Patterico's Pontifications

4/5/2020

President Trump Advises Americans To Try Hydroxychloroquine, If They’d Like

Filed under: General — Dana @ 1:05 pm



[guest post by Dana]

During his Coronavirus Task Force briefing yesterday, President Trump didn’t just promote hydroxychloroquine, he encouraged people to take it to treat coronavirus. This after Dr. Hahn (FDA Commissioner) cautioned about its use:

DR. HAHN:

I’m going to speak about hydroxychloroquine and the efforts around that…Last week as the president said, we issued an emergency use authorization to allow the donated hydroxychloroquine to come into the country and enter the general circulation. We are prioritizing this drug to come in for clinical trials, also to general use for physicians because, as you know, physicians, based upon their interaction with the patients, their assessment of the risks and benefits, can write a prescription for hydroxychloroquine if they think it’s appropriate for that patient. Being a physician, we do this all the time, and that assessment needs to be done between a patient and a doctor. And then the third portion is we wanted to make sure that these drugs were in the supply chain so that people who have them or need them for the other indications, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, had them available. So that was the purpose of the emergency use authorization.

PRESIDENT TRUMP (later in the briefing):

One of the reasons that I keep talking about hydroxychloroquine is that the question that nobody ever asks, and the question that I most hate the answer to is what happens if you do have a ventilator? What are your chances? I just hope that hydroxychloroquine wins. Coupled with perhaps the Z pack, as we call it, dependent totally on your doctors, and the doctors there.

Because you know the answer to that question. If you do have the ventilator, you know the answer to that question. I hate giving the answer, so I don’t want to get them there. I don’t want to get them there. There’s a possibility, a possibility, and I say it. What do you have to lose? I’ll say it again. What do you have to lose? Take it. I really think they should take it, but it’s their choice, and it’s their doctor’s choice or the doctors in the hospital. But hydroxychloroquine. Try it, if you’d like.

But I’ve seen some results now. It’s early, I guess. It’s early, and they should look at the lupus thing. I don’t know what it says, but there’s a rumor out there that, because it takes care of lupus very effectively as I understand it. It’s a drug that’s used for lupus.

So there’s a study out there that says people that have lupus haven’t been catching this virus. No. Maybe it’s true. Maybe it’s not. Why don’t you investigate that?

And there’s also other studies with the malaria that the malaria countries have very little people that take this drug for malaria, which is very effective for malaria, that those countries have very little of this virus. I don’t know. You’re going to check it out. But I think people should … If it were me, in fact, I might do it anyway. I may take it. Okay. I may take it, and I’ll have to ask my doctors about that, but I may take it.

And there was more from Dr. Trump:

During the briefing, as Dr. Fauci and other advisers looked on, the president talked about the potential of other medicines, too. He mentioned azithromycin, often referred to as a Z-Pak, which has been given to some patients along with hydroxychloroquine.

“The other thing, if you have a heart condition, I understand, probably you stay away from the Z-Pak. But that’s an antibiotic. It can clean out the lung. The lungs are a point of attack for this horrible virus.”

The President of the United States is putting any number of Americans at potential risk, not only by touting the drug, but by casually advising them to try it, like it was a Tic-Tac. It is apparent that the President has become increasingly reckless about what he says. More so than he was in March, when he said of the drug: “It’s been around for a long time, so we know that if things don’t go as planned it’s not going to kill anybody.” And it doesn’t lessen the potential damage by throwing in the caveat, “it’s their doctor’s choice or the doctors in the hospital.” I’ve said it a million times: Trump holds the most powerful position in the world, and his words carry that much more weight because of it. He plays fast and loose with the facts, contradicts the medical experts standing next to him, and has the temerity to disagree with these same experts after they clean up his verbal messes. This is reckless behavior, and because of his directive, people might fall ill, or even die. And if they do, because they stupidly followed his advice, then Trump would bear some level of moral responsibility. These are dangerous times, and when the chief executive cavalierly tells Americans to take a drug and has no idea how it might affect them, he potentially endangers them. And while I don’t believe that the vast majority of Americans would take medical advice from Trump, there is a loyal base of true believers who hang on his every word. So much so, in fact, that they put him into office.

Meanwhile, the President might want to read this:

[A] study just published in a French medical journal provides new evidence that hydroxychloroquine does not appear to help the immune system clear the coronavirus from the body. The study comes on the heels of two others – one in France and one in China – that reported some benefits in the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin for COVID-19 patients who didn’t have severe symptoms of the virus.

I am a medicinal chemist who has specialized in discovery and development of antiviral drugs for the past 30 years, and I have been actively working on coronaviruses for the past seven. I am among a number of researchers who are concerned that this drug has been given too much of a high priority before there is enough evidence to show it is indeed effective.

There are already other clinical studies that showed it is not effective against COVID-19 as well as several other viruses. And, more importantly, it can have dangerous side effects, as well as giving people false hope. The latter has led to widespread shortages of hydroxychloroquine for patients who need it to treat malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, the indications for which it was originally approved…Thus, despite the recent approval of this drug for use against COVID-19, questions remain as to the efficacy of this treatment. As Molina and colleagues note: “Ongoing randomized clinical trials with hydroxychloroquine should provide a definitive answer regarding the alleged efficacy of this combination and will assess its safety.”

You can watch the press conference from yesterday here.

–Dana

197 Responses to “President Trump Advises Americans To Try Hydroxychloroquine, If They’d Like”

  1. Anyone who tries to excuse this with, “it’s just Trump being Trump,” has lost my respect.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  2. Dana, it is certainly “Trump being Trump”. That isn’t to in any way excuse him. Some of us have been shouting from the mountain-tops that this man is dangerous since BEFORE he was elected, and his conduct in a number of areas has damaged our nation. He is, for instance, an economics moron who thinks he knows how to MANDATE international trade. His idiot tariffs have imposed a tax on every American consumer AND harmed producers and their employees. Of course, SOME businesses and unions have benefited, and have their lips planted firmly on his butt. So he thinks everything is swell.

    We could discuss foreign policy, as well. Or about anything he’s touched, except for the judiciary.

    The man was, is, and will be a menace…probably as long as he lives, in or out of office.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  3. Ragspierre, I like the clarification, and amended my comment to reflect it.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  4. As I said before, Trump is the walking, talking illustration of the dunning-kruger effect.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  5. Doesn’t he realize how many voters he stands to lose?

    nk (1d9030)

  6. Dr Trump, lol!

    This is one of the more frustrating aspects of this pandemic.

    Someone caught wind of this treatment early and we’ve seen a few try to take credit for it before the work is done. Trump is one, that Vladimir doctor is another, and it’s totally irresponsible.

    This treatment is considered a partisan issue by many Trump supporters. One blogger wrote a few days ago, ‘the press lied, people died!’ about hydroxychloroquine. The implication being that if the drug works in any combination or dose, that just proves that Trump’s critics were ‘on the other side’ and therefore anti-medicine.

    And to the extent it doesn’t work, or that people misuse Trump’s advice, or attention that could have gone towards other ideas earlier? Trump accepts no responsibility for that.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  7. “What do you have to lose? I’ll say it again. What do you have to lose?” – President Donald J. Trump April 4, 2020

    Your life, Captain, sir. More strawberries, dear?

    ___________

    -UK PM BoJo hospitalized w/CornyVee.

    -Fired commander of USS Theodore Roosevelt tests positive for CornyVee.

    And so a new week begins…

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  8. It must utterly exhausting for Fauci and Birx to continually have to correct the President, while waiting for him to misrepresent or make false claims about current treatment options. How aggravating. Their reputations are on the line, and he certainly isn’t helping by inappropriately shooting off his mouth.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  9. It’s Dr Fauci who is putting Americans at risk, and he has no answer. The United States has the lowest rate if use of hydroxychloroquine. This is not to the credit of the United States. All Dr Fauci can say is maybe it works, and maybe it doesn’t. If it doesn’t it is because it is given to people who don’t need it.

    Dr Anthony Fauci has test, isolate, and trace as the middle game. Dr Fauci doesn’t believe in hydroxychloroquine,  or artificial antibodies or any kind of treatment. Read this about what’s not being done:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-scott-gottlieb-discusses-coronavirus-on-face-the-nation-april-5-2020/

    Now there is an easy way to tell if hydroxychloroquine tends to prevent this. Has anyone with lupus who is being treated with hydroxychloroquine come down with this?

    How long should it take for the CDC to come up with the answer??

    It should be very very easy to tell us the answer in a day.

    I think they know the answer (almost none have) and they don’t want to say. There’s not enough of it around and lupus patients really need it. So they propagandize. They could reserve some.

    Of course there are a lot of unknowns:

    https://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/covid-chloroquine-hydroxychloroquine-plaquenil

    But it is not yet clear how well hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine work in patients with COVID-19. The drugs appear to protect laboratory-grown cells from coronavirus, but scientists are only beginning to test the drugs for this condition in human clinical trials.

    Doctors are not sure what dose is best for patients with COVID-19. For now, the drugs are being prescribed at a higher dose and for a shorter period of time for COVID-19 than for other conditions.

    I thnk the theory that it works primaraly by preventing an overreacton has to be wrong. It kills the coronovirus particles that are loose would seem to be the answer.

    Trump is a bit oversimplifying and there are counterindications maybe but it is probably one of the best things for someone exposed.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  10. 6. Dustin (928d9a) — 4/5/2020 @ 2:00 pm

    Someone caught wind of this treatment early

    Someone in China. In Wuhan they discovered they had no patients with both lupus and the coronavirus. That’s actually true – and China is now trying to hide that.

    This treatment is considered a partisan issue by many Trump supporters.

    That;s not Trump’s fault. That’s the Washigton medical establishment.

    What is it that mostly only Trump will take a contrary position?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  11. Weird how Spain and Italy are using it so much, our mortality rate is…pick one (higher/lower)…than theirs. Which tells us…pick one (something/nothing).

    One set of choices reflect reality, another reflects your claim.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  12. It’s Dr Fauci who is putting Americans at risk, and he has no answer. The United States has the lowest rate if use of hydroxychloroquine. This is not to the credit of the United States. All Dr Fauci can say is maybe it works, and maybe it doesn’t. If it doesn’t it is because it is given to people who don’t need it.

    Sammy, you’re getting out over your skis, son. That makes no sense.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  13. Someone in China. In Wuhan they discovered they had no patients with both lupus and the coronavirus. That’s actually true – and China is now trying to hide that.

    Only 1% of human people have lupus of any type, so anyone noticing correlation with something that 99% wouldn’t have is a phantasy. Plus, hiding it is plainly ignorant, since they’re the ones who where initially promoting it.

    That;s not Trump’s fault. That’s the Washigton medical establishment.

    What is it that mostly only Trump will take a contrary position?

    When the choices are between the informed and uninformed, you can choose uninformed all you want. The fact that they are uninformed yet extremely confident, should tell you that you’re listening to fools, but…

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  14. It boggles the mind that they guy who is essentially saying, “Hey, it’s your decision as to whether or not you want to try out this unproven drug combination to fight this disease,” is the same guy who a couple of months ago supported the idea of raising the smoking age to 21 and banning flavored vaping products. I wish he would either be a “live free or die” libertarian or else be a Bloombergian-style nanny and not swerve from one to the other as the political winds blow.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  15. It must utterly exhausting for Fauci and Birx to continually have to correct the President, while waiting for him to misrepresent or make false claims about current treatment options.

    If the President weren’t a dedicated narcissist he would have his Vice President — whom he appointed as head of the Coronavirus Task Force after all — take the lead and be the one who delivered the regular updates as the face of the administration. But that would take a leader who was emotionally secure enough to let his people step into the limelight and not try to hog the news cycle himself.

    JVW (54fd0b)

  16. When the thing you think is happening, requires a vast conspiracy of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people, to make your theory valid, and it was only surfaced by an ignoramus, it might oughta maybe make you think it might just be a you problem.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  17. That;s not Trump’s fault. That’s the Washigton medical establishment.

    Respectfully disagree, Sammy. Trump has picked ugly fights for a long time. Megyn’s bleeding out of her whatever, Obama is secretly more african than he let on, crap like that. If he wants to act like Alex Jones, he should recognize that he will politicize things he touches inappropriately. If tomorrow, Trump started saying we should all eat cheetos, he would make that a partisan issue. No big deal until he makes the cure to a pandemic a partisan issue. But when he does that, it is a predictable choice and it is his responsibility.

    This drug is an act of desperation right now. I still hope it works. It’s better than nothing. It’s being used by the desperate because it’s somewhat unsafe.

    the same guy who a couple of months ago supported the idea of raising the smoking age to 21 and banning flavored vaping products.

    Amusing!

    Dustin (928d9a)

  18. JVW (54fd0b) — 4/5/2020 @ 3:37 pm

    I agree! But as much as there is a call of “where’s Dr. Fauci?” Whenever he is absent. I can imagine the commotion if POTUS did not appear. “Trump admits he had no place up there!” “Trump abandons the USA!”

    felipe (023cc9)

  19. This treatement by hydroxychloroquine (and by the way Trump wasn’t asking people to take it without a doctor’s prescription, just to “ask your doctor” or agree – he was siding with some doctors against others) shouldn’t be partisan issue. It should be a bipartisan issue like ventilators (which is abut overhyped – it’s a last resort but doctors want last resorts and it does save 20% or more then.

    If people got hydroxychloroquine earlier there’d be less need for ventilators.

    The Governor of Michigan at first threatened doctors’ licenses if they prescribed hydroxychloroquine. Sometime later she was asking for more her state. She is said to be on Joe Biden’s short list for vice president, but I don’t think he will pick her – he will pick the Senator from Nevada, Catherine Cortez Masto. (born March 29, 1964) Harry Reid recommended her.

    The Democratic convention by the way has been postponed one month, to one week before the Republican convention but who knows if they’ll be able to hold a physical assembly.

    Maybe if they test everyone and give everyone not recovered or negative hydroxychloroquine??

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  20. Felipe, normal people CAN appear while keeping their yaps shut.

    Not, of course, T-rump.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  21. If people got hydroxychloroquine earlier there’d be less need for ventilators.

    Sammy, you’re smarter than this!!!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  22. Sammy’s fine, he doesn’t need insults

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  23. 17. Dustin (928d9a) — 4/5/2020 @ 3:41 pm

    Respectfully disagree, Sammy. Trump has picked ugly fights for a long time. Megyn’s bleeding out of her whatever,

    I saw in a 2009 book he said that about men cheated by Bernie Madoff.

