Patterico's Pontifications

10/29/2013

The Amazing Disappearing NBC Paragraph About Obama’s Health Care Lie — And Why Obama’s Lie Is So Infuriating

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 5:40 am

Commenters last night noticed that the blockbuster NBC story — showing Obama knew years ago that not everyone would be able to “keep” their plan as promised — had disappeared. It has now resurfaced at the same URL, but for a while, a key paragraph was missing:


That is the paragraph that showed that HHS was going out of its way to make it difficult for policies to be grandfathered. The paragraph seems to be restored now, but let’s quote that passage in normal readable font in case it mysteriously disappears again.

None of this should come as a shock to the Obama administration. The law states that policies in effect as of March 23, 2010 will be “grandfathered,” meaning consumers can keep those policies even though they don’t meet requirements of the new health care law. But the Department of Health and Human Services then wrote regulations that narrowed that provision, by saying that if any part of a policy was significantly changed since that date — the deductible, co-pay, or benefits, for example — the policy would not be grandfathered.

As Morgen Richmond points out, this is actually something the administration boasted about years ago:

Q: How will the regulation help me keep my coverage if I don’t want to choose a new private plan?

A: The regulation lets health plans that existed on March 23, 2010, when the Affordable Care Act became a law, to be “grandfathered” and thus be exempt from some of the new law’s provisions. But the rule sets firm limits on how much your current coverage can be changed before it loses its grandfathered status. Compared to their policies in effect on March 23, 2010, grandfathered plans:

*Cannot significantly cut or reduce benefits – for example, if your plan covers care for people with diseases such as diabetes, cystic fibrosis or HIV/AIDS, the plan cannot eliminate coverage for those diseases;

*Cannot raise co-insurance charges – for example, it increases your share of a hospital bill from 20% to 25%;

*Cannot significantly raise co-payment charges – for example, it raises its copayment from $30 to $50 over the next 2 years;

*Cannot significantly raise deductibles – for example, it raises a $1,000 deductible by $500 over the next 2 years;

*Cannot significantly lower employer contributions by more than 5 percent – for example, it increases its workers’ share of the premium from 15% to 25%;

*Cannot add or tighten an annual limit on what the insurer pays. Some insurers cap the amount that they will pay for covered services each year. If they want to retain their status as grandfathered plans, plans cannot tighten any annual dollar limit in place as of March 23, 2010. Moreover, plans that do not have an annual dollar limit cannot add a new one unless they are replacing a lifetime dollar limit with an annual dollar limit that is at least as high as the lifetime limit (which is more protective of high-cost enrollees).

It sounds wonderful, doesn’t it — except that refusing to grandfather anything that changes even slightly means you don’t actually get to keep your plan, as promised, because premiums go up, other things change, and any little change means you get kicked into the new whatever-Democrats-like plans where seniors are paying for childbirth coverage.

What is actually happening — and it was known this would happen — is that plans are disappearing because they do not comply with the new regulations. In some cases, they are being replaced by new and more expensive plans; we have seen numerous stories about this in recent days, and commenter Kevin M. provides the letter his wife received placing the blame for the cancellation of their less expensive policy squarely on ObamaCare:

Screen Shot 2013-10-29 at 5.25.33 AM

It’s OK, though: Kevin’s wife can purchase a new and more expensive plan.

Some others aren’t so lucky. Some other private plans are being cancelled outright. It’s OK — the people affected can simply go to the exchanges!

You know: the exchanges that don’t work.

So if you’re on a private plan and you are receiving expensive treatment for, say, cancer, or some other life-threatening condition, your insurance company may simply cancel your plan on the theory that the exchanges can pick up the slack — and then, when the government’s incompetence in building a simple ^%&&^*& website is not fixed in time, your treatment will be disrupted.

The government’s hubris in taking over health care insurance, and failing to provide an alternative, may actually put people’s health at risk if they don’t get this thing fixed.

And we are powerless to do anything about it. It’s enough to make you want to scream and storm the barricades — but that won’t do any good. So you just sit and fume. Because that’s what you do when government takes over and screws it up. You can’t go to the competition. You can’t vote them out because the system is rigged. So you sit and fume.

This is the problem with lack of competition, folks. There are no alternatives. That’s why it’s incredibly dangerous and stupid to turn over such an important part of the economy to the government. And make no mistake: that’s what we have done. (And by “we” I mean other people.)

I will now go scream into a pillow. What else can I do?

329 Responses to “The Amazing Disappearing NBC Paragraph About Obama’s Health Care Lie — And Why Obama’s Lie Is So Infuriating”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. Hey, 10 million people here, 4 million people there, pretty soon we’re talking real people, eh, TaFailalot and the rest of you apologist ninnies?!?!

    Colonel Haiku (6b7e88)

  3. Do NOT bite that pillow!

    Colonel Haiku (89b580)

  4. On second thought, perhaps we should all be biting our pillows, given what this malevolently incompetent administration is doing to us.

    Colonel Haiku (e807c3)

  5. So, if I understand this right, Obama went back in time and killed my grandfather?

    Where does that leave me?

    Pious Agnostic (c45233)

  6. Well said. This is a frightening reality for many people.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  7. 52% of the people wanted this. This is not incompetence. It is by design. So people will beg the government to take over healthcare.

    My prediction is fewer people will have insurance as result of obamacare than before.

    Jim (72cbc5)

  8. just because Food Stamp knew he was lying doesn’t mean that he’s a bad person or even that he really actually knew maybe he was just “dimly aware”

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  9. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

    nk (dbc370)

  10. key word “dimly”, feets…

    Colonel Haiku (101cd9)

  11. So, if I understand this right, Obama went back in time and killed my grandfather?
    Where does that leave me?
    Comment by Pious Agnostic (c45233) — 10/29/2013 @ 6:21 am

    — You are Number 6; and they want information . . . INFORMATION!

    Icy (309bbc)

  12. Meanwhile, we have a bigger, more well-funded, more corrupt IRS to enforce the crappola coming out of Obama and his minions.

    Happy days are here again.

    Mark (58ea35)

  13. When the media is finished with this, it will be compared to George Washington cutting down a cherry tree.

    mg (31009b)

  14. It was a lie, but not a “knowing” lie as, despite all protestations to the contrary, the guy’s as dumb as a sack of TaFailalots…

    Colonel Haiku (399c43)

  15. I’ve renewed the plan I had in 2010 every year since then and every year it kept getting better and better, lower copays, more covered services, more flexibility. It was a good fit for me, I was happy with it and wanted to keep it.

    But, the version of the plan being offered this year is the same in name only. It’s provisions have so seriously been degraded that it’s utility has all but evaporated. Out-of-pocket costs are up, way up, previously covered services are either eliminated entirely or severely limited, and access to specialists is sharply curtailed.

    So, yes, I can keep my health care plan, but it’s not the same plan. If I want a plan with the same or similar provisions my costs are going to triple.

    ropelight (4d873a)

  16. Cypher-in-Chief…

    Colonel Haiku (a8bbc8)

  17. I’m sure the zipster just learned of this in a NYT article. I’m surprised the Finknado hasn’t linked some inane drivel from the fishwrap of record.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  18. Everyone I know who has an “individual” plan, including me, has been sent a cancellation notice. Mine is with Blue Cross, whose sibling companies across the nation seem to be cancelling at least 50% of their contracts. I managed to get through to Blue Cross eventually, and they advised me as to which plan would most resemble my current one. My premium will go up about 18%, my deductible will go down about 40%, my co-pays will go from zero to $30/$70 (primary/specialist), and they will kick one of my sons off the plan because they worry that he’s eligible for Medicaid, which is not certain. And completing the new contract is a major pain and paperwork hassle for both Blue Cross and my family.

    Bob Ellison (c67160)

  19. So now the media is sticking up for these insane criminals and editing out the truth??

    They issue a few half-hearted critical stories and jump back on the bandwagon. Shame on all of them.

    Patricia (be0117)

  20. FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It’s a penalty. – LIE!

    You can keep your policy. Period. – LIE!

    You can keep your doctor. Period. – LIE!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfl55GgHr5E

    http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/06/15/obama-if-you-like-your-doctor-you-can-keep-your-doctor/

    I also have a healthcare plan that will save the average family $2,500.00 in premiums. – LIE!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15E7goj7Fmo

    Resident Barack Hussein Obama – LIAR-IN-CHIEF!

    John Glover Roberts, Jr. – CHIEF TURNCOAT!

    Patrick Henry – Give me Liberty, or Give me Death!

    John Glover Roberts. Jr. – Gave us ObamaCare – It’s a tax.

    What happened to the right to be left alone?

    Limited government?

    The Rule of Law?

    Actual Representation?

    That the People are sovereign?

    That government is our servant?

    Accountability?

    Gary L. Zerman (26ea94)

  21. In Formation, Icy. In Formation.

    Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

    luagha (c260ed)

  22. So, if your plan changes, you’re screwed — even if you still like it, changes and all.

    Icy (309bbc)

  23. Oh, this is rich! Carl Levin says that consumers are being “transitioned” into better plans.

    Icy (309bbc)

  24. Some employers will see the cost of coverage go down by 3000%. They will be able to give you a raise.

    Heh

    Math is hard President Ostrich.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  25. I think everyone misheard Obama when he allegedly said, “If you have an insurance plan you like, you will be able to keep it.”
    What he actually said was, “If you have an insurance plan THAT I LIKE, you will be able to keep it.”

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  26. Patterico

    I got a similar letter… probably the same letter from Blue Shield of CA

    The letter goes on to describe all of the new plans as including expanded coverage for “essential health benefits”. Blue Shield did the quotation marks, so I assume they are quietly telling the buyer that those “essential benefits” are from the feds.

    After telling me how much the closest comparable plan is going to ding me for (almost $800 mo) the bottom paragraph of my letter explains:
    This plan covers all the ACA-required essential health benefits, such as…

    The very last sentence tells me I am covered for pediatric dental and vision care services.

    So as a 56 year old guy, my coverage has been expanded to include benefits that the feds have decided are essential to me: maternity care and pediatric dental and vision.

