Patterico's Pontifications

3/23/2020

“15 Days” Is Not Enough to Slow the Spread

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:50 am



I’ve been saying this for a while here: the need for social distancing is not going away any time soon. As I said ten days ago: “So many people seem to think this is something we beat back over the next couple of weeks or maybe months, and then it’s back to business as usual. That’s not how it works.” We will not have a vaccine for 12-18 months. Until then, it is dangerous to be around elderly people and people with a wide range of conditions that make them more vulnerable to the pneumonia that can result from COVID-19. I have been worried that the attitude that we can get past this in two weeks (“15 Days to Slow the Spread”), or two months, could cause frustration, and an unwillingness to continue, with social distancing.

What I should have worried about, specifically — but did not, until today — is that this attitude might be adopted by President Donald J. Trump.

There is no way Anthony Fauci is signing onto the notion that everything will be fine 15 days from the date that Trump declared “15 Days to Slow the Spread.” (The clock was set a week ago, so that gives us eight more days to slow the spread.) What we’re likely to see, then — and what Axios is reporting — is that we may be headed for a confrontation between the public health experts and the politicians:

President Trump and some of his senior officials are losing patience with the doctors’ orders.

The state of play: Amid dire predictions for jobs and the economy, the White House is beginning to send signals to business that there’s light at the end of the tunnel — that the squeeze from nationwide social distancing won’t be endless.

  • Trump tweeted at 10 minutes to midnight: “WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF. AT THE END OF THE 15 DAY PERIOD [which began a week ago, March 16], WE WILL MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHICH WAY WE WANT TO GO!”
  • Vice President Pence, who heads the White House’s Coronavirus Task Force, had signaled the change in tone earlier when he said the CDC will issue guidance today allowing people exposed to the coronavirus to return to work sooner by wearing a mask for a certain length of time.

Why it matters: Taken together, Trump’s tweet and Pence’s comment supply the strongest public signals we’ve seen that the administration is looking for ways to get people out in the world again to fire up the economy — perhaps much sooner than Dr. Fauci would like.

At that point, the issue will be re-politicized, with the Trumpy right once again declaring the coronavirus no big deal, and the left (and Big Media) playing up the very bad news that is likely to come.

One might think: but what if the horror stories many are anticipating come true before the 15 days is up? My worry? That is going to happen … and will all be dismissed as (say it with me): Fake News!

Also, as horror stories from hospitals start to pile up this week, Trump himself could start to suggest it means social distancing is not working. As opposed to the truth: it’s working, but not well enough to prevent what is happening — in part because of Trump’s “what, me worry?” attitude about the virus during a critical time when decisive action could have saved lives.

I should add, as an aside, that I too am concerned about the impact all of these shutdowns is already having on the economy. As Thomas Sowell always observed, everything is a trade-off. Here, we’re not just trading money against lives. The devastating economic impact (and in my view likely depression) caused by these measures will cause genuine pain and will likely cost lives of its own. If we had a rational policymaker in office rather than an overgrown septuagenarian toddler, I would not begrudge that person’s taking the economic impact on our country into account. But you know what? Hundreds of thousands of people dying will have an economic impact too, if that happens (and God willing, it won’t) (but I think it will). So even if all you care about is the economy, I still think the trade-offs favor social distancing for the foreseeable future. As long as it takes to prevent our hospitals from being overrun. But I don’t trust Trump to be the one to make that calcuation.

But as long as we have Dr. Fauci around, he’ll put a stop to it if he thinks we’re letting up too early, right? This leads to another horrific scenario to contemplate: what if Trump fires Fauci? After all, Trump can’t like some of the press he’s seeing from Fauci. I’m sure you saw Fauci’s reaction at the press conference where Trump called the State Department the “Deep State Department”:

That’s been played about 5,000,000 times since it happened, and you know Trump has watched the clip and seethed. Then there’s this interview Fauci gave to ScienceMag.org:

Q: You stood nearby while President Trump was in the Rose Garden shaking hands with people. You’re a doctor. You must have had a reaction like, ‘Sir, please don’t do that.’

A: Yes, I say that to the task force. I say that to the staff. We should not be doing that. Not only that—we should be physically separating a bit more on those press conferences. To his credit, the vice president [Mike Pence] is really pushing for physical separation of the task force [during meetings]. He keeps people out of the room—as soon as the room gets like more than 10 people or so, it’s, ‘Out, everybody else out, go to a different room.’ So with regard to the task force, the vice president is really a bear in making sure that we don’t crowd 30 people into the Situation Room, which is always crowded. So, he’s definitely adhering to that. The situation on stage [for the press briefings] is a bit more problematic. I keep saying, ‘Is there any way we can get a virtual press conference?’ Thus far, no. But when you’re dealing with the White House, sometimes you have to say things one, two, three, four times, and then it happens. So, I’m going to keep pushing.

Q: You’re standing there saying nobody should gather with more than 10 people and there are almost 10 people with you on the stage. And there are certainly more than 10 journalists there asking questions.

A: I know that. I’m trying my best. I cannot do the impossible.

Trump does not like this kind of criticism. If it comes to a head and Trump decides his vision of what is good for the country differs from that of Dr. Fauci, administration sharks on the “let’s go back to work” side of the argument will continually put clips and quotes like the ones above in Trump’s face, knowing that will undermine Fauci more than any policy argument possibly could. Because — say this one with me too! — Donald Trump cares more about himself than he cares about our country. It’s true today, it has always been true in the past, and it will always be true in the future, until the day he dies.

And it’s not crazy to think something that petty could cost Dr. Fauci his job. There’s precedent for it.

The hopeful part is here:

Q: How are you managing to not get fired?

A: Well, that’s pretty interesting because to his [Trump’s] credit, even though we disagree on some things, he listens. He goes his own way. He has his own style. But on substantive issues, he does listen to what I say.

I hope he continues to. I worry he will not.

P.S. Speaking of Trump caring more about himself than anything in the world, I leave you with this clip, which I assume you’ve seen already. It’s Trump sarcastically gloating about Mitt Romney being in isolation and possibly having the coronavirus, and then transparently denying that he was being sarcastic when he said “GEE. That’s too bad.” I am hoping anyone who thinks this clip was funny will come out and say so, because I will ban you instantly and never look back.

397 Responses to ““15 Days” Is Not Enough to Slow the Spread”

  1. This evening I will do a follow-up to Dana’s “Respite” post with some of my own photos from Malibu Creek State Park, which has now been shut down, as the beaches inevitably will be, because clowns can’t seem to enjoy these beautiful settings without congregating. Oh well. I had one weekend.

    I have some nice photos from Leviticus too. I’m looking forward to that post rather than depressing and dreadful ones like this one!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. The devastating economic impact (and in my view likely depression) caused by these measures will cause genuine pain and will likely cost lives of its own.

    I read this frequently, but I haven’t seen anyone lay out the mechanism by which a short to moderate term economic recession (or even depression) leads to a large number of deaths.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  3. Fire Fauci and replace him with someone better.

    I don’t mean a doctor who doesn’t advocate social distancing. I mean one who keeps relatively up to date on the most promising COVID-19 treatments and studies, which are about anti-viral drugs, and doesn’t have to have Donald Trump raise the issue, after which Fauci still wrongly believed all the evidence was anecdotal, when, on the contrary, it included direct studies of COVID-19 patients.

    We need a good physician in this post who is less about PR and covering his own arse and more about getting treatments to patients as quickly as possible. Donald Trump’s essential reasoning on chloroquine was essentially sound too: we have 70 years of data on its relative safety for long-term use and, for COVID-19, we only need short-term use.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  4. “Re-politicized”

    You say that as if it were a bad thing. There are multiple decisions to make with regard to this pandemic, from medical, social, economic and international perspectives. To look at it from just one standpoint is myopic and simplistic. And the way we deal with things of this complexity is, for shorthand, called “politics.”

    I suggest that your misgivings are more related to the imbecile at the top. But these decisions need to be made. A lot of people will be devastated FOR SURE if this goes on like this for 12-18 months. Another month, and a lot of people whose companies are carrying them now will have to be let go. Sure, some people will still have their pensions, or cash, or civil-service jobs to rely on, but most won’t. Few private-sector entities will be able to carry anyone much longer, as their own survival becomes the issue.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  5. I read this frequently, but I haven’t seen anyone lay out the mechanism by which a short to moderate term economic recession (or even depression) leads to a large number of deaths.

    I don’t know about a large number, but on the margins it can drive people into homelessness, drug addiction, inability to access medical care, and so forth. Prosperity is good for citizens’ health, and a depression is bad for health.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  6. 1. Congregating is a natural human impulse. If you really believed that the spread would be adequately slowed on the basis of “recommendations” or the government “asking” people to “voluntarily” do things that violate their nature and damage the economy…

    …well, here we are.

    Gryph (08c844)

  7. Trump is not funny. This is.

    DRJ (15874d)

  8. You say that as if it were a bad thing. There are multiple decisions to make with regard to this pandemic, from medical, social, economic and international perspectives. To look at it from just one standpoint is myopic and simplistic. And the way we deal with things of this complexity is, for shorthand, called “politics.”

    I suggest that your misgivings are more related to the imbecile at the top.

    It’s a long post, but let me re-emphasize one paragraph to make clear that your suggestion is something I explicitly said. This time I’l bold part of it.

    I should add, as an aside, that I too am concerned about the impact all of these shutdowns is already having on the economy. As Thomas Sowell always observed, everything is a trade-off. Here, we’re not just trading money against lives. The devastating economic impact (and in my view likely depression) caused by these measures will cause genuine pain and will likely cost lives of its own. If we had a rational policymaker in office rather than an overgrown septuagenarian toddler, I would not begrudge that person’s taking the economic impact on our country into account. But you know what? Hundreds of thousands of people dying will have an economic impact too, if that happens (and God willing, it won’t) (but I think it will). So even if all you care about is the economy, I still think the trade-offs favor social distancing for the foreseeable future. As long as it takes to prevent our hospitals from being overrun. But I don’t trust Trump to be the one to make that calcuation.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  9. 8. Here’s the deal: I don’t trust any politician to make that calculation. Trump may be the worst of a bad bunch, but politicians aren’t gonna fix what politicians broke. Ever.

    Gryph (08c844)

  10. As a matter of fact, many municipalities will probably have to let substantial workforce go, something they (and their workers) never though would happen. Sure, they’d promise to hire them back later, but there’s damn little sales tax money coming in. Attempts to gouge money out of the citizenry won’t go over well.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  11. 10. Price gouging of hard and soft material goods: BAD BAD BAD

    Gouging of tax money from the citizenry: Sorry, but we have to…

    Gryph (08c844)

  12. 2. And might I add, idiots taking ten times the recommended dose and poisoning themselves has nothing to do with chloroquine’s effectiveness at the dose for which it is recommended.

    Gryph (08c844)

  13. DRJ, note the bitten lower lip on Pompeo.

    The Orange Raccoon needs to STFU. He can’t, of course…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  14. The people in my town are isolating by staying at home. The ones who have to go to work are staying as distant as they can, and we keep our distance in the grocery stores and pharmacies. There are no crowds but I have noticed a lot more singles and couples walking, running, riding bikes, and being outside. But the weather is nicer so it may be that.

    DRJ (15874d)

  15. 12. 2. = *3.

    Gryph (08c844)

  16. To Patterico’s 5, I would add emphasis to the fact that even on a short basis, economic hardship lowers some people’s ability to derive adequate nutrition with quality food right away. That’s detrimental to health for any number of conditions not to mention COVID-19. Likewise having to discontinue much-needed medication in order to afford food and shelter after one’s income is cut.

    I still support social distancing at present, but people like Gryph (and most of us) have legit concerns about what the economic downturn will mean in human terms.

    Make America Ordered Again (37bc86)

  17. 16. Truth be told, I find the phrase “economic downturn” to be a weaselly way of putting things. I think “economic suicide” is a much more apt descriptor of where this could be headed if businesses are forced to close en masse.

    Gryph (08c844)

  18. And might I add, idiots taking ten times the recommended dose and poisoning themselves has nothing to do with chloroquine’s effectiveness at the dose for which it is recommended.

    Fatal dosage 2 times, not 10 times. Another instance where your lies are dangerous.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  19. Still, it’s nice to see people taking my concerns as reasonable, if perhaps a bit overblown.

    Gryph (08c844)

  20. 18. There have been people taking 10 times the recommended dosage. Don’t chalk my mistakes up to intentional lies. If people that show symptoms of CoViD-19 take chloroquine under the supervision of a doctor (and I would never dare suggest they do otherwise), I think the odds of toxicity rise to somewhere around “astronomical.”

    Gryph (08c844)

  21. Klink, it’s almost like you want to blame me for the chloroquine poisoning in Nigeria, when it started happening after one of Trump’s press conferences.

    Gryph (08c844)

  22. Make America Organized Again,

    Please read the entire article.

    DRJ (15874d)

  23. The problem with your argument in 17, Gryph, is that not slowing the spread of COVID-19 until the raw resources (e.g., sufficient quantities of anti-viral drugs) and a better understanding of how best to treat COVID-19 are widely in place could mean much MORE economic destruction.

    And when you do what you can, facing hard choices, to maximize both human survival and long-term economic wellbeing, this is the precise opposite of suicidality.

    Make America Ordered Again (37bc86)

  24. You recognize that this is a trade-off, and that the current regime will cause enormous pain and suffering (and that includes lives, not just depression from economic ruin, but the health care system will be affected in myriad ways). And yet because we have a narcissistic buffoon in the White House (I agree with that too), we have to just defer to Dr. Faucci?

    Sorry, this is a balancing act, and the good Dr. is simply assuming the worst case scenario, and is focused solely on health suffering and not other kinds of suffering. Which will be real and severe.

    Ideally, Trump would take a vacation and Pence would make the decisions. We are not there, so the best we can do is to have a rational discussion and hope that the right decision will seep up to the Oval Office.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  25. There have been people taking 10 times the recommended dosage. Don’t chalk my mistakes up to intentional lies. If people that show symptoms of CoViD-19 take chloroquine under the supervision of a doctor (and I would never dare suggest they do otherwise), I think the odds of toxicity rise to somewhere around “astronomical.

    It’s not a mistake if it’s consistent, odds are you’d hit a fact once, since you don’t, it’s intentional statements of falsehood, i.e. lie.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  26. What is annoying is that the pictures in the CNN articles overdramatize the problem.

    * Going to the beach is OK

    * Even if everyone is six feet apart, if there are a lot of people, the people in the distance will look like they are closer together than that

    * Some people congregating are families. I’d guess a lot of them are. They live together for crying out loud.

    That said, there is still clearly too much congregating of people who are not families. Maybe they do have to shut things down if people can’t control themselves. But it would be a shame.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  27. You recognize that this is a trade-off, and that the current regime will cause enormous pain and suffering (and that includes lives, not just depression from economic ruin, but the health care system will be affected in myriad ways). And yet because we have a narcissistic buffoon in the White House (I agree with that too), we have to just defer to Dr. Faucci?

    That is not what I said.

    What I said is in the post. I wrote it down in words for a reason.

    Hundreds of thousands of people dying will have an economic impact too, if that happens (and God willing, it won’t) (but I think it will). So even if all you care about is the economy, I still think the trade-offs favor social distancing for the foreseeable future. As long as it takes to prevent our hospitals from being overrun.

    That is what I said.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  28. #8

    I think the conversation has to be held, and will be held, whether Orangeman is bad or not. I await the CDC guidelines Pence talked about on whether we can go back to work or not. If we can make that the lodestar or at least the basis of conversation, maybe we get through this by the country coming together and agreeing how to go forward. This will on a locality by locality basis, rather than through national fiat. No way will people quarantine for two months.

    I wish Trump would shut up. He won’t. I wish he would relinquish his bully pulpit and self-quarantine until January 20. He won’t. I hope he doesn’t fire responsible people for dissing him. It’s not responsible to believe that. I wish he had been removed. He wasn’t. Can we ignore him? Effectively, that might be what happens.

    Civil society will do what it does. But that’s Democracy, isn’t it?

    Appalled (1a17de)

  29. 23. Hence why I said where this could be headed. Fortunately, only a tiny fraction of states have forced business closures, and those that have seem to be the usual suspects (Washington and California spring to mind).

    Only hindsight will tell once and for all if the measures we have taken thus far have risen to the “cure worse than the disease” level, but there is little doubt in my mind that forcing business to close under pain of fine and/or imprisonment will clearly damage the economy in ways that far outweigh the good it might do.

    Gryph (08c844)

  30. Patterico,

    Yes, I find I’ve had to revisit this post several times. I was reacting to the “playing politics” part before I read on. I found that paragraph between my post and yours. And I can’t say your “misgivings” are wrong. My concern with Trump is that he may will put his re-election ahead of public health, and that he is not the man I would choose to run this (or anything).

    OTOH, I don’t want this decision being made by a narrow specialist, whatever their qualifications. It’s not all about one thing or the other. What we need is a generalist politician with some real qualities making these decisions and trade-offs and we haven’t got one. Bill Clinton at the top of his game was probably the best I’ve ever seen — his handling of the Lewinsky scandal was masterful if ethically-challenged. But we got the human wrecking ball.

    I really don’t know what to say, except “go apoplexy!”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. Sorry, this is a balancing act, and the good Dr. is simply assuming the worst case scenario

    I don’t think he is. I think he’s being realistic. The worst-case scenario is much worse than anything I have heard him say.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  32. 25. Where else did I say anything about 10 times the recommended dose? And there are people out there taking 10 times the recommended dose. Hydrochloroquine is a less toxic submetabolite which should be explored in CoViD-19 treatment, and I’m pretty sure you’re devolving into troll territory here, Klink. GTFOH.

    Gryph (08c844)

  33. So Trump is saying we’ll make a decision at the end of the 15 days. And? That seems exactly what should be done. Further, we shouldn’t be wrecking the economy unless we have to. East Asia is not shutting everything down and has the virus contained.

    As for the “Science magazine” interview, its a left-wing rag and more importantly the Doctors words were “Edited for clarity and brevity”. So, can we trust it? Doubtful.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  34. 31. If I’m correct, and we’ve been hit by CoViD-19 since November or even October of last year and just didn’t know it, the worst might already be over. Not saying that it is, but the politicians are so busy worrying about worst-case-scenarios, I don’t think they’ve really dug too far for the actual truth.

