Patterico's Pontifications

7/8/2014

Some “Children” Illegally Entering U.S. Are Gang Members, Killers

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 9:43 pm

Last month I told you that Border Patrol agents report being told to let in “children” with gang tattoos. I said then: “Obama is so invested in the idea of allowing illegals into the country that he really doesn’t care if any of them are gang members or even footsoldiers for the cartels.” I added:

[T]he cartels know the U.S. Government is doing this. So if they can find willing 16- or 17-year-old footsoldiers — and they can — the cartels can deliver those footsoldiers across the border, with the assistance of the U.S. Government.

I have absolutely no doubt that this is happening. Drug cartels are using Obama’s policies to deliver footsoldiers into our country.

Was I crazy? No . . . as it turns out, I was right:

With the system being overwhelmed, Border Patrol agents are concerned about minors who have admitted to being MS-13 members, a brutal street gang from El Salvador that has been successful in infiltrating American communities. Agents are also concerned about minors who have committed acts like torture and murder in their home countries before heading north to the United States.

“We have six minors in Nogales who have admitted to killing and doing grievous bodily injuries. One admitted to killing as young as eight years old,” an agent tells Townhall anonymously for fear of losing his job for speaking out. “They are being held for placement in the U.S.”

By U.S. legal standards many gang members operating in Central American countries and traveling north are classified as minors due to being under the age of 18. However, many young males are actively engaged in violent cartel and criminal activity, yet are treated as children when processed through the Department of Human Services or Department of Homeland Security systems.

But they’re just innocent children! And we love children!

Fortunately, they’re all being essentially released into the country, to face chimerical deportation proceedings that will happen in approximately never.

They probably won’t kill you, so why would you care?

287 Responses to “Some “Children” Illegally Entering U.S. Are Gang Members, Killers”

  1. Shocking. But they’re just “kids” right?

    njrob (9103c0)

  2. Chirren are every country’s wealth!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  3. Hey! Chilllllllllldren never lie!

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  4. Has any Democrat politician at all gone on record yet and said WTF to Obama’s “humanitarian crisis”?? Aren’t some of them going to have to run for re-election soon?

    elissa (b62c4b)

  5. Of course this story is very thinly sourced, and even that is based on not much in the way of evidence. 8-year-old killers are not a serious problem, even if this one claimed instance is true, which I doubt. But that the gangs are infiltrating teenage soldiers into America makes perfect sense. Why wouldn’t they do so, given this opportunity? We are likely to pay a heavy price for 0bama’s neglect.

    Milhouse (b95258)

  6. #1 & #2, these criminals are a small minority of the minors flooding over the border. And #3, exactly — the teenage thug who brags of having made his first kill at 8 is likely to be lying.

    Milhouse (b95258)

  7. There is no law which says these illegal immigrant gang members will be less law abiding than American born children.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  8. There is no law which says these illegal immigrant gang members will be less law abiding than American born children.

    Law? They’re gang members. They don’t need no steenkin’
    laws!

    Milhouse (b95258)

  9. i was talking to my brazilian friend yesterday

    and i asked him i said – you know the word “urchins?”

    he didn’t know the word – which I figured so I explained to him what an urchin was

    and he said oh yeah those are those ones

    … and you know how we here in america think of them as beggars or chiclet-selling window-washers

    he said

    those are the ones what are all

    can i have the can can i have the can

    if they see you drinking a soda in public

    you’re effing kidding me was the first thing i said

    yup that’s what they do

    and I’m thinking america’s future is not bright

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  10. We had an eleven-year old contract killer for gangs in Chicago. He became the “feral children” poster child for the movement to try children as adults.

    nk (dbc370)

  11. Has any Democrat politician at all gone on record yet

    The only record they’re likely to go on now and in the future is sending their own precious children to private schools or academies. And if that isn’t enough, then responding in a way that transcends the ballot box (and politics too): Voting with their feet and the moving van.

    U-Haul and Bekins must be relishing about what’s going on at the border and beyond.

    Mark (cb6333)

  12. So, first he sends weapons to the Cartels, now he enables them to replenish their affiliates here in-country.
    Since these organizations are direct threats against the government and people of the United States, I believe that reasonable people would consider theses acts Treason.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  13. The constitution defines treason, and this doesn’t fit that definition. But certainly impeachable.

    Milhouse (b95258)

  14. And We-the-People who have to LIVE in the communities where these ferals are let loose have NO standing to sue … anybody … over this, do we?

    “Government by consent of the governed”, eh?

    I hereby withdraw my consent.

    A_Nonny_Mouse (81ae39)

  15. Ship them to a Stand Your Ground state with shall-issue CCW laws. With any luck, these little gangsters will screw with the wrong person and BLAMO! Holiday over.

    Blacque Jacques Shellacque (51809b)

  16. Obama voters and soon to be hillary clinton voters want the children to stay and the children are trying to escape gang violence! You lost the election so tuff!

    vota (bc8f6c)

  17. Impeach the dirty bastard.

    ropelight (4b1a86)

  18. I guess we’ll find out how many there actually are when a few American citizens die. Since it will be a small percentage compared to our overall population, then it’s really not that big a problem. It’s for the children, our future, and serves the greater good. I’m sure that will be comforting to those affected.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  19. Obama voters and soon to be hillary clinton voters want the children to stay and the children are trying to escape gang violence! You lost the election so tuff!

    How does one escape gang violence when the gangs are being let in? Is it just a matter of being among a larger population decreases the odds that these children will suffer any gang violence?

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  20. I don’t know if it has been mentioned here, but I’ve heard something about some ad/notice from DHS about 6 months ago for organizations willing to help “host” immigrant children, suggesting that the DHS was anticipating this influx.

    Some have referred to this as “Obama’s Katrina”, perhaps we should call this “Obama’s Surge”…

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  21. Last month I told you that Border Patrol agents report being told to let in “children” with gang tattoos.

    Of course, because they could be, and probably are, leaving the gang, and you break them up that way, not that the people in charge are really thinking that deeply. It’s not like they are serving any obvious gang purpose.

    Of course, they should be interrogated a lot more and extensively debriefed, but to make a claim for asylum, which they will do, they’ll have to say a lot, anyway (unfortunately, probably nobody is collecting this information, except by chance) and they’ll be in contact with people who will arrange for them to survive without any kind of criminal activity, and lawyers who will very strongly advise them to keep out of trouble.

    It’s the gang members that never turn themselves in, or never get apprehended, that are still maintaining gang affiliations, that don’t come alone, that are in contact with other members of of a gang and their superiors all the time, that you have to worry about.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  22. 4. elissa (b62c4b) — 7/8/2014 @ 10:15 pm

    Has any Democrat politician at all gone on record yet and said WTF to Obama’s “humanitarian crisis??

    Has any Republican?

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  23. John Tester(D-MT) just asserted that the senate immigration reform bill would have prevented the border crisis. Unfortunately, Chuckie Todd didn’t ask him how. What magic does this legislation hold? I guess it would just teleport the illegals back from whence they came,

    I can see it now. A minor from Central America gets to the border, the border agent holds up a copy of the senate bill, and POOF – he/she/trans gets sent back through the time continuum to their home and loving parents who sent them on their journey.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  24. 25. Hadoop (f7d5ba) — 7/9/2014 @ 6:33 am

    John Tester(D-MT) just asserted that the senate immigration reform bill would have prevented the border crisis.

    The argument, I think, is, that by making work permits available, you eliminate a lot of the the incentive to do this, and some tighter border control contained in the bill will make it more expensive, so that in two ways you reduce the number of “customers” the coyotes have to the point where it no longer is a profitable business, and they stop devising methods of defeating the border controls.

    And that if you don’t reduce some of the demand for illegal immigration, you’ll never catch up. And that if you don’t grant amnesty, the internal controls will never work because there’s too many people trying to defeat them.

    Children obviously, are not the same people as the ones seeking jobs, nor would the Senate bill have made enough jobs available. Jon Tester is just going by general principles.

    Unfortunately, Chuckie Todd didn’t ask him how.

    Reporters often let assertions pass.

    Some explanation might have been said to them off the air.

    You clearly didn’t understand the general idea at all, but Chuck Todd has no doubt heard it more than once years ago.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  25. 18.Obama voters and soon to be hillary clinton voters want the children to stay and the children are trying to escape gang violence! You lost the election so tuff!

    Typical. If Obama and Hillary voters want the children to stay then let them step up and take them. What you traitorous animals want is to hurt America and force the rest of us to support your stupid ideas. Your anti American is showing with your line about losing an election. In our republic up until the time Obama and his non thinking minions took over, losing an election did not mean one lost their rights, or opinions, or free speech. Seems these commies want one party rule and everyone else be damned. Again Perry, I’ll be glad to ship 10 “children” to your home so you can put your money where your mouth is. FOB Lewes Delaware. If you’re not willing to take at least 10 then shut the hell up already. If you won’t take them you have no right making the rest of us take them.

    Perry, don’t you ever say anything that makes sense and is worthwhile? What happened to Xmas? You’re back to vota now?

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  26. Does Sammy masturbate after each post?

    Donald (e1735f)

  27. Does Sammy masturbate after each post?
    Donald (e1735f) — 7/9/2014 @ 7:07 am

    Looking for tips, or to lend him a hand? Mark is the one that usually makes the weird sexual comments, here. Are you related to him?

    nk (dbc370)

  28. You clearly didn’t understand the general idea at all, but Chuck Todd has no doubt heard it more than once years ago.

    And you clearly didn’t understand what I’m asking, and have repeatedly asked. Even if the senate immigration reform bill is passed, how will it handle children showing up at the border any differently than it does now? Are they refused entry? From what I read, the answer to that is no? The answer just seems to be more money to try and process them faster. What happens when they don’t show for their hearing(c’mon Sammy tell me they show up for their hearing)? Nothing, until they’re caught and given another hearing. This is the same crap wrapped in a bigger bow.

    And that if you don’t reduce some of the demand for illegal immigration, you’ll never catch up.

    Who’s demanding illegal immigration? And unless you have a system that does something about visa overstays, then all the other blather you spout is absolutely useless. And coyotes could give a damn about expense, they just charge more.

    Hadoop (5ab0dc)

  29. What was weird?

    Donald (b89a89)

  30. “Who’s demanding illegal immigration?”

    Hadoop – It is clear you do not understand the magical progressive of illegal immigration generated economic recovery promoted by Paul Krugman and Sammy Finkelman. Don’t worry, nobody else does either. You are in good company.

    Essentially the theory assumes we have a large influx of illegal unskilled labor into an economy already suffering high unemployment. The large number illegal unskilled potential employees are magically hired by unidentified employers to produce goods and services nobody is demanding while the existing unemployed remain unemployed.

    The inescapable conclusion – BOOMING RECOVERY

    Yeah, I don’t get it either, but that’s what they keep repeating.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  31. I think they should call it “The Pushing On String Theory Of Economic Recovery.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  32. daley you should maybe apply to VOX. That was a real good ‘splain you just did there. From what I’ve seen they could use some professional help with their ‘splainin.

    elissa (b62c4b)

  33. Mark is the one that usually makes the weird sexual comments, here.

    Nice try, nk.

    Considering you’re the one often seems to have a soft spot in your heart for issues likes GLBT, I’d say you’re a good illustration of what’s known as projection.

    As for Sammy F’s contention that kids trying to enter the US probably want to dispense with their gangsta affiliations and troubled past, and imply that once they’re in the US a magical, miraculous epiphany will wash over them, that makes so much sense since there are very few homegrown gangs in the US-based Latino community. Yes, uh-huh.

    Mark (cb6333)

  34. On comparing the “Humanitarian Crisis” children’s arrival policies with the Mariel Boatlift, that also went very very bad for Democrats in a different day.

    http://ricochet.com/border-crisis-obamas-mariel-boatlift/

    elissa (b62c4b)

  35. an agent tells Townhall anonymously

    Well, that’s a credible source. :roll:

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  36. elissa – Thank you very much. I get a lot of practice splaining things to the utes in the brown shirted para-military organization I volunteer with, but they are never sure how much of what I splain to believe, like how many times I’ve been abducted by aliens and what the aliens did to me. It’s still classified and I can’t give’em too many details. I just tell’em to watch Independence Day.

    I think I’ll stay away from Vox because of the low quality of my potential colleagues, but I appreciate the thought.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  37. “Well, that’s a credible source. :roll:”

    carlitos – Definitely on a par with Obama’s citations of “some economists” or “most economists” or “most scientists”! I can never find those guys on google.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  38. Carlitos I am sincerely trying to understand why you increasingly seem to delight in merely coming across as a Richard on these threads, rather than even attempt a convo with people. If you think everyone here is a hopeless case then why even waste your time?

    elissa (b62c4b)

  39. The voting majority want the children to stay and they put obama in the white house twice! In murrietta california we showed the tea bagger racists what the voting majority looks like with our large number of protesters their!

    vota (6a2bfe)

  40. The voting majority want the children to stay and they put obama in the white house twice! In murrietta california we showed the tea bagger racists what the voting majority looks like with our large number of protesters their!

    But the buses were diverted, and no illegals are being housed at the federal facility. What difference does it make if you have a large crowd? You’re not very good at this commenting thing.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  41. Vota–please point us to the referendum that the American people voted on where they voted for “the children(who were not even here yet) to stay”. Please point us to the platform language in Obama’s re-election campaign that discussed his plan for the “children (who were not even here yet) to stay”. Please explain why Barack Obama’s poll numbers in all areas have plummeted since he was “put in the White House twice” unless a great many of the nice non racist people who put him in the White House are having grave second thoughts, not to mention nightmares over his incompetence and lawlessness. Thank you.

    elissa (b62c4b)

  42. First, arm the cartels (Fast & Furious); then allow them to add manpower to their USA affiliates (the Children’s Crusade).
    A Thugocracy!

    askeptic (efcf22)

  43. We don’t have national referendums or other wise the republicans on the supreme court couldn’t make corporations people or money is speech!

    vota (6a2bfe)

  44. So now you are forced to admit you were full out lying about the “majority” that “want the children to stay”. But we already knew that, Vota.

    elissa (b62c4b)

  45. We don’t have national referendums or other wise the republicans on the supreme court couldn’t make corporations people or money is speech!

    Union use money for political purposes for their own interests. Why not corporation? They’re just a collection of people with similar political goals, right?

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  46. “Well, that’s a credible source.”

    carlitos – I don’t have a problem with it. It says the agent was in fear of his job. They have been instructed not to talk to the media. The Administration has a well known reputation for retaliating against whistle blowers – See Fast and Furious, Benghazi, and the VA for a start.

    Is your problem Townhall?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  47. 50. “Well, that’s a credible source.”

    carlitos – I don’t have a problem with it. It says the agent was in fear of his job. They have been instructed not to talk to the media. The Administration has a well known reputation for retaliating against whistle blowers – See Fast and Furious, Benghazi, and the VA for a start.

    Is your problem Townhall?
    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/9/2014 @ 2:36 pm

    And the fear is justified. This administration is even threatening Border Patrol agents in writing who dare speak publicly about how Obama is endangering national security and public health.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/382218/border-patrol-tells-agent-you-must-cease-and-desist-speaking-media-ryan-lovelace

    Kathleen Scudder, assistant chief patrol agent of the San Diego Sector, sent the letter to agent Ron Zermeno, health and safety director of National Border Patrol Council Local 1613, notifying him of an investigation into his conduct and to “remind” him that no agent should make statements or issue press releases “without proper authorization.”

    Zermeno confirmed the validity of the letter to NRO. He says he thinks the order is retaliation for his actions as a whistleblower, which have involved exposing the public-health risks associated with the illegal immigrants transported to the San Diego Sector. “As a union officer, I feel it’s my job to expose when management is putting people at risk,” he says. “They violated their oath as Border Patrol agents.”