    My take on this type of oddness is that they wanted to hide the true costs of subsidized care a little more. Sure there are various fees and taxes right out front in Obamacare, but they sneakily get me to subsidize others things by making me pay for some things I cannot ever use

    steveg (794291)

  27. Somebody has to pay for Obama’s children, steveg.

    nk (dbc370)

  28. “What he actually said was, “If you have an insurance plan THAT I LIKE, you will be able to keep it.””

    ES – Are you sure it wasn’t “If you have get an insurance plan THAT I LIKE, you will be able forced to keep it.””

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  29. daley, I stand corrected, pal !

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  30. May have a an extra quote tag in the second line there on the end.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  31. should have read:
    “sneakily get me to subsidize others by making me pay for some things I cannot ever use”

    steveg (794291)

  32. I hope somebody creates a new Unaffordable 404Care tracking metric like we had for the Stimulus Bill – Insurance Policies Canceled or Transitioned.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  33. steveg,

    The really sad thing about this? Folks like us (my wife and I are about your age) are getting a good deal compared to what 20-somethings are getting. Sixty-four year olds can be charged no more, plan for plan, than 3 times what 20 year olds can be charged. Currently the difference is 5-1 and since older people invariably have some preexisting condition, it’s even a better deal than that.

    And OUR rates are going up.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  34. When this was being debated, one main objection was that nobody wanted “Post Office-style” health care.

    Who knew that would be such a high bar?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  35. George W. Bush was the 43rd President of the United States.
    And Obama is the 404th President of the United States.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  36. Anyone notice how easy ACA morphs into 404 in some fonts?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  37. Our esteemed host wrote:

    This is the problem with lack of competition, folks. There are no alternatives. That’s why it’s incredibly dangerous and stupid to turn over such an important part of the economy to the government. And make no mistake: that’s what we have done. (And by “we” I mean other people.)

    This demonstrates the problems when liberals try to argue economics. We were assured that the competition for the new people coming into the insurance market would lead to a lowering of prices. What the liberals — who are, by definition, economically illiterate, able only to parrot a few key phrases — didn’t take into account was the changed conditions.

    Competition helps to lower prices when there is a really free market. In a free market, a customer has the choice not to buy at all if the prices being charged by even the lowest price vendor is too high. To have a market, vendors must compete with the choice not to buy at all as well as with other vendors.

    Obaminablecare eliminated the option not to buy at all, and adds government subsidies to the pot, so that some people aren’t really worried about having to choose the lowest price plan. Of course prices are going to rise, which anyone who understood anything about economics could foresee.

    Any MBA can tell you that, normally, price is a greater contributor to profit than volume. Therefore, in an environment in which the option not to buy at all has been eliminated, the incentive to lower prices is greatly reduced; everyone’s sales should be increased.

    The economist Dana (3e4784)

  38. Just like Obama decided to make health care insurance reform part of his campaign without any consideration, he seems to have had no consideration whatsoever for what would actually happen once the legislation was passed.

    Because he is fundamentally incompetent.

    SPQR (768505)

  39. “Obaminablecare eliminated the option not to buy at all”

    The economist Dana – That option is still very much there due to the very low fines in the early years and I’ll bet you dollars to donuts insurers factored it into their pricing. The check on their pricing is the minimum loss ratios the law imposes on them, requiring them to spend 80 or 85 cents of every premium dollar they take in on actual claim costs, forget overhead, policy acquisition costs, debt service, dividends, etc., or rebate it to policyholders.

    I agree with you though, it is by no means a free market. There are costs to opting out which will grow over time.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  40. Dana,

    The way the subsidies work, there are strong incentives for some to pick HIGHER priced plans. Self-employed older people trying to get under the subsidy cut-off, for example.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  41. Just like Obama decided to make health care insurance reform part of his campaign without any consideration, he seems to have had no consideration whatsoever for what would actually happen once the legislation was passed.

    He actually didn’t care what the legislation was, either. He sent nothing to the Hill and let Pelosi and Reid run wild. When Scott Brown was elected they passed the Senate plan, which everyone wanted to change (at least to remove posturing like exchanges for Congressmen), because that’s all they could do. Whatever it was. And Obama signed it. Could have had kiddie porn in it for all they knew.

    Hard to blame them for not looking at the consequences when they didn’t look at the legislation itself.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  42. That option is still very much there due to the very low fines in the early years

    1% of income isn’t that small for many. Certainly more than the $95 minimum. Although maybe not that bad for young folks who should opt out.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  43. I’m sure glad Boehner and Co. came to their senses and handed us the baton to carry the fight to the Dhimmis.

    I’ll admit it, doing my part is always an annoyance but its time to stand and take government help like a man.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  44. But steveg, what if you decide to have gender reassignment surgery and then get pregnant? You’re covered! The govt is looking out for you.

    BTW the word competition as used by Sebelius enrages me. How can insurers compete when every plan is exactly the same, as dictated by Obama?

    Patricia (be0117)

  45. . It’s enough to make you want to scream and storm the barricades — but that won’t do any good.

    No, it would. If enough people screamed and stormed the barricades, the damned bastards would get scared of the people like they should have been all along. And they’d repeal the thing utterly, if that was what the people were demanding, as well they should be.

    Smock Puppet, Gadfy, Racist-Sexist Thug, and Bon Vivant All In One Package (fc9290)

  46. So far the discussion has been about what it will cost to get obamaCare. Cost is important, but the real problems will only become evident when this marvelous “service” begins dispensing its “care”. Our drooling obamaCare supporters will find it more than a little difficult to wait three months with failing arteries before they are allowed into the huge, factory-like building with colored lines painted on the floor, the pink one leading to the open-heart surgery bay manned by Doctors who don’t speak English. With any luck, these patients will have had a birthday during the wait period, and they will find that aspirin is the defined treatment for their age group just before they are flopped onto the operating table. This will spare them death by dehydration, which is the method endorsed by UK progressives for euthanasia of the elderly, the infirm, or those with otherwise undesirable characteristics, say eyeglasses or an American flag lapel pin. And for all those nurses and doctors employed by these facilities, especially those who supported Hte ONe, don’t forget to attend your daily union struggle session. There will still be many class enemies to identify and indoctrinate, and it is important that you maintain your alertness.

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  47. “1% of income isn’t that small for many.”

    Kevin M. – When you weigh it against the required premium and/or deductible and the likelihood of receiving any cash back from an insurance plan I submit the decision making becomes somewhat more complex.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  48. maybe food stamp knew about this but he just forgot cause of he got busy on other stuffs and he really didn’t mean for millions of people to lose their health care

    it just wasn’t top-of-mind

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  49. “But steveg, what if you decide to have gender reassignment surgery and then get pregnant? You’re covered! The govt is looking out for you.”

    Patricia – I want to know about boner pills, I mean if I ever need them. I live in a building with a lot of young ladies and they have needs, if you know what I mean. I try to help out in whatever ways I can because ima giver. I’ve gone without health insurance the past four years but now I’m thinking to myself, self what about those Bob Dole pills. I might be able to help out more of the wimmins around the building with their needs but then I look at those deductibles and I get confuzzled.

    I think I need a navigator or something.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  50. Then there is this: even if you get onto one of the exchange plans, the doctors your current plan covers may not be participating.

    The NY Post has this on doctors going Galt:

    Only 23 percent of the 409 physicians queried said they’re taking patients who signed up through health exchanges.

    “This is so poorly designed that a lot of doctors are afraid to participate,” said Dr. Sam Unterricht, president of the 29,000-member organization. “There’s a lot of resistance. Doctors don’t know what they’re going to get paid.”

    Three out of four doctors who are participating in the program said they “had to participate” because of existing contractual obligations with an insurer or medical provider, not because they wanted to.

    Only one in four “affirmatively” chose to sign up for the exchanges.

    Nearly eight in 10 — 77 percent — said they had not been given a fee schedule to show much they’ll get paid if they sign up.

    “This is a joke. We are flying blind,” said one doctor.

    Aren’t we all?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  51. I just discovered something in the NBC News stylebook;

    If you don’t like the paragraph that exposes The One as The Liar, you don’t have to keep it !

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  52. While thinking about the sort of indoctrination that we might expect in our new obamaCare medical facilities, it occurred to me that we already know that progressive indoctrination in our academic institutions leaves 80% brain dead, suitable only for employment by government agencies. Let’s hope that Daley’s Bob Dole pills will mask the discomfort as obamaCare patients discover that their remaining bodily organs have been rendered or perhaps transplanted if still usable.

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  53. bobathome – Boners are important.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  54. There’s one in the White House—his name is Barack Obama.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  55. Drill baby drill!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  56. Daley, I think if obamaCare was going to provide Bob Dole pills there would have been more than a few of the senior Republican leadership who would have enthusiastically supported it. A quid pro quo, shall we say. Especially if the pills were delivered in plain brown wrappers. Absent that show of support initially, and the current desire by the Republican leadership to be excluded from the plan, I suspect that these pills are not covered even in the most generous version. Aren’t they covered by the EBT card?

    bobathome (c0c2b5)

  57. I just want to thank John Cornyn for voting for cloture and thus his vote for Obamacare. Great going, buddy!

    Dustin (303dca)

  58. Speaking of Boehners, sometime this winter the Republicans are going to have a golden opportunity to “amend” Obamacare, and so long as they offer something substantive (not just repeal) it will have a chance of passage. Obama will be desperate by then to save his legacy and he won’t care too much about the details.

    The Republican plan should be one that returns to the current system but has guaranteed-issue and after, say, 5 years of insurance, community rating across all offered plans.

    There would be no mandate tax.

    The Medicaid expansion should probably stay as should a subsidy plan for the working poor, and Medicaid money should be available as a subsidy voucher for those that prefer.

    All workers would be able to put some amoung of their pay into tax-exempt medical savings accounts.

    National insurance plans would become legal and compete with state-regulated plans.

    Catastrophic coverage would be available to those who have one year’s OOP in a medical savings account.

    Stuff like that.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  59. Kevin M., I know that Obama had almost no input into the content of the legislation.

    That’s why I enjoy calling it Obamacare. It personifies his entire lack of leadership, lack of substance, arrogance and incompetence.

