Patterico's Pontifications

10/9/2015

Applying Obama’s Lecture on Mass Shootings to His Own Policy of Killing Innocent People

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:59 pm



I don’t agree with this video’s point of view in its entirety. Trying to kill terrorists and killing innocent people in the process is not the same as a maniac deliberately killing innocent people. But the recent Doctors Without Borders slaughter tells me that Obama doesn’t begin to put in the time, care, and effort he should to make sure innocents don’t die in the process. It should be one of the most important things he does, and he acts like it’s not even his job. That’s what you should keep in mind as you watch this very effective argument of juxtaposed images.

110 Responses to “Applying Obama’s Lecture on Mass Shootings to His Own Policy of Killing Innocent People”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (fecd9b)

  2. Again… has Sissy Bi+ch One left Oregon yet?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  3. “I hope that I don’t have to come out again during my tenure as president to offer my condolences…”

    Mr. President, I know a way to guarantee it. Resign.

    aunursa (be35b6)

  4. Being Commander in Chief means the buck stops here… military careers have been ruined when the XO rams the aircraft carrier into the garbage scow while the CO is asleep.
    If you are going to blame the military for f… ing up, then you need to blame yourself, not the brass.
    A community organizer might not get this, but a business owner does… the employees underneath me are my responsibility… no one cares if I had the runs, or if my mom dies… they do care that our task was not executed properly, and they will complain and withhold payment.

    steveg (fed1c9)

  5. obama sucks

    mg (31009b)

  6. that’s different, you racist!

    #duh

    redc1c4 (1371a8)

  7. His middle name might as well be ‘writing checks his butt can’t cash’.

    East Bay Jay (c65ac0)

  8. Our esteemed host wrote:

    But the recent Doctors Without Borders slaughter tells me that Obama doesn’t begin to put in the time, care, and effort he should to make sure innocents don’t die in the process. It should be one of the most important things he does, and he acts like it’s not even his job.

    And it isn’t his job.

    I remember how President Johnson and the holdovers from “The Best and the Brightest” tried to micromanage the Vietnam war from the White House, going over bombing targets and the like; the last thing we need is President Obama, who’s even dumber than Lyndon Johnson, going over bombing targets to make sure that there are no civilians in the way. That’s the job of the military commanders in the theater of operation.

    Does anyone think that President Roosevelt was interfering in those decisions during World War II?

    Yeah, it’s a shame that the Doctors Without Borders were killed by an air strike called down on the wrong target, but they volunteered to go work in a war zone. They knew the risks, and took their chances anyway. If they weren’t quite behaving like Rachel Corrie, they were still placing themselves in harm’s way.

    War isn’t pretty, and a lot of non-combatants die in wars, some intentionally, some as “collateral damage, and some by mistake. We did not worry, and should not have worried, that a lot of basically innocent Germans and Japanese were killed because they lived too near railway depots and munitions factories, because we did what we had to do to win that war with the minimum number of American casualties.

    We have forgotten what it takes to win wars, which is part of why we don’t seem to win them any more. When General Curtis E LeMay was planning the incendiary attacks on Tokyo and Yokohama, he wasn’t doing it because he liked burning women and children to death, but because he wanted to degrade the Japanese’s ability to resist the invasion of Honshu that we thought would be necessary. Now, we fret over an eight-year-old boy being killed while attacking Islamist fighters, and the result is we don’t attack the Islamist fighters.

    The historian Dana (f6a568)

  9. “I hope that I don’t have to come out again during my tenure as president to offer my condolences…”

    This made my blood run cold. It sounded as though he were certain he would, indeed, be there again.

    creeper (9a0fe6)

  10. As an old warrior I’d like to say if you want to win a war you kill the enemy army, navy, air force, men, women, children, pets and farm animals and do it all while blowing up their factories, bridges, roads, railways, airports, buildings, houses, churches, hospitals, schools and brothels. Failure to commit to doing this you are allowing your own people to die so as not to harm the enemy’s. That’s what they did to us in Nam. That would make you a traitor in my book.

    It would be good to look at the ruins of the cities from Germany and Japan from WWII, the last war we won. Nothing left but rubble and death. That’s how you win a war and if you’re not ready to do that step back and let someone dedicated to victory take charge. But what the Obamaites are doing is causing needless death to our people by prolonging a fight I could finish within a week. Then again, if any of the wussies in the current administration heard a gun go off they’d crap themselves.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  11. Russia has gotten more done against ISIS in a couple of weeks than the United States has managed in a year. Do you think that Vladimir Putin is going to be out there, shedding a tear for any of the innocents who happened to get in the way?

    The coldly realistic Dana (f6a568)

  12. Let’s politicize this:

    http://lonelyconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Politicize-600-LI.jpg

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  13. What would you expect from a nihilist crack whore sporting a sham wedding ring bearing the inscription “There is no god but Allah’ except evil all of the time?

    Beuller?

    DNF (077971)

  14. Have to go with Hoagie and adjectival Dana on this. It’s not the President’s job to personally pick targets or ensure that they are the right ones; and it’s better that he do neither.

    These are wars I don’t think we have any business fighting, mind you. I don’t think we had business fighting most of those we fought.

    Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.

    She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. The frontlet upon her brows would no longer beam with the ineffable splendor of freedom and independence; but in its stead would soon be substituted an imperial diadem, flashing in false and tarnished lustre the murky radiance of dominion and power. She might become the dictatress of the world: she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit.

    Gabriel Hanna (2ca835)

  15. As your link says about the Deep State, DNF

    And then, it exports things that reinforce the Deep State, including wars, fiat currency, and destructive policies. This is unsustainable simply because nothing of value comes out of the city.

