Patterico's Pontifications

9/28/2020

Should Chris Wallace Fact Check Trump and Biden Tomorrow?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



This seems mostly right, but I have concerns:

The presidential debates for the 2020 election kick off Tuesday in Cleveland, and many Americans are uncertain about what to expect. One thing is for sure: Fox News Sunday anchor and moderator Chris Wallace will not be tasked with fact-checking the candidates in real-time.

“We don’t expect Chris or our other moderators to be fact checkers,” Frank J. Fahrenkopf, Jr., co-chair, The Commission on Presidential Debates, told CNN’s Chief Media Correspondent Brian Stelter on “Reliable Sources” Sunday. “The minute the TV is off there will be plenty of fact checkers.”

. . . .

If one of the candidates says something incorrect onstage Tuesday, it is the other candidate’s job to raise concern and essentially fact check live, Fahrenkopf said.

Tough decision. You don’t want to pull a Candy Crowley and fact check a candidate incorrectly. But making this announcement makes it seem like Trump’s brand of blatant firehose streams of lies will get a pass. Why have Chris Wallace there in that case?

There are things these guys say over and over that have been proved false. If Wallace knows he is on firm ground, he should correct them. But as the Crowley example showed, he would need to be on top of his game and not just accept something everybody says but that might not be true.

We’ll see. I still think Flynn’s hearing tomorrow makes news. But the tax returns have to be question number one. “To whom do you owe $400 million, Mr. Trump, and should the American people be concerned about any conflicts of interest arising from those debts?”

177 Responses to “Should Chris Wallace Fact Check Trump and Biden Tomorrow?”

  1. No.

    His role in this is to moderate – not investigate.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  2. No. Although they both deserve it. In a world that did not include Trump, Biden would be the master fibber.

    1) Too much “fact-checking” is really opinion-checking.
    2) It distracts from the event — people tune in to get an impression of the candidates, they are not particularly looking to be informed.
    3) It would be better if they fact-checked each other. “There you go again!” “Where’s the beef?”
    4) There is always the appearance of bias.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. It’s not an investigation if Trump claims “our response to covid was 10 out of 10″ “It will go away soon, like magic” or “I won the popular vote” or “history of fraudulent elections” or uses the phrase “universal mail in ballot”.

    Wallace should just respond, “That’s nice Donnie, but those are all lies, care to provide an actual answer based upon the agreed reality that we reside in, not the candy color one in your head?”

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  4. Should moderators fact-check real-time?

    No. And I’ll tell you why: it allows the candidate to filibuster and fill the airwaves so that, it leaves little time for substantive debate.

    Besides, most “fact checkers” have difficultly in differentiating FACTS from OPINIONS.

    I still think Flynn’s hearing tomorrow makes news.

    Yup. Judge Sullivan will deny the motion to dismiss.

    whembly (c30c83)

  5. I agree with DCSCA. Fact Checking is something the opponent may want to do. Wallace’s job is to ask questions. There may be a few he can think of…

    Appalled (1a17de)

  6. wallace’s track record on these matters have been spotty, to be charitable,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  7. The Crowley case is a terrible example, as she aggressively moderated that debate in what was seen as a partisan manner.

    https://nypost.com/2012/10/18/candys-not-dandy/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. It’s not an investigation if Trump claims “our response to covid was 10 out of 10″ “It will go away soon, like magic” or “I won the popular vote” or “history of fraudulent elections” or uses the phrase “universal mail in ballot”.

    Why not let Biden do it? That is, after all, what people do in debates.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. Even better reason: Let Trump dig the hole himself. Interfering only makes it unclear who did the digging.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. Wallace should let us see if Biden is up to snuff. The Trump guys have told us he’s brain damaged. It’s important to see how he handles a tough night, if he has command of the facts. Any commenter here could handle either side of the debate pretty well (or at least recall relevant facts and spot the issues).

    One of the things that has motivated Trump fans is that they cannot trust the media’s bias (which is largely a real problem). After years of CNN and pals, Trump has gotten some benefit of the doubt when he says ‘fake news’. Though a completely neutral moderator would call Trump out far more on lies and bad facts, since Trump is who he is, I hope Biden does it. I think Biden will merely do better than very low expectations, unfortunately.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  11. There will be plenty of fact checking during the debate and after by the media.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  12. I don’t think the moderators should even ask the questions. They should only keep track of time, and nothing else, and I’m not even sure about. All the so-called debates I’ve been seeing seem like group interviews to me. Let the candidates speechify on whatever they want for some length of time, let the opponent respond, and so on, back and forth. That is a debate.

    nk (1d9030)

  13. And I don’t even know why I put in my two cents since I plan not to watch a minute of it (which is different from “I don’t plan to watch a minute of it”).

    nk (1d9030)

  14. he shared andrea mitchell’s brain, talk about a cramped space, according to her memoir,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  15. whats one after yellowstone, that’s interesting, I’m not shelling out for disney plus,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  16. Biden should be fact-checking in the debate, not Wallace.
    However, I see nothing wrong with CNN using chyrons to fact-check his bigger, more obvious lies.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  17. ‘fdr was giving a fireside speech in 1929, as president’ yes he’s got the facts down pat,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  18. This seems like a good general rule. But the I would love to see that be the opening question.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  19. I don’t think the moderators should even ask the questions. They should only keep track of time, and nothing else, and I’m not even sure about. All the so-called debates I’ve been seeing seem like group interviews to me. Let the candidates speechify on whatever they want for some length of time, let the opponent respond, and so on, back and forth. That is a debate.

    nk (1d9030) — 9/28/2020 @ 9:34 am

    The famed debates of a previous era were the candidates going around and taking turns giving speeches.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  20. As Biden’s debate line is ‘be honest’ — Wallace must ask JoeyBee about plagiarism.

