Patterico's Pontifications

3/18/2020

President Trump: Well-Connected Shouldn’t Have Special Access To Coronavirus Testing, But…

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:42 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Given the lack of widely available coronavirus tests, NBC’s Peter Alexander asked President Trump why well-connected, yet asymptomatic individuals, are able to get tested for coronavirus, while the not well-connected are unable to do so:

“Do the well-connected go to the front of the line?”

“Well, you have to ask them that question,” Trump said. “I mean, I’ve read—.”

“Should that happen?” Alexander asked.

“No, I wouldn’t say so. But perhaps that’s been the story of life. That does happen on occasion and I’ve noticed where some people have been tested fairly quickly.”

He then blamed it on having inherited a very obsolete testing system and/or a system that wasn’t meant to handle the current volume of needed testing:

Note: I know that non-symptomatic Utah Jazz players were tested after one player contracted the virus. Reports say that public health officials consider them “superspreaders” because of the number of people they are in contact with. Rishi Desai, who is the chief medical officer and pediatric infectious disease physician and also used to work for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as an epidemic intelligence service officer, explained it this way:

He understands Oklahoma’s decision to test who it did. He called athletes, team personnel and traveling reporters “super spreaders,” people who are often in direct contact with several other people especially in arenas with thousands of people.

“The average person is not exposing as many other people as a super spreader… Whenever there’s an outbreak and you know you have these potential super spreaders who have the potential to be around a lot of people, you want to really get on top of that situation.”

Exit question: Shouldn’t doctors and nurses, and first responders and health care workers be considered “super spreaders” of sorts, given the large number of people they are in direct contact with – including infected people? That way they could get the testing they need, and the testing that we need them to have in order to ensure, not only their well-being but our safety too.

–Dana

525 Responses to “President Trump: Well-Connected Shouldn’t Have Special Access To Coronavirus Testing, But…”

  1. I believe Tom Hanks and his wife, Idris Alba, and Kristofer Hivju (from Game of Thrones) were tested outside of the U.S.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  2. Testing negative doesn’t necessarily mean you haven’t been exposed, just that you don’t test positive YET. Then again, you can spread it before you show symptoms. Not sure where the happy medium is, but there is one.

    BTW, do we know if the tests are hard to get because there aren’t enough test kits, there aren’t enough people grained in their use, or the rules that are being applied disallow more testing?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. “Should that happen?” Alexander asked.

    “No, I wouldn’t say so. But perhaps that’s been the story of life. That does happen on occasion and I’ve noticed where some people have been tested fairly quickly.

    Shut up, shut up, shut up! You ridiculous orange clown of buffoon, learn when to shut up! And if you can’t do that, stay off of live radio and television!

    nk (1d9030)

  4. As my grand-dad used to say, “Now wait just a minute here.”

    It was twelve days ago that President Donald J. Trump, wearing his spiffy “Keep America Great” baseball hat, stood in front of reporters at the CDC and assured the American people in no uncertain terms that “anybody who wants a test gets a test”.

    In other words, “If you like your virus, you can keep your virus.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  5. How long ago was it when he said it’s a Democrat hoax?

    nk (1d9030)

  6. Here you are obsessing about testing again. If you aren’t sick, or have some extremely good reason, you don’t need a test. The virus will be spread to millions. This is just flattening the curve. And if you get tested, without any symptoms, and you have the virus, its not going to help YOU, that much, because the vast majority of people who get the flu don’t get seriously ill.

    Knowing you have the virus, will help others. But that’s true of millions of people.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  7. I see the “objective” NYT is trying to claim Trump didn’t do enough at the start. So, it doesn’t matter how well Trump is doing now, the NYT is already dishing out the Joe Biden talking points. Personally, I’m more worried about what’s in that massive “Virus Relief” bill. Once again these massive, expensive bills are being loaded up like a Christmas Tree and NO ONE is talking about what’s in it. And another is on its way.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  8. BTW, do we know if the tests are hard to get because there aren’t enough test kits, there aren’t enough people grained in their use, or the rules that are being applied disallow more testing?

    It, the collecting the sample for the test Trump had, as explained by Dr. Brix, is a very labor intensive process. In addition to the swab way, way back in your nose, the worker has to mask up with full eye protection and protective clothing plus change those between every person swabbed! As she said, people often cough or sneeze during the procedure.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  9. How long ago was it when he said it’s a Democrat hoax?

    That was exactly one week before.

    Dave (1bb933)

  10. And as stated above, the test just shows you don’t have the Virus NOW. It provides no window into the future.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  11. And as stated above, the test just shows you don’t have the Virus NOW. It provides no window into the future.

    And it’s not like if you know you’re positive that it would keep you from spreading it, nah. Knowledge is po, an illusion meant to make Donald look dumb.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  12. My niece is a nurse and she’s been asked to work extra hours helping out with screening the influx of people at the hospital – I asked her if she’s been tested and she said she hadn’t because she hasn’t been sick. Given that she could be spreading the disease in a hospital full of sick people for a week or more before she herself gets sick, I’d think that hospital employees would be getting tested every single day and not merely once they start coughing. If a hospital employee gets sick, you’d want to know that the minute it happens so you can get them the heck out of there and not wait a week or two until they actually start showing symptoms to bother testing them and find out they’ve been spreading the disease to hundreds of people all this time. I realize that testing kits are in short supply, but it seems to me that hospital workers are both the ones most likely to come into contact with the coronavirus and also the ones most likely to be passing it on to the most at-risk population and therefore they’re the ones who should be the highest priority for testing.

    Jerryskids (702a61)

  13. How long ago was it when he said it’s a Democrat hoax?

    According to the article you linked:

    “This is their new hoax,” Trump continued, adding that attacking the White House’s response to the coronavirus had become the Democratic Party’s “single talking point.”

    Sounds more like he’s attacking the Democrat spin on the WH actions, than the virus’ import itself.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. Here you are obsessing about testing again.

    rcocean, I don’t think this post qualifies as “obssessing”. Rather I am making a concerted effort to keep abreast of the ever-change state of things in this coronavirus time. And that includes statements from Trump. Further, do we want medical professionals who are symptomatic, or even non-symptomatic but have been in close proximity to patients to be able to get tested in order to keep from spreading it and to receive care?

    Dana (4fb37f)

  15. And as stated above, the test just shows you don’t have the Virus NOW.

    Not exactly, it says that the infection, if there is one, has not progressed to the point it is detected. You may still be infected. It does suggest, though, that you are not yet contagious.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  16. I can’t even …. If the moron won’t look at anything else, won’t he at least look at the DOW charts? Every time, every damn time, he appears in public, the DOW drops 1,200 points. And that panic on Wall Street is a pale shadow on the panic he creates on Your Street.

    nk (1d9030)

  17. It, the collecting the sample for the test Trump had, as explained by Dr. Brix, is a very labor intensive process.

    It’s a shame we can’t outsource this labor intensive process as we’ve done so successfully with manufacturing jobs.

    Tests per million people (as of March 8):

    US: 5
    Japan: 66
    UK: 347
    Netherlands: 350
    Israel: 401
    Italy: 826
    Guangdong Province, China: 2820
    South Korea: 3692

    Dave (1bb933)

  18. Tom Hanks and his wife, Rita Wilson, were promptly tested in Australia.

    Australia has a NHS.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  19. Great news… Per the Stanford University Medical Center advisor, cheap anti-malarial drug Chloroquine has just been proven in a controlled case study of 40 sufferers to be 100% effective in curing the coronavirus (results announced this morning). Advisor Gregory Rigano went on to say that Pres. Trump has cut more red tape at the FDA than any other president in history and has the power to authorize the use of this drug.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  20. A second Congress-critter, Rep. Ben McAdams (D-UT), has tested positive.

    Admirable display of bi-partisanship from the virus, I must say.

    Dave (1bb933)

  21. We’re saved! We’re saved! We’re saved! Yay, Stanford! Yay, Advisor Rigano!

    What does High Advisor Troi say?

    nk (1d9030)

  22. Chinese doctors announced successful clinical trials of Chloroquine a month ago:

    Antimalarial drug confirmed effective on COVID-19

    BEIJING — Chinese experts, based on the result of clinical trials, have confirmed that Chloroquine Phosphate, an antimalarial drug, has a certain curative effect on the novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19), a Chinese official said here on Feb 17.

    The experts have “unanimously” suggested the drug be included in the next version of the treatment guidelines and applied in wider clinical trials as soon as possible, Sun Yanrong, deputy head of the China National Center for Biotechnology Development under the Ministry of Science and Technology, said at a press conference.

    Chloroquine Phosphate, which has been used for more than 70 years, was selected from tens of thousands of existing drugs after multiple rounds of screening, Sun said.

    According to her, the drug has been under clinical trials in over 10 hospitals in Beijing, as well as in South China’s Guangdong province and Central China’s Hunan province, and has shown fairly good efficacy.

    In the trials, the groups of patients that have taken the drug have shown better indicators than their parallel groups, in abatement of fever, improvement of CT images of lungs, the percentage of patients who became negative in viral nucleic acid tests and the time they need to do so, she said.

    Patients taking the drug also take shorter time to recover, she added.

    Of course, they neglected to mention President Trump’s crucial role in the breakthrough, no doubt out of spite.

    Dave (1bb933)

  23. George R. R. Martin has a book title that describes Haiku’s chloroquine “news”: Fevre Dream.

    nk (1d9030)

  24. That would be great if true, of course the NIH has had that published for literally a month. It’s a bit suspect that its only referenced in alt news and Elon Musk. Plus, when you drill down to the actual study…

    The Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) first broke out in Wuhan (China) and subsequently spread worldwide. Chloroquine has been sporadically used in treating SARS-CoV-2 infection. Hydroxychloroquine shares the same mechanism of action as chloroquine, but its more tolerable safety profile makes it the preferred drug to treat malaria and autoimmune conditions. We propose that the immunomodulatory effect of hydroxychloroquine also may be useful in controlling the cytokine storm that occurs late-phase in critically ill SARS-CoV-2 infected patients. Currently, there is no evidence to support the use of hydroxychloroquine in SARS-CoV-2 infection.

    Oddly enough, all the links I can find leaves out that last bit. But the actual study explains that is was never tested on humans, it was only tested with African green monkey kidney cells. It would be great…if true, but I’m highly sceptical since this has been known for a month in theory.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  25. Coming to a presidential press conference near you, in a matter of days:

    “I felt Chloroquine was the way to go long before it was tested.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  26. ‘Further, do we want medical professionals who are symptomatic, or even non-symptomatic but have been in close proximity to patients to be able to get tested in order to keep from spreading it and to receive care?’

    It helps to have an infrastructure in place, an organization w/protocols at the ready–and a general plan, doesn’t it:

    NHS plans to deploy ‘Dad’s Army’ of retired doctors…

    [Britain’s] NHS plans to deploy ‘Dad’s Army’ of retired doctors if Covid-19 spreads Government pandemic preparation plans to include ‘war room’ of experts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/29/nhs-dads-army-plan-for-coronavirus

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  27. DCSCA, that’s a really cool concept, but for a disease that infects doctors and kills the elderly, I hope this ‘Dad’s Army’ is put in special hospitals that do not see Corona Virus (except on accident). I’m sure they can still help with broken arms and the like. Even with that precaution, some of these guys are going to be in a lot of risk.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  28. Also, refer to the “Italian study” thread comments about the price of Chloroquine. Cheap may not be the correct term.

    Kishnevi (39af22)

  29. I, for one, hope that this information is correct…

    https://youtu.be/CSJpXGKX5Cs

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  30. @27. It is. Frees up younger, active staff; it was a great TV show, too.

    __________

    The Brooks Plan:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0FwCvcW7bA

    The Biden Plan:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdf5EXo6I68

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  31. @29. Does this mean weren’t not going to have to drink bleach? 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  32. How long ago was it when he said it’s a Democrat hoax?

    That was exactly one week before.

    Guys, guys. He’s always known it was a pandemic!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  33. 31. I’m not putting my life on hold for this thing. Why would I want to drink bleach? 😛

    Gryph (08c844)

  34. Link to study mentioned above.

    felipe (023cc9)

  35. @29 I’d like for it to be true but that YouTube interview is sketchy af. They say in the comments the same thing I’m thinking. He doesn’t say how many people and this is a lawyer on a morning show. Why aren’t we hearing from the doctor that did the testing? The testing he described is also sketchy af. This guy was on Tucker and he his entire presentation was sketchy af. He couldn’t shave to go on Fox News to say someone had found a cure to covid?

    I’ll take it back if this guy is legit but if he’s not I’d like to do some testing with a short rope and a tall tree.

    frosty (f27e97)

  36. 19. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/18/2020 @ 6:35 pm

    Per the Stanford University Medical Center advisor, cheap anti-malarial drug Chloroquine has just been proven in a controlled case study of 40 sufferers to be 100% effective in curing the coronavirus (results announced this morning).

    This might be even cheaper:

    https://www.professionalsupplementcenter.com/Leg-Cramps-with-Quinine-Sulfate-by-NatraBio.htm

    And it’s sold over the counter.

    I would consult with a expert doctor before relying on it, both to find out whether it has the same effect on the body,, to determine what’s a reasonable dosage, and for counterindications, but a web page says, among other things:

    https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Quinine-sulfate

    … Quinine has many mechanisms of action, including reduction of oxygen intake and carbohydrate metabolism; disruption of DNA replication and transcription via DNA intercalation; and reduction of the excitability of muscle fibers via alteration of calcium distribution…

    If this works against malaria, or old fashioned malaria, it probably, like Chloroquine, also works against coronovirus, although perhaps in quantity it might be less safe.

    Because it is sold over the counter, it should be safe for most people to take, so might be a good idea if a person can’t get anything else.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  37. Just call your doctor, Sammy.

    nk (1d9030)

  38. American universities have assisted with putting students in debt to the tune of $1.6T, and yet somehow they think they need 360,000 Chinese students as profit cash cows to subsidize their inefficient operations. Obviously, the majority of these students are legitimate, but just as obvious are those involved in technological appropriation at best, espionage at worst.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  39. When I went down the rabbit hole, it was super sketchy. Also, there was a Chinese study referenced in the NIH db, but they disqualified all the patients they were testing who…died. Yup. It cured all the non-dead ones maybe faster, except the dead ones, but never mind that.

    To reiterate, there’s a slight chance that an existing drug may potentially shorten the length of infection (best case like Tamiflu) worst case it does nothing and maybe you still die. If I was in intensive care I’d 100% volunteer to take it, but that’s kind of a special situation. If I was just uncomfortable at home, meh, the side effects on short term dosage isn’t terrible, so maybe even then, but I’d not count on it actually being a solution to mass infections.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  40. Sammy, I think the chloroquine is used in parallel with erythromycin. Thanks.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  41. Currently, there is no evidence to support the use of hydroxychloroquine in SARS-CoV-2 infection.

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    This only means that, at that time. there was not a randomized control study that concluded that there at most a 5% chance it was not effecrive. Myself, I wonder how strong the effect of hydroxychloroquine alone is.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  42. It cured all the non-dead ones maybe faster, except the dead ones, but never mind that.

    Do you think there is a chance that the dead ones were in the control group?

    felipe (023cc9)

  43. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/18/2020 @ 7:42 pm

    Sammy, I think the chloroquine is used in parallel with erythromycin. Thanks.

    Erythromycin is an antibiotic. Makes sense n anything like flu, because of secondary infections.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  44. Do you think there is a chance that the dead ones were in the control group?

    I don’t read Chinese, but the translation didn’t say that, it specifically said that there wasn’t actually a control group, other then everyone else in the hospital. The death rate was apparently similar, it was just the difference between the recovering people, well, a portion, that tested clean after 4 days vs 11.

    Again, if I was sick, I’d take it, but that’s different than the globe betting it’s true…but maybe, hopefully it’s 100% true. Maybe a TV lawyer really did something, but…

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  45. 35… frosty, the Stanford Med adviser is a lawyer, so we must cut him some slack in the area of personal hygiene and appearance.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  46. “How long ago was it when he said it’s a Democrat hoax?
    That was exactly one week before.”
    Dave (1bb933) — 3/18/2020 @ 6:16 pm

    How long ago were you gents still obsessing over impeachment?

    Less than one week before.

    https://patterico.com/2020/02/29/court-of-appeal-vindicates-the-houses-obstruction-of-congress-article-of-impeachment-as-trumpists-run-false-victory-laps/

    But, you were so waaaaaaaaaaay ahead of the curve. LOL

    Munroe (de43d8)

  47. I think quinine and quinine sulfate (except for one brand used for malaria, and with warnings) have been banned in the US for years, Sammy. The FDA says don’t buy it online.

    DRJ (15874d)

  48. @39 This study also discarded the cases that started the treatment but died or were moved to ICU. It almost sounds like everyone that didn’t show some improvement was removed from the dataset in the conclusions but not removed from the count of people used to describe the study size.

    @36 The study disagrees with the advisor. If I’m reading it right the hydroxychloroquine alone was not as effective as it was with the azithromycin. I can’t tell from the study how effective azithromycin by itself was because it looks like they didn’t test that.

    @41 The study talks about how effective hydroxychloroquine was by itself. I’d have to read it again to better understand what it’s saying but it wasn’t a 100% cure.

    frosty (f27e97)

  49. @46 I love conspiracy theories like a lepidopterist loves butterflies. This sort of stuff is natural and expected. But it still needs to be killed and then mounted on a wall with a pin in it. Especially now. These aren’t moon landing or flat earth theories that are harmless.

    frosty (f27e97)

  50. Speaking of conspiracy thories,

    American universities have assisted with putting students in debt to the tune of $1.6T, and yet somehow they think they need 360,000 Chinese students as profit cash cows to subsidize their inefficient operations. Obviously, the majority of these students are legitimate, but just as obvious are those involved in technological appropriation at best, espionage at worst.

    three years in, why is Trump still issuing them student visas?

    nk (1d9030)

  51. Speaking of college students:

    Texas Tech student tests positive, family quarantined

    Texas Tech University says one of their students who returned from Europe is one of the people who has tested positive for coronavirus. TTU says that student has been isolated and their family has been quarantined. The student developed symptoms and was tested at UMC on Monday, March 16.

    Texas Tech has arranged transportation and provided a place for returning students to stay as they return from Study Abroad programs to comply with the 14-day isolation advisory in effect, but the city says this student did not stay in that facility, they went back to their home.

    The family has been placed under legal quarantine that prevents them from traveling. Family members will be monitored by the health department for signs and symptoms of coronavirus for at least 14 days. That order can be extended if anyone in the household shows symptoms.

    Texas Tech student visited airport, Rosa’s Cafe after reporting symptoms

    The student reported developing symptoms while traveling back to Lubbock and while visiting a local restaurant. The city has released the times this patient was at the Lubbock airport and at Rosa’s Cafe. They were at Lubbock airport between 8:45 p.m. and 9:15 p.m. on March 15 and then at Rosa’s Cafe at 4th & Quaker from 9:30 p.m. until close at 11 p.m.

    He or she managed to get the entire family legally quarantined.

    DRJ (15874d)

  52. Australia has a NHS.

    Yes. So does GB. Get a ticket to one of those and go away.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  53. One of Mrs. Montagu’s students was tested on Monday and we’re still waiting.

    Paul Montagu (198c56)

  54. I hope I’m wrong. I really do. But I cannot see the current situation as in any way stable. We are inducing a sharp, hopefully short, recession that has already dropped the major averages 35%. The crash in 1987 was about 35%, as was the double drop in 2000/2001. ANds we don’t really yet see the market bottom.

    So, in the next month or two, we are going to see massive unemployment, massive government intervention, and complete strangling of social activity. All the while that people are having serious financial problems. At some point, people are going to want to peaceably assemble and petition government for a redress of their grievances. Which of course will violate all the gathering rules.

    In short I expect serious civil unrest. Now, maybe it can be contained until this blows over, but people have been talking “18 months” and that just is NOT going to happen.

    Good thing we don’t have any demagogues running for the Presidency who might see an opportunity.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  55. Don’t forget food prep personnel, everyone from cooks to bakers to food processing workers to grocery shelf stockers to food delivery drivers/handlers. One gets sick and you quarantine the whole section?

    harkin (b64479)

  56. Hydroxychloroqui for cv-19 treatment. Drug companies can’t make huge profit on drug that has been around since 1949. That is why you haven’t heard about it.

    rota (7c5974)

  57. @57 I suspect we are going to get A LOT of house parties, pretty soon. People aren’t really meant to be totally isolated for any length of time, so as soon as people figure they are “safe enough” whatever that means, they are going to start having gatherings at home.

    Nic (896fdf)

  58. This:

    Friend of mine is a nurse at a major NYC hospital. Texted her to see how she’s doing with the pandemic. What she had to say was terrifying.

    First, she is trained in blood pathology, but her whole department has been shifted to Coronavirus response.

    They’re dangerously short on supplies. Her entire floor, roughly 30 people, was given two boxes of masks for a total of 100. The hospital has told them they need to make them last for at least two weeks. That’s roughly 3.33 masks per health worker.

    On top of this, the hospital has changed their policy on workers exposed to patients with the virus. Normally, workers exposed would be sent home for quarantine. Now, they are to continue coming to work and just wear a mask.

    The reason for not quarantining the medical staff and making them work with a mask instead is because if they quarantined all that were exposed to Coronavirus, they would not have any doctors or nurses left to treat patients.

    It’s shocking. One of the best NYC hospitals is on a war footing against a global pandemic and does not have enough supplies to adequately address the threat. They feel like they’re fighting Covid-19 with one arm tied behind their back.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  59. I think quinine and quinine sulfate (except for one brand used for malaria, and with warnings) have been banned in the US for years, Sammy. The FDA says don’t buy it online.

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/18/2020 @ 7:57 pm

    Um? Drink lots of tonic water?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  60. My sis is an ICU RN in the Phoenix area.

    She’s been wearing a mask full-time for the past two-plus weeks and at first she was chided by management for waste.

    Last weekend they got their first tested-positive patient. Of course everyone dealing with this patient is in max-protect but she said other nurses were not masking up for other patients.

    This morning she told me hospital announced only one guest per (non-COVID) patient unless it was very grave.

    A few hours ago she said they changed it to no guest period unless it was for patients near death to say goodbye.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  61. “ The reason for not quarantining the medical staff and making them work with a mask instead is because if they quarantined all that were exposed to Coronavirus, they would not have any doctors or nurses left to treat patients.”

    I heard a Dr on the radio talking about this and he said when he and other Drs normally get flu they only miss a few days where they’re really knocked down. He said he had no idea how the extended isolation for exposure and testing positive could be maintained because there just arent enough doctors or nurses.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  62. @53.Ignorance is bliss; stay happy!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. Preliminary research is showing that blood type As are more succeptible to COVID-19 and are much less protected by youth and health.

    Most Europeans are type A.

    Almost 500 people died in Italy yesterday.

    Are you paying attention, Gryph?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  64. Most Europeans are type A.

