Patterico's Pontifications

11/25/2020

Trump Pardons Michael Flynn (ADDED)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 1:37 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Ths is not at all surprising:

From NPR:

The pardon brings an end to a long-running legal odyssey for Flynn, who was the only member of the Trump administration to be charged as part of special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation.

Flynn pleaded guilty in 2017 to lying to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian ambassador, and then cooperated extensively with prosecutors. But he ultimately reversed course and accused the government of trying to frame him.

Flynn went to so far as to withdraw his first plea of guilty and substitute a second plea of not guilty, even though he’d acknowledged the underlying conduct that was against the law and been close to receiving a sentence.

ADDED:

–Dana

142 Responses to “Trump Pardons Michael Flynn (ADDED)”

  1. Next on the pardon list?

    Dana (6995e0)

  2. As noted on another thread: “The ‘rule of law’ means little to Americans when they’ve seen so many over the decades get convicted, then get off– or just get away with it, period.”- DCSCA 11/24/2020 @ 10:25 am

    The show must go on: Trump will pardon himself the night of January 19 or before noon EST the morning of January 20, 2021.

    An in the end, Lori Loughlin will do more time in the pokie than Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew ever did– or Donald Trump ever will.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  3. Good. The Flynn prosecution was a political hit job who’s former attorneys didn’t have his best interest.

    whembly (2900b2)

  4. No, Whembly, it was no hit job. Just because Trump’s side acts hysterically about everything, and makes everything a circus, doesn’t mean this wasn’t an extremely serious investigation. We know Flynn pled guilty, is a traitor, and a liar, and that Trump successfully obstructed justice with a blatant interference with the prosecution team, which is similar to how attempted to help Ghislaine Maxwell avoid justice.

    This is why I voted for Biden. This is why millions of us voted for Biden.

    Happy thanksgiving. If you look at this pardon the way I do, it’s validating. Evil is gasping. I know bad stuff will keep happening, but it seems to be promoting good stuff like Trump getting his butt tossed to the curb no matter how desperately he flails.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  5. Sorry Dana, reposting from previous thread.

    Pardoning Flynn now is the clearest sign that, despite his protestations, Trump knows he’s leaving office on January 20th.

    Trump is getting his “affairs” in order.

    whembly (c30c83)

  6. The Flynn-Flam Man Bigfoots Biden’s Turkey Day Message.

    What. A. Showman.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  7. @4

    No, Whembly, it was no hit job.

    Yes. Yes it was buddy.

    Just because Trump’s side acts hysterically about everything, and makes everything a circus, doesn’t mean this wasn’t an extremely serious investigation.

    It was *NOT* a serious investigation. It was literally dead until it was resurrected by the SCO for the express purpose to seek out a scalp rather than justice and it’s a travesty that the likes of you refuses to acknowledge that.

    We know Flynn pled guilty,

    Which we know that had the DOJ not sought to drop it, he was WILLING to seek to overturn is plea and fight this in court. Don’t you want people, even the disfavored, “have their day in court”???

    Otherwise, you’re essentially acting now different that the Brown Coats™ in Germany.

    is a traitor, and a liar,

    Hyperbolic much? Are you like this in the real world?

    and that Trump successfully obstructed justice with a blatant interference with the prosecution team,

    You mean, in the interest of Justice the DOJ deemed that they couldn’t reasonable prove beyond a reasonable doubt the charges? That obstruction?

    which is similar to how attempted to help Ghislaine Maxwell avoid justice.

    How so?

    This is why I voted for Biden. This is why millions of us voted for Biden.

    You’re wrong, but good for you. It’s okay to be wrong. 😉

    Happy thanksgiving.
    You too…sincerely. Enjoy your little tikes in times like these… goes too fast.

    If you look at this pardon the way I do, it’s validating.

    I don’t look at it the same way as you do. I see a travesty that the pardon nullifies. Out of all the pardons Trump has done (and he pardoned many controversially), this one is fully in that “good” column.

    Evil is gasping.

    Again with the hyperbole. This is how leftism frames their opposition. It’s okay to despise Trump and his orbit, but evil? I don’t believe you truly know what evil *is*.

    I know bad stuff will keep happening, but it seems to be promoting good stuff like Trump getting his butt tossed to the curb no matter how desperately he flails.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 11/25/2020 @ 2:01 pm

    Take solace that he’s leaving on the 20th. But, be ready when Democrats does/pass things you don’t like, don’t expect sympathy from Trump voters.

    whembly (c30c83)

  8. Trump pardoning another turkey.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  9. Tim Miller:

    Michael Flynn was a paid foreign asset of the Turkish government after he was appointed National Security Advisor. This would be akin to Jake Sullivan currently being on the take from the Iranians.

    It is a scandal without modern precedent. Trump and the GOP own it.

    Not as bad aligning with the Iranians, but it was still pretty bad.

    Paul Montagu (a1ba2a)

  10. @9 Citation?

    From memory Flynn resigned from his company once he was appointed.

    whembly (c30c83)

  11. Correction. Tim Miller was wrong that Flynn was working for the Turks while NSA, but it’s unclear when he was paid for his services.
    But Flynn was a shill for Erdogan while working for Candidate Trump and President-Elect Trump. His infamous op-ed was on 11/8 and Trump announced his appointment as NSA on 11/18, but we was on Team Trump since at least since speech at the RNC convention.
    Judge Sullivan was right to say that Flynn sold out his country, and he made it worse when he lied on his after-the-fact FARA filing.

    Paul Montagu (a1ba2a)

  12. @11

    Correction. Tim Miller was wrong that Flynn was working for the Turks while NSA, but it’s unclear when he was paid for his services.

    …not illegal to be paid for his services either, so Tim’s narrative is bunk.

    But Flynn was a shill for Erdogan while working for Candidate Trump and President-Elect Trump. His infamous op-ed was on 11/8 and Trump announced his appointment as NSA on 11/18, but we was on Team Trump since at least since speech at the RNC convention.

    …again, not illegal.

    Judge Sullivan was right to say that Flynn sold out his country, and he made it worse when he lied on his after-the-fact FARA filing.

    Paul Montagu (a1ba2a) — 11/25/2020 @ 2:26 pm

    Just Sullivan was wrong for stating that and Flynn’s FARA alleged violation was weak. His partner has his case thrown out.

    whembly (c30c83)

  13. Whembly, thank you for all your comments. I am dismayed whenever I see any American lobbying for a foreign government, but the political lynching General Flynn was put through was disgusting. This pardon is fully justified, but should’ve never taken place if Judge Sullivan had done his job instead of slow rolling the case and trying to railroad General Flynn.

    NJRob (25a29c)

  14. …not illegal to be paid for his services either, so Tim’s narrative is bunk.

    I didn’t say it was illegal, and nor did Miller. He was wrong about the timing of Flynn’s dalliance with Erdogan, but that’s it. It is a scandal, and Trump and the GOP do own it.
    Flynn was a sellout to this country. If he wanted a big paycheck from a Middle Eastern dictator, he should’ve quit Trump.

    Paul Montagu (a1ba2a)

  15. @14 Every major powers has representation like Flynn’s own company.

    It’s one way the DC beltway makes tons of money.

    But, again, there’s no evidence that Flynn was “on the take” during the Trump administration.

    whembly (c30c83)

  16. You too…sincerely. Enjoy your little tikes in times like these… goes too fast.

    Thank you, sincerely, and I am. It’s a good time over here and I hope everyone has a chance to be as happy as I am today.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  17. But, be ready when Democrats does/pass things you don’t like, don’t expect sympathy from Trump voters.