    Out of the city of Washington, DC still carts of dung.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  16. 16. The article makes a number of points in one place that some of us have made over recent months.

    Gird yer loins.

    DNF (077971)

  17. It may not be a President’s job but Obama has made drone-targeting his job, and it has been since the first day of his Presidency. Remember when we worried about whether the President has authority to kill Americans? How naive we were. Obama was way beyond that. This looks like what his Administration calls a “signature strike” — an authorized crowd killing.

    The link is from 2012. Imagine what the Administration has dreamed up since then.

    DRJ (521990)

  18. Sorry. The link is from 2013, not 2012.

    DRJ (521990)

  19. Wasn’t it 2013 — after his election — when Obama said he could be more flexible regarding foreign policy and war?

    DRJ (521990)

  20. The consensus seems to be that this has to be an accident because no President would do this intentiinally. That’s an interesting assumption given Obama’s “signature strike” doctrine.

    DRJ (521990)

  21. I hope the Administration is simply so inept, lazy and unorganized that they had no idea this was a hospital.

    DRJ (521990)

  22. 10. W. was beguiled by compassion and Rumsfeld into leaving the war indecided just as H.W. had.

    DNF (077971)

  23. 22. As tho we expect the Adversary to be a respecter of men, that his anointed be cooly efficient and prudent?

    DNF (077971)

  24. DNF,

    I may hope it but that doesn’t mean I believe it.

    DRJ (521990)

  25. Same old crap as Vietnam. A half-assed army of occupation striking out at random like a rattler with a broken back. Wasting American lives and innocent native lives; conducting an occasional effective military operation only by accident. The enemy winning just by staying in the fight until we get tired and bug out.

    nk (dbc370)

  26. The enemy winning just by staying in the fight until we get tired and bug out.

    I don’t know where in Vietnam you fought, nk, but where I was nobody got tired and bugged out. We were ordered out by the same cowards who ordered us in. Unfortunately while I was killing communists in Nam their fellow communists opened a second front in America and called it the “peace movement”. It wasn’t. It was a surrender to the commies movement, pure and simple. Full of cowards, SJW’s, red diaper babies and white guilt types and led by the Friends of Obama. You know, the same guys who now live tenured jobs at academia teaching your children to hate America even more than even they do while resting on their laurels of privilege and retire millionaires on super-bucks from taxpayers. These pigs caused the death of millions of Asian allies and I knew many of them. The men I fought with and the ladies I slept with, all dead because they trusted the United States. Makes me feel all warm and patriotic to know what our country did. I know Bill Ayres, the Weathermen, the SDS, the Black Panthers and Obama get all fuzzy reminiscing the good ole’ days. They’ve Fundamentally Transformed the United States to the point where the great bastion of Free Market, Judeo Christian, Constitutional self government is running a f^cking socialist for resident. Wow! How proud am I to be an American? Ask me after this, perhaps final election.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  27. BTW, Jimmy Carter, among all his other great accomplishments, pardoned the draft dodgers and those that fled to Canada while the people of America spit on and slandered the soldiers who fought. So the cowards and the “takers” get recognition while the brave and the givers get zero. Some just got a body bag. Leftism is a gift that keeps on giving.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  28. The premise of this article is very wrong. We have already lost hundreds of troops due to overly restrictive rules protecting civilians. We don’t fight wars anymore, we employ lawyers to tell our troops how not to fight wars. Is it any wonder that we don’t win?

    John Moore (608ffa)

  29. You called it, John Moore. The term “Rules of Engagement” make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. All that means is some government lawyer, safe in his lair, has decided at what point the number of U.S. deaths translates into use of deadly force. And the Rules are always ambiguous enough that if the sh!t hits the fan culpability stops on the battlefield and never makes its way back to said lawyer. Just like in civilian life!

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  30. You guys have a point. That’s how the Germans and the Japanese won WWII. Because they killed more civilian non-combatants than they killed soldiers. And the Allies lost because we, like fools, went after military and strategic targets. If only we had more My Lais, we would have won in Vietnam too.

    nk (dbc370)

  31. “Your job is not to die for your country. Your job is to make the guy on the other side die for his country!”

    Did Patton actually say that? (Or close to it. The version I heard was a bit more colorful.)

    kishnevi (9cb6b5)

  32. Remember when we worried about whether the President has authority to kill Americans? How naive we were. Obama was way beyond that.

    He’s such a nonsensical, if not deranged, type of liberal that presumably stereotypical positions he could take — such as anti-combat isolationism or anti-greed capitalism — are instead corrupted into something that can be called the worst of both worlds. That has been signified to me for over 5 years by the following commentary.

    weeklystandard.com, William Kristol, February 2010:

    Paul Krugman is, I think, right to be amazed by Obama’s embrace of the $17 million bonus given to JPMorgan Chase Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon and the $9 million issued to Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein.

    If Obama’s idea of moving to the middle politically is to embrace Wall Street’s too-big-to-fail banks, he’s crazy. Usually Republicans are the party of Big Business and Democrats of Big Government, and the public’s hostility to both more or less evens the politics out. But if Obama now becomes the spokesman for Big Government intrusiveness and the apologist for Big Business irresponsibility all at once–good luck with that.