    False.

    Italy’s blood-type distribution differs from ours at the 1% level.

    If Wikipedia’s data is accurate, the only place in the world where “most people are type A” is Armenia (51% type A).

    Dave (1bb933)

  65. I stand corrected.

    Caucasians are the greatest percentage of blood type As of all the races.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  66. 60.:

    First, we were discussing quinine medications, not all quinine.
    Second, tonic water has far less quinine content than quinine medications.
    Third, even tonic water can be dangerous for some people.

    DRJ (15874d)

  67. R.I.P. Al Worden, CMP astronaut, Apollo 15

    Launched in late July of 1971, Apollo 15 was the first of the more science oriented moon missions. Worden piloted the orbiting command module Endeavour, which had a special bay of scientific instruments installed for data collecting and mapping around the moon as fellow astronauts Jim Irwin and Dave Scott landed their lunar module Falcon at Hadley-Rille which included the use of the first lunar rover. A then new computer-enhanced, color television system was used and the images beamed back to Earth from both lunar orbit and the lunar surface were spectacularly crisp and clear.

    Worden was 88. Fellow crewman Jim Irwin passed years ago. The last living member of the Apollo 15 crew is David Scott.

    Well done, Al. Outstanding.

    Ad Astra.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  68. 14. And that includes statements from Trump. Further, do we want medical professionals who are symptomatic, or even non-symptomatic but have been in close proximity to patients to be able to get tested in order to keep from spreading it and to receive care?

    Testing medical personnel is fine. As already explained a Zillion times, testing is a snapshot of a freeze in time. Testing is only effective, until the medical care provider comes in contact with the next person. At work. At the store, pounding at the key pad refueling the car. So testing medical personnel would need to be done every single time a result from a previous test is delivered. So whats that? every 48 hours?

    5. Oh, and that lie that President Trump said if you want a test you can get a test…its a lie. President Trump said everyone that needs a test can get the test. No ambiguity.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  69. No recreational testing, eh?

    nk (1d9030)

  70. President Trump said everyone that needs a test can get the test. No ambiguity.

    But still a damned lie.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  71. 74. provide a cite.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  72. 74. I just heard a msnbc segement, talking about this. So, as facts are easy to check, they instead opted to retell an anecdote. A veteran, with respiratory infection was tested for several other viruses, but not COVID 19, and sent home. End of story.

    Care to tell me exactly why this bit of, end of bar gossip, was broadcast on a nation wide news outlet?

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  73. She’s a Texas nurse who treats cancer patients — and she can’t get a coronavirus test. That’s not unusual.

    Frustration and confusion mounts among some doctors and patients who can’t get coronavirus tests

    Coronavirus testing has expanded, but people with symptoms say they are denied

    Why Most of Us Can’t Get Tested for Coronavirus:

    California and throughout the country, testing is still largely reserved for the elderly, individuals with underlying health problems, and those suffering from a fever or cough. The number of patients tested in the U.S. over the past two months is still far fewer than the number of patients South Korea tests each day.

    South Korea and the US had their first cases at the same time. You can’t treat what you can’t see.

    DRJ (15874d)

  74. The VA is NHS. It’s always sucked. And so has the media.

    nk (1d9030)

  75. What happened to “Unnecessary tests are what’s driving up the cost of health care”?

    nk (1d9030)

  76. Care to tell me exactly why this bit of, end of bar gossip, was broadcast on a nation wide news outlet?

    Well, you asked a remarkably stoooOOOOOOoooopid question, so you should expect…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  77. I just heard a msnbc segement, talking about this.

    Where’s your cite?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  78. There are all sorts of home health kits for sale, and one company says it will have a coronavirus test soon. Probably not real accurate but the “real” ones have problems, too. Remember when we didn’t have home pregnancy tests and had to go to the doctor?

    DRJ (15874d)

  79. 78. My observation was the “story” was related in a news segment about the availability of COVID-19 testing. Pay attention to the stories. The don’t say tests are not available. That is the narrative they intend on delivering, but not the fact. Desire and need are not the same. In the Vet “story”, we have a person relating the experience of a Vet. That person, has retold the “story” to others, making its way to the “Story” being broadcast nationally. We have no idea of any of the circumstances, are the accuracy of any portion of the story.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  80. 4. It was twelve days ago that President Donald J. Trump, wearing his spiffy “Keep America Great” baseball hat, stood in front of reporters at the CDC and assured the American people in no uncertain terms that “anybody who wants a test gets a test”.

    In other words, “If you like your virus, you can keep your virus.”

    Dave (1bb933) — 3/18/2020 @ 6:05 pm

    Thanks 80. proving that to some spreading lies is more important than keeping information factual and helpful.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  81. 5. Oh, and that lie that President Trump said if you want a test you can get a test…its a lie. President Trump said everyone that needs a test can get the test. No ambiguity.

    I provided a link to a direct quote. No ambiguity:

    Topping a week of conflicting statements from the administration about how many tests the U.S. is now able to administer for the coronavirus, President Donald Trump on Friday told reporters at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta that “anybody who wants a test gets a test.”

    Here is a video of His Orangeness saying those exact words.

    He later repeated it several times replacing “want” with “need”.

    He also repeated “any doctor who wants a test” can get a test.

    Since he’s generally

    a) lying,

    b) about things he knows little or nothing about,

    he says a lot of different and contradictory things.

    Dave (1bb933)

  82. Thanks 80. proving that to some spreading lies is more important than keeping information factual and helpful.

    But if you FLUCKING listen, you’ll hear him say, “…if you want a test…”.

    Later, he amends that to “…need a test…”

    He’s still lying, either way.

    As are you. I don’t know why you T-rump worshipers bother.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  83. No, Iowan2 is right. Trump said “needs”. Like half a dozen times. It was the #FakeNewsMedia chyron which made it “wants”. Pretty blatant, actually, with Trump saying “needs” and “wants” floating simultaneously above his head.

    nk (1d9030)

  84. @57

    Ditto, except I see it blowing up long before 18 months. Frankly, if this goes more than a month, we are going to see a civil explosion.

    But let’s spend our time bickering over what the buffoon in the White House said or didn’t say.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  85. 71. This Imperial College study (or calculation) is simply stating the obvious:

    optimal mitigation policies (combining home isolation of suspect cases, home quarantine of those living in the same household as suspect cases, and social distancing of the elderly and others at most risk of severe disease) might reduce peak healthcare demand by 2/3 and deaths by half. However, the resulting mitigated epidemic would still likely result in hundreds of thousands of deaths and health systems (most notably intensive care units) being overwhelmed many times over. For countries able to achieve it, this leaves suppression as the preferred policy option.

    …suppression doesn’t hold the disease at bay once it’s lifted. We’d need an indefinite lockdown, a.k.a. economic suicide, until an effective treatment is available, which could be more than a year away. Social death by contagion or social death by economic depression: It seems like the task for policymakers right now is finding the “optimal” balance between those two that’ll result in the least possible amount of human misery, knowing that the misery will be incredibly vast no matter what they do.

    The only solution is going ahead with the cure, and/or a vaccine, before it is proven in what has become the standard manner.

    We’re facing right now is standing on a train track with a train about 1,000 feet away. At a moment like that, you don’t think; you jump off that track before you’re creamed. So we’ve jumped by instituting social distancing — but now we’ve landed on a new train track with a second train coming at us around 2,000 feet away. That’s the epidemic once “suppression” measures are lifted. And now we have a broken leg in the form of a massive economic slowdown via our “jump.” What do we do now? We can jump out of the way of the second train too by keeping the suppression measures in place (assuming people agree to continue to follow them), but that’ll land us on a third track with a third train 3,000 feet away. And now we’ll have another broken leg in the form of even more economic pain.

    You gotta believe in the cure. We can’t go on the same way we’ve been doing with ew medical treatments since 1962.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  86. It was the #FakeNewsMedia chyron which made it “wants”. Pretty blatant, actually, with Trump saying “needs” and “wants” floating simultaneously above his head.

    That’s because he said “wants” first, as I showed in the linked video @86 (at about 00:40).

    Dave (1bb933)

  87. Anybody that says this is for two weeks, or a month, is lying. The Olympics n Japan are going to have to be cancelled.

    And even 3 months is hoping it goes away, in President Trump’s words, “like a miracle.”

    But the history of flu epidemics is that when the incidence is too high, it doesn’t go away in warm weather.

    So we’re looking at 3 or 4 years – and then what happens in the next epidemic? (18 months for everyone to be vaccinated with a vaccine that works is kind of optimistic if nothing changes.)

    The whole approach to rolling out new medical treatments has got to be changed.

    Another thing is: We’re probably too blasé about the flu.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  88. This parsing confuses the issue.

    The question is: Do we have enough tests to meet public safety needs or not?
    No.

    From what I’ve read more test availability would allow us to better map and restrict the spread of the virus. I don’t think that’s fake news. Democratic counties (SK, Japan) have done much better at restricting the spread of the virus and it looks like testing has been a key part of that play.

    So once again we have a President that has failed to clearly and accurately communicate the situation and what we need to do about it. Once again we have his devoted fans arguing about if the confusing and conflicting information that’s been presented isn’t actually a lie and focusing on if he’s being treated fairly in the media.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  89. They test people in Brooklyn for other diseases, and if they find something, assume the person does not have coronovirus.

    It’s flu season and there are still colds.

    One doctor somewhere said that it is good enough to be be 2 or 3 meters away from a cough or zneeze, which works out to 10 feet. (of course loud singing can also transmit it from a infected person.)

    The virus is said to be heavy (aren’t the air droplets what is important?) and rather quickly falls to the ground. It is also easily washed off. If it falls on clothing, it doesn’t easily get off, but it can more easily get picked up from smooth surfaces, like metal or plastic. (and of course its protective coating gets destroyed in warm temperatures – it’s like a seed opening – n the wrong place it won;t take root)

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  90. Ok, Dave, everybody is right.

    But, you know, the #FakeNewsMedia is facing a dilemma, too. If the economy shrinks (no, it will not collapse) because of the Chinese virus, it could possibly shrink Trump’s chances or reelection but it will definitely shrink their ad revenue and I would say by about as much as shrinks the Dow. Pauvre, pauvre #FakeNewsMedia!

    nk (1d9030)

  91. 92. Give it up. I’ll be extremely liberal in assuming you re-posted a talking point, without checking out its accuracy because you really, really, really, really, really, really, want to use this pandemic as a tool to get rid of President Trump. And not intentionally lied.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  92. 94. The question is: Do we have enough tests to meet public safety needs or not?

    Define need. Past performance tells us govt types NEVER have “enough” of anything to meet their desires.
    Govt types have already built into the $trillion handout, a list of “needs” that if not met, PEOPLE WILL DIE!!!

    Doubt that? Read through the list of things the CDC is involved with, that have nothing to do with disease.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  93. Oh, yeah, and for those of you guys gleefully anticipating the zombie apocalypse, that’s not going to happen, no matter how hard “some people” are trying to make it happen. In a month (at the most and likely sooner), coronavirus is going to be something that happens to other people and people’s outlook will be back to normal.

    nk (1d9030)

  94. And for one more thing, both Trump and Fauci should self-quarantine somewhere, and not make any public appearances, because when they do they only scare people.

    nk (1d9030)

  95. In a month (at the most and likely sooner), coronavirus is going to be something that happens to other people and people’s outlook will be back to normal.

    Sounds optimistic. Are you referring just to contracting coronavirus, or to the whole social/economic situation?

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  96. 92. Give it up.

    LOL. How about you give it up instead?

    I posted a link to a video of him saying exactly what I claimed.

    That he later repeated the same lie using slightly different words changes nothing in that regard.

    He was full of #$@$ two weeks ago.

    He’s full of #$@$ today.

    He’ll be full of #$@$ two weeks from now, unless he catches the germ and reaches room temperature before then.

    Dave (1bb933)

  97. Define need. Past performance tells us govt types NEVER have “enough” of anything to meet their desires.

    Rather than deflecting, why don’t YOU define need in the context of the USA.

    BTW, waiting on your citation…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  98. 94. Time123 (7cca75) — 3/19/2020 @ 7:09 am

    The question is: Do we have enough tests to meet public safety needs or not?

    We have enough tests. We don’t have enough reagents or people to conduct the tests. But that is a problem at the state or local level, not for the federal government.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-testing-chaos-across-america-11584618703

    The state can process about 250 tests a day, but a backlog means results take as many as five days, a health department spokesperson said.

    The people talking to Trump didn’t make things clear to him. And then he didn’t want to admit he made a mistake, so he never said: I need to make a correction. But just altered his phraseology.

    It is not that anybody who wanted, or needed, or whose doctor ordered one, could get a timely test and result. But the federal government was shipping out to the states as many test kits as were requested or was about to be able to do that when Trump spoke.

    “Whose doctor ordered one” is affected, of course, by states telling or asking doctors only to order one under certain conditions. So that last version was accurate, as far as it went.

    They are catching up on the backlog, and trying to switch to an automated system. We are still getting results from tests made 4 or 5 days ago. Because of the catching up, the number of cases appears to be growing faster than it really is.

    Of those people tested, somewhere between 1% and 4% should be expected to test positive. There are still colds and the flu around and the disease is still rare.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  99. Sounds optimistic. Are you referring just to contracting coronavirus, or to the whole social/economic situation?

    Overall, Bored Lawyer. From the disease itself, to the social and economic situation, to the public’s morale. Right now, what drives the fear is uncertainty. We don’t have a grasp of the situation. But soon we will — how bad it is snd how as bad as we fear it not is.

    nk (1d9030)

  100. 94. The question is: Do we have enough tests to meet public safety needs or not?
    Define need. Past performance tells us govt types NEVER have “enough” of anything to meet their desires.
    Govt types have already built into the $trillion handout, a list of “needs” that if not met, PEOPLE WILL DIE!!!
    Doubt that? Read through the list of things the CDC is involved with, that have nothing to do with disease.
    Iowan2 (bbb95d) — 3/19/2020 @ 7:21 am

    We need enough tests to identify people infected with Covid-19. This information can be used to slow it’s spread. For an example of how this may impact outcomes see the differences between SK and other countries.

    Does that define need well enough for you?

    Maybe an example of where we could have used more tests recently. We could have tested everyone that flew in from Italy last week, but we didn’t.

    Also, when you say Government Types are you including President Trump and the GOP leadership?

    Time123 (306531)

  101. @104 oh good, i’m relieved to know we’ve identified the people responsible for preventing the federal government from being effective in this situation.

    Time123 (306531)

  102. @104, Serious response, this is a great example of where a competent leader could;

    State the situation and clearly identify the problem.
    Present a vision of what we need to do.
    Work with the states and agencies to get a plan.
    Lay out the plan and timeline to the public.

    This would probably involve admitting that areas under his control hadn’t been doing a perfect job all along, but America is a forgiving country, we’d get past that.

    Time123 (306531)

  103. This would probably involve admitting that areas under his control hadn’t been doing a perfect job all along, but America is a forgiving country, we’d get past that.

    Love Orange means never having to say you’re sorry.

    Dave (1bb933)

  104. @105 — I sure hope and pray you are correct. There are lots of doomsayers.

    Right now, what drives the fear is uncertainty.

    !000% The stock market hates uncertainty more than it does bad news. And right now we have plenty of both.

    That’s why every time something is done that seems like a good idea (lower the interest rates to almost zero, huge stimulus), the stock market tanks, because these seem like desperate measures with no certainty of what the outcome will be.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  105. BL, are you saying that honestly presenting the facts, admitting where there are challenges and putting forward a plan that both agrees with what people are seeing and seems doable would be good for the economy? Amazing.

    Time123 (306531)

  106. Breaking (via NYTimes App): Little Socialist Sweetie announces she is dropping out, endorsing Biden.

    Dave (1bb933)

  107. … helpfully reminds Biden that she is female, and will be tanned, rested and ready when the time for a VP nomination rolls around.

    /sarc

    Dave (1bb933)

  108. We need enough tests to identify people infected with Covid-19.

    That is a nonsensical statement due to its lack of specificity. Here is where govt agencies get involved. Remember, the slow lift off for this virus response in the US was driven by the CDC and complicated by the FDA, and other lesser agencies. They were following their pre-determined response guides. Testing requests need to be choked off because it would be counter productive to have every person with the sniffles demanding a Covid-19 test.

    And again, to accomplish what I thing you are after, we would need repeated testing required. Negative testing results today at 9:00am does to mean you are not infected, Its taking 48+ hours to get results.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  109. Time123 (306531) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:01 am

    What’s amazing is the political blood trying to be squeezed from this stone.

    Munroe (de43d8)

  110. Also, plays the Beau card!

    “I know Vice President Biden and his wife and am grateful to have called his son Beau, who also served in the National Guard, a friend,” Gabbard said in a statement. “Although I may not agree with the Vice President on every issue, I know that he has a good heart and is motivated by his love for our country and the American people.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  111. We need enough tests to identify people infected with Covid-19.

    That is a nonsensical statement due to its lack of specificity. Here is where govt agencies get involved. Remember, the slow lift off for this virus response in the US was driven by the CDC and complicated by the FDA, and other lesser agencies. They were following their pre-determined response guides. Testing requests need to be choked off because it would be counter productive to have every person with the sniffles demanding a Covid-19 test.

    And again, to accomplish what I thing you are after, we would need repeated testing required. Negative testing results today at 9:00am does to mean you are not infected, Its taking 48+ hours to get results.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:14 am

    I think there would have been value in using positive tests to identify people who had the disease to push for better quarantine earlier. You’re right, the testing could miss some. But again, there’s a real world example of a democracy (SK) using the test in that way to good results.

    Time123 (306531)

  112. The other thing that encourages me is what the doomsayers fear, and Orwell wrote on the first page of 1984: The proles will be our salvation. The powers that be might feel safe messing with Oak Park and Greenwich Village but they know not to inconvenience Austin and South Bronx for too long.

    nk (1d9030)

  113. Time123 (306531) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:01 am

    What’s amazing is the political blood trying to be squeezed from this stone.

    Munroe (de43d8) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:14 am

    If you have a point it’s not clear.

    Time123 (306531)

  114. Go, Tulsi, go, Tulsi, go! I do hope Biden picks her for VP.

    nk (1d9030)

  115. BL, are you saying that honestly presenting the facts, admitting where there are challenges and putting forward a plan that both agrees with what people are seeing and seems doable would be good for the economy? Amazing.

    Sure, all of those things. But more the latter — we don’t really seem to have a plan, it’s just, there is a crisis, so let Dr. Faucci do whatever he wants (someone said that here on another post, I believe.) and then just do some stimulus and hope for the best. No one (except for a few columnists) has seriously thought through the benefits vs. the costs.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  116. Politics is more interesting than rehashing fact not in evidence,ie, Covid 19

    Gov. Cumo is auditioning for the Democrat Part savior. The media is running his press conferences full length including all the question. The masters at the Democrat Party (the media) have determined Cumo is the man to swoop in when Biden is forced to withdraw by the party. (Bernie is being knee capped as we speak)

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  117. 123 — Didn’t think of that, but yes. Biden as it is seems past it, both mentally and physically. If this is a long-term crisis, he is not the man for the job.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  118. Go, Tulsi, go, Tulsi, go! I do hope Biden picks her for VP.

    Making her one innocent-looking fall down a White House staircase from becoming Supreme Matriarch?

    No thanks.

    Dave (1bb933)

  119. Sure, all of those things. But more the latter — we don’t really seem to have a plan, it’s just, there is a crisis, so let Dr. Faucci do whatever he wants (someone said that here on another post, I believe.) and then just do some stimulus and hope for the best. No one (except for a few columnists) has seriously thought through the benefits vs. the costs.

    ^
    |
    this

    Time123 (306531)

  120. Gretchen Whitmer, Governor of Michigan. Even money.

    nk (1d9030)

  121. https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/public-global-health/488378-italy-likely-to-pass-china-in-virus-deaths

    Italy has socialized universal health care. I think China does too.

    nk (1d9030)

  122. Trump press conference: He would not call the virus an Act of God, but rather something that took us by surprise that could have been stopped if we had known about it and now it inflicted practically the entire world (does not say China knew)

    Said someone on one of the network shows said no one has cut as much red tape at the FDA as he did – more than any other president. True, but not enough.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  123. Iowan2 (bbb95d) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:27 am

    Gov. Cuomo is auditioning for the Democrat Part savior. The media is running his press conferences full length including all the question.

    I don’t know if Cuomo really is. If he is, he’s afraid to breathe a word of it.

    Trump mentions three things approved by the FDA = might be a game changer.

    Normally they might say we might have by next year ir or two years,

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  124. Jumping straight to human trials, I’m pretty sure this is the beginning of every zombie show.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  125. Time123 (306531) — 3/19/2020 @ 7:41 am

    We could have tested everyone that flew in from Italy last week, but we didn’t.

    In the shul I go to, an Saturday afternoon, at the small third meal, one person said that he spent a lot of time on Friday talking to his sister in Florida, who’s quarantined. She is at a university dental school. Turns out a student flew back from Italy and actually treated a patient. Whole school shut down.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  126. President Trump said everyone that needs a test can get the test. No ambiguity.

    Most people seeking a test don’t need one.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  127. President Trump said everyone that WANTS a test can get the test. No ambiguity.

    As Dave has shared the video multiple times.

    Plus, even if you replace want with need, it’s not true, wasn’t then, isn’t today.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  128. Another thing being tried is convalescent plasma – not approved yet. Immunoglobulins. Eerything sis that’s being made available on condition that results be reported back.

    This is not record time. This is record time since the 1920s (discovery of insulin) or the 1930s (sulfa drugs) or the 1940s (penicillin – the delay was caused only by production problems. Now there could be some problems with penicillin, but it, or other antibiotics, cured tuberculosis and syphillis.

    Perhaps this is even faster, when dealing with hings already on the market.

    Mike Pence speaking. Industrial masks can now be sold directly to hospitals. Law changed last night. No liability.

    15 days of social distancing, even though disease is rare.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  129. Go, Tulsi, go, Tulsi, go! I do hope Biden picks her for VP.

    Not a chance. He has a world of lefties to appease. Figure on Harris or Warren.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  130. Dr. Birx: Test positive rates are now past 10%.

    50% of the cases come from 3 states or ten counties.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  131. They also found anew source of ventilators.

    FDA person: One thing young people should consider donating blood. New CDC recommendations,

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  132. The first important case in New York (hit the newspapers March 5) is recovering.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  133. Trump defers on a question to Mike Pence: In Minnesota only 5 million of 35 million masks were eligible to be sold to hospitals.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  134. Trump defers on a question to Mike Pence

    Smartest thing he probably did all day.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  135. Prediction: The primary campaigns are not over. This Covid-19 thing has great potential to upend everything. It could kill one or more of these fogies. The economic downturn will increase the interest in socialist ideas.

    Then there is the lockdown, which will get very old after a couple of weeks. It could empower Sanders. It could lead to an independent candidate fed up with Trump. The potential for demagogues is high. As is the chance of civil disorder if this goes into summer.

