Greece Votes “No” to Bailout Terms
The people of Greece were presented with a referendum to accept terms of a bailout: yes or no. They have decisively said “no”:
With almost all the ballots counted, results from the Greek referendum show voters decisively rejecting the terms of an international bailout.
Figures published by the interior ministry showed nearly 62% of those whose ballots had been counted voting “No”, against 38% voting “Yes”.
Greece’s governing Syriza party had campaigned for a “No”, saying the bailout terms were humiliating.
This likely means ejection from the Euro. It will be interesting to see whether their banks reopen. If they revert to the drachma, it will be interesting to see if it fails, or fails miserably.
But hey. They have their pride.
Ding.
Patterico (3cc0c1) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:55 pmWe want free money without doing anything for it.
Sounds familiar, huh?
Patterico (3cc0c1) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:57 pmIt’s not clear to me what this vote means to voters — a referendum on the EU or how the Greek leaders should negotiate with the EU? — but it seems clear Greeks don’t want austerity. But austerity is the only option that will work in the long term.
DRJ (1dff03) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:59 pmGreetings:
Well, them Greeks might have started democracy, but they sure couldn’t keep it going the first time. As to the Tsipras circus, I’m a bit amazed that the press I’ve seen hasn’t included the word “demagogue” when it come to the tie-ophobic wonder. Again and again he tries to emotionalize the situation with his histrionics about dignity, respect, democracy, trying to paint his government as morally superior as it stiffs its creditors.
11B40 (6abb5c) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:18 pmThis is a wonderful result.
All I ever hope is that evil be revealed. The lies of Keynesian economics and that unsupportable debt won’t result in severe consequences are finally, FINALLY, going to be unveiled.
Of course, I am not hoping for much needed change in the West, and the USA, but at least everyone will have had the chance to see where we are all headed. Until now, there has been little reason for the ignorant, willful or not, to hear the alarms. No more. The reckoning is approaching.
Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:25 pmThis was kind of a useless vote anyway, since the the original offer from the EU was no longer on the table in light of Greece’s July 1 default on their payment. I don’t see Germany blinking and renegotiating terms, so I guess we do get to see the first country with a post-EU economy.
I’m guessing that Greece is going to be a really desirable vacation spot once their currency collapses and even our heavily manipulated dollar is massively strong against the drachma. Anybody want to join me for Thanksgiving in Halkidiki?
JVW (8278a3) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:32 pmI have read this no vote is a negotiating ploy. We shall see.
Patricia (5fc097) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:36 pmI get the point. They were dull enough to think Germany was stepping on them. All the banks, the ECB, and the IMF wanted was some assurance that the situation would ease and the controls would be in place to start paying some of this back in the next few years. I honestly don’t get what is so humiliating about that.
I see exactly what Farage has been warning about all this time. It’s happening here. The Greeks have raised a rather large middle finger to the unelected in Brussels. Unfortunately, nobody on the left did any planning for this eventuality. What the Greeks don’t understand is the party is over, the money has run out, and there isn’t any more to toss good after bad. The Greeks went Krugman instead of Friedman. Well Greece, you wanted this. You agitated for this, you rioted for this, you went as far as murdering for this. You threw a temper tantrum in January and voted for this. You wanted out of trouble with the Euro, yet you still want the Euro to bail you out. Sorry, but you’ll need to set up the drachma all over again. Until you figure out how to limit spending and spread the pain across all sectors of your economy and your government, expect first world responses to a third world nation. I seriously believe that the EU, Germany in particular is done with you on an economic level.
Oh, and just a reminder- if you do sell warm water access to the Russians, it won’t be NATO that you really need to worry about. The Russians will expect you to stay bought. They play for keeps.
Bill H (2a858c) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:39 pmI think I might have that much change in my coin bowl here……..**counting**……$9.40. Think that’ll cover it?
Bill H (2a858c) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:45 pmThis is good. A big F-you to Merkel, who thought Germany would dominate Europe economically having failed militarily. Yes, it is a way for the Greeks to regain their pride. Like a drunk who refuses to beg for more drinks.
nk (dbc370) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:50 pmYet, but eventually the bottle really is empty, and there just isn’t any more.
ropelight (1a3617) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:52 pmThe EU has no choice. If they bail out Greece, it is Italy or Spain or Portugal next. The Greeks wanted to keep living on other people’s money and they lost their bet. They thought the pain of kicking them out would never beat the pain of bailing them out. Oops, you guessed wrong.