    If Chris committed plagiarism, as a journalist, his career would be over in a New York Minute. Credibility is everything. Even ’embellishment’ and ‘exaggeration’ is damaging; ask Brian Williams.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  21. @19. Nah. Watched the JFK-Nixon debates again this weekend. Simple set; two podiums, two chairs, two glasses of water, a moderator and three journalists at a table asking questions relevant to the era. No speeches- Q&A; call and response. They were done well.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  22. @16. Why watch through a filter of chyrons at all? You need a 30-year old news director and a 22 year old chyron typist in Atlanta to tell you what you what you see in Cleveland and do your thinking for you?

    Watch the debate on CSPAN.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  23. #20

    I would ask Biden about the activities of Hunter Biden. He is trading on his father’s position, and Dad’s thoughts about that would be interesting. (Also fun will be Trump returning to the subject matter of his impeachment)

    Appalled (9ab1c3)

  24. If Wallace knows he is on firm ground, he should correct them.

    No way. A moderator who fact checks during the debate, even if done correctly, will be deciding which falsehoods to correct and which to leave alone. That is not the moderator’s job.

    Jim Lehrer was pretty much the model moderator, and he never did any of this nonsense.

    beer ‘n pretzels (d299f9)

  25. They could just make a blanket statement at the beginning: “Trump tells at least 2 lies every minute he is speaking. He will be speaking for an estimate of roughly X minutes. The projected total number of lies Trump will tell is 2x. Please keep that in mind as you watch the debate.”

    Nic (896fdf)

  26. Nic thinks Biden needs no such disclaimer. LOL

    beer ‘n pretzels (9c5589)

  27. @2.Right. Canned lines and advertising catch phrases aside, nobody watching is going to care what they say about the meat and potatoes of policy; it’s ephemeral. The talking heads will do that spin post debate.

    How they look, act and present themselves on television is all that matters.

    Showman Trump has that mastered; he was invited into American living rooms for 14 years.

    Biden? Well, he’s done this before when he was younger but Trump ain’t Palin. This forum lacks the safe decorum of the Senate, too. Here’s the deal: lose the old-fart tri-tipped breast pocket hankie circa 1956, don’t squint and stop frowning like you’ve sucked on a lemon for debate prep.

    The medium is the message.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. “I have railed against fact-checkers on this blog many times….”

    Debate Open Thread: The Candidate Must Be the Fact-Checker
    http://patterico.com/2012/10/16/debate-open-thread-the-candidate-must-be-the-fact-checker/

    Serious question: What changed?

    beer ‘n pretzels (9c5589)

  29. It will be a show, that is for sure. We know what Trump will bring to the table. It will be interesting to see how much Biden has changed since his last VP debate almost 8 years ago.

    Every media company will be fact-checking Trump in real time, so I don’t think the moderator should attempt to do so.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  30. Credibility is everything.

    I agree, DCSCA. What makes you believe that Trump is more than credible than a guy who didn’t attribute someone else’s words 30-some years ago? How can a guy who told more than 20,000 lies in 45 months be more credible than a guy who told a fraction of that number?

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  31. @27 Much more difficult to make one for Biden. Sometimes he straight up tells God’s honest truth and most of what he does is story telling BS rather than actual lying. So a Biden blanket statement would be more like: “Some of what Biden says will be truthful. The rest of the time what he says will be somewhere between ankle and neck deep folksy BS.”

    Nic (896fdf)

  32. You need a 30-year old news director and a 22 year old chyron typist in Atlanta to tell you what you what you see in Cleveland and do your thinking for you?

    Why would you belittle my character by assuming (wrongly) that someone else would thinking me? A fact-checking chyron falls under the general category of journalism, and the news channels do purportedly exercise journalism from time to time.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  33. @23. But Hunter is more ‘symptomatic’ to the Biden core issue of ‘be honest’ — and Hunter isn’t running for POTUS, Plagiarist JoeyBee is.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  34. @33. Your ‘character’ has nothing to do w/it. It’s simply an issue of allowing yourself to be used as a passive viewer and letting others w/a clear agenda frame the image you’re seeing.

    Watch it on CSPAN.

    It is actually more enjoyable.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  35. Your ‘character’ has nothing to do w/it. It’s simply an issue of allowing yourself to be used as a passive viewer and letting others w/a clear agenda frame the image you’re seeing.

    Yeah, you just confirmed that you’re demeaning my character. It’s as I’m unable to watch CNN or some other channel and not come to my own conclusions. Don’t be an a$$, dude.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  36. @31. Fraction? Over 47 years? ROFLMAOPIP. Show your math. And there’s more to Biden’s plagiarism patterns than one episode. Do your homework.

    America knew the product it was buying when it hired Trump. Never forget: in this era, Americans don’t want to be governed; they wish to be entertained.

    “No miracle is coming” is not entertaining.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  37. @36. ROFLMAOPIP

    Chryons are literally demeaning characters.

    Dude.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  38. It’s as I’m unable to watch CNN or some other channel and not come to my own conclusions..

    You said it yourself.

    Dude.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  39. “Trump tells at least 2 lies every minute he is speaking. He will be speaking for an estimate of roughly X minutes. The projected total number of lies Trump will tell is 2x. Please keep that in mind as you watch the debate.”

    Because this would remove all doubt about bias!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  40. Debate Open Thread: The Candidate Must Be the Fact-Checker

    That post by Patterico was hours prior to the Crowley incident.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  41. @24. Lehrer was tops. He channeled the flow w/appropriate curiosity if a tangent surfaced while remaining inconspicuous. His professionalism is missed.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  42. It’s as I’m unable to watch CNN or some other channel and not come to my own conclusions

    Why is this demeaning? You probably think the exact same thing about people who watch it on Fox. Do you think that all those applause-o-meter things are there to inform the public? They’re there to tell them how to get to the center of the herd. You say that YOU are immune. Fine. But many are not.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  43. Fraction? Over 47 years? ROFLMAOPIP. Show your math. And there’s more to Biden’s plagiarism patterns than one episode. Do your homework.