    SPQR (2939bb)

  60. *after, say, 5 years of insurance with any set of companies, community rating

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  61. That’s why I enjoy calling it Obamacare

    How long before Obama tries to call it Pelosicare, claiming he never knew what was in the plan and had to sign it to find out?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  62. I will now go scream into a pillow. What else can I do?

    Well you could read things that show that all this demagoguing people being thrown off of insurance isn’t actually, you know, true:

    http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2013/oct/25/marco-rubio/marco-rubio-said-florida-300000-people-are-going-l/

    Wait, the right has been vastly exaggerating the problems for partisan gain? No way!

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  63. Are you folks still arguing with this clear troll? I mean, y’all have shown he/she doesn’t even read the links he/she posts. So it’s all about trying to Speak Twoof to Powder. And you will never, ever get that time back.

    Just remember this character is having the tooth grinding personal knowledge that he/she was snookered, twice, by the Chicago pols who line their own pockets and count—count—on alphabetist like he/she to support them. No matter what.

    Goosestepping trolls are boring. But they do think that they are witty.

    They are half-right.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  64. (side issue-
    I was discussing with someone JD or SPQR or someone last night the Benghazi 60 minutes story and I suggested that by the next day it would be gone from memeorandum. Looking just now I do still see on post on memeorandum about it- a liberal rebuttal:
    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/10/sigh-benghazi-again
    So, you know, I’m going to chalk that up as a correct prediction on my part.

    Back to your regularly scheduled hyperventilating.)

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  65. Tlaloc-

    25 million people in the US have individual policies. Given the cramped way HHS has interpreted the grandfather clauses, the majority of those people will have to find new plans. Further, some plans that would be grandfathered won’t be as insurers leave states (e.g. Aetna in the California individual market).

    Florida as about 6.5% of the US population. Assume that half of 25 million are having to find new policies and you get almost 800,000 Floridians needing new policies.

    So, not only is he not exaggerating, he seems to be underestimating the problem. Perhaps a higher number of Medicare folks brings it down, but 300,000 is not unreasonable.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  66. Just remember this character is having the tooth grinding personal knowledge that he/she was snookered, twice, by the Chicago pols who line their own pockets and count—count—on alphabetist like he/she to support them. No matter what.

    Typically binary. If I disagree with your attacks on obama then I must be an obama supporter.

    I suppose you find it simple living in a world of only black and white. There is a certain richness to reality once you stop forcing everything and everyone into dialectics though.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  67. 25 million people in the US have individual policies. Given the cramped way HHS has interpreted the grandfather clauses, the majority of those people will have to find new plans. Further, some plans that would be grandfathered won’t be as insurers leave states (e.g. Aetna in the California individual market).

    Let’s explore this a bit-
    so if you had a plan you could keep it. If the insurance company voluntarily chose to change the plan you may not be able to keep it.

    Gosh that sounds exactly like what VJ said, huh?

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  68. 62. Oh, gimp, these are just those who were insuring themselves. As many as 14 million will lose their policy and be forced into alternatives.

    When the waiver on the employer mandate lapses a total of 117 million full-time jobs will be in play for Healthcare pink slips.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  69. So, not only is he not exaggerating, he seems to be underestimating the problem. Perhaps a higher number of Medicare folks brings it down, but 300,000 is not unreasonable.

    Except for the part where politifact examined the actual events rather than doing a back of the envelope calculation and found his statement was, how did they put it? Oh yes “mostly false.”

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  70. oh f*ck off troll. “Voluntarily” as in the sense of choosing to stay in business. As in giving your wallet to the mugger “voluntarily” rather than having your head blown off?

    Why is this assclown still here?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  71. Tlaloc, you’ve filled your pants with faeces often enough here. Your obsession with returning and defecating upon yourself in public repeatedly shows a serious pathology.

    Go spread your lies somewhere else, somewhere where they welcome the despicable vile creatures like yourself.

    SPQR (2939bb)

  72. 67. 404care mandates a level of coverage. That level includes for the vast majority services they would never need and had no incentive to purchase.

    Those changes are involuntary.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  73. And I don’t much care what lies Politifact PRAVDA publishes.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  74. There should be a system on the internet where noses can be punched remotely. The lack of that ability gives the clowns leeway they would never have face to face.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  75. Right now, I’m doing the math on just abandoning health care insurance entirely and paying the “penalty/tax” instead. Being self-employed, I can control my taxable income pretty easily. And we’ve already partially gone to cash doctors in my household anyway for other reasons.

    SPQR (2939bb)

  76. 67. …Let’s explore this a bit-
    so if you had a plan you could keep it. If the insurance company voluntarily chose to change the plan you may not be able to keep it.

    Gosh that sounds exactly like what VJ said, huh?

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:03 pm

    Yes, let’s explore this a bit. Who wrote the rule about when you could keep your plan?

    Oh, that’s right. The fascisti in this Obmanation.

    For the first time in US history, YOU could not decide anymore whether or not the insurance company modifying your plan to react to economic reality meant it was still your plan.

    Now it’s Kathleen Sebelius.

    Up next, Flailoc defends the idea that if you like your religious order you can keep your religious order.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/09/25/little-sisters-of-the-poor-file-lawsuit-to-stop-hhs-from-forcing-them-to-fund-contraception-coverage/

    Because of course if the insurance company voluntarily decides to comply with Obama’s mandates, it’s not Obama’s fault if the Little Sisters of the Poor cease to exist.

    Right, Flailoc?

    And then if the Catholic church voluntarily ceases operations in the US rather than compromise its moral principles that’s not Obama’s fault either.

    I mean, Obama did give them a choice.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  77. SPQR,

    I’ve looked a that but the negotiated rate thing is a major obstacle. The list price for covered services in many places is several times the negotiated rate. Had an MRI recently. The list price was $3900. My cost? 20% of $1400. Routine blood tests are less than $10, rather than over $100. Etc.

    God help you if you go into a captive billing environment like a hospital.

    Just get the cheapest Bronze plan possible and treat it as a catastrophic plan that has some other benefits.

    Alternatively, since you are self-employed, the cost of whatever plan (before subsidy) comes off your AGI in calculating eligibility for a subsidy. One of the few ways to get income down on paper if you are anywhere near that $62K mark.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  78. “Well you could read things that show that all this demagoguing people being thrown off of insurance isn’t actually, you know”

    Tlaloc – Sorry pal, you’re erecting another one of your straw men. The claim at issue is whether people would be able to keep their existing insurance plans if they liked them and with respect to the individual insurance market the answer is a resounding NO.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  79. 71. Tlaloc, you’ve filled your pants with faeces often enough here. Your obsession with returning and defecating upon yourself in public repeatedly shows a serious pathology.

    Go spread your lies somewhere else, somewhere where they welcome the despicable vile creatures like yourself.

    Comment by SPQR (2939bb) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:06 pm

    But he’s so easily mocked. Even a caveman like me can do it.

    If you’ve ever been stationed overseas you know that a US bank gets a contract to serve US servicemembers on base. I think he used to write the signs for those banks.

    “It is voluntary to give your SSN. However if you don’t give your SSN you will not be served.”

    Or words to that effect. Even six year olds knew that meant it was mandatory.

    But not Flailoc. He doesn’t know the meaning of the word “voluntary.” He probably also doesn’t know the meaning of the words “yield to ramp.”

    You can interchange the term “under penalty of perjury” with this numbskulls usage of the word “voluntary” and not change anything else one damn bit.

    Too fun.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  80. For the first time in US history, YOU could not decide anymore whether or not the insurance company modifying your plan to react to economic reality meant it was still your plan.

    Yes because that’s so different than an insurance company simply deciding to discontinue coverage.

    First time in US history? Please. Could you guys hyperventilate any more?

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  81. News item from December 2013:

    “The last few months before the ACA takes effect have seen an overwhelming demand on doctors and specialists as patients attempt to schedule every possible test and/or procedure before the new law takes effect. The uncertainty in the exchange markets caused by the new delays in the federal website has clearly added to this.

    Further, insurance companies are noticing an abnormal number of their customers have maxed out their deductibles and out-of-pocket limits and fear this may lead to losses in the current quarter.”

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  82. Is this guy an idiot or what?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  83. Tlaloc – From the June 18, 2010 FAQ on the Obamacare website:

    Q: What effect will the new rule have on my health coverage?

    A: The new rule will allow you to keep your current coverage if you like it and still benefit from many of the new consumer protections in the Affordable Care Act, such as a ban on your insurance being terminated just because you get sick and had made an unintentional mistake on your forms.

    If your current plan significantly reduces your benefits or increases your out-of-pocket spending above what it was when the new law was enacted, then your plan will lose its “grandfather” status and you will gain additional new benefits under the Act. In the individual market, people change plans more frequently than those insured through employer plans. As such, most of the 17 million people who purchase in the individual market will likely gain all the new protections in the Affordable Care Act in the near term.

    To translate for low information voters such as yourself, that means the Administration was acknowledging most of the policies issued in the individual market would not be grandfathered. People who understand the subject can comprehend this concept and do not need to resort to sophomoric semantic games to justify the Administration’s continual lies to the public.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  84. Right, Flailoc?

    Wow! Yes! You did get one right. Nothing gives churches license to break the law. Churches are exempt from certain aspects of obamacare. Businesss, regardless of who runs them, are not. That is exactly how it should be.

    Congratulations, Steve! I knew you could get the hang of this eventually.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  85. 80. Yes because that’s so different than an insurance company simply deciding to discontinue coverage.

    First time in US history? Please. Could you guys hyperventilate any more?

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:26 pm

    Used to be, numbskull, that you could get the same coverage from another carrier. That was your choice.

    Not now, Ms. Sebelius.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  86. “The last few months before the ACA takes effect have seen an overwhelming demand on doctors and specialists as patients attempt to schedule every possible test and/or procedure before the new law takes effect. The uncertainty in the exchange markets caused by the new delays in the federal website has clearly added to this.

    Further, insurance companies are noticing an abnormal number of their customers have maxed out their deductibles and out-of-pocket limits and fear this may lead to losses in the current quarter.”