    Gryph (08c844)

  35. Although perhaps Trump being concerned about his re-election will give him pause — there is something to be said for the “invisible hand” of democracy. If Trump were convinced that he would NOT be re-elected, I shudder to think the sort of eff-it decisions he might make.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  36. @27 — So your view is that the current regime, if continued for four months, let alone, 12 months, will not cause enormous suffering, including deaths and affects on health? Because if that is your position, you are dreaming, and even Dr. Fauci recognizes that is not the case.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  37. DRJ at 22, I have. There’s also the recent study on Avigan. What they found, as with other anti-virals, and is the point I’ve been making over and over again, is these therapies only work well if you treat people EARLY.

    You will find nothing in my comments that contradicts with the idea we must research more and learn which protocols work best. In fact, I’ve been saying that over and over again and is one of the reasons we must practice social distancing, to slow the spread. I’m not saying we have the precise answer for everybody.

    With chloroquine in particular, however, we have a lot of data about the safety profile. Further, people often use that drug for years or decades. With COVID-19, we need it for a much shorter period of time. I still say President Trump’s reasoning on this is correct.

    Make America Ordered Again (37bc86)

  38. Politico had an amusing story about Trump NOT consulting previous Presidents. The implication is that Trump should be talking to geniuses like Bush, Clinton, and Obama to figure out what to do, even though none of the three ever dealt successfully with a medical crisis. Given their track record on various wars and foreign policy crises, TRump’s decision makes mucho sense.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  39. 37. I’d like to add, every drug has side effects. Chloroquine and hydrochloroquine are no exceptions. And yes, I’m painfully aware that some drugs are more toxic than others. Now let’s get that hydroxychloroquine out to patients that might benefit from it!

    Gryph (08c844)

  40. I don’t know about a large number, but on the margins it can drive people into homelessness, drug addiction, inability to access medical care, and so forth. Prosperity is good for citizens’ health, and a depression is bad for health.

    This is all true. I guess I’m used to seeing people propose that the fatality rate due to the economic impact will be as bad/worse. This isn’t a point you made in your post, but I thought you might have a link back to some of the reasoning behind those assertions.

    Time123 (af99e9)

  41. 40. If businesses are forcefully closed en masse, as in nationwide, there’s no way to know just how bad the impact could get. It’s untrodden territory.

    Gryph (08c844)

  42. I see the MSM is spinning like a top trying to bury the fact that Pelosi is playing politics with the bail out bill and load it up with a Democrat wish list. And – in case this crisis comes to end – to make the Good Doctor the Hero and deny Trump any credit. Its all very transparent. Just like their attempts to present EVERY Doctor or person who worked in the CDC as a non-partisan person who’s only criticizing Trump because of SCIENCE. Which is fake.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  43. As for the malaria drugs every drug has side-effects. Every drug needs to be tested. Yes. We’ve heard that over and over. That doesn’t mean these drugs might be very helpful.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  44. Dr Fauci isn’t making all the decisions. Pence’s task force has other medical and public health resources.

    In addition, the FDA decides what drugs can be used. The FDA Commissioner has allowed chloroquine and Remdesivir, but only for compassionate use.

    DRJ (15874d)

  45. There are additional problems with a long siege other than the simple economic ones. GOVERNMENT is largely shut down, too. The courts are shut. The jails are being emptied. In some places felons will be released early. Yet criminals will still commit crimes (and more so in hard times). Will arrest become indefinite? Where does one file habeas corpus? Or litigate a tort? What happens when the jails fill up again and no one has even been arraigned?

    And this is just one aspect of government, too. Maintenance of infrastructure comes to mind.

    There’s also the possibility that the people will find they don’t NEED all that government. I guess that’s an upside.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  46. 44: I’m not saying fire the entire task force and haven’t said one word against Pence. I’m saying replace Fauci with someone better.

    Make America Ordered Again (37bc86)

  47. One thing that’s amusing about the Never Trumpers – David French and Rod Dreher comes immediately to mind – is there complete lack of skepticism about the MSM reporting on Trump. Its obvious to an objective observer that given the MSM’s 92% coverage of Trump over the last 4 years, and their constant pushing of “We’ve got him now” and “Trump is a Russian Asset” etc. that accepting every MSM report about the President is a little gullible.

    But that doesn’t stop them from thinking the WaPo and NYT are printing the the God’s honest truth.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  48. From my earlier link:

    How likely is it that the possible benefits shown in a small study will turn out to be a mirage? One way of understanding this is to look at what happens with medicines in clinical trials. Experimental drugs are usually studied in three stages of progressively larger studies. The first, called Phase 1 trials, are small studies used to get an early read on efficacy and rule out obvious safety issues. These are then refined in larger “Phase 2” studies and then in the large “Phase 3” studies used by the FDA to decide whether to approve a drug.

    The study referenced by Trump, and other studies done so far of potential treatments for Covid-19, are small and hastily designed even by the standards of Phase 1 studies. So how often do infectious-disease drugs that enter Phase 2 studies reach the market? An analysis by the Biotechnology Industry Organization says they worked out only 27.5% of the time between 2009 and 2015. That means that three-quarters of the time, medicines against infectious disease that looked promising in small studies either were ineffective or had side effects that made them unusable. Even for medicines that reached Phase 3 trials, just 63% succeeded.

    But the issues with these studies go beyond their small size or the fact that early promises, in research, often don’t pan out. It goes to one of the big truths about how doctors, eager to see a new drug succeed, can subconsciously lie to themselves with clinical studies: To be trustworthy, these studies often need to be randomized. This means that not only are some patients assigned to a control group that doesn’t get the promising medicine, but that who gets what treatment is decided, essentially, by a coin flip. (The most rigorous of these randomized trials are also “blinded,” meaning the doctors running the studies don’t know which patients are in which group.)

    ***

    The study Trump and others have touted was anything but randomized. Instead, Covid-19 patients were treated with either hydroxychloroquine or the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, an antibiotic also known as Zithromax, at a hospital in Marseille, France. They were compared to coronavirus patients at hospitals in Marseille, Nice, Avignon, and Briançon who didn’t receive these drugs.

    The study doesn’t show that patients lived longer or were more likely to recover, but instead shows that the amount of virus in the blood was reduced much faster in the patients who took hydroxychloroquine and even faster in the six patients who took the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin.

    That result is encouraging, but for patients who are not gravely ill, it doesn’t tell how to weigh the side effects of hydroxychloroquine against the potential benefits. That’s the reason for a clinical study like the one starting in New York.

    But for doctors on the front lines, particularly in New York City, where hospitals are becoming overwhelmed and where there are many patients on ventilators, the drugs could be an immediate option. As Cuomo put it in a press conference Friday, “where a person is in dire circumstance, [you] try what you can.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  49. I’ve never understood why the courts need to shut down. It should be easy for the lawyers to argue in front of judge, without getting too close and maintain 6 ft of distance. Of course, jury trials may have to be suspended, but legal work should continue.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  50. In addition, the FDA decides what drugs can be used. The FDA Commissioner has allowed chloroquine and Remdesivir, but only for compassionate use.

    Yes, they’re allowing them for the group of people who will be helped the least.

    These are viral-replication-blocking drugs. They only work well when used early. That’s why they’re taken for malaria, for goodness sakes.

    I’m basically saying the FDA and Fauci are being dumb and Trump is correct.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  51. I’m not saying fire the entire task force and haven’t said one word against Pence. I’m saying replace Fauci with someone better.

    He’s the worlds #1 immunologist, please, what qualifications in this “better” person do you want? Plus, what recommendations is he making that isn’t also from every other representative of the task force? Be specific.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  52. @27 — So your view is that the current regime, if continued for four months, let alone, 12 months, will not cause enormous suffering, including deaths and affects on health?

    Bored Lawyer,

    You have a very bad habit of arguing by saying “So you think [insert something I not only never said but said the opposite of in the post]?”

    You have done it twice now, in one post — and I am now going to motivate you to stop.

    The next time you do it, I will moderate you for a minimum of two weeks.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  53. Remdesivir is currently in Phase 3 trials, and chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine are being used in a Phase 1 trial in NY. Ant other use in the US will be compassionate use. It has been reported that David Lat is getting it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  54. I swear, I’m going to put “chloroquine” on my blocking script. Only schmendricks get their medical advice from 8chan.

    nk (1d9030)

  55. is these therapies only work well if you treat people EARLY.

    Exactly. By the time you know it be useful, it will generally be too late for it to be of use.

    Kishnevi (eef23c)

  56. Try reconciling this

    @27 — So your view is that the current regime, if continued for four months, let alone, 12 months, will not cause enormous suffering, including deaths and affects on health?

    with this thing I actually said earlier in the thread:

    I read this frequently, but I haven’t seen anyone lay out the mechanism by which a short to moderate term economic recession (or even depression) leads to a large number of deaths.

    I don’t know about a large number, but on the margins it can drive people into homelessness, drug addiction, inability to access medical care, and so forth. Prosperity is good for citizens’ health, and a depression is bad for health.

    There I am, saying that a depression could lead to enormous suffering, including deaths and effects (not “affects”) on health.

    And you accuse me of saying the opposite.

    Enough. You will stop this dishonest method of argumentation or I’ll stop you.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  57. Yes, they’re allowing them for the group of people who will be helped the least.

    These are viral-replication-blocking drugs. They only work well when used early. That’s why they’re taken for malaria, for goodness sakes.

    I’m basically saying the FDA and Fauci are being dumb and Trump is correct.

    Assuming facts not in evidence. No proof exists, and Trump is an idiot, but sure, let’s not listen to a group of hundreds of doctors, or someone who isn’t even a hobbyist. Trump also believes exercise isn’t good for you, an idiot. He’s the last person on the planet to listen to on healthcare advise.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  58. Exactly. By the time you know it be useful, it will generally be too late for it to be of use.

    Nah, not with widespread testing, yet another reason to slow the spread as much as possible. They have successfully worked in human beings. Same with Avigan:

    Doctors in Japan are using the same drug in clinical studies on coronavirus patients [as was used in the earlier study on 340 Chinese patients] with mild to moderate symptoms, hoping it will prevent the virus from multiplying in patients.

    But a Japanese health ministry source suggested the drug was not as effective in people with more severe symptoms. “We’ve given Avigan to 70 to 80 people, but it doesn’t seem to work that well when the virus has already multiplied,” the source told the Mainichi Shimbun.

    The same limitations had been identified in studies involving coronavirus patients using a combination of the HIV antiretrovirals lopinavir and ritonavir, the source added.

    In 2016, the Japanese government supplied favipiravir as an emergency aid to counter the Ebola virus outbreak in Guinea.

    Favipiravir would need government approval for full-scale use on Covid-19 patients, since it was originally intended to treat flu.

    So we have safety data on Avigan too.

    While your argument makes sense in principle, nk, in fact, it seems to work on people with mild to moderate symptoms. Once your symptoms are servere, it’s too late.

    I rather suspect that, and this is no slight on him since I’m sure he wasn’t even aware of it as an option and, if he had been, it would have been denied to him, that if David Lat could go back and take chloroquine and azithromycin upon being diagnosed, he would gladly do so.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  59. The federal courts have not shut down but they have rescheduled hearings and/or are using more video conferencing or telephone conferencing. The state courts have dealt with coronavirus is various ways. Some have shut down, limited access, conferencing, etc.

    DRJ (15874d)

  60. I wonder how many people here have decisions of this sort to make themselves. I know I do.

    The international non-profit that I am a trustee of has already canceled events and directed local chapters to cancel events. I’ve written one of those Covid-19 letters and am working on the follow-up.

    Our ongoing “program” work has become very difficult since it involves local meetings of members, most of whom are under lock-down orders of some sort or other. There is only so much that can be done via Zoom. For now, we are carrying our headquarters staff (in SoCal), but we have no income and don’t really expect to see any for a while. A month from now we’ll be laying people off and many of them have few resources to fall back on. And still we’ll have overhead to eat away our reserves.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  61. I said last this week that this lockdown regime was not going to last for more than a couple of weeks. It’s the kind of thing up with which Americans will not put.

    I know Americans. Believe you me. Nobody knows Americans better than I do. Nobody. Those people on the California beach, the spring breakers in Florida, Patterico driving so he could walk, that’s already the boiler leaking from the seams.

    nk (1d9030)

  62. Assuming facts not in evidence.

    It’s Fauci who described all the evidence as anecdotal and is not aware that recent studies have been done on it. That’s my point about Fauci.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  63. *was not aware

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  64. *While your argument makes sense in principle, kishnevi, […].

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  65. GOVERNMENT is largely shut down, too. The courts are shut. Blah, blah, blah…

    Bollocks! The courts are NOT “shut down” (except in a very few cases where cleaning was mandated).
    Courts regularly conduct business electronically, and have for years. In Texas, attorneys are not even allowed to file anything “on paper”.

    SOME jurisdictions are emptying jails. There could be some emptying prisons, but that really makes little sense except where prisoners are housed in open floor dorms.

    MOST civil litigation involves months or years of “paper practice”. The rare hearing can readily be done remotely (and have been for years).

    The same is true for a lot of criminal issues.

    “Jails” don’t have to be densely packed brick-and-mortar structures, as Sherf Joe demonstrated.

    The one area we need a new innovation to address is jury trials. I’m confident that can be successfully addressed.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  66. last this week

    nk (1d9030)

  67. It has been reported that David Lat is getting it [chloroquine].

    Yes, and while I hope it works, it would probably have stopped him from needing a ventilator at all if given when diagnosed.

    He should now be getting melatonin and a melatonin receptor agonist such as ramelteon to improve his odds of surviving the high-pressure ventilation but, likewise, I doubt very much that he is.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  68. Dr Fauci knows the French “study” isn’t really a study because it is so small and poorly designed that it is basically anecdotal. I think his discussion of it has been a fig leaf to placate Trump.

    DRJ (15874d)

  69. …it would probably have stopped him from needing a ventilator at all if given when diagnosed.

    And throwing virgins into calderas would probably halt earthquakes.

    Jaybus…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  70. Are you a doctor, physicians assistant, nurse or researcher, MAOA?

    DRJ (15874d)

  71. Attempts to gouge money out of the citizenry won’t go over well.

    As if that matters. They will get their money one way or the other.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  72. It’s Fauci who described all the evidence as anecdotal and is not aware that recent studies have been done on it. That’s my point about Fauci.

    Oh, not like there are any interviews with him specifically on that singular report. Not like someone else posted it above, and every other time you’ve posted a complete misunderstanding of his words. There is not a single doctor who isn’t skeptical, wants and wishes aren’t evidence of action.

    So your complaints that he isn’t promoting an unproven thing, by saying its unproven, is kind of rich. He’s also not saying that you should ask your fairy godmother for a cure either.

    It would be great if it worked to treat CV-19, even the study you think says it does…doesn’t say that.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  73. Even without blocking “chloroquine” the blocking script is a godsend.

    nk (1d9030)

  74. One of the reasons Italy is in so much trouble is because there was too much movement and not enough isolating. It’s just impossible to know whether an individual who is asymptomatic actually has the virus (see: Rand Paul). How many people did he unknowingly infect by interacting with them, both before and after he had his test (and positive result)? But we can still learn from Italy’s mistakes:

    But the tragedy of Italy now stands as a warning to its European neighbors and the United States, where the virus is coming with equal velocity. If Italy’s experience shows anything, it is that measures to isolate affected areas and limit the movement of the broader population need to be taken early, put in place with absolute clarity, then strictly enforced.

    Despite now having some of the toughest measures in the world, Italian authorities fumbled many of those steps early in the contagion — when it most mattered as they sought to preserve basic civil liberties as well as the economy.

    Italy’s piecemeal attempts to cut it off — isolating towns first, then regions, then shutting down the country in an intentionally porous lockdown — always lagged behind the virus’s lethal trajectory.

    Some officials gave in to magical thinking, reluctant to make painful decisions sooner. All the while, the virus fed on that complacency.

    Governments beyond Italy are now in danger of following the same path, repeating familiar mistakes and inviting similar calamity. And unlike Italy, which navigated uncharted territory for a Western democracy, other governments have less room for excuses.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  75. Bollocks! The courts are NOT “shut down” (except in a very few cases where cleaning was mandated).

    Sacramento Superior Court is planning to fully shut down its court operations as soon as Wednesday in an attempt to slow the spread of COVID-19, court officials said Tuesday.

    “We’re working toward full closure,” Superior Court spokeswoman Kim Pedersen said before a meeting of courts officials to discuss plans. “It could be as early as (Wednesday).”

    https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article241245621.html

    Across the state, a patchwork of measures have been taken to address the pandemic’s impact on criminal justice. San Diego’s courts will operate on an extremely limited basis through April 3. In Alameda County, courts are closed until April 7 except for certain proceedings, like arraignments and hearings regarding restraining orders.

    Orange County announced it would close its courts for 10 days starting March 17, but an attempt to host some proceedings in a Santa Ana courthouse this week descended into “complete chaos” that led many lawyers to fear for their own health.

    Leaders of the nine unions whose members work at L.A. County courthouses — including sheriff’s deputies, court interpreters and public defenders — have implored Brazile to add trained staff to screen courthouse visitors, provide soap to those in custody at courthouses, and allow bailiffs to limit courtrooms to 10 people.

    “It is irresponsible to allow the courts to resume as if it is ‘business as usual’ during this critical worldwide pandemic,” said the letter to Brazile. “We need to take action now in order to effectively protect the nearly 20,000 professionals who interact in these public buildings each day.”

    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-22/coronavirus-pandemic-courts-los-angeles

    Reducing throughput to the minimum is effectively shutting down. Let this go on for months and the backlog will be astonishing. The point is that many many things, public and private fall apart the longer this lasts. Pollyanna-ish claims that no harm will come is like the old “funemployment” crap that Obama’s apologists trotted out.

    Every aspect of our society is already hurting. I invite anyone who doubts that serious damage will occur in a long shutdown to limit your finances to the amount people get from unemployment insurance for the next 12 months.

    —-

    BTW, it sucks that the LA Times is not offering free access to its Covid-19 stories.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  76. And another 1000 article via Google.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  77. Note aside, I bought some Zoom Friday. Should have bought more.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. Also, while Italy’s leaders have defended their response, the facts say something different:

    In the critical early days of the outbreak, Mr. Conte and other top officials sought to down play the threat, creating confusion and a false sense of security that allowed the virus to spread.

    They blamed Italy’s high number of infections on aggressive testing of people without symptoms in the north, which they argued only created hysteria and tarnished the country’s image abroad.