    …Scudder writes in the cease-and-desist letter that she’s formed no opinion about the allegations against the agent thus far, but Zermeno says he expects to have his employment terminated. “I’m willing to lose my job over this because I know I’m doing the right thing,” Zermeno says. “I’ve been in this agency for 20 years and this is the worst I’ve seen it. It’s similar to the VA.”

    It’s ridiculous to complain about the media turning to anonymous sources under these circumstances.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  48. It will be interesting to see if the Border Patrol can actually fire Zermeno. I seems to me he can speak publicly and issue press statements on behalf of his union without getting government permission.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  49. Unlike syphilis, ignoring vota/perrywinkle will induce him to go elsewhere and things will get better.

    askeptic (efcf22)

  50. Our veterans who’ve been on year-long waiting lists at VA Hospitals should just enter our southern border. If they were to do that, they’d receive immediate medical attention, square meals, and get to watch the World Cup on large screen HD tv sets.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  51. This is why must impeach this criminal. If we refuse, for the sort of whiny, tactical reasons cited by the Beltway’s entrenched and corrupt RINOs, then shame on us.

    Kevin Stafford (9d942e)

  52. Kevin Stafford,

    Have you seen the partisan make-up of the Senate, lately ?
    Fat chance of us getting an impeachment conviction.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  53. Elephant Stone:

    Of course there won’t be a conviction. But the House can still impeach, which is all I argued for in my post–an impeachment. That will force a trial, which will air our constitutional arguments, on a world stage, and for all of posterity–and force the Obama White House to defend the indefensible. What that will do to Republican poll #s…I couldn’t care less. The flag must be flown, for the same reason that Sup Ct justices write impassioned dissenting opinions, to stake a claim on the future.

    Kevin Stafford

    Kevin Stafford (9d942e)

  54. 51. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/382218/border-patrol-tells-agent-you-must-cease-and-desist-speaking-media-ryan-lovelace

    Zermeno confirmed the validity of the letter to NRO. He says he thinks the order is retaliation for his actions as a whistleblower, which have involved exposing [lying about] the public-health risks associated with the illegal immigrants transported to the San Diego Sector.

    It’s amazing the trust and touching faith that some people seem to have in a self-interested bureaucrat that they don’t have when it comes to the IRS, BATF, DEA, DOJ and so on.

    I mean, really. His union has been (probably illegally) propagandizing the American people since 1974. And it was quite necessary for them to claim that their work is vitally necessary, because it has such a harmful impact on people that otherwise people would despise them. It is not an accident that they used to look kindly on Nazis. They recognized they were in doifferent lines of the same business. It’s never been about enforcing the law, per se. Nobody could feel good about that, because the law is irrational, and there is no sense to what it permits or forbids. So they re-write the law in their own minds, to make it something more rational to them or consistent, (but not necessarily at all true, nor followed as the basais for policy anywhere else – it’s a rationalization) or they accept there is no rhyme or reason to it and get sadistic or corrupt.

    I thought all this nonsense came from the union.

    If the claims about tuberculosis and other diseases don’t seem obviously false or misleading to you, some other claims should make it clear malicious lying is going on: the “come legally” signs, and the pretense there is some alternative policy that the administration could have done.

    They talk about some Border Patrol people testing positive for TB. He didn’t mention that a large portion of the U.S population does, nor that this exposure actually constitutes the equivalent of a a vaccination. TB is not very contagious, and people with TB are not kept in isolation wards. Which they would be, or should be ,according to his logic. And the border would be permanently closed to all traffic in both directions.

    Also, most cases can be cured. Furthermore, the phrase “sunlight is the best disinfectant” was coined in reference to TB – it is killed by ultraviolet light and santoriums used to have ultraviolet lights inside.

    Here is an op-ed piece from the New York Times on TB.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/opinion/if-tuberculosis-spreads.html?_r=0

    This is as far as you can legitimately go. The writer’s main concern is that starting and then stopping treatment is the way to create drug-resistant TB, which is the one thing that sometimes can’t be cured. Patients sometimes are abandoned, especially people being released from prison, and so she says the CDC should cover costs of tuberculosis treatment and take responsibility for locating and monitoring tuberculosis patients who move from one jurisdiction to another.

    Now here is where she does touch on people crossing the border. Emphasis mine.

    …foreign-born individuals account for two-thirds of new cases. We have no reliable method to identify tuberculosis in migrant populations or foreign visitors. Even if screening at borders were logistically possible, it could take several days to obtain test results. By that time, it would be difficult to locate travelers who were unknowingly carrying the disease. And health departments near the southern border are already overwhelmed, especially by a recent influx of migrant children from Latin America, where tuberculosis is more common.

    It’s not only people who come illegally who might have tubercolosis. In fact, those are the only people being tested for it.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  55. People who leak can tell the truth – or they can tell lies.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  56. “If the claims about tuberculosis and other diseases don’t seem obviously false or misleading to you”

    Sammy – They don’t sound false or misleading to me. What specifically makes them sound false or misleading to you?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  57. 31. Hadoop (5ab0dc) — 7/9/2014 @ 9:56 am

    Even if the senate immigration reform bill is passed, how will it handle children showing up at the border any differently than it does now?

    The argument (which you must fill in, because they never were thinking about children, but about men seeking work) is they wouldn’t show up at the border.

    Partly because they would have less reason, and partly because the combination of decreased demand and increased enforcement, would put the smugglers out of business.

    Are they refused entry? From what I read, the answer to that is no?

    They are refused permission to stay. They can then petition for political asylum. They are not refused entry because they are already on the U.S. side of the border. (They would probably be refused entry into Mexico.)

    The answer just seems to be more money to try and process them faster.

    That’s exactly what Obama is proposing. Well, what he seems to be proposing. He seems to be proposing three things:

    1) Approximately doubling the number of people who can be kept imprisoned, while awaiting hearings.

    2) Allowing people who entered the United states unaccompanied minors to agree to leave the U.S. voluntarily, which they now can not, unless they are from Mexico or Canada.

    3) Increasing also the number of civil servants involved.

    And funding it by adding to the deficit.

    It’s all a day late and a dollar short, but enough to get opposition from both sides.

    What happens when they don’t show for their hearing(c’mon Sammy tell me they show up for their hearing)?

    If hey have some hopes of being granted asylum they do, unless aybe they suspect they’ll be arrested. The CBS Evening News quoted some non-profit laeyer nthat about 40% of thiose with lawyers should be able to get asylum.

    Nothing, until they’re caught and given another hearing.

    Since staying in the process keeps them legal and gives them papers, many will stick with it.

    It’s actually leaving the United States that’s not going to happen very much.

    that if you don’t reduce some of the demand for illegal immigration, you’ll never catch up.

    You think that;s not true?

    Who’s demanding illegal immigration?

    In that sense, I used demand in the economic sense.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  58. if you don’t reduce some of the demand for illegal immigration, you’ll never catch up

    I should maybe change that to you haven’t a shred of hope of catching up.

    And unless you have a system that does something about visa overstays, then all the other blather you spout is absolutely useless.

    No, that means all the blather about the border is kind of besides the point, unless you have it specially in for Hispanics.

    Congress has legislated keeping track of people leaving the United States but no administration wants to do it, probably because it would create alot of roblems for tourism from Europe, since people who overstay visas tend to be barred from the United States for ten years. Congress could change the penalty, but nobody wants to be “soft” in taht way.

    And coyotes could give a damn about expense, they just charge more

    That reduces demand. And fewer people coming illegally is how you measure success, right?

    And people who could afford to pay a lot more would more likely have a way of immigrating legally if the law was changed.

    The idea is that at a certain point demand gets so low, that it is no longer a big business, and your measures have a chance of working..it doesn’t pay to invest money in devising new ways around it.

    What the smugglers y did now is stimulate demand by inventing a deadline – a “going out of business” sale. They also devised a new tactic. People turning themselves in as soon as they get across the border. Thiis reduces the risk.

    CBS News had a story about people dying in a certain county in Texas. 37 have been founds so far this year. They come in groups of 15 to 20. (This is what you will always have, if you want to restrict immigration very low)

    What was most striking to me was that none of the 37 dead was uder the age of 18. The youngest was 19 years old. The chldren are all turning themselves in.

    Women with children are also released. (There is only one facility Homeland Security has to hold families with children. It is in Pennsylvania and has a capacity of 100)

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  59. “If the claims about tuberculosis and other diseases don’t seem obviously false or misleading to you”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/9/2014 @ 10:28 pm

    Sammy – They don’t sound false or misleading to me. What specifically makes them sound false or misleading to you?

    If this were true, it wouldn’t be news, and union bureaucrats would not be the only ones saying it.

    Where are the doctors and nurses, not employed by the government, warning about this. they could be quoted by name. They’re talking medicine.

    And there wouldbe nothimnng very special about people crossing the border on tehor own, as compared woth all other people coming from those parts.

    You’ve got the union now talking about swine flu! Which I believe went extinct in 1976.

    This is like the Teamsters Union talking about Mexican trucks. Or the dangers of foreign catfish.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  60. “They talk about some Border Patrol people testing positive for TB. He didn’t mention that a large portion of the U.S population does, nor that this exposure actually constitutes the equivalent of a a vaccination. TB is not very contagious, and people with TB are not kept in isolation wards.”

    Sammy – Can I ask where you got your information about tuberculosis and what percent of the U.S. tests positive for the infection? Given that respiratory precautions are recommended by the CDC for Health Care Workers and patients are asked for a list of all people they have come in contact with since developing symptoms, I’m pretty damn sure health professionals consider it very contagious. TB vaccinations are also not widely used in the U.S.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  61. “Where are the doctors and nurses, not employed by the government, warning about this. they could be quoted by name. They’re talking medicine.”

    Sammy – There have been some, but they’re under the same gag orders as the Border Patrol, DHS and HHS. Read outside the Times.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  62. There has been his exasperating playful contrariness at times, there has been his clueless benign obliviousness at times, there has been his continued stubborn denial of the obvious long after it became obvious (to everyone else) at times, and there has been his willful ignorance of plain logic and indisputable fact at times. But what Sammy is writing and exhibiting on these border crossing crisis threads is really a new and different manifestation of the inner workings of his brain. It’s as if for him there is no history, there are no observers on the ground, and there have been no century long public health initiatives in the U.S. to eradicate contagious and deadly diseases that are still rampant and uncontrolled in many other parts of the world.

    elissa (886016)

  63. 63. You’ve got the union now talking about swine flu! Which I believe went extinct in 1976.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969) — 7/9/2014 @ 10:45 pm

    You need to get that info about swine flu going extinct 1976 to the CDC ASAP.

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/swineflu/

    Swine influenza (swine flu) is a respiratory disease of pigs caused by type A influenza viruses that regularly cause outbreaks of influenza in pigs. Influenza viruses that commonly circulate in swine are called “swine influenza viruses” or “swine flu viruses.” Like human influenza viruses, there are different subtypes and strains of swine influenza viruses. The main swine influenza viruses circulating in U.S. pigs in recent years are…

    …Swine flu viruses do not normally infect humans. However, sporadic human infections with swine influenza viruses have occurred. When this happens, these viruses are called “variant viruses”…

    Those poor, dumb amateurs think swine flu is still around.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  64. In murrietta california we showed the tea bagger racists what the voting majority looks like with our large number of protesters their!

    Were you in Murrietta? Of course not. As usual you left the heavy lifting to someone else. I’m a member of the TEAparty. It stands for Taxed Enough Already. It means all tax payers are over taxed. Not just white taxpayers, all taxpayers. There is nothing racist about wanting lower taxes for the working man and small business owners, is there? So if all you have is to call the opposition “racist” and names, you’ve lost the argument. But I figure you already know that which is why you call people names instead of using reason, which obviously escapes you. As you know Perry, I’m married to an immigrant of another race. So explain how I’m anti immigrant and a racist. Go ahead, explain. I’ve observed that a person who uses the pejorative “racist” as often as you do is more than likely a racist himself and is trying to deflect others from realizing that.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  65. Sammy just asserts $h!t, such as:

    The argument (which you must fill in, because they never were thinking about children, but about men seeking work) is they wouldn’t show up at the border.

    Who was never thinking about children? The bill regarding non-Mexican and non-Canadien illegals/our future/undocumented angels, or whatever signed by George Bush, requiring a hearing was specifically meant for teh children. Get your memes straight! It’s what the progs are citing as a deterrent to just flying them back home!

    Since staying in the process keeps them legal and gives them papers, many will stick with it.

    It’s actually leaving the United States that’s not going to happen very much.

    You contradict yourself too much for me to derive anything meaningful.

    I linked Michelle Malkin who did an investigative report that basically concludes that the appeals process drags on until the illegal alien wins. Obama’s aunt and uncle are perfect examples of this crap. You want to pretend otherwise, go ahead. I don’t care. Reality betrays your bs.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  66. Let’s face it, this is the first and only successful jobs program of the Obama administration. He should keep the immigration attorneys fully employed for decades with this crap.

    Hoagie (4dfb34)

  67. There’s a stupid immigration law that a three-year bar to legalization, including re-entry, is triggered only if you leave voluntarily.

    nk (dbc370)

  68. someone help me please
    trapped in haiku factory
    help me before they

    Colonel Haiku (db4096)

  69. 71. nk (dbc370) — 7/10/2014 @ 7:08 am

    There’s a stupid immigration law that a three-year bar to legalization, including re-entry, is triggered only if you leave voluntarily.

    But it has to be recorded as an overstay. If somebody’s leaving is not recorded, no overstay is recorded. The Unoted States literally does not know when they left. Departures from the Unioted States are not now being tracked, in spite of legislation requiring it. (becaused it would mess up a lot of things)

    If someone is deported, I think it is a 10 year bar.

    I believe that there is an arrangement where people from Mexico can agree to go back right away and the entry doesn’t count at all.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  70. Immigration laws are drafted just as stupid as Obamacare and for the same reasons. There’s some that want some part, and some want some other but not that, and their “compromises” are poison pills, and mainly most Congresscritters just don’t give a s*** as long as it doesn’t affect their reelection chances.

    nk (dbc370)

  71. Nope. The ten-year bar for an overstay of more than one year is triggered by either voluntary or involuntary departure. The three-year bar for an overstay of less than one year is triggered only by voluntary departure, not involuntary departure.

    nk (dbc370)

  72. Departures from the Unioted States are not now being tracked

    Since when? And what kind of departures? Airlines collect the I-94s; what do they do with them? They’re subject to strict laws about transporting undocumented travelers. And I imagine ships are too.

    nk (dbc370)

  73. Steve57 (cd4182) — 7/10/2014 @ 12:06 am

    Those poor, dumb amateurs think swine flu is still around.

    Not the dangerous swine flu. There was a very stupid theory about nfluenza running around in 1976.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  74. Heh, Jesse Jackson finally asked a relevant question:

    “If we can find $4 billion for those children — and we should — we can find $2 billion for Chicago. There are more children involved, and more have been killed, and more have been shot,” said Jackson.

    I said yesterday that the children of Central America face no more danger than those in Chicago. Send them home and have the UN build refugee camps there like the did for the Syrians. Where do children of Detroit go to escape their poverty, Canada?

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  75. Jesse must be expecting another baby from one of his mistresses and needs another till to dip into.

    nk (dbc370)

  76. ==their “compromises” are poison pills, and mainly most Congresscritters just don’t give a s*** as long as it doesn’t affect their reelection chances.==

    nk- I am about half way through a book about Mary Lincoln. Last night this series of sentences caught my eye and made made me chuckle a little:

    The debates…and election became a gladiatorial war of words. Even though Illinois voters turned out for the 1858 midterm elections in greater numbers than they had for the 1856 presidential contest and even though Lincoln’s supporters won the popular vote, the democrats maintained their hold on the state legislature–Lincoln had lost. Republicans complained about Democrats gerrymandering districts and bitterly protested immigrants shipped in on railcars to cast ballots illegally. Whether it was fair and square or not, Douglas was returned to the senate. —- from Mary Lincoln A Life by Catherine Clinton

    elissa (886016)

  77. Jesse is shaking down the taxpayers once again… shocker.

    Colonel Haiku (77105a)

  78. 64.“They talk about some Border Patrol people testing positive for TB. He didn’t mention that a large portion of the U.S population does, nor that this exposure actually constitutes the equivalent of a a vaccination. TB is not very contagious, and people with TB are not kept in isolation wards.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/9/2014 @ 10:53 pm

    Sammy – Can I ask where you got your information about tuberculosis and what percent of the U.S. tests positive for the infection?