    And look at the tone-deafness of Obama’s comments about the bonuses: “President Barack Obama said he doesn’t ‘begrudge’ the $17 million bonus awarded to JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon or the $9 million issued to Goldman Sachs Group Inc. CEO Lloyd Blankfein, noting that some athletes take home more pay…’

    [A]s Krugman points out, “irresponsible behavior by baseball players hasn’t brought the world economy to the brink of collapse.” Nor has the federal government spent billions (trillions?) bailing out baseball owners after they signed foolish contracts. Nor does it guarantee baseball owners’–or players’–future solvency.

    Obama will always be an ugly, indelible skid mark in the history of the US presidency, and there’s no turning back.

    Mark (f713e4)

  33. Don’t come off like an idiot, nk. In WWII the Allies killed more non combatants than soldiers also. The Germans were on a final solution binge which included Jews, Slavs, Russians and just about anyone else they came across. The Japanese had a vendetta against the Chinese and murdered them by the hundreds of thousands. The My Lai massacre was not policy, you know it, stop acting stupid. My point is that in order to win you must be ready to thoroughly destroy the enemy’s willingness to fight. That means destroy everything. Make continued resistance too dear.

    Your sarcasm and lack of experience are showing a total ignorance of the cost of war and the personal price of battle. You sound like an ungrateful child. And we could have won in Vietnam if we didn’t have ungrateful children on the home front. Always sarcastic and always ready to criticize but never ready to pick up a weapon and march toward the enemy. Save you righteous indignation for the real barbarians. You’re gonna need it because they do kill everybody as we’ve seen all over the world even today in Turkey. The moslems will cut off your head and shove it up your butt, nk. Same with your family. And they’ll do it with the women and children feeding and clothing them, bringing them weapons and supplying ammunition.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  34. Trying to apply Obama’s own policies to him will quickly get you labeled as a “racist.”

    ScienceABC123 (9f67d3)

  35. @nk:That’s how the Germans and the Japanese won WWII. Because they killed more civilian non-combatants than they killed soldiers.

    With all respect, if you think the Western Allies did not deliberately target civilians in WWII, you haven’t learned much about it. (I’m not talking about Russia. The Soviets of course were no better than the Germans or Japanese as far as war crimes went.)

    The American and British forces killed 69,000 civilians in bombing raids. In France. The country we were liberating.

    In 1944 and 1945, American soldiers raped 3500 civilians. In France. The country we were liberating.

    You can imagine what it was like in the countries we were at war with. Japan and Germany were reduced to bone-flecked ash and there was serious talk of never allowing them anything but agriculture after the war.

    At the time nobody felt too damned bad about it, and I think they were right; those were not wars that the West sought, in fact we did terrible things in trying to avoid them.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  36. Mr. nk is right it’s time for failmerica to stop making an ass out of itself in afghanistan

    you’re not impressing anyone you’re just spending a crapload of money for absolutely no strategic purpose and getting a crapload of people killed doing it

    FAIL.

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  37. Have to go with Hoagie and adjectival Dana on this. It’s not the President’s job to personally pick targets or ensure that they are the right ones; and it’s better that he do neither.

    I never said he has to personally pick targets or personally ensure that the targets are the right ones. I said he needs to put in the time, care, and effort he should to make sure innocents don’t die in the process of taking out terrorists. This includes ensuring that communication exists between organizations like Doctors Without Borders and the chain of command responsible for making determinations of bombing targets. This man is giving orders that can take away the lives of innocent people and it’s not enough to say “hey this is war” because we are always at war, all the time, constantly.

    Patterico (fecd9b)

  38. Obama should be drone striking the neo-con artists who got us in the is mess in the middle east!

    adam smith (2e0a62)

  39. what would that accomplish?

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  40. kipling and even conan doyle, suggest the northwest frontier, was a long hard slog, even when zaphod pretended to be engaged, like in the early days in yemen, one had screwups like the al majala incident, which was focused on a minor AQAP figure, al Kazemi, but had high collateral damage,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  41. you have to look for this clip, they don’t advertise it,

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260402/homeland-speech-tells-it-it-about-isis-mark-tapson

    narciso (ee1f88)

  42. Patterico, the very idea that “he needs to put in the time, care, and effort he should to make sure innocents don’t die in the process of taking out terrorists” is a waste of time and could prove deadly for Americans. This enemy in particular, moslem terrorists, hide among the “innocents” (as you call them) deliberately knowing it can cause the less-warlike among us (ahem) to delay or abort an attack. As one of the few here who actually fought on a battlefield I would not hesitate to call in a strike or an attack on known hostiles regardless of the surroundings. Because if I have a chance to kill them today and don’t and they kill you tomorrow I’m to blame. Also I personally watched as women and children aided the enemy. Don’t be fooled, it’s common practice everywhere, even here. We bombed cities and factories all over Europe and Japan and they were full of old people and women doing the work the men did before they were in uniform. You all do recall the WTC bombing? That was civilians, and if the moslems could they’d nuke us.

    The President, especially this dopey President has no experience, knowledge or expertise in battlefield tactics and is wholly unequipped to determine targets of value. All this clown would do is make it harder to eliminate hostiles and probably cause us more casualties. And quite frankly, I don’t have much faith in our current crop of generals who seem to rise through the ranks on political connections rather than battlefield victories.

    And there is a word Americans must once again get used to saying: Victory. Since the leftists took over all they want to do is compromise and apologize to our enemies. Yes, Victory is not just a great beer from Downingtown, PA it’s the goal of war.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  43. @Patterico: Still with the Rev’m on this. A President’s job is to set goals and direction.

    it’s not enough to say “hey this is war” because we are always at war, all the time, constantly.