    Even once the Italian government considered a universal lockdown necessary to defeat the virus, it failed to communicate the threat powerfully enough to persuade Italians to abide by the rules, which seemed riddled with loopholes.

    Politicians across the spectrum worried about the economy and feeding the country, and found it difficult to accept their impotence in the face of the virus.

    Most importantly, Italy looked at the example of China, Ms. Zampa said, not as a practical warning, but as a “science fiction movie that had nothing to do with us.” And when the virus exploded, Europe, she said, “looked at us the same way we looked at China.”

    It sounds familiar.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  79. One of the smarter things the Chinese did in containing coronavirus was to mandate the use of masks (to stop the spread to others) in the affected zones. We, and the idiots at the CDC, an organization so corrupt and stupid it would make the Communist Party blush, didn’t.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  80. Beach and state parks:

    I guess they didn’t figure that it wouldn’t only be locals but also folks thinking an hour drive for a more pleasant day was no big deal.
    __ _

    I really feel for those in tightly packed urban areas. But then there’s a lot of folks who deserve our thoughts.

    There are people out there with medical needs totally unrelated to the Wuhan virus that can’t wait but now must wait because of this. I spent a lot of time in the past few years around elderly people with all sorts of issues and now there are thousands who will be denied comfort from pain or worse because medical staff just can’t deal with the numbers.
    __

    harkin (b64479)

  81. Sen. Amy Klobuchar says her husband has tested positive for coronavirus

    After a persistent temperature and a “bad, bad” cough, Bessler began coughing up blood, Klobuchar said, prompting him to get a coronavirus test and a chest X-ray.

    He checked into a hospital in Virginia and “now has pneumonia and is on oxygen but not a ventilator,” Klobuchar said.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/sen-amy-klobuchar-says-her-husband-has-tested-positive-coronavirus-n1166631

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. In this thread I see a lot of point of views, all kinda grim, with the usual little bickering, but everyone wants the same thing. We want to protect eachother from spreading this incredibly easily spread disease without destroying the economy.

    It is disappointing that Trump is so kneejerk, communicating in allcaps. Even if he happened upon the fairest decision, the way he communicates like a bulldozer against reason, laughing at hardship, making clear he doesn’t care about all of us… just his people, it’s a good way to spread panic and fear. It’s why stores had a bad panic rush and will probably have another when it hits much harder.

    The overwhelming of our hospitals is inevitable but we know that social distancing has helped. We know that! It’s also destroyed a bunch of business and turned my life and many others upside down. Voluntarily entering a great depression is too much to ask.

    We need a president who can think outside the box about economic solutions and social distancing. he needs to shut up as much as possible and yeah, though this apparently upsets folks, he needs to defer to the professionals as much as possible. Have the self awareness to know if you’re an escalation and a blowhard.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  83. Reducing throughput to the minimum is effectively shutting down. Let this go on for months and the backlog will be astonishing.

    Oh…so now it’s effectively shutting down.

    Gotcha! And a whole two courts? Momma-mia…!!!

    Do you imagine “…this goes on for months”? Anybody…???

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  84. It’s probably been about 3 weeks since the wife and I decided to hunker down. Sometime in the first week of March. We’ve both made runs to the grocery and similar, an I’ve had a few doctor’s appointments. Using the N95 mask now when I go out. There’s only about 60 cases right now in the state, but of course there are a lot more, really.

    I could do this for a while, but then I own my house, have money in the bank and can live on my social security anyway. Especially all holed up like this.

    Thank God for the Internet, though. It makes connections still possible. I’m reminded of Asimov’s “The Naked Sun” though.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  85. What bench marks are needed to signal a relaxation of these state wide shutdownns? Patterico says its not 2 weeks. Fine. Time is not the determining factors. What are those factors and what numbers need to be hit?

    Iowan2 (bbb95d)

  86. Oh…so now it’s effectively shutting down.

    Before it was “largely shut down.” There I go, moving goalposts.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  87. https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/cruise-ship-passengers-stranded-coronavirus/index.html

    Not allowing these people to disembark is a bit irrational, I think. If anyone on board had the virus, it would be apparent by now. So they are probably one of the few groups in the world that can be guaranteed not to have it (at least until they get back on land).

    Kishnevi (eef23c)

  88. Italy has many Chinese ex-pats. Why don’t we read anything of that when we read about the high incidence of death?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  89. Gotcha! And a whole two courts? Momma-mia…!!!

    And thousands of others. Try using Google. Are you really going to argue that a failure to link more than two articles means there are only two articles? Really ?!?!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. Italy has many Chinese ex-pats. Why don’t we read anything of that when we read about the high incidence of death?

    They also have a large amount of ethnic Chinese workers, including from Wuhan, in their northern Italy textile industry. It was a factor in the early spread to Italy.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  91. But that doesn’t stop them from thinking the WaPo and NYT are printing the the God’s honest truth.“

    The NYTimes’ double headline change last night on the delayed vote of the bill was a textbook example of TDS.

    Related:

    Joe Biden
    @JoeBiden

    President Trump and Mitch McConnell are trying to put a corporate bailout ahead of families. It’s simply wrong. We need to be focused on helping hardworking Americans, communities, and small businesses — not handing big corporations a blank check.
    __ _

    Kevin Open hands Glass
    @KevinWGlass
    ·
    The Senate GOP bill that Dems claimed was bloated with unrelated handouts to special interests was 580 pages long.

    The Pelosi bill that’s now circulating is more than 1200 pages long.
    __ _

    Philip Wegmann
    @PhilipWegmann
    Some of the new demands from Pelosi that have miffed Republicans, according to a senior GOP Senate aide:

    1) “Unprecedented collective bargaining powers for unions”
    2) “Increased fuel emissions standards for airlines”
    3) “Expansion of wind and solar tax credits”
    __ _

    Gabriel Malor
    @gabrielmalor
    ·
    Conditioning desperately needed coronavirus relief on elements of the Green New Deal is totally irresponsible

    __ _

    Really wondering if people saying we need Biden and the Dems to rescue us from Trump are firing on all cylinders.
    __

    harkin (b64479)

  92. We need a president who can think outside the box about economic solutions and social distancing.

    That would be nice, but I’d settle for one who can think INSIDE the box. Like Pence. Instead we get Mr Gut-Instinct.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  93. MAOA,
    I don’t think anyone is saying that a given treatment doesn’t work/will never work. I think people (including Dr. Fauci) are saying that until a given treatment is known to work we shouldn’t assume it will and that our plans shouldn’t be based on it working.

    Since what appears to have worked in other countries (see South Korea) is social distancing / isolating cases holding out something that hasn’t been proven as a potential alternative could reduce adherence to a plan that has been shown to work.

    Time123 (af99e9)

  94. The short-sighted, and their reaction to rules put in place in order to help stem the spread of the virus:

    Three people who planned to attend political and religious events in the next few weeks are challenging New Hampshire’s statewide emergency ban on gatherings of 50 people or more to prevent spread of the coronavirus.

    David Binford, Eric Couture and Holly Rae Beene filed a lawsuit Tuesday, the day after Republican Gov. Chris Sununu issued the order prohibiting large scheduled gatherings for social, spiritual and recreational activities. They argue there is no emergency, and that the governor is violating their constitutional rights.

    “We can choose to assemble if that is our desire. What cannot occur is one man in a position of power deciding to strip us of our rights in the name of safety and without due process,” Couture said in press release.

    A judge on Wednesday denied the group’s request for an immediate order halting enforcement of the ban and scheduled a hearing for Friday in Merrimack County Superior Court. A spokesman for Sununu said Thursday that the emergency order is consistent with actions taken across the country and is clearly within the governor’s authority.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  95. #91. I’m going to bet that most of what’s in both of those bills is pork and waste. Both sides hate financial restrictions on spending, however meager, and see this crisis as an opportunity to raid the treasury.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  96. You can do this. Our family has been distancing, isolating, etc., for 20 years: We work, stock up, limit contacts, take advantage of delivery services and take out, plan ahead, visit with friends and family on the phone, find solitary interests or do what I do — make friends on the internet. It wasn’t easy at first. Sometimes it still isn’t easy, but you can do ths for a few more weeks. Then we will see where we are.

    DRJ (15874d)

  97. Fauci is a long time hack who will protect us all till our death.Probably smart but still stuck on the thalidomide disaster. Need more risk/reward tradeoffs.”
    “Huge amounts of evidence on chloraquil whuch he refuses to acknowledge.”+” Not invented here, ” is his problem should not be ours.

    john e morrissey (ecf9a2)

  98. A government order to close churches, or the press, due to some emergency would seem problematical. The words are “Shall make no law” not “Shall only make laws in emergencies.” Imagine if they tried to order the NY Times closed, or to stop newspaper deliveries, or censored TV news.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  99. It seems to me, we either rip the band-aid off quickly, and dig in and self-isolate as much as we possibly can, and let the markets do what they’re going to do, with the understanding that many people will suffer economic hardship as a result, or, we take the band-aid off slowly, and incrementally implement new measures and safeguards to help reduce the spread of the virus as well as slow the economic impact on individuals. Either choice has it’s own set of negative consequences that might have been mitigated by choosing the the other option. But when it comes to just slowing the spread of the virus and flatten the curve, a serious decision to fully self-isolate is one of the primary weapons we have at our disposal.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  100. You can do this. Our family has been distancing, isolating, etc., for 20 years

    It works a LOT better with income, or other money, than without. I suspect there are lots of people who can’t figure out what they are going to be living on next week. That kind of thing makes isolation even rougher.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  101. Cuomo:

    We have to start thinking about how we restart the economy. This was the thrust behind POTUS tweet last night, too. Excruciating needle to thread: Slowing/beating contagious pandemic on one hand, preventing economic catastrophe on the other. What/when is the tipping point?

    Dana (4fb37f)

  102. john e morrissey,

    “At the end of the day it is the President who has the responsibility to defend and protect.”

    DRJ (15874d)

  103. That would be nice, but I’d settle for one who can think INSIDE the box. Like Pence. Instead we get Mr Gut-Instinct.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/23/2020 @ 9:45 am

    OK I’ll give you that. There’s been no point in this presidency that I haven’t thought Pence would be less bad.

    It works a LOT better with income, or other money, than without. I suspect there are lots of people who can’t figure out what they are going to be living on next week. That kind of thing makes isolation even rougher.

    Indeed if you’re retired and just have to limit yourself to walking in the park, it’s a little lonelier but not hopeless. I worry about the paycheck to paycheck younger Americans who will try to socialize on video games but have social needs and financial problems.

    I also wonder how the ‘stimulus’ concept will change our politics. Everyone’s sitting at home waiting for a check.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  104. It seems to me, we either rip the band-aid off quickly, and dig in and self-isolate as much as we possibly can

    We can do both. Many of the people at risk — those on social security — can continue to isolate. Others can go back to work. One of the downsides to flattening the curve is you also lengthen it.

    You are going to get the same number of cases, and the same number of hospitalizations over time (containment has failed), but all you have to do is get the peak under the capacity. Increasing the capacity is part of that equation, and we are already doing that. Isolating as many potentially difficult cases as possible provides the most effective tool for continuing to flatten.

    So, the moment you have got the curve flat enough, there is no more point in the mass sequester.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. Compromise idea: wait until we have some surge in ventilators and improvised ICU beds before any rash decisions. Trump’s 15 day thing is arbitrary, but if we had a goal of a few hundred thousand ventilators and beds distributed throughout the country, it would reduce fear. It would be a lot better to wait for a medicinal cure, but I don’t think that’s realistic.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  106. 103: Although, to tell the truth, CA’s unemployment insurance is far more generous than it used to be. I would actually get more on it, had I been working at my normal job, than Social Security pays. Not sure how I feel about that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  107. We never stopped working, Kevin, but we had to be smart about it. Distancing can save money, too, since you forgo a lot of outside entertainment. That is bad for the economy but it is possible for a few weeks.

    DRJ (15874d)

  108. Compromise idea: wait until we have some surge in ventilators and improvised ICU beds before any rash decisions.

    Of course. If I were Fauci, that would be my argument, too. We are maybe a week away from having a solid stream of supplies. Maybe two. Given Trump, one has to ride the horse in the direction it’s going, but you can maybe slow to a walk.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  109. We never stopped working, Kevin, but we had to be smart about it

    I understood that. What I was suggesting is that the experience doesn’t quite translate to a situation where one was not.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  110. So, the moment you have got the curve flat enough, there is no more point in the mass sequester.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/23/2020 @ 10:05 am

    I agree, but it will be like a roller coaster and come back.

    Dustin, I think the focus should be ventilators and testing, because people won’t self-isolate or distance for long. Some won’t even do it now. We need to be able to know quickly where hot spots develop and let people know promptly and healthcare will know. Long-term, fast, easily accessible testing will be the key.

    DRJ (15874d)

  111. Spring Breakers Start Testing Positive

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-florida-spring-break-test-positive-covid-19-college-students-not-social-distancing-university-of-tampa/#
    __ _

    I frequent some other boards (movies, sports etc.) with a much lower age demographic and am hearing an alarming number say they don’t really care, that it’s going to be mostly old people who suffer and die.

    Some even refer to the virus as the ‘Boomer Remover’.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  112. Really wondering if people saying we need Biden and the Dems to rescue us from Trump are firing on all cylinders.

    Yes, and they’re running stuporchargers on those two cylinder mills!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  113. Every state handles this the way they see fit. Texas is still encouraging people to work, but work smart. We will see what works eventually. Right now, it is uncertain.

    DRJ (15874d)

  114. @92. “…I’d settle for one who can think INSIDE the box. Like Pence…”

    Uhhhh, no. Before his governor gig, Mikey was a wacko right wing Indiana radio talk show host for nearly a dozen years.

    Just like this fella:

    “Yeah, I’m dead right on this. The coronavirus is the common cold, folks.” -Rush Limbaugh, 2/24/20

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  115. @18

    And might I add, idiots taking ten times the recommended dose and poisoning themselves has nothing to do with chloroquine’s effectiveness at the dose for which it is recommended.

    Fatal dosage 2 times, not 10 times. Another instance where your lies are dangerous.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/23/2020 @ 8:23 am

    Depends… I’m pulling this from literature:

    ◾TOXICITY: The toxic dose varies widely depending on the specific agent.
    CHLOROQUINE: ADULT: The lethal dose is estimated at 30 to 50 mg/kg. As little as 2.25 to 3 g may be fatal in an adult.

    Comes in 250 mg and 500 mg tablets

    HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE: ADULT: Ingestion of 8 to 22 g by adults has caused life-threatening toxicity (ie, dysrhythmias, hypotension, and coma).

    Comes in 200 mg tablets

    So, you’re not being precise about the “two doses” comment.

    For reference, literature states toxicity and fatal doses of Tylenol exceeding 4 g per day (4000 mg). You can buy Extra Strength Tylenol OTC which are 500mg and taking more than 8 tablets at day is bad, yet no one freaks out about having that in your cupboard.

    Same with some patients taking Coumadin (Warfarin), as those are heavily regimented therapies to manage patient’s blood coagulation.

    Fact is, there are OTC medicines and definitely commonly prescribed medications with varying lethality if patient abuses the label.

    whembly (51f28e)

  116. There will always be some who won’t comply and some — like law enforcement, health care, who can’t. We do what we can. Every bit helps.

    DRJ (15874d)

  117. This isn’t brain surgery. Day by day, we can do this.

    DRJ (15874d)

  118. wait until we have some surge in ventilators and improvised ICU beds before any rash decisions.

    While an increase in venitlators etc. is of paramount importance, and will certainly save lives and obviously prevent our health care system from being overwhelmed by an increase in patients, that does not prevent us from doing what we can until that happens. And nor should it. To be passive rather than pro-active is to give the virus an even greater foothold.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  119. Really wondering if people saying we need Biden and the Dems to rescue us from Trump are firing on all cylinders.

    The Democrats have been an intestinal bacteria in American’s colon since January 8, 1828. Trump is AIDS.

    nk (1d9030)

  120. “ “Yeah, I’m dead right on this. The coronavirus is the common cold, folks.” -Rush Limbaugh, 2/24/20”
    __ _

    My sister is an ICU RN and at about the same time she was telling me that doctors at her hospital were telling staff that the Wuhan virus was not as bad as the average flu because more people had died from the flu.

    I tried numerous times to relate to her that the numbers were not the same, that they had to consider PERCENTAGES and not TOTALS and she said:

    “Do you think you know more about this than my doctors?”

    There were lots of people out there with much more informed backgrounds who should have known better. Lots of folks such as my sister and Limbaugh were definitely listening to the wrong sources.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  121. To some extent, I think that Trump is going to ease off of stay at home/isolation directives, not necessarily because of the economical fallout, but because he himself is unable to be alone with himself. He needs people to order around, get his strokes from and to measure himself against (and he always comes out on top!). Some people are more easily adapatable to taking that step, others not so much.

    What’s funny is, economic consequences set aside, when asked to self-isolate, we are not being asked to go fight Nazis or to sacrifice our children. We are simply being asked to stay at home for a period of time. Looking at it that way, it doesn’t seem like it should be that big of a deal.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  122. @117. This isn’t brain surgery. Day by day, we can do this.

    Did JoeyBee say that? 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  123. “ The Democrats have been an intestinal bacteria in American’s colon since January 8, 1828. Trump is AIDS.”

    Believing that a party willing to hold up an emergency bill to respond to the virus over things such as solar panels is the way to go is an interesting take.

    harkin (b64479)

  124. Compromise idea: wait until we have some surge in ventilators and improvised ICU beds before any rash decisions. Trump’s 15 day thing is arbitrary, but if we had a goal of a few hundred thousand ventilators and beds distributed throughout the country, it would reduce fear. It would be a lot better to wait for a medicinal cure, but I don’t think that’s realistic.

    There would still be that period of time until the goal is met. We should be pro-active during it, not passively waiting. There are common sense things we can do to prevent the spread of the virus (and to keep from getting it). Those options should not be set aside while waiting for medical supply goals to be met. They are not mutually exclusive ideas.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  125. @115

    Also, I’m not suggesting that anyone (except for perhaps the bright who have a supply and can’t do it any other way, yet have read the studies and the dosages used, in a dire emergency, in the same way that a remote, injured backpacker may self-administer antibiotics in a pinch) just decide on their own how much anti-viral drugs to take. I’m saying doctors should be encouraged by authorities to feel free to prescribe it, yes, after a diagnosis by them and manufacturers should be producing a shit-ton of it pronto.