    Obama is secretly more african than he let on,

    Yes Trump says a lot of things he doesn’t believe.

    This one place he knows he is much better if he turns out to be right.

    This drug is an act of desperation right now. I still hope it works. It’s better than nothing. It’s being used by the desperate because it’s somewhat unsafe.

    It’s very slightly unsafe fr some people.

    It is not a cure It is more of a preventative and stabilizer of an infections.

    And nobody knows just how much and just when it helps

    the same guy who a couple of months ago supported the idea of raising the smoking age to 21 and banning flavored vaping products.

    Then the lobbyists got to him – and also he found out that vaping wasn’t the problem but adding Vitamin E oil was. That was a piece of stupidity it took a month or more for the medical establishment to stop saying vaping caused these lung problems. It was not vaping itself and vaping had been around for a few years. How could it be vaping was suddenly causing these problems?? It took a month to end the stupidity and zero in on he true cause. Why do they act this way? Prejudice maybe.

    When the surgeon general or some other U.S. government medical figure first wanted to talk to Trump about the coronovirus around the beginning of January, Trump wanted to talk about vaping. It took some determinaton to bring the subject back to coronavirus. Trump likes controversy especially if he can feel, right or wrong, that he gets the better of the argument.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  24. Agree that Sammy should be shown respect.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  25. Sammy, I agree that there’s little about coronavirus that works for Trump’s style towards controversy and picking fights. ‘China virus’ was the best he could come up with. Then of course, screwing GM, governors, and Americans who need help.

    I think if this drug turns out to work it makes Trump look shoddy for getting in the way. But I freely admit my bias against Trump. Simply as a Christian I have a hard time with Trump’s values, and what he’s done to Americans who worship him.

    . I can imagine the commotion if POTUS did not appear. “Trump admits he had no place up there!” “Trump abandons the USA!”

    felipe (023cc9) — 4/5/2020 @ 3:48 pm

    True. Bush is a good example of this. Bush was actually prescient about pandemics, his two successors didn’t do nearly as well for the same reason Bush did well. Bush was happy to burn his political capital and reputation for success in helping Americans (And non Americans, neocon he was). Trump and Obama see things the other way. If they can spin issues to promote themselves, great, but that’s the real fight.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  26. Trump does unscheduled CornyVee Task Force Briefing. Clearly doesn’t want to be ‘media bigfooted’ by competent Cuomo pressers and Queen Elizabeth II’s superb message today.

    Begins w/saying all Americans are saying prayers for PM BoJo hospitalized w/CornyVee.[Of course, ‘all Americans’ are doing no such thing.]

    “A ventilator is a big deal.” – President Donald J. Trump, 4-5-2020

    So inspiring.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  27. Felipe, normal people CAN appear while keeping their yaps shut.

    Not, of course, T-rump.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/5/2020 @ 3:50 pm

    Indeed, he could even say “I stand correct, thanks to the great work of bla bla”. Really he could emulate Cuomo’s great speech to the troops or Queen Liz’s recent one. He doesn’t need to know the formula of the cure. That’s not even comforting to think the president is that desperate to try to figure that out. Better to inspire us, lay out the challenge, put it in context, be confident.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  28. Still waiting to hear the statistics on lupus patients with coronavirus.

    What we get is this:

    https://creakyjoints.org/symptoms/lupus-patients-do-get-coronavirus

    A couple of weeks ago, as the coronavirus pandemic was massively increasing in scale and impact, rheumatology researchers from around the globe started collaborating to collect data on patients with such conditions as lupus to answer questions exactly like this. Do patients with autoimmune conditions fare differently from COVID-19 than the general population? Do certain medications lead to better or worse outcomes?

    The registry is called the COVID-19 Global Rheumatology Alliance. (The Global Healthy Living Foundation and its arthritis patient community CreakyJoints was one of its first members and advisers.) More data is being collected daily and certainly it is too early to make any definitive conclusions about COVID-19 in rheumatology patients, but the data so far show that:

    Lupus patients do, in fact, get COVID-19.
    Many of them are taking hydroxychloroquine at the time of their diagnosi

    Weasel worsds.

    how many of those taking hydroxychloroquine get it? Are their cases milder or not?

    If it is too early to say that means there is evidence that it helps or they would say there is no evidence and attempt to debunk it.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  29. “What do I know– I’m not a doctor. But I have common sense.” – President Donald J. Trump, 4-5-2020

    Comedy gold.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  30. Just re-read all the actual posts over the last month that says find a single scientific study, that has been peer reviewed, that has a positive result with HCQ. The old french ones don’t count as, A) not scientific B) done by a man known to falsify outcomes, not just once, but enough that his lab lost accreditation C) even in that, had no statistical difference than the current treatment results in SK, Japan, and the US.

    And I’ll choose to not take my medical advice from Michigan’s guv, either, thank you very much. Desperate people do dumb things. 98%+ people that get solid healthcare survive CV-19, only about 12% actually get sick enough to go the the hospital. Claiming diet Pepsi cured you is just as scientifically valid, since you had greater than 98% chance of recovering with it.

    Don’t take medical advice from people on the internet, and certainly not from a man that can barely keep from drooling on the TeeVee. Find a Doctor, if they tell you it’s fine for you, go for it. They have malpractice insurance.

    I mean, what do you have to lose.

    The most common adverse effects are a mild nausea and occasional stomach cramps with mild diarrhea. The most serious adverse effects affect the eye, with dose-related retinopathy as a concern even after hydroxychloroquine use is discontinued. For short-term treatment of acute malaria, adverse effects can include abdominal cramps, diarrhea, heart problems, reduced appetite, headache, nausea and vomiting.

    Due to rapid absorption, symptoms of overdose can occur within a half an hour after ingestion. Overdose symptoms include convulsions, drowsiness, headache, heart problems or heart failure, difficulty breathing and vision problems.

    he drug transfers into breast milk and should be used with care by pregnant or nursing mothers.[citation needed]

    Care should be taken if combined with medication altering liver function as well as aurothioglucose (Solganal), cimetidine (Tagamet) or digoxin (Lanoxin). HCQ can increase plasma concentrations of penicillamine which may contribute to the development of severe side effects. It enhances hypoglycemic effects of insulin and oral hypoglycemic agents. Dose altering is recommended to prevent profound hypoglycemia. Antacids may decrease the absorption of HCQ. Both neostigmine and pyridostigmine antagonize the action of hydroxychloroquine.[18]

    While there may be a link between hydroxychloroquine and hemolytic anemia in those with glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency, this risk may be low in those of African descent.[19]

    Specifically, the FDA drug label for hydroxychloroquine lists the following drug interactions:[11]

    –Digoxin (wherein it may result in increased serum digoxin levels)
    –Insulin or antidiabetic drugs (wherein it may enhance the effects of a hypoglycemic treatment)
    –Drugs that prolong QT interval and other arrhythmogenic drugs (as Hydroxychloroquine prolongs the QT interval and may increase the risk of inducing ventricular arrhythmias if used concurrently)

    –Mefloquine and other drugs known to lower the convulsive threshold (co-administration with other antimalarials known to lower the convulsion threshold may increase risk of convulsions)

    –Antiepileptics (concurrent use may impair the antiepileptic activity)
    –Methotrexate (combined use is unstudied and may increase the frequency of side effects)
    –Cyclosporin (wherein an increased plasma cyclosporin level was reported when used together).

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  31. I can imagine the commotion if POTUS did not appear. “Trump admits he had no place up there!” “Trump abandons the USA!”

    Yeah, I can envision CNN, MSNBC, the NYT, LAT, WaPo and others making that case, but again, if Trump were emotionally secure he would only have to tell them “I appoint competent people to these positions and I trust them to take the lead. The Vice-President continually updates me on the work they are doing, but I think it makes more sense for him to brief the American public than have me deliver the news second-hand.”

    JVW (54fd0b)

  32. If it is too early to say that means there is evidence that it helps or they would say there is no evidence and attempt to debunk it.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 4/5/2020 @ 4:11 pm

    Here’s the problem. Some have presented this as something simple. And if this were a simple cure, we would absolutely know by now. It’s more complicated. How early someone gets it, how much shorter they need to be hospitalized, what their long term health implications are, versus others… that’s all complicated by the large numbers of those in need and the short supply of everything.

    Trump’s commentary could just maybe get some pharmacist in Oklahoma city to hoard some of the stuff. I’m not really sure in what conceivable way his diving into this issue helps the country. Sure, you’re right that if the drug works he can take credit. Some fans will cheer him and even insist the deep state tried to stop the cure or something idiotic like that.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  33. OMG, this behind-the-scenes look at the division within the administration over the use of hydroxychloroquine is not to be missed. It is unbelievable how many people are willing to argue with the medical experts on Trump’s coronavirus task force, as if they know better. Read the whole thing.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  34. If it is too early to say that means there is evidence that it helps or they would say there is no evidence and attempt to debunk it.

    That, is just plainly not true. They’re also not currently looking to see if hemorrhoids correlates to less CV-19, or broken left pinky toes. You can name an infinite list of things they aren’t saying does or doesn’t improve it.

    Pea gravel
    Split pea soup
    Mushy peas
    Peanut butter
    Almond butter
    Dairy butter
    Butternut squash

    But let me point back your supporting documentation, by the way, this is the actual source.

    More data is being collected daily and certainly it is too early to make any definitive conclusions about COVID-19 in rheumatology patients, but the data so far show that:

    1). Lupus patients do, in fact, get COVID-19.
    2). Many of them are taking hydroxychloroquine at the time of their diagnosis.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  35. Hey I have a butternut squash and I have no idea what to do with it. Any ideas?

    Dustin (928d9a)

  36. Butternut squash is only effective against CV-19 if administered uncooked and rectally.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  37. Dustin, split it lengthwise and put each half cut-side down in a baking pan with an inch of water; pop it in the oven at 350. Poke it periodically, and when tender you can cut it into cubes and/or puree it for a really good soup. The seeds you took out can roast like pumpkin seeds.

    Don’t use it as a medicine though.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  38. I’m trying it now. (the soup, wiseass)

    Dustin (928d9a)

  39. You can walk barefoot on pea gravel.

    Just sayin’
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  40. Hey I have a butternut squash and I have no idea what to do with it. Any ideas?

    That is the hangingest curveball evah!!!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  41. I’m trying it now. (the soup, wiseass)

    Well, if it was the other way it would be wideass wouldn’t it?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  42. @35 It’s also really good if you cut it in half (remove seeds) and oven roast it with butter and brown sugar.

    Nic (896fdf)

  43. In the most surprising news ever, I mean if it wasn’t for the perfection of the response, I can’t even…

    On March 4th, HHS announced its intention to purchase 500 million masks. But according to an AP review of federal purchasing records, the first order wasn’t placed until March 12th for $4.8 million of n95 masks. To put that date in perspective, the last day public schools were open in New York City was March 13th. 36 Americans died from COVID-19 on the same day. A far larger order for $173 million was placed on March 21st. On that date 272 Americans died. Both of these orders were placed through an ordinary commercial process rather than a directive under the Defense Production Act.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  44. Dana,

    Good post. Here’s how I see it. Trump’s going stir crazy. His focus has always been on the pomp and spectacle of the office. He’s never been a policy person or a details person, or vision person or an accountability person. He’s a salesman. He’s selling ‘Trump’. This is his vehicle to try and do that. It also gives him a chance to hang out with the Media. He loves their attention.

    Trump’s a conspiracy theorist who believes all sorts of things that aren’t true. He evaluates factual statements based on how well people accepting them as true help him right now. (pick another time he’s made factual assertions and tell me if it doesn’t follow that patter). Hydroxycholroquine-phosphate being an effective treatment helps him. So he asserts it. Than he tosses in wiggle words so he can more easily dodge accountability later.

    He also understands that the pandemic is hurting him and way he responded to it is hurting him more. (Compare his poll numbers to the poll numbers of state governors) So he wants it over. Put the two together and this is what you get. A mattress salesman making bold claims to improve his product sales tomorrow. An old man out of his element hoping a miracle will fix the problem he doesn’t know how to solve so he can go back to problems he does know how to solve (e.g. running for re-election). If people think this will help them than his brand goes up tomorrow. If they stop believing in a few days than he can assert something else. Maybe stir national sentiment by blaming China or Mexico. Maybe blame large companies like 3M or General Motors to stir up populism. He’s counting on people wanting to believe and not faulting him if it turns out to be wrong. It’s not like the public (me included wouldn’t love to find out there’s a pill we can all take to go back to normal next week.

    To Trump the facts don’t matter so long as people believe for a little bit. If they stop he’s just got to get them to believe something else.

    To much of his base Trumps accuracy matters less than that he’s mean to people they don’t like.

    Time123 (daab2f)

  45. Lots of mindreading, speculation on motivation, and disparagement there, time123.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  46. …Or the application of observation and common sense, Haiku

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  47. Donald Trump is an idiot. He just spent an hour an a half lying, and showing how stupid he is. The VP, Birx, the sailor, Fauci, continue to step in and gently (well, Fauci less gently) correct him. Then he just goes off on another idiot tangent.

    He’d be better off for his own reelection if he’d just STFU and stay in bed watching Tom & Jerry.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  48. To much of his base Trumps accuracy matters less than that he’s mean to people they don’t like.

    Time123 (daab2f) — 4/5/2020 @ 5:18 pm

    He fights.

    Not for us, not well, and not with many good results, but hey, he’s picking fights every day. If Ivana tells him no he’ll give her a little fight too, they say. Romney says ‘ok’ to joining the admin? FIGHT! GM wants to make ventilators? FIGHT! Governor buys some respirators? FIGHT! Putin wants us to stab the Kurds in the back? No problem sir.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  49. Donnie dumb dumb…Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. Proverbs 17:28

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  50. The VP, Birx, the sailor, Fauci, continue to step in and gently (well, Fauci less gently) correct him.

    I think it’s more accurate to say that they clean up his word vomit.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  51. Dana, Peter Navarro is considered a charlatan among economists. He’s Duh Donald’s tariff architect.

    I don’t wonder that he’s now the Orange Raccoon’s head witch doctor.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  52. Queen’s speech in full as she praises NHS frontline staff for help in tackling coronavirus crisis

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-04-05/queen-speech-in-full-coronavirus-outbreak-thanks-nhs-frontline-staff/

    You go, girl.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  53. It’s like calling you and others like you tools of the CCP.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  54. OK Cabinet, what else do you need.

    Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

    Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  55. “Has anyone with lupus who is being treated with hydroxychloroquine come down with this?”

    I did a little looking around and found this thread:

    We now have 110 patients in our registries (EULAR + Global). Approximately 70% are female, and 18% are over the age of 65.

    https://twitter.com/rheum_covid/status/1245750037222690820

    Within the thread was this:

    One frequently asked question: over 25% of patients who developed a COVID-19 were on HCQ at the time of diagnosis.

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  56. “This is not a major threat to the people of the United States.”

    — – Dr. Anthony Fauci, Jan. 21, 2020

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  57. Time123,

    Agreed.

    Also, it’s unbelievable how his extreme self-centeredness has not only resulted in a slow response time to the crisis at hand, but has also harmed his re-election chances. Being a leader, and jumping on the crisis before it became the nightmare that it is, would have established him as a necessary leader to effectively manage the crisis. It would have benefitted the American public, and it certainly would have benefitted his re-election hopes. As it stands, however, being his own worst enemy has not only brought harm to Americans, it has likely shot any chances he has of being re-elected.

    The thing is, I don’t believe he had to adopt a “never let a crisis go to waste” mentality to manipulatively try and present a heroic image. All he had to do was be competent, consistent, strategic, accept recommendations from the experts around him, and be willing to defer to medical experts when necessary. At the same time, this behavior would have convey hope and confidence in the American people. This would have demonstrated that we had a real leader in charge. The rest would have taken care of itself.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  58. Chloroquine and Z-pak are both prescription drugs. A patient can take these on in his doctor prescribes it. So, it’s wrong to compare it to eating candy.

    David in Cal (f8ea8c)

  59. I’m pasting liberally about the blowup in the Situation Room:

    Behind the scenes: This drama erupted into an epic Situation Room showdown. Trump’s coronavirus task force gathered in the White House Situation Room on Saturday at about 1:30pm, according to four sources familiar with the conversation. Vice President Mike Pence sat at the head of the table.

    Numerous government officials were at the table, including Fauci, coronavirus response coordinator Deborah Birx, Jared Kushner, acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad Wolf, and Commissioner of Food and Drugs Stephen Hahn.

    Behind them sat staff, including Peter Navarro, tapped by Trump to compel private companies to meet the government’s coronavirus needs under the Defense Production Act.
    Toward the end of the meeting, Hahn began a discussion of the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine, which Trump believes could be a “game-changer” against the coronavirus.

    Hahn gave an update about the drug and what he was seeing in different trials and real-world results.

    Then Navarro got up. He brought over a stack of folders and dropped them on the table. People started passing them around.

    “And the first words out of his mouth are that the studies that he’s seen, I believe they’re mostly overseas, show ‘clear therapeutic efficacy,'” said a source familiar with the conversation. “Those are the exact words out of his mouth.”

    Navarro’s comments set off a heated exchange about how the Trump administration and the president ought to talk about the malaria drug, which Fauci and other public health officials stress is unproven to combat COVID-19.

    Fauci pushed back against Navarro, saying that there was only anecdotal evidence that hydroxychloroquine works against the coronavirus.

    Researchers have said studies out of France and China are inadequate because they did not include control groups.
    Fauci and others have said much more data is needed to prove that hydroxychloroquine is effective against the coronavirus.

    As part of his role, Navarro has been trying to source hydroxychloroquine from around the world. He’s also been trying to ensure that there are enough domestic production capabilities inside the U.S.

    Fauci’s mention of anecdotal evidence “just set Peter off,” said one of the sources. Navarro pointed to the pile of folders on the desk, which included printouts of studies on hydroxychloroquine from around the world.

    Navarro said to Fauci, “That’s science, not anecdote,” said another of the sources.

    Navarro started raising his voice, and at one point accused Fauci of objecting to Trump’s travel restrictions, saying, “You were the one who early on objected to the travel restrictions with China,” saying that travel restrictions don’t work. (Navarro was one of the earliest to push the China travel ban.)

    Fauci looked confused, according to a source in the room.

    After Trump imposed the travel restrictions, Fauci has publicly praised the president’s restriction on travel from China.

    Pence was trying to moderate the heated discussion.

    “It was pretty clear that everyone was just trying to get Peter to sit down and stop being so confrontational,” said one of the sources.

    Eventually, Kushner turned to Navarro and said, “Peter, take yes for an answer,” because most everyone agreed, by that time, it was important to surge the supply of the drug to hot zones.

    The principals agreed that the administration’s public stance should be that the decision to use the drug is between doctors and patients.

    Trump ended up announcing at his press conference that he had 29 million doses of hydroxychloroquine in the Strategic National Stockpile.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  60. Lots of mindreading, speculation on motivation, and disparagement there, time123.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/5/2020 @ 5:24 pm

    It’s all speculative based on what I’ve seen from him in the last 3 years. But how far off do you think my analysis is?

    Do you dispute that his focus has been on the pomp and spectacle of the office? Can you offer strong examples of his vision or attention to details?
    Do you dispute his support of conspiracy theories?
    Do you dispute that this pandemic and his handling of it has hurt him?

    The thesis of my comment is that he evaluates factual accuracy based on if it helps in the moment or not. Do you dispute that? This blog has dozens of examples of Trump being wrong on the facts. Find me one where the inaccuracy didn’t help him.

    Time123 (daab2f)

  61. The thing is, I don’t believe he had to adopt a “never let a crisis go to waste” mentality to manipulatively try and present a heroic image. All he had to do was be competent, consistent, strategic, accept recommendations from the experts around him, and be willing to defer to medical experts when necessary. At the same time, this behavior would have convey hope and confidence in the American people. This would have demonstrated that we had a real leader in charge. The rest would have taken care of itself.

    Trump has to be the center of attention. Plus he thinks he’s the smartest man in the room, any room. In fact, there has never been a room with him in it that he wasn’t the dumbest, but he’s so narcissistic he can’t admit experts exist outside of his own skill(?)set. He can’t let experts speak, because that would mean he wasn’t the expert.

    None of this is new, this was obvious in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s…5 years ago, 5 minutes ago.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  62. @58

    Dana, you’re right, and what’s more this is a problem where is general policy preferences for isolation and a command economy would have been applicable. But i see three roadblocks for him

    1. It would have had a cost and getting people to see the problem and willingly pay that cost could have been work and risky. There aren’t many examples of him taking risks and leading from the front. The areas where he’s taken bold steps have been pretty safe for him with his base politically.
    2. His standard approach is that whatever someone else did is bad, whatever he’s doing is the best ever. (Easy example is his statements on the unemployment rate when he’s president vs when Obama was president) This situation doesn’t fit that because he has to say a bad thing is happening during his presidency.
    3. It would have included an economic cost. He’s been reluctant to push policies that have a big impact on the economy. Good example is in his trade war with China. There have been definite limits to how hard he will push. We could see those around Christmas wrt to consumer electronics.

    Time123 (797615)

  63. Alicia Smith
    @Alicia_Smith19
    ·
    I try my best to stay out of the DC press corps clusterfuq drama, but this whole pandemic has shown how disconnected DC press corp is.

    The press is extremely invested in constructing/highlighting a soap drama btwn Trump+Fauci as millions are losing their jobs and thousands die
    __ _

    Jimmy
    @JimmyPrinceton
    ·
    We’d be better served if science / health reporters were in the room for these task force briefings. Not thirsty political reporters aspiring for Twitter clout and a future book deal.

    _

    Kinda sorta
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  64. Lots of mindreading, speculation on motivation, and disparagement there, time123.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/5/2020 @ 5:24 pm

    I can give you a similar analysis of how I think Obama was self absorbed, incrementalist, timid to the point of fearful and his overestimation of his own smarts combined with lack of will worked terribly in foreign policy…but that’s in the rear view mirror.

    Time123 (797615)

  65. Word that Daniel Ortega may’ve been taken by the virus.

    John Kerry, Patrick Leahy, Bernie Sanders hardest hit.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  66. If it were me, in fact, I might do it anyway.

    Promises, promises.

    But really, would anyone here take a drug because Trump thought it was harmless/effective/a good idea (pick any)? Even folks (here) who like aspects of what he does are not exactly willing to take medical advice from the man. We are ALL smarter than Trump, and probably more informed (I say “probably” because he has vast resources (which he largely ignores)).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  67. There is literally no human knowledge that is unavailable to him, yet he avoids knowledge like it’s Coronavirus dressing on a healthy salad.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  68. Indeed. If he wanted to know how many jelly beans it would take to fill the Albert Hall, he’d have the answer within the hour. But instead he passively accepts anything he hears on OANN or the crazier corners of Fox.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  69. 34. 1). Lupus patients do, in fact, get COVID-19.
    2). Many of them are taking hydroxychloroquine at the time of their diagnosis.

    Many but not all. What percent? Is there a statistical difference?

    This reads like they are hiding something.

    Now there’s one big problem: A lot of people exposed never develop serious illness in any case.

    But we still do have a “natural experiment” here. They should just tell us what the facts are as best they can tell. It shouldn’t be too hard.

    We don’t need phrases like “many” lupus patients are taking hydroxychloroquine. We’re not interested in lupus patients per se, but in those taking hydroxychloroquine compared with those lupus or arthritis patients who are not. Medicare, or sampling of doctors, can get those records. There’s no need to talk about other things. Is it statistically significant? Or not enough cases yet to tell for sure at 95% confidence level but good at 75% confidence level?

    There’s another problem going on: Amount of virus particles exposed to is not even speculated about. But it obviously makes a difference. Which is why ineffective masks are effective.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  70. auci pushed back against Navarro, saying that there was only anecdotal evidence that hydroxychloroquine works against the coronavirus.

    And what is so bad about anecdotal evidence?

    Isn’t all medical training of doctors based on anecdotal evidence?

    Yes it requires judgement including maybe being able to tell if someone is lying. But scientific studies can be rigged.

    and tell me where is the scientific study that says staying 6 feet away, or washing hands is enough or that masks can;t be cleaned? Do they have a scientific basis for anything they say that is more than anecdotal or based on questionable studies about the flu?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  71. Isn’t all medical training of doctors based on anecdotal evidence?

    No. Sammy, this isn’t like you!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  72. This reads like they are hiding something.

    That’s just silly on the basic premise. Not all humans get CV-19, not all left handed humans, right handed, male, female, lupus, malaria, HIV, blue eyes…

    It reads nothing like this, it reads exactly like it says, people with lupus get CV-19, people with Lupus who take HCQ get CV-19. That’s all it says.

    You’re initial claim:

    If people got hydroxychloroquine earlier there’d be less need for ventilators.

    Is completely and utterly unsupported by a single fact. Not one, zero, zilch, nada.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  73. Researchers have said studies out of France and China are inadequate because they did not include control groups.

    Really? And who’s going to do them?

    Knowledge can’t be ignored just because there was no control group.

    Similiar people previously taking or not taking hydroxychloroquine is your control group. Now get those results out!

    Fauci and others have said much more data is needed to prove that hydroxychloroquine is effective against the coronavirus.

    How much is needed to make a good guess?

    And is anything they are talking about, including social distancing or isolation, more than just a guess??

    Was there a scientific study published about that ??

    Now yes we have control groups. Sweden or UK vs Germany. But it is all anecdotal.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  74. people with lupus get CV-19, people with Lupus who take HCQ get CV-19. That’s all it says.

    Come on. They have numbers, percentages.

    You’re initial claim:

    If people got hydroxychloroquine earlier there’d be less need for ventilators.

    Is completely and utterly unsupported by a single fact. Not one, zero, zilch, nada.

    Unless hydroxychloroquine is totally useless and all the initial reports are lies, it has to be true.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  75. And what is so bad about anecdotal evidence?

    That it isn’t actually evidence: Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy and is sometimes referred to as the “person who” fallacy (“I know a person who…”; “I know of a case where…” etc.) which places undue weight on experiences of close peers which may not be typical.

    In all forms of anecdotal evidence its reliability by objective independent assessment may be in doubt. This is a consequence of the informal way the information is gathered, documented, presented, or any combination of the three. The term is often used to describe evidence for which there is an absence of documentation, leaving verification dependent on the credibility of the party presenting the evidence.

    Isn’t all medical training of doctors based on anecdotal evidence?

    Most assuredly not.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  76. Really? And who’s going to do them?

    You mean like the actual testing being done in NYC and MN? Like an actual test.

    Knowledge can’t be ignored just because there was no control group.

    When it’s not knowledge and little better than a rumor, initiated by a known fraud, and perpetuated by another.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  77. Unless hydroxychloroquine is totally useless and all the initial reports are lies, it has to be true.

    Yes, totally useless and the two French tests are lies, that is correct.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  78. Now Navarro dumping a bunch of reports/studies on the table that nobody has read or cross examined ore double checked can’t tell you too much.

    What nothers me is that there could be other chemicals better than hydroxychloroquine. we shouldn;t get focused on just one thing/

    And again Dr. Scott Gottlieb:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-scott-gottlieb-discusses-coronavirus-on-face-the-nation-april-5-2020

    …But what we also need is a drug that could be used either as a preventative tool, a prophylaxis, as a bridge to a vaccine or a treatment for people who are likely to have a bad outcome with this virus. There are about four or five drugs that I would say are in advanced stages of development that could be available by this summer. We need to place significant bets on each of those drugs and try to pull them through more quickly. This is a time for placing bets.

    …. The- the strategy that looks the most promising are these antibody-based drugs where you basically develop an antibody that can directly target the viruses. Four experienced companies working on this. There’s every reason to believe this strategy should work. It’s worked in other settings of viruses. We need to start pulling those through more quickly. And there’s a couple of antiviral drugs that directly target the virus and block its replication that look effective and maybe used early in the course of the disease will be effective. Nothing’s a home run here, but we don’t need a home run.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  79. You bet now is producing it.

    But when it comes to using it, you also need to rely on anecdotal evidence. The best guess at the time.

    Or you’ll achieve nothing and do nothing

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  80. mr. president trump, who never did a favor for a mega-donor unless asked nicely, is a very smart man

    he had an uncle who went to mit

    do you have an uncle who went to mit?

    i bet you don’t

    nk (1d9030)

  81. Now Navarro dumping a bunch of reports/studies on the table that nobody has read or cross examined ore double checked can’t tell you too much.

    Unfortunately for Navarro, they had been reviewed, extensively, and discounted as worthless. The French “studies” have been discounted mainly because as a methodology, removing all the people going into ICU or dying from the study without taking them into the calculations. Every single patient was cured quicker…except the ones who died or went into ICU and couldn’t continue on the studies.

