you were bothered by the Civil Unrest that happened in response to the George Floyd murder wait until the 80 million people who voted for Biden stop laughing at the GOP and shaking their heads at the grifting and lies and start treating this like an actual threat to democracy.

    This is a good point. Why would Cruz want the America where Trump is installed for four more years, where riots and domestic terrorism become common, where we are sure to see these manuevers from both party’s fringe in every election until they are outlawed?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  12. @5: In less than three weeks this will fail, Trump will be gone, and for four years we’ll be left with the dufus you voted for and his nut job fellow travelers.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  13. @12, What you’ve laid out is the least bad alternative.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  14. Finally, the insinuation that the Democratic party supported riots is a lie. The far left that Antifa resides in was rejected by the majority of the Dem party when Biden was selected as the Presidential candidate. Biden was clear and joined by other leaders that riots have no place in peaceful protests.

    And yet, the riots continue and Democrats do nothing. They said the right thing before the election and now they are waiting patiently and quietly for their radical brethren to accomplish what they want.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  15. @14, weird lie.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  16. @5: In less than three weeks this will fail, Trump will be gone, and for four years we’ll be left with the dufus you voted for and his nut job fellow travelers.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 1/2/2021 @ 12:18 pm

    We will also be left with this notion that it is normal to refuse to peacefully transition power, and this power might wind up being used by someone you don’t like. I understand that Trump and pals using it elicits a yawn, but you’re not thinking things through.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  17. And yet, the riots continue and Democrats do nothing. They said the right thing before the election and now they are waiting patiently and quietly for their radical brethren to accomplish what they want.

    I suppose the they in that sentence are these people right.

    “But bottom line is, the court is saying, ‘We’re not going to touch this. You have no remedy’—basically, in effect, the ruling would be that you gotta go the streets and be as violent as Antifa and BLM.”

    Two hours ago Gohmert’s office (definitely wasn’t him) released a statement that he didn’t say the thing that he said, and repeated on his last tweet from yesterday because people actually paid attention to the dumbest man ever to hold an elected position…ever. Trump is at least clever, like a rat, Gohmert isn’t even that. At least Trump is consistent that Trump is always lying and deceiving for the benefit of Trump, always.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  18. I understand that Trump and pals using it elicits a yawn, but you’re not thinking things through.

    Seems you haven’t thought it through the past four years, otherwise it would register that you’re reaping the whirlwind.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  19. I understand that Trump and pals using it elicits a yawn, but you’re not thinking things through.

    Seems you haven’t thought it through the past four years, otherwise it would register that you’re reaping the whirlwind.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 1/2/2021 @ 12:54 pm

    Once again you’re using things that didn’t happen as justification for your teams wrongdoing. Maybe this stuff makes sense when you value our country as a secondary good.

    Time123 (653992)

  20. I have to ask which fairy tale do you feel justifies this?

    Was it the properly predicated investigation of Russian interference in our election?
    Was it that Hillary was never locked up?
    Is it the war on Christmas?
    Is it that the MSM was mean to Trump?

    Which one do you feel justifies trying to steal the presidency?

    Time123 (653992)

  21. You don’t have to be a trump supporter to realize the election was not free and certainly not fair. Please explain how 18% of the population control 52 senate seats is fair. Trump lost az, mi. and pa. because republican legislators in their never ending attempt to keep the libertarian party off the ballot made ballot access so difficult that only the libertarian party could jump thru the hoops to get on the ballot! This made it easy to keep green party off ballot by democrat party. Example 2016 trump wins wisconsin by 22,000 votes with green party siphoning off 36,000 votes from democrats. In 2020 trump loses wisconsin by 20,000 votes without green party on ballot. Free and fair hogwash!

    asset (153625)

  22. @14, weird lie.

    Careful. That’s no way to start the new year:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/portland-police-declare-a-riot-as-protest-gets-out-of-control/ar-BB1coIhb

    You have a long four years carrying water for Democrats and their rioting leftwing allies.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  23. I don’t see Cruz as wanting to overthrow the election. I really don’t. In many conversations with his supporters the majority feel that the issue is the possibility of fraud and how honest and sincere investigation of possible fraud is poo-pooed and shut down without an attempt to get to the bottom of it. Was there fraud? Yes. There always has been to some degree (by dishonest people, no party affiliation needed). Was there enough to change the election? I don’t think so but I think there was more than has been told and I think that judges and election officials have gone out of their way to shut down real investigation. The protest of the election is simply one more way to make people realize that honest hard working Americans have given testimony to what they saw and have been called liars without any investigation into their testimony. No forensic audits have been done despite the ability to do so. Why not? I would think that BOTH sides of the aisle would want to verify the lack of fraud, and if there was expose it. As it stands half the nation is going to think Biden stole the election. This letter of intent is just a show and we all know it. It’s to draw attention to what they believe is a real issue. Reality is Ted Cruz doesn’t represent California so it really doesn’t matter what California thinks of him at this point about this issue. He represents Texas and what I see around me is much of Texas (exception Austin and Houston) saying…. hey, there’s a problem here with this election so maybe he’s doing his job representing his constituents (?). Is he killing any future political aspirations of being President? Probably with people telling him to go to hell, definitely. Well to quote Davy Crockett…. “Y’all can go to hell, I’ll go to Texas.”

    Marci (405d43)

  24. Which one do you feel justifies trying to steal the presidency?

    The use of lawfare to overturn an election result is not stealing. We learned that the past four years. So, your premise is faulty.

    Best go back to your default “people who disagree with me hate our country” argument.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  25. Which party supported the rioters against people, property, police, civil order and rule of law, while failing to mention that they themselves have sown that hate, with no basis whatsoever?

    At the very least, one should be enough of an independent thinker and unbound by party or political idol to abhor and condemn both the rioters *and* the sitting President of the United States and his elected sycophants for trying to undermine and overturn a legitimate election. At the very least…

    A default, reflexive position of “whataboutism” in the face of righteous condemnation of what Trump and his toadies are doing only serves to demonstrate that one’s idolatry of a corrupt powermonger is more important than character and principle.

    Dana (cc9481)

  26. Hoi Polloi, are those democrats or are they Proud Boys? Do you think these crazy folks like joe biden? Why are they attacking McConnell and Pelosi this week? Why are the Proud Boys announcing they will be dressing in all black to mimic Antifa? Why is it important to them that this strategy is widely known, that getting copycats justifies revealing the plot?

    We are seeing this week will have a strategy. The narrative is that the riots and violence are arguments against Biden being president. This is a really stupid narrative, but I’m sure it opens some wallets.

    , otherwise it would register that you’re reaping the whirlwind.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 1/2/2021 @ 12:54 pm

    America deserves to be damaged because we rejected Trump. Burn it all down, says Ace of Spades. Something tells me that once the actual whirlwind is to be reaped, our anonymous friend BnP ain’t so brave about it.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  27. You don’t have to be a trump supporter to realize the election was not free and certainly not fair. Please explain how 18% of the population control 52 senate seats is fair. Trump lost az, mi. and pa. because republican legislators in their never ending attempt to keep the libertarian party off the ballot made ballot access so difficult that only the libertarian party could jump thru the hoops to get on the ballot! This made it easy to keep green party off ballot by democrat party. Example 2016 trump wins wisconsin by 22,000 votes with green party siphoning off 36,000 votes from democrats. In 2020 trump loses wisconsin by 20,000 votes without green party on ballot. Free and fair hogwash!

    So you’re definition of “free and fair” means that Republican legislatures should disallow people that have a constituency (what’s your view of the Kanye West thing?) to vote for a candidate that was not either Trump or Biden.

    Your solution to your guy not winning is to make it less free and fair, less defined by the Constitution, because free and fair didn’t work out for you.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  28. I see no one wants to debate wither we really had free and fair elections.

    asset (153625)

  29. Glad to see someone took me up on it. Direct opposite of what I said I was complaining about republican legislators making ballot access to difficult to keep third partys off ballots Democrats do even worse in new york.

    asset (153625)

  30. It’s very important to remember, this is all precipitated by the fact that Trump lost the election.

    These guys are the losers. They lack honesty, grace, kindness, patriotism. The same folks who bragged they go out without masks, are bragging they don’t see the problem in fighting the election. These guys are weasels. Cruz is indeed the very very best weasel in America and I am glad to see he is now the leader of the coward losers.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  31. Which one do you feel justifies trying to steal the presidency?

    The use of lawfare to overturn an election result is not stealing. We learned that the past four years. So, your premise is faulty.

    Best go back to your default “people who disagree with me hate our country” argument.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 1/2/2021 @ 1:19 pm

    You can’t even specify which made up offense you’re using to justify this.

    Also, it’s not people in general. Its you. I think you, Beer ‘n Pretzels, have to love or respect for our country. It the only conclusion I can come to based on the things you say.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  32. In many conversations with his supporters the majority feel that the issue is the possibility of fraud and how honest and sincere investigation of possible fraud is poo-pooed and shut down without an attempt to get to the bottom of it. Was there fraud? Yes. There always has been to some degree (by dishonest people, no party affiliation needed).

    I was playing hold ’em poker at a casino shortly before the pandemic and I was dealt A-A against K-K. We both went all in. Now, as you may or may not know, my aces were mathematically favored to win. But then the cards came out and a King happened to come up and I lost the hand and like $500.

    I feel like there’s the possibility the deck was rigged. I’ve heard stories of crooked games in the past and I saw a movie called Casino where they established casinos are run by the mob and we know the mob cheats and come to think of it Godfather II also proved the mob runs casinos and also I remember seeing a movie once about rigged quiz shows, so the whole think seems hinky to me and maybe the casino did the same thing? Anyway, it should be pretty clear that the deck could have been rigged.

    But when I tried to take all of the money I thought I won, the pit bosses came over and tried to throw me out. I then said OK OK hold on maybe they could just keep the money in an escrow while we CONSIDER that maybe the hand was rigged, and not simply give all the chips to the guy with the Kings while we wait to investigate and look into this. Why rush, you know?

    I should also note I tried to take the chips back twenty-five hands later, and the mob boss was like, “Why did you wait?” but I had to gather my thoughts.

    But would you believe they gave the money to that guy anyway? They didn’t even do a forensic audit to see if the deck was rigged OR if the casino is run by the mob like in Godfather II and Casino OR if the dealer was really a foreigner who wanted me to lose. Unbelievable. And you know, now that I think about it I was wearing a Pittsburgh Steelers shirt at the table and the dealer’s name tag said he was from Dallas and we all know Dallas people are Cowboys fans and hate the Steelers so maybe he rigged it for that reason??!? FORENSIC AUDIT, NOW.

    And lest I sound crazy, I’d like to note that a hard working American sitting next to me ALSO thought I won the hand. Granted, his reason was that the dealer looked like a foreigner and he doesn’t like foreigners but either way the whole thing looked mighty suspicious to him. Shouldn’t we look into this?

    Anyway, I’m putting together a lawsuit trying to get my money back from the casino. I’m putting together a lawsuit and I need your help. Can you spare a few bucks to help ol’ Johnny?

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  33. @28 Our undying devotion to a two-party system makes it unfair from the get go. The unfortunate reality is people realize that until the parties are broken (can we file RICO charges against the Dems and GOP? lol) third parties are lost votes. The two main parties control who gets on the ballot, making it unfair.

    Marci (405d43)

  34. We had a free and fair election, obviously. You’re just gaslighting.

    BTW, there is actually results had presidential ballots cast for:

    Joe Biden/Kamala D. Harris (D)
    Donald Trump/Mike Pence (R)
    Jo Jorgensen/Spike Cohen (L)
    Howie Hawkins/Angela Nicole Walker (G)
    Jade Simmons/Claudeliah Roze (Independent)
    Gloria La Riva/Sunil Freeman (Party for Socialism and Liberation)
    Daniel Clyde Cummings/Ryan Huber (American Constitution Party)
    President Boddie/Eric Stoneham

    Which one of those did you want/not believe should be on the ballot and why?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  35. @32 The letter clearly states they will NOT contest the election IF an electoral commission to investigate the possible fraud is formed. SO WHY NOT FORM A COMMISSION? We are throwing money away on gender-studies in Pakistan so why not settle this and give evidence that fraud either did or didn’t happen?

    Marci (405d43)

  36. Sure, Marci. I’m sure you’re acting in good faith and would not question the commission’s findings if they didn’t find wide scale fraud, because you’re sure it exists. Thus, if they don’t find it, they’re corrupt too. WHY NOT FORM AN ANTICIPATORY COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE THE COMMISSION???

    And by the way, how long would a commission be given to do this? Days? Months? Years? What do we do in the interim?

    johnnyagreeable (c49787)

  37. Ted Cruz is a snake’s snake. His genius level legal mind knows full well that the allegations that he is spouting are lies. They all know it.

    They lost in court. How many times? How many?

    noel (9fead1)

  38. Which one of those did you want/not believe should be on the ballot and why?

    Whoosh.

    His point was that Hawkins was kept off in WI and PA, so your question only matters to the oblivious.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  39. Ted Cruz never fails to meet my expectations.

    noel (9fead1)

  40. WHY NOT FORM AN ANTICIPATORY COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE THE COMMISSION???

    Four years ago we called this a Special Counsel.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  41. Biden is the next president. In less than 3 weeks. This is a show. Just like the leftists have done when Bush was elected, re-elected and when Trump won 4 years ago.

    I have no problem with Republicans giving back to the Democrats what the left does first. The rules must be the same for both parties. I don’t support unilateral disarmament and I’ve never known a conservative who did.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  42. In less than three weeks this will fail, Trump will be gone, and for four years we’ll be left with the dufus you voted for and his nut job fellow travelers.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 1/2/2021 @ 12:18 pm

    Biden will be gone within 2 years. It’ll be the Kamala and Obama show (since it’s his staff being put back in place).