    [This comment went to moderation because of the word shit. The filter keeps any comment with that word from posting.]

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  126. Interesting in some quarters… some hindquarters.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  127. @115

    Also, I’m not suggesting that anyone (except for perhaps the bright who have a supply and can’t do it any other way, yet have read the studies and the dosages used, in a dire emergency, in the same way that a remote, injured backpacker may self-administer antibiotics in a pinch) just decide on their own how much anti-viral drugs to take. I’m saying doctors should be encouraged by authorities to feel free to prescribe it, yes, after a diagnosis by them and manufacturers should be producing a crap-ton of it, pronto. They should be directed to by the federal government, and supported in doing same, under its lawful emergency authority.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  128. Believing that a party willing to hold up an emergency bill to respond to the virus over things such as solar panels is the way to go is an interesting take.

    I approve holding up McConnel’s bill. I do not trust it to be one iota more honest than “Nasty Nancy’s”. Just giving handouts to different cronies and buying the votes of a different constituency.

    And just when has Trump ever not signed any check Pelosi put in front of him? Like I said on the other thread, they’re both putting on a dirty San Francisco show for us. Trump calls Pelosi names, Pelosi cracks the whip, and Trump licks the soles of her stilettos.

    nk (1d9030)

  129. @124 That’s what I think Dustin is saying: don’t lift social distancing precautions until, at least, more ventilators are secured.

    While he’s right in principle, he’s talking about a therapy that isn’t very effective and most people put on it won’t survive. Anti-viral drugs and protocols, administered immediately upon diagnosis, would be a much better focus.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  130. You really need that $1,000 check so bad, Haiku?

    nk (1d9030)

  131. DRJ, that’s a good point. Simple awareness of what the situation is, via much better testing, makes this a much different and less scary problem for decision makers.

    I’m wary of those who automatically dismiss the idea that Biden would be doing a better job. I understand partisanship is at an insane level (And look where it got us) but Biden only needs to be better than super awful to be an improvement. At least Biden is capable of shutting up (apparently).

    And remember, both parties have told us to sit at home and wait for our uncle sugar check. Biden’s going to win if that’s the game we’re playing. If Trump really wants to show us he’s an innovative self-made entrepreneur, he needs to do more than giggling when each of his critics gets sick. It’s like that softball question ‘what would you say to frightened Americans’ that any president should be competent enough to want to address calmly.

    If the Trump presidency were a Mike Judge movie this would be hilarious… unfortunately this is really who we picked to lead us!

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  132. You really need that $1,000 check so bad, Haiku?

    A lot of people do.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  133. Believing that a party willing to hold up an emergency bill to respond to the virus over things such as solar panels is the way to go is an interesting take.

    First off, that wasn’t a thing.

    But giving the Munch half a trillion without any actual oversight is a terrible way to run a railroad.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  134. @123. Turtle Soup and whine. Yummy, eh?!

    Treasury’s power over $500 billion loan program becomes key sticking point in coronavirus aid bill – source, https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/03/22/treasury-coronavirus-sente-corporate-loan/

    The $500 billion slush fund in the hands on SoT Ned Ryerson is the hang up.

    “Woooooo, bing! That’s a doozy!” – Ned Ryerson [Stephen Tobolowsky] ‘Groundhog Day’ 1993

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  135. “ Pelosi cracks the whip, and Trump licks the soles of her stilettos.”
    __

    This will certainly set Nancy straight

    https://twitter.com/proustmalone/status/1242122205867192322?s=20

    _

    harkin (b64479)

  136. @136 That’s too short of a quote to be confident that isn’t quote-mining, harkin.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  137. Doctor Jill ain’t gonna let nobody mess with her man, you know that. If there’s any whip-cracking to be done, she’ll do it.

    nk (1d9030)

  138. Dr Fauci knows the French “study” isn’t really a study because it is so small and poorly designed that it is basically anecdotal. I think his discussion of it has been a fig leaf to placate Trump.
    DRJ (15874d) — 3/23/2020 @ 9:08 am

    Fig leaf, yes. Also, it is my advice for everyone to cut Dr. Fauci latitude in this matter, because he qualified at least one parameter that he required in a study in order to exclude the term “anecdotal”, namely, a “fully randomized” study. The French Report takes great pain to point out that it is a “non-randomized” study. That, is the element of the study which causes Dr. Fauci to call it “anecdotal.”

    felipe (023cc9)

  139. For machista nk, that simple fact is an automatic disqualification

    urbanleftbehind (c6b0a6)

  140. I need to correct myself:

    That, is may be the element of the study which causes Dr. Fauci to call it “anecdotal.”
    felipe (023cc9) — 3/23/2020 @ 10:55 am

    felipe (023cc9)

  141. @129. $5000.

    Anything less is sucker bait in 2020.

    If the U.S. Census can find and pinpoint your locale, the Ned Ryerson’s Treasury can; follow the census form procedure; punch in a unique household code, get a $5000 check per household in the mail.

    “14 into $350,000…” – Melville Crump [Sid Caesar] “It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World” 1963

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  142. Show of hands…who prefers no bailout and a abbreviated shelter in place? It’s possible Trump would rather let Mitch and Nancy fight to impasse kabuki style and then goad states into lifting shelter orders much sooner than aensible.

    urbanleftbehind (c6b0a6)

  143. And thousands of others.

    Look at what you said…hysterically…up thread.

    How many thousands of courts are there in the US, Kevin?

    Remember your “millions die in an economic collapse”. I do.

    Stop with your hyperbolic cra…er…nonsense.

    One of us practices law, and our legal system is not…and won’t…”shut down”.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  144. Some people got 2 mailers from the Census Bureau.. .a paper questionnaire and an online code…that’s a tin can ugly color compact car from the previous model year…now I realize why DCSCA digs that idea.

    urbanleftbehind (c6b0a6)

  145. Compromise idea: wait until we have some surge in ventilators and improvised ICU beds before any rash decisions. Trump’s 15 day thing is arbitrary, but if we had a goal of a few hundred thousand ventilators and beds distributed throughout the country, it would reduce fear. It would be a lot better to wait for a medicinal cure, but I don’t think that’s realistic.

    Dustin (b18b7a) — 3/23/2020 @ 10:08 am

    This isn’t a bad idea. What I’d really like to see is an overall plan that lays out the problem, how we will measure success and what we will do to get there. There are parts of that out there but you’re right the overall package is still not fully defined. Maybe in 15 days we’ll take stock and look at certain metrics such as ventilator utilization. Maybe we’ll get the experts together and they’ll look at lot of different things. Wish they’d be more clear about those sort of details.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  146. Looking at Biden in that video makes me wonder if they’ll build a simulated digital Biden, insist the Debates take place by teleconferencing and just use the simulator.

    The lockdowns stopping him from going out, interacting with folks and having his responses video’d is like a gift from heaven.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  147. @144. The code only works once.

    Ignorance is bliss. Stay happy.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  148. Sigh. Chloroquine is chemotherapy. It poisons your blood and makes it a bad place for the malaria parasite to live in. Like most chemotherapy, it is also an immunosuppressive. That’s why they give it to people with rheumatoid arthritis and other autoimmune diseases. You don’t want to take an immunosuppressive when you’re fighting a virus.

    Its proponents for use against the coronanavirus are the same people who deny there was a Holocaust. I don’t know why sane people are even discussing it.

    nk (1d9030)

  149. Its proponents for use against the coronanavirus are the same people who deny there was a Holocaust. I don’t know why sane people are even discussing it.

    Because Dr. Cheetos has been promoting it, it obviously is a miracle cure. If it wasn’t, how could he be promoting it. He’s been perfect in his response so far. The dumb doctors just don’t know what they’re talking about, Dr. Cheetos went to the best schools for doctoring, and stuff.

    Colonel Klink (Red) (9878f6)

  150. Trump vs. Fauci

    One guy is from Queens; the other from Brooklyn.

    “Let’s get ready to rumble!!!” – Michael Buffer, boxing & wrestling ring announcer

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  151. Note aside: The DOW’s interday low (so far) today of 18,213 represents a 38.5% decline from the peak. This is more than the eventual drop following the 1987 crash, or the 2000/2001 double-crash, making this the biggest stock market crash in my lifetime.

    By comparison, the 1929-1932 crash (from 381.17 to 41.22 three years later) was an 89% decline. It would be a good idea to keep that in perspective.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  152. BarcaLounger Generals are the Bee’s Knees!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  153. The DOW would have to drop to 3250 to equal the 1929 crash. That won’t happen.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  154. Looking at Biden in that video makes me wonder if they’ll build a simulated digital Biden, insist the Debates take place by teleconferencing and just use the simulator.

    The lockdowns stopping him from going out, interacting with folks and having his responses video’d is like a gift from heaven.
    _

    harkin (b64479) — 3/23/2020 @ 11:04 am

    Biden is perfect for a simulated president because he’s got that uncanny valley thing. In fact, has anyone here actually seen Biden in person in the last year? What if Sanders, Tulsi, et al are actually in on it?

    🤔

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  155. @151. Reaganomics. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  156. John Roberts
    @johnrobertsFox

    New York Governor @andrewcuomo announces that beginning tomorrow, the State will begin treating some patients with a combination of Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin.
    __ _

    John Fund
    @johnfund

    “Anecdotal” evidence apparently was enough to convince Cuomo. Bottom line: drug has been used for years, off-label use is less dangerous than the virus it treats.
    ___

    Amy Curtis
    @RantyAmyCurtis
    ·
    Trump: “Chloroquine might treat this virus.”

    Media: “Trump is giving people false hope and peddling a drug that could kill you!” (If you took 20x the usual dose)

    Cuomo: “Let’s try chloroquine!”

    Media: “He’s amazing! What hope in these dark times! Cuomo 2024!”
    __ _

    harkin (b64479)

  157. The DOW would have to drop to 3250 to equal the 1929 crash. That won’t happen.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/23/2020 @ 11:15 am

    It wouldn’t have if you hadn’t tempted fate. Now it certainly will and it will be your fault.

    Thanks Kevin M.

    Time123 (b87ded)

  158. If the Trump presidency were a Mike Judge movie this would be hilarious… unfortunately this is really who we picked to lead us!

    And again, imagine how badly the establishment misread the electorate that this seemed like a good 2×4 to hit them over the head with. Populism doesn’t just happen, it takes long dedication on the part of the rulers to get the people out with the torches and pitchforks.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  159. 3250 would be a good time to jump in if civil order still exists.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  160. Now it certainly will and it will be your fault.

    Hey, Patterico is the guy who keeps saying “Depression!”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  161. “Had he been a younger man, he probably would have made it. That’s the point. Don’t wait too long in life.” – Egbert Sousé [W.C. Fields] “The Bank Dick” 1940

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  162. Dana, #124: I agree whole heartedly. There is so much smoke in all of this commentary, and I appreciate freedom of expression, but I see a great deal of self-confirmation.

    Please, everyone. Stay healthy, and let your loved ones and friends know how you feel.

    We will get out on the other side of this, despite all the doomsaying. Yes, there will be a cost. We have been so very lucky since 1957.

    Support the folks working so hard to keep our stores stocked, our health care people, and the transportation teams who keep wheels turning.

    Best wishes all.

    Simon Jester (6067ca)

  163. BTW, considering I sold a house in 2018, I’d better file my 2019 taxes quickly if I want a check.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  164. Tweet of the day so far:

    Devastatingly depressing but also making me laugh:

    https://twitter.com/ranjanxroy/status/1242117958480076801?s=20
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  165. Gold: $1,561.40/oz., +76.80 (+5.17%) at Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:13PM EDT – U.S. markets close in 1 hour 37 minutes.

    :-)

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  166. @163. Ned said you have ’til July.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  167. Please, everyone. Stay healthy, and let your loved ones and friends know how you feel.

    We will get out on the other side of this, despite all the doomsaying. Yes, there will be a cost. We have been so very lucky since 1957.

    Support the folks working so hard to keep our stores stocked, our health care people, and the transportation teams who keep wheels turning.

    Best wishes all.

    We need more of this!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  168. As if brick and mortar stores didn’t have enough problems in the age of Amazon, this lock-down will end many of them. Best Buy is not allowing anyone into their stores, even outside of lock-downs. They will allow curbside pickup, or even curbside shopping, but for all intents and purposes they are online only now.

    And God help what’s left of Fry’s Electronics.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  169. Always a confidence builder when you see more doctors on TeeVee than on a Trump golf course.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  170. Biden is an appropriately aged Max Headroom. If he shows up in a pinstripe suit. The jig is up.

    urbanleftbehind (c6b0a6)

  171. “John Roberts
    @johnrobertsFox

    New York Governor @andrewcuomo announces that beginning tomorrow, the State will begin treating some patients with a combination of Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin.”

    This is misleading. What did Cuomo actually do, Harkin?

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  172. And thousands of others.

    Look at what you said…hysterically…up thread.

    How many thousands of courts are there in the US, Kevin?

    Thousands of articles. What IS your problem??

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  173. And for some levity about the current situation. The governor of Pennsylvania ordered all businesses, except for “life sustaining” businesses, shut down.

    In Bethlehem PA, there is a candy manufacturer, producing, among other things, yellow marshmallow chicks named PEEPS (popular around Easter, although sold year-round).

    PEEPS are ‘life sustaining,’ so production will continue in Bethlehem during pandemic

    Regardless of what the nutritional facts are on the side of a box of PEEPS, the marshmallow treat’s producers in Bethlehem believe that it’s an emotionally healthy necessity and therefore, an essential business.

    Just Born, the company behind PEEPS as well as Mike & Ikes, Hot Tamales and more, sent out a statement in the wake of Pennsylvania Governor Tom Wolf’s order for all non-life-sustaining businesses to close down in order to stop the spread of coronavirus. Food manufacturing falls into the “life-sustaining” category, which includes PEEPS.

    https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/coronavirus/2020/03/peeps-are-life-sustaining-so-production-will-continue-in-bethlehem-during-pandemic.html

    I can just see the discussion now:

    Kid: Dad, can I have some candy?

    Dad: No, we are eating dinner soon.

    Kid: But Dad, candy is life-sustaining!

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  174. @163. Ned said you have ’til July.

    Not if I want a check, because that house sale put me out of contention if they base my need on 2-year-old income.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  175. Not that I really want a check, but I have a charity that needs it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  176. Washington Post fact-checker attacks people for quoting Joe Biden verbatim

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/washington-post-fact-checker-attacks-people-for-quoting-joe-biden-verbatim?_amp=true&__twitter_impression=true
    __ _

    𝚒’𝚖 𝚊 𝚑𝚒𝚐𝚑𝚠𝚊𝚢 𝚝𝚜𝚊𝚛
    @BecketAdams
    ·
    Biden said there would be “no ability for the oil industry to continue to drill, period” under his admin.

    People quoted him on it, noting the change in his platform.

    WaPo: Biden’s campaign says he “misspoke. That is good enough for us. Zero Pinocchios!
    __ _

    Simulated Joe and the American news media just might get him over.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  177. And, as a public service announcement, let me share the following that someone forwarded to my wife yesterday on WhatsApp:

    This is from our IT guy: If you know anyone using WhatsApp you might pass on this. An IT colleague has advised that a video comes out tomorrow from WhatsApp called martinelli do not open it , it hacks your phone and nothing will fix it. Spread the word.
    If you receive a message to update the Whatsapp to Whatsapp Gold, do not click !!!!!
    Please inform all contacts from your list not to open a video called the “Dance of the Pope”. It is a virus that formats your mobile. Beware it is very dangerous. They announced it today on BBC radio. Fwd this msg to as many as you can!

    So apart from the coronovirus (or, as I call it, the ChiCom virus), we still have to worry about the digital kind.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  178. “ Kid: But Dad, candy is life-sustaining!”

    I’ve never been a candy eater, even as a kid. I just never liked it thank goodness plus I’m allergic to chocolate and ive been rewarded with zero cavities.

    But if you’ve ever seen a candy aisle at a supermarket, it isn’t just kids who feel this way.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  179. 170. I always thought the resemblance between Biden and cranky Walter was uncanny. And moreso since Joe’s been losing his hair.

    Gryph (08c844)

  180. Harkin, Can you show where the Wapo ‘attacked’ anyone?

    Time123 (af99e9)

  181. So, I see you can get toilet paper on Amazon. Problem is it’s no-name Chinese TP at a high price.

    I sense a conspiracy theory coming on.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  182. “ Harkin, Can you show where the Wapo ‘attacked’ anyone?”

    If you don’t understand the use of the word ‘pounced’, instead of ‘quoted verbatim’, you’re pretty late to the game.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  183. You really need that $1,000 check so bad, Haiku?

    Nope… we’re retired and comfortable. You can have mine, nk, it’ll keep you in chocolate.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  184. Thousands of articles. What IS your problem??

    YOUR bs is the problem. You are full of crap, Kevin!

    Of the TWO citations you actually MANAGED to show, one was about some trouble at a courthouse. NOT that it was shut down.

    You NEXT handwave at “thousands” of Google hits.

    My question to you was how many THOUSANDS of courts there are in the nation. Hinting to you that the number closed…FOR A MATTER OF FREAKING DAYS ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN CITATIONS…might be a tiny fraction.

    My problem is your hysterical crap, Kevin. Stop it…!!!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  185. We’re all in this together. Let’s try to chill.

    DRJ (15874d)

  186. We’re all in this together. Let’s try to chill.

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/23/2020 @ 1:13 pm

    +1

    Let’s have compassion. I know how easy it is to get wrapped up in these disagreements but this is also a community.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  187. There is a post up about the continuing negotiations on the aid package.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  188. If you disagree with another commenter, that’s fine. Just remember Patterico’s rule of no personal attacks. Violations will land you in moderation for a period of time.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  189. “ He offered a curt response when asked about when he momentarily wiped his brow demonstratively when Trump referred at one event the “Deep State Department.” Trump’s critics have highlighted this as evidence of the alleged exasperation officials feel with Trump’s commentary on the matter.
    “No comment” is all Fauci would say.”

    There are all sorts of issues w Trump speaking about the virus but anybody who saw this and didn’t see he was suppressing a laugh is suffering from TDS.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/VABVOX/status/1241071695252914181
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  190. You’d better define “personal attacks” if you’re addressing my comments. Noting that someone is posting hysterical crap is not a personal attack in my lexicon, especially after a long sequence of posts. Search “court” for explication.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  191. harkin (b64479) — 3/23/2020 @ 1:25 pm

    But was he laughing with Trump or at Trump?

