Patterico's Pontifications

6/1/2020

Looking for Peace Among the Riots

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



Insanity reigns today. Trump was rushed to an underground bunker Friday night. Yesterday he declared, in response to domestic actions, that he would designate ANTIFA a terrorist organization — which he cannot do because it is not foreign. The U.S. can prosecute terrorist acts but cannot designate a domestic organization as a terrorist organization.

Innocent shopkeepers are beaten as celebrities and Biden staffers ostentatiously offer to bail out those arrested in the riots.

Never mind the fact that many of the protesters are peaceful and are actually angry at the people, which in some cases are white punks on skateboards, who are vandalizing and looting — and in many cases protesters are fighting to prevent the looting and vandalism.

No matter; these knucklehead celebrities and Biden staffers still want the worst elements back on the street — ASAP.

Police cars are on fire everywhere. My son and I played basketball earlier than we had planned yesterday evening because of the countywide curfew to take effect at 6 p.m. Today all courthouses in Los Angeles County are closed as the area braces for whatever is coming next.

I keep thinking of the Gospel reading from yesterday. Particularly this part:

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

Receive the Holy Spirit. Forgive others their sins as you would have them forgive yours.

Peace be with you.

212 Responses to “Looking for Peace Among the Riots”

  1. Just another example of Donald J. Trump’s blithering idiocy.

    Gryph (08c844)

  2. I note that Culver City was not attacked. Wasn’t attacked in 1992, either, although L.A. buildings near it burned. Do you suppose that civic attitudes matter in this?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. Trump does nothing. Biden’s people give money to the rioters. Pretty much the whole debate in a nutshell.

    I would prefer a President that could think, or act, or at least speak coherently. But I’ll take a bag of rocks over a president who’s actively helping the other side.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  4. 2. Civic attitudes are crucial in sustaining a city.

    Gryph (08c844)

  5. #NotALawyer…

    Antifa *is* an international movement that does seem to have some funding stream(s). They’re everywhere in Europe for example.

    How are they different enough from other international terrorist (ie, ISIS/Hamas) organizations in that labeling them an international terrorist organization wouldn’t apply???

    Furthermore, is something like that really needed? Don’t we have existing laws, like RICO, that can be used here? Or, similar laws like anti-mafia statutes?

    whembly (c30c83)

  6. @3

    Trump does nothing. Biden’s people give money to the rioters. Pretty much the whole debate in a nutshell.

    I’m not sure Trump is doing “nothing”.

    Not sure what else he could do, as in a federal system the states need to request help from the Feds.

    Or, do you consider all the riots under the Insurrection Act?

    I would prefer a President that could think, or act, or at least speak coherently. But I’ll take a bag of rocks over a president who’s actively helping the other side.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/1/2020 @ 8:47 am

    How is Trump “actively helping the other side”??

    whembly (c30c83)

  7. How is Trump “actively helping the other side”??

    WOW! Hard to see how you could have misread that, but you did.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. Sen. Cotton suggests use of Army division that specializes in air assaults to quell protests
    …….
    “ If local law enforcement is overwhelmed and needs backup, let’s see how tough these Antifa terrorists are when they’re facing off with the 101st Airborne Division,” Cotton said in one tweet, referencing the Army division nicknamed the “Screaming Eagles.”

    In a subsequent tweet, the senator listed other military units that he said could be deployed, saying he favors “whatever it takes to restore order.”
    ………
    Not a surprise, since he served in the 101st…..

    Rip Murdock (90b76a)

  9. Great slide show here. Those looters don’t really look like alt-right hooligans.

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-01/lapd-tactics-during-protests-critiqued

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. The 101st was used by Ike to enforce desegregation orders at Central High in Little Rock.

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/central-high-school-integrated

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  11. whembly is right. It is not only ultra vires, “without authority” (or “without manhood” really, choose your Latin), it is unnecessary. Just posturing, that’s all.

    nk (1d9030)

  12. How is Trump “actively helping the other side”??

    WOW! Hard to see how you could have misread that, but you did.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/1/2020 @ 8:57 am

    Yeah…misread you. My bad.

    whembly (c30c83)

  13. The terrorist designation, though probably meaningless domestically, is not really aimed at Antifa per se. I think the goal is to discredit journalists who use Antifa as sources, and who routinely and comically call them “anti-fascists” and generally treat them with kid gloves. It’s a total PR move, and in that context it may be effective.

    beer ‘n pretzels (7d3bfd)

  14. Trump slams governors as ‘weak,’ urges crackdown on protests
    President Donald Trump on Monday derided the nation’s governors as “weak” and demanded tougher crackdowns on protesters in the aftermath of another night of violent protests in dozens of American cities.

    Trump spoke to governors on a video teleconference with law enforcement and national security officials, telling the local leaders they “have to get much tougher” amid nationwide protests and criticizing their responses.

    “Most of you are weak,” Trump said. “You have to arrest people.”
    ……
    The president told the governors they were making themselves “look like fools” for not calling up more of the National Guard as a show for force on city streets.

    Attorney General Bill Barr, who was also on the call, told governors that a joint terrorist task force would be used to track the agitators and urged local officials to “dominate” the streets and control, not react to crowds, and urged them to “go after troublemakers.”
    …….
    Trump continued his effort to project strength, using a series of inflammatory tweets and delivering partisan attacks during a time of national crisis.
    ……..
    Trump can only send angry, provocative tweets. He can’t express any other emotion.

    Rip Murdock (90b76a)

  15. Don’t blame the people who bail out the rioters. Some of the rioters may be lawful protesters or innocent bystanders caught in the drag net. Blame the judges who grant bail the dangerous ones. Blame the cops and prosecutors who don’t tell the judges who the dangerous ones are.

    nk (1d9030)

  16. @10-
    So? What’s your point? Deploying an active duty combat unit against civilians is the same as integrating a high school? The National Guard was deployed against unarmed students at Kent State. That turned out well.

    Rip Murdock (90b76a)

  17. Not sure what else he (Trump) could do…..
    He can stay in his bunker and shut up

    Rip Murdock (90b76a)

  18. Tom Cotton should stick to polishing Trump’s brass.

    nk (1d9030)

  19. Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1385

    nk (1d9030)

  20. Yesterday, the police chief of Bellevue did it right. After Belle Square was getting looted and cops were trying stop it, the chief came right into the thick of the protesters and dialogued.
    The mayor of Atlanta also struck the right chord.

    Paul Montagu (466a99)

  21. Not sure what else he (Trump) could do…..
    He can stay in his bunker and shut up

    Rip Murdock (90b76a) — 6/1/2020 @ 9:13 am

    Then you’d claim he was absentee and abandoned his post. Oh wait, that accusation was already made.

    Heads I win. Tails you lose. That about covers it.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  22. Looters and rioters should be jailed and charged accordingly.

    Peaceful protesters should be treated with respect and not fined and threatened with ruin like Governor Murphy did to protesters a couple of weeks ago.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  23. Rip, the problem with Tom Cotton were these words.

    In a subsequent tweet, the senator listed other military units that he said could be deployed, saying he favors “whatever it takes to restore order.”
    “No quarter for insurrectionists, anarchists, rioters, and looters,” he wrote.

    “Whatever it takes”?
    “No quarter”? He’s an ex-military guy. Anyone who saw Rob Roy or served in the armed forces should know what “no quarter” means, which is basically shoot ’em dead, in an environment where there is already massive distrust of law enforcement and the use of excessive force. It’s about the stupidest thing I’ve heard a politician say these last few days this side of “when they start looting, we start shooting”.

    Paul Montagu (466a99)

  24. #16: They were used to disperse mobs and to make utterly clear the attitude of the federal government.

    From William Manchester’s “The Glory and the Dream”:

    That morning, responding to the proclamation, Secretary of Defense Wilson had placed the Arkansas National Guard in federal service, beyond the reach of Governor Faubus, and General Maxwell Taylor, the Army chief of staff, had assigned the 327th Battle Group of the 101st Airborne Division to bring peace to Central High. Eight C-130 and C-123 transport planes had carried the paratroopers from Fort Campbell, in Kentucky, to Arkansas. As Eisenhower spoke to the nation the first trucks drew up in front of the school. For the first time since Reconstruction days southern intransigence on the issue of race had brought Army rule.

    The difference between these troops and the militia was striking. Both wore the same uniform, but the resemblance ended there. The National Guard was made up of weekend soldiers, easygoing, casual in dress, and slow to obey. The 101st Airborne was a crack outfit, professional in all ways. While salty officers carrying swagger sticks barked commands, disciplined men spilled out of the trucks and formed ranks on the school grounds. Jeeps were parked just so, in a line. Immaculate tents, each the same distance from the others, rose in a field beyond Central High’s tennis courts. Field telephone wires were strung from oaks in the school yard, and before dawn walkie-talkies crackled with the code names of communications men: “Hello, Defiance, this is Crossroads Six. Come in, Roadblock Alpha.”

    Roadblock Alpha was the scene of the day’s most dramatic incident. The barrier had been thrown up in an intersection a block east of Central High. There, in the first olive moments of Tuesday morning, ringleaders began organizing their men. A lanky, lantern-jawed major watched them from beside a sound truck. His voice rasped over the loudspeaker: “Please return to your homes or it will be necessary to disperse you.” They didn’t budge. “Nigger lover,” one of them muttered, and another called, “Russian!” A man in a baggy brown suit shouted to the others, “They’re just bluffing. If you don’t want to move, you don’t have to.”

    The major ripped out a command. Twelve paratroopers with fixed bayonets formed a line and braced their rifle butts against their hips in the on-guard position for riot control; it brought each bayonet on a line with the crowd’s throats. Again the major snapped an order, and the soldiers moved forward. The mob retreated. The man in the brown suit held his ground until the last moment; then he broke and ran. He didn’t run far, however. The Army had won the first skirmish, but the showdown was yet to come. The black children hadn’t even reached the school.

    That moment arrived in a crisp, swiftly executed maneuver. Central High’s 8:45 bell rang. Simultaneously the barricade at Park Avenue and Sixteenth Street opened to admit a lead jeep, an Army station wagon, and a rear guard jeep. They braked together in front of the school, and the Negro children emerged from the station wagon as three platoons of paratroopers ran up on the double with rifles at port arms and formed a semicircle, shielding the children with a hedge of bayonets. A fourth platoon, lining up on either side of the black students, escorted them up the steps. The crowd watched in stunned silence. Then a woman cried brokenly, “Oh my God! The niggers are inside!” Others shouted, “They’re in! They’re in!” Another woman screamed and tore at her hair. The crowd shifted, tilting forward.

    At Roadblock Alpha the throng had thickened. Again the major said harshly, “Let’s clear this area right now. This is the living end! I’ll tell you, we’re not going to do it on a slow walk this time.” Nothing happened, and he ordered the paratroopers to resume their advance. As they came on, the crowd recoiled, hopping, to the front lawn and then to the veranda of a private home, all the time yelling that this was private property, that the troopers had no right to come after them on it. The soldiers didn’t miss a step. Up on the porch they came, and then across it as the mob scrambled backward from the bayonets.