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  43. The idea that we remain a real democracy is much more important than whether we use preferred pronouns. It’s more important than any other issue. Putin and Trump have greatly harmed the cause of democracy. This is not what the GOP is supposed to be about. What does it really mean to be a Republican? What does that word even mean?

    Dustin (4237e0) — 1/2/2021 @ 12:00 pm

    Politics is downstream of culture. Breitbart knew this and pushed it. I said it when the Supreme Court ignored the law and pushed their version of marriage on society. It’s just going more and more extreme till we push back. The insanity will never end unless we make it. Look at what is going on in our universities and you’ll see what society will be like in 10 years.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  44. Marci wrote

    I don’t see Cruz as wanting to overthrow the election. I really don’t. In many conversations with his supporters the majority feel that the issue is the possibility of fraud and how honest and sincere investigation of possible fraud is poo-pooed and shut down without an attempt to get to the bottom of it.

    There have been many attempts to find Fraud.
    -Comparisons of dominion counts to hand counts in multiple jurisdictions.
    -Recounts in multiple jurisdictions.
    -Audits of signature matching in Cooper county.

    None of these has found anything that looks like systemic fraud.

    Was there fraud? Yes. There always has been to some degree (by dishonest people, no party affiliation needed). Was there enough to change the election? I don’t think so

    Agree 100%

    I think there was more than has been told and I think that judges and election officials have gone out of their way to shut down real investigation.

    What do you want for a ‘real investigation’? Many of these people you think shut this down are partisan republicans and Trump supporters. I feel like no investigation will be ‘real’ until if gives you the results you want.

    The protest of the election is simply one more way to make people realize that honest hard working Americans have given testimony to what they saw and have been called liars without any investigation into their testimony.

    Are you talking about Melissa Carone? Because her testimony was investigated. It was part of the evidence brought forward in a lawsuit in Detroit. The judge didn’t find her credible and after reviewing all the evidence brought forward by Trump and the State found against Trump.

    No forensic audits have been done despite the ability to do so. Why not?

    I honestly don’t know what ‘forensic audit’ means here, but I’ll bet when you spell out what you want done we can find places where it was. In general I expect the first thing would be a hand recount of the ballots. In most states (including MI, GA, and WI) this is possible. In MI and WI it’s done automatically if the margin is low enough. Since the margin wasn’t that low Trump would have to request and pay for it. Despite claiming fraud and raising over 200,000,000$ he chose not to request recounts in MI. Where he did request recounts it showed that official count was correct.

    I would think that BOTH sides of the aisle would want to verify the lack of fraud, and if there was expose it.

    There are lots of process to find and fix fraud and errors. These processes were in many cases created by GOP controlled legislatures. They’ve been used and didn’t show wide spread fraud. I think republicans are lying about fraud and won’t accept any process that doesn’t give them the results they want.

    As it stands half the nation is going to think Biden stole the election.

    No process will produce evidence to change what these people think. It’s as pointless as debating if the earth is round or flat.

    This letter of intent is just a show and we all know it. It’s to draw attention to what they believe is a real issue.

    \

    I think it’s to raise money from gullible people and help position Cruz for 2024. But I’m glad that most of the left thinks it’s for show. Because I think there would be a strong reaction if people thought the GOP was actually trying to steal the presidency. You yourself said fraud didn’t determine the outcome. But here Cruz is trying to steal it.

    Reality is Ted Cruz doesn’t represent California so it really doesn’t matter what California thinks of him at this point about this issue. He represents Texas and what I see around me is much of Texas (exception Austin and Houston) saying…. hey, there’s a problem here with this election so maybe he’s doing his job representing his constituents (?). Is he killing any future political aspirations of being President? Probably with people telling him to go to hell, definitely. Well to quote Davy Crockett…. “Y’all can go to hell, I’ll go to Texas.”

    When AOC, or Abrams, or whoever bring forward a proposal that the votes of Texans shouldn’t be counted because Texas illegitimately suppressed the votes of minorities it will be justified by exactly this type of thinking.

    If no one acts as if the Constitution and Democracy matter then they won’t matter. That’s the path this is leading us down.

    Time123 (653992)

  45. @32 The letter clearly states they will NOT contest the election IF an electoral commission to investigate the possible fraud is formed. SO WHY NOT FORM A COMMISSION? We are throwing money away on gender-studies in Pakistan so why not settle this and give evidence that fraud either did or didn’t happen?

    Marci (405d43) — 1/2/2021 @ 1:34 pm

    Trump appointed judges rejected these arguments. If Trump fanatics won’t accept that, they aren’t going to accept a bipartisan commision. I don’t give my toddler chocolate to go to bed if she screams for it. We give you guys an inch, you will not say OK and be good tomorrow.

    Let’s just watch and see if Trump’s call for a “wild” Jan 6, a tantrum that will probably shed American blood, is something we should encourage.

    Remember the same folks who are happy to screw up our peaceful elections are happy to run around the grocery store without a mask. it’s the same people. They are not characterized by selfless service to this great nation, to say the least.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  46. I should add I’m fully aware the call is for an “audit” to take place, but there’s zero chance a satisfactory audit can be conducted in such a short time frame, especially given that the losers have had almost two months now to find evidence to support their claims, and have utterly failed to do so.

    As a result, only the naïve fail to see any “audit” as a precursor to claiming the audit was not comprehensive enough. If, as people like Marci purport to claim, you have no reason to suspect widescale fraud, there is zero reason to delay anything. Investigate away after that. (Keep in mind that Republican litigator Ben Ginsberg has said there is no reason to suspect the kind of widescale fraud that would be needed to uncovered to stop the transition. See here.)

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  47. Biden is the next president. In less than 3 weeks. This is a show. Just like the leftists have done when Bush was elected, re-elected and when Trump won 4 years ago.

    I have no problem with Republicans giving back to the Democrats what the left does first. The rules must be the same for both parties. I don’t support unilateral disarmament and I’ve never known a conservative who did.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/2/2021 @ 1:49 pm

    Nothing the Dems have done looked anything even remotely like this. Even in the Bush/Gore debacle the Dems didn’t approach anything like this. These aren’t antics restricted to back benchers and loons from safe districts.

    Time123 (653992)

  48. I disagree Time123. Boxer had the full support of the leaders of the party. As did the others. Remember all the show trials in the basement of Congress to “convict” President Bush.

    On and on.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  49. @35 Marci, they are legislators. If Ted Cruz wants to form an election commission, he can convince enough of his colleagues and they can, together, form an election commission. What he is doing instead is dishonest grandstanding that undermines the entire foundation of the country.

    Nic (896fdf)

  50. You’re in good company P:

    Keith Olbermann
    @KeithOlbermann

    10 Traitors, led by @tedcruz, are demanding an “emergency ten day audit of the election returns in the disputed states.”

    There are no disputed states. There is only an attempted Trump coup.

    I call for the arrest of @tedcruz, @RonJohnsonWI and the other 8 on charges of sedition.
    _

    Ive heard some Never-Trumpers are so deranged they’re hoping the Dems take the two GA Senate seats.
    _

    harkin (8fadc8)

  51. Jonathan Turley
    @JonathanTurley
    ·
    Dec 31, 2020
    Sen. Dick Durbin just denounced the electoral vote challenge by Sen. Josh Hawley. I do not support the challenge but is this the same Dick Durbin who heaped praise on Sen. Barbara Boxer when she made the same objection against certification in 2004?…

    _

    harkin (8fadc8)

  52. Hoi Polloi, are those democrats or are they Proud Boys?

    If those had been Proud Boys, our media would have let us know. Instead, there is no outcry from Democrats or the major political pundits.

    No, these are the same left wing rioters that have been terrorizing Portland for months.

    And show no signs of stopping.

    I guess it was the Proud Boys who defaced St. Peter’s in NYC the other night, right?

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  53. @46, JohnnyA, I think the reason people want an ‘audit’ is because ‘audit’ isn’t defined well and sounds impressive.

    Is it a recount?
    Is it a hand recount?
    Is it a comparison absentee signatures?

    It’s BS that Cruz is putting forward to raise money from the gullible and try to get the right of the other crooks ahead of 2024.

    Time123 (653992)

  54. Ive heard some Never-Trumpers are so deranged they’re hoping the Dems take the two GA Senate seats.
    _

    harkin (8fadc8) — 1/2/2021 @ 2:05 pm

    On Nov 4 I was glad that the Dems didn’t win GA. Now I’ve lost all faith in the GOP as a party. I’ve never liked or trusted Trump. But the number of GOP leaders I hold in similarly low regard is growing rapidly.

    Time123 (653992)

  55. @50, Keith Olbermann is a moron and his opinion is really really really dumb, and I am dismayed to learn that actual politicians in power are calling for the arrest of Cruz et al. I want to complain about Senator Olbermann and his fellow Senators, but it seems he isn’t a Senator? Frankly, I didn’t even know he ran in this most recent election, but I’m sure it must have happened because otherwise this comment seems super irrelevant.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  56. I disagree Time123. Boxer had the full support of the leaders of the party. As did the others. Remember all the show trials in the basement of Congress to “convict” President Bush.

    On and on.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/2/2021 @ 2:04 pm

    I don’t remember that. I also don’t remember Bill or Obama doing anything like what Trump is doing now.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  57. I disagree Time123. Boxer had the full support of the leaders of the party. As did the others. Remember all the show trials in the basement of Congress to “convict” President Bush.

    On and on.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/2/2021 @ 2:04 pm

    Boxer was an embarassement.

    But let’s grant your point to some extent. There’s nothing inherently evil about the GOP doing this. The democrats will surely do the same thing in the future.

    There’s a huge difference between a couple on the fringe trying to stop the election outcome they disagree with, from a huge chunk of the GOP doing it. Obviously this behavior has normalized the practice. But there’s nothing in Cruz’s stinky soul that isn’t also in the souls of most politicians.

    What we are losing today is a tradition, a norm, that we transfer power peacefully, that we just try again in two years in the next election instead of fighting tooth and nail. That mature calmness is the real patriotism.

    I remember attending one of those show trials of Bush in the basement of the Rayburn House Office Building. I was taking notes for the GOP, even though it was on CSpan and if you look it up you can actually see a much younger me there with my notepad. I recall the sense from democrats then that Gore should be president (this went away in 2004, since Bush got the popular vote). NJRob is right that there’s the same spirit on the left. But I don’t think the issue with peaceful transition of power is about Trump or left v right or social issues. i think it’s really a lot simpler.

    Try again in two years, you Trump fans. the election will be here quick. What Cruz and pals are doing right now is wrong. We all know Biden won. It wasn’t that close.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  58. I guess it was the Proud Boys who defaced St. Peter’s in NYC the other night, right?

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/2/2021 @ 2:08 pm

    I think they were busy defacing Churches in DC

    The Proud Boys and Antifa are both violent scum. The biggest difference between them is that Antifa are fringe a holes and the Proud boys have become mainstream GOP embraced by the sitting president.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  59. I’m with Marci on this. Let team Trump exhaust all the Constitutional avenues to which they have recourse. Especially because they may be wrong. And don’t give me any “justice delayed is justice denied” arguments, because the wheels of justice may grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine. Let this play out in Congress, lest it play out in the streets.

    felipe (630e0b)

  60. Ive heard some Never-Trumpers are so deranged they’re hoping the Dems take the two GA Senate seats.
    _

    harkin (8fadc8) — 1/2/2021 @ 2:05 pm

    I actually don’t know a single person who likes Loeffler in power. I think it’s kinda cute that you call it “so deranged” that someone wouldn’t support her. Do you really like her in power? If the GOP is opposed to the most fundamentally american concepts, there’s no partisan argument for her. So why support her?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  61. This is beautifully said

    What we are losing today is a tradition, a norm, that we transfer power peacefully, that we just try again in two years in the next election instead of fighting tooth and nail. That mature calmness is the real patriotism.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  62. @48

    “Sen. John Kerry, the Democratic nominee for president, released a letter Wednesday saying he would not take part in the protest (objection).” “The House voted 267 to 31 to reject the objection.”

    Boxer clearly did not have the full support of the leaders of the Dems and only a small portion of any of the Dems at all supported it. It was not acceptable either, but at least no one of significance in the party supported it, where-as now…

    Nic (896fdf)

  63. Time123, exactly. There’s no “audit” that will satisfy people who think it’s worth delaying certification. You can’t simultaneously claim “I don’t really believe there’s widescale fraud” and want to have an “audit” to look into it. They’re incompatible. And even if you think there is widescale fraud, an audit can’t possibly uncover it if the prior two months have not. The losers of this election have had every motive to look.

    JohnnyAgreeable (c49787)

  64. I’m almost tempted to rejoin the Republican party so I can have the pleasure of quitting again…

    Dave (1bb933)

  65. The Proud Boys and Antifa are both violent scum. The biggest difference between them is that Antifa are fringe a holes and the Proud boys have become mainstream GOP embraced by the sitting president.
    Time123 (53ef45) — 1/2/2021 @ 2:16 pm

    The number of Proud Boys are minuscule when compared to the number of Antifa/BLM “activists” that are rioting in cities across the country.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  66. Glorious.

    W/apologies to the great Tom Lehrer:

    Gather round while I sing you of Canadian Cruz,
    A man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience;
    Call him unprincipled for changing his views,
    “Principles, schminzables” coos Canadian Cruz.

    Don’t say that he’s hypocritical,
    Say rather that he’s quite political;
    “A challenge this week, by 2024 it’s old news!
    Memories are short,” coos Canadian Cruz.

    Some have harsh words for his bait-and-switch ruse,
    But some say their attitude should be one of gratitude;
    Like the wife and the father; their honor abused,
    So easily betrayed by Canadian Cruz.