    Or possibly he started to laugh, then decided it wasn’t a dood time for jokes, no matter who the emcee of the show might be.

    Kishnevi (dbdcc5)

  192. *good* time for jokes

    Kishnevi (dbdcc5)

  193. Or pure, unadulterated exasperation.

    I think your last suggestion was most accurate.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  194. The Surgeon General has warned that taking medical advice from Donald Trump may be hazardous to your health:

    Medical toxicologists and emergency physicians are warning the public against the use of inappropriate medications and household products to prevent or treat COVID-19. In particular, Banner Health experts emphasize that chloroquine, a malaria medication, should not be ingested to treat or prevent this virus.

    “Given the uncertainty around COVID-19, we understand that people are trying to find new ways to prevent or treat this virus, but self-medicating is not the way to do so,” said Dr. Daniel Brooks, Banner Poison and Drug Information Center medical director. “The last thing that we want right now is to inundate our emergency departments with patients who believe they found a vague and risky solution that could potentially jeopardize their health.”

    A man has died and his wife is under critical care after the couple, both in their 60s, ingested chloroquine phosphate, an additive commonly used at aquariums to clean fish tanks. Within thirty minutes of ingestion, the couple experienced immediate effects requiring admittance to a nearby Banner Health hospital.

    Note to irony-challenged: the Surgeon General has actually said no such thing. I am riffing off of smoking warnings from the 1980s.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  195. You’d better define “personal attacks” if you’re addressing my comments. Noting that someone is posting hysterical crap is not a personal attack in my lexicon, especially after a long sequence of posts. Search “court” for explication.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/23/2020 @ 1:29 pm

    I’ve had arguments with Kevin many times and thought both of us were stupid at the end of it. It doesn’t matter. This is a place to come enjoy yourself while bashing dumb politicians (or bashing me for bashing them, as some prefer) but we should bash the ideas and the politicians.

    Redefine your lexicon. Seriously. Even if he’s wrong just be more generous. Read between the lines and recognize that some folks are isolated and enjoying these discussions for a little interaction that goes beyond liking a meme on facebook, but actually getting some intelligent challenging discussion. I think you’re a funny guy and I’m a total hypocrite on this subject, but it takes one to know one right?

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  196. 194. Maybe administer chloroquine/hydrochloroquine by prescription?

    Gryph (08c844)

  197. Yeah, its so sad we don’t have Hillary in charge. A Chi-com asset. I’m sure we’d still be having flights from China if she was President. But maybe things will improve when we get Biden as President. Finally, a man who will stand up to China – LOL!

    rcocean (1a839e)

  198. > The worst-case scenario is much worse than anything I have heard him say.

    I’d like to echo and reiterate this point.

    The worst-case scenario involves 15 million dead Americans. I don’t know how *likely* that scenario is, but it’s *possible* given what we know.

    aphrael (7962af)

  199. A man has died and his wife is under critical care after the couple, both in their 60s, ingested chloroquine phosphate, an additive commonly used at aquariums to clean fish tanks.

    Stupid is, as Stupid does.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  200. Kevin M — both the legislature and the courts are going to need to figure out remote distributed work solutions.

    aphrael (7962af)

  201. No the worst case scenario is 320 million dead Americans. Its not likely though.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  202. The routine use of specific treatments, including medications described as ‘anti-COVID-19’, is not recommended for non-hospitalized patients, including the anti-malarial drug chloroquine.

    So. Incredibly. Stupid.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  203. Is Our Fight Against Coronavirus Worse Than the Disease?

    There may be more targeted ways to beat the pandemic.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opinion/coronavirus-pandemic-social-distancing.html?

    Shocked that the NY Times published this. Many are saying similar things, and it cannot just be dismissed as the rantings of our Imbecile-In-Chief.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  204. There may be more targeted ways to beat the pandemic.

    Yep. For example, mass production of simple disposable face masks, via executive order to private businesses, and instructions for the public to wear them to protect others from infection. Dispose them in a plastic bag when you return home and wash your hands. When full, tie it up and leave it for 48 hours. The virus won’t be viable after that. Dispose normally.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  205. For example, mass production of simple disposable face masks, via executive order to private businesse

    Ditto mass production of testing kits. That is the one thing that, IMO, should be put at the very head of the line. Every article I have read has emphasized the critical importance of mass testing. The technology is certainly known, so why is there not a mass rush to produce testing kits (and train technicians to administer the tests, and commandeer labs to run the tests)?

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  206. @202 MAOA

    The routine use of specific treatments, including medications described as ‘anti-COVID-19’, is not recommended for non-hospitalized patients, including the anti-malarial drug chloroquine.

    So. Incredibly. Stupid.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/23/2020 @ 2:12 pm

    No buddy… that’s standard practice.

    What can be used on patients in acute situation in a hospital can be inappropriate in a OTC scenario.

    So, ANY threapies using chloroquine (and hydrochloroquine) off-label MUST be under supervision by qualified medical professionals. There’s not enough study/literature to objectively state that this works without longterm implications.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  207. We finally agree! Doctors can do this. They already are, and I hope and pray it works.

    But when a President says it is a good idea, it isn’t surprising that some people might decide to do it for themselves. Presidents have to be careful what they say because people follow all sorts of strange, stupid advice.

    DRJ (15874d)

  208. I agree, Bored Lawyer 205. Testing seems like the one common theme that explains better results. If the government were to order one thing be produced, that should be it but hopefully private manufacturers are stepping up.

    DRJ (15874d)

  209. It *is* a good idea DRJ…and warrants further investigation under medical supervision. But, I missed the part where Trump advised the public to start taking it.

    Did he suggest it?

    People do dumb things, ie that couple taking the chloroquine phosphate used for their fish tanks. That definitely isn’t medication quality and Trump isn’t to blame there..

    whembly (fd57f6)

  210. @209

    How about gin and tonic?
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/can-schweppes-inhibit-coronavirus-infection-millmond-m-d-mba/

    Kishnevi (dbdcc5) — 3/23/2020 @ 3:02 pm

    This is interesting and probably worth studies…

    But at this point, we don’t know for sure how much quinine would be an effective prophylaxis nor even conclusively that it is even effective.

    But, hey, mixologist out there is prolly branding their mixed drinks now. 😉

    whembly (fd57f6)

  211. 211. Therapeutic doses of quinine for anti-malarial are around 100mg, I believe for daily dose. 12 oz of tonic water has about 67-80 mg, so you’d need to drink *a lot*. Probably more than I’d feel comfortable with. And I’m not sure if your kidneys would flush out the quinine (which is water-soluble) too quickly to be of therapeutic benefit. Of course, as always, IANAD

    Gryph (08c844)

  212. 212. My bad…it’s about 67-80 mg per liter. Not 12 oz bottle. Too little to be of any practical therapeutic benefit.

    Gryph (08c844)

  213. 211. The testing for chloroquine has been at its normal therapeutic concentrations for anti-malarial. I think what makes researchers a little skittish about this kind of speculation is that malaria isn’t caused by a virus at all.

    Gryph (08c844)

  214. Your numbers have to be wrong, Gryph. By your numbers, you’d only need about 16 ounces of tonic water, which tastes like ass incidentally (the bad kind), a day.

    Make America Ordered Again (28befd)

  215. “For example, mass production of simple disposable face masks, via executive order to private businesses, and instructions for the public to wear them to protect others from infection. Dispose them in a plastic bag when you return home and wash your hands.”

    https://twitter.com/KevinlyFather/status/1241449150341758984

    Trump with some very important news about sanitizing masks.

    Davethulhu (3857ea)

  216. Two alarming stories from nurses I know:

    At a hospital on the north coast of CA, they have run out of masks.
    _

    At a hospital in the southwest, a patient is near death with lung failure and the nurses have been demanding for over 48 hours that they test him for COVID. The hospital told them they want to test for valley fever first and if that’s negative they’ll test for COVID.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  217. “ Trump with some very important news about sanitizing masks”

    The heath official MD who was telling people they didn’t protect from the virus the other day got crushed.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  218. 215. Per liter. Not per 12 oz. I corrected myself.

    Gryph (08c844)

  219. My question to you was how many THOUSANDS of courts there are in the nation

    I’m sorry but the reading comprehension class is closed now. F-

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  220. Note to irony-challenged: the Surgeon General has actually said no such thing. I am riffing off of smoking warnings from the 1980s.

    But he should.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  221. Hopefully indeed!!

    I really hope that Florida guy recovered because of that drug and certainly it only shouts the need to continue trying it but folks gotta be real careful about attributing it as the certain cure.

    harkin (b64479)

  222. Kevin M — both the legislature and the courts are going to need to figure out remote distributed work solutions.

    Yes, of course they are. But there’s lots more to government that those. I mentioned the courts because they were the most visible shut-downs, but I’d hate to be waiting for the building inspector on my shower pan. Not everything can be done over the Internet.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  223. Simply repeated, Raspierre:

    76. And another 1000 article via Google.

    YOU: Gotcha! And a whole two courts? Momma-mia…!!!

    89. And thousands of others. Try using Google. Are you really going to argue that a failure to link more than two articles means there are only two articles? Really ?!?!

    Are you really going to tell me that the “1000” or “thousands” in my posts discussion refers to COURTS and not articles?

    This is seeming less like discussion and more like harassment on your part.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  224. 223. Oh, come on. It’s not a cure. I never said it was a cure. Trump, to my knowledge, never called it a cure. It showed promise. It shows promise. And there ought to be enough clinical evidence for our CDC and AMA to jump at the chance to start using it here.

    Gryph (08c844)

  225. My wife is always interested in alternative treatments, sometimes to my dismay. But she heard Trump talking up this malaria drug today and her only comment was “Where did he get his medical degree?”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  226. Now, here’s something from someone who has a clue”

    Michael Levitt, a Nobel laureate and Stanford biophysicist, began analyzing the number of COVID-19 cases worldwide in January and correctly calculated that China would get through the worst of its coronavirus outbreak long before many health experts had predicted.

    Now he foresees a similar outcome in the United States and the rest of the world.

    While many epidemiologists are warning of months, or even years, of massive social disruption and millions of deaths, Levitt says the data simply don’t support such a dire scenario — especially in areas where reasonable social distancing measures are in place.

    “What we need is to control the panic,” he said. In the grand scheme, “we’re going to be fine.”

    https://news.yahoo.com/why-nobel-laureate-predicts-quicker-210318391.html

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  227. I’m sorry but the reading comprehension class is closed now. F-

    Well, who would know more about that than you?

    Your are still hand-waving at Google.

    AND the two courts you actually cited were NOT “shut down”. As the words say explicitly. For those who DO read.

    But I’ll ask AGAIN, just to make it ever MORE clear; of the thousands (probably tens-of-thousands) of courts in the US, how many are “shut down”? What percentage is that of the total?

    If you feel harassed, it is because you post hysterical crap that others identify as just that. See your 45 (above).

    Some of us like the truth.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  228. Re: post @4:37pm

    ^^^discipline must be restored^^^

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  229. Kevin, I read it, his estimate, with a bunch of caveats that trusting China’s numbers probably isn’t great, but his estimate was China would peak in 8-12 weeks of isolation.

    Awesome if true, it’s still months not weeks, and definitely not 15 days.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  230. OK, I’l will answer you if it will shut you up, even though it galls me to do so.

    There are indeed “thousands” of courts in the United States, and it depends a bit on how you count.

    There are 94 US District Courts, 12 US Circuit courts and a Supreme Court. There are also many other federal courts, such as BK and administrative courts, but I’ll ignore these for now.

    There are approximately 2000 state superior court districts, spread over 3000 counties/parishes (not all states equate districts with counties). There are maybe another 100 1st level state appellate courts and 50 state supreme courts.

    There are an uncountable number — but well into the thousands — of municipal, juvenile, traffic and other petty or limited jurisdiction courts. And then there are justices of the peace, magistrates and other types of court-like things.

    Did you not know this?

    Happy now?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  231. …but I’d hate to be waiting for the building inspector on my shower pan. Not everything can be done over the Internet.

    Well, here’s a funny lil’ factoid…a building inspector does NOT require a crowd to perform his/her job. Matter of fact, I’ve been watching various trades go about building new homes and having their work passed by inspectors all day. You name it, it’s being done.

    Out on the mostly empty highways, you’ll see crews making major alterations. The TDoT guys are out riding herd on them, too.

    Why, hell, I bet the food safety inspectors are still at work at the warehouses and stores.

    I know the people at the VA are working, because I spoke to them a few hours ago.

    Some “shut down”.

    Don’t be hysterical. And learn to deal gracefully with push-back when you are so laughably wrong.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  232. Awesome if true, it’s still months not weeks, and definitely not 15 days.

    I do not feel like defending the Captain’s “facts” today. Then again, we have arguably been at this since Jan 31st. It would not surprise me that we had to go through April, but after that things get so painful we’d need a damn good (and obvious) reason or the political will would evaporate.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  233. Don’t be hysterical.

    Hey guys, do I seem hysterical? I’m really tired of this crap. I’d say “hectored” myself.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  234. Nope… we’re retired and comfortable. You can have mine, nk, it’ll keep you in chocolate.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/23/2020 @ 12:37 pm

    I can buy my own chocolate, thank you very much. Give it to Donnie Trump, Jr. Daddy Trump’s hotels are going bankrupt and ex-Mrs. Newsom needs new nipple rings.

    nk (1d9030)

  235. Did you not know this? Happy now?

    Of course I knew it. That’s how I knew your ridiculous hysterical bs was just exactly THAT.

    I was always sanguine about what I KNEW, and you were blowing out your…respirator.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  236. Hey guys, do I seem hysterical?

    “There are additional problems with a long siege other than the simple economic ones. GOVERNMENT is largely shut down, too. The courts are shut. The jails are being emptied. In some places felons will be released early.”

    Cats and dogs sleeping together…!!!

    Yes, honey. You ARE hysterical. But I got nutin but luuuuuve fer ya, baby…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  237. “15 Days” is Not Enough to Slow the Spread”

    I find this narrative, as opposed to the one propagated by Dr. Fauci in 2009 with H1N1 and years ago with HIV, to be curious.

    According to the CDC’s final estimate of 2009 U.S. H1N1 cases published in 2011:

    https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/estimates_2009_h1n1.htm

    From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010
    approximately 60.8 million U.S. cases 
    274,304 U.S. hospitalizations
    12,469 U.S. deaths occurred due to H1N1 (comorbidities not the culprit).

    That’s the empirical data from CDC.  

    Now, here’s Dr. Fauci under President Obama in September 2009 after 3,000 to 4,000 H1N1 deaths in the USA  -vs- Dr. Fauci under President Trump in March 2020 after 300 COVID-19 deaths. This was after about the same amount of time had elapsed after the introduction of the respective viruses:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=hsXEgJqR_vY&feature=emb_logo

    Gee, what a difference a decade makes!  

    But it gets even clearer: Dr. Fauci and his colleague Dr. Birx, during one of the Coronavirus press conferences last week, addressed the 96%+ negative test rate for Coronavirus in South Korea and the U.S.: 

    Yeah. No, thank you, Mr. Vice President, for mentioning that because, as I told you, in South Korea there are 250,000-plus tests. About 96-plus percent were negative. So — and that was with symptoms.

    So we’re working very hard integrating everything they have learned about symptoms and screening, and that is going into the development of this website. So it’s not just a simple checkbox website. It’s actually going to go through critical symptoms. And that’s why we’re giving ourselves the weekend to get it put up.

    So far, in the United States, from LabCorp and Quest, they’re running about a 99 to 98 percent negativity. This always worries me because I’ve worked in public health a long time. When you tell someone they’re negative, yes, it’s reassuring, but the last thing we want is them so reassured that they stopped practicing these critical practices that are going to protect all of us.

    This epidemic will be stopped at the community level. Those are the individuals — it’s Americans and their response that will get us over this hump. And that’s why, yes, we’ll have testing available. We’ll have to know that many of them are going to be negative, and you’re going to have to help us carry that message that that means, just at that moment, you’re negative, you need to continue to do all of your protection and protection of others to ensure you remain there.

    https://publicpool.kinja.com/subject-remarks-by-president-trump-vice-president-pen-1842335215

    Let’s recap: 98 to 99% of the American people tested, who have symptoms (similar to flu + pneumonia), test negative for COVID-19.  We are spending trillions and destroying lives to avoid a virus almost no-one carries.

    As of 7:58 pm EST on 3/23/2020:

    42,691 cases (estimated to be 10% – conservatively – of the total number due to FDA misfeasance in regulating testing, but that should be a post for another day)
    565 dead (we won’t know how many were exacerbated by comorbidities for quite some time)

    So, if the estimates of infection are correct we’re at about a .1% mortality rate. Yes, it might get worse.

    Will this year’s pandemic kill as many in the U.S. as in 2018: 18,000? No one knows for certain and won’t for a while.

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  238. Beach and state parks:

    I guess they didn’t figure that it wouldn’t only be locals but also folks thinking an hour drive for a more pleasant day was no big deal.

    Yes, I caught your passive-aggressive criticism and it’s nasty and unfair. The problem at the park was NOT that there was a crush of people and therefore people could not help but congregate. It’s a big f*cking park. I congregated with nobody. The problem was that some people were indeed congregating because they clearly didn’t care about social distancing.

    And I did have a pleasant day, despite the anger and resentment of people like you at the fact that I did.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  239. “ Oh, come on. It’s not a cure. I never said it was a cure. ”
    __

    You’re reading me wrong. I was responding directly to Haiku’s post.at 220. I even quoted his ‘hopefully’ as a reference.

    I dont even have a clue what you said which you mistakenly assume I responded to.

    I was only saying that these are crazy days and we have to speak with caution.
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  240. whembly,

    Trump did not say “Take this drug” but he came close and I am not surprised some people took it that way:

    Trump said Thursday that chloroquine and its less-toxic cousin hydroxychloroquine had shown “tremendous promise” to treat the new illness.

    The president doubled down on Saturday, telling his Twitter followers that hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin “taken together” could be “one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine.” He urged they “be put in use IMMEDIATELY.”

    Trump was still touting the drugs today.

    DRJ (15874d)

  241. Trump was still touting the drugs today.

    He’s pandering to the 8chan crowd who came up with it. I was just about to comment on the stimulus negotiations thread how both parties are pandering to their respective weirdo fringes.

    nk (1d9030)

  242. He needs there to be a cure. We all do but he needs it for political power more than survival.

    DRJ (15874d)

  243. Patt – I’m not angry or resentful that you went for a drive to a park you like.

    I am having a bit fun tho because of how you responded earlier.