    I read anumber which I failed to remember. It’s not easy to find the statistic, bt it was some relatively high number, like 25% I think in certain populations. Maybe it is only 10%.

    OK, I found it. It is somewhat lower:

    http://www.cdc.gov/tb/education/corecurr/pdf/chapter5.pdf

    It is currently estimated that more than 11 million people in the United States have latent tuberculosis (TB) infection, which is about 4 percent of the total population. While not everyone with latent TB infection (LTBI) will develop TB disease, about 5 to 10 percent of infected people will develop TB disease if not treated. This equates to approximately 550,000 to 1,100,000 people who will develop TB at some point in their life, unless they receive adequate treatment for LTBI.

    That works out to a U.S. popultion of around 275 million. That would be probably be based on a figure from the 2000 Census (which reported 281.42 million.)

    A 2005 report cited by the CDC

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5412a1.htm says

    An estimated 9.6–14.9 million persons residing in the United States have LTBI (39).

    39 is:

    Bennett DE, Courval JM, Onorato IM, et al. Prevalence of TB infection in the US population, 1999–2000 [Abstract 67921]. In: Program and abstracts, 131st annual meeting of the American Public Health Association; San Francisco, California, November 15–19, 2003.

    Here is a later publication:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17989346

    Interviews and medical examinations, including tuberculin skin testing (TST), of 7,386 individuals were conducted in 1999-2000 as part of the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES), a nationally representative sample of the civilian, noninstitutionalized U.S. population. LTBI was defined as a TST measurement of >/=10 mm….

    …MEASUREMENTS AND MAIN RESULTS: Estimated LTBI prevalence was 4.2%; an estimated 11,213,000 individuals had LTBI. Among 25- to 74-year-olds, prevalence decreased from 14.3% in 1971-1972 to 5.7% in 1999-2000. Higher prevalences were seen in the foreign born (18.7%), non-Hispanic blacks/African Americans (7.0%), Mexican Americans (9.4%), and individuals living in poverty (6.1%). A total of 63% of LTBI was among the foreign born. Among the U.S. born, after adjusting for confounding factors, LTBI was associated with non-Hispanic African-American race/ethnicity, Mexican American ethnicity, and poverty. A total of 25.5% of persons with LTBI had been previously diagnosed as having LTBI or TB, and only 13.2% had been prescribed treatment./blockquote> When people test positive they may very well mean even less than what fits the definition of latent TB.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  79. Jesse must be expecting another baby from one of his mistresses and needs another till to dip into.

    Probably so. Children aren’t responsible for the circumstances they’re born into, whether it be Chicago, Oakland or San Luis, Guatemala. But look what happens when we throw money at the situation. The political leaders end up with the money, while the rest of the citizenry wallows in starvation and poverty. Doesn’t matter if it’s Detroit or Flores, it may be just a matter of degree.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  80. I can almost smell
    your TB sheets, Sammy, Lawd
    can almost smell ‘em

    Colonel Haiku (22f0a7)

  81. Yes, Sammy, and if you actually read the copy-pasta you just posted you saw that the highest percentages are in the “foreign born and individuals living in poverty” category. This is what several people here have been trying to tell you as you resolutely plug your ears and hum “la-la-la” about the enormous potential for infectious disease arriving at the border.

    elissa (886016)

  82. Crony Opportunism of the worst sort!

    Colonel Haiku (22f0a7)

  83. “It is currently estimated that more than 11 million people in the United States have latent tuberculosis (TB) infection, which is about 4 percent of the total population.”

    Sammy – Sort of completely negates your hyperventilation about false reports of TB, especially with CDC reports of higher incidence in Latin America, doesn’t it?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  84. Given that respiratory precautions are recommended by the CDC for Health Care Workers and patients are asked for a list of all people they have come in contact with since developing symptoms, I’m pretty damn sure health professionals consider it very contagious.

    Actual cases. There is a ratio of about 10 to 1 between infectious cases and non-infectious ones.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64533/

    Infection by M. tuberculosis does not necessarily lead to active TB disease or contagiousness. Only 10 percent of immune-competent persons infected with TB will develop active or contagious TB disease.5

    They don’t generally recommend treatment.

    The strength of the reaction to the tuberculin skin test necessary to consider it significan varies depending upon other factors.

    They use 5 mm for people whose chest X-rays indicate previous TB disease, people in close contact with persons who have active TB, and people who are HIV positive positive or suspected of being so. 10 is used if a person has some other medical risk factors, and 15 for all others. (and we read 4% or so of the U.S. scores 10 or above.)

    But about 10 to 25% of people with TB do not react, or react very little, many with HIV or otherwise immunosuppressed.

    A level below 3 is considered a non-reaction.

    TB vaccinations are also not widely used in the U.S.

    The use BCG in Quebec, Canada, or used to, but that’s not the same thing as TB.

    What I was saying was that exposure to TB in many cases amounts to a vaccination.

    In any case there’s a long long distance from a positive test to active disease, and we don’t know what the rate was, or is now.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  85. Since staying in the process keeps them legal and gives them papers, many will stick with it.

    You contradict yourself too much for me to derive anything meaningful.

    I linked Michelle Malkin who did an investigative report that basically concludes that the appeals process drags on until the illegal alien wins. Obama’s aunt and uncle are perfect examples of this crap. You want to pretend otherwise, go ahead. I don’t care. Reality betrays your bs.

    Um, that doesn’t contradict Sammy’s claim, it supports it. If those who stay in the system usually end up winning, then they have every reason to stay in the system. Which is exactly what Sammy said.

    Milhouse (b95258)

  86. “It is currently estimated that more than 11 million people in the United States have latent tuberculosis (TB) infection, which is about 4 percent of the total population.”

    Sammy – Sort of completely negates your hyperventilation about false reports of TB, especially with CDC reports of higher incidence in Latin America, doesn’t it?

    Sammy never claimed that the reports of Border Patrol agents testing positive for TB were false. He claimed that this was not an unusually high rate, and there was no reason to suppose they got it from the recent surge of illegal arrivals. They could easily have got it in the US, or they could have got it from a legal immigrant or visitor. They could even have had it for years without knowing it. If anyone’s hyperventilating it’s those who are making such a big deal of this, and using it to turn people against the new arrivals. The fact is that we have no solid evidence of a higher rate of serious infectious disease among them, and anonymous sources are inherently not reliable.

    Milhouse (b95258)

  87. elissa, I wonder how many people understand that Lincoln and Douglas were competing for a job to be given to one of them by the state legislature. The 17th Amendment, or better the history preceding it, is a subject all of itself in federalism. It shows the states, prior to it, viewed as entities distinct from their populations. The people of the states had the people’s representatives in the House, and the states had the states’ representatives in the Senate.

    nk (dbc370)

  88. “Actual cases. There is a ratio of about 10 to 1 between infectious cases and non-infectious ones.”

    Sammy – Yes, actual cases of TB disease. Did you think I was talking about nonexistent disease or TB infection for which treatment was not recommended? That would make absolutely no sense. You can read the treatment protocols and precautions as well as I and have no reason to be so obtuse.

    What I was saying was that exposure to TB in many cases amounts to a vaccination.

    I believe you said the following about false positives turning out to being equivalent to vaccinations, which you have now discovered is completely false –

    They talk about some Border Patrol people testing positive for TB. He didn’t mention that a large portion of the U.S population does, nor that this exposure actually constitutes the equivalent of a a vaccination.

    The CDC discusses the point should you wish to read, even with respect to immigrants from countries where TB vaccinations are used. The CDC considers the point false.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  89. Um, that doesn’t contradict Sammy’s claim, it supports it. If those who stay in the system usually end up winning, then they have every reason to stay in the system. Which is exactly what Sammy said.

    The process drags on regardless of whether they appear for their hearing or not. The last remark was a continuation of a previous comment where I stated that. If they get caught, they get another hearing, so there’s no incentive to show up, and less than 40% bother.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  90. “Sammy never claimed that the reports of Border Patrol agents testing positive for TB were false.”

    Milhouse – Sammy’s words follow. Explain how they exclude the Border Patrol please:

    If the claims about tuberculosis and other diseases don’t seem obviously false or misleading to you, some other claims should make it clear malicious lying is going on: the “come legally” signs, and the pretense there is some alternative policy that the administration could have done.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  91. If anyone’s hyperventilating it’s those who are making such a big deal of this, and using it to turn people against the new arrivals. The fact is that we have no solid evidence of a higher rate of serious infectious disease among them, and anonymous sources are inherently not reliable.

    Well, if our elected officials whose districts these people are house in can’t go in and find out what’s happening, and the health care officials aren’t allowed to be interviewed, people are going to speculate. When I brought up the need for an emergency contingency plan regarding evacuation of the federal facilities these people are housed in, you didn’t respond. And the reason there are anonymous sources is they were threatened with incarceration for giving details about the undocumented angels.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  92. “Sammy never claimed that the reports of Border Patrol agents testing positive for TB were false.”

    Milhouse – Also, I don’t believe I have claimed the Border Patrol has reported contracted TB. What I have claimed is Sammy description of TB and its incidence, particularly in the U.S. is horribly distorted and uniformed. He basically admitted so himself this morning. Compare last night and this morning for yourself.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  93. “The fact is that we have no solid evidence of a higher rate of serious infectious disease among them, and anonymous sources are inherently not reliable.”

    Milhouse – What base infection rate are you comparing the seriously infected entering group against to arrive at such a conclusion? Do you have medical training? If they have serious contagious infections why should these people be shipped anywhere else in the U.S.? Does that make any sense?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  94. FWIW, I have never heard of exposure to TB considered to be a “vaccination”.

    Yes, it is entirely true that many people who skin test positive for Tb do not have active disease, but they are considered to be at risk for active disease in the future if their immune response weakens, from illness, age, chemotherapy for cancer, etc.

    Everybody with a positive skin test for TB, without known treatment, would be treated IF the medications were safe enough. Since there is a risk with the meds, and a risk of developing resistant TB if one starts meds but does not finish them, the recommendations for managing a person with a positive skin test is a little more complicated.
    http://www.cdc.gov/MMWr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4906a1.htm

    I must mention I haven’t been practicing for a few years now, so I guess it is possible there has been a major change that I am unaware of, but what I found as linked above is from 2000.
    But, even thought that is somewhat lengthy, there are likely subtleties not covered.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  95. I was married to a doctor and she got a needle prick on her forearm with a circle drawn in pen around it every year (or maybe oftener). TB test. Sammy’s wikimedicine, I don’t even ….

    nk (dbc370)

  96. Milhouse – What base infection rate are you comparing the seriously infected entering group against to arrive at such a conclusion? Do you have medical training? If they have serious contagious infections why should these people be shipped anywhere else in the U.S.? Does that make any sense?

    daley, Milhouse has repeatedly said he agrees with that position, and called them “undesirables”. And I believe this is the crux of the matter. If the federal government isn’t going to have certified paperwork that states that ANYONE entering our country illegally, or as a undocumented angelic refugee, has been medically deemed safe with regard to disease.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  97. If this is a hoax, it is not helpful and should be condemned, just like portraying tea party people as racist.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/9/illegal-immigrants-showing-border-yes-we-can-obama/

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  98. “Sammy never claimed that the reports of Border Patrol agents testing positive for TB were false.”

    Milhouse – More words from Sammy:

    “They talk about some Border Patrol people testing positive for TB. He didn’t mention that a large portion of the U.S population does, nor that this exposure actually constitutes the equivalent of a a vaccination. TB is not very contagious, and people with TB are not kept in isolation wards.”

    Who is “They”?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  99. People with active TB are kept in isolation until they give 3 sputum samples (on 3 separate days) that are negative after treatment has begun.
    People with a positive skin test need to be evaluated before it can be said they do not have active TB.

    Years ago, I believe, there was a flock of immigrants into Florida from Haiti or Cuba that were largely pretty bad criminals. I am sure someone remembers the details better than I, or can tell me I am mistaken.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  100. If the federal government isn’t going to have certified paperwork that states that ANYONE entering our country illegally, or as a undocumented angelic refugee, has been medically deemed safe with regard to disease, than they should be transported to other communities in the country.

    Somehow the end of my remark disappeared!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  101. Deport all votas!

    for vota's sake (f7d5ba)

  102. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/10/2014 @ 8:39 am

    sort of completely negates your hyperventilation about false reports of TB, especially with CDC reports of higher incidence in Latin America, doesn’t it?

    It’s still false, because you don’t know what the rate was before, you don’t know what the rate is now, and so you don’t have the conversion rate.

    This is how you calculate the conversion rate: (with presumably realistic numbers)

    http://www.currytbcenter.ucsf.edu/abouttb/tbcontrol_faqs/3_how_calculate_conversion_rates.pdf

    Example

    In 1997, you tested 350 employees, not including new hires. Seven of the employees tested
    (who had had negative TSTs in 1996) had newly positive TSTs. The calculation is 7/350, which
    equals 0.02, or 2% conversion rate.

    U.S. prisons should have a higher rate of tuberculosis and positive TB tests. There was a study that examined it.

    http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/citation/9431293/Incidence_of_tuberculosis_infection_among_New_York_State_prison_employees_

    In 1991 the conversion rate among New York State prison employees was 1.9%, one third of that being estimated as due to occupational exposure.

    That is, the to be expected conversion rate is something like 1.2%

    Now that would seem not to comport with a total U.S. latent tuberculosis rate of 4%, but they may be counting many cases as positive conversions that they still do not count as cases of latent tuberculosis. They may, and probably do, have different cutoff levels for these two things.

    It should be noted that the higher incidence in Latin America is that of people who show an immune reaction, and probably is a higher multiple over active cases than where TB incidence is lower.

    The conversion rate, whcich can only come from active cases, should not be higher than about 2% a year – even if there is a high TB postive test rate – and should be even less than 2% when you factor in the background conversion rate.

    Is latent tuberculosis (which is more serious than a mere conversion to a positive test) that serious? No, it isn’t, and this union official is not talking about anybody getting sick.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_tuberculosis

    Active tuberculosis is contagious while latent tuberculosis is not. It is not possible to get TB from someone with latent tuerculosis. The main risk is that approximately 10% of these patients (5% in the first two years after infection and 0.1% per year thereafter but higher risk if immunosuppressed) will go on to develop active tuberculosis at a later stage of their life.

    Now, it seems to me, that if the rate of developing a disease is 0.1%, which it is two years after exposure if no disease has developed in the meantime, they’ve actually been immunized and the bacteria is probably dead, although they might get exposed again and the immunity wear off.

    Except for the fact someone may be subject to many chest X-rays (which is a problem) turning positive for TB is not a terribly serious thing. TB is not like herpes or hepatitus. It can be cured, unless it is of the multi-drug resistant variety.

    It is also ridiculous for a Border Patrol union official to complain about this because what is he recommending instead? Ultraviolet lights, or more careful medical screening? Or more likely, just complaining and pretending people with active TB, if present, could be wished away?

    What they supposedly want is to detain people. Then they’ve got to take the people with active TB too. Do they want some other people to have that job? I mean, what?

    Apparerently, it is to scare other people. i.e. Look how dangerous they are!

    I tried to find comparative death rates for TB but I can’t seem to get this site to work:

    http://kff.org/global-indicator/tb-death-rate/

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  103. Hadoop: If the federal government isn’t going to have certified paperwork that states that ANYONE entering our country illegally, or as a undocumented angelic refugee, has been medically deemed safe with regard to disease, than they should be transported to other communities in the country.