    You remain a conservative hero;
    Showing Texans you’ll stand up for zero;
    “In Calgary ‘oder’ Houston, I’ll outlast any boos,
    And I’ll sucker you again,” coos Canadian Cruz.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  67. The Republicans attempting to ignore the outcome of the election, using contrived lies, and as circular evidence that many Republicans believe their lies, are supported by Citibank, UPS and AT&T. These companies should be held accountable for what their support has done, ideally reaching a statement that they have reconsidered this support.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  68. Instead, they cite the fact that some citizens distrust the election results — while failing to mention that they themselves have sown that distrust, with no basis whatsoever.

    Hey, they learned from the best. Their argument bears an uncanny resemblance to the one Trump himself made when he declared Gonzalo Curiel too biased to judge Trump University, since anyone who’d been called the names Trump called people of Curiel’s descent would simply have to be. At least these a-holes have polling to confirm that their well-poisoning project worked. Trump was just nakedly projecting his own bigotry.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  69. @65 I have no idea what their numbers are. But I’m sure the endorsement of GOP leadership is helping them grow.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  70. Dave (1bb933) — 1/2/2021 @ 2:24 pm

    I can say the same about both the Reps and the Dems.

    felipe (630e0b)

  71. History will not be kind to the names of the people involved in this deeply unpatriotic, dangerous, and abominable disregard of the votes of tens of millions of American citizens.

    Disregarding the votes of the other tens of millions of American citizens is just fine because they’re not really Americans, the swine. They should be beaten with sticks and driven out of the country. (They deserve worse than that, in fact — but now we’re getting to the part of my opinion that is unpublishable.)

    Jerryskids (999ce8)

  72. Jerryskids, it’s not disregarding the voters for Trump to count their votes, count Biden’s votes, and go with the guy who won. Trump’s supporters were heard. There just weren’t enough of them to win. They aren’t victims here.

    Now, as for people who support Cruz’s behavior, I think some of them are deeply misguided, manipulated into believing this is a legitimate constitutional protection, or that voter fraud was massive and Biden isn’t really the winner. They have a responsibility to our country to expose these ideas to counter arguments. These ideas do not stand up to scrutiny. They just don’t.

    When Trump’s lawyer is calling for the VP to be shot because he won’t go along. When Trump is calling for the Proud Boys to stand by until “wild “Jan 6, it’s time to take ownership of what we really are doing as Americans.

    In just two years, the GOP gets a chance to vote again, in another fair, secure election. Let’s go with that approach to 2020.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  73. The Turtle is wet-kissing Tedtoo; this is certainly a distraction from Republicans denying a stand alone vote on $2,000 Covid relief checks for desperate and struggling American citizens. A nation of wusses following a national media chasing bright shiny objects down rabbit holes.

    Americans spray paint graffiti on doors. Palestinians would kidnap; Iranian would burn effigies in cages; Israelis would fire missiles at themselves and shout ‘oy-vey;’ Russians would put poison to work; Chinese magic would make the problem people just disappear; Britons would remain calm and carry on while Germany would invade Poland again, just for the hell of it. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  74. Reality is Ted Cruz doesn’t represent California so it really doesn’t matter what California thinks of him at this point about this issue. He represents Texas and what I see around me is much of Texas (exception Austin and Houston) saying…. hey, there’s a problem here with this election so maybe he’s doing his job representing his constituents (?). Is he killing any future political aspirations of being President? Probably with people telling him to go to hell, definitely. Well to quote Davy Crockett…. “Y’all can go to hell, I’ll go to Texas.”

    In light of Cruz’s attempts to overturn a legitimate election by acting in an un-American fashion, I have to say that, in this case, this probably isn’t the compliment of Texas that you think it is.

    Dana (cc9481)

  75. > I have no problem with Republicans giving back to the Democrats what the left does first.

    When did more than half of the Democrats in the House and more than a quarter of the Democrats in the Senate announce that they planned to object to the counting of electoral votes? When did a Democrat file a lawsuit against the Vice President which *outright lied* by claiming that four state legislatures had appointed multiple slates of electors?

    Democrats have, at most, lobbed a small hand grenade on this subject. Republicans are lobbing a nuclear bomb and as a result it is reasonably likely that within our lifetimes our electoral system will have lost so much legitimacy that it will be abolished and replaced with an undemocratic one, from one party or the other.

    *All of you* who are supporting this, regardless of your motivation, are participating in and assisting in the destruction of the Republic.

    Gohmert, in particular, should be expelled from Congress and jailed because of his tweet last night.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  76. That said, I think Pelosi and McConnell should put together an investigation, and I think Biden’s AG should appoint a special prosecutor to conduct an investigation.

    No matter what happens between now and Jan. 20. at least a third of the country is going to believe the election was stolen. This is true whether Biden is inaugurated or Trump is inaugurated.

    That belief is *in and of itself* seriously dangerous to the legitimacy of the system and to the continued existence of the Republic. A special counsel investigation, and a joint congressional investigation, may not be enough to restore legitimacy. But I think we have to *try*.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  77. American democracy, like American money, works because we believe it works.

    As I said in the other thread, it is a matter of time before the democrats lose the EC but win the popular vote, and the GOP just issued a devestating blow to the norm of following the EC. Trump doesn’t care that the GOP is losing a precious source of much of its political power, or that America’s fundamental notion of fairness and accepting elections has been damaged. We know why Trump doesn’t care. Why doesn’t Cruz care? Same reason, sadly. All of these guys are just like Trump. Plenty of democrats are just like Trump. Selfish to a point we normals can’t comprehend.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  78. Great comments, aphrael.

    I am not sure Ghomert committed a crime. Popehat and a few others are scoffing in frustration at all the talk of ‘Sedition’ and I’m trying to work out mentally where the line is where speech could be sedition (as in the actual criminal offense).

    Twitter’s the wrong place to ask, and indeed I’m not getting any good answers as to where the line is.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  79. History will not be kind…

    ROFLMAOPIP.

    Ask the 1988-quitter-for-plagiarism-now-the-Plagiarist-Elect.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  80. DCSCA, that’s a good point. Biden is not a man of great character or ability.

    He is president only because he opposed the worst president we’ve ever had. He was nominated only because he was the moderate, in an era when the GOP is losing millions of conservatives.

    He got very lucky by circumstances. We’re not exactly carving his face on any mountains.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  81. This is beyond the pale.

    I have defended Senators, including Cruz, for accommodating the president of their own party since they don’t have the same options of cecoupling that I do.

    But there is n defense of this. None. At this pint the GOP needs to split. Romney, Collins, Murkowski and others need to resign from the party and form their own caucus. Maybe it’s a lost cause, but it’s a battle that needs to be fought.

    They cannot pay the Dane forever, and this time the Dane wants too much.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. @80. He is president only because he opposed the worst president we’ve ever had.

    Except he’s not.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/worst-american-presidents-721460

    And, “let me just say…”

    “What America needs are leaders to match the greatness of her people.” – The Big Dick, 8/8/68
    “I shall the presidency effective at noon tomorrow.” – The Big Dick, 8/8/74

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  83. But there is n[o] defense of this. None.

    Except there is:

    2024.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  84. This is true whether Biden is inaugurated or Trump is inaugurated.

    No, if Trump is inaugurated, 2/3rds will be certain it was stolen and the country will collapse.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  85. Oh thoughtco says Trump isn’t the worst president ever? Well never mind my bad, DCSCA.

    meanwhile casket makers are out of wood, unable to complete orders, the WH plan for the vaccine is that they did not know they needed a plan, and Trump is calling for the Proud Boys to get wild on Wednesday.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  86. Not that there is a chance, in that case, of Trump living so long as to be inaugurated.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  87. Except there is:

    2024.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/2/2021 @ 3:42 pm

    Come on, brother. You know Kevin’s right. this is a seriously effed up way for the GOP to handle Trump. At some point it isn’t just about strategy. We have to be a country on some level.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  88. Biden is the next president. In less than 3 weeks. This is a show. Just like the leftists have done when Bush was elected, re-elected and when Trump won 4 years ago.

    I have no problem with Republicans giving back to the Democrats what the left does first. The rules must be the same for both parties. I don’t support unilateral disarmament and I’ve never known a conservative who did.

    I would have expected nothing different from you NJRob. You’ve always been willing to do evil as long as you could identify one or two people on the other side who did something similar.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  89. And you always can. I think you just want to do evil and you’ll find any pretext you can do to so.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  90. Dustin,

    Trump will be on that list, but not number one. Buchanan, Pierce and Fillmore combined to drive the country to civil war over slavery, which they all supported and tried to prop up.

    There is no disaster as bad as civil war.

    Andrew Johnson followed Lincoln and tried to appease the South and thwart Reconstruction, which he largely did. Many of the racial problems we inherited came from his refusal to allow freedmen to gain compensation from their enslavers.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  91. Politically, the GOP is trying to hang the same asterisk on Biden’s term that the Democrats tried to hang on W after 2000. I thought it stank then, and I think it stinks now (and more so).

    Trump should be damn happy that they didn’t do this to him in 2016, when he won the exact same way.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  92. @90: Of course, if Trump were to somehow “win”, there would be a civil war (or allowed secessions) so maybe he might make #1.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  93. @90: Of course, if Trump were to somehow “win”, there would be a civil war (or allowed secessions) so maybe he might make #1.

    If he were declared the victor, I would support removing him by any force necessary.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  94. At least 2000 was a close election, really close, this one isn’t. Trump was blown out.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  95. I don’t think anyone has fallen further down than Ted Cruz. I was strongly supportive of what he did as a Senator prior to the Trump presidency, as I thought he was a strong constitutional conservative. I also supported his presidential bid in 2016. Little by little, he compromised his principles and integrity throughout the past 4 years. It is maddening because Cruz isn’t dumb by any stretch and knows this is all a farce. As for the others, it’s disheartening to see Cynthia Lummis, as she actually had a solid record when she was in the House. I’m not worked up about Tommy Tuberville, as he is just a MAGA shrill, and I don’t expect him to be anything other than that. As for Cruz, I don’t think there is anything that I regret more than having supported his political career in the past.

    I’m going to make note of who votes to object on 1-06, and I’ll just have to remind myself constantly to never support any one of them for elective office ever again.

    HCI (92ea66)

  96. Trump was blown out.

    For a number of reasons, popular vote is meaningless.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  97. OT: For what insane reason does Georgia have a run-off election after Congress convenes? Or a run-off at all. If they applied the same rules to the Presidential contest, they’d be running that off on the 6th as well.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  98. For a number of reasons, popular vote is meaningless.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/2/2021 @ 4:11 pm

    One of those reasons is that the electoral college count is respected. Not a good strategic move for the GOP to stab that poor EC in the back like this. Trump once again harms those who were loyal to him.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  99. Damn right, Justin. A number of Trump’s attacks (like the TX suit) struck at the root of the EC.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  100. 2020 was in a lot of ways a good year to be a nevertrumper. We got the judges, the president, the divided government. I think in coming years we’ll be pretty unhappy as the same stuff Trump innovated becomes more powerful. I use Kamala as an example because she’s a boogeyman to the right, but it could be anyone. If she as VP quotes Team R arguments in a few years, and those same people say she’s wrong, the press will make it seem like an open question, a legitimate exercise, maybe proof of sexism and racism.

    you actually could screw with the popular vote totals far more easily than you could steal an election with the EC, especially if your party is the urban one. Ted Cruz has thought this through and decided he just doesn’t care. He’s going to get ahead of the crowd on this one.

    I keep seeing folks say this isn’t a big deal. It’s just a show and Biden will be prez, so calm down. I disagree. We will look back at this month as the reason Trump was so very bad for this country.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  101. For a number of reasons, popular vote is meaningless.

    Trump was blown out in the popular vote and the EC vote.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  102. I am unsurprised to see Cruz be the ultimate Trump suck-up. The writing was on the wall when he chose Trump loyalty over defending his wife from Trump’s ugly insult of her. Trump’s corrupt nature and thirst for power has certainly revealed what has always been just under the surface in so many.

    Dana (cc9481)

  103. Trump was blown out in … the EC vote.

    By the same amount he won in 2016, which I refused then to call a “blowout.” In both elections a few hundred thousand votes across 5 states would make it go the other way.

    The irony here is left for the reader.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. Trump’s corrupt nature and thirst for power has certainly revealed what has always been just under the surface in so many.

    I’m sure you meant “Cruz’s” there.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. I am going to try real hard to support whoever the GOP candidate is in 2014. If it’s Cruz that many be hard (if it’s Trump it will be impossibler than before). But I hope that it’s not someone who decided to take this BS to the wall.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  106. My view of Cruz is the prim and proper spinster lady who never holds hands when she goes out walking with a beau and only got in a family way because she used the bathtub after a gentleman had used it. An unctuous phony and nowhere near as attractive as he wants people to think he is. But I did fall for his act in 2016.

    nk (1d9030)

  107. Romney’s statement is excellent:

    The egregious ploy to reject electors may enhance the political ambition of some, but dangerously threatens our Democratic Republic. The congressional power to reject electors is reserved for the most extreme and unusual circumstances. These are far from it. More Americans participated in this election than ever before, and they made their choice. President Trump’s lawyers made their case before scores of courts; in every instance, they failed. The Justice Department found no evidence of irregularity sufficient to overturn the election. The Presidential Voter Fraud Commission disbanded without finding such evidence.

    “My fellow Senator Ted Cruz and the co-signers of his statement argue that rejection of electors or an election audit directed by Congress would restore trust in the election. Nonsense. This argument ignores the widely perceived reality that Congress is an overwhelmingly partisan body; the American people wisely place greater trust in the federal courts where judges serve for life. Members of Congress who would substitute their own partisan judgement for that of the courts do not enhance public trust, they imperil it.

    “Were Congress to actually reject state electors, partisans would inevitably demand the same any time their candidate had lost. Congress, not voters in the respective states, would choose our presidents.

    “Adding to this ill-conceived endeavor by some in Congress is the President’s call for his supporters to come to the Capitol on the day when this matter is to be debated and decided. This has the predictable potential to lead to disruption, and worse.

    “I could never have imagined seeing these things in the greatest democracy in the world. Has ambition so eclipsed principle?”