    I’m amused that you declared extended moderation to a commenter who seemed to understand the spirit of what a ‘Shelter In Place’ policy actually means better than you or state officials who bizarrely not only suggested but actually encouraged people who should be staying close to home to visit state parks. I spent a great deal of my youth at a state park, Huntington State Beach. IMO that suggestion was asinine.

    I’m sure there were more than a few people who soaked in the salt air, the ocean view and sand in their toes and thought ‘Not bad for house arrest’, or however you phrased it.

    In this thread and the previous one where I told you I thought your one hour drive was excessive, I don’t feel I exhibited any anger at all, but surely less than you did to people who suggested you might have done something that wasn’t worth celebrating.
    _

    harkin (467f23)

  244. He needs a cure, first and foremost for his own ego. He can then boast that *he* was the president that led the country through the health crisis, and to an eventual cure. Then the politics.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  245. And I certainly don’t think it was ‘nasty and unfair’

    harkin (467f23)

  246. 245. Governor Kristi Noem signed an executive order today that will almost certainly mean the loss of my job within the next week, tops. I’m open to ideas about how to deal with this, and I don’t think a walk in the park will be much help. How about some more practical advice, Pat?

    And yeah, I’m more than a little angry and bitter. Am I headed for moderation next?

    Gryph (08c844)

  247. Hey, Dana, I had a weird “flu” with an onset just a little before yours. And I just saw Kevin M’s comment about his sister’s family’s experiences at around the same time. http://patterico.com/2020/03/23/u-s-hampered-by-missteps-in-coronavirus-response/#comment-2327181. I wonder …. Do you?

    nk (1d9030)

  248. One thing about Trump still shaking hands…..

    I had always read that he was a complete germ phobia type who even had a guy who followed him around with hand sanitizer etc.

    I realize all presidents do this these days but this was way before Trump was even elected.

    I’m surprised he’s still shaking hands.
    _

    harkin (467f23)

  249. 248 – Gryph – that sucks, hope it isn’t so but if you really do get cut off I hope you get the support you need.
    _

    harkin (467f23)

  250. Gryph,

    I’m sorry to hear that. I dont think people are carefully weighing the damage these forced closures are doing to people whether for their normal health or their monetary survival.

    A 60 year old with a lifetime of savings can survive this harm. A 25-30 year old with a new mortgage and a baby, not so much. What will we do for the young that we continue to destroy their future?

    NJRob (2e5014)

  251. I’m sorry, Gryph.

    DRJ (15874d)

  252. “ A 60 year old with a lifetime of savings can survive this harm”

    I’m in my 60s and I have been stowing away money for decades. I had to forego a lot of extras, vacations and toys to do this.

    But I also have major scar tissue in my lungs from five years of re-occurring issues including viral pneumonia. My doctor told me if I avoided getting a lung bug again I could reach my mid-80s.

    There’s survival and there’s survival.
    _

    harkin (467f23)

  253. Thanks guys. I’m sorry too. More sorry than words can say.

    Gryph (08c844)

  254. 242. Trump isn’t wrong to tout chloroquine as a possible way to alleviate this thing without quite as much mass hospitalization. The problem with his enthusiasm is twofold: He’s a blathering inarticulate moron, and his FDA is standing in the way of compassionate use.

    Gryph (08c844)

  255. Trump was still touting the drugs today.

    Arizona man dies after self-medicating with chloroquine to treat coronavirus

    His wife is in critical condition.

    Dave (1bb933)

  256. We need to get chloroquine into the hands of doctors and pharmacists who can proceed to prescribe and dispense it for use under medical supervision. /stipulation

    Gryph (08c844)

  257. I spent a great deal of my youth at a state park, Huntington State Beach

    Ohhhh yeahhhhhh… The days of (tortilla) strips and hot sauce, followed up with a fried bean burrito, coke and bodysurfing!

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  258. We need to get chloroquine into the hands of doctors and pharmacists who can proceed to prescribe and dispense it for use under medical supervision.

    Why? Just out of blind panic?

    Remember your meme of the other day?

    There is every possibility that it does not work. Pushing it out into the populace and it NOT working would be awful.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  259. Don’t worry folks, Dr. Fauci tells us we can save the whole of mankind by hanging in our homes all day and night doing absolutely nothing.

    Realize that this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, so don’t screw it up.

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  260. 260. No. Not out of blind panic. I’m okay with compassionate use on the basis of anecdotal medicine, particularly when that compassionate use actually saves lives.

    But not pushing it out into the populace is guaranteed not to work. Compassionate use, baby. Compassionate. Use.

    Gryph (08c844)

  261. NBC:

    The couple did not have coronavirus symptoms but took the chloroquine phosphate as a preventative measure. They feared contracting coronavirus.

    The couple each mixed 1 tsp of chloroquine phosphate w soda. Within 20 minutes, they began experiencing severe sickness & called 911

    “I was in the pantry stacking dog food and I just saw it sitting in the back shelf and thought, ‘Hey, isn’t that the stuff they’re talking about on TV?’ And it was.”

    Hillyard interviewed her from her hospital bed over the phone:

    “This is the most horrible day of my life. And it feels like, like my heart is broken and it’ll never mend. It’s just broke–dead. Like my husband.”

    “I’m 61. My husband is 68. We’re healthy. No, no, underlying–no diabetes or lung issues. No “Oh my God. Don’t take anything. Don’t believe anything.

    Don’t believe anything that the President says and his people because they don’t know what they’re talking about. And don’t take anything–be so careful and call your doctor. This is a heart ache I’ll never get over.”

    “We saw Trump on TV — every channel — & all of his buddies and that this was safe,” she said.
    “Trump kept saying it was basically pretty much a cure.”

    Dana (4fb37f)

  262. The President is not just some average Joe spouting off. He sits in the most powerful office in the world. He absolutely must use self-control and discipline when he is in front of a microphone or tweeting because there are people that believe what he says. They think he knows what he’s talking about because of the position he holds. This is just a dreadful shame.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  263. All of this gloom and doom doesn’t do any good. The panic is worse than the virus.

    When an elderly couple drinks fish tank cleaner, because it contains some chemical Trump mentioned on TV–one dead, the other in critical condition–that’s a sign of how severe the paranoia has become.

    The stock market is plummeting. But that was to be expected, because it was oversold to begin with. The economy may be heading toward a recession or worse a depression. That’s what Trump is worried about. He ran on the image of him being some sort of brilliant businessman, yet in reality he’s been an abject failure at every business venture, other than selling his brand name. Bankrupt investors, short-changed contractors, thousands of lawsuits, most of which he settled–that’s his legacy.

    Now, look at him as president, incompetent and inept, unread and uniformed. And look at the Republicans in thrall. The federal government is running $1 trillion deficits a year. And now they want to pass a $2 trillion spending package to save the country from the coronavirus and resurrect the economy? It’s madness.

    Yes, this virus is highly contagious, as it has rapidly spread around the world, but it doesn’t appear to have a high fatality rate. Most of the confirmed deaths are among the elderly and those with underlying conditions.

    Yet look at the response–closing of schools, cancelling of sporting events, social distancing–stay home! That’s one sure way to wreck an economy.

    We may be headed toward a severe recession, or maybe a global depression, but it won’t be because of the coronavirus. It will be because of the idiotic response to it.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  264. A 60 year old with a lifetime of savings can survive this harm. A 25-30 year old with a new mortgage and a baby, not so much. What will we do for the young that we continue to destroy their future?

    On April 1st, Americans age of 60 and above should continue to isolate themselves/shelter in place, while the young folks go back to work. Everyone should adhere to the preventative health measures, maintain personal space as we identify which areas of the country are most affected and take appropriate measures. I think Kevin had suggested something along these lines.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  265. I don’t know enough to say that some Chinese doctors did not in fact use chloroquine on patients on ventilators as an immunosuppressive to treat cytokine storms* because that’s the only immunosuppressive they had. And that’s all I can see it being good for against coronavirus.

    *(which are damaging immune reactions)

    nk (1d9030)

  266. When an elderly couple drinks fish tank cleaner…

    Chalk it up to the Darwin Principle.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  267. From Andrew Cuomo’s executive order 202.10 today:

    No pharmacist shall dispense hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine except when written as prescribed for an FDA-approved indication; or as part of a state approved clinical trial related to COVID-19 for a patient who has tested positive for COVID-19, with such test result documented as part of the prescription. No other experimental or prophylactic use shall be permitted, and any permitted prescription is limited to one fourteen day prescription with no refills.

    So no off-label use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine in New York state at all. If you or your loved one die waiting, too bad for you.

    Make America Ordered Again (28befd)

  268. I reading in the WSJ that some folks can’t get this chloroquine (people who were prescribed it for reasons other than this virus). It’s apparently in shortage and being hoarded like toilet paper.

    Frustrating how stupid this is.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  269. 228 –

    Optimism is in short supply everywhere, it seems.

    There are five biotech firms that are developing therapeutic antibody treatments for COVID-19. One – Distributed Bio – got a head start by leveraging our knowledge of SARS. They bypass vaccine development, avoiding lengthy testing. They are partnering with Pfizer and DARPA. If successful in summer trials, it will be available for use in September.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvfulLdrND0

    It is effective for 8 weeks. Would be huge for preventive use with healthcare professionals and to keep Corona at bay until better prevention (vaccines) and treatments are available.

    I am so grateful to live in a country with so many brilliant scientists.

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  270. 265/266 – right on.

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  271. 267. Cytokine storms are more common in CoViD-19 cases than in seasonal flu, but they’re still a vanishingly small percentage of documented CoViD-19 cases. If the anti-malarial pharmacodynamics have anything to do with why it works on CoViD-19, it may not be because of immunosuppressant action at all. In any event, I believe Dr. Fauci is right to point out that more testing is called for.

    Gryph (08c844)

  272. But not pushing it out into the populace is guaranteed not to work. Compassionate use, baby. Compassionate. Use.

    Nope. Blind panic. That’s what you’re about. And you don’t care about hurting or killing people. It won’t do any good.

    See now what you were doing here the other day?
    ————————————————————————————–
    By all means, lets have very careful, scientific trials. I’m dubious that it will prove out, but I do have great respect for the science. Blind faith is not that, but a healthy skepticism linked to a love of inquiry is the way to go.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  273. 270. Andrew Cuomo isn’t doing anyone in New York State a favor by restricting its possible dispensation and use there.

    Gryph (08c844)

  274. Arizona man dies after self-medicating with chloroquine to treat coronavirus

    His wife is in critical condition.

    Dave (1bb933) — 3/23/2020 @ 7:38 pm

    Didn’t you say people would accidentally OD on this stuff?

    Trump’s supporters are still wearing campaign mementos like those red hats years after election day. They are a lot different from typical political supporters. Putin really tapped into something fundamentally amiss in our society, and we’re seeing just how far these folks can be manipulated. Taking pills they didn’t need to the point that they die, because a reality show president sent a tweet.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  275. 274. GFY Ragspierre.

    Gryph (08c844)

  276. 263… yay, Comcast!

    IIRC, Comcast/NBC never reported on the tens of thousands hospitalized and one thousand American lives lost to H1N1 in 2009 before Obama declared a State of Emergency.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  277. Let’s also keep in mind, off-label drug prescriptions are fairly routine. Minoxidil was prescribed as an anti-hypertensive vasodilator for a long time before doctors figured out that it screwed with testosterone levels to the point of making bald men’s hair grow back.

    Gryph (08c844)

  278. When an elderly couple drinks fish tank cleaner, because it contains some chemical Trump mentioned on TV–one dead, the other in critical condition–that’s a sign of how severe the paranoia has become.

    But the President of the United States didn’t just “mention it”:

    In a press conference last week, he said the drug, which the FDA has not yet approved for treating COVID-19, “could be a game changer.”

    “And maybe not. Maybe not, but I think it could be, based on what I see, it could be a game changer. Very powerful, they’re very powerful,” he said.

    He also tweeted:

    HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE & AZITHROMYCIN, taken together, have a real chance to be one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine. The FDA has moved mountains – Thank You! Hopefully they will BOTH (H works better with A, International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents)…..

    This is a moment (among a hundred other moments) where should have kept his mouth shut and deferred to the experts

    Dana (4fb37f)

  279. 274. GFY Ragspierre.

    Can’t handle your own medicine, huh? (See what I did there?)

    If you are worried about job loss, get your donkey on you ass and go where there’s work. Baby.

    Millions do, and they never b!tch and moan a particle as much as you have here.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  280. 276 – Populism arises as our institutions fail us. A great example is the Rs and Ds dueling over pork which sadly won’t address the needs of those irrevocably hurt by this crisis.

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  281. Gryph (08c844) — 3/23/2020 @ 8:12 pm

    GFY Ragspierre.

    You use that a lot. Is that code for something? Great food yesterday? Did you have a good lunch yesterday?

    frosty (f27e97)

  282. 281. My own medicine? I said that I don’t think blind panic should be the basis for setting policy. Requesting that the FDA get off its ass and approve a drug for compassionate use on the basis that it might help “flatten the curve” isn’t asking them to change policy. You are twisting my words in a way that is unworthy of serious debate.

    So GFY, Rags.

    Gryph (08c844)

  283. 283. GFY too. Frosty. If you gotta ask, you’ll never know.

    Gryph (08c844)

  284. Gryph (08c844)

    OF COURSE it’s ENTIRELY different when pointed at YOU.

    What a pitiful excuse for a…I dunno what you’d qualify as.

    Jock up, moaner.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  285. 286. I’m not sick. I don’t personally know anyone who is. Your mischaracterization of my call for compassionate use of hydrochloroquine as “blind panic” is just that: A mischaracterization. I’m through arguing with you.

    Gryph (08c844)

  286. “ Ohhhh yeahhhhhh… The days of (tortilla) strips and hot sauce, followed up with a fried bean burrito, coke and bodysurfing!”
    __ _

    OK it’s your fault, the ‘strips and hot sauce’ did it:

    Paddling out on foggy mornings and surfing without being able to see the shore
    Tourists on rental rafts creating an obstacle course
    Girls
    Keeping an eye on families drifting in surplus navy rafts in case they needed rescue after the sneaker set wiped them out
    Black ball flags at 10am
    Concrete fire rings filled with empty Michelob and T-Bird bottles
    Girls
    Sand so hot you had to stand on your towel every 15 steps
    “If the dorsal fin coming at you is going up and down, good. If it’s weaving back and forth, BAD.”
    Watching the infamous SoCal beach horseflies land on sleepers and then waiting for them to levitate as they lost a half ounce of flesh
    Girls
    Old timers whiter than beluga whales in huge straw hats with metal detectors
    The water every January going crystal clear and seeing fish everywhere
    Girls
    Wondering why the rainbow gleam to the water looked like it had an oil slick and then discovering you were covered in dolphin whoopie.

    and…..

    Being a 15 year old passenger in my friend Timmy’s mom’s charger and getting pulled over by state police for Timmy doing 120 mph on the parking lot connector road……….and the only penalty being we had to pour out our beers.

    …..and girls

    Can’t mention shooting the pier, that’s City Beach.
    _

    harkin (467f23)

  287. Just ignore the assholes, Gryph.

    nk (1d9030)

  288. 289. Ragspierre just made his way into my blocking script. I haven’t made much use of it since the 2016 presidential campaign, but here we are.

    Gryph (08c844)

  289. I nominate that Arizona couple for a Darwin award.

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  290. Speak for yourself…and I hope like hell hes not the next man in Texas’ line for 2022: http://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/Dan-Patrick-says-he-is-willing-to-risk-his-own-15152350.php

    urbanleftbehind (0ffb16)

  291. It’s Dry Florida.

    urbanleftbehind (0ffb16)

  292. I think Kevin had suggested something along these lines.

    He did, but April 1st is too soon. Maybe May 1st. I note that one can get as much as $1300 a week from unemployment in CA. That’s gone up a lot the last few years. Enough to get by on, even in L.A., for a short time.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  293. Whether they were the sharpest tools in the shed or not is beside the point when we are discussing POTUS promoting something that can be lethal if not used under a doctor’s supervision.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  294. 295. In case I haven’t made it abundantly clear, I am for the prescription of chloroquine under compassionate use protocol. PRESCRIPTION. By a doctor. Can’t say it loudly or often enough. Don’t go drowning yourself in tonic water or drinking fish tank cleaner, people! SMDH

    Gryph (08c844)

  295. 292. He’s a total phony. I expect Gov. Abbott will set him straight.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  296. Ragspierre just made his way into my blocking script. I haven’t made much use of it since the 2016 presidential campaign, but here we are.

    I uninstalled it when hf left, but I guess I’ll have to do that again.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  297. 298. I kept it around for just such an occasion.

    Gryph (08c844)

  298. I never realized they grow such dainty pansies here…!!!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  299. 300. Did you say something Raggy? If you did, I didn’t hear it. 😉

    Gryph (08c844)


  300. chetjang
    @chetjang
    ·
    The warning by Banner Health comes after an Arizona man in his 60s died from taking a substance used to clean fish tanks at aquariums in order to prevent contracting COVID-19. This was not hydroxychloroquine taken at an appropriate dose or even meant for human consumption!
    __ _

    csuros_S
    @csuros59
    ·
    Now @realDonaldTrump will have to say don’t take aquarium cleaner at every news conference
    __ _

    harkin (467f23)

  301. Ragspierre just made his way into my blocking script.

    Yup.

    nk (1d9030)

  302. Ragspierre just made his way into my blocking script. I haven’t made much use of it since the 2016 presidential campaign, but here we are.

    If that guy devoted more energy to actual thought and arguments than name calling and cutesy juvenile name-calling at that, he’d be dynamite!

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  303. What the hell is wrong with Dan Patrick?

    Gryph, I’m sorry about your job. It’s a small consolation but there will probably be some kind of assistance. There are some jobs, stocking groceries or temp jobs with the census.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  304. 305. I haven’t lost it yet, but it’s just a matter of time. When it comes to over-reaction, more states seem to be taking a hold my beer approach.

    And in the meantime, you have Dr. Birx at the podium in the White House saying “we used blunt force…” because “…we didn’t know where the virus was, or where it was going.” How many of you simps out there still don’t think that qualifies as blind panic?

