Patterico's Pontifications

3/31/2020

Pastor Arrested, DeBlasio Threatens Permanent Closure of Houses of Worship Defying NYC Order

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:56 am



[guest post by Dana]

Here are two troubling stories that raise questions about Constitutional freedoms during a pandemic. The first story raises the question of whether our right to freely assemble can be temporarily suspended during a pandemic, and the second story reveals a disturbingly authoritarian urge by an elected official trying to control the spread of coronavirus in hard-hit NYC.

First, a pastor in Florida was arrested for holding church services with up to 500 people in attendance, in spite of new coronavirus restrictions put in place. He showed no remorse for his decision, rather he blamed the media:

Pastor Rodney Howard-Browne was booked on misdemeanor charges of unlawful assembly and violation of public health rules after flouting social distancing orders at The River at Tampa Bay church.

Howard-Browne…has been an outspoken opponent of social distancing requirements, claiming his church has machines that can stop the coronavirus and vowing to personally cure the state of Florida himself.

“His reckless disregard for human life put hundreds of people in his congregation at risk, and thousands of residents who may interact with them this week, in danger,” Hillsborough County Sheriff Chad Chronister said at the press conference.

Howard-Browne did not respond to an immediate request for comment. He turned himself in to a neighboring sheriff’s office, was booked and released within 40 minutes, according to jail records.

On a Facebook broadcast on Monday night, Howard-Browne said, “I pray for the sheriff. He’s a good man,” and blamed the media for pressuring law enforcement to take action against him.

Efforts had been made to warn the pastor about holding services:

Friday, Sheriff Chronister said, deputies had tried to speak to Howard-Browne on at least two separate occasions about the “dangerous environment” the church was creating. He said HCSO command staff went to the east Tampa church, but they were advised by church leaders and legal staff that Howard-Browne was refusing to see them and also refusing to cancel the Sunday church services.

Additionally:

Chronister stressed that the warrant was not an attack on religious freedom and noted there are other Tampa Bay-area churches who are following the social distancing guidelines set by the CDC. He said his concern now is whether the novel coronavirus may spread following the crowded services.

“I was appalled and also frightened at the fact that those individuals [were] thinking and believing they are doing the right thing. How many people are they going to infect if they have COVID-19?” Chronister asked. “There is nothing more important than faith especially during a pandemic, but like every other church here in the Bay Area, do it responsibly.”

(There is reason to be concerned: Just days after a funeral took place in Georgia, with 200 mourners in attendance, a devastating outbreak of coronavirus swept through the small town.)

A couple of notes: Because Florida’s Gov. DeSantis has rejected issuing a statewide stay-at-home order, instead issuing an order only for residents in Southeast Florida, individual counties are instituting their own coronavirus restriction orders.

Also, Pastor Howard-Brown claimed that social distancing rules were observed during the service, and that they had “13 machines that basically kill[ed] every virus in the place.”

In the second story, Mayor Bill DeBlasio threatened to permanently shut down various houses of worship if they continue to violate New York City’s coronavirus restrictions on holding religious services:

“We’ve had extraordinary, across the board rabbinical support from all the different elements of the Jewish community and the same is true of other faiths as well,” de Blasio said in his Friday news briefing, according to The Jewish Press.

Some synagogues, however, are still holding minyanim, gatherings of 10 worshipers or more, to hold prayer services.

“A small number of religious communities, specific churches and specific synagogues, are unfortunately not paying attention to this guidance even though it’s so widespread,” de Blasio said.

“I want to say to all those who are preparing for the potential of religious services this weekend: If you go to your synagogue, if you go to your church, and attempt to hold services after having been told so often not to, our enforcement agents will have no choice but to shut down those services,” he warned, however admitting that he does not “say this with joy.”

“I understand how important people’s faiths are to them, and we need our faith in this time of crisis. But we do not need gatherings that will endanger people.”

The mayor called on religious citizens, asking that anyone who witnesses services taking place to report to the congregation’s officials and request them to stop services. Should that not be enough, the authorities may “need to take additional action up to the point of fines and potentially closing the building permanently.”

It is preposterous that DeBlasio believes he can permanently close down the houses of worship that violate the city’s restrictions on holding church services. Just under what and whose authority does the Mayor think that this can be done?

[Ed. I believe the headline at the Jerusalem Post, which I linked to, is misleading. The story makes clear that DeBlasio wasn’t singling out synagogues, but he clearly and specifically said “A small number of religious communities, specific churches and specific synagogues...]

–Dana

152 Responses to “Pastor Arrested, DeBlasio Threatens Permanent Closure of Houses of Worship Defying NYC Order”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  2. Golly. If only the dinosaurs had the Constitution to wave at that killer asteroid to stop it cold from slamming into the Earth.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  3. At last! I’ve been feeling like August Landmesser, but finally people are starting to catch on: our mayors and governors have been using COVID-19 to take authoritarian actions, and it seemed like 99% of the sheeple have been cheering them on.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  4. The better-looking Dana asked:

    Just under what and whose authority does the Mayor think that this can be done?

    Perhaps the Enabling Act, one of the responses to the Reichstag fire?

    Oh, has that already expired?

    Seriously, New York City’s zoning, fire, and building codes are very detailed and oppressive, and there’s probably some obscure regulation in them in which His Dishonor can disallow any meetings in those buildings.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  5. @3. Golly. If only the citizens of Pompeii had the Constitution to wave at Vesuvius to stop it from erupting and killing them.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  6. These encroachments are only going to get more brazen as the pandemic wears on – and the tensions around them will intensify the longer it persists.

    We’re going to learn a lot about what we believe as a people (or a group of peoples) over the next six to eight months.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  7. For the lawyers here on the Florida story: Public safety already places limits on places of worship. If a church didn’t comply with Fire Codes (Max occupancy, Fire Alarms, Clearly Marked Emergency Exists) I would expect it to eventually be fined and closed. Is this different in principle?

    In other words, if this is a first amendment issue if the state is treating all places of worship or other public buildings the same way?

    Time123 (80b471)

  8. The mayor called on religious citizens, asking that anyone who witnesses services taking place to report to the congregation’s officials and request them to stop services. Should that not be enough, the authorities may “need to take additional action up to the point of fines and potentially closing the building permanently.”

    And now the “reportings” begin. Didn’t see that coming. The cancel culture is loving this.

    felipe (023cc9)

  9. Hmm…Patterico? Thoughts?

    Gryph (08c844)

  10. Great post, Dana. Thank you!

    felipe (023cc9)

  11. If you could somehow stop The Wrong Rev. Jim Jones on the penultimate day, would you? I would, just like I’d stop the Right Loopy Rev. Howard-Browne from testing his virus killers on live congregants.

    Cuuuuumo is out of his mind.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  12. Leviticus (28a6ca) — 3/31/2020 @ 11:24 am

    Absolutely right! There will be much self-identification.

    felipe (023cc9)

  13. In other words, if this is a first amendment issue if the state is treating all places of worship or other public buildings the same way?