    I would add that Trump’s call for his supporters to come to the Capitol was made with the specific intention to raise a ruckus. To what extent that might be will be left up to the individuals/groups in attendance. And when harm is done, Trump will claim that he had no idea tragedy would happen and wash his hands of it.

    Dana (cc9481)

  108. Now, I mean this seriously, even if the metaphor is vulgar. It could be that in 2016 Cruz really did think himself to be a better person than he really is, and it took Trump to show him his true self. With the resultant transference. Fifty Shades Of Orange, so to speak?

    nk (1d9030)

  109. As I said in the other thread, it is a matter of time before the democrats lose the EC but win the popular vote, and the GOP just issued a devestating blow to the norm of following the EC.

    Please. Democrats have been crying for four years about getting rid of the Electoral College. Why? They won the popular vote with Hillary but lost the EC.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  110. 54. Time123 (653992) — 1/2/2021 @ 2:11 pm

    But the number of GOP leaders I hold in similarly low regard is growing rapidly.

    There is Mitch McConnell:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/31/us/politics/ben-sasse-election-results.html

    Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the majority leader, has discouraged lawmakers from objecting to the results, and on Thursday, he told members of his conference on a private call that he considered his vote on Jan. 6 the most consequential one he would ever cast, according to two people familiar with the discussion.

    I am not sure why he said it wouuld so consequential.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  111. 95.I don’t think anyone has fallen further down than Ted Cruz.

    Think better; exhibit A: The Big Dick-

    “The greatness comes not when things go always good for you. But the greatness comes when you’re really tested, when you take some knocks, some disappointments, when sadness comes. Because only if you’ve been in the deepest valley can you ever know how magnificent it is to be on the highest mountain.” ― Richard Nixon, 8/9/74

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  112. Please. Democrats have been crying for four years about getting rid of the Electoral College. Why? They won the popular vote with Hillary but lost the EC.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 1/2/2021 @ 4:56 pm

    No, Hoi Polloi, Joe Biden personally rejected those objections in 2017. The norm of accepting the winner was old and respected.

    But now, the GOP has muddied the issue. If Kamala quotes these arguments in Jan 2025, what can you say about it? The press will say it’s a ‘controversial move pionered by Ghomert and Cruz’ and question why it’s ‘suddenly’ off limits when a black woman refuses to count states that ‘disenfranchised persons of color’.

    Do you really not see this happening?

    Respecting the real outcome of elections is good for both sides.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  113. Because Republicans hold the Senate, Sammy, and it’s important that both the House and the Senate tell the butt gerbils to go to Texas or go to Hell, and I join Mark Twain and Philip Sheridan in advising them to choose Hell. (At least until the FDA and the EPA have cleansed the locoweed from the water supply, and present company excepted as always.)

    nk (1d9030)

  114. @107 As for Trump calling his supporter to descend on DC, I guess we really should have taken him at face value when he told the Proud Boys, to “stand down and stand by” As low esteem I’ve held Trump for his entire life, he still manages each day to lower that bar.

    tla (34ebeb)

  115. Pence has made his choice:

    “The Vice President welcomes the efforts of members of the House and Senate to use the authority they have under the law to raise objections and bring forward evidence before the Congress and the American people on January 6th.”

    Dana (cc9481)

  116. Meanwhile, the 5th circuit (in a panel chaired by Judge Higginbotham) rejected Gohmert’s appeal with a perfunctory one paragraph per curiam which basically said “the district court was right that Gohmert doesn’t have standing”.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  117. Good piece by Peter Wehner in The Atlantic earlier this week. In this extract, the first paragraph is about Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley. The last describes a few (though too many) people posting here.

    The problem with the Republican “establishment” and with elected officials such as Josh Hawley is not that they are crazy, or that they don’t know any better; it is that they are cowards, and that they are weak. They are far more ambitious than they are principled, and they are willing to damage American politics and society rather than be criticized by their own tribe.

    I’m guessing that many of them haven’t read Nietzsche, but they have embraced his philosophy of perspectivism, which in its crudest form posits that there is no objective truth, no authoritative or independent criteria for determining what is true and false. In this view, we all get to make up our own facts and create our own narratives. Everything is conditioned on what your perspective is. This is exactly the sort of slippery epistemic nihilism for which conservatives have, for more than a generation, reproached the academic left—except the left comes by it more honestly.

    The single most worrisome political fact in America right now is that a significant portion of the Republican Party lives in a fantasy world, a place where facts and truth don’t hold sway, where “owning the libs” is an end in itself, and where seceding from reality is a symbol of tribal loyalty, rather than a sign of mental illness. This is leading the party, and America itself, to places we’ve never been before, including the spectacle of a defeated president and his supporters engaging in a sustained effort to steal an election.

    Purple Martin (bce78a)

  118. Veering off topic:

    85. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/2/2021 @ 3:49 pm

    , the WH plan for the vaccine is that they did not know they needed a plan

    The real problem is that everybody was busying themselves with devising a plan that couldn’t work. The whole idea of having an order of priority was stupid, stupid, stupid. It would be like trying to hand out food and water in a disaster area after a hurricane or flood in some pre-planned order of priority. The goods stay in warehouses that way.

    At least Florida has seen the light. Yes, there’s some chaos but it’ll be straightened out in a few days and more people will get vaccinated. By the way, vaccination does not immediately prevent disease – it probably even makes a newly acquired case of Covid worse until about 4 or 5 days have passed after the vaccination have passed (Because the body is now given more work to do) although I would further guess that taking some vitamins and minerals can help mitigate that.

    The best way to get out the vaccine would be a combination of the way Israel and the United Kingdom did it.

    Israel got 12% of its population vaccinated so far, but will call the process to a halt from January 10 to January 31 so that everyone can get their second dose in the time frame indicated (!); the United Kingdom will postpone the second dose, saying that in fact there’s good reason to believe, not only that a first dose is pretty good, and that a delay will not harm the effectiveness after the second dose but the sweet spot is likely 8-12 weeks later. Of course Dr. Anthony Fauci is totally against this approach saying it doesn’t comport with the “science” when the only reason it doesn’t is that the vaccine companies decided to test things out this way to maximize their chances for quick approval; but there is no actual reason to think there’s anything special about the 3 or 4 week period, but just that it is about the minimum amount of time you need to wait to get a booster shot effect and they wanted a booster shot to maximize the degree of effectiveness. Probably only older people would benefit from that.

    The UK regulators also say that the second dose can be that of a different vaccine (that would do some god, but it won’t stimulate the production of the same antibodies)

    The UK is expected to approve the Oxford/Astra Zenica vaccine soon – in the United Sates that may take till late spring. Moderna has not been approved in the UK. In the United States the Johnson and Johnnson vaccine is next – it needs to get approved by January 19 (and not merely on a course for approval sometime in February) or Biden’s appointees will throw up roadblocks.

    And the UK is just now beginning trials of the antibodies. I guess the science is different in different countries. Countries do imitate each other to hide how arbitrary approvals are but not completely. Pfizer got approved in the UK, in the EU, and in Canada and in the US at about the same time.

    In Boone County West Virginia about 40 people were given the Regeneron antibodies instead of a vaccine. What’s most interesting about that is that this tells me that neutralizing monoclonal antibodies don’t really have to e given through an IV hookup.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  119. Pence has made his choice:

    No he hasn’t really, or he hasn’t gone all the way. First of all, he opposed this attempt to force him to make a decision, which meant really to refuse to count some Electoral votes. Now he praises what he cannot stop and does not say the objections are merited.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  120. I take your point, Sammy. Pence’s statement is carefully cowardly. But that’s the choice. Pence won’t stand up to the folks saying he should be executed for his insufficient loyalty. He welcomes them to do what they gotta do. He isn’t going to lead at all.

    That’s a choice for sure. He could say, right now, that he realizes Joe Biden won. That he realizes that Ted Cruz is being dishonorable. That there are Republicans who support the idea of elections, and he looks forward to doing his duty like Joe Biden did his, when Trump was elected. If Mike Pence did that, he would help the country. It doesn’t really seem so ridiculous to me, but I know I’m pretty weird.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  121. > Pence’s statement is carefully cowardly.

    Imagine the world in which Pence had come out and condemned Trump for his post-election shenanigans.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  122. 121. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/2/2021 @ 6:20 pm

    Pence’s statement is carefully cowardly. But that’s the choice. Pence won’t stand up to the folks saying he should be executed for his insufficient loyalty. He welcomes them to do what they gotta do. He isn’t going to lead at all.

    He doesn’t want to come to an open break with Donald Trump.

    At least not until mid or late afternoon of January 20. And possibly for as long afterwards as he can manage.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  123. @59

    Let this play out in Congress, lest it play out in the streets.

    felipe (630e0b) — 1/2/2021 @ 2:17 pm

    This.

    Now, I’ll agree that this is all kabuki theater.

    I’ll even agree that this is a major “tit for tat” escalation that this’ll be the norm every four years.

    Should the Trump-supporting Republicans be better than this? Absolutely.

    However, I don’t see it in such stark term as Patterico does. To me, this is the normal evolution of politics these days.

    There are disconnects everywhere… such as:

    Right v. Left

    Big government v. smaller government

    Marxist left v. Liberalism

    Conservatives v. neo-conservatives

    Until all the various factions start working together on common goals, these escalations will continue.

    We’re so lucky that it *is* confined to the lawfare and congressional “realms”. Because, otherwise, I’m afraid the unthinkable would commence.

    whembly (c30c83)

  124. Imagine the world in which Pence had come out and condemned Trump for his post-election shenanigans.

    aphrael (4c4719) — 1/2/2021 @ 6:23 pm

    Granted it’s a plot George Lucas would write.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  125. Sammy Finkelman — the man is Vice President of the United States. If Trump died tomorrow, he would become President.

    Not being willing to break with Trump *on the question of stealing an election* is an act of cowardice that demonstrates him to be unfit for public office of any sort.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  126. Heh! Why should Pence give up the hope that a heart attack or stroke will make him the next President? He has no other.

    nk (1d9030)

  127. Because he swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, *and he is forsworn*.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  128. 121. aphrael (4c4719) — 1/2/2021 @ 6:23 pm

    Imagine the world in which Pence had come out and condemned Trump for his post-election shenanigans.

    Trump maybe could take away his helicopter, his security briefings and his White House pass.

    Trump anyway may be planning on firing a lot of people on or shortly before January 19 while trying to give more secure jobs to others: (or maybe some on his staff came up with this)

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/531181-omnibus-doesnt-block-trump-order-allowing-burrowing-of-political

    The October order creates a new class of federal employment, Schedule F, that would allow agencies to more quickly fire career staff for performance issues. But it would also allow current political appointees to bypass the merit system required for entering the federal service.

    Democrats had sought to block agencies from implementing the executive order before the Jan. 19 deadline — the day before President-elect Joe Biden assumes office…

    ,,,Biden would be able to reverse the order, but it’s clear many agencies are already pushing ahead with slotting political appointees into the new category…

    …Critics fear the Trump administration could use the order to more easily fire career staff, while the incoming Biden administration would still have to build a case to dismiss crossover political appointees for performance issues even with the diminished workplace protections. [they couldn’t be fired merely for political reasons]

    Maybe the firing part was just in anticipation of a second term.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  129. 125. aphrael (4c4719) — 1/2/2021 @ 6:36 pm

    Not being willing to break with Trump *on the question of stealing an election* is an act of cowardice that demonstrates him to be unfit for public office of any sort.

    Of course he knows that the election isn’t going to get stolen, so that makes it kind of easy for him – if he doesn’t look past this election.

    If anything, his staying in Trump’s good graces gives him more power to prevent any violation of the constitution.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  130. Sammy got it right the first time. If the objection is in writing and signed by both a Senator and a Representative, it’s out Pence’s hands so he might as well put his best podex osculator face on.

    nk (1d9030)

  131. Pence had the opportunity to not be a cowardly toady, 1,443 chances actually.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  132. About barbara boxer’s 2004 vote to support the congressional black caucuses objecting to the election in ohio. In 2000 congressional black caucus could not get boxer to join in as dnc and democratic establishment were told not to rock the boat by their donor class. In 2004 the situation was not as grievous and theft not so clear cut as to risk open rebellion by the black caucus who were fed up with third way corporate democrats telling the base that their donor class was more important than them. The base has become more powerful every election since. The latest black women in south carolina and later southern primaries not donor class or dnc shenanigans got biden the nomination despite AOC rallying the latinx vote for bernie sanders. In 2024 latinx will fight it out in democratic primaries with black vote.

    asset (fe5811)

  133. @87. The problem isn’t the country; it’s the political parties and their lock on methods and procedures, Dustin. It’s one of the reasons a Trump-type was elected in the first place. Have hard data on this. Just look at the usual swamp creatures- which the plagiarist-elect is one of– and their actions over aid to Americans; they’re right back at it; McConnell, Schumer, Pelosi and McCarthy are playing with the lives of the citizenry. Trump’s not “the evil” here; they are.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  134. Because he swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, *and he is forsworn*.

    There exists a cynical response to this.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  135. Heh! Why should Pence give up the hope that a heart attack or stroke will make him the next President? He has no other.

    He could call Trump a traitor on live TV and that would not harm his chances. Might even hurry it a bit.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  136. Pence agreed to run as VP, twice. He could have passed up the second run at the very least. Having done that, there was no “cowardly” about it; he was wearing the Trump armband.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  137. @80. Biden is not a man of great character or ability.

    Again:

    “What America needs are leaders to match the greatness of her people.” — The Big Dick, 8/8/68.

    Glorious. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  138. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/2/2021 @ 8:42 pm

    That seems like a fair point. Trump is still quite the awful bastard, the worst president in history (Kevin’s point that the civil war causing ones were worse is very arguable). He’s clearly a symptom of a deeper problem.