    Well, there’s the problem, we shouldn’t be at war so much. Yemen and Syria are completely wars of choice and it’s long been time we were out of Afghanistan for all we could ever expect to accomplish there.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  44. well Afghanistan was originally our campaign of neccesity, I regard them as different theatres of operation, Yemen predates because of the USS Cole, another canary in the coal mine,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  45. “Shouldn’t be at war so much”

    We may be thoroughly tired of war but war is hardly begun with us.

    DNF (4a9f41)

  46. Keep an eye peeled on China, shy 50 million women of marriageable age, as we review by sea their posts in the Spratlys, as 80% of the citizenry’s savings are sunk in a crashing property bubble.

    The PRC is looking to divert the people’s gaze.

    DNF (4a9f41)

  47. @DNF:war is hardly begun with us.

    That’s not serious. The only Americans killed since 9/11 are the ones we’ve sent into harm’s way.

    There’s nothing Muslims can do to us if we had real security at airports, instead of theater. If we didn’t give them visas to come here they couldn’t get at us any other way. They don’t have a navy.

    China is a serious threat now, but in 25 years their population will be very old, and they’ve already torpedoed their demographics permanently with the one-child policy. And again, they don;t have much a navy.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  48. 48. Objects in your mirror are half again closer than they appear.

    DNF (4a9f41)

  49. While it is peculiar to paint a target on your own back, it is immoral to paint one on other people. At the very least, eligible victims should not advertise they are low risk targets.

    Hey, Mr. Pro-choice in Chief, what do you have to say about mass killings of wholly innocent human lives by the abortion industry and cannibalism of wholly innocent human lives by the Planned Parenthood corporation?

    What of the Obama-created progressive instability to cross three continents: Africa, Asia, and Europe, and your social activists’ anti-native immigration policies, that cause mass dislocation, create ghettos, leave behind a wasteland, and, presumably, compensate for the mass killings promoted by your pro-choice cult?

    n.n (6e4f6d)

  50. @DNF: So what would the world have to look like before you decided we didn’t need to intervene in foreign countries?

    I am not opposed to a strong national defense; I am very much for it. I simply do not see how killing foreigners in foreign countries makes our defenses stronger. It makes us weaker. It costs money and saps our will for real threats and the people we supposedly help end up hating us or taking us for granted.

    She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  51. Her glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of mind. She has a spear and a shield; but the motto upon her shield is Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice.

    We couldn’t rest content with that; we were tempted and we fell. We won’t recover by doing more of the same.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  52. I’d rather fight jihadis in their countries instead of ours.

    DRJ (521990)

  53. Speaking of cognitive dissonance or just plain crazy talk, check out today’s headline from the LA Times:

    “In wake of school shootings, Gov. Jerry Brown bans concealed guns on California campuses.”

    So after shootings by madmen who possessed guns legally and managed to thereby killed innocent students, lulled into a feeling of safety by the lies of school administrators, Gov. Moonbeam is now doubling down and banning guns. Again.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  54. Gabriel, well, the confluence of our thoughts didn’t last all that long. Imagine a world where Adolf ruled from the French coast to Manchuria, and then south to the tip of Africa, and Japan ruled south from Manchuria and east to Hawaii. India would be its own little hell hole. And in South America, Adolf and the Co-Prosperity Sphere would be competing for the favors of twenty little tin-pot dictators, each ruling by means of weapons and intelligence systems provided by the Axis partners/competitors. And Central America and Mexico would be in constant states of revolt. Queen Elizabeth would preside over Ontario and the western provinces, Australia would have fallen to Japan, and Ireland would have allied with Hitler to choke the UK into submission. And once it was stripped of its industry, the UK wasn’t worth the trouble of garrisoning given Ireland’s enthusiastic cooperation in providing troops to police the island kingdom. Eastern Canada would have just allied itself to Adolf. We’d be tucked away with FDR’s entitlements, ruled by our own home-grown goons. And the news, still on AM radios because TV was never seen as a useful tool of the State, would reassure us that the landing of ten divisions of SS killers in Cuba was nothing to concern us. Nor was the landing of another twenty divisions in Newfoundland, nor 40 divisions in Ensenada. Our Army of 15 divisions, armed with Springfield rifles and highly reliable biplanes, with troops trained on wooden replicas of the Springfields to save on the expense of ammunition, would be more than able to repel Adolf.

    Yes, indeed, Lady Liberty can safely rest on her fat, arrogant ass, protected by two vast oceans and a feckless bureaucracy that has bled the country dry. No need for patriots, our continued success is assured by geography. And our intellectual myopia.

    BobStewartatHome (10a570)

  55. @DRJ:I’d rather fight jihadis in their countries instead of ours.

    False choice. They wouldn’t be in ours at all if we didn’t invite them in, and we wouldn’t have to fight in theirs if we didn’t put ourselves there.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  56. narciso, I like Stirling when leavened with a bit of David Drake, as in the Raj Whitehall series. I also enjoy Christopher Nuttall, who is a prodigious writer, and he seems to be getting better. But my favorite is David Drake for reasons I am still discovering. Alternate histories, as in my #54, haven’t been a favorite. Elizabeth Moon wrote a neat short story suggesting how a few decisions by British commanders in the Mediterranean at the outbreak of WWI could have (plausibly) kept the Ottoman Empire on the side lines (which would have likely kept the Russians from falling to revolution and communism.) I like that sort of story since it highlights a pivotal moment in history that is largely overlooked. But my real love is solid history. Martin Gilbert’s series on Churchill is fascinating. Much of the tripe that’s been written about Churchill is exposed a nothing but State media propaganda. The Gallipoli fiasco, for example, wasn’t his idea, nor did he provide the impetus for its adoption. But he had the courage to lead this effort once the constitutional government of England decided to do it, and when it turned ugly, the fellows who urged it on in December of 2014 were quite willing to throw Winston under the bus. One of Winston’s pet ideas was to use the fairly large number of antiquated battleships to provide artillery support along the Belgium- and Dutch coasts to turn the flank of the German invasion. It sounds crazy now, but in 1914, airplanes weren’t a threat to a ship, and the guns of these ships and their fire control would have made them very effective. Plus they were mobile, so counter battery fire could be avoided. But the geniuses who were responsible for Gallipoli preferred Ypres to Antwerp. Patton paid attention to this and used Winston’s idea to work his way along the north coast of Sicily in WWII to the embarrassment of Monty.