About 2 years ago I read an anecdote that seemed to encapsulate everything wrong with Greece. This one gentleman wanted to start a business bringing in fresh flowers from Belgium. He lined up buyers and started out. Then his buyers realized that his product, the flowers, would die quickly so he had to sell or lose his investment. So they decided to keep ordering and stop paying. They kept promising and promising that they would pay. Eventually the business owner owed thousands of Euros, was forced to close up shop and move to a different country where he now runs a restaurant. So, for a few free flowers, Greece is out a business and an entrepreneur left the country. When asked why he didn’t go to court, he said, “Only the rich can afford to go to court in Greece.” With such disregard for property, propriety and the like and the amazing short sightedness of people there, you get a country in the mess that it is in.
And JVW, you may be able to afford a vacation there, but it will be like a third world country. There will be massive poverty, massive unemployment and some of the worst aspects of human nature on display. It is a pity, I missed out on the opportunity to see the Greek ruins years ago. Oh well, there are some fabulous Greek ruins in Sicily.
Patrick (b11d6f) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:59 pmWe could use something like that over here, for our national debt. There’s no difference, except that we can print our own money. The EU money to Greece was not used to subsidize the tourist industry or to finance enterprises. It went to a very bloated and corrupt civil service. Like our federal budget. We should also refuse to give the federal government any more money until it shows it can live within its means. What do you guys think?
nk (dbc370) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:06 pmPatrick, don’t opine about things you know nothing about.
nk (dbc370) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:08 pmthis is the reality, like with Global thermonuclear war,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11718083/Greece-referendum-syriza-tsipras-eurozone-crisis-euro.html
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:17 pmnk @ 14,
I need clarification on why you disagree with Patrick’s comments.
In response to the vote: Julia Klöckner, deputy chairwoman of Germany’s ruling party, tweeted: “The E.U. is not a make-a-wish club in which a single member sets the rules and the others pay the bill.”
Dana (86e864) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:32 pmThe EU money to Greece was not used to subsidize the tourist industry or to finance enterprises. It went to a very bloated and corrupt civil service. Like our federal budget. We should also refuse to give the federal government any more money until it shows it can live within its means. What do you guys think?
As the saying goes, anyone can learn from his own mistakes but the smart man is the one who can learn from the mistakes of another. We are no longer a smart country.
I don’t think things will be too dire in Greece, but they will be similar to the living conditions in other Marxist nations. Greeks will have a little less lamb and a little more rice in their diet, the government will do even more things badly, and for a couple of generations Greece will probably muddle along as a tourist destination and an exporter of olive oil. Maybe they will get really lucky and come across some more petroleum deposits in the Aegean Sea and make a comeback ahead of schedule. I sure hope so.
JVW (8278a3) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:37 pmjanet daley outlines the contours of the gordian knot,
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:37 pmI know Greece and its history. It’s never been, and never will be, a Third World country.
There will be massive poverty, massive unemployment and some of the worst aspects of human nature on display.
No. At worst, there will be no iTunes and gay parades.
nk (dbc370) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:42 pmSomewhere the ghost of King Priam is laughing uncontrollably.
Beldar (fa637a) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:44 pmAnd it’s not going to go Marxist, either, anymore than Yugoslavia did under much more horrid circumstances.
nk (dbc370) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:46 pmIf only there were Trojans to hear him, Beldar.
nk (dbc370) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:50 pmwell who’s left, the Golden Dawn, doubtful, the Independent Greeks don’t have enough influence to helm the coalition,
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:50 pmnk–It has been many years since I’ve been to Greece. I remember it as a beautiful, historic, romantic country that looked and felt just like I had thought it would be. Two close friends and their families have been to Greece recently. One exactly a year ago and another in the early months of 2015. They both report they loved the food and scenery but thought the tourist experience, especially in Athens, was more than a little dicey. Strikes, lots of police noise and action, hard to get around, the attractions difficult to get to and not always open, etc. Do you think the tourist industry can hold on? That seems really critical for them, now.
elissa (344657) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:54 pmOnce again the left’s socialist national agenda is shown to be an utter failure….
rico (d6802a) — 7/5/2015 @ 7:10 pmMaybe if they put in a bid for another Olympic Games. . . .
JVW (8278a3) — 7/5/2015 @ 7:16 pmAccording to this report, there has been a massive run on food, cash, and medicine in anticipation of dark days ahead. No one seems to know for sure what to expect.
Dana (86e864) — 7/5/2015 @ 7:18 pmmontreal seems to be the only place, that hasn;t melted down due to the olympic curse, well that and Seoul
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 7:19 pmThe EU will try very hard to keep Greece on board as Portugal and Spain are already extorting the default result.