    Yes, people panic when you have a sizable group demagoguing an issue and predicting total societal collapse.

    The lesson you should take away is that it is irresponsible of you to play chicken little. Somehow I don’t think you will though.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  87. Kevin M., the trick is to ask for a cash price, not the list price. The “list price” is bogus, no one pays it.

    If they don’t have to bill your insurance at all, surprising number of doctors, labs, etc., will charge you amounts surprisingly close to the co pay amount.

    SPQR (2939bb)

  88. Used to be, numbskull, that you could get the same coverage from another carrier.

    Only if another carrier offered that choice, again pretty similar to now. Insurance companies are freely able to make a choice to deny you the plan you want. Or they can choose not to. Either way that’s on them.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  89. Tlaloc, stick to wishing for the deaths of people far more honorable than you.

    its your only talent.

    SPQR (2939bb)

  90. I’m done with this guy. He lives to piss people off. Sick sick sick person. God help me from being angry.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  91. I’m done with this guy. He lives to piss people off. Sick sick sick person. God help me from being angry.

    Actually I’m here to educate. If you get pissed off at that idea… well, that doesn’t reflect poorly on me, kevin.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  92. elissa–

    “more than 2 million”. And it depends what you mean by “booted”. If they replace plan X with a somewhat different plan X2 and double the price is that being “booted”? It is arguably losing your plan, though.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  93. 85. …Wow! Yes! You did get one right. Nothing gives churches license to break the law. Churches are exempt from certain aspects of obamacare. Businesss, regardless of who runs them, are not. That is exactly how it should be.

    Congratulations, Steve! I knew you could get the hang of this eventually.

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:29 pm

    And here I was thinking Leonid Brezhnev was dead.

    Thanks, Flailoc, for reminding me his spirit lives on.

    Here I was thinking that based upon 225 years of US history that religious denominations get to decide for themselves what constitutes a religious ministry. Such as the Little Sisters of the Poor who’ve been around since 1836.

    But no! All of a sudden we’ve got Barack Obama. And Flailoc. Who demand the sluts pay for contraceptives and abortions or get the f*** out.

    Land of the free. Home of the brave.

    Thanks, Comrade, for reminding me.

    Steve57 (022c57)


  94. I’m done with this guy. He lives to piss people off. Sick sick sick person. God help me from being angry.

    Actually I’m here to educate. If you get pissed off at that idea… well, that doesn’t reflect poorly on me, kevin.

    QED

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  95. Tlaloc, stick to wishing for the deaths of people far more honorable than you.

    Still having to beat up strawmen, huh? You know perfectly well I didn’t wish death on anyone, I simply refuse to pretend that the deaths of CIA spooks engaged in black ops overseas is a tragedy. Personally I’d much rather those people had chosen a less evil line of work and lived happy lives. But they made their choices and they suffered the repercussions of those choices.

    Que sera sera.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  96. 92. …Actually I’m here to educate. If you get pissed off at that idea… well, that doesn’t reflect poorly on me, kevin.

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:37 pm

    And you succeed. Just not in the way you would like, Comrade.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  97. 92. “I’m here to educate.”

    We’re pretty sure you don’t know what that word means, comrade.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  98. Here I was thinking that based upon 225 years of US history that religious denominations get to decide for themselves what constitutes a religious ministry.

    No. Otherwise every corporation would declare itself a church and get tax exempt status. You can’t be this naive. There’s a church and then there’s a business. The former may own the latter but it’s still just a business.

    Period.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  99. “Is this guy an idiot or what?”

    Steve57 – I believe he has proven that many times over.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  100. Don’t even bother trying to educate TaFailalot, Kevin… a fool’s game if there ever was one.

    Colonel Haiku (1871f4)

  101. And you succeed. Just not in the way you would like, Comrade.

    Long as you learn something true it’s a net win.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  102. full idiot or half a moron, it’s a remedial effort where he’s concerned.

    Colonel Haiku (1871f4)

  103. 96. …Personally I’d much rather those people had chosen a less evil line of work and lived happy lives. But they made their choices and they suffered the repercussions of those choices.

    Que sera sera.

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:39 pm

    By “less evil line of work” you mean helping you force your domestic enemies to comply with your mandates?

    Of course you’d call it “voluntary.” You can always pay the fine for noncompliance. Until you set up the camps.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  104. Tlaloc, you are a liar.

    “I don’t shed tears over the people who do bad things in my name, actually I prefer they get what they have coming. “ emphasis added.

    You are a disgusting piece of slime, Tlaloc. One who wishes death on people far more honorable than you. People whose offense for which you wish their death is to be the people actually carrying out the incompetent policies of the President you defend here.

    When this society had any spine, people like you got rode out of town on rails, covered in hot tar and feathers.

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  105. But no! All of a sudden we’ve got Barack Obama. And Flailoc. Who demand the sluts pay for contraceptives and abortions or get the f*** out.

    the hell?

    I think you’ve forgotten which of us is which, Steve. You’re the one calling women, like Sandra Fluke, “sluts” and demanding they pay for their own contraception and abortions. I’m the one happy to cover reproductive health under insurance since it saves vastly more money than it costs (to say nothing of the social costs of unwanted childbirth).

    clear?

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  106. November 1, 2013, EBT outlays get ratched back a notch. DHS is preparing for riots, perhaps tipped off by the Xerox ugrade glitches during the Slowdown.

    Rolling brownouts, adjustments to the CPI, means testing, death panels, their are a number of adaptations coming that will on the pathogen as well as its host.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  107. “Insurance companies are freely able to make a choice to deny you the plan you want. Or they can choose not to. Either way that’s on them.”

    Tlaloc – Now they can’t because the government told them they have to cover whoever applies and what coverage they have to supply. I am no longer free to decline maternity coverage, substance abuse coverage, pediatric dental coverage and a host of other coverage riders which would reduce my premium.

    Heckuva job President Ostrich!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  108. I’ve yet to find anyone of the Left with any principles at all. Bile and hate filled, the lot.

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  109. 106. ” I’m the one happy to cover ”

    Oh, now he’s claiming he pays taxes.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  110. Tlaloc, you are a liar.

    It is interesting that to you the only possible way to read “hope they get what they have coming” is as a death wish.

    It says something about you SPQR. Not something complimentary, I might add.

    When this society had any spine, people like you got rode out of town on rails, covered in hot tar and feathers.

    Combined with your fantasies last night about me being assaulted in a bar I have to say you have a lot of violent thoughts wrt to me. You might want to seek counselling for anger issues. I really doubt this upwelling of ugliness is purely due to me educating you. There’s almost certainly a deeper issue that you’re just venting at me. Seriously. That kind of anger isn’t healthy it can and will damage your health and of course mental faculties.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  111. Not much you can do with a fellow who is always wrong but never in doubt. Simon said it best… you’ll never get that time back.

    Colonel Haiku (8a31be)

  112. Tlaloc – Now they can’t because the government told them they have to cover whoever applies and what coverage they have to supply. I am no longer free to decline maternity coverage, substance abuse coverage, pediatric dental coverage and a host of other coverage riders which would reduce my premium.

    Yes there are regulations on new policies. So what? If insurance had done a decent job over the last century we wouldn’t have come to this point but they consistently put their profit margins above human health and lives. And why wouldn’t they? They were businesses trying to make a buck, they just happened to be in the business of fleecing people and then abandoning them when they needed help.

    When that was your business model I think you get to shut up when government comes in and makes you do your actual job. It seems the majority agrees with me.

    You are of course welcome to try and convince them that being gouged by sociopaths was better.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  113. Anyone want to wade through the muddled thinking displayed by Flailoc @106?

    I don’t.

    It’s like dealing with a bird’s nest in a fishing line. And then some a**hole telling you your health care system should be modeled on it.

    Which bye the bye is why the Obamacare websites will never work.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  114. Oh, now he’s claiming he pays taxes.

    Of course I pay taxes. Practically everyone (except small children) does. Even people who make too little to pay federal and state income taxes (a status I’m not in now) still pays property taxes, sales taxes, etc.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  115. Tlaloc, your attempt to deny what you wrote says a lot about you. Especially combined with the fact that you have lied about anything and everything.

    The one with disturbed mental processes is the one wishing death for people whose only offense is carrying out Obama’s policies.

    You.

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  116. Did someone abandon you along the way, Tlaloc? Is that what all this is about for you?

    elissa (ed2492)

  117. Which bye the bye is why the Obamacare websites will never work.

    Gentleman’s wager that the sites are working well enough by the new year that’s no longer an issue?

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  118. 106. …I’m the one happy to cover reproductive health under insurance since it saves vastly more money than it costs (to say nothing of the social costs of unwanted childbirth).

    clear?

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:46 pm

    No, Flailoc, on another thread you claimed to suffer from a condition that threatened to cripple you. So you’re not happy to cover anything. You’ are selfishly voting to steal money from others to cover you.

    You’ve already revealed yourself, whore.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  119. Tlaloc has told so many contradictory things about himself that nothing he’s written should be believed at all.

    But I’m pretty confident Tlaloc pays no taxes and is another leach on the American taxpayer. The actual working people he despises so much.

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  120. Tlaloc, your attempt to deny what you wrote says a lot about you. Especially combined with the fact that you have lied about anything and everything.

    For someone who claims I lie about everything you’ve yet to establish even one actual instance of me lying. You have a lot of instances of you failing to understand what I wrote, or of you making up arguments I never made, but not even once have you found an actual verified lie.

    Seems like it would be easy if I lied as much as you claim…

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  121. There’s a going postal quality about the troll that seems to be escalating. Stress’ll do that.

    elissa (ed2492)

  122. Gentlemen’s wager? Another status you can’t qualify for, Tlaloc. You are scum.

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  123. http://patterico.com/2013/10/21/teh-one-gives-speech-on-obamacare-success-to-date/comment-page-6/

    61. …No I can’t provide my own healthcare. I rely on highly trained professionals with advanced technology. Speaking personally, as someone with a long term condition that will eventually cripple me, I find your question pretty arrogant and callow.

