Patterico's Pontifications

7/29/2015

Some Lives Matter, Some Lives Just Don’t

Filed under: General — Dana @ 6:53 pm

[guest post by Dana]

For those who don’t know about nationally adored Cecil the Lion, here’s a brief recap: A dentist from Minnesota went to Zimbabwe and paid $50,000 to go on a guided hunting expedition. Apparently the guides and Dr. Palmer were able to lure Cecil out of the Hwange National Park, where it had protected status, and onto a neighboring game farm. Then, according to guides, Dr. Palmer killed the 13 year old lion with a bow and arrow. As a result, Dr. Palmer now faces charges of poaching. This week, Dr. Palmer apologized saying that he believed the hunt was a legal hunt and the he regretted killing such a protected and adored animal. Not good enough. He is not only at the center of a raging debate about the ethics of big-game hunting, but is also the target of threats and verbal attacks. As a result, Dr. Palmer has kept his office closed for the past few days, directing patients to see other dentists. Outside of his office, beyond the memorial set up for Cecil, protesters carried signs reading KILLER. Protester Lori Peterson explained: “These animals need a voice.”

Now the cries of Cecil have reached Capitol Hill and 4th District Rep. Betty McCollum is seeking justice for the lost lion and is calling for a federal investigation into his death:

“To bait and kill a threatened animal, like this African lion, for sport cannot be called hunting, but rather a disgraceful display of callous cruelty.”

“For those of us committed to ending poaching of iconic African species I strongly believe the U.S. Attorneys’ Office and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service should investigate whether U.S. laws were violated related to conspiracy, bribery of foreign officials, and the illegal hunting of a protected species or animal,” McCollum said.

She added that she would actively pursue a legislative path to protecting other endangered animals in Africa and elsewhere.

Answering the unasked question, no, McCollum has not demanded a federal investigation into Planned Parenthood nor has she sought justice for any babies being crushed and dismembered. For that matter, if protester Lori Peterson’s Facebook page is any sort of reference, she too has been silent, making no impassioned statements about animals babies needing a voice but making plenty of pleas to protect animals…

Once more, we’re slapped in the face by the cold reality that in the baby slaughterhouses, a baby in the womb’s value comes only in death and dismemberment. Cecil, lucky lion that he was, had the value that all of God’s creature do, but was also anthropomorphized and ascribed a higher worth and status by untold numbers who not only loved him but diligently worked to make sure he was legally protected and kept from harm. Ironically, it is the lion being mourned by people everywhere, including politicians, those shouting our bodies, ourselves and those who desperately want us to believe that evil is not what we see and know to be true. Unsurprisingly, Cecil is quickly becoming the embodiment and quintessential symbol of the blameless: the one whose life was cruelly ended by the hands of a brutal man. This while the smallest miracles of innocence, whose tiny heartbeats echo God, are easily ignored.

We have lost our way.

–Dana

Update by JD

Lions > babies

203 Responses to “Some Lives Matter, Some Lives Just Don’t”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (86e864)

  2. To use the term “threatened animal” is to intentionally insert charged words into the debate.

    The scientific term is “products of hunting.”

    Thanks.

    egd (1ad898)

  3. There is another contrast that was pointed out by a Facebook meme I saw tonight. ISIS kills hundreds of Christian women and children ( and nonChristian too, although the meme did not refer to them), and “no one bats an eye” but one lion is killed and “everyone freaks out”.

    kishnevi (91d5c6)

  4. “ANIMAL LOVERS ENCOURAGE MURDER IN REVENGE FOR A LION’S DEATH, from Bookworm Room:

    While I’ve long ago left behind my knee-jerk opposition to all hunting, especially since I recognize that hunters do a great deal to preserve natural habitats in America, I don’t think I’d like to hunt, and I most certainly cannot come up with a rationale to justify big game hunting. Put another way, I’m not a fan of what the dentist did, even assuming it’s true he didn’t intend to contravene game preserve protections.

    Not being a big fan, though, is not the same as being a crazed, hysterical murderer — and that’s precisely what Cecil’s fans are looking for.

    RELATED: “What Cecil the Lion Tells About America,” from Aaron Clarey, the author of Enjoy the Decline:

    The real story is not that poor Cecil was tragically shot. It’s that western civilization, specifically the younger generations, have lost their collective minds and do not have the mental faculties to be adults, let alone adults in the free world. They are effectively zombies. And there is no reasoning with them.

    Plan accordingly.”

    http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/211516/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  5. I cannot get over how the moral core of so many Americans has denigrated to this extent, kishnevi.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  6. This dentist has failed number of IQ tests. First, nobody goes to Zimbabwe and allows oneself to be in the orbit of Mugabe.

    Second anybody who hunts big game with a crossbow has a death wish or lots of guides with large caliber rifles as backup.

    Read “The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber.”

    Finally, what did this guy think would happen when the lunatic world leftist press gets a hold of the story ?

    Mike K (90dfdc)

  7. yes, that was foolishness on his part, however there is a loss of perspective, re the same fracking country,

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/07/liberals-outraged-over-death-of-zimbabwean-lion-but-silent-on-mugabes-30000-death-squad-victims/

    narciso (ee1f88)

  8. Dana Loesch made the point about PP and the dead lion on Megyn Kelley’s show a few minutes ago, Dana. and did so with feeling and eloquence.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  9. It’s a big world, with about 7 billion people. This @~~hole found his Nemesis, just like the Planned Parenthood @~~holes did. Lots of Nemeses to go around.

    nk (dbc370)

  10. no, nk they are literally devil’s advocates, like the demonic lawfirm in angel, on the side of PP, who stands up for this schlub,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  11. Just a reminder: Adolph Hitler and his regime were big on animal rights, and Der Fuhrer was a vegan.

    I bet a lot of the people so upset about the story of Cecil the Lion to the point where they want the government to act like Big Brother and to personally string up the dentist are (1) of the left and (2) comparatively less troubled — if at all — by the story of Planned Parenthood and the selling of baby parts.

    That dichotomy makes me think of this dichotomy:

    theblaze.com, February 2014: The author of a German study that examined thousands of anti-Semitic hate messages told an Israeli newspaper that she was “very surprised” to discover that only 3 percent came from those described as members of the political “far-right.”

    Monika Schwarz-Friesel, a linguistics professor at the Technical University of Berlin, and her team read 14,000 letters and emails addressed to the Israeli embassy in Berlin and to Germany’s Central Council of Jews, Haaretz reported. “I wanted to find out how modern anti-Semites think, feel and communicate,” Schwarz-Friesel told Haaretz.

    The study concluded that a majority of the messages – 60 percent – were sent by educated Germans, including university professors and priests.

    That finding shattered the research team’s initial assumptions.

    “At first, we thought that most of the letters would be sent by right-wing extremists,” Schwarz-Friesel said. “But I was very surprised to discover that they were actually sent by people from the social mainstream – professors, Ph.D.s, lawyers, priests, university and high-school students.”

    Liberal or leftist emotions (btw, Germany’s Nazi Party included the benevolent word “socialist” in its full, formal name) are so reliable and trustworthy, and truly beautiful.

    Mark (d3f102)

  12. Did this lion have a last name of Richards? Cecil Richards?

    Is there documentation of this lion being named Cecil prior to a month ago?
    For instance there is a wikipedia entry for the killing of Cecil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Cecil_the_lion

    Everyone of the 25 citations dated July 29-30 2015.
    Cecil is an obvious choice for a name picked on the spur of the moment, if someone were looking to start a PR campaign.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  13. This dentist has failed number of IQ tests. First, nobody goes to Zimbabwe and allows oneself to be in the orbit of Mugabe.

    Walter Palmer apparently has a lengthy record of killing wild game for trophies and also was accused of sexual harassment by a former employee/patient of his.

    I wonder if a person’s tolerance of a horror zone like Zimbabwe and its culture/politics — and not being so turned off by it to want to avoid it like the plague — is a window into such a person’s own political-philosophical orientation?

    Mark (d3f102)

  14. No corresponding wikipedia entry for Cecil the “famous lion” of Zimbabwi. So he’s not famous in his own right. He’s just famous for being shot in a hunt the other day.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  15. you mean the head of the African Union, who is supposed to determine the incursions of the likes of Sudan,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  16. Any lawyers here that can explain how a judge can do this:
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/29/restraining-order-issued-against-anti-abortion-group-video/

    aside from the initial reaction of WTH? , the restraint is for over 3 weeks!

    re #11: Adolf Hitler was not a vegan , repeating a falsehood does not make it true.

    seeRpea (65ab7f)

  17. Dana Loesch made the point about PP and the dead lion on Megyn Kelley’s show a few minutes ago, Dana. and did so with feeling and eloquence.
    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/29/2015 @ 7:23 pm

    I’ll have to look it up online, Col, as I don’t usually watch the show or follow Loesch. It’s an easy connection to made. Almost as if the object lesson were tailor-made for the past two weeks.

    Dana (86e864)

  18. easy connection to make

    Dana (86e864)

  19. It’s international tiger day.
    I think it means you’re supposed to buy me a beer.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  20. re #11: Adolf Hitler was not a vegan , repeating a falsehood does not make it true.

    telegraph.co.uk, February 2013: Margot Woelk, 95, said that Hitler ate only the freshest fruit and vegetables during the two and a half years that she was forced to check his food for traces of poison. During the Second World War, Mrs Woelk, a German citizen whose husband had been sent to fight, was taken by the SS to Hitler’s Eastern Front headquarters in modern-day Poland, known as the “Wolf’s Lair”. There, she joined a team of a dozen other women whose job it was to protect Hitler from any attempts to poison him.

    She said: “Between 11 and 12 o’clock, we had to taste the food, and only after all of us had tried it was it driven to the headquarters by the SS.

    “It was all vegetarian
    , the most delicious fresh things, from asparagus to peppers and peas, served with rice and salads. It was all arranged on one plate, just as it was served to him. There was no meat and I do not remember any fish.

    Hitler’s apparent enthusiasm for vegetarianism reflected the Nazi obsession with Aryan bodily purity. A Hitler Youth manual from the 1930s promoted soya beans, which it called “Nazi beans” as an alternative to meat.

    In 1942, Hitler told Joseph Goebbels that he intended to convert Germany to vegetarianism when he won the war. But although he referred to meat broth as “corpse tea”, he was not fastidious about declining meat. Dione Lucas, his cook before the war, claimed that he was a fan of stuffed pigeon and he was also known to be partial to Bavarian sausages and the occasional slice of ham.

    ^ The latter part may be why some people — for whatever reason — like insisting that Der Fuhrer wasn’t a vegetarian.

    Mark (d3f102)

  21. LOS ANGELES – A temporary restraining order has been issued preventing an anti-abortion group from releasing any video of leaders of a California company that provides fetal tissue to researchers. The group is the same one that previously released three covertly shot videos of a Planned Parenthood leader discussing the sale of aborted fetuses for research.

    The Los Angeles Superior Court order issued Tuesday prohibits the Center for Medical Progress from releasing any video of three high-ranking StemExpress officials taken at a restaurant in May. It appears to be the first legal action prohibiting the release of a video from the organization.

    Dana (86e864)

  22. Lions > babies

    JD (3898b3)

  23. pp may as well use a bow and arrow for their killing sprees.

    mg (31009b)

  24. Veganism is not vegetarianism. Vegetarians can consume dairy, for instance.

    John Hitchcock (a895ac)

  25. Dana – I made a very small update to your otherwise excellent post

    JD (3898b3)

  26. remember the big hash tag campaign, the reality was somewhat different,

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32604782

    narciso (ee1f88)

  27. A TRO on a First Amendment activity. The judge must be demented.

    nk (dbc370)

  28. Now, let’s see if the ACLU who sued for Nazis to March in Skokie will defend the Center for Medical Progress’s First Amendment rights.

    nk (dbc370)

  29. Nk -I hope that group releases all the videos from Montana, or claims that they were hacked, or claims they don’t know what happened to their email server, or does like Obama and just ignores a judges order.

    JD (34f761)

  30. Re: the report of an LA Court’s injunction prohibiting publication of PP video(s), this is called prior restraint:

    In First Amendment law, a prior restraint is government action that prohibits speech or other expression before it can take place. There are two common forms of prior restraints. The first is a statute or regulation that requires a speaker to acquire a permit or license before speaking, and the second is a judicial injunction that prohibits certain speech. Both types of prior restraint are strongly disfavored, and, with some exceptions, generally unconstitutional.

    This falls in the second category — a “judicial injunction that prohibits certain speech. In general, prior restraint is discouraged but some examples of permitted exceptions include publications that jeopardize a defendant’s right to a fair trial (gag orders) and obscenity cases.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  31. I read that it StemExpress alleging that CMP was unlawfully eavesdropping during the luch meeting, not PP.

    Dana (86e864)

  32. re #32: StemExpress is planning on getting sued??

    seeRpea (65ab7f)

  33. I think it is both possible and civilized and reasonable to be revolted and horrified both by the dentist’s illegal lion killing and by the videos about the PP abattoirs. They are two different issues –really they are–and there is room in this world to publicize both without trying to compare them. We don’t have to choose between them. They are both newsworthy and deserve contempt.

    elissa (3363be)

  34. no elissa one was a regretable accident, the other is policy supported at the top ranks of the government, media et al,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  35. Dana,

    I think you’re correct that StemExpress sought the injunction, but I’m referring to them as PP videos because I think PP is the overall issue.

    DRJ (1dff03)

  36. That was not an accident narciso, stop it.

    elissa (3363be)

  37. he didn’t intend to kill the prize lion of zimbabwe, which no one knew about until this week,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  38. musket morgan, was not merely as concerned with the bullseye he painted on the backs of British soldiers in Basra, with his phony report,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  39. DRJ,

    I understand. I hadn’t seen your comment before I posted mine. Wth that ,could you elaborate on the exceptions as far as the videos are concerned? I understand Stem Express is claiming not just unlawful eavesdropping but also fraud and theft. Wouldn’t PP be the ones to seek an injunction?