    BobStewartatHome (10a570)

  57. False choice. They wouldn’t be in ours at all if we didn’t invite them in, and we wouldn’t have to fight in theirs if we didn’t put ourselves there.

    Double blind false choice, Gabriel Hanna. First off history shows moslems to be conquering, expansionist people. So whether or not invited in they will sooner or later invade. Secondly, if we can’t keep out illegal Mexicans and South Americans what makes you think we can keep out illegal moslems? Third, pointing out we are in the nuclear age could help you understand why we don’t need to “put ourselves there”. Why, oh why are we so reluctant to use nukes? With an attitude like that we’d still be fighting WWII. Teach the Arabs the lesson we taught the Japs.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  58. 55. ” If’n we dint invite them.”

    I do not get the force of your hypothetical scenarios. We live in this world not your ‘woulda, coulda land’ of isolations contentment. There is no bridge of starlight to levitate between them.

    Unambiguous World War is already launched.

    DNF (4a9f41)

  59. Also, Gabriel Hanna, I’d like to point out if a guy walks up and punches you in the face whether you like it or not you’re in a fight. The moslems have declared war on us and metaphorically punched us in the face at the WTC. Like it or not, we’re at war. We can fight to win or listen to the leftists.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  60. Yours is the false choice, Gabriel. No one invited jihadis to America to wage war on us but once they did attack us, we were at war whether you like it or not. I’d rather fight them there than here. It’s harder on our military but better for our civilians and society.

    DRJ (521990)

  61. I see Hoagie already said the same thing I said.

    DRJ (521990)

  62. First off history shows moslems to be conquering, expansionist people

    History also shows that the peoples of Europe and their descendants in America tend to be conquering, expansionist people. The whole reason we are here in North America is because the Europeans who lived on the Atlantic littoral were conquering expansionist folk. Likewise that we talk of fifty states, not thirteen.

    The moslems have declared war on us and metaphorically punched us in the face at the WTC.

    Gabriel’s point is that the jihadis attacked us because they did not like things we were doing in Southwest and South Central Asia. Were those things we were doing, in light of the Cold War and oil, necessary or at least appropriate? I think they were, although I have the feeling Gabriel thinks they were not.

    kishnevi (9cb6b5)

  63. The jihadis attacked us because we’re not moslems. Any other reason is a lie. Their DNA requires they conquer and kill non moslems. They’ve been doing that long before we were doing things they didn’t like in Southwest and South Central Asia.

    Unfortunately you thought I was talking history about moslems, I was not. I’m referring to their contemporary propensity to kill anyone who won’t convert. Apparently you thought I meant they were historic conquerors because of some other reason than religion.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  64. Just in case narciso missed it:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/10/the_journalists_handbook_how_to_write_any_story_without_working_at_it.html

    What passes for thought in our culture is a waste of consciousness.

    DNF (4a9f41)

  65. These are not people who want to kill us because “they did not like things we were doing in Southwest and South Central Asia”. These are people who want to kill us because we’re not moslem. This is in Michigan!

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/images1/islam1.jpg#Islam%20dearborn%20michigan%20379×251

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  66. I saw that, DNF and I too copied it for future reference.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  67. These are people who want to kill us because we’re not moslem

    So why are there no chants of “Death to Japan! Death to Brazil”? Why are we the Great Iblis, and not China or Russia?

    kishnevi (31ba4e)

  68. History also shows that the peoples of Europe and their descendants in America tend to be conquering, expansionist people.

    Such an observation should always be paired with the corollary that the so-called indigenous people of North America (or Indians) were quite tribal and territorial — and ruthless — towards one another. Another observation should be the question of what type of civilization springs forth from a conquering, expansionist populace? A nice one? A crummy one?

    For example, did the early immigrants who eventually inculcated the United States (after plenty of blood, sweat and tears) create places with the abject poverty, shabbiness and criminality of, say, modern-day Mexico? Yea, of course there was the “Wild, wild West” of early, post-European America, but were such settings in general — overall — as Third World-ish and pathetic as what can be found in segments of today’s urban America or the cardboard shantytowns south of the border?

    Mark (f713e4)

  69. DNF – Sunday morning always starts out with Clarice, thanks to narciso.

    mg (31009b)

  70. So why are there no chants of “Death to Japan! Death to Brazil”? Why are we the Great Iblis, and not China or Russia?

    Why do you think? Or in the book of kishnevi must they name every single country on earth for their hate to be valid? Apparently you’ve decided to speak for the moslems so, please tell me. You must have some deep, deep understanding of how loving and wonderful they are so please share it with me.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  71. Or in the book of kishnevi

    I know kishnevi displays left-leaning sentiments on occasion, but I can’t believe he posed the question about the chant of “death to America” and a lack of same for other nations in order to somehow reflect this nation’s badness or guilt compared with that of others. Even more so when people from throughout the world have long been known to pull out all stops to immigrate to the US instead of most other nations.