    We may have taken the wrong path.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  136. They also found a new source of ventilators.

    Hunh? Unless they are talking about the intubate-and-bag style of manual ventilators , they aren’t the kind of thing that you just start making. Highly electronic and FDA-approved complex devices.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  137. “Never let a crisis go to waste” and this is a huge and ongoing one.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  138. DRJ,

    I wasn’t being serious about quinine in tonic water. Just trying to lighten the mood a little.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  139. They also found a new source of ventilators.

    Kevin M @143.

    Hunh? ..

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/world/coronavirus-news.html

    “We’ve identified tens of thousands of ventilators that can be converted to treat patients,” Mr. Pence said.

    I don;t know what that means actually.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  140. New Jersey press conference: Elections postponed till May and petitions can be signed electronically.

    New 211 telephone number for coronovirus.

    New Jersey state Senate in session to pass legislation helping first responders.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  141. “We’ve identified tens of thousands of ventilators that can be converted to treat patients,” Mr. Pence said.

    CPAP machines can be used to assist breathing, but don’t intubate.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  142. Yesterday’s Coronavirus Task Force Press Briefing:

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-members-coronavirus-task-force-press-briefing-5

    For transcripts of previous, and future Coronavirus Task Force press briefings, change the number at the end of the URL from 5. Number 6 (today) isn’t ready yet.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  143. Warren gets u no +, Tulsi is left enough. Nk has smarts on this…I say its either of G. Whitner, Gabbard or Val Demings.

    urbanleftbehind (3672c3)

  144. @150

    Black people in the south put Biden back on track. I expect he will pick a not particularly woke black woman. I’m thinking Harris, Rice, Abrams.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  145. Also, I’m 99% convinced that Tulsi’s next position is as a commentator on Fox. There she will play the role of apostate Democrat who criticizes everything the party does.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  146. Hey, urbanleftbehind. In local news, I’m not happy that Kim Foxx won but I’m not unhappy that Conway lost, either. A rich little jerkoff using daddy’s millions to buy a springboard into higher office, and less qualified to be State’s Attorney than Foxx. I’ll be voting for the Republican in November in any case.

    nk (1d9030)

  147. nk (1d9030) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:41 am

    https://[…]/488378-italy-likely-to-pass-china-in-reported-virus-deaths

    Italy has socialized universal health care. I think China does too.

    FIFY

    frosty (f27e97)

  148. There she will play the role of apostate Democrat who criticizes everything the party does.

    Tim Poole hardest hit.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  149. A reporter from OANN asked whether he considers the term Chinese food racist because it’s food that originated from that country.

    The headline, a reporter from OANN was in this briefing.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  150. Conway almost had the numbers if More and Fioretti were not in to split votes, I myself would rather kill the enemy sooner than later, nk. Hopefully, the Irish, whether lace-curtain or canal district, vote as a bloc for O’Toole.

    urbanleftbehind (3672c3)

  151. Demings is a former cop married to a cop in Orlando, that’s pretty anti-woke for a black woman. I thought if her when the LAC-SA husband was waving the pistol.

    urbanleftbehind (3672c3)

  152. Someone needs to get Trump from watching Mad Money

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-says-support-government-taking-165550445.html

    Maybe Trump doesn’t watch the show, but Cramer was advocating a more expansive version of this last night. He thinks the Treasury should buy up a whole load of stocks, then sell when the market goes back up, so as to harvest the profit, and meanwhile use its powers as shareholders to force the companies to do…Cramer wasn’t very specific, but he broadly suggested stuff making the companies do stuff beneficial to the Treasure and the American public.

    kishnevi (496414)

  153. well, i for one, don’t think the treasury should do it, mr. kishnevi

    i think the united states army should do it

    and keep them, the stocks i mean

    just like the chineser people’s liberation army

    nk (1d9030)

  154. Kishnevi, what’s the name for the form of government where the government owns a part of private sector and makes them run their business for the benefit of the Government?

    Is that Capitalism? I’m not sure….

    Time123 (7cca75)

  155. Kishnevi, what’s the name for the form of government where the government owns a part of private sector and makes them run their business for the benefit of the Government?

    I’m not sure.

    I guess they could call it something like “National Socialism”.

    Dave (1bb933)

  156. Dave, Doesn’t that have a component where you define ‘the nation’ as meaning as specific ethnic group?

    Time123 (7cca75)

  157. Hey kid you gotta know the righta peoples. Iffa you the righta peoples everythinga come uppa roses. — Vito “Cool Lips” Chericola, Chicago’s Mafia boss (fictional)

    The Russians know Putin, Putin knows Trump, Trump knows Barr, Barr knows the trial prosecutors ….

    nk (1d9030)

  158. The dismissal has nothing to do with the truth of the charges, or the government’s ability to prove them:

    With the case set to go to trial next month, prosecutors recommended that the Justice Department drop the charges to preserve national security interests and prevent Russia from weaponizing delicate American law enforcement information, according to the official. The prosecutors also weighed the benefits of securing a guilty verdict against the companies, which cannot be meaningfully punished in the United States, against the risk of exposing national security secrets in order to win in court.

    “Concord has been eager and aggressive in using the judicial system to gather information about how the United States detects and prevents foreign election interference,” prosecutors said in a motion filed in court on Monday. At the same time, the firm has tried to stymie the judicial process, including by concealing facts and documents and submitting a false affidavit.

    Department officials denied that the decision to drop the charges was intended to dismantle Mr. Mueller’s work, noting that prosecutors are still pursuing charges against the 13 Russians and the Internet Research Agency.

    Dave (1bb933)

  159. Doesn’t that have a component where you define ‘the nation’ as meaning as specific ethnic group?

    Not necessarily. Fascism originally was not ethnically based, it was nationally based.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  160. “More than an investigation, the Mueller probe was the wellspring of a political narrative. That becomes clearer as time goes by and more information ekes out . . . such as new confirmation that, months before Mueller was appointed in May 2017, it was already well understood in Justice Department circles that there was no case of criminal “collusion” between the Trump campaign and Russia.

    Never was that made more obvious than by the Justice Department’s quiet announcement late Monday, under the five-alarm noise of the coronavirus scare, that it has dropped the special counsel’s indictment of Russian companies — an outcome I predicted here at National Review nearly two years ago.”

    — – Andrew McCarthy

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  161. Dave, Doesn’t that have a component where you define ‘the nation’ as meaning as specific ethnic group?

    Well, the most important thing is that you define the enemy as meaning a specific ethnic group.

    Like “Jewish vermin”.

    Or “Chinese virus”.

    Dave (1bb933)

  162. That’s quite a stretch. ChiCom Party Propaganda.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  163. Their foothold in academia has been secured for quite a while now.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  164. Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 3/19/2020 @ 11:35 am

    That might be the point. It’s easier rhetorically to get to NAZI from national socialist than it is fascism and I think Dave is more interested in scoring points than a discussing of economics.

    frosty (f27e97)

  165. @168

    “More than an investigation, the Mueller probe was the wellspring of a political narrative. That becomes clearer as time goes by and more information ekes out . . . such as new confirmation that, months before Mueller was appointed in May 2017, it was already well understood in Justice Department circles that there was no case of criminal “collusion” between the Trump campaign and Russia.

    Never was that made more obvious than by the Justice Department’s quiet announcement late Monday, under the five-alarm noise of the coronavirus scare, that it has dropped the special counsel’s indictment of Russian companies — an outcome I predicted here at National Review nearly two years ago.”

    — – Andrew McCarthy

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/19/2020 @ 11:36 am

    It’s interesting that this isn’t getting much play politically, despite the COVID-19 news.

    We now know that it was all political theater rather than an investigation in good faith.

    whembly (c30c83)

  166. It’s easier rhetorically to get to NAZI from national socialist

    Since Nazi is an abbreviation of the German word for National Socialist, you might be onto something here…

    And national socialism (unlike fascism) was always ethnically based.

    Dave (1bb933)

  167. nk (1d9030) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:23 am

    Go, Tulsi, go, Tulsi, go! I do hope Biden picks her for VP.

    Tulsi Gabbard has now gone. She has officially pulled out of the presidential race, and made a speech in which she said Aloha.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  168. Doesn’t that have a component where you define ‘the nation’ as meaning as specific ethnic group?

    Not necessarily. Fascism originally was not ethnically based, it was nationally based.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 3/19/2020 @ 11:35 am

    I was being snarky above but I have a serious point.

    Ethnic group includes more than just race. Twins separated and raised in different places would not be of the exact same ethnicity. But they would have the same DNA.

    Most of the “Nationalist” movements I’ve seen define the ‘Nation’ very much with a cultural identity being a factor. To be at the ‘center’ of the nation you need to have the correct Race, Religion, Language and Culture. This distinction get’s lost because we usually describe ethnic groups by skin color or ancestral origin.

    So I don’t think you can really say something is ‘nationally based’ without it also being ethnically based. In theory I’m it may be possible, but I don’t think it’s actually happened yet.

    In the case of the Nazi I don’t think it would have been possible to define “German National” that didn’t include race and religion.

    Time123 (306531)

  169. @128. Italy has traffic laws, too. You ever taken a cab ride in Rome? Nothing works well if it is poorly managed. And, ‘Most of those killed so far in Italy have been elderly and those suffering from an underlying medical condition such as diabetes, the AP noted.’- per the Hill.

    And proportionately, it’s not a relevant comparison given the population difference, densities and the mean ages of those infected w/PECs; China can easily absorb a 100,000 loss in an earthquake but if Vesuvius blows again it would be a massive loss. The Reds did a Gestapo-styled lockdown a Nawzee would envy, too, isolated and scrubbed down entire cities and did testing door to door. It can be effective– but wouldn’t go too over well in the U.S.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  170. 135. It was streptomycin that was introduced as a treatment for tuberculosis in 1946 in the United States.

    This could never happen so fast now, but there are a lot of FDA approved pharmaceuticals that could be re-purposed and used off label.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  171. We now know that it was all political theater rather than an investigation in good faith.

    The only people who “know that” are people who ignore the actual, documented reason for dropping the case, which has nothing to do with any inability to prove the charges.

    Dave (1bb933)

  172. Time123 (306531) — 3/19/2020 @ 12:02 pm

    Let’s not drive by the fact the Dave has some nazis he wants to identify just in case punch a nazi day becomes a thing again.

    frosty (f27e97)

  173. From an article by Karen L. Trieger in the Jewish Press dated Friday March 6, 2020:

    https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/coronavirus-the-nazis-and-my-grandmother/2020/03/06/

    People with tuberculosis were sought out by the Nazis in occupied Poland and the Soviet Union. The SS used mobile X-ray machines to diagnose approximately 100,000 Polish and Soviet citizens with tuberculosis. They were all shot.

    I never eard of this before, except for sick people in concentration camps. I wish she gave more details.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  174. We now know that it was all political theater rather than an investigation in good faith.

    I don’t think you’re correct. I thing they were trying to determine what the Russians did and put the information into the public in the best way they knew how, through indictments that could be challenged in court.

    They probably just should have done a report.

    Time123 (306531)

  175. Time123 (306531) — 3/19/2020 @ 12:02 pm

    Let’s not drive by the fact the Dave has some nazis he wants to identify just in case punch a nazi day becomes a thing again.

    frosty (f27e97) — 3/19/2020 @ 12:07 pm

    Didn’t really see any point in engaging with that.

    Time123 (306531)

  176. Also, I’m 99% convinced that Tulsi’s next position is as a commentator on Fox. There she will play the role of apostate Democrat who criticizes everything the party does.

    I doubt it. I think she’s been raising her profile and will run for a statewide office in Hawaii. Governor or Senator.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  177. In the case of the Nazi I don’t think it would have been possible to define “German National” that didn’t include race and religion.

    Hitler saw himself and the Nazis as fighting not only for Germans, but for “western civilization” as a whole, against the “Asiatic” threats of Judaism and Bolshevism (which were in turn often portrayed as the same threat).

    Dave (1bb933)

  178. Dave, Doesn’t that have a component where you define ‘the nation’ as meaning as specific ethnic group?

    “Us” works just fine.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  179. I think she’s been raising her profile and will run for a statewide office in Hawaii. Governor or Senator.

    I understood that she was considered likely to be primaried out of her House seat if she decided to run again.

    Dave (1bb933)

  180. ‘Most of those killed so far in Italy have been elderly and those suffering from an underlying medical condition such as diabetes, the AP noted.’- per the Hill.

    More properly stated: ‘Most of those killed so far in Italy have been elderly and those suffering from typical ailments of the elderly.”

    The first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  181. Dave, Doesn’t that have a component where you define ‘the nation’ as meaning as specific ethnic group?

    “Us” works just fine.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/19/2020 @ 12:22 pm

    Are AOC and Ilhan Omar part of “Us”?
    If not specifically why?

    Genuinely interested in your answer if you care to give it.

    Time123 (306531)

  182. We now know that it was all political theater rather than an investigation in good faith.

    whembly (c30c83) — 3/19/2020 @ 11:53 am

    LOL

    We know that Trump and Russia colluded. It happened on national TV for all honest men and women to see. We know that Trump broke the law obstructing the investigation. We know his more mentally … interesting … fans have been desperately struggling to insist this impeachment and this investigation were the worst thing ever, at fault for the corona virus, a conspiracy of the deep state. The desperation makes sense. I have no idea if Biden can beat Trump but if he does, all those ‘lock her up chants’ are going to come back and haunt you guys.

    You guys are not just voting for Trump to stay in power. You’re voting for Trump’s freedom from justice. You better hope those Russian trolls bring their A game.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  183. Bureaucratic bumbling and an utter lack of leadership allowed the COVID-19 virus to spread undetected.

    https://reason.com/2020/03/19/health-bureaucrats-botched-the-response-to-coronavirus-trump-made-it-even-worse/

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  184. I have no idea if Biden can beat Trump but if he does, all those ‘lock her up chants’ are going to come back and haunt you guys.

    No. The most important thing the next president can do is strengthen rule of law de-politicize the justice department. Using Trump’s “lock her up” to justify targeting him doesn’t’ do that.

    Time123 (306531)

  185. @191. Pretty much. But that won’t be a problem next time- say, in 2120- when the Department of Planetary Management handles it.

    You can see it coming.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  186. @190

    We now know that it was all political theater rather than an investigation in good faith.

    whembly (c30c83) — 3/19/2020 @ 11:53 am

    LOL

    We know that Trump and Russia colluded.

    We do not.

    It happened on national TV for all honest men and women to see.

    I guess your sarcasm meter is broken.

    We know that Trump broke the law obstructing the investigation.

    We do not. We only have the Mueller report, a very one-sided report purposely written to damage Trump politically, not in a manner in good faith investigations.

    We know his more mentally … interesting … fans have been desperately struggling to insist this impeachment and this investigation were the worst thing ever, at fault for the corona virus, a conspiracy of the deep state. The desperation makes sense. I have no idea if Biden can beat Trump but if he does, all those ‘lock her up chants’ are going to come back and haunt you guys.

    No struggle for me.

    I don’t want Democrats in power. Period.

    You guys are not just voting for Trump to stay in power. You’re voting for Trump’s freedom from justice. You better hope those Russian trolls bring their A game.

    Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/19/2020 @ 12:34 pm

    Nope. I’m voting to keep Democrats out of power. That’s all.

    whembly (c30c83)

  187. Trump has been all over this, he’s perfect, he totally predicted it, he’s known it was a pandemic since before it was…wait, it totally blindsided us, and the agencies weren’t prepared. If only there was an agency specifically tasked with this.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  188. Well said, whembly. There are still a few true-believers out there… it must be easier on them to pretend reality is just an illusion.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  189. Anyone wondering how this virus is going through North Korea considering they’re an isolated, unstable nation with nukes?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  190. We know that Trump and Russia colluded.

    We do not.

    Saw it on national TV. It’s just a plain fact.

    By all means pretend you know better than our lying eyes but Biden’s going to bring this point home over and over, and I really think he’s going to try to lock Trump up. Better hope your Russian allies help you screw our democracy up real good or it’s going to be a rough January.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  191. Saw it on national TV. It’s just a plain fact.

    The delusion on the left is mind-blowing.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  192. “The delusion on the left is mind-blowing”

    From the guy who thinks this is a bio weapon attack.

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  193. Only a troll would even pretend I’m on the left. But hey, you’re the one who was acting shady with your IP address so I guess… you’re a banned troll right? You’re in similar company on this issue.

    Trump’s down what ten points to Biden? And got impeached for trying to damage his campaign?

    Or are those also ‘delusions of the left’ lol.

    Thanks for keeping me entertained!

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  194. MAOA doesn’t think this is a bio weapons attack, but that kind of claim sows doubt and instability in our country.

    He’s claimed to be an infantry hero but he didn’t say in which nation’s army!

    Traitor.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  195. You are such a liar, man.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  196. Oh I think you know I’m not.

    It’s hard to keep all you trolls sorted (since some of you are the same weirdo). What isn’t hard to keep sorted is that Trump colluded with Russia on national TV. He also lied to us, claiming this virus was contained before claiming he had always known it was a pandemic. Imagine any other Putin lackey being that incompetent. Admitting you knew it was a pandemic when you told us it was contained!

    Trump should (and very possibly will) be impeached for his failure with corona virus, and if Biden manages to overcome the Trump/Putin campaign he should seek prison sentences.

    So at least you understand what you’re shilling for: Trump’s freedom.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  197. @198

    We know that Trump and Russia colluded.

    We do not.

    Saw it on national TV. It’s just a plain fact.

    If you’re referring to Trump on the campaign stump when he asked for the release of the information… the DNC reported the hack of their email server months before. That’s not collusion nor even evidence of conspiracy… it was an obvious Trumpian sarcastic snark.

    By all means pretend you know better than our lying eyes but Biden’s going to bring this point home over and over,

    LOL… Biden doesn’t remember what he had for breakfast.

    and I really think he’s going to try to lock Trump up.

    Sure. Go for it Biden.

    Better hope your Russian allies help you screw our democracy up real good or it’s going to be a rough January.

    Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/19/2020 @ 1:16 pm


    Are you expecting me to take this comment seriously or should I ignore it as you being silly?

    whembly (c30c83)

  198. You are delusional and you are a liar.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  199. Hey, Donald Trump says he’s not a “postal clerk”, local government should be in charge of ordering things…says the man who is literally the boss of all the postal clerks.

    The USPS is an independent agency of the executive branch of the United States federal government responsible for providing postal service in the United States, including its insular areas and associated states. It is one of the few government agencies explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  200. C’mon guys, elbow-bump and make up…

    Dave (1bb933)

  201. Hey, Donald Trump says he’s not a “postal clerk”

    And what a pity it is.

    With his “I don’t take responsibility at all” work ethic, he wouldn’t even need training.

    Dave (1bb933)

  202. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/19/2020 @ 1:38 pm

    Technically being the boss of postal clerks doesn’t make a person a postal clerk. Strangely this applies to more than just postal clerks.

    frosty (f27e97)

  203. C’mon guys, elbow-bump and make up…

    Dave (1bb933) — 3/19/2020 @ 1:46 pm

    LOL I wouldn’t want to get that close to folks who are probably in their 70s, given I actually do talk to a lot of people.

    Now that I know it’s Biden I am merely entertained by this spectacle. Putin REALLY wanted somebody but Biden to be nominated. The democrats will try every trick in the book (many dirty ones) to win, versus Trump doing the same. Meanwhile we will be seeing ad after ad of Trump telling us he knew it was a pandemic and lying that he contained it, telling Russia to help him with Hillary’s classified emails, telling his buddies he gropes women and gets away with anything. Trump will portray Biden as old, senile, creepy, and a crook. Of course that’s all true.

    I have no idea if Biden can beat Trump/Putin. That’s a tall order. But the stakes are becoming clear. As our executives serve our enemies, as they do today, our nation’s interests are directly compromised (such as with the Kurds and NATO) or neglected (like Trump with most aspects of disease control preparation, a shocking and historic failure actually worse than 9/11).

    I miss Bush.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  204. Stare and compare CCP propaganda re: Wuhan coronavirus with what is coming out of some of our media and academia.

    It’s the new Long March…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  205. We know that Trump broke the law obstructing the investigation

    we know that’s a lie. DEMOCRATS have so decreed. A crime would have been included in the Articles of Impeachment. Even Schiff, and Nadler, nor any attorney of any political persuasion, was going to tank their reputation attempting to defend the charge against cross examination. Very simply, as I have explained here, and others have too, crimes are defined by the elements needed to prove the crimp. Those elements have long been laid out by the DoJ’s,Office of Legal Counsel. All you have to do is check of those defined elements and you win! OR, you can plow new ground, and redefine those elements and seek a conviction, using new elements and legal logic.
    But that comes with danger. Use those new parameters, and the next Democrat President would be subject to the new rules.
    In short, its not a crime if none is charged. See SDNY, walking away from supposed violations of Federal Election laws ie, Stormy! The SDNY is heavily populated by anti Trumpers. Again, lawyers are not going to sully their reputation attempting to defend the indefensible.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  206. Stare and compare CCP propaganda re: Wuhan coronavirus with what is coming out of some of our media and academia.

    It’s the new Long March…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/19/2020 @ 2:07 pm

    get help

    Time123 (653992)

  207. Technically being the boss of postal clerks doesn’t make a person a postal clerk. Strangely this applies to more than just postal clerks.

    So “technically” being the boss of law-enforcement officers doesn’t make a person a law-enforcement officer either then?

    Asking for a (Ukrainian) friend.

    Dave (1bb933)

  208. We could have had the son of a postal carrier, but noooooo

    urbanleftbehind (43dc5a)

  209. 210.Hey, Donald Trump says he’s not a “postal clerk”

    And what a pity it is.

    With his “I don’t take responsibility at all” work ethic, he wouldn’t even need training.

    Dave (1bb933) — 3/19/2020 @ 1:52 pm

    You lack of understanding concerning our constitution is stunning. Federalism, Those powers not enumerated to the Federal govt remain with the States or the People.

    De Blasio was just giving a press conference 4:30 EDT and took several swipes at President Trump specifically and the Federal govt in general. I would love to have Trump send in a general to NYC, into the mayors office and take over from De Blasio. If De Blasio wants President Trump to step up, the President should oblige him.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  210. Bush was able to get support up quite high during his main crisis. Of course Katrina and the financial crisis didn’t work that way but after 9/11 people were listening to him.

    There’s really no way Trump can do that. Many of his supporters have been told for years that everything they are taught in school or hear from a journalist is definitely a crazy lie, and every bad thing is a huge conspiracy. Lying can work for a little while, but most folks just don’t trust Trump.

    To the conservative movement, it’s not a huge change. Skepticism about government capability or honesty has been part of the movement for centuries. But it actually is a huge change. The movement was infected with something sillier: I think it was the birthers. This idea that our president was not only black (and yeah that matters to a lot of these guys very very much) but a secret Kenyan Muslim with a forged birth certificate, really opened the door to a lot of silly stuff. Trump tweeted “born in Kenya” over and over. ‘Born in Kenya’ was Trump’s original ‘Lyin’ Ted’ ‘Sleepy Joe’ slogan, as far as I can tell.