    Dana (86e864)

  40. There is no good reason to stand up for the big game trophy hunter. He and his ilk are absolute scum. This is not hunting deer or pheasant or elk for food. The dentist deserves what he is reaping. PP is also scum.

    elissa (3363be)

  41. dejavu all over again,

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3179226/Are-trying-send-mob-Mia-Farrow-accused-irresponsible-behavior-posting-address-dentist-killed-Cecil-lion-Twitter.html

    theft seems dubious and fraud more so, seems like an intervention on behalf a party that need not be named, because of powerful patrons,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  42. when there is more attention in one day, about Cecil,then the last two weeks of the CMP, re have dialed so far past eleven, we can’t imagine,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  43. Lots of angst over a universally loved animal who no one had ever heard of before a couple days ago.

    Estragon (ada867)

  44. He simply was not vegan or vegetarian.

    The phrase of “distinction without a difference” may be applicable here. Moreover, quibbling over his enjoying a bit of sausage and pigeon on occasion set against the backdrop of his and his regime’s overall modus operandi is a variation of the meaning behind “and other than THAT, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”

    psychologytoday.com, November 2011: Remarkably, as soon as the Nazi Party came to power in 1933, they began to enact scores of animal protection laws, some of which are still operative in Germany. For example, in Nazi Germany, people who mistreated their pets could be sentenced to two years in jail. The Nazis banned the production of foie gras and docking the ears and tails of dogs without anesthesia, and they severely restricted invasive animal research. The Nazi Party established the first laws insuring that animal used in films were not mistreated and also mandated humane slaughter procedures for food animals and for the euthanasia of terminally ill pets. (The Nazis were particularly concerned with the suffering of lobsters in restaurants). In addition, the German government established nature preserves, a school curriculum for the humane treatment of animals, and they hosted one of the first international conferences on animal protection.

    While concern for animal suffering was not universal among the Nazi hierarchy, Arluke and Sax convincingly argue that pro-animal sentiment was widespread. In 1933, Hermann Göring announced he would “commit to concentration camps those who still think they can treat animals as property.” The feared Heinrich Himmler once asked his doctor, who was a hunter, “How can you find pleasure, Herr Kerstein, in shooting from behind at poor creatures browsing on the edge of a wood…It is really murder.”

    Perhaps the most chilling episode in the bizarre annals of Nazi animal protectionism was a 1942 law banning pet-keeping by Jews. As a result, dogs and cats owned by Jews were rounded up and humanely euthanized according to the German regulations pertaining to pets. But unlike their companion animals, Jews themselves were not covered under the humane slaughter legislation.

    There is no doubt that Adolf Hitler claimed to be animal lover. In his 1938 autobiography, Mein Kampf, he describes how, when food was scarce, he would share his meager meals with mice. Hitler had a particular fondness for ravens, wolves and dogs. He abhorred hunting and horse-racing and referred to them as “the last remnants of a dead feudal world.”

    Was he a vegetarian? Arluke and Sax think so. Hitler once told a female companion who ordered sausage while they were on a date, “I didn’t think you wanted to devour a dead corpse…the flesh of dead animals. Cadavers!” Hitler claimed that meat-eating was a major factor of the decline of civilization and that vegetarianism could rejuvenate society. His henchman Goebbels wrote in his diary, “The Fuhrer is a convinced vegetarian, on principle. His arguments cannot be refuted on any series basis. They are totally unanswerable.”

    The extent of Hitler’s vegetarianism, however, is a matter of dispute. [A friend], for example, tells me that Hitler occasionally ate sausages. I suspect that she is right and that Hitler was an inconsistent vegetarian. But so are most modern American “vegetarians”, 70% of whom sometimes eat meat.

    BTW, and FWIW, Adolph Hitler was also homosexual.

    Mark (d3f102)

  45. the target of the ‘two minute hate’ doesn’t matter as long as there is one,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  46. I wouldn’t shoot a lion, but I’m not going to get all kerfluffled about it,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  47. 6. This dentist has failed number of IQ tests. First, nobody goes to Zimbabwe and allows oneself to be in the orbit of Mugabe.

    Not true. There are still quite a few good people hanging on in Zimbabwe, and they deserve support despite Mugabe.

    Second anybody who hunts big game with a crossbow has a death wish or lots of guides with large caliber rifles as backup.

    Read “The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber.”

    If you hunt Africa you have to hunt with armed professional hunters almost everywhere. It’s the law. No out-of-country amateurs hunt alone. So even if you’re hunting with a rifle you’ll have a PH right there with you with his or her own rifle.

    Guides don’t accompany hunters in Africa. They accompany non-hunting tourists and photographers. And they’re well armed, too. So even if you’re using a camera I guess you have to say you have to have a death wish, if that is the criteria.

    Finally, what did this guy think would happen when the lunatic world leftist press gets a hold of the story ?

    Mike K (90dfdc) — 7/29/2015 @ 7:16 pm

    You can’t let the lunatics run your life.

    On the other hand the guy should have done his due diligence. There shouldn’t be any questions that the PH/hunting concession owner had arranged for all the required permits, licenses, etc. Just traveling around foreign countries with some sort of weapon can easily land you in prison unless all your paperwork is in order and all the required fees have been paid.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  48. The State Dept. is saddened by the death of Cecil.

    Dana (86e864)

  49. Who speaks for the zebras? #BlackAndWhiteLivesMatter

    NickM (22278f)

  50. is 50k a reasonable fee for a hunt of this type, or should he have suspected something,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  51. 46. Lots of angst over a universally loved animal who no one had ever heard of before a couple days ago.

    Estragon (ada867) — 7/29/2015 @ 9:42 pm

    I have to wonder just how universally loved that lion was.

    I’m sure tourists and the scientists loved the cat. But the locals living around national parks in Africa tend not to be too fond of predators that kill their livestock, or large herbivores trampling, eating, and destroying the crops they intended to live on for the next year.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  52. Hitler eventually became a vegetarian in an ongoing attempt to treat the digestive problems which had plagued him from childhood. He was subject painful stomach cramps which flared during periods of stress. As he aged he found that meat triggered flare ups and he began to limit meat and eventually fish, rich foods, and dairy products from his diet.

    In his late 30s and early 40s the condition worsened and flare ups became more frequent. He often suffered violent bouts of advancing meteorism alternating with episodes of diarrhea and constipation. By the early 1930s Hitler was almost exclusively vegetarian and although he still suffered an array of digestive disorders, at least his uncontrollable gas attacks were less odoriferous.

    ropelight (8d78c6)

  53. It’s in reasonable, narcisso. In Zimbabwe to hunt lion you have to book a 21 day hunt at a basic daily rate of $1800 – $2200, then the trophy fee will set you back $10 – $15k. It depends on where you hunt. The better areas will cost you more.

    There are always going to be extras involved, but just those two charges alone will set you back $47,800 at a minimum.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  54. re #47: there was already a discussion about the Nazis and the animal rights legislation they passed on a prior thread this month. Who ever it was here first who predicted that a story about animal deaths would be given coverage over and above the PP story by leftists and MSM should claim their prize. I wonder if the Cecil Lion story would have gotten any coverage if not for the PP story.

    When YouTube pulls the plug on these PP videos, I hope DailyMotion will have them.

    seeRpea (65ab7f)

  55. For someone who is always focused on the family structure, Steve57 you are missing the boat on this one. It’s not just the loss of one male lion. Cecil was the head and protector of a large pride of lions including multiple lionesses and cubs that will now be thrown into disarray as other prides come in to take over territory and likely will kill many of the cubs of Cecil’s pride. I’d suggest some of you do some research on the co- conservation and tourism efforts in Africa, especially with respect to Lions, Elephants, and Rhinos to better understand how horrific this was. Tanzania and Zambia mostly have their acts together and shoot poachers on sight. Supposedly Zimbabwe was making strides against poachers.

    That a single person here is defending this evil man who paid over fifty thousand dollars to hunt one of nature’s noblest animals just to get a trophy for his wall shocks me. Hunting big game in Africa has nothing to do with aborted babies whose body parts are being sold in America. Nothing.

    elissa (3363be)

  56. 43. There is no good reason to stand up for the big game trophy hunter…

    elissa (3363be) — 7/29/2015 @ 9:33 pm

    No, there are very good reasons, as long as the hunter obeys the law.

    The public wildlife areas in most African countries consist of two basic types; national parks where hunting isn’t allowed, and the safari areas where it is. The safari operators lease the hunting areas from the government, and then they are responsible for maintaining the habitat. And that includes combating poaching. Here’s how on operator describes their efforts.

    http://www.cmsafaris.com/african-elephant-research/dande-anti-poaching.htm

    In 2010 Charlton McCallum Safaris (CMS) took over the Dande East (’East’) and the Dande Safari Area (‘DSA’) we soon realized that rampant poaching was something that needed to be dealt with much more effectively. The National Parks staff in the DSA were doing a decent job. However the community scouts in the East, with no incentives and seldom getting paid were an ineffective unit.

    The East was considered a depleted area, only good for early season crop raiding elephant bulls from Mozambique. The primary reason for this was that the previous hunting operator only hunted the early season for elephant. Then pulling out for the rest of the year leaving it wide open to uncontrolled poaching.

    In 2009 CMS enlisted the help of Dr. Russell Taylor to carry out a ‘capacity study’ in the East. His theoretical results were amazing and he estimated that the area could safely hold 1000 buffalo, 500 kudu, 500 sable etc.

    With this in mind as soon as our contract started in 2010, we immediately formed the DANDE ANTI POACHING UNIT (DAPU). To date our full time teams in the East have picked up over 5000 snares and have arrested over 60 poachers (in four years). The game has rebounded strongly which is extremely gratifying. In 2013 we took over Dande North (’North’) once again unifying it with the DSA and discovered the same sad story existed with the North. As of 2014 DAPU now supports both the East and North community scouts. The crux of the matter is that DAPU has now out grown our small company and we simply cannot afford to keep up the financial effort. Expenses and incentives paid out keep increasing, but we have to continue with our anti poaching!

    CMS will continue funding the bulk of all expenses, however we hope your contributions will assist us to expand DAPU, ultimately improving the Dande North and East hunting concessions for the benefit of all hunters to come and the local communities.

    …In 2011 the Dande Safari Area, like the rest of the country, suddenly saw a marked increase in elephant poaching. Our National Parks as keen as they are were under funded, demoralised and often unable to respond to situations due to having only one vehicle, in a deplorable state to patrol the whole area, CMS has taken the burden of:

    1. Helping drop and pick up patrols.

    2. Supplying the Rangers with rations for patrols.

    3. Incentives for successful patrols.

    4. Repairing the National Park vehicle and keeping it on the road.

    5. Donating diesel monthly to keep the National Parks vehicle running.

    All this takes money. If people weren’t willing to pay the big fees to hunt these animals there’d be only a fraction of African wildlife left.

    Hunting was banned in Kenya in the late 1970s. Poaching soared, and wildlife populations dwindled. As mentioned in my excerpt a crop raiding elephant wandering across the Zimbabwe border from Mozambique is of no value to the locals unless they get something out of it. Such as jobs as game scouts, or the meat in compensation for their destroyed crops.

    When Kenya banned hunting the elephant population dropped precipitously. Because since they (and no other animal) could be legally hunted, no one could legally make a living from having them around. But you could make a good illegal living by eliminating them, and it was a safe way to make a living since the safari operators who formerly policed those areas were out of business.

    Yes, you can still see elephants in Kenya. But not outside the national parks. You generally won’t see them on private property or in the tribal/communal areas. They are dangerous and of no value to the people who liver there.

    Eco-tourism, photographic safaris, they just don’t pay the freight. Individual tourists just don’t pay enough. In order to make it remotely feasible you have to haul lots of tourists around. So you get traffic jams as tour guides tear around national parks as soon as they hear over their radios that somebody spotted two cheetahs under a tree. They all converge on the poor animals, who have a hard enough time making a living without three dozen Land Rovers full of tourists chasing them around.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  57. 58. …It’s not just the loss of one male lion. Cecil was the head and protector of a large pride of lions including multiple lionesses and cubs that will now be thrown into disarray as other prides come in to take over territory and likely will kill many of the cubs of Cecil’s pride…

    This lion was 13 years old. Just how long do you think wild lions live? Especially males who have to fight to control a pride.

    This lion was not long for this world, and lion family structure is not the same as human family structure. A lion pride thrown into disarray because the pride male has been killed or ousted is part of the dynamic.

    I suggest you do your research.

    …Tanzania and Zambia mostly have their acts together and shoot poachers on sight…

    elissa (3363be) — 7/29/2015 @ 10:43 pm

    And do you know why they shoot poachers on sight? Because the fees people will pay to hunt lions are very important to Tanzania and Zambia.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0029332

    The Significance of African Lions for the Financial Viability of Trophy Hunting and the Maintenance of Wild Land

    …We assessed the significance of lions to the financial viability of trophy hunting across five countries to help determine the financial impact and advisability of the proposed trade restrictions. Lion hunts attract the highest mean prices (US$24,000–US$71,000) of all trophy species. Lions generate 5–17% of gross trophy hunting income on national levels, the proportional significance highest in Mozambique, Tanzania, and Zambia. If lion hunting was effectively precluded, trophy hunting could potentially become financially unviable across at least 59,538 km2 that could result in a concomitant loss of habitat. However, the loss of lion hunting could have other potentially broader negative impacts including reduction of competitiveness of wildlife-based land uses relative to ecologically unfavourable alternatives. Restrictions on lion hunting may also reduce tolerance for the species among communities where local people benefit from trophy hunting, and may reduce funds available for anti-poaching. If lion off-takes were reduced to recommended maximums (0.5/1000 km2), the loss of viability and reduction in profitability would be much lower than if lion hunting was stopped altogether (7,005 km2).

    …Tanzania.

    Lions generate a large proportion of income from hunting in Tanzania because they are on quota in nearly all hunting blocks, quotas of the species are high, and relatively few elephants are hunted there. If lion hunting were ever banned, there could be severe consequences for the viability of trophy hunting across large areas (~44,000 km2) of Tanzania, which could have serious consequences for wildlife conservation if alternative land uses arose as a result. That said, current profits from trophy hunting in some parts of Tanzania are probably unsustainable due to excessive harvests of lions [3]. Tanzania has recently introduced a 6-year age minimum for lion trophies [21] which would make harvests more sustainable despite uncertainties on the sizes of hunted populations [4]. Nonetheless, it remains to be seen if such a management-intensive system can be effectively applied in a country with a poor record of hunting governance [22]. Sustainability could also be achieved by reducing quotas countrywide to 0.5 lions/1000 km2, which was identified as a simple, conservative metric that could be applied to all lion populations to enhance the prospects of achieving sustainability of off-takes [3].