    Those who hesitated were being methodically pushed off the piazza when one of them struck back. He was C. E. Blake, a Missouri-Pacific switchman who had been among the most active agitators during the past two days. Blake seized a soldier’s rifle barrel and dragged him down. As they sprawled together another paratrooper reversed his M-1 and clouted the switchman’s head with the steel butt. Blood streaming from his scalp, he crawled away on all fours shouting at photographers, “Who knows the name of that lowlife son of a bitch who hit me?” Without a glance in his direction the troopers continued to move out while a stony-eyed sergeant called, “Keep those bayonets high—right at the base of the neck.”

    Wish I could quote more of it, but I highly recommend this cultural history of the mid-20th century to those that want to understand the feelings of those times.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  25. ‘Looking for Peace Among the Riots’

    time.com/5842060/spacex-nasa-launch-watch

    “In Space, No One Can Hear You Scream.” – ‘Alien’ 1979

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. 16. For my part, I am thinking (NOT predicting) that this could turn into another Kent State. One for the history books, and not in a good way. I am sincerely hoping it doesn’t come to that, but it might.

    Gryph (08c844)

  27. @121

    NJRob, that’s a false choice. There are options other than saying nothing and saying something harmful to the situation. Some of his political opponents will for sure attack him no matter what he says and does. But that doesn’t mean all criticism is only motivated by political ideology.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  28. Shooting looters on sight has been the rule for a long time. The idea is that you don’t have to shoot many. If you are clearly going to look the other way, you will have nothing BUT looters.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  29. Heads I win. Tails you lose. That about covers it.

    As long as the conclusion is “It’s Trump’s fault!” the lead-up doesn’t matter. As in “Blah blah blah blah, Trump’s fault!”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. Yesterday he declared, in response to domestic actions, that he would designate ANTIFA a terrorist organization — which he cannot do because it is not foreign. The U.S. can prosecute terrorist acts but cannot designate a domestic organization as a terrorist organization.

    You know that. But do the majority of the readers of his tweets know that? The only thing is they probably don’t know what designating an organization as a terrorist organization means. Maybe to Trump, this declaration just sounds good.

    Innocent shopkeepers are beaten as celebrities and Biden staffers ostentatiously offer to bail out those arrested in the riots.

    The cliche trumps reality. I take it they are not judging this on a case by case basis or making any exceptions. It’s not clear that they are relying on the judges. (uncritically)

    whembly (c30c83) — 6/1/2020 @ 8:53 am

    Antifa *is* an international movement that does seem to have some funding stream(s). They’re everywhere in Europe for example.

    Well that would mean Russia or international drug dealers.

    They may actually be different groups that are only loosely linked. Anyway, here’s some background:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/X56rQkDgd0qqB7R68t6t7C/seven-things-you-need-to-know-about-antifa

    Some Antifa groups date the origins of their movement to fights against European fascists in the 1920s and 1930s. Mark Bray, author of Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, says the modern American Antifa movement began in the 1980s with a group called Anti-Racist Action. Its members confronted neo-Nazi skinheads at punk gigs in the American Midwest and elsewhere. By the early 2000s the Antifa movement was mostly dormant – until the rise of Donald Trump and the alt-right.

    The name is being used by different groups, like the name Ku Klux Klan.

    Furthermore, is something like that really needed? Don’t we have existing laws, like RICO, that can be used here? Or, similar laws like anti-mafia statutes?

    It seems like Attorney General William Barr isn’t actually going to do anything more than that.

    If designated a terrorist group, anybody helping them could be guilty of a crime, even if what they did would not otherwise be a crime, and Antifa’s bank accounts maybe could be frozen. If it had any.

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  31. Even though I don’t much care for Trump, some of his detractors are (or ought to be) embarrassing.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  32. Sammy, it has been pointed out that Antifa is international.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  33. Looters and rioters should be jailed and charged accordingly.

    YES

    Peaceful protesters should be treated with respect and not fined and threatened with ruin like Governor Murphy did to protesters a couple of weeks ago.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 6/1/2020 @ 9:35 am

    I’m less concerned with fines then with unnecessary uses of force. I’ve seen several videos of the police using pepper spray is a casual way. I’m sure they were under stress and I suspect that the targets had been rude/disrespectful. But that’s not a justification.

    Check out this https://twitter.com/greg_doucette for several examples.

    Time123 (c9382b)

  34. Next week at the Santa Monica City Council meeting, two competing groups:

    “Why didn’t the cops stop this looting?” and
    “Why did the cops TRY to stop this looting?”

    No bets taken as to which group wins. Those arrested for looting will be let go.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  35. Shooting looters on sight has been the rule for a long time. The idea is that you don’t have to shoot many. If you are clearly going to look the other way, you will have nothing BUT looters.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/1/2020 @ 9:49 am

    You’re calling for summary execution in response to a systemic property crime, do you you also call for the summary execution of Police officers that improperly murder people in their custody? Or is that the point where you talk about the process, the rights of the accused and the challenging extenuating circumstances?

    Time123 (c9382b)

  36. That’s the new attack Trump angle? He says Antifa are “Domestic Terrorists” but only foreingers can be “Terrorists”? Okey dokey. So, did any of these legal twitter geniuses contact AG Barr for the CORRECT label?

    Of course not. Because Orange man is ALWAYS Bad, and the whole point of EVERY news story and comment is to show Trump in a bad light. So, assuming the CORRECT LABEL is “violent extremist group” I’m sure the DoJ can go after Antifa. Or is this a bad thing, according to the Anti-Trump Libertarians?

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  37. Trump’s military bears as much resemblance to Eisenhower’s military as Trump’s voters bear to Eisenhower’s voters.

    nk (1d9030)

  38. This quibbling over ‘domestic terrorism’ reminds me of the endless quibbling over Trump’s claim that he was “wiretapped” in May 2017. Then all the Never trumpers played dumb and stated that TRump was lying because his phone didn’t have any wires. haha.

    Now they’re pretending Terrorists can only be foreigners because there can only be ONE meaning of the word. Their meaning.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  39. No, NOT shooting looters on sight has been the rule for some time. Some Supreme Court case out of Kentucky or Tennessee or such similar place. They have to present a threat of death or great bodily harm to innocent people, or committing a violent felony and it’s necessary to shoot them to get them to stop committing it.

    nk (1d9030)

  40. Here is AG Barr’s statement:

    Federal law enforcement actions will be directed at apprehending and charging the violent radical agitators who have hijacked peaceful protest and are engaged in violations of federal law.

    To identify criminal organizers and instigators, and to coordinate federal resources with our state and local partners, federal law enforcement is using our existing network of 56 regional FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces (JTTF).

    The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly.”

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  41. Guess the AG of the United States of America disagrees with some obscure leftist on Twitter. Wonder who the Never trumpers will believe.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  42. 24. The whole Little Rock school controversy in 1957 was ginned up in order to enable the corrupt Orval Faubus to win a third 2-year term. It had been traditional for a new Governor to get one free pass and then not run for re-election to a third term.

    Orval Faubus was taking money to tolerate illegal Las Vegas style casinos in Hot Springs. Arkansas. The political machine there was run by one of the principle founders of organized crime in America, Owen Vincent (Owney the Killer) Madden (1891-1965), who had “retired” there in about 1935. Bill Clinton’s step uncle, Raymond Clinton, was an important member of the political machine that ran Hot Springs, Arkansas (meetings were held at his Buick dealership, and Raymond Clinton had slot machines scattered all over town. This was all 100% illegal.)

    Once re-elected in 1958, Orval Faubus kept on being re-elected every two years until he was finally defeated by Winthrop Rockefeller on his second try in 1966. Bill Clinton (probably – his donors were both previously and later Clinton backers) had Orval Faubus brought back for a comeback attempt in 1984, so he could lose to him in the Democratic primary. Faubus probably didn’t understand what his role was in 1984.

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  43. Wow, after going along with Every Civil Liberties restriction during the “Lockdown” – no matter how much the freedom of Religion, Assembly, and speech was effected, the ACLU is now SUPER concerned that Barr is calling Antifa “domestic terrorists”. Gosh, ’cause that label can be abused.

    Looking forward to Goldberg, French, and Kristol siding with the ACLU. Because nothing says “Conservative” like Antifa.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  44. How many of the violent looters and rioters do you think were recently released by leftists politicians from jails due to the Wuhan Flu threat?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  45. Weird question…have recruits in any stage of basic training ever been called into use as riot forces in an adjacent polity?

    urbanleftbehind (1b072e)

  46. BTW, the sons and daughters of prominent Democrat politicians have all been arrested for acts of Domestic terrorism while having Antifa membership. Maybe that’s why everyone is so protective of them, even though they are organizing violence, looting and destruction.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  47. You’re calling for summary execution in response to a systemic property crime

    Shooting a criminal in the act is not the same thing. And you know it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. #44 – Given that thousands of violent criminals were released by Democrat Governors during the lockdown, I don’t doubt that many of them are “protesting” for fun and profit.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  49. 36. rcocean (2e1c02) — 6/1/2020 @ 9:59 am

    He says Antifa are “Domestic Terrorists” but only foreingers can be “Terrorists”?

    Only a non-U.S. based group can become an official “terrorist group”

    It makes sense that Congress would put in that precaution and limitation (can one man declare a group illegal? For safety’s sake you’d limit that power to foreign groups) and there may also have been a First amendment issue (freedom of association)

    Being designated as a “terrorist group” has certain legal consequences.

    “violent extremist group” probably has no legal meaning beyond the descriptive.

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  50. Rush Limbaugh states it well:

    In Minneapolis, you can’t reopen your own store, but someone else can loot it.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  51. #49 Thanks. Do you have an official cite I can look up?

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  52. Here’s something I just found:

    The deadly shooting in El Paso is being treated as a “domestic terrorism” case, prosecutors there said. And the FBI said it has opened a “domestic terrorism” investigation into the July shooting at the garlic festival in Gilroy, California.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  53. Weird question…have recruits in any stage of basic training ever been called into use as riot forces in an adjacent polity?

    Probably not since U.S. Senators commanded troops on the Kansas/Missouri border, urbanleftbehind. See e.g. The Outlaw Josey Wales. The first Posse Comitatus Act (see my 19 above) was passed in 1878 I think.

    nk (1d9030)

  54. How is domestic terrorism defined?

    The FBI defines domestic terrorism as acts “perpetrated by individuals and/or groups inspired by or associated with primarily U.S.-based movements that espouse extremist ideologies of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature.”

    The USA Patriot Act from 2001 defines domestic terrorism as a dangerous act occurring within U.S. territory that violates criminal laws in ways that are “intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.” That definition is also in the U.S. Government Code, the 53 title compilation of federal legal statutes.

    According to McCord, domestic terrorism was first defined in the federal code in 1992. Prior to that period, McCord is doubtful domestic terrorism was even a part the public consciousness or law enforcement radar. “I don’t think people back then were even using that verbiage. We didn’t even have internal terrorism at that time,” she said.

    How does “terrorism” differ from “domestic terrorism”?

    Acts of terrorism that “transcend national boundaries” are federal crimes. The U.S. Code of laws lists several violent crimes under the umbrella of terrorism that can be prosecuted if committed against persons within the U.S.