    You show your math. Biden plagiarized two or three times. Trump lied tens of thousands of times. You’re all about sliver in Biden and ignoring Trump’s redwood forest. Credibility is everything, no?

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  44. @40 see comment @32

    Nic (896fdf)

  45. You probably think the exact same thing about people who watch it on Fox.

    Mindreading is an intellectually lazy and dishonest practice, Kevin. I really don’t care what channel the debate is on. That’s DCSCA’s issue.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  46. I would love to see the focus-group graphs on MSNBC and Fox superimposed real-time. I bet they sum to a flat line.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  47. No

    Both are capable of belching a “firehose of lies” and I see the moderator as a baseball umpire during the steroid era.
    1. Not their job
    2. Everyone was using steroids (Both candidates are liars)

    steveg (43b7a5)

  48. @41. LOL

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. @44. ROFLMAOPIP. You made the ‘fraction’ claim.

    Prove it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  50. I really don’t care what channel the debate is on.

    Nor do I, but I won’t watch it on a channel that tries to influence everyone with distractions and group-think indicators. Not Fox, CNN or MSNBC. Probably not the networks, either. It won’t influence ME, but it WILL annoy the hell out of me after a while.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  51. You don’t want to pull a Candy Crowley and fact check a candidate incorrectly.

    In what way was Crowley incorrect?

    Obama did refer to Benghazi as an act of terror on the day after; this is a documented fact.

    She was also correct in acknowledging (in the next sentence) Romney’s claim that multiple explanations were offered.

    It seems to me one can argue her recitation of those facts was inappropriate; but not inaccurate.

    We discussed this in the open thread yesterday, here and here.

    Dave (1bb933)

  52. What they say is wholly irrelevant. How they look and act is everything. If Trump ‘wins’ it a victory for Diet Coke. If Biden goes 15 rounds, it’s a ready-made commercial for Geritol.

    The medium is the message.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  53. occasioned by a rowdy movie reviewing crowd,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  54. I’ve been thinking about this, if someone says something obviously incorrect (CV19 killed 20,000,000 or CV19 killed 20,000) and Chris calls them on it I’m not too upset. If It happens all the time I’ll think he did a bad job. But I the public can decide what’s ‘fair’.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  55. and blaspheming islam, was to be punished,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  56. @51. CSPAN makes them bearable. You see what the TD [technical director] sees in the hall. Split screen is best so you can observe reaction and listening skills.

    For example: If Trump answers a question w/a word salad and Biden responds with ‘I’ll have the shrimp cocktail’– would you laugh– or shudder with fear at another gaffe?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  57. Obama did refer to Benghazi as an act of terror on the day after; this is a documented fact.

    No, he didn’t Dave. He was talking in general terms, not about Benghazi in particular. On 9/12, he told Steve Kroft in a 60 Minutes interview that it was “too early to know exactly how this came about”.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  58. Dave, Obama had at least three other opportunities after 9/12 and before the debates to say that Benghazi was a terrorist attack, and he punted every single time until Crowley.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  59. they had (redacted) electronic intercepts, only eli lake pointed this out, I did a whole series of threads on the topic,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  60. Prove it.

    I did. Blue is a pretty color.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  61. @61. ROFLMAOPIP Frog legs be damned- Paul will have the shrimp cocktail. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. ‘Bout time for MSNBC and CNN to demand Trump produce his birth certificate.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. No, he didn’t Dave. He was talking in general terms, not about Benghazi in particular.

    I don’t see how you can honestly claim that.

    The sole topic of his remarks in the Rose Garden was Benghazi. The specific events of the day before are referred to in 11 of 13 paragraphs of the transcript, and the very next sentence after the words “acts of terror”.

    Dave, Obama had at least three other opportunities after 9/12 and before the debates to say that Benghazi was a terrorist attack, and he punted every single time until Crowley.

    That may be, but the question Romney (unwisely) chose to focus on in the debate was what Obama said in his remarks in the Rose Garden. And Romney was mistaken.

    Dave (1bb933)

  64. On 9/12, he told Steve Kroft in a 60 Minutes interview that it was “too early to know exactly how this came about”.

    I don’t see how that’s inconsistent.

    Any intentional murder of diplomats in an embassy or consulate is an act of terror.

    The question of whether the attack was planned in advance or spontaneous doesn’t alter that fact.

    Dave (1bb933)

  65. NBA refs are a better example. Clearly they see themselves as there to manage the flow of the game

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym5HwF9-7XY

    steveg (43b7a5)

  66. Okay, Dave, I grudgingly climb down on Obama’s “acts of terror” phrasing in his Rose Garden speech. What pisses me off is what happened afterward, when Obama and others in the White House told me not to believe my lying eyes in their denials that Benghazi was a terrorist attack, from Susan Rice, to Obama himself, to Hillary, to Jay Carney, and to all of Obama’s other loyal defenders in and out of the White House.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  67. Wallace: should people be concerned about the $400 million? Trump: No everyone already knows I am a crook but for the last four years I have been a crook for the american people stealing them jobs from free traders and china!

    asset (19bf16)

  68. 10.Wallace should let us see if Biden is up to snuff. The Trump guys have told us he’s brain damaged.

    Damaged… well, Plagiarist JoeyBee has had several brain surgeries.

    It’s not the sort of thing a person submits to for routine maintenance – or cosmetics, like hair plugs.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  69. was mittens at that debate?

    mg (8cbc69)

  70. 66, steveg..

    And in many cases, a prescribed outcome, just ask the 2001-02 Sacramento Kings.

    urbanleftbehind (f6cbbf)

  71. Wallace used to be a regular on the Howie Carr Show years ago until he took some questions from callers .Had his bull schiff thrown back at him. Could not take it, That was it. Never appeared again.

    mg (8cbc69)

  72. “Fair and Balanced”…

    ‘In December 2019, Wallace stated at the Washington Media Museum that “Trump is engaged in the most direct sustained assault on freedom of the press in our history”.’

