Patterico's Pontifications

3/26/2020

Over 3 Million People File New Jobless Claims in One Week

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:28 am



Labor Department:

That is a record number. Fox Business:

The number of Americans filing for unemployment surged to 3.28 million last week, shattering a decades-old record in jobless claims as the coronavirus pandemic forced businesses around the country to shutter their doors.

The number eclipsed the previous record of 695,000 set in 1982 and is well above the levels seen in the midst of the 2008 financial crisis, the Labor Department said in its weekly report. The data dates back to 1967.

It’s just getting started. I agree with Josh Barro:

The head of the Fed says we “may” be in a recession. Ya think?

235 Responses to “Over 3 Million People File New Jobless Claims in One Week”

  1. We need to get Americans back to work and infecting each other. Once we are overrunning hospitals and killing Americans by the hundreds of thousands, the economy will improve.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. Breathe in, breathe out, right, Kevin M?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  3. 1. 2. This is what blind panic looks like, ladies and gentlemen.

    Gryph (08c844)

  4. Neil Ferguson botched it up. The Imperial Model was wrong.

    Gryph (08c844)

  5. This is what informed science and a public health response looks like.

    Alllllllll over the world.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  6. Felipe quietly gulps the last of his whiskey, puts on his hat, and walks out of the saloon nervously.

    felipe (023cc9)

  7. 5. Did you forget your sarc tag, Raggy?

    Gryph (08c844)

  8. Those people need to get back to work, and die.

    Dave (1bb933)

  9. Moana, my moniker here is Ragspierre.

    My statement is true.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  10. Felipe meets nk on the road, stops him with the advice, “don’t go in there, right now”

    nk rubs his chin and says”oh, yeah?”

    felipe (023cc9)

  11. 9. Aw, am I hurting your feelings, Raggy? I’m sure Patterico has a safe space for you over in park where you can take a walk while you self-isolate.

    Gryph (08c844)

  12. 11. That is pure, rather stupid, trolling.

    I made a plain statement of fact. I guess facts are intolerable to you, because you sure got defensive!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  13. The $1200 – $2400 gubmint cheese isn’t going to be enough, nor will it get here fast enough.

    We’re definitely heading into recession for the rest of the year.

    whembly (51f28e)

  14. We’re definitely heading into recession for the rest of the year.

    Depression for 3 years, 5 million dead.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  15. Gryph (08c844) — 3/26/2020 @ 8:38 am

    You very much underestimate what blind panic actually looks like.

    frosty (f27e97)

  16. Depression for 3 years, 5 million dead.

    Wow, that’s 3 million fewer than in a normal 3 year span.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  17. What was the point of your comment, Colonel Klink? Everyone, including you, knew I was referring to COVID casualties.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  18. What was the point of your comment, Colonel Klink? Everyone, including you, knew I was referring to COVID casualties.

    Based on your previous comments, it is not at all clear what you meant.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  19. I wonder how China’s economy is doing. They’ve made so many countries so dependent on their factories that they’re willing to go after their own citizens for criticizing Chinese actions (The NBA/Hong Kong incident should have woken up a few folks but instead they just increased the kowtow).
    __ _

    Meanwhile…….

    Coronavirus (COVID-19) Alerts
    @coronaviruscare
    ·
    640,000 Coronavirus Rapid Test kits purchased by Spain from China have been found to be substandard. Microbiology laboratories in Spain report that the tests have a sensitivity of 30% when it should exceed 80%.

    https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-25/los-test-rapidos-de-coronavirus-comprados-en-china-no-funcionan.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true
    __ _

    पुलकित वशिष्ठ Flag of India
    @Pandit_Ji_719
    ·
    Similarly, The Czech Republic received 150,000 coronavirus test kits from China. About 80% of the tests give false results.
    Czechs have gone back to traditional tests.
    __ _

    Victorian Dad
    @Victorian__Dad
    ·
    Yes- and I distinctly remember the PM and his scientists being torn a new hole yesterday over other countries buying tests m- despite the fact they pointed out you have to make sure they work first..why don’t our journalists get off their backs and trust them ffs
    __ _

    Gonçalo Carriço
    @goncalocarrico
    ·
    With “friends” like this, who needs enemies. But one thing they got it right: PR. All over Europe you only hear that China is helping and the EU is not (even though we know that health competencies are very limited)
    __ _

    Wessex
    @wessex007
    ·
    Imagine the media outcry if that happened here. The constant baying for tests every day forcing a government to buy tests that don’t work. Yes more tests needed but only if we can be certain they work.
    _ _

    Chandan
    @IndiCSi
    ·
    Will the Spaniards get their money back?

    __ _

    harkin (b64479)

  20. I know I’m a nobody here… but could we please dial back the “gotcha game” here please?

    Instead of going for a dig at a poster because you assume their position, maybe ask for clarification first?

    whembly (51f28e)

  21. What was the point of your comment, Colonel Klink? Everyone, including you, knew I was referring to COVID casualties.

    I didn’t know that. I thought you were estimating how many would die from the economic hardship.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  22. Just a quick example of how everything Trump utters, the leftist turn into a lie.

    At Cumo’s press conference today he claimed that NY was now in good shape with PPE.
    The New York Post ran a story on their front page, with NYC nurses wearing garbage bags because they had no PPE

    If President Trump had the exact same circumstance, the leftist would call it a lie.

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  23. I know I’m a nobody here… but could we please dial back the “gotcha game” here please?”

    Disagree, you ain’t a nobody.

    Agree 100% with the sniping, tho. I’ve never blocked anyone here but a few are going at it sports board level and (even worse) it jumps thread-to-thread and is extremely tiresome. Making it personal and repetitive serves no purpose whatever.

    My two cents.
    __

    harkin (b64479)

  24. This is when real priorities get sorted out. You Angelenos remember, Mayor Garcetti would like you to harass anybody you see walking on the streets… hector them for not sheltering in place.

    May this thing be short lived.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  25. 22

    I do not think “example” means what you think it does…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  26. Listening to the President’s remarks at the news conference yesterday, I was struck by the sense that his view of the current pandemic is informed primarily by financial considerations. From that standpoint, his difficulty in communicating empathy for the afflicted is understandable. He is what he is.

    John B Boddie (286277)

  27. harkin (b64479) — 3/26/2020 @ 9:03 am

    I wonder how China’s economy is doing.

    This depends entirely on them convincing everyone else to get back to work and to keep buying from China. I suspect it’s not doing so well at either one.

    frosty (f27e97)

  28. We are in uncharted waters… a “recession” doesn’t quite describe this.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  29. MAOA, i wasn’t trying to attack you. I just wanted to let you know that I had misunderstood your point. Sorry if it came across that way.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  30. He is what he is.

    An observation many of us have been shouting from the mountain tops since 2015.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  31. @22, maybe if there weren’t so very many clear examples of him lying, and many more examples of my ‘mistateting facts’ and ever more examples of him just uttering none-sense then people would be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  32. How many deaths can you carry in YOUR wallet? Samuel L. DNC commercial.

    The center is not going to hold. Not this time. Le deluge commencer.

    GB’s Ferguson walking back his dire forecast (now only 10K deaths among elderly who would otherwise live out to 2021) is the beginning of the Roseanne Roseanna Danna of our betters who insisted their models, which were entirely based on garbage data from PRC (all Covid-19 data is) were valid enough to trigger an alltime ruinous economic tsunami.

    We long ago accepted upwards of 100K flu deaths in a given year without seriously considering anything close to the self-imposed shutdowns we have implemented. Today, we stupidly refused to demand valid data and allowed the imaginations of Dr. Doom and company to dictate a catastrophic response.

    The precise same scheme is at hand in the AGW global warming fraud. The MODELS, the MODELS, the MODELS!

    I got 3.2 million models for ya right now, geniuses.

    Ed from SFV (950df5)

  33. And also Cuomo didn’t say that the PPE situation was “fine” end of sentence. It was fine for the next several days before it becomes critical again. They are consuming the vast majority of the national output, so NYC being “fine” for a few days is at the cost of New Orleans, et al, being “not fine”.

    Context matters.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  34. 32… you need to get wit’ the spirit of this thing, Ed!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  35. “ This depends entirely on them convincing everyone else to get back to work and to keep buying from China.”

    I can’t imagine the world’s relationship with China to be the same after this but they have a serious PR wing that (based on everything I’ve seen) is aided and abetted by China money and business being so firmly entrenched in media, business, sports and governments.

    Then again, the one sure-fire bet about learning from history is that we keep supplying examples of not learning from history.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  36. MAOA, i wasn’t trying to attack you. I just wanted to let you know that I had misunderstood your point. Sorry if it came across that way.

    I apologize too. Even before reading your comment, which was gracious, I realized I had come across as snippy at best.

    I really do think you should watch that until at least the 25 minute mark. The first 22 minutes are mainly science, and the next 3 minutes are him pointing out the conflict of interest in government-funded researchers who say, for sure, this is zoonotic. He definitely isn’t saying there aren’t viral sequences from other diseases in animals. He’s commenting on the likelihood that they got there naturally, including HIV sequences.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  37. With that in mind, harkin… https://youtu.be/tzuJXqgsiSM

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  38. Some people with jobs clearly don’t understand what it’s like to now be without a job. And they don’t understand that there may be no job to return to because their employer had to shut down his business because there was no demand for it because ther were no clients/customers, and therefore will have no need to hire anyone back. This isn’t just a “cash” problem:

    Asked what his reaction was to seeing the 3.28 million new unemployment claims reported for the past week on CNBC’s “Squawk on the Street,” Mnuchin said, “To be honest, I think these numbers right now aren’t relevant whether they’re bigger or shorter in the short term.”

    “Obviously, there are people who have jobless claims, and the good thing about the bill is the president is protecting those people,” Mnuchin said.

    “So now with these plans, small businesses hopefully will be able to hire back a lot of those people.”

    “Last week they didn’t know if they had protections. They didn’t have any cash,” Mnuchin said.

    “Now with this bill passed by Congress, there are protections, and, as I said, hopefully those workers will be rehired.”

    Mnuchin is completely out of touch with what it’s like to be unemployed and doesn’t have the gobs of money that he has, which insulates from the panic that can come with losing a job and/or seeing your employer go under, especially if you are the breadwinner upon whom otherse depend.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  39. A few questions, thoughts —

    1. UK deaths change was based on the shelter in place order now policy in the UK. Good news, certainly, but not an incentive to go to Church on Easter.

    2. New Orleans and New York are scary, sure. But what’s up with the drop off in Washington state? Does it tell us anything useful about New York and New Orleans

    3. Trump may be doing better in the polls because he at least is willing to look at how we bring an end to the misery. He is delusional and may get people killed, but he is looking past just scaring people.