    …Zambia.

    Most Zambian concessions appear to be running at a loss, probably as a result of the depletion of prey populations due to human settlement and the bush-meat trade in GMAs [23], [24]. In some cases, our methods may have made viable blocks appear unviable by overestimating the start-up costs (we assumed that hunting operators use entire concessions, but in reality many Zambian operators only actually hunt in the portions of GMAs where wildlife persists (C. Burton, S&S Safaris, pers. comm.).

    …Lions are relatively significant components of financial returns from trophy hunting in Zambia, due to the low quotas of most species, and low off-takes of elephants. Zambia has a low CITES elephant quota, and their sale is hindered by the fact that the US currently prohibits the import of Zambian elephant trophies. As with Tanzania, a lion hunting ban would potentially undermine the viability of trophy hunting across a large area (10,280 km2). Conversely, a reduction of quotas to sustainable levels is not predicted to render trophy hunting unviable in any blocks.

    If you African countries were to ban trophy hunting in general, and lion hunting in particular, then you’d have lots less lions, and lots less lion habitat. Which means lots less wildlife habitat.

    It’s only because of trophy hunting that wildlife areas in Africa can exist at all, as the people would rather use the land for other uses if those areas weren’t generating revenue for them.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  58. re #47: there was already a discussion about the Nazis and the animal rights legislation they passed on a prior thread this month.

    Because academicians and historians, most of whom lean left, like to frame newsmakers and events in a certain way — certainly if it helps reflect well on liberals/liberalism — the surprisingly counterintuitive and grotesque nature of people like Hitler (who is one of the left’s favorite boogeymen) or Franklin D Roosevelt (who is one of the left’s favorite heroes—in spite of or because of (?) his saying Jews deserved some of the blame for Hitler’s rise to power) can never be overemphasized.

    I realize that more than ever since I became familiar with the true nature of what’s out there due to this forum. Or topics and discussions here that have caused me to look more closely regarding a point of controversy. For example, it wasn’t too many years ago that I was totally in the dark about the surprisingly bigoted, racist nature of a self-described liberal/progressive like Woodrow Wilson, although I was previously aware of the flat-out KKK-bigotry of another famous Democrat — who supported the idea of publicly funded healthcare over 70 years ago — Harry Truman.

    Many years ago I would never have guessed that a bloodthirsty, ruthless, cunning figurehead like Adolph Hitler could be such a devout animal lover. That’s due in part to my suspicion that the same type of people who want to tout the shooting of a lion and, at the same time, downplay the heart-hardened aspects of PP, would prefer that nothing about Hitler be foisted onto the public that shows his liberal/leftwing instincts instead of his conservative/rightwing ones.

    Mark (d3f102)

  59. King of the Jungle?

    mg (31009b)

  60. susan collins loves babies being crushed and put in a trash can. Only republican in senate that loves her some dead baby.
    What is wrong with this bitch?

    mg (31009b)

  61. i can’t belieber people are talking about lions and babies while Demi and Wilmer just got their every happiness ripped out of their arms so senselessly and so arbitrarily

    “We are absolutely heartbroken to be writing this but Wilmer and I are devastated to inform you that we lost our little angel Buddy last Sunday,” she wrote about the loss she and boyfriend Wilmer Valderrama suffered. “He was taken from us way too soon in a tragic accident and though I will never know why this had to happen.”

    “He truly was human in a way and we were so blessed to have him in our lives. We ask you that you please respect our privacy while we take this time to grieve and remember the magical moments we spent with our little angel. We will never forget our baby boy Buddy and his gentle loving spirit will live on in our hearts forever. RIP my tiniest little nightingale, Buddy…”

    buddy > lion > babbies

    i’m calling in sick today

    happyfeet (831175)

  62. it’s important to know the failwhore republicans aren’t actually trying to cut any spendings

    McConnell and other Republican backers of the bill, which is heading for a vote before the August recess, emphasize that it redirects the funding to other organizations, so it is not cutting funding for the women’s health services that Planned Parenthood provides.

    yay!

    happyfeet (831175)

  63. I agree with elissa. You can feel disgust at both baby chop-shops and trophy hunters, too. Whether it was Cecil or Aslan is beside the point. And these professionally-guided safaris are not hunts. They’re mob hits. One sadistic @**hole who pays to take the first shot backed by half a dozen minions with elephant guns to finish off the animal he wounds. Or misses altogether.

    Another thing that is besides the point is that a bunch of naked savages have no other way to preserve their wildlife than by pimping themselves out to faux hunters. You might as well say that the sex tourists in Thailand are doing the little boys they molest a favor because that’s the best living the kids can earn in that country.

    nk (dbc370)

  64. If anyone bothered to read up on how a pride of lions operate and the place in
    the pride of the male lion they would find some fairly distasteful (by human
    standards) common practices by the male.

    Any feminist who did so would not be defending Cecil I can assure you. The Male
    lion as head of the Pride is the epitome of Patriarch. (Or pimp) Subjugating the
    female to being his supply of food and sexual demands and offspring. While the
    male supplies very little to the well being and immediate survival of the Pride.

    Plus they’re a obligatory carnivore, they eat nothing but meat and become drenched
    in blood and flesh, thus they are dirty, flea ridden, smelly and otherwise
    disgusting animals.

    Plus shooting even a relatively docile and unsophisticated lion is not a feat
    for the timid or cowardly.

    jakee308 (c37f85)

  65. we need a kickstarter for to give the lions a bath

    nobody likes a stinky lion

    happyfeet (831175)

  66. this story was designed to drown out any fragment of news on Moloch’s minions, someone might get,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  67. Plenty of lions.
    Not so many elephant and rhinos… who are killed for their tusks.
    Where is the general outrage for elephants and rhinos?

    jb (8a9f1d)

  68. Where is the general outrage for elephants and rhinos?

    We’ll have to wait for the next PP video to be released to find out, jb. Then it’ll be #elephantlivesmatter all over the media.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  69. Not on this site. The outrage, here lately, is mostly against elephants and RINOs.

    nk (dbc370)

  70. For his last birthday, Robert Mugabe had a lion killed, took the head and had it mounted on the wall and then had a baby elephant served as the main course for dinner.

    Little Dumbo for dinner.

    Colonel Haiku (d14968)

  71. Outrage on social media is a thing. Everybody likes to express their ourage. When I see all of this going on it makes me…

    Very angry.

    Colonel Haiku (d14968)

  72. As for lefties I say, Cull teh herd!!!!!

    Colonel Haiku (d14968)

  73. Colonel, if you want to make general, kill’em all.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  74. Real quick quibble with the story. It was 50k for the guide company to take you on a hunt. There is a other 20-50k just to travel, import and export the weapons used (even bows and arrows), the incidentals prior to meeting the guide company. The fees to travel,the medical pre and post travel and all of that is without actually catching anythung. Big game hunting overseas and that includes Canada. Is expensive and generally a once in the lifetime deal unless you are very well to do person to make anything more than once in a life trip. Which is why the WaPo yesterday took an interesting tact in reporting this story. They asked why was he so rich and they found out that restrictions on government license that restricted entry by lower cost providers such as dental hygienists keep costs too damned high and create a monopoly. So it was weird to watch a news organizations that loves unions and government imposed licensed mandates say that those licenses are evil.

    Charles (f996a0)

  75. Lifespan: 10 – 14 years (In wild) F**k that lion. If that lion were on obamacare the hospice would have been sending in death councilors night and day telling it to give up chasing zebras.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  76. Dentists, as a group, have always made more money than MDs or lawyers. (Always being 1975 when I was picking my college major.)

    nk (dbc370)

  77. What’s more, they named that lion after Cecile Richards to cause the moment of confusion, a deflection point so that the evil could change the subject when lecturing the LIV.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  78. When Afric’s sun is sinking low,
    And shadows wander to and fro,
    And everywhere there’s in the air
    A hush that’s deep and solemn;
    Then is the time good men and true
    With View Halloo pursue the gnu;
    (The safest spot to put your shot
    is through the spinal column).

    nk (dbc370)

  79. StemExpress Only two things I know about them. They traffic in the body parts of babes murdered by Planned Parenthood, and they are located in Placerville California, Tom McClintock’s congressional district.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  80. Since McConnell has sided with baby murder, he chooses street justice as the cure.

    Blood on your hands McConnell.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  81. Heh! Sure, PETA dorks, go after a guy who owns powerful guns, knows how to shoot, and likes to kill things.

    nk (dbc370)

  82. I hate it when they go Ashley Judd like that, but she is Canadian,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  83. On the Hitler track, it’s obvious that the time traveler near Hitler is the doctor putting him on the vegetarian diet for his alternating constipation/diarrhea/flatulence.

    See, time travelers can’t kill Hitler because no Hitler, no Enigma, no Bletchley Park, no Alan Turing, no development of the electronic computer, no time travel.

    But they could make his life miserable.

    luagha (5e7cca)

  84. that’s one notion another was posited by Stephen Fry in one of his novels, where the death of Hitler, leads to the rise of a much effective dictator who does conquer the world,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  85. Every “news article” in the MSM regarding hunting and firearms is suspect. As is the norm, the 2-minute hate against the Minn. Dentist is based on lies.

    Steve Malynn (6b1ce5)

  86. Dentist Lives Matter

    ropelight (ce835d)

  87. Have you seen the Chevy commercial where they give two guys the choice between steel or aluminum cages to hide in from the 1500 lbs grizzly bear?

    Just as a skit, wouldn’t it be fun to have a group of Peta protesters, carrying on at the dentist’s office, have their party interrupted by a delivery. The truck unloads a crate addressed to the Dentist. The protestors block the delivery, open the crate, and out pops a full grown African lion, 400lbs of teeth claws and death.

    Oh that would be so fun.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  88. Check out the movie: Secondhand Lions. It has a scene much like the one you imagine.

    ropelight (ce835d)

  89. Perhaps if the dentist (and his ilk) went alone, into the bush with a spear, like the Masai of old, that might be different. That would be dangerous. You could argue there could be glory — and fear — and victory– in that kind of fight.

    Yet that’s not what happened. He shot Cecil with a bow in the guts, over bait, after it was lured out of the preserve. And it then took 40 hours to find the wounded lion. The lion suffered almost two days before he was tracked and found and ultimately put down with a gun so the trophy could be claimed. There is no glory in that.

    elissa (3b1b03)

  90. the dentist is a very tacky person with his too-white teefs and his stupid hobbies involving all these dead lions and other charismatic megafauna

    but he’s well and truly not my problem

    i wonder what Donald Trump thinks about lion boy

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  91. What do the Masai of new use, like if there were a rogue lion picking off the sheep in the field?

    Answer: American dentists with crossbows.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  92. tonight I’m a try a “vegan brownie”

    they make it with black beans and other stuff

    i have their vegan peabnut bubber scone yesterday and it was ok but lacked any real character I’d identify as “sconey” I think

    it was just too soft

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  93. Donald Trump’s older sons are also brave big game “hunters” so I’m sure he won’t have much to say.

    elissa (3b1b03)

  94. Q: Is Barron Trump the gayest name ever?

    A: Yes, Barron Trump the gayest name ever.

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  95. *is* the gayest name ever i mean

    i got distractered

    something’s falling outside

    i think maybe there’s window washers somewheres

    somewheres above

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  96. PETA and others criticised Donald Trump, Jr. and brother Eric Trump in early 2012 for taking part in an African hunt, after TMZ.com posted images of his holding up dead animal body parts; both he and his father defended his actions as providing game meat for the native peoples.

    Conservationists in Zimbabwe called for an investigation of his actions, calling into question his licensing, his methods and whether he provided humanitarian aid as claimed.

    Trump has claimed that he hunted with the proper game scout accompaniment and ensured that the meat was made available for consumption by local residents who needed good protein. In a letter published on March 27, the Director-General of the Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority, V. Chadenga, called the charges against the Trumps “baseless” and said, “Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump hunted legally during their visit to Zimbabwe.”

    He also noted there was never an “investigation” of the Trump’s hunt and that they hunted with a “registered outfitter” and were accompanied by “game rangers”.

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  97. http://movieweb.com/movie/secondhand-lions/can-i-keep-him/

    Naw. That’s not what I meant at all.

    My scene has fangs, snarling, and quiche eating friends of Cecil running in confusion, begging, pleading in hyperventilated excitement, “Does anybody have a crossbow?”

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  98. 96. …Perhaps if the dentist (and his ilk) went alone, into the bush with a spear, like the Masai of old, that might be different…

    Is this a joke? Not even the Masai went after lions alone with a spear.

    It would illegal as well, because despite the misconceptions of people who don’t know what they are talking about a rifle doesn’t give you much of an advantage over animals like lion, or buffalo, or elephant. It just evens the odds since they can hear better than you, they can smell better than you, they can move either more quietly than you or faster than you in brush that you can barely move through at all, and they can all turn the tables. A lot of people got killed hunting alone with rifles.

    …Yet that’s not what happened. He shot Cecil with a bow in the guts, over bait, after it was lured out of the preserve…

    elissa (3b1b03) — 7/30/2015 @ 11:37 am

    Traditionally African hunters used poison on their arrows. Not just the Kung! in the Kalahari but East African Elephant hunters.

    But in case you haven’t noticed the environazis want all hunting banned. So they claim using a rifle is cheating and cowardly, and using a spear or bow is cruel and inhumane.

    They take advantage of people who don’t know any better. Speaking of which.

    Lions get “lured” out of the preserve all the time. Mostly by people’s cattle or goats.

    This may come as a shock to you elissa, animals everywhere don’t confine what they consider their territory to national parks or preserves. It isn’t like they can read the signs marking the limits of the park.

    To say this lion was “lured” out of the preserve is emotional, manipulative, and above all meaningless. You don’t need to lure animals out of national parks. They leave them all the time.

    As far as baiting goes it is perfectly legal and ethical. In the US in many states hunters take wild hogs, dear, and bear over bait all the time.

    If you have a problem with using bait, why don’t you start by complaining about fisherman. If baiting is cheating, all recreational fishermen and a large number of commercial fisherman are cheaters.

    I realize I’ll never convince urbanites who have never hunted anything and don’t know what they’re talking about that they’re simply being manipulated by this story. Like this guy.