    ‘On October 11, 2006, The Washington Post reported that Wallace had been a registered Democrat for more than two decades. Wallace explained his party affiliation as pragmatism, saying that being a Democrat is the only feasible means of participating in the political process in heavily Democratic Washington, DC.’ -source, wikibio.OyVey

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  73. It’s called financing.

    Ventura Highway (4e64c0)

  74. On October 11, 2006, The Washington Post reported that Wallace had been a registered Democrat for more than two decades.

    What coincidence – in 2006, Donald Trump was a registered Democrat too!

    Dave (1bb933)

  75. Heh!

    nk (1d9030)

  76. @75. Reaganoptics. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  77. Not knowing what moderators do at a debate is comedy gold.

    That’s why they call them debates.
    _

    harkin (ea7bff)

  78. OT: but you knew this would happen…MSM starting to attack Barrett’s faith:

    https://apnews.com/article/new-orleans-donald-trump-amy-coney-barrett-us-supreme-court-courts-1be61f7c3427e41326038e5cdab54839

    Rep. Omar has been in the political spotlight for years and the MSM has looked the other way at her faith, her upbringing, and her marriage fraud.

    But hey, some religions are better than others…

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  79. They are fine with that, orange mad bad you know.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  80. When Muslim men force women to cover up, Democrats celebrate the hijab.

    When a Catholic woman devotes herself willingly to her family, they attack.

    But hey, I’m sure it all change when super dooper ultra-Catholic Biden is elected.

    And the media will swoon as people start shooting people through their front door.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  81. Oh, yeah! Well just you wait and see when the six Catholics on the Court don’t just make eating meat on Fridays illegal, they make eating fish mandatory, vegans and babies too.

    nk (1d9030)

  82. Or is it seven? I can’t remember if Gorsuch went from Anglican to Papist, or from Papist to Anglican.

    nk (1d9030)

  83. Oh, yeah! Well just you wait and see when the six Catholics on the Court don’t just make eating meat on Fridays illegal, they make eating fish mandatory, vegans and babies too.

    Trump is already going long on Van de Kamp fish sticks.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  84. As long as its not tuna, thats a deal breaker.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  85. Or is it seven? I can’t remember if Gorsuch went from Anglican to Papist, or from Papist to Anglican.

    The latter, I believe.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  86. They are both kind of blanc mange henry tudor might have wonder what was the point.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  87. Gorsuch started as a Catholic, but now he’s Episcopalian non-religious.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  88. I think Barrett is going to be a pretty level-headed, even-keeled Justice. The Seventh Circuit is not known for firebrands from either end of the spectrum.

    nk (1d9030)

  89. Or is it seven? I can’t remember if Gorsuch went from Anglican to Papist, or from Papist to Anglican.

    “Papist” is one of those Archie-Bunker words that let you know EXACTLY where the comment is coming from.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. A Scots Presbyterian?

    nk (1d9030)

  91. I don’t remember if it was in the movie, too, but that’s what Captain Blood called himself in his defense that he was loyal to King James II despite having treated a wounded Protestant rebel.

    nk (1d9030)

  92. In what? 1935?

    I guess I could claim that I got stuff from “Charlie Chan in Egypt” and it would be OK.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  93. So, tomorrow, if (HA!) the subject of Trump’s tax returns comes up, should Trump:

    1. Deny these are his returns.
    2. Say that the Times will not provide the material they have, so he cannot comment. “In court, we get to face accusers and cross-examine. In the press it’s just whatever they want to say goes.”
    3. Admit that they might be his returns, or some early versions. Then say that they are quick to point out those years where he paid little taxes, but ignore years where he paid hundreds of millions.
    4. Change the subject to how he’s planning to forgive rents this year, due to Covid-19. Real soon now.
    5. Attack the Times, Wallace, the backstage staff and God for his problems.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  94. @93 I’ve used it from time to time in a context of humor, but then I am one, so I’m allowed. I also called myself a yank once in front of a southern friend, who was horrified and told me I should never ever say that about myself. I very politely did not explain that I was perfectly proud of my relatives who had fought on the correct side of the war. 😛 (also at the time I was newly back from living in Europe and I was using more in the British sense, but oh well 😛 )

    @97 If it comes up he’ll say he hasn’t seen them so he can’t be sure one way or another, but the times doesn’t like him so much so he thinks they probably aren’t and the Times is lying and then he’ll attack the Times for bias and dirty dealing and say that they are failing.

    Nic (896fdf)

  95. @97. “$750. I’m smart.”

    [Thunderous applauses in Cleveland auditorium, Akron bars, all of Moon Township, most of Texas… the Scranton Dairy Queen… and a Wilmington Pizza Hut.]

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  96. The most important of speech is the audience. On the other hand, you are not my audience, you are Patterico’s. So I take back “Papist” and substitute “Roman Catholic”, and I apologize to everyone who was offended by my use of the word.

    nk (1d9030)

  97. ignore years where he paid hundreds of millions

    He never paid “hundreds of millions”.

    Dave (1bb933)

  98. “I’m smart.”

    “…That’s why I lost money hand over fist for decades and my orange ass is in hock for about half a billion dollars.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  99. @97

    6. Challenge Biden to a drug test.
    7. Challenge Biden to an IQ test.
    8. Call Biden a ped*ph!le.
    9. Insult Biden’s dead wife and children.

    Trump really has all kinds of options.

    Dave (1bb933)

  100. @102. “I’m smart.”

    That’s why banks kept- and keep- lending to him.

    Reaganomics, Davey.

    “You can’t cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump.” – Larson E. Whipsnade [W.C. Fields] ‘You Can’t Cheat An Honest Man’ 1939

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  101. I think it would be a mistake for Biden to focus too much on the tax business.

    Assuming a question is asked, Biden can use his response to reinforce the overarching message that Trump is a failure, a fraud and a sociopath.