    Indeed, that the options were Hillary vs. Trump and then Biden vs. Trump, and next election, probably two jokes again, really shows us the political parties have failed.

    but education has failed us too, the media has too. you point this latter point out all the time.

    And that has an effect on the people. Folks really have no idea what to think, so they are easily manipulated. They see the emotion behind the lie and believe it, like a mark.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  139. 127.Because he swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, *and he is forsworn*.

    Resolved and swore to go on a diet 24 hours ago; am eating pizza now. That went well, too. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  140. I don’t have any issues with what they are doing. Fight fire with fire. Exhaust all possibilities. Expose fraud and verify votes. Implement voter ID and restrict absentee voting.

    Patrick (2111d5)

  141. @138.Trump is still quite the awful bastard, the worst president in history…

    Historians zero in on James Buchanan as the worst U.S. president, Dustin. And the wise ones know assessments are best made 30-plus years after their out of office or dead. In my lifetime, The Big Dick was by far the worst; Texan LBJ a close second w/an assist by Ike, chiefly for fostering the destruction of faith in public institutions.

    He’s clearly a symptom of a deeper problem.

    No. He’s is channeling anger fueled change. He may be a bent penny to many, but a bent penny is still legal tender and spends. Another corporatist, not a traditional politician, will carry his banner forward. And that contrast will be stark w/t likes of the plagiarist-elect and his swamp creature minions. John ‘reporting for duty’ Kerry alone is a tip off.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  142. Historians zero in on James Buchanan as the worst U.S. president, Dustin.

    Yeah that’s definitely going to change though.

    you make good points with Nixon and LBJ (LBJ was also a ridiculous cheater).

    No. He’s is channeling anger fueled change

    It’s very PC of me to say, but it’s racism he’s channeling. It’s folks who want Muslim bans and think Mexicans are rapists and are really mad a black guy was a relatively scandal free, liked president. It’s true that flyover Americans are frustrated with a corrupt government, with sneering at their values, all that, but that isn’t what changed the GOP into Proud Boys Stand By for Wild Wednesday. It’s something dumber.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  143. @138. The film ‘Network’– written as a farce- became prescience, Dustin. Having worked at/with ‘Big Media’ in Manhattan and LA, as the transition began between public serviced, loss-leader news divisions were forced to become profit centers when the 80’s takeover craze and deregulation poisoned the well [Reaganomics] the loss of solid, tenacious, investigative journalism and the drive to maintain objectivity suffered greatly. There are no Donaldsons; no Cronkites in journalism today– but plenty of Sybil The Soothsayers. Neither of them would be caught dead gaily sipping champagne in Times Square a la Anderson Cooper. It has become a ratings driven, entertainment fueled sucker baited side show. And Trump knew- and knows- win or lose, exactly how to play it for all it is worth. He is a creation of that era. Ever the showman.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  144. @142. He’s not channeling anything average people don’t mutter over their McNuggets in Salt Lake City, Upper Sandusky or Hooterville, Dustin. And even knowing that, Obama won w/white voters and multi-cultural candidates- men, women- and a few between bases and not sure which way to run– hold office.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  145. He’s not channeling anything average people don’t mutter over their McNuggets in Salt Lake City, Upper Sandusky or Hooterville, Dustin.

    I agree it’s a huge problem, and awful folks have channelled their political fortunes on it before.

    And even knowing that, Obama won w/white voters and multi-cultural candidates- men, women-

    Yeah that really upsets some folks. Worse, Obama seems to have been re-elected and is pretty well liked. It’s really irritating to the kind of political leader who would tell you Obama was secretly born in Africa. You know any like that?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  146. I agree it’s a huge problem, and awful folks have channelled their political fortunes on it before.

    Indeed; ‘awful people': monkey hear, monkey do:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/07/31/ronald-reagan-racist-conversation-richard-nixon/1876134001/

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  147. DCSCA, In the end, what exactly did Trump accomplish? He got a lot of low IQ voters mumbling about the swamp, fake news, and conspiracies that make no sense. He’s exposing and manipulating ignorant people. Somehow you find this both entertaining and brilliant….as if increasing polarization, decreasing what we expect out of our leaders, and creating a cult of personality are great developments. Trump is a media creation…not a Reagan creation. The media can only hyperventilate and rage for so long until people need a spastic release. Thus born the great outsider….the great dealmaker….the swamp drainer (whatever that exactly means). His one big deal….the epic wall…he botched and had to scale to fence upgrades. His trade deals are more bluster than substance. His reguatory reforms have root until January 20th, then fall to the wind. And his cabinet appointments were a revolving door of disillusioned servants happy to survive the chaos.

    He will be known for firing the FBI director for the “Russian thing”, for getting impeached for the “Ukraine Biden thing”, for failing to truly lead on COVID, for pardoning his buddies, and for trying to engineer a Constitutional crisis in his waning hours of his term, all the while manipulating the eager OANN crowd….who had to move on from FNC because it wasn’t National Enquirer enough. There’s nothing entertaining about our democracy cratering because mediocrities like Sean Hannity and Rachel Madow need eyeballs…with Hannity making a shocking $25M/yr from FNC…for being a propagandist. The country doesn’t need PT Barnum….it’s a serious, dangerous place that doesn’t require someone winging it for giggles. It’s good he lost. It’s bad that the GOP is slow to turn….but the future is not Trump…..

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  148. > Kevin’s point that the civil war causing ones were worse is very arguable

    I used to argue that. It was my standard response to anyone claiming Bush was the worst President, or Obama, or even Trump for most of his presidency (although, honestly, for Trump it was a reluctant admission made through gritted teeth because i knew intellectula honesty compelled it even though i didn’t like it).

    Trump’s behavior since the election has caused me to stop believing it. Buchanan’s failures were failures of inaction. Trump’s undermining of the Republic has been the result of action.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  149. > we really should have taken him at face value

    As I recall, the left complained about this and tried to warn about it, but we were told that we were making a mountain out of a molehill and that we should take Trump seriously but not literally.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  150. Buchanan’s failures were failures of inaction

    Uh, no. He actively lobbied the Supreme Court on the Dredd Scott case, when the Court was considering ruling for Scott. He thought that ruling that slavery was legal everywhere (which Dredd Scott said in effect) would end the slavery controversy for all time. Instead it made the election of Lincoln and the southern secession inevitable.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  151. Now, a word from the Devil’s Advocate (no, not Rudy):

    What Cruz et al are doing is not “trying to overturn the election” — they know that neither the Senate nor the House are going to vote to count the bogus electors. It cannot happen. So they are going to throw a tantrum about the election, which a sizable number of their constituents believe was rigged. And, more to the point, a majority of those constituents who voted for them. In that they are acting as true representatives.

    The point, of course, is to prepare the battlespace for 2022 and 2024. “We wuz robbed!” is an age-old rallying cry. It also forces the Biden administration to defend its legitimacy when it would rather be doing other things, and will make the prosecution of Trump frought with danger going forward; a political powder keg covered with gasoline.

    Now, taking off the Devil’s hat, it also dials the tribalism up to eleventy. Things that can’t go on, won’t. But I see no good path out now.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  152. @147. Start w/effectively neutering the modern ideological conservative movement and making the likes of the Goldbergs, Wills, Charens, Frenchs, etc., essentially irrelevant.

    You must have slept through Ronnie’s go-go, gilded-grifted-greed-is-good 1980s, AJ;

    Trump is a showman; a wholly Reagan creation.

    “Ronald Reagan is a person who values the performance and who thinks of himself as a performer. After he was elected governor, he was asked what kind of a governor he would make. He said, “I don’t know. I’ve never played a governor.” When he left the White House, he was asked about how acting had helped him be president and he said, “I don’t understand how anybody could do this job without having been an actor…The source of Reagan’s inspiration was less the Constitution than the movies.” – Lou Cannon, CSPAN Booknotes, 5-12-91

    ‘but the future is not Trump…’

    ROFLMAO if wishes were horses beggars would ride:

    “The future is now.” – Ray Bradbury, 7-20-79

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  153. Boxer had the full support of the leaders of the party.

    Boxer didn’t have the support of Kerry, the guy who lost. This is a much different situation.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  154. Buchanan was actually a fairly smart guy, who had served in multiple high-profile positions and was almost nominated for president in 1852.

    And to his credit, unlike Trump, Buchanan belatedly started doing the right things during his last days in office.

    I certainly have no love for the guy, “a northern man of southern principles,” as they referred to the Northern Democrats who cozied up to the slave power, but it’s not clear to me that he could have done much to prevent the civil war.

    An expansive decision in favor of Dredd Scott, throwing the future of the institution of slavery into doubt, would have triggered southern secession just as surely as Lincoln’s election did. And for that matter, I don’t think Buchanan had any lawful means to prevent the Republicans from winning the 1860 presidential election, either.

    One area where Buchanan may deserve criticism (I’m not sure of what he knew and when he knew it) is for allowing the southerners in his cabinet to stockpile arms in the southern states, in anticipation of rebellion.

    I am reading an interesting book on the 1850’s at the moment, so I’m looking forward to learning more about Buchanan’s culpability, or lack thereof.

    Dave (1bb933)

  155. Dave,

    I put Fillmore and Pierce in that same group as they all had a part to play. It may well be that the slavery issue was bound to cause disunion, but the feckless politicians of the day did not help.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  156. What book, btw?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  157. i don’t think mr. senator rafael edward “ted” cruz (R-The Chicken Ranch), who always sits with his knees together, feels he is risking anything

    if it goes sour, he will say he only did it to keep trump from nuking denmark

    if he thinks it helps him with the schnitzel-slurpers, he will claim that josh hawley may have been the fustest but he brung the mostest

    (because that’s how canadians talk southern)

    nk (1d9030)

  158. it will be like when he debated mr. senator marco rubio (R-Havana) in the 2016 primary

    when rubio said that he introduced a bill to bar illegal immigration by red-headed tibetan dwarfs

    and cruz said that he was the one who made sure that it included both those with freckles and those without freckles

    and mr. governor chris christie (who cannot under any circumstances be confused with ms. governor kristi noem) said “sh!t like this is what got us trump”

    nk (1d9030)

  159. i think we need an audit of whether harvardtrash ted covered up his fathers role in the kennedy assassination

    despite the complete lack of evidence these are serious allegations mr nk

    very serious indeed

    and dont get me started on mitt romney

    Dave (1bb933)

  160. I would have expected nothing different from you NJRob. You’ve always been willing to do evil as long as you could identify one or two people on the other side who did something similar.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 1/2/2021 @ 3:52 pm

    And you always can. I think you just want to do evil and you’ll find any pretext you can do to so.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 1/2/2021 @ 3:53 pm

    I think you should apologize for these horrific remarks.

    NJRob (9bee56)

  161. What a number of Republican Senators are doing, is endeavoring to appear to be supporting President Trump’s efforts to overturn the election, without actually doing so.

    With the idea that Trump supporters are more ignorant and uninformed, and even maybe Trump himself for some of that, will think they were trying, while the more informed people who are living in the real universe will know that they didn’t. That they didn’t even say outright that the election was stolen from Trump!!

    But will Trump leave them alone and let them get away with this? He’ll always have more for them to do and say.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  162. The thing is, Ted Cruz and others are lying not really about the election, which they don’t commit themselves to aby view of the facts, but about what is realistic ( a 10-day audit? ) and the law (states cannot change their Electors after the elector have voted.

    It’s a pure play toward ignorance.

    Yet nobody is saying that, I think.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  163. Ted Cruz is pretending everyone will be reassured somehow by congress telling us if the election is good, even though no one trusts congress as an authority on anything. Ted Cruz is pretending he has an urgent need to search for the truth, but he waited until right before the electors are counted to demand an investigation that would delay something and create a crisis. I agree this is a pure play toward ignorance, Sammy. It’s enough smoke to convince the partisan zealots that anyone criticizing Ted just doesn’t want to know the truth.

    Texas is not covering herself in glory with her representation.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  164. DCSCA, your thesis is not persuasive. You’ve shown no linkage of how pro-growth, pro-deregulation policies (started under Carter by the way) of the 1980’s has led to an electorate that was willing to choose a reality TV star over experienced governors and Senators. Yes, Reagan was an actor but he was also governor of California and a political spokesman, with very little resemblance to Trump in style or substance. Reagan was unambiguously for free trade and opening markets; Trump mindlessly complains about trade deficits and closing down trade deals. Reagan negotiated massive immigration reform which included an amnesty provision for millions; while Trump advocated for walls, Reagan was trying to tear them down. Reagan was unquestionably against totalitarian regimes and the spread of communism; Trump applauds dictators and ignores the strategic challenges of Putin. Reagan’s pro-growth policies were bipartisan (he never had the House), negotiated in good faith with Tip O’Neill, produced 19M jobs over the decade, and helped turn the corner on stagflation and the economic malaise of the Carter years. Trump’s tax legislation wasn’t even Trump’s and many conservatives question its timing and magnitude. Trump’s plan got no bipartisan support as he has none of the political deal making skills of the Gipper.

    Did Reagan support or encourage more actors or celebrities to get into politics? There’s no record that I can find. Did he support attacking other Republican candidates using conspiracies and mocking labels? No. Did Reagan put his family in White House jobs that they were hardly qualified for? No. Would Reagan be proud of Trump or would he be mortified by what Trump said, tweeted, and did? Reagan’s classy behavior makes this one pretty clear. Did Reagan create Talk Radio, Fox News, and the Religious Right, and put them all on a path that led to Trump? Reagan certainly created excitement about conservatism which in turn created a demand for alternatives to left-leaning journalism. But it’s hardly fair to lay on Reagan where that media trajectory went 30 years out. So, sorry, I just don’t see an inevitable linkage between Reagan and Trump. If The GOP was becoming a cult of personality, does Bush I, Dole, Bush II, McCain, and Romney really suggest that the next choice would be Trump? Really?!!!