    4. The failure is the testing. You can’t know what to do unless you know where the sickness is. Trump’s leadership failure has been not moving heaven and earth to get the tests out and failing to follow NSC pandemic procedures. Since there seems to be a shortage of tests in the UK too, I’m thinking this is an international problem except in South Korea.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  40. Some people with jobs clearly don’t understand what it’s like to now be without a job. And they don’t understand that there may be no job to return to because their employer had to shut down his business because there was no demand for it because ther were no clients/customers, and therefore will have no need to hire anyone back. This isn’t just a “cash” problem:

    Yeah, it’s going to be incredibly rough.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  41. We must destroy the economy to save it.

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/epidemiologist-my-situation-highlights-the-risk-of-widespread-lockdowns

    Results inconclusive.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  42. This is someone who is completely out of touch with what it’s like to be unemployed

    I don’t see how you come to this conclusion based on what he said. I’m sure he’s aware that for those without unemployment benefits and/or who aren’t rehired, it will be hard.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  43. #28

    We are in uncharted waters… a “recession” doesn’t quite describe this.

    Before Herbert Hoover decided that he preferred the word “depression”, serious economic downturns were called panics (like the Panic of 1892). It seems very appropriate to this downturn.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  44. By the way, my 5 million in America dead from COVID (-19, -20, -21 possibly) in 3 years estimate is based on poor response from us in terms of getting the treatments, timing of the treatments, and who we prioritize treating wrong. I hope that’s a worst case scenario and we can do better.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  45. I can’t imagine the world’s relationship with China to be the same after this but they have a serious PR wing that (based on everything I’ve seen) is aided and abetted by China money and business being so firmly entrenched in media, business, sports and governments.

    Then again, the one sure-fire bet about learning from history is that we keep supplying examples of not learning from history.
    _

    harkin (b64479) — 3/26/2020 @ 9:39 am

    When you have communists indoctrinating our children in schools and putting bans on saying where the virus originated as well as covering up China’s spread of the virus it’s easy to see history repeating itself.

    For those who are absolutists when it comes to free trade, are any reconsidering some aspects on the free movement of peoples and allowing all our manufacturing and drug processing to take place offshore because it’s cheaper and more efficient?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  46. 37 Haiku.

    Yes, there are things worse than pandemics

    Bleaching my eyes and ears….
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  47. I really do think you should watch that until at least the 25 minute mark. The first 22 minutes are mainly science, and the next 3 minutes are him pointing out the conflict of interest in government-funded researchers who say, for sure, this is zoonotic. He definitely isn’t saying there aren’t viral sequences from other diseases in animals. He’s commenting on the likelihood that they got there naturally, including HIV sequences.

    If you think it’s that good I’ll check it out later today.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  48. “ When you have communists indoctrinating our children in schools………”

    Yes you make a good point. There are many people here who think the Communist China model is the goal for everywhere.

    I still remember 2008 Obama rallies in the Bay Area where Chinese flag and Che’ t-shirts were ubiquitous.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  49. @47, You ate the onion there CH.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  50. Two random thoughts/anecdotes:

    1. I think many of the models are based in large part on China’s experience and results with the virus. I also think some of that information is reliable, but I am certain that China has not tested 3 billion people (or a billion) so there are limits to what that tells us. In addition, I do not trust China to be forthcoming with the information they know.

    2. I had to go to the hospital yesterday with a family member (not coronavirus) and it is locked down. Most doors were locked and the open entrances had guards and checkpoints. You had to have an appointment and get wristbands showing where you were allowed to be. An escort walked you to your destination. No family are allowed in the hospital except with dementia and special needs patients. The hospital was virtually empty in the halls. It actually made me feel safer to know they are doing this.

    DRJ (15874d)

  51. “ Who are these people!?!?”

    Titania is a parody account parroting the most ridiculous PC memes and one of the best things on the interwebs.
    __

    harkin (b64479)

  52. “ The hospital was virtually empty in the halls. It actually made me feel safer to know they are doing this.”

    My sister is an ICU RN and she thinks the silver lining to the pandemic is the barring of visitors to hospitals except in the instance of grave situations where a limited number of family members are admitted one at a time.

    Of course the hardships on patients far outweigh the positives (lots of people are going to die alone in the next few weeks) but she says visitors bring so many negatives that barring them helps make the whole situation bearable.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  53. Just imagine how worse it would be if Mr. President Trump had not made America great, with huge reserves in the Treasury and in the economy, and our health care system the most prepared in the world.

    nk (1d9030)

  54. based in large part on China’s experience and results with the virus.

    This virus targets white males disproportionately.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  55. Re Appalled #39-1- if one really wants to the whole crowded service dress-up thing for Easter, this is opportune time to return to the church of Constantinople, huh, nk?

    urbanleftbehind (c072ae)

  56. “ This virus targets white males disproportionately”

    The young woke set on one of the off-topic boards I frequent thinks it’s a blessing that will take down the white male patriarchy and calls it the Boomer Remover.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  57. I agree, harkin 53. A friend who works in a nursing home said many of her dementia patients have already forgotten their families because they can no longer visit. Those visits were helping them keep a few memories of who they are, and now they are going downhill fast.

    In addition, at the hospital yesterday, I was told many doctors have stopped treating patients with chemo and other immune-suppressing drugs so they won’t be more susceptible to the virus. That means some/many cancer and autoimmune patients may relapse. I know from experience that if you stop, the treatments may not work again when you restart.

    This tells me there will be a lot of coronavirus deaths that aren’t classified as such.

    DRJ (15874d)

  58. Our church is on lockdown, too, urbanleftbehind. Only the priests and chanters are allowed in the church for the liturgy. The rest of us will need to stream it.

    nk (1d9030)

  59. It will get worse:

    “With containment measures still being extended … we now expect GDP to plunge by 40% annualised in the second quarter, with as many as 14m jobs likely to be lost over the coming months … pushing the unemployment rate up to around 12%, higher than the 2009 peak.”

    Dana (4fb37f)

  60. This virus targets white males disproportionately.

    Please provide evidence of this.

    Males yes, white males, zero evidence of this. Males are also more likely to have the underlying health issues, e.g. smoking, heavy drinking.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  61. Ours, too, nk. No communion and a pianist, violinist, and soloist spaced f-a-r apart.

    DRJ (15874d)

  62. It must be a kind of an apostasy to hold services without a congregation I guess, because our Metropolitan had to get permission from the whole Synod.

    nk (1d9030)

  63. I guess, but it was our Bishop that told my church to close, on orders from higher ups. We were still holding services. The Governor’s order limiting gatherings over 10 people specifically excludes churches.

    DRJ (15874d)

  64. I agree, harkin 53. A friend who works in a nursing home said many of her dementia patients have already forgotten their families because they can no longer visit. Those visits were helping them keep a few memories of who they are, and now they are going downhill fast.

    My grandmother in law is 93 and in a memory ward, in a large private care facility. They have a significant portion of the patients and staff that are CV-19 positive. They’ve had double the typical deaths in the last week, that’s just a data point, but they’re not testing the dead, but 100% of them were ARDS related, normally there are a few other reasons. We’ll see what happens this week. They’ve not allowed visitors in a month, and there’s no way my GIL will know anyone, but she may not know that time has passed either, so I guess that’s potentially a plus. Other than alzheimer’s, she’s healthy as a teenager, she’s also 103.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  65. Males yes, white males, zero [as of yet, I don’t know] evidence of this. Males are also more likely to have the underlying health issues, e.g. smoking, heavy drinking.

    There’s a biologically based argument of this based on the density of receptor sites this virus targets on Shaun Attwood’s YouTube channel in the first half of “Is Coronavirus A Bioweapon? Dr Paul Cottrell” posted on March 23rd.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  66. 93, jeez fat fingers

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  67. There’s a biologically based argument of this based on the density of receptor sites this virus targets on Shaun Attwood’s YouTube channel in the first half of “Is Coronavirus A Bioweapon? Dr Paul Cottrell” posted on March 23rd.

    So your evidence of your claim is a conspiracy fantasy? Great, as long as you’re consistent.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  68. Further to 66, it has been widely reported COVID-19 disproportionately affects people with Type A blood, and Caucasians are the race with the highest percentage of people who have type A blood.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  69. I am sorry, Colonel Klink. I hope she gets to see her family again and that her caregivers treat her like family

    DRJ (15874d)

  70. You’re amenable to neither evidence nor reason, Colonel Klink.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  71. You’re amenable to neither evidence nor reason, Colonel Klink.

    Provide one, pick which one.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  72. I see no evidence or reason to slime Col. Klink because he does not fall in line with your premises.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  73. MAOA, I suggest you be less certain about your beliefs and more open to other possibilities. For instance, you are clearly convinced and have said repeatedly that the anti-malarial drugs are cures and not using them is a death sentence for coronavirus patients based on a flawed French study. Another small study in China found the opposite:

    Malaria Drug Chloroquine No Better Than Regular Coronavirus Care, Study Finds

    The drugs may help some people and not others. There is so much we don’t know and this is a good time to be less certain.

    DRJ (15874d)

  74. I hope they make some effort to prioritize the $1,200 vote-bounty so the heretofore employed get their check first. (It’s supposed to go on to the end of the year and everybody, even the retired and otherwise unemployed, gets a check.) If current W-2s and estimated tax payments by the self-employed are too much work, at least by way of 2019 and 2018 tax returns having been filed.

    nk (1d9030)

  75. I am sorry, Colonel Klink. I hope she gets to see her family again and that her caregivers treat her like family

    Every generation thinks they were the cool edgy generation. She thinks she’s in her late teens and she’s filthy, the 50’s must have been a party.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  76. God bless her! I don’t know about the 50’s but I bet she was great.

    DRJ (15874d)

  77. Every reasoned conclusion is predicated on what premises one accepts. This why reason can be very fallible.

    Many times, a premise is largely accepted on faith. I’ve heard it said (and I often say it) that there is no greater example of a faith-based system than college. Students are taught things they will never…and to a degree can never…test empirically.

    It pays to be a critical thinker, and maintain a healthy skepticism.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  78. I think the money only goes to folks who are unemployed now or, if employed, who made less than X last year. I am not sure what X is.

    DRJ (15874d)

  79. I am not sure what X is.

    It starts at $75,000. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/25/congress-to-send-taxpayers-1200-checks-in-the-wake-of-coronavirus.html Another poke in the eye for the upper-middle earners, the same ones who got hornswoggled by the tax cut.

    nk (1d9030)

  80. Yep. It hits small business owners hard, too.

    DRJ (15874d)

  81. I suggest you be less certain about your beliefs and more open to other possibilities.

    Out of curiosity, why are you talking to me about that and not, say, Colonel Klink? He’s the one who isn’t open minded. Just read the convo between us on this thread.

    Anyhow, as for hydroxchloroquine/chloroquine, the Chinese study was so small, by its own admission, as to be statistically insignificant. They also did not use the same protocol that doctors such as New York’s Dr. Zelenko are using with success: specifically hydroxychloriquine WITH azithromycin AND zinc. I was advocating a combination of these three drugs before ever hearing about him (plus melatonin, which has shown effectiveness against numerous viruses, both human-affecting and animal, including West Nile and SARS-CoV).