    In a 2008 speech to the Anti-Defamation League, Jonathan Solomon, special agent in charge of the FBI’s Miami, Florida division, explained this difference:

    “What makes domestic terrorism different is that domestic terrorists are based or operate solely in the U.S., and their acts target the U.S. government or U.S. citizens,” Solomon said. “They can be ‘right-wing’ or ‘left-wing’ extremists, such as white supremacists, anti-government militias, or anarchists. They can be ‘single-issue’ groups, such as animal rights or environmental rights extremists. And they can be ‘lone wolves’ with their own agendas. Think of Unabomber Ted Kaczynski.”

    Under the Patriot Act, the federal government has multiple resources to combat international terrorism. It has the authority to conduct surveillance of suspected terrorists, and can mount undercover sting operations an

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  55. IOW, all this nonsense about “There are no domestic terrorists” was just being used to attack Trump. AS USUAL!

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  56. There’s not some bearded left-wing Antifa nutjob in Germany or some other European state who is directing or collaborating with bearded left-wing Antifa nutjobs in America on how to conduct their operations. So, no, I’m buying that they’re “international” in that sense.

    Paul Montagu (466a99)

  57. No, NOT shooting looters on sight has been the rule for some time.

    *sigh*

    No wonder we have so many looters now. It’s like free stuff or something. It really is not a property crime, it’s insurrection. Which is a different thing entirely. I bet you that they aren’t even charged with a felony.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  58. Here’s the definition directly from the US Code:

    (5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
    (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

    (B) appear to be intended—
    (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

    (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

    (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

    (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States; and

    (6) the term “military force” does not include any person that—
    (A) has been designated as a—
    (i) foreign terrorist organization by the Secretary of State under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189); or

    (Added Pub. L. 102–572, title X, § 1003(a)(3), Oct. 29, 1992, 106 Stat. 4521; amended Pub. L. 107–56, title VIII, § 802(a), Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 376; Pub. L. 115–253, § 2(a), Oct. 3, 2018, 132 Stat. 3183.)

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  59. rcocean, please do not lie to us about what we see with our own eyes. There’s a big difference between labeling a crime domestic terrorism and labeling a domestic organization a terrorist organization.

    But since you asked for a label for Antifa, how about “Fifth Avenue Orange Poofter Boy Needs Deflection To Improve Chance Of Reelection Organization”?

    nk (1d9030)

  60. The media still calls these actions as “mostly peaceful.”

    Sigh.

    Hoi Polloi (7cefeb)

  61. So, no, I’m buying that they’re “international” in that sense.

    They ARE anarchists, so I’m guessing their organizing is ad hoc, at best. But their fundraising may be organized internationally.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  62. Again, nk, with the sure-fire slope of any argument to “It’s Trump’s fault.” The sun could go nova and it would be Trump’s fault somehow.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  63. Some things ARE Trump’s fault. But when everything is Trump’s fault, nothing is.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  64. Er, not buying.

    Paul Montagu (466a99)

  65. The media told us without a doubt that everything in the FusionGPS document was true and verified. That Trump was a foreign agent of Russia.

    And yet, they won’t even investigate whether Antifa has any foreign ties. Nope. Just assumes they are totally a domestic organization and receive no direction, money, or influence from outside the U.S.

    There has to be an Antifa Pee Tape out there somewhere…

    Hoi Polloi (7cefeb)

  66. It’s a way to go after their funding and makes sense. Find out who is pulling the strings behind their anarchy.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  67. And Xi smiles

    In a series of tweets and editorials over the weekend, Hu and his paper accused the US of hypocrisy.
    “Mr President, don’t go hide behind the secret service,” said Hu. “Go to talk to the demonstrators seriously. Negotiate with them, just like you urged Beijing to talk to Hong Kong rioters.”

    Paul Montagu (466a99)

  68. IOW, all this nonsense about “There are no domestic terrorists” was just being used to attack Trump. AS USUAL!

    ocean, I can’t tell if you’re being wittingly or unwittingly obtuse. These are Trump’s words:

    The United States of America will be designating ANTIFA as a Terrorist Organization.

    Emphasis mine. No one is saying that there are no domestic terrorists, except you with your stupid strawman argument. The problem is that Trump cannot classify Antifa as a “terrorist organization” because there is no way under law for him to do so. This doesn’t preclude that an untold number of Antifa are domestic terrorists, just like the Planned Parenthood shooter is a domestic terrorist, just like the El Paso shooter is a domestic terrorist, just like the Congressional baseball shooter is a domestic terrorist.

    Paul Montagu (466a99)

  69. 36: the whole point of EVERY news story and comment is to show Trump in a bad light.

    I doubt that the public concern about a pandemic and a rash of riots arises exclusively from a desire to say something bad about Trump.

    But some people do seem to be worried first and most that the current newsworthy events might hurt Trump.

    Radegunda (89f220)

  70. But their fundraising may be organized internationally.

    I would be skeptical of that. What they do does not necessarily need much money to carry out, and what expenses there are would probably be personal. Everyone buys his own blunt weapon and gets to the designated place of rioting as individuals. Organizing is done online. And probably the profits of looting are enough to cover that.

    Since they’re domestic they don’t need international travel or fake passports. And they don’t seem to go in for IEDs or anything like that. They probably use fake IDs, however.

    I would assume whatever funding they do is via cryptocurrency.

    Kishnevi (96e42d)

  71. Again, nk, with the sure-fire slope of any argument to “It’s Trump’s fault.”

    Everything Barr does he does for Trump. There’s songs about it.

    nk (1d9030)

  72. What is that “old” song about a Bonnie and Clyde kind of couple with the chorus: “Do you love me? Say you do. Because everything I do, baby, I do for you.”

    nk (1d9030)

  73. the whole point of EVERY news story and comment is to show Trump in a bad light.

    Doesn’t seem like they have to work to hard to “show” Trump in a bad light. From what I see, he does all the heavy lifting himself. Maybe he should stop giving them so much to work with.

    Dana (0feb77)

  74. RCocean, As usual you’re very worked up because people are mocking and criticizing Donald Trump for saying something that makes him look clueless. Also as usual you’re off target in your anger.

    There’s a difference between designating an organization ‘a terrorist organization’ and referring to an act as terrorism. I’ve linked wikipedia for you. To make your life even easier I’ve pasted the impact of officially declaring an organization “A Terrorist Organization below.

    It is unlawful for a person in the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to knowingly provide “material support or resources” to a designated FTO.[2] (The term “material support or resources” is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b) as “currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel, transportation, and other physical assets, except medicine or religious materials.”)
    Representatives and members of a designated FTO, if they are aliens, are inadmissible to and, in certain circumstances, removable from the United States (see 8 U.S.C. §§ 1182 (a)(3)(B)(i)(IV)-(V), 1227 (a)(1)(A)).
    Any U.S. financial institution that becomes aware that it has possession of or control over funds in which a designated FTO or its agent has an interest must retain possession of or control over the funds and report the funds to the Office of Foreign Assets Control of the U.S. Department of the Treasury.[4]

    Next time, before you start ranting that everyone is just picking on the Clown in Chief for being wrong you should try to understand what they’re actually talking about.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  75. It’s a way to go after their funding and makes sense. Find out who is pulling the strings behind their anarchy.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 6/1/2020 @ 10:37 am

    Did Trump just realize that Antifa is a sack full of problems? They’ve been violent jack@$$ for years. Is the DOJ just now investigating them?

    Time123 (b87ded)

  76. Peace be with you, too, Patterico.

    felipe (023cc9)

  77. Is this Trump’s fault? No.
    Is he helping? No.
    Is he making it worse? Kinda yeah.
    Conclusion? Maybe he should stop that.

    (He can’t. He can’t help himself and he’s a coward and is scared of the mean people yelling at him in the distance so he says mean things back on twitter and goes to hide in his reinforced concrete bunker so that he feels safer.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  78. They’ve been violent jack@$$ for years. Is the DOJ just now investigating them?

    I think they’ve been investigating them all along, but they just figured out Flynn and Page weren’t Antifa.

    beer ‘n pretzels (3a6a1d)

  79. You’re calling for summary execution in response to a systemic property crime

    Shooting a criminal in the act is not the same thing. And you know it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/1/2020 @ 10:13 am

    I didn’t think that was what you meant. I thought you meant that when the police arrive on the scene they should start shooting people in order to discourage looting.

    How about you lay out exactly what you do mean?

    Time123 (c9382b)

  80. @78 It’s amazing that after three years of being president you don’t think Trump should have accomplished anything beyond tough tweets and appointing judges from the federalist society.

    Time123 (c9382b)

  81. In order for something to be an organization, it has to be organized. Antifa isn’t an organization any more than rescuing shelter animals or growing pumpkins is an organization.

    JRH (52aed3)

  82. Urban centers and thousands of innocent people are now paying the price for the lies being told that there is systemic racism permeating all of American society.

    People of all races have been victims of bad police. This excuse for this rioting distracts from the fact that in a state with a Dem governor, in a city with a Dem mayor and Dem city council, police misconduct has been swept under the rug for years.

    Now Dems and the media (is there a difference?) are actually excusing huge outdoor gatherings just a couple weeks after declaring people protesting excessive lockdown policies (or just wishing to go to a beach or attend church) as irresponsible and a ‘death cult’.

    Maybe if the Dems in Minneapolis had worked harder for police victims past, there wouldn’t be riots and looting in the name of George Floyd today.

    And right on time ANTIFA and it’s band of destructive clowns are capitalizing on the smears and false memes and goading people into destroying their own communities in hopes of anarchy finally making enough of the masses believe revolution is the answer.

    And yes I’m just as disappointed by Trump’s nonsensical and tepid response as anyone. BUT I’m also even more incensed that Barack Obama is not being blamed for the discord between the races he helped perpetuate for eight years.

    And now it’s all being shifted as somehow the fault of Trump and white nationalists, completely ignoring the Democratic/Liberal Frankensteins who created this monster.

    This could get really bad. If you think it already is you aren’t aware of what a media that is 90% on one side is capable of.

    harkin (9c4571)

  83. We nevertrumps have to take this pearl of wisdom from the President to heart:

    You have to dominate, if you don’t dominate you’re wasting your time. They’re going to run over you, you’re going to look like a bunch of jerks. You have to dominate.”

    So you Haikus and narcisos at harkins and oceans better watch out. I will dominateyou.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  84. Remember, the most successful ‘anti-fascist’ of all time was Josef Stalin, and he killed four times as many of his own countrymen as he did Nazis.

    harkin (9c4571)

  85. “ I will dominateyou”

    Whether Muslim, Communist or Anarchist, the same chirp.

    I prefer freedom.
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  86. And look out America. Trump has gone to the fire alarm and broken the glass…

    “We will activate Bill Barr and activate him very strongly,”

    Appalled (1a17de)

  87. Harkin,
    Black people seem to think that they’re disproportionately impacted the police abuses that you cite, and that the system as it stands fails to consistently bring them justice.

    You can blame it on the media or Obama and claim that black people are being duped. But that seems to be what they genuinely believe.

    Time123 (c9382b)

  88. 87

    Harkin — FYI, I was quoting Trump. As I am here:

    You’ve got to arrest people, you have to track people, you have to put them in jail for 10 years and you’ll never see this stuff again”

    The way this guy talks, you’d think this was President Obama while launching Obamagate.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  89. In order for something to be an organization, it has to be organized. Antifa isn’t an organization any more than rescuing shelter animals or growing pumpkins is an organization.