    This has all been hashed over many many times, maybe you missed them. I’ll wait to respond until you familiarize yourself with the current facts.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  82. But when it comes to using it, you also need to rely on anecdotal evidence. The best guess at the time.

    Or you’ll achieve nothing and do nothing

    No, Sammy. This is called unethical AND dangerous. You don’t risk people’s health and lives on guesses. There’s a scientific method for reasonssssssssd.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  83. The French and Chinese have both recently repeated studies and both the French Chinese researchers found that HCQ was slightly harmful and not helpful.

    But again, they are small, and not terribly well controlled, so to date, zero peer reviewed medical studies that show any positive benefit, at all. Zero, zilch, nada.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  84. At first I thought that Trump was pandering to the alt.right loonies who promulgated the chloroquine fixation. But I’m moving that to third place:

    My contenders for first and second place, are:
    1. Follow the Benjamins. Who is making money out of this?
    2. Fuhrer complex. Like Hitler ordering a German soldier to jump out of an airplane without a parachute to prove his loyalty. A variation of shooting somebody on Fifth Avenue.

    I tend to favor this order, because it explains both Trump and Navarro. If it were only Trump, I might reverse it on the basis that he loves his ego more than money and once having said it he was going to make it The Truth no matter what.

    And, of course, the choices are not mutually exclusive. All three can be true at the same time.

    nk (1d9030)

  85. And what is so bad about anecdotal evidence?

    76. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/5/2020 @ 6:50 pm

    That it isn’t actually evidence: Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy and is sometimes referred to as the “person who” fallacy (“I know a person who…”; “I know of a case where…” etc.) which places undue weight on experiences of close peers which may not be typical.

    It maybe requires some judgement, because of cofounding factors.

    The term is often used to describe evidence for which there is an absence of documentation, leaving verification dependent on the credibility of the party presenting the evidence.

    So?

    We’re no dealing with just one person saying something.

    SF: Isn’t all medical training of doctors based on anecdotal evidence?

    Most assuredly not.

    Tehn what do they have internships for?

    And what is this?

    https://www.nytimes.com/column/diagnosis

    100% anecdotal stories,

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  86. You bet now is producing it.

    But when it comes to using it, you also need to rely on anecdotal evidence. The best guess at the time.

    Or you’ll achieve nothing and do nothing

    They’re using the anecdotal evidence to justify starting actual, real, scientific trials, to actively prove, or disprove, the effectiveness. One will be published in two days from the NYC study group.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  87. Well, SARS-CoV 2005 seemed to attach to differentiated epithelial cells in the lungs and not to undifferentiated ones. Should you start smoking heavily and start killing your epithelial cells to reduce the number of the ones that are differentiated and increase the number that are undifferentiated?

    And why are doctors concealing this from us? It can only be because smoking is politically incorrect. Right?

    nk (1d9030)

  88. OT: Users of ZOOM should be careful. especially if there is sensitive info involved. Could be equal chances of random maliciousness and Corporate sabotage.

    The SEC should closely monitor all the shorts and option plays.

    felipe (023cc9)

  89. Look, guys, haven’t you noticed that the Orange C**ksucker has only talked about deploying the Defense Protection Act but has not done it, while his personal c**ksucker, Mike Pence, is allocating to the states one-third of the ventilators they need (for just one example), and New York’s death rate has reached 10% the same as Italy’s and Spain’s? We’re talking a complete and utter failure of New York sewer scum to be a President.

    nk (1d9030)

  90. Charging cords for iPhones are a racket, just like razor blades. I refuse to pay $10-$20 for a piece of wire! The cashier at Winco last night suggested I try the dollar store. I thought, “What a brilliant idea.” Unfortunately, the dollar store was already closed.

    So I went to the dollar store today. There was one of those homeless carts packed full of junk just outside the front door. It was dingy inside the store, and there were stains on the floor. Quite depressing.

    There were charging cords galore for android phones–micro c, standard c, you name it–in all kinds of colors. There were no cords for iPhones. Highly annoyed, I found an employee unpacking some items and asked him about it. He said they hadn’t carried charging cords for iPhones for years. I started venting about the proprietary nature of Apple, and then I saw that…HE WAS UNPACKING TOILET PAPER. Seriously, there a whole shelf of it, like he didn’t even have enough room on the shelf! I hadn’t seen toilet paper in a store for weeks!

    Now, I’ve never been a fan of these cheap toilet papers that are puffed up like a loaf of Wonder bread and don’t last very long, but hey, wipers can’t be choosers! I promptly bought some.

    And so, boys and girls, remember that even disappointments can have silver linings.

    norcal (a5428a)

  91. What do you have to lose? I’ll say it again. What do you have to lose? Take it. I really think they should take it, but it’s their choice, and it’s their doctor’s choice or the doctors in the hospital. But hydroxychloroquine. Try it, if you’d like.

    As I read this I thought, you know, it’s gonna be pretty hard for his cultists make excuses for the next people he kills with his quackery.

    And then I thought, yeah right – who am I kidding?

    Dave (1bb933)

  92. As I read this I thought, you know, it’s gonna be pretty hard for his cultists make excuses for the next people he kills with his quackery.

    Like everyday for the last week, I watched the…spectacle. Trump is crazy, literally out of his mind wacko. On top of that, he’s quite possibly the dumbest human that has ever been. That there are people defending his complete ignorance, inability to think, lack of mental competence, is profoundly astounding.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  93. Norcal, that reminds me how I am tempted to do Dollar Store Rodeo (where I go to several dollar stores but only buy 1 or 2 items not exceeding 2.23 in order to get 3 quarters back each transaction) but I might be pressing my luck this critical week.

    urbanleftbehind (de3d1f)

  94. New York City coronovirus statistics as of 5:00 pm April 4, 2020 (includes both NYC residents and foreign residents treated in NYC facilities, and preliminary also.)

    Cumulative cases: One case March 1, another March 3, 14 total by March 8; 269 March 15, 10,764 March 22 33,374 March 29 60,850 April 4. Male: 33,100 Female: 27,660. Unknown sex: 90.

    Total cases by April 4: 60,850. Deaths 2,254

    In previous 24 hours: New cases: 4,565. Deaths 387.

    Total hospitalized (not at one time, I assume) 12,718. About 10,000 were released from hospital.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  95. 83. Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/5/2020 @ 7:05 pm

    my. This is called unethical AND dangerous. You don’t risk people’s health and lives on guesses.

    Doing nothing is also a risk.

    And the guesses don;t have to be wild.

    Now the argument in the White House was over nothing. They were going to produce it. There;sa real problem with it possibly endangering people’s lives. So does the virus in some cases. and patients an be assessed as to danger either way.

    A good doctor should not be arrogant and will be a bit behind the others if no special danger.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  96. Hey Sammy, Case #’s are kinda squirrely, not sure what you can do with those as the #’s will go up as more test kits become available and more people get tested. Until testing becomes widely available you can easily fool yourself looking at those numbers. Even the news people have finally gotten around to caveating their statements when they mention case #’s.

    Morbid as it may seem, death #’s may be more helpful in understanding how bad this is really getting.

    Also, appreciate you mentioning the 10,000 hospital releases, that is another important number you hardly ever hear mentioned.

    Colliente (05736f)

  97. urban,

    “Dollar Store Rodeo”. I love it!

    norcal (a5428a)

  98. NYT story this morning mentioned an emergency room doctor who was very sick at home for a week with fever and intense fatigue. A test taken after he got better came back negative so I suppose he is not among the statistics. (what, no antibody test? Not common yet in NYC I guess.)

    Daily News story tells of comedian Jimmy Cannizaro. Coughed so hard thought it was coming to the end. Doctors used to dispose of protective gear every time they visited him,

    On March 13 he went to CityMD urgent care walk in clinic. Doctor told him she thought he was going to get coronavirus. (What, what? Didn’t that mean that he already had it? But she had excellent clinical judgment except for language.)

    She sent him to emergency room but he was sent back home. Two days later had a 102-degree fever. Put into isolation. Treated for three days with antibiotics until test came back positive when they switched to hydroxychloroquine which he believes saved his life. Temp at 102 and blood oxygen level at 89% Usual is 95% to 100%. Felt better night of March 19/20. Oxygen levels crept up by morning of March 20. He went home Tuesday March 31.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  99. which he believes saved his life.

    That’s the key part. His recovery exactly follows the recovery of folks on Diet Pepsi, of course, other people die. That’s why FEELZ aren’t scientific. Anecdotes are not evidence.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  100. She sent him to emergency room but he was sent back home. Two days later had a 102-degree fever. Put into isolation. Treated for three days with antibiotics until test came back positive when they switched to hydroxychloroquine which he believes saved his life. Temp at 102 and blood oxygen level at 89% Usual is 95% to 100%. Felt better night of March 19/20. Oxygen levels crept up by morning of March 20. He went home Tuesday March 31.

    Also, there’s the key part that you probably didn’t intentionally leave out because it conflicts with your narrative.

    For the next three days, doctors treated Cannizzaro with antibiotics — until a coronavirus test came back positive. At first, his doctors gave him hyrdoxychloroquine for two days, but when that didn’t seem to work, they switched him to the drug chloroquine, which Cannizzaro believes made the difference.

    Notice the difference? I’m sure it wasn’t on purpose.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  101. 100% of people who recovered from Corona virus drank water, therefore we know that water reduces the viral load.

    I used to have a student who sincerely believed that if she heard a certain song on the radio before school, something bad would happen during the day and she 100% confirmed this was the case. Because no day is perfect, but she was looking for the bad things when she hear the song and was a victim of confirmation bias.

    Anecdotal evidence can show things we can study, but it isn’t actual evidence.

    Nic (896fdf)

  102. Daily Caller
    @DailyCaller
    Joe Biden:

    “We cannot let this, we’ve never allowed any crisis from the Civil War straight through to the pandemic of 17, all the way around, 16, we have never, never let our democracy sakes second fiddle, way they, we can both have a democracy and..” Neutral face
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  103. our president herr doktor professor drumpfenkopf graduated first in his class at trump university medical school

    his brother was a genius not as much a genius but still a genius and he taught at mit which is not harvard

    making him uniquely qualified to hold forth on off-label use of dangerous prescription drugs from the white house podium on national teevee

    Dave (1bb933)

  104. I am trying to figure out who hates trump more. Flaming liberals at democratic underground and jackpine radicals. or flaming libertarian-conservatives here? Trump try hydroxycloroquine. Trump haters and media says no clinical trials that it works so don’t use it. O.k. what do the doctors say use instead? There is nothing to treat virus and we are running low on ventilators so just die until we come up with something that trump didn’t suggest we hate him and if you have to die so be it. Your death is for the grater good of defeating trump!

    rota (73b0b7)

  105. Please, this is quackery. Hydroxychloroquine is being pushed by Dr. Oz on Fox news as a miracle drug. He’s a celebrity doctor roundly denounced by the medical community as a fraud. But he’s a regular on Fox news, so Trump considers him an expert, even though no too long ago he tweeted against taking the advice of celebrity doctors.

    Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, phosphate and sulfate, are untested and unproven as a medicinal treatment for coronavirus. That’s a simple fact, and Finkelman is a fool to suggest otherwise. I’ll start taking his posts seriously when he learns how to spell, or at least demonstrates an understanding of the distinction between a semicolon and an apostrophe.

    The most promising results thus far have been conducted by Dr. Glanville. He’s a biologist who specializes in immunology. In his small lab, he and his associates, medical professionals and graduate students, took antibodies for SARS virus, genetically modified them, and developed a prophylaxis for SARS-COV-2 that covers the proteins on the virus and prevents it from infecting human cells. That’s real science, not quackery, and it could be an actual game changer, not some celebrity pipe dream.

    Dr. Glanville has forwarded his results to the military, because they have samples of SARS and SARS-COV 2 viruses, whereas his small lab does not. It’s still in the trial process, with testing on humans months away, but it is the only advancement that shows any real promise.

    Dr. Glanville, a lowly biologist, may turn out to be the true hero in all this. Too bad he’s not on Fox news.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  106. Rota: Trump haters and media says no clinical trials that it works so don’t use it.

    Can you show me who said that?

    Because what I see people saying is

    The President of the United States is putting any number of Americans at potential risk, not only by touting the drug, but by casually advising them to try it, like it was a Tic-Tac. It is apparent that the President has become increasingly reckless about what he says. Moreso than he was in March, when he said of the drug: “It’s been around for a long time, so we know that if things don’t go as planned it’s not going to kill anybody.” And it doesn’t lessen the potential damage by throwing in the caveat, “it’s their doctor’s choice or the doctors in the hospital”. I’ve said it a million times: Trump holds the most powerful position in the world, and his words carry that much more weight because of it. He plays fast and loose with the facts, contradicts the medical experts standing next to him, and has the temerity to disagree with these same experts after they clean up his verbal messes. This is reckless behavior, and because of his directive, people might fall ill, or even die. And if they do, because they stupidly followed his advice, then Trump would bear some level of moral repsponsibility. These are dangerous times, and when the chief executive cavalierly tells Americans to take a drug and has no idea how it might affect them, he potentially endangers them. And while I don’t believe that the vast majority of Americans would take medical advice from Trump, there is a loyal base of true believers who hang on his every word. So much so, in fact, that they put him into office.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  107. Yesterday;s New York Daily News had an article that mentioned two studies (and also a doctor at the Mayo Clinic who warned of the danger of cardiac death – very small but if you giv it to a million people, you cn put 10,000 people close to the edge)

    The positive study or report was about 62 persons in Wuhan, China. (Remnin Hospital of Wuhan University) It was published Wednesday in medRXiv. Patients, all of whom had mild respiratory symptoms were divided into two groups.

    They found:

    1. Patients who received hydroxychloroquin (the treatment group) recovered on average a day earlier than the control group – I think I read somewhere if thi is the same study, two versus three days)

    2. None of those in treatment group got worse (progressed to severe disease) but four (of the approxmately 30) in the control group did.

    There was another Chinese study, of 30 Covid-19 patients in Shanghai in which therewas no difference reported (statistically anyway)

    Of course what patients get assigned to what group is pretty subjective. You put the slightly healthier patients in the control group, and you’ll get no difference. You let one or two sicker people use connections to get into the treatment group, or their just beter known, colleagues maybe, and you’ll see no difference.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  108. Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 4/6/2020 @ 1:58 am

    Please, this is quackery. Hydroxychloroquine is being pushed by Dr. Oz on Fox news as a miracle drug.