    Biden’s central focus should always be on a competent, science-based response to the pandemic, though, as the key to economic revival.

    He can return to Trump’s taxes and/or business failures later in the debate (as zingers/one-liners) to smack Trump down when he tries to get feisty or brag.

    Dave (1bb933)

  102. “Then there’s the pandemic. “Is Trump trying to play it down?” she asks. “Yeah. But when this first started, the news media was saying that millions of people were going to die. And look at it: 200,000, compared to the population.”

    What worries her more are the effects of the response to the pandemic in a liberal city like New York. “Crime is in my neighborhood now. There’s a homeless encampment near me that’s growing and growing. They have a living room and a shower curtain and that’s where they go to the bathroom. I have a guy who walks in front of the store every day. In a diaper! And there’s lawlessness coming into the store every day, with an attitude of ‘Who’s gonna stop me?’” Regarding Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York, she adds, “I can’t put into words how inept this guy is.”

    That’s a NYC lesbian explaining in The New York Times why she’s voting Trump.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/28/opinion/trump-voters.html
    _

    harkin (ea7bff)

  103. I apologize

    Thank you, nk. That word hearkens back to a time when Catholics were said to have dual loyalties to the Pope. I realize that you did not mean it in that sense, but still….

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. I think it would be a mistake for Biden to focus too much on the tax business.

    Particularly if there is another shoe to drop.

    I also wonder if the whole Hunter fiasco is going to come up. If it does, the worst thing would be for Trump to pile on. Which means he will do just that, and loudly.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. He never paid “hundreds of millions”

    He got over $700 million REFUNDED later. That only happens if you pay it first. The tax laws may be lax, but they aren’t so lax that they refund money you haven’t paid.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  106. 6. Challenge Biden to a drug test.
    7. Challenge Biden to an IQ test.
    8. Call Biden a ped*ph!le.
    9. Insult Biden’s dead wife and children.

    6. Hmm. Maybe. If he’s talking real fast and unable to stand still, I would too.
    7. Bwaahahaha! Biden in his prime was noticeably smarter than Trump in his prime. And it is _really_ hard to lose lots of money at business when you start with a few billion. He would ahve been better putting it in mutual funds and buying booze and hooors with the interest.
    8. That might be one of the few things a politician could win a slander suit over.
    9. I think that is probably beneath Trump. Something has to be.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  107. He got over $700 million REFUNDED later.

    $72.9M, as I explained to you here and here.

    Dave (1bb933)

  108. 8. That might be one of the few things a politician could win a slander suit over.

    Trump already did it, two weeks ago.

    Dave (1bb933)

  109. How thhey look, act and present themselves on television is all that matters.

    In the Nixon-Kennedy debate, those who heard it on the radio thought Nixon won. Those who saw it on TV thought Kennedy won, mainly because Nixon had 5 o’clock shadow, and his suit poorly contrasted with the studio background.

    So yeah, debates are almost all style, with little substance, and attempts at gotcha moments. If we had real candidates, they should mutually agree to end the farce.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  110. Who is Hunter sleeping with today, grandpa?
    a stripper and her pole?

    mg (8cbc69)

  111. During the debate Trump should announce he is declassifying everything on the russia hoax and the criminals are being arrested as I speak. And Putin smiled.

    mg (8cbc69)

  112. The pathetic DoJ has turned over handwritten notes that make it quite clear that the scum at the FBI knew they had no legitimate case against Flynn. The conclusion can only be that the FBI wanted to kneecap the new Trump administration. These are “earthquake” revelations not because we didn’t already know this, but because it’s scary to see it all in writing. Sullivan and his buddy Raiph Kramden need rubber cells and no gym time.

    mg (8cbc69)

  113. More than 100 comments convince me I’m right. All we learn from these so-called debates is what’s important to the media. The parties should chip in to buy their own airtime and hire a moderator from the American Arbitration Association to make sure it’s divided up equally, and the candidates should say whatever they want. Statements of their own positions, questions to their opponents, farmer’s daughter jokes, whatever.

    nk (1d9030)

  114. The pathetic DoJ has turned over handwritten notes that make it quite clear that the scum at the FBI knew they had no legitimate case against Flynn. The conclusion can only be that the FBI wanted to kneecap the new Trump administration. These are “earthquake” revelations not because we didn’t already know this, but because it’s scary to see it all in writing. Sullivan and his buddy Raiph Kramden need rubber cells and no gym time.

    The FBI’s DIOG mandates that FBI management review and approve of any new investigation. The case agent writes the predication for the investigation and the supervisory agent approves it. But Sztrok, an SES-level manager at the time, decided to investigate all by himself. So he wrote the opening predication for the investigation, and then approved it.

    All good in Obama’s FBI…

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  115. Why does a dead partisan judge get a funeral? And my friends don’t?
    Lord, I hate this hypocrisy.

    mg (8cbc69)

  116. nk, are you president of the American Arbitration Association or a paid lobbyist?

    mg (8cbc69)

  117. How about Alex Marlow asking a few questions?

    mg (8cbc69)

  118. The FBI’s DIOG mandates that FBI management review and approve of any new investigation. The case agent writes the predication for the investigation and the supervisory agent approves it.

    How can there be a “case agent” before there’s an investigation?

    Or when an investigation is triggered by a referral from outside the bureau?

    Dave (1bb933)

  119. Also, the DIOG says nothing of the kind…

    Dave (1bb933)

  120. Also, the DIOG says nothing of the kind…

    Trump is not relying on the votes of people who would know such things, Mr. Dave.

    nk (1d9030)

  121. Today’s word of the day is snollygoster. It’s way better than “malarkey”. Biden should use it.

    (n.) someone, especially a politician, who acts for personal gain instead of consistent, respectable principles.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  122. Biden’s been using it for 48 years.

    beer ‘n pretzels (0dff34)

  123. Biden had to scrape by on $48,000 back in ‘72 — he’ll tell you. Now he’s a very wealthy man, even if you forget Hunter. All as a “public servant”. How does that happen, Montagu?

    beer ‘n pretzels (0dff34)

  124. Biden had to scrape by on $48,000 back in ‘72 — he’ll tell you. Now he’s a very wealthy man, even if you forget Hunter. All as a “public servant”. How does that happen, Montagu?