    You should tell us more about the investigation into Antifa you undertook and how you obtained evidence to support your conclusion.

    Hoi Polloi (7cefeb)

  90. @87: Black people…

    If you’re not sure whether or not there’s racially disproportionate police abuses, I guess you ain’t black.

    beer ‘n pretzels (db18ad)

  91. Were those the flames of the Holy Spirit descending on St. John’s church in DC? Pentecost was Sunday.

    Hoi Polloi (7cefeb)

  92. Sean Spicier
    @sean_spicier

    We can end this if we can somehow convince the democrat mayors & governors that the rioters were also spotted playing catch with their kids in the park
    __ _

    nittibang
    @nittibang
    ·
    Meanwhile the parks in my local city are still roped off. Can’t let kids play gotta convince them to riot too!!
    __ _

    harkin (9c4571)

  93. “Black people seem to think that they’re disproportionately impacted the police abuses that you cite, and that the system as it stands fails to consistently bring them justice.

    You can blame it on the media or Obama and claim that black people are being duped. But that seems to be what they genuinely believe.”
    _

    I have no doubt they believe it, they’ve been fed this tripe for decades. For some reason though while they embrace the smear of systemic racism, they also ignore the very real black crime rate:

    The FBI released its official crime tally for 2016 today, and the data flies in the face of the rhetoric that professional athletes rehearsed in revived Black Lives Matter protests over the weekend. Nearly 900 additional blacks were killed in 2016 compared with 2015, bringing the black homicide-victim total to 7,881.

    Those 7,881 “black bodies,” in the parlance of Ta-Nehisi Coates, are 1,305 more than the number of white victims (which in this case includes most Hispanics) for the same period, though blacks are only 13 percent of the nation’s population. The increase in black homicide deaths last year comes on top of a previous 900-victim increase between 2014 and 2015.

    Who is killing these black victims? Not whites, and not the police, but other blacks. In 2016, the police fatally shot 233 blacks, the vast majority armed and dangerous, according to the Washington Post. The Post categorized only 16 black male victims of police shootings as “unarmed.” That classification masks assaults against officers and violent resistance to arrest. Contrary to the Black Lives Matter narrative, the police have much more to fear from black males than black males have to fear from the police.In 2015, a police officer was 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male was to be killed by a police officer.

    Black males have made up 42 percent of all cop-killers over the last decade, though they are only 6 percent of the population. That 18.5 ratio undoubtedly worsened in 2016, in light of the 53 percent increase in gun murders of officers—committed vastly and disproportionately by black males. Among all homicide suspects whose race was known, white killers of blacks numbered only 243.”

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/hard-data-hollow-protests-15458.html
    _

    You won’t see any of this in the media but you could help pass it along if you truly believe facts are needed before you can even hope to solve a problem.
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  94. If that didn’t sink in, when men like George Floyd are killed by police whether through bad training or malice, they should expect justice.

    Since Minneapolis has systemic injustice towards police victims, instead of holding incompetent democratic politicians and police chiefs responsible they misdirect their anger and frustration towards their own communities and the innocent people the failed scholarship of BLM has told them is the real enemy.

    This is by design and anybody ignoring, or worse, promoting the riots as justifiable are part of the problem. They are actually helping destroy the community they profess to care about.
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  95. Harkin, those are legitimate facts. It’s strange that you think black people living in black neighborhoods don’t know it already. Part of the problem is that the choices are ineffective law enforcement, brutal and racist law enforcement, or both of the above.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  96. Just saw 94, They don’t expect justice because they often don’t get justice. I know you don’t want to admit it, but that’s what it is.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  97. It’s irrational to riot over a couple dozen (if it’s that many) blacks wrongfully killed by police every year, while ignoring the hundredfold greater death toll inflicted by other blacks.

    Unfortunately, rioters aren’t known for their rationality.

    Dave (1bb933)

  98. “Since Minneapolis has systemic injustice towards police victims, instead of holding incompetent democratic politicians and police chiefs responsible they misdirect their anger and frustration towards their own communities and the innocent people the failed scholarship of BLM has told them is the real enemy.”

    My dental office in the Linden Hills neighborhood of southwest Minneapolis is boarding up their windows this afternoon. We are a long way from the protests, so let’s be clear about what’s going on here. We don’t have a protest problem. We have a policing problem. A thread: 1/
    Minneapolis police do NOT appear to be under the command or control, of our mayor or our excellent police chief. So it seems like a lot of cops have apparently decided to stop doing their jobs until their notorious union chief, Bob Kroll, tells them to go back to work. 2/
    Ever since George Floyd was murdered, the police response to peaceful protests has been to:
    1) wildly escalate the situation with tear gas and rubber bullets;
    2) watch as looters—a very different group than the protesters- move in;
    3) Vanish and let the chaos reigns. 3/
    Their strategy seems to be: “Either we get to kill Black men when we feel like it with no criticism from you people……..or you don’t get any law enforcement it all. Nice little city you got there, pity if something happens to it? Do you miss us yet?” 4/
    For context, the Minneapolis police force is overwhelmingly white and male. Ninety-two percent of them live in the suburbs–often the far suburbs. Their union chief, Bob Kroll, is a huge Trump supporter and open white supremacist. 5/
    In short, a big subset of our police department looks (and acts) like they were recruited directly from a Trump rally. They literally seem to hate this progressive city and most of our residents. And they especially hate Black people. 6/
    We all live in our own little bubble. The police have been killing unarmed Black men in Minneapolis for years and getting away with it Their first account of George Floyd’s death was to announce that he had a “medical” issue while being arrested and alas, died. 7/
    The police didn’t mention the whole knee-on-neck thingy. So they seemed caught off-guard by the cell-phone video and then the public response to it. They were furious that the four officers involved with killing George Floyd were immediately fired because this rarely happens. 8/
    The police were furious that they were being directly criticized by the mayor and governor (both Democrats), which rarely happens. They’ve been furious at the protests. So the cops have sort of gone on strike here. 9/
    With the police openly refusing to do their jobs, they have basically invited the criminals to break into anything they want. It’s a very cynical move to change the discussion away from police misconduct to the need for cops to come in and break heads and have law and order. 10/
    Hence, lots of businesses are putting up plywood. What else are they supposed to do? The Minneapolis police have basically invited criminals to “have at us.”

    It’s really bad and a little scary. We’re being policed by a force with cold contempt for the city and its people. 11/
    The arrest of the Derek Chauvin, the cop who kneeled on George Floyd’s neck, is a good first step. But it’s only a baby step. We need to fire a lot of police officers in order to create a policing model that actually works to protect the city residents. 12/
    Creating a truly effective and very different police force will be a long, hard slog of a task. Our local politicians are going to need a lot of support and wind at their sails if they attempt it. Let’s begin. End/

    https://twitter.com/lynnellmick/status/1266489791018721280

    Davethulhu (55869f)

  99. I don’t think of Antifa as a domestic terrorist organization. They’re an amorphous group with no real leadership, and they don’t even hold meetings. They have organized some protests that became violent in the past, but I doubt they’re capable of directing these vandalism, arsons and looting sprees. As a group, they’re too small in number to exert that kind of influence. Besides, most of the vandals, arsonists and looters probably don’t even know or care about Antifa.

    No, the criminals committing these acts are more like street gangs. They’re mostly young people, 18-30, taking advantage of a chaotic environment to steal what they want, using fire to destroy evidence and vandalism to disguise their motives.

    This weekend was particularly brutal, and it appears to have been timed and coordinated. With the phase 1 reopening, scheduled for today, they must have known stores and businesses would have been restocked.

    High end stores in Santa Monica, Soho, and elsewhere, but also retail stores like Target and Home Depot, small businesses and restaurants were left in ruin across the country. There’s nothing political about that. It’s just plain thievery.

    The attacks that were overtly political, such as those against municipal buildings and historical monuments may have been organized by groups like Antifa, remnants of Occupy Wall Street, and the like, other amorphous anarchist groups. Attacks on police stations and cars, assaults on officers, are acts of rage, promulgated by Black Lives Matter.

    All these combined represent a complete breakdown of the rule of law.

    https://www.city-journal.org/terrifying-collapse-of-the-rule-of-law

    The government at all levels needs to get real serious real quick, because this simply cannot continue.

    Peaceful protesters should be required to get permits to march or assemble in certain areas. We can’t have thousands of people crowding the Brooklyn bridge, shutting down traffic. Strict curfews need to imposed nationwide and stringently enforced. The National Guard needs to secure government and municipal buildings, freeing the police to patrol the streets. A hard crackdown is necessary, and violators dealt with harshly.

    The economic damage caused by these outbursts will be severe, making any hope of a recovery or a return to any sense of normalcy years away. This anarchy has go to stop. Now.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  100. 98. If you take the less charitable view of these tweets, It’s also worth noting and bears repeating that Minnesota has been a solidly Democrat stronghold (in the form of DFL state politicians who go on to caucus with the federal Dems) since at least 1944 with the merger of the state Dems with the nigh-socialist Farmer-Labor party. I don’t think you can divorce the current chaos from the state’s overall political climate.

    Gryph (08c844)

  101. I don’t think of Antifa as a domestic terrorist organization. They’re an amorphous group with no real leadership, and they don’t even hold meetings. They have organized some protests that became violent in the past, but I doubt they’re capable of directing these vandalism, arsons and looting sprees.

    LOL! This is the funniest thing I’ve ever read. Yeah, they’re not an organization, they don’t hold public meetings, have conventions or even do charity Drives! When I think of organizations, I think of the Shriners or the Girl Scouts. When does Antifa ever have a cookie drive? And sure “violence breaks out” whenever they show up in masks and carrying clubs but hey, its not like they’re violent or nuthin’

    rcocean (846d30)

  102. Davethulhu (55869f) — 6/1/2020 @ 1:01 pm

    The obvious response to that is, why did the Democrats in charge do nothing before this, if the police were that bad?

    Kishnevi (e4a4c9)

  103. 101. I think Antifa uses the Earth Liberation Front as their model for raising a ruckus. The whole point of the disorganization and dearth of leadership is to provide those that do get caught with plausible deniability.

    Gryph (08c844)

  104. 102. The Dems hold the people in contempt just as much or worse than the municipal police officers do. That’s the ugly elephant in the room.

    Gryph (08c844)

  105. When I think of domestic terrorists I think of the 21st century KKK. Remember when they did..uh that thing? Or rioted and destroyed that city…y’know the one. Or desecrated that national monument or famous church, y’know that one in some city somewhere. And now the KKK is infiltrating Antifa, who just want to sell Girl Scout cookies, and have turned them to violence.

    End result, they’ve given Antifa a bad name. That’s what the KKK is up to. Now that’s domestic terror.

    rcocean (846d30)

  106. 105. You forgot your sarcasm tag, RC.

    Gryph (08c844)

  107. A couple of Federal cops were assassinated in Oakland a couple nights ago, during a “Protest”. Does any one know their names? Its hard to find. Unlike Mr. Floyd. Lots of people injured, lots of property destroyed, lots of people’s lives changed for the worse.