    66. …And these professionally-guided safaris are not hunts. They’re mob hits. One sadistic @**hole who pays to take the first shot backed by half a dozen minions with elephant guns to finish off the animal he wounds. Or misses altogether…

    Leaving aside the rest of the BS, anybody who thinks any wild animal is going to just stand around while a “mob” of seven guys with rifles try to sneak up on it doesn’t have two functional brain cells to rub together.

    Sure, the Dodo would. But that’s the difference between isolated island populations and animals that have to live with predators like coyotes, mountain lions, wolves, African lions, cheetahs, leopards, hyenas, etc. And the predators have to worry about each other.

    And those predators are a lot better at sneaking up on each other and their prey then people are. And nk thinks “more the merrier” and that seven people can get close enough?

    You might as well put up a sign and say “I have no clue how anything works.”

    Another thing that is besides the point is that a bunch of naked savages have no other way to preserve their wildlife than by pimping themselves out to faux hunters. You might as well say that the sex tourists in Thailand are doing the little boys they molest a favor because that’s the best living the kids can earn in that country.
    nk (dbc370) — 7/30/2015 @ 4:01 am

    Right. Africans are “naked savages.” And Africans who are trying to maintain their traditional lifestyle of living close to the land are no better than Thai boy prostitutes. Which isn’t a traditional lifestyle.

    Thai boy prostitutes and the people who trade in them lose their humanity and dignity. Like the butchers at PP. On the other hand Africans who can maintain their traditional lifestyle maintain their dignity. By opening up their lands to foreign hunters their skills, customs, and traditions remain relevant in the modern world.

    As soon as the wildlife loses its economic value, as soon as the land can be put to a more profitable use, then the wildlife has to go. And then their skills and customs have no value.

    And then they become like Thai boy prostitutes, with no better way to make a living.

    Sorry, I can’t let so much ignorance and illogic go without comment.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  99. I luv it when HF breaks the fourth wall of his shtick and there lies beneath is a sane normal person

    EPWJ (ef2bb1)

  100. I have no interest in shooting big game. I do enjoy the hunt of a deer or elk, the meat is excellent and better for you than beef.
    I am proud to have a Caribou head hanging that my grandfather shot in Alaska in the 2o’s. Along side the first Northern Pike I speared ice fishing in a dark house. With a couple of whitetail flanked on each side. I will never starve to death. On the farm we only shoot the old Bucks as they tend to have a barbaric death in bad winters.

    mg (31009b)

  101. The reason those 30,000 Zimbabwe death squad victims aren’t important is that the shooters were black. But let a white guy shoot a lion…..

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  102. Being an arrogant uber macho a-hole doesn’t benefit your case in the slightest Steve57. You went so far off the reservation with that bloviation that I had to quit reading. It’s just like baiting fish? Really? I do not oppose honest hunting or fishing. I have fished (not very successfully). My dad was a decent hunter and If he were alive he’d be revolted to the core by this case along with every Wisconsin/Indiana/Illinois hunter I personally know and have spoken with about this. When your true colors come shining through they are very ugly colors, indeed, Navy man.

    Thanks for the dose of sanity, mg. You are a good man.

    elissa (ea00c1)

  103. I don’t care for hunting, but that is because I am squeamish. And a hypocrite, since I eat meat.

    I have many relatives who hunt, some of whom use bow and arrow against wild pigs.

    I think most of us have a reflexive reaction to issues today. Me, too.

    Hunting lions? Not something I want to do. I also don’t want to kitesurf.

    Not trying to stir things up, but Steve’s comment brought this to mind:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEKcAL0Kplc

    I wouldn’t want to do it beyond my squeamishness. It doesn’t look safe.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  104. 103. …Trump has claimed that he hunted with the proper game scout accompaniment and ensured that the meat was made available for consumption by local residents who needed good protein. In a letter published on March 27, the Director-General of the Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority, V. Chadenga, called the charges against the Trumps “baseless” and said, “Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump hunted legally during their visit to Zimbabwe.”

    He also noted there was never an “investigation” of the Trump’s hunt and that they hunted with a “registered outfitter” and were accompanied by “game rangers”.

    happyfeet (a037ad) — 7/30/2015 @ 12:06 pm

    I love all the scare quotes. I guess like nk you think Africans are a bunch of naked savages, too.

    Yes, in Zimbabwe outfitters and professional hunters are registered and licensed. And you do have to be accompanied by a government game ranger, who observes and makes sure everything is done legally. At least when hunting on land leased from the government. That’s one reason why the government places a 2%-4% levy on the daily rates and trophy fees; to pay for the ranger’s time.

    And sometimes it’s not a matter of making the game available to local residents. There’s no choice; it’s the law.

    I went on a problem animal control hunt in Zimbabwe a few years ago. It wasn’t a trophy hunt, so I paid no trophy fees. Consequently I couldn’t keep a hair of the crop raiding elephant I shot. It was one of a group of three young bulls. The other two got the message and left that particular district. The government got the tusks, and the locals got everything else.

    And no I didn’t just take the first shot and then the PH did the rest of the shooting. Most PHs won’t shoot your animal even if you ask him or her to. And I didn’t ask. They’ll only shoot to protect human life or to prevent a dangerous animal from getting away wounded and angry. Which again is a threat to human life.

    Not that some elephants aren’t just naturally bad tempered. While I was there one of villagers got killed by an elephant. One night the villager was walking back from the local shabeen, or liquor store/bar, and the elephant was coming the other way on the same road. They got a little to close to each other and the elephant beat the man to death by grabbing his legs and whacking him against the ground until the guy was pulverized. There was nothing left to show the guy ever existed except a torn up, bloody patch of road and a pair of empty, bloody jeans the elephant threw into the bushes after he was done. The elephant did all that without even breaking stride.

    In addition to the crop raiding and destruction, that’s another reason the locals are not fond of elephants. So, again, I have to wonder how universally loved that lion was.

    One of the reasons the government opened up problem animal control hunting to foreign hunters is because the local game rangers (the tribal or communal rangers especially) are lousy shots. It’s not their fault; rifle ammo in general and “elephant rifle” ammo in particular is prohibitively expensive all over Africa. So they can’t afford to practice shooting. So what they do is go into the fields at night when the elephants are there, shoot at the elephant, then run away. There are really only two places you can shoot an elephant that are consistently fatal, and those targets are tiny. If you put a bullet anywhere else it could heal, and only P.O. the elephant. And if you P.O. an elephant there is no animal on earth that can do more about it.

    Which is why I didn’t commit suicide by going into that field of corn taller than I am on a moonless night to confront three bull elephants. Which didn’t make the locals happy. They were apoplectic about their crops being destroyed. But being sane I waited until daylight to track the elephants. Which wasn’t hard as all the farmers were happy to tell me which way it went so I could shoot it. Have I mentioned they’re not very fond of elephants?

    And I did feel pretty good about what I did. For most of the rest of the trip we just drove around sightseeing, particularly at Lake Kariba National Park. And for miles around I’d pass villages and individual farms where I saw racks of elephant meat cut into strips and drying on racks into biltong (sort of African jerky). They ate as much of the meat fresh, and were preserving the rest. I did feed hundreds of people, and for a very long time.

    The only other animal I shot on that trip was an impala. And that’s because the district headman asked us to harvest some antelope for a holiday feast. I did keep the horns, though, but they’re not trophy horns as in huge and going into some record book. It’s like shooting a forkhorn buck for meat, and keeping the antlers even though they’re nothing special.

    So why should there be an investigation of either Trumps’ or my hunt? All the paperwork was in order. All the fees were paid. The government scout said everything was done in accordance with the law. And the people were fed. There is no evidence of wrongdoing.

    It’s the fact that the environazis always accuse people of wrongdoing when they catch wind of some high profile hunt, no matter what the facts are, that make me suspect this story about “Cecil.” Zimbabwe’s most beloved lion except nobody ever heard of him until groups like PETA decided to make an issue of it.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  105. oh. all that part i just copy pasted from wiki Mr. 57

    i really only knew a little about Mr. Trump’s daughter – i didn’t know anything about his sons, but elissa got me curious

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  106. 109. …When your true colors come shining through they are very ugly colors, indeed, Navy man…

    elissa (ea00c1) — 7/30/2015 @ 1:44 pm

    Funny. The people I’ve fed when I couldn’t eat all the meat myself don’t think by true colors are ugly.

    And that would include food banks, African villagers, and rural Alaskan villagers who got the donated meat.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  107. kishnevi (91d5c6) — 7/29/2015 @ 7:04 pm

    one lion is killed and “everyone freaks out”.

    Because more people know about the lion.

    Or a least, more people know only about the lion, and are otherwise very ignorant, otherwise they wouldn’t be blaming the hunter, but they’d be blaming the guides.

    Sammy Finkelman (8bf66e)

  108. Three blind elephants came upon a human being for the first time. They gathered close and felt the strange creature with their snouts.
    The first blind elephant said, “A human being is thin and stands on its hind legs.”
    The second said, “A human being is flat and mushy.”
    The third said, “Yeah, my bad.”

    nk (dbc370)

  109. #95 On second thought ropelight, how cool would it have been for the dentist’s office to receive a worn out zoo lion via Fed Ex just as the PETA people started up with the bulhorn?

    Oh look he’s precious. And GENTLE as a house cat.

    They’d totally forget “What’s It’s Name?” the lion back in Africa.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  110. There is something about wanton cruelty to animals that sets people off, and it has for a long time.

    There was a man who was head of arson investigation in New York for about 30 years in the early 1900s. The case that “made him” was an insurance scam involving a stable. The crooks insured a bunch of valuable blood horses, then substituted a lot of crowbaits. They had the stable set up to burn, even dousing the horses with kerosene, when the investigator busted them red-handed. He noted later that the public anger over this plot exceeded even the reaction to arson attacks on tenement buildings full of sleeping families.

    Rich Rostrom (d2c6fd)

  111. I find nothing ugly in Steve57’s true colors. I also don’t think mockery is called for when he is quite apparently the most knowledgeable person regarding African hunts on this blog. You wouldn’t catch me hunting that game and I’ve hunted men in war. Those animals are smart and dangerous as hell. And they know their turf a whole lot better than any man regardless of how he’s armed.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  112. a dingo ate my baby

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  113. happyfeet, a ding bat ate your baby!

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  114. it’s the circle of life Mr. Reverend

    kinda gives you goosebumps huh

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  115. Rev. Barack–my father when he was sending me off to college warned me, “honey, always beware the fella who tries to convince you he is the smartest guy in the room-especially if he thinks he is the smartest guy in the room. Because he’s almost certainly not.” That advice has served me well in real life and I use that as radar on blogs too. I had our current president pegged a mile away using my dad’s criteria, btw.

    My dad also urged me not to willingly put myself in situations where unexpected or bad things can happen. I would say rich people activities such as climbing Mt Everest or “hunting” big game in foreign and unstable countries would fall into that category. And, as far as the dentist is concerned he forgot a very important thing about spending 50 grand. Caveat Emptor.

    Just my 2 cents.

    elissa (2b2a11)

  116. What pisses me off is the assertion that the Great White Hunters are preserving the animals when they’re the ones who drove them into near extinction by turning them into billiard balls, umbrella stands, rugs, coats, knife handles, and sjamboks. Not the Masai with their rites of passage, or farmers protecting their herds and crops.

    nk (dbc370)

  117. there’s a restaurant here called Everest i just googled it today

    it’s fancy and very frenchy-french and it seems like a lot of people haven’t heard of it

    is very high in the air

    it’s one of those place i think i’d only ever take someone from out of town to

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  118. You value something, doesn’t matter what, putting a number o it, then the natives will start protecting the source of, in this case lions.

    What’s hard to understand about that?

    NK There was an issue of NatGeo which featured an aerial survey of the degraded condition (ie obviously altered due to human habitation) of Africa. There wasn’t a patch of land outside of the Sahara that wasn’t heavily trodded by the human footprint.
    The myth is of the pristine jungle, savanna, sahel. That’s the buffalo dung.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  119. I understand where you’re coming from, elissa. I also understand your father’s advice to be very good advice. Too, I read your compassion for the lion. Still, it’s only a lion in the scheme of things. There are just so many more important matters of life and death on this green earth than a 14 year old cat. And I believe the people of Zimbabwe have many more pressing issues. I know in America we can pontificate about lions, the gender of Bruce Jenner, baking wedding cakes and whether America should still be referred to as America. Those poor folks don’t enjoy those luxuries. They were not subjugated by the settlement of the White Devils with their Constitutions, Bibles and Capitalism. They just need a meal, fewer mosquitoes and a tetanus shot.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  120. Rev. @117, thanks for the kind words. I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily the most knowledgeable about hunting in Africa, but I have hunted in a couple of different countries. And I know enough to do my due diligence, particularly regarding obeying the law.

    I once had a landowner try to encourage me to shoot a leopard after legal shooting hours (in some countries you can shoot a leopard at night; I was not in one of those countries). I flat refused. First it would have been unethical as well as illegal. And even if I weren’t caught locally, or if the violation only resulted in a fine in that country, if I tried to import any part of that leopard back to the states I would have been violating the Lacey Act. It is a federal felony to engage in international or interstate trade in fish and wildlife when those fish or animals have been taken in violation of any rule or regulation no matter how minor.

    So if you bring a catfish that doesn’t quite meet the size regulations from Louisiana to Texas, you just committed a felony by bringing it across state lines.

    The interesting thing about hunting African lions is that not even an Obama appointee can say it is categorically a bad idea. The fact is, when it’s legally done, the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

    http://twitchy.com/2015/07/29/do-you-know-who-thinks-hunting-african-lions-is-a-good-idea-the-obama-administration-thats-who/

    …With all the talk over the death of Cecil the lion in Zimbabwe, here are a few facts to keep in mind.

    For starters, the African lion is not yet covered by the Endangered Species Act. However, the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service did propose in October 2014 that it be added to the list due to “habitat loss, loss of prey and increased human-lion conflicts.”

    Activists took to Twitter earlier this year in an effort to raise awareness and get lions on the list, but there’s been no final decision yet as far as we can tell:

    Note that sport hunting of lions is not among those factors. It’s local human pressure on lions that are the main threat, and because sport hunting pumps hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars into the economy that reduces the local human pressure. They see real economic benefits to keeping the lions and other animals around, and even if some people don’t (a Mozambican poacher crossing into Zimbabwe doesn’t care how much local Zimbabweans benefit) the authorities do.