    I suspect a lot of the bad mouthing of the US stems from the same superficial emotions that have long made Americans on the two coasts jeer at “flyover country,” or made Americans view New York City with derisive suspicion, or made San Franciscans sneer at Los Angelenos, or made Chicagoans sneer at St Louisans, or, for that matter, made folks give the evil eye to the Dallas Cowboys.

    Mark (f713e4)

  72. Give it a break Mark.

    JD (6e1c3d)

  73. Rev H, methinks you do not get my point. Why are they focused on us? Why didn’t they go after Chechnyan-suppressing Russia instead of leaving the Chechnyans to mostly fend for themselves? Why not go after China, which after all has a large Moslem population? Why not go after Japan or half a dozen other countries?
    Something about the US attracted their attention and made us prime target. Gabriel and I are saying our previous five decades of meddling in the Middle East was responsible. I think that meddling was justified; Gabriel does not, if I am reading his remarks correctly. (And neither one of us believes the jihadis are justified by anything.)
    Do you agree with that, and if not, why do you think we are the prime target?

    kishnevi (31ba4e)

  74. We’re the weak horse, russia is occasionally a target as China and Thailand have been recently.

    narciso (fe0b52)

  75. why do you think we are the prime target?

    If the target was the WTC on 9/11/01, it was because we were in Saudi Arabia enforcing the no-fly zone.

    In general, I agree that we have been enforcing some level of civilization in the middle east. Some on the left say it is for Israel but this is nonsense. Israel is the only democracy and has an historic right to that land but they did pretty well without us prior to 1973.

    We took on the role that the British had to abandon after WWI when they had been bled white by the Somme and Ypres. For 100 years, from 1815 to 1914, the British had kept the peace, at least in the west.

    Truman in 1948 decided to accept the role in Greece and then in Korea. That bipartisan agreement held for 60 years until Obama. There is now no hegemon committed to world peace and we see the results. We saw them from 1920 to 1940 and it was not something I wanted to see again but, then, I am not a Democrat.

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  76. One wonders if ubl had continued to attack the kingdom and avoid the us what would have happened.

    narciso (fe0b52)

  77. Give it a break Mark.

    A break from basic reality, JD? No can do.

    However, I do think Hoagie is inadvertently implying that kishnevi is a “Blame America First” fool, which would be a correct conclusion if he were the type to claim the US had horrifically, cruelly, greedily stuck its fingers into the affairs of the Middle East, while not being nearly as bothered by what other nations had done there (such as diabolical gameplaying of the former Soviet Union), and while, worse of all, shrugging off people throughout the Middle East (such as the leaders of Iran) who love to claim that Hitler had the proper ideas about the Jews.

    Mark (f713e4)

  78. WE are the prime target because even though many Americans (you know who you are) do not believe we are a Judeo-Christian country most of the world and all of Islam does. Their target for centuries was Jews and Christians. Their target now are Jews and Christians. The US represents all that is modern Judeo-Christian culture and success. They want to kill us because of that. You guys who try and find deep geopolitical reasons for the actions of devout moslems merely acting on their Koran and what it tells them to do are way off. Keep it simple. “Allahu Akbar” does not mean Happy Birthday in Arabic. And when they scream “Death to America” they in effect are screaming death to Japan and death to Brazil. Who do you think they’ll kill after America, themselves?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  79. @BobStewart@home: Imagine a world where Adolf ruled from the French coast to Manchuria, and then south to the tip of Africa, and Japan ruled south from Manchuria and east to Hawaii.

    That would never have happened, Japan attacked us and then Hitler declared war on us in December of 1941, what were we to do, surrender?

    You seem to think I am a pacifist, and I’m not. But the Germans were flies conquering flypaper.

    @DNF & DRJ: No one invited jihadis to America to wage war on us

    We’re the ones who issued their visas. (The vast majority of them have come into the country legally.) We’re the ones who build the planes that their nations are incapable of building, and we’re the ones who lend their governments the money to buy those planes.

    @Rev’m Hoagie: First off history shows moslems to be conquering, expansionist people

    Yeah, until about 500 years ago, since then they haven’t been very good at it.

    The moslems have declared war on us and metaphorically punched us in the face at the WTC.

    They sure did, and a military response was appropriate. Nothing justifies us still being in Afghanistan fifteen years later.

    WWII: 3 years (for us). WWI: less than two years (for us). American Civil War: 4 years.

    What accomplishments have we to show for our 15 years that compare to those?

    Who do you think they’ll kill after America, themselves?

    Without our inviting them to live among us while simultaneously killing them and meddling in their affairs in their own countries, their hate would be impotent, they simply have no way to get here without our express aid.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  80. hahaha ur hate is impotent suck it

    happyfeet (831175)

  81. …..they simply have no way to get here without our express aid.

    So you believe they have no way to get here? You added “without our express aid”, please explain what that means.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  82. 82.hahaha ur hate is impotent suck it

    Are you drinkin’ again, happyfeet? I just got back from an afternoon “linner” with several Korean friends at Carrabbas. We drank Amarone (of course) and Sambuca with 3 beans for dessert. Now the Koreans are FORCING Soju on me! Forcing, I swear. ( but I have a Knob Creek and rocks hidden on the side).

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  83. careful of the knob they make two kinds the 120 proof acts like it’s your friend but it’s NOT

    happyfeet (831175)

  84. Gabriel,

    So now it’s our fault for issuing visas and sharing our country and culture with other peoples? I think that openness makes us the good guys, not a reason to blame us when jihadis take advantage of our openness and use it to hurt us.