    He may be going too far. That doesn’t mean it is useless.

    What’s going on, though is that other pssibilitiesare being overlooked because this is pushed so much.

    I’ll tell you just one idea – don’t know if it has been tried: Irrigate or spray respiratory tract with solution of ethyl alcohol. It’s known to kill the virus.

    Just look here:

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3075971/why-whisky-could-kill-coronavirus-drinking-it-wont-work

    Drinking it of course just goes into the stomach and maybe temporarily mildly elevates blod alcohol levels. But a spray would be different.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  109. Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, phosphate and sulfate, are untested and unproven as a medicinal treatment for coronavirus. That’s a simple fact, and Finkelman is a fool to suggest otherwise.

    They are not untested. They are not proven beyond a reasonable doubt – there’s merely a preponderance of evidence it helps. And of course, 1,000 patients should die lest one non working drug be used. It must be in some United States Supreme Court decision that it says there is the right of medicines not to be found guilty of doing any good. Right?

    A person would be a fool to ignore it. What you don;t have is a theory as to why it works but many things were done for along time before they knew why it works. There’s probably a theory – it just isn’t getting attention. I know, I read, that hydroxychloroquine changes the pH of the blood.

    It probably kills virus particles outside of cells.

    And that may be of some use.

    It was not invented by quacks even if it turns out some quacks are pushing it. I am it sure why an antibiotoc is included in the French protocol but it makes sense for fighting secondary infections whc=ch tend to kill people with flu.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  110. He may be going too far. That doesn’t mean it is useless.

    And nobody is saying that.

    Everyone is saying that we don’t know if it’s wonderful or dreck…or even somewhere in between.

    We. Don’t. Know.

    Neither, of course, does the Thug In The Oval Office.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  111. The most promising results thus far have been conducted by Dr. Glanville. He’s a biologist who specializes in immunology. In his small lab, he and his associates, medical professionals and graduate students, took antibodies for SARS virus, genetically modified them, and developed a prophylaxis for SARS-COV-2 that covers the proteins on the virus and prevents it from infecting human cells.

    That’s probably better than hydroxychloroquine. I don’t have the slightest disagreement with that.

    It should be pursued mightily – but by the way it’s anecdotal. They weren’t even exposed to any infection! So what did they find out?

    Worse problem: Where are doctors supposed to get their hands on it??

    That’s a treatment for late summer or the fall – if Trump or Dr Fauci will endorse it.

    What you have here, in contrast with hydroxychloroquine, is a theory as to why it would work. I don’t disagree that that is valuable. But you don;t always need a correct theory.

    There’s some hope for Trump, if some supporters lobby him. Navarro, and all the others, should get off their singleminded advocacy of hydroxychloroquine. Now that’s probably caused by the need to argue with Dr Fauci and company who don’t want to advocate trying anything. There’s room only for one possibility in their arguments. Now that’s not good. We’re getting down to close to a binary choice. That doesn’t work better with medicines than with presidential candidates. This is Fauci’s fault. His job is not to wait till all the evidence comes in and fold his hands till does.

    Hydroxychloroquine probably has very real, but also limited utility .

    That’s real science, not quackery, and it could be an actual game changer, not some celebrity pipe dream.

    The fact that something doesn’t look like a game changer, and if you understand what it does there’s no basis for saying hydroxychloroquine is a game changer unless you are limiting yourself to limited help, but not being a game changer doesn’t make it a pipe dream either.

    Dr. Glanville has forwarded his results to the military, because they have samples of SARS and SARS-COV 2 viruses, whereas his small lab does not. It’s still in the trial process, with testing on humans months away, but it is the only advancement that shows any real promise.

    Dr. Glanville, a lowly biologist, may turn out to be the true hero in all this. Too bad he’s not on Fox news.

    It really is too bad he’s not on Fox News. But Dr Scott Gottlieb must have been alluding to him (and others – important!) on Face the Nation yesterday.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-scott-gottlieb-discusses-coronavirus-on-face-the-nation-april-5-2020

    You;re really like Peter Navarro, because there are all sorts of people working on ideas – which are not being bet on. First, a bet on some things that may be available in six weeks – and then abet on what’s best.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  112. I’ll tell you just one idea – don’t know if it has been tried: Irrigate or spray respiratory tract with solution of ethyl alcohol. It’s known to kill the virus.

    It will also kill the person, Sammy. As in dead. No breathing, no heartbeat, no brain function. That kind of dead.

    nk (1d9030)

  113. He [Peter Navarro] may be going too far. That doesn’t mean it is useless.

    111. Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/6/2020 @ 7:26 am

    And nobody is saying that.

    Weren’t you just saying that?

    Otherwise what’s the problem with what I said? I never thought or said that hydroxychloroquine was a game changer (which Trumop shouldn;t hve said) Just that it was probably useful with anyone coming down with a possible case of covid-19 that threatened to get worse and if more people were given it sooner there’d be less need for ventilators. Do you know there;s no guidance from CDC how to use ventilators?

    Now I see here the number of options being considered is dwindling like the number of presidential candidates. Not quite like that, but alternatives besides.

    Everyone is saying that we don’t know if it’s wonderful or dreck…or even somewhere in between.

    “Everybody” is not saying that. They;re either saying it works or that we don’t know when we do know. We are not quantifying it.

    It is somewere in between and no one has the right to say it is dr??k.

    We. Don’t. Know.

    We don’t know exactly and we’re not trying very hard to find out.

    Neither, of course, does the Thug In The Oval Office.

    He sometimes can make good guesses based on talking to a large number of people, – always exaggerating though, but look what he;s up against: Denial. If only the medical ideas without such strong promoters could reach him.

    Now who’s job is it to bring ideas to his attention>? Dr Fauci. Dr Birx. They’re not doing it. So he defaults to Dr Oz, or Hannity.

    The problem with Trump is he is interested in what a large number of people will believe (especially who voted for him) and not in what is true. Not precisely the same thing. But not totally unrelated.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  114. Irrigate or spray respiratory tract with solution of ethyl alcohol. It’s known to kill the virus.

    nk (1d9030) — 4/6/2020 @ 7:48 am

    It will also kill the person, Sammy. As in dead. No breathing, no heartbeat, no brain function. That kind of dead.

    Of course I was talking about just a mist.

    https://www.cochrane.org/CD006821/ARI_nasal-saline-irrigation-for-acute-upper-airway-infection-symptoms

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  115. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/well/live/gargle-gargling-coronavirus-infections-bacteria-virus.html

    To date, as with many things in medicine, there has been no “gold standard” large-scale randomized controlled trial to confirm the effectiveness of gargling with salt water, vinegar or any other oral solutions to prevent upper and lower respiratory infections caused by coronavirus or any other virus or bacteria. Smaller studies have shown that mouthwash and various other liquids commonly used to gargle can kill microbes, but whether gargling actually prevents or treats disease has not been proven in rigorous trials.

    A bit of ethyl alcohol ought to e more effective than salt.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  116. I’ll tell you how good (or bad) the FDA is.

    Last week they just took Zantac off the market, because in storage it tends to decompose a bit into a carcinogen.

    Zantac was originally prescription, and based on a wrong idea about ulcers – then became over the counter at half strength.

    Making a lot of Type II errors (that something doesn’t work when it does) doesn;t prevent you from making Tyoe I errors.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  117. Please note all readers. Free advice regarding medical cures from the coronavirus from blog commenters and corrupt billionaire politicians may be worth less than what you are paying for them. Please do not empty out the pool tank or the antispeptic drawer based on what you hear in a news conference. Also, just because an occasionally insightful poster starts describing purported medical cures doesn’t mean those ideas actually work.

    Non-buyer beware. The best deaths in life are free.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  118. One thing I’d like to know: Just why and when does hydroxychloroquine cause heart arrhythmias in approximately about 1% of people? Could some additive reduce risk? Does anyone care?

    What it (and other problems) means is be slightly careful about giving it. I;m sure doctors could narrow the semicounterindications down is down.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  119. Number of deaths in New York State went down last day r=or two. So we passed the apex in New York? (not in the country)

    Maybe the treatment is better so long as they don’t run out of ventilators. Gov Cuomo got some last week from China and from Oregon and moved some around state. Now they expect to need more by Wed.

    It’s still not going to be safe to walk around in 2-3 weeks.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  120. Appalled (1a17de) — 4/6/2020 @ 8:21 am

    Please do not empty out the pool tank or the antispeptic drawer based on what you hear in a news conference.

    That happened ecause there are other ingredients.

    It lalso happens whn people do not believe the governemnt.

    In Iran many died because they were selling wood alcohol as a cure.

    Of course anything here is just leads.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  121. Breaking: NYC Health Committee Chairman Braces Residents for ‘Temporary Burials’ in City Parks Due to Limited Morgue Space

    Stay safe, Sammy.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  122. until we come up with something that trump didn’t suggest we hate him and if you have to die so be it. Your death is for the grater good of defeating trump!

    Unfortunately this is what you get if you read too much Gateway Pundit or Ace of Spades these days.

    No, Rota, this isn’t what we think at all. If the situation is hopeless, or if a doctor is trying to think outside the box and knows what he’s doing, he can try these unproven remedies of course. And part of that is keeping an open mind.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  123. Sammy, calm-the-freak-down and read.

    I’ve never said this OR that is “useless”.

    People here HAVE said we just don’t know.

    While YOU have made bald statements of blind faith about not needing ventilators if…wonder drug.

    C’mon, man…!!!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  124. Here is what an infectious disease expert thinks about Trump dangerously advising Americans to take hydroxychloroquine:

    Hydroxychloroquine can have deadly effects, such as on the heart.

    There’s no real evidence it helps with #Covid_19.

    It is an experimental treatment.

    Please don’t take medical advice from people who’ve no business giving it.

    Experimental = insufficient data to determine efficacy. It doesn’t mean no one should ever take a given medicine. It means there’s a lot we still don’t know.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  125. Also, some Swedish hospitals have discontinued the use of chloroquine to treat coronavirus patients because of the side effects:

    Chloroquine has been given to covid-19 in several hospitals in Sweden. But last week, all hospitals in the Västra Götaland region stopped medicine.

    “There were reports of suspected more serious side effects than we first thought. We cannot rule out serious side effects, especially from the heart, and it is a hard-dosed drug. In addition, we have no strong evidence that chloroquine has an effect at covid-19, ”says Magnus Gisslén, professor and chief physician at the infection clinic at Sahlgrenska University Hospital.

    The Southern Hospital in Stockholm, where Carl Sydenhag received chloroquine prints for covid-19, has also decided to stop giving malaria medicine to corona patients, according to the Gothenburg Post.

    In an email to Expressen, Hedvig Glans, section manager of the infection unit at Karolinska University Hospital, writes that chloroquine was given to the more oxygen-demanding corona patients and that a thorough investigation was done before the drug was used.

    Furthermore, Hedvig Glans writes that the use of chloroquine has decreased.

    “By following developments, the scientific compilations and studies in progress, the use of chloroquine phosphate is being re-evaluated daily, and this has currently been greatly reduced and is not used routinely.”

    Dana (4fb37f)

  126. Well of course…

    In an interview with the Washington Post, Giuliani described himself as a special science adviser to Trump and said he has had several one-on-one calls with the President in recent weeks, hyping the efficacy of the use of an anti-malaria drug to treat COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus. The use of the drug to treat or even cure the novel disease has not been proven, but Trump, and some of his White House advisers, have seized on a flawed study that claimed the drug, hydroxychloroquine, could treat the disease at the center of the pandemic.

    Now, is he on retainer for Teva, Pfizer, or Mylan?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  127. “is he on retainer”

    Science advisor ain’t what it used to be

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  128. Peter Navarro says: “Doctors disagree about things all the time. My qualifications in terms of looking at the science is that I’m a social scientist.”

    One of the disturbing themes among conservatives today is a wholesale disdain for “science” and “expertise” on the grounds that the knowledge of scientists is imperfect and subject to revision, and often controversial.

    Certainly some scientists and experts may be overly confident in their conclusions and too resistant to a serious challenge. And they may be so focused on one small area that they don’t see how a wider context changes the picture. Or some might think their expertise in a narrow field can transfer easily to another one. But it’s nutty to hold the view that people who put a great deal of time into studying a particular topic don’t really know more about it than the average person on the street with “common sense.”

    If we’re to be preemptively distrustful of experts as such, then whose wisdom should we rely upon?

    Another curiosity: People who write books about the flaws and failures of “science” and “expertise” appear to be confident of their own superior ability to judge the work of scientists and experts. And they’re probably citing scientists and experts themselves by way of demonstrating how wrong the other scientists and experts are.

    Radegunda (0e8745)

  129. In an interview with the Washington Post, Giuliani described himself as a special science adviser to Trump and said he has had several one-on-one calls with the President in recent weeks, hyping the efficacy of the use of an anti-malaria drug to treat COVID-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus.

    Good grief! Please, all Trump supporters who plan to vote for Trump in November, go and demand that your doctor prescribe hydroxychloroquine for you. Please, pretty please? Don’t leave his office until he does. It’s your duty. America’s survival depends on you doing that.

    nk (1d9030)

  130. A bit of personal perspective on science & expertise: Some years ago I found that drinking raw cider vinegar or lemon juice regularly was a cheap and easy remedy for a skin condition I had already spent thousands of dollars to ameliorate. “Why didn’t the dermatologists know this?” I wondered. So maybe there are some blind spots in conventional medicine — and some people who have gone through med school have said likewise. But I didn’t conclude therefrom that the whole field is useless. And it’s doubtful that any doctor would have advised against the vinegar tonic.

    Radegunda (0e8745)

  131. All… EVERY. DRUG. HAS. DOCUMENTED. SIDE. EFFECTS. (and most are quite knarly)

    Just listing them out doesn’t really substantiate your arguments.

    These are medications only accessible by prescribers. As such, the clinical appropriateness would be assessed by the providers, irrespective of what Trump says.

    I mentioned this before, but I work for one of the largest hospital system in Missouri.

    I know this is anecdotal, but we’re not seeing the same rate of ventilation usage of covid-19 patients as the hotspots are, like in New York. There are a lot of factors that drives this, but thought this was interesting. Plus, we’re likely 1-2 weeks away from our “peak” for the region.

    Most of that is likely because my region has been prepared and applying lessons learned earlier than those initial hotspot regions.

    Also, hydroxychloroquine is being prescribed quite a bit for those in observation/inpatient stays.