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  165. It is disturbing that so many people actually think the election was stolen. While I believe they are wrong, I don’t think repeated assertions are going to fix things. Headlines like “Cruz, cadre of GOP senators demand probe of baseless fraud claims” (WaPo) are more likely to enrage than convince.

    And yet, this may be one of those things (e.g. evolution) that no amount of evidence will suffice to change anyone’s mind. We can talk about how terrible it is for Trump to cause such division, but the nature of the election — with wild changes in outcomes after backroom counting of absentee votes — lent itself to just this kind of question.

    I don’t think much can be done this time, but we are whistling past the graveyard if we do not do our utmost to create a better system for handling early and absentee voting. The current system, with its subjective decisions, opaque process and uncertain provenance of ballots is just not satisfactory.

    In a world where we can have a high-definition video conference call among 50 people on 5 continents, for free, this kind of reliance on 19th century procedures is intolerable going forward. It may be that we are happy to see Trump be the loser here, but that happy result will not always be the case.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  166. If he were declared the victor, I would support removing him by any force necessary.
    Patterico (115b1f) — 1/2/2021 @ 4:02 pm

    No, no ,no, sir! Turn back, that way leads to madness, and ruin for us all. I will not follow you there.

    felipe (630e0b)

  167. AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 1/3/2021 @ 8:07 am

    If The GOP was becoming a cult of personality, does Bush I, Dole, Bush II, McCain, and Romney really suggest that the next choice would be Trump? Really?!!!

    What DCSCA is really saying is it (and also the Democrats maybe too) was trending to considering for president people with less political experience, and that he wrote something years ago (I am not sure exactly what he did – I think he said it was some kind of a thesis) that predicted that a businessman would win the presidency, or maybe it was just a major party nomination, about this past decade, so his thesis was vindicated by the election of Donald Trump in 2016.

    Perot in 1992 was a sign of it too, he said. For various reasons, he did not consider Herbert Hoover in 1928 or Wendell Wilkie in 1940 to be precedents, but this was something new.

    as for actors, this was something that was particular to that place and time (California, mid 1960s) and before Ronald Reagan there was Senator George Murphy. (1964 election to 1970 election)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Murphy

    I see he was also a former president of the Screen Actors Guild.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  168. I suggest a networked system, using open-source software and cryptographic security can be designed to run over the internet securely and robustly. One can enter one’s vote from home, from a library, or from an official polling place operated by the registrar. If you make it easy enough, there is no reason to spread the voting period over more than a few days. A narrow time window adds to the authenticity of the decision, as the same information is available to all.

    The current system using the postal mail, eyeball comparisons of signatures (that change), hand-counting, and month-long voting windows (for inane reasons) are so antiquated they offend even this Social Security recipient. What must the kids, who have always had PCs, think?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  169. Dave, bought the book

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  170. Ron Johnson was claiming on Meet the Press that he wants an investigation only of things that have not been explained. Wrong wrong wrong. Because even if something has been satisfactorily explained (to whom>) the allegation could still be repeated. What’s needed is a book, or encyclopedia, that goes into each and every one of these issues.

    Johnson also claimed that 42,000 people had voted two times in Nevada, (as an example of something to look into) but Chuck Todd stopped him, without explaining what that was based on and why that was wrong. That;s no help.

    Somebody told me he gets into arguments with his family (and his mother tells him not to talk politics) and they say to him he’s listening to CNN (rather than, I guess, the evidently more reliable sources they are listening to.)

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  171. It’s enough smoke to convince the partisan zealots that anyone criticizing Ted just doesn’t want to know the truth.

    It is cynical and designed to fail, and will energize the base for “getting even” in 2022. Is this evil? Well, yeah, but both sides are engaging in the same evil use of lies and rabble-rousing (e.g. Ferguson). I dislike all of it, but I think few in DC can cast stones here.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  172. What must the kids, who have always had PCs, think?
    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/3/2021 @ 9:00 am

    They will think what we teach them to think! – Public school educators

    felipe (630e0b)

  173. I am reminded of arguing with a young-earth creationist. No matter what evidence you present, it is either the work of the Devil or is dismissed as being incomplete. Fossil record — there are gaps! Fill a “gap” and you have simply created an additional gap. It is not possible to convince people of certain things. Their minds are mud forts to your cannon.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  174. They will think what we teach them to think! – Public school educators

    Given the last year and the sheer incompetence of public school distance learning, they may come to hate computers.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  175. SF, The nature of politics, technology, and the media has changed a lot from the 1980’s and Reagan. I can understand a thesis which connects changes in media to a preference for an outsider corporatist. I just don’t see a rational connection from Reagan to Trump. Reagan did not make the electorate desperate. Trump got elected in part because some Republicans were made desperate about Obama, socialim, and the evil Hillary….and thought conventional candidates like McCain and Romney were the problem. I don’t see this dynamic relating to Reagan. Reagan would have been fine with conventional candidates…and would have been mortified by everything Trump.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  176. Question: Given the tenor of comment over at Instapundit, what must UT think of Reynolds teaching ConLaw? Sure, he has tenure, but that does not mean he gets his pick of courses.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  177. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/3/2021 @ 9:12 am

    An astute observation, sir! The quickest way to ruin something useful is to make it “educational. Teachable moment, anyone?

    felipe (630e0b)

  178. Trump got elected in part because some Republicans were made desperate

    As much as I hate to admit it, the connection to Reagan is clear. Reagan opened the world to global capitalism, with very little concern for the needs of Labor. Those with limited ability to compete, in a world where money moved out and immigrants moved in, suffered greatly. After 40 years of this, two generations of would-be tradesmen and factory-workers — people who did not want (and could not benefit from) college degrees — were desperate. Trump said he’d fix it, the Democrats offered more dependence. It wasn’t socialism they rejected so much as having to submit to the state for their livelihood.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  179. Ted Cruz is pretending everyone will be reassured somehow by congress telling us if the election is good, even though no one trusts congress as an authority on anything.

    Trumpers trust no one but Trump. Their belief in him is veritably religious. If the most ardent shills for Trump start to express any difference from Trump or any reservations about fighting to the finish for him, they’re called traitors and Deep State hacks. If Congress unanimously said that Biden won fair and square, Trumpers would say it shows how vast and deep the corruption is.

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  180. One way for Romney to fight back: Move to expel every Republican Senator who signs up to this.

    Downside: He has a little chance of success.

    Upside: He has a better chance of success than the objectors do, and it might energize sane Republicans in 2022.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  181. You know what else Ted Cruz did recently?

    He kept out of the National Defense Authorization Act a provision that would have entitled people from Hong Kong to (more readily available) immigration opportunities or political asylum.

    He said that was because the Chinese Communist Party might send some spies.

    Of course the spies that are important are enrolled in colleges or have specific jobs or come as businessmen.

    They would send a few spies but that would be to spy on the other emigrants from Hong Kong.

    So anyway all that Congress did was include a sense of the Congress resolution (Sec. 1701ff. Section 1704 is an elaboration of last year’s Sec 1260F) that the Government of the People’s Republic of China should abide fully by its commitments in the Sino-British Joint Declaration of 1984 to allow the people of Hong Kong a high degree of autonomy to govern Hong Kong and do X Y Z etc. This year some sanctions were imposed but there is a lot more this year including a complaint that back in 1999, China overrode a decision by Hong Kong in a way so as to limit more who from China could go to Hong Kong. And complaints from this year as well.

    The “Hong Kong Autonomy Act” was incorporated wholesale into the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021 which veto of by President Trump was overridden on Friday, January 1, 2021.

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/4049/text

    Here it is as the House bill:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6395/text

    I think they are supposed to be identical but they don’t seem to be.

    Last year’s bill is here:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1790

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  182. There wasn’t any controversy about early voting this election, but maybe that was because nobody wanted to create any controversy. Early voting uses the same poll site registration list as election day voting, and is (usually?) combined with a centralized and computerized voter list with someone signing in using something similar to a UPS device for a package. If registered voters are limited to a single poll site this could even be done by using paper sign in systems.

    It is an extension of Election Day and uses the same system and routine. If a registered voter can use more than one early voting site then they have to do something different.

    In New York City there were approximately one fifteenth the number of polling places for early voting as there was for Election Day but every registered voter could use only one. A possible problem with early voting is long lines if not enough people or machines (mainly scanners) are assigned to a polling site. You can have virtually no one voting, too.

    In New York early voting was used fir the first time in 2019, and is confined to nine days, from the Saturday a week and three days before Election Day to the Sunday two days before Election Day. In all states that have it, I think, there is always a one day gap between the last day of early voting and final Election Day.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  183. I suggest a networked system, using open-source software and cryptographic security can be designed to run over the internet securely and robustly…

    The current system using the postal mail, eyeball comparisons of signatures (that change), hand-counting, and month-long voting windows (for inane reasons) are so antiquated…

    This would be the most convenient solution, and potentially secure, probably secure. If it’s networked, it can be compromised. I won’t say hacked because most of the hacking today isn’t “hacking”, it’s social engineering. Solarwinds was dead strait hacking…after social engineering let them in there door. It’s less a problem for the voter, and more for the tabulation side.

    Signature verification software of mailed/printed ballots is a better check than humans, every time. Make a human choose the edge cases, but the automation wouldn’t throw an edge case unless it falls outside of 95%, or whatever, similar. But again, what if it was truly compromised, what if…

    So we fall into the position of old ways, which also allows the Trumper to say “Count/Don’t count the vote” wherever a different outcome is needed. Saying they want a recount, lose, want an audit, lose, then want…a complete/hand/computer recount different than the other recount, an different audit than the audit that they did. Look at Georgia:

    ‘I just want to find 11,780 votes’: In extraordinary hour-long call, Trump pressures Georgia secretary of state to recalculate the vote in his favor

    In a recording obtained by The Washington Post, President Trump alternately berated, begged and threatened Brad Raffensperger to overturn President-elect Joe Biden’s win in the state.

    Trump doesn’t want an accurate audit/recount, he just wants it changed to a win (GA wouldn’t give him that btw)

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  184. “I just want to find 11,780 votes.”
    Donald J. Trump, Man of Principle, 1/2/2021

    President Trump urged fellow Republican Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia secretary of state, to “find” enough votes to overturn his defeat in an extraordinary one-hour phone call Saturday that election experts said raised legal questions.

    The Washington Post obtained a recording of the conversation in which Trump alternately berated Raffensperger, tried to flatter him, begged him to act and threatened him with vague criminal consequences if the secretary of state refused to pursue his false claims, at one point warning that Raffensperger was taking “a big risk.”

    When will our GOP leadership call Trump out for his bullying and unhinged behavior? This needs to stop, and Cruz and all the suck-up fascist objectors need to think twice about what they’re doing.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  185. I have long suspected that the reason Barr, that’s Trump’s Attorney General William Barr for those of you in Schnitzelhof, said that there was no fraud and then parachuted out is because all the fraud his investigation found was by Trump, with the example at Paul’s 185 one of the milder instances.

    nk (1d9030)

  186. @184, @185 — dang, you guys were just a few minutes ahead of me on that “find the votes” call.

    It sickens me that people I had seen as intelligent and honorable can keep supporting a sociopath and pretend it’s for the sake of election integrity.

    You might think Biden’s policies will be awful, but that’s the price of having a country where the voters choose and you don’t get your preferred dictator for life. My closest relatives are pretty much in agreement here: we don’t favor Dem policies on the whole, but we think another Trump term would worse.

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  187. Kevin, the reason so many of the constituents believe there was fraud is because the leadership has continually reinforced that idea.

    Nic (896fdf)

  188. Yeah I do wonder if Trump’s so sure the other side cheated because his cheating didn’t work. He didn’t campaign like he was trying, yet after the election he’s desperately trying. It’s like a kid who is cocky because he plans to cheat. One thing’s for sure, Trump would absolutely try to rig an election and can’t see any reason why everyone shouldn’t play that kind of game. Another thing’s for sure: Trump does not want America to be successful after he’s gone. He does not want it to be “great” here. He’s not our friend.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  189. Klink @184:

    Open-source software ensures that the software isn’t doing the cheating. It’s not intuitive, but proprietary software is less likely to be fully validated. If each voter has a unique cryptographic key — even one generated by the same software at the polling booth — it becomes unfeasable to doctor the vote.

    Yes, of course you can have people handing their key to others, but they can do that now with ballots. Junior will still vote senile dad’s ballot if he wants. Not sure if you’ll ever get away from that. As far as hacking, most of that is people giving other people their passwords, but two-factor systems make that hard to do. Almost all “hacking” is made possible by someone being lazy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  190. Yeah I do wonder if Trump’s so sure the other side cheated because his cheating didn’t work.

    In The Sting, Robert Shaw asks, “What am I supposed to do, call him out for cheating better than me?” Back in the day, even movie villains had a sense of shame. If there’s anything Trump stands for, it’s shamelessness.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  191. because all the fraud his investigation found was by Trump,

    For years I took the position that Dems were more likely to cheat because politics was more like religion to people on the left; because of a “by any means necessary” philosophy; and because Dems have always favored voting procedures that make it easier to slip in fraudulent ballots. Trumpism has changed my view, at least to some degree.

    It bothers me that Trumpers take for granted that 1) any fraud must have been committed by Dems; and 2) Dems must have cheated massively. I don’t like that knee-jerk imputation of bad faith to those who disagree politically — and it’s done by people who are forever whining that other people say mean things about their motives.

    Trumpers argued in 2016 that desperate measures were necessary to save America. They haven’t abandoned that idea. They’ve been saying that they need to fight dirty because the other side will always fight dirty. The “by any means necessary” philosophy is on full display among the die-hard Trumpers. And Trumpers have made politics into an enterprise that doesn’t just substitute for religion but links up directly with religion. Trumpers believe that fighting for Trump = fighting for God, and anything they do for God’s side can’t be wrong.

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  192. Kevin, the reason so many of the constituents believe there was fraud is because the leadership has continually reinforced that idea.