    I can’t speak for others, but I fully expect Democrats to enact things I don’t like. And I don’t expect sympathy from Trump voters. This isn’t personal, or shouldn’t be personal in that Americans are forced to choose from offerings that are most certainly not the best and the brightest. So people do what they need to do. I was not a Biden nor Trump voter. But if I were, I personally think it’s silly to say then that “you own Trump” or “you own Biden”. We vote for whom we believe to be the best candidate available, or if the pickings are unacceptable to us, then we vote for someone else. But we don’t own them. Most Americans, I bet, take their voting responsibilities seriously, and vote through the lens through which they view politics and the world around them. At the end of the day, I’m glad so many Americans count it important to have their vote counted.

    Dana (6995e0)

  18. It’s a good time over here and I hope everyone has a chance to be as happy as I am today.

    Just picturing your little family all cocooned together with the commotion of babies laughing and crying and being demanding and adorably sweet at the same time makes me happy. There is nothing better than knowing that babies are loved. Even though all the parents really want is 6 hours of solid sleep.

    Dana (6995e0)

  19. Hoo boy:

    During his last weeks in office, President Trump has seen a surge in lobbying efforts by hopeful pardon recipients, from high-profile former White House staffers to Joe Exotic, star of Netflix’s Tiger King, according to The New York Times. Exotic is serving a 22-year sentence in a Texas federal prison for attempting to hire a hitman to kill his enemy Carole Baskin. In order to get the president’s attention, Exotic’s team reportedly spent $10,000 at the Trump International Hotel in Washington.

    Dana (6995e0)

  20. Acceptance of the pardon is an admission of guilt. Mr Flynn pleaded guilty earlier because he couldn’t afford the huge legal fees and just wanted to get this [insert slang term for feces here] over.

    It’s cheaper for Mr Flynn to accept the pardon, including the ramifications that go with it, than continue to fight. I wish that he had gotten off when the Department of Justice tried to drop the charges, but one very biased federal judge kept things going. How the f(ornicate) can a judge keep a prosecution going when the prosecution wants to drop it is beyond me.

    The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c)

  21. Even though all the parents really want is 6 hours of solid sleep.

    Dana (6995e0) — 11/25/2020 @ 3:13 pm

    It is really nuts how much harder two is than one! But we’re all doing great. I should come up with a nice update for the next weekend thread.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  22. @17

    I can’t speak for others, but I fully expect Democrats to enact things I don’t like. And I don’t expect sympathy from Trump voters. This isn’t personal, or shouldn’t be personal in that Americans are forced to choose from offerings that are most certainly not the best and the brightest. So people do what they need to do. I was not a Biden nor Trump voter. But if I were, I personally think it’s silly to say then that “you own Trump” or “you own Biden”. We vote for whom we believe to be the best candidate available, or if the pickings are unacceptable to us, then we vote for someone else. But we don’t own them. Most Americans, I bet, take their voting responsibilities seriously, and vote through the lens through which they view politics and the world around them. At the end of the day, I’m glad so many Americans count it important to have their vote counted.

    Dana (6995e0) — 11/25/2020 @ 3:10 pm

    I get this sentiment…I really do.

    I just couldn’t convince myself to not vote for GOP/Trump because I really, really don’t want to see Democrats enacts their policies. Democrat policies are far more destructive and far reaching than any “bad things” a Trump administration would’ve done.

    whembly (c30c83)

  23. Until the FBI interview, which broke protocol, Flynn did nothing illegal. That interview happened after a senior Obama/Biden administration official committed a felony by leaking classified info to WaPo to jumpstart the Flynn investigation (which was all but closed), and there’s no indication the “rule of law” types much care.

    beer ‘n pretzels (042d67)

  24. So Lyin’ Flynn joins the Oily North club.

    I want to see Flynn, his esteemed lawyer Powell and Crazy Gramps from Fox do a reality show on the forthcoming DonTV.

    john (cd2753)

  25. @20

    Acceptance of the pardon is an admission of guilt. Mr Flynn pleaded guilty earlier because he couldn’t afford the huge legal fees and just wanted to get this [insert slang term for feces here] over.

    It’s cheaper for Mr Flynn to accept the pardon, including the ramifications that go with it, than continue to fight. I wish that he had gotten off when the Department of Justice tried to drop the charges, but one very biased federal judge kept things going. How the f(ornicate) can a judge keep a prosecution going when the prosecution wants to drop it is beyond me.

    The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c) — 11/25/2020 @ 3:16 pm

    Actually… it’s not.

    Pardons don’t require a confession or admission of guilt. Many people who profess innocence are pardoned.

    Now people can draw inferences. Lots of people will infer that only a guilty person needs a pardon. But that’s different than saying you must admit guilt.

    whembly (c30c83)

  26. Pardon’s don’t mean you’re guilty. I’m sure there’s a technical case out there where it was necessary to make that finding, but this is just common sense. If you were innocent, would you accept a pardon? Of course you would. Therefore a pardon doesn’t prove your guilt.

    Flynn was very well paid for his military service, and instead of being satisfied with that, he sold us out, trading on that inside knowledge and access. It’s really disgraceful and it’s not uncommon enough. I know he lied. I know the investigation was aggressive too, and to many that means Flynn lying is no big deal. I guess I just don’t understand that. When you’re a general you should do literally everything you can to make the US government more effective, make its intel investigations absolutely sound. You shouldn’t mislead or lie to the FBI. Even if they are trying too hard to figure out why Trump fired Comey over ‘that russian thing’.

    That will all be exposed in good time. It doesn’t matter whether Flynn serves his seven days in jail. The American people had their chance to say whether they were Ok with this use of power in their name. We know the answer.

    Let’s start applying these ideas to President Harris. Biden’s trying to be a centrist, trying to prove the nay-sayers wrong about an instant economic collapse. but Harris is going to want to make a mark. She’s going to make some grand mistakes. We need to start thinking carefully about the power Trump innovated. I’m not sure you want Harris recreating new versions of the past four years’s headlines.

    We know our democracy and our freedom is fragile now. We know we want a weaker executive, for the feds to have a lot less prominence in our lives. I wish Trump had actually gutted all those agencies and given us four years of limited government and a wall. he’d be just as hated by the left if he had, so I bet he wishes he had done that too.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  27. Acceptance of the pardon is an admission of guilt.

    It’s a moot argument with Flynn because he pled guilty, but it’s not that clear-cut that a pardon is an admission of guilt.

    But Burdick was about a different issue: the ability to turn down a pardon. The language about imputing and confessing guilt was just an aside — what lawyers call dicta. The court meant that, as a practical matter, because pardons make people look guilty, a recipient might not want to accept one. But pardons have no formal, legal effect of declaring guilt.

    Indeed, in rare cases pardons are used to exonerate people. This was Trump’s rationale for posthumously pardoning boxer Jack Johnson, the victim of a racially based railroading in 1913. Ford pardoned Iva Toguri d’Aquino (World War II’s “Tokyo Rose”) after “60 Minutes” revealed that she was an innocent victim of prosecutors who suborned perjured testimony in her treason case. President George H.W. Bush pardoned Caspar Weinberger because he thought the former defense secretary, indicted in the Iran-contra affair, was a victim of “the criminalization of policy differences.” If the president pardons you because he thinks you are innocent, what guilt could accepting that pardon possibly admit?

    Paul Montagu (a1ba2a)

  28. @26.’Pardon’s don’t mean you’re guilty.’

    ‘After President Gerald Ford left the White House in 1977, intimates said that the President privately justified his pardon of Richard Nixon by carrying in his wallet a portion of the text of the Burdick decision that suggested that a pardon carries an imputation of guilt and that acceptance carries a confession of guilt.’ – source, wikihelloallyowonderfulbuckeyesiamfromthatstateupnorth.com

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  29. yeah I know, DCSCA. Nevertheless, a pardon doesn’t mean you’re guilty. I kinda get the logical idea that you can’t be pardoned for nothing, but most people would accept a pardon for a crime they were innocent of, therefore the pardon doesn’t prove anything. As guilty as Nixon was.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  30. There are pardons “on the grounds of (actual) innocence”. In many places, in America I mean, they’re the only kind that will restore certain rights that felons lose such as gun ownership, where a pardon on the grounds of clemency or policy will not.

    nk (1d9030)

  31. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/24/us/politics/trump-is-said-to-plan-pardon-of-flynn.html

    … In a late September hearing before Judge Sullivan, a lawyer for Mr. Flynn, Sidney Powell, reluctantly admitted that she had recently spoken to Mr. Trump about the case, but said she had asked the president not to pardon her client.