    But to some that’s just Antifa raising a “ruckus”. Just some crazy kids, trying to change the world and speak truth to power. Good thing the Hollywood millionaires are paying their bail money and providing them support. That’s what SOME Think. Not me.

    rcocean (846d30)

  108. Guess the AG of the United States of America disagrees with some obscure leftist on Twitter. Wonder who the Never trumpers will believe.

    You do not understand the distinction even though I explained it in the post.

    People can commit *acts* on domestic soil that are terrorist acts under the law.

    You can’t label a domestic group a “terrorist organization.”

    Those are two different concepts, rcocean.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  109. Who is killing these black victims? Not whites, and not the police, but other blacks

    As George Floyd well knew.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936

    A video of Floyd decrying gun violence, believed to be filmed in 2017, has circulated on social media, in which he implored young people to “come home”.

    I’ve seen a frame of that video (without sound) on TV but am not able to find this video.

    It wasn’t violence by the police he was decrying. It was violence by people who were not the police.

    He was an ex-drug addict (starting probably sometime during his college years which possibly put an end to his athletic career) with a criminal record for theft and drug possession and finally armed robbery (in 2007) and the BBC says he was sentenced to five years in prison.

    It doesn’t say how much time he spent in jail but does indicate that some time after he got out, he found religion.

    He moved to Minneapolis in 2018, with the help of that religious group, to make a fresh start, where he became a part time security guard as well as a dance club bouncer and a truck driver.

    Only to fall off the wagon (alcohol and cigarettes) and, while drunk, try to pass a very poor quality counterfeit $20 bill (that he had received as a tip or as payment for something?) to pay for some cigarettes, and, a little after leaving the store, when the clerk followed him out, refuse to give back the cigarettes.

    And he wound up in the hands of some very bad policemen, one of whom, because he was squirming, even though handcuffed, and maybe annoying him by complaining loudly about his arrest, (or was he threatening to file a complaint against him?) decided to take him out of the police car and render him unconscious, or maybe worse, even to kill him. In front of witnesses and cell phone and other cameras.

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  110. It’s understandable that non-lawyers don’t understand some legal distinctions.

    But to be haughty about displaying that lack of understanding makes one look foolish.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  111. Look, there is no way Antifa could have coordinated the level of carnage seen over the weekend. They simply don’t have the influence. Trump is casting them as the boogeyman to distract attention away from his utter lack of leadership and abject failure to unify the country in a time crises, three actually–the pandemic, social unrest, and economic destruction.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  112. 102. Kishnevi (e4a4c9) — 6/1/2020 @ 1:23 pm

    The obvious response to that is, why did the Democrats in charge do nothing before this, if the police were that bad?

    The police union.

    https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/05/minneapolis-police-union-president-kroll-george-floyd-racism

    …The Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis union became powerful in the 1970s, after one of its former leaders, Charles Stenvig, was elected mayor. Kroll became president of the union in 2015. Today, protesters and other activists in the city say the union, not the police chief, holds the most sway over officers and their behavior on patrol. “The only authority they respect is Police Federation President Bob Kroll,” Tana Hargest, a Minneapolis-based artist and activist, tweeted a day after Floyd’s death. “[T]here’s nothing our elected representatives can or will do to bring them to heel.”

    Through a series of controversies over the years, Kroll has been a staunch defender of the police. In 2015, after two white officers shot 24-year-old Jamar Clark in the head, Kroll spoke on television about Clark’s “violent” criminal history; later, when the officers were cleared of wrongdoing, he referred to Black Lives Matter as a “terrorist organization,” according to the Minneapolis Star Tribune.

    In 2007, Kroll also referred to former US Rep. Keith Ellison, who is Muslim and Black and has pushed for criminal justice reforms, as a terrorist, according to a lawsuit filed by now–Police Chief Medaria Arradondo alleging racism within the police department. The lawsuit accused Kroll of wearing a motorcycle jacket with a white-power patch sewed into the fabric, and said he had “a history of discriminatory attitudes and conduct.” He has told reporters he was part of the City Heat motorcycle club, some of whose members have been described by the Anti-Defamation League as displaying white supremacist symbols. Kroll did not respond to a request for comment but has denied the allegations in the past…

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  113. It’s understandable that non-lawyers don’t understand some legal distinctions.
    But to be haughty about displaying that lack of understanding makes one look foolish.

    Much of this doesn’t take Law School, it takes 30 seconds of Googling. Or just reading the whole post.

    Of course, when a Trumplican twitter bot tells you the sun is cold and the sky is made of whiskey, why bother to question, they have told you the answer.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  114. When I think of domestic terrorists I think of the 21st century KKK. Remember when they did..uh that thing? Or rioted and destroyed that city…y’know the one. Or desecrated that national monument or famous church, y’know that one in some city somewhere. And now the KKK is infiltrating Antifa, who just want to sell Girl Scout cookies, and have turned them to violence.

    End result, they’ve given Antifa a bad name. That’s what the KKK is up to. Now that’s domestic terror.

    rcocean (846d30) — 6/1/2020 @ 1:25 pm

    105. You forgot your sarcasm tag, RC.

    Gryph (08c844) — 6/1/2020 @ 1:26 pm

    I don’t think he was being sarcastic, I think he legitimately sympathizes with the POV of the KKK.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  115. It’s understandable that non-lawyers don’t understand some legal distinctions.

    But to be haughty about displaying that lack of understanding makes one look foolish.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 6/1/2020 @ 1:38 pm

    Patterico, in RCoceran’s defense your post didn’t really explain what it meant to be officially designated as a terrorist organization and why doing that to a domestic group would violate peoples rights to free association.

    If you were intending a broad audience that might be a significant miss. If you were anticipating a certain level of familiarity with the subject than not to much. FWIW I wasn’t sure what the difference was and had to look it up before I commented.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  116. This riot has gotten out of hand, it’s by far the worst in the history of the country. All the death, all the destruction. It’s just shameful.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  117. “In Space, No One Can Hear You Scream.” – ‘Alien’ 1979

    ‘This movie gives a whole, new meaning to “in your face” !’

    — Colonel Haiku “Alien” review

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  118. This.

    Dana (0feb77)

  119. 114… keep the generosity level on the down low… k?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  120. But to be haughty about displaying that lack of understanding makes one look foolish.

    But it’s what Trump would do!

    Dave (1bb933)

  121. Forgive others their sins as you would have them forgive yours.

    Peace be with you.

    So does this mean people who have been banned will again be able to comment again or have I confused international forgiveness with domestic forgiveness?

    And also with you.

    PTw (451820)

  122. The Tulsa riot haopeed during a period of time that lasted from 1898 to 1921 when white supremacists , who had succeeded in imposing Jim Crow, worried that it could be reversed because it was unconstitutional, and decided that whole African American communities might have to be eliminated in order to preserve it. It stopped because of the 1920 Census.

    Southern representatives were able to prevent a reapportionment (it helped that the number of seats had been frozen at 435 with the 1911 apportionment – till then the number of seats had been increased ever tn years so that no state would lose representatives) but the more moderate and business people knew that reapportionment could not e stopped forever, amd were afraid of where the violence could go.

    While they put all of those pogroms into the memory hole, they did successfully undermine the KKK and other signs of Southern revivalism – among other things, destroying the attempt to sculpture a mountain in Georgia with the heads of Confederate military leaders, eventually diverting the architect into building Mount Rushmore in South Dakota. (The Geergia project was re-started and completed in the 1960s.)

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  123. No justice No peace. Demographics have changed. The battle is joined.

    asset (33313b)

  124. Homeland Security says the government does not designate domestic terrorist organizations but does identify domestic terrorist threats. The FBI investigates domestic terrorism, or criminal violent acts by groups with domestic influences. Both international and domestic terrorist acts are covered by 18 USC 2331 et seq.

    DRJ (15874d)

  125. So you Haikus and narcisos at harkins and oceans better watch out. I will dominateyou.

    I opt out. 335 lbs, stiletto heels, fishnet stockings, an 8th grader’s mustache and a lisp doesn’t sound like much fun.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  126. 114. Yeah, that thought had crossed my mind. I tried throwing in a smidgeon of irony with my accusation of sarcasm, but that doesn’t always come across really well in the written word.

    Gryph (08c844)

  127. Now they are going to try a citywide curfew at 11 pm. Yesterday, protest or demonstrations were mostly peacefull during the day, then the criminal activity stated at night. (sunset is at about 8;20 pm)

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  128. Dana (0feb77) — 6/1/2020 @ 2:08 pm

    I guess they arrested him for disorderly conduct?

    Dave (1bb933)

  129. I am not sure what designating a domestic organization as a terrorist group means or does, but the ACLU wrote some time ago that designating a crime as domestic terrorism opens the door to expanded investigatory powers including seizure of assets, educational records, taxpayer information, and this:

    Single-Jurisdiction Search Warrants (Sec. 219): This section of the USA PATRIOT Act amends Rule 41(a) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure to authorize the government to go before a singe Federal magistrate judge in any judicial district in which activities relating to the terrorism may have occurred, to obtain a warrant to search property or a person within or outside the district. This means that the government could go to a single judge to get a warrant to search the property or person of the Vieques activists in New York, Chicago, California, or wherever else the protesters were from. If the government chose to go before a magistrate in New York, a person in California, who wished to seek to have the warrant quashed because he or she believed it was invalid, would have to find a way to appear before the New York court that issued the warrant. This would be a daunting task for most.

    DRJ (15874d)

  130. Round them up and knock ‘me down…

    https://twitter.com/AdamMilstein/status/1267237725209411584

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  131. Autocorrect!

    ’em

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  132. “Round them up and knock ‘me down…

    https://twitter.com/AdamMilstein/status/1267237725209411584

    I’ve got a bridge you might be interested in buying.

    Davethulhu (55869f)

  133. https://www.foxnews.com/us/results-of-george-floyd-independent-autopsy-expected-today (results were released. Death caused by asphyxia from sustained pressure.)

    George Floyd’s brother Terence has made some kind of appeal to looters and arsonists etc that none of what they’re doing is going to bring his brother back – and they should simply vote.

    But if he thinks they are trying to help anybody but themselves and/or the cause of robbery, he’s naive.

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  134. No justice No peace. Demographics have changed. The battle is joined.

    Sounds quite cryptic. What would changing demographics have to do with the decision to engage or not engage in this “battle”? And what battle, exactly? What constitutes a “win” or “loss”?

    Paul Montagu (c5b2c2)

  135. But if he thinks they are trying to help anybody but themselves and/or the cause of robbery, he’s naive.

    He probably won’t sway many people who are taking advantage of a protest for their own purposes, though there’s a chance his words might prompt a bit of shame in a few.

    The statement does serve the purpose of drawing distinctions for the wider public that’s watching it all.

    Radegunda (89f220)

  136. The reason why looters have historically been treated more harshly than normal burglars is that the losses that businesses incur are not insurable. As we will see, mom & pop merchants are usually wiped out. Sure corporations can self-insure, but that corner dress shop just lost everything. Destroying peoples lives and trashing their life’s work are NOT harmless property crimes and should be treated harshly. I really don’t understand people who think it’s just acting out.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  137. @123 That sounds an awful lot like you are advocating for a race war. Are you advocating for a race war?