    Further, I have said ad nauseum the info we have on (at least three, including Avigan, and I would expect it to be the same for chloroquine) anti-viral therapies against SARS-CoV-2 only work well if started EARLY. The data shows that treating people with advanced disease and severe existing sequelae is fairly ineffective, something I’ve also said much.

    So at what stage were these patients even treated with hydroxychloroquine alone? I haven’t heard that reported anywhere. Was it, in this statistically insignificant trial, even at a stage in the disease where I’ve advocated it as effective?

    However, yes, I’m open to the possibility it won’t work, as is President Trump. The point about chloroquine is we have 65 years of data on its safety/risk profile, and that’s often for multi-year usage. Dr. Zelenko’s protocol is for a mere five days (other protocols are for as much as ten). And, yes, I’ve made the point more than once that we need to practice social distancing now not only so we can manufacture more of these drugs, so we can also determine which protocols work best.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  82. How very Steppe Nomad’y, you’re hopeful study made zero claim as to improving clinical outcomes. As far as Zev Zelenko, he’s a joke. J-O-K-E.

    You’re misinformation puts people in danger.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  83. CK, I don’t think MAOA is Steppe Nomad.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  84. Zev Zelenko, he’s a joke. J-O-K-E.

    I disagree.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  85. My grandmother in law is 93 and in a memory ward, in a large private care facility. They have a significant portion of the patients and staff that are CV-19 positive. They’ve had double the typical deaths in the last week, that’s just a data point, but they’re not testing the dead, but 100% of them were ARDS related, normally there are a few other reasons. We’ll see what happens this week. They’ve not allowed visitors in a month, and there’s no way my GIL will know anyone, but she may not know that time has passed either, so I guess that’s potentially a plus. Other than alzheimer’s, she’s healthy as a teenager, she’s also 103.

    This is so sad. My mom is 90, and has been on complete lockdown. No one in and no one out of her facility. Meals are delivered to their doors, and any items family members want to bring, are dropped off outside the office and a nurse delivers them. So far, the Alzheimer/Dementia wing has had no confirmed infections of coronavirus. Mom is in one of the independent living cottages, so it’s a little bit less of a risk. But I have noticed that the lack of company and physical contact is getting to her. Although she’s and avid reader, jigsaw and crossword puzzler, etc., and even though her kids call her everyday and chat about any random thing we can to keep engaged with her, she is feeling lonely and going stir-crazy. It didn’t help matters that rumors floated this week that one person was allowed a visitor, and now word on the street is that they are plotting a rebellion. I’ve had to remind mom that this is just gossip, and for her to start mingling with others and having visitors would put all of them at serious risk. I feel so badly for our elderly.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  86. You’re misinformation puts people in danger.

    Since they can only get hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine and azithromycin from their doctors (and many physicians across America wish to be able to prescribe them and are purchasing them for themselves and their families), I think that’s not really a concern.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  87. That 3.3 million number might actually be far worse:

    The 3.3 million new unemployment insurance claims that the Labor Department reported Thursday is likely a significant undercount, experts say, because laid-off workers have been calling into state unemployment agencies much faster than the agencies can process their requests.

    “There is reason to believe … that even the 3.283 million figure understates the case,” said Richard Moody, chief economist at Regions Financial Corporation. “Many states have reported their systems for processing claims have crashed under the weight of unprecedented volumes.”

    The disparities between unemployment claims reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics and ground-level reports from state agencies can be enormous.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  88. That 3.3 million number might actually be far worse:

    Having just walked down the streets of New York City (mask and goggles on), I’m pretty sure of it.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  89. My mom is 80, and is very socially active, and this has been really difficult. She’s on respiratory therapy with severe asthma during normal times, just the normal flu is extremely dangerous. The thing that is most difficult for her is that she has 2 grandkids that live less than a mile away, 4 and 11, and both have had birthdays in the last 2 weeks, and her not being able to visit them has been trying. I’ve got the iPhone tracking app running full time to make sure she isn’t out.

    I’m going to go to the Costco this afternoon for toilet paper and drive it up to her, my coffee maker died, so that’s a big problem too, but I’ll just drop the TP at her door and turn around. Northern Kentucky has been pretty orderly, with little of the hoarding problem compared to Columbus where she’s at.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  90. My mother’s in the same situation in her assisted living facility in OC. Residents must stay in their rooms, no visitors. She’s 85 now. My brother and sister live within 30 miles of her, but we live in NorCal, so I’ve tried to make sure I call her every other day for years now. Just this morning, I sent our sons and daughter a reminder to take a little time and give her a call.

    Even talking on the phone can make things a little easier for our our older loved ones.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  91. It’s tough. I’m sorry Klink and Haiku that you too are unable to visit in person. It would clearly cheer them on to see you. My mom is two blocks away, but it might as well be two states. We tried to get her to use FaceTime, but like so many elderly people, technology does not come easily to her and she decided the stress of trying to learn to use it was too much.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  92. Yeah, the tech angle doesn’t work for mine either. We got her a smartphone a few years back, won’t try that again.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  93. 28. We are in uncharted waters… a “recession” doesn’t quite describe this.

    Our Captain hired a supply-side-club-for-growth-TeeVee-navigator who follows the Laffer curve through choppy seas and was banished from Wall Street to cable-business-news because of his $100,000/month cocaine habit.

    What could go wrong?

    S&Ls, banks, Wall St. firms, automakers, airlines, DoD contractors, tourist cruise lines, etc., The catalysts vary, but the swift, cascading disasters are going to happen repeatedly every decade or so and honest people know exactly how to describe this: some learn the hard way, others never learn at all: deregulation then, bailouts now; Reaganomics.

    ‘Ronald Reagan rarely catches any blame these days for the present economic mess that is destabilizing markets in the United States and around the world. In fact, Americans often praise the former president for taking the country in bold new directions during his years in the White House. Politicians contribute to this love-fest by naming schools and roads after the iconic president.

    These admirers rarely acknowledge how central Reagan’s ideas are to the market difficulties troubling us today. As the country’s greatest modern champion of deregulation, perhaps Ronald Reagan contributed more to today’s unstable business climate than any other American. His long-standing campaign against the role of government in American life, a crusade he often stretched to extremes, produced conditions that ultimately proved bad for business… Economist Milton Friedman served as [Reaganomics] principal philosopher and Newt Gingrich was a leading advocate in Congress.’ -source, https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/53527

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  94. “ This is so sad. My mom is 90, and has been on complete lockdown. No one in and no one out of her facility. Meals are delivered to their doors, and any items family members want to bring, are dropped off outside the office and a nurse delivers them.”

    After five years of caring for a father who had dementia issues in the last couple years, I can only imagine how many old folks out there are completely lost right now since their daily routines were thrown out the window. Home care and assisted living seniors LIVE by their daily routines and can be shattered by even minimal disruptions. And this is only one sector of people whose lives have been turned upside down.
    __ _

    The other day I went off on an author who tweeted out some self-serving garbage about ‘Hey everybody, we’re all going to be fine. We just need to lay low, not go out and just toughen up and deal with the boredom. Oh by the way please read one or two of my books while you’re trapped at home and let me know what you think.’

    The comments were all about how awesome his books were and I tore into him about hey buddy not everyone is sitting at home sipping claret and doing book reviews. How about the folks who are risking infection every day to treat patients or even just continue food production or deliver mail. And oh yeah there are a lot of people wondering how they’ll make rent in about a week’.

    There are a lot of very sad stories out there we’ll never hear about but to tune out the ones in front of your face is remarkable.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  95. I hope this is the LAST time you publish that crap, DCSCA. The poor idiot history boob who wrote it should just STFU.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  96. Senate aid package quietly sets aside $17 billion for Boeing

    Lawmakers have inserted in the Senate’s $2 trillion stimulus package a little-noticed provision aimed at providing billions of dollars in emergency assistance to Boeing.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/25/boeing-bailout-coronavirus

    Why?

    A DoD contractor that got that Trump tax break and did stock buy back with it.

    Bbbbbbbut Kennedy Center?!: conservative whine, bitter dregs.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  97. @96. Ignorance is bliss. Kiss his Easter eggs and stay happy, Raggy Ann.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  98. Deesy-eska’s philosophy is that if you repeat banal platitudes enough times, they somehow become profound.

    Dave (1bb933)

  99. If is send you $5.00, will you promise to pay the wino down the street for some new material?

    I reckon this is the fifth or sixth time you’ve publish that same idiot crap…that you OR its author can’t comprehend.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  100. @95. Literally dealing w/that now; locked down w/a worsening dementia case. Caution dictates avoiding any exposure w/a hospital/doctor trip to Bug Central only if it is an extreme emergency. Lousy, lousy, lousy timing. Stocked up on necessities: OTC meds– and disposable diapers.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  101. @100. Send it to Boeing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  102. @100. same idiot crap– aka Reaganomics.

    Your Laffer’s on a downward curve.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  103. Here’s an interesting chart of the confirmed deaths vs. confirmed cases (~mortality rate) by country.

    If you click the little “Play” button in the lower-left corner, it shows the development over time.

    Due to the log scale on both axes, the most statistically significant information is in the upper right-hand corner.

    Dave (1bb933)

  104. I doubt Boeing’s going to relieve us of your hackneyed BS. Better ask the wino for help.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  105. @99. Truth hurts; feel the “bern.” 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  106. @105. Boeing is relieving itself on all of us– and laughing all the way to the bank, Raggy.

    “There’s another old saying, Senator: Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining.” – Fletcher [John Vernon] ‘The Outlaw Josey Wales’ 1976

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  107. I doubt Boeing’s going to relieve us of your hackneyed BS. Better ask the wino for help.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/26/2020 @ 12:58 pm

    They might.

    If is send you $5.00, will you promise to pay the wino down the street for some new material?

    I reckon this is the fifth or sixth time you’ve publish that same idiot crap…that you OR its author can’t comprehend.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/26/2020 @ 12:51 pm

    Compensation for offering better commentary! This is an innovative idea.

    That is pure, rather stupid, trolling.

    I made a plain statement of fact. I guess facts are intolerable to you, because you sure got defensive!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/26/2020 @ 8:46 am

    Well, those are opinions.

    I hope this is the LAST time you publish that crap, DCSCA. The poor idiot history boob who wrote it should just STFU.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/26/2020 @ 12:37 pm

    I’m not certain your characterization of DCSCA’s comment is entirely accurate.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  108. And here’s the graph of daily new confirmed cases. After a downtick yesterday, the US comes roaring back almost 14K new cases in the last 24-hour period shown.

    The logarithmic view shown is best for analyzing trends in the rate of new cases, but to see the unadulterated exponential growth in all its horror, click the label in the upper-left corner that says “LOG” to switch to a linear view.

    Dave (1bb933)

  109. Is this the Paul Cottrell you are talking about?

    http://the-studio-reykjavik.com/about

    Paul Cottrell is a researcher in chaos theory and has interests in modeling financial markets. Some have considered him a polymath of sorts. Born in Detroit, Michigan he has extensive professional experience in engineering and design. After retiring from automotive engineering he pursued interests in corporate finance involving the publishing, retail, and non-profit industries. He currently is a proprietary trader specializing in currency and energy markets.