    Ms. Powell has appeared alongside lawyers for Mr. Trump, including Rudolph W. Giuliani, to press an unfounded case of election fraud. But after Ms. Powell floated a set of particularly wild claims, Mr. Giuliani and another lawyer representing the Trump campaign, Jenna Ellis, said in an abrupt statement on Sunday that Ms. Powell “is not a member of the Trump legal team….

    ….Word of Mr. Trump’s intentions came on a day the president presided over the annual White House turkey pardon. Mr. Trump ignored shouted questions from reporters in the Rose Garden about whether he planned actual pardons before leaving office.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  32. I want things like this to be resolved so we can all move on, but it would have been nice to have a court case and appeal that addressed the merits of a Rule 48(a) dismissal in cases like this. Specifically, what “leave of court” means and how much latitude courts have in reviewing the basis for dismissal.

    DRJ (aede82)

  33. For instance, couldn’t the Biden DOJ move to dismiss all pending cases against Democratic defendants, citing Flynn’s case as precedent?

    DRJ (aede82)

  34. @32 Agreed.

    @33 Technically… yeah. So long as the Biden DOJ gives a facially good reason.

    whembly (c30c83)

  35. I wonder if Sen. Perdue will get a pardon depending on if he wins or loses his Senate race.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  36. If Trump wants to do some real good, pardon every prisoner who’s in for marijuana charges.

    Hoi Polloi (3bc019)

  37. @36

    If Trump wants to do some real good, pardon every prisoner who’s in for marijuana charges.

    Hoi Polloi (3bc019) — 11/25/2020 @ 5:48 pm

    That… would be very “Trumpy” or even some tax convictions.

    whembly (c30c83)

  38. What benefit accrues to Trump from this action?

    Fred (92cd93)

  39. Flynn’s family reportedly responded to the pardon with this statement:

    ‘We are forever appreciative to President Trump for giving back to Michael his freedom in undoing a hideous wrong,’ Flynn’s family said in a statement shared on his Twitter account.

    ‘Let it be heard across this great country and around the world that tyranny will not topple us. Masks will not silence us. Threats will not stop us. Evil will not triumph. We are Americans,’ the f added.

    That is very dramatic and the “Masks will not silence us” is nonsensical.

    DRJ (aede82)

  40. From time to time one of my cats brings home a mouse and the other cats play with it. Pretty much what happened to Flynn.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  41. That is very dramatic and the “Masks will not silence us” is nonsensical.

    I’m reasonably sure the Flynn family felt they’d been the prop in a lot of drama.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  42. Next on the pardon list?

    Rollo Tomasi.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  43. So Lyin’ Flynn joins the Oily North club.

    Olly North was never convicted of anything. There WAS a prosecutor who got a guilty verdict through egregious misconduct, but that whole trial was wiped off the books as if it never happened.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. Jimmy Carter pardoned G Gordon Liddy. On that scale, this is nothing.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  45. 4. Dustin (4237e0) — 11/25/2020 @ 2:01 pm

    We know Flynn pled guilty, is a traitor, and a liar,

    He didn’t plead guilty to be being a traitor, although he might have been (Obama, or people working in the Obama Administration, suspected he might have been recruited by the GRU while he was head of the DIA, and as a result, Obama forced him to retire early, never thinking he could again be considered for a high official U.S. government position.

    Later, Obama and others could not express their full feelings about Mike Flynn to Donald Trump, because that would have reflected badly on them, (I mean you just drop the issue?) and some career or not generally considered political FBI people sought to get him fired, initially without success. They did not go strictly by the book, as Obama had asked them to.)

    The person who really, truly, pardoned Mike Flynn (from near treason!) was Barack Obama.

    Flynn was a liar, but in this matter he lied about something that was not a crime, or even bad, but Mike Flynn didn’t know that.

    Mike Flynn pled guilty to a crime that could never have been proven (because how could you prove his memory was good?) probably in order to avoid more serious charges, not with regard to Turkey (where’d you’d have to prove he understood the people who were paying him were acting at the behest of the Turkish government or that it was obvious there could be no question about it, and maybe there were some lies qbout that too) and not because of falsehoods or omissions in documents that he signed to get the job as Natoonal Security Adviser (because he would likely not get a bigger sentence, if any) but because of Russia, and he wanted to cut short the investigation before the prosecutors found out anything about it.

    and that Trump successfully obstructed justice with a blatant interference with the prosecution team,

    If you mean a pardon, a pardon is completely separate; if you mean getting charges dropped, whatever he did would not be obstruction of justice, although maybe a pardon would be more proper.

    which is similar to how attempted to help Ghislaine Maxwell avoid justice.

    All he did there was express sympathy for her.

    Happy thanksgiving. If you look at this pardon the way I do, it’s validating. Evil is gasping. I know bad stuff will keep happening, but it seems to be promoting good stuff like Trump getting his butt tossed to the curb no matter how desperately he flails.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  46. 43. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/26/2020 @ 12:33 am

    There WAS a prosecutor who got a guilty verdict through egregious misconduct, but that whole trial was wiped off the books as if it never happened.

    It wasn’t misconduct. The case established, that, as a practical matter, there wasn’t really any such thing as “use immunity”

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  47. Off topic, but te Supreme Court has granted injunctive relief in Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v Cuomo, a different result than two previous cases where Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg voted against relief, in 5-4 decisions, and this time, Justice Amy Coney Barrett voted for relief.

    The Chief Justice had been voting with the liberal squishes.

    Also, a federal judge has stomped on Governor Andy Beshear’s (D-KY) executive order closing religious schools due to COVID-19.

    The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c)

  48. We see what happens when you say state governments can do just about anything in the name of public health regardless of other constitutional provisions (and it is not reviewable even for rationality or impartiality.)

    ..

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  49. In her dissent, Justice Sotomayor wrote:

    I see no justification for the Court’s change of heart.

    The justification is simple: Ruth Bader Ginsburg has been replaced by Amy Coney Barrett.

    Justice Sotomayor wrote in the typical Supreme Court vein, with a pretense that political choices aren’t part of the equation. They are, everybody knows that they are, and it’s a very good thing that President trump was able to nominate and get Justice Barrett confirmed. The Democrats wanted to delay the nomination until after the election, hoping that Joe Biden would get to make the pick, and nominate someone with leftist opinions. Justice Barrett is a conservative, and exactly who we needed on the Supreme Court.

    The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c)

  50. From time to time one of my cats brings home a mouse and the other cats play with it. Pretty much what happened to Flynn.

    You have mice that commit federal felonies?

    Patterico (193ccd)

  51. There are a lot of very silly takes in this thread but I am going to attempt not to ruin by day by responding to them all. Dustin, you are as usual well spoken and on target.

    Patterico (193ccd)

  52. Thanks Patterico. I know everyone here is exhausted by the news. But this is a great country that is showing its strength over some very deep problems. We should be thankful even to have such challenges to overcome. We could be entering a golden age. Most of them did start with hard times. The roaring 20s came right after… a pandemic.

    Take solace that he’s leaving on the 20th. But, be ready when Democrats does/pass things you don’t like, don’t expect sympathy from Trump voters.

    whembly (c30c83) — 11/25/2020 @ 2:12 pm

    I am ready for that. It’s the price. But nevertrumpers won. We get a divided government, Justice Coney, and Trump is going. The price we were prepared to pay appears to be limited. Granted, there are different degrees of nevertrumper, but for all those ‘but I repeat myself’ jokes, i guess I’m more comfortable with Team D than Team R.