    Which is why, as I said earlier, game rangers in Zambia and Tanzania shoot poachers on sight.

    As the USFWS explains in more detail if you follow the links to their FAQs (non-copyrighted USG information):

    Why is the Service proposing to list African lions as threatened?
    After reviewing the best scientific and commercial data available, the Service found the lion is impacted by a number of factors actively contributing to its population decline throughout Africa. The three main factors are habitat loss (fragmentation and degradation), loss of prey base and human-lion conflict.

    In the past several decades, an expanding human population has led to large decreases in lion habitat, and likely lion numbers, resulting in an extremely large reduction in the species’ range. As the human population continues to rise, the amount of land required to meet its needs is constantly increasing. Human settlements and agricultural and pastoral activities have expanded into lion habitat and even protected areas, increasing exposure of livestock and humans to lions. Additionally, lion prey is being depleted due to competition for bushmeat by humans. Because many wildlife species are being depleted, lions have turned to livestock and humans as an alternative food source. This human-lion conflict and associated pre-emptive and retaliatory killing of lions by humans is the greatest threat to remaining lion populations.

    The African lion is widespread throughout a large range and exists in 10 strongholds containing approximately 24,000 lions (70 percent of the current African lion population). Most lion populations in protected areas of eastern and southern Africa have been essentially stable over the last three decades. However, because the majority of the human population’s livelihoods within the lion’s range depend on agriculture and livestock, loss and degradation of lion habitat is expected to accompany rapid human population growth. Given the predicted rapid increase in human population in Africa by 2050, we can expect habitat loss, prey availability and human-lion conflict to continue and likely worsen.

    And here’s the kicker. Even if African lions are placed on the Endangered Species list, Americans who legally sport hunt them will still be able to import the skins, etc.

    If this proposal is finalized, will a permit be required to import a sport-hunted African lion trophy?

    Yes. If finalized, the proposed 4(d) rule for African lions will require issuance of a permit from the Service for the import of a sport-hunted African lion trophy. While there is evidence that many of the range countries have implemented or will implement best management practices, the Service wants to promote those practices to the extent it can. By requiring import permits, we can ensure these imports enhance the conservation of the African lion in the range countries by supporting well-managed, scientifically based conservation programs that include trophy hunting of lions…

    What criteria must be met for the Service to consider issuing a permit for the import of a sport-hunted African lion trophy?

    The permitting program would allow importation of sport-hunted African lion trophies only from range countries that have management plans that are based on scientifically sound data and are being implemented to address the threats that are facing lions within that country.

    Such management plans would be expected to address, but are not limited to, evaluating population levels and trends; the biological needs of the species; quotas; management practices; legal protection; local community involvement; and use of hunting fees for conservation. In evaluating these factors, we will work closely with the range countries and interested parties to obtain the best available scientific and commercial data. By allowing entry into the United States of African lion trophies from range countries that have scientifically based management plans, the range countries would be encouraged to adopt and financially support the sustainable management of lions that benefits both the species and local communities.

    Why has the Service decided to allow the hunting of threatened African lions?

    The Service is not allowing hunting of African lions through this proposed rule. Hunting, or take, of a wholly foreign species in its native country is not regulated by the ESA because the action is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Regardless of U.S. import regulations, sport hunters are able to participate in African lion hunts in countries that allow it. However, many African lions are taken by U.S. hunters, and conditioning the continued importation of sport-hunted trophies upon a demonstration that they originate from a country with a scientifically sound management program will encourage effective management for the species in the wild. In addition, a scientifically based management plan that includes sport hunting will likely provide economic incentives for the range country and local communities to protect and expand lion populations and habitat.

    My true colors are that I’ve been a member of Ducks Unlimited since I was eleven. And working and paying to maintain duck habitat in part of the country that has turned most of that habitat into housing developments.

    I can picture most of residents of those housing tracts thinking I’m the @$$whole when they hear to sound of shotguns out on what remains of the marsh. The truth is if anyone is the @$$whole it’s them for destroying the habitat.

    The same thing is going on in Africa. People have to live, and if people can’t live the old way they’ll find a new way to live and that’s bad for the lions, the rest of the wildlife, and the land.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  121. 122. What pisses me off is the assertion that the Great White Hunters are preserving the animals when they’re the ones who drove them into near extinction by turning them into billiard balls, umbrella stands, rugs, coats, knife handles, and sjamboks. Not the Masai with their rites of passage, or farmers protecting their herds and crops.

    nk (dbc370) — 7/30/2015 @ 3:20 pm

    Things can change in a century, nk. You really ought to try to keep up to date.

    Now things are the other way around; it’s the locals protecting their herds and crops, and killing lion prey for bush meat, and forcing the lions to turn to livestock and humans as prey, prompting the locals to kill the lions, that are driving the lions into actual extinction.

    Regardless of whether or not it was the Great White Hunters who were the problem 75 or a hundred years ago. And it is the Great White Hunters who brought those animals back from near extinction, and preserving them now.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  122. Steve is long winded though. Man took me five minutes to scroll past. Just through the book next time.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  123. 126 – Steve57
    In the last 25 years s.w. mn. Farmers have put more land into wildlife habitat. Low land is not worth running tile if the govt. gives a reasonable subsidy, which of course they do. I have little problem with taxes going for wildlife habitat.

    mg (31009b)

  124. Mr. geoff did an insightful comment

    geoffb says July 30, 2015 at 6:19 pm

    There is a forgotten lion in this too. The one that wasn’t killed by the dentist because he killed the one he did. There was going to be a lion killed anyway.

    happyfeet (831175)

  125. Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas…

    Gazzer (f205c8)

  126. What was he doing in your pajamas, GrouchoGazzer?

    nk (dbc370)

  127. thank you, elissa.

    mg (31009b)

  128. Thank nk.

    Gazzer (f205c8)

  129. White Dentist Black Heart

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  130. And there have been 460 animal attacks in ximbabwe, re reuters

    narciso (ee1f88)

  131. Nine people were reported killed in Chicago in the last week.. No lions so we won’t hear about it.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  132. Too, I read your compassion for the lion. Still, it’s only a lion in the scheme of things. There are just so many more important matters of life and death on this green earth than a 14 year old cat.

    Misplaced and excessive compassion — or “feelings….nothing more than feelings…” masquerading as really meaningful sympathy — is the most perverse and idiotic aspect of today’s world of politics and culture in the Western World. It’s the incubator of political correctness run amok. It’s the flip side of what goes on in the sharia-berserk world of the Middle East.

    The two groups should be placed in a Mad-Max-Thunderdome situation (“two men enter, one man leaves”) and neither side deserves to come out the winner.

    Mark (f32097)

  133. @136, at least that many, narciso.

    When somebody wander off into the bush, never comes back, and nobody can find a trace of that person you can’t say it was an animal that killed him.

    Especially if it’s crocodile, and nobody sees it when it happens. And the croc population in the Zambezi River, its tributaries, and Lake Kariba has exploded in recent years.

    http://www.thezimbabwean.co/news/zimbabwe-news/72852/crocodiles-terrorise-kariba.html

    The number of crocodiles has been increasing for years, as have the numbers of people killed and maimed by the beasts. Tourists, resort operators and locals are urging the Department of National Parks and Wildlife Management to cull the teeming reptiles, which they say have become larger and bolder. They are now tailing cruising vessels and seizing on every opportunity to kill fishermen and holiday makers alike.

    There has been a number of incidents in recent weeks when crocodiles killed locals, fishermen and tourists…

    I’ve heard reliable scientists estimate that if you took every croc out of Lake Kariba and lined them up from nose to tail they’d go around the entire length of the shoreline. And at 140 miles long and 25 miles wide it’s the largest man-made lake in the world.

    Seems a bit on the high side to me, but when I was there a few year ago I saw crocs everywhere I looked.

    …The increase in the numbers is blamed on National Parks, which forces crocodile farmers to release 10% of hatchlings into the wild…

    Yeah, I think they can stop doing that now.

    I can’t believe people water ski in that lake. But I suppose you have to be a bit of a fatalist to be an African, black or white, as so many things can kill you.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  134. http://news.yahoo.com/lion-zimbabweans-ask-amid-global-cecil-circus-140822692.html

    ‘What lion?’ Zimbabweans ask, amid global Cecil circus

    HARARE (Reuters) – As social media exploded with outrage this week at the killing of Cecil the lion, the untimely passing of the celebrated predator at the hands of an American dentist went largely unnoticed in the animal’s native Zimbabwe.

    “What lion?” acting information minister Prisca Mupfumira asked in response to a request for comment about Cecil…

    …For most people in the southern African nation, where unemployment tops 80 percent and the economy continues to feel the after-effects of billion percent hyperinflation a decade ago, the uproar had all the hallmarks of a ‘First World Problem’.

    I’m going to show my “true colors;” I have far more respect for the opinions of the Africans than urban Americans on these matters. Far, far more respect, as urban Americans and Europeans almost universally don’t know what they are talking about.

    “Why are the Americans more concerned than us?” said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. “We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange.”

    So apparently Cecil the lion was universally loved. By inhabitants of concrete jungles in first world countries where they don’t have to live with lions, rich white eco-tourists who are guarded by armed guides to keep them safe from “loveable” lions like Cecisl, and scientists from first world countries.

    But not by the people who have to live with lions, know they’re not loveable, don’t give them cute names, and don’t have armed guards to protect them.

    Some lives matter, some lives don’t, and clearly African lives only matter if they belong to lions and not people.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  135. http://www.crocodile-attack.info/

    CrocBITE
    Worldwide Crocodilian Attack Database

    …However, several hundred attacks on humans by crocodilians are reported annually, both non-fatal and fatal. Non-fatal attacks may also be debilitating. This “human crocodile conflict” (HCC) is increasing each year as crocodile populations recover from decades of overhunting, and human populations continue to grow and encroach upon crocodile habitat. This competition for resources between crocodiles and humans is of serious conservation concern.

    …Although this is an ongoing and regularly updated project, attack reporting and record-keeping is highly variable across many different countries, and hence the database does not pretend to be complete.

    …Most recent Incidents

    Shows most recent reports entered in the system. Reflects the activity level of reporting sources, not the level of crocodile activity.

    I mentioned @139, rape isn’t the most under reported type of attack. Animal attacks in Africa are (and admittedly parts of Asia, and other remote locations; the kind of remote locations that have large dangerous animals).

    Not even the researchers at Charles Darwin University, who founded the CrocBITE website, pretend their database is remotely complete. The unusually honest article I cited @140 quoted statistics concerning croc attacks in Zimbabwe from CrocBITE but had to note that those statistics are a “massive underrepresentation.”

    There are nearly 200 reported and recorded crocodile fatalities in subsaharan Africa between January 2013 and May 2015. That doesn’t include reported and recorded attacks that were non-fatal (but debilitating, usually involving lost limbs) or the results were unknown. So we can be certain the tally is several orders of magnitude higher in reality.

    The same goes for lion, leopard, elephant, buffalo, and hippo attacks. Most of them aren’t reported or recorded either. People just disappear into the bush and never come back, and no remains are found.

    So naturally when Zimbabweans find out the first world has a problem with a lion being killed, but not them, they’re ticked off. They’re also upset that somebody named this cat. Like it’s some cuddly pet, instead of a lethally dangerous animal. And that the only name of any African killed in Zimbabwe that Americans and Europeans know of just some geriatric feline. Nobody can name any human killed in the past year in Zimbabwe.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  136. http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/travel/ct-trav-0524-world-watch-20150520-story.html

    Lion attacks mean no more going it alone in Zimbabwe park

    By Larry Habegger, Dani Burlison Chicago Tribune

    May 20, 2015, 10:39 A.M.

    Zimbabwe: National Parks and Wildlife Authority announced that tourists visiting Mana Pools National Park no longer will be allowed to walk freely in the park. Visitors will be required to hire an armed ranger to accompany them for $25, and anyone caught without a ranger will be fined. Although tourist deaths in the region are rare, some visitors have disappeared or were killed by lions in recent years, one reason the new restrictions have been implemented.

    1. Local villagers are killed far more frequently then tourists.
    2. Note they say “in the region” and not “in the park.” Because lions like “loveable” ol’ Cecil don’t have to be “lured” from the park. Park lions leave all the time and kill people “in the region.”
    3. When people disappear the authorities don’t record it as a fatal animal attack, but everybody knows that’s almost always what it is, especially when it’s a local who has lived there since birth and isn’t going to get lost and die.
    4. The authorities don’t want to mention any of this because they’re like the mayor in “Jaws;” they play down any threat because they want the tourists to think the beach is safe.
    5. The fact the Zim National Parks and Wildlife Authority implemented this measure means there’s far more to this than the brief explanation in this blurb in the Chicago Tribune.
    6. I’ve been providing that context.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  137. Cecil is an obvious choice for a name picked on the spur of the moment, if someone were looking to start a PR campaign.
    Is this lion’s last name Richards? You have to wonder since this famous lion isn’t actually famous.
    Not in his home. And not abroad until after he was dead.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  138. Are we sure there was a lion? Did anyone see the corpse?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  139. He’s all over Google images with a lion, a leopard, a rhino, an eland, and one that I don’t recognize. Photoshops?

    nk (dbc370)

  140. Steve57, I saw this and thought of you. I don’t hunt, and have never been to Africa. Is the article accurate?

    http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/lion-murderer-walt-palmer-has-done-more-for-conservatio-1720901473

    Simon Jester (39cb3a)

  141. The underlying facts are accurate, SJ, although the histrionics are not. The had an especially good insight about how the hunting takes place in areas where the tourists don’t go. This if for a reason. I’ve been to Lake Kariba National Park, and it’s a great place to take pictures. It’s wide open (at least the parts I visited; it’s a huge park). I must have seen dozens of elephants, hippos, and crocodiles just from the spot we stopped at to eat our picnic lunch.

    It would have been ridiculously easy to shoot any of them from where I was sitting. Which is why tourists have the idea that hunters are the equivalent of murderers. They think the hunting areas are like the national parks. They’re not. We’re talking vegetation so thick you can’t see an animal unless you walk it up. And much of that vegetation is nasty stuff. Thorn bushes and a particularly evil plant called Buffalo Bean. The seed pods are covered with tiny stinging hairs that cause you to itch uncontrollably. If you just brush up against it you’re covered with these tiny, scratching hairs and anything you do to try and stop the itching makes it worse.