    For what its worth, a consortium of Infection Disease (ID) officials from all of our regional hospsital systems are investigating whether they should recommend to offer covid-19 caretakers be given low dosages of Hydroxychloroquine as prophylactics. I don’t know which way they’re going to go, but it is a serious discussion. The ID I work with explains that it is not a traditional prophylactics as you can still be infected and be taking this medication, but the goal seems to be this:
    a) does it shorten the infection period and allow workers back faster?
    b) reducing infection period reduces overall spread.
    c) imo just as important, robust frequent covid-19 testing
    If I had to guess, its probably not happening as it still is off-label, and as such, any recommendation of this sort would probably need to come from the CDC.

    FYI Chloroquine has pretty knarly side-effects and Hydroxychloroquine is much more moderate in comparison as it is currently being used for chronic diagnosis…I’m not seeing much Chlorquine being prescribed.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  132. I also wonder how many of the people who sneer at “experts” have also chastised others for making statements about Donald Trump’s psychological condition without having professional expertise in the field, or even with such expertise but without doing an in-office exam.

    Radegunda (0e8745)

  133. Hmmm… funny how that works…

    https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/1247170207833108484

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  134. Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 4/6/2020 @ 9:04 am

    While YOU have made bald statements of blind faith about not needing ventilators if…wonder drug.

    See comment number 132 from whembly.

    That was left after I wrote that, BUT TRUTH IS TRUTH and can come at you many time from dfferent places.

    And I never said hydroxychloroquine was a wonder drug. Donald Trump and Peter Navarro the “salesman” did that. It;s forgiveable given the opposition.

    And it also seems clear that hydroxychloroquine is a lot less dangerous than chloroquine. So why did they ever use chloroquine in Sweden? Are people forced to be stupid?

    Did they switch to hydroxychloroquine in Sweden or did they stop using anything altogether?

    Seems like they’re not saying. A suspicious omission.

    Not telling the full story is propaganda. Designed to convince people nothing can help in any way/

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  135. I know this is anecdotal, but we’re not seeing the same rate of ventilation usage of covid-19 patients as the hotspots are, like in New York. There are a lot of factors that drives this, but thought this was interesting. Plus, we’re likely 1-2 weeks away from our “peak” for the region.

    Yeah, Sammy I read that. Did you?

    You said what I depicted you saying, which is not rational.

    You don’t know. We don’t know. Step back.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  136. Seems like they’re not saying. A suspicious omission.

    Is this like your omission above (99) where the actual words of the actual story that you conveniently removed, actually refuted your claim.

    Or are they just stating available facts, while you are claiming the absence of facts are the proof that there is some vast conspiracy to, what, not treat people, or something.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  137. If it were me, in fact, I might do it anyway. I may take it. Okay. I may take it, and I’ll have to ask my doctors about that, but I may take it.

    Could Trump also be encouraging people not infected with the virus to take the drug as a preventative measure? He’s not symptomatic (as far as I know), and yet he is saying that he may take it anyway, not that he would take it if he were infected.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  138. 138. Dana (4fb37f) — 4/6/2020 @ 12:58 pm

    Could Trump also be encouraging people not infected with the virus to take the drug as a preventative measure?

    Yes, he is. And he idea he may be getting at is tak that instead of social distancing. But he’s not prpared to go tere yet. Now it would be if fear of exposure.

    Now this is what a doctor gave to the ex-wife of a friend who now lives in Dallas. She was not feeling well I understand and no test had come back. What happened later I don’t know.

    whembly mentioned @134:

    For what its worth, a consortium of Infection Disease (ID) officials from all of our regional hospital systems are investigating whether they should recommend to offer covid-19 caretakers be given low dosages of Hydroxychloroquine as prophylactics. I don’t know which way they’re going to go, but it is a serious discussion.

    Are these people all fools, or followers of Donald Trump?

    The big problem is that discussion is tending to focus only on hydroxychloroquine, when there are other ideas.

    He’s not symptomatic (as far as I know), and yet he is saying that he may take it anyway, not that he would take it if he were infected.

    Donald Trump is being delphic here. I don’t think he means he would take it without cause. I do think he means to prevent an active infection if some doctor told him it was a good idea.

    Perhaps this is a bit of word salad. Getting the context would help.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  139. R.I.P. Honor Blackman, who was Cathy Gale in “The Avengers” on television, and (forever more) Pussy Galore in “Goldfinger”

    Icy (6abb50)

  140. Forget it, Sammy. The cat is out of the bag. See Colonel Klink’s Comment 127. What Trump is trying to do is boost the stocks of the drug companies who have hired Giuliani.

    nk (1d9030)

  141. 137.

    Is this like your omission above (99) where the actual words of the actual story that you conveniently removed, actually refuted your claim.

    Which iofthe two stories I mentioned @99?

    The emergency room doctor who was sick at home for a week, and when he got better was tested and the test came back negative?

    Or the person with Covid-19 in a hospital who was first sent home and two days later admitted with a fever of 102 F and only given antibiotics for three days until a test came back positive, and was then given hydroxychloroquine and thinks that saved his life?

    What claim was refuted.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  142. Now this is what a doctor gave to the ex-wife of a friend who now lives in Dallas. She was not feeling well I understand and no test had come back. What happened later I don’t know.

    Well now, that is most assuredly a fact. Like Jan’s boyfriend Martin Glass.

    Are these people all fools, or followers of Donald Trump?

    Two things can be true at once. The first is obvious, the second isn’t.

    Donald Trump is being delphic here. I don’t think he means he would take it without cause. I do think he means to prevent an active infection if some doctor told him it was a good idea.

    Dr Oz and Ruditooti. But Donald Trump is not a delphic, he is a dips**t.

    It is unclear how hydroxychloroquine would work to treat COVID-19, but the drug is one of many now being urgently studied for the treatment of the disease. The drugs being tested include those that could block viral replication, such as remdesivir, and others that may target the way the virus binds to human cells. Still other drugs aim to modulate a person’s immune response, among them a class of drugs known as IL-6 inhibitors. Hydroxychloroquine has the theoretical potential to affect the virus itself or the immune response.

    Based on the limited evidence so far, giving hydroxychloroquine to people could very well be—as with most drugs that modulate the immune system—of some benefit in some circumstances. Some people will be made sicker by it, depending on underlying physiology, other medications they’re taking, timing, and dosing. Identifying who stands to benefit and why requires data, and several randomized controlled studies of hydroxychloroquine are under way.

    Why doesn’t Trump tout any of the others, most have more likelihood of success, all have less negative results. Would there a financial component in play?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  143. 141. Drug companies can be for something that works even if they make some money and even if it not the best. Lawyers can be working for money and yet have a case.

    If Fauci et al weren’t fighting so hard against anything, maybe ideas without lobbyists would get more attention.

    Trump has avoided chloroquine. It probably has experienced manufacturers too,

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  144. Or the person with Covid-19 in a hospital who was first sent home and two days later admitted with a fever of 102 F and only given antibiotics for three days until a test came back positive, and was then given hydroxychloroquine and thinks that saved his life?

    Of course, you couldn’t possible have looked at the response in 101.

    Which lie did you think you were being called on? The first one with no claim of attribution, or the second which was known, and you actively edited the contents to remove the sentence that specifically said.

    For the next three days, doctors treated Cannizzaro with antibiotics — until a coronavirus test came back positive. At first, his doctors gave him hyrdoxychloroquine for two days, but when that didn’t seem to work, they switched him to the drug chloroquine, which Cannizzaro believes made the difference.

    Because the thing your promoting was specifically said to be doing NOTHING and it was replaced with the more dangerous one, which the former celebrity spouse BELIEVES cured him. Not a medical doctor, but the former husband of a celebrity. Definitely, take “Mike Glass’s” word, and a guy who used to be married to a famous person, and the Trump’s, word over the pesky science type folk.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  145. Donald Trump is being delphic here. I don’t think he means he would take it without cause. I do think he means to prevent an active infection if some doctor told him it was a good idea. Perhaps this is a bit of word salad. Getting the context would help.

    Unacceptable. This is making an excuse for him. He is putting people’s lives at risk by the very words that are coming out of his mouth. He is the President of the United States – he has no business being “delphic” about anything to anything to do with coronavirus. He also doesn’t have the luxury to vomit up any word salad that crosses his mind. It is reckless and irresponsible and could get people killed.

    As I said in the post:

    Trump holds the most powerful position in the world, and his words carry that much more weight because of it. He plays fast and loose with the facts, contradicts the medical experts standing next to him, and has the temerity to disagree with these same experts after they clean up his verbal messes. This is reckless behavior, and because of his directive, people might fall ill, or even die. And if they do, because they stupidly followed his advice, then Trump would bear some level of moral responsibility. These are dangerous times, and when the chief executive cavalierly tells Americans to take a drug and has no idea how it might affect them, he potentially endangers them. And while I don’t believe that the vast majority of Americans would take medical advice from Trump, there is a loyal base of true believers who hang on his every word. So much so, in fact, that they put him into office.

    Let’s stop making excuses for him.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  146. 143. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/6/2020 @ 1:20 pm

    Why doesn’t Trump tout any of the others,

    He’s not being lobbied by anyone to seek out things. and he is being lobbied (privately) about hydroxychloroquine – and against it too but the opponents don’t have a good argument.

    Of course someone should get Dr Scott Gottlieb involved.

    Where is the news media?? Where are the Democrats? Hiding from controversy and loyal to “science.”

    most have more likelihood of success, all have less negative results.

    Probably not all are better in all respects. ad what is isn’t around.

    Would there a financial component in play?

    The loger this goes on – the binary choice – – hydroxychloroquine or nothing — the more some interest will develop.

    Trump’s only interest here is getting re-elected.

    Where is everybody else besides Trump?

    Now I would say there are some big drug companies who want a high priced treatment – later. And nothing subsidized too much because then the government will own it. Who knows?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  147. If Fauci et al weren’t fighting so hard against anything, maybe ideas without lobbyists would get more attention

    The fact that smart people are saying don’t do it over dumb people, that is the reason the dumb people are the smart people.

    If you’ve shown competence in a subject in the past, that is evidence of them being unqualified, right. Donald Trump is definitely who you should be listening to, or maybe a guy on the internet who knows a guy who heard it…

    Heard it from a friend who
    Heard it from a friend who
    Heard it from another you been messin’ around
    They say you got a boy friend
    You’re up late every weekend
    They’re talkin’ about you and it’s bringin’ me down

    But I know the neighborhood
    And talk is cheap when the story is good
    And the tales grow taller on down the line
    But I’m telling you, babe
    That I don’t think it’s true, babe
    And even if it is keep this in mind

    You take it on the run baby
    If that’s the way you want it baby
    Then I don’t want you around
    I don’t believe it, not for a minute
    You’re under the gun so you take it on the run

    You’re thinking up your white lies
    You’re putting on your bedroom eyes
    You say you’re coming home but you won’t say when
    But I can feel it coming
    If you leave tonight keep running
    And you need never look back again

    You take it on the run baby
    If that’s the way you want it baby
    Then I don’t want you around
    I don’t believe it, not for a minute
    You’re under the gun so you take it on the run

    You take it on the run baby
    If that’s the way you want it baby
    Then I don’t want you around
    I don’t believe it, not for a minute
    You’re under the gun so you take it on the run

    Take it on the run baby
    If that’s the way you want it baby
    Then I don’t need you around
    I don’t believe it, not for a minute
    You’re under the gun so you take it on the run

    Heard it from a friend who
    Heard it from a friend who
    Heard it from another you been messin’ around

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  148. I hesitate posting this because it sounds too good to be true…..

    Mike Coudrey
    @MichaelCoudrey
    “Every patient I’ve prescribed [hydroxychloroquine] to has been very, very ill and within 8 to 12 hours, they were basically symptom-free,” Dr. Anthony Cardillo told Eyewitness News in Los Angeles. “So clinically I am seeing a resolution.”

    Apparently zinc is part of the story?

    “He said he has found it only works if combined with zinc. The drug, he said, opens a channel for the zinc to enter the cell and block virus replication.”

    Sure hope this is good news and not fake news. Also waiting for someone to combine aquarium cleaner with beach nose white.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  149. If you’ve shown competence in a subject in the past, that is evidence of them being unqualified, right.

    I don’t see much competence in dealing with new drugs. Or much of anything. Remember the stupdity about the dangers of vaping?

    Donald Trump is definitely who you should be listening to, or maybe a guy on the internet who knows a guy who heard it…

    Mot because he’s Donald Trump. Not because he’s the president of the United States.

    But because he;s more right than Dr Fauci and the nedical regulatory establishment. And that;s not saying much about Donald Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  150. I hesitate posting this because it sounds too good to be true…..

    Because it is.

    There is literally zero possibility of going from very very ill to symptom free in 8-12 hours. When people make up lies, they should put the effort in to make it slightly more believable.

    Miracle cure!!!!!No

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  151. 149.

    Apparently zinc is part of the story?

    It could be. It could be. But if so, only a trace amount of zinc is needed.

    But is everyone in hospitals usually getting zinc?

    They need to drill down

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  152. I don’t see much competence in dealing with new drugs. Or much of anything. Remember the stupdity about the dangers of vaping?

    Drugs have never been invented and proven to work, like HCQ for Lupus and Malaria?

    Were there no dangers of vaping? Care to explain.

    Mot because he’s Donald Trump. Not because he’s the president of the United States.

    But because he;s more right than Dr Fauci and the nedical regulatory establishment. And that;s not saying much about Donald Trump.

    This is the dumbest take of all of your takes.

    Look, you obvious FEELZ this is something, regardless of any reality. Dunning-Kruger effect in action. So fine, you do you.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  153. He’s not saying that hydroxychloroquine works only with zinc. He is saying that it works fast when combined with zinc.

    External zinc does help fight colds.

    https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/supplement-guide-zinc

    This is well enough known that you can’t buy zinc now.

    It does seem to help.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  154. Again, public warning, do not take medical advice from dolt’s on the internet.

    There’s been a lot of talk about taking zinc for colds ever since a 1984 study showed that zinc supplements kept people from getting as sick. Since then, research has turned up mixed results about zinc and colds.

    Recently an analysis of several studies showed that zinc lozenges or syrup reduced the length of a cold by one day, especially when taken within 24 hours of the first signs and symptoms of a cold.

    Most colds are caused by a type of virus called rhinovirus, which thrives and multiplies in the nasal passages and throat (upper respiratory system). Zinc may work by preventing the rhinovirus from multiplying. It may also stop the rhinovirus from lodging in the mucous membranes of the throat and nose.