    It makes no sense to have any different policy with regard to illegal border crossers than legal ones, or than returning American citizens.

    In any case, all those people being released are being medically cleared. In fact, they are the only people coming into the United States who get any kind of medical examination.

    One of the earlier complaints was that they were being vaccinated, which supposedly depleted vaccines available.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  104. “Apparerently, it is to scare other people. i.e. Look how dangerous they are!”

    Sammy – I think it is pretty apparent that the Border Patrol does not want the Administration whisking away seriously infected people to other parts of the country to infect other people. There is no great conspiracy. It’s simple.

    What point were you trying make in the first 80% of your comment. Could you please rewrite it in plain English.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  105. “It makes no sense to have any different policy with regard to illegal border crossers than legal ones, or than returning American citizens.”

    Sammy – Except that we should not have a category of people called “illegal border crossers” if the government was doing its job. D’oh!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  106. This has been one of Sammy’s most successful “squirrels” eveh!

    elissa (886016)

  107. Sammy, rates of disease in a population of people with a positive TB test is
    ENTIRELY DEPENDENT
    on the population in question.
    Rates for employees of a company within the US has
    ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
    to do with the rate of disease of illegal immigrants.

    In fact, even the rate of disease among children in Central America in general has
    LITTLE
    to do with the rate of disease among the illegal immigrant population until it is studied and confirmed that the rates are the same,
    and that cruel and manipulative people aren’t sending kids with HIV infection, active TB, and other diseases preferentially to the US.

    Arguing from ignorance is dangerous. One needs to make sure one is comparing apples to apples, even Red Delicious to Red Delicious.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  108. In any case, all those people being released are being medically cleared. In fact, they are the only people coming into the United States who get any kind of medical examination.

    Unfortunately, my original point was lost in successive remarks. Originally, I stated that the mayor of Murrieta, CA had a right to know this information(could you provide a link where it says they’ve been medically cleared). Milhouse said he didn’t feel it was necessary because they were being kept at a federal facility. I wrote that I thought an elected official who is charged with his constituent’s safety needed that type of information in case of an emergency evacuation scenario. Do you feel that leader’s of the communities where these people are being housed have a right to verify that these people have been medically cleared?

    for vota's sake (f7d5ba)

  109. MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/10/2014 @ 9:41 am

    Years ago, I believe, there was a flock of immigrants into Florida from Haiti or Cuba that were largely pretty bad criminals. I am sure someone remembers the details better than I, or can tell me I am mistaken.

    During the Mariel boatlift in 1980, Fidel Castro kept on sending people who specifically would not be allowed in under general U.S. immigration, hoping to get the U.S. government to stop it, because he knew that if it continued, it would be the end of his regime, and becase all Cubans normally were normally given admission to the United States.

    Castro sent homosexuals, and he sent people from prison, and he looked for whatever the U.S. immigration law excluded.

    Homosexuals were then an exclued category. Today a homosexual has a 98% chance of getting political asylum, even if there is a gay pride parade in his country, just so long as the State Department doesn’t say in its annual report that the treatment of homosexuals in that country is perfect.

    Castro went to his prisons and told people convicted under criminal law (not those labeled political prisoners usually) that they could instantly be rleas3ed, but they had to immediately agree to leave the country. A lot of these people from prison, interestingly enough, qualified more than most for politial asylum, because it was the practice in Cuba when the son or daughter of some official had a relationship with a member of the opposite sex whom the parent did not approve of, to send the person they did not approve of to jail. If if was a boy he was accused of rape, and if it was a girl she was accused of prostitution. There were a whole lot of these people in jail. And some other had committed thefts that really shouldn’t be considered thefts.

    There were also gang members, with tattoos.

    The practice of the INS, upon the Cubans arriving in the United States, was to ask people if they had committed crimes. The people who were railroaded into jail generally were honest, and were locked up and had to work hard to win their asylum claimns, while the real criminals just lied.

    Even when the other people who had come over on the same boat told them what these people really were – and it was possible to tell, for various reasons – what they said was ignored.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  110. Now, it seems to me, … they’ve actually been immunized and the bacteria is probably dead, although they might get exposed again and the immunity wear off.

    Sammy, I am sure there are many things you know that I don’t.
    But TB isn’t one of them.
    No matter how much you read, you will not be able to compete with my 30 years of accumulated experience diagnosing and treating people with TB, and deciding what to do with positive TB tests in the setting of BCG vaccine and negative tests in the setting of HIV.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  111. Dang!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  112. for vota’s sake (f7d5ba) — 7/10/2014 @ 10:12 am

    (could you provide a link where it says they’ve been medically cleared). Milhouse said he didn’t feel it was necessary because they were being kept at a federal facility.

    If they are/were being vaccinated they surely were being medically cleared. That doesn’t mean they don’t have TB or scabies or anything else. But some plan for their medical treatment would be made.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  113. I tried to find comparative death rates for TB but I can’t seem to get this site to work:
    http://kff.org/global-indicator/tb-death-rate/

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969) — 7/10/2014 @ 9:54 am

    Sammy, it wouldn’t mean a bleeping thing if you could get it to work. It is like asking how well Americans play basketball…
    “It depends…”

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  114. MD, it is wise of you to point out once again that we need to be worrying about many types of incoming untreated and undiagnosed diseases and contagious conditions– not only TB– which Mr. Finkelman for some reason has chosen to obsess over exclusively.

    elissa (886016)

  115. Sammy, I am sure there are many things you know that I don’t.
    But TB isn’t one of them.

    Good luck convincing him of that.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  116. In any case, all those people being released are being medically cleared.

    We have seen no evidence to support that statement.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  117. MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/10/2014 @ 10:15 am

    deciding what to do with positive TB tests in the setting of BCG vaccine and negative tests in the setting of HIV.

    so what do you do with positive TB tests.

    The web sites I looked at seems to say, that even though BCG can cause sort of false positives, medical personnel should just ignore that factor, and with people with HIV you need a lower threshhold for everything and they may not test positive even though they are.

    HIV in fact is regarded as responsible for a lot of the revival of TB in the United States

    What I am interested in is the question if there is a distinction between someone having a positive TB test and someone having what is considered latent TB.

    Is there more of the first than the second? The sources aren’t clear about that.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  118. To show that I don’t play favorites:

    From daley’s link:
    Other diseases like dengue and Ebola virus also may be in this wave of illegals, since people are coming from Central and South America, the Middle East and West Africa. Dengue fever, including the hemorrhagic form, is already raging in Puerto Vallerta, Mexico. Ebola virus hemorrhagic fever is seriously out of control in several West African countries.

    That is an idiotic statement.
    There is no more reason to think an illegal crossing into Texas has Ebola than there is to think they have the Andromeda strain.
    I would not trust that person to give me a bandaid.
    Dengue fever, unless something new has happened that I don’t know, is transmitted by mosquito bites. One has more risk of getting dengue from the water in the back of a pick-up truck than from a person with dengue kissing you.

    Like I said before, there are times it seems like no one should be able to talk in public unless they first get cross-examined by our host, or one of you other folks qualified to do so.

    I have other work to do, bye.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  119. @MD

    I also said that because the chances of getting a case of active tuberculosis goes way down after two years have passed since someone’s TB test turned positive, what that person must have undergone is the equivalent of a vaccination (only they can’t tell)

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  120. If they are/were being vaccinated they surely were being medically cleared. That doesn’t mean they don’t have TB or scabies or anything else. But some plan for their medical treatment would be made.

    Fine, where’d you get that information. And you failed to answer my question with regard to what information should be provided to the officials where these people are being housed. And remember, I said that since these elected officials are charged with their citizen’s safety, they should have access to this information to plan for an emergency evacuation. The mayor of Murrieta said he wasn’t given any information.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  121. “I was married to a doctor and she got a needle prick”

    sucks for her, nk, what did you get in return?

    Colonel Haiku (77105a)

  122. What I am interested in is the question if there is a distinction between someone having a positive TB test and someone having what is considered latent TB.
    Is there more of the first than the second? The sources aren’t clear about that.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969) — 7/10/2014 @ 10:25 am

    Last comment for now (I mean it).
    The sources are not clear about that because there is no one right answer.

    It is a balance of cost/benefit.
    If one treated every person with a positive PPD some would die from complications of the meds, some would develop resistant TB because they would not finish their treatment which would last from a few to many months.
    If none were treated, some would go on to develop active TB and not only get sick themselves but spread it to others.

    So, there are recommendations made by consensus of when the risk of untreated TB makes it worth the risk of treating someone without live TB with the meds.
    You cannot tell in an individual person for certainty, whether they have a positive TB test and no living TB in their body and or a positive TB and a small number of living but dormant TB (latent) that can reactivate at a latter time,
    the best that can be done is look at the odds for a specified population.
    For example, the rate may actually be different from one prison to another, but it would be hard to determine that from the smallish numbers.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  123. It’s the secrecy in and surrounding the “government camps” that is exacerbating the concern of average citizens. Why is the secrecy deemed necessary if there is in fact nothing to hide?

    elissa (886016)

  124. what that person must have undergone is the equivalent of a vaccination (only they can’t tell)
    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969) — 7/10/2014 @ 10:27 am

    NO, you are wrong.
    What they may have undergone is seeded with a deadly organism, quietly sleeping in some lymph node, waiting to bust out and cause havoc when the person is in a weakened state, including from malnutrition.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  125. Perhaps after decades.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  126. It’s the secrecy in and surrounding the “government camps” that is exacerbating the concern of average citizens. Why is the secrecy deemed necessary if there is in fact nothing to hide?

    That has been my point all along. Like I said to Milhouse, this all started when the government dumped a bunch of illegals at a bus station in Phoenix, AZ, without telling the local authorities.

    ∅ released some criminal illegals who had been detained without notification, so I feel the mistrust is justified.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  127. 77.Steve57 (cd4182) — 7/10/2014 @ 12:06 am

    Those poor, dumb amateurs think swine flu is still around.

    Not the dangerous swine flu.

    Again, you need to get that info to the CDC.

    http://www.cdc.gov/flu/swineflu/keyfacts-variant.htm#variantinfluenza

    Influenza viruses that infect pigs are different from human influenza viruses. Thus, influenza vaccines made against human influenza viruses are generally not expected to protect people from influenza viruses that normally circulate in pigs. In addition, because pigs are susceptible to avian, human and swine influenza viruses, they potentially may be infected with influenza viruses from different species (e.g., ducks and humans) at the same time. If this happens, it is possible for the genes of these viruses to mix and create a new virus that could spread easily from person-to-person. This type of major change in the influenza A viruses is known as antigenic shift. Antigenic shift results when a new influenza A virus to which most people have little or no immune protection infects humans. If this new virus causes illness in people and can be transmitted easily from person-to-person, an influenza pandemic can occur. This is what happened in 2009 when an influenza A H1N1 virus with swine, avian and human genes emerged in the spring of 2009 and caused the first pandemic in more than 40 years.

    http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/

    … The U.S. 2010-2011 seasonal influenza vaccine will protect against an H3N2 virus, an influenza B virus, and the 2009 H1N1 virus that emerged last year to cause the first global pandemic in more than 40 years and resulted in substantial illness, hospitalizations and deaths.

    Because the poor, dumb amateurs working there think there have been dangerous strains of the swine flu as late as 2009.

    There was a very stupid theory about nfluenza running around in 1976.
    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969) — 7/10/2014 @ 8:01 am

    Thanks to the interwebs, Sammy, you can now spread it faster.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  128. Departures from the Unioted States are not now being tracked

    76. nk (dbc370) — 7/10/2014 @ 7:54 am

    Since when?

    Since ever.

    And what kind of departures? Airlines collect the I-94s; what do they do with them? They’re subject to strict laws about transporting undocumented travelers. And I imagine ships are too.

    The I-94 form (or its electronic equivalent) is collected from people arriving in the United States – the United States does not now collect any forms from people leaving the United States, even though Congress mandated years ago more than once that such a system should be set up. They may be taking half-steps toward it.

    As a result someone can overstay a visa, and then leave quietly, with no black mark.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  129. 134. OK, that is one origin of new flu variations, but there is no special disease called “swine flu”

    In 1976 there was this whole idea that flu mutated in some kind of predictable way, and that you could have a repeat of 1918, and there was also an outbreak at Ft Dix, New Jersey, which was quickly contained, and that new flu variety became extinct.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  130. “That is an idiotic statement.”

    MD in Philly – I completely agree, but I think her overall point is that there is no freaking transparency from the most transparent Administration EVAH! Illegal immigrants from West Africa have been detained coming across the southern border in the past. The public is being told nothing about where the current crop of immigrants is originating or what issues they may, or for those accusing others of racism and bigotry without evidence, may not be bringing with them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  131. Here is a link to a DHS Inspector General report on the CBP’s Handling of
    Unaccompanied Alien Children issued in September 2010. I did not find any updates.

    For those of you who have made the specious allegation that talking about infectious diseases is just racist, xenophobic fear mongering because otherwise it would have been mentioned before, please read the report. Infectious diseases, their monitoring and treatment, including TB are specifically mentioned as areas needing improvement, during a time when UAC volume was a fraction of its current size.

    http://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/OIG_10-117_Sep10.pdf

    You are very welcome.

    Please wake up and stop making crap up.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  132. 130. elissa (886016) — 7/10/2014 @ 10:37 am

    Why is the secrecy deemed necessary if there is in fact nothing to hide?

    The Obama Administration is more concerned with leaks than almost anyone else before. I suppose earlier they were trying to hide the whole thing. It’s not like there was nothing to hide. ut that doesn’t mean that any incredible claim that anybody makes is the truth.

    It’s obvious what should be done is that everybody should be given permission to talk, under their own name or anonymously. That’s the only way to combat the lying. But that would require someone to take some initiative and have some sense.

    The result of their secrecy is that the only people who talk are people who have a strong motive to talk, and they can safely make up things because there’s nobody around to contradict them. (and that’s what the union is doing)

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  133. MD in Philly – One reason I provided the links I did is we had certain commenters complaining about anonymous quotes. The links I provided included people willing to go on the record. Who from the Administration has gone on the record specifically about the health side of the illegal immigration flood?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  134. Sammy–again, please review the chapter on “rhetorical questions”.

    elissa (886016)

  135. It’s obvious what should be done is that everybody should be given permission to talk, under their own name or anonymously. That’s the only way to combat the lying. But that would require someone to take some initiative and have some sense.

    The result of their secrecy is that the only people who talk are people who have a strong motive to talk, and they can safely make up things because there’s nobody around to contradict them. (and that’s what the union is doing)

    And? And this way the administration gets to say that any allegations are unfounded, which perpetuates any misinformation. I believe this is by design. That way they can just claim there’s a bunch of conspiracy theorists. It’s disingenuous and foments fear in direct contradiction to what this administration claims to want.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  136. Sammy Finkelman (cd2969) — 7/10/2014 @ 11:00 am

    Sammy, you have stepped into an alternate universe today.

    nk (dbc370)

  137. 132. MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/10/2014 @ 10:38 am

    Perhaps after decades.

    Viruses come back after decades (e.g, chicken pox, which comes back as shingles)

    But bacteria?

    Now, I suppose there could be a never stamped out low-grade infection. But surely, in a lot of cases, it is simply gone. They always talk about TB scars from old infections. Is this lymph node idea anything more than a theory? I would a continuing small infection is possible.

    If something comes back, I suppose one day they will able to do DNA testing to see if it’s the same old infection or something new, as this kind of testing to trace the path of an outbreak is increasingly being done and may become standard.

    They have traced outbreaks, and find out how it spread. I don’t know if anytime, this was ever attributed to someone who originally got infected many years before. This doesn’t sound right.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  138. The Obama Administration is more concerned with leaks than almost anyone else before. I suppose earlier they were trying to hide the whole thing. It’s not like there was nothing to hide. ut that doesn’t mean that any incredible claim that anybody makes is the truth.