    In addition to modeling financial markets, his research interests are in developmental economics, behavioral finance, complexity science, energy industry, risk management, and the uses of artificial intelligence in trading financial markets. He has been awarded a Ph.D. specializing in finance from Walden University. He has also earned a M.B.A. and B.S. from Wayne State University. Engineering certificates from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.) have also been awarded to him. Dr. Cottrell is currently at Harvard University as an ALM candidate specializing in Biology and has completed the Pre-Medical program at Fordham University. He lives in New York, NY.

    In other words, most of us have as much medical knowledge as he does. If you want to give us an expert, can you at least make sure he’s an expert in something relevant like medicine or biochemistry?

    As for Dr Zelenko…as I said before, Kiryas Joel and Satu Mare are not the places I would go for cutting edge medicine.

    Kishnevi (15a549)

  110. DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/26/2020 @ 12:47 pm

    For my part, I criticized everything not related to responding to covid. However, Boeing does employ a lot more people than the Kennedy Center, so does the Trump org. The irony of people not having trouble with money going someplace like the Kennedy Center, having trouble with a large employer like Boeing, and then complaining that it’s conservative whiners isn’t lost on me. Let’s ignore which things have larger impacts on the economy because we’re too busy cutting our nose off to spite Trump or Nikki Haley.

    frosty (f27e97)

  111. I’ll start calling you Dopey until you can start calling me with some respect. Deal?

    And can we agree that the above redundant publication of your idiot history professor’s crap is the last?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  112. In other words, most of us have as much medical knowledge as he does.

    No, most of you do not have as much medical knowledge as Paul Cottrell, PhD and future medical student. Not even close.

    If you want to give us an expert

    Please don’t straw man me: I wanted to give you a solid argument based on data you’re unaware of, not an appeal to authority.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  113. To those with elderly relatives now living in isolation…I keep seeing clips on TV of kids/grandkids “visiting” via outside windows (older person safe inside, visitor outside on the lawn or sidewalk) with a little pre arrangement.

    Kishnevi (15a549)

  114. As for Dr Zelenko…as I said before, Kiryas Joel and Satu Mare are not the places I would go for cutting edge medicine.

    How about Kansas?

    These Drugs Are Helping Our Coronavirus Patients
    The evidence is preliminary on repurposing two treatments. But we don’t have the luxury of time.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/these-drugs-are-helping-our-coronavirus-patients-11584899438

    Not to mention the French study, and a few in vitro studies.

    (For the record, the evidence thus far is thin, but it is more than a joke. Certainly worth further investigation, and perhaps something to try for desperate cases.)

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  115. I’ll start calling you Dopey until you can start calling me with some respect. Deal?

    And can we agree that the above redundant publication of your idiot history professor’s crap is the last?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/26/2020 @ 1:09 pm

    Dopey was an excellent dwarf, even a hero.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  116. @111. Nikki bailed out of Boeing’s BoD a week ago, frosty.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  117. 108. Trolling. I won’t rise to the bait.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  118. Out of curiosity, why are you talking to me about that and not, say, Colonel Klink?

    Because you are the one who has been so certain you know what drugs should be given to deal with coronavirus, and when to give them. That is why I said “For example” and told you about the China study on hydroxychloromine … which you immediately discredited! I could also raise your criticism of Dr Fauci, who you think Trump should fire. I daresay most Americans who have watched them would prefer to have President Fauci right now.

    DRJ (15874d)

  119. @109

    The problem with that analysis is that it does not account for the fact that testing itself increases the numbers. That someone tests positive today does not mean he did not have it two days ago or a week ago.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  120. Because you are the one who has been so certain you know what drugs should be given to deal with coronavirus, and when to give them.

    It’s an estimate, a strong hypothesis with promising preliminary data and, above all, a strong margin for safety.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  121. His medical knowledge is a pre med program at Fordham from which he didn’t even get a degree. As I said, he knows as much as anyone here. And probably less than Gryph.

    If the “expert” is a rubbishy expert, then most likely his “data” is rubbishy.

    And a doctor from Satu Mare is not much better.

    Kishnevi (15a549)

  122. “Well, those are opinions.”

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  123. Fortunately, Kishnevi, time will tell. Remember this conversation and your current position and remember mine.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  124. and, above all, a strong margin for safety.

    It has risks you ignore, including cardiac and liver damage.

    DRJ (15874d)

  125. Remember this conversation and your current position and remember mine.

    My gawd…!!! Who could forget! You, Dopey, and Moana have repeated junk ad nausem here for days!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  126. Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 3/26/2020 @ 1:12 pm

    Is there a version of that that is not secured behind a paywall?

    (For the record, the evidence thus far is thin, but it is more than a joke. Certainly worth further investigation, and perhaps something to try for desperate cases.)

    MAOA seems to think we should use as a standard procedure.

    Kishnevi (15a549)

  127. DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/26/2020 @ 1:13 pm

    Ah, well then you win that argument. That’s totally a hypocritical conservative talking point. We are talking about economic relief here after all. It certainly makes no sense that Boeing, with roughly 159k employees, would get money and makes perfect sense for the Kennedy Center.

    frosty (f27e97)

  128. Remember this conversation and your current position and remember mine.

    I am not mistaking a pseudo expert for a source, nor mistaking a GP’s fan letter to Trump for supporting evidence.

    My opinion of Dr Zelenko is influenced by what I know of his major base of clientele. Are you familiar with Satmar, MAOA?

    Kishnevi (15a549)

  129. The trials for chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, azythromycin, Remdesevir, and others are ongoing. We all hope they find drugs that work. My point is that you should not get tunnel vision about one or two drugs, and you can’t know they work with certainty. It is too early to know that.

    DRJ (15874d)

  130. @127

    About the paywall, I don’t subscribe but somehow I got in.

    Here is the article:

    A flash of potential good news from the front lines of the coronavirus pandemic: A treatment is showing promise. Doctors in France, South Korea and the U.S. are using an antimalarial drug known as hydroxychloroquine with success. We are physicians treating patients with Covid-19, and the therapy appears to be making a difference. It isn’t a silver bullet, but if deployed quickly and strategically the drug could potentially help bend the pandemic’s “hockey stick” curve.

    Hydroxychloroquine is a common generic drug used to treat lupus, arthritis and malaria. The medication, whose brand name is Plaquenil, is relatively safe, with the main side effect being stomach irritation, though it can cause echocardiogram and vision changes. In 2005, a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study showed that chloroquine, an analogue, could block a virus from penetrating a cell if administered before exposure. If tissue had already been infected, the drug inhibited the virus.

    On March 9 a team of researchers in China published results showing hydroxychloroquine was effective against the 2019 coronavirus in a test tube. The authors suggested a five-day, 12-pill treatment for Covid-19: two 200-milligram tablets twice a day on the first day followed by one tablet twice a day for four more days.

    A more recent French study used the drug in combination with azithromycin. Most Americans know azithromycin as the brand name Zithromax Z-Pak, prescribed for upper respiratory infections. The Z-Pak alone doesn’t appear to help fight Covid-19, and the findings of combination treatment are preliminary.

    But researchers in France treated a small number of patients with both hydroxychloroquine and a Z-Pak, and 100% of them were cured by day six of treatment. Compare that with 57.1% of patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone, and 12.5% of patients who received neither.

    What’s more, most patients cleared the virus in three to six days rather than the 20 days observed in China. That reduces the time a patient can spread the virus to others. One lesson that should inform the U.S. approach: Use this treatment cocktail early, and don’t wait until a patient is on a ventilator in the intensive-care unit.

    A couple of careful studies of hydroxychloroquine are in progress, but the results may take weeks or longer. Infectious-disease experts are already using hydroxychloroquine clinically with some success. With our colleague Dr. Joe Brewer in Kansas City, Mo., we are using hydroxychloroquine in two ways: to treat patients and as prophylaxis to protect health-care workers from infection.

    We had been using the protocol outlined in the research from China, but we’ve switched to the combination prescribed in the French study. Our patients appear to be showing fewer symptoms.

    Our experience suggests that hydroxychloroquine, with or without a Z-Pak, should be a first-line treatment. Unfortunately, there is already a shortage of hydroxychloroquine. The federal government should immediately contract with generic manufacturers to ramp up production. Any stockpiles should be released.

    As a matter of clinical practice, hydroxychloroquine should be given early to patients who test positive, and perhaps if Covid-19 is presumed—in the case of ill household contacts, for instance. It may be especially useful to treat mild cases and young patients, which would significantly decrease viral transmission and, as they say, “flatten the curve.”

    Emergency rooms run the risk of one patient exposing a dozen nurses and doctors. Instead of exposed health workers getting placed on 14-day quarantine, they could receive hydroxychloroquine for five days, then test for the virus. That would allow health-care workers to return to work sooner if they test negative.

    President Trump touted hydroxychloroquine in his Thursday press conference as a potential treatment, which is a welcome move. And this isn’t only about treatment. Rapid and strategic use of these drugs could help arrest the spread of the disease.

    We have decades of experience in treating infectious diseases and dealing with epidemics, and we believe in safety and efficacy. We don’t want to peddle false hope; we have seen promising drugs turn out to be duds.

    But the public expects an answer, and we don’t have the luxury of time. We have a drug with an excellent safety profile but limited clinical outcomes—and no better alternatives until long after this disaster peaks. We can use this treatment to help save lives and prevent others from becoming infected. Or we can wait several weeks and risk discovering we didn’t do everything we could to end this pandemic as quickly as possible.

    Dr. Colyer is a practicing physician and chairman of the National Advisory Commission on Rural Health. He served as governor of Kansas, 2018-19. Dr. Hinthorn is director of the Division of Infectious Disease at the University of Kansas Medical Center.

    As for MAOA, he can speak for himself, but what he thinks is besides the point.

    MY point is that people should stop thinking in such simplistic terms. We are in a situation where we lack basic knowledge which we will likely not have for some time. But we are in a crisis. The fact that something is not fully tested does not mean it is a joke. Nor does it mean that it is the magic cure, either.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  131. This seems like a good time to remind certain commenters (you know who you are) of Patterico’s rule about no personal attacks. Knock it off. If you can’t handle disagreements without restorting to personal insults, then go take a break, and come back when you can behave politely and respectfully to other commenters. Even the ones that irk you. To other commenters (you know who you are), stop trolling. You’re not helping. We’re all just trying to learn more, and peacefully endure during an uncertain time.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  132. It has risks you ignore, including cardiac and liver damage.

    No, this is false. I even referred, over and over again, to the fact that we have long term data for these drugs, as in long term use, and a protocol for treating COVID-19 runs from five to ten days, so much shorter; in other words, that if it’s relatively safe for longer term usage, it should be even safer for much short term usage.

    I referred to the “safety/risk profile” [emphasis in original] on this page in the comment replying to you, which you read. I’m not getting into the weeds of every known risk. People should be prescribed these drugs, where they’re prescribed, by their doctor, who is in a position to analyze these risks relevant to the specific patient.