    DRJ (521990)

  85. Our esteemed host wrote:

    I never said he has to personally pick targets or personally ensure that the targets are the right ones. I said he needs to put in the time, care, and effort he should to make sure innocents don’t die in the process of taking out terrorists. This includes ensuring that communication exists between organizations like Doctors Without Borders and the chain of command responsible for making determinations of bombing targets. This man is giving orders that can take away the lives of innocent people and it’s not enough to say “hey this is war” because we are always at war, all the time, constantly.

    That would mean that the Commander-in-Chief should order the Secretary of Defense, the civilian authorities, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to insure that such things are set up. They, in turn, issue the instructions to their subordinates, who formulate the policies and mechanisms to carry out the Commander-in-Chief’s orders. The CinC should receive back reports from his subordinates concerning how this was going to be accomplished, and when the systems would be in place. At that point, the President shouldn’t be involved at all, unless there is a failure of the system.

    The Dana who understands delegation of authority (1b79fa)

  86. unless there is a failure of the system

    that could never happen in failmerica

    well, not unless the system required the government to build a “website”

    happyfeet (831175)

  87. well the conquest of even moderately Moslem lands were tricky, how long did the Phillipine campaign really take, the French conquered Algeria, in 17 years, they sent DeTocqueville
    halfway through, to find out why, he concluded Islam was the large part of the problem,

    then you have the lobbies like CAIR, ISNA, the influence of the Levick grp, which paints us with black hats, and them with white hats,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  88. @DRJ:So now it’s our fault for issuing visas and sharing our country and culture with other peoples?

    If you walk alone through bad streets at night, blindfolded, with a fat roll of cash clearly visible in your hand, and you get mugged, are you morally at fault? No. Are you stupid? Yes.

    If you kick a hornet’s nest, should you bring it into your house?

    We have no business importing people who say they want to kill us.

    They can appreciate our culture in their 25-odd Muslim countries and they are welcome to emulate it; and they will be better off if they do.

    But as long as the people in those places act they way they do it is insane to admit them here, especially while we kill people and break things in their own countries. Which we have been doing long before 9/11.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  89. @Rev’m Hoagie:So you believe they have no way to get here? You added “without our express aid”, please explain what that means.

    They’re not walking through the Sonoran desert. They’re not floating over from Nigeria or Indonesia on rafts. They’re not kayaking over from Kamchatka. They’re not taking hot air balloons from Western Sahara.

    They are coming through international airports on visas that we issue to them.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  90. while we kill people and break things

    take your cap and leave my sweater

    happyfeet (831175)

  91. well some Salafi are coming across the border, Wahhabi influence certainly led to Boko Haram and Gemaa, finding a suitable growth climate,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  92. they simply have no way to get here without our express aid.

    This is the fundamental premise of your comments, Gabriel, and it is wrong. Obviously wrong, hopelessly wrong, simply wrong. It is so wrong that I won’t bother to list the thousands of ways “they” could get here. Nor will I bother to list what “they” would need to bring “here” to make things very difficult for us. Even in the days of sailing ships and the American Revolution, “they” raided Irish fishing villages to capture nubile redheads who would fetch a nice price on the slave market in Tripoli. Now “they” can buy ships and airplanes from any number of suppliers who have no connections with the U. S., and these suppliers certainly have no fear of any Democrat controlled administration.

    since then [500 years ago] they haven’t been very good at it[conquest].

    But not for lack of trying. “Their” last big defeat was as recently as 1911 when the Ottoman Empire was thrown out of the Balkans, including Kosovo and Albania. But “they” remember the good old days when eastern Europe was their slave state, and “they” would welcome it back. Remember allah is on their side … and 72 virgins await the male virgins who martyr themselves using their tennis shoes as land mine detectors. One of my club teammates in grad-school was in the nuclear engineering department during the Shah’s reign. Mohammad would miss a few practices with the excuse that he thought the Shah’s secret police were closing in on him. We all thought that was funny. Then Jimmy Carter got elected, and a few years later my ex-teammate was probably diligently designing centrifuges. I stopped laughing. I certainly don’t share your confidence that Mohammad was an incompetent engineer. Just think about Japan’s humiliation of the Czar a few decades after Perry paid them a visit and introduced them to western technology.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  93. they came into the country with the influx from the Subcontinent, the harkis from the Algerian war, the gastarbeiters to Deutschland, the Morrocans to the Lowlands,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  94. How soon we forget. The Tsarnaevs came from Chechnya, by way of Kyrgyzstan and Dagestan, as “refugees from Russian oppression”. We had them on the dole, with better welfare goodies than we give our own citizens. Why? Because our foreign policy is managed by indiscriminate clods (and that’s being charitable).

    BTW, Al Qaeda was in Chechnya during the first Chechnyan war. It distinguished itself by blowing up ancient Chechnyan towers which it considered anti-Islamic. Putin put a stop to them in the second war.

    nk (dbc370)

  95. now volodya basically cleared the decks, so the only choices were the kadyrovski or the emirate,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  96. Narciso, thanks
    Although

    Time has demonstrated that the Sufis were not prepared for such intrusions; that the murids unconditionally believed everything that the sheikhs told them.

    Suggests a surprising ignorance of the importance of the sheik/disciple (guru/chela) relationship in Sufi culture. The disciple is expected to give the sheik total deference and authority.

    kishnevi (28fa9f)

  97. 11. Russia hasn’t done anything much against ISIS. That’s not whom they are mainly fighting, and their air defenses are ot aimed as ISIS, but NATO or some NATO members, in case they decide to interfere.