    Gryph (08c844)

  305. 305. And I appreciate the concern Dustin, but I do have a backup plan. It will require me to go to people I really don’t want to ask for help, but as you can no doubt tell, I have plenty of pride to swallow.

    Gryph (08c844)

  306. First, the FDA has approved (designated) chloroquine and remdesivir for Expanded Access, or “compassionate use,” by the FDA to address the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic.

    Second, New York has not banned the use of chloroquine. The order states it is available as part of a clinical trial. The clinical trials start tomorrow:

    New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Sunday that drug trials to test coronavirus treatments will begin in the state Tuesday, after President Trump on Thursday said the Food and Drug Administration approved one of the drugs for clinical trials, as New York becomes the epicenter for the pandemic in the U.S.

    During a Sunday press briefing, Cuomo said 750,000 doses of chloroquine, 70,000 doses of hydroxychloroquine and 10,000 doses of Zithromax were acquired by New York state for the trial.

    Chloroquine (an anti-malaria drug) and hydroxychloroquine (used for lupus and arthritis) were approved by the FDA for clinical trials as possible coronavirus treatments, while Zithromax is a brand-name antibiotic.

    “The president is optimistic about these drugs and we are all optimistic that it could work,” Cuomo said.

    Dr. Anthony Fauci, head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases said Friday that the drug’s promise was “anecdotal,” adding, “It was not done in a controlled clinical trial. So you really can’t make any definitive statement about it.”

    Trump said Thursday that he spoke with Cuomo about chloroquine prior to the FDA’s go-ahead for clinical trials, and that Cuomo wanted to be “first in line” for testing the treatments.

    DRJ (15874d)

  307. Whether they were the sharpest tools in the shed or not is beside the point when we are discussing POTUS promoting something that can be lethal if not used under a doctor’s supervision.

    No one said it should be used without a doctor’s supervision.

    However, as of today, you can’t GET it with a doctor’s supervision in NY state as a treatment option.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  308. Which state just so happens to be the state with, by far, the most COVID-19 patients in the country, so this is going to affect A LOT of people!

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  309. No, MAOA, it will be part of a trial.

    DRJ (15874d)

  310. 308. As part of a clinical trial, there will have to be people getting placebo pills. With compassionate use, everyone prescribed the medication knows that they’re getting the real deal and doctors can prescribe it at their discretion. The time for clinical trials of an anti-viral regimen would have been before one of the greatest government cluster****s of the 20th century.

    Gryph (08c844)

  311. The FDA approval is limited to use “with serious or life-threatening cases.” It will only be used in hospitals no matter where you live.

    DRJ (15874d)

  312. Clinical trials.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  313. Maybe, Gryph, but not necessarily. It depends on how they structure it. It may be they give some patients chloroquine alone and others get chloroquine and Zithromax. Or some may get chloroquine and others get hydroxychloroquine

    DRJ (15874d)

  314. So, ANY threapies using chloroquine (and hydrochloroquine) off-label MUST be under supervision by qualified medical professionals.

    Except the governor of the state with, by far, the most COVID-19 cases per capita and in absolute numbers, just banned that tonight.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  315. 313. Uh-huh. And it’s up to doctors to prescribe chloroquine when a case meets that definition in their opinion. My point is, when prescribed for compassionate use, a patient doesn’t have to wonder if they’re getting sugar pills. In clinical trials, there’s a 50-50 chance that they are.

    If Cuomo’s intent was to prevent off-label non-compassionate-use prescription of chloroquine, I could understand where he is coming from. Unfortunately, I’m not sure how well thought out that executive order’s wording was. Compassionate use is, by-definition, off-label.

    Gryph (08c844)

  316. Reports said some lupus and arthritis patients have not been able to get hydroxychloroquine, so my guess is most coronavirus patients will get chloroquine to keep from depleting hydroxychloroquine. They ordered far more of chloroquine for the trials.

    DRJ (15874d)

  317. The FDA approval is limited to use “with serious or life-threatening cases.” It will only be used in hospitals no matter where you live.

    Which is phenomenally stupid, since it’s already been demonstrated with other antivirals like Avigan, lopinavir, and ritonavir that it only works well if given early, to prevent the viral replication from being widespread and tissue-damaging.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  318. 315. And some will get placebos. All use of an approved drug for an unapproved purpose is considered off-label (including compassionate use exemptions) unless and until a double-blind clinical trial of “sufficient rigor” is submitted to the FDA for consideration.

    I took pharmacology as one of my classes in nursing school. I remember it so vividly from some 15 years ago because of the impression the drug approval process left on me. It’s wonder that anything gets approved the way bureaucrats bottleneck the drug research process.

    Gryph (08c844)

  319. 318. Hydroxychloroquine is a submetabolite of chloroquine, which in turn is essentially a form of synthetic quinine. Hydroxychloroquine is somewhat safer for long-term use in treatment for chronic conditions, while a case could be made for chloroquine’s suitability for shorter-term anti-viral therapy if indeed it does work.

    Gryph (08c844)

  320. Governor (D) Gina Raimondo of Rhode Island, just did the opposite there, and supported off-label use of already FDA-approved drugs to treat COVID-19.

    Good for her. That’s what a decent human being would do, and a smart one, too.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  321. 322. The thing about off-label usage is, whether approved for compassionate use or not by the FDA, the FDA approval process asserts the safety of the drug in question. The concern then becomes with the drug’s efficacy for a use for which it hasn’t been tested officially. And I say officially because many off-label uses for drugs are initially noticed as harmless or beneficial side effects by doctors that do prescribe them.

    Gryph (08c844)

  322. The thing about off-label usage is, whether approved for compassionate use or not by the FDA, the FDA approval process asserts the safety of the drug in question. The concern then becomes with the drug’s efficacy for a use for which it hasn’t been tested officially. And I say officially because many off-label uses for drugs are initially noticed as harmless or beneficial side effects by doctors that do prescribe them.

    Exactly. This is easily the best comment on this thread. It also happens to be President Trump’s point, and Governor Raimondo’s.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  323. 324. It’d be nice if Government Cheeto was better at articulating that, dontcha think?

    Gryph (08c844)

  324. 325. *President Cheeto. Blech. I think it’s getting late and I know I’m getting tired.

    Gryph (08c844)

  325. You’ve captured the scene like a professional.

    I’d add:

    * remembering the music of the times
    * spending most of a summer day at the beach and racing home to make it to your school’s summer league basketball game
    * gorgeous girls
    * nearly drowning after getting caught in the rip
    * scooping up grunion when they were running at night
    * beer… Spañada wine… hurl!

    HB used to be so crusty and cool back then. Today I need a landmark (e.g., Jack in the Box… PCH and Warner?) to get my bearings, it has changed so much.

    Colonel Haiku (ac91f9)

  326. 326, 327

    Trump articulated it. I understood him. Most of the country understood him. Even. Dr. Fauci understood him (and that’s saying something).

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  327. Toward a balanced and sensible approach. Unfortunately, we’re talking about the federal government, here.

    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/03/public-health-and-economic-prosperity.php

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  328. Do you have a link regarding your Rhode Island comment? Can a State overrule the FDA’s decision on how/when a drug can be used?

    DRJ (15874d)

  329. In the interest of reducing magical thinking about your favorite remedy, an actual report about what is going on that is not based on internet rumors:

    https://www.livescience.com/chloroquine-coronavirus-treatment.html

    Nic (896fdf)

  330. Haiku

    How could I forget the grunion!!!!!

    https://youtu.be/jtkMt0iu9Zg

    Not everyone welcomes the little critters tho:

    https://youtu.be/RNdSBGnY0sc

    _

    harkin (467f23)

  331. Thank you, Nic. I’m always glad to have been wrong about good news.

    nk (1d9030)

  332. You are quite welcome. It looks like the have a couple of studies that are in process or will be in process shortly, so hopefully we’ll get some good information soonish.

    Nic (896fdf)

  333. Look, I realize not everyone was convinced by the article I posted earlier pointing out the specific biochemical mechanisms melatonin may act antivirally in COVID-19 and how it’s probably more than a coincidence that those demographics with the highest melatonin levels (young children, third-trimester pregnant women [there is an elevation of melatonin between the second and third trimesters], and their fetuses) emerge from COVID-19 almost unscathed…

    … melatonin has also been shown to be helpful in SARS, West Nile Virus, and several others as you can read here:

    The therapeutic effects of melatonin against viral infections, with emphasis on the Venezuelan equine encephalomyelitis (VEE), are reviewed. Melatonin has been shown to prevent paralysis and death in mice infected with the encephalomyocarditis virus and to decrease viremia. Melatonin also postpones the onset of the disease produced by Semliki Forest virus inoculation and reduces the mortality of West Nile virus-infected mice stressed by either isolation or dexamethasone injection. An increase in the host resistance to the virus via a peripheral immunostimulatory activity is considered responsible for these effects. It has also been demonstrated that melatonin protects some strains of mink against Aleutian disease, and prevents the reduction of B- and T-cells as well as Th1 cytokine secretion in mice infected with leukemia retrovirus. In VEE-infected mice, melatonin postpones the onset of the disease and death for several days and reduces the mortality rate. This protective effect seems to be due to the increase in the production of interleukin-1beta (IL-1beta), as 100% of the infected mice treated with melatonin die when IL-1beta is blocked with antimurine IL-1beta antibodies. Although melatonin administration raises serum levels of tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) and interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma), the mortality observed in neutralization experiments with the corresponding anticytokine antibodies, suggests that neither TNF-alpha nor IFN-gamma are essential for the protective effect of melatonin on murine VEE virus infection. Melatonin treatment also enhances the efficiency of immunization against the VEE virus. Reactive oxygen species have been implicated in the dissemination of this virus, and their deleterious effects may be diminished by melatonin. This indole inhibits nitric oxide synthetase activity and it is a potent scavenger of nitric oxide, which also plays an important role in the spread of the VEE virus. In conclusion, the immunomodulatory, antioxidant, and neuroprotective effects of melatonin suggest that this indole must be considered as an additional therapeutic alternative to fight viral diseases.

    Bonilla E, Valero N, Chacín-Bonilla L, Medina-Leendertz S. Melatonin and viral infections. J Pineal Res. 2004 Mar;36(2):73-9.

    So why not add the smallest tablet (300 mcg) you can routinely buy to your nightly regime and get a better night’s sleep while perhaps saving your life and the lives of those you love?

    Take your melatonin.

    You know how there is wide variance in who suffers badly from COVID-19 and to whom it isn’t a big deal?

    This could be a big reason here.

    FINALLY, there was a study that just was published just one week ago that shows researchers are at least LOOKING at melatonin in a positive light:

    Drug repurposing, representing as an effective drug discovery strategy from existing drugs, could shorten the time and reduce the cost compared to de novo drug discovery. In this study, we present an integrative, antiviral drug repurposing methodology implementing a systems pharmacology-based network medicine platform, quantifying the interplay between the HCoV–host interactome and drug targets in the human protein–protein interaction network. Phylogenetic analyses of 15 HCoV whole genomes reveal that 2019-nCoV/SARS-CoV-2 shares the highest nucleotide sequence identity with SARS-CoV (79.7%). Specifically, the envelope and nucleocapsid proteins of 2019-nCoV/SARS-CoV-2 are two evolutionarily conserved regions, having the sequence identities of 96% and 89.6%, respectively, compared to SARS-CoV. Using network proximity analyses of drug targets and HCoV–host interactions in the human interactome, we prioritize 16 potential anti-HCoV repurposable drugs (e.g., melatonin, mercaptopurine, and sirolimus) that are further validated by enrichment analyses of drug-gene signatures and HCoV-induced transcriptomics data in human cell lines. We further identify three potential drug combinations (e.g., sirolimus plus dactinomycin, mercaptopurine plus melatonin, and toremifene plus emodin) captured by the “Complementary Exposure” pattern: the targets of the drugs both hit the HCoV–host subnetwork, but target separate neighborhoods in the human interactome network. In summary, this study offers powerful network-based methodologies for rapid identification of candidate repurposable drugs and potential drug combinations targeting 2019-nCoV/SARS-CoV-2.

    Zhou, Y., Hou, Y., Shen, J. et al. Network-based drug repurposing for novel coronavirus 2019-nCoV/SARS-CoV-2. Cell Discov 6, 14 (2020).

    It’s safe. Bodies have had melatonin in them since long before we were human. We’re talking about the smallest tablet you can even buy at a supplement store! That’s a physiologic range. Why not do it and recommend it to those you love also?

    And if anyone asks, tell them Doctor Richard Neel said it’s a good idea! (see the March 20th article on KTSA’s website entitled “Area Doctor offers simple suggestion to help with COVID-19 recovery” by Don Morgan).

    Melatonin. It does a [virally infected] body good.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  334. This idea that chloroquine “must be put through rigorous clinical trials” doesn’t pass muster with me as regards compassionate use exemptions. If our government is desperate enough to flatten the curve to commit economic suicide, making a compassionate use exemption for chloroquine strikes me as much less drastic.

    Gryph (08c844)

  335. One thing I don’t understand is, the President has declared a national emergency, likened this to a war repeatedly and called himself a “Wartime President.” he’s serious. This is serious. If this were an actual war, people wouldn’t be calling shelter in place or closing non-essential businesses extreme or draconian. This is likely to get worse before it gets better. But I think it will get better, and we will bounce back.

    I’m optimistic about chloroquine, based on anecdotal stories I heard about it even before Trump started talking about it. There was some young doc in NJ who said it saved his life.

    Sorry for the apparently impending loss of your job Gryph. That sounds bad. I hope you find something as good or better to replace it.

    JRH (52aed3)

  336. One thing I don’t understand is, the President has declared a national emergency, likened this to a war repeatedly and called himself a “Wartime President.” he’s serious.

    I don’t want to be in this war. Can I get a couple of college deferments and a 4-F for bone spurs?

    nk (1d9030)

  337. nk (1d9030) — 3/24/2020 @ 5:31 am

    I don’t want to be in this war. Can I get a couple of college deferments and a 4-F for bone spurs?

    The only thing you need to do to avoid the war is avoid old people and hospitals. Otherwise, go about your life like you did before you ever heard of covid? Enough people here have explained how anything else is panic that it has to be true.

    frosty (f27e97)

  338. If this is a war, it’ll be the only war anyone ever won by sitting on their asses at home doing nothing.

    Gryph (08c844)

  339. Pestilence, war, famine …. I forgot that the other subset Trump needs to pander to are the evangelicals.

    nk (1d9030)

  340. Subset of crazy.

    nk (1d9030)

  341. 295 – POTUS didn’t promote a fish tank algaecide that had one ingredient amongst a multitude of industrial chemicals that shared a portion of the name of a possible treatment for COVID-19.

    Therefore it’s highly relevant that these people weren’t the sharpest tools in the shed since the vast, vast majority of mankind would never consider ingesting chemicals used to control water quality in an aquarium. They lack something all the rest of us who didn’t ingest the algaecide have – common sense.

    I double down on my Darwin Award recommendation. I do feel compassion that they somehow missed a simple rule of life 99.99999999999% of humans get – don’t ingest pesticides!

    Mo Hawk (6c01b3)

  342. Do you take rat poison for blood thinner because there’s a shortage of aspirin or coumadin? What if POTUS talked about aspirin or coumadin?

    Fact is, common sense says that you don’t take medical advise from politicians, especially since we *know* Trump isn’t medical expert.

    Being POTUS doesn’t make you a medical expert.

    Being POTUS does’t make you an expert-anything.

    Is that where we really at? Or maybe some of ya’lls animus towards Trump is clouding this?

    whembly (fd57f6)

  343. Patt – I’m not angry or resentful that you went for a drive to a park you like.

    I am having a bit fun tho because of how you responded earlier.

    I’m amused that you declared extended moderation to a commenter who seemed to understand the spirit of what a ‘Shelter In Place’ policy actually means better than you or state officials who bizarrely not only suggested but actually encouraged people who should be staying close to home to visit state parks. I spent a great deal of my youth at a state park, Huntington State Beach. IMO that suggestion was asinine.

    I’m sure there were more than a few people who soaked in the salt air, the ocean view and sand in their toes and thought ‘Not bad for house arrest’, or however you phrased it.

    In this thread and the previous one where I told you I thought your one hour drive was excessive, I don’t feel I exhibited any anger at all, but surely less than you did to people who suggested you might have done something that wasn’t worth celebrating.

    So Munroe understands the Governor’s order better than his own office does. Your comment still reeks of an accusation that I did something wrong. And I didn’t.

    I’m delaying doing my “Respite 2″ post precisely because I now feel that I have to draft a separate section for people like you and Munroe, to show chapter and verse (as I did in the comment thread) how I did nothing wrong.

    As for you, I’m considering amusing you further by moderating you too. It pisses me off to be accused of violating an order that I did not violate. I don’t need to spend my time refuting people who lob false accusations like that. I’d much rather they get the hell off my blog.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  344. 345. Let’s do the math here. “Shelter-in-place” is, by definition, seeking safety by remaining inside a building. Generally in the case of active shooters, a shelter-in-place order constitutes essentially being told: “Stay where you are and don’t move until you are told to.”

    I think the characterization of social distancing orders as “shelter-in-place” is rather poor and inapt for that very reason. If it’s not an order to hunker down at home until you are told you can come out, people can be forgiven for thinking that’s what it is supposed to be. While I don’t think you violated the letter of the rule, I do think that Governor Noisome is among the worst political preeners of the 50 state governors, and unless and until he grows a large enough pair to start enforcing his orders with fines and arrests, you won’t be happy with the outcomes. Too many people out there “like me.” 😉

    Gryph (08c844)

  345. While I don’t think you violated the letter of the rule

    …or its spirit.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  346. 347. Then it shouldn’t be called shelter-in-place. By anyone. Get used to the cringe of seeing large groups of people congregate. It’ll keep happening until the government cracks down.

    Gryph (08c844)

  347. I do agree that it is badly worded, and taken literally on its own (without all the accompanying guidance) could even be interpreted to prevent you from walking your dog up the street. But there is all the accompanying guidance, and it permits all kinds of things that hardly amount to “house arrest.”

    And it’s possible to practice social distancing responsibly without being under house arrest.

    (It’s also possible to contract the coronavirus while doing your best to socially distance!)

    Patterico (115b1f)

  348. 347. Then it shouldn’t be called shelter-in-place. By anyone.