    What “whole thing were they trying to hide” are you referring to? Spell it out, Sammy! I had to explain what I was talking about with regard to informing local authorities whose communities these people we being housed in, and why? You ignored my question regarding local officials having the right to know the medical condition of those people in case of an emergency. Are you for them getting this type of information? If not, why?

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  139. 90. The fact is that we have no solid evidence of a higher rate of serious infectious disease among them, and anonymous sources are inherently not reliable.
    Milhouse (b95258) — 7/10/2014 @ 8:59 am

    Of course we have no solid evidence. The government is successfully suppressing it. We have solid evidence of the latter fact.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/382326/potemkin-press-tour-illegals-camp-lags-ussr-standards-deroy-murdock

    As a journalist, I have been fortunate enough to visit and write from South Africa under apartheid, El Salvador during its Marxist insurgency, the Soviet Union under Communism, and Cuba during the endless reign of the immortal Fidel Castro. In each of these places, I was permitted — in fact, invited – to ask questions, challenge the thoughts of my hosts, and photograph what I saw.

    …Thus, I was stunned and disgusted by Obama’s below-U.S.S.R.-grade rules imposed on journalists invited to a “media tour” of the temporary shelter for illegal aliens at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. This visit, scheduled for 2:00 p.m. Central time tomorrow, is supposed to familiarize journalists with the locale at which the U.S. government is housing some 1,200 unaccompanied alien children who recently have broken into the United States. This is not a serious opportunity for journalists to learn about this place in depth and probe those detained there, as well as their hosts. Instead, this is a propaganda stunt worthy of North Korea.

    Quoting directly from a July 7 invitation to this event, consider the handcuffs that Team Obama has forged for news people who bother to attend this sham field trip:

    - No recording devices will be allowed

    - No questions will be allowed during the tour

    - No interacting with staff and children at the shelter

    - We ask that your questions be provided via email or phone after the tour to Kenneth Wolfe [Deputy Director, Office of Public Affairs, U.S. Department of Health and Human Service]

    - HHS ACF [Administration for Children and Families] public affairs will provide answers to your follow up questions as quickly as possible

    - We will provide photos of the facility after the tour

    - There will be no on-site interviews by HHS staff before or after the tour, all inquiries go to Kenneth Wolfe

    The totalitarians in the Obama administration won’t even allow congress members to talk to the inmates or staff at these detention camps in their own districts.

    So under the circumstances, the only sane thing to do is go with the anonymous sources. Especially since the few people who have spoken out publicly (and consequently had their jobs threatened, since they have been operating under a gag order imposed by Obama) have confirmed the main points of the anonymous reports.

    Or you can be hopelessly naive and believe the administration that accepted a “transparency in government” award in a secret ceremony, closed to the press and public. The only reason any administration has to impose the above rules on the press (and congress) is when they have something to hide.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  140. elissa – I think the CIA is infecting “certain populations” (IYKWIMAIKTTYD) with tuberculosis bacteria for some unknown purpose, just as they infected certain other populations with the AIDS virus years ago. It’s all part of some Sooper Seekrit Plan that Obama is struggling to keep a lid on. :)

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  141. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/10/2014 @ 11:14 am

    please read the report. Infectious diseases, their monitoring and treatment, including TB are specifically mentioned as areas needing improvement, during a time when UAC volume was a fraction of its current size.

    http://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/OIG_10-117_Sep10.pdf

    I see nothing there about any infections being a danger to others nor that any major improvement is needed.

    The sole reference to infectious diseases (aside from sanitation, which implicitly would concern Montezuma’s revenge and the like) is on page 12 and 13 and says:

    The Flores Agreement requires that UAC have access to emergency medical assistance. OBP’s Policy for Encounters with Injured Subjects requires that all individuals who are injured or require medical assistance
    when encountered by BP agents be provided access to medical treatment.

    In addition, OBP’s Hold Room and Short-Term Custody policy specifies that a qualified medical professional, such as an emergency medical technician (EMT), paramedic, or physician, evaluate detainees who require medical attention or display symptoms of serious infectious diseases or contagions such as tuberculosis, severe acute respiratory syndrome, or pandemic influenza.

    I can’t find any hint taht that is not being handled properly, nor any recommendation that touches on that.

    The only complaint is the Office of Field Operations is doing all the medical screening but the Office of Border Patrol is not dloing what it should. The Inpector General seems mostly concerned about injuries not being reported or recorded.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  142. Elissa, IMHO the reason for the secrecy is that the illegals are not children, at all. And photos would prove that. For it to be a humanitarian crisis we have to be fooled into thinking it is all adorable toddlers and not MS13 thugs and 8 year old killers.

    Gazzer (192e59)

  143. 147. Many claims about UFOs could have been dispelled if there was less secrecy, but the secrecy didn’t mean there were UFOs.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  144. Gazzer @149, of course they’re children.

    The kind of children who can stay on their parents health insurance policy until they’re 26. Get on board with the new definitions, man!

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  145. Gazzer @149. IMHO the reason for the secrecy is that the illegals are not children, at all. And photos would prove that. For it to be a humanitarian crisis we have to be fooled into thinking it is all adorable toddlers and not MS13 thugs and 8 year old killers.

    There is no age breakdown, that’s true,

    Most probably are in their mid to late teens. Well mid-teens, as the cutoff for being considered a child is 18.

    I suppose some people might be lying about their date of birth too, as happens in sports, and they were really not born after mid-July, 1996, or whatever was 18 years ago the day they arrived. (or do they age out of the system?)

    The children are free to talk, especially after being released, and they’ve been on the news. They do go down to tween ages, (ages 8-12) and now – according to the anonymous BP leaks – they’ve even gotten toddlers and a number of infants. I presume the percentage is very low.

    The very, very young children are brought over by other people who, when they get to Texas, say they are not the parents or guardians of the child, so they can be given to their parents or other close relatives.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  146. Sorry Steve. Naturally, I denounce myself.

    Gazzer (192e59)

  147. Many claims about UFOs could have been dispelled if there was less secrecy, but the secrecy didn’t mean there were UFOs

    Thanks for avoiding my question and going off on a tangent. Since you don’t seem to take a community that has legitimate concerns with what our federal government is doing seriously, GTH! Disasters are usually worsened due to poor public planning. When a public official takes his oath of office seriously he’s labeled a conspiracy theorist, and written off as a partisan hack. I predict this will not end well, and it’ll be due to the government’s lack of transparency.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  148. “I see nothing there about any infections being a danger to others nor that any major improvement is needed.”

    Sammy – Did I claim the above was in there? Please stop distorting my words.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  149. 150. 147. Many claims about UFOs could have been dispelled if there was less secrecy, but the secrecy didn’t mean there were UFOs.
    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969) — 7/10/2014 @ 11:52 am

    No, the secrecy meant there were UFOs. Since the acronymn “UFO” simply means an unidentified flying object, due to secrecy concerns the government refused to identify some of them when they otherwise might have.

    But that didn’t mean there were space aliens flying them. UFO doesn’t even hae anything to do with space aliens. Just flying objects.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  150. Sammy,

    You’ve attended one too many comic conventions.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  151. Hadoop (f7d5ba) — 7/10/2014 @ 11:37 am

    What “whole thing were they trying to hide” are you referring to? Spell it out, Sammy!

    The fact that there were a large number of minors crossing the border. The number of people processed was accumulating.

    There is political opposition to housing large numbers of people in certain localities (largely because of the riots in 1980 when these camps – like Ft. Chaffee Arkansas contained large numbers of criminals. taht contributed to Bill Clinton;s surprise defeat for re-election as governor in 1980. Carter had been interested in having a Governor that didn’t complain.)

    I had to explain what I was talking about with regard to informing local authorities whose communities these people we being housed in, and why?

    They are all being scattered across the country whereever they have some guardians willing to take care of them. Before that happens they may in some kind of semi-public facility. This cannot and s not being done secretly.

    You ignored my question regarding local officials having the right to know the medical condition of those people in case of an emergency.

    What medical condition? What emergency? No news is good news.

    There is no reason to suppose they’ve got Ebola or something like that. Ebola kills very fast and you couldn’t hide it.

    Are you for them getting this type of information? If not, why?

    They don’t need it. And they can find out for themselves, too.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  152. “I can’t find any hint taht that is not being handled properly, nor any recommendation that touches on that.”

    Sammy – Your problem, not mine.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  153. Is your problem Townhall?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/9/2014 @ 2:36 pm

    Honestly, I put Townhall about one notch above Joseph Farah’s WorldNetDaily. So … 3/10 for accuracy.

    In this case, it was an anonymous thirdhand quote. An anonymous agent told an anonymous Townhall source(maybe Katie Pavlich?) that an anonymous illegal immigrant gangbanger was bragging about killing someone when he was eight years old. Seriously, I question that thin of a source even more than I question this administration.

    I don’t doubt that there are huge problems with MS-13 abusing these channels, but really, some anonymous jailhouse or customs agent braggadocio about the next Yummy Sandaford is just big talk.

    elissa – I resolve to be less of a dick. Probably something in the lithium bicarbonate family would help.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  154. 156. I said:

    Many claims about UFOs could have been dispelled if there was less secrecy, but the secrecy didn’t mean there were UFOs.

    All right, maybe that should have been:

    Many claims about UFOs could have been dispelled if there was less secrecy, but the secrecy didn’t mean that many of the claims, like them being flown by space aliens, were true.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  155. carlitos danger,

    Townhall is a very reputable organization. It is now owned by Salem Broadcasting, which distributes radio talkers Bill Bennett, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, and Hugh Hewitt.
    You, on the other hand, promote phony global warming hysterics.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  156. “I can’t find any hint taht that is not being handled properly, nor any recommendation that touches on that.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/10/2014 @ 12:15 pm

    Sammy – Your problem, not mine.

    Well, where do you find that in this document:

    http://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/OIG_10-117_Sep10.pdf

    There’s a whole list of recommendations.

    Doing more to prevent the spread of TB, or SARS, or pandemic influenza, or even doing more to treat active TB, is not one of them.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  157. What medical condition? What emergency? No news is good news.

    There is no reason to suppose they’ve got Ebola or something like that. Ebola kills very fast and you couldn’t hide it.

    I said in case of an emergency. Shouldn’t no news is good news be ignorance is bliss? Who said anything about Ebola? All I said was that local officials should be informed about the people being housed in their community to be able to plan IN CASE OF AN EMERGENCY. It seemed like a pretty straight forward question. Your lack of a coherent response tells me all I need to know. You don’t care how any community in the US is affected with regard to this situation. You could have just said that instead of all the other nonsense you wrote.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  158. Sammy’s idea of a great mayor has to be Doomberg, who’d rather focus on transfats and salt content in restaurant food, and soda. Oh yeah, and guns! Because nothing says you don’t need guns like a billionaire with armed guards.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  159. “I see nothing there about any infections being a danger to others nor that any major improvement is needed.”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/10/2014 @ 12:11 pm

    Sammy – Did I claim the above was in there? Please stop distorting my words.

    You said, above @138

    Infectious diseases, their monitoring and treatment, including TB are specifically mentioned as areas needing improvement, during a time when UAC volume was a fraction of its current size

    They are not mentioned as an ara needing even minor improvement.

    Monitoring and treatment of “serious infectious diseases or contagions” are NOT mentioned as an area needing improvement at all.

    They are just mentioned.

    It is said

    OBP’s Hold Room and Short-Term Custody policy specifies that a qualified medical professional, such as an emergency medical technician (EMT), paramedic, or physician, evaluate detainees who require medical attention or display symptoms of serious infectious or contagions…

    Then it says maybe injuries or illnesses aren’t being reported.

    It is perhaps implied that they ought to have a qualified medical professional, such as an emergency medical technician (EMT), paramedic, or physician on hand, and not rely on self-reporting.

    What it says there is

    Requesting information from juveniles about their medical condition might be a useful tool in assessing their physical well-being.

    That’s it.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  160. Sammy,

    Are you on drugs ?
    Get. Help.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  161. Hadoop (f7d5ba) — 7/10/2014 @ 12:26 pm

    All I said was that local officials should be informed about the people being housed in their community to be able to plan IN CASE OF AN EMERGENCY.

    I am pretty sure everyone is abiding by all building codes and zoning regulations. I have not read any complaint that they haven’t.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  162. Hadoop (f7d5ba) — 7/10/2014 @ 12:31 pm

    Oh yeah, and guns! Because nothing says you don’t need guns like a billionaire with armed guards.

    “Stop and Frisk” was all about seizing guns.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  163. Bloomberg had a bunch of stupidities including transfats and the size of soda bottles, but he was quite different from your typical Democrat.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  164. Sammy,

    You glossed over the fact that Bloomberg wanted to allow armed guards for himself, but not for other people.

    Oopsie-poopsie !

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  165. Bloomberg had a bunch of stupidities including transfats and the size of soda bottles, but he was quite different from your typical Democrat.

    Yeah, he was willing to spend his own money. Was he ever a democrat, or are you equating democrat to fascist? If so, I agree.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  166. Townhall is a very reputable organization. It is now owned by Salem Broadcasting, which distributes radio talkers Bill Bennett, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, and Hugh Hewitt.
    You, on the other hand, promote phony global warming hysterics.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/10/2014 @ 12:23 pm

    Of course I know that, as a long time Prager and Hewitt listener. They also publish Anne Coulter.

    By the way, not sure if you’ve ever listened to his show, but Michael Medved believes in bigfoot. Prager is enjoyable, but his arguments are hollow and riddled with logical fallacies. I miss listening to Hugh Hewitt, but I don’t think he’s on live around here anymore, and I can’t be bothered to download his pay podcast.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  167. Ann Coulter, derp.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  168. You glossed over the fact that Bloomberg wanted to allow armed guards for himself, but not for other people.

    He glosses over every question he has no NYT-esque answer for. The crack about the building code is a prime example of his attempt at humor. Not his community, not his problem. Downstaters are like that.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  169. carlitos not so dangerous,

    Once again, you prove that definitions have little meaning to you.
    Salem does not actually “publish” Ann Coulter.
    Rather, they pay to run her column, which is actually distributed by United Press Syndicate.
    She also appears often on left wing Bill Maher’s HBO Show, as well as on various left wing shows on CNN. So, does that automatically disqualify everything you’ve heard on HBO or CNN ?
    The Los Angeles Times used to run Jonah Goldberg’s column—does that automatically disqualify the LA Times in your eyes ?
    Good Lord, man.

    Prager, Medved, and Hewitt are all outstanding commentators.
    You just happen to disagree with their politics because you’re a dime-a-dozen Chicago Democrat.
    But it’s hilarious how you so often seek to shut down dissenting views by right wingers, by ascribing guilt of association. “TOWNHALL IS THE SOURCE, THERFORE IT’S NO GOOD !!!!1!!1!!”

    Ironically, you never use that standard when it comes to the various discredited “global warming” sources.
    Or even the White House, where lies emanate from on a daily basis.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  170. Carlitos prefers Ed Schultz and the Pacifica Network

    Colonel Haiku (5de7c8)

  171. And speaking of our friend carlitos and his famous “global warming !!!1!!” proclamations of the past, there’s going to be a cold front coming next week.
    No doubt caused by…SUVs !

    I had been told for years that those cold fronts were supposed to disappear due to…carbon emissions.
    So why is one coming in July ?
    Or something.
    Good grief, Charlie Brown.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  172. And speaking of our friend carlitos and his famous “global warming !!!1!!” proclamations of the past, there’s going to be a cold front coming next week.
    No doubt caused by…SUVs !

    I’ll bet carlitos rides a bike everywhere he goes. I’ll bet he has a very smart little house with no frills, cause that’d be too ostentatious and wasteful. I’ll be he’s a vegan, so none of the cow-farting murder meat consumed could be blamed for cold weather in July.

    I wish I could be a better cosmopolitan, but I have to travel 35 miles to get to school. D@mn, I hate me!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  173. I’ll be he’s a vegan, so none of the cow-farting murder meat consumed could be blamed on him for cold weather in July.