    It’s just not possible to build on this kind of division.

    Trump’s fans are quick to point out there are real problems with their opponents. But they get so angry when even a fraction of that scrutiny falls on their dear leader. Yes, of course Biden’s a crook and a creep and an idiot. Of course. But Trump’s worse on all that. Obama, in my opinion, recognized that birthers were largely racist, and he let the ‘scandal’ keep up for a long time. If his opponent was making a mistake, why interrupt? Well… because it was really bad for our country, Obama should have recognized.

    Trump’s clumsy honesty in the post (the special get the tests) is a symptom of what Trump is really good for: he’s proving how bad the GOP really is. I’ve always said, or at least said for ten years, that the obstacle to limited government isn’t the democrats. They are just arguing for their position naturally. The obstacle are the people posing as conservative, sucking up all conservatism’s support, and then betraying that cause.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  211. President Xi Jinping says “propaganda reports must extend their tentacles” to reach readers and viewers everywhere.

    https://newrepublic.com/amp/article/150476/american-elite-universities-selfcensorship-china

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  212. People are not fooled…

    https://twitter.com/emilyjashinsky/status/1240706060660305920

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  213. Here’s some help for you, time123:

    https://twitter.com/Julio_Rosas11/status/1240682224032321542

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  214. And in the end, we may find that the fastest way to kill the Wuhan coronavirus is to convince Hillary Clinton that it will testify against her.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  215. You lack of understanding concerning our constitution is stunning.

    Nobody knows the constitution better than me.

    (See what I did there?)

    It seems like only a month ago, because it was, that we were being lectured about some “unitary executive” whose purview was boundless, who had the right to do whatever they want as president, and whose authority to bribe the leaders of other countries with foreign aid and send his personal lawyer to gin up sham investigations against political rivals was beyond question. If the Great and Powerful One takes a personal interest in fighting imagined corruption, then by golly, he should launch and supervise an unpredicated, off-the-books investigation himself! Right out of the Oval Office!

    Fast forward, and now it turns out the Almighty Executive is a mere spectator – a prisoner of events! a victim of circumstance! – who certainly has no accountability for any aspect of a situation he’s been spewing double-talk and disinformation about for weeks on end. No sir! The buck stops somewhere else!

    Dave (1bb933)

  216. 197.Anyone wondering how this virus is going through North Korea considering they’re an isolated, unstable nation with nukes?

    It Kung-Flu-thru. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  217. @219. Trump is a bystander in this; the conservative movement, irrelevant.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  218. Fast forward, and now it turns out the Almighty Executive is a mere spectator – a prisoner of events! a victim of circumstance! – who certainly has no accountability for any aspect of a situation he’s been spewing double-talk and disinformation about for weeks on end. No sir! The buck stops somewhere else!

    Dave (1bb933) — 3/19/2020 @ 2:53 pm

    Good point. We’ve come a long way since ‘I’ve an article 2 and can do what I want.’

    It says a whole lot about Trump’s capabilities in a crisis that his fans are less interested in highlighting leadership as it happens… more interested in talking about the amusing caricatures of Hillary. I suspect this virus is something she would have handled much better, as she would have at least kept a lot of the same people from the Bush admin and Obama admin. I could be wrong… she was awful with Libya (though many Obama advisers, particularly holdovers from the Bush era, were on the money with Libya). You have to be strong enough to not surround yourself with yes-men all the time if you want to prepare for these kinds of problems. Trump is simply not like that.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  219. 219. Trump is a bystander in this; the conservative movement, irrelevant.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/19/2020 @ 3:00 pm

    True. But obviously I wish that weren’t the case. Wish in one hand… go ahead and wish in the other too because we’re all out of TP.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  220. A crime would have been included in the Articles of Impeachment.

    This is from the mind that insisted that Duh Donald had authority to summarily execute Lt. Col. Vindeman.

    It’s been pointed out that obstruction of Congress IS a crime AND misdemeanor. Most of us had nooooOOOOOOooooo problem when Barackula was POTUS calling his obstruction impeachable. It seems only those who worship the Great Goad Cheeto have reversed their “thinking”.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  221. @228. When you’re managing some one who is wholly incontinent daily, no TP is no problem.

    No washing machine detergent is. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  222. 225.I was going to cut and paste your post. But there is no break in the stupid.

    The President of the United States does have Article II powers to conduct foreign affairs. That’s exactly what he is doing. That you want to attach some nefarious motive to it, is on you. The President of the United States is well within his Article II powers to send any envoy he desires to any nation he desires. He is the President. The President (not some nebulous “working group”) establishes the direction of that foreign policy. And as far as starting investigations, that would be the President of the United States operating under a Treaty between the United States and Ukraine to fight and prosecute corruption.

    Democrats, ONLY Democrats, attempted to turn the Presidents use of Article II powers into an impeachable offense (not a crime) and remove him from office, but they failed.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  223. But the question is? Should President Trump take over the New York City Mayors office. According to the Mayor, that is within Federal power.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  224. But the question is? Should President Trump take over the New York City Mayors office. According to the Mayor, that is within Federal power.

    No, the question is should president Trump endeavor to do the job of President of the United States. He’s utterly failing at this point.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  225. 233.
    Danna Bash, CNN
    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
    Gov Cumo
    Gov Newsom
    Dr Brix
    Dr Faulchi

    Are just a few leftist that are praising the Presidents work

    I have yet to see any reports of actions the President has refused to take, but several where he was accused of acting too soon.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  226. “Democrats, ONLY Democrats, attempted to turn the Presidents use of Article II powers into an impeachable offense (not a crime) and remove him from office, but they failed.”

    Congratulations, you now understand the check on the President’s Article II powers

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  227. I have yet to see any reports of actions the President has refused to take, but several where he was accused of acting too soon.

    Are you serious? Nevermind, we know the answer.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  228. Still lacking that good discussion about what powers the President can use to usurp state and local governing bodies. We are now at two commenters avoiding the debate.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  229. “Dr Brix
    Dr Faulchi”

    How are these guys “leftists”?

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  230. There are more doctors on television than on the golf courses these days.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  231. 238. Ok. You’re right.

    But the experts, including Brix and Faulchi have done nothing but support the work of President Trump.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  232. But the experts, including Brix and Faulchi have done nothing but support the work of President Trump.

    Well, no, they’re not minimizing the risk, lying about it being contained, lying about miracle therapies, counting on “warm” to stop it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  233. Sen. Richard Burr has covered his butt:

    Intelligence Chairman Raised Virus Alarms Weeks Ago, Secret Recording Shows

    The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee warned a small group of well-connected constituents three weeks ago to prepare for dire economic and societal effects of the coronavirus, according to a secret recording obtained by NPR.

    The remarks from U.S. Sen. Richard Burr were more stark than any he had delivered in more public forums.

    Senator Dumped Up to $1.6 Million of Stock After Reassuring Public About Coronavirus Preparedness

    Soon after he offered public assurances that the government was ready to battle the coronavirus, the powerful chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard Burr, sold off a significant percentage of his stocks, unloading between $582,029 and $1.56 million of his holdings on Feb. 13 in 29 separate transactions.
    …….
    A week after Burr’s sales, the stock market began a sharp decline and has lost about 30% since.

    Ah, life of a public servant.

    RipMurdock (18cf88)

  234. “But the experts, including Brix and Faulchi have done nothing but support the work of President Trump.”

    “We worked very well with that office [the NSC global health unit]. It would be nice if the office was still there,” Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said during a House Oversight and Reform Committee hearing on Wednesday.

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  235. U.S. Virus Plan Anticipates 18-Month Pandemic and Widespread Shortages
    A federal government plan to combat the coronavirus warned policymakers last week that a pandemic “will last 18 months or longer” and could include “multiple waves,” resulting in widespread shortages that would strain consumers and the nation’s health care system.

    The 100-page plan, dated Friday, the same day President Trump declared a national emergency, laid out a grim prognosis for the spread of the virus and outlined a response that would activate agencies across the government and potentially employ special presidential powers to mobilize the private sector.
    …..
    The plan, which was unclassified but marked “For Official Use Only // Not For Public Distribution or Release,” was shared with The New York Times as Mr. Trump escalated his efforts to curb the spread of the virus. After weeks of playing down the seriousness of the pandemic, saying it would miraculously disappear, Mr. Trump began shifting to a more sober tone during a news conference on Friday announcing the national emergency. ……

    RipMurdock (18cf88)

  236. h ref=https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2020/03/19/former-fema-chief-rips-out-earpiece-walks-off-msnbc-not-listening-to-bullsht/>This is Obama’s FEMA Director trying to explain to two block heads how to work a crisis

    The whole thing about having a single person in charge, I’m going to call BS. That comes as a single point of failure. We actually have 50 people that are the lead, that’s the state governors and their public health departments. The biggest thing the federal government can do is get them money because there’s not enough resources to do what needs to be done. Governors need to be in power to take dramatic action, protect lives, maximize their resources, start-up production. If we wait for the federal government, we’re too late.”

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  237. I forgot the atribution. msnbc, and Obama’a FEMA director Craig Fugate

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  238. Fugate? Not of the Troublesome Creek, Kentucky Fugates?

    nk (1d9030)

  239. RipMurdock (18cf88) — 3/19/2020 @ 3:45 pm

    You really didn’t need classified info to see this coming. I was bringing up covid19 here and being told it was nothing to worry about several weeks ago. I started selling a little late but before the drop.

    But back then the normal flu was worse and people would laugh at any tin-foil hat nutter talk.

    frosty (f27e97)

  240. They had Impeachment Fevah, frosty. They couldn’t see past their most fervent hopes and dreams.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  241. The first cases of the corona Trump virus (I’m just being accurate: it started during his administration!) in the United States and in South Korea were recorded on exactly the same day.

    And yet the South Koreans are well past the peak of the curve of new infections, down from 800/day a couple weeks ago to 200/day now, while ours are currently doubling every two days.

    Are their geniuses just more stable than ours?

    Dave (1bb933)

  242. “ Democrats were so opposed to Trump’s travel bans with China and Iran that they literally attempted an act of Congress to prevent him from carrying them out. On March 5, 2020, Rep. Judy Chu (D-Calif.) introduced the “No Ban Act”, which would have prevented Trump from implementing his travel ban. It was co-sponsored by 219 House Democrats. Senate Democrats also tried to prevent Trump from implementing his travel bans, introducing legislation that would block funds from being used to enforce them.”

    Hopefully voters will remember this come November.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  243. Katie Rogers

    @katierogers
    “The fear and suspicion directed at China in the devastating early days of the coronavirus outbreak have made a 180-degree turn: It is the West that now frightens Asia and the rest of the world.” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/world/asia/coronavirus-china-united-states.html?referringSource=articleShare

    ————————
    James Hasson
    @JamesHasson20
    This @nytimes story lauding China’s “humanitarian efforts” to combat the pandemic that it started may as well have been written by the communist party.

    It only admits that China is actually *selling* medical equipment to Italy in paragraph 28.https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/world/asia/coronavirus-china-aid.html#click=https://t.co/Fjlfdkoklh

    ———————
    Coronavirus Is Making China’s Model Look Better and Better
    The democratic world order survived the crash of 2008. It may not be so fortunate this time.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-17/coronavirus-is-making-china-s-model-look-better-and-better?srnd=opinion&utm_source=url_link

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  244. The first cases of the corona Trump virus (I’m just being accurate: it started during his administration!)

    LOL! Fair point. Given how much Trump trades on little dishonest sleazy slogans he better hope this doesn’t take off. Sleepy Joe might want to use that!

    It’s not fair, but the ‘he fights’ guys love unfairness so they should appreciate what they’ve done to our political system.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  245. “which would have prevented Trump from implementing his travel ban”

    No it wouldn’t have.

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  246. Democrats are not one whit less despicable than Trump, and only Democrats would argue otherwise. Trump’s own despicableness stems from his lifelong Democratinity.

    nk (1d9030)

  247. “Are their geniuses just more stable than ours?”
    Dave (1bb933) — 3/19/2020 @ 4:26 pm

    I guessing their geniuses weren’t obsessing over impeachment while infections were ramping.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  248. Pence is left holding the Trump Virus bag, resigns or becomes the Trump Virus Czar or whatever, and it’s Trump/Haley?

    I can see that happening.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  249. *I’m

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  250. Democrats are not one whit less despicable than Trump, and only Democrats would argue otherwise. Trump’s own despicableness stems from his lifelong Democratinity.

    nk (1d9030) — 3/19/2020 @ 4:48 pm

    For sure. Biden is like a clone of Trump. It’s like one was reincarnated from the other and had different life circumstances. It’s funny how much each ones loyalists hate eachother though.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  251. I also considered calling the Chinese virus the “Trump virus but, now that I saw how stupid it sounded when Dave said it, I’m glad I refrained.

    nk (1d9030)

  252. Democrats were so opposed to Trump’s travel bans with China and Iran that they literally attempted an act of Congress to prevent him from carrying them out.

    Whoever told you that was lying to you, as they so often do, and as you so often believe without question.

    The NO BAN Act was aimed at Trump’s Muslim ban(s) and included an explicit exception for cases of public safety.

    The operative language of the bill reads as follows:

    “(1) IN GENERAL.—Subject to paragraph (2), if the Secretary of State, after consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, determines, based on credible facts, that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States should be suspended or restricted to address specific acts that undermine the security or public safety of the United States; human rights; democratic processes or institutions; or international stability, the President may temporarily—

    “(A) suspend the entry of any aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants; or

    “(B) impose any restrictions on the entry of aliens that the President considers to be appropriate.

    What it does is prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion, require notification of Congress when a ban is instituted, require periodic reporting, and allows judicial review of such entry blocks by people in the United States who they harm.

    This bill was introduced in *April 2019,* has not been amended since, and has nothing to do with the travel bans related to COVID-19.

    Basically the White House is lying to its supporters again, to maintain their rabid state of hysteria. It’s about the only thing this White House does well.

    Dave (1bb933)

  253. I guessing their geniuses weren’t obsessing over impeachment while infections were ramping.

    Munroe (dd6b64) — 3/19/2020 @ 4:50 pm

    You’ve attempted this argument like 100 times now and it’s still hilarious. Keep it up. It’s the impeachment’s fault that the Trump virus happened lol. We should have just let Trump collude with Russia on national TV because that’s the only way Trump could have done a good job carefully building an administration of pros who aren’t yes-men and will really make sure Trump hotels are everywhere … er I mean coronavirus tests… yeah.

    Meanwhile Trump is Putin’s b____ right now. Literally as we speak, Trump is nursing his a diet coke and wondering how literally every decision he makes affects Putin.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  254. Dave always calls SARS the Bush virus, so at least he’s sounding consistently stupid.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  255. yeah I agree with nk that ‘trump virus’ sounds idiotic.

    I’ll try to knock it off but I have zero impulse control today.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  256. “Trump impeachment Vindman Roger Stone Amy Berman Jackson virus” sounds better.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  257. Plus, the Trump virus was from the 80’s when Trump was fighting his own “personal Vietnam”.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  258. I also considered calling the Chinese virus the “Trump virus but, now that I saw how stupid it sounded when Dave said it, I’m glad I refrained.

    Oh c’mon nk!

    Everything looks, feels, sounds, smells and tastes better with the Trump brand on it.

    Let the sh*thole countries keep their “China Virus” made in some malarial third-world sweatshop.

    Now that America is great again, we’re going upscale!

    Dave (1bb933)

  259. @245
    …. The whole thing about having a single person in charge, I’m going to call BS. That comes as a single point of failure…..
    As we’ve seen with Trump, the buck never stops there-unless it goes into his pocket. It’s everybody’ else’s fault.

    RipMurdock (18cf88)

  260. This Is Not Sustainable

    Obviously, a self-inflected depression can’t be the solution to the coronavirus for very long. J. P. Morgan is projecting a 14 percent contraction in the U.S. in the second quarter. How long can anyone endure that? We’re going to need a robust testing, tracking, and isolation regime, surge capacity at hospitals, and (hopefully) new therapies to bear the burden of this sooner rather than later, because what we are doing right now is blighting the lives of millions and millions of people, and a $1,000 check from the government is only going to go so far.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/coronavirus-measures-not-sustainable/

    Yup.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  261. I have yet to see any reports of actions the President has refused to take, but several where he was accused of acting too soon.

    The potential of some pandemic was foreseeable. It is the President’s responsiblity to ensure some sort of preparation and planning was in existence in the first place, and to ensure the CDC, FDA, and other parts of the federal bureaucracy began focusing on it when it started in China. His administration should have realized the lack of PPEs and ventilators might be a problem before the pandemic started, and have solutions in place already. Instead, we seem to be improvising and trying to catch up.

    I have no idea what planning might have been done under Obama, or Bush, or Clinton. They too might have had no plans. But their possible lack of planning does not excuse Trump’s lack of planning. He’s been in office for thirty eight months now.

    Kishnevi (8f6228)

  262. Plus, the Trump virus was from the 80’s when Trump was fighting his own “personal Vietnam”.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/19/2020 @ 5:00 pm

    LOL he really is a truly lame president.

    I’ve heard it called the beer virus and chuckled.

    As stupid as it is, Biden’s ghouls are furiously brainstorming the most shameless ways of using it to their advantage. It’s not like Trump “Ted Cruz’s wife is so ugly and his dad killed JFK” has a leg to stand on for decorum if they were to use that.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  263. So, Gavin Newsom now says that half of all Californians will catch this virus in the next 8 weeks. And he’s got a shopping list that he wants Uncle Sugar to pay for.

    Gov. Gavin Newsom on Thursday asked Congress for $1 billion in federal funds to support the state’s medical response to the novel coronavirus, which he expects will infect more than half of all Californians.

    The state projects that 25.5 million people in California will be infected with the coronavirus over an eight-week period, Newsom said in a letter sent to President Trump on Wednesday requesting the deployment of the USNS Mercy Hospital Ship to the port of Los Angeles through Sept. 1.

    In a separate letter sent to the leaders of the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives, Newsom said the financial aid is critical to the state’s ability to procure ventilators and other medical supplies, activate state-run hospitals, deploy mobile hospitals and meet other healthcare needs.

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-19/gavin-newsom-california-1-billion-federal-aid-coronavirus

    You might wonder why you are sheltering in place without toilet paper, if you’re going to get it anyway.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  264. NeverTrump and theLeft are playing pocket pool at the thought they might be able to use the Wuhancoronavirus to achieve orgas… their most fervent, totalitarian hopes and dreams

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  265. @254. Took her long enough but timing is everything and it’s good cover to hit the silk an bail from the bailout.

    Given the changes of fortune for you-know-who and JoeyBee’s pledge to skirt chase, look for a ‘fall guy’ to crave ‘more time with his family in Indiana’ to get replaced by a ‘fall girl.’

    Not sure bet… yet, but she’s likely number one on the runway for a gig of some kind. She’s got history w/our Captain already.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  266. @258. That’s been my guess for some time but it all depended on if/when Nikki hit the silk.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  267. Dave (1bb933) — 3/19/2020 @ 4:26 pm

    The first cases of the corona Trump virus … in the United States and in South Korea were recorded on exactly the same day.

    And yet the South Koreans are well past the peak of the curve of new infections, down from 800/day a couple [of] weeks ago to 200/day now, while ours are currently doubling every two days.

    Are their geniuses just more stable than ours?

    They learned their lessons from past outbreaks. We didn’t. They don’t have any issues with some widespread surveillance programs and government interference not only in business but restrictions on civil liberties. We’ve got a lot of people like Gryph who won’t cooperate with anything the guv’ment suggests and like you who want to talk about nazis and makes lists about how orange isn’t the new black.

    frosty (f27e97)

  268. @152-
    Also, I’m 99% convinced that Tulsi’s next position is as a commentator on Fox. There she will play the role of apostate Democrat who criticizes everything the party does.
    Nah. She will work for Sputnik News, Rossiya Segodnya, or RT, interviewing fellow travelers like Jill Stein or Bernie Sanders and hobnobbing with Putin.

    rip mudock (d2a2a8)

  269. Much more about hydroxychloroquine in the news today. It’s my prayer that this and a few others will help defeat Wuhancoronavirus.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  270. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/19/2020 @ 5:40 pm

    You might wonder why you are sheltering in place without toilet paper, if you’re going to get it anyway.

    I can’t speak for anyone in CA. I’m trying to delay the spread in hopes that when I do get it if I need critical medical care there will still be something available.

    frosty (f27e97)

  271. Trump impeachment Vindman Roger Stone Amy Berman Jackson virus” sounds better.

    You were trolling right along then, just as now. Worthless.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  272. The potential of some pandemic was foreseeable. It is the President’s responsiblity to ensure some sort of preparation and planning was in existence in the first place, and to ensure the CDC, FDA, and other parts of the federal bureaucracy began focusing on it when it started in China.

    “When it started in China” When was that? Two months after it really started in China? Remember that it wasn’t until Dec 31 that ANYONE reported ANYTHING about a new respiratory illness. As late as Jan 14, the WHO was still saying that human-to-human transmission was unproven. On Jan 17, the CDC starts screening passengers coming from Wuhan, noting that the Chinese are not doing anything at their end.

    First US diagnosis Jan 21 in Seattle. Trump states at this time that China has things under control. Trump discusses matter with Xi on Jan 27, still thinks it will be handled by the Chinese. Offers to help. Still working with the Chinese up until Jan 31, when he suspends all flights from China.

    Up to now, where is Trump wrong? You may not use hindsight in your answer.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  273. Obviously, Trump should ahve called the Chinese leadership lying sacks-of-spit On Jan 21st, but he refrained, using his noted diplomacy and genteel manner to keep the Chinese engaged.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  274. “NeverTrump and theLeft are playing pocket pool at the thought they might be able to use the Wuhancoronavirus to achieve orgas… their most fervent, totalitarian hopes and dreams”

    You’re projecting.

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  275. Much more about hydroxychloroquine in the news today. It’s my prayer that this and a few others will help defeat Wuhancoronavirus

    Lots, and lots, and lots, and the consensus is, from the head of the FDA standing next to Trump…and Trump, maybe, maybe not, but there is no evidence that it does, but we’ll see.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  276. Send a $5000 check to every address that got a census form.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  277. Trump’s biggest failure was his extreme reluctance to turn the economy off. Assuming that turning the economy off was a good idea. Apparently, it won’t help anyone in California, as the virus is going to get 25 million people there, says Newsom.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  278. Send a $5000 check to every address that got a census form.