    I agree with that. I use the term only ironically, because that’s not what it is.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  349. I don’t think Patterico violated either the letter or spirit of the rule either. However, with the major media CNN overdramatizing the problem:

    What is annoying is that the pictures in the CNN articles overdramatize the problem.
    —Patterico

    I think a strong case can be made that Munroe’s offending comment was made in good faith based on a misapprehension that a reasonable person could have had. Patterico has a background enabling him to more easily read and understand rules/laws directly. Most people are getting info from the media during this crisis.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  350. 351. For better or worse, I stand firm in my mistrust of government on principle, and especially government diktat. Let’s start clearing the air right now. We can stop referring to it as “shelter in place order” or “stay at home order” and call it what it is: “social distancing recommendations.”

    Gryph (08c844)

  351. I’m trying to think if I’ve been within six feet of nine other people in the last week. I’m pretty sure I haven’t, but it’s not something I worry about too much. I’m a nerd. Social distancing comes naturally to me.

    Gryph (08c844)

  352. Munroe: taken in by CNN! Hooda thunk it

    Patterico (115b1f)

  353. (It’s also possible to contract the coronavirus while doing your best to socially distance!)

    Indeed. I was a bit taken aback when the local stores no longer provided hand sanitizer for the grocery carts. They’d run out, too. Then there is the knowledge that the virus can linger on plastic for quite some time. Do I wash every container I bring home?

    This seems to be a rather hardy little virus. While they occur in nature (e.g. smallpox), persistent and highly communicable agents smack of engineering. Probably just paranoia on my part.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  354. The FN PS90 is a great aid to social distancing and fits under an overcoat. Just sayin’.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  355. Gryph (08c844) — 3/24/2020 @ 8:46 am

    Get used to the cringe of seeing large groups of people congregate. It’ll keep happening until the government cracks down.

    I give it another week. Then the numbers will be obvious to almost everyone and anyone with the ability to do so will exercise some self-control.

    frosty (f27e97)

  356. As for the letter or spirit of the order, I have been trying to get an employee (who is still getting paid) to go into the office to mail a check, by herself, but she thinks the order means she can’t.

    I don’t really blame the governor though, most of the disinformation that people get comes from the news media’s inability to get their facts right.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  357. Heh! My daughter and her mother still live in a town which is basically a park with houses. It is bordered by a forest preserve and marshlands, a river runs though it, and its high school has a zoo on its campus. (A 216 acre, open space concept, nationally known zoo.) The governor’s lock-down order went into effect Saturday evening at 5:00. On Sunday morning, everybody was out and walking around. The churches, restaurants, cafes, library were all closed.

    This lock-down ain’t gonna last.

    nk (1d9030)

  358. Kevin M @355-

    Indeed. I was a bit taken aback when the local stores no longer provided hand sanitizer for the grocery carts. They’d run out, too. Then there is the knowledge that the virus can linger on plastic for quite some time. Do I wash every container I bring home?

    This seems to be a rather hardy little virus. While they occur in nature (e.g. smallpox), persistent and highly communicable agents smack of engineering. Probably just paranoia on my part.

    Coronavirus Traces Lingered in Vacated Cruise Cabins for 17 Days

    Traces of new coronavirus were found on surfaces in cruise-ship cabins for as many as 17 days after passengers left, researchers said, though it wasn’t possible to determine whether they caused any infections.

    Researchers looked at the rooms of infected passengers aboard the Diamond Princess, both those who showed symptoms and those who didn’t, according to a study Monday in the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.
    ……
    A previous analysis found that the virus remained viable on plastic and stainless steel for up to three days, although levels fell dramatically over time. It was less stable on copper, where no viable virus was found after 4 hours, and cardboard, which was clean after 24 hours, according to the report in the New England Journal of Medicine. …..

    You can’t be too paranoid these days ……

    rip mudock (d2a2a8)

  359. Link to CDC Report.

    rip mudock (d2a2a8)

  360. The French study has big flaws and is not a game changer.

    DRJ (15874d)

  361. Hopefully after losing your sense of smell, you don’t lose your sense of humor when contracting this virus

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  362. FFS… the French study should be of interest, whether “game changer” or not, no?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  363. “ As for you, I’m considering amusing you further by moderating you too. It pisses me off to be accused of violating an order that I did not violate. I don’t need to spend my time refuting people who lob false accusations like that.”

    Violating an order sounds pretty strong but I certainly thought you made a mistake driving so far.
    And I still can’t really see how you can accuse me of anger and resentment when my posts contained examples of neither. Is that also a false accusation? I clearly stated that encouraging trips to state parks was asinine but it clearly helps your case that you weren’t violating the order. You were actually following government suggestions, however idiotic, which is what I said earlier.

    Resorting to profanity (in an early response where you also labeled me ‘nasty’) and projecting seems more a product of anger than anything I said.

    I also said nothing about people congregating closely together, my comments were strictly related to driving an hour across town when IMO the idea and spirit of the lockdown clearly meant for folks to stay close to home if not working in an essential occupation. You weren’t helped by the fact that some idiotic officials couldn’t see that encouraging trips to state parks would result in people doing exactly what you did, driving quite a distance to enjoy the outdoors, which was part of the reason the beaches were so crowded.

    In the original thread all I said was that driving an hour to get outdoors was ‘excessive’. IIRC you are in RPV and there are all sorts of outdoor options nearby. Once again considering the lockdown an hour drive seemed excessive.

    I also don’t agree with delaying your picture post. Let’s see how nice it was out there.

    Lastly, and I guess most significant, are you going to drive an hour to go hiking again during the lockdown or not?
    _

    harkin (b64479)

  364. harkin, people are driving a lot less now and thus gasoline stocks do not seem to be a problem at present.

    I don’t understand the problem with driving to a park, as long as you’re allowed to be there and being there is wise. You’re not likely to catch COVID-19 during the drive (that said, in the city, I am in fact keeping the window down, in case pedestrians or other drivers are very nearby).

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  365. *keeping my window up

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  366. Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/24/2020 @ 9:32 am

    I was typing up basically the same question. Parks near me closed down everything except the walking paths but it seems like taking a walk or a hike is a good way to balance out the isolation.

    frosty (f27e97)

  367. Also – if you don’t like the term ‘Shelter In Place’, maybe don’t link to an article that calls it exactly that or says “California Gov. Gavin Newsom issued a shelter in place order directing the state’s nearly 40 million residents to stay home beginning March 20“ in comment #1.

    “ harkin, people are driving a lot less now and thus gasoline stocks do not seem to be a problem at present. I don’t understand the problem with driving to a park, as long as you’re allowed to be there”

    I even said this. Some folks in denser areas may need to drive a few miles to get to available space.

    harkin (b64479)

  368. I even said this. Some folks in denser areas may need to drive a few miles to get to available space.

    OK.

    Lastly, and I guess most significant, are you going to drive an hour to go hiking again during the lockdown or not?

    So I assume you’re just asking out of curiosity because you think it’s a good idea for the reason you said above?

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  369. DRJ (15874d) — 3/24/2020 @ 9:18 am

    Thank you for that link, DRJ. It sheds much light on why DR.Fauci characterized the French study as “anecdotal.” He was being very kind, I think.

    felipe (023cc9)

  370. harkin,

    These are stressful times. For me, coming here is a nice relief that not unlike taking a walk (although not as healthy). Patterico is our host. He is informative and entertaining. He pays for this website and fixes things that go wrong, and it takes time, money and effort to do those things. I don’t see anyone here that can do that as well as he does, let alone for years.

    In return, it is common decency and good sense not to deliberately pick a fight with him, and that seems to be what you are doing. My guess is the issue with Munroe was your trigger, but I don’t care what it was. You can ask why he wanted to go to a park when people have been asked to shelter in place, and that woukd have led to a discussion of what these orders actually say. Everyone is interested in that because we all are dealing with them or soon will. It is good to talk about what they mean.

    Or you can keep goading Patterico. Your call.

    DRJ (15874d)

  371. My wife just told me we should use this as an opportunity to “kill all the goddamn bats… what are they good for?”

    Bats!
    Good God, y’all
    What are they good for?
    Absolutely nothin’

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  372. I completely agree, felipe.

    DRJ (15874d)

  373. To all medical professionals around the world:

    My name is Dr. Zev Zelenko and I practice medicine in Monroe, NY. For the last 16 years, I have cared for approximately 75% of the adult population of Kiryas Joel, which is a very close knit community of approximately 35,000 people in which the infection spread rapidly and unchecked prior to the imposition of social distancing.

    As of today my team has tested approximately 200 people from this community for Covid-19, and 65% of the results have been positive. If extrapolated to the entire community, that means more than 20,000 people are infected at the present time. Of this group, I estimate that there are 1500 patients who are in the high-risk category (i.e. >60, immunocompromised, comorbidities, etc).
    Given the urgency of the situation, I developed the following treatment protocol in the pre-hospital setting and have seen only positive results:

    1. Any patient with shortness of breath regardless of age is treated.
    2. Any patient in the high-risk category even with just mild symptoms is treated.
    3. Young, healthy and low risk patients even with symptoms are not treated (unless their circumstances change and they fall into category 1 or 2).

    My out-patient treatment regimen is as follows:

    1. Hydroxychloroquine 200mg twice a day for 5 days
    2. Azithromycin 500mg once a day for 5 days
    3. Zinc sulfate 220mg once a day for 5 days

    The rationale for my treatment plan is as follows. I combined the data available from China and South Korea with the recent study published from France (sites available on request). We know that hydroxychloroquine helps Zinc enter the cell. We know that Zinc slows viral replication within the cell. Regarding the use of azithromycin, I postulate it prevents secondary bacterial infections.
    These three drugs are well known and usually well tolerated, hence the risk to the patient is low.
    Since last Thursday, my team has treated approximately 350 patients in Kiryas Joel and another 150 patients in other areas of New York with the above regimen.

    Of this group and the information provided to me by affiliated medical teams, we have had ZERO deaths, ZERO hospitalizations, and ZERO intubations. In addition, I have not heard of any negative side effects other than approximately 10% of patients with temporary nausea and diarrhea.

    In sum, my urgent recommendation is to initiate treatment in the outpatient setting as soon as possible in accordance with the above. Based on my direct experience, it prevents acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), prevents the need for hospitalization and saves lives.

    With much respect,

    Dr. Zev Zelenko

    cc: President Donald J. Trump; Mr. Mark Meadows, Chief of Staff

    And now he can’t practice this life-saving medicine because of Governor Cuomo’s executive order last night.

    P.S. His regime is exactly the same as my (layperson) recommended anti-viral regime for infected persons, in terms of ingredients, including the zinc, and also in terms of treating patients EARLY.

    P.P.S. Governor Cuomo is going to kill a lot of people.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  374. Hi. My name is Dr. Zev Zelenko and just published a new book on Chassidic and Kabbalistic thought. Please see link….

    Good grief!

    nk (1d9030)

  375. Well, if the self published doctor that have never actually treated it, misquotes the actual anecdotal evidence, has a solution; by all means, let’s abandon science and just do that.

    You and your other sockpuppet’s lies will cost lives, it already has, your lies are dangerous.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  376. Not life saving for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients who can’t get their medicines.

    DRJ (15874d)

  377. $35M for the Kennedy Center!?!?

    Pelosi is our nation’s Khamenei, in that she prizes ideology over the American people.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  378. Put the lime in the coconut
    The lime in the coconut
    Put the lime in the coconut
    Drink it all up

    Put the lime in the coconut
    The lime in the coconut
    Drink it all up
    And call me in the morning

    nk (1d9030)

  379. “ So I assume you’re just asking out of curiosity because you think it’s a good idea for the reason you said above?”

    Sigh – please struggle harder to grasp the concept of ‘a few miles’ and ‘drive an hour’
    __ _

    DRJ – I appreciate Patt’s site very much. I’ve been coming here for years.

    I disagree with the term ‘goading’, and if you can’t see that from every comment I made that contained neither anger nor resentment but just a wee bit of levity as somehow crossing the line then the skin here on one side is much thinner than I previously thought.

    Yes, Patt is the host and for that and the incredible volume of work he puts in he deserves major props. But as a loyal reader and commenter who gives honest opinions I don’t think it’s asking too much to make a point with explanation without being accused of something I did not do or coming from emotions that I in no way exhibited. That should be expected in the honest give-and-take.

    As my grandmother used to say, ‘we get most angry at people when we’re angry at ourselves’. Nerves at this site were frayed long before the virus hit so I will take that into consideration, drop the matter and just look forward to seeing some nice pics of Malibu Canyon (a great place) without the danger of respectful exchange of ideas being mistaken for pulling someone’s chain.

    harkin (b64479)

  380. Violating an order sounds pretty strong but I certainly thought you made a mistake driving so far.
    And I still can’t really see how you can accuse me of anger and resentment when my posts contained examples of neither. Is that also a false accusation? I clearly stated that encouraging trips to state parks was asinine but it clearly helps your case that you weren’t violating the order. You were actually following government suggestions, however idiotic, which is what I said earlier.

    Resorting to profanity (in an early response where you also labeled me ‘nasty’) and projecting seems more a product of anger than anything I said.

    “I have no idea why my stready stream of bullshit accusations appears to be disturbing you so! My, oh my! When all I am doing is unrelentingly leveling unfair accusations, your reaction does seem a trifle exercised!” — the troll known as the “Goader.”

    So I certainly made a mistake in driving so far, even though it put zero people at risk and comports with every sensible person’s notion of social distancing, and sure maybe I was technically complying with a stupid and asinine order but only because it was stupid and asinine.

    Taking you at your word that you will drop the subject, I will forego the vacation. I am, however, up to here with the passive-aggressive goading (as DRJ properly described it) and won’t permit it again. I have enough other things to worry about than having to defend myself against 100% bullshit accusations that I violated the Governor’s order, or that I am violating norms of social distancing by taking a walk in a large state park, or whatever other horseshit you want to throw against the wall.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  381. 383. As long as social distancing remains a recommendation, as long as “shelter in place order” and “stay at home order” remain misnomers, the number of people who don’t take the need for social distancing will continue to gall you. For my part, as I’ve said on this thread and elsewhere, I think following the recommendations hasn’t taken a lot of effort on my part anyway.

    Gryph (08c844)

  382. 383 *…who don’t take the need for social distancing seriously

    Gryph (08c844)

  383. Not life saving for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients who can’t get their medicines.

    DRJ, you know DARN WELl, as you’ve read it more than once, that I advocate a rapid increase in production, including using government authority to make this happen (the Defense Production Act). I’m not saying supply isn’t an issue. I’ve been making the argument for days that it’s a huge issue and we need to prioritize mass producing anti-viral drugs, including chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, because the entire world is going to want them.

    You left that out and I would like to know why.

    MAOA who suggests ≤ 300 mcg melatonin/night (23f793)

  384. MAOA,

    Go back to your original name. Now.

    DRJ (15874d)

  385. Not to pour fuel on the fire, but I encourage everyone to drive maybe 30 minutes a week per car. If you can’t disconnect a terminal on your battery or get use a trickle charger.

    I really enjoy driving through the Texas Hill country and the roads are actually really empty, which is strange for Austin. It’s a good way to unwind.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  386. nk (1d9030) — 3/24/2020 @ 10:04 am

    If you are not familiar with Satmar Hasidism and Kiryas Joel, a little bit og Google will be instructive, and put some perspective on this particular MD.

    Kishnevi (121377)

  387. You left that out and I would like to know why.

    I don’t recall you making that point frequently but I am sure you want more production of these drugs. However, that is not relevant to my point. My point is people who need these drugs are doing without and suffering now because of the panic over coronavirus drugs. Some people with coronavirus might be helped by these drugs but the lupus/arthritis people are being helped and can’t get the product. Maybe does not justify denying those who already need and depend on these drugs.

    DRJ (15874d)

  388. Our roads are empty, too, Dustin. It hasn’t been that way in years. It isn’t worth it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  389. No one suggested denying these drugs to people who need them now. I’ve been advocating a mass ramp-up of their production as our top priority (along with treating people EARLY), aside from possibly masks (to avoid the spread to others and make social distancing easier and more effective), and as a far higher priority than ventilator production (since most people who go on them won’t survive: nonetheless, different types of factories make those than drugs so we should use as many as we need of those too).

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  390. But that is what is happening.

    DRJ (15874d)

  391. Not if my plan was followed. They would be priority 1, but with relatively short-term quantities of drugs on hand for now (some use these long term). Priority 2 would be newly diagnosed COVID-19 cases. Priority 3, advanced COVID-19 cases.

    The point being to order the ramp-up in supply.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

  392. Our roads are empty, too, Dustin. It hasn’t been that way in years. It isn’t worth it.

    DRJ (15874d) — 3/24/2020 @ 2:06 pm

    I imagine I’ll be driving through Lubbock on my way to ABQ in a few months and I don’t look forward to seeing how bad the economic problems are out there. There’s going to be a lot of poverty. We have these oil price crashes, but that’s only one side. It’s too much.

    Still, worth it or not, I really enjoyed driving around with a little music, and I think my car will need to run a little, burn a gallon of gas.

    Dustin (b18b7a)

  393. if you are diagnosed with COVID-19, Dr. Neel says a secret weapon in your response… should be melatonin.

    “Most people know it as a sleep aid but it’s got many anti-oxidant and anti-toxin properties that cancel a lot of the effects of the virus.”

    The amount you should take depends on the severity of your illness.

    He recommends 50 to 100 milligrams, divided into 4 does daily.

    Dr. Neel says melatonin has been used to combat other viral diseases including SARS and West Nile Virus.

    He says melatonin isn’t going to prevent you from getting COVID-19 but will certainly help improve your health if you are diagnosed.

    Dr. Neel served over 20 years as a Chief Flight Surgeon in the U.S. Air Force before his retirement as a Colonel. He lived in Europe for eight years serving as personal physician for Ambassadors, General Officers and Senior State Department Personnel.

    He was deployed for combat operations in the Middle East and Bosnia. He has over a thousand hours of flying time in jet fighters, bombers and helicopters.

    His many decorations include an Air Medal for assisting in the helicopter rescue of 32 people from a sinking tanker during a North Atlantic Hurricane.

    He led emergency response teams for NASA space shuttle emergency landing sites in Spain, Morocco and The Gambia.

    On September 11, 2001 he led an Air Force Emergency Team at the Pentagon.

    Excerpted from “Area Doctor offers simple suggestion to help in COVID-19 recovery”

    He wasn’t my original or even best source for this, but my money is on the good Colonel.

    Make America Ordered Again (23f793)

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