The return of the drachma is virtually certain and can be expected to succeed if only after a couple years of extreme hardship.
DNF (208255) — 7/5/2015 @ 7:45 pmelissa, you will like these pictures. It’s the Greece my daughter sees when she goes there every summer. http://krites.blogspot.com/2008/08/wedding-in-greece.html
This is the one I was born in. http://krites.blogspot.com/2013/10/blog-post_29.html
nk (dbc370) — 7/5/2015 @ 7:48 pmWe want free money without doing anything for it.
Just as a lazy, sloppy, amoral, greedy form of liberalism (full of deranged political correctness run amok) has infected every facet of American life, from our schools to the media, from the churches to the US military, from the offices of government to the offices of corporate America (hello, GE/NBC/CNBC/Comcast, etc, etc!), a similar phenomenon is nicely illustrated in the slopfest that is Greece, from its electorate to its (and the world’s) financial industry.
^ Incidentally, the lunacy described above is so profound at the international level, that generally right-leaning Japan — which got rid of its leftist prime minister in the same year we in the US returned our leftist president to the White House, replacing that prime minister with its current so-called right-leaning leader — enacted an economic policy in the past 2 years or so to gin up inflation by running that nation’s money-printing presses full blast and also increasing sales taxes.
We humans is stupid.
Mark (e584c3) — 7/5/2015 @ 7:56 pmIf Greece doesn’t want to be considered such, they need to stop acting like one.
Bill H (2a858c) — 7/5/2015 @ 8:42 pmSalt Lake City didn’t do badly at all. Los Angeles also came out in good shape.
Bill H (2a858c) — 7/5/2015 @ 8:48 pmPutin is about to have a field day with this, he will enjoy Greece messing with Nato. Putin is strategic and the E.U. is asleep.
mg (31009b) — 7/5/2015 @ 9:29 pmOnly those deficient in math skills EVER thought Greece would do anything but default. The ONLY question has been when, and how much more the ECB & EU would sink into their PR effort to delay it. The numbers just never added up, not even close.
Greece had 175% debt to GDP ration five years ago when the last series of bailouts were made in exchange for promises of austerity. Greece hasn’t performed half of those measures, but has suffered a four year recession with GDP contracting every year. Their debt ratio is now over 197%, even after the 25% prinicipal “haircut” bondholders accepted in the last deal.
There was never any possible good outcome once the debt was allowed to get so high. Greece lacks even the industrial base that might give hope they could grow out of it – ever. There will be pain, of course – and it is worse for the delay in default, and will take longer to recover.
But they will recover with a new currency, after a couple of years. With no more debt, they have a chance. It’s not likely they will restructure their economy and government sufficiently, even so, but it is the only chance they have, or had, despite the enticements of the EU.
Estragon (ada867) — 7/5/2015 @ 10:37 pmNeed help on this, somehow there is a *good* way to fit the ‘dignity’ meme into this situation.
hmm, markets didn’t fall nearly as much as they thought they would. Do the players just figure that somehow the EU will keep Greece afloat??
seeRpea (0cf003) — 7/5/2015 @ 10:40 pmKohl and Chiraq intended the EU to be a captive and lucrative market for their exports.
But Europes plutarchs make ours seem choirboys by comparison. The Greeks have paid a hundred times over for their sins, Italy is no better they simply have product for commerce.
DNF (208255) — 7/6/2015 @ 12:29 amToo bad Greece lost all of the industry institutions it had. Europe failed in helping Greece maintain those lost industries.
mg (31009b) — 7/6/2015 @ 3:11 amPutin will step in as Greece culture has more in common with Russia than Europe. Orthodox religion for one.
The only lesson to be drawn from Greece is as the endgame of peak government.
Of the 15 Billion tranche lost with ‘Oxi’ only 3 Billion would have been available to Greek paymasters who might have devoted a share to pensions.
Usery pure and simple.
Greece is left with no services just the overhead of concrete slippers.
DNF (208255) — 7/6/2015 @ 8:05 amGreetings:
And speaking of “concrete slippers” (they have it in overcoats also) there’s this.
“You stupidly lent me more money than I could ever repay.” = Words no loanshark has ever heard.
11B40 (6abb5c) — 7/6/2015 @ 8:44 am“You stupidly lent me more money than I could ever repay.” = Words no loanshark has ever heard.
This is what makes me laugh about the Greek left’s argument (which are being happily repeated by the Euro and US left) for whose fault this is. It boils down to the following formulation:
The EU was irresponsible for loaning us all of this money which prevented us from acting in a fiscally prudent manner, so the only thing that can be done is for the EU to keep loaning us money so we can continue avoid acting in a fiscally prudent manner.