    Maybe. Maybe not. Many people think that the election of 1960 had some serious issues, at least with the popular vote, even though Nixon refused to press the point.

    Trump was running the table on Biden — it was never supposed to be that close — and then all of a sudden, in the last states to report, his leads gradually evaporated as they counted an ever-increasing number of mailed ballots in the back room. It is not hard to suspect fraud in that, given the controversial history of such things in state-level elections.

    Had Trump eked out a narrow EC victory, again, while losing nationally by millions of votes, again, I am sure that there would be lots of questions from the Biden camp.

    This is not made up out of whole cloth — the system is too opaque for a society that expects full information.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  193. This phone call is amazing. Every day this bozo does something that would have ended a previous presidency. Team D needs to play this like Trump would: steal those headlines, change the subject. Impeaching Trump first thing would suck the wind out of this Wild Wednesday Proud Boys thing. Keep it simple, play the tape in the House, vote to impeach, let Cruz give speech after speech about how it’s totally cool to fix elections.

    This is a gift from God, a solution for all those weak republicans who needed a reason to break ranks they can explain on a bumper sticker.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  194. 188. Nic (896fdf) — 1/3/2021 @ 10:51 am

    Kevin, the reason so many of the constituents believe there was fraud is because the leadership has continually reinforced that idea.

    It;s not just that, or even very much of that. Very few elected officials (outside of Donald Trump) are saying that.

    It’s talk radio show hosts, and some written material as well. Elected officials like Ted Cruz are getting into this late.

    By the way, the lying is not just about the election – it’s about the law, and about the feasibility of certain courses of action.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  195. Well, I live next to, and in the past worked in, Republican DuPage County, and I know better. It’s Al Capone’s Chicago as far as dirty politics by Republicans go.

    nk (1d9030)

  196. 179, yes and that goes double/triple for any Thatcher-to-Brexit Standard Bearer connection, with a touch of utter contempt for the white working class by the Iron Lady.

    urbanleftbehind (9b7d0c)

  197. Yes, of course you can have people handing their key to others, but they can do that now with ballots. Junior will still vote senile dad’s ballot if he wants. Not sure if you’ll ever get away from that. As far as hacking, most of that is people giving other people their passwords, but two-factor systems make that hard to do. Almost all “hacking” is made possible by someone being lazy.

    No one should worry about Junior’s activity influencing the outcome, well at least any more than in Georgia in the 1860s.

    two factor is not security, in most defense/FS (where I’d put election security as at least as important) applications you have three factor for both the client and the back end is moving to stricter 3 factor or 4 factor (4 factor has been complicated by Covid but we’ve repositioned it a bit.)

    So it’s
    1. Something you’re given–login (I’d add device to this for most instances)
    2. Something you know–password
    3. Something you are–biometrics
    4. Someplace you are at–This has changed from location to secured device, but I’d not refactor that since I consider that part of 1.

    It’s not so much that you need 3 factor on the front end for voting, the network layer can secure that, but 4 factor on the back end managing it. The backend is the problem, you have to trust the admin side. There is no way the local boards of elections that are responsible can do any of that, so it will have to fall to an outsourced provider, whether that be a new federal system, or IBM/Dominion/Tata…

    Then the conspiracy delusionists will just point to the feds or the provider, which Trump is already doing, instead of blaming the local election boards, which Trump is also doing. So, for the delusionists, it doesn’t matter. They want to decide the election before hand by define voting populations to just their folks (Dems and Repubs), or like Trump, fix it after the fact.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  198. @193 Except they weren’t counted in the backroom, they were counted in the front room, with cameras and observers. And we were able to see it on TV because they showed it to us. It wasn’t opaque at all, some people just didn’t like the outcome so they pretended it was.

    Deeply did I delve into the back of the cave, shivering as the cool air penetrated my armor against it. I carefully made my way past poisonous fungus and molds, trying not to breath any in, lest I become deadly ill. When I reached the back, I found an ordinary looking container. Inside was the cask that held the gold. Reverently, I removed the container and the cask, retreating through the cave, careful not to disturb its other inhabitants. When I finally returned to the light, I traveled, low, across a distance to a place of safety, where I could place the container and remove the treasure.

    The cask appeared seamless, but I was able to discover a weak spot and applied to precise amount of force to release the gold and its protective coating onto a previously prepared surface. In nearly no time at all, the protective coating began to harden. When it had achieved optimum hardness, I felt it was ready to be moved to the special vessel I had ready to transport it. I placed it in the vessel and transported it to it’s awaiting new owner. The new owner seemed quite pleased to have received the treasure that was the fruits of my labor.

    How do you like you fried egg?

    (my fridge is not actually full of mold and/or fungus. It is my least favorite thing, so I am ruthlessly vigilant against it.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  199. Trump was running the table on Biden — it was never supposed to be that close — and then all of a sudden, in the last states to report, his leads gradually evaporated as they counted an ever-increasing number of mailed ballots in the back room. It is not hard to suspect fraud in that, given the controversial history of such things in state-level elections.

    This is a fallacy, Trump wasn’t winning, he wasn’t running the table, THE VOTES HADN’T BEEN COUNTED, they wouldn’t have been counted in 2016, 2012, 2008…

    It’s called counting, that’s like calling it based on who wins the first vote, or that it’s just the choice of the VP. That’s not how any of this works.

    It requires the people complaining to actively be stupid, like not knowing what counting means.

    Just listen to Trump, it’s from YESTERDAY, it’s in his words, he knows/knew he did/was going to lose, he always has been talking about winning it after the fact. He’s been telling everyone that he was going to cheat since 2016, and he’s still doing it. Heck, Trump’s request yesterday is specifically illegal, it is a felony.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  200. @165. ROFLMOPIP.

    The data is what it is, AJ. 1+1=2. Not 11.

    “Reality. What a concept!”- Robin Williams

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  201. @195 Conservamedia has certainly not been honest or helpful in this area.

    Nic (896fdf)

  202. 193. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/3/2021 @ 11:10 am

    and then all of a sudden, in the last states to report, his leads gradually evaporated as they counted an ever-increasing number of mailed ballots in the back room. It is not hard to suspect fraud in that, given the controversial history of such things in state-level elections.

    Except that everybody knew this would happen – you could look at the party registration of those people who requested absentee ballots and all polls told you that – and Trump was making it happen more, by telling people not to vote by mail.

    And the process is not opaque in many states – or not so opaque so that you could commit massive fraud undetected – but the major media were not going into how the process worked. Because they didn’t know and maybe because it was too much work. It was hard even to find out whether a mail in vote or in person vote took priority. They just didn’t go into this stuff, by and large.

    And this is the thing: Biden lost votes because some of his voters used mail-in voting. Ballots could be spoiled; ballots could fail to qualify as ballots; ballots could arrive late.

    In Pennsylvania (where you had Publisher’s Clearing House Sweepstakes style rules, and people who were inexperienced at voting by mail casting votes by mail) Democrats figured he’d lose about 10% of the votes cast for him that were sent by mail.

    They started figuring out ways they could cure problems (including notifying the party a voter was registered in of the problem – some discovered by weighing the ballots to determine if it was missing the inner envelope) and telling people to vote in person by provisional ballot, and, as it got close to Election Day, changing their messaging to voting in person.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  203. And there was the issue of changing rules, sometimes in a way, that if there was a conspiracy to commit voter fraud, could facilitate it:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/ballots-can-t-be-tossed-out-over-voter-signature-court-n1244585

    Pennsylvania’s Supreme Court ruled unanimously Friday on a key concern surrounding an avalanche of mailed ballots, prohibiting counties from rejecting them if the voter’s signature on it does not resemble the signature on the voter’s registration form.

    …In her court filing, Boockvar had said that any such rejections pose “a grave risk of disenfranchisement on an arbitrary and wholly subjective basis,” and without any opportunity for a voter to verify their signature before their ballot is disqualified.

    Republican lawmakers and the Trump campaign had argued that the law is clear that election officials must compare the information on the mail-in ballot envelope, including a voter’s signature, to a voter’s information on file to determine a person’s qualifications to vote.

    Pennsylvania has no law mandating that voters get an opportunity to fix an irregularity with their ballot before it is disqualified, and discussions about it in the Legislature in recent weeks deadlocked in a wider partisan fight shadowed by the presidential election.

    In a statement, Pennsylvania’s attorney general, Democrat Josh Shapiro, called the decision a “win for voters.”

    They said they could rely on – well basically that it was mailed to an address of a registered voter and the request often included a driver’s license number. Or other proof of identity.

    Some voters say that signing on a digital screen when getting or renewing their driver’s license is awkward and results in a signature that doesn’t resemble theirs on paper.

    County election officials say people’s signatures change over time, with age or medical conditions.

    They also say questions about whether a voter’s signature is valid have historically been rare and, because of that, there has never before been a debate about it until now, with coronavirus concerns fueling interest in voting by mail under a year-old law that vastly expanded it.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  204. Meanwhile, Covid exists, more than 2,000 people are dying a day (almost 4k during the weekdays, I think people are still dying on the weekends though). So maybe a bit of focus on Covid would be helpful, like tell his followers, like both twitter and Jesus, to wear a mask. Just so they’re alive to vote for him in 2024.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  205. @168.Right, Sammy. The data is there. It’s not a left/right partisan thing. The trend for IEO candidates w/no previous EO experience from corporate/business backgrounds rose across the board at all levels; first spike was post Civil War; then a steady pattern rising post WW1 at IEO levels from mayor on up into Congress in contrast w/t the decline in other backgrounds. The projections indicated a major party would nominate a winning candidate w/no previous IEO experience for the top spot by 2000. Trump was elected in 2016. The pattern is there. The fight between the ‘corporatists’ and the ‘partisan swamp creatures’ is in full battle now. Trump short-hands the term to ‘Deep State’ but expect another corporatist to w/no previous IEO to run and win in cycles to come. Theater aside, how the senators are reacting to the stewing electorate speaks volumes; it’s a clear tipoff. For example, that stewing electorate- especially that 74-plus million– ain’t going any place. And will likely grow– as the ‘swampies’ deny $2000 to citizens in an emergency while $ goes overseas. The big losers in this are ideologues on all sides. People want things done ad the way forward is wise compromise. Zealous ideologues are not compromisers.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  206. So maybe a bit of focus on Covid would be helpful,

    “But how would that benefit me?” — DJT

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  207. @168. Postscript.

    How soon “folks” forget: worth a read if only for a laugh:

    List of Actor Politicians:

    https://www.imdb.com/list/ls000025899

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  208. 207. Trump did tweet two things on Covid today.

    First, to blame the states (not him!) for not getting the vaccine into people’s arms, and the second time, to criticize the CDCs tabulation of cases and deaths saying it’s not like other countries where the numbers are “purposely, very inaccurate and low.” (his point there being that his record should stand out better than it’s looking as compared to other countries)

    He could have legitimately criticized the CDC for being in an ivory tower and for having the very idea of nicely calculating who should get the vaccine first, and who should get it second and third and fourth. And then making recommendations as to preordained phases, many of them accepted at least in part by many states. (the only thing that saved it from being a total botch is that the first two categories, health care workers and people living in congregate housing, were combined, with neither given absolute priority over the other, and were somewhat easy to do, although not completely.)

    But that leaves us stuck at Phase 1A, with many vaccines sitting on shelves because finishing Phase 1A is slow going.

    But he’s too incompetent to realize this, even after it happens.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  209. But he’s too incompetent to realize this,

    He also doesn’t care about results to help other people. He cares about getting credit and deflecting blame. That’s all.

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  210. 210. Yes. He cares about results only to the extent he gets credit, and he doesn’t mind taking false credit if he can, and he’ll gladly take credit for something that is bad if people think it is good.

    He only argues about matters that other people are already talking about.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  211. From Parler I learned that Trump was just setting up Raffensberger, cuz Trump is supersmart and always way ahead of all those fools and commies. And media outlets that inform the public about what the prez is doing are enemies of the people and will be the first to go down in the impending civil war.

    Never underestimate the ability of Trumpers to find virtue and genius in anything Trump does. Trump set up Raffensberger to out himself as a commie, because only a commie would refuse to “find” more votes for Trump. It’s brilliant!

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  212. The unreality that Trump is promoting, in its divorce from reality, most resembles the lies the Communists said. Except that he’s not denying horrible crimes.

    We have had something like this before, but never something that got as mainstream as this.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)

  213. @212 I wonder if the parler people realize that there is a high level of likelihood that at least one of the people they are talking to is FBI.

    Nic (896fdf)

  214. 214. No, they’re probably not doing that. It’s not like the days when the FBI infiltrated the Communist Party. But somebody, at some point, is going to switch sides, particularly if anything here crosses over into crimes. Or gets caught up in a lawsuit.

    Sammy Finkelman (b78e49)


  215. Kristin Wilson
    @kristin__wilson
    Rep. Chip Roy is challenging the seating of the delegations from AZ PA MI WI NV and GA, basically saying if the presidential election in those states was rigged as the president contends, then so are the elections of the House delegation.

    They are now taking a recorded vote.

    I’m toying with the idea of emailing my Congressman and Senators to challenge the Texas slate. Just for ten days, you understand. We don’t want to overturn Texas’s votes. Just a ten-day delay until the EPA and the FDA certify that the Texas water supply is not contaminated with locoweed.

    nk (1d9030)

  216. @215 Someone in the FBI certainly has a job monitoring extremists on Parler. 100%.

    Nic (896fdf)

  217. Iffa you wanna unnerstan’ our fren’ Ted Cruz, just look at his recent “deer hunt”. You’ll see why the scare quotes.

    Although Texas has a lot of public land open to hunting, Ted went to a hunting ranch where the deer are managed like open range cattle. They’re basically domesticated. At various points in the ranch, corn hoppers are set up where the deer and other animals have learned to come to feed. Near the corn hoppers are shooting stands where the hunters are taken before feeding time. When something they want to shoot comes for its breakfast, kablooey! Bye, bye, Bambi! That’s called “baiting” and it’s illegal on public lands, BTW. Then the ranch takes the carcass and dresses it for the hunters, processing the meat, and saving the horns for the trophy.