    Nic (896fdf)

  138. I watched a video where a black man who identified himself as being age 31 had an impassioned exchange with a somewhat older black man, basically imploring the older man to stay away from violence because it did nothing for the cause, etc.
    Then he addressed himself to a teenager, and what struck me was how intently the teenager listened to him, nodding now and then. The teenager appeared to be thinking: “This guy may be really worked up, but he’s probably wiser than me, and he seems really serious about this, so I’d better listen.”

    Some other young people might be getting the message that looting and mayhem are all part of the “justice” agenda. But if someone with a claim to their respect says otherwise, it might have an effect on some of them.

    Radegunda (89f220)

  139. Governor Abbott declared a state of disaster for Texas and called up the National Guard, after protests turned violent in Austin, Houston and Dallas, along with reports of sporadic vandalism and looting in all three.

    So I went on a short whiskey and beer run, because I believe in the Morrison Creed–“I’m gonna get my kicks before the whole sh!thouse goes up in flames!” I’m driving along University on my way to the liquor store, and there was a man walking down the sidewalk, wearing camouflage fatigues with a large American flag on the shoulder and military boots, carrying an AR-15, like he was on patrol.

    I told the guys at the store about him, and they said they had already called the police. Well, the police came, talked to the guy, then let him go. Maybe the gun wasn’t loaded, and he was just carrying it for show. Or perhaps he’s in the National Guard, I don’t know. But that’s not something you see down here very often. In fact, I’ve never seen anything like it in my life.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)


  140. Kamala Harris
    @KamalaHarris

    If you’re able to, chip in now to the @MNFreedomFund to help post bail for those protesting on the ground in Minnesota.
    __ _

    Stephen L. Miller
    @redsteeze

    Dems could be asking for funds to rebuild businesses destroyed. Instead, they are asking for funds to bail out the people who set the fires.
    __ _

    GSeven
    @GsevengOne
    ·
    You’re assuming they want the businesses to recover.
    __ _

    TheRightWingM Flag of United States
    @TheRightWingM
    ·
    She’s not even linking to the Minnesota Bail Out Fund. Kamala is linking to Act Blue & that funds Democratic Candidates & whatever organizations & non-profits they choose.
    _

    harkin (8cfa8b)

  141. “I told the guys at the store about him, and they said they had already called the police. Well, the police came, talked to the guy, then let him go. Maybe the gun wasn’t loaded, and he was just carrying it for show. Or perhaps he’s in the National Guard, I don’t know. But that’s not something you see down here very often. In fact, I’ve never seen anything like it in my life.“

    Just a few weeks ago people with guns peaceably assembled to protest and broke no laws, destroyed no property and harmed no people.

    The Dems and the media called them terrorists.
    _

    harkin (8cfa8b)

  142. “ Some other young people might be getting the message that looting and mayhem are all part of the “justice” agenda. But if someone with a claim to their respect says otherwise, it might have an effect on some of them.”
    _

    One of the main reasons for the pathologies in the community is a lack of older males to set boundaries on behavior.

    These are known as ‘fathers’.
    _

    harkin (8cfa8b)

  143. The way to find peace among these divisons is to ostentatiously ask the question: “Does the urban blue voter deserve responsibility for everything their Democrat candidates do?”

    The answer is yes. I feel bad for out-of-staters and passers-by caught up in these riots. I feel little to nothing for those urban provincial hicks who chose to vote in their big-city and big business party machines in perpetuity, hoping that their hordes of cheap labor enforcers would eat them last. It’s like feeling bad for the Saudis when their various terrorists start fouling their own nests.

    We may maintain diplomatic relations, but ultimately, riots in major cities are disturbances to be contained, not emergencies requiring expensive NATION-BUILDING measures. Ever since 1968, the left has been running the ‘riot’ playbook in their own cities hoping for an overreaction as surely as al-Sadr. No need to keep sinking millions of middle class tax dollars into rebuilding places they’ll willingly let others burn down for the insurance money again.

    Meth&Fentinhim (7bfc00)

  144. “I will deploy the United States military to swiftly solve the problem…” – President Donald J. Trump 6/1/20

    Hey! Hey! Trump, Donald J.: how many kids have you killed today?!?!
    Hey! Hey! Trump, Donald J.: how many kids have you killed today?!?!
    Hey! Hey! Trump, Donald J.: how many kids have you killed today?!?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  145. Stay calm, everyone. Dear Leader posed in front of a church, holding a Bible aloft and looking Very Serious. That’s gotta mean he’s doing the Lord’s work.

    Radegunda (89f220)

  146. Stay calm, everyone. Dear Leader posed in front of a church, holding a Bible aloft and looking Very Serious. That’s gotta mean he’s doing the Lord’s work.

    Should maybe you talk to the pastor at the church? Or is just walking by for a photo op all he wanted?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  147. “Just a few weeks ago people with guns peaceably assembled to protest and broke no laws, destroyed no property and harmed no people.”

    The first day of the protests were also peaceful, until the police fired tear gas and flashbangs. I wonder what the difference was.

    Davethulhu (55869f)

  148. Talked today to an African American man that lived in the Twin Cities not long ago. He spoke of one day when he got lost driving to a business in a northern suburb and was pulled over by the police. After checking into his story, the officer told him he could go, but not to come back to that neighborhood because “we don’t want your kind here”.

    I would guess that this isn’t as uncommon an occurrence as we think. Similar things happen to many minorities at least once. But when it is done by a cop, they feel totally helpless. This man wanted to complain to the officer’s boss but worried things would only get worse for him.

    As for the radicals who are itching for chaos… they would love for some Governor, Mayor or the President to overreact. Any bets on who might do that?

    noel (4d3313)

  149. Davethulhu (55869f) — 6/1/2020 @ 5:09 pm

    Did they have guns like the other people?

    felipe (023cc9)

  150. Apparently Barr had the police clear Lafayette Park of peaceful protestors with tear gas, so the Great Leader and his Bible could pass through it on the way to their photo-op:

    D.C. Police Use Tear Gas To Clear Protesters From Lafayette Park Moments Before Trump Speech

    George Will is right: with Trump, the worst can always get worse:

    Those who think our unhinged president’s recent mania about a murder two decades ago that never happened represents his moral nadir have missed the lesson of his life: There is no such thing as rock bottom. So, assume that the worst is yet to come. Which implicates national security: Abroad, anti-Americanism sleeps lightly when it sleeps at all, and it is wide-awake as decent people judge our nation’s health by the character of those to whom power is entrusted. Watching, too, are indecent people in Beijing and Moscow.

    Dave (1bb933)

  151. “Those who think our unhinged president’s recent mania about a murder two decades ago that never happened represents his moral nadir have missed the lesson of his life…” George Will

    That is right on, Dave. I know I will be lowering my expectations. Again.

    noel (4d3313)

  152. Trump walked over there for 1 minute and 53 seconds, and looked like an idiot. Spouted some nonsense, then left.

    Loser.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  153. Patterico, in RCoceran’s defense your post didn’t really explain what it meant to be officially designated as a terrorist organization and why doing that to a domestic group would violate peoples rights to free association.

    Well, in my defense the post made only a passing reference to it and was not designed to make the case. But, also in my defense, somehow I don’t think any level of proof, detail, argument, citations, or evidence would ever make rcocean say: gee, now that I have been presented with the arguments, I see Donald Trump’s tweet was nonsense!

    Do you? Really?

    Convincing people who are determined never to be convinced is a pastime I value just below that of repeatedly banging my head against a brick wall, and I decline to accept any responsibility for not doing it more thoroughly.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  154. Common sense and peace amongst the ignorance and mayhem:

    “ “[S]ometimes I get angry, I want to bust some heads, too,” Terrence Floyd told ABC News. “I wanna just go crazy. But I’m here. My brother wasn’t about that. My brother was about peace. You’ll hear a lot of people say he was a gentle giant.” …

    “Don’t tear up your town, all of this is not necessary because if his own family and blood is not doing it, then why are you?” said Terrence Floyd. “If his own family and blood are trying to deal with it and be positive about it, and go another route to seek justice, then why are you out here tearing up your community? Because when you’re finished and turn around and want to go buy something, you done tore it up. So now you messed up your own living arrangements.So just relax. Justice will be served.

    Floyd’s brother demands end to violence: “If his own family and blood is not doing it, then why are you?”

    https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morrissey/2020/06/01/floyd-brother-calls-peace-family-blood-not/
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  155. More on the White House’s terror attack against peaceful Lafayette Park demonstrators:

    Just after Mr. Trump concluded his speech, military police from the National Guard clad in camouflage and riot shields surged in front of a line of law enforcement officers pushing protesters back from the mouth of Lafayette Square outside the White House.

    Police used tear gas and flash grenades to clear out the crowd so Mr. Trump could visit the nearby St. John’s Church, where there was a parish house basement fire Sunday night. The president stood in front of the boarded up church posing for photographs with a bible, after the police dispersed peaceful protesters.

    Turning the military on Americans for the sake of a photo op.
    Excuse me while I throw up.

    Dave (1bb933)

  156. FFS.

    Dana (0feb77)

  157. Should maybe you talk to the pastor at the church? Or is just walking by for a photo op all he wanted?

    The Episcopal Diocese of DC was just on Anderson Cooper and she said that Trump profaned that Episcopal church by clearing out peaceful protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets, and then standing in front of the church, holding up the Holy Bible (that Trump does not read, neither opening it nor reading it) for a photo op.
    It’s something an anti-Christ would do, not a Christian.
    Earlier today, Trump said that governors were being “weak” because they wouldn’t “dominate” the situation. Well, today Trump showed that he is the weak man and the coward. Peter Nicholas is right. Trump is afraid of protests, which means that wherever Trump is, the masses should be right outside and peacefully protest against Trump’s “leadership” and see if he brings out the “vicious dogs” and “ominous weapons”.

    Paul Montagu (b03059)

  158. It’s a photo-op for the “law and order” president. I knew he would milk this for everything possible to rally his base, and get them excited for the election because he can’t do it in person at a rally. I wonder if Mr. Bible is aware of these words: Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction…

    Dana (0feb77)

  159. I look at what is going on in DC and wonder: suppose, back September 2009, as Obamacare was being voted on and the Tea Party march on DC was in progress, that the crowd of several hundred thousand had decided to attack the White House or the Capitol using firebombs and whathaveyou.

    The government would have mowed them down with machine guns and we’d be hearing to this day how they had no choice.

    Those on the right should remember what the DC authorities are allowing to happen, if not encouraging, at the White House. There3 should be water cannon, pepper spray, tear gas and batons. I don’t care what they are pretending to protest, this just cannot be.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  160. Well, I can see all the usual suspects are dancing like jackals as Trump comes under attack.

    This isn’t patriotism, but the opposite.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  161. This isn’t patriotism, but the opposite.

    Tell me, Kevin, what is patriotic about a guy who has his quasi-military personnel clear out an area of peaceful protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets so that he could stand in front of a church and hold up a Bible for a photo op.
    You’re right, what Trump did isn’t about patriotism, just the opposite.