Coming from the birthplace of Aristotle and Philo, this abdication of logic is pretty astounding.
JVW (c95135) — 7/6/2015 @ 9:46 amIt’s a lack of virtue, and the Greek philosophers would be the first to say it.
DRJ (1dff03) — 7/6/2015 @ 10:06 amI think the majority of Greeks said, “You made your debt, now try to enforce it”.
nk (dbc370) — 7/6/2015 @ 10:41 amWhere is the virtue in not paying one’s debt?
DRJ (1dff03) — 7/6/2015 @ 10:45 amGreece hasn’t skipped out yet. For now, she has only refused to sign a note for 15 billion euros of which she’ll get 3 billion and the Central Bank will keep 12 billion as DNF pointed out above accompanied by further losses of her sovereignity. If she just dumps the whole process and goes her own way, it does not mean the debt will not eventually be paid. Just not on the Central Bank’s term. Who knows? Maybe Putin will pay 200 billion euros for a naval base in Piraeus.
nk (dbc370) — 7/6/2015 @ 10:52 amMaybe so but Greece has a history of default.
DRJ (1dff03) — 7/6/2015 @ 10:57 amA naval base to guard the pipeline putin wants to make.
mg (31009b) — 7/6/2015 @ 11:01 amI know, DRJ. This thread is deja vu for me. We’ve had this conversation a few years back. Samaras imposed a fake austerity to satisfy the EU by taking public employees off the payroll and putting them on pensions. That is one of the sore points that helped elect Tsipras.
nk (dbc370) — 7/6/2015 @ 11:01 amFrom DRJ’s link:
In 1824, a loan of 472,000 pounds was secured on the London Stock Exchange to continue this fight. This offering was oversubscribed and buyers were required to put down only 10% of the purchase price with a promise to pay the balance over time. An additional loan of 1.1 million pounds was floated in 1825.
The unfortunate fact about these two loans was that speculators and middlemen in London skimmed off much of the proceeds before Greece received any funds. Another issue was that the Greek War of Independence soon descended into civil war between rival factions, making it difficult to even figure out who should receive these funds.
….
In 1832, another loan totaling 60 million drachmas was given to Greece, which was officially an independent sovereign nation. The loan was arranged by the French, Russian and British governments, and was ostensibly given to help Greece build its economy and manage the initial stages of governance.
The funds were mostly squandered on the maintenance of a military and the upkeep of Otto, a Bavarian prince that was made King of Greece by the English. Greece managed to stay current on this loan until 1843, at which time the government stopped payments.
A lot of Greeks are making analogies to the present situation.
nk (dbc370) — 7/6/2015 @ 11:10 amnk,
I empathize with Greeks who feel bad leaders led them down the path to default. Should America default because of Obama’s profligacy? It would feel good to do that but I don’t see how we can or should.
DRJ (1dff03) — 7/6/2015 @ 12:09 pmIt is curious that the example of Chile has been “forgotten” when considering solutions to Greece’s woes. Nor has much been made about the obverse, the collapse of Venezuela despite its abundant natural resources when it decided to stumble down the socialist path. The media seems to think that Greece exists in vacuum, and the only explanations that count are those that rely on emotional outbursts from the recipients of socialist largess. Margaret Thatcher understood these parasites and spoke clearly about them. The dialogue I’ve heard seems intent on making the bankers the villains, and the solution is for the banks to give the Greeks yet more money. No mention of the need to reform Greek society so that small businesses can prosper, which relate to the rule of law, contracts, and labor relations. Zorba the Greek demonstrated that the old ways are not the road to the future, as “charming” as the film and music might be.
bobathome (f50725) — 7/6/2015 @ 1:16 pmSure. And then, some time down the road, the Russians will magically heed the call of Greek sovereignty and, in a gesture of magnanimous good will, return Greek territory, sailing off into the sunset in hopes of finding another warm-water port with such ease.
I don’t see how anyone could wish such long-term damage to the Greek nation. This is not something that could be recovered from over a short period of time, if ever. Greece is delusional if they seriously believe selling warm-water access to the Russians is their ticket out of this crisis.
Bill H (2a858c) — 7/6/2015 @ 2:12 pmHere’s a view from a better vantage.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-06/welcome-blackswansville
The basic problem is there are less than 200 Trillion in assets the world over and 600 Trillion in bets placed against that collateral.
If you think you are safe u r schtooopid.