    I hope Trump voters have an awesome thanksgiving without worrying so much about the things they are told about the election or the upcoming horrible socialism. We should give Biden a chance to be a uniter, but more importantly, we should ignore all these blowhards as much as possible!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  53. Until the FBI interview, which broke protocol, Flynn did nothing illegal.

    False statements in FARA filings are illegal.

    That interview happened after a senior Obama/Biden administration official committed a felony by leaking classified info to WaPo to jumpstart the Flynn investigation (which was all but closed), and there’s no indication the “rule of law” types much care.

    The interview did indeed happen after Flynn lied to multiple Trump administration officials about whether he had spoken with the Russian ambassador. If the senior administration official who leaked to David Ignatius were to be prosecuted for that leak, I would support that prosecution. However, I would have to be a partisan hack like beer n pretzels to be more worried about that leak, which revealed dishonesty by the incoming National Security Adviser, than I am about the lying by the incoming National Security Adviser.

    It must be weird to have your judgment so distorted by a lens of partisan hackery that you don’t give a shit about lying by a National Security Adviser and set him up as a Historic Martyr.

    Patterico (193ccd)

  54. Take solace that he’s leaving on the 20th. But, be ready when Democrats does/pass things you don’t like, don’t expect sympathy from Trump voters.

    It would be nice if Trump voters showed the same charity to Biden voters that I have consistently shown here to Trump voters who made it clear that they voted Trump with misgivings (the same way I voted for Biden with misgivings). But the Trump voters around here at least, generally speaking, will probably not show that charity, and consequently I will continue to ignore them and move forward knowing that I am adult and don’t expect my choices to result in perfect outcomes in all ways.

    The prospect that I will regret my vote is very, very remote, because I will not forget how Trump has behaved, in particular encouraging his voters to cheat, and in trying to steal the election. He is a historically awful president; his removal was the hightest priority; and I am immensely relieved it worked. The chances that a bad judge here or a left-leaning policy there are going to cause me to start posting “miss me yet” memes with a smirking Donald Trump are zero.

    Patterico (193ccd)

  55. Summary of the Flynn case.

    DRJ (aede82)

  56. Off topic, but te Supreme Court has granted injunctive relief in Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v Cuomo, a different result than two previous cases where Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg voted against relief, in 5-4 decisions, and this time, Justice Amy Coney Barrett voted for relief.

    The Chief Justice had been voting with the liberal squishes.

    Also, a federal judge has stomped on Governor Andy Beshear’s (D-KY) executive order closing religious schools due to COVID-19.

    The Dana in Kentucky (facd7c) — 11/26/2020 @ 7:20 am

    President Trump appointed 3 Justices that followed their duty to uphold the Constitution. Roberts punted as usual. Like the disreputable Governor Murphy, the Constitution is “above his pay grade.”

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  57. @26.’Pardon’s don’t mean you’re guilty.’

    Keep that in mind when Trump pardons himself. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  58. No vote here made the difference in the outcome of any election, so IMO there is no point in blaming anyone here for Trump in 2016 or Biden in 2020. We vote for whom we want to vote. IMO the best part about the secret ballot/vote is that it avoids making elections personal unless someone wants to make it personal.

    DRJ (aede82)

  59. Roberts may be a closet liberal but he acts like someone who cares about how the Court functions more than the legal issues. IMO he primarily takes the liberal side in order to avoid polarizing the Court (except in the ObamaCare case), not to enable liberal wins. Scalia understood being yourself while making friends, too, is a better plan. My feeling is that Roberts may have simply been too young to be Chief.

    DRJ (aede82)

  60. @54

    Take solace that he’s leaving on the 20th. But, be ready when Democrats does/pass things you don’t like, don’t expect sympathy from Trump voters.

    It would be nice if Trump voters showed the same charity to Biden voters that I have consistently shown here to Trump voters who made it clear that they voted Trump with misgivings (the same way I voted for Biden with misgivings). But the Trump voters around here at least, generally speaking, will probably not show that charity, and consequently I will continue to ignore them and move forward knowing that I am adult and don’t expect my choices to result in perfect outcomes in all ways.

    But there *is* a difference Patrick.

    You voted against Trump.

    I think I speak for most Trump voters is that we voted for the continuation of general GOP/Conservative/center-right policies. It wasn’t that most of us worshiped the ground that Trump walks.

    The prospect that I will regret my vote is very, very remote, because I will not forget how Trump has behaved, in particular encouraging his voters to cheat, and in trying to steal the election. He is a historically awful president; his removal was the hightest priority; and I am immensely relieved it worked. The chances that a bad judge here or a left-leaning policy there are going to cause me to start posting “miss me yet” memes with a smirking Donald Trump are zero.

    Patterico (193ccd) — 11/26/2020 @ 9:48 am

    We’ll see Pat… we’ll see.

    whembly (c30c83)

  61. @59

    Roberts may be a closet liberal but he acts like someone who cares about how the Court functions more than the legal issues. IMO he primarily takes the liberal side in order to avoid polarizing the Court (except in the ObamaCare case), not to enable liberal wins. Scalia understood being yourself while making friends, too, is a better plan. My feeling is that Roberts may have simply been too young to be Chief.

    DRJ (aede82) — 11/26/2020 @ 10:04 am

    I don’t think Roberts is a liberal… he’s an institutionalist.

    If folks would just read his dissent, you’ll see that he’ll likely rule for the plantiff on merits, but his dissent wasn’t about the merits.

    whembly (c30c83)

  62. Then take it from me, whembly, if how someone votes is the decider for you. I voted for Trump twice and I say this as emphatically as Patterico did:

    It would be nice if Trump voters showed the same charity to Biden voters that [Patterico has] consistently shown here to Trump voters who made it clear that they voted Trump with misgivings (the same way [Patterico] voted for Biden with misgivings). But the Trump voters around here at least, generally speaking, will probably not show that charity …

    .The election was over three weeks ago on November 3. Accept the results and how people here voted. Let’s all be adults again.

    DRJ (aede82)

  63. I agree, because I think calling him an institutionalist is another way to make the point I was making. IOW he cares more about the Court than the law, which is not my view of how SCOTUS Justice should be.

    DRJ (aede82)

  64. “don’t expect sympathy from Trump voters.”

    Why would I ever expect sympathy from Trump voters, under any circumstances at all?

    https://i.imgur.com/F1uOUMS.png

    Davethulhu (6e0d47)

  65. I think I speak for most Trump voters is that we voted for the continuation of general GOP/Conservative/center-right policies.

    You also voted for all of his categorical unfitness, zero character, and non-conservative maladies. It’s a fair question to ask whether judges and a handful of actual conservative issues is worth the price.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  66. @65. “You’re learning that you don’t work with a Captain because you like the way he parts his hair; you work with him because *he’s GOT* the job, or you’re no good!” – Barney Greenwald [Jose Ferrer] ‘The Caine Mutiny’ 1954

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  67. I’ve added Trump’s retweet of Matt Gaetz to the post:

    President Trump should pardon Flynn, the Thanksgiving turkey, and everyone from himself, to his admin, to Joe Exotic if he has to.

    The Left has a bloodlust that will only be quenched if they come for those who fought with @realDonaldTrump to deliver for the American people.

    Dana (6995e0)

  68. I think I speak for most Trump voters is that we voted for the continuation of general GOP/Conservative/center-right policies. It wasn’t that most of us worshiped the ground that Trump walks.

    There certainly seem to be some worshippers out there, but again: I understand that motivation for voting for Trump, as long as you acknowledge the bad aspects of what he does. (Most Trump voters acknowledge some of it but frankly not all of it, because they would have a tough time justifying their vote if they did.) But the whole “we’re not going to have sympathy for you” attitude is, in my view, nasty and unwarranted, especially when you yourself received charity.