    If you think that’s hunting, then you think that Ted is qualified to be in government. I don’t think that’s hunting, and I think that Ted is the phonus balonus all around.

    nk (1d9030)

  218. PA Lawmakers statement

    Georgia Senate Testimony

    Now I’m sure that many of you will look at these links, or pass them by and say all smoke and mirrors. GOP trash. Lies. I read them and go to the links, the full videos etc and I am concerned. REALLY concerned. There is so much that is being hidden. I read both sides, it’s why I came here, another viewpoint. I look at all of it and figure that the truth is somewhere in the middle. I am just amazed that so much sworn testimony has been given and is simply discounted as nothing. Or roadblocked and hidden. A good portion of the country is concerned about our election integrity and Democrats continue to stonewall and in some cases destroy evidence. Does that not matter to any of you?

    Add to this the media has heavily edited the phone call that was leaked. By any means…. that’s the rule. They basically say “do whatever you have to but make sure Trump is not the victor.”

    Swear in Biden. Fine. I honestly don’t care at this point. I can’t say Biden was dishonestly elected. I can’t say Biden was honestly elected. This isn’t about Old Senile Man vs. Old Crazy man. It’s about election integrity. It’s about finding the truth and fixing the problems.

    This will be my last post here. I can no longer stay in good conscious. When the owner of the blog as much as calls for the assassination of Trump it is a bridge to far. (“If he were declared the victor, I would support removing him by any force necessary.”) Add to that the ad hominem attack against NJ Rob. I don’t agree with Rob’s words or thoughts much of the time but the attack was over the top and beyond rude. NJ Rob demanded an apology, something Patterico insists upon from other people who insult to that degree, but no apology has been forthcoming. I’ve spend a couple of days contemplating this and find walking away will suit me just fine. I doubt my little Texas voice will be missed.

    I sincerely hope your 2021 is all that you wish for, for your family, job, and peace of mind.

    Marci (405d43)

  219. Patterico:

    I am a faithful lurker, and occasional poster. One aspect that I appreciate about your Pontifications is the directness and reliability of your words. Yes, I feel I can trust content by Patterico.

    But you shocked me with your replies @89 and @93.

    Your post on @88 can be justified. But you extended the accusation in @89 to the future “And you always can.” That appears to me as a personal attack on NJRob.

    Following that comment, posted minutes later, is a dreadful comment —

    “If he [Trump] were declared the victor, I would support removing him by any force necessary.”

    Do you really mean that statement? Does ‘any force’ include assassination? I am personally horrified at your statement.

    Btw, I am NOT a Trump fan. Thanks for reading my comment.

    Chris (3d25b0)

  220. Marci (405d43) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:08 am

    Walking away is a mistake. Do not silence yourself. Let me be harsh for a moment; imagine you are participating in a discussion when someone makes an offensive remark. You then voice your objection. Good! But then you walk away? You would surrender the field? No, it would be better to remain so that your presence may serve as a constant reproach to the offender.

    No one is so great that they do not need help; no one is so small that they cannot render it. Those that admire our generous host, of whom I am one, would do him a disservice by abandoning him for a mistep that we, in all honesty have also committed with a full throat.

    felipe (630e0b)

  221. Chris (3d25b0) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:21 am

    Your comment was not only well said, but well explained. Perhaps your words will be heeded by our heavy-treading host. “A gentle answer turneth away wrath.”

    felipe (630e0b)

  222. Now I’m sure that many of you will look at these links, or pass them by and say all smoke and mirrors. GOP trash. Lies. I read them and go to the links, the full videos etc and I am concerned. REALLY concerned. There is so much that is being hidden. I read both sides, it’s why I came here, another viewpoint. I look at all of it and figure that the truth is somewhere in the middle. I am just amazed that so much sworn testimony has been given and is simply discounted as nothing. Or roadblocked and hidden. A good portion of the country is concerned about our election integrity and Democrats continue to stonewall and in some cases destroy evidence. Does that not matter to any of you?

    Those claims are the equivalent of “But fire doesn’t melt steel!!!!” “arguments” about 9/11 being an inside job. There are clear explanations for the sundry “concerns” identified, you just either tune them out or fail to do the five seconds of research that would readily explain things.

    Irresponsible statements like that of Russ Diamond, as linked in the quoted comment, are dangerous because they are intended to sow confusion and are absolutely designed to fool the gullible and ignorant. Someone reads it and thinks, “Oh my God! There were more votes than voters!” What could possibly explain this??? Well:

    The Pennsylvania Department of State released the following statement in response to the Republicans’ claims:

    “In today’s release Rep. Ryan and others rehash, with the same lack of evidence and the same absence of supporting documentation, repeatedly debunked conspiracy theories regarding the November 3 election. State and federal judges have sifted through hundreds of pages of unsubstantiated and false allegations and found no evidence of fraud or illegal voting.

    “Now, the legislators have given us another perfect example of the dangers of uninformed, lay analysis combined with a basic lack of election administration knowledge.

    “For instance, it is quite common to have significant “undervotes” for down-ballot races in a presidential election, particularly when there isn’t a U.S. Senate race on the ballot. In 2000, Sen. Santorum received 200,000 more votes than President Bush, but the US Senate race still had more than 100,000 fewer votes than the presidential race.

    “We are unclear as to what data the legislators used for this most recent “analysis.” But the only way to determine the number of voters who voted in November from the SURE system is through the vote histories. At this time, there are still a few counties that have not completed uploading their vote histories to the SURE system. These counties, which include Philadelphia, Allegheny, Butler and Cambria, would account for a significant number of voters. The numbers certified by the counties, not the uploading of voter histories into the SURE system, determines the ultimate certification of an election by the secretary.

    “This obvious misinformation put forth by Rep. Ryan and others is the hallmark of so many of the claims made about this year’s presidential election. When exposed to even the simplest examination, courts at every level have found these and similar conspiratorial claims to be wholly without basis.

    “To put it simply, this so-called analysis was based on incomplete data.”

    Oh. (Quote is from here.)

    Again, the Trump campaign and its supporters filing lawsuits have had ample opportunity to put forth ACTUAL proof of fraud, and have utterly failed to do so. The advantage of putting out a stupid statement like the one put out by Diamond is that there is no judge present to call him on his BS about what data set he used as pointed out by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

    The politicians putting out this stuff by and large don’t actually believe what they say, they just say it because the Trumpy base eats it up and expects it. I can’t imagine any problems with 1 of the 2 major parties in America capitulating to those desires and telling its voters over and over that the entire system is rigged and unreliable (even though they don’t actually believe that).

    Johnny Agreeable (041dc0)

  223. Walking away is a mistake. Do not silence yourself. Let me be harsh for a moment; imagine you are participating in a discussion when someone makes an offensive remark. You then voice your objection. Good! But then you walk away? You would surrender the field? No, it would be better to remain so that your presence may serve as a constant reproach to the offender.

    To the extent this is an analogy to present circumstances, it simply doesn’t work. The “offensive remark” heard in your scenario actually happened, so there’s actually something of substance to respond to. The same isn’t true with respect to widespread fraud, which didn’t happen by any objective measure.

    To put in terms of what’s going on here, it’s actually more like this:

    Person A says at a party, “I don’t like the New Zealand All Blacks rugby team.”

    Person B, who doesn’t like Person A, overhears the comment and decides to parrot the lie that “Person A said they don’t like all blacks!”

    Person B then keeps repeating the mistaken interpretation even though Person B knows the truth and, when directly confronted about what actually happened, says, “Well, Person A might not have said that, but do you really dispute that some people are actually racist and have said something like that at a party?” Oh, also, Person B keeps on parroting the lie in other situations in which they are not directly asked to say exactly what happened.

    Person C then hears one of Person B’s lies, and asks out loud, “Why don’t any of you care about what Person A said???” Even though Person B is full of crap, and Persons D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, etc etc. were all present for the conversation and all also corroborate that Person A didn’t say anything wrong, Person C doubles down on Person A being a vile racist and refuses to come off their position.

    Person C should probably feel embarrassed!

    Johnny Agreeable (041dc0)

  224. Let me defend Patterico’s “By any means necessary”

    If, at this juncture, Trump begins a second term, it will be by undemocratic and unconstitutional means. There is no legal way for Trump to win. The objections will fail.

    Trump, an invalid President if he is still in the White House on January 21 is just a dictator. Dictators deserve the Mussolini treatment.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  225. PA Lawmakers statement

    Georgia Senate Testimony

    I followed both links. Thank you for posting them. I didn’t bother to read the 2nd one past the reference to Scott Adams as an authority. I’ve found him to be dishonest in the past so I stopped there. But the PA thing is interesting and illustrates why I don’t have a lot of respect for the people still claiming fraud.

    I saw the PA assertion last week and had time to look into it.

    The AP has a decent summary. the TL:DR version is that PA GOP lawmakers are comparing the county level data that’s used to determine the winner of the election with a database that’s generated FROM the county level data for historical tracking purposes. The 2nd database is incomplete. The GOP is now using this to assert fraud in public, in a way they have refrained from doing in court.

    Now I’m sure that many of you will look at these links, or pass them by and say all smoke and mirrors. GOP trash. Lies. I read them and go to the links, the full videos etc and I am concerned. REALLY concerned. There is so much that is being hidden.

    The GOP wants you to be concerned. That’s why they’re lying and misrepresenting things in public. They benefit from your concern.

    I read both sides, it’s why I came here, another viewpoint. I look at all of it and figure that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    The people telling the lies are counting on this, it’s a natural response. But I say the sun moves from East to West, and they say it’s North to South, the right answer isn’t North East to Southwest.

    I am just amazed that so much sworn testimony has been given and is simply discounted as nothing. Or roadblocked and hidden.

    IANAL but I’ve been involved in legal matters a few times. In every one there were people swearing under oath about conflicting facts. In one case i was a Juror and my duty was to determine, based on all the presented evidence what the actual truth was. This has been done in the 2020 election many times. In none of these cases have the witnesses who testified on behalf of Trump been convincing. In response to your previous comment i posted a link to the ruling from Detroit. TL:DR where Trump’s lawyers have brought these claims forward the judges have not found their evidence and testimony compelling.

    A good portion of the country is concerned about our election integrity and Democrats continue to stonewall and in some cases destroy evidence. Does that not matter to any of you?

    GOP legislatures in GA, PA, WI, and MI established a process to hold the election and evaluate it’s fairness. In all cases the conclusion of that process was the Biden got more votes. Can you give me a specific example of stonewalling and destruction of evidence? or where the established resolutions process wasn’t’ followed?

    Add to this the media has heavily edited the phone call that was leaked. By any means…. that’s the rule. They basically say “do whatever you have to but make sure Trump is not the victor.”

    Full audio has been released. It’s horrible. It was recorded because they expected (accurately) that Trump would pressure them to cheat lie about the conversation.

    Swear in Biden. Fine. I honestly don’t care at this point. I can’t say Biden was dishonestly elected. I can’t say Biden was honestly elected. This isn’t about Old Senile Man vs. Old Crazy man. It’s about election integrity. It’s about finding the truth and fixing the problems.

    The GOP has no interest in the truth. There is no process they will accept unless it gives them the results they want.

    This will be my last post here. I can no longer stay in good conscious. When the owner of the blog as much as calls for the assassination of Trump it is a bridge to far. (“If he were declared the victor, I would support removing him by any force necessary.”) Add to that the ad hominem attack against NJ Rob. I don’t agree with Rob’s words or thoughts much of the time but the attack was over the top and beyond rude. NJ Rob demanded an apology, something Patterico insists upon from other people who insult to that degree, but no apology has been forthcoming. I’ve spend a couple of days contemplating this and find walking away will suit me just fine. I doubt my little Texas voice will be missed.

    I sincerely hope your 2021 is all that you wish for, for your family, job, and peace of mind.

    I hope you’ll reconsider. I’ve always enjoyed talking with you.

    Marci (405d43) — 1/4/2021 @ 7:08 am

    Time123 (36651d)

  226. Johnny Agreeable (041dc0) — 1/4/2021 @ 8:23 am
    Thinking for yourself is great! I think you are over-thinking this. My point is that one should not censure oneself. The rest is just spin.

    felipe (630e0b)

  227. “There are two ways to change regimes: voting and violence. I fear for the country if the people conclude the former is not a viable option.”

    So then let people pressure test the new mail in ballot with no ID system.
    A system with few safeguards and a very short challenge window isn’t trustworthy.
    The voters need to put minimal skin in the game. If they want their vote counted they should verify ID and vote at or before the a cutoff date and time.. insist that rules are followed.
    ID verification and post mark of election day are not onerous hurdles.

    Trust but verify machines, software, elections workers, post marks, ID etc. A purchase and delivery of 64 crayola crayons via credit card on Amazon has more verification than voting

    steveg (43b7a5)

  228. A purchase and delivery of 64 crayola crayons via credit card on Amazon has more verification than voting.

    I’m very happy to hear that. I’d hate for somebody to order Crayolas from Amazon on my account with my credit card. How are they with other things besides Crayolas?

    nk (1d9030)

  229. Marci,

    We don’t have to agree on much for me to know you’ve always been a polite and considerate person. I understand your reasoning and cannot dispute it, but I hope you post just to allow some dissent to what has become an ever increasing echo chamber. Your voice matters.

    NJRob (8d9168)

  230. Marci,

    We don’t have to agree on much for me to know you’ve always been a polite and considerate person. I understand your reasoning and cannot dispute it, but I hope you post just to allow some dissent to what has become an ever increasing echo chamber. Your voice matters.

    NJRob (8d9168) — 1/4/2021 @ 8:39 pm

    I agree with your kind words about Marci.

    Time123 (89dfb2)


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