DNF (91649c) — 7/6/2015 @ 2:23 pmThe Greeks may not want austerity, but austerity wants them. So they will get austerity.
At this point, voting against austerity is like passengers on a bus voting against gravity as it heads off a cliff.
It’s hard to say what this vote meant to the voters. Some of those who voted yes and lost said it was like having to choose between cutting off your arm or cutting off your head. They fear the Greeks just voted to cut off their heads.
It’s especially hard to say what it meant because many voters had no idea what exactly they were voting on. As others have observed, the “humiliating” austerity terms were part of a package that was no longer on the table. And the language used in the referendum obscured that fact.
Many Greeks on either side of the issue figure this referendum was just a cynical ploy by Tsipras to shift the blame from Syriza and its bungling to the nation as a whole.
Steve57 (4c9797) — 7/6/2015 @ 8:20 pmVox populi, vox Dei.
nk (dbc370) — 7/6/2015 @ 8:31 pmMy bad. Greeks are allowed under bank supervision to access their safety deposit boxes.
They must be supervised because they are not allowed to remove cash.
I don’t know if they’re allowed to remove any other financial instruments or not.
But it’s these restrictions that convince some observers and depositors that the government will confiscate at least some of that cash.
Steve57 (4c9797) — 7/6/2015 @ 8:35 pmThe Greeks should definitely take responsibility on themselves and away from dipwhiddle politicos.
nk (dbc370) — 7/6/2015 @ 8:35 pmA politico reporter on assignment in Athens tweeted this yesterday.
https://twitter.com/PoliticoRyan
I really don’t think most voters had any clues as to the fallout from voting no on this referendum.
http://www.ft.com/intl/fastft/355591
Steve57 (4c9797) — 7/6/2015 @ 9:02 pmToo many Greeks have been similar to the self-entitled, overly indulgent, something-for-nothing, it’s-cruel-and-heartless-to-make-us-retire-after-60 Americans found in cities from A to Z (with Detroit at the top of the heap).
Meanwhile, the banking industry — the smug enabler to the Greeks — has been been similar to gambling addicts who spend all their waking hours in a Vegas casino, but who, unlike most gamblers, have the ability to dream up new schemes to take advantage of the dealer or the house.
The Greeks deserve the banksters, the banksters deserve the Greeks.
Mark (e584c3) — 7/6/2015 @ 9:23 pmLanguage warning. http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2015/06/Greece%20Oxi%20Vote_0.jpg
nk (dbc370) — 7/6/2015 @ 10:00 pmToday the German 10-year pays 1%, the Greek 18%.
DNF (208255) — 7/7/2015 @ 3:39 amGreek debt is 100% of GDP which has fallen 25% since 2008.
Seems like rude good health to me, but then I’m an American phuckwit.
DNF (208255) — 7/7/2015 @ 3:48 amDNF, Greek Debt has not fallen.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-debt-to-gdp
It’s 177% of GDP, up from 105% in 2008.
The Greeks cooked the books a couple of years back (with the help of outfits like Goldman Sachs) to make it look like they were bringing their debt down. But that was just con game.
If you look at total unfunded liabilities, Greece’s stand at almost 900% of GDP. That isn’t anywhere near good health.
But then, it isn’t as if the rest of the Eurozone is exactly pristine in this regard. Nor that we have much to brag about.
Steve57 (4c9797) — 7/7/2015 @ 10:49 amthe piece in the Telegraph, shows how they are stuck between two scorpions,
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/7/2015 @ 11:04 ami found a place yonder what makes super-tasty gyros for cheap
happyfeet (831175) — 7/7/2015 @ 11:08 amhttp://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-03-06/goldman-secret-greece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels
Steve57 (4c9797) — 7/7/2015 @ 11:11 amI would think the bratva would have offered more reasonable terms, than the Octopus,
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/7/2015 @ 11:18 amBut do you haver to be more than pretty sure how to pronounce it?
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/7/2015 @ 2:22 pmGreek Bailout Failed
seeRpea (0cf003) — 7/7/2015 @ 8:54 pmI don’t think the Greeks will take a Rainbow flag over the EU flag either, seeRpea. They’ll stay with their own.
nk (dbc370) — 7/7/2015 @ 9:17 pm63. GDP has fallen, not an ambiguity.
http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=4880
The fault here is again cronyism and the solution mass death.
DNF (208255) — 7/9/2015 @ 6:53 amDoes a country really need its own viable currency? Zimbabwe stopped having a currency about 5 years ago, correct?
seeRpea (5d7dd6) — 7/9/2015 @ 10:03 pm