    It’s a bad week to give up drinking coffee!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  174. Hadoop,

    Our friend carlitos would never be caught flying a Lear Jet or driving a Maserati or having a mansion that uses thousands of dollars of electricity per month like…Al Gore.

    Al Gore’s problem was getting caught.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  175. narciso (24b824) — 7/10/2014 @ 1:56 pm

    She wants a Republican senate no matter what. I’ve read a few of her books. Treason was the best. She got me to read Blacklisted by History,—a very difficult read but well sourced and footnoted.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  176. Better not be Googling, otherwise 7 grams of CO2 is spewed into the air! We’re all gonna die! Game over man, game over!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  177. Salem does not actually “publish” Ann Coulter.


    Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/10/2014 @ 1:19 pm

    You should really get your facts straight before you go off the deep end like this.

    Camarillo, CA – (Marketwired – January 13, 2014) – Salem Communications Corporation (NASDAQ: SALM) today announced the acquisition of the assets of Eagle Publishing, including Regnery Publishing, HumanEvents.com, and Redstate.com, as well as sister companies Eagle Financial Publications and Eagle Wellness.

    http://salem.cc/print-pages/regnery-publishing-inc/

    Regnery has published dozens of bestselling books by leading conservative authors and personalities, including Ann Coulter

    you’re a dime-a-dozen Chicago Democrat.

    If you want your vote to count in Chicago, sometimes you have to vote democrat. I have voted for the most pro-business Democrat in the last few Alderman elections. There were no Republican candidates. I also voted for Rahm Emmanuel over Gery Chico. Sue me.

    “TOWNHALL IS THE SOURCE, THERFORE IT’S NO GOOD !!!!1!!1!!”

    Scroll up, look at what I actually wrote about this anonymous thirdhand jailhouse illegal-immigrant quote, and maybe take a couple of deep breaths. Seriously.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  178. Carlitos prefers Ed Schultz and the Pacifica Network

    Colonel Haiku (5de7c8) — 7/10/2014 @ 1:30 pm

    Pacifica airs 9/11 truthers and “the young turks.” I would never listen to that.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  179. More about TB:

    http://www.cdc.gov/tb/statistics/default.htm

    Tuberculosis (TB) is one of the world’s deadliest diseases:

    •One third of the world’s population is infected with TB.

    ??!

    Then it says 9 million people became sick in 2012, worldwide. (that’s 1.5 per thousand)

    About 1.3 million died.

    But 2 billion are infected, says the CDC.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  180. O/T Rep. Stockman: We just filed resolution to have Lois Lerner arrested! So the ball-less GOPe is going to actually do something.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  181. And speaking of our friend carlitos and his famous “global warming !!!1!!” proclamations of the past, there’s going to be a cold front coming next week.
    No doubt caused by…SUVs !

    I had been told for years that those cold fronts were supposed to disappear due to…carbon emissions.
    So why is one coming in July ?
    Or something.
    Good grief, Charlie Brown.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/10/2014 @ 1:42 pm

    If you’re too stupid to understand that the climate doesn’t equal “the air temperature where I live on any given day,” you should probably shut up.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  182. My girlfriend has TB, Sammy—Two Beauts!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  183. Canada’s inhumane treatement of Eskimos for TB in the 1950s (They sent people to sanitariums, cured them, but never kept track of their families so their families never knew what happened to them)

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  184. If you’re too stupid to understand that the climate doesn’t equal “the air temperature where I live on any given day,” you should probably shut up.

    We’re gonna die!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  185. “Honestly, I put Townhall about one notch above Joseph Farah’s WorldNetDaily. So … 3/10 for accuracy.”

    carlitos – Heh! I put CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, The New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, Think Progress and Media Matters three notches below Townhall for accuracy and member of the Obama Administration four notches.

    Plus, when I was twelve I had a Canadian girlfriend. Her name was Chantal, you hoser.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  186. If they were cured, then they were probably made into Eskimo bacon or jerky!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  187. Re: Lois Lerner:

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/09/lois-lerner-in-2013-need-to-be-cautious-about-what-say-in-emails/

    At that point she was concerned about the IRS Chat system.

    She didn’t want Congress to get things.

    She wanted to know whether or not she could use it undetected by Congress.

    This was a little over a month before she took a leave of absence.

    On April 9, 2013, Lerner, the director of Exempt Organization at the IRS, sent an email to IT employee Maria Hooke, asking about the OCS [Office Communications Server] and whether Congress could access those messages.

    “I was cautioning folks about email and how we have had several occasions where Congress has asked for emails and there has been an electronic search for responsive emails — so we need to be cautious about what we say in emails,” Lerner wrote.

    She forwarded a question about whether the chat system conversations were also searchable.

    Hooke responded that the messages “are not set to automatically save” but anyone could “copy and save the contents” to an email or file.

    She recommended that the agency treat these conversations “as if it could/is being saved [somewhere], as it is possible for either party of the conversation to retain the information and have it turn up as part of the electronic search.”

    Lerner replied: “Perfect.”

    The word somewhere is in Fox News’ brackets. The explanation of what OCS stands for is mine.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  188. Plus, when I was twelve I had a Canadian girlfriend. Her name was Chantal, you hoser.

    Used to cross the border at Niagara to get the good Molson’s Golden 5% ABV!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  189. Here’s the link to the web story about Canada and tuberculosis:

    https://news.vice.com/article/how-canadas-poor-record-keeping-broke-up-4000-families

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  190. Ms. Lerner may disappear like ∅’s Man’s Country friend, Donald Young!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  191. 160. In this case, it was an anonymous thirdhand quote. An anonymous agent told an anonymous Townhall source(maybe Katie Pavlich?) that an anonymous illegal immigrant gangbanger was bragging about killing someone when he was eight years old. Seriously, I question that thin of a source even more than I question this administration.

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 7/10/2014 @ 12:16 pm

    On what basis do you question it?

    Having spent time in Panama working with these guys, I have no reason to question the fact it could easily be true.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/dod/jitf.htm

    The JIATF’s mission within the U.S. Southern Command AOR is to plan, conduct, and direct interagency detection, monitoring, and sorting operations of air and maritime drug smuggling activities; plan and conduct flexible operations to detect, monitor, disrupt and deter the cultivation, production and transportation of illicit narcotics; utilize and integrate C4I systems to efficiently coordinate operations and intelligence information with other counterdrug centers, law enforcement agencies, and domestic and international counterdrug partners; and collect, fuse, and disseminate counterdrug information from all participating agencies to the detection and monitoring forces for tactical action.

    But then I read the products produced by EPIC as part of my job.

    http://www.justice.gov/dea/ops/intel.shtml

    Based on my information (not all of which was classified so I’m not giving away any secrets here), it would be rare for an 8 y.o. to become a killer but not entirely unheard of. Usually Central American gangs recruit kids 10 years or older.

    Not that the kid would necessarily have to be a gang member yet to kill someone.

    But then you can turn kids into killers at younger ages precisely because they’re easier to manipulate. In Africa, the middle east, Sri Lanka, and throughout Asia there have been many child soldiers who were recruited at as young as 7 years of age. One of the things these children are often compelled to do as part of their recruitment (child soldiers are typically “recruited” the same way Boko Haram “recruits” wives) is to commit atrocities against their families so they don’t have the option of escaping and ever going back. By all accounts once these child soldiers are indoctrinated, and that doesn’t take long, they are the worst of the worst when it comes to incorrigible killers.

    The info about these child soldiers isn’t from EPIC; there’s plenty of reliable open source material if you care to check.

    Gangs recruit children for the same reason(but not only this reason); because they’re easier to manipulate.

    I don’t doubt that there are huge problems with MS-13 abusing these channels, but really, some anonymous jailhouse or customs agent braggadocio about the next Yummy Sandaford is just big talk.

    On what basis do you discount it entirely as “braggadocio?”

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  192. Chillax, Sammy! Not your neighborhood, not your problem, memba!

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  193. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/globalwarming2.html

    Hadoop (f7d5ba) — 7/10/2014 @ 2:28 pm

    Since you guys love my criticism of your … “sources,” this is an exceptional one.

    Please go to “whatreallyhappened.com” and have a look. You can see how the Jews did 9/11, how TWA 800 was shot down by the US Navy, how Obama’s birth certificate is a hoax, and how Pearl Harbor was an inside job.

    Jesus Christ, are you trying to do a parody of conservative commenters?

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  194. carlitos,

    Again, you’re still playing to the grandstands—just as you do with your “global warming” hysterics.
    I already told you that Salem owns Townhall when I wrote, “Townhall is a very reputable organization. It is now owned by Salem Broadcasting,…”

    Salem runs (or “prints”)a zillion columns, including Ann Coulter’s column—as do a zillion other media outlets.
    United Press Syndicate publishes and distributes her column.
    Also, Regnery published Ann’s most recent book—but it was published before Regnery was actually acquired by Salem.

    The larger point is that you say you give Townhall a 3 out of 10 for accuracy, and that you say you trust them less for accuracy than the Obama Administration.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  195. On what basis do you discount it entirely as “braggadocio?”

    Steve57 (cd4182) — 7/10/2014 @ 2:35 pm

    The complete lack of sourcing.

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  196. “•One third of the world’s population is infected with TB.”

    Samy – Good thing it’s not very infectious, right Sammy? LOL, derp!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  197. Steve57,

    What our friend carlitos danger is trying to say is that if Townhall had simply invented data and computer models like the “global warming” nutjobs do, he’d be more likely to embrace the “sourcing.”

    Good Allah.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  198. “If you’re too stupid to understand that the climate doesn’t equal “the air temperature where I live on any given day,” you should probably shut up.”

    carlitos – I understand that climate means whatever the fanatics say it means and it explains whatever the fanatics say it explains.

    Can you explain to an ignorant denier such as myself though why they have to keep tampering with the actual reported temperature records to lower temperatures in the first half of the last century to create an artificial warming trend. I have never received a good explanation for that and it does not seem like any scientific method I have ever heard of before except one designed to reach a predetermined conclusion.

    Thanks in advance.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  199. I’m taking elissa’s advice and getting out of here, at least for a while. Enjoy. JD / daley, you know where to find me if you want some crappy golf companionship,

    carlitos (c24ed5)

  200. shorter jay carney carlitos,

    “I don’t have an answer for you at this time.”

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  201. I just accidentally erased a long ranting post, perhaps it was for the better…

    By even the worst of US standards, to put a child at risk by allowing, not to mention encouraging, the child to take a trip across Mexico should put the parents in jail; for child endangerment and have custody of the child taken over by others.

    have the countries of origin verify they have the appropriate people in jail, we take care of the children until we send them back to a family member deemed worthy to care for the child.
    hey, they could go to Costa Rica, a much shorter distance, a beautiful country, same language, universal health care, and not an evil oppressive country like the US.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969) — 7/10/2014 @ 11:33 am
    Sammy, as I said before, you are not a doctor and I am not going to argue with you.
    TB is what is what is called an “acid fast bacteria”, very different from the more common types of bacteria swimming around in your mouth and skin.
    And the body fights it primarily with what is called cell-mediated immunity, as opposed to antibodies, which are usually involved in what we think of as “vaccinations”,
    Yes, some of those little TB buggers may be alive but in “hibernation” in those old TB scars, and in lymph nodes and such that do not seem abnormal,
    they hang out until the person gets week, and the cell-mediated immunity no longer keeps them sleeping.
    That is an oversimplification, but close enough.

    If you want more, I will charge you $200/hr in 15 minute increments for a personal tutorial (NOT “medical advice”, but instruction in mycobacteriology).

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  202. Jesus Christ, are you trying to do a parody of conservative commenters?

    I’ve given up trying to be serious here. You’re assertions about global warming are just as valid as anyone else. If the science is not determined by the scientific method, then I’m skeptical—period! If you’re messing with the raw data and you refuse to give up the formulation of the algorithms that your computer models use for your conclusions and predictions—I’m skeptical. I’m not a scientist but I have taken college level science courses up to and including physics. I’ve spent nearly 15 years in R&D in scientific research. Open up the books(technical reports and lab notebooks) and let the chips fall where they may. That hasn’t happened. I filed the technical reports for my company. You don’t get to pick and choose what you release. It’s that simple.

    I live a pretty spartan life by choice. I don’t see others who claim to be worried about man’s effect on the environment living like they believe it’s a crisis. That make me suspicious. Like I said, open the books and start living the life you believe will save the planet. I’m more than willing to listen, even if I’m called names for being skeptical.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  203. Oh look, here’s another link to a report from the OIG of the DHS. This one is from December 2009 and relates to the authorization of immigrant detainee medical treatment. Is Tuberculosis mentioned in the report? Funny that you should ask. Yes, yes it is.

    http://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/OIG_10-23_Dec09.pdf

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  204. 206. Steve57,

    What our friend carlitos danger is trying to say is that if Townhall had simply invented data and computer models like the “global warming” nutjobs do, he’d be more likely to embrace the “sourcing.”

    Good Allah.
    Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/10/2014 @ 2:46 pm

    Yes, Townhall can’t be believed because the MS-13 story tracks precisely along with the gang’s established, real world track record. As opposed to an entirely fictional track record, like the “hockey stick.”

    If you’re going to reject reality,go all the way.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  205. Steve,

    MS-13 ?
    Who/what is that ?
    That sounds like a fictitious name of a fictitious gang that was invented by the fictitious reporters at Townhall.
    Or something.

    And what is this tuberculosis disease of which some of our other friends speak ? That sounds like a made-up disease from an episode of Star Trek.
    Or whatever.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  206. Of course TB is an issue.

    People in the US die largely of diseases of affluence or old age,
    people in the developing world die of infectious diseases or the hazards of trying to make a living under dangerous conditions.
    and war
    and lack of supplies often caused by corruption
    and war.

    people who say it is not an issue are crazy
    people who want to scare with claims about Ebola and the Andromeda Strain aren’t helping much.

    As said before by others, a little transparency would go a long way

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  207. carlitos – I think JD knows a Gentlemen’s Club with a good lunch buffet. :)

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  208. “MS-13 ?
    Who/what is that ?”

    ES – Isn’t it a club that gets together that likes tattoos?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  209. daley,

    When you meet carlitos there, make sure you document that he actually rode his bicycle.
    That’s because he’s totally convinced me that every single carbon emission strikes another potential death blow for planet Earth.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  210. daley,

    “MS-13″ sounds like the 13th Congressional district in Ole Miss.
    But I don’t think they have that many districts.
    Hmmmm…
    So yeah, I’m going to say it’s probably just a harmless little tattoo club. Or something. And instead of working on their merit badge by working on a public hiking trail, they beat people up and get neck tattoos.

    Kids these days.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  211. 210. hey, they could go to Costa Rica, a much shorter distance, a beautiful country, same language, universal health care, and not an evil oppressive country like the US.

    MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/10/2014 @ 2:58 pm

    Yes, if they were trying to escape violence, one wonders, why not Costa Rica?

    Oh, that’s right; Costa Rica doesn’t have a cradle-to-grave welfare state anything remotely like ours.

    For instance, the health care may be “universal” in a sense, but it’s a mix of public and private. Elder care is a private, family responsibility, not a state responsibility. Nursing homes exist, but they’re all private and there’s nothing like Medicare that will pay for them.

    No, for the “full Monty” in welfare you’ve got to go to Los Estados Unidos de America.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  212. ES – Like I said, they’re into tattoos. Tattooing other people with their fists and feet and other objects and then getting a little body art.

    Is that wrong?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  213. daley,

    Who among us is against art ?