    Paul Montagu (b03059)

  162. I look at what is going on in DC and wonder: suppose, back September 2009, as Obamacare was being voted on and the Tea Party march on DC was in progress, that the crowd of several hundred thousand had decided to attack the White House or the Capitol using firebombs and whathaveyou.

    The government would have mowed them down with machine guns and we’d be hearing to this day how they had no choice.

    That’s nice. It’s not a thing that happened. You made it up.

    Today happened in reality world, you watched it. You had to make up a thing that didn’t happen to somehow justify a thing that did.

    Suppose tiny alien space monkey’s came down and invaded Trump’s brain, controlling him from within to ensure the emancipation of all monkey’s on earth. Just as plausible.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  163. “Round them up and knock ‘me down…

    https://twitter.com/AdamMilstein/status/1267237725209411584

    Hey Haiku:

    NEWS: A Twitter account claiming to belong to a national “antifa” organization and pushing violent rhetoric related to ongoing protests has been linked to the white nationalist group Identity Evropa, according to a Twitter spokesperson.

    https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1267626627967725570

    Looks like the big brains at RedState were fooled as well, is that where you found it?

    Davethulhu (55869f)

  164. Alternative hidtory much, Kevin?

    In 2014 Obama’s administration held back from using force on Cliven Bundy because they knew the optics ere bad. And his group was acknowledged as a fringe group.

    Your speculative Tea Party riot would get roughly the same treatment as those protesters today.

    Kishnevi (01788b)

  165. Patriot!

    “I am your president of Law and Order and an ally of all peaceful protesters.”

    –Donald J. Trump, 6/1/2020

    Paul Montagu (b03059)

  166. I think it is helpful to explain why a domestic (terrorist) organization is treated different than an international (terrorist) organization under US law, and why law enforcement can target domestic crimes but is limited in targeting domestic organizations. The distinction may not matter to everyone but it will matter to some, and it is a protection for us all.

    DRJ (15874d)

  167. Not a Christian or a patriot.

    I remember being a kid in catechism classes before my First Communion. The nun who taught the class was talking about the commandments and what they mean. She asked what it meant to take the Lord’s name in vain. /1
    /2 I answered confidently “it means cursing.” She was patient. No, she said. It meant invoking God’s name not to glorify Him, but for selfish or evil purposes. It meant using God as an excuse for what you wanted to do.
    /3 I cannot conceive that any sane or honest person could look at this and think that it is done to glorify God or for His purposes.
    I suppose there is no commandment, yet, forbidding me to take Trump’s name in vain.

    Paul Montagu (b03059)

  168. Wow, I hadn’t heard about this photo-op. Did Trump even go inside? Did he view the burned children’s nursery? Did he attend service? I know he didn’t take confession. But did he at least volunteer to pay for the repairs and renovation?

    From what I’m reading, no. This isn’t his, the president’s, church. He’s a follower of prosperity gospel, and has his own quack spiritual adviser. He might have attended one sermon at St. John’s, just for show.

    But that’s not Christianity, standing in front of a burned church, holding an unread Bible. That’s blasphemy.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  169. Texas has had open carry of longarms for a long time. There were Black Panthers with AK-47s picketing prisons to protest executions decades ago.

    nk (1d9030)

  170. “Did they have guns like the other people?”

    Oddly enough, they did not. Unfortunately, neither do these people:

    Atlanta, GA: as with above, police and National Guard are blocking people from leaving, forcing them to stay out until after curfew so they can be arrested

    Several more videos in the thread

    https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1267645435705012224

    Davethulhu (55869f)

  171. “There were Black Panthers with AK-47s picketing prisons to protest executions decades ago.”

    Also in California. It was enough to make Ronald Reagan and the NRA push for gun control.

    Davethulhu (55869f)

  172. An employee of St. John’s Episcopal (didn’t catch the name) said that the last time Trump attended service there was St. Paddy’s Day, 2019.

    Paul Montagu (b03059)

  173. Tell me, Kevin, what is patriotic about a guy who has his quasi-military personnel clear out an area of peaceful protesters with tear gas and rubber bullets so that he could stand in front of a church and hold up a Bible for a photo op.

    Well, you’ve stacked the deck pretty deep there. Were you there? Did you see it?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  174. Also in California. It was enough to make Ronald Reagan and the NRA push for gun control.

    The Panthers entered the CA state Capitol with loaded rifles and shotguns — legal at the time. But not legal a few days later. I’m not sure I’d call a ban on parading with loaded weapons “gun control”, I don’t think the NRA was involved, and I’m pretty sure there were no dissenting votes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  175. In 2014 Obama’s administration held back from using force on Cliven Bundy because they knew the optics ere bad.

    After shooting only one of them.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  176. 172, that one tidbit should make Rep. Peter King real real mad.

    urbanleftbehind (f1f6b4)

  177. The Panthers entered the CA state Capitol with loaded rifles and shotguns — legal at the time. But not legal a few days later. I’m not sure I’d call a ban on parading with loaded weapons “gun control”, I don’t think the NRA was involved, and I’m pretty sure there were no dissenting votes.

    So Michigan should restrict the rights of citizens in their state house too?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  178. “I’m not sure I’d call a ban on parading with loaded weapons “gun control””

    I want to print out this post and hang it on my wall.

    Davethulhu (55869f)

  179. Well, you’ve stacked the deck pretty deep there. Were you there? Did you see it?

    Assume for a minute that the reporting is accurate, Kevin. Where’s the patriotism or Christianity by Trump in any of this? BTW, there will be a lot more reporting on it tomorrow, little of it to the good for Trump, as it should be.

    Paul Montagu (b03059)

  180. After shooting only one of them.

    That was in Oregon, when even the locals were against Bundy and the optics was against him. I was thinking of the earlier confrontation in Texas. I don’t remember any shooting there.

    Kishnevi (01788b)

  181. ” I was thinking of the earlier confrontation in Texas. I don’t remember any shooting there.”

    This one: https://i.imgur.com/9jdeAC5.jpg

    Davethulhu (55869f)

  182. In 2014 Obama’s administration held back from using force on Cliven Bundy because they knew the optics ere bad.

    After shooting only one of them.

    So if you’re talking about the Bundy Ranch standoff, zero people were shot.

    If you’re talking about the Malheur National Forest occupation, which was mostly his son Ammon, then the shooting took place when an idiot, I mean LaVoy Finicum, charged a police road block and got out of the car with his gun. After saying that he wouldn’t be taken alive, he was later proved correct.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  183. In 2014 Obama’s administration held back from using force on Cliven Bundy because they knew the optics ere bad. And his group was acknowledged as a fringe group.

    Your speculative Tea Party riot would get roughly the same treatment as those protesters today.

    Kishnevi (01788b) — 6/1/2020 @ 6:54 pm

    You mean the one where they murdered a member of his family?

    NJRob (35827d)

  184. Not a Christian or patriot, Part II:

    The Right Rev. Mariann Budde, the Episcopal bishop of Washington, was seething.
    President Trump had just visited St. John’s Episcopal Church, which sits across from the White House. It was a day after a fire was set in the basement of the historic building amid protests over the death of George Floyd at the hands of Minneapolis police.
    Before heading to the church, where presidents have worshiped since the days of James Madison, Trump gave a speech at the White House emphasizing the importance of law and order. Federal police officers then used force to clear a large crowd of peaceful demonstrators from the street between the White House and the church, apparently so Trump could make the visit.
    “I am outraged,” Budde said in a telephone interview a short time later, pausing between words to emphasize her anger as her voice slightly trembled.
    She said she had not been given any notice that Trump would be visiting the church, and did not approve of the manner in which the area was secured for his appearance.
    “I am the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington and was not given even a courtesy call, that they would be clearing [the area] with tear gas so they could use one of our churches as a prop,” Budde said.
    She excoriated the president for standing in front of the church — its windows boarded up with plywood — holding up a Bible, which Budde said “declares that God is love.”
    “Everything he has said and done is to inflame violence,” Budde of the president. “We need moral leadership, and he’s done everything to divide us.”
    In a written statement, Presiding Bishop Michael Curry, head of the Episcopal denomination, accused Trump of using “a church building and the Holy Bible for partisan political purposes.”

    To me, it’s offending to me as a Christ follower that a non-Christian would violently clear out a crowd and use a church and Holy Bible as political props for photo op. There’s no excuse.

    Paul Montagu (b03059)

  185. You mean the one where they murdered a member of his family?

    You’re making things up again. Please identify the Bundy family member killed.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  186. To me, it’s offending to me as a Christ follower that a non-Christian would violently clear out a crowd and use a church and Holy Bible as political props for photo op.

    Are we sure it was a Bible? I couldn’t see it well enough.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  187. You may be thinking of Ruby Ridge, NJRob.

    DRJ (15874d)

  188. Are we sure it was a Bible? I couldn’t see it well enough.

    Reporter: Is that your Bible?

    Trump: It’s a Bible.

    Note: Taking Trump’s word for anything is foolish. But he claimed it was “a” Bible.

    Dave (1bb933)

  189. mr. president donald trump, whose jawbone figures prominently in an Old Testament story, is showing the same competent leadership with the riots that he showed with the coronavirus

    except that now more people are paying attention

    10% more at least

    nk (1d9030)

  190. @188 I wonder whose bible they borrowed. 😛

    Nic (896fdf)

  191. Why, Nic, maybe it was Trump’s own Bible!

    Dana (0feb77)

  192. @191 but the reported asked him if it was his Bible and instead of saying yes, he said it was A Bible. So he musta borrowed someone’s.

    Nic (896fdf)

  193. Paula White’s? There was also a Bible study group in the White House before her, and it might still be there. And whose Bible was Melania holding when she swore him in?

    nk (1d9030)

  194. Ok, ok, Roberts swore him in, but Melania was holding the Bible he had his tiny hand on.

    nk (1d9030)

  195. Ok, ok, Roberts swore him in, but Melania was holding the Bible he had his tiny hand on.

    Yeah, it looked like a baby picking up an Encyclopedia Britannica, and that was a pocket Bible. What I’m saying is he has a tiny… Weenie. You thought I was going somewhere else with that, didn’t you.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  196. Oh the optics are far worse than that, Paul Montagu. I finally saw the news report, several actually, and it was truly stunning.

    First, in his speech, Trump says, “I am the president of law and order, and an ally to all peaceful protesters.” Then he walked out of the Rose Garden.

    In Lafayette Park, there were protestors. It was about ten to twenty minutes before 7:00 PM, when the curfew began. And they were protesting peacefully, unlike the mob the night before, which stayed late into the night, lit fires and torched the church nursery. Maybe it was a different crowd on this night, but these protestors were behaving peacefully, not storming the fences, starting fires or causing damage.

    As they were approached by a fully armed paramilitary squad of federal police, with helmets, shields, batons, and rifles, tactical gear for a riot. They raised their hands, saying “Don’t shoot! Don’t shoot!”

    They were shot. Not just with rubber bullets, the federal police also used flash bangs, smoke grenades, and tear gas, as they pushed the protestors back with their shields and batons. The crowd quickly dispersed. Trump proudly strode across the street to St. John’s, probably thinking “That’s what I’m talking about.”