    He peddled baseless innuendo on the internet for Putin?

    You think we don’t know that Trump’s oppo research has gone through Biden’s financial history with a microscope? You think we don’t know that if there was anything there, it would be out in the open every day in Trump ads? In short, do you think we’re Trump supporters or something?

    nk (1d9030)

  125. Also, the DIOG says nothing of the kind…
    Dave (1bb933) — 9/29/2020 @ 5:20 am

    Yes, it does.

    Case agent is a term for a non-supervisory special agent who works cases and does not manage squads. Sztrok was an SES-level manager at FBIHQ. Why was he opening his own investigations and then approving it?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  126. FYI, since you don’t seem like you know what you are talking about, Dave, nor capable of looking it up yourself:

    2106 DIOG: 3.4.2.3 – No Self Approval Rule: an approving official may not “self approve” their own work

    But hey, in Obama’s FBI, it’s all about hiding from the FISA court the ramblings of a known liar peddling his Russian intelligence agent’s lies.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  127. Yes, it does.

    No it doesn’t.

    I haven’t been able to find this supposed smoking gun.

    It has emerged in the last day though that Flynn’s lawyers submitted altered versions of Strzok’s notes in their court filing, with hand-written notations that were not written by him and which a created false impressions of the documents.

    Presumably they’ll be charged like Clinesmith was, because we know that submitting altered documents is Very Serious Business.

    Dave (1bb933)

  128. Trump Campaign Releases “17 Questions Joe Biden Must Answer In The Debate”

    Your son Hunter Biden received a $3.5 million wire transfer from a Russian billionaire who was married to the former mayor of Moscow. He also had a joint bank account with a Chinese national that financed $100,000 in credit card purchases around the world. This all happened while you were Vice President. Why would people connected to the Russian and Chinese governments want to give your son millions of dollars?

    You recently said you “got started” at Delaware State University, an HBCU. The school says they have no record of you ever attending. What did you major in there?

    In June you said you were vetting your own potential Supreme Court picks and promised you would release your own list. Now you say you won’t release a list. Why go back on your pledge?

    Your running mate Kamala Harris said last year that she was open to adding as many as 4 seats to the Supreme Court. Now more leading Democrats are saying your party should pack the Supreme Court if they get the chance. Are you refusing to answer whether you will go along with this radical plan because you are too weak to stand up to it?

    In January 2017, you said that Democrats should not block President Trump’s nominees for the Supreme Court. You said you believe the Constitution “requires” the Senate “to give the nominee a hearing and a vote.” In 2016 you said “would go forward with the confirmation process” of a Supreme Court nominee “even a few months before a presidential election … just as the Constitution requires.” Now you say the Constitution requires the exact opposite. How do you reconcile that change?

    In 2008 you promised Americans that if they made less than $250,000 they would not pay a penny more in taxes. You broke that promise and imposed new taxes that directly impacted middle-class Americans. Now you’re claiming you won’t raise taxes on anyone making more than 400,000. Why should voters believe you now, especially since you’ve said you will reinstate the individual mandate tax?

    As Vice President, you oversaw the weakest economic recovery since the Great Depression. What would you do differently if you were elected?

    Your plan would raise the U.S. business tax rate higher than China’s rate. Won’t that make it more expensive for companies to do business in America and ultimately send jobs overseas?

    President Trump imposed restrictions on travel from China on January 31 to combat the spread of the coronavirus. Why did it take you two months to say you supported that decision?

    In 2008 you and Barack Obama promised to fully fund the federal COPS program, which provides resources to local law enforcement. But funding for this program was cut while you were vice president, despite your promise. Why did you fail to keep your word?

    Earlier this year your campaign staff donated money to the Minnesota Freedom Fund, an organization that bailed out of a jail a rioter who shot at police officers and other violent criminals and sexual predators. Your running mate Kamala Harris also urged people to donate to that organization and is still raising money for it. Do you condone that?

    You say if you’re elected you’ll push to give citizenship to the 11 million undocumented people in our country. Why do you believe they should receive Medicare and Social Security benefits?

    When you were running for president in 2007, both you and Obama pledged to renegotiate NAFTA, a promise you did not keep when you were in office. You recently blamed Republicans for this, saying they wouldn’t go along with it, but Democrats controlled Congress in 2009 when the Obama Administration announced it would not even try to change NAFTA. So why did you fail to keep your word?

    When you voted to give China “most favored nation” trade status in 2000, you said you did not foresee “the collapse of the American manufacturing economy” because of it. But by one estimate, it led to the loss of 1 million manufacturing jobs in the U.S. Do you acknowledge that your vote to give China most favored nation trade status was a mistake that hurt American workers?

    The 2009 H1N1 swine flu pandemic infected 60 million Americans when you were VP, and the federal government depleted its strategic stockpile of N95 masks in response. A fact check by USA Today found that your administration made no effort to replenish the stockpile of masks, despite warnings from experts. Do you accept responsibility for that failure, which left America unprepared for another pandemic?

    Your campaign says it is a “lie” that “the Biden-Harris ticket is the most radically pro-abortion” ticket “in U.S. history.” Are there any restrictions on abortion that you support, and if so, please be specific?