    As I’ve often said, rights are not license. None of the rights we enjoy is without limit.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  14. Pope Francis delivers his weekly blessing to an empty St. Peter’s Square on Sunday, March 15, 2020. -source, cnn.com

    Rodney Howard-Browne is a goddamned idiot.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  15. It is preposterous that DeBlasio believes he can permanently close down the houses of worship that violate the city’s restrictions on holding church services. Just under what and whose authority does the Mayor think that this can be done?

    Common sense.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  16. There’s nothing “common sensical” about even believing Cuuuuuumo can do that. He’d rightly be mashed in a New York minute (see what I did there?) by the first court a filing hit for injunctive relief.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  17. Ragspierre,

    It was DeBlasio who made the suggestion, not Cuomo.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  18. Rodney Howard-Browne is a goddamned idiot.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/31/2020 @ 12:01 pm

    The Pope was demonstrating that We were endowed by our Creator with both Faith and Reason. The Pastor’s mistake (an all too common mistake*) was to think that one was at odds with the other.

    * Remember the bumper sticker: “Don’t pray in my school and I won’t think in your church.”

    felipe (023cc9)

  19. Marc Randazza answers the question if, during a pandemic, a temporary constitutional order could be drafted that would violate the Bill of Rights at any other time:

    Yes, I do think it could be done.

    Blanket bans on assembly trouble me. Why not “you need a permit?” And part of having that permit is to have a public health officer there?

    Would that suck? yes. would it be unconstitutional other times? yes. Would it work? dunno?

    If churches had permits to assemble during a pandemic, it would make no difference in terms of the risk of contagion. However, if there were a temporary contitutional order in place – applicable only during the pandemic – then the Constitutional rights of Americans would be maintained. I don’t think the presence of a health officer would have made any difference in the midst of the 500 people that were in the Florida church services…

    Dana (4fb37f)

  20. @16. Ignorance is bliss. Stay happy, Raggy.

    Golly. If only the citizens of San Francisco had shaken a copy of the Constitution at the ground in 1906 to stop the Earth from destroying their city.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  21. Yes, Dana. I caught that, and would have corrected misef but for eating lunch. One New York idiot is like another to me…Cuuuuumo, De-Blase-O, T-rump, Giuliani…all part of a piece.

    Still, each is owed his name.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  22. @ Leviticus,

    These encroachments are only going to get more brazen as the pandemic wears on – and the tensions around them will intensify the longer it persists.

    We’re going to learn a lot about what we believe as a people (or a group of peoples) over the next six to eight months.

    What is the balance between protecting civil liberties and taking every measure to stop the spread of the virus – even if it bumps into those rights?

    Dana (4fb37f)

  23. 20. You don’t actually disagree with me, do you? That was just a knee-jerk on your part.

    Right?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  24. Dana (4fb37f) — 3/31/2020 @ 12:21 pm

    In addition to being a trial balloon to see the reaction to the idea of ” a temporary constitutional order could be drafted that would violate the Bill of Rights at any other time,” I take this as part of the struggle to move the Overton window.

    First there was talk of closing buildings, then it was revealed that they could remain open, but occupancy would be limited to X. Then X continued to diminish until the result was nearly the same as slowly boiling a frog.

    It is worth keeping an eye on the frogs that thrash about – you know the authorities do.

    felipe (023cc9)

  25. Subpoena Coronavirus and no sane court w/any ‘common sense’ would want Corny to appear.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. 22. At what point do you believe the government is no longer “bumping into” people’s rights, and instead is brazenly violating them? Closing churches doesn’t count, contra the 1st amendment? At what point do you think we’ve gone too far?

    Gryph (08c844)

  27. What is the balance between protecting civil liberties and taking every measure to stop the spread of the virus – even if it bumps into those rights?
    Dana (4fb37f) — 3/31/2020 @ 12:26 pm

    I appreciate this question, it sounds reasonable. “Balance.” Who is against balance? Who is against sustainability? Who is against equality, against love? What is the balance between a Mother and her child “clump of cells?” Just as murder is turned into “choice,” totalitarianism has been turned into “civil liberties.” You get to have them if you agree with them on their terms.

    Forgive the harshness of my words and the hardness of my heart on this subject. I am only making an analogy, not putting words in your mouth. The point is that there is such a thing as objective truth. Without objective Truth, how can we hope to base our decisions with Justice?

    felipe (023cc9)

  28. “make base our decisions”

    felipe (023cc9)

  29. 22. At what point do you believe the government is no longer “bumping into” people’s rights, and instead is brazenly violating them? Closing churches doesn’t count, contra the 1st amendment? At what point do you think we’ve gone too far?

    Gryph (08c844) — 3/31/2020 @ 12:40 pm

    I think if the rule is “No more than x in a building” it’s OK for the rule to apply to a church.
    Do you disagree?

    Time123 (80b471)

  30. If ‘churches’ are “tax-exempt” it does appear unseemly and outright opportunistic to have such organizations [including Falwell’s Liberty University] add to the burden and stresses on the medical the social services systems simply to exercise ‘blind faith’ or score political points.

    Faith, hope and prayer may ease your mind but it is not going to inhibit or stop the spread of this; common sense and science will.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  31. DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/31/2020 @ 1:01 pm

    I never took you for a member of the “if you have a penis, then you shouldn’t have a say on…”

    Oh yeah, and what hypocrites people of faith are to take medicine and see a doctor. If they really had faith…” Faith and reason go together. Pretending otherwise is simply foolish. Science is a great tool, don’t let it become your G*d.

    felipe (023cc9)

  32. “tax-exempt”

    I would agree with you if you applied that thinking to all such entities, not just “churches.” At least that position would have the virtue of being consistent. Can you imagine all the liberal entities that would wail if they found themselves treated the same as “churches?”

    felipe (023cc9)

  33. This isn’t about churches, any more than idiots going to parties. Stupid is as stupid does. In life it’s generally a good thing to distance yourself from stupid people, stupid places, doing stupid things. Showing up with 500 other people at church during a pandemic is all of them.

    If it was the local Hooter’s, same thing.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  34. This has become a “Papers Please” environment. Please stay off my lawn. My dog can get to the gate in 2.4 seconds. CAN YOU?

    mg (8cbc69)

  35. “What is the balance between protecting civil liberties and taking every measure to stop the spread of the virus – even if it bumps into those rights?”

    – Dana

    Ultimately, practically, I think the answer is “any balance that a people will tolerate for a given time frame.” The tension between human freedoms and human social contracts is fundamental and inescapable – it’s always there, always tense, and moments like this one bring it to the surface.

    “A given time frame” is important. What people will tolerate for a day, they may not tolerate for a week. What people will tolerate for a week, they may not tolerate for a month.

    When the tension/conflict between human freedom and human social contracts becomes irreconcilable, it becomes a matter of choosing sides. Simple as that, in my mind. All of these “stay at home” guidelines have shied away from strict enforcement as a means of avoiding the ultimatum – which is a meaningful comment on the side this country’s leaders expect its people to choose (if forced to choose).