    Comment by Tlaloc (169e3d) — 10/21/2013 @ 4:46 pm

    You can’t provide your own health care and you say you’re happy to cover someone else when you can’t cover yourself, beeeotch?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  124. Flailoc @121, see #124. It’s actually easy to establish you are lying.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  125. Tlaloc, I’ve established scores of examples of your lying. Your brazen lies have been established for all here.

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  126. Did someone abandon you along the way, Tlaloc? Is that what all this is about for you?

    Elissa I’ve been perfectly upfront about my motivations. I find the right has become sick. It has developed a disturbing anti-intellectual streak coupled with massive mistrust of any news source that doesn’t tell it what it already believes. This has lead to an information bubble or echo chamber where bad data (whether from misunderstanding or injected by hucksters) gets uncritically accepted and repeated until it becomes gospel truth to those in the bubble.

    It has also retreated into an unhealthy cliquish attitude where the veracity of a source is based not on any objective measure but by whether the source is in or out of the clique. Consequently anything rush says is immediately accepted while anything obama says is immediately discounted irregardless of the actual truth of the statements.

    That’s a terrible combination of attributes for a group. It really really needs to be undone. I can’t do much to help but I’ll do what I can. And you’ll hate me for it, but I’m really not looking to be your friend so that’s okay. What matters is injecting just a tiny sliver of perspective into the bubble.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  127. Shorter Flailoc:

    I’m the one happy to cover reproductive health under insurance…

    No I can’t provide my own healthcare. I rely on…

    Response?

    http://danieljmitchell.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/libertarian-jesus.jpg

    Steve57 (022c57)

  128. Gentlemen’s wager? Another status you can’t qualify for, Tlaloc. You are scum.

    I take it that means you know you’d lose, otherwise wouldn’t you jump at the chance to rub my face in it?

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  129. There is nothing in Obama’s EPA regulations which requires coal-fired utility plants to shut down!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  130. Jon Stewart on Obama’s continual excuse of being out of the loop: ““As if the Charmin bear just found out what people actually do with this toilet paper.”

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  131. Over the past year the Fed has purchased $1 Trillion in Treasuries and MBS. They paid US banks another $500 Billion and we run an account deficit with the rest of the world of another $500 Billion.

    That is 13% of GDP right there that is not accounted for by goods or services produced. Let’s see what we can expect:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-29/four-horsemen-europes-deflationary-threat

    We are third behind Japan and Greece in per capita debt ahead of Spain, Italy, Cyprus, …

    The debt we rolled over this year demands a higher rate of repayment, roughly $700 Billion more.

    404Care isn’t an example of a cockup we may or may not survive, it is an entailment of collapse.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  132. Tlaloc, I don’t make wagers with known welshers, liars and despicable person of no integrity.

    You fall into all three categories.

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  133. “What matters is injecting just a tiny sliver of perspective into the bubble.”

    Tlaloc – When I tried to do that on Kevin Drum’s site he banned me because……epistemic closure.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  134. You can’t provide your own health care and you say you’re happy to cover someone else when you can’t cover yourself, beeeotch?

    Reread what I wrote there steve. When I say provide I mean do the job of doctors and nurses. No I can’t operate my own MRI or do my own surgery. When I said cover I was talking about paying for. Yes I can pay for my healthcare (as part of an employer provided package) and I can contribute tax dollars towards helping those who are less fortunate.

    See what I mean when I say that these supposed lies you catch me in are clearly functions of your difficulty simply reading and understanding?

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  135. gary gulrud, the Obama administration’s policies of running the printing presses at full steam is going to cause an immense economic collapse when the rubber band breaks.

    Probably as bad or worse than 2008 recession.

    An immense amount of destruction is being accomplished at Obama’s behest.

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  136. Tlaloc, I don’t make wagers with known welshers, liars and despicable person of no integrity.

    If you say so, my explanation still seems more likely.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  137. 127. … And you’ll hate me for it, but I’m really not looking to be your friend so that’s okay. What matters is injecting just a tiny sliver of perspective into the bubble.

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 1:04 pm

    Hate is too strong a word, Flailoc. I don’t hate you. I scorn you. I have contempt for you. I enjoy mocking you. But I don’t hate you.

    And you do inject perspective. We totally got your perspective. You can’t provide for your own health care. And while you’re voting to steal from others to pay for your wants and/or needs, what the hell? You’ll vote to steal from others to cover other people’s desires, too.

    And you’ll call your theft “generosity.”

    Another word you don’t know the meaning of.

    Yeah. Got it. Your perspective.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  138. Tlaloc – When I tried to do that on Kevin Drum’s site he banned me because……epistemic closure.

    Really? I see lots of conservatives posting at washington monthly, mother jones, etc. I don’t see any liberals at redstate on the other hand. In fact you’re hard pressed to even find a moderate republican at redstate.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  139. CBS News contradicts Politifact’s “half true” nonsense with this:

    But the hard numbers reveal the evidence is far more than anecdotal. CBS News has confirmed with insurance companies across the country that more than two million people are getting notices they no longer can keep their existing plans. In California, there are 279,000; in Michigan, 140,000; Florida, 300,000; and in New Jersey, 800,000. And those numbers are certain to go even higher. Some companies who tell CBS News they’ve sent letters won’t say how many.

    SPQR (9c5bd8)

  140. We totally got your perspective. You can’t provide for your own health care.

    Still with the reading comprehension issue, huh?

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  141. CBS News contradicts Politifact’s “half true” nonsense with this:

    Still conflating getting a notice that you are being rolled over into a plan with losing coverage entirely. This is what I mean about being chicken littles.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  142. Will this be thought of in the future as one of the “intolerable acts”?

    Can’t wait for the new tax on green and/or herbal tea.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  143. Today we hear that 77% of physicians surveyed have not signed on to cover Medicaid patients and accept payment–roughly 60% of schedule.

    Of those who did 3 in 4 were already under contract thru 2014.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  144. Comment by SPQR (9c5bd8) — 10/29/2013 @ 1:13 pm

    All of that pales in light of the awesome 326 sign-ups in Maryland!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  145. Now that he’s clearly outlined what he considers his “motivation” for his presence here to be, it makes his narcissism, his nastiness, and his lack of any sense of rhetorical or intellectual persuasion all the more disturbing and glaring. (Except that it’s all just BS.)

    elissa (ed2492)

  146. Will this be thought of in the future as one of the “intolerable acts”?

    It’s really not that different than the roll out of SS or medicare. If you’re expecting a second american revolution I think you’ll be very disappointed.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

    This polling really doesn’t look revolution inspiring.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  147. Who was threatened with a fine and/or extra tax, for not “contributing” to SocSec and/or Medicare/Medicaid?

    Maroon!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  148. Sandra Fluke can pay for her own birth control pills and her own abortion. (The gynecologist exam where she gets her hormone ‘script should be covered by insurance.)

    If there does exist a woman who can’t pay for her own abortion, I believe we have charitable organizations for that, who should not get money from the government and should be prevented from commingling funds to that effect.

    If you support abortion, I heartily suggest you donate to such a charitable cause. I have other charitable causes I am donating to and I will thank you to keep your hand out of my wallet.

    luagha (5cbe06)

  149. You can’t go to the competition.

    That’s why we have other countries, so you can always go to the competition.

    Craig Mc (fed119)

  150. 135. …Reread what I wrote there steve. When I say provide I mean do the job of doctors and nurses…

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 1:08 pm

    It’s hard to understand complete idiocy. You’re now claiming you meant you couldn’t provide your own health care in the sense that no sentient mammal would ever claim.

    You can’t do your own podiatry and cardiology and oncology and gynecology.

    Ergo, Obamacare!

    That on a comment thread where you commented that it was unfair that rich people could pay for more health care than poor people.

    Tell us, Flailoc, how does Obamacare improve the odds of you performing major surgery on yourself.

    I thought it was about paying for it.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  151. tlaloc, didn’t you say you were getting a degree in networking? Are you of the belief that the Healthcare.gov website problem was one of scale, i.e., the system was overwhelmed by the amount of traffic to the web site?

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  152. “If insurance had done a decent job over the last century we wouldn’t have come to this point but they consistently put their profit margins above human health and lives……..

    When that was your business model I think you get to shut up when government comes in and makes you do your actual job. It seems the majority agrees with me.”

    Tlaloc – The above evidences very disjointed distorted thinking. Insurance companies were paid to insure risks enumerated in the policies they issued which were paid for by their customers. Nothing more, nothing less. No coercion.

    That you believe they had some other mission is pure wishcasting and fantasy on your part.

    Now Obama is telling insurance companies what customers they must accept, what risks they must insure against and the minimum losses they must pay out on each policy.

    They changed the whole ball game.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  153. 61. Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 10/29/2013 @ 11:44 am

    How long before Obama tries to call it Pelosicare, claiming he never knew what was in the plan and had to sign it to find out?

    I didn’t know this till I stumbled across this today, but Obama was actually personally involved:

    http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/fact-check-2-obama-v-house-republicans/

    But while much of the legislative process was public, most of the crucial decisions were made in private talks. A small group of bipartisan senators on the Finance Committee, led by Senator Max Baucus, Democrat of Montana, met for months behind closed doors in an effort to develop a compromise bill.

    The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, worked to combine two versions of the Senate legislation in closed meetings with Senate leaders in his office. And more recently, Mr. Obama presided over talks between House and Senate Democrats to bridge the final differences between the bills adopted late last year. Those meetings were held in the Cabinet Room at the White House, and Mr. Obama and other top administration officials admonished participants that they did not want the details of the discussions shared with the news media or the public.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  154. Isn’t it interesting how a “throw away” line during the campaign has morphed into what some would consider a criminal conspiracy to defraud the public, and to deprive Americans of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness?

    Every Democrat in the 111th Congress that voted for passage of the PPACA, should be prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to prison for a RICO violation.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  155. I have other charitable causes I am donating to and I will thank you to keep your hand out of my wallet.

    Sorry, but no. Assuming you live here you get a lot of services directly or indirectly from the government. You need to pay your share. This is not option, nor will it ever be.

    If you find it truly unbearable then feel free to emigrate to some place without a functioning government to collect taxes. I hear somalia is really quite nice in the fall. The Sudan is less pleasant.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  156. It’s hard to understand complete idiocy. You’re now claiming you meant you couldn’t provide your own health care in the sense that no sentient mammal would ever claim.