    Zinc may be more effective when taken in lozenge or syrup form, which allows the substance to stay in the throat and come in contact with the rhinovirus.

    But the recent analysis stopped short of recommending zinc. None of the studies analyzed had enough participants to meet a high standard of proof. Also, the studies used different zinc dosages and preparations (lozenges or syrup) for different lengths of time. As a result, it’s not clear what the effective dose and treatment schedule would be.

    Zinc — especially in lozenge form — also has side effects, including nausea or a bad taste in the mouth. Many people who used zinc nasal sprays suffered a permanent loss of smell. For this reason, Mayo Clinic doctors caution against using such sprays.

    In addition, large amounts of zinc are toxic and can cause copper deficiency, anemia and damage to the nervous system.

    For now, the safest course is to talk to your doctor before considering the use of zinc to prevent or reduce the length of colds.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  155. 153. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 4/6/2020 @ 1:56 pm

    Drugs have never been invented and proven to work, like HCQ for Lupus and Malaria?

    They’ve demanded much too rigorous standards of proof, And still okayed or didn’t remove from the market, things not so good.

    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-requests-removal-all-ranitidine-products-zantac-market

    Were there no dangers of vaping? Care to explain.

    Pople wre coming down with lung damage It was being blamed on vaping when it couldn;t be vaping because vaping had been going on for several years.

    It was adding Vitamin E eoil to the vaping product thqt was doing it.

    It took them a month or more to discard the obviously wrong hypothesis that it was traditional vaping sending people to the hospital and damaging lungs.

    Mot because he’s Donald Trump. Not because he’s the president of the United States.

    But because he;s more right than Dr Fauci and the nedical regulatory establishment. And that;s not saying much about Donald Trump.

    This is the dumbest take of all of your takes.

    It’s simply true that Dr Fauci claimed that because nothing was proven to his satisfaction that meant nothing worked. People have to recognize bad logic, and there;s plenty of it going on.

    long oast time that

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  156. But the recent analysis stopped short of recommending zinc.

    Why?

    None of the studies analyzed had enough participants to meet a high standard of proof.

    Oh, that excuse.

    And then it goes on to warn of the dangers of zinc.

    Without proof.

    If someone has bad effects they shouldn’t take it that way.

    Loss of smell is said to be a (somewhat rare) symptom of Covid 19

    Were those people using zinc nasal sprays? It would be interesting to know.

    Yes too much zinc can have a bad effect and even poison people. So can many vitamins.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  157. Sammy, obviously you are purely trolling. No one can be that misinformed. You have to actively be playing in opposite day mode.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  158. I don’t think Sammy is trolling, Colonel Klink. He has been here a long time and he can get obsessive about things, but he is sincere.

    DRJ (15874d)

  159. Trump said try it if your Doctors says its OK and prescribes it. And physicians ARE prescribing it. SO what’s your problem? As Trump says, it MAY work. And if the patient is ill or dying, there’s nothing to lose.

    So, again what’s the problem? The reporter yesterday was screeching at Trump “you’re not a doctor” – but Trump never said he was. He’s stockpiled over 200 million units of the stuff in case it really works. And guess if it does work, then all the MSM that are screeching “you’re not Doctor” will start screeching “What took you so long to develop it?”. Because the name of the MSM game is NOT to help defeat the Crisis, but damage Trump. At all costs.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  160. The military planned to investigate Crozier’s situation, actions and letter. How does it help the military chain of command for civilians to short-circuit the military investigation?

    DRJ (15874d)

  161. 159… Klink, of all people, should recognize the behavior, lol.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  162. Sorry! Wrong thread.

    DRJ (15874d)

  163. Trump doesn’t tout any of the other stuff because he either doesn’t know it or didn’t hear it from several different people.

    We should talk about other stuff.

    I see Scott Gittlieb is at least trying to interest Pence and company on other stuff.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/491224-scott-gottlieb-becomes-key-voice-warning-trump-gop-on-coronavirus

    You can see he criticizes the FDA:

    https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD

    He;s retweeting a bunch of stuff.

    https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1247140271323860992

    Antibody drug approaches to #COVID19 have perhaps the best chance of a near term, meaningful therapeutic that’ll be ready before Fall. We should have a large, coordinated national strategy to develop these products; akin to Mercury rocket project. This new bet by GSK bodes well.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  164. Basically, the President of the United States is now regularly doing infommercials for hyrdoxychloroquine. The question everyone should be asking is: what does he have to gain from its widespread usage? Or, who stands to gain the most by the President’s advocating of the drug? I would like to be able to give him the benefit of he doubt that he has Americans’ health only in mind, but that wouldn’t line up with the self-serving-brand-is-everything person that we know him to be.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  165. R.I.P. Al Kaline, legendary Detroit Tigers outfielder

    Icy (6abb50)

  166. Coronovirus report from TheHill:

    – BORIS JOHNSON MOVED TO ICU WITH PERSISTENT COVID-19 SYMPTOMS

    WISCONSIN GOVERNOR SUSPENDS IN-PERSON VOTING FOR TUESDAY’S PRIMARY

    SURGEON GENERAL SAYS THIS WEEK WILL BE THE HARDEST AND SADDEST OF MOST AMERICAN’S LIVES

    U.S. HITS 10,000 CORONAVIRUS DEATHS

    JPMORGAN CHASE CEO PREDICTS BAD RECESSION LIKE 2008

    SOME GOOD NEWS FROM NEW YORK

    | U.K. PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON HOSPITALIZED

    GEORGIA GOVERNOR REOPENS BEACHES WHILE STATE STILL UNDER STAY-AT-HOME ORDER

    | TIGER IN NEW YORK ZOO CONTRACTS CORONAVIRUS

    | CHINA NOT SHUTTING DOWN WET MARKETS

    (people in Chna don;t trust big companies)

    Sammy Finkelman (8a20da)

  167. @165. Has the Trump Organization, proxies of same; corporate chums of Trump– or any Congresscritters invested in the manufacturers of this stuff?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  168. 165… Mika Brzezinski agrees with you, Dana. She thinks Trump’s financial ties to the industry need to be investigated.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  169. Trump has just bragged about all the tremendously huge and powerful cargo planes being used, 51 flights so far, full of supplies.

    The US has 2,148 air cargo flights a day on average, so 2.37%. I’m guessing the private flights with private companies and states are actually doing the thing the federal government is supposed to be doing.

    A day late and a dollar short should be Trump’s presidential biography’s title.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  170. i think the critics of Trump have a problem. Perhaps their doctor can prescribe something.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  171. i think the critics of Trump have a problem. Perhaps their doctor can prescribe something.

    Because Trump is perfect, 10 out of 10 right?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  172. Watching the press conference. Donald Trump is a crazy moron, he’s an idiot man child, too stupid to clean the toilets at the gas station.

    It’s time for the VP and the cabinet to step in, it’s past time, Donald Trump is incompetent, incompetent, incompetent, INCOMPETENT!!!

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  173. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

    What do you have to lose.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  174. Wilson Leung 梁允信 Flag of Hong Kong
    @WilsonLeungWS

    “The UK government’s new testing chief has admitted that none of the 3.5 million antibody tests ordered from China are fit for widespread use…The tests did not pass the evaluation stage”. http://independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-test-antibody-kit-uk-china-nhs-matt-hancock-a9449816.html… #COVID19

    _ _

    MilkCartonMugShot
    @MugCarton
    ·
    It’s like no one has learned anything.

    Spain bought faulty supplies. Italy was given faulty supplies… UK thinking 3rd times the charm?
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  175. i think the critics of Trump have a problem. Perhaps their doctor can prescribe something.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 4/6/2020 @ 3:48 pm

    Imagine saying this today! If someone even criticizes Trump they are nuts! He’s gone from saying 15 Coronavirus infections at most before it goes away to saying he did a “very good job” if 100,000 Americans die! The whole world knows our Navy is crippled. He’s got no allies and keeps picking fights to win the daily media cycle, and at this point no one can work together in a crisis.

    Yeah, criticism of Trump is a medical problem! hahahahahaha

    Dustin (928d9a)

  176. Trump spent a decade bashing previous presidents for stuff he literally imagined, like a Kenyan birth certificate, and despite the trash talk, when it’s his turn it’s not such an easy job.

    I sure wish the democrats could get a do-over on their primary. It’s disturbing to consider two elections in a row like this. I can’t believe I complained about Obama v Romney, two normal, intelligent men who weren’t crazy or evil. My bad Universe. My bad.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  177. i think the critics of Trump have a problem. Perhaps their doctor can prescribe something.

    Yes, yes, definitely! Hydroxychloroquine to all the Trump voters. The big bottle.

    nk (1d9030)

  178. Scott Gottlieb (co-author – lead author Luciana Bori) Feb 4, 2020: (Wed Feb 5 paper proably)

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/stop-a-u-s-coronavirus-outbreak-before-it-starts-11580859525

    It’s time to start testing patients with unexplained pneumonia, even if they haven’t traveled to China.

    They basically didn’t. (and there are some early deaths not attributed to coronovirus – saw that in NYT story.)

    Scott Gttlieb today’s Wall Street Journal Monday April 6, 2020:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/bet-big-on-treatments-for-coronavirus-11586102963

    I think he tends to favor the most on track (furthest along) ideas – not necessarily the best scientific ideas – but he;s still got a lot.

    …A vaccine could beat the virus, but there won’t be one this year. The best near-term hope: an effective therapeutic drug. That would be transformative, and it’s plausible as soon as this summer. But the process will have to move faster….

    One approach involves antiviral drugs that target the virus and block its replication. Think of medicines for treating influenza, HIV or cold sores. The drugs work by blocking the mechanisms that viruses use to replicate. Dozens of promising antiviral drugs are in various stages of development and could be advanced quickly. The one furthest along is remdesivir, from Gilead Sciences. There’s evidence from clinical experience with Covid-19 patients that it could be effective.

    [His second proposal is artificial antibodies. One will be ready for trials in June]

    The other approach involves antibody drugs, which mimic the function of immune cells. Antibody drugs can be used to fight an infection and to reduce the risk of contracting Covid-19. These medicines may be the best chance for a meaningful near-term success.

    Antibody drugs are based on the same scientific principles that make “convalescent plasma” one interim tactic for treating the sickest Covid-19 patients. Doctors are taking blood plasma from patients who have recovered from Covid-19 and infusing it into those who are critically ill. The plasma is laden with antibodies, and the approach shows some promise. The constraint: There isn’t enough plasma from recovered patients to go around.

    Antibody drugs are engineered to do the same thing as convalescent plasma, but because they’re synthesized, they don’t depend on a supply of antibodies from healed patients. Biotech companies would manufacture them in large quantities using recombinant technology, the same approach behind highly effective drugs that target and prevent Ebola, respiratory syncytial virus and other infections. The antibodies can also be a prophylaxis given to those exposed to Covid-19, or to prevent infection in vulnerable patients, such as those on chemotherapy. These drugs could protect the public until a vaccine is available.

    The biotech company Regeneron successfully developed an antibody drug to treat Ebola as well as one against MERS, a deadly coronavirus similar to Covid-19. Regeneron has an antibody drug that should enter human trials in June. Vir Biotechnology is also developing an antibody treatment for Covid-19 and says it could be ready for human trials this summer. Amgen recently started its own program with Adaptive Biotech and Eli Lilly has one as well. If these approaches work, the drugs can advance quickly, because much of the science and the safety is already well understood.

    But success will require a strong sense of urgency from manufacturers—and from regulators, who need to collaborate with drug developers in innovative ways to move the most promising therapies. The Food and Drug Administration has deployed tactics in recent years to advance therapeutics aimed at rare and deadly cancers. One is real-time reviews, in which regulators work with drug developers to evaluate data as it is read out from clinical trials, instead of waiting until the trial concludes, to understand the potential benefits and risks rapidly. This has enabled drug developers to accelerate development timelines. FDA’s senior career scientists need the firm backing of political leadership to apply these and similar scientific approaches to Covid-19.

    He;s relying on political or governmental pushing.

    Sammy Finkelman (8a20da)

  179. i think the critics of Trump have a problem. Perhaps their doctor can prescribe something.

    Failing to show unqualified adoration of Dear Leader is a mental illness in MAGAmerica. The misfits need to be drugged up.

    Radegunda (0e8745)

  180. 180. Trump just says a lot of things that are, in many cases, slightly wrong.

    They are not always that wrong.

    When he said everybody who needs a test could get one, he was (ignorant) of the fact that more was needed than supplying sate requests and that the tests needed reagents.

    He likes to take credit – sometimes for succeeding when he basically failed (or he takes the attitude that he did better than anyone else would have done)

    And he’s not trying very hard to be accurate – he’s mostly trying to deliver good news, which he would like to believe himself.

    And any reasonable person can usually see through him.

    And we shouldn’t talk as if that’s not so. It is so to considerable degree.

    And the things what partisans like to criticize, he’s not so wrong about (because he doesn’t stay wrong so determinedly.) And where he does try to stay wrong – mostly stuff he said for political reasons – they don’t focus on it because that’s not what their champions (CDC NIH) want to push. . Instead focusing on things where they (or the people they want to say are RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT) are mostly, or partially, wrong. They just maybe make people feel superior. That;s just stupid.

    In re Fauci (and Trump never breaks with him) Trump’s efforts are a good thing, just not enough of a good thing. Just maybe not all that much the right thing. But he’s not WRONG WRONG WRONG.

    There was a lot he did that didn’t get criticized very much at the tine. Because most of the time the media are not really on the job, and the Democrats are, too often….partisan. At least those making a big deal about Trump. Partisanship is not truth, even when the person they are against is far from being as competent as you would want. It’s just more error. Hydroxychloroquine is not baseless. It would be good to know just how useful it is, and it wold be very good to start paying attention to other things.

    Trump not being so competent doesn’t make other people in public office, particularly at the national level – competent. Competency is not a zero sum game. (One person;s competency is unrelated to another, although one person being competent can help make others more competent. We’re on;y seeing a limited amount of such synergy.)

    Sammy Finkelman (8a20da)

  181. Sammy, with all due respect I think you’re seeing this a bit wrong.

    There are a ton of interesting and promising hopes for treatment. The TB vaccine, plasma, two bona fide vaccines already in human trials.

    The difference with hydroxychloroquine is very simple. Trump tossed that out stupidly, with stupid certainty, and could have walked that back a little very easily like most politicians do from time to time.