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  36. A law that simply prohibited the gathering of more than 10 people would be flagrantly unconstitutional. A suggestion from government officials not to gather in groups of more than 10 people is fine. The difference between a law and a suggestion is enforcement – which is the constitutional bluff that will or will not be called in the coming months.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  37. My radishes, lettuce and arugula is up.

    mg (8cbc69)

  38. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/31/2020 @ 1:32 pm
    I completely agree.

    felipe (023cc9)

  39. mg (8cbc69) — 3/31/2020 @ 1:37 pm
    Heh! I like dogs. “Niiiice doggy.”

    felipe (023cc9)

  40. Leviticus (28a6ca) — 3/31/2020 @ 1:39 pm

    Good comment, thank you.

    felipe (023cc9)

  41. Alright, I’m gonna self-moderate, I talk too much. Sorry, DCSCA, for being so contentious. Where’s my whip?

    felipe (023cc9)

  42. A law that simply prohibited the gathering of more than 10 people would be flagrantly unconstitutional. A suggestion from government officials not to gather in groups of more than 10 people is fine. The difference between a law and a suggestion is enforcement – which is the constitutional bluff that will or will not be called in the coming months.

    The rights created by the First Amendment are not absolute. They are subject to reasonable restrictions as to time, place and manner, especially if those restrictions are content neutral.

    Restrictions narrowly tailored to protect against genuine threats public health and safety fall within the exception of the First Amendment even if they are not strictly content neutral, that is commonly described by the rubric that you don’t have a right to falsely cry “fire” in a crowded theater (causing a riot that could harm people).

    For example, suppose that a rope bridge over a deep gorge can only support the weight of ten people, and three dozen people want to hold a protest there. A regulation that prohibited more than ten people from engaging in the protest would be constitutional.

    Even then, however, a lack of content neutrality (e.g., restricting punishment to false statements likely to incite a riot) can’t also be a lack of ideological neutrality (e.g. restricting punishment to anti-Catholic but not anti-Jewish statements likely to incite a riot).

    If it were a political protest/gathering would this change?

    Generally speaking political protest/gatherings are still subject to content neutral regulations of time, place or manner, and those narrowly tailored to protect genuine threats public health and safety.

    So, for example, if there is a genuine COVID-19 risk that public health officials are trying to address, and the regulation of gatherings is not viewpoint or content based, it would be upheld as constitutional in the face of a First Amendment freedom of assembly limitation.

    But, if the regulation applied, for example, only to Republican and not Democratic party protests or gatherings, which is a viewpoint or content based restriction, it would not survive a First Amendment freedom of assembly challenge.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  43. Just under what and whose authority does the Mayor think that this can be done?

    He has an Article Two where he has the right to do whatever he wants as mayor?

    Dave (1bb933)

  44. I may have missed it, but did the word “Mosque” ever spew out of his ridiculous mouth?

    MJN1957 (0140eb)

  45. 29. Given that I believe in erring on the side of freedom, I think we’ve already gone too far. We went too far weeks ago. I think maybe I’m the wrong person to be asking these questions in this particular forum.

    Gryph (08c844)

  46. Let the churches stay open. Do you know how much pastors have to pay a month for their 2020 mercedes benz?

    rota (7b1de4)

  47. @44: — per D’s post:

    various houses of worship – that pretty much covers mosques. But it does reveal your mindset some… Golly. If only the dinosaurs had the Koran to wave at that killer asteroid to stop it cold from slamming into the Earth.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  48. The New Rules of Grocery Shopping Under Quarantine

    https://www.sunset.com/lifestyle/wellness/grocery-shopping-quarantine-covid-19
    __ _

    Hey it’s only Sunset Mag but they make some good points.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  49. Of course the right to assemble can be temporarily suspended during a pandemic, as long as it’s done in a content-neutral way.

    The constitution was written by people who were familiar with out breaks of *plague*, *smallpox*, and *measles*, all of which were more infectious and more deadly than this, and the idea of quarantine was well established. It was understood to be part of the state’s background police power, to be used only in times of public health emergency, and every court case that i’m familiar with has upheld it.

    The question is as a practical matter how do we enforce it? Jail is obviously bad (if for no other reason because when this disease gets loose in prisons it’s going to be terrible, and subjecting someone to that seems like a metaphorical cure that’s as bad as the metaphorical disease). So if fines don’t work, what next?

    I’d support permanently revoking the business license of a bar which repeatedly flouted this shutdown order and stayed open to crowds. Why should I be any less supportive of the same remedy imposed on a church?

    aphrael (7962af)

  50. >A law that simply prohibited the gathering of more than 10 people would be flagrantly unconstitutional.

    Leviticus, I don’t agree. There *is such a law in place* in California right now, and I think it’s constitutional, as part of the police power, as long as it’s reasonably targeted at preventing the spread of a deadly pandemic.

    aphrael (7962af)

  51. Today’s presser; gaslighting America:

    “We’re going to be paying ninety-nine cents a gallon for gasoline.”– President Donald J. Trump, 3-31-2020

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. All of this said, DeBlasio’s been doing a terrible job and should sit down, shut up, and let Cuomo appoint someone to run the city for him until the crisis has passed.

    aphrael (7962af)

  53. 50. Constitutional as part of a police power? Where in the constitution does it authorize such an action? Illuminate us, please.

    Gryph (08c844)

  54. DCSCA: how is that gaslighting? He might be right. The price of oil is collapsing for a variety of reasons and while it will eventually come back, further collapse is in the short term cards. The problem basically boils down to: a lot of wells will keep pumping because it’s uneconomical to restart them after a shutdown, so the owners have a self-interested desire to eke as much oil out of them as possible before shutting them down … and we’re close to being out of storage capacity, so the market is going to be *flooded* at a time when demand has precipitously dropped. Add on the effects of the Saudi/Russian price war and, outside of California, sub-$1.00 gasoline is well within the realm of possibility for a period.

    aphrael (7962af)

  55. Gryph, the fact that states have reserved police powers that persisted after the adoption of the constitution is basic constitutional theory. Shutting down movement of people to prevent the spread of a transmissible disease has repeatedly been held to be a legitimate use of the state reserved police power.

    If California wants to suspend all public gatherings for four months because it has a reasonable basis for believing that that is a necessary step to prevent the spread of a disease which credible modeling suggests could kill 2% of its population, California has the power to do that.

    It can’t *discriminate* based on viewpoint, it has to ban them all regardless of what they are, or it runs afoul of the first amendment. But *all* federally guaranteed constitutional rights can occasionally be infringed upon by rules that are narrowly tailored to meet a compelling government interest. There’s almost no government interest more compelling than preventing the spread of a disease of this nature and magnitude, and under the circumstances the rules seem likely to pass the “narrowly tailored” test in the eyes of just about any court.

    aphrael (7962af)

  56. A law that simply prohibited the gathering of more than 10 people would be flagrantly unconstitutional.

    Statutes already limit/restrict capacity of elevators, arenas, theatres, aircraft, etc., and so forth for public safety. Inhibiting the spread of a pandemic is a matter of public safety, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  57. @54. More apt: how is it not; he’s been blowing hot gas out the aft end of his service module all his life.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  58. I don’t believe bars enjoy the same Constitutional protections as churches. In point of fact, they enjoy none except under their own state laws:

    AMENDMENT XXI
    SECTION 2
    The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.

    nk (1d9030)

  59. I realize people become concerned when religion is implicated, but he’s doing the same thing as a sheriff who institutes a plainly unconstitutional curfew after civil unrest – he knows it is illegal, and he also knows by the time it is sorted out, the problem will have passed.