    If you had bothered to read the sentence after the one you fixate on it would have been obvious what I was talking about.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  157. tlaloc, didn’t you say you were getting a degree in networking? Are you of the belief that the Healthcare.gov website problem was one of scale, i.e., the system was overwhelmed by the amount of traffic to the web site?

    In the first couple days it looked like there was some of that. I don’t think that was the only problem or a continuing problem at this point.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  158. They never were able to pass that version of the bill, if they in fact ever settled on language, and went with the Senate bill.

    After Scott Brown was elected to the Senate, the bill was rumored to be close to being dropped. But Obama had decided to go ahead.

    http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/28/emanuel-democrats-not-dropping-health-care/

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  159. No, not really Flailoc. Tell us how Obamacare will facilitate your do-it-yourself triple bypass?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  160. I have a medical book for Turdlock:

    Lobotomies for Dummies!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  161. “Still conflating getting a notice that you are being rolled over into a plan with losing coverage entirely.”

    Tlaloc – How is receiving a notice which says your existing plan is terminated not equivalent to losing coverage? Please explain?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  162. So, did your comment at 156 make sense to you and seem relevant to this discussion topic when you hit “submit”?

    elissa (ed2492)

  163. 157. …If you had bothered to read the sentence after the one you fixate on it would have been obvious what I was talking about.

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 1:31 pm

    I did. And perhaps too generously I gave you the benefit of a doubt you didn’t deserve. As in, nobody could be this stupid.

    Are you that stupid? Yes or no.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  164. Tlaloc – The above evidences very disjointed distorted thinking. Insurance companies were paid to insure risks enumerated in the policies they issued which were paid for by their customers. Nothing more, nothing less. No coercion.

    That you believe they had some other mission is pure wishcasting and fantasy on your part.

    No. If you study the insurance industry even a little, and most likely if you have any personal experience with it you will know that it is routine for insurance companies to cancel policies the moment you become a net drag on their resouces. They’ll take your money while you are healthy and then cut you off when you get a sickness that looks like a net loss for them. Yes you can sue them, but it’s trivial for them to win given that they can point to any slight discrepancy on your forms as grounds and even if you have an ironclad case against them they can simply wait you out in court. Time is on their side when the plaintiff has cancer, or AIDS, or whatever.

    That was simply how the business worked.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  165. 17. Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 10/29/2013 @ 7:47 am

    I’m sure the zipster just learned of this in a NYT article. I’m surprised the Finknado hasn’t linked some inane drivel from the fishwrap of record.

    He’s not acknowledging it even now. Jay Carney did yesterday, but so far we haven’t heard from Obama himself.

    But he did acknowledge it before the bill passed! (and Sarah Palin pointed it out and Rush Limbaugh broadcast it)

    http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/obamacare-stray-dog-so-says-president/274945918434

    The RealclearPolitics link is broken.

    But here it is:

    Obama said to House Republicans in Baltimore, on Friday, January 29, 2010:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2010/jan/31/videoobama-health-care-bill-some-provisions-got-sn/

    …If you look at the package that we’ve presented — and there’s some stray cats and dogs that got in there that we were eliminating….

    ….we were in the process of eliminating. For example, we said from the start that it was going to be important for us to be consistent in saying to people if you can have your — if you want to keep the health insurance you got, you can keep it, that you’re not going to have anybody getting in between you and your doctor in your decision making. And I think that some of the provisions that got snuck in might have violated that pledge, and so we were in the process of scrubbing this and making sure that it was tight.

    But then Scott Brown was elected to the Senate, making it impossible to change that bill.

    He was, in effect, telling Republicans: “It’s your fault! Now the only way forward for me is to pass the Senate bill unchanged, with the stray cats and dogs in it. I need your votes for the bill as it is. But anyway, don’t worry, it’s only a possible violation of that pledge, just an oversight.”

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  166. Or malicious, Flailoc. That’s the only other possibility.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  167. No, not really Flailoc. Tell us how Obamacare will facilitate your do-it-yourself triple bypass?

    Wow. Your lack of reading comprehension is complete. Hint- I said nothing of the kind.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  168. The meeting made the New York Times, but I don’t know if his admission about maybe not being able to keep your insurance got into it anywhere.

    Maybe it is somewhere in the comments to some article.

    There are several articles dealing with this encounter.

    The New York Times did find another embarassment for Obama: (about C-Span not showing health care negotiations on live television.)

    http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/fact-check-2-obama-v-house-republicans/

    But while much of the legislative process was public, most of the crucial decisions were made in private talks.

    Other articles in the New York Times that cover that meeting:

    http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/obama-squares-off-with-house-republicans-on-health-care/

    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/obama-house-republicans-debate-their-divisions/

    It’s not so easy to search other places.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  169. Still conflating getting a notice that you are being rolled over into a plan with losing coverage entirely. This is what I mean about being chicken littles.

    Unbelievable! You continually conflate those who advocate for smaller government with advocating against government. I believe the example you gave was Grover Norquist, even though Grover Norquist’s pledge was to follow the Constitution, and that government should limit its action to those enumerated in the Constitution.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  170. Here is the parlous state we’re in:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-29/ten-us-cities-less-ten-days-cash-hand

    Let’s double Medical costs to the public maybe that’ll help.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  171. Tlaloc – How is receiving a notice which says your existing plan is terminated not equivalent to losing coverage? Please explain?

    Because you left out the part where they say “instead of your old plan you’re getting plan a starting Jan 1st, unless you call up and request b or c or d or e instead.”

    No lost coverage. The plan changes because the insurance company changed things but you still have a plan.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  172. State exchanges are doing great.

    JD (38de4e)

  173. In the troll’s example, it fails to note that your new choices offer less choice, higher deductibles, higher premiums, and mandate coverages you neither want nor need. Because choice.

    JD (38de4e)

  174. Gentleman’s wager that the sites are working well enough by the new year that’s no longer an issue?

    Define a “working well enough” metric. And why wait until January 1st? Didn’t the administration say it’d be done by November 30th?

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  175. obamacare – a democrat made disaster.

    mg (31009b)

  176. 165. Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 1:36 pm

    If you study the insurance industry even a little, and most likely if you have any personal experience with it you will know that it is routine for insurance companies to cancel policies the moment you become a net drag on their resouces.

    They were cancellinng policies on the grounds that people had concealed pre-existing conditions, even of the pre0existing condition in question, had nothing to do with the illness.

    That was outlawed by the PPACA, and became effective some years ago, and it is rather minor provision, and insurance companies can live with it, and nobody is complaining about that provision. It wasn’t all that common. More usually the look bacl period was limited and it did have to apply to the disease in question/ But siomeinsurance companies had decdied to go after and re-examine every policy where someone wass costing thjem alot of money, maybe they could cancel.

    This business of trying to not pay claims is endemic among all insurance companies, insurimng anything. Not that every company does this all the time, but it something too watch out for.

    They’ll take your money while you are healthy and then cut you off when you get a sickness that looks like a net loss for them. Yes you can sue them, but it’s trivial for them to win given that they can point to any slight discrepancy on your forms as grounds and even if you have an ironclad case against them they can simply wait you out in court. Time is on their side when the plaintiff has cancer, or AIDS, or whatever.

    That was simply how the business worked.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  177. Unbelievable! You continually conflate those who advocate for smaller government with advocating against government. I believe the example you gave was Grover Norquist, even though Grover Norquist’s pledge was to follow the Constitution, and that government should limit its action to those enumerated in the Constitution.

    Grover Norquist openly said he wanted to shrink government to the point where he could drown it in a bathtub. Plenty of your fellow travelers on the right celebrated the shutdown and sugested it go on permanently. It is not at all hard to find examples of people on the right saying that government is simply evil and should be done away with.

    Usually they confine themselves to talking about the federal government but of course once they killed that then the state government would switch from being the experimental labs of democracy to being the cruel fascist tyrants.

    Sorry but if you don’t see a huge streak of simply anti-government fervor on the right you’re blind. It’s glaring. It’s obvious. It’s there.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  178. In the troll’s example, it fails to note that your new choices offer less choice, higher deductibles, higher premiums, and mandate coverages you neither want nor need. Because choice.

    Evidence please. Not of single cases but of this always or even usually being true.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  179. They’ll take your money while you are healthy and then cut you off when you get a sickness that looks like a net loss for them. Yes you can sue them, but it’s trivial for them to win given that they can point to any slight discrepancy on your forms as grounds and even if you have an ironclad case against them they can simply wait you out in court.

    If the case was ironclad, they’d be setting themselves up for liability. Whatever the story this was outlawed and it is not that provision of the PPACA that anybody is complaining about.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  180. 168. …Wow. Your lack of reading comprehension is complete. Hint- I said nothing of the kind.

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 1:37 pm

    Perhaps for our edification you might clarify why you thought it was relevant to observe you couldn’t do the jobs of specialist doctors and nurses when advocating for Obamacare.

    Given that even the opponents of Obamacare never claimed otherwise.

    Por favor.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  181. If I don’t respond for a while it’s because I’m heading down to the Firestone car shop to get a stent installed in my aorta.

    I’ll be in bay 2 if you need to reach me in an emergency.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  182. A longtime friend of mine recently married a pompous dipshit like Tlaloc–always whining, always envious of others’ happiness or success, always complaining how unfair life is, how the cards are stacked against the little guy. He thinks he’s an unappreciated genius who just can’t catch a break. It’s a type.

    elissa (ed2492)

  183. This business of trying to not pay claims is endemic among all insurance companies, insurimng anything.

    Yes but the issue was much worse in the case of health insurance for the reasons I outlined- the aggrieved customer generally lacked the energy to fight their insurance company on the matter while also dealing with a serious illness. Or they died in the process at which point the case became moot.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  184. Perhaps for our edification you might clarify why you thought it was relevant to observe you couldn’t do the jobs of specialist doctors and nurses when advocating for Obamacare.

    You’re the one who brought up my post. Go back and read the discussion, Steve.