    After that, he’s had to pretend to be a know-it-all. He has to be right about this. All focus has to be on fighting for more supply of this drug from India, on fighting those Trump critics who don’t want this cure!

    Because Trump can’t be wrong. His supporters have got to fight over this drug as though this fight even matters. As though our faith in one treatment over the others being heroically sought by geniuses matters at all.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  182. They’re arguing about hydroxychloroquine instead of trying to find out exactly what it does (there are 3 theories by the way)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html

    Mr. Trump may ultimately be right, and physicians report anecdotal evidence that has provided hope. But it remains far from certain, and the president’s assertiveness in pressing the case over the advice of advisers like Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the government’s top infectious disease specialist, has driven a wedge inside his coronavirus task force and has raised questions about his motives.

    One person talking with Trump about this was Giuliani. He says that when he finished with Biden he went on this (the NYT says he even at first confused the name of a Ukrainain born doctor with Zelensky. Its; Zelenko)

    But Giuliani says that by the time he brought it up with Trump, Trump was already talking about this.

    In the Wall Street Journal, which also has an article, Peter Navarro has a short two word comment:
    “Second opinion.”

    It clearly doesn’t do nothing at all for anyone, although some people are trying to maintain it should at least be regarded as doing nothing for anybody for coronavirus.

    n themeantime they can’t even gets tests manufacured.

    And all this unecessary discussion goes on instead of moving on to other things (some maybe available now)

    Sammy Finkelman (b99a92)

  183. 180.Dustin (928d9a) — 4/7/2020 @ 5:41 am

    Sammy, with all due respect I think you’re seeing this a bit wrong.

    There are a ton of interesting and promising hopes for treatment.

    And because Dr Fauci and some others are giving everyone such a hard time about hydroxychloroquine, very little of those others sre being discussed as something the government should move forward on.

    The TB vaccine, plasma, two bona fide vaccines already in human trials.

    The TB vaccine is a rather stupid idea for this. Really.

    Cpnvalescent plasma is good but you have the problem people can still be a little bit infectious. Much better than plasma is artificial antibodies and we can get there by the summer or earky fall if only Dr Fauci and theregulators will drop their extreme skepticism.

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/regeneron-covid-19-trials-summer/

    he biotechnology firm Regeneron said it has now developed hundreds of potential medicines that could work against the novel coronavirus that causes Covid-19, and that it may enter clinical trials by early summer.

    Regeneron’s drugs are what are known as monoclonal antibodies, proteins produced by the immune system that can neutralize pathogens. Regeneron’s antibodies are made in mice that have been genetically modified to have human-like immune systems, which means that, when they are given to a patient, his or her immune system will not attack the antibody.

    The technology was previously used to create a cocktail of antibodies that had some efficacy against the Ebola virus, Regeneron said last year.

    It’s not the only company.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/bet-big-on-treatments-for-coronavirus-11586102963

    The other approach involves antibody drugs, which mimic the function of immune cells. Antibody drugs can be used to fight an infection and to reduce the risk of contracting Covid-19. These medicines may be the best chance for a meaningful near-term success.

    Antibody drugs are based on the same scientific principles that make “convalescent plasma” one interim tactic for treating the sickest Covid-19 patients. Doctors are taking blood plasma from patients who have recovered from Covid-19 and infusing it into those who are critically ill. The plasma is laden with antibodies, and the approach shows some promise. The constraint: There isn’t enough plasma from recovered patients to go around.

    Antibody drugs are engineered to do the same thing as convalescent plasma, but because they’re synthesized, they don’t depend on a supply of antibodies from healed patients. Biotech companies would manufacture them in large quantities using recombinant technology, the same approach behind highly effective drugs that target and prevent Ebola, respiratory syncytial virus and other infections. The antibodies can also be a prophylaxis given to those exposed to Covid-19, or to prevent infection in vulnerable patients, such as those on chemotherapy. These drugs could protect the public until a vaccine is available.

    The biotech company Regeneron successfully developed an antibody drug to treat Ebola as well as one against MERS, a deadly coronavirus similar to Covid-19. Regeneron has an antibody drug that should enter human trials in June. Vir Biotechnology is also developing an antibody treatment for Covid-19 and says it could be ready for human trials this summer. Amgen recently started its own program with Adaptive Biotech and Eli Lilly has one as well. If these approaches work, the drugs can advance quickly, because much of the science and the safety is already well understood.

    Well, if you hakdf overrle Dr Fauci. He’s not looking at that, He’s only looking at a vaccine – timeline a year or more and that’s extremely fast for vaccines these days – and we continue more or less with social isolation as now till then. The vaccines are going to be the slowest thing of all.

    The difference with hydroxychloroquine is very simple. Trump tossed that out stupidly, with stupid certainty, and could have walked that back a little very easily like most politicians do from time to time.

    All he had to do was qualify it slightly.

    After that, he’s had to pretend to be a know-it-all. He has to be right about this. All focus has to be on fighting for more supply of this drug from India, on fighting those Trump critics who don’t want this cure!

    We got this way.

    Because Trump can’t be wrong. His supporters have got to fight over this drug as though this fight even matters. As though our faith in one treatment over the others being heroically sought by geniuses matters at all.

    It;s not like Fauci is pointingto anthig else.

    Well maybe Dr Scott Gottlieb can move him

    Sammy Finkelman (b99a92)

  184. Sammy, you missed this part of the NYT piece, and it deserves some follow-up.

    Mr. Trump himself has a small personal financial interest in Sanofi, the French drugmaker that makes Plaquenil, the brand-name version of hydroxychloroquine.
    […]
    Some associates of Mr. Trump’s have financial interests in the issue. Sanofi’s largest shareholders include Fisher Asset Management, the investment company run by Ken Fisher, a major donor to Republicans, including Mr. Trump. A spokesman for Mr. Fisher declined to comment.

    Link. Color me unsurprised, that Trump has a financial stake in the drug he’s been touting for weeks. It doesn’t need to be said, but this guy is a fundamentally corrupt human being who corrupts everything around him.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  185. Ah, the timing and history of the internet meme of the scam treatment that has been adopted by Trump as a real thing. It is exactly as accurate as the pedo pizza place’s basement.

    Lies, promoted on the internet by rubes and fools.

    On Twitter, James Todaro, a medical school graduate-turned cryptocurrency investor, and Greg Rigano, a law school graduate and fellow crypto investor, started publicly inquiring about the drug, which was starting to get some attention because of some initial anecdotal evidence and early, limited studies.

    “Any data of chloroquine’s effectiveness?” Rigano asked Todaro and Bye, who had been summarizing the preliminary trials being conducted in South Korea and China.

    “There are a few preliminary studies that aren’t hard to find. I’m not at a computer now,” Todaro replied.

    Slightly over a day after asking that question, Rigano said he had written the first draft of the paper, telling Bye that he and an “eminent scientist” were about to publish a “peer reviewed” paper with evidence that chloroquine was both a cure and a “preventative” for Covid-19.

    “thank u james and adrian. next level humans,” he tweeted.

    Bye, who has no medical or scientific background, expressed hesitation. He said he had simply been following the research that had been coming out of China, and was happy to share it in a casual setting.

    “I’ve worked very hard researching the virus since January, looking for a potential solution,” Bye said later in an interview, noting he had previously lived in the region where the disease originated. “I used a decade of philosophy research, including 18 months living by a famous sacred mountain in Hubei province, China, to do this work in a very delicate area where lives are at stake.”

    But he was worried that overhyping and overprescribing the drug so early might create a chloroquine-resistant coronavirus strain later — even though scientists have seen no evidence the novel coronavirus is mutating to become more dangerous. And he suggested on Twitter that the WHO and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention should first review the drug.

    In response to Bye’s concern, Rigano said a crisis trumped the necessity for scientific review. “world is burning,” he wrote on Twitter. “need all options on deck.”

    “There are multiple reports published on pubmed at this point from chinese government,” Rigano also tweeted, referencing the government-run search engine that indexes medical papers around the world. “we are witnessing mass inefficiency by the ‘pros’.”

    The paper was published on Google Docs the next day, with Todaro now listed as a coauthor, and including claims that Stanford University, the University of Alabama and the National Academy of Sciences were affiliated with the study.

    They weren’t.

    All three institutions, as well as Thomas Broker, a third researcher listed as a coauthor, subsequently said they were not involved in the paper and had no knowledge of its existence before it was published. Stanford also knocked down Rigano’s claim that he was an “adviser” to their medical school.

    Still, the early association of these institutions gave the paper the prestige it needed to go mainstream, landing Rigano and Todaro on entrepreneur Elon Musk’s Twitter feed, then on Fox News.

    In just a few days, hydroxychloroquine had morphed from one of several options that could be studied for preventing or treating Covid-19 into a potential superstar drug that some hoped could end the pandemic quickly. Todaro gained 10,000 Twitter followers; Rigano accumulated over 20,000 new followers. On Carlson’s show, Rigano called the drug “the second cure to a virus of all time.”

    At the White House the next day, Trump announced the FDA had approved the “promising” drug for immediate use — a pronouncement that Dr. Anthony Fauci, the government’s top infectious disease expert, had to walk back, clarifying that it had been approved only for clinical trials.

    As of now, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that hydroxychloroquine is effective in treating coronavirus patients.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  186. Evolution of media’s anti-Trump hydroxychloroquine spin would leave even Darwin dizzy:
    1) Trump giving Americans false hope.
    2) Trump peddling snake oil.
    3) Trump made couple drink fish tank cleaner.
    4) Hydroxychloroquine might, maybe, be helpful.
    5) Trump is in it for money.

    https://twitter.com/ProfMJCleveland/status/1247494275643965440

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  187. No Haiku, that’s just blatant propaganda. The entire time, Trump’s critics have said Hydroxychloroquine might work. Just like vaccines, the TB vaccine, plasma, and many other medications. They all might work. We should try them out in desperate situations with the best experts available, but avoid hording and BS and fighting.

    But because Trump jumped on this fast, his fans have had to focus on promoting this treatment, so they can insist anyone who was rational ‘really wanted the medicine to fail because that’s bad for Trump!!!!’

    It’s the same stuff we’re hearing from Chinese propaganda. Everything is twisted hilariously for paranoid worship of a leader.

    Just admit it: Trump had no clue what he was talking about, and deserves no credit if this medication works, and also deserves blame for the harm he caused. Trump needs to stop picking fights. Every few days there’s a new stupid fight scandal. It’s not helpful.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  188. Evolution of media’s anti-Trump hydroxychloroquine spin

    How many straw men can you pack in a single comment?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  189. And because Dr Fauci and some others are giving everyone such a hard time about hydroxychloroquine, very little of those others sre being discussed as something the government should move forward on.

    I think he’s simply pointed out that Dr. Oz’s claims are TV show anecdotes intended for hype. Let the research continue and we’ll see. I agree completely that Trump making this yet another stupid partisan fight has harmed research, supply, even the ability to communicate, but Dr. Fauci didn’t do that. All he did was take a half-baked idea and put it back in the oven, telling us not to get excited yet.

    Here’s the real issue: Trump’s timing was before the lockdown. Social distancing is a painful sacrifice for a lot of us. It certainly is for my family. Why do we need to bother if Trump has the cure and there will only be 15 Americans infected and one day soon it will be gone, cured, by Trump, who really has a knack for medical research? Trump wanted to preserve the economy by fooling the suckers. It’s his whole business model. Trump University will be great next year! Trump Steaks are delicious with ketchup! This casino is the best more successful one! Always really bankrupt.

    This is where Trump got a lot of Americans killed. There’s no way around it. He pretended he had this under control, lying to us, for economic reasons that most Americans did not actually benefit from. Now he just picks fights all day, making our response terrible.

    The GOP must remove him from office before things get worse in the fall.

    Dustin (fa728c)

  190. What’s the evolution from “It’s a Democrat media hoax to ruin the economy and keep me from getting reelected” to “I always felt it’s a pandemic”?

    nk (1d9030)

  191. How many straw men can you pack in a single comment?

    If you want a definitive answer to that question, I think Munroe would be the one to ask.

    Dave (1bb933)

  192. Blatant propaganda, bullschiff. She’s talking about the media and she’s spot-on.

    Here’s the thread where (I think) discussion of chloroquine began here: http://patterico.com/2020/03/18/president-trump-well-connected-shouldnt-have-special-access-to-coronavirus-testing-but/

    There were some who professed hope, but the majority of commenters here (and in many subsequent posts) were negative because they were unaware of any testing and – more importantly – because Trump. People who are daily commenters here can make up their own minds about that.

    I’ve watched most of the daily briefings and I’ve heard the questions coming from the WH press pool. The truth hurts, I guess.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  193. if you love mr. donald trump the president, who will go down in history as Tatiana Drumpfelchnitzelkovna when i am the national archivist, with all your heart and all your mind and all your body and all your soul, you will go to your doctor and demand a prescription for hydroxychloroquine

    the big bottle

    do not leave until you get it, do not leave until you get it, do not leave until you get it

    it’s the principle of the thing

    then take a pill every time you think of him, mr. trump i mean

    see who can be the first to finish his bottle

    trust me, it’s important

    america’s future could hinge on you doing this

    nk (1d9030)

  194. There were some who professed hope, but the majority of commenters here (and in many subsequent posts) were negative because they were unaware of any testing and – more importantly – because Trump. People who are daily commenters here can make up their own minds about that.

    Or, if you read the comments, specifically referencing the known testing, THAT IT DIDN’T WORK AND THE ONE TEST THAT SAID IT WAS POSITIVE DISQUALIFIED ALL THOSE WHO ACTUALLY GOT SICK.

    I know, I know, Trump’s perfect, 3 weeks ago when he the meme’s that it worked started, you hoped that your idol would be proven right. 3 weeks later, still zero evidence that it does anything, but Trump has quadrupled down on the stupid meme, because he can’t ever be wrong, despite reality. So now, you must FEELZ harder to justify stupid.

    I’ve watched most of the daily briefings and I’ve heard the questions coming from the WH press pool. The truth hurts, I guess.

    Yes, and Trump reiterates it’s miracle qualities, again, despite reality intruding. If it were a miracle, 3 weeks later, one would have happened. Saint Trump is still without beatification.

    All hail Cheeto-jesus, first of his name.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  195. Look, this shouldn’t have anything to do with Trump. If it gives any relief at all, it’s a good thing. If it works well in tandem with another medication, I’ll say a prayer of thanks.

    Don’t let your outright hatred of Trump cloud your judgment any more than it has.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)


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