    We got three.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  279. @287. And here we always thought it was Eric.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  280. Other than it’s already being used in several countries with success, no evidence at all. But cross your fingers, klink. Keep hope alive.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  281. Before Virus Outbreak, a Cascade of Warnings Went Unheeded
    The outbreak of the respiratory virus began in China and was quickly spread around the world by air travelers, who ran high fevers. In the United States, it was first detected in Chicago, and 47 days later, the World Health Organization declared a pandemic. By then it was too late: 110 million Americans were expected to become ill, leading to 7.7 million hospitalized and 586,000 dead.

    That scenario, code-named “Crimson Contagion” and imagining an influenza pandemic, was simulated by the Trump administration’s Department of Health and Human Services in a series of exercises that ran from last January to August.

    The simulation’s sobering results — contained in a draft report dated October 2019 that has not previously been reported — drove home just how underfunded, underprepared and uncoordinated the federal government would be for a life-or-death battle with a virus for which no treatment existed.

    The draft report, marked “not to be disclosed,” laid out in stark detail repeated cases of “confusion” in the exercise. Federal agencies jockeyed over who was in charge. State officials and hospitals struggled to figure out what kind of equipment was stockpiled or available. Cities and states went their own ways on school closings.

    Many of the potentially deadly consequences of a failure to address the shortcomings are now playing out in all-too-real fashion across the country. And it was hardly the first warning for the nation’s leaders. Three times over the past four years the U.S. government, across two administrations, had grappled in depth with what a pandemic would look like, identifying likely shortcomings and in some cases recommending specific action. ……

    But officials have declined to say why the administration was so slow to roll out broad testing or to move faster, as the simulations all indicated it should, to urge social distancing and school closings.

    Asked at his news briefing on Thursday about the government’s preparedness, Mr. Trump responded: “Nobody knew there would be a pandemic or epidemic of this proportion. Nobody has ever seen anything like this before.”

    The work done over the past five years, however, demonstrates that the government had considerable knowledge about the risks of a pandemic and accurately predicted the very types of problems Mr. Trump is now scrambling belatedly to address. …..

    rip mudock (d2a2a8)

  282. @288. Good. The more you get to spend now, the less goes to the Israeli later.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  283. Sissy-b*tch Newsom is just the sort of math wiz Democrats crave.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  284. Up here, we’re getting total lockdown talk (one already did it) from two lady mayors with large gay constituencies. Not old people. Can you say Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome?

    nk (1d9030)

  285. Now it’s just $1200????? WTF- the dudes pitching this are wearing suits and shoes that likely cost more than that. $1200 doesn’t go very far in 2020 USA, especial in metropolitan areas.

    These Congesscritter clowns are so incredibly out of touch w/life in real world America.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  286. Up to now, where is Trump wrong? You may not use hindsight in your answer.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/19/2020 @ 5:53 pm

    I think mainly he failed by setting up an administration of yes men, where ethics and even saying there are problems with decision making leads to termination. That culture can be pervasive and leads to slower, stupider results. And of course, this is what I thought before we had hindsight that anything like this would happen.

    The hatred Trump fans are expressing is so sad. They actually think that if you criticize Trump you are subhuman, that you would want want this virus kill millions. It shouldn’t be necessary to insist all information is a conspiracy to support a leader, but we’ve seen that kind of fascist loyalty before.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  287. Other than it’s already being used in several countries with success, no evidence at all. But cross your fingers, klink. Keep hope alive.

    Please, provide a single instance of a documented medical professional claiming that it does what you say. There’s a reason why every single medical delivery organization globally has said that it’s interesting, but that’s it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  288. The esteemed Dr. Michael K posted elsewhere:

    “The “Hot Spots” in the country right now are three cities run by Democrats with high population densities. Washington, California and New York are the states.

    What do they have in common besides Democrat mayors?
    Sanctuary cities?-check.
    Lots of illegals?-check.
    International airports with lots of flights from China?-check.“

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  289. Nikki Haley, formerly the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and governor of South Carolina, has resigned from Boeing’s board of directors because she opposes the aircraft giant’s request for a $60 billion government bailout, the company said in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing..

    With the airline industry decimated by the coronavirus pandemic, Boeing has asked the federal government for $60 billion in loan guarantees and other liquidity for the aerospace manufacturing industry.

    “Ambassador Haley informed the Company that, as a matter of philosophical principle, she does not believe that the Company should seek support from the Federal Government, and therefore decided to resign from the board,” Boeing said in the filing.

    Haley, who joined the board last April, stepped down on Monday.

    ‘Course, OTOH, she overlooks that Boeing is a prime DoD contractor with…. the Federal Government.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  290. Newsom’s number was the projection *in the absence of countermeasures*:

    A spokesman for the governor, Nathan Click, told the Chronicle that the projection doesn’t account for current efforts to stunt the spread of the disease, such as the three-week “shelter in place” order for the San Francisco Bay Area.

    It would appear he was high-balling the Feds in hopes of snagging a hospital ship.

    Dave (1bb933)

  291. They actually think that if you criticize Trump you are subhuman, that you would want want this virus kill millions.

    No, they may however think that if you criticize him for anything you could possibly criticize him for, true or false, that it’s a problem between you and your resentments.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  292. “ China has found that chloroquine is effective against COVID-19, the state-owned Xinhua news agency reported on February 17. Countries including China, South Korea, and Belgium have added chloroquine to their treatment guidelines.

    US physicians don’t appear to be waiting for data either. Prescriptions for chloroquine have surged, according to recent tracking data from IQVIA cited by Raymond James. For the weeks of February 21, February 28, and March 6, weekly prescriptions grew from 531 to 957 to 1,290.

    Doctors in the US have broad authority to prescribe approved medications for so-called off-label uses, or conditions that the drug isn’t approved to treat.

    In the past month, the UK has added both chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to a list of drugs that drug wholesalers cannot export because UK patients need them and exporting them may lead to a shortage in the UK.”

    https://www.businessinsider.com/malaria-pill-chloroquine-tested-as-coronavirus-treatment-2020-3?amp

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  293. Those Carolinians, not just Princess Nimrata, are some rugged individualists:

    http://news.yahoo.com/lindsey-graham-mark-meadows-pushing-192345485.html

    urbanleftbehind (43dc5a)

  294. ‘Course, OTOH, she overlooks that Boeing is a prime DoD contractor with…. the Federal Government.

    Are you saying that making planes and spacecraft for the government is somehow dishonest?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  295. ‘Course, OTOH, she overlooks that Boeing is a prime DoD contractor with…. the Federal Government.

    Yes, because providing valuable, sophisticated equipment as consideration for money pursuant to in a negotiated contract is the same thing as accepting a bailout for nothing.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  296. Up to now, where is Trump wrong? You may not use hindsight in your answer.

    First, and foremost, having a plan for pandemics in place well before now. And start putting it to work on Jan 21, “just in case” the Chinese didn’t have it under control (which he could have done quite diplomatically, without stepping on any Chinese toes).

    It seems Obama had no plan. But Obama hasn’t been POTUS for over three years.

    Kishnevi (8f6228)

  297. So, Nikki Haley joins the board 11 months ago, having nothing to do with ANY of the decisions that got Boeing between the dog and the hydrant, and now she wants out. She must have decided that it was a bad deal some time ago, and this was her exit.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  298. @300. Local officials in San Diego County gave an ‘infection projection’ of 30% the other day– that tallies to one million people– their concern being that there was no where near that many hospital beds in the county– though they did not mention any military medical facilities of which there are many in the SD area. The Mercy is based in SD but Newsom wants it to sail up the coast and anchor off LA. Fvck him. Let LA County taxpayers manage their own sewer.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  299. More testing, more people, higher density…

    Also, California isn’t a city.

    Cynthiana Kentucky has twice the infection rate as New York City.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  300. Well, Trump may not have done this as well as a Cruz, or a Romney or even Bill Clinton, but for what he is, he’s doing OK. And again, my biggest problem is that the self-inflicted damage of the response — a response they had to drag Trump to accept — may well be worse than the problem it solves.

    Let’s say that it saves the lives of 200,000 previously unwell people at a cost of $2 trillion. That’s $10 million apiece. I could argue that it’s too much. Especially when that $2 trillion is NOT saving someone else it might have.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  301. “First, and foremost, having a plan for pandemics in place well before now. And start putting it to work on Jan 21”
    Kishnevi (8f6228) — 3/19/2020 @ 6:29 pm

    Yeah, Jan 21 — so that after he’s impeached and removed, someone could seamlessly pick it up from there.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  302. @308: But infection does not equal “hospital bed.” Some of those infected may not even know they are infected as the virus doesn’t seem to even give kids the sniffles.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  303. Yeah, Jan 21 — so that after he’s impeached and removed, someone could seamlessly pick it up from there.

    Yes, he was distracted, wasn’t he? I could just as glibly say that it was the Democrat’s fault for not suspending the impeachment process to let him get to work.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  304. Newsom is doing a presser now:

    did he just order all CA residents to stay at home??????

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  305. “A lot of people say” (as our President would put it) that Nikki cut Boeing some sweetheart deals during her time as governor and the lucrative board gig was Boeing’s way of showing their gratitude.

    Dave (1bb933)

  306. “Yeah, Jan 21 — so that after he’s impeached and removed, someone could seamlessly pick it up from there.”

    Like Pence? They guy he put in charge?

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  307. I think her motive was more to have a bunch of jobs in her state. Governors do that you know.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  308. So, Nikki Haley joins the board 11 months ago, having nothing to do with ANY of the decisions that got Boeing between the dog and the hydrant, and now she wants out. She must have decided that it was a bad deal some time ago, and this was her exit.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/19/2020 @ 6:29 pm

    She’s played her cards well, maybe a little too well (like Cruz of late). The GOP could do a lot worse obviously.

    And if we’re going to need a crisis handling president who better than a Boeing boardmember?

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  309. Newsom: ‘A 56% attack rate but the overwhelming majority of us will be fine.’

    My God, CA’s governor is a bigger jerk than Schwarzenegger.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  310. It seems Obama had no plan. But Obama hasn’t been POTUS for over three years.

    Kishnevi (8f6228) — 3/19/2020 @ 6:29 pm

    That’s not Obama’s fault though… those birthers wasted his time so he never got around to it. I like to call this argument the Munroe Doctrine.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  311. I don’t even …. He didn’t take time off from playing golf and jerking off until he lost his bragging rights in the stock market, and that is a fact, Jack, and even then he called calls for him to do something a Democrat hoax to bring down the stock market and make him look back.

    nk (1d9030)

  312. Kish, at least you can go to the beach.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  313. People are going crazy with skateboards. Someone told me that in the subway, children were sliding them (across the subway car) at 35 miles per hour (?) and in the park tonight a woman in her twenties or so, hit my ankle from the side with one. Sorry she said. And asked whether I was all right.

    I seem to have recovered from the pain.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  314. Trump administration’s plea to states: Keep mum about unemployment stats.

    The Trump administration is asking state labor officials to delay releasing the precise number of unemployment claims they are fielding, an indication of how uneasy policymakers are about further roiling a stock market already plunging in response to the coronavirus outbreak.

    In an email sent Wednesday, the Labor Department instructed state officials to only “provide information using generalities to describe claims levels (very high, large increase)” until the department releases the total number of national claims next Thursday.

    The email, which was shared with The New York Times, noted that the reports were monitored closely by financial markets and should therefore remain embargoed. “States should not provide numeric values to the public,” wrote Gay Gilbert, the administrator of the department’s Office of Employment Insurance…..

    ….. President Trump has privately expressed irritation at the dire predictions of some of his advisers, most notably when Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin told lawmakers that unemployment could reach 20 percent this year…..

    RipMurdock (18cf88)

  315. I was told of a elderly woman in her 70s who was sent back from the hospital ater about a week. She “contaminated” the entire building.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  316. Breaking-
    California governor issues statewide stay-at-home order
    California Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) issued a statewide stay-at-home order starting Thursday evening. “This is a moment we need to make tough decisions,” Newsom said at an online news conference. It is the strongest statewide restriction yet aimed at stemming the spread of the coronavirus. The announcement follows similar orders issued in the past few days across the San Francisco Bay area and Los Angeles.

    RipMurdock (18cf88)

  317. 323
    Fort Lauderdale and Hollywood closed all beaches a couple of days ago, in part to head off spring break crowds. The rest of the county followed suit. Miami-Dade got around to it yesterday. (Those beach crowds on TV seem to be from the Panhandle aka the Redneck Riviera, although the Keys may still be open for tourists.)

    Worst part is that overnight lows are in the low 70s, highs in the mid80s, no rain. In other words, perfect weather for the beach…

    The parks are also closed. I’m reduced to walks through my neighborhood.

    Kishnevi (8f6228)

  318. Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/19/2020 @ 6:14 pm

    The hatred Trump fans are expressing is so sad. They actually think that if you criticize Trump you are subhuman, that you would want this virus [to] kill millions. It shouldn’t be necessary to insist all information is a conspiracy to support a leader, but we’ve seen that kind of fascist loyalty before.

    As someone who you specifically have called a Trump-humper and who is has also been saying this is a serious virus and trying to shoot down ridiculous conspiracies where exactly do I fit on your list of deplorables?

    The Trump/neverTrump banter was fun when the day wasn’t full of pandemic news. But the whiny mean girl schtick is getting old. I do think you’re rooting for things to be just bad enough to get he who has forgotten what day it is elected and I can do that without calling you sub-human.

    There’s a lot to criticize Trump for but this comment is just you trolling in the same thread where you’re also complaining about trolls.

    frosty (f27e97)

  319. @327. Yeah, but only in English. The hacking, coughing, illegals didn’t get the word.

    And on a Thursday night,too- not waiting until the end of the business week on Friday is utterly idiotic.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  320. Breaking-
    Trump eyes grounding jets, halting stock trading, and ordering shelter in place
    The Trump administration, moving quickly to halt the spread of the coronavirus, is seriously considering grounding all passenger air traffic for up to 30 days, temporarily halting stock trading on Wall Street, and imposing a shelter-in-place rule, according to officials.

    Key officials have begun alerting industry leaders, Capitol Hill, and agencies that the “radical” plan could come early next week if the warlike efforts to stop the spread of the virus fail. …..

    RipMurdock (18cf88)

  321. And if we’re going to need a crisis handling president who better than a Boeing boardmember?

    That doesn’t work in her favor; her age, gender and ethnicity do.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  322. “Also, California isn’t a city.

    Cynthiana Kentucky has twice the infection rate as New York City.”

    It was made clear that it – and the other two – are states.

    Cynthiana KY? Okay then… chortle, chortle…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  323. RipMurdock (18cf88) — 3/19/2020 @ 7:07 pm

    The Examiner chose to label that as “Opinion”. So I wouldn’t put much faith in that report.

    Kishnevi (8f6228)

  324. Col H, Dr K referred to cities and Democratic mayors.

    Kishnevi (8f6228)

  325. As someone who you specifically have called a Trump-humper and who is has also been saying this is a serious virus and trying to shoot down ridiculous conspiracies where exactly do I fit on your list of deplorables?

    The Trump/neverTrump banter was fun when the day wasn’t full of pandemic news. But the whiny mean girl schtick is getting old. I do think you’re rooting for things to be just bad enough to get he who has forgotten what day it is elected and I can do that without calling you sub-human.

    There’s a lot to criticize Trump for but this comment is just you trolling in the same thread where you’re also complaining about trolls.

    frosty (f27e97) — 3/19/2020 @ 7:02 pm

    I called you a Trump humper? I can’t recall using a term like that. If I did I apologize because that’s crass, but I really think I’d call you something else.

    I do think you’re rooting for things to be just bad enough to get

    That’s a disgusting sentiment. I hope your family and my family are safe. You pulled this straight out of your imagination, and it only reflects who you are.

    I’m sorry that Trump keeps doing a terrible job. But he has indeed done a terrible job. That his fans are so eager to pile on anyone pointing out the actual facts here: that he says he always knew how bad this pandemic was, that he blew it off as nothing, that he lied to us that it’s nothing, that he has gutted his administration of the people it needed to tell him he’s wrong… these are just the facts. Pile on about how evil I am, in your imagination, that I want people in my country to die. That’s how Trump’s devoted fans must see all information to keep supporting Trump, because otherwise, you can’t.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  326. And for the record, Frosty, your comment proved me right. There’s no debating that you guys really want Trump’s critics to be pure evil, hoping for death. You and one of the other guys (can’t keep track of who is who and I realize some of you are using sockpuppets) have said as much quite clearly. It would be harder to admit that Trump has made some serious mistakes than it is to assert Trump criticism is evil.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  327. I like to call this argument the Munroe Doctrine.

    /thread

    Dave (1bb933)

  328. If there isn’t a button on Newsom’s foot there certainly must be one on his azz– the twit wouldn’t pause and stop talking for half an hour–even to take a breath.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  329. Hes probably trying to avoid a cough-on-air. If there is a shut off button, ask DJT Jr to ask his current squeeze.

    urbanleftbehind (43dc5a)

  330. Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/19/2020 @ 7:19 pm

    And for the record, Frosty, your comment proved me right. There’s no debating that you guys really want Trump’s critics to be pure evil, hoping for death. You and one of the other guys (can’t keep track of who is who and I realize some of you are using sockpuppets) have said as much quite clearly. It would be harder to admit that Trump has made some serious mistakes than it is to assert Trump criticism is evil.

    I just think you are selfish and shortsighted. I think you can’t set aside your emotions and the same few points you’ve been making in different versions for months is the only pony you know. I never said you were evil. That’s just more over the top projection and hysterical hyperbole. It’s ironic that you don’t see it. In comment after comment, you’ve got to paint anyone who doesn’t share your emotional position in the worst light (projection). You troll and complain about people being trolls (projection). I’ve specifically said criticism is valid but you’ve got to claim I need you to be evil (projection).

    Trump has made some serious mistakes. See that wasn’t too hard. I’ve said it before. I’m sure I’ll say it again. It doesn’t make you evil that you can’t have a discussion about anything else.

    frosty (f27e97)

  331. Frosty, you said I hoped a pandemic was bad, and I appreciate you’re backtracking but that’s extremely evil.

    You often do this thing where you pretend to be a disinterested person and then really get personal, and I guess it’s because you are that sensitive.

    Sorry you are really worried that I keep talking about president trump in discussions about trump. This seems like a problem to you, however it is actually a wonderful thing.

    You and your Trump supporting pals can continue piling on any Trump criticism like you guys do while insisting the people you say such horrible things about are the ‘real’ trolls.

    But you asserted, with absolutely no basis, that I actually want a pandemic to be bad. That’s on you.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  332. To be clear, say it a million times if you want. Fake news, troll, bla bla, whatever. We’re well beyond the point where I am on a side. I gave up when Romney was nominated. The GOP is a joke. The democrats are a joke. The only politically inclined folks who have a problem with me are the zealous partisans on both sides, and both really intensely have a problem with me. I think it’s kinda cool.

    But what you say is on you, not me, frosty.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  333. This seems sure to work:

    Trump administration’s plea to states: Keep mum about unemployment stats.

    The Trump administration is asking state labor officials to delay releasing the precise number of unemployment claims they are fielding, an indication of how uneasy policymakers are about further roiling a stock market already plunging in response to the coronavirus outbreak.

    In an email sent Wednesday, the Labor Department instructed state officials to only “provide information using generalities to describe claims levels (very high, large increase)” until the department releases the total number of national claims next Thursday.

    The email, which was shared with The New York Times, noted that the reports were monitored closely by financial markets and should therefore remain embargoed. “States should not provide numeric values to the public,” wrote Gay Gilbert, the administrator of the department’s Office of Employment Insurance.

    Dave (1bb933)

  334. 342. Frosty pulls the same crap on me.

    “Flattening the curve” will lengthen the amount of time that we have to worry about this pandemic before it burns out. I said nothing and am saying nothing about what I hope will happen. That’s a mathematical certainty.

    What I hope will happen is that all of my fellow Americans can get through the CoViD-19 outbreak with a minimum of disruption to their lives. That is what I honestly hope for everyone regardless of age, location, or gender. To accuse me of saying anything otherwise is utterly defamatory.

    Gryph (08c844)

  335. 336. I’ve called Frosty a trump humper on more than one occasion. I guess we nevertrump folks look all the same to him, eh?

    Gryph (08c844)

  336. @340. It really should have been left up to the local municipalities and county administrators familiar with their communities and who are much closer to ‘street level’ to manage this– and frankly they were doing a pretty good job, too.

    ‘The population of California is roughly 40 million. The economy of California is the largest in the United States, boasting a $3.137 trillion gross state product as of 2019. In total, over 10% of Fortune 1000 companies were based in California in 2018, the most of any state. If California were its own nation, it would be the fifth largest economy in the world. – source, wikiUSA

    Newsom’s action was a Sacramento hit job; political: he threw sand in the gears to stick it to Trump.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  337. “That’s not Obama’s fault though… those birthers wasted his time so he never got around to it.”
    Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/19/2020 @ 6:45 pm

    The 5+ years free of post birther bliss wasn’t enough time for Obama, but zero weeks free of impeachment nonsense was plenty of time for Trump. Racist.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  338. Gryph 2020, too bad the Constitution precludes you from selecting born Canuck Evangeline Lilly as your VP. No Sarc.

    urbanleftbehind (43dc5a)

  339. Gryph,

    I have been thinking about your concern the last few days. It is going to be pretty unsustainable to keep this kind of isolation going. I’m an unusual case personally, but economies have a way of snowballing.

    But I think we’re mainly wondering what happens in a month or two, when the real problem is what happens in the fall and winter, when we’re all exhausted of the story, maybe a few of us are seeing the economy come back, and don’t want to hear about any more social distancing.

    Whether your approach is right or wrong, a lot of people are going to have a real problem doing this stuff for too long, and a lot of people are going to have other problems. My investments are way off from where they were (I’m a long way from planning to spend them, but for some this is a clear and present problem). Meanwhile we have politicians selling high and lying to us about the problem. It’s hard for those same politicians to expect the kind of trust some of these measures require.

    And Kevin’s right… we’re going to have a huge shortage of medical staff and I’m not seeing any effort to improve it. All the hospital nurses I know are working more than 70 hours this week and this thing has barely begun.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  340. The 5+ years free of post birther bliss wasn’t enough time for Obama, but zero weeks free of impeachment nonsense was plenty of time for Trump. Racist.

    Munroe (dd6b64) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:05 pm

    Trump didn’t sign up for “bliss”. he signed up to be the leader of the free world. A world full of problems. This is a guy who has settled (losing) so many lawsuits regarding his moral turpitude that he knew his administration would involve scandal.

    You are correct that Trump has not had a single week free of accusations. That’s what we should have thought about before nominating him. Maybe he wasn’t up to George W Bush levels of handling pressure and making decisions. Most men aren’t.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  341. Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/19/2020 @ 7:47 pm

    Frosty, you said I hoped a pandemic was bad, and I appreciate you’re backtracking but that’s extremely evil.

    You often do this thing where you pretend to be a disinterested person and then really get personal, and I guess it’s because you are that sensitive.