    Tlaloc (d061fc)

  185. This business of trying to not pay claims is endemic among all insurance companies, insurimng anything. Not that every company does this all the time, but it something too watch out for.

    Have you ever had a health insurance claim denied? The paperwork you have to fill out for the insurance company for a long term illness is regulated by the government. Each question on the forms were accompanied by the section of government code regulating the industry.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  186. 184. …You’re the one who brought up my post. Go back and read the discussion, Steve.

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 1:50 pm

    No, Flailoc, I’m the one who pointed out how what you’re saying now conflicts with what you said before.

    It’s not my job to make it work, punk.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  187. 176. And nothing that can happen will change that fact by 2015. 60 Million people lose there plan and/or doctor.

    Most of the uninsured are not subsidized and choose not to afford care.

    The average doctor eschews Medicaid. Tens of thousands of pre-Med students change abandon their plans.

    Hospitals and clinics continue rounds of mergers and monopolization.

    Happy New Year.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  188. 96. Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:39 pm

    I simply refuse to pretend that the deaths of CIA spooks engaged in black ops overseas is a tragedy.

    I’m not sure what’s the matter with you here.

    They weren’t engaged in anything evil that we can tell, and they weren’t even all “spooks”.

    Are you starting to side with the al Qaeda linked murderers? What’s going on here?

    Is your syllogism:

    The Obama Administration can do no wrong.
    The Obama Administration is responsible for the deaths in Benghazi.
    Therefore the deaths weren’t wrong, or at least not a tragedy.

    Personally I’d much rather those people had chosen a less evil line of work

    Where’s the evil here? Do you think they were capturing and torturing people? And innocent people at that?

    Or is being in the military (as most of them had been) and/or having military weapons, just plain evil? or is just having any kind of connection with espionage or coovert action evil, and anybody who dies as a result suffers the fate he deserves?

    Christopher Stevens was involved in overthrowing Quaddafi. Was that evil, too?

    Do you think maybe he was facilitating the shipping of weapons to Jihadists in Syria? I think the opposite is more likely. He was attempting to interfere with that. Maybe the evil is attempting to prevent the shipping of weapons to Syria?

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  189. One of the new lies here is that X% of people will pay less than (some small amount of money like $50 or $100)

    The catch is many people will pay nothing (so longar as they keep their income very low)

    But very few people will pay anywhere near these dollar amounts that they are citing.

    They are trying to give a false impression.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  190. “This business of trying to not pay claims is endemic among all insurance companies, insurimng anything.”

    Sammy – Insurance companies which do not pay legitimate claims wind up going out of business because they have no customers or regulators shut them down.

    A major problem is stupid customers getting misled into believing they have legitimate claims when in fact they do not. Just look at Tlaloc rhetoric, this is something insurance companies were supposed to do. If it is not covered by the policy, you don’t get paid.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  191. 189. MiniMe speaks.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  192. A major problem is stupid customers getting misled into believing they have legitimate claims when in fact they do not. Just look at Tlaloc rhetoric, this is something insurance companies were supposed to do. If it is not covered by the policy, you don’t get paid.

    The paperwork needs to be filled out correctly by the patient and doctor, or you get denied. As I stated earlier, each question is accompanied by the section of governmental regulatory law that corresponds to the question(s).

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  193. Sorry but if you don’t see a huge streak of simply anti-government fervor on the right you’re blind. It’s glaring. It’s obvious. It’s there.

    IOW, you feel your conflation is appropriate, right?

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  194. It is sad that an academic teaching assistant doesn’t know the difference between anti-government and anti- overbearing nanny state overbearing big progressive government.

    As far as examples, apparently your bubble cannot be pierced.

    JD (38de4e)

  195. 190. And during the 404Care legislation process, it was claimed it would work to cut Medicare $500 Billion and add customers.

    Because of unresolved graft and corruption running to $80 Billion per.

    “We’ll get right on that.”

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  196. 187 – The guilty line at the gallows will include Insurance executives.

    mg (31009b)

  197. when obama lies to me it makes me feel like he doesn’t have any respect for me as an individual

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  198. and it’s not a good feeling

    it makes me feel sad inside

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  199. SS and Medicaid are paid out of the General Fund.

    I see trouble.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  200. Elissa – at its best, it is a whiny petulant entitled little bltch.

    JD (0cb8ef)

  201. 198. 199. But thank goodness at least you are smart enough to see right through his lies, Mr. Feets. Some people, unfortunately, are not mentally equipped or psychologically able to do that. They’re the ones we really need to worry about.

    elissa (ed2492)

  202. elissa when they find out how badly they been lied to there’s not gonna be enough therapy dogs to go around

    that’s just the math

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  203. Looks like OFA turned down the lights for the day.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  204. Sebelius is going to blame the contractors in her testimony. This, after the contractors blamed CMS. It’ll be interesting to find out what the contract specified with regard to performance, Someone had to sign off that the work was completed, or if the website didn’t meet the specifications of the contract, we should get a refund.
    When I worked on a government contract inspections and audits were required prior to payment. Hopefully, instead of making opening statements, the hearing should go directly to questioning.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  205. “The paperwork needs to be filled out correctly by the patient and doctor, or you get denied.”

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 – We are talking past each other. My point is that even if the paperwork is filled out correctly by the patient and doctor if we are talking about a health insurance claim, you can get denied if it is for coverage that is not a part of the policy.

    Many people automatically assume every health care expenditure is a legitimate claim without checking coverage exclusions, etc.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  206. meh… if wishes were horses he’d still be a road apple.

    Colonel Haiku (7865e7)

  207. i went to lunch with liberals today talking about obamacare cause we’re doing this little obamacare thing here at work

    the one guy says I don’t know why it got politicized so badly in the first place

    and the other guy is like yeah I don’t get that either, but it sure has been

    I said it’s probably cause it’s a massive redistribution program that creates a massive class of “winners” at the expense of a readily identifiable class of losers who will be paying much higher rates and taxes than they otherwise would’ve

    then I giggled a little

    happyfeet (c60db2)

  208. Hey, here’s the CEO of Aetna, explaining why premium rates are going up.

    Icy (ad1237)

  209. ” Tlaloc – How is receiving a notice which says your existing plan is terminated not equivalent to losing coverage? Please explain?

    Because you left out the part where they say “instead of your old plan you’re getting plan a starting Jan 1st, unless you call up and request b or c or d or e instead.”

    No lost coverage. The plan changes because the insurance company changed things but you still have a plan.

    Comment by Tlaloc (d061fc) — 10/29/2013 @ 1:39 pm”

    Tlaloc – You must not have read the letter received by the wife of a commenter on the site from Blue Shield that was a part of this post. It is nothing like the scenario you outlined.

    Do you have an actual example of your scenario?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  210. TANSTAAFL, baby. Obama knows that and doesn’t care; this is about redistributing wealth, not healthcare.

    Beldar (f127cb)

  211. Tlaloc:

    “What matters is injecting just a tiny sliver of perspective into the bubble.”

    The funniest comment ever posted in the history of Patterico.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  212. It’s not even about that Beldar, it’s about accumulating POWER.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  213. Still conflating getting a notice that you are being rolled over into a plan with losing coverage entirely.

    Still conflating a notice that they are rolling you over into something quite different at a much higher price, and “keeping your plan if you like it.”

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  214. And more recently, Mr. Obama presided over talks between House and Senate Democrats to bridge the final differences between the bills adopted late last year.

    Sammy, you are Internet dumpster-diving with that one. They never passed a conference plan, they passed the Senate plan verbatim. So Obama’s input was utterly useless.

    Scott Brown replaced Ted Kennedy and they couldn’t break a filibuster. So the House had to take it or leave it because if it went back to the Senate it was a goner.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  215. 211. I know its just ankle biting but I think its more like pithing the frog with a pen knife.

    Dozens of times.

    Until the thing quits breathing.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  216. Evidence please. Not of single cases but of this always or even usually being true.

    Trolls are always demanding evidence while providing none. And when they get it there will always be a problem with it, it it will just raise more questions in their mind. Kind of like proving to someone that space aliens didn’t kill Kennedy. “You have no EVIDENCE” they cry.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  217. … it, or it …

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  218. “What matters is injecting just a tiny sliver of perspective into the bubble.”

    This from a supporter of a President who proudly limits his reading to the [headlines of the] NY Times.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  219. SS and Medicaid are paid out of the General Fund.

    Actually, since they stopped the FICA tax cut, SS is paid entirely out of the SS Trust Fund, which has a positive cash flow.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  220. 217. And the funniest thing is that once martial law is declared the life expectancy of such orcs is numbered in weeks.

    Once the usefulness of ‘bleeding capitalism dry’ has run its course what does the Politburo need of debits to its accounts?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  221. 61. 154. 159. 215.

    New York Times prescriptions blog, January 29, 2010, fact check 2:

    And more recently, Mr. Obama presided over talks between House and Senate Democrats to bridge the final differences between the bills adopted late last year.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 10/29/2013 @ 3:20 pm

    Sammy, you are Internet dumpster-diving with that one. They never passed a conference plan, they passed the Senate plan verbatim. So Obama’s input was utterly useless.

    Right. I mentioned that in comment 159. It wasn’t Pelosi’s plan either, though. The blog post says Harry Reid put it together.

    Later a few of the things in the Senate bill, like the Cornhusker kickback (that exempted Nebraska from ever having to pay for the expansion of Medicaid) was repealed by the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010, which was a budget bill and could not be filibustered.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ152/pdf/PLAW-111publ152.pdf

    It was signed into law March 30, 2010.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/president-obama-signs-historic-health-care-and-education-legislation

    This talks only about Pell grants. wikipedia explains it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Care_and_Education_Reconciliation_Act_of_2010

    Scott Brown replaced Ted Kennedy and they couldn’t break a filibuster. So the House had to take it or leave it because if it went back to the Senate it was a goner.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  222. “I know its just ankle biting but I think its more like pithing the frog with a pen knife.”

    gary – Sometimes I wonder what it’s like for people of Tlaloc’s ilk to realize that dumb conservative hicks pointed out the flaws in Unaffordable 404Care years ago and the lies with which it was being peddled, while our liberal elite either did not understand what was going on or were willingly going along with aggressive and blatant lies to the public in order to advance the president’s agenda.