    Good executives know when to break the rules.

    john (cd2753)

  60. America’s been waging a war in Afghanistan for nearly 20 years and Trump says again today some general told him ‘we have no ammunition.’

    So Uncle Sam’s soldiers, ships and planes are unarmed?

    Yet he never says which general.

    More gaslighting.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. General Paresis.

    nk (1d9030)

  62. “ A law that simply prohibited the gathering of more than 10 people would be flagrantly unconstitutional.”

    Leviticus

    I should have been clearer – by “simply,” I meant “without qualification/limitation as to time and circumstance.”

    And as I indicated in that comment or the next one, time is the major issue. A law that prohibited all future gatherings of ten or more people (without limitation as to timeframe) would be flagrantly unconstitutional even if it was a law explicitly intended to prevent the spread of contagious diseases.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  63. Good executives know when to break the rules.

    And what does that have to do with DeBlasio? He is just a different species of New York sewer scum.

    I’ll say this, though. In New York City, DeBlasio is much more likely than the Drumpfelschnitzel to get away with shooting somebody on Fifth Avenue.

    nk (1d9030)

  64. So will a liberal couple who donate to dem causes to support the resistance drink gasoline in the next day or two?
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  65. 50. Constitutional as part of a police power? Where in the constitution does it authorize such an action? Illuminate us, please.

    “The Police power” is another name for the power of the states to do anything not forbidden by the constitution.

    Amendment 10: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

    The powers of the federal government are limited to those enumerated in the constitution, but the powers of the states are not.

    Dave (1bb933)

  66. Communists try to stop Christians from practicing their faith. In other news, dog bites man.

    NJRob (26b7a4)

  67. The powers of the states remain limited by the Bill of Rights, obviously.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  68. What we’re talking about is the tension between the Bill of Rights and the police powers of the states.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  69. Rodney Howard-Browne is … well … judge for yourselves.

    nk (1d9030)

  70. If a state had laws regulating nuclear power, and Pastor Homer Simpson installed a leaky, ill-maintained nuclear reactor in the altar of his church, irradiating the hapless parishioners and the surrounding neighborhood, wouldn’t the local or state authorities be entirely within their authority to arrest Homer and cordon off his church as a toxic waste site?

    Dave (1bb933)

  71. For those who may not already know this, the Free Exercise Clause does not permit human sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl, but I would be interested to know where you got that obsidian knife.

    nk (1d9030)

  72. How do they tell time in Italy?

    https://youtu.be/fvB3Uvdggxs

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  73. If a state allows people to gather and crowd in grocery stores for their physical health, how can they not permit crowds to gather in churches for their spiritual health?

    NJRob (26b7a4)

  74. For those who may not already know this, the Free Exercise Clause does not permit human sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl

    And all you need to do is look around to see the price we pay for that arrogance!

    We have angered the feathered serpent god and now he scourges us with a Drumpfenschnitzel, and a plague!

    We must regain his favor! Only the blood of innocents can appease him!

    Dave (1bb933)

  75. Several states have shut down gun stores despite the 2nd Amendment.

    Some states are trying to close abortion clinics, but the 3 1/2th Amendment seems to be protecting them.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  76. I predict that Florida is going to have quite a few deaths in the next few weeks. It’s kind of like Italy in that there are an abnormal number of old folks and the state has been blase about precautions. Hopefully the oldsters ahven’t been.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  77. 73. Rob, I find the very idea that the state can determine what businesses are “essential”, to be utterly repugnant on its face. They could declare anything an emergency now. The stage is set.

    Gryph (08c844)

  78. We must regain his favor! Only the blood of innocents can appease him!

    Where would Trump find a virgin? And at this point he’d need more than one.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  79. If a state allows people to gather and crowd in grocery stores for their physical health

    Around here, people are NOT crowding in grocery stores — they tend to stand a bit aside waiting for someone else to finish with a shelf — and the older folks are wearing gloves and masks if they can find them.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  80. Pastor Homer Simpson installed a leaky, ill-maintained nuclear reactor in the altar of his church

    Even if the reactor was part of the blessed sacrament, a malfunctioning reactor would still be the state’s business.

    But that’s not what we are talking about here.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. The powers of the federal government are limited to those enumerated in the constitution, but the powers of the states are not.

    A point, but in this case it is a national-security issue and the “invasion” clauses seem meaningful. Also the interstate-commerce clause, which has been twisted further than this before.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. A law that simply prohibited the gathering of more than 10 people would be flagrantly unconstitutional.

    A law that prevented such, limited to a time of contagion, would probably meet any strict test you cared to throw at it, so long as the gathering posed such risks. Some churches are conducting drive-in services in their parking lots, using low-power FM transmitters. You could call that a gathering, but there is little risk of contagion if everyone stays in their cars.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. Where would Trump find a virgin? And at this point he’d need more than one.

    I can think of a couple places.

    Dave (1bb933)

  84. @66 I mean, the terrible “communists” could just let them kill eachother with disease instead of trying to save their lives. Really, in the long run it might be better for the national gene pool.

    Legally speaking, you can involuntarily commit someone to a mental institution if they are a danger to themselves or others. If the pastor is under the delusion that they have “machines that kill the virus” which make it OK for them to meet in large groups and uses his undue power to influence stupid people to believe him, might that fall into the category of being a danger to others?

    Nic (896fdf)

  85. If a state allows people to gather and crowd in grocery stores for their physical health, how can they not permit crowds to gather in churches for their spiritual health?

    I know, right? Why isn’t Trump doing something? It’s his job to “take care that the laws be faithfully executed” and that includes the free exercise of religion.

    nk (1d9030)

  86. I can just picture minyam riots (ref: food riots). Men in black suits and hats with beards or long sideburns and women in ground-length skirts and headkerchiefs pelting the police with bagels and throwing Mogen David (ref: Molotov) cocktails. Wonder if DeBlasio can picture them too and that’s why he went on about it so much.

    nk (1d9030)

  87. “A law that prevented such, limited to a time of contagion, would probably meet any strict test you cared to throw at it, so long as the gathering posed such risks.”

    – Kevin M

    Agreed, and I clarified my prior remark at #62.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  88. I see all these college kids back on Cape. They should have blown up the Bourne and Sagamore Bridges!

    mg (8cbc69)

  89. Hey, mg. Number 72 is for you…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  90. Armchair QBs are the best!

    You mean like

    “I don’t want you to be the backup quarterback, we need you to be Tom Brady here”

    And Trump’s response…

    “Somebody in the fake news said, uh, one of the governors said, ‘Oh we need Tom Brady. I said, ‘Yeah.’ He meant that in a positive way. We need Tom Brady. And we’re gonna, uh, do great, and he meant it very positively but they took it differently. They think Tom Brady should be leading the effort. That’s only fake news and I like Tom Brady. Spoke to him the other day. He’s a great guy. But, uh, I wish, uh, that the news could be real. I wish it could be honest. I wish it weren’t corrupt. But so much of it is. It’s so sad to see.”