    Patterico (193ccd)

  69. The Left has a bloodlust

    Well, pardoning “everyone” won’t have the calming influence Matt expects.

    And, assuming that Trump’s self-pardon is ruled bullsh1t, as it should be, there would only be one guy left to take the fall with all those pardoned people compelled to testify as they have no more 5th Amendment rights.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  70. As far as pardoning himself, the Founders never seemed to dream of such a thing, although they clearly did not trust the Executive. Here, though, is an interesting passage (Sept 15, 1787):

    Mr Randolph moved to “except cases of treason”. The prerogative of pardon in these cases was too great a trust. The President may himself be guilty. The Traytors may be his own instruments.

    Col: Mason supported the motion.

    Mr Govr Morris had rather there should be no pardon for treason, than let the power devolve on the Legislature.

    Mr Wilson. Pardon is necessary for cases of treason, and is best placed in the hands of the Executive. If he be himself a party to the guilt he can be impeached and prosecuted.

    Note that the inference here is that the President could not pardon himself for treason.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  71. You also voted for all of his categorical unfitness, zero character, and non-conservative maladies. It’s a fair question to ask whether judges and a handful of actual conservative issues is worth the price.

    That’s not how I would put it. I would say of someone who disapproved of all that, but voted Trump anyway, that they voted for someone who embodied all of that despite all of that. Just as I voted for Biden despite knowing he will pursue policies of which I disapprove.

    I just don’t see the point in trying to make people sound like they approve of something they don’t. But they should be realistic about the things they disapprove of. If I professed shock that Biden enacted lefty policies I should be ridiculed. But I won’t be shocked.

    Patterico (193ccd)

  72. there would only be one guy left to take the fall with all those pardoned people compelled to testify as they have no more 5th Amendment rights.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/26/2020 @ 10:47 am

    I’m sure they would find a way to avoid being forthcoming. I mean look how hard Flynn fought for the right to not tell the truth. And they have Rudy sitting first chair.

    I am curious if Trump pardons Ghilsaine.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  73. Trump’s pardon doesn’t protect anyone from state charges so they could just plea the 5th. but I think they would just lie.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  74. I voted for Trump twice

    Assuming that means you voted for Trump this time around, DRJ, I have to say I did not expect that. However, if so, knowing that strengthens my resolve not to disapprove of people simply because they voted Trump, and reinforces my belief that some people had motivations for voting for him that have nothing to do with cheering on his worst actions and traits.

    I’d be interested in your reasoning should you care to articulate it. I think it would really help explain how 70 whatever-it-is-now million people voted for the guy.

    Patterico (193ccd)

  75. @69. ‘The show must go on’ — and it will if he drops a nickel for himself. That seismometer-scrawl of his on his own pardon would be quite the legal earthquake to litigate. What better way to stay in a hungry media spotlight for months and months while ‘bigfooting’ Ol’Joe’s messaging– now six days it his 79th year.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  76. Patterico (193ccd) — 11/26/2020 @ 9:42 am

    The interview did indeed happen after Flynn lied to multiple Trump administration officials

    A quibble: This was before there was a Trump administration, although he lied after the Jan 24 interview, too

    about whether he had spoken with the Russian ambassador.
    About whether he had spoken with the Russian ambassador about sanctions

    The first leak, on or about January 12, was that he had spoken, with the (Obama) Administration official conforming nothing about what he had spoken about.

    The FBI (almost ertainly) arranged for the second series of leaks in February, this time specifically saying that a sanctions had been discussed, and this time to more than one outlet.

    Finally they got Trump to fire Mike Flynn. I’ll say this thing they did out of patriotism because, although they had no specific evidence, they thought, based upon his public record, that Mike Flynn was a Russian agent who had been recruited back when he was head of the Defense Intelligence Agency. (He spent a day at GRU headquarters and everything he advocated seemed to be something in line with Russian foreign policy – we should be allies against ISIS etc.)

    Obama had been content to just fire him and couldn’t explain to Trump or anybody why he thought Mike Flynn was such a bad choice for National Security Adviser…

    He couldn’t say “I think he could be a Russian spy” because then the question would be “Why did you leave this unresolved?” (to which the true answer could have been: “I thought he could never get another top level U.S. government job.” “And I didn’t want criticism from people who respected his military career.” “And I had pity on him.”)

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  77. During the public debate on the constitution, the pardon power (particularly for treason) was a hot topic.

    Luther Martin The power given to the President, of granting reprieves and pardons, was also thought extremely dangerous, and as such opposed. The President thereby has the power of pardoning those who are guilty of treason, as well as of other offences; it was said, that no treason was so likely to take place as that in which the President himself might be engaged, — the attempt to assume to himself powers not given by the constitution, and establish himself in regal authority; in which attempt a provision is made for him to secure from punishment the creatures of his ambition, the associates and abettors of his treasonable practices, by granting them pardons, should they be defeated in their attempts to subvert the Constitution.

    Again, there is an inherent assumption that he could not pardon himself. Nowhere in the Convention debates, nor in the ratification debates, does it suggest or even contemplate that the Executive could pardon himself.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. I’m sure they would find a way to avoid being forthcoming. I mean look how hard Flynn fought for the right to not tell the truth. And they have Rudy sitting first chair.

    Dustin, the care not pardoned for future lies, and I’ll bet that Flynn tells the God’s-honest truth to the FBI in the future. BUt they can be compelled to testify and jailed indefinitely if they do not.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  79. @77. A traditional swamp creature wouldn’t try; a Frankenstein would. He has nothing to lose by trying- and everything to gain.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  80. Trump’s pardon doesn’t protect anyone from state charges so they could just plea the 5th. but I think they would just lie.

    Since the charges against Trump during his time in office would be federal charges (and they could have use immunity against state charges if applicable) they would have to talk. And if they lie, the pardon doesn’t help them for later offenses.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. I voted for Trump twice

    I voted against Trump all 4 times I could. I’ve never voted for a Democrat for President, although it’s always possible, I guess.

    In a state where it doesn’t matter how one votes, but one does not want to vote for Trump, voting for Biden is a preference. There are other candidates and the Biden votes says you did not like any of them as much. It may not be a strong preference, and it certainly does not suggest rabid agreement, but it IS a preference.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. In a state where it doesn’t matter how one votes, but one does not want to vote for Trump, voting for Biden is a preference. There are other candidates and the Biden votes says you did not like any of them as much. It may not be a strong preference, and it certainly does not suggest rabid agreement, but it IS a preference.

    No single vote will ever decide a presidential election. I described my reasons for my vote in a piece I wrote published in The Dispatch.

    Patterico (193ccd)

  83. You could actually think a third party candidate is worse (although maybe not a supporter of a particular ideology, but vote for that person because it would be seen as a protest and as a vote for more choices.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  84. My Biden vote was not a preference for Biden. I think I’ve made that pretty clear. Biden was Trump’s competition. My vote said one thing: I want Trump out. A Biden vote was obviously the most powerful way to say it.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  85. Sammy, I could vote my horoscope, too. The point I am trying to make is that ANY vote not for Trump is a vote not for Trump. After that, it’s a preference. I prefered someone other than Biden/Harris.

    The actual vote makes no difference itself, but I wanted a larger third party vote as a protest against my major-party choices.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  86. Dustin, in your state it was an active contest. Even though the individual vote might not count, the statistical set of Dustin-like voters should be voting for Biden there.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  87. @84. “Adults” who voted ‘against Trump’ for reasons of persona outweighing policy differences versus those who voted ‘for Biden’ for reasons of persona over policy differences is a relatively easy pattern to read.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  88. @84. “Adults” who voted ‘against Trump’ for reasons of persona outweighing policy differences versus those who voted ‘for Biden’ for reasons of persona over policy differences is a relatively easy pattern to read.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/26/2020 @ 12:23 pm

    Interesting thought.