    That’s why those areas aren’t part of the national parks systems. In addition to not being particularly scenic the only time you’ll see any wildlife is if they cross the road right in front of you, which is pure luck. That’s the only time they’re in the open.

    You can either do to things with that land. Clear it for farming, or allow hunting. Usually both is going on in the same area. I hunted on tribal land. Indeed, is people weren’t living and farming their there would be no problem animals to control. But if the locals didn’t get something out of hunting they’d never tolerate any of those animals. From the article I linked to @140:

    …As with many countries in Africa, in Zimbabwe big wild animals such as lions, elephants or hippos are seen either as a potential meal, or a threat to people and property that needs to be controlled or killed…

    This is why I noted @59 that Kenya banned hunting in the late 1970s and while you can still find wildlife, you have to go to the National Parks to find it. Large wild animals don’t exist, in any significant numbers, outside the parks. The people won’t tolerate it. On the other hand where hunting is allowed, and the locals get something out of it, they see wildlife as a benefit.

    http://www.globaleye.org.uk/archive/summer2k/focuson/mars_pt1.html

    Case Study: CAMPFIRE, Zimbabwe

    Almost 5 million people live in arid and semi-arid communal lands covering almost half of Zimbabwe. Despite the dryness and difficult conditions, a wide range of wildlife is also found here. CAMPFIRE (Communal Areas Management Programme for Indigenous Resources) is a programme designed to assist rural development and conservation. It works with the people who live in these communal lands, supporting the use of wildlife as an important natural resource. CAMPFIRE is helping people in these areas manage the environment in ways which are both sustainable and appropriate.

    National Parks

    …Some animal species have prospered so much in the protected areas that they are causing serious environmental damage e.g. elephants. Some species are also suffering genetic problems because of inbreeding.

    … However, animals frequently roam outside Park boundaries,

    Yeah, “Cecil” had to be “lured” out of Hwange National Park. That’s a laugh. If that lion had to be “lured” out of the park he’s probably the only lion in the history of Zimbabwe who had to be “lured” out.

    …destroying crops and killing livestock and sometimes people. This has created much conflict between local people and National Park staff, often resulting in illegal hunting. Local people generally consider wildlife to be a nuisance, not a resource…

    …CAMPFIRE – raising awareness and raising money

    The CAMPFIRE movement, designed and managed entirely by Africans, began in the mid 1980’s. It encourages local communities to make their own decisions about wildlife management and control. It aims to help people manage natural resources so that plants, animals and people – the whole ecosystem – all benefit. It helps provide legal ways for such communities to raise money by using local, natural resources in a sustainable way.

    … Five main activities help provide extra income to local communities:

    Trophy hunting: About 90% of CAMPFIRE’s income comes from selling hunting concessions to professional hunters and safari operators working to set government quotas. Individual hunters pay high fees to shoot elephant (US$12,000) and buffalo and are strictly monitored, accompanied by local, licensed professionals. Trophy hunting is considered to be the ultimate form of ecotourism, as hunters usually travel in small groups, demand few amenities, cause minimal damage to the local ecosystem, yet provide considerable income…

    So, yeah, that “@$$whole” Palmer has done more for wildlife than Piers Morgan or any of his critics. Without legal trophy hunting these communal lands would be entirely devoted to subsistence farming and raising cattle and goats. And there would be no room for the wildlife. Hence, no large wildlife. Just animals that can go unnoticed living among people like bushbuck, or small enough that the people don’t think they’re dangerous.

    But you don’t need to go to Africa to witness this dynamic. Just look to the reintroduction of wolves into western states like Montana or Wyoming and see the conflicts between the environazis and local ranchers and residents. The “shoot, shovel, and shut up” attitude the locals have toward wolves when they’re entirely protected. The successful push by states to get hunting seasons, in large part because that’s the only way the locals will tolerate wolves.

    You can see it all right here at home.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  142. Just my unsolicited and unworthy opinion, but elissa you owe Steve an apology, and tuition for the education here.

    Steven Malynn (4bc33a)

  143. part of the same pattern

    http://www.weaselzippers.us/230508-beyond-pathetic-hillary-says-names-of-race-baiting-saints-trayvon-martin-eric-garner-must-be-emblazoned-on-our-hearts/

    of course the real innocent victims, would run the length of her speech, Mayor Carcettis, the Medici and keep on after that,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  144. every time they present their narratives, there is information missing,

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md-gray-sanctions-evidence-20150730-story.html#page=1

    narciso (ee1f88)

  145. I need to correct one thing. The name of the national park adjacent on the shore of Lake Kariba is Matusadona.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  146. Cecil was named for Cecil Rhodes.

    I appreciate your concern for Steve57’s tender sensibilities, Steve Malynn. Mr. 57 is a smart man who loves to “educate” but he is also well known on this blog for sometimes choosing to “educate” only the part of the story he wants to push. And while he hates “the thought police” and takes great umbrage when he thinks someone’s telling him what to do, he has no compunction about telling other people what they should think or insulting them if they do not think exactly as he does. So I’ll pass on any apology. But don’t worry. He’s a big boy and I’m sure he can handle my and others’ counter/additional arguments and different viewpoints on this.

    Callous waste and wanton cruelty whether involving humans or animals is one of my biggest frustrations and is an instant hot button. The luring and two days-long slow death of this animal for tourist trophy is in the same depraved ballpark as dog fighting as far as I am concerned. It’s not compassion for this single African lion I’m expressing. It’s what his utterly unfair fight murder represents and symbolizes –that too many people (as Dana said above) have seemingly lost their way.

    Oh and by the way, Cecil (who some continue to need to insist was not known or important before his death) was apparently collared, and since 2007 was part of an Oxford University study.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/cecil-the-lion-killing-conservation-project-receives-320000-in-donations-since-popular-animals-death-10429667.html

    elissa (2173db)

  147. this is the only link I could find before this week:

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10592-014-0571-6

    narciso (ee1f88)

  148. I had to actively search lions in hwangi to find this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUeDrUOmHvw

    narciso (ee1f88)

  149. We built a house for a retired federal judge who was a big game hunter. Ibex, water buffalo, rhino heads were hung. Polar bear and grizzly bear rugs, with a coffee table book of “Vanishing Africa”. This freak also had dining room chairs made of young pony hide from Italy. Common place amongst the well to do hacks.

    mg (31009b)

  150. 152. …but he is also well known on this blog for sometimes choosing to “educate” only the part of the story he wants to push…

    Well then, elissa, why don’t you tell everyone the other part of the story about the importance of trophy hunting to local communities. And excuse me but telling you what organizations from the USFS (@126) to the World Wildlife Fund have to say on the matter is not the same as telling you what to think.

    The international WWF’s general position:

    Q. What is WWF’s position on trophy hunting

    WWF does not promote or support hunting generally and is opposed to hunting that threatens species or habitat sustainability. At the same time, WWF recognises that communities use their wildlife and these uses include hunting and fishing.

    As a leading conservation organisation, WWF works to address illegal or unsustainable exploitation of wildlife. Within this framework, WWF accepts or supports hunting in a very limited number of contexts where it is culturally appropriate, legal and effectively regulated, and has demonstrated environmental and community benefits.

    And here’s what the former head of the WWF’s South African chapter, zoologist John Hanks, had to say on the matter:

    http://www.voanews.com/content/does-trophy-hunting-save-south-african-wildlife/2406005.html

    Tourism and donations do not come close to covering the billions of dollars needed, says zoologist John Hanks, former head of the World Wildlife Fund’s South Africa chapter.

    “I think trophy hunting in South Africa is absolutely essential if we are going to look for long-term future for rhinos in the whole of Africa,” Hanks said. “… There’s hardly a single country anywhere that can afford to run its national parks as they should be run. … Here we are in South Africa, one of the richest countries in the continent, Kruger Park has a million visitors a year and [it] still cannot afford to defend the rhinos.

    Around 9,000 trophy hunters travel to South Africa annually – 90 percent of them from the United States. In 2012, foreign hunters spent $115 million in South Africa, where the hunting industry as a whole brings in more than $744 million annually and employs 70,000 people. It is the single most lucrative form of commercial land use.

    The international organization would lose its wealthy first world donors if it enthusiastically supported trophy hunting. The kind of people who are hysterical over “Cecil.” But the closer to the problem one is, the more enthusiastically these groups support it.

    Oh and by the way, Cecil (who some continue to need to insist was not known or important before his death) was apparently collared, and since 2007 was part of an Oxford University study.

    elissa (2173db) — 7/31/2015 @ 5:20 pm

    That’s not what I said, so if that’s in reference to me you’re twisting my words. Here’s what I said on the matter:

    55. …I have to wonder just how universally loved that lion was.

    I’m sure tourists and the scientists loved the cat. But the locals living around national parks in Africa tend not to be too fond of predators that kill their livestock, or large herbivores trampling, eating, and destroying the crops they intended to live on for the next year.

    Steve57 (0ccd36) — 7/29/2015 @ 10:12 pm

    112. …It’s the fact that the environazis always accuse people of wrongdoing when they catch wind of some high profile hunt, no matter what the facts are, that make me suspect this story about “Cecil.” Zimbabwe’s most beloved lion except nobody ever heard of him until groups like PETA decided to make an issue of it.

    Steve57 (0ccd36) — 7/30/2015 @ 1:52 pm

    He wasn’t Zimbabwe’s most beloved lion. Zimbabwean’s not only didn’t love him, they didn’t know he existed.

    From your link:

    …The much-loved animal was a local favourite and was found skinned near the Hwange National Park where he lived.

    …They had studied Zimbabwe’s most famous lion since 2008 and said his death was “deeply reprehensible”.

    None of that is true. Not in Zimbabwe. He would have to be known locally, in Zimbabwe, for him to be the local favorite. And he was an unknown.

    He was almost universally unknown internationally. But I did have something to say about who did know and love “Cecil.”

    140. …So apparently Cecil the lion was universally loved. By inhabitants of concrete jungles in first world countries where they don’t have to live with lions, rich white eco-tourists who are guarded by armed guides to keep them safe from “loveable” lions like Cecisl, and scientists from first world countries.

    But not by the people who have to live with lions, know they’re not loveable, don’t give them cute names, and don’t have armed guards to protect them.

    Some lives matter, some lives don’t, and clearly African lives only matter if they belong to lions and not people.
    Steve57 (0ccd36) — 7/30/2015 @ 11:52 pm

    As is usually the case, liberals live in an opposite universe. It’s been made very clear that the reason people who absolutely hate Palmer do so because he’s rich and white, and he killed an animal. Thus he represents the worst of privilege, speciesism, imperialism, and colonialism.

    But who is really the imperialist? I’d say it’s the wealthy white first worlders who are arrogating the right to speak for Zimbabweans and declare “Cecil” the “local favorite.” If you asked Zimbabweans you get a different answer. Apparently their opinion, like their lives, don’t count. In fact, if anything it’s the national parks that are vestiges of colonialism. Most of the people living around the parks used to live or are the descendents of those who lived inside the parks.

    They got pushed out to the marginal lands that wasn’t good enough to be part of the park. From my link @147:

    …Many local people were evicted from their homes when the Parks were created. Most now live in the surrounding communal lands. They are no longer permitted to hunt the animals and harvest the plants now found inside protected areas…

    And they resent the h3ll out of this. But for the convenience and pleasure of wealthy, mostly white foreigners, the locals had to go. And these envirocolonialists still think the have the right to boss the “naked savages” (as nk put it) around and tell them what to do with their lands.

    Such as to stop all hunting and create more national parks. Which puts more land off limits and hurts the locals in various ways. But the wealthy, mostly white, foreigners don’t care as long as they have pristine spots where they can vacation and pat themselves on their backs and congratulate themselves for their concern and their environmentalism.

    Meanwhile, if you go their to hunt it’s on the terms of the locals who live where you want to hunt, if it’s in a communal area. Hardly the colonialist attitude the environazis have toward the locals and the wildlife.

    None of this should be taken as a defense of Dr. Palmer. In my first post on this thread I said he should have done his due diligence; that there should have been no question about the legality of the hunt. I’m content to wait for the facts to come out, and the facts may prove he hunted illegally and unethically.

    What I’ve been defending throughout this thread is the practice of big game hunting in Africa when done legally and ethically.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  151. do you compose on note pad, I have to put up one link at a time,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  152. It’s what his utterly unfair fight murder represents and symbolizes –that too many people (as Dana said above) have seemingly lost their way.

    I’d say that Dana was focusing on all the people out there who place animals on an equal footing with humans (ie, to anthropomorphize them) and become emotionally more weepy over killed animals than murdered humans, all while thinking such reactions are a sign of a person’s great compassion, noble sophistication and wonderful humanity.

    (I raised the specter of Adolph Hitler’s love of animals and embrace of animal rights to dispel that positive assumption or to illustrate how weirdly corrupt and ironic an animal-lover’s mindset can become, more so in 2015 than ever before)

    Mark (f32097)

  153. R.I.P. “Rowdy” Roddy Piper

    Icy (941b63)

  154. Cecil was named after Cecil Rhodes famed desecrator and racist. So his Lion namesake deserved to die a slow and painful death.
    Cecil (the human) should have any remaining statues removed (I think it was in April) his likeness should disappear because humans are too fragile to face history.
    I wonder if I need to rid the area of Rhodesian Ridgeback dogs until they can be renamed Zimbabwean Lion Hounds… I’m here to help YOU with your angst

    steveg (fed1c9)

  155. R.I.P. Lynn Anderson, singer of “(I Never Promised You a) Rose Garden” fame

    Icy (941b63)

  156. So nice of this generous dentist to go to Africa on his mission of conservation! If only we had more people like him – we could preserve the African ecosystem once and for all.

    We can do all the retrospective cost-benefit analysis we want. It misses the point. The guy is an asshole because he wanted to kill a lion so that he could brag about it.