    You said the N-word 13 times during a 1985 Senate nomination fight, when you were quoting something attributed to someone else. Do you think that was appropriate to do? Is that the only time you’ve said the N-word?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/trump-campaign-releases-17-questions-joe-biden-must-answer-debate
    _

    harkin (ea7bff)

  129. Speaking of fact checking-

    ‘To Represent All Mississippians’: Hyde-Smith Ad Uses Russian, Canadian Footage

    Canadian, Russian, South African and Ukrainian models appear in U.S. Sen. Cindy Hyde-Smith’s first 2020 campaign ad for her Mississippi campaigns—but no Mississippians. Instead, the ad uses stock footage from foreign production companies as the senator talks about the work she has done to bring jobs and economic growth to Mississippians.
    ……
    Hyde-Smith’s campaign began running the video ad on television and social media on Sept. 23. As Hyde-Smith continues to speak in the ad, she offers a list of things she has done for Mississippians.

    “Like growing our economy with lower taxes, reducing regulations and helping farmers and small businesses bounce back during these uncertain economic times. Because my job is to work for you,” she says, as a montage plays, showing three other people that the ad implies are Mississippians. That ncludes a man in a hard hat working in a warehouse; a farmer walking through a field; and a woman flipping an “Open” sign in a café to “Closed.”

    The Stockyards, a Canadian production company, produced the clip of the man in the warehouse; DedovStock, a Ukrainian production outfit, filmed the clip of the farmer; and Silverblackstock, a Russian company, made the clip of the woman in the café. The companies sell the footage on Shutterstock for between $79 and $179 a clip.
    ……
    It’s a sad day in America when you can’t find Southern belles to star in your campaign ad.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  130. The FBI’s DIOG mandates that FBI management review and approve of any new investigation. The case agent writes the predication for the investigation and the supervisory agent approves it. But Sztrok, an SES-level manager at the time, decided to investigate all by himself. So he wrote the opening predication for the investigation, and then approved it.

    The IG report (page 59) directly contradicts your claim:

    After conducting preliminary open source and FBI database inquiries, intelligence analysts on the Crossfire Hurricane team identified three individuals- Carter Page, Paul Manafort, and Michael Flynn-associated with the Trump campaign with either ties to Russia or a history of travel to Russia. On August 10, 2016, the team opened separate counterintelligence FARA cases on Carter Page, Manafort, and Papadopoulos, under code names assigned by the FBI. On August 16, 2016, a counterintelligence FARA case was opened on Flynn under a code name assigned by the FBI. The opening ECs for all four investigations were drafted by either of the two Special Agents assigned to serve as the Case Agents for the investigation (Case Agent 1 or Case Agent 2) and were approved by Strzok, as required by the DIOG. Each case was designated a SIM because the individual subjects were believed to be “prominent in a domestic political campaign.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  131. Facts won’t matter.

    If Biden shows up, is able to engage, and doesn’t say anything particularly radical, he will be headed to a landslide win. If, after weeks of rest, he is clearly impaired there is going to be an implosion of his support.

    The LAST thing Biden wants is aggressive interference by the moderators; there’s no profit in it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  132. I can only speak to what I have seen with my own eyes:

    https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/JW-v-DOJ-reply-02743.pdf

    If you have any proof that Flynn’s lawyers doctored this document, feel free to post.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  133. Is that exceptable to you, to throw this country into the garbage heap?

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  134. In 2008 you promised Americans that if they made less than $250,000 they would not pay a penny more in taxes. You broke that promise and imposed new taxes that directly impacted middle-class Americans. Now you’re claiming you won’t raise taxes on anyone making more than 400,000. Why should voters believe you now, especially since you’ve said you will reinstate the individual mandate tax?

    This is funny, coming from Trump, whose tax reform added plenty of tax to anyone paying more than $10K in state taxes, which includes quite a bit of the middle class in some states.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  135. Strzok’s attorney provided photographic evidence of the alterations.

    Dave (1bb933)

  136. “As Vice President, you oversaw the weakest economic recovery since the Great Depression. What would you do differently if you were elected?”

    I’m old enough to remember a lot of significance being made to Obama never having a 3%+ GDP growth quarter. Anyone care to guess who else hasn’t had a 3%+ GDP growth quarter?

    “Are you refusing to answer whether you will go along with this radical plan because you are too weak to stand up to it?”

    These questions are idiotic.

    Davethulhu (62e67d)

  137. The “weakest economic recovery since the Great Depression” was also the longest economic expansion in history.

    I don’t think Obama/Biden (or Trump) deserve any particular credit for that (the economy improved in spite of, not because of, their policies).

    Trump’s debt-financed tax cut probably goosed the economy a little, but did so on the backs of America’s children and grandchildren.

    Dave (1bb933)

  138. Better questions for Biden:

    * Do you think it is an acceptable form of protest to kneel, or turn your back, when the national anthem is being played?

    * You call for raising the capital gains tax rate to 39.6% for wealthier taxpayers. This would be the highest rate in 60 years, doubling the current tax. Explain why this would not cause a massive sell-off of stocks immediately following your election. Follow-up: How would such a stock-market crash affect retirees and other savers?

    * Your party has called for eliminating fossil fuels from our economy, to combat climate change. What sources of energy would you have America rely upon? Follow-up: Since solar and wind power are not always available, many have said that only nuclear power can actually accomplish this, but your party opposes all nuclear power. Do you support new, safer nuclear power plants?

    * A number of police officers have been shot in recent days, some from ambush. Many police officers blame these shootings on a climate of hostility supported by many in your party. How can you assure police officers that your administration will have their backs?

    * Should a 15-year-old young woman be able to demand an abortion in the 8th month of pregnancy, regardless of her health or safety, without informing her parents? If not, what limits would you set?

    * Should marijuana be legalized nationally? If so, should imports be allowed? What about other drugs that are currently illegal?

    * Pain medications are increasingly hard for doctors to prescribe, leading to patients not being able to get needed relief for chronic pain. Which is more important: the medical needs of bona fide patients, or the war on drug abuse?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  139. Here’s what I’m expecting tonite.