    With Trump, benefiting his persona is his policy. He is an extreme, a freak, and it’s silly to discuss decisions relating to him as though these principles apply to anything else. It’s like if you’re shopping for cars and one of them is extremely radioactive but gets great gas mileage and has a nice driver’s seat.

    But character has always been important to my vote. Policy warnings are often a trick, a way to wedge voters and control demographics using data.

    Obama’s platform in 2008 included that marriage was between a man and a woman. Bush’s was pro-life. trump’s was that Obamacare shall be repealed and replaced, and spending would be cut.

    None of that actually seemed to matter directly. In a lot of cases, these policies were the opposite of that leader’s actual impact on society.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  89. Obama’s platform in 2008 included that marriage was between a man and a woman. Bush’s was pro-life. trump’s was that Obamacare shall be repealed and replaced, and spending would be cut.

    None of that actually seemed to matter directly.

    Don’t underestimate the media’s ability to frame examples differently. Obama “evolved” in his decision to go against his 2008 platform. Most Obama supporters gleefully went along with it. Bush’s “read my lips” moment cost him the presidency.

    Hoi Polloi (3bc019)

  90. @74

    I think I speak for most Trump voters is that we voted for the continuation of general GOP/Conservative/center-right policies. It wasn’t that most of us worshiped the ground that Trump walks.

    There certainly seem to be some worshippers out there, but again: I understand that motivation for voting for Trump, as long as you acknowledge the bad aspects of what he does. (Most Trump voters acknowledge some of it but frankly not all of it, because they would have a tough time justifying their vote if they did.) But the whole “we’re not going to have sympathy for you” attitude is, in my view, nasty and unwarranted, especially when you yourself received charity.

    Patterico (193ccd) — 11/26/2020 @ 10:40 am

    I was one of the first one here on this blog post election arguing that the Trumpers and anti-Trumpers need to extend grace to each other and work together on common interests.

    It’s okay to disagree.

    What *I’m* disappointed about, are folks not wanting to work within the GOP party/movement to advance common goals. And, if I’m not mistaken, you don’t consider yourself a “GOPer”.

    I understand that there are a “bridge too far” with respect to Trump, but the GOP isn’t Trump, not is Trump the GOP.

    whembly (c30c83)

  91. Most Obama supporters gleefully went along with it.

    I do get a chuckle out of that. A lot of them say Obama just lied about his platform, and they say that to defend him!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  92. @62

    Then take it from me, whembly, if how someone votes is the decider for you. I voted for Trump twice and I say this as emphatically as Patterico did:

    It would be nice if Trump voters showed the same charity to Biden voters that [Patterico has] consistently shown here to Trump voters who made it clear that they voted Trump with misgivings (the same way [Patterico] voted for Biden with misgivings). But the Trump voters around here at least, generally speaking, will probably not show that charity …

    .The election was over three weeks ago on November 3. Accept the results and how people here voted. Let’s all be adults again.

    DRJ (aede82) — 11/26/2020 @ 10:10 am

    I’ve accepted it.

    I just don’t agree with the narrative that Trump is undermining the election by trying to hash things out in court.

    Until we all agree that it’s okay to disagree with one another, it’s going to be very hard to be “adults” again imo.

    whembly (c30c83)

  93. @63

    I agree, because I think calling him an institutionalist is another way to make the point I was making. IOW he cares more about the Court than the law, which is not my view of how SCOTUS Justice should be.

    DRJ (aede82) — 11/26/2020 @ 10:13 am

    Yup. Folks get mad at him because he isn’t an ideologue like RGB was.

    He’s doing his damndest trying to herd cats across the river.

    whembly (c30c83)

  94. @65

    I think I speak for most Trump voters is that we voted for the continuation of general GOP/Conservative/center-right policies.

    You also voted for all of his categorical unfitness, zero character, and non-conservative maladies. It’s a fair question to ask whether judges and a handful of actual conservative issues is worth the price.

    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 11/26/2020 @ 10:22 am

    More than fair I would argue.

    Just as it’s fair to consider, what’s the alternative? (the craziness infecting the Democratic party now)

    whembly (c30c83)

  95. @71

    You also voted for all of his categorical unfitness, zero character, and non-conservative maladies. It’s a fair question to ask whether judges and a handful of actual conservative issues is worth the price.

    That’s not how I would put it. I would say of someone who disapproved of all that, but voted Trump anyway, that they voted for someone who embodied all of that despite all of that. Just as I voted for Biden despite knowing he will pursue policies of which I disapprove.

    I just don’t see the point in trying to make people sound like they approve of something they don’t. But they should be realistic about the things they disapprove of. If I professed shock that Biden enacted lefty policies I should be ridiculed. But I won’t be shocked.

    Patterico (193ccd) — 11/26/2020 @ 11:02 am

    I like how you articulated this…

    I know you voted with eyes-wide open and that’s a good thing.

    whembly (c30c83)

  96. Regarding Gaetz’s tweets, I *do* think there’s a loud minority of leftist infected with bloodlusts to go after Trump and his orbit.

    I only hope its a tiny minority and the rumblings from the Biden camp wanting to “move on” and not get sucked in a protracted quagmire in going after the previous administration. New adminstrations only has finite bandwidth to initiate their policies, and Biden may not be interested in consuming those bandwidth to prosecute the previous administration.

    whembly (c30c83)

  97. “Regarding Gaetz’s tweets, I *do* think there’s a loud minority of leftist infected with bloodlusts to go after Trump and his orbit.”

    There’s a loud minority of Trumpists (QAnon) who expect Trump to declare martial law and then round up and start executing Democrats. Two of these have been elected to congress, and Gaetz is probably a third.

    Davethulhu (6e0d47)

  98. I’d be interested in your reasoning should you care to articulate it. I think it would really help explain how 70 whatever-it-is-now million people voted for the guy.

    For the same reason I voted for him in 2016. I decided keeping Texas red one more time was important to me.

    It was clear to me in 2016 and again in 2020 that Texans did not like Trump and many were only voting for him to avoid voting for a Democrat. Biden seems more moderate than Hillary so I was even more concerned in 2020 than in 2016, and with good reason. In 2020, other Texas Republicans on the ballot clearly outperformed Trump, Trump did even worse in the conservative suburbs, and Trump’s win over Biden was by a mere 6 points — even less than his 9 point win over a very unpopular Hillary. Even Romney and McCain — who were not popular in Texas or known for their conservative policies when they ran — did far better in Texas than Trump ever has.

    If Trump (or a family member or close surrogate) is not on a future Texas ballot, then IMO Texas will be red by double digits again. However, I am finished voting to save Texas at the expense of every other ideal I believe in. I will never cast another Trump vote, no matter who the opponent is and no matter how blue it makes Texas. I believe there are many, many people like me who won’t give the GOP any more chances. Either the GOP fixes its Trump problem (not to mention its fascination with drama and culture), or I am confident it will lose Texas if the Trump name is on the ballot.

    DRJ (aede82)

  99. And I’m not the only Texan that saw this coming. Why do you think Abbott and the Legislature recently eliminated straight Party voting?

    DRJ (aede82)

  100. You can keep Texas “red” without voting for Trump as president. He’s still Trump, and what effect does it matter if the top of the ticket (again, who is Donald Trump) loses when the acceptable “red” team members down ballot win.

    Also in Texas, Louie Gohmert won, so it’s not like there weren’t other “red” team members that were unacceptable too. It happens every election, sometimes the individual running on whatever team is so bad that the act of casting a ballot for them should require the same consequences of a full bottle of El Toro or maybe Pepe Lopez.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  101. Yup. Folks get mad at him because he isn’t an ideologue like RGB was.

    No, we get mad at him for twisting the law to suit his control of how SCOTUS functions.

    DRJ (aede82)

  102. My individual vote doesn’t matter but a lot of Texas voters think like me, Klink.

    DRJ (aede82)

  103. I’ve accepted it.

    You accepted the results but I also asked that you accept how people here voted.