    Well, I didn’t say you wanted it to be bad or kills millions of people, etc. This is just you projecting again. I said you wanted it to be bad enough to get Biden elected. It would probably be more correct to say you want it bad enough to get Trump removed. This isn’t me backtracking. This is me pointing out that you are generally guilty of the things you complain about Trumpers doing.

    You often do this thing were you say how horrible other people are and then get really sensitive when someone turns it back on you. If this wasn’t so common it would be more effective. You often do the “you mad bro” thing too. Also over used and not really effective.

    I’m not mad or upset that something you said applies to me. I get it. You don’t like Trump. I’m just pointing out that you are a broken record.

    frosty (f27e97)

  342. 348, yup California is at least 3 if not 5 physical States, let alone the counties and metros.

    Just for knowledge/research reasons, the US should exempt a few states out of a national commercial lockdown, or at least not extend it to thus-far barely-effected states (..BUT those states SHOULD restrict travel into and out off).

    Indiana just implemented a three week quarantine so of course our worsers in Illinois (“cant let dose rednecks outpoint is”) will probably up the ante beyond Cook County.

    urbanleftbehind (43dc5a)

  343. The 5+ years free of post birther bliss wasn’t enough time for Obama, but zero weeks free of impeachment nonsense was plenty of time for Trump. Racist.

    Yeah, it’s not like Trump was going golfing, or jetting all over the country to attend cult rallies.

    Trump’s 29th Trip To Mar-a-Lago Brings Golf Tab To 334 Years Of Presidential Salary

    President Donald Trump returned to Mar-a-Lago on Friday evening [note: February 14] for the 29th golf-related trip of his presidency to his for-profit Palm Beach, Florida, resort, raising his total taxpayer golf tab to $133.8 million.

    That figure translates to 334 years of the presidential salary that Trump and his supporters frequently boast he is not taking.

    During Barack Obama’s presidency, Trump frequently claimed he was playing golf too much and at too great an expense to taxpayers.

    Dave (1bb933)

  344. their possible lack of planning does not excuse Trump’s lack of planning. He’s been in office for thirty eight months now.

    Kishnevi (8f6228) — 3/19/2020 @ 5:17 pm

    And for 40 of those months dems have been persuing hoax investigations, against the President. Not like running the country is any big shakes. I guess the CDC is too stupid to understand pandemics, Thats why we elect Presidents. That $6.6 billion cant be wasted on gaming a world wide pandemic. There are guns to count, dammit.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  345. “The 5+ years free of post birther bliss wasn’t enough time for Obama”

    Trump was birther until Sep 2016.

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  346. “And for 40 of those months dems have been persuing hoax investigations, against the President. Not like running the country is any big shakes. I guess the CDC is too stupid to understand pandemics, Thats why we elect Presidents. That $6.6 billion cant be wasted on gaming a world wide pandemic. There are guns to count, dammit.”

    Where does the buck stop, Iowan?

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  347. @345 And all I’ve asked is whether you can explain how getting it over with quickly doesn’t overwhelm the healthcare system and create a different sort of problem. If you want to make a cost benefit argument make one. But just implying that It’s obvious isn’t the same thing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  348. It’s also beyond ludicrous to suggest that impeachment was some huge drain on his time. The fix was in from day one, he never had to testify, and all he needed to do was let his lackeys (who were praying he would keep his mouth shut) go through the motions before making a mockery of the constitution.

    How much time do figure his daily hate-tweets at Adam Schiff took him to compose?

    Dave (1bb933)

  349. “Maybe he wasn’t up to George W Bush levels of handling pressure and making decisions. Most men aren’t.”
    Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:09 pm

    Yeah, quite inspiring when you really think about it.
    https://youtu.be/7z8KWotrMzQ

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  350. Bush was a great president and it should be a source of inspiration because even as many accused Bush of planning 9/11 or knowing it was going to happen (Trump said this a lot) Bush managed to unite us in a really bad moment. Pay attention to the folks who insist Trump critics are of ‘the left’ but also can’t stand to see W praised.

    It’s also beyond ludicrous to suggest that impeachment was some huge drain on his time. The fix was in from day one, he never had to testify, and all he needed to do was let his lackeys (who were praying he would keep his mouth shut) go through the motions before making a mockery of the constitution.

    How much time do figure his daily hate-tweets at Adam Schiff took him to compose?

    Dave (1bb933) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:27 pm

    I gotta admit I think paying off Stormy took up more of Trump’s time than Nunes ever did.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  351. “Where does the buck stop, Iowan?”
    Davethulhu (861cf8) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:22 pm

    Until the market fell from its Feb all time high, it stopped with Obama.

    Munroe (dd6b64)

  352. Gryph (08c844) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:01 pm

    336. I’ve called Frosty a trump humper on more than one occasion. I guess we nevertrump folks look all the same to him, eh?

    Ah, nice implication. I see what you did there. Clever. Ironic but clever.

    Funny thing, since I can’t see you I get to form an opinion of you just based on the comments you post. How would that be written, nevertrump folks write the same things or nevertrump folks post the same comments? That just doesn’t have the same implied zing though.

    frosty (f27e97)

  353. 351. In viral outbreaks, the importance of medical staff is vastly overstated. A bacterial disease is one thing, viruses another. When it comes to CoViD19, You can treat symptoms and put people on life support, but whether someone can survive this thing depends pretty much entirely on how likely they are to survive it running its course.

    I don’t believe CoViD-19 is nothing. And believe it or not, I’ve made changes. There are people I haven’t seen in weeks because they don’t feel comfortable with the level of casualness I’ve been treating this outbreak with. And I don’t hold that against them. If I’ve said it once, I’ve said it a hundred times, I’ve been conscientiously staying away from hospitals and nursing homes (although I don’t really have anyone to visit at this point in time anyway). But I’m sure not going to stop going to work voluntarily. I’m not even sure how much longer I’m going to have a job to go to, and my options for getting groceries, let alone going out to eat, are getting fewer and fewer.

    But I think what makes some people think that I am treating this outbreak too casually, is that I’m not panicking. And because I am not blind with fear, I question the wisdom and utility of “flattening the curve,” at least as concerns legislative policy. High-risk individuals are perfectly capable of socially distancing themselves should they so choose, and I think that makes a lot more sense than shutting down the entire nation’s economy for an indeterminate period of time.

    This all being the case, what most people consider “social distancing” comes rather naturally to me, anyway. That could be why I can approach this more casually than some. I go to work for a few hours, come home, and stay home. That’s a pretty typical day, I guess. I’m not a party animal and I get anxious in big crowds. Generally, to be part of any group bigger than 20, it has to be something my wife pulls me into.

    So here I am. Do I accept a heretofore unprecedented level of government intervention which almost by definition constitutes economic suicide, knowing that a third of our total population will probably test positive for CoViD-19 before it burns out regardless of what measures are taken? Part of me does want this to be as painful as possible — economically or otherwise — so we can finally get past the illusion of Pax Americana and see our government for what it really is.

    Gryph (08c844)

  354. 359. Repeat after me, Frosty: There are no cures for viral diseases. The economic hit to America will be less if the outbreak burns out more quickly. Whether we have enough hospital beds and ventilators to treat all CoViD-19 patients suffering at the same time, the R0 is still 3 and will continue to infect new patients until we either find a vaccine, or immunity reaches the threshold naturally. The more you flatten the curve, the farther out the curve will go before the effective infection rate (r0) becomes 0.

    You’re asking me for a cost-benefit analysis, and I’m telling you that economic suicide is not necessarily a foregone conclusion. The only fait accompli at this point is that 1/3 of our population is at risk of testing positive. Not even Chloroquine can prevent that. The question is, do we get it over with and get on with our lives, or drag it out under some false pretense that we can somehow save lives without an effective vaccine?

    Gryph (08c844)

  355. “Col H, Dr K referred to cities and Democratic mayors.“

    Kishnevi, this is the part that clarifies:

    “The “Hot Spots” in the country right now are three cities run by Democrats with high population densities. Washington, California and New York are the states.”

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  356. Repeat after me, Frosty: There are no cures for viral diseases.

    Maybe you should think about what a vaccine is, you know; Mumps, Measles, Rubella, HPV…

    Or how about treatment for things like Hep-B and C, HIV, Influenza, etc.

    Again, reality is conflicting with your lack of knowledge, but you surely do believe, powerfully.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  357. “Part of me does want this to be as painful as possible — economically or otherwise — so we can finally get past the illusion of Pax Americana and see our government for what it really is.”

    Pretty sure you’ll be getting your wish. Handwringing government saviour Tom Wolf issued his order for PA tonight. My branch was furloughed within hours of the announcement. Our entire organization was doing very well. We run branches with fewer than 75 employees per. 95% of our business (100% at my particular location) done by phone and internet. All branches wer getting two complete cleanings per day, everyone following protocols, ZERO problems. Then, this all-knowing piece of authoritarian itshay orders a blanket shutdown.

    Matador (0284e8)

  358. Gryph (08c844) — 3/19/2020 @ 8:44 pm

    F?!$&, I’ve tried to explain this over and over. You can absolutely adjust the R0 by controlling social interactions. R0 is not a fixed number. It’s a measure of how fast the virus moves. There is a natural R0 and you can adjust that with people’s behavior. The best example of this was the Spanish Flu that is believed to have spread above the natural R0 because troops were packed together, in some cases in direct contravention of military rules meant specifically to prevent the rapid spread of illnesses. Let’s do that one again to let it sink in. The US military in 1918 had rules about how many people should be allowed to bunk together to limit the spread of illnesses. The concept of limiting the spread of illnesses isn’t something we invented a couple of weeks ago. There is a town in Italy now that went on an aggressive lockdown and stopped the spread. You can also absolutely modify the mortality numbers by slowing the spread.

    If you lock it down long enough for everyone who has it to either die or recover you can stop it. Whether that is possible in this case is an open question. I’m not sure we can stay on lockdown either but that’s not the problem with your reasoning.

    Hospital access is very important. If you get the virus one way to die is from a cytokine storm. That can be treated but left untreated it can kill you. The virus will also weaken your immune system and expose you to a bacterial infection. That can be treated but left untreated it can kill you.

    I’m having trouble finding a single correct statement in the first paragraph of your comment. Your 1/3 number is also not the best. The most common low end number I’ve seen is 40% and there are several reputable studies that show 40-70%. That 70% is not a small number. We may hit 1/3 with the aggressive reduction strategies.

    I will keep asking you this; if letting everyone get sick at the natural rate is the most cost effective plan why didn’t Trump and Johnson stick with that original plan? Both of them started down the path of just ignoring this and letting it play out exactly like you say. I don’t want to tank the economy and I’m sure Trump and Johnson didn’t want to either given their political positions. Why aren’t they doing what you say?

    frosty (f27e97)

  359. Part of me does want this to be as painful as possible — economically or otherwise — so we can finally get past the illusion of Pax Americana and see our government for what it really is.

    Where you been?

    Reaganomics.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  360. This is what it’s like in an Italian hospital:

    https://vimeo.com/398334975

    It’s sobering. We’re hearing about all these legislators (mostly republican) who knew this would be really bad in January and sold all their stocks while telling the rest of us this was no big deal. It’s going to be a bloodbath in november. I don’t know how much of the GOP’s morality problem can be blamed on Trump. I subscribe to the notion he’s a symptom of the disease. But it’s a huge problem and it really has effectively killed conservatism.

    How would that be written, nevertrump folks write the same things or nevertrump folks post the same comments?

    Nobody really writes like I do. I’m longer winded. If you’re really not able to distinguish, you really aren’t reading my comments. Which I admit is a very good idea.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  361. @373. America traded jobs forging steel for gigs flipping burgers 35 years ago.

    Reaganomics. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  362. America traded jobs forging steel for gigs flipping burgers 35 years ago.

    Flipping hamburgers is an entry-level job.

    My first job was stuffing burritos at a Taco Bell. But I found something better.

    Dave (1bb933)

  363. @375. No, it’s not. Not in 2020.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  364. @373. Goldman Sachs “predicts…”

    Goldman Sachs rec’d $10 billion of the first $125 billion of the $700-plus billion bailout in 2008.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  365. Really looking forward to the CEOs of all these bailed out firms now ‘in a war’ becoming ‘dollar-a-year’ men a la WW2.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  366. Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/19/2020 @ 11:05 pm

    We’re hearing about all these legislators (mostly republican) who knew this would be really bad in January and sold all their stocks while telling the rest of us this was no big deal.

    Is it more than one now? We’ll probably also be hearing about all the politicians who have sweetheart deals with China between now and then too. I’m not sure the press can cover that up, or be believed if they try, given some of the obvious pro-China love we’re hearing there.

    Nobody really writes like I do.

    You have a couple of basic themes you repeat: Trump lies, Trump is a horrible person because of X, Trump supporters are horrible people because of Y. Trumpers say bad things about nevertrumpers in the same comment were you are saying bad thing about Trumpers. Random talking point from msnbc. You’re still stuck on russia gate v1 and you’ll jack that into a thread at consistent intervals. This isn’t fundamentally different from a handful of the no orange man crew no matter how many words you use.

    You keep thinking I’m playing possum. That’s your cognitive dissonance kicking in. I think I’ve said maybe a handful of pro-Trump things during my time here. But you, and some others, can’t understand why I criticize your anti-Trump positions if I’m not secretly a Trumper. It doesn’t seem to occur to you that I criticize your arguments because they are bad and repetitive.

    I don’t care if you don’t like Trump. Enjoy. I really don’t expect you to up your game but is it too much to expect new material?

    frosty (f27e97)

  367. In the late 1980s, I was teaching junior high when the district ordered mandatory testing for tuberculosis on all students and staff.

    Everyone keeps saying the New York has the largest school district in the country, and that might be true in terms of the number of students, because of population density. However, believe it or not, tiny little Edinburg, Texas, has one of the largest school districts in the world, in terms of the number of miles the bus routes run. That’s because the middle and high schools don’t just serve the city, but 16 other small rural towns in the surrounding area.

    There were over 2,000 students in my graduating class in high school, and that was in 1979. A decade later, there were more elementary, middle and high schools, due to population increase. So this was a large target sample spread out over an area bigger than most small states combined.

    The entirety of Manhattan, the big city, wouldn’t fill the airport at DFW. All of New York state wouldn’t fill Hidalgo county. So we’re talking about a testing area that would be larger than the Northeast.

    At the time, I thought it was ridiculous. I mean, tuberculosis? I thought that disease was eradicated in the 1950s. My grandmother suffered from it in the 1940s, and hers was a severe case. The doctor told my grandfather there was no cure–the only path to recovery was lung surgery to remove infected tissue. That’s major surgery. I have no idea what it cost in the late 1940s, but today an operation like that would cost at least $400,000, plus health care afterward.

    Well, my grandfather didn’t have that kind of money, but he was a bank manager. He had the key, knew the vault code, so he just walked in and stole the money. Yeah, he robbed the bank.

    What would you do? This is the love of your life, the mother of your children, and your wife. Are you going to stand aside and watch as she dies from an insufferable disease? No, you rob the bank. Pay the doctor in cash the next day and hope for the best.

    Miraculously, my grandmother survived. She was bedridden for fourteen years, but she lived. In fact, she outlived him. Once his son, Buddy, was old enough to get a job–he dropped out of high school and became a long haul truck drive at the age of 16, which paid enough for to provide for the family.

    Then, my grandfather walked into the police station and confessed. He was a Catholic, and he did what Catholics do–confess and repent. He was sentenced to 20 years, but he actually only served 6 months. He was let out for good behavior. Everyone knew him–he had approved their home and business loans–and they all understood why he did what he did. He stole to save his wife’s life. And that’s that.

    I don’t see anything like that going on here. Show me an honorable man, and I will vote for him.

    Would you vote for a dishonorable man?

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  368. Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 3/20/2020 @ 5:18 am

    I don’t see anything like that going on here.

    I don’t either. We’ve got a lot of sorting out to do.

    frosty (f27e97)

  369. 368. Vaccines are not a cure. They are not treatment. Vaccines serve no function other than accelerating the pace of immunity so that R0 becomes effectively zero without as many people becoming sick in the process. That is not a cure; once you have the disease, you’ll be immune once it runs its course. It can’t be treated or cured in the same sense that bacterial infections are.

    Gryph (08c844)

  370. 370. You can control it by slowing it down. And as soon as you stop social distancing, the R0 will come roaring back until 1/3 of your population has the disease anyway. Your willingness to commit economic suicide is noted.

    Gryph (08c844)

  371. Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 5:42 am

    Your willingness to commit economic suicide is noted.

    If letting everyone get sick at the natural rate is the most cost effective plan why didn’t Trump and Johnson stick with that original plan? Both of them started down the path of just ignoring this and letting it play out exactly like you say. I don’t want to tank the economy and I’m sure Trump and Johnson didn’t want to either given their political positions. Why aren’t they doing what you say?

    frosty (f27e97)

  372. We should be stopping ALL Immigration until this Virus situation is under control and a vaccine is on hand.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  373. 384. That depends on what you mean by “effective.” The most effective plan is to find a safe and effective vaccine. Unfortunately, we don’t really have time. By the time we find one, this particular strain of Corona will probably have already burnt itself out no matter what steps we take. Now if you’re a politician, do you want to be the one to have to say this in an election year?!

    We can isolate the at-risk without committing economic suicide. We can all take common-sense hygiene steps without committing economic suicide. I know because I have, and I am. But I will not stop going to work and being a productive member of society on the basis of a government recommendation.

    Gryph (08c844)

  374. Do you know why, in practical terms, it’s so important to flatten the curve, Gryph?

    It’s so we can mass produce, distribute, and get approvals for chloroquine and other effective anti-viral drugs. We don’t have enough. So that’s why you should, if you weren’t being selfish, isolate yourself as much as possible now, to buy time for that to come online.

    It isn’t just an old people thing either. Lots of young Americans are being badly affected, probably because the American health status sucks, lots of young vape, etc.

    But it’s a about chloroquine and other anti-viral drugs. We need time to get them in place for the numbers we will see.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  375. 328. Kishnevi (8f6228) — 3/19/2020 @ 7:02 pm

    The parks are also closed. I’m reduced to walks through my neighborhood.

    Not in New York City.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  376. Frosty & MAOA , here’s a pretty detailed article that spells out what you’ve been saying in this thread. Based on everything I knew right now I think it’s pretty reasonable.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  377. Here’s the TL:DR

    Summary of the article: Strong coronavirus measures today should only last a few weeks, there shouldn’t be a big peak of infections afterwards, and it can all be done for a reasonable cost to society, saving millions of lives along the way. If we don’t take these measures, tens of millions will be infected, many will die, along with anybody else that requires intensive care, because the healthcare system will have collapsed.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  378. 387. Flattening the curve will not save lives and most importantly, will prolong whatever economic agony we will go through. I fail to understand what flattening the curve has to do with using Chloroquine anyway; it should have been (and to my understanding, could have been) in the hands of doctors to use on high-risk patients weeks ago. The only obstacle to that was (and continues to be) FDA approval processes.

    Businesses are continuing to close and in some places be forcibly shuttered. But in my home town, they are cancelling and/or postponing events that were supposed to happen in mid-April. Even if you do believe that flattening the curve could possibly do any good, that is not a good sign so far away from major population centers.

    Gryph (08c844)

  379. Gryph,

    We don’t know where the virus really is. We won’t until be able to do this in real time until testing is more effective. Did you know, for example, that Albany GA has become a hotspot of infection? Would you expect it? (Albany is, IIRC, the largest city in America that isn’t anywhere near an interstate.)

    If you know where the virus really is, you can take action and get control. Until then, the wise thing is to slow down the spread. You aren’t helping.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  380. 390. As soon as those measures are removed, the virus will come roaring back. Not might. Not could. Will. Nothing that doesn’t reduce R0 to 0 will have any lasting effect, and the only way we’ll get there is with immunity — induced or natural.

    Gryph (08c844)

  381. 392. We know who is getting sick. And if we were to leave it alone, it would eventually burn it out. As for me not helping, if it bothers you that I’m not panicking, that’s your problem. “Knowing where the virus is” won’t reduce its R0 to 0. In fact, we don’t have to know where it is at all. All we have to do is vaccinate fully 2/3 of the population and the virus will burn itself out on induced immunity. If we don’t do that, it will burn itself out on natural immunity. Slowing down the spread slows down the achievement of natural immunity thresholds and prolongs the economic suffering, if not the medical suffering.

    Gryph (08c844)

  382. Gryph,

    Take a look at the article Time123 linked. Also look at the experience of Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea. There is a way to accommodate the need to keep an economy and society moving, without going la la la, in the end we’re all dead anyway. Fatalism can be fatal…not just to you, but to others.

    When I find myself agreeing with Frosty and MAOA, I know it really is a time of pestilence.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  383. Did you know, for example, that Albany GA has become a hotspot of infection? Would you expect it? (Albany is, IIRC, the largest city in America that isn’t anywhere near an interstate.)

    It might have something to do with this:

    Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL) – 103.9 Million Passengers
    Called one of the world’s “most efficient airports,” the Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport sees more passenger traffic than any other airport in the USA. Over 103.9 million people step into the airport each year. Reasons for its popularity include its geographic location and its status as a connection hub. The Atlanta Airport is also a hub for Delta Airlines, one of the largest airlines in the United States.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  384. Meant to blockquote, but you get the idea.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  385. Not in New York City.

    Yay.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  386. Once we have completed what should have been called the Lenten Lockdown i.e. until the Monday after Easter), then there should be staggered stages of increased activity e.g. isolating the at risk until mid-summer, performances and games to no or small audiences, most retail open, restaurants with strict occupancy codes/reservations only.

    Then gradually lift restrictions on crowds in pate June July. In that vein, everyone who wasn’t graduating will have to attend summer school and will advance after a short break to fall.

    urbanleftbehind (74bbbf)

  387. @399, that’s what they laid out in the article.

    Time123 (797615)

  388. As soon as those measures are removed, the virus will come roaring back. Not might. Not could. Will.

    When we have better and more treatments in place, and sufficient quantities of drugs. Most of our raw ingredients for drugs, and often the drugs themselves, are manufactured in China. And we’re not the only customer for these ingredients, it includes people from every other country on Earth.

    Are you being obtuse because you’ve made up your mind because of some psychological block in your head and are not amenable to reason?

    It isn’t even just the fatalities from the drug. It’s the long term damage to the lungs, the heart, the testes and ovaries, the kidneys, etc., of survivors. Do you think THAT will help the economy, Gryph?

    We need treatments in place for the numbers we will see so we must get the numbers down as low as possible until then.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  389. You can’t trust the media. But you can trust the media to be the media…

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/20/biased_press_does_chinas_bidding_on_covid-19.html

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  390. Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 6:38 am

    By the time we find one, this particular strain of Corona will probably have already burnt itself out no matter what steps we take. Now if you’re a politician, do you want to be the one to have to say this in an election year?!

    No, but they’d rather kill the economy and put a lot of people out of work during an election year instead? If as you say our current plan is worse than letting it play out why isn’t this being argued more effectively in the media? There are enough people who want to criticize Trump. Why aren’t they making the case? Italy already had a weak economy so they can less afford the lockdown. Why aren’t they letting it play out?