    Did I ever say that doctors should give this specific drug to patients when it’s contraindicated? People can be allergic to various antibiotics, such as c? Do I need to mention that every time?

    You’re not charitably interpreting my words at all if you say, as you do, that I’m implying these drugs are 100% risk-free for everybody. Which drugs are?

    Did I advocate the pharmaceutical companies burn the package inserts for every box of hydroxychloroquine, with all the side effects and contraindications and risks? Do you recall me saying that?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  133. *People can be allergic to various antibiotics, such as azithromycin

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  134. Thank you BL.

    Kishnevi (15a549)

  135. (you know who you are)

    Usually when someones says this, the people to whom it applies think it is not directed to them, and the people to whom it does not apply think it does.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  136. Bored Lawyer,

    You’re probably right. But FFS, we’re talking about adults who just need to stop nursing their big egos and play nice. Otherwise they should take their ball and go home. I don’t have the time to babysit a thread, so let’s see if they can overcome themselves and simply be polite.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  137. O/T but the DOJ has indicted Maduro fir drug crimes, issued 15 million reward.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  138. No, this is false.

    This is why I ask you to be more open-minded. My link about the China study says that some patients had signs of liver damage, and doctors have raised concerns about cardiac problems from combining chloroquine and zpak.

    DRJ (15874d)

  139. You pay your money, you take your chances. No one is suggesting shoving these drugs down resistant patients’ throats.

    James Todaro, MD
    @JamesTodaroMD
    BREAKING UPDATE on hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin treatment in South France

    COVID-19 positive patients at Méditerranée Infection University Hospital = 1416
    Deaths = 11

    Patients treated with HCQ + AZ = 503
    Deaths = 1

    […]

    4:34 PM · Mar 26, 2020

    One suspects that, if anything, sicker patients were more likely to be treated aggressively.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  140. Also, I’ll point out that blinding is a lot more important for a subjective end point like mood than it is for an objective end point like death.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  141. You seem very cavalier about the poor folks who happen to have problems with your chosen drugs, or with the man who died trying to self-medicate because he and his wife heard Trump talk about it.

    It reminds me of vaccines. Vaccines protect us all but there are some people who can be seriously hurt by vaccines and shouldn’t get them. The same may be true of the coronavuirus drugs. Maybe we can’t afford to care about the exceptions during this pandemic, but one size does not fit all in medicine.

    DRJ (15874d)

  142. You seem very cavalier about the poor folks who happen to have problems with your chosen drugs

    “You pay your money, you take your chances,” is an idiom, for goodness sakes. I’ve consistently advocated using the Defense Production Act to direct industry to mass-produce anti-viral drug therapies so they’re in the pipeline for when doctors want to use them because the entire world will want to too including because our production capacity is limited since we’re used to relying on China [and India] for drug and drug-ingredient production.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  143. DRJ,

    a guy took fish tank cleaner. That’s not self-medication. That’s extreme stupidity.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  144. I hope this drug is a huge success, and if that means Trump’s polls go to 150% approval so be it.

    But there are some real concerns if we get ahead of ourselves. A lot of people will take this drug before they get infected, if they can get their hands on it. That one goofy doctor in NYC claims he’s treated hundreds of people with it with a 100% cure rate. India is refusing to export it. It’s like Johnny Carson joking about a toilet paper shortage in 1973, and accidentally creating a real shortage.

    If our experts really did learn that there is a great treatment, they would need to figure that out in a neutral study, and then they would need to protect the supply from hoarders and profiteers.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  145. DRJ,

    Yesterday March 25th, Fox News published “Tucker: Why are media pundits trying to discredit hydroxychloroquine?” on their YouTube channel. It includes an excellent summary of much of my position, including a realistic assessment of the cost of HCQ/CQ (not that much). It’s a great video and with such clear thinking that I hope Tucker runs for the Presidency sometime this decade.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  146. a guy took fish tank cleaner. That’s not self-medication. That’s extreme stupidity.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 3/26/2020 @ 2:20 pm

    It’s a pretty realistic scenario when Trump is so vague in talking about the medication. A lot of people saw that coming. After all, one of the most famous ways to get medication without a prescription is to go to a feed store or a pet store.

    I guess it was stupid, but serious illness can impact decision making, especially if you’re desperate to protect your wife. The president has to communicate clearly and soberly, without worrying so much about the polls in the next week. I wish Trump saw that. This need to make this an attack from China that he’s fixing with his brilliant medical knowledge is the kind of approach Saddam Hussein would take to PR because he needs to control his people immediately. Trump can stay cool and defer to his experts, which would inspire more confidence and calm, and also communicate what people actually need to know (instead of promising cures area already found when they aren’t!). Sure, Trump wouldn’t get the instant credit, but by November I really think he would be sitting in a better position.

    It’s been three years of fiascos and excuses because Trump didn’t see what Bush did. If the press tells everyone you’re incompetent, it’s really easy to beat expectations.

    I hope everyone is doing well and I appreciate Dana’s admonition that we all need to stop needling eachother. I will definitely try a lot harder to stop my own cynical analysis of Trump support and hope everybody meets eachother halfway here.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  147. It’s a pretty realistic scenario when Trump is so vague in talking about the medication.

    When Trump said, “At least it’s not going to kill anybody,” or words to that effect, he was wrong to say that. Tucker wouldn’t have, for what it’s worth.

    That said, even with doctors prescribing it, of course it will sometimes have negative consequences. Conversely, some people if they can’t get it from a doctor (such as in Nevada or New York where the governors have banned most off-label use of it [in part to address supply issues, as Tucker mentions in the above video)], will probably save their own lives by intelligently using it according to a prudent protocol.

    However, yes, consuming a random amount of a fish tank cleaner with other chemicals in it too is insane and not Trump’s fault: it would be a stronger argument that Trump’s fault if and when someone kills themselves by swallowing the pills according to a bona fide protocol. Trump was CLEARLY referring to someone taking the DRUG, not fish tank cleaner, and by implication at a doctor’s direction in the appropriate amount.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  148. a guy took fish tank cleaner. That’s not self-medication. That’s extreme stupidity.

    The media’s disappointment that there weren’t more incidents of this bonehead move could be cut with a Rapala Fish’n Fillet Knife.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  149. @128. Economic relief?? For Boeing?? WTF. There is no argument. Boeing got their tax breaks from Trump and did stock buy backs, cut corners on 737Max particulars that got people killed; then gave a generous severence package to ousted CEO Muilenburg; have plenty of collateral for low interest loans w/t likes of existing facilities, munitions, civilian and military aircraft; are a DoD contractor and can make use of the generous Chapter 11 caveats if they need to reorganize. Economic relief??? Deregulate then; bail outs now: Reaganomics.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  150. Because there are scammers out there, including some right here at home:

    Then Rigano appeared on Tucker Carlson Tonight on Thursday 18. He was presented as a ‘Stanford University Medical School adviser.’

    In his interview with Carlson, Rigano praised Trump for cutting ‘red tape at the FDA.’

    Rigano said: ‘I’m here to report that as of this morning a well-controled peer reviewed study carried out by the most eminent infectious diseases specialist in the world,’ he said, claiming it ‘showed a 100 percent cure rate against coronavirus.’

    Carlson said: ‘It’s very unusual for any study of anything to produce results of 100 percent, that’s remarkable or am I missing something?’

    In response Rigano compared the effect of chloroquine to a breakthrough which allows Hepatitis C to be ‘cured’ by anti-virals.

    ‘To be able to cure a virus was said to be mathematically impossible and the first company that did was a small biotech…in the cure to hepatitis C,’ Rigano said.

    ‘What we’re here to announce is the second cure to a virus of all time.’

    Amazing, right?

    Not. Rigano is a “FAKE Stanford University ‘researcher’ who is actually a cryptocurrency-hustling Long Island lawyer whose bogus science paper was removed by Google.” And Tucker fell for him.

    DRJ (15874d)

  151. They learned a lesson the hard way. Don’t listen to Trump.

    DRJ (15874d)

  152. “ Rigano is actually a “FAKE Stanford University ‘researcher’ who is actually a cryptocurrency-hustling Long Island lawyer whose bogus science paper was removed by Google.”

    And William Shakespeare smiled…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  153. When I was in law school, there was a products liability case that said, you don’t have a duty to warn someone not to do something stupid with your product. The example given was using a hedge clipper to trim your nails.

    The couple who took fish tank cleaner acted stupidly, and the media’s attempt to lay that at Trump’s door are beclowning themselves. This is why many do not take their attacks on Trump seriously, because they assert things that are immensely foolish, and many people see through that.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  154. One of the few memorable lines from Henry the VI, and the most ambiguous.

    DRJ (15874d)

  155. It’s a shame this happened but the names of the products are the same. This may have been unforeseeable for a manufacturer but not for a President touting its benefits.

    DRJ (15874d)

  156. And as written, it had a sense of urgency.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  157. LOL

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  158. They learned a lesson the hard way. Don’t listen to Trump.

    This is so unfair. No one said drink fish tank cleaner.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  159. Patterico’s opening salvo:

    We need to get Americans back to work and infecting each other. Once we are overrunning hospitals and killing Americans by the hundreds of thousands, the economy will improve.

    Do you have that same attitude about the common flu season each year, during which Americans “kill Americans” by tens of thousands? Do you recommend that the economy be shut down, and hundreds of thousands of families lose their material security, in order to “prevent” those “killings”?

    And the difference between your “hundreds of thousands” dead from coronavirus and my “tens of thousands” dead from the common flu, of course, is that my number is a real, verifiable statistic calculated annually for decades, whereas yours is pure speculation based on fear of the unknown and, if I may say so, a certain susceptibility to media saturation bombing.

    Most young healthy people will not get sick from this virus, or will get only a normal “flu-like” illness. During that process, they will develop antibodies to fight it off better next time around, as with normal flu viruses.

    Honest question: Have you ever personally known an older, more vulnerable person (I mean ever in your life ) who, if informed that, in order to protect him or her from a virus that is more dangerous for the elderly, the entire society (including his or her own family, grandchildren, etc.) was going to have to impoverish itself, stop creating wealth, destroy its savings for a generation, and become increasingly dependent on paternalistic government to keep it alive — I ask you, have you ever known an old person who, if faced with that prospect, would say, “Yes, I want you all to be poor, unemployed, and to lose all your savings in order to protect me from getting this virus”?

    Seriously. Have you ever met an old person like that? Because that is the kindest rendering I can find of the reasoning behind this “shut it all down” approach to combatting this virus outbreak.

    I have never met an old person like that — quite the contrary in fact. And I hope and pray to every god available that when I myself am old, and in that vulnerable group, I have the courage and dignity to respond to that scenario like all the old people I have known, namely, “Don’t be a fool! Of course I don’t expect anyone to give up their own lives to protect me from anything. I’ll be fine, and if the Lord has decided I’ve been around long enough, and it’s my time to cave in, then that’s life.”