    I accept Patterico voted differently than I did. Dustin, too. I am sure they will accept my vote. It doesn’t change the respect and agreement I have for them and their opinions. How people vote doesn’t matter. No vote here changed this election. What matters is the discussion.

    DRJ (aede82)

  104. I’ve accepted it.

    I just don’t agree with the narrative that Trump is undermining the election by trying to hash things out in court.

    That’s not all. He has openly said, on Twitter, that he views state legislatures as another alternative for getting himself awarded the votes in states where the electorate voted for Biden.

    That is evil, that is unconstitutional, that is an attempt to steal the election, and if it worked the people would be justified in responding with force — because the alternative of an election would have been stolen from them.

    You ought to see this for what it is and say something.

    Patterico (193ccd)

  105. For those who don’t understand why I care that Texas is red, it has nothing to do with national politics or Beltway issues. It is because Texas will function better with conservative State and local leaders, and right now that means Republicans. If most of the Texas GOP becomes Trump populists, then IMO Texas Democrats will take control of more local governments and probably State government.

    DRJ (aede82)

  106. Exactly, Patterico 104. Good point.

    DRJ (aede82)

  107. I understand that there are a “bridge too far” with respect to Trump, but the GOP isn’t Trump, not is Trump the GOP.

    Considering the folks I’ve had to tolerate in the Big Tent GOP (who generally would not tolerate me), the Trumpies are just one more in a long line. Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson, Alan Keyes and Gary Bauer all ran for President, some of them twice. The Christian Right controlled large segments of the party during the 90’s (conveniently forgotten now) and if they had the power would have made the Bible the founding document. In the other direction. John McCain was a hero, but pretty wishy-washy outside of foreign policy where his inclination was to bomb.

    Maybe we need a system that does not demand two giant parties. But until we do, I gotta pick one, and I can pick based on which serves me best, or I can pick based on anger and bile. I choose the first. YMMV.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  108. That is evil, that is unconstitutional, that is an attempt to steal the election, and if it worked the people would be justified in responding with force

    Anyone elected that way would be the last president of the UNITED States.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  109. Trump won Texas in part with more Hispanic voters. IMO Texas Hispanics can be reliable conservative votes. They are usually religious, disfavor abortion, are strong family voters, hard-working, etc. But they also tend to admire authoritarians, and that may be part of Trump’s appeal this year.

    DRJ (aede82)

  110. OT: What do you think about the Governor closing some of the grocery stores, Kevin? That would be a problem in Texas. Will New Mexicans accept it?

    DRJ (aede82)

  111. BTW, I’ve been saying exactly that for a few weeks (although I could not put my finger on the unconstitutional part until you pointed out the “assigned date” bit). Now, I don’t even think states can change their laws in advance to withdraw the choice from the voters, but they certainly cannot after the fact.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  112. What do you think about the Governor closing some of the grocery stores, Kevin?

    She has backed off a bit on that in places where there’s not a lot of choice — a lot of small towns. The idiocy was the threshold being 4 employees whether it was a mom&pop or Walmart. Even the lefty newspapers were not on board with that.

    In theory, though, with a pandemic that is completely out of control closing a store that has widespread exposure among the employees IS a public health issue. The way they went about it was bureaucratic (i.e. stupid).

    I think locking up all the horny youngsters would have more effect, but that might be problematical.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  113. I gotta pick one, and I can pick based on which serves me best, or I can pick based on anger and bile.

    That isn’t how I see it. I vote based on current concerns AND based on how my vote might influence future events.

    DRJ (aede82)

  114. I really enjoyed DRJ’s discussion and I agree with her that Texas having republican leadership is a good thing (I say that having a somewhat bitter awareness of what local democrat governments can do wrong).

    Dustin (4237e0)

  115. It is because Texas will function better with conservative State and local leaders, and right now that means Republicans.

    I still don’t get this. You’re not required to vote straight party, you can choose whoever you want for every office. Voting for Donald Trump as president, has zero effect on any other elected office at the state or local level. I could see a, albeit small, correlation between congress and president, but not state offices.

    A vote for Donald Trump is a vote for him, no more or less.

    Trumpism has, absolutely and probably permanently, displaced any party loyalty to the party for me. I’m much more pragmatic, and the response to foreign policy, economic policy, and the travesty of the management of Covid, up and down the Trump party makes me want to throw the bums out. But that’s me, you’re you, and you’ve been open about your disdain for much of the same things, so I guess I get it, each person has their own personal decision to make.

    It’s weird; the worst Trump sycophants tend to be those ex-Bill Clinton voters who are now retired on medicare, who worked for the government, that switched because of birtherism, and now complain about the “socialism” that they’ve suckled from the teet of for 30+ years. They also tend to now be overtly racist, and follow/promote the idiotic Qanon parody stuff the most now, believing the Guiliani/Powell/OANN election nonsense the most.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  116. Trumpism has, absolutely and probably permanently, displaced any party loyalty to the party for me

    Well, in the sense that “it’s my party right or wrong”, sure. I mean I didn’t vote for Trump, but I *did* vote for every R on the ballot (this includes judges in NM). And there were some gains. At the legislative level you can talk all you want about voting for the person but the thing operates by party. You correct thcse things in the primaries (and we have some lively ones here), and sometimes the voters in the general election correct you right back, as they did with some hard left Democrats in NM swing districts.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  117. Not only did I not vote R in 2016 or 2020, I didn’t vote R in 1992 or 1996, voting L, L, Perot and L respectively. I have not voted for down-ticket Republicans on occasion but absent any other information, R vs D is an easy call.

    So, no, I don’t just pull the lever, but if I’m guessing it’s at least 80-20 I’ll be happier voting R.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  118. Good points, Klink but that isn’t how I see it. Texas conservatives are status quo so we move slow, but the party knows it is in trouble. For every populist like Gohmert from a reliably red district no matter who he supports, there are many Republican Congressmen and a host of state legislators who have to answer to everyone. The Texas Speaker’s race should tell us who is leading in the short term. I expect the winner will not be a populist.

    DRJ (aede82)

  119. The Texas GOP is going to have a war between the populists and the conservatives, and I don’t want to add the Democrats to the mix by giving them a big win. For now, the Democrats are not a factor but having a Democrat win a national election in Texas might fragment things enough that the populists could take over our state government. Think of it like the 2016 gOP primary where 30-40℅ was enough to give the populists control. I believe conservatives win in Texas if the race is populists vs conservatives, but add in a third variable and I am not sure.

    DRJ (aede82)

  120. Klink, what logic tells you that because of Trump it is better to vote D than R, knowing nothing else?

    His partisans are a minority everywhere, but until now they’ve been loud. What’s required is for people like you to go down to the county meeting and call them assh0les to their face. If not you, whom do you expect to do it for you?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  121. I’m not saying vote D instead of R because Trump and his ilk exist. It’s vote NOT TRUMP, in the presidential that’s a direct choice, in down ticket races if the choice is Trumpist vs anyone, then NO TRUMP, if there’s a conservative option, then sure. In 2020, at the top of the ticket there was a choice between rampant pro-nationalist, pro-authoritarianism, non-conservative, illiberalism; and sanity, sanity is more conservative to me.

    Maybe next year there’s a choice between D and R, but that wasn’t the choice in many instances.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  122. Because things like this happen.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  123. Klink,

    except that’s not what people have been saying. They’ve said unless you repudiate the President and all of his actions, you are persona non grata and that the left should win instead. It’s not voting for the lesser of two evils. It’s allowing evil to reign to spite those that supported the President since he was the leader of the party.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  124. They’ve said unless you repudiate the President and all of his actions, you are persona non grata and that the left should win instead.

    I mean that’s what Glenn Reynolds and Ace of Spades might want you to think Trump’s critics are saying. A lot of that is fringe kooks and actual bots pretending.