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  91. FWIW, the American Orthodox rabbinate has, more or less as a group, ordered that all synagogues and communal institutions close up and everyone pray at home. Even Passover seders should be limited to the immediate family.

    So DiBlasio should be safe from rioting Chasidim.

    [BTW, the word is minyan.]

    Kishnevi (7fbd73)

  92. “Somebody in the fake news said, uh, one of the governors said, ‘Oh we need Tom Brady. I said, ‘Yeah.’ He meant that in a positive way. We need Tom Brady. And we’re gonna, uh, do great, and he meant it very positively but they took it differently. They think Tom Brady should be leading the effort. That’s only fake news and I like Tom Brady. Spoke to him the other day. He’s a great guy. But, uh, I wish, uh, that the news could be real. I wish it could be honest. I wish it weren’t corrupt. But so much of it is. It’s so sad to see.”

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/31/2020 @ 7:14 pm

    I can easily see Biden saying this rambling garbage. If he did Team R would point out it’s evidence of poor cognitive function. Because hey, it is. The only funny thing about a Biden v Trump contest is that both sides will sound the same.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  93. It’s a great relief to know the president has time to chat with Tom Brady right now.

    Better him than “that woman from Michigan” who complains so much about her constituents dying, right?

    Dave (1bb933)

  94. [BTW, the word is minyan.]

    Darn! And there I was looking for a linguistic connection to “minimum”.

    nk (1d9030)

  95. Allahpundit shreds the GOP’s ludicrous new “impeachment” defense of Trump’s incompetence:

    McConnell: Impeachment “Diverted The Attention Of The Government” From Coronavirus Early

    If Trump’s impeachment trial were such a distraction from COVID-19, it’s strange that Mitch and Senate Republicans didn’t bang that drum at the time. They weren’t shy about using pragmatic arguments against the process. Lindsey Graham, for instance, made the point repeatedly that impeachment is always bitterly divisive and would hurt the country, which is why he wanted the trial over ASAP. If he and his colleagues thought coronavirus were a calamity descending upon America and feared that their trial duties were hampering their and Trump’s ability to respond to it, I feel like we would have heard that from them in January and February.

    A lot. Like, every four minutes. Not “no quid pro quo” or “bad, but not impeachable” every four minutes. “WE ARE FACING A ONCE-IN-A-CENTURY THREAT AND NEED TO DEVOTE OUR FULL ATTENTION TO IT” every four minutes.

    Nevermind that Trump has been claiming for months now that everything has been totally under control and everything the administration he has done since the beginning has been perfect, or better.

    He goes on to note that Trump wasn’t too distracted to take seven (!) golf outings between mid-January and March.

    Soon the narrative will be that our snowflake of a president was desperately trying to recover from the emotional toll of being so unjustly treated, making that somebody else’s fault too…

    Dave (1bb933)

  96. More indications that loss of smell and taste are a frequent symptom of infection

    LONDON, April 1 (Reuters) – Losing your sense of smell and taste may be the best way to tell if you have COVID-19, according to a study of data collected via a symptom tracker app developed by British scientists to help monitor the pandemic caused by the new coronavirus.

    Almost 60% of patients who were subsequently confirmed as positive for COVID-19 had reported losing their sense of smell and taste, the data analysed by the researchers showed.

    That compared with 18% of those who tested negative.

    Dave (1bb933)

  97. What, you mean the administration thought that at the end of January that the virus was going to be a boon to the US economy?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  98. “ Social distancing and stay-at-home orders are working to slow and blunt the ongoing coronavirus pandemic according to fever trend data aggregated by remote health monitoring company Kinsa Health. Kinsa has sold more than one million of its bluetooth-linked digital thermometers and their users upload their body temperature data to the company’s centralized database.

    The company’s stated mission is to “stop the spread of contagious illness through earlier detection and earlier response.” Data from its users’ thermometers have enabled the company to track the spread of flu in real time and forecast where it is headed in three to four weeks.

    The company has now devised a way to track the spread of the coronavirus pandemic by focusing on atypical fevers associated with COVID-19. The company is able to generate a U.S. Health Weather Map that tracks these atypical fever trends around the country. The New York Times reports that as of Monday morning, fevers were down in three-quarters of the country from their peak levels on March 17.

    In hard-hit New York City, Kinsa data show that the number of fevers is trending downward, which correlates with the good news that the COVID-19 hospitalization doubling rate in that city has dropped from two days to four days.

    The decline in reported fevers correlates strongly with the implementation of social distancing measures such as shutting down schools, along with bars and restaurants. The places that locked down earlier are the areas where the number of fevers began falling first.“

    https://reason.com/2020/03/31/possible-good-news-fewer-fevers-reported-nationwide-reports-smart-thermometer-company/
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  99. A nice survey (with graphics!) of our Dear Leader’s steely-eyed leadership over the course of this crisis.

    Dave (1bb933)

  100. A second pastor faces charges for violating coronavirus restrictions:

    On Tuesday police in suburban Baton Rouge, Louisiana, issued Pastor Tony Spell of Life Tabernacle Church a misdemeanor summons for six counts of violating the governor’s executive order barring large gatherings.

    The pastor was defiant:

    Spell, in a Facebook Live video after being served the summons at his church by two police officers, maintained his defiant stance.

    “We have not broken any law. We will not break any law,” Spell said.

    “We will continue to have church,” he continued. “This is a government overreach. They are asking us as a government to stop practicing our freedom of religion. And we have a mandate from God to assemble and to gather together and to keep doing what we’re doing.”

    The police chief made an unexpected comment:

    Instead of showing the strength and resilience of our community during this difficult time, Mr. Spell has chosen to embarrass us for his own self-promotion,” said Central Police Chief Roger Corcoran Tuesday in a statement.

    Mr. Spell will have his day in court where he will be held responsible for his reckless and irresponsible decisions that endangered the health of his congregation and our community,” Corcoran added.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  101. Speaking of the Constitution….

    This is a long slog but, is this an April Fool’s Joke?

    Beyond Originalism
    The dominant conservative philosophy for interpreting the Constitution has served its purpose, and scholars ought to develop a more moral framework.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/common-good-constitutionalism/609037/
    __ _

    harkin (b64479)

  102. It is preposterous that DeBlasio believes he can permanently close down the houses of worship that violate the city’s restrictions on holding church services. Just under what and whose authority does the Mayor think that this can be done?

    I might have missed it but does anyone support the permanent closure of these facilities? Even if we can’t agree on where the line is can we at least agree that this in on the wrong side of it?

    frosty (f27e97)

  103. Border patrol in 2018 stopped chinese with live sars and mers viruses in luggage.

    rota (f45494)

  104. Border patrol in 2018 stopped chinese with live sars and mers viruses in luggage.

    Source?