    In February, the approach you are advocating is what I expected the US and the UK to do. It was what we did for previous viral outbreaks.

    You might be able, because of your situation, to avoid catching it. You might catch it and be asymptomatic and also not pass it on to anyone. I’m hoping that’s the case. Stay in touch.

    frosty (f27e97)

  391. 39. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/18/2020 @ 7:40 pm

    there was a Chinese study referenced in the NIH db, but they disqualified all the patients they were testing who…died. Yup. It cured all the non-dead ones maybe faster, except the dead ones, but never mind that.

    It clearly wasn’t a prospective study. It was a summary of what they actually did perhaps disguised a bit.

    The main point there were making is that patients who recovered, had recovered faster when they were given chloroquine – something like in an average of 4 days versus an average of 11 days..

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  392. It clearly wasn’t a prospective study. It was a summary of what they actually did perhaps disguised a bit.

    I forgive ’em.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  393. 403. Let’s be real here, Frosty. It wouldn’t make the first time politicians killed the economy in the name of doing what’s good for us.

    And I do hope I avoid getting sick as well. I’m glad you’re not wishing any ill on me. But rest assured, I am not wishing any ill on my fellow man either. When I say that the changes I make to my life have been minimal, it’s because I’m a nerd. Social distancing is a normal way of life for me. 😉

    Gryph (08c844)

  394. I’m somewhat encouraged this morning, as it looks like hospitals are stockpiling hydroxychloroquine. One might reasonably suspect that health care officials are seeking to get to a point where ventilators and hospital beds become less necessary, to begin with. And I’m all for that. Chloroquine is a much more effective treatment than artificial ventilation.

    Gryph (08c844)

  395. There are two strains of the virus – what;s called the S strain and what is called the L strain. The S strain is the original, and is less deadly. According to an article, the L strain was in Wuhan but it it is the S strain that has escaped (more?) throughout the world. That could be because it doesn’t give immediate serious symptoms. The detectable difference between the two strains, when a PCR test is given, are small.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  396. Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/20/2020 @ 7:14 am

    Albany is a long way from Hartsfield. Most of the traffic through ATL is not local and the local traffic would cause spikes in Peachtree City and the surrounding counties. Which is happening.

    The better point of the Albany example that Gryph is missing is the lessons learned from the Spanish Flu. The Spanish Flu wiped out entire remote Native American communities and devastated remote Pacific Island communities. The differences between Philidelphia and other cities, like San Francisco, was stark (hint Philidelphia didn’t take steps to reduce the spread and SF did).

    But Gryph is committed. Maybe it’s because it’s coming from people he doesn’t agree with for political reasons. I understand his personal financial reasons. I know some Trump people who are going this route.

    frosty (f27e97)

  397. I’m somewhat encouraged this morning, as it looks like hospitals are stockpiling hydroxychloroquine.

    Bayer stepped up and donated their stockpile. Many suppliers in the pharmaceuticals supply chain are already out of it. It’s also needed by many people for other uses.

    What we have is being pushed to hospitals, yes.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  398. 409. I’ve given up on politics, Frosty. They’re all a bunch of crooks regardless of party. I would really like to see the people in charge do the right thing. Using chloroquine as a first-line defense against the need for vents is a good start.

    Gryph (08c844)

  399. 410. If chloroquine has a 50% chance of working, that’s better than the 5% chance that a vent has of saving someone’s life.

    Gryph (08c844)

  400. Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 7:31 am

    So am I. I already work from home 100%. I’ve woken up some mornings and realized I hadn’t left my house for a week or more long before covid. But I’ve also got several close family members with health issues that increase their risk in this situation. It would be harder to convince them to take this seriously if your view was more common. I tried a couple of weeks ago and they all thought I was overreacting.

    frosty (f27e97)

  401. If chloroquine has a 50% chance of working, that’s better than the 5% chance that a vent has of saving someone’s life.

    That is my goddamn friggin’ argument and the point is we don’t have enough of it. Flattening the curve, short-term damage to the economy be damned, now is the only we to do this until we have enough to treat everyone at an earlier stage. There also looks to be another new experimental drug, favipiravir, from Japan at least as good as chloroquine. It will take a while for it to be approved and produced/distributed in sufficient quantity for all the countries in the world to use. We also need to figure out which protocols are best.

    All of this requires time.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  402. You can’t trust the media. But you can trust the media to be the media…

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/03/20/biased_press_does_chinas_bidding_on_covid-19.html

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/20/2020 @ 7:22 am

    Both President Trump and the Chinese Government would rather fight about this type of thing than discuss what’s actually going on, or what they’ve done/not done.

    The Chi-Coms because they’re an authoritarian regime.
    Trump because this dumb fight is better for him than what he’s done so far on the Virus.

    The media is fond of any story that will get people engaged. Culture war stuff does that better then long articles on how a virus spreads.

    Then the infuriating partisans jump on.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  403. Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 7:31 am

    So am I. I already work from home 100%. I’ve woken up some mornings and realized I hadn’t left my house for a week or more long before covid. But I’ve also got several close family members with health issues that increase their risk in this situation. It would be harder to convince them to take this seriously if your view was more common. I tried a couple of weeks ago and they all thought I was overreacting.

    frosty (f27e97) — 3/20/2020 @ 7:51 am

    I have a family member in an at risk group that was posting FB meme’s about this being a hoax and how the Ok Gov & Nunes were right to go to a restaurant and Trump had said it would all blow over.

    Trying to get them to take precautions beyond hand washing went nowhere. I hope they’re OK.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  404. 414. Time during which our entire economy will be shut down by government fiat. That scares me as much as the virus does, Make. The virus is a natural phenomenon. Economic suicide is a choice. And we will have to live with that choice long after the virus has burned itself out (naturally or otherwise).

    I know all about the FDA process for approving one-hit compassionate use. That bottleneck is one of the countless reasons I don’t trust our government to handle disasters like this.

    413. I’ve made changes. In my defense, I am taking this quite seriously. But I feel like I’m being told that if I’m not panicking, I’m not doing this thing correctly. Panicking will prolong the existence of this disease and panicking won’t save lives in the net, even if fewer ICU beds end up occupied at any given time. That’s not me talking about what I believe should happen, or why the government is such a bunch of ****-ups. That’s a whole other ball of wax.

    Gryph (08c844)

  405. I have a family member in an at risk group that was posting FB meme’s about this being a hoax and how the Ok Gov & Nunes were right to go to a restaurant and Trump had said it would all blow over.

    Morons.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  406. I’m seeing massive purchase orders for hydroxychloroquine in my healthcare organization. Looks like we’re going to prescribe this prophylacticly enmassed now.

    Interestingly, we’re going to treat hydroxychloroquine as if it’s a scheduled II drug (ie, narcotic). All that really does is enforces accountability as if it’s a pain pill. (MDs must have a DEA/state license to prescribe schedule medications and not all MDs does this).

    whembly (c30c83)

  407. Genuinely interested in your answer if you care to give it.

    Sorry I missed this before.

    Classically, fascism defines some group, often ethnic, as being the rightful leadership of society. But it doesn’t have to be ethnic, it could be ideological (e.g. Soviet Communism) or religious. In any event, to one of the leadership class it is “us”, as opposed to “them” who are being led.

    There are usually other aspects to fascism, notably militarism, a disrespect for the Rule of Law, a concentration of power and an intrusion of the State into private lives. But us leading them is key.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  408. I’m seeing massive purchase orders [emphasis added] for hydroxychloroquine in my healthcare organization.

    That’s the easy bit.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  409. MAOA, I can see our distributors having quite a bit of hydroxychloroquine in stock so at least for the initial order we’re not expecting shortages.

    whembly (c30c83)

  410. Good.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  411. 348, yup California is at least 3 if not 5 physical States, let alone the counties and metros.

    Yes. See them here: https://i.imgur.com/A8vUId9.png

    Split correctly, California could be 5 states with 5 separate and happy cultures.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  412. Chloroquine is easy to manufacture, cheap, and already plentiful worldwide in malaria hotbeds. If this thing is handled properly, a shortage shouldn’t be a problem.

    Gryph (08c844)

  413. I agree we shouldn’t panic, Gryph. I am a conservative who doesn’t like quick, unplanned changes so it feels like panic to change everything overnight. But IMO it’s not panic. Just as things changed overnight after 9/11, we need to dramatically change our lives in the short-term because of the threat. Dramatic change now decreases the immediate risks while also increasing the chance this won’t be a long-term change to our way of life.

    Americans won’t accept long-term significant restraints on their ability to move about, assemble, and enjoy life in society. The experience in other nations with this virus strongly suggests that doing nothing now increases the chance we will see millions of illnesses and thousands (or more) deaths. If so, doing nothing now may increase the chance of long-term institutional and societal changes because people will decide giving government more power forever is the answer.

    We will be less free in the short-term if we do this. But IMO we will be less free in the long-term if we do nothing to stop this pandemic and so many people die/get sick that we have a real panic.

    DRJ (15874d)

  414. What she said.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  415. 426. I’m glad you consider yourself conservative. Then consider that it’s much easier to give up freedom than it is to get it back.

    Flattening the curve will not reduce the number of people who get sick and/or die. I’ll say that as many times as I need to. It will make some people feel better, but if you agree that we shouldn’t panic, don’t try to guilt-trip me because I am not.

    Gryph (08c844)

  416. One thing that every state should be doing, and is not doing, is re-credentialing retired medical personnel and temporarily reciprocating out-of-state licenses so that they can get the benefit of trained but inactive personnel.

    This might add 10% to the available staff, even if they were required to be supervised by current licensees.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  417. Americans won’t accept long-term significant restraints on their ability to move about, assemble, and enjoy life in society.

    Tyranny comes slowly, then all at once.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  418. Tyranny comes slowly, then all at once.

    It all started with seatbelts.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  419. One thing that every state should be doing, and is not doing, is re-credentialing retired medical personnel and temporarily reciprocating out-of-state licenses so that they can get the benefit of trained but inactive personnel.

    And pay their malpractice insurance, too? In Illinois, it would be up to $40,000/year plus an $80,000 tail.

    nk (1d9030)

  420. Bush managed to unite us in a really bad moment

    George W Bush is a great example of a man rising to the occasion. He was hit out of the blue with an impossible situation, and he united us without making it ideological, partisan or personal. Sure, later, we drifted apart, the opposition took advantage of his several missteps and it all ended in tears. But for that one moment, he was the right man at the right time.

    Trump? I actually thing Trump is trying. He is a man of lesser parts though. I wish him well mainly because I wish America well and he’s the president we have. I take umbrage at petty attacks, which seem more personal than useful, but admit that he could have done better. He also could have done worse.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  421. @423

    Good.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/20/2020 @ 8:34 am

    LOL… after I responded to you I just got communication that yes there’s a shortage on hydroxychloroquine nation-wide, but distributors are confident that supplies will met the demand shortly (whatever that means). Luckily at my institution, we believe we have just enough stock to handle the initial influx, hence why there’s extra mitigation policies in place to manage current stock (preventing diversion).

    whembly (c30c83)

  422. after I responded to you I just got communication that yes there’s a shortage on hydroxychloroquine nation world-wide […].

    With all due respect, there: I corrected it for you.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  423. You are correct that Trump has not had a single week free of accusations. That’s what we should have thought about before nominating him.

    I’m pretty sure we were both clear on that in 2016. Neither of us supported him for the nomination and I think we both wanted the RNC to find a way to diddle him out of it. Then, later he won. I found myself glad it wasn’t Hillary The Inevitable, but I had little expectations of a President Trump. He’s done better than I thought, but it was a very low bar. And the Democrats seem intent on running someone worse.

    IMHO, the two major parties have lost the plot.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  424. High-risk individuals are perfectly capable of socially distancing themselves should they so choose, and I think that makes a lot more sense than shutting down the entire nation’s economy for an indeterminate period of time.

    This. And even those who are high-risk and unable to cope for related reasons can be provided for at far less social and economic cost.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  425. I am genetically resistant, if not immune, to malaria. Does that mean I shouldn’t worry about the Chinese virus either?

    nk (1d9030)

  426. Here’s the problem.

    Of course they will prioritize the sickest people getting chloroquine and other anti-virals such as Agivan. However, they don’t work well on the sickest people, they need to be used on the much larger group of people who have not yet become sick or who have mild symptoms yet have coronavirus:

    But a Japanese health ministry source suggested the drug was not as effective in people with more severe symptoms. “We’ve given Avigan to 70 to 80 people, but it doesn’t seem to work that well when the virus has already multiplied,” the source told the Mainichi Shimbun.

    The same limitations had been identified in studies involving coronavirus patients using a combination of the HIV antiretrovirals lopinavir and ritonavir, the source added.

    So any shortage will cause prioritizing going to people of most of whom won’t be helped and thus not save the most lives, nor save the most long-term disability.

    We need A LOT of it now and then we will need MORE or we will face the above problem, which we almost certainly are facing NOW.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  427. I am genetically resistant, if not immune, to malaria. Does that mean I shouldn’t worry about the Chinese virus either?

    No.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  428. @428

    Flattening the curve will not reduce the number of people who get sick and/or die. I’ll say that as many times as I need to. It will make some people feel better, but if you agree that we shouldn’t panic, don’t try to guilt-trip me because I am not.

    Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 8:45 am

    Gryph. That’s patently untrue.

    Just compare two hypothetical charts:
    1) the narrow peak, where the infection spread rapidly
    2) the flattened curve, where the infection is slowed

    Scenario 1 has the danger of overwhelming healthcare resources where the number of acute care may be impacted which can lead to higher deaths.

    Scenario 2 gives the healthcare providers and the market TIME to manage resources to ensure that every acute care are adequately met.

    We have a perfect example of this: The 1918 Spanish Flu and compare what Philadelphia vs St. Louis did during that outbreak.

    whembly (c30c83)

  429. I think Trump is trying, too, Kevin.

    I am conservative, Gryph, not libertarian. I see a role for government and IMO this is the time for government to act. I also think libertarians contribute ideas that should be considered.

    DRJ (15874d)

  430. I am conservative, Gryph, not libertarian.

    I knew there was something I liked about you.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  431. I will keep asking you this; if letting everyone get sick at the natural rate is the most cost effective plan

    No. No. No. That’s not what Gryph is saying at ALL. What he is saying is that “not everyone has significant risk, and those that do not should go ahead with their lives.”

    The people who are at risk are also largely able to decrease contacts with little economic damage. Most are retired and/or invalided and are not in the workforce. Their sources of income/wealth do not materially change. Those that still are working (e.g. HIV+) can be given medical leave, with pay, at far less economic cost than sending everyone home.

    Then you let the virus run through the healthy population and the few resulting complicated cases can be handled as they are with the flu. It is ONLY the at-risk group that will flood the hospitals if left to get infected, so by removing them from most danger, you are treating the problem at the right end.

    As it is we are trying to lever the world with the fulcrum in the wrong place.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  432. Where you been?

    Reaganomics.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/19/2020 @ 10:07 pm

    Yeah, the Long Boom (1982-1999) was a terrible time for the world.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  433. Luckily at my institution, we believe we have just enough stock to handle the initial influx

    To do what? To treat the sickest of the sick, the least likely to benefit? Or enough to also treat the minimally sick and asymptomatic, preventing the most deaths and long-term organ damage?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  434. My first job was stuffing burritos at a Taco Bell. But I found something better.

    Are you sure?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  435. To do what? To treat the sickest of the sick, the least likely to benefit? Or enough to also treat the minimally sick and asymptomatic, preventing the most deaths and long-term organ damage?

    ^and transmissibility (because clearing coronavirus from the body quicker reduces that, too).

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  436. High-risk individuals are perfectly capable of socially distancing themselves should they so choose, and I think that makes a lot more sense than shutting down the entire nation’s economy for an indeterminate period of time.

    We know who high-risk individuals are with routine illnesses — people with AIDS, cancer, autoimmune and other immune system problems, the elderly, and infants — and we expect them to protect themselves without inconveniencing other Americans. Those of us who fit in those categories do that everyday. In fact, the things Americans are doing now is how my family has lived for over 20 years, because that is what we have to do to protect our sick kid.

    The problem is that with this virus, excluding those people may not be enough. Forget the vulnerable for a moment. Assume they were all living on an island or even that they all died: That may not be enough. This virus doesn’t just hurt the vulnerable, it also targets the healthy and it spreads quickly. The best we can do with diseases that are new, serious, and move quick is to buy time to find answers.

    DRJ (15874d)

  437. @448

    To do what? To treat the sickest of the sick, the least likely to benefit? Or enough to also treat the minimally sick and asymptomatic, preventing the most deaths and long-term organ damage?

    ^and transmissibility (because clearing coronavirus from the body quicker reduces that, too).

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/20/2020 @ 9:24 am

    Not 100% sure, but I would imagine only those needing acute care (ie, in the ICU).

    whembly (c30c83)

  438. Would you vote for a dishonorable man?

    “So are they all, all honorable men.”

    Adam Smith found a way to make dishonorable men to honorable things. Our Founders, knowing that power attracted scoundrels (like themselves), created a system that thwarted powerful scoundrels.

    So, yes, I will vote for a dishonorable person who advocates better policies than the other dishonorable person. And sometimes even over an honorable, but thoroughly misguided one.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  439. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 9:18 am

    It impacts the old and people with pre-existing conditions at a higher rate but it also has serious consequences across a wide range of age groups. And the term pre-existing conditions covers a lot of people who are not old.

    Gryph is seriously underestimating the significant risk group and also seems to be ignoring the rates at which people are getting seriously ill.

    This is the heart of the avoid old and sick people argument. It assumes that only these people will die, that this is a small group that we can isolate, and that the people who die are the primary problem.

    frosty (f27e97)

  440. Not 100% sure, but I would imagine only those needing acute care (ie, in the ICU).

    Of course they should get it, but, as the Japanese found out, anti-viral therapy doesn’t do a lot of good for those who are most sick. We will need large, rapid quantities of this drug to save the most lives and prevent the most injury by treating people early. We don’t have them.

    We (humans) need to both make a ton of these, not just for America but for every other country on the planet, AND we need to flatten the curve, whatever Gryph thinks…, to give us time to be able to treat all.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  441. And pay their malpractice insurance, too? In Illinois, it would be up to $40,000/year plus an $80,000 tail.

    Sure, why not. We’re spending a damn sight more than that now. One might even limit malpractice awards in these cases. But most of them are not doctors. Nurses are, I think, more needed.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  442. We’ve known since February that this virus may move more quickly between people and is resistant to past treatment strategies:

    To help support rapid research advances, the genome sequence of the new coronavirus was released to the public by scientists in China. A collaborative team including scientists from Dr. Jason McLellan’s lab at the University of Texas at Austin and the NIAID Vaccine Research Center (VRC) isolated a piece of the genome predicted to encode for its spike protein based on sequences of related coronaviruses. The team then used cultured cells to produce large quantities of the protein for analysis.

    The study was funded in part by NIH’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID). Results were published on February 19, 2020, in Science.

    The researchers used a technique called cryo-electron microscopy to take detailed pictures of the structure of the spike protein. This involves freezing virus particles and firing a stream of high-energy electrons through the sample to create tens of thousands of images. These images are then combined to yield a detailed 3D view of the virus.

    The researchers found that the SARS-CoV-2 spike was 10 to 20 times more likely to bind ACE2 on human cells than the spike from the SARS virus from 2002. This may enable SARS-CoV-2 to spread more easily from person to person than the earlier virus.

    Despite similarities in sequence and structure between the spikes of the two viruses, three different antibodies against the 2002 SARS virus could not successfully bind to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. This suggests that potential vaccine and antibody-based treatment strategies will need to be unique to the new virus.

    “We hope these findings will aid in the design of candidate vaccines and the development of treatments for COVID-19,” says Dr. Barney Graham, VRC Deputy Director.

    The researchers are currently working on vaccine candidates targeting the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. They also hope to use the spike protein to isolate antibodies from people who have recovered from infection by the new coronavirus. If produced in large quantities, such antibodies could potentially be used to treat new infections before a vaccine is available. In addition, NIH researchers are pursuing other approaches to treating the virus.

    The other approach is a clinical trial in Nebraska of Remdesivir.

    Buying time has always been the strategy because isolating the vulnerable is not enough. It isn’t only the vulnerable who are at risk.

    DRJ (15874d)

  443. Scenario 1 has the danger of overwhelming healthcare resources where the number of acute care may be impacted which can lead to higher deaths.

    Yes, but there is another approach — isolate the 10% of the population that are the ones who will need hospitalization. This also flattens the curve, without destroying the economy or badly affecting the other 90%.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  444. And the term pre-existing conditions covers a lot of people who are not old.

    Did I say otherwise?

    But that Italian paper on “conditions” was statistical hogwash. The conditions did not usually matter, other than being duplicate markers for age. Ignore it, it’s crap. That an 80yo has hypertension or heart problems is a tautology.

    And, as I said, many non-age-related condition are debilitating (e.g. cancer patients, gross obesity) and the remainder (e.g. HIV+, transplant recipients) can be isolated at far less cost than shutting down the entire economy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  445. We don’t know it is only 10% and we don’t know who that 10% is.

    DRJ (15874d)

  446. Kevin, it damages the heart, lungs, kidneys, bladder, testes, ovaries, etc. I don’t think your plan is good for that reason. It will cause a lot of sequelae in young and middle aged people, even somewhat in healthy people.

    Death isn’t the only metric. I’m not sure it’s even the most important metric.

    As a country, we’ll survive 85 years olds dying, however sad that is, a lot better than we’ll survive 25 and 30 year olds being injured in these ways.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  447. The problem is that with this virus, excluding those people may not be enough.

    What is meant by “enough”? Enough so that none of them get sick? Or enough so that the curve is flat enough? All that really matters is the latter since no matter what, the former is impossible.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  448. @456

    Scenario 1 has the danger of overwhelming healthcare resources where the number of acute care may be impacted which can lead to higher deaths.

    Yes, but there is another approach — isolate the 10% of the population that are the ones who will need hospitalization. This also flattens the curve, without destroying the economy or badly affecting the other 90%.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 9:38 am

    The problem with this sentiment is that you’d need testing kits available near real-time.

    Obviously that didn’t happen here, nor it may never be pragmatic either.

    whembly (c30c83)

  449. @458… what DRJ said.

    whembly (c30c83)

  450. What is meant by “enough”? Enough so that none of them get sick? Or enough so that the curve is flat enough? All that really matters is the latter since no matter what, the former is impossible.

    Enough so that a large population of people aren’t infected and killed if not injured before we have a sufficient supply of anti-viral drugs in place (not just for the U.S., for the world: everyone will be trying to get these drugs) to treat everyone infected, since the most sick benefit the least when treated and the least sick the most.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  451. This family was active with no obvious health vulnerabilities or reason to isolate, but now four are dead and three more are hospitalized. We don’t know who is susceptible to this virus.