    Most of the Trump fans I know in person are awesome people. But here, in political discussion, all we know are our political comments. It’s just going to take a little more charity from everyone to remotely resemble reality, and Russia has learned how to manipulate the situation to give Russia’s mortal enemy the worst president we’ve ever had, badly damaging our democracy and the entire cause of freedom, which is going to be highly profitable to them in many ways (including selling weapons).

    I just wanted Trump to go. I don’t want the ‘left to win’ LOL. I didn’t want “evil” to win to spite you, LOLOLOL. I want you to enjoy this great country and know your democracy and elections are actually great. I want you to recognize that if things were so rigged, Trump never would have beat Hillary, the GOP wouldn’t have won all those House contests.

    There will be another election you can trust. That means all those people talking about civil war are indeed doing a terrible thing they don’t have to do. they are being manipulated.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  125. Dustin,

    read some of the other posts on here without your hatred of the President. Just read them dispassionately. You might be shocked.

    Your harping on Russia deeply concerns me. Where is the evidence that you proclaim absolute that shows Russia Russia Russia as you constantly proclaim? Yet you find it foolish for others to proclaim that some other entity might’ve interfered with our elections.

    As food for thought. Go read Dave’s posts sometime. You’ve shown him much love lately. Yet all he does is insult Republicans and declare them obsolete unless they denounce the President exactly as I stated.

    P.S. You don’t “just want Trump to go.” You want him to be punished, imprisoned, denounced, declared a traitor, etc. You’ve made that clear in your previous posts unless you want to now say they were all hyperbole and you just wanted to have some fun with those that decided to vote for the President.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  126. I certainly want Trump to go, Rob, and I think he should face obstruction charges. That is not hyperbole.

    DRJ (aede82)

  127. DRJ,

    charging the President with charges in the process of doing his duties is surely one way to start violence on the other side. I wouldn’t recommend it. The ballot box is always preferable to the ammo box.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  128. There is evidence of multiple obstructions of justice by Trump. A president should not obstruct justice.

    DRJ (aede82)

  129. @104

    I’ve accepted it.

    I just don’t agree with the narrative that Trump is undermining the election by trying to hash things out in court.

    That’s not all. He has openly said, on Twitter, that he views state legislatures as another alternative for getting himself awarded the votes in states where the electorate voted for Biden.

    That is evil, that is unconstitutional, that is an attempt to steal the election, and if it worked the people would be justified in responding with force — because the alternative of an election would have been stolen from them.

    You ought to see this for what it is and say something.

    Patterico (193ccd) — 11/26/2020 @ 2:33 pm

    Maybe I’m wrong, but Trump’s advocacy for legislature to overturn the election is just another long ling of Trump’s braggadocio attitude.

    He says outrageous stuff that I don’t take seriously, and I hope most Trump voters feel the same way.

    However, if it were to come to fruition, I’d agree with you.

    whembly (c30c83)

  130. read some of the other posts on here without your hatred of the President. Just read them dispassionately. You might be shocked.

    But you aren’t the president.

    I just say it like it is. I take it kinda personally as Trump has proven me wrong on a lot of things. About aspects of my country, racism, the law, and the political party I used to insist was more like me ethically than it ever was.

    Trump’s effort to steal the election came after my anger with him, but they are the best proof yet that I was right. Unfortunately I am sure even greater proof is coming.

    But you and other Trump voters aren’t Trump. I don’t want to spite you. I want you to realize elections are fine, the country can be a great place even with all those lefties, and Trump and Russia were manipulating a lot of y’all.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  131. DRJ,

    what CBS posted is the President carrying out his duties and putting their media spin on it. If you want to have 2 systems of justice where a Democrat can persecute citizens like Obama did with the IRS, killing an American with remote bombs, gun running which led to the death of Americans, with nothing happening, while a Republican gets charged over and over again, just state your choice.

    CBS has made their choice.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  132. P.S. You don’t “just want Trump to go.” You want him to be punished, imprisoned, denounced, declared a traitor, etc.

    Yeah. You’re right that you can tell from the many times I’ve explained why I think so. Trump should have his day in court.

    But my vote for Biden didn’t do any of that. I’m not crazy. I voted for Biden specifically as the most powerful way to get him to leave office. To be honest, I think Trump’s effort to steal the election opens up a completely different conversation about what would be a reasonable response. Fortunately we’re not there yet.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  133. You actually made me laugh Dustin. I cannot even begin to imagine the world you live in where you think Trump and Russia have made one iota of a difference in my mind through propaganda. I vote transactionally for the person I think will get my agenda passed the most. If there isn’t someone available, I leave the vote blank.

    But if you want to claim silly things, I’ll just say you were manipulated by Google, Facebook and China and we’ll call it a fair trade.

    Let’s just agree that we look at things differently and you’ve changed your opinion of people and this country because of Trump. But you’ve decided he was manipulating others instead of you.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  134. Social media has ruined much of society. The limited endorphin rush people get from likes and group think has isolated people and caused them to abandon discourse.

    Can we all at least agree on that much?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  135. You could at least make an effort to understand my views instead of mischaracterizing them as based on bias or hypocrisy, Rob.

    DRJ (aede82)

  136. I understand your views DRJ. I know you value fair play and honesty. I know you feel if crimes were engaged in, the culprit deserves to be punished.

    I would rather live in your world than the one we live in.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  137. I cannot even begin to imagine the world you live in where you think Trump and Russia have made one iota of a difference in my mind through propaganda.

    It’s them chips in the flu vaccine

    happy thanksgiving either way!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  138. Oh, for the days when criminals and dictators were the bad guys.

    noel (9fead1)

  139. Flynn, Manafort and me. You can trust us. Putin is good too.

    Do not trust Sessions, Tillerson, Mattis, Bolton and Kelly. Not Scaramucci or Cohen. Don’t believe them. None of them. While you are at it, don’t believe those book authors, the mainstream media or Fox News. Not the Democrats nor the Deep State.

    Don’t believe the election results.

    Believe me. Only me. And Putin.

    noel (9fead1)

  140. Klink:

    I’m not saying vote D instead of R because Trump and his ilk exist. It’s vote NOT TRUMP, in the presidential that’s a direct choice, in down ticket races if the choice is Trumpist vs anyone, then NO TRUMP, if there’s a conservative option, then sure.

    Of course, if all you care about is sending a national message. But as I said, I also care about Texas government, and right now that means keeping Texas conservatives in charge of the GOP. The Texas GOP will have a reckoning in the coming years because populism has not yet taken over the Texas GOP. But “a Biden victory in Texas would amount to a kill shot to the GOP” both nationally and in Texas. As we learned in 2016, conservatives struggle when populists and Democrats oppose them together. My goal in Texas — not nationally, because that ship has sailed — was to make it a fight between two ideological groups, not three.

    DRJ (aede82)

  141. If you want to talk about national politics, I was thinking about this before the election. I did not want a Biden national win to be a landslide with a mandate. Winning Texas would have given Biden a mandate, and probably would have also meant the GOP might lose the Senate. Neither would be good to me. I like divided government with choices like we had this year.

    DRJ (aede82)

  142. All of this, encapsulate why the Flynn charge was bunk from the get-go (this is to counter the links from the lawfarblog, gotta see BOTH sides… no!?!?!):
    https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/30/trumps-michael-flynn-pardon-is-only-the-beginning-of-the-justice-this-nation-deserves/

    In conclusion:

    Flynn Was a Tool to Get Trump
    So why did the Special Counsel’s Office charge Flynn when he didn’t lie to the FBI, the FBI agents didn’t think he lied, and even if they had been false the statements were immaterial to any legitimate investigative purpose?

    FBI Agent Barnett told U.S. Attorney Jensen the answer: “the Special Counsel Office pursued Flynn simply as a means to ‘get Trump.’” But Americans never heard the answer because a dishonest corporate media buried the story—just as they buried the truth that Michael Flynn is an innocent man.

    whembly (a3f260)


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