    Paul Montagu (39c87e)

  140. As for Obama versus Trump on the economy:

    The S&P 500 has increased at about the same rate during both Obama and Trump’s terms, going from about 700 to just shy of 3000 today. This is a gain of 13%/year over the last 12 years. Pretty good if you’re an investor.

    Of course, if you invested in individual stocks, you might have won bigly (Amazon is up a hundred-fold from its December 2008 low) or not (General Electric is trading about the same now as its December 2008 low)

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  141. I’d post questions for Trump but what’s the point.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  142. Still gotcha’s Kevin.

    The most recent ambush, as well as two fatal ones in June, were perpetrated by the white supremacists that Trump actively woos.

    Dave (1bb933)

  143. Tonight is all about whether Biden brought his marbles.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  144. Kevin, Those are all very good questions.

    Time123 (80b471)

  145. @148-
    Except for the first one. Who cares if players kneel or otherwise protest quietly during the national anthem? The more protesting players are ignored the more likely they will end. This is hardly a issue of national importance.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  146. @146: Bet you he hated cops, too. No officer was killed.

    Eight officers have died nationally this year in ambushes, two others in surprise attacks. And for every officer killed, there’s several who “survive” like these two shot in the head:

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1304993095725932545

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  147. Pray for Biden…if you believe in that bull$#%&…

    Dave (1bb933)

  148. This is hardly a issue of national importance.

    It is when Biden has done it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  149. because this was all about capitulation to a marxist agenda, promulgated by an ex terrorist, who tried to blow up the capitol building, and the naval war college, now her minions, mortar courthouses, and lay siege to cities for four months,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  150. 128. Giuliani says Biden was supported by his family, maybe his son Hunter (that;s wrong – it all went to drugs and alcohol and women) – and his brother and others. And implies that maybe Biden did things so they would get money. I think Biden’s defense is that he always kept himself as unaware as possible of their business dealings.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  151. This year, more police have died from Covid than from all other causes combined.

    Davethulhu (62e67d)

  152. @146: The most recent ambush is actually this, Dave, by well known white supremacist Jose Guzman.

    And, the Boogaloos are anti-police, like BLM snd Antifa, who they supported in Portland protests. They’re Kamala’s kind of guys, Dave, who you support.

    beer ‘n pretzels (d299f9)

  153. Biden Releases Tax Returns Ahead of Debate With Trump

    Former Vice President Joe Biden released his 2019 tax returns on Tuesday, showing that he paid nearly $300,000 in federal taxes, seeking to draw a contrast with President Trump in the hours before their first debate.

    Mr. Biden and his wife, Jill, reported receiving $985,233 in adjusted gross income in 2019, a year in which he was mostly running for president.
    …….
    Mr. Biden’s campaign said the latest release means he has now released 22 years of tax records, covering years when he served in the Senate representing Delaware, as vice president and his time after he left the Obama administration.
    ……
    The Bidens reported receiving income from several sources, including Northern Virginia Community College, where Dr. Biden has worked as an English professor, and the University of Pennsylvania, where Mr. Biden established a center for diplomacy after the end of the Obama administration. Mr. Biden also receives a federal pension.

    They reported making $14,700 in charitable contributions, including donations to a Presbyterian church and a Catholic church in Delaware.

    (Kamala Harris and her husband Doug Emhoff) reported receiving $3.1 million in adjusted gross income and paid more than $1 million in federal taxes. Their income included about $265,000 from Ms. Harris’s writing work, but the bulk of the couple’s money came from Mr. Emhoff’s law-firm income.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  154. I want to see Biden’s last 20 years of returns. Not just the ones he knows he’s gonna have to show. It’s my right!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  155. @159, I think his returns for the Obama years and 7 years prior are available….

    Time123 (80b471)

  156. “And, the Boogaloos are anti-police”

    They’re pro-civil war, not anti-police.

    Davethulhu (62e67d)

  157. This is hardly a issue of national importance.

    And yet, how many posts? What about the tax rates? Eliminating fossil fuels? Late-term abortion on demand?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  158. @163: “rethinking” ?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  159. They’re pro-civil war, not anti-police.

    Yeah, and Antifa are anti-fascist for realz.

    beer ‘n pretzels (eabf99)

  160. I want to see Hunters little blue book

    mg (8cbc69)

  161. pro-civil war

    I say give them a taste of civil war: kneel them down in a field and shoot them.

    Civil war is just about the most terrible thing that can happen to a country, destroying every life it touches.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  162. “Yeah, and Antifa are anti-fascist for realz.”

    Glad we agree.

    Davethulhu (62e67d)

  163. it is a terrible thing, the american civil was perhaps less pervasive, the english, the spanish, the lebanese, the yugoslav ones, well you get the point,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  164. sarcasm doesn’t transmit, this outfit was against the weimar republic as much as the nazis, in fact they let the nazis win, because Stalin thought it would be easier to defeat them, a tragic error, jan valtin (albert krug) described this cold calculus, in the night left behind.

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  165. And yet, how many posts? What about the tax rates? Eliminating fossil fuels? Late-term abortion on demand?

    I think those questions are fine.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  166. that’s what the jackass down in kiwiland wanted to do, the dragon’s minion, miss arden, has gone halfway in satisfying these demands, have they rescheduled the election yet,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  167. The most recent ambush is actually this, Dave, by well known white supremacist Jose Guzman.

    Not an ambush.

    Dave (1bb933)

  168. Maybe Trump should have listened to the Lincoln Project:

    Hospitalized Brad Parscale ‘is under investigation for stealing up to $40million from Trump’s campaign and $10million from the RNC’

    Donald Trump’s demoted campaign boss Brad Parscale is under investigation for ‘stealing’ between $25-$40 million from Trump’s 2020 presidential campaign, well-placed sources exclusively told DailyMail.com.

    The 44-year-old is also being investigated for ‘pocketing’ nearly another $10 million from the Republican National Committee, the insiders added.

    Daily Mail report has not been confirmed by other sources that I can find.

    Dave (1bb933)


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