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  214. ES – If I get together with carlitos and JD again Karl has to be there to write about it. Karl is an absolute animal!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  215. Carlitos prefers Ed Schultz and the Pacifica Network

    Colonel Haiku (5de7c8) — 7/10/2014 @ 1:30 pm

    Pacifica airs 9/11 truthers and “the young turks.” I would never listen to that.

    carlitos (c24ed5) — 7/10/2014 @ 2:19 pm

    I guess that leaves Ed Schultz and his “Action Heroes”…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  216. Isn’t Ed Schultz from one of the Dakotas ?
    How does someone in the Dakotas end up going all Alinsky ?
    Good Lord, Laura Ingalls Wilder began writing in the 1930s about her prairie life because she wanted people who were demanding more government programs to learn what life was like growing up in the late 1800s without indoor plumbing, electricity, or government subsidies.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  217. he drinks like he’s from Fargo, ES.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  218. He also might be a descendant of…Harriet Oleson !
    He’s certainly nasty enough.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  219. it’s short for Marabunta Salvatrucha, the former is the fierce fire ant, they are among the most ruthless of gangs in Central America,

    narciso (24b824)

  220. Sammy, and others, here ya go for your reading:
    http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/infectious_diseases/mycobacteria/tuberculosis_tb.html

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  221. 230. This looks a lot better than some of the other things, and the statistics mesh with each other, too.

    There are a number of interesting points, like it can be transmitted because of singing, not just coughing. There are different strains. The effect of a BCG vacination on the results of a skin test wears off after a few years. The skin test is only a test of infection. Statistics on how persons might be infected from a single untreated case are all over the place, but it looks like it is not actually terribly contagious. After two weeks of treatment a person who was infectious is not longer infectious, based on what happens with close contacts. The danger in hospitals and clinics comes much more from undiagnosed people or people who have unidentified drug resistant cases. New cases are almost never infectious. Nor are latent cases, but only cases of serious disease are.

    Particles can stay suspended in the air for several hours, but once they settle, they can’t be resuspended in a way that carries much risk of infection because the particles that do get shaken back up into the air are too big to get deep into the lungs.

    New cases are often unsymptomatic. Almost one third of the world’s population was infected at one time, but less than 1% of those ever infected have active cases at any given time. A lot of that obviously due to medical treatment. People with HIV have much more to worry about. TB rates wewnt up from 1985 to 1992 in the USA but then went back down. Theers agrowing problem of multiple drug resistant TB.

    Infected persons have a 5% to 10% lifetime chance of developing active disease from a latent infection, although this varies a lot by age and other risk factors. Most of that is in the first two years, but it is not, like one source I quoted said earlier, that nearly 100% of those that develop it develop it in the first two years, but some 50% to 80% of them. Some of the cases that develop much later are really reinfection (like I said) and you can tell because the rate is higher where TB is prevalent, but it is difficult to determine in any given patient what it was.

    In some Latin American countries you have a different kind of tuberculosis. Bovine, from cows, often acquired by drinking unpasteurized milk. Regular tuberculosis can also be transmitted in a few unusual ways, like by irrigating an infected wound, or in an autopsy room or in a laboratory..

    Much much more.

    And yet this whole thing never once mentioned ultraviolet light! Nor the stupid medical protocols in India where they don’t take account of possible drug resistance easily.

    And it turns out indeed, like I thought, an infection that revives years later is from a latent infection that wasn’t so latent. Lymph nodes are involved in an early stage.

    Sammy Finkelman (cd2969)

  222. “Statistics on how persons might be infected from a single untreated case are all over the place, but it looks like it is not actually terribly contagious.”

    Sammy – Is that why so many people around the world carry the infection? Did you ignore the sentence in the second paragraph under Etiology:

    People with pulmonary cavitary lesions are especially infectious because of the high number of bacteria contained within a lesion.

    or the third paragraph,

    How contagious patients with untreated active pulmonary TB are varies widely……..Thus, estimates of contagiousness vary widely; some studies suggest that only 1 in 3 patients with untreated pulmonary TB infect any close contacts; the WHO estimates that each untreated patient may infect 10 to 15 people per year. However, most of those who are infected do not develop active disease. Contagiousness decreases rapidly once effective treatment begins; organisms are less infectious even if they persist in sputum, and cough decreases. Studies of household contacts indicate that transmissibility ends within 2 wk of patients starting effective treatment.

    Is there some disease you are mentally comparing the planet’s number 2 disease killer’s infectiousness against which you have not shared in reaching your conclusion or it a complete azzpull?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  223. And yet this whole thing never once mentioned ultraviolet light! Nor the stupid medical protocols in India where they don’t take account of possible drug resistance easily.
    Sammy, if you want a comprehensive discussion of every aspect of TB, you will need to find a textbook on it and access to a medical library to look up journal articles.

    And it turns out indeed, like I thought, an infection that revives years later is from a latent infection that wasn’t so latent.
    Sammy, please give it up. That’s what I tried to tell you long ago. A positive skin test, which shows a cell-mediated immunity reaction, is evidence of the person having been infected with the TB organism. Most of the time the infection does not turn into active TB, but with current technology it is impossible to determine who with “latent” infection has TB organisms still alive and under suppression/control, and who has actually completely cleared the infection.
    The only way to tell for sure would be to grind a person up, completely, and then do a combination of culture and DNA probes looking for evidence.
    If negative, you killed a person for no reason, if positive, the patient is already dead and you don’t have to treat.

    Here ya go:
    a very nice schematic
    http://www.jimmunol.org/content/185/1/15/F1.expansion.html
    the entire article
    http://www.jimmunol.org/content/185/1/15.full
    transmission in an ER in Peru
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20819256

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  224. Sammy-
    One senior physician I trained under said, “It doesn’t matter if something happens 1% of the time, if it happens to you, it’s 100%”.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  225. You know, when I signed off mid-afternoon and ran some errands and then went out to a nice dinner and then went to hear beautiful musics I had high hopes that we would not still be talking about TB when I checked in later.

    elissa (886016)

  226. “Sammy, please give it up.”

    MD in Philly – I have no comprehension of Sammy’s understanding of what constitutes a very infectious disease. Clearly Merck, the CDC and WHO are using different definitions than Dr. Finkelman and simple logic would inform people that a disease which has infected such a large portion of the world’s population whether in active or inactive form might be considered very contagious, otherwise it would it would not have spread to such a degree. Unlike Dr. Finkelman, I do not hold myself out as a medical expert, I can only draw common sense conclusions from my own experience and what I read.

    Ten years ago an Indian radiologist in a hospital where I was getting a chest X-Ray threatened to have me physically detained if I attempted to leave the hospital before he spoke to my internist and also got a second opinion on my X-Ray. He made me sit for several hours alone in a small waiting room. I later learned the bozo was worried that I had TB and did not want me to infect anyone. If I had known Sammy then, I would have passed along Sammy’s wisdom to the radiologist.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  227. elissa – Facts do not deter Sammy.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  228. Not just talk in’ we be singin’ ’bout it… http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdaNz5APlh4

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  229. Van the Man sings the blues! T.B. Sheets was mentioned in a comment to Sammeh way earlier (I think it might have been daleyrocks) but Sammy did not pick up on it.

    elissa (886016)

  230. I was the guilty party. I’ve always loved that performance and song.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  231. Oh, Sorry, Haiku. (I was too lazy to go back and check who said it.) Yes it’s an amazing piece by an amazing musician.

    elissa (886016)

  232. Prager is enjoyable, but his arguments are hollow and riddled with logical fallacies.
    carlitos (c24ed5) — 7/10/2014 @ 12:54 pm

    Such as? I rarely hear Prager say anything that doesn’t pretty much square with the concept that 2 plus 2 equals four. His commentary is like a test chamber where one can gauge and assess people’s level of common sense. The more a person disagrees with him, the greater is his or her left-leaning (and generally nonsensical) biases.

    Mark (dacbae)

  233. MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/10/2014 @ 8:15 pm

    Now you know why I wished you good luck @122

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  234. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/10/2014 @ 9:08 pm

    Ten years ago an Indian radiologist in a hospital where I was getting a chest X-Ray threatened to have me physically detained if I attempted to leave the hospital before he spoke to my internist and also got a second opinion on my X-Ray. He made me sit for several hours alone in a small waiting room. I later learned the bozo was worried that I had TB and did not want me to infect anyone. If I had known Sammy then, I would have passed along Sammy’s wisdom to the radiologist.

    He was a bozo, right?

    Nobody would ever do anything until a diagnoses was confirmed and that usually takes weeks or months, although if someone is willing to spend the money, and were prepared, they could do it in 2 hours.

    If you’re not coughing and not throwing off sputum, you’re shouldn’t be infectious. The worst it could be would be an old infection, although sometimes some of them are not completely dead.

    He may have wanted to hold you there so that you don’t run away and avoid medical treatment, (and it’s especially bad if someone started it, felt better, and then stopped it before every last bacterium was 150% surely wiped out, by not taking the medicines for 3 or 4 times or whatever the length of time really needed, because that leads to the creation of drug resistant tuberculosis.)

    Standard treatment now, I think, is to give someone several different anti-TB antibiotics at the same time, so that resistance can’t develop. The kind of treatment they often do in India leads to drug resistance.

    The next step, if the X-Ray looked suspicious enough, would be a skin test, and asking if there any problem with your immune system. After that, if there is evidence or strong suspicion you were once infected, the next step is to test the sputum. If you are not coughing up anything, stimulate it with a salt spray. Finally, if bacteria are found, a DNA test to settle the matter.

    They wouldn’t prescribe any medicine (I think) until they knew for sure, especially if you weren’t showing any symptoms.

    In a real emergency, they could do a DNA test in 2 hours. The whole process of diagnosis normally takes one to two weeks, or maybe it could take even 3 months..

    That’s from MDs reference. I am not a doctor. I just read.

    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3)

  235. It takes a while actually for serious disease to develop. In 90% of the people infected, nothing noticeable ever happens. 95% of the primary infections are asymptomatic and followed by a latent or dormant phase, during or after which something can show up on an X-ray. The X-ray can show signs of damage from an infection. Md says you don’t know if it has been cleared.

    The way they determine what to do is they check the sputum and see if they can get any DNA results to confirm it. If negative, that means, even if it hasn’t been cleared, it is not problem right then.

    I have no comprehension of Sammy’s understanding of what constitutes a very infectious disease.

    From MDs link:

    http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/infectious_diseases/mycobacteria/tuberculosis_tb.html
    Infection is usually not transmissible in the primary stage and is never contagious in the latent stage. The ratio of active (and probably fairly obvious) cases to the total number who will test positive in the world is 15 million to 2.33 billion or approxomately 1:150.

    Only one in 150 cases of people who would test positive is infectious (this is assuming it was random, which it never is, of course. But the infectious cases should give off fairly obvious signs – of something – almost all the time.)

    If the only sign of TB is a test, it is not something very, or at all, contagious.

    On the other hand, you may need very little TB to get infected. Except that a very low dose is probably equivalent to a vaccination. They used to do that on purpose with smallpox in the 1700s, before Jenner, although some people got sick and died.

    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3)

  236. The quote from

    http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/infectious_diseases/mycobacteria/tuberculosis_tb.html

    was:

    Infection is usually not transmissible in the primary stage and is never contagious in the latent stage.

    All the rest is my wording.

    I pointed out that only 1 out of every 150 cases in th world is at the active stage. That’s with medical treatment, which reduces the number of active cases.

    Only 1 in 10 or so cases of infection ever become active.

    There is no treatment of latent cases to stop it from becoming active, just attempts to prevent active cases from infecting people. Two weeks of modern day treatment are enough to make an active case non-contagious in most healthy people, but not enough to clear the infection from the body.

    And what they worry about then is creating a drug resistant form of tuberculosis, and so what they do is continue the treatment not only until the TB bacteria is surely dead, but it’s really, really, really, really, truly, most sincerely dead.

    A lot of people don’t want to take the antibiotics that long, so they have directly observed treatment, in which a nurse watches someone swallow the pills every time.

    The rest have become immune.

    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3)

  237. I mant to say:

    Only 1 in 10 or so cases of infection ever become active. The rest have become immune.

    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3)

  238. SF, you fuckwit chastised me the other day for suggesting that Illegals were boarding planes sans ID.
    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/07/11/Exclusive-TSA-Allowing-Illegals-to-Fly-Without-Verifiable-ID-Says-Border-Patrol-Union

    Gazzer (192e59)

  239. Sammy – I really have no idea what point you believe you have supported above. You first asserted that tuberculosis was not very infectious two nights ago in advance of MD posting any links. It is a blinding statement of the obvious to state that an non-infectious infection is not very infectious. What you continue to ignore is how all those people became infected and how many people can become infected before active tuberculosis cases are isolated and treated.

    According to the CDC, Merck and W.H.O. tuberculosis is a very infectious disease. For some reason you only focus on the infection, which is fine, ignoring how such a large number of people became infected and the potential harm from admitting infected people into the U.S. who later develop the disease.

    There is a reason the CDC puts tuberculosis on its list of diseases which bars entry of refugees and immigrants into the U.S.( http://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/exams/medical-examination.html ) absent a waiver and I don’t believe it is because they think it is not very infectious. They CDC also mandates reporting of each new case of tuberculosis found in the U.S. so they can track it, probably also not because they find it not very contagious. I have also pointed out treatment protocols suggest health care workers wear respirators when treating tuberculosis patients and that they have the patients wear face masks. Again, probably because they do not view the disease as very contagious. They also recommend conducting contact interviews with tuberculosis patients to finds out who they have been in contact with recently. They probably do that to send discount coupons or something, not because they view tuberculosis as very infectious.

    So when you say tuberculosis is not very infectious I scratch my head because it seems like you keep missing the elephant in the room. Here is a disease that somehow manages to infect a huge number of people around the world but you call it not very infectious. It is amazing to me.

    Yes, there is a non-infectious stage when people carry the bacteria as a non-communicable infection. I think we’ve beaten that to death. What health professionals and the public are concerned about are the percentage of those infected cases that blossom into the full blown disease or people with the very infectious disease who remain untreated.

    I’m glad you remain unconcerned, but after spending time on the websites of the CDC and W.H.O. over the past couple of days I am not.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  240. tuberculosis is a disease people can be proud to have because it’s a disease what represents the hopes and DREAMS of thousands and thousands of young immigrants

    and America was built by immigrants don’t you know

    This is why of all diseases, tuberculosis is by far the most quintessentially american, and restoring tuberculosis to its former prominence is one of the most outstanding achievements of Barack Obama

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  241. Mr. Feets – Western melanin deficient scientific and medical theory is just another way to oppress people of color.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  242. 248. daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 7/11/2014 @ 11:36 am

    Sammy – I really have no idea what point you believe you have supported above. You first asserted that tuberculosis was not very infectious two nights ago in advance of MD posting any links. It is a blinding statement of the obvious to state that an non-infectious infection is not very infectious.

    But that’s the overwhelming majority of those people who “have tuberculosis.”

    What you continue to ignore is how all those people became infected and how many people can become infected before active tuberculosis cases are isolated and treated.

    That’s where the statistics are all over the place.

    But it would seem to be, it is not very infectious, but people with an actove case are infectiopus for a very long time.

    In years past, before antibiotics, there was no way to cure tuberculosis. they were not away like lepers, but only sent away if their condition got very bad. And usually family members did not come down with it – at least they didn’t get sick.

    The writer Sholom Aleichem had tuberculosis for years. Nopne of the members of his family came down with it. The poet

    According to the CDC, Merck and W.H.O. tuberculosis is a very infectious disease. For some reason you only focus on the infection, which is fine, ignoring how such a large number of people became infected and the potential harm from admitting infected people into the U.S. who later develop the disease.

    There is a reason the CDC puts tuberculosis on its list of diseases which bars entry of refugees and immigrants into the U.S.( http://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/exams/medical-examination.html ) absent a waiver and I don’t believe it is because they think it is not very infectious. They CDC also mandates reporting of each new case of tuberculosis found in the U.S. so they can track it, probably also not because they find it not very contagious. I have also pointed out treatment protocols suggest health care workers wear respirators when treating tuberculosis patients and that they have the patients wear face masks. Again, probably because they do not view the disease as very contagious. They also recommend conducting contact interviews with tuberculosis patients to finds out who they have been in contact with recently. They probably do that to send discount coupons or something, not because they view tuberculosis as very infectious.