    Dave (1bb933)

  105. This is a long slog but, is this an April Fool’s Joke?

    Good question.

    It’s one of the more pointless and incoherent examples of sophistry I’ve run into in a while…

    Dave (1bb933)

  106. Well, the entire Rio Grande Valley is under shelter-in-place or stay-at-home orders, and the authorities are starting to get serious about enforcing them, and the number of confirmed cases of coronavirus doubled over the last two days.

    On the local news tonight, deputy sheriffs wearing face masks were seen breaking up crowds and pulling over drivers. “Right now, we’re just issuing warnings,” one said. “If they persist in violating the shelter-in-place order, we’ll start giving out tickets.”

    Nonessential businesses are closed. Essential businesses are limiting the number of customers allowed in stores at a given time.

    HEB has closed all entrances except one, outside of which stands a security guard. Customers have to stand in line outside, six feet apart. Entrance is permitted after a number of customers inside exit. Entire families are not allowed. In other words, leave the children home.

    Most restaurants are only offering carryout service or limiting the number of customers allowed in at a given time.

    It sucks, and it’s making my mother stir crazy. She still has work to do on her computer, but not much (all our listings had sold late last year and early this year, and we’ve only got two new listings since), updates mostly, revised price opinions, weekly reports. It doesn’t take her very long to do that, so she binges on Fox news. Or she comes downstairs and binges on Netflix or Amazon in my living room. She could do that upstairs in her home office, because my TV is better than hers, she says.

    It’s going to be a long, cruel summer.

    Oh, and I think the National Shrine will be closed for Easter.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  107. Gave my first (ever) remote lecture today, as the quarter gets rolling at school.

    A few kinks to iron out, but it went OK. It does seem to require more work in preparation.

    One of my students emailed me from China saying the government has him in a hotel under mandatory quarantine (presumably he returned home from the US in the last couple weeks) and he missed lecture due to a problem with the hotel’s internet.

    Dave (1bb933)

  108. grazie, col. laughs are needed.

    mg (8cbc69)

  109. Pretty simple-The Chinese lied and people died.

    mg (8cbc69)

  110. Our government takes orders from Blackrock. They are in bed with the chicoms. 86 this mofo Fink.

    mg (8cbc69)

  111. What kind of President lets Americans die because Chicoms lie? It’s a serious [family-making] question. Just what kind of an [incestuous family-making] President does that?

    nk (1d9030)

  112. #104/105

    This is source:

    https://www.nationalreview.com/news/border-patrol-stopped-a-chinese-biologist-carrying-viable-sars-mers-viruses-at-detroit-airport-in-2018/

    It does not support the idea floating around that coronavirus is some kind of bioweapon.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  113. In the Third Book of Moses, it was written:

    “What is the balance between protecting civil liberties and taking every measure to stop the spread of the virus – even if it bumps into those rights?”

    – (the better-looking) Dana

    Ultimately, practically, I think the answer is “any balance that a people will tolerate for a given time frame.”

    On February 28, 1933, President Paul von Hindenburg, at the urging of Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler, issued a decree suspending the freedom of speech and of the press, the freedom to organize and assemble, and the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications. Warrants for house searches and orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property were also made less difficult to get, all because of the ’emergency’ of the Reichstag fire. Scream “Emergency, emergency!” and it seems that you can get anything passed, in 1933 Germany, and 2020 America.

    Thus far we have seen restrictions on the freedom of religion, the right of the people to peaceably assemble, people placed under what amounts to house arrest without a day in court, for no crime, and without any semblance of due process of law. And the vast majority of the public are cheering this.

    Governor Andy Beshear (NSDAP-KY) ordered that a 53-year-old Nelson County man be confined to his home for 14 days because he had tested positive for COVID-19 and refused to self-quarantine. An armed guard was placed outside his home to enforce the order. Does anyone think that the Governor, or any other law enforcement official, could lock up someone for fourteen days that the police “knew” was a murderer who would strike again, but had no admissible evidence with which to take him to trial? But in the Bluegrass State, Mr Beshear has developed a cult-like following for his daily broadcasts.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  114. #114 —

    A strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means.

    Thomas Jefferson

    Appalled (1a17de)

  115. Does anyone think that the Governor, or any other law enforcement official, could lock up someone for fourteen days that the police “knew” was a murderer who would strike again, but had no admissible evidence with which to take him to trial?

    The flaw in your argument is that the civil authorities DO have evidence in this case.

    This is exactly the kind of thing that’s been commonplace for decades in this nation and around the world.

    For instance, it was common for a vessel to be “arrested” and put in quarantine when it was even suspected of carrying disease. No soul on board was allowed off the vessel until the quarantine had run.

    Nobody could get hysterical (though they would anyhow) over these same incidents as you describe if martial law were imposed, and thus far the civil authorities have stepped far back from that. Generally, people are acting pretty sensibly.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  116. Appalled @ 115: From your quote, “The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation,” you have just justified locking up — or executing — anyone we ‘know’ to be a danger, whether we can prove it in a court of law or not. Surely, according to Mr Jefferson’s statement, we could just lock up anyone who joins a gang, anyone credibly accused of any crime, even if we can’t quite put together the evidence needed for a conviction, because, you know, necessity!

    There have been, and still are, some countries in which those laws of necessity, of self-preservation, are the operative ones: The USSR, China, North Korea, and many others. Da’ish implemented the laws of what they saw as necessary, to toss homosexuals off of buildings, because to not do so would have jeopardized the ‘caliphate’ they wanted to build.

    To live in a free country, we accept a greater risk.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  117. “ Thus far we have seen restrictions on the freedom of religion, the right of the people to peaceably assemble, people placed under what amounts to house arrest without a day in court, for no crime, and without any semblance of due process of law.“

    – The Dana in Kentucky

    Thus far we have mostly seen strongly-worded suggestions. The example you raised about the house arrest is startling, but remains (for the time being) the exception rather than the rule – and constitutionally justifiable by virtue of the positive test. As more and more such examples arise, and the restrictions become A) more strongly enforced and B) enforced without respect to evidence of infection, then the constitutional problems will quickly crystallize.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  118. 118. “Constitutionally justifiable…” You have no idea just how disturbing I find those words, do you?

    Gryph (08c844)

  119. “ To live in a free country, we accept a greater risk.”

    – The Dana in Kentucky

    And it’s an equilibrium, not a binary. Risk and freedom are variables, and the adjustment of one tends to affect the other.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  120. I think I have a decent sense of it, Gryph. I find them disturbing too. There is nothing newfangled about that mindset, though.

    Think of it as broadening “qualified immunity” to cover the CDC.

    Leviticus (28a6ca)

  121. 121. Oh no. I don’t think you find them disturbing. Not enough to find your very justifications horrendous, as I do.

    Gryph (08c844)

  122. Leviticus said he finds this disturbing, too, and he has taken his time to discuss this topic because he thinks it is important.