    DRJ (15874d)

  452. I don’t think your plan is good for that reason. It will cause a lot of sequelae in young and middle aged people, even somewhat in healthy people.

    But your plan isn’t going to change that. It is only going to flatten the curve. THEY WILL STILL GET IT, just not all at the same time. The CA governor said yesterday that 25 million of the state’s 40 million were going to contract this at some point.

    If the object of the current exercise was to drastically reduce the number of people who eventually get this, then maybe it would be a good idea. But it ISN’T. It is simply to make it so that hospital admissions are spread out. And the cost is astronomical the way it is being done. California wants $1 trillion ALL BY ITSELF.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  453. But your plan isn’t going to change that. It is only going to flatten the curve. THEY WILL STILL GET IT, just not all at the same time.

    They’ll get it when we have enough anti-viral drugs to treat them, which we don’t now.

    Did you just overlook everything I said about that?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  454. The fit/healthy are at risk, too:

    Nearly 500 Homeland Security employees are quarantined because of the novel coronavirus, and at least 13 are confirmed or presumed COVID-19 positive, according to documentation reviewed by POLITICO.

    DRJ (15874d)

  455. The problem is that with this virus, excluding those people may not be enough.

    What is meant by “enough”? Enough so that none of them get sick? Or enough so that the curve is flat enough? All that really matters is the latter since no matter what, the former is impossible.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 9:45 am

    I guess it means different things to different people. To me, it means doing all we can to avoid overwhelming our hospitals and healthcare system.

    DRJ (15874d)

  456. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 9:38 am

    Exactly which 10% will need hospitalization and is that 10% number based on any reliable data? The current average global death rate is 4%. That is not the number that will need hospitalization.

    The UK officials were making this point, that other people besides the old and sick, will need hospitalization yesterday.

    And I’ll ask in a different version; why didn’t China do this. They aren’t in an election cycle. They are certainly positioned to do exactly what you suggest and to protect their economy. Why didn’t they? They are certainly capable of making the same cost-benefit analysis.

    And I’m not trying to minimize your argument. I fully expect this to be a bigger issue as the consequences of this thing become more obvious. I thought it would be our plan A. What I’m asking is that you flush it out and explain it. Gryph is simply factually wrong. But this needs to be explored and it’s better to explore it sooner rather than later.

    frosty (f27e97)

  457. But your plan isn’t going to change that. It is only going to flatten the curve. THEY WILL STILL GET IT, just not all at the same time.

    Did you ever see the Disney movie “TOJO” (it’s great) or read about it the 1925 diptheria serum run to Nome, Alaska, which the Itidarod, in part, celebrates to this day?

    Diptheria was killing the children. There was an anti-toxin available, but the supply they in Nome had was old and ineffective. There was a massive winter storm and, in 1925, flying it there wasn’t going to work. So they organized sled dog relays to get it to them through this brutal storm.

    The point I’m making is they had to get the anti-toxin to the kids in time to save their lives. They didn’t make it for every kid.

    Let’s make it for our people, and slow down the spread as long as possible. We don’t have enough anti-viral drugs now (it’s a worldwide pandemic) to treat the ones who can most benefit (those who aren’t at death’s door and for whom the virus has not spread too much in their bodies).

    Do you not see the point of time in this?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  458. *TOGO

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  459. When a reporter asked why Trump was spinning a drug trial as though the drug will be available almost immediately, even though the clinical trial has barely even begun, the President said he just had a good feeling about it.

    “It may work or may not work. I feel good about it. That’s all it is, just a feeling,” he said. “I’m a smart guy.”

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  460. Blessed are those who promote calm, unity, courage, rationality and patience.

    May those who foment panic, division, and dishonesty be inspired to be better human beings.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  461. This family was active with no obvious health vulnerabilities

    So what? Sad for them, but there are always outliers and exceptions. People ARE going to die. We lost 30-40K this flu season from the flu, mostly people who would be at risk here. But the way this is being handled (and largely at the state level) is not materially better than a more focused approach. But it IS economically materially worse.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  462. The current average global death rate is 4%. That is not the number that will need hospitalization.

    Based on selection bias of who is tested. Only the obviously sick are being tested, so the denominator of that fatality rate is nonsense.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  463. Do you not see the point of time in this?

    We will kill more people through economic disruption than we will save over a plan that focused on the likely vulnerable.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  464. It is true there will be outliers but there are a lot of anecdotal outliers that we can’t explain. Add in that this spreads quickly, has no clear treatment options, and the victims are not just the vulnerable and “business as usual” may not be the best choice.

    DRJ (15874d)

  465. So what? Sad for them, but there are always outliers and exceptions. People ARE going to die. We lost 30-40K this flu season from the flu, mostly people who would be at risk here. But the way this is being handled (and largely at the state level) is not materially better than a more focused approach. But it IS economically materially worse.

    And if you treated it like the flu, twice as many would get it, since it’s twice as communicable, and somewhere between 10X and 40X the mortality rate, so 600k to 3.2Million dead. Is 600k dead OK with you, by the way, the people dying of everything else…still dead, maybe fewer car crashes since less driving, but more suicide because of isolation and desolation. Only 2.8 Million Americans die every year, so adding 21% to 215% more deaths.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  466. Do you not see the point of time in this?

    We will kill more people through economic disruption than we will save over a plan that focused on the likely vulnerable.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:21 am

    It should have been possible to come up with a less economically disruptive mitigation strategy. But we didn’t do that.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  467. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/20/2020 @ 9:51 am

    But your plan isn’t going to change that. It is only going to flatten the curve. THEY WILL STILL GET IT, just not all at the same time. The CA governor said yesterday that 25 million of the state’s 40 million were going to contract this at some point.

    If the object of the current exercise was to drastically reduce the number of people who eventually get this, then maybe it would be a good idea. But it ISN’T. It is simply to make it so that hospital admissions are spread out. And the cost is astronomical the way it is being done. California wants $1 trillion ALL BY ITSELF.

    This is not correct. One of the reasons of this exercise is to reduce the number of people who eventually get it. It’s possible this isn’t being explained well in the news. The primary reason for social distancing is to slow this down and that is a very important reason but that’s not the only reason and there are multiple benefits from slowing it down. If we can get reliable large scale tests in place we can more reliably isolate people but we need time for that. It’s possible we can develop possible treatments to mitigate the situation and we need time for that as well.

    But it’s also possible to slow it down enough for the virus to die out. For example, if everyone were actually able to stay at home for 14 days and 14 days was the contagion period at the end of those 14 days there would be no one to spread the virus. If China would have acted sooner they could have contained the virus and no amount of R0 would have made it magically pop up in another part of the world. I don’t think that’s possible for the US to isolate for that long and obviously these are rough numbers but it’s not all or nothing. Doing some of that will slow the spread. Then if in two weeks, for example, we step back a little from the current measures the population the virus has access too isn’t the same. It doesn’t spread exactly as it did before. If, for example, 10% of the population had the virus during those 14 days and recovered they aren’t spreading the virus. They act like graphite rods in a reactor. If you slowed it for 14 days and then went back to not slowing it at all you would get a different growth curve and you would change the number of people infected.

    The two statements you made above aren’t even directly related. 25M of 40M doesn’t mean the same number would have gotten it eventually no matter what. It’s entirely possible for 25M to get it with the current plans and 30M to get it otherwise. I don’t know what number Newsom is using though and I’m certainly not trying to defend him.

    This is one of my frustrations with the way these graphs are shown and explained on the news. The area under the curves, i.e. the people impacted, isn’t the same. That Newsom or Trump can’t explain this shouldn’t keep you from figuring that out for yourself.

    frosty (f27e97)

  468. From a New York Times editorial:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/china-journalists-coronavirus.html

    The global spread of the coronavirus demands independent and trusted information from the country where the scourge began.

    They won’t listen to the New York Times.

    Preventing independent and trusted information from getting out of China is the idea.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/03/20/coronavirus-latest-news

    For a second consecutive day, China reported no new local infections.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  469. My hope is the economic disruption of restrictions for 2-3 months will be much less than letting this completely overwhelm our hospitals, doctors, nurses, and healthcare system for years.

    DRJ (15874d)

  470. Time123 (b0628d) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:27 am

    Maybe, and that’s a good discussion to have. I’m not sure though. I think we’ve got some structural issues that made something like this inevitable and absent seeing it happen in real life we’ve got little incentive to change. Even after living through it I’m not sure how many people will want to readjust.

    It would be interesting to see some good gamed out scenarios because this will happen again.

    frosty (f27e97)

  471. Agree. It doesn’t always have to be a pandemic. Any international or even regional disruption couod do this.

    DRJ (15874d)

  472. an average of 4 days versus an average of 11 days..

    This might be with a different drug than hydroxychloroquine: The Japanese anti-flu drug Favipiravir (Avigan) developed by Fujifilm. It cut down the median period of time to test negative to 4 days, compared to 11 days for thos whi were not given Favipiravir. It’s not believed to do too much good in very severe cases. This was done in Shenzhen province. Maybe this is another study besides the one Colonel Klink @39.

    I am opposed to turning this into a clinical trial because in a clinical trial you have to give everyone the same dosage even if it occurs to doctors that more might be better. A traditional clinical trial is too rigid,
    .

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  473. The Wall Street Journal (via Hot Air) is having a similar discussion about economic disruption. Gaming these things out is something government is supposed to do. If anyone seems to be in panic mode in this event, it is government.

    DRJ (15874d)

  474. If millions of people get sick and no medical facilities are functioning, the economic consequences would be even worse. It’s nice to imagine this is all under control, but our society is actually very limited in what it can do. The idea that we’re exchanging economic security for health safety is incorrect. The economic security was gone in January. That’s why all those corrupt congressmen sold their stocks.

    We’ve lost our way and I don’t think we deserve this, but we’ve chosen leaders who lied to us that there’s nothing to worry about or prepare for, as they pad their bank accounts. When we ask why the well connected get special treatment Trump just says ‘that’s how it is’ after admitting he knew all along this was a pandemic, his previous comments that it was a hoax just… how he chose to manage the problem.

    We’ve chosen leaders who fill their ridiculous hotels with foreign lobbyists, our tax dollars, and their own name in gold. Leaders who use campaign funds to pay for their prostitutes and beg dictators to leak classified emails on national TV. Character matters in decision making. Trump’s calculus can’t account for public health or safety if he’s spent his whole life insulated from concern for others.

    I really think they should have impeachment proceedings and expulsion proceedings for the congressmen and the president related to what we already know they did and did not do. It’s time to re-establish a baseline for what American leaders are expected to care about.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  475. I am opposed to turning this into a clinical trial because in a clinical trial you have to give everyone the same dosage even if it occurs to doctors that more might be better. A traditional clinical trial is too rigid

    The Hydroxy–chloroquine have a high dose toxicity, so if your critically ill, they may kill you. If I’m already dying, I’m good with experiments, but at the end of the day, you are going to have to figure out what works, at what dosage, or you’re just going to be throwing medical spaghetti on the wall. Most people recover…regardless of treatment, some that go to the hospital survive with treatment, some die. To date, they are doing slightly more than randomly throwing potential solutions at it. I pray that one may work, but I’m planning on being isolated as much as possible, as should everyone else.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  476. The problem is, *every* individual running for elected office swears that they will be the one to clean out the corruption, influence of lobbyists, dirty money, etc. from politics. IOW, they are say they are going to drain the swamp. How’s that working out? Now, I would say that some are worse than others, and some make efforts to remain apart from the fray, the fact remains that too frequently, in order to get things done, comrpomises must be made. Which leads to corruption eventually. It’s baked into the system. I don’t know how that can seriously be addressed. A pandemic is yet another event that reflects the depth of the corruption.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  477. 482. That is assuming the economic disruption will only hold for that long. What if the disruption turns into 1-2 years because our efforts to tamp down the virus actually drew out the crisis? You don’t have to be a libertarian to understand basic epidemiological rudiments like R0.

    Gryph (08c844)

  478. If Hydroxy–chloroquine has a high dose toxicity, all the more reason not to give everyone a standard dose. They shoukd watch kidney function or other signs if danger.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  479. Yeah, but they’re only experimenting, currently, on the already pretty ill. The stay at home only feel mild symptoms folk aren’t being tested/experimented on because there just isn’t time.

    My SIL, is in the hospital now because she passed out last night. Healthy 52 year old, no prior symptoms but headache, and they took her to the hospital where the infected are going, but aren’t going to run the test yet, because there isn’t capacity, and its also probably something else, but based on the current rules, she won’t get tested until she gets worse. But since she’s in the ward with people treating the infected, there’s a high likelihood she will get it.

    And she’s the Chief Comms Officer at one of the labs that does testing, but not a pro athlete, although my nephew is an ex-X-games pro.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  480. If Hydroxy–chloroquine has a high dose toxicity, all the more reason not to give everyone a standard dose. They shoukd watch kidney function or other signs if danger.

    It’s another reason we need time: to develop effective protocols.

    For example, can you give people a lower dose if you give it to them early? Probably, but knowing would be better.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  481. It is true there will be outliers but there are a lot of anecdotal outliers that we can’t explain.

    96% of Italy’s dead are 60 or older, 86% are 70 or older. A brute-force approach that captures 96% (or even 86%) of dangerous cases seems like a pretty good one.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/20/europe/italy-military-coronavirus-intl/index.html

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  482. One of the reasons of this exercise is to reduce the number of people who eventually get it.

    The costs so far outweigh the benefits that it really doesn’t matter what incremental improvements this brings. A financial collapse — which will happen if this goes on past May) will kill tens of millions.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  483. Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/20/2020 @ 10:58 am

    We’ve lost our way and I don’t think we deserve this, but we’ve chosen leaders who lied to us that there’s nothing to worry about or prepare for, as they pad their bank accounts. When we ask why the well connected get special treatment Trump just says ‘that’s how it is’ after admitting he knew all along this was a pandemic, his previous comments that it was a hoax just… how he chose to manage the problem.

    There are two parts to this. The padding of the bank accounts/well-connected part and the lying about the seriousness part.

    For the lying about the seriousness part; if I thought there was any situation in which this didn’t happen I’d advocate for it. And this isn’t cynicism. Every world leader did the exact same thing and I’m not sure there are other options. The news of the quarantine leaked in Italy and people fled the area. The only way to put a quarantine in place is to say there will not be one right up until the minute you put one in place. That is lying to manage the problem and it’s the only way for that to be effective. The only way to avoid panic is to say there is nothing to panic about.

    Leading up to this the exercise I had with my son was to tell him when they say X it actually means Y. That is how these things always work. I have no idea why people needed the president to tell them this was serious. When you saw China lock down a major city with 11M people it should have been obvious. When you saw them lock down multiple cities and towns in China were setting up roadblocks and tearing up the roads into town it should have been obvious. Should Trump have acted sooner? Absolutely.

    On the padding of the bank accounts. I’m all for investigating these situations and I’m in favor of some very serious consequences.

    I’d also like to investigate all of the political critters with sweat China deals. All of the academics with grants from China now pushing Chinese propaganda, etc. I’m in favor of some very serious consequences there too.

    frosty (f27e97)

  484. Preventing independent and trusted information from getting out of China is the idea.

    If only China had been more concerned about firewalling the virus than the information about the virus.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  485. 496. Be real, fellas. You can spew accusations of “libertarian!” all you want at me, but I think we all know in the innermost cockles of our hearts that this is just business as usual for our elite overlords. It took us over a century to get to this point; it’s going to take more than one or two years to undo it — if we even can.

    Gryph (08c844)

  486. BTW, is there possibly a MORE Statist way we could approach this problem? I guess we could have martial law like Italy is moving to.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  487. 499. If being “conservative” means that you are willing to engage in economic suicide at the behest of the government out of sheer blind panic, then I guess this really is the new normal.

    Gryph (08c844)

  488. You can spew accusations of “libertarian!” all you want at me,

    I would be loathe to accuse a man of something so vile.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  489. 501. I believe what I believe. How other people wish to define my beliefs is up to them, as long as they don’t slander me with accusations of beliefs I don’t actually hold.

    Gryph (08c844)

  490. It was partly tongue in cheek, Gryph.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  491. Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 11:27 am

    These elite overlords, are we talking about the reptilians, the Bilderbergs, or the reptilian Bilderbergs?

    frosty (f27e97)

  492. 503. Yeah yeah yeah. I get it. I’m just not that easily amused right now.

    Gryph (08c844)

  493. 504. The 545, frosty. The government. I don’t need to traffic in conspiracy theories when the truth is right in front of our noses.

    Gryph (08c844)

  494. Q. has anyone who is HIV-positive (and taking anti-HIV antiviral protease inhibitors) come down with ir died of disease?

    Because, if not, we have a cure or a preventative for this disease.

    Another question: Do they get the flu?

    Sammy Finkelman (3efdba)

  495. Gryph 490,

    Because I don’t think we Americans will accept these lockdowns/lifestyle changes for more than a month, maybe two, so I don’t view this as catastrophic as you do. The combination of everything happening at once will undoubtedly cause a depression but the lockdowns are just part of the reason why that will happen. The disruption in China, the oil industry problems, the impact on healthcare, and the crisis for the leisure industries (airline, travel, cruise, hotels, restaurants, bars, and all who support that) were already happening and taking a huge toll. Better to hope we can buy time for a month or two while healthcare catches up.

    For the future, I don’t expect the public to change. However, I hope the healthcare industry decides to game out how to deal with things like this since, clearly, government can’t or won’t.

    DRJ (15874d)

  496. Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 11:27 am

    It took us over a century to get to this point;

    No, this resembles some of what happened in 1918. Maybe not so extreme, and primarily done at the sate or local level. They did a lot of “public health” dictates then.

    Sammy Finkelman (3efdba)

  497. 509. I was talking about general government overreach, not specifically epidemic/crisis response.

    Gryph (08c844)

  498. The problem is, *every* individual running for elected office swears that they will be the one to clean out the corruption, influence of lobbyists, dirty money, etc. from politics. IOW, they are say they are going to drain the swamp. How’s that working out? Now, I would say that some are worse than others, and some make efforts to remain apart from the fray, the fact remains that too frequently, in order to get things done, comrpomises must be made. Which leads to corruption eventually. It’s baked into the system. I don’t know how that can seriously be addressed. A pandemic is yet another event that reflects the depth of the corruption.

    Dana (4fb37f) — 3/20/2020 @ 11:02 am

    We will hear calls that the crisis is so bad that we must tolerate corruption. That reform is a distraction. Partisanship is the perfect way to deflect because both sides will insist any reform of their side is evil and a lie until it’s so blatant and awful they have to revert to ‘but whatabout their blatant and awful conduct’.

    But like any huge mess or problem, you clean it by doing what you can, bit by bit. We know a few of these congressmen need out. We know the president needs out. We know they need prosecution. We know most efforts to get them out will fail. Keep doing it, and perhaps the voters catch on. Everything is here today for a major shift in politics for the better.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  499. Government taking over our lives requires government leaders willing to do it and the public letting them. Blue states typically have leaders and a public more open to that; that was not as true for red states until Trump. But there is a limit for everyone as to how far the government can go. I hope the federal, state, local and private healthcare folks realize they have only a limited time to get a handle on this.

    DRJ (15874d)

  500. 508. The government can and will attempt to enforce lockdowns at gunpoint. It’s already happened in Kentucky.

    Gryph (08c844)

  501. 512. Government leaders are absolutely willing to do it. And we the people haven’t shown a lot of inclination towards resistance, IMO…

    Gryph (08c844)

  502. 493 Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/20/2020 @ 11:17 am

    . For example, can you give people a lower dose if you give it to them early? Probably, but knowing would be better.

    But if you make everything into a standard clinical trial, you won’t find that out.

    Now id the time for wild experimentation, and analyze it with Graeco Latin squares, Only when you think you’ve got it 80% worked out at least, should you start with clinical trials, and only to settle all doubts/prove your protocol is correct. But even so it could probably be improved as you go.

    Sammy Finkelman (3efdba)

  503. It took us over a century to get to this point;

    Exactly, because the more dramatic the changes, the harder they are to accept. Incremental change is much more likely to be unchangeable.

    DRJ (15874d)

  504. 496. frosty (f27e97) — 3/20/2020 @ 11:24 am

    All of the academics with grants from China now pushing Chinese propaganda, etc. I’m in favor of some very serious consequences there too.

    The World Health Organization was pushing Chinese propaganda )that it was not spread through the air) as late as January 14.

    Sammy Finkelman (3efdba)

  505. The government can and will attempt to enforce lockdowns at gunpoint. It’s already happened in Kentucky.

    Well, the guy was confirmed infected, and said he would not quarantine, he was intentionally going out and putting others at risk. They didn’t put him in jail, or in the ground.

    When people are putting others at risk, intentionally, after being warned, multiple times, signed himself out of the hospital using a fake address specifically so he wouldn’t have to quarantine. I think have a cruiser sitting in front of your house to shame you is pretty minimal. There was no SWAT team threatening him.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  506. 518. I get that. It’s the “that’s pretty minimal” mindset that bothers me. It won’t be minimal when it’s your ox getting gored, Klink. And besides that, I’m not infected. I’m not even sick. WTF are you “conservative” types doing trying to guilt-trip me into self-exile for anyway>?

    Gryph (08c844)

  507. Snopes:

    U.S. President Donald Trump claimed that he felt COVID-19 was a pandemic “long before it was called a pandemic,” but his previous recorded statements paint a different picture.

    No it doesn’t, because they don’t say when it was called a pandemic.

    he world Health Organization called it a pandemic on March 11:

    https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/11/who-declares-the-coronavirus-outbreak-a-pandemic

    On March 4, Trump said: “I never said people that are feeling sick should go to work.”

    So he was treating it like something he could keep out of the Unites States.

    Sammy Finkelman (3efdba)

  508. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51980671

    New York said pharmacies, grocery stores, banks and shipping firms were among those exempt from the order, which goes into effect on Sunday.

    Sammy Finkelman (3efdba)

  509. Gryph (08c844) — 3/20/2020 @ 12:37 pm

    Just to clarify. I don’t label myself conservative and I wasn’t trying to guilt you into isolating. I was trying to logic you into isolating and I was trying to explain how your reasoning is wrong. The only action I suggested you take was to make it more clear to people in person that you are not trying to reduce the spread so that they could make a more informed opinion about how they wanted to interact with you.

    On your other point, not feeling sick doesn’t mean you aren’t a carrier. Have you been tested? If not it would be more accurate to say you don’t have any symptoms.

    frosty (f27e97)

  510. “If we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work — some of them go to work, but they get better.”

    Trump, March 4.

    Davethulhu (861cf8)

  511. @445.Yeah, the Long Boom (1982-1999) was a terrible time for the world.

    Yep: deregulate then; bailout now, repeatedly— w/tax dollars.

    Reaganomics.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  512. Sounds like “don’t worry about the virus” isn’t working out well for Iran

    frosty (f27e97)


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