    How would you reply to that scenario, if you were the old person for whose sake (supposedly) the entire civilized world was offering to reduce itself to ashes?

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  160. There are user misconduct defenses to products liability cases but one of the reasons we have so many crazy warning labels on products is because people do stupid things all the time. Sometimes manufacturers are expected to foresee those uses and warn against or protect users. I bet fish tank chemical companies will add a “Do not ingest this product” warning now if it isn’t already there.

    DRJ (15874d)

  161. Trump touted the benefits of this product more than once. They heard him. They had some in their home. The wife said they did it because of what Trump said.

    I don’t think Trump should be solely legally responsible for this but he contributed to it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  162. They learned a lesson the hard way. Don’t listen to Trump.

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/26/2020 @ 2:45 pm

    Exactly. By focusing on the error of using a similarly named lower grade fish tank version, we’re forgetting that Trump actually has no idea what he’s talking about. Even if you work in the medicine factory and have a bucket of the good stuff, don’t take it because Trump told you it’s a cure. If it turns out to be a cure, it will just be a coincidence. There will be dosages and comedicataions and warnings that you need to look out for.

    Trump’s sole interest in this drug is to manage PR. He’s been hitting his two points over and over. This is China (rally around Trump) and Trump knows how to cure it (rally around Trump).

    I am glad Biden is laying low and not shamelessly using this crisis to bash Trump with, because it would be so easy to do. Of course the likely reason for this is that Biden can’t do much of anything right now, but I’m still glad it’s not happening. The need to spin mistakes, like Trump starting rumors about medicine that’s being hoarded now, is the wrong motivation. We’re not even in the hard part of this crisis, and the more scared people get, from government spin and deception, the worse. If Russia chooses to press its geopolitical advantage right now, things will really get out of hand.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  163. @156

    It’s a shame this happened but the names of the products are the same. This may have been unforeseeable for a manufacturer but not for a President touting its benefits.

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/26/2020 @ 2:57 pm

    I can’t wrap my head around this.

    The President isn’t a medical professional. People know he’s not a medical professional.

    Had Trump mentioned Warfarin (Coumadin) is great in reducing heart disease (#1 killer in US) because of its blood thinning properties, and we experienced shortages. Would you blame Trump if someone foolishly took rat poison in attempt to self-administer the same therapeutic treatment?

    Maybe it’s how we expect our Presidents to be that is causing these dichotomy of viewpoints.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  164. Darren:

    Most young healthy people will not get sick from this virus, or will get only a normal “flu-like” illness

    Maybe, but in my town the confirmed serious cases are 50% elderly and 50% under 25. This is why anecdotal isn’t compelling but there is a lot we don’t know.

    DRJ (15874d)

  165. Not. Rigano is a “FAKE Stanford University ‘researcher’ who is actually a cryptocurrency-hustling Long Island lawyer whose bogus science paper was removed by Google.” And Tucker fell for him.

    And who, pray tell, was all over a blog called patterico.com promoting the fake researcher and his fake research within minutes of it being on fake news? Who has been promoting, nay, preaching, this cocktail for more than a week? Who can’t find a single reputable source, but keeps promoting it for some reason. Dr. Vladimir Zelenko!!?!

    Why is he not promoting one of the actual promising anti-virals? It’s vulgar.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  166. The President isn’t a medical professional. People know he’s not a medical professional.

    He stands at the podium daily with medical professionals surrounding him and he is telling us what to do in a medical pandemic, and you blame the public for listening to him?

    DRJ (15874d)

  167. I don’t think MAOA promoted Rigano and there are reputable doctors and scientists who believe in chloroquine/zpak, but we need to keep open minds until we know more.

    DRJ (15874d)

  168. MAOA was promoting Tucker, who did fall for Rigano.

    DRJ (15874d)

  169. @167

    The President isn’t a medical professional. People know he’s not a medical professional.

    He stands at the podium daily with medical professionals surrounding him and he is telling us what to do in a medical pandemic, and you blame the public for listening to him?

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/26/2020 @ 3:15 pm

    Did I miss that he instructed folks to take the medicine themselves? I know you and other posted transcripts but, I still didn’t see any directives to take these meds unsupervised. If I did miss it, I will recant this.

    I watched many of those daily meetings, and all I could remember is him touting that these medications are promising. As in, he was conveying hopeful message that effect treatments are being investigated and has shown promising results.

    So, yes, I blame the couple for taking fish tank cleaners without checking with their medical professionals.

    This, and the media dogpiling on Trump, is literally how you get more Trump.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  170. Am I in moderation? :-/

    [No. I don’t see anything either.]

    Gryph (08c844)

  171. @165, DRJ:

    Maybe, but in my town the confirmed serious cases are 50% elderly and 50% under 25. This is why anecdotal isn’t compelling but there is a lot we don’t know.

    Well, those numbers from your town certainly don’t match any numbers from anywhere else, or at least anywhere that has enough cases to form a serious demographic breakdown.

    I’m in South Korea, where we have a whole lot of cases on a very small peninsula, and where testing has been pretty rigorous, to put it mildly. The numbers here, which are much more than mere anecdotal evidence, support my claim — which seems to be the claim of everyone looking at this case without media-colored glasses — that this virus is mostly dangerous to the elderly or those with underlying health conditions, much like the common flu.

    I’m not saying the numbers you cited from your town are incorrect. But I’m saying there is a massive amount of evidence to suggest that when more testing has been done, or more perspective gained, your town’s final estimates will come into line with the norms of those communities where there have been enough cases and enough tests to get a more meaningful picture.

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  172. We’ve had this exact discussion before, whembly:

    Trump did not say “Take this drug” but he came close and I am not surprised some people took it that way:
    Trump said Thursday that chloroquine and its less-toxic cousin hydroxychloroquine had shown “tremendous promise” to treat the new illness.

    The president doubled down on Saturday, telling his Twitter followers that hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin “taken together” could be “one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine.” He urged they “be put in use IMMEDIATELY.”

    Trump was still touting the drugs today.

    At this point, should we agree to disagree?

    DRJ (15874d)

  173. I completely agree that South Korea’s extensive testing makes it the gold standard. I think it is reasonable to believe that what you say will be proven. I don’t think it is proven yet.

    DRJ (15874d)

  174. And there it is….Dr. Birx just admitted at the WH presser they do not understand why their earlier modeling is failing. Let me be clear – I do not ascribe anything but the best motives for everything she has said or done, the same for a large number of those who have contributed to the tragic farce being played out.

    We’ve been sold a bill of “scientific” goods and destroyed our way of life in service to theory and supposition.

    It’s the models, stupid. Polar bears of the world, unite!

    Ed from SFV (950df5)

  175. Why would we listen to him about anything about this, it is impossible to be more wrong than him. It doesn’t matter though, idiots believe him when he spouts off. His drug recommendations are as idiotic as anything else he’s said, but people believe him, even though it’s plainly obvious that reality conflicts with his words.

    Jan. 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.”

    Jan. 30: “We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five — and those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for us … that I can assure you.”

    Feb. 10: “Now, the virus that we’re talking about having to do — you know, a lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat — as the heat comes in. Typically, that will go away in April. We’re in great shape though. We have 12 cases — 11 cases, and many of them are in good shape now.”

    Feb. 26: “So we’re at the low level. As they get better, we take them off the list, so that we’re going to be pretty soon at only five people. And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. So we’ve had very good luck.”

    Feb. 26: “And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”

    March 4: “[W]e have a very small number of people in this country [infected]. We have a big country. The biggest impact we had was when we took the 40-plus people [from a cruise ship]. … We brought them back. We immediately quarantined them. But you add that to the numbers. But if you don’t add that to the numbers, we’re talking about very small numbers in the United States.”

    March 7: “No, I’m not concerned at all. No, we’ve done a great job with it.”

    March 10: “And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)


  176. I am glad Biden is laying low and not shamelessly using this crisis to bash Trump with, because it would be so easy to do. Of course the likely reason for this is that Biden can’t do much of anything right now, but I’m still glad it’s not happening.

    Might another Dr. Jill have to be brought in to stop the ascension of Dr. Jill?

    urbanleftbehind (2641dd)

  177. Whoever said the lie gets halfway around the world before the truth puts its pants on sure knew what they were talking about.
    __ _

    CBS News
    @CBSNews
    Man dies after taking drug touted as coronavirus treatment by Trump
    __ _

    Kyle Griffin
    @kylegriffin

    “A man has died and his wife is under critical care after the couple, both in their 60s, ingested chloroquine phosphate,” one of the anti-malaria drugs that President Trump has mentioned in recent days.
    __ _

    Keith Lanthier
    @kpax35
    ·
    Replying to @CBSNews
    President @realDonaldTrump NEEDS TO BE CHARGED WITH MANSLAUGHTER!
    _ _

    Ryan Fournier
    @RyanAFournier
    ·
    The man in Arizona didn’t die because he took the anti-malaria drug Chloroquine.

    He died because he took aquarium cleaner that contained Chloroquine Phosphate, which is deadly to humans.

    It wasn’t Trump’s fault.

    The media is barely reporting on this.
    __ _

    David J Harris Jr
    @DavidJHarrisJr
    ·
    This is CBS blatantly lying trying to blame Trump for someone taking aquarium cleaner!

    The photo included is not even the packaging the aquarium cleaner comes in!

    The msm is rooting for this virus because of their hatred of @realDonaldTrump
    __ _

    𝙅𝙖𝙢𝙚𝙨𝙩𝙤𝙬𝙣
    @CifJamestown
    ·
    It was not Malaria medication. It was aquarium cleaner. It was labeled fish tank cleaner and NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.
    __ _

    Jay Bowden
    @JayBowden61
    ·
    So you want to blame Trump because a man drank aquarium cleaner because it had the name “chloroquine” on the bottle. So tonight if I use Motor “oil” instead of Cooking “oil” on my Blackstone Griddle, who do I get to blame? Or do I just check the “dumb-a$$” box?
    _ _

    harkin (b64479)

  178. @177. If he lays any lower he’ll be six feet under.

    A Democratic NY governor might end up burying him while racing to the rescue- just as in 1932- and get the nom-nod by acclimation.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  179. They learned a lesson the hard way. Don’t listen to Trump.

    Our DIL asked our 5 year old granddaughter, “if your friends asked you to jump off a bridge, would you?”

    Our granddaughter responded, “Which bridge?”

    She’s told us she wants to be either a princess or a lawyer when she grows up.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  180. Biden is laying low

    Considering both his inability to finish an interview or speech from his home with trailing off to muttering because he can’t remember what he was saying and the sexual assault allegation against him by his former aid, Tara Reade, he probably should continue to do so.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  181. Tucker Carlson is a Collectivist with some right-leaning views.

    He would very willingly prevent, by force, market innovation, and has said so several times.