    DRJ (15874d)

  123. Leviticus, what about the examples of people being arrested for having gatherings over the “approved limits” deemed necessary by the state?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  124. In the Third Book of Moses, it was written:

    Thus far we have mostly seen strongly-worded suggestions. The example you raised about the house arrest is startling, but remains (for the time being) the exception rather than the rule – and constitutionally justifiable by virtue of the positive test. As more and more such examples arise, and the restrictions become A) more strongly enforced and B) enforced without respect to evidence of infection, then the constitutional problems will quickly crystallize.

    Really?

    1 – Governess Gina Raimondo (NSDAP-RI) has issued orders for the Geheime Staatspolizei to stop and question motorists with New York license plates and knock on doors in coastal communities to identify people who’ve been to New York state.

    2 – Police in New Jersey have broken up parties, and Governor Phil Murphy has said that all such events will be crashed by police and the organizers will be subject to a “big fine.”

    3 – Several county sheriffs have suspended processing applications for permits to purchase firearms.

    4 – The Tarrant County, Texas, Commissioners passed an ordinance which holds that if someone breaks an emergency order in the county’s emergency management plan, they can be fined up to $1,000 or jailed for up to 180 days. This also applies to businesses that are open against emergency orders.

    5 – Governor Tom Wolf (NSDAP-PA) and Mayor Jim Kenney (NSDAP-Philadelphia) have ordered business closures and banned gatherings of more than ten people, anywhere, under penalty of fines and possible imprisonment, to be enforced by the police.

    I only linked the one, because multiple links throw comments into moderation, but I do have all of the links on my poor site. These aren’t “strongly-worded suggestions,” but executive orders, with the armed policemen to enforce them.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  125. Dana in Kentucky,

    Does the situation described below outrage you?

    https://www.kyaids.org/Disclosure_KAAQuarterly_Jan2016

    Appalled (1a17de)

  126. Really?

    1 – Governess Gina Raimondo (NSDAP-RI) has issued orders for the Geheime Staatspolizei to stop and question motorists with New York license plates and knock on doors in coastal communities to identify people who’ve been to New York state.

    this is wrong and needs to stop.

    2 – Police in New Jersey have broken up parties, and Governor Phil Murphy has said that all such events will be crashed by police and the organizers will be subject to a “big fine.”

    If this is legitimately based on public health concerns this is fine. Where I live the DNR will give you huge fines if you have a camp fire during a certain conditions

    3 – Several county sheriffs have suspended processing applications for permits to purchase firearms.

    Is this a pre-text to limit rightful ownership or is this a good faith effort to prioritize essential work?

    4 – The Tarrant County, Texas, Commissioners passed an ordinance which holds that if someone breaks an emergency order in the county’s emergency management plan, they can be fined up to $1,000 or jailed for up to 180 days. This also applies to businesses that are open against emergency orders.

    Ok. Tarrant County has elections coming up.

    5 – Governor Tom Wolf (NSDAP-PA) and Mayor Jim Kenney (NSDAP-Philadelphia) have ordered business closures and banned gatherings of more than ten people, anywhere, under penalty of fines and possible imprisonment, to be enforced by the police.

    Is this a pretext or is this a good faith effort at public health? Before that they wouldn’t let you put more than a certain number of people in a space due to fire safety. How is this different?

    I only linked the one, because multiple links throw comments into moderation, but I do have all of the links on my poor site. These aren’t “strongly-worded suggestions,” but executive orders, with the armed policemen to enforce them.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45) — 4/1/2020 @ 8:12 am

    I get that. But in dry seasons in some places they won’t let you have camp fires and close down some camp sites because it’s been shown that people will violate the burn ban. This seems like an analogous situation.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  127. Appalled: Knowingly infecting someone with HIV ought to be punished as a serious felony, but knowingly infecting someone with HIV isn’t the same thing as moving about freely even though you may have tested positive for COVID-19, because you can still practice social distancing. More, we allow such public movement to buy groceries and the like.

    Note that HIV is transmitted primarily by a deliberate act involving very close physical contact; people are not punished for simply having HIV.

    I note that California repealed its laws making it a felony to copulate with someone if you knew you had HIV without first informing that sexual partner, even though HIV/AIDS is always fatal unless a lifelong and hugely expensive medical care routine is followed, but several areas in the Pyrite State are restricting people’s movement, in general, because of the possible transmission of a disease which is serious, but is actually fatal in only 2% of cases.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  128. Mayor Garcetti of Los Angeles is encouraging snitching on businesses violating the “safer-at-home” order:

    Garcetti said that since the stay at home order was put in place, the city has been told about constructions sites that have not been following the guidelines set out in that order…includes having all construction sites submit a comprehensive COVID-19 exposure control plan that includes protocols for symptom checking, physical distancing, hygiene practices and decontamination procedures…The city will also be sending inspectors to active construction sites every day to ensure they are complying with the new guidelines…“We will not be shy about shutting down construction sites that do not comply, so comply…Garcetti also used the Tuesday briefing to encourage people in the community to report businesses that continue to violate the order…Four businesses have been referred to the city attorney’s office for misdemeanor filings.

    “You know the old expression about snitches, well in this case snitches get rewards,” Garcetti said. “We want to thank you for turning folks in and making sure we are all safe.”

    Dana (4fb37f)

  129. — Who draws the line?
    — Whoever’s got the pencil.

    Be grateful that I don’t “have the pencil”, because I’d lock you all up if I thought it was necessary to protect my brothers, my daughter and her mother, and all the other people I care about.

    nk (1d9030)

  130. And I’m not saying it would be at you homes, either.

    nk (1d9030)

  131. *your* homes

    nk (1d9030)

  132. 130-132. And I’m sure you’ll be the first in line to go to the gulag yourself if it means protecting someone else’s family. Right? Right?!

    Gryph (08c844)

  133. In Sept 1918 the city of Philadelphia decided not to cancel a parade honoring soldiers returning from Europe because it was also going to be a way to solicit Liberty Loan Bonds to help pay for the war effort.

    They went ahead and did this knowing the flu was already ravaging the Philadelphia Navy Yard.

    Over the next seven weeks over 12,000 people in Philadelphia died.

    St Louis also had a parade scheduled but they canceled it. Over the same time about 700 people died.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/15/us/philadelphia-1918-spanish-flu-trnd/index.html
    _

    It’s sad when we need laws and use of police to prevent people from doing the wrong thing in times of extreme crisis.

    I do agree however that vigilance will be needed when this is over to stop those who embrace authoritarianism from making any changes relative to increased power of the state.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  134. Re 129, which kind of construction sites and, ergo which kind of construction labor? It could be as illuminating as finding out many of the recent ____-on-Yellow hate crimes have been committed by NotWhites.

    urbanleftbehind (918775)

  135. NK, at 58, on the one hand, it’s true that bars don’t enjoy the same constitutional protection as churches.

    On the other hand, it’s true that states have broad power to shut down public gatherings to prevent the spread of infectious disease.

    You decide to keep your church open and only allow a handful of people in at a time and maintain 6 feet social distancing? Go right ahead. You decide to allow 100 people in a small place where everyone is right next to each other? To be perfectly honest, I think you should be charged with attempted murder, and losing your license to conduct business is a *small* price to pay.