    Leviticus (eda872)

  157. A little up the thread, I linked Google images of him. They include one of him posing with a crossbow next to a rhino and another with a compound bow next to a bison. I think that’s only possible if you take the “f” out of way, even if the arrowheads contained a pint of succinylcholine. He may have tagged the animal with the bow and the guide finished it off with a .458 Weatherby Magnum. It’s not even about penis size in that case; it’s just phony bragging rights. Unless the images are phony — put up by the PETA dorks.

    nk (dbc370)

  158. Yeah, that dentist is a prince of a guy. He also has a felony in Wisconsin for illegal hunting of a bear.

    Palmer was fined $3,000 and given a year’s probation after pleading guilty to the illegal killing of a black bear in Wisconsin in 2006. Palmer had a permit to hunt bears within a certain area near Phillips, in the north of the state. But on September 1, 2006, he was part of a group of people who killed a black bear 40 miles outside this permitted zone, according to the court documents from April 2008.

    Realizing what they had done, the group agreed that “if any authorities were to ask where the bear had been killed, they would say” it was hunted within the correct area, the documents added.

    elissa (97a414)

  159. Closest I ever came to killing a lion, after a day of fishing on the American River, I nearly stepped on a rattlesnake. In the twilight, I thought it was unique looking walking stick. So I picked it up. Let it go pretty quickly when it started rattling.

    Oh and when I was fishing, I baited the hook. So unfair huh.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  160. does this mean the murderous lion-killing dentist person doesn’t get to vote?

    something tells me his sympathies lie pretty solidly with Team R but that’s just a hunch on my part

    happyfeet (831175)

  161. Oops. Forgot the connection to lion.
    Police say Mountain Lion may have killed Jogger

    COOL, CALIF. — A mountain lion apparently attacked and killed a woman who was jogging on a rugged foothills trail. The body of Barbara Schoener, 40, was found Sunday near Cool, about 40 miles northeast of Sacramento. The body had claw marks and deputies found animal hairs that will be analyzed, said Lt. James Roloff. There were signs that her body had been dragged …

    Same trail where I almost stepped on a rattlesnake. The lion was probably watching me interact with the snake, for all I know.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  162. just hang him on the wall, and be done with him, along with the 30,000 other victims of Mugabe,

    narciso (ee1f88)

  163. Wait a minute. Palmer skipped country to hunt. Didn’t bother to get his paperwork in order.
    Nicked the beastie, and had the local wildlife tracker clean up his mess for him.

    That screams Obama Voter to me.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  164. In which we learn Leviticus doesn’t understand economics and gets his views of nature and morality from watching Disney’s “The Lion King.”

    164. So nice of this generous dentist to go to Africa on his mission of conservation! If only we had more people like him – we could preserve the African ecosystem once and for all…

    Leviticus (eda872) — 8/1/2015 @ 8:51 am

    Yes, actually that’s true Leviticus. But math is hard, isn’t it?

    http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/lion-murderer-walt-palmer-has-done-more-for-conservatio-1720901473

    Lion Murderer Walt Palmer Has Done More For Conservation Than You Have

    Lion murderer Walt Palmer is an @$$hole. But, he’s also an @$$hole who’s contributed more money to animal conservation in Africa than pretty much anyone else. In fact, trophy hunters like him are a large part of the reason we still have animals like lions at all.

    Hunting is one of those things that, if you don’t do it, probably flies in the face of your carefully curated 21st century morals. Everyone likes animals, so killing them is wrong, right? The fact is that there’s far more nuance to the argument than that…

    And then there’s trophy hunting. Which, full disclosure: I think is dumb. But, because it attaches a large economic incentive to the continued presence of animals that often live in conflict with us humans, it contributes to, if not outright ensures their survival. Let’s look at why that is.

    …Conservation Magazine studied the issue and found:

    “According to a 2005 paper by Nigel Leader-Williams and colleagues in the Journal of International Wildlife Law and Policy the answer is yes. Leader-Williams describes how the legalization of white rhinoceros hunting in South Africa motivated private landowners to reintroduce the species onto their lands. As a result, the country saw an increase in white rhinos from fewer than one hundred individuals to more than 11,000, even while a limited number were killed as trophies.”

    …Your social media outrage didn’t save the white rhino in South Africa, assholes like Walt Palmer did.

    In fact, conservation and hunting have long gone hand in hand. Noted big game hunter Teddy Roosevelt is widely considered the originator of the modern conservation movement thanks to his acknowledgement that managed use for profit, rather than simply setting aside vast tracts of land for no purpose but preservation, was a viable model for protecting our natural heritage.

    …What he and conservationists found was that, to justify its existence in the harsh reality of the human world, nature needed to economically justify its existence.

    Don’t ever let the facts get in the way of your cheaply-bought sense of moral superiority, Leviticus. It’s part of what makes you, you.

    But for anyone else who is interested, there are two groups who hate trophy hunting. Those who hate trophy hunting and reject reality in order to maintain their sense of superiority. That’s the crowd I was talking about @158:

    …And they resent the h3ll out of this. But for the convenience and pleasure of wealthy, mostly white foreigners, the locals had to go. And these envirocolonialists still think the have the right to boss the “naked savages” (as nk put it) around and tell them what to do with their lands.

    Such as to stop all hunting and create more national parks. Which puts more land off limits and hurts the locals in various ways. But the wealthy, mostly white, foreigners don’t care as long as they have pristine spots where they can vacation and pat themselves on their backs and congratulate themselves for their concern and their environmentalism…

    They simply reject the fact that reality isn’t on their side, the same way a toddler refuses to believe there’s no Santa Claus.

    Then there are people like this author, who seems OK with hunting for other reasons besides trophy hunting, or the international WWF, which doesn’t support hunting but begrudgingly admits its benefits (I noted @158 that the South African chapter of the WWF is closer to the problem and far more enthusiastic about its support).

    The locals, and rightly so, will tell rich foreigners to go screw themselves if the land they set aside for wildlife is a liability to them. It has to be an asset, or they’ll put that land to a use that is an asset. Then say bye bye to the lion, the elephant, and megafauna.

    This DR. Palmer may well be an @$$hole, which looks increasingly likely, but that would be due to the illegal nature of his hunting practices. When it’s done legally and ethically, according to fair chase rules, it’s not easy and in the case of dangerous animals like lions and elephants it’s not nearly as safe as you imagine.

    The tale of the White Rhino provides a nice segue to mention the fact that hunters will pay a lot of money not just because they want to kill something, or have a trophy to hang on the wall, but to fund conservation programs.

    A couple of months ago a hunter was in the news because he paid $350,000 at a Dallas Safari Club auction to hunt a Black Rhino in Namibia.

    The environazis and the social media animal rights warriors went nuts. How dare anyone assign a price tag to such a beautiful, critically endangered animal (the lion is not endangered, by the way, it’s not on the US endangered species list; look it up). The Black Rhino is so critically endangered every individual is vitally important!

    Proving not only that they are economically illiterate but biologically illiterate as well.

    First, the Black Rhino never was totally extinct in Namibia. It was still to be found in Etosha National Park and maybe remnant populations in the Caprivi strip and Bushmanland. But the only reason it has been transplanted to parts of its former range where it hasn’t been seen in over a century is that it has become a financial asset.

    And most of that former range is private land. These are private hunting reserves, and even though they are fenced they are huge, larger than some states. The owners are just restoring the habitat in cooperation with the government. The rhinos are an asset because hunters looking for the full “Africa experience” would choose a place with rhinos over one without even though they’ll never hunt them, and these preserves get extra business from people who just want to view and photograph them.

    But as part of the management plan the Namibian government issues three permits a year to hunt Black Rhino, which generates huge sums of money in African terms which goes to relocating more Black Rhinos to other parts of its former range.

    But these permits aren’t just for any Black Rhino. They’re for geriatric males long past their prime, who have already passed on their genes and are no longer a factor in the breeding population. They are not “vitally important,” it is simply not true that every individual animal is important. These old males are a danger to the younger animals who would one day become part of the breeding population. If these old, cranky surplus males don’t gore and cripple or maybe kill them first. They have to go because they’re a menace to the herd, a biological threat.

    That’s what the environazis don’t understand. The Namibian parks and wildlife people could spend part of its meager budget culling them, or they can generate a lot of revenue to increase its budget.

    The people paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to hunt them know exactly what they’re doing. In fact, like the guy here in the US who paid $350K for his permit, they’d refuse to hunt one on the cheap precisely because the Black Rhino is so endangered.

    Most hunters really like and respect the animals we hunt.

    And remember, for all the screaming and moral posturing and self-congratulations the environazis engage in, not one of them thought of outbidding the guy who bought the permit. They could have, and just not used it if they really wanted to put their money where their mouths are. None of them ever donate $350K to the Namibian government’s Black Rhino conservation program, or offer to fund alternatives. They just make noise.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  165. I love the cut of your jib, Steve57. Once again the feel-good imbeciles of the left fail to actually understand the environment and ecosystem they preach about but as usual, fail to put their money where their mouths are. Proving they also fail the economics of the situating test. But that’s to be expected. If they understood economics they wouldn’t be leftists/democrats/liberals/progressives or whatever they’re calling themselves this week to hide in the shadows.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  166. Jericho is down, the other lion of hwangi

    narciso (b0adf2)

  167. ==Most hunters really like and respect the animals we hunt==

    And yet the dentist trophy “hunter” who is the subject of this particular discussion and who is the person you’ve been vociferously and passionately defending for several days is clearly not one of those type of careful and ethical and responsible hunters. Which is kind of an important point to weigh and consider in this particular case, isn’t it? I suspect there are many more like him than you will ever be willing to publicly admit as you wax poetic on the nobility of the hunt.

    ==This DR. Palmer may well be an @$$hole, which looks increasingly likely, but that would be due to the illegal nature of his hunting practices. When it’s done legally and ethically…==

    Thank you at least for finally noticing that it’s this, which some of us have been trying to talk about for several days.

    Love,
    Your “environazi” blog friend who fishes, whose family hunts food game, and who has three winter fur coats in her closet.

    elissa (97a414)

  168. 127. …My true colors are that I’ve been a member of Ducks Unlimited since I was eleven. And working and paying to maintain duck habitat in part of the country that has turned most of that habitat into housing developments.

    I can picture most of residents of those housing tracts thinking I’m the @$$whole when they hear to sound of shotguns out on what remains of the marsh. The truth is if anyone is the @$$whole it’s them for destroying the habitat…

    Steve57 (0ccd36) — 7/30/2015 @ 3:58 pm

    This is what I was referring to:

    https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Regions/3/Suisun-Marsh

    Suisun Marsh Habitat Management, Preservation and Restoration

    The Suisun Marsh is the largest contiguous brackish (a mixture of fresh and sea water) wetland in the western United States. The lands and waters of this unique ecosystem also are home to a wide variety of plants, fish and wildlife that depend upon a careful balancing of fresh and saline waters for their survival. It is also an important stop on the Pacific Flyway, providing food and habitat for migratory birds across the world…

    …In 2000, a joint state-federal planning group was formed to develop and implement a long-term comprehensive plan to restore ecological health and improve water management for beneficial uses of the Bay-Delta. Seven principal members of the group include: U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), National Marine Fisheries Service (NOAA Fisheries), U.S. Bureau of Reclamation (BOR), California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW), California Department of Water Resources (DWR), Delta Stewardship Council (DSC) and the Suisun Resource Conservation District.

    The bolded part is where the private landowners come in. Google the term and you’ll find this:

    In 1977, the California Legislature passed Assembly Bill 1717, the Suisun Marsh Preservation Act. This Legislation added provisions to the Public Resource Codes related to SRCD’s responsibilities over water management practices on privately owned lands within the Suisun Marsh.

    Today the District provides the landowners technical assistance in permitting, water control, and habitat management to ensure the wetland and wildlife values of the Suisun Marsh are sustained and enhanced.

    The Suisun Resource Conservation District covers over 115,000 acres which includes:

    52,000 acres of managed wetlands, 6,300 acres of unmanaged tidal wetlands, 30,000 acres of bays and sloughs, and 27,000 acres of upland grasslands.

    These private clubs have been there decades longer than this District, preserving the habitat. It wasn’t until the 70s that they recognized just how important the work we were doing was. Now the state provides technical assistance, but the private landowners do all the work. And that means the club members getting out there and doing the hard labor under the hot summer sun.

    It’s also a lot of money, which is why after almost 10 years of living in Texas I had to give it up. I couldn’t afford the dues and the fines (because I kept missing work days) when I almost never used the place. Maybe one weekend every three years. I decided my membership should go to someone who could use it, and support the place.

    I do have a couple of ducks stuffed and mounted. I’m curious if anyone thinks that feeds my ego, as if I have stories of how bravely I stood the charge of an angry Bufflehead?

    If I just wanted something to hang on the wall, there are cheaper and easier ways to do it. If I just wanted to kill something, there are cheaper and easier ways to do it. If I just wanted to eat duck, there are cheaper and easier ways to do it.

    The truth is, we all really like ducks. Yes, in the fall and winter we kill a few. We all share recipes for how to prepare them. It makes no sense to do what we do if killing and eating ducks is the goal though. When you break down the value of our time and our dues (and fines) we’re probably paying $500/lb. for that duck. Mostly we like having ducks around, and what we’re most proud of that we kept their land from being turned into a shopping mall or something.

    I’m not a trophy hunter, but really good trophy hunters feel the same way. Some are @$$holes who care more about having something to hang on the wall than about the animals. Another thing I like about hunting is being able to hunt with like minded people. Such as the members of my club, a really good trophy hunter, or the Shona, Zulu, or Nama I hunted with in Africa.

    Hunting is one of those things that, if you don’t do it, probably flies in the face of your carefully curated 21st century morals.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  169. elissa, I don’t believe Steve57 was ever defending Dr. Palmer if his hunt was illegal. My read was Steve57 was explaining the sport and benefits of said hunts to the animals, their habitats and the people who support them and whom depend on them for a living. As I stated before, I understand your compassion, however I think you’re being too emotional and critical and not really taking in some of Steve57’s logic and argument.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  170. I hate to tell you Steve57 but I too like to hunt. Problem is I’m the guy who’s hunting for the next good location for that shopping mall.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  171. Thank you for your on line psychological analysis, Hoagie. I believe if you were to take the time to re-read this thread in its entirety you will see that many, including Steve57, started out with the premise it was a legal hunt and went from there. You are of course entitled to your opinion about Dr. Palmer, Steve, or me. I am happy if you newly learned from Steve’s comments about some of the habitat conservation efforts in several African countries with which many of us were already familiar from such things as trips to Africa and/or volunteer work in Big cat sanctuaries in the states. This story however is not about good intentions by conservationists or good hunters, but how easily the rules can be broken by unethical hunters causing tragic and unintended results.

    elissa (97a414)

  172. I still can’t believe cecil’s really gone

    happyfeet (831175)

  173. 180. …I believe if you were to take the time to re-read this thread in its entirety you will see that many, including Steve57, started out with the premise it was a legal hunt and went from there.

    elissa (97a414) — 8/1/2015 @ 2:06 pm

    elissa, here’s how I started:

    50. You can’t let the lunatics run your life.

    On the other hand the guy should have done his due diligence. There shouldn’t be any questions that the PH/hunting concession owner had arranged for all the required permits, licenses, etc. Just traveling around foreign countries with some sort of weapon can easily land you in prison unless all your paperwork is in order and all the required fees have been paid.