    I don’t wonder that the alt-right thinks he’s the bee’s patella. (h/t P.G. Wodehouse)

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  182. 165 – “ Maybe, but in my town the confirmed serious cases are 50% elderly and 50% under 25.”
    __

    Serious cases I’m pretty sure doesn’t include infection only – that’s the first I’ve heard that and that’s worrisome.
    __ _

    harkin (b64479)

  183. I don’t wonder that the alt-right thinks he’s the bee’s patella. (h/t P.G. Wodehouse)

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/26/2020 @ 4:09 pm

    He hasn’t led anything, ever, but he has gotten on board with the lucrative life of praising Trump. Most ‘conservative’ pundits who don’t have a day job have done so. If you are particularly snappy in your partisan smack talk, people will mistake that for the ability to make clear decisions that reflect all possibilities (even though this capacity is nearly the exact opposite trait).

    I am sure there are Lefties hoping Rachel Maddow is the president some day too. It’s cute, in a silly way. Americans love their celebs.

    sexual assault allegation against him by his former aid, Tara Reade,

    LOL that’s a Bernie Sanders argument. Kavanaugh/Trump supporters will have a hard time if this election is about avoiding creeps like Biden. You can tell Biden’s sexually harassing people on live TV so by all means suddenly decide this matters again. Seems like it mattered with Bill Clinton… then it didn’t matter for a long long time, and suddenly it matters again. How perplexing what could cause these flip flop flip flops.

    Biden should drop out. I hope he doesn’t because Sanders would beat Trump now that we’re all socialists apparently. Those theories about Cuomo taking over… I definitely hope that happens because even if it’s terrible for democrat unity it is better for the country.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  184. Trump touted the benefits of this product more than once. They heard him. They had some in their home. The wife said they did it because of what Trump said.

    I don’t think Trump should be solely legally responsible for this but he contributed to it.

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/26/2020 @ 3:08 pm

    No he isn’t.

    Darwin is.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  185. @182. He is also an heir to the Swanson TV dinner fortune.

    Ignorance is bliss; stay happy— and finish your Salisbury steak, tatters and peas.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  186. They used Chloroquine Phosphate which is not the same thing. Chances are it was labeled “not fit for human consumption” or something along those lines on it.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  187. “Biden should drop out. I hope he doesn’t because Sanders would beat Trump now that we’re all socialists apparently.”

    Six weeks ago I would have argued Biden had a much better chance than Bernie but not now. Not because we’re all socialists now but because Joe is deteriorating before our very eyes.

    “Those theories about Cuomo taking over…….

    Could be but I’m waiting for Hillary to elbow her way onto the ticket as VP if they prop up Simulated Joe. If he keels over they’ll consider that a feature, not a bug. And the bullet we dodged in 2016 will be back looking for revenge. Hopefully if that happens the Trump judges will run up enough roadblocks to preserve the Constitution in my lifetime.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  188. “So you want to blame Trump because a man drank aquarium cleaner because it had the name “chloroquine” on the bottle. So tonight if I use Motor “oil” instead of Cooking “oil” on my Blackstone Griddle, who do I get to blame? Or do I just check the “dumb-a$$” box?”

    Sadly hilarious…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  189. At this point, should we agree to disagree?

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/26/2020 @ 3:29 pm

    Aye. 😉

    whembly (fd57f6)

  190. neil_ferguson @neil_ferguson
    · 1h
    Replying to @neil_ferguson

    3/4 – My evidence to Parliament referred to the deaths we assess might occur in the UK in the presence of the very intensive social distancing and other public health interventions now in place.

    neil_ferguson @neil_ferguson

    4/4 – Without those controls, our assessment remains that the UK would see the scale of deaths reported in our study (namely, up to approximately 500 thousand).

    Huh. Somebody was reporting fake news…?

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  191. I’m waiting for Hillary to elbow her way

    She’s no better than Biden. Honestly that stuff is being said for humorous effect and perhaps those who absorbed a lot of Hillary theories in 2016 actually buy it. The dems need to find a way to get the bernie bros and Hillary is not a way.

    No he isn’t.

    Darwin is.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 3/26/2020 @ 4:19 pm

    Don’t tell Pence!

    And sorry but Trump is responsible for what comes out of Trump’s big stupid mouth. Including that he never takes responsibility. He should have shut up. That man would be alive if he had.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  192. Gee I wonder if the guys who think the FDA should be banned assume ‘not for human consumption’ on pet supplies is just ’cause of those evil lawyers’.

    I actually do not wonder. Google for 5 minutes and people who want meds without prescription often try to get antibiotics and other meds at pet supply stores, and disregard the warnings. ‘it’s the same stuff’. Of course it is not, but this is a pandemic and people get desperate when their president tells them there’s a cure to the hoax disease if only the fake news guys would stop sabotaging him by promoting Chinese propaganda.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  193. Coronavirus: Mexicans demand crackdown on Americans crossing the border

    O.o

    whembly (c30c83)

  194. Don’t tell Pence!

    And sorry but Trump is responsible for what comes out of Trump’s big stupid mouth. Including that he never takes responsibility. He should have shut up. That man would be alive if he had.

    Dustin (928d9a) — 3/26/2020 @ 4:47 pm

    I’m sorry Dustin, but this is pure TDS. You hate the man so much that you blame everything on him every chance you can. Someone who drinks the equivalent of drano is responsible for their own actions. The man was a moron and probably suicidal.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  195. If I was desperate enough to try pet meds, I would go to the pet meds aisle, not the one with aquarium cleaning supplies.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  196. That is so cute and smart, Haiku. I vote for both.

    DRJ (15874d)

  197. 183, it would be worrisome but I think it is an anomaly due to testing issues. Testing has been scarce here, and until last week they still required foreign travel plus symptoms. The cruise ship elderly and Spring Break/exchange student young had more foreign travel, hence they were the first identified.

    DRJ (15874d)

  198. We know we have community spread but test results are also taking more than 7 days. If testing really is the key to containment, my area is in trouble.

    DRJ (15874d)

  199. On the plus side, we are doing fair on distancing and our yards look awesome.

    DRJ (15874d)

  200. I’m sorry Dustin, but this is pure TDS. You hate the man so much that you blame everything on him every chance you can. Someone who drinks the equivalent of drano is responsible for their own actions. The man was a moron and probably suicidal.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 3/26/2020 @ 4:58 pm

    It’s not TDS though it is justified strong condemnation. It’s the same condemnation I would offer to any leader who did this. I’ve been harshly critical of politician misconduct on both sides of the aisle for over a decade on this blog and for my whole life. If this was Obama, I’d say the same damn thing. I’m actually totally unbiased. It’s reality that Trump’s the worst president in American history.

    This poor man was desperate, heard Trump explain he had special medical expertise, better than the doctors, and this was probably a cure. The man did the best he could to obtain the closest thing he could, based 100% on Trump’s recommended treatment. And he would be dead if Trump had simply kept his yapper shut about specific medical research, deferring to people who have dedicated their lives to hard work and science.

    If I was desperate enough to try pet meds, I would go to the pet meds aisle, not the one with aquarium cleaning supplies.
    _

    harkin (b64479) — 3/26/2020 @ 5:00 pm

    Actually, I am pretty sure the antibiotics people have often gone to pet stores to obtain are located on the fish aisle. Obviously all fish stuff is located together. The idea that this man thought he was taking “drano” is just trying to ensure, as always, that Trump bears no responsibility for what Trump says.

    We even see Trump supporters insulting this poor man (who was also a Trump fan). He got in the way of the narrative that Trump is handling this well so he needs to be destroyed. This is a good reason to temper your devotion to any politician. You’re expendable to Trump, to Biden, to Sanders, to all of them.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  201. Love Wodehouse, Ragspierre.

    DRJ (15874d)

  202. There are pet meds that are the same as human meds.

    DRJ (15874d)

  203. The man was a moron and probably suicidal.

    Now, THERE is some cultist stuff, rat thar…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  204. They used Chloroquine Phosphate which is not the same thing. Chances are it was labeled “not fit for human consumption” or something along those lines on it.

    I believe the couple swallowed fish cleaner containing chloroquine phosphate, which is a common form of the drug chloroquine. Obviously, swallowing some random quantity of it unwise.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  205. 203. One of the greatest man in English letters. He was amazingly prolific, and in so many media.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  206. Oh I missed the theory that this man was secretly committing suicide. I know Trump has offered that suicides are coming (he’s right about that). That’s a nice use of Trump’s talking points, but it’s obviously untrue because the man gave this to his wife, and she said they were both trying to get better.

    Folks are refusing to understand that decision making is impaired when you have low blood oxygen. This is a mistake everyone in this thread could make in these circumstances. It is really irresponsible for Trump to attempt to directly offer untrue (poll helping) hope. He needs to be calm and careful, and show us that our medical experts are the best resource for information.

    There are two ways a Trump believer could have been steered. One is that this is a panic of hoaxes and lies and chinese propaganda, every man for himself, but maybe there’s a treatment the lame stream media doesn’t want you to know about that works! The other is that we should talk to our doctor and listen to their advice, and most of us will recover. One of these puts Trump at the center of attention, antagonizes Trump’s critics, and is stupid. The other … well the other is just common sense presidential behavior.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  207. “ The idea that this man thought he was taking “drano” is just trying to ensure, as always, that Trump bears no responsibility for what Trump says.”
    __ _

    Pure delusion and completely missed the point. Who in heck knows what someone eating aquarium cleaner could be thinking?

    CBS calling it the “ drug touted as coronavirus treatment by Trump“ is almost as nutty as the actual ingesting of aquarium cleaner. They wouldn’t even show the correct packaging for what the nitwit consumed.

    One of the things most evident about people suffering from TDS is that they have no idea the affliction exists, sort of like those who think he can do no wrong.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  208. @210

    One of the things most evident about people suffering from TDS is that they have no idea the affliction exists, sort of like those who think he can do no wrong.
    _

    harkin (b64479) — 3/26/2020 @ 5:17 pm

    Ya mean the TWS’ers??
    Trump Worshiper Syndrome? 😉

    whembly (c30c83)

  209. Dustin,

    you have the facts wrong again. They weren’t sick. They were taking it as a “preventive measure.” They won a Darwin Award instead.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  210. Then, harkin, there is the happy cohort who looked at the man and determined he was unfit for the office to which he lusted. We are realists.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  211. If President Trump simply said chloroquine is useful in treating malaria and arthritis, to name too, does that make him responsible for the death of someone going to a malaria zone or who has arthritis who decides to consume a massive quantity of it from some non-pharmaceutical source without talking to their doctor?

    That argument is ridiculous and I hope it isn’t part of anyone’s plan to defeat Trump in the election, because it ain’t going to fly with the people. Most people are smarter than that.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  212. you have the facts wrong again. They weren’t sick. They were taking it as a “preventive measure.” They won a Darwin Award instead.

    NJRob (4d595c) — 3/26/2020 @ 5:24 pm

    I frankly don’t know if that’s true either way. It’s impossible to get tested thanks to Trump ignoring this disease for months (and his fans pretending that’s the fault of the impeachment).

    It’s like this smear that the man committed suicide and was drinking drano. If that’s how important Trump avoiding responsibility for the words that came out of Trump’s mouth is to you… you do you.