    ——-

    NK, at 63: New Yorkers aren’t generally speaking happy with DeBlasio, his ratings are underwater. It’s just that the opposition has been incredibly hapless.

    ———-

    NJRob, at 73:

    I don’t know what the rule in NY is, but in the bay area, you *aren’t* allowed to gather and crowd in grocery stores. You’re allowed to *go to* the store, but the store has to have policies in place to maintain social distancing (and those policies must be posted) — nobody is allowed to be within six feet of each other, the total number of people in the store at any one time is limited. Most places have used tape on the sidewalk to mark out six foot distance *for people standing in the line to get in*.

    The issue is the *gathering* and the *physical closeness*.

    Furthermore, groceries are physical goods and require physical presence. Unless we’re talking about communion or its equivalent, spiritual services can be provided via zoom or other online communication method. It’s not the ideal way to provide such services, but it’s *possible*, and that makes churches and grocery stores imprecise analogies.

    Kevin M, at 75: surprisingly enough, I support the lawsuits that say that gun stores can’t be shut down entirely, although I think they should be subject to social distancing rules just like anywhere else.

    The problem with the abortion ruling is that abortion is time sensitive in a way that, say, a nip + tuck is not. Not allowing an abortion until after the end of the crisis is in many cases not allowing an abortion at all.

    Gryph, at 77: the states have *always* had this power, and they’ve used it before. Enforced shutdowns were common during the 1918 pandemic.

    Is there a reason you think this is more susceptible to abuse in 2023 after the crisis has passed than it was in 1920 after the crisis had passed?

    Kevin M, at 82: drive-in services using low-power FM transmitters seems like an acceptable compromise, and I feel the same way about drive-in movie theatres that aren’t selling concessions. I’d prefer it if the cars were forced to be 6 feet away from each other or windows were required to be closed, and that’s a technical detail.

    aphrael (7962af)

  136. Dana in Kentucky: would you support a system where large gatherings were allowed, but if anyone contracted the illness at the gathering and died from it, the organizer of the gathering could be prosecuted for murder?

    aphrael (7962af)

  137. And I’m sure you’ll be the first in line to go to the gulag yourself if it means protecting someone else’s family. Right? Right?!

    There would be no need to waste a gulag bunk on me. Even before the official lockdown, I was leaving the house only on Sunday mornings. I am a good citizen, and a socially responsible person, doing unto others as I would have them do unto me.

    nk (1d9030)

  138. My brothers, my daughter’s mother, many friends and relatives who are doctors, nurses, police, don’t have that option to leave the house only on Sunday mornings.

    nk (1d9030)

  139. harkin, at 134:

    > I do agree however that vigilance will be needed when this is over to stop those who embrace authoritarianism from making any changes relative to increased power of the state.

    I would agree with that. Once the crisis is passed we need to roll back all of these actions.

    aphrael (7962af)

  140. The better-looking Dana quoted:

    “You know the old expression about snitches, well in this case snitches get rewards,” Garcetti said. “We want to thank you for turning folks in and making sure we are all safe.”

    There are enough Spanish-speaking people in Los Angeles to recognize the term Comités de Defensa de la Revolución, instituted by Fidel Castro to spy on their neighbors for subversive thought or counter-revolutionary activity. It seems that the esteemed Mr Garcetti has been inspired by them.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  141. aphrael asked me:

    Dana in Kentucky: would you support a system where large gatherings were allowed, but if anyone contracted the illness at the gathering and died from it, the organizer of the gathering could be prosecuted for murder?

    No, because all those who have attended these church services or parties or whatever were attending voluntarily. It’s like the old HIV law: if you don’t disclose, you’re criminally liable, but if you do disclose and your potential bedmate consents to continue, then it’s on him.

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  142. Dana — ok, how about someone who gets infected and dies through exposure to someone who got infected at the church?

    Does the fact that a church is involved somehow render everyone no longer responsible for the impact their behavior has on the people around them?

    aphrael (7962af)

  143. aphrael: Through how many degrees of separation are you going to take this? Why would the church in question be any more liable for a second hand exposure such as you have suggested than the owner of a grocery store, who kept his store open as an essential business?

    The Dana in Kentucky (fd0d45)

  144. Quite aside from criminal liability, there is civil liability to consider. The coming day of CV-19 jurisprudence will be interesting. Will violation of a “stay at home” order trigger strict liability? Lots of interesting questions!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  145. Spell spells ‘s-t-u-p-i-d’ in hot-spot Louisiana, y’all.

    If the Pope- the Head Cheese of the Catholic Church on Planet Earth- can preach to an empty St Peter’s Square and still get the Holy word out, idiot Spell can preach to his flock safe in their homes via Facebook, Skype or on his rotary dial phone w/o endangering others. Jaysus, these zealots are selfish, ignorant, snake-oil-pitching-twits.

    Kudos to Police Chief Roger Corcoran for showing who has the greater good in his mind, heart and soul.

    ‘Book him, Danno.’ – Steve McGarrett [Jack Lord] ‘Hawaii Five-O’ CBS TV, 1968-1980

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  146. Florida’s Gov. DeSantis is now set to issue a statewide stay-at-home order. It’s similiar to other states:

    The order says “all persons in Florida shall limit their movements and personal interactions outside of their home to only those necessary to obtain or provide essential services or conduct essential activities.”

    From the list of “essential activities” allowed: Attending religious services conducted in churches, synagogues and houses of worship.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  147. @147. Golly. On April 1, too– his day for it; there are no coincidences:

    “In the United States, spring break at works, universities and colleges can occur from March to April…” -source, wikipartyanimal

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  148. @129 Job sites are always required to follow safety standards or risk being shut down. State regulators might care a little more right now, but the requirement to follow whatever the safety standards are is SOP.

    Nic (896fdf)

  149. > than the owner of a grocery store, who kept his store open as an essential business?

    the grocery store isn’t letting 500 people in at one time, for one thing.

    densely packed gatherings of people are one of the worst things imagineable right now. churches that are staying open and inviting that kind of crowd are actively harming both their congregations and their congregants’ communities, and are a public health menace.

    aphrael (7962af)

  150. > From the list of “essential activities” allowed: Attending religious services conducted in churches, synagogues and houses of worship.

    a decision which will get people, including people who don’t attend the services in question, killed.

    aphrael (7962af)

  151. Texas too:

    Churches, synagogues and mosques in San Antonio and Bexar County can technically resume in-person religious services under Texas Gov. Greg Abbott’s latest emergency order handed down Tuesday.

    Abbott’s new order classifies religious services at places of worship as essential — overruling previous orders handed down by Wolff and San Antonio Mayor Ron Nirenberg.

    Those orders prohibited places of worship from holding services in-person but encouraged religious leaders to instead conduct services remotely through video, teleconferencing and other means.

    Abbott said religious services should either be conducted remotely or in-person using social distancing guidelines. He added that “drive-up services,” where congregants would remain in their cars, which some churches plan to use this Easter, would “satisfy the criteria that we’re talking about.”

    Dana (4fb37f)


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