    So when you say tuberculosis is not very infectious I scratch my head because it seems like you keep missing the elephant in the room. Here is a disease that somehow manages to infect a huge number of people around the world but you call it not very infectious. It is amazing to me.

    Yes, there is a non-infectious stage when people carry the bacteria as a non-communicable infection. I think we’ve beaten that to death. What health professionals and the public are concerned about are the percentage of those infected cases that blossom into the full blown disease or people with the very infectious disease who remain untreated.

    I’m glad you remain unconcerned, but after spending time on the websites of the CDC and W.H.O. over the past couple of days I am not.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  243. Illegal aliens, carrying the diseases Americans won’t carry.

    like TB, swine flu, scabies, and hand, foot and mouth.

    and America was built by immigrants don’t you know

    So true. But what’s the one thing immigrants have that we complacent gringos no longer have? Diseases!

    So, really, when you get right down to it, America was built by TB. And, lest we forget, swine flu, scabies, and hand, foot and mouth disease.

    I’m ashamed, mr. feets, that we in his country have gone soft and failed to do the hard work of keeping America number one in the world in infectious diseases. And that it took the little children of Central America to show us how to restore the US of A to its former greatness.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  244. I’m ashamed, mr. feets, that we in his country have gone soft and failed to do the hard work of keeping America number one in the world in infectious diseases. And that it took the little children of Central America to show us how to restore the US of A to its former greatness.

    You finally took Sammy to the level of seriousness he deserves. MD in Philly gave up, and so should you. After the part about the children being better off with the people who sent them off with smugglers, the subject jumped the shark.

    Hadoop (f7d5ba)

  245. # 251 was Accidentally sent.

    I meant to continue that the poet John Keats had tuberculosis. Is he known to have infected anyone?

    Checking I see maybe he did, as two of his brothers had it too, or maybe he asnd another brother both got it from a third.

    TB seems to require special conditions and/or lots of time to give people disease. Maybe a couple of things have to work together. The right person in the right place. Other times, nobody seems to get it. It often requires darkness and confined spaces. It could be it requires lots of exposure to create a serious disease in somebody else. Perhaps sometiems the immune system gets weaker and it comes out.

    Let’s see – how did John Keats get it?

    http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/7/991.full

    The time sequence is crucial in this case, as it is in the elucidation of any difficult infection

    I suppose difficult here means “difficult to get.”

    Maybe from his brother – “while nursing his brother Tom in the close confines of his Hampstead room”

    Altogether 3 brothers got it. Maybe the opportunities to acquire infection were too commonplace.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  246. According to the CDC, Merck and W.H.O. tuberculosis is a very infectious disease. For some reason you only focus on the infection, which is fine, ignoring how such a large number of people became infected and the potential harm from admitting infected people into the U.S. who later develop the disease.

    There is a reason the CDC puts tuberculosis on its list of diseases which bars entry of refugees and immigrants into the U.S.( http://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/exams/medical-examination.html ) absent a waiver and I don’t believe it is because they think it is not very infectious.

    It is not “infected people” they exclude (before treatment)

    It is people with active disease.

    They do not exclude people who might later get active infectious disease (which is about 5% to 10% lifetime, about 50% to 80% of that 5% to 10% being in the first two years after exposure.)

    A point here is that active disease doesn’t have to be something very debilitating at the moment. People with active disease take years to get really disabled.

    Why are they as stringent as they are? They are trying to prevent the importation of drug resistant TB.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  247. The screening is a little irrational as it only takes place for immigrants, not visitors, nor for returning Americans, even those who have been away for a long time in places with a lot of TB.

    It could not actually be done for anyone entering the United States as it takes weeks to settle the matter, and even takes some time to do preliminarfy screening. If you did this for anyone crossing the border, you’d just stop all commerce, so it isn’t done. In the case of would-be immigrants s there is an opportunity there to do a lot of screening because these people will put up with it without abandoning their efforts..

    There could maybe be some logic in that differential screening. You might argue an immigrant is perhaps coming to a bad place, while a vistor probably will not stay in bad place, or that an immigrant would would not necessarily otherwise have any association with U.S. persons, but a visitor does. You could argue maybe this is true.

    But really the reason is because they can get away with it in one case and they can’t get away with it in the other. Not logic, or value.

    All screening or non-screening is a compromise.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  248. The CDC also mandates reporting of each new case of tuberculosis found in the U.S. so they can track it, probably also not because they find it not very contagious

    A “case” is not a positive Mantoux test result. It is something which is supposed to need treatment. These two different kinds of situations are being confounded by some people who are leaking to the media, claiming that other people are being put in danger..

    That’s one big problem here.

    I am pretty sure nobody is being let out of government supervision with a case of active TB, which is infectious, but not terribly, or they would never treat people as outpatients. Or I should say without a carefully worked out supervision of a treatment plan. Even with a plan, they would probably make sure the person cannot currently infect anyone before releasing someone out to the general public. Since it only takes two weeks of treatment to reach that stage, this is not a big hurdle.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  249. Teh cool room… Lawdy, the Fool’s room…

    Colonel Haiku (5de7c8)

  250. @Daleyrocks: You talked about people doctors and nurses wearing masks.

    I have also pointed out treatment protocols suggest health care workers wear respirators when treating tuberculosis patients and that they have the patients wear face masks. Again, probably because they do not view the disease as very contagious.

    That is only in the hospitalized cases and part of the reason is that the confined space of a
    hospital is exactly where you can spread this disease, and would normally be the worst place to put someone with TB..

    Most cases are not hospitalized, and the ones that are hospitalized are not hospitalized because they are more infectious.

    People are hospitalized when they are living in such a situation where they may infect others or there is a risk the treatment program may be broken off (or they need treatemnt in a hospital)

    And they in fact are not very contagious, or can become so very soon, but nevertheless these precautions are taken.

    The main indications for hospitalization are:

    Serious concomitant illness
    Need for diagnostic procedures
    Social issues (eg, homelessness)
    Need for respiratory isolation, as for people living in congregate settings where previously unexposed people would be regularly encountered (important primarily if effective treatment cannot be ensured)

    Initially, all hospitalized patients should be in respiratory isolation, ideally in a negative-pressure room with 6 to 12 air changes/h. Anyone entering the room should wear a respirator (not a surgical mask) that has been appropriately fitted and that meets National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health certification (N-95 or greater). Because risk of exposing other hospitalized patients is high, even though patients receiving effective treatment become noncontagious before sputum smears become negative, release from respiratory isolation usually requires 3 negative sputum smears over 2 days, including at least one early-morning negative specimen.

    They also recommend conducting contact interviews with tuberculosis patients to finds out who they have been in contact with recently. They probably do that to send discount coupons or something, not because they view tuberculosis as very infectious.

    They want to track people down and test. That does not make it very contagious.

    So when you say tuberculosis is not very infectious I scratch my head because it seems like you keep missing the elephant in the room. Here is a disease that somehow manages to infect a huge number of people around the world but you call it not very infectious. It is amazing to me.

    Untreated people can infect others, but it needs the right kind of conditions and a lot of time to do this.

    Yes, there is a non-infectious stage when people carry the bacteria as a non-communicable infection.

    In around 90% of the cases it never becomes communicable.

    I think we’ve beaten that to death. What health professionals and the public are concerned about are the percentage of those infected cases that blossom into the full blown disease or people with the very infectious disease who remain untreated.

    They are not worried about blossoming. Only about cases that have already blossomed.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  251. It’s only because of my white privilege that I thought I shouldn’t have TB.

    I am so ashamed of myself now.

    Steve57 (cd4182)

  252. It would have been better to think things over before writing so much. But that’s hard.

    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3)

  253. This could have been much condensed.

    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3)

  254. ==It would have been better to think things over before writing so much. But that’s hard==

    We know that, Sammy.

    elissa (886016)

  255. Sammy wrote,”It would have been better to think things over before writing so much. But that’s hard.”
    ———

    You just wrote the Freudian Slip of the week.
    Yes, Sammy, thinking things over is hard.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  256. Daleyrocks @248. or people with the very infectious disease who remain untreated.

    That they are concerned about, but they are concerned about them whereever they are in the world, and what they are really, really concerned about is people who are treated incompletely.

    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3)

  257. Let’s serenade MS-13, for a change of subject.

    Que bonitos tatuajes
    Debajo de los ojos
    Debajo de los ojos
    Que bonitos tatuajes

    Marabunda salerosa

    Quando chupas mi pene
    Quando chupas mi pene
    Tu eres mi hermosa.

    Ladies, do not use Google translate.

    nk (dbc370)

  258. Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 7/11/2014 @ 3:12 pm

    thinking things over is hard.

    Before writing.

    Instead I thought things over while I wrote. This creates a lot of verbiage.

    While if take time to review, and review, which is hard to do without printing things out, or goinmg really, really slow, you can limit yourself to where the conflict is.

    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3)

  259. One problem: how can TB be so uncontagious, as it manifestedly is * , and yet 1 in 3 people maybe in the world has at least been infected?

    Because a few people have longstanding cases, and can gradually infect a great many other people over an extended period of time if conditions are right.

    That would seem to mean poor air circulation, little or no direct sunlight (ultraviolet light kills TB germs) and people spending a lot of time in such conditions with them.

    * Hospitals are the perfect setting for the spread of TB: Poor air circulation, little direct sunlight, people staying a long time in confined conditions, and many many people there who are otherwise sick. and they don’t get good food either. Only people who are otherwise sick, who live in conditions where they might infect a lot of people, or who might abandon treatement in the middle are hospitalized. Because a hospital otherwise is just about the most hospitable place you could think of for the spread of an infection, and the people with the least resistance are there, and because some infections are multi-drug resistant, extreme precautions are taken there.

    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3)

  260. Sammy,

    Yes, thinking things over is hard…before writing, before dinner, before bedtime, before reading from a teleprompter.
    (I could easily turn this into a Dr. Seuss passage.)

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  261. “Instead I thought things over while I wrote. This creates a lot of verbiage.”

    Sammy, I find that I must point out to you that it’s okay not to verbalize or write every thought that runs throught your head.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  262. through

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  263. that admonishment
    coming from me to Sammy
    is pretty rich… no?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  264. It takes one to know one, Col! :)

    elissa (886016)

  265. another perfect setting for the spread of TB is in overcrowded illegal alien urchin concentration camps, such as those found in the United States

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  266. it’s petri dish city, feets

    elissa (886016)

  267. This has become so bad that my computer is refusing to cooperate. It has taken 20 minutes to do this post…

    Except that a very low dose is probably equivalent to a vaccination. They used to do that on purpose with smallpox in the 1700s, before Jenner, although some people got sick and died.
    Sammy Finkelman (069ee3) — 7/11/2014 @ 10:18 am

    Sammy, you persist in saying something that is wrong and displays you do not know what you are talking about.

    When I had people come in off the coughing and later found to have TB, I took it seriously, and the city of Philly took it seriously and sent someone to his house several times a week to make sure he took his meds, for months.

    If you want to say that chicken pox is very contagious and that TB is no where near as contagious, fine
    but you need to realize that in the US public health tracks down and monitors every person they know of who has TB until they finish their meds, so apparently the majority of the medical community thinks the risk of contagiousness is high enough.

    Even if all of these folks were 100% documented healthy, it is a crime against humanity to encourage children to make the trip across Mexico on their own,
    unless, of course, they are able to take of themselves among thugs, criminal, and rapists,
    which would mean they are not ideal candidates for citizens.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  268. #272, Col, You occasionally (??) bend the haiku format, but you generally limit each post. Alas, poor Sammy …

    Airplanes and airport terminals are also terrific petri dishes for TB …

    I still have my smallpox scar from my childhood, a long, long, time ago. This may be good news if we can hold ISIS to a stalemate along our borders. On the other hand, I’ve heard that the latest test of fitness amongst the barbarians (who seek modern weapons to optimize their slaughter) is the absence of such a scar. So failing to hold them at the border I must consider some other options. It wouldn’t surprise me if us geezers were the only ones left to man the trenches. But I must say I would decline the opportunity to defend any “blue” (meaning communist/progressive) state. Let them experience culling by the ball peen hammer based on the ability to read. This would be terrific introduction to modern history. One denied those who matriculate into our “university” system.

    HteWon is holding a solid majority in muslim neighborhoods. Now all he needs to do is get rid of the remaining 325 million citizens of the U. S. and he can play golf for the next forty years pretending to be the Supreme Being. Cannabis was the drug of choice amongst asassins. So he will feel very comfortable with his keepers.

    bobathome (4c87a1)

  269. We won’t hear again from Sammy until sundown tomorrow, so everybody can take a break.

    So, MD, I go to see my doctor. He says, “Turn your head and cough”. I do. He says, “Cough again”. I do. He says, “One more time”. I cough one more time. He says, “How long have you had this cough?”

    nk (dbc370)

  270. LOL, nk, I didn’t see that coming.

    felipe (960c75)

  271. It wasn’t the cough that carried him off, it was the coffin they carried him off in.

    Gazzer (192e59)

  272. sunrise and sunset
    TB or not TB vaht
    are ve chopped livah?!?!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  273. TB King and Others

    An infectious tune

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4OXrmxDp44

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  274. The ads displayed on his website did generate clicks,
    and on one day the number of clicks surged to 169.
    Secondly, your Google Page Rank is obviously an indication of the number of
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    Kandis (6577d3)

  275. bobathome (4c87a1) — 7/11/2014 @ 5:02 pm

    I still have my smallpox scar from my childhood, a long, long, time ago. This may be good news if we can hold ISIS to a stalemate along our borders.

    If it gets that far, it’ll probably be muxh more dangerpus than you want.

    The DNA for smallpox I think has bene poublished. It’s probably possible now to reconstitute it andwill get easier with time – somebody did that with polio, only he made aminor change to prove he did it (turned out the minor change also made it less dangerous)

    ISIS is now advertising you don’t have to be a Moslem (or at least don’t have to have been a Moslem before) to join what used to be called ISIS.

    You can be an anarchist for instance.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/world/middleeast/isis-uses-andre-poulin-a-canadian-convert-to-islam-in-recruitment-video.html?_r=0

    Sammy Finkelman (c33275)

  276. On the other hand, I’ve heard that the latest test of fitness amongst the barbarians (who seek modern weapons to optimize their slaughter) is the absence of such a scar.

    It might be a marker for age, or, more likely, for having no connection with the U.S. military.

    I wouldn’t think this would be a test of fitness – it would be a method of eliminaing informers. (the military still vaccinated, I think, deployable U.S. military forces for smallpox, in the mid-2000s decade at least, and public health care workers also get it.

    Sammy Finkelman (c33275)

  277. MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/11/2014 @ 4:52 pm

    When I had people come in off the [street?] coughing and later found to have TB,

    The key words here are coughing and later found to have TB

    This is not the same as positive test. It;s got to be active disease.

    Now note: They did not isolate them.

    Rather:

    I took it seriously, and the city of Philly took it seriously and sent someone to his house several times a week to make sure he took his meds, for months.

    Yes. I don’t know if such a person was hospitalized fro the first two weeks. But they wanteds him to take his meds, not because it was extremely contagious, or even moderately contagious, or because there was a high probability of someone getting a serious disease, but to prevent the emergence of drug-resistant TB.

    They wanted it eliminated from his body completely

    If you want to say that chicken pox is very contagious and that TB is no where near as contagious, fine

    That’s what it is.

    but you need to realize that in the US public health tracks down and monitors every person they know of who has TB until they finish their meds, so apparently the majority of the medical community thinks the risk of contagiousness is high enough.

    More that the disease is serious, if caught by somebody else, and even more that if treatment is started and then stopped, you could get drug resistant TB, and the last thing they want to see is that.

    Whether this theory is exactly right is another story. The drug resistance probably does not spontaneously appear. It’s either prevalent or not. But maybe it can be acquired from other bacterium, even a distantly related one, through conjugation.

    Sammy Finkelman (c33275)


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