    Steve57 (0ccd36) — 7/29/2015 @ 9:53 pm

    Where do you see any presumption that I thought this hunt was legal? If the guy didn’t do his due diligence and make sure everything was legal then he deserves everything he gets. That’s I referred to the importance of doing your due diligence again @127:

    …I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily the most knowledgeable about hunting in Africa, but I have hunted in a couple of different countries. And I know enough to do my due diligence, particularly regarding obeying the law.

    I once had a landowner try to encourage me to shoot a leopard after legal shooting hours (in some countries you can shoot a leopard at night; I was not in one of those countries). I flat refused. First it would have been unethical as well as illegal…

    I have never depended on the locals to keep my hunting ethical and legal. I have a personal responsibility to do that. So where, again, do you see me coming to Dr. Palmer’s defense? If he didn’t know he’s at best an idiot, and at worst he wanted to hunt illegally and wanted the “I didn’t know” alibi.

    What I’ve been responding to have been derogatory comments about big game trophy hunters in general. Such as:

    66. I agree with elissa. You can feel disgust at both baby chop-shops and trophy hunters, too. Whether it was Cecil or Aslan is beside the point. And these professionally-guided safaris are not hunts. They’re mob hits. One sadistic @**hole who pays to take the first shot backed by half a dozen minions with elephant guns to finish off the animal he wounds. Or misses altogether.

    nk (dbc370) — 7/30/2015 @ 4:01 am

    You see, I took your comments the same way nk did. That you were tarring all big game hunters with a broad brush as if Dr. Palmer is representative of the breed. I thought this comment @59 made that clear.

    43. There is no good reason to stand up for the big game trophy hunter…

    elissa (3363be) — 7/29/2015 @ 9:33 pm

    No, there are very good reasons, as long as the hunter obeys the law.

    I was defending big game trophy hunting when done ethically and legally. If that didn’t make it clear, this comment @158 that I made yesterday certainly should have removed all doubt.

    None of this should be taken as a defense of Dr. Palmer. In my first post on this thread I said he should have done his due diligence; that there should have been no question about the legality of the hunt. I’m content to wait for the facts to come out, and the facts may prove he hunted illegally and unethically.

    What I’ve been defending throughout this thread is the practice of big game hunting in Africa when done legally and ethically.

    I think pretty much everybody except you had caught onto that a long time ago. I also think the reason why Steve Malynn @149 said you owed me an apology and tuition for the education was that none of your earlier comments gave any hint that you knew any of the information I was providing.

    I don’t want either; I would like you to point out where I once presumed that this dentist hunted legally.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  174. Also, elissa, if nk was wrong when he agreed with you that all trophy hunters are “sadistic @$$holes,” could you kindly direct me to the comment where you corrected him?

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  175. 179. I hate to tell you Steve57 but I too like to hunt. Problem is I’m the guy who’s hunting for the next good location for that shopping mall.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 8/1/2015 @ 1:45 pm

    Only when you pry the duck call out of my cold, dead hands, Rev.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  176. How’s the dog doing Steve57?

    mg (31009b)

  177. Romeo is still losing hair, but it doesn’t bother him. I went to a specialist and he did every test he could think of and couldn’t find anything wrong. The veterinarian dermatologist said that if starts to bother him come back in, but until then there’s no point.

    I spent well over a grand to find that out. But it was worth it to eliminate any cause that might have threatened his health.

    Steve57 (0ccd36)

  178. 180.Thank you for your on line psychological analysis, Hoagie.

    No, thank you elissa for your sarcasm and subsequent condescension. I actually do learn from people, even Steve57, hell even you, when I don’t know something. Sorry, I’m not a hunter although I have hunted with friends a couple times. Yes, we all are entitled to our opinions however, we’re not entitled to Steve57’s facts which he laid out to my satisfaction. If you’re still not satisfied then I can’t help ya.

    And although we don’t know each other personally you don’t need to be a smart-a$$. I have oft admitted when I’m wrong so I don’t need it.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  179. Funny thing is Steve57, not knowing much about big game hunting in Africa I started out this thread thinking Dr. Palmer’s hunt was completely legal. In my ignorance I had no reason to believe otherwise. It was you who showed me he was wrong and the hunt was a bad hunt and the guy should face the consequences.

    Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27)

  180. Don’t take it personal Hoagie, elissa’s been on the prod for weeks now.

    ropelight (e6eb9d)

  181. Jericho is down, the other lion of hwangi

    narciso (b0adf2) — 8/1/2015 @ 1:05 pm

    They only had the two, I guess. No wonder the Zimbabweians are so not pissed off about it.
    Working the angle. Seeing if they can extort some of Dr. Palmer’s money.

    What are the chances a crooked outfit like Mugabe’s Zimbabwe would pencil whip the permission slip of a dentist from Milwaukee, making it appear as if he were in the wrong?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  182. In retrospect he may not be, re some accounts

    narciso (ee1f88)

  183. The task force also reported on its Facebook page that Jericho was killed at 4 p.m. local time.

    I happen to know that’s right around the time people started writing up Jericho the lion protecting the babies on Youtube.

    Mugabe’s crooks are yanking us around by our [radio edit].

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  184. Video of mob hit. Sadistic a**hole wounds lion, half a dozen or more guys track it by its blood for hours before it finally uses its last breath to charge them. Sadly, it doesn’t get any of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEIGqD80N6U

    Another mob hit. At least four gunsels against one lion this time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbj1h0PPTK0

    And the best for last. 36 seconds. Bowhunter tags lion with his arrow, immediately two of his gunnies kill it with rifles. Exactly what I was talking about. https://youtu.be/VJ0bPBVXIKE

    Screw you, phony Bwana M’kumbes!

    nk (dbc370)

  185. BTW, “gunsel” was coined by Dashiell Hammett in the Maltese Falcon referring to Wilbur, the fat man’s “boy”. It’s from the Yiddish “gonsel” meaning “gosling (young goose)” meaning homosexual. He changed the “o” to a “u” to slip it by the bluenoses.

    nk (dbc370)

  186. No results found for Bwana M’kumbes.

    Speaking gibberish, and even then feels the need to spill the banks of English!

    Dash Hammett! I think Dash Hammett is going to be my new all purpose cuss word.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  187. Same link, less space.

    nk (dbc370) — 8/1/2015 @ 7:31 pm

    Dash Hammett!

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  188. No doubleunplusgood tr

    narciso (ee1f88)

  189. My good friends at African Hunter Magazine (Harare based) are on the case.

    And I’m not kidding about them being my good friends; I’ve known them for years because of my membership in the Dallas Safari Club. We get together for dinner, sometimes at my place, and to go out on the town when they come out for the convention.

    http://www.africanhunteronline.com/

    Currently the top story on the page:

    Lion Conservation Under Threat – Cecil the Lion The Facts

    By IJ Larivers

    As I read the reports of the killing of the famous Hwange National Park lion, Cecil, by an American client, hunting with a licensed professional hunter, firstly I anticipated the media frenzy over what was at the time a largely unknown story. Predictably, it took time for the facts to start emerging, and they will continue to emerge as the case moves through the legal system.

    One element that immediately leapt out was where Cecil was hunted. The concessions bordering on Hwange National Park have been a hotbed of controversy since the beginning of the new millennium. The former stomping grounds of the Big Bad himself, Dawie Groenewald of Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris, it seems that just about every corrupt politico and safari operator has been drawn to that area like a magnet over the last fifteen years. Alarm bells just went off from force of habit.

    …There is a very real chance that sport hunting of lion could be dealt a death blow in the near future, and we all know what will happen then. All we have to do is look at Kenya, where the country on the one hand lauds itself for having banned all sport hunting in 1977, and then bemoans the fact that its lion population will be extinct within a decade – and that was half a decade ago. Its lions have no value to the rural villagers, and between habitat loss and their being killed off as stock predators – of course with no value – they have no chance.

    If anyone thinks they’re only getting the part of the story I want you to get, you can verify the lion population trend in Kenya yourselves. I believe the optimistic estimate is that Kenya’s lions would be extinct in 20 years, but that was six years ago. They really are swirling the bowl, for the reasons above.

    …He was allegedly baited out of the park so that he could be killed legally. Legally, if, of course the land-owner, one Honest Ndlovu and the PH – Theo Bronkhurst – had a lion on quota or on licence. (If they didn’t – which was the case – there is an unsavoury practice known as a “quota transfer” where an animal shot in an area without a quota is recorded as having been shot elsewhere and needless to say this is illegal and unethical in the extreme. I would be lying if I said there is no National Parks complicity in this practice.)

    …Walter Palmer apparently paid US$50,000 for the kill, but there was no quota or licence for a lion to be taken from this area. That was what made it illegal! Lions can be legally baited in Zimbabwe. Radio-collared lions may be legally hunted in Zimbabwe.

    Another thing I jumped on earlier. A lot of things people apparently believed made this lion hunt wrong and/or illegal was simply not true. “Luring” with food isn’t a crime or unethical. There are rules about how you must do it, but in and of itself baiting is one of the main legal methods along with spot and stalk for hunting lion in Zimbabwe (and practically the only legal way to hunt leopard anywhere in Africa, except for tracking in the Kalahari, and increasingly using American mountain lion hounds). There is no such thing as a protected lion outside of a national park boundary, and shooting a collared animal is no more illegal in Zimbabwe than shooting a duck with a leg band in the US. So what was the problem with the collar?

    the collar would have made a “quota transfer” virtually impossible

    This is almost exactly what Dr. Palmer did on his bear hunt that got him in trouble. He killed the bear in an area where he didn’t have the US equivalent of a “license and quota,” i.e. a bear tag for that particular zone, and claimed he killed the bear in a zone where he could legally kill it.

    …So, what about Walter Palmer? There are a lot of ways this could shape up. Firstly, it is the responsibility of the hunter – read “client”, in this case Palmer – to do his due diligence before booking a hunt; given the cost of an African safari this should be a given…

    As I’ve said, I’ve known some of these guys for years. They have no skin in the game as they don’t work (at least full time) as professional hunters. But some of them are in charge of running Zimbabwe’s grueling and thorough professional hunter’s licensing practical and written exam. Others are former wildlife law enforcement.

    Before I ever hunted Africa they advised me how to go about doing my due diligence. When I first contemplated hunting Zimbabwe, my due diligence started with emails to these guys.

    …Now, you generally wouldn’t have a lion on licence and not know it. (You would be less culpable if you had one on licence but the operator or concessionaire didn’t have one on quota, because that could be more easily concealed from you.) Which means that if your PH tells you to shoot one you should suspect something is amiss if you haven’t bought one…

    This is one thing that made me suspicious of the dentist. If I recall correctly (I may be confusing the regs in one country for another as it’s been years since I’ve been to Africa) some game is included on the general hunting license you must buy, while other game requires a special license or permit.

    These are actual documents. You will see them as you are going to have to sign a lot of paperwork upon arrival. Just like buying a car, and nearly as expensive(a used Kia in my case; I do things cheap). Make sure you know what they are and read them.

    So this dentist is saying he relied on his PH and the safari concession operator to keep everything legal. As I said in my first comment on this thread there should be no doubt. The only reason you wouldn’t ask questions is if you don’t want to know the answers. Which increasingly appears to be the case with Dr. Palmer, and that doesn’t bode well for him. It won’t fly with the authorities here in the US or Zimbabwe for him to keep playing the poor dumb schmuck who relied completely on everybody else’s pinky swear that everything was on the up and up. Not when you can google his name and see he’s spent a fortune hunting around the world. It was his responsibility to know.

    Especially when he already pulled this same stunt in Wisconsin. Speaking of which.

    …He was spared the felony conviction chiefly because he was a dentist and it might have impacted negatively on his ability to prescribe medications and his licence to practice. Not to mention owning a firearm…

    He caught a lucky break once, and so since he got away with it then he tried the same trick again. I don’t see anyone sparing him the felony conviction this time.

    …There is no Lacey Act violation, because Cecil’s trophy has been seized by Zimbabwean authorities as evidence, and so there was no importation.

    …There are allegations which will only be proved or otherwise in court that National Parks officials may have been bribed in the Cecil incident. It is unlikely that the client himself would be in a position to do this, however, if it can be proven that Palmer did indeed bribe any officials, he could conceivably be charged in the United States in terms of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act…

    This is apparently going to rope in many more people; the CEO of Safari Operators’ Association of Zimbabwe, Emmanuel Fundira, has reason to suspect that there may be a highly organized syndicate of well connected people selling hunts outside of the established system, providing false documentation, and then pocketing the money. Fundira also said a legitimate safari operator wouldn’t have booked a hunt for a lion in similar condition for less than $100k, give or take. Palmer got it for half it was worth. So maybe he did his due diligence in a fashion, after all.

    Which will undermine his “I’m just a babe in the woods, how could I know it wasn’t legal” act. I expect to see federal agents serving him with a search warrant shortly, and walking out of his house and offices with computers, laptops, cell phones, and boxes of documents.

    There is much, much more at the link.

    Steve57 (5a07a9)

  190. Cecil is a distraction to give the slime stream media something to talk and write about instead of the slaughter at planned parenthood. That it involves the personal destruction of an innocent man and his family is a hallmark of the Clinton machine. He was deceived by his guides and broke no laws and even if he did it was very minor compared to the poaching of elephants and rhinos that has gone unabated for many years.

    dunce (040ba0)

  191. For most recent news you have to pay a quick visit web and on internet I found this site as a most excellent website for most recent updates.

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