    I am not happy to be right, but Trump turned out to be what I warned he would be. Flailing about China and the media doesn’t change that those things existed when Trump said he could do this job. He is really screwing this up.

    Another problem is that political media is click bait driven. We’ll see Trump supporting blogs announce Trump’s triumph every day. ‘best poll ever’ and I imagine keeping the USA vs China theme going. It pushes y’all into really being nasty to this poor man who made a mistake. He never should have supported Trump. Supporting Trump killed him. Yeesh.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  213. I frankly don’t know if that’s true either way.

    Prophylaxis It would be a plausibly beneficial use of hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine anyway (it’s used that way for malaria). I wonder if it might be beneficial for healthcare workers on the front lines, for example.

    However, that’s not even the real issue here. The issue is an insane random dose.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  214. Then, harkin, there is the happy cohort who looked at the man and determined he was unfit for the office to which he lusted. We are realists.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/26/2020 @ 5:24 pm

    His own party voted in a ban from him benefiting from the relief bill. It puts all that Rezko Obama stuff in context. Trump’s own supporters expected him to loot emergency funds to protect us in a pandemic.

    It’s not bias to say that he has poor character.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  215. I’ve been meeting with my NGO’s board today (and the next few days). Among other things, we furloughed our entire staff as they can’t work anyway. The good news: some of them will get MORE money from UI, given the federal $600/week add-on. Good news for them, anyway.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  216. Actually, I am pretty sure the antibiotics people have often gone to pet stores to obtain are located on the fish aisle.

    Um, I may be wrong (and anyone here, please do correct me if I am), but to avoid the possibility of giving your audience the wrong information:

    I was under the impression that all antibiotics are by-prescription-only pharmaceuticals (and scripts for same may be written by either a medical doctor or veterinarian.)
    As I say, if you know differently, please explain where I am in error and what you know to be true.
    …because, otherwise, people might begin to look askance at other statements of yours?

    ColoComment (2429fb)

  217. Breathe in, breathe out, right, Kevin M?

    Hey, I’m the guy someone said was “hysterical.” Otherwise no comment.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  218. I just want to throw out there that if you want to read Kevin’s link without the Forbes adblocker blocker stuff, just use incognito mode. I agree it’s a great summary.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  219. This is actually a better article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/advisor/2020/03/25/what-you-need-to-know-about-expanded-unemployment-benefits-for-covid-19/#73d8097636e4

    Workers will be eligible for a $600 weekly boost on top of regular state unemployment benefits

    The stimulus bill is giving a federally funded weekly pay boost to those who are unemployed.

    In addition to regular state unemployment insurance, individuals will receive an additional $600 per week for up to four months. In total, unemployed workers will receive 39 weeks of unemployment benefits, which will carry them through to the end of 2020.

    State unemployment benefits vary from state to state but averaged $385 a week nationwide in January. Adding the $600 boost included in the stimulus package would bring an average weekly unemployment check to $985, which exceeds the median weekly earnings of $936 in the fourth quarter. (Women had median weekly earnings of $843; men took home a median of $1,022.)

    “Most will get their full salary, or very very close to it,” Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-NY, said this morning on CNN.

    The expanded unemployment insurance is designed to put money quickly and directly into laid-off people’s pockets, in the hopes that they will be able to keep paying their bills and feeding their families and to come through the pandemic relatively intact, financially.

    Gig workers, freelancers, self-employed are eligible

    In an unprecedented move, the stimulus bill expands unemployment protections to gig workers, freelancers and self-employed individuals, who typically don’t qualify for unemployment benefits.

    Seth Harris, former Deputy U.S. Secretary of Labor, describes this aspect of the stimulus package as a “gigantic change,” but notes that it could be complicated to execute.

    “It will be harder [to calculate] because these workers don’t have a W-2 or an average weekly wage,” Harris says. “These folks have income that varies dramatically from week to week or month to month.”

    It’s not clear yet how state benefits will be calculated for these workers; unemployment is traditionally calculated as a percentage of weekly earnings, up to a maximum amount.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  220. Um, I may be wrong (and anyone here, please do correct me if I am), but to avoid the possibility of giving your audience the wrong information:

    I was under the impression that all antibiotics are by-prescription-only pharmaceuticals (and scripts for same may be written by either a medical doctor or veterinarian.)
    As I say, if you know differently, please explain where I am in error and what you know to be true.
    …because, otherwise, people might begin to look askance at other statements of yours?

    ColoComment (2429fb) — 3/26/2020 @ 6:06 pm

    You are wrong.

    I’ve bought antibiotics from tractor supply in the pet aisle for decades (I bought them for animals).

    Buying amoxicillin in the fish aisle of a pet store is something people have discussed online for a long time: https://abcnews4.com/news/local/fishy-pharma-people-turning-to-store-bought-fish-antibiotics-over-prescriptions

    Dustin (928d9a)

  221. More from Forbes:

    The 7-day waiting period to receive benefits could be waived, along with other eligibility requirements

    Traditionally, most states have imposed a seven-day waiting period before newly unemployed workers could start receiving their unemployment benefits. In the new stimulus package, however, the Federal government is stepping in to provide full funding for that first week, should states elect to waive the waiting period. Presumably, with Uncle Sam paying, most of them would.

    Receiving unemployment assistance usually requires individuals to be involuntarily laid off from work, able to work, available to work and to be actively seeking work. But in a time where government officials are requiring people to shelter in place, and businesses are shutting down, these requirements make no sense.

    The new stimulus bill appears to make a big change in eligibility rules, too.

    According to an unofficial draft circulating on Wednesday, individuals who haven’t been laid off, but can’t work due to a variety of reasons related to COVID-19, would also be eligible for unemployment checks. These reasons would include a case where they were diagnosed with COVID-19, were awaiting a diagnosis, or had a family member diagnosed with the disease, according to the draft. Additionally, individuals who were scheduled to start a job and could not because their future workplaces had been shut down due to the COVID-19 pandemic, would also be eligible, the draft indicates.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  222. Dustin (928d9a) — 3/26/2020 @ 5:33 pm

    If only you did the same instead of using his death as a weapon to bludgeon Trump with because “Orange Man Bad.”

    NJRob (4d595c)

  223. 196… clown nose on, clown 🤡 nose off, Rob.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  224. Dustin (928d9a) — 3/26/2020 @ 6:11 pm

    Wow, my apologies for slighting your comment. That’s … surprising. Thanks for the information. I wonder if FDA might find the motivation in this present let’s look for [cheap] miracle cures environment to take another look at regulating sales in that market?

    From the link below:
    First, fish antibiotics are completely unregulated. Technically, they should fall under the purview of the Food and Drug Administration, which oversees both human and animal drugs. Those animals including companion animals (dogs, cats, horses) and food animals (cattle, pigs, chickens). Yet no ornamental fish antibiotics are approved by the FDA.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/here-are-reasons-you-shouldnt-take-fish-antibiotics-180964523/

    ColoComment (2429fb)

  225. If only you did the same instead of using his death as a weapon to bludgeon Trump with because “Orange Man Bad.”

    NJRob (4d595c) — 3/26/2020 @ 6:24 pm

    He literally listened to Trump and now he’s dead. Unfortunately who we select to be president is often a matter of life and death, and Trump was unfit for that responsibility. I dont understand what you mean by “orange man bad.” I’ve always been very critical of poor politicians from all sides. Trump’s always been an example and my basis for criticizing him was explained in specific and intelligent detail. You may disagree but to say it’s just because ‘orange man bad’ is simply not honest. I’d obviously say the same if Trump’s most dedicated foes, Mitt Romney, Joe Biden, whoever, had made these mistakes.

    Wow, my apologies for slighting your comment. That’s … surprising. Thanks for the information. I wonder if FDA might find the motivation in this present let’s look for [cheap] miracle cures environment to take another look at regulating sales in that market?

    No apologies needed and it’s not slighting a comment to say you don’t agree or understand it. It’s likely these articles were intended to reform the issue, but I was able to get antibiotics without any kind of prescription just a few months ago from tractor supply. It’s a real problem in our society when we consider how desperate people will be getting very soon.

    196… clown nose on, clown 🤡 nose off, Rob.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/26/2020 @ 6:31 pm

    Trump is hilariously awful, and horribly tragic. Not a good time for thin skinned partisans.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  226. We know why the Arizona couple took chloroquine based on what the wife said:

    A Phoenix-area man has died and his wife was in critical condition after the couple took chloroquine phosphate, CBS affiliate KPHO reported. The additive used to clean fish tanks that is also found in an anti-malaria medication that’s been touted by President Donald Trump as a treatment for COVID-19.

    Banner Health said Monday that the couple in their 60s got sick within half an hour of ingesting the additive. The man couldn’t be resuscitated when he arrived at a hospital, but the woman was able to throw up much of the chemical, Banner said.

    “I saw it sitting on the back shelf and thought, ‘Hey, isn’t that the stuff they’re talking about on TV?'” the woman told NBC.

    “Trump kept saying it was basically pretty much a cure,” she said, adding her advice for people would be, “Don’t take anything. Don’t believe anything. Don’t believe anything that the president says and his people … call your doctor.”

    They thought they were protecting themselves.

    DRJ (15874d)

  227. Patterico et al:

    Gryph put a lot of effort into writing many informative comments on this thread. They seem to have been entirely deleted.

    Is that because he asked me on this thread what I thought about the Oxford report, and I replied by saying I’ve stopped trying to contribute anything useful to this discussion? I only ask because I notice that my reply to him has also disappeared.

    I’m fine with that, as a matter of principle. It’s your website, and you can choose to allow or disallow any comments you wish in your domain. But I think it’s sad that it has apparently been determined that vigorous debate about the seriousness of this virus outbreak, and about the proper limits on government responses to such things, is inherently out of bounds.

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  228. The stimulus package, with the $1200 deposit is all wrong. I had a thought of simply declaring the next month non business days but someone wrote an Oped in the Wall Street Journal with this idea:

    Have every bank issue every bank account a line of credit at a low interest rate equivalent to the amount of money deposited into that bank account in January and February combined.

    Sammy Finkelman (db2a13)

  229. Mr. Jonescu,

    There are no comments by you or Gryph in moderation, spam or trash. Gryph’s last comment was yesterday at 10:11 PM on another thread when he said he was leaving for awhile. What comments do you think are missing? Could they be on another thread? If you can recall the thread and approximate time of a specific comment you think is missing, I encourage you to email Patterico and he will take it seriously. But I have been around for a long time and deleting comments has not happened here.

    DRJ (15874d)

  230. Also, please check the comments to this post. Perhaps this is the discussion you remember with Gryph?

    DRJ (15874d)

  231. @ DRJ:

    God bless you, DRJ, you’re right! My mistake, happily. I’m relieved, and about more than a couple of missing comments.

    Cheers!

    Daren Jonescu (2f5857)

  232. I am relieved, too, and Cheers!

    DRJ (15874d)

Leave a Reply

Comment moderation is enabled. Your comment may take some time to appear.


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.6357 secs.