    As he stood before the boarded up, desecrated church and raised “a” Bible and posed for pictures. Did anyone else besides me notice he held the Bible upside down and backwards? He said nothing, offered no prayer, just pointed his finger to various photographers as cameras clicked, because he wanted to get the best angle. He probably wants to blow up the photo to make a campaign poster, maybe a larger-than-life size cardboard cutout. Then he left, went back to the White House.

    Worst. Photo-Op. EVER!

    I also saw the interview with Bishop Budde. She was outraged, clearly upset. But the best interview I saw was with Chris Cuomo and his family priest, Father Beck, who made the most salient point. “Jesus was a peaceful protester.”

    The hypocrisy here is rank, the malignant narcissism evident, and the cruel authoritarianism on full display. Real Christians, people of faith, treat their Bibles with respect. Trump uses “a” Bible as a prop, and he doesn’t even know how to hold it respectfully.

    By the way, his poll numbers are down double digits among Evangelicals, Protestants and Catholics.

    Even worse from an optics standpoint, peaceful “I Can’t Breathe” protests are being held in multiple countries around the globe. Now, these are anti-racism protests, but they are not surrounded by violence, mayhem, vandalism, arson, looting, wanton destruction, as the ones here are. The contrast is stark. These protestors are not destroying their communities and ruining their economies. That says a lot.

    More to the point, CNN broadcasts worldwide. So when these peaceful protestors and other people in other countries see the President of the United States say, “I am an ally of all peaceful protestors,” walk out of the Rose Garden and have an armed paramilitary force shoot, throw flash bangs and smoke grenades, use tear gas on peaceful protestors, just because Trump wants a picture, none of them are going to respect or trust him.

    Even more to the point, most of all these other people are deeply religious and faithful. To see the President of the United States stand in front of a burned out, boarded up historical church and not even know how to hold a Bible is disgraceful.

    They proper way to hold a Bible is with the back cover on your left hand and with your right hand on the front cover. Then say a prayer, perhaps read from Scripture. The whole purpose is promote the teachings of Christ our Lord–heal the sick, comfort the suffering, help the poor, raise up the children, love one another.

    Trump is incapable of that. He’s a follower of prosperity gospel and his fraudulent advisor, whose name I will not speak. I doubt he’s ever read the Bible or believes in the Sacraments (especially marriage). He’s never given confession, asked for forgiveness, performed penance, or taken communion in his life.

    All he’s capable of doing is lying in a speech, ordering storm troopers to forcibly remove peaceful protestors, so he can hold “a” Bible upside down and backwards for the worst photo op ever, in front of a desecrated church.

    Not a Christian. Not a Patriot III. Now he’s threatening to unleash the full force of the US military on peaceful protestors. Not only is he blasphemous, he’s dangerous. Dangerously deranged.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRE9vMBBe10

    Tin soldiers and Nixon’s coming
    We’re finally on our own
    This summer I hear the drumming
    Four dead in Ohio

    Got to get down to it
    Soldiers are gunning us down
    Should have been gone long ago
    What if you knew her
    And found her dead on the ground
    How could you run when you know?

    Unless you lived through the late 60s and 70s, you will never get it. America has serious systemic and structural problems. The same ones we had decades earlier. Unless you are willing and able to address those problems, and offer some reasonable solutions, then they’re just going to repeat themselves. That was then, this is now. Now it what is important, because this is now.

    Vote.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  197. Never get between Trump and a camera. Remember that Montenegro leader that our President pushed aside to get to the front of the pack for a photo. If he had to tear gas a crowd of peaceful protesters and plug them with rubber bullets to do it again, of course he would.

    And then there’s Trump’s Bible prop. Are his supporters really that gullible?

    noel (4d3313)

  198. 197. Yes. Yes they are.

    Gryph (08c844)

  199. Patterico, in RCoceran’s defense your post didn’t really explain what it meant to be officially designated as a terrorist organization and why doing that to a domestic group would violate peoples rights to free association.

    Well, in my defense the post made only a passing reference to it and was not designed to make the case. But, also in my defense, somehow I don’t think any level of proof, detail, argument, citations, or evidence would ever make rcocean say: gee, now that I have been presented with the arguments, I see Donald Trump’s tweet was nonsense!

    Do you? Really?

    Convincing people who are determined never to be convinced is a pastime I value just below that of repeatedly banging my head against a brick wall, and I decline to accept any responsibility for not doing it more thoroughly.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 6/1/2020 @ 5:42 pm

    I don’t think there’s anything you could ever write that would change RCocean’s mind. He seems to evaluate current events entirely around how much respect the discussion of a given event shows his tribe. That’s not a POV that alters based on facts.

    My point was that while this difference might be clear to you it will not be clear to people who lack your specific education and background. If it’s an aside or if those people aren’t who you’re writing for that’s fine. But if you wanted less legally educated readers to get that part of what you’re saying additional information was needed. I wasn’t trying to say you needed to stress that point or write for those people.

    I think you presented a weaker defense of yourself by the way. I’ve read you for years and when I didn’t get your point i assumed I was missing something and not that you were wrong or biased. It didn’t take long to figure out what you were saying. I think a stronger defense would be to expect long time readers to give you a small benefit of the doubt and not jump to the conclusion you’re presenting biased, incomplete or wrong information. Especially on a point as straightforward as the difference between calling something a terrorist organization in rhetoric and officially designating it one.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  200. Reuters
    @Reuters
    ·
    Four St Louis police officers were hit by gunfire during protests, hours after President Donald Trump vowed to use the military to halt the spreading clashes https://reut.rs/3dp93VD Follow our live updates here https://reut.rs/2AvHOdH

    __ _

    Just in case you weren’t sure who the media is blaming for all this.
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  201. Also in California. It was enough to make Ronald Reagan and the NRA push for gun control.

    The Panthers entered the CA state Capitol with loaded rifles and shotguns — legal at the time. But not legal a few days later. I’m not sure I’d call a ban on parading with loaded weapons “gun control”, I don’t think the NRA was involved, and I’m pretty sure there were no dissenting votes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/1/2020 @ 7:56 pm

    After the anti-stay at home protests guns may be banned from the Michigan state capitol.

    not everyone is Ok with it.

    “We have some people who have infiltrated the meeting… who are threatening legislators and individual committee members,

    Time123 (53ef45)

  202. 197. noel (4d3313) — 6/2/2020 @ 4:53 am

    And then there’s Trump’s Bible prop. Are his supporters really that gullible?

    Would they know the back story behind that picture?

    But I doubt that they are very, very impressed.

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  203. ABC News
    @ABC
    ·
    Joe Biden: “We can’t leave this moment thinking that we can once again turn away.”

    “The moment has come for our nation to deal with systemic racism; to deal with the growing economic inequity that exists in our nation; to deal with the denial of the promise of this nation.”
    __ _

    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol

    It’s not the case–I wish it were–that today Joe Biden became president. But today Joe Biden did his part. He rose to the occasion. Now we have to do our part. It’s up to all of us to save the country from a Trump second term, and to elect Joe Biden president.
    __ _

    Doug Powers
    @ThePowersThatBe

    If only Biden could have been a senator for 40 years and VP for 8 years he could have done something about these systemic problems. #OhWait
    __

    harkin (9c4571)

  204. We have some people who have infiltrated the meeting

    There are a ton of questions hidden here.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  205. When do we start applying the Charlottesville rules and stop claiming that fine people are showing up for these riots?

    frosty (f27e97)

  206. 205. I don’t think “we” ever made that claim, Frosty. 😉 But on a more serious note, don’t hold your breath waiting for the MsM to retract that claim.

    Gryph (08c844)

  207. “After shooting only one of them.”

    – Kevin M

    I see you’re against shooting the white lawbreakers, at least. You probably have some principled distinction between breaking into a wildlife refuge and breaking into a Target, right?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  208. “This isn’t patriotism, but the opposite.”

    – Kevin M

    I’m done with “patriotism.” You are demonstrating clearly that “patriotism” is a blanket for people to pull over their eyes, so they don’t have to see the violence being inflicted in their names.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  209. 205. frosty (f27e97) — 6/2/2020 @ 9:32 am

    When do we start applying the Charlottesville rules and stop claiming that fine people are showing up for these riots.

    When they impose a curfew, (if targeted) so that the only people there are people who came to steal (or divert the police to facilitate stealing.)

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  210. Rich Galen at mullings.com tells a story:

    https://www.mullings.com/06-01-20.htm

    He easily (or maybe not so easily) could have wound up as one of the National Guardsmen at Kent State.

    Read it for the back story. As we approach the meat:

    After two years in the NJ Guard, I decided to go back to school and reapplied to Marietta. I was accepted but I had this reserve obligation thing.

    I did all the paperwork and on 30 January, 1969 I reported for duty at the Armory on Front Street in Marietta, Ohio 45750

    I had been trained as a “Unit Armorer” meaning I could fix any gun from a .38 (used by the MPs) to a .50 caliber machine gun. The Ohio Guard unit didn’t need one of those, so I became the Training NCO. Except I wasn’t a non-commissioned officer, so I named myself the Training Almost NCO.

    Came the anti-war demonstrations.

    My unit was a long way from Kent State. We got called to to Ohio State University in Columbus to put down misbehavior, and to Ohio University in Athens – about 40 miles away from Marietta. But, for whatever reason, we weren’t in Kent, Ohio on May 4, 1970.

    At this time the standard weapon for Ohio National Guard members was an M-14 rifle which fired a 7.62 mm “NATO” round. It is a big bullet.

    We didn’t have bean bags, or rubber bullets. Our riot training was a couple of hours of what we called “Smokin’, Jokin’ and Hanging Around” on the drill floor pretending to move an invisible group of people out the back door.

    Thirteen people were shot that day at Kent State University; four were killed.

    They were killed by kids just like me probably tired, underpaid, scared of being overrun by hundreds or maybe thousands of students. The only weapon they had was an M-14 that fired a very lethal 7.62 mm round.

    After that the training became more focused, and I took my job much more seriously. We were issued non-lethal ammunition and learned the theories of riot control.

    SIDEBAR II

    One of the theories was to leave the demonstrators an easily identifiable exit route so they knew they could get out of trouble and not panic into an escalating situation.
    I don’t know if that’s still in the doctrine but it should be.

    END SIDEBAR II

    Marietta College was not a hotbed of anti-war activity. Someone burned down the bookstore, but I covered it as the news director for the local radio station, WMOA, not as E-4 Galen, Richard A., NG21801329.

    That day in May has stuck with me. A group of kids under trained, over armed, kids like me who panicked, fired into a crowd and killed four students probably the same age.

    I don’t know what the point of all this is, except to say that there but for the Grace of God it might have been me – on either side of the firing line.

    I’ll bet a lot of cops. State Police and National Guard Members around the nation, good men and women, trying not to get hurt, and trying not to get into a situation where they have to hurt a civilian; I’ll bet they are thinking the same thing.

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)

  211. I’m done with “patriotism.”

    Gone in 60 Seconds!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  212. 2. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/1/2020 @ 8:44 am

    I note that Culver City was not attacked. Wasn’t attacked in 1992, either, although L.A. buildings near it burned. Do you suppose that civic attitudes matter in this?

    Maybe that’s where a warehouse with stolen goods is.

    https://www.loopnet.com/california/culver-city_warehouses-for-lease

    Sammy Finkelman (fd3539)


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