    Sammy Finkelman (6c2cdd)

  98. your welcome for the insight, it’s left unclear how Wahhabism became so dominant though,

    the druze fit the role of the sufi in syria,

    http://www.fpri.org/articles/2013/03/syrian-druze-toward-defiant-neutrality

    narciso (ee1f88)

  99. The Druze are out of mainstream Islam…more a small ethnic group which adheres to a quasi heretical form of Shia. They are the only Arabs who routinely serve in the IDF, and the fact that they live in Israel, Syria, and Lebanon might be one vector to lead to Israel directly fighting in Syria, although the Israelis are trying to make sure that doesn’t happen.

    kishnevi (9cb6b5)

  100. he misses the point, libya we hired the salafi, that’s why we are where we are,

    http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2015/10/11/how-putin-outwitted-the-west/

    narciso (ee1f88)

  101. @BobStewart@home:It is so wrong that I won’t bother to list the thousands of ways “they” could get here.

    I listed some, here’s some more:

    Hot-air balloon from Western Sahara
    Kayak from Kamchatka
    Raft from Nigeria
    Sonoran desert on foot
    Swimming (probably from West Africa to Brazil, it’s shortest there)
    Flying by flapping their arms (great-circle route of Greenland)

    Vapors and megrims. None of them have done any of these absurd things, they’ve come here on planes with visas. If we stopped issuing them the visas and didn’t allow them into our airports, it would be so difficult for them to come here that they would find much more opportunity in killing their own people, whom they hate slightly more than they hate us, or failing that Europeans who are much closer.

    Even in the days of sailing ships and the American Revolution

    blah blah blah Barbary pirates Saladin Ottoman Empire. Horseshit.

    War is inherently a big government project, and endless war against phantom enemies will guarantee the continued erosion of our liberties. Not to mention the cost.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  102. @BobStewart@home:It is so wrong that I won’t bother to list the thousands of ways “they” could get here.

    I listed some, here’s some more:

    Hot-air balloon from Western Sahara
    Kayak from Kamchatka
    Raft from Nigeria
    Sonoran desert on foot
    Swimming (probably from West Africa to Brazil, it’s shortest there)
    Flying by flapping their arms (great-circle route of Greenland)

    Vapors and megrims. None of them have done any of these absurd things, they’ve come here on planes with visas. If we stopped issuing them the visas and didn’t allow them into our airports, it would be so difficult for them to come here that they would find much more opportunity in killing their own people, whom they hate slightly more than they hate us, or failing that Europeans who are much closer.

    Even in the days of sailing ships and the American Revolution

    blah blah blah Barbary pirates Saladin Ottoman Empire. If my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle.

    War is inherently a big government project, and endless war against phantom enemies will guarantee the continued erosion of our liberties. Not to mention the cost.

    Gabriel Hanna (940cc0)

  103. Gabriel, it is estimated that 40% of the 11 million to 30 million illegal aliens presently living in our country got here on visas. That means there are at least 6.6 million illegals who could teach you some valuable lessons on how to get here without the permission of our government. There is also a highly profitable illegal trade in drugs that relies on methods that are much more substantial than the vapors you imagine. No need for balloons. Tunnels, boats, and airplanes work just fine if you don’t want to walk.

    War takes two belligerents. Our current policy is to preemptively surrender thus avoiding all the nuisance of making war, let alone hard choices.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  104. They are coming through international airports on visas that we issue to them.

    Some are I’m sure. Others come across the northern and southern border just like any other illegal, drug runner or human trafficker. There’s another leftist term I hate, human trafficker. They’re slave traders, call’em what they are.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)

  105. @BobStewart@Home:That means there are at least 6.6 million illegals who could teach you some valuable lessons on how to get here without the permission of our government.

    They came here on a visa. They had our permission to come. That is what “visa” means:

    A visa (from the Latin charta visa, meaning “paper which has been seen”), is a conditional authorization granted by a country to a noncitizen to enter and temporarily remain within that country.

    Yes, and as you point out, some overstay and become people illegally present in the country. But they got here with permission that we issued to them. Which I oppose. Every single one of the 9/11 terrorists was given permission to enter this country legally. Three of them fell out of legal status while they were here, but ALL were given permission to come here.

    Tunnels, boats, and airplanes work just fine if you don’t want to walk.

    Try naming some terrorists who came in this way. They don’t need to come in this way. They apply for visas, and get them, and come in on a plane. If that option were not available to them, it would be many times more difficult for them to come here, so difficult that they will be much more likely to pursue easier targets.

    I don’t understand how an insane visa system is an argument for hundreds of billions to be spent on the invasion and occupation of foreign countries. Surely, instead, it is an argument for a sane visa system along with sane border security that might, at most, cost hundreds of millions to implement.

    @Rev’m Hoagie:Others come across the northern and southern border just like any other illegal, drug runner or human trafficker.

    Okay, name some terrorists who did that instead of coming here on plane with legal paperwork. And then once you’ve done that, you can explain why invading and occupying foreign countries is cheaper and easier and safer than border security and not issuing visas to potential terrorists.

    Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1)

  106. Okay, name some terrorists who did that instead of coming here on plane with legal paperwork.

    I can’t name any Gabriel, does that mean they don’t exist? There are terrorists who are born here too. The problem is not visas, the problem is who we issue them to. Why are we issuing visas to people from countries and/or religions who have declared war on us?

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie™ (f4eb27)


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