    Either way, it does not say much for the intelligence or morality of the left.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  223. The changes made by the second bill after the Senate bill became law were, according to Wikipedia:

    Increased the tax credits to buy insurance

    Eliminated several of the special deals given to senators, such as Ben Nelson’s “Cornhusker Kickback”

    Lowered the penalty for not buying insurance from $750 to $695.

    Closed the Medicare Part D “donut hole” by 2020 and gives seniors a rebate of $250.

    Delayed the implementation on taxing “Cadillac health-care plans” until 2018.

    Required doctors who treat Medicare patients be reimbursed at the full rate.

    Set up a medicare tax on the unearned incomes of families that earn more than $250,000 annually.

    Offered more generous subsidies to lower income groups. Households below 150% of the federal poverty level would pay 2% to 4% of their income on premiums. Health plans would cover 94% of the cost of benefits. Households with incomes from 150% to 400% of the federal poverty level ($88,200 for a family of four) would pay on a sliding scale from 4% to 9.8% of their income on premiums, rest will be covered by government advanceable, refundable tax credit. Health plans would cover 70% of the cost of the benefits.

    In 2014, if a company with more than 50 workers does not offer coverage, they will be obligated to pay $2,000 for each full-time worker in the company, exempting the money due for the first 30 employees. For example, an employer with 53 workers will pay the penalty for 23 workers, or $46,000. [Obama unilaterally delayed that one year citing “transition” authority]

    Increased Medicaid payment rates to primary care doctors to match Medicare payment rates, which are higher, in 2013 and 2014.

    The federal government would pay all of the costs of expanding Medicaid under the reform until 2016, 95% in 2017, 94% in 2018, 93% in 2019, and 90% thereafter.

    Some states that already insure childless adults under Medicaid would receive more federal money for covering that group through 2018.

    The Medicare patients will receive 50% discount on brand-name drugs would begin in 2011. By 2020, the government would pay to provide up to 75% discount on brand-name and generic drugs, eventually closing the coverage gap.

    Extended the ban on lifetime limits and rescission of coverage to all existing health plans within six months after signing into Law.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  224. I guess no overtime for Ziploc today. Off the clock promptly at 5:00 Eastern. Like some of the other trolls from yore.

    Gazzer (bd560d)

  225. ” they have ceased to be, they are no more, they have joined thechoir primeval, bereft of life, they rest in peace”

    narciso (3fec35)

  226. I don’t know if he ranked them in the right order of importance m, but the chief iof aetna said theer were 3 factors.

    1) Minimum actuarial benefit is now 60% – with individual plans it has actually averaged below 50%.

    2) There is now an additional 4% to 5% in taxes.

    3) Benefit increases. (apparently some plans are already very comprehensive)

    the net result is that there is an average increase in charges of 30% to 40%, and a range of increase going from about 10% to over 100%.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  227. Hey, get a good night’s sleep and good luck on the stand tomorrow, Kathleen. The “contractor” you plan to pin the blame on does not look like it plans to go down easily.

    CNN has released a report that the main Healthcare.gov contractor CGI warned the Obama administration one month in advance that there were critical problems preventing them from ensuring a clean launch of the website. In particular, the administration was warned that testing was being obstructed.
    …The administration has already been criticized for the no-bid arrangement that led to CGI being the lead contractor on the Healthcare.gov project. Now we find out that this hand-picked contractor wasn’t even allowed to do its job.

    Here, via CNN is quote from the CGI memo:

    “CGI does not have access to necessary tools to manage envs in test, imp, and prod. Specifically (1) we don’t have access to central log collection / view (2) we don’t have access to monitoring tools. We have repeatedly asked CMS and URS but have not been granted this access.”

    http://www.redstate.com/2013/10/29/cnn-reports-obama-admin-failed-to-ensure-contractors-could-test-healthcare-gov/

    elissa (ed2492)

  228. Actually, since they stopped the FICA tax cut, SS is paid entirely out of the SS Trust Fund, which has a positive cash flow.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7)

    Is it back in the Lock Box that Al Gore was so fond of lisping about back in 2000?

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  229. Oh, leave Flailoc alone. He just wants to educate us to point of servility so as we’re not a burden on society.

    Speaking of which.

    – Witnesses believe Carlos Burle beat the world record for riding the tallest wave today as he surfed the waters off Praia do Norte, Protugal.
    – Beach known among surfers for huge waves because it picks up full brunt of violent Atlantic storm swells

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2478575/Brazilian-surfer-set-new-World-Record-riding-100-foot-storm-wave-coast-Portugal.html#ixzz2j9oS6IO4
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    Cowabunga, dude! Oh noes, what to do?

    Beach music is what we need.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omG-hZfN6zk

    PIPELINE – The Chantays

    Or maybe the this version.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSjRggiSBrU

    Steve57 (022c57)

  230. Is this guy an idiot or what?

    @82 Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:28 pm

    He is a useful idiot charged with pretending that Obamacare is a success: wise, well-planned and beneficial for all.

    The beauty about Obamacare is that all the useful idiots in the world cannot change the fact the the middle class has just been walloped with a significant tax for no gain in health care. Many are now realizing the President has deceived them. The MSM cannot make that fact go away, despite best efforts (like making pertinent paragraphs disappear).

    An aside: I live in an extremely liberal area of CA, and for the first time my liberal friends and acquaintances are PO’ed with Obamacare. Although they cannot stand the GOP, the pain in their wallets is forcing some to say the unthinkable. About half have openly said they regret voting for Mr. Obama. A few now mock him. Anecdotal for sure, but this has never happened during his presidency. Me (?), I just grin and say, “Yeah, but he has done wonders for the gold stocks I told you to invest in 08. I think he is a genius.”

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  231. You conservatives just don’t get it.
    The liberals know better than you do…especially this Tlaloc person.
    That’s why this Tlaloc person takes federal assistance—he’s smarter than you !

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  232. Tlaloc’s presence ruins any thread he enters.

    Pious Agnostic (ac89e5)

  233. 209 – How much money do insurance companies make from portions of the premium they do not have to service?
    Aetna says zero about this gold mine tucked in the details.

    mg (31009b)

  234. I think Obama has scared most of you guys from commenting here.
    It has become a ghost town.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  235. 234. Tlaloc’s presence ruins any thread he enters.

    Comment by Pious Agnostic (ac89e5) — 10/29/2013 @ 5:03 pm

    Let me try and remedy that. More surf music this time from the “north coast.” The outlaw gassers of Ohio.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1a1I6gDnZs

    Ever seen a group of guys more in need of bro’surance?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  236. just for a smile…

    http://youtu.be/nkumhBVPGdg

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  237. That is his purpose, how else to defend Obamacare, which is the flagship of modern liberal/socialist’ strategy.

    Obamacare is beyond incompetent and the more one looks (and now the general public has no choice but to look), the more disgusting it becomes.

    The issue is in jeopardy of slipping away from the MSM and the useful idiots. Ruinous behavior is all they have left.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  238. and another…

    http://youtu.be/gDtqbS7DK2s

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  239. bobathome – Boners are important.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/29/2013 @ 11:07 am

    Yoda has heard that Speaker of the House lined up to do next round of advertisements, he has! Will be called, “Boehner’s Boners”!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  240. James Carville: “Just because you call something ‘health insurance’ doesn’t make it health insurance.”
    — Spin like the wind, baby!

    Icy (23896c)

  241. I think the first troll I ever met was a guy named Duane Gish, a “creation scientist” who was brought to my STEM college back in the 70’s to expose us to a contrary view. We listened to his presentation politely if a little restlessly, then has some pointed questions.

    One of Gish’s favorite things was to point out that there were gaps in the fossil records. Turned out that trying to fill a gap simply created two gaps they way he saw it. He demanded evidence then discounted all he got that did not fit his belief.

    Gish and Tlaloc have a lot in common, intellectually.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  242. Will be called, “Boehner’s Boners”!

    Every time I hear that name pronounced I think of the line from Buckaroo Banzai: “that’s Big boo TAY!”

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  243. 238. just for a smile…

    http://youtu.be/nkumhBVPGdg

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (fca37b) — 10/29/2013 @ 5:19 pm

    Just for a smile.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MDU5BU_qSJU

    Monster Smart

    Steve57 (022c57)

  244. Daley @ 49,

    I was laughing too hard to remotely think of throwing a shoe at you.

    “Boehner’s Boners”! This is what the nightmare of Obamacare has driven sane people to…

    Dana (6178d5)

  245. Tlaloc,

    There’s an anger inside of you that is probably unhealthy for you.
    At some point, you should probably admit that you desire other people to support you.
    Once you stand up and admit that, we will be able to move forward in conversation with you.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  246. I think I need a navigator or something.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9)

    #49… Sounds like his compass is pointing due north most of the time, lol.

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  247. 220. FICA goes into the General Fund. The ‘Special Issue’ securities in the Trust Fund are not salable. The Treasury tells the trustees how much they will be paid after the board makes their recommendations.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  248. People… people who need people…
    to support them are the wimpiest people in the world…

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  249. Colonel,

    You’re just making fun of Barbra Streisand because she’s a weirdo !

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  250. Dana, Oh I pretty much blew off daleyrocks’ concerns about the wimmins in his building having “needs” and his being able to fulfill them. How like a guy!! The “needs” they have prolly relate more to getting the light in their ceiling fan replaced or the case of wine carried from the elevator to their apartment door, or the patio power washed. You know, practical “needs” that require a whole different type of stamina but no blue pills.

    elissa (ed2492)

  251. A new meaning for “grandfathered”.

    nk (dbc370)

  252. Did someone abandon you along the way, Tlaloc? Is that what all this is about for you?

    Comment by elissa (ed2492) — 10/29/2013 @ 12:56 pm

    Dropped him on his head several times as a baby they did!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  253. Kevin M,

    Ah, the old “Gish Gallop.” I never heard it myself, but it’s much talked about in certain circles.

    Now I’ve lost my chance, because he died in the last year or so.

    So much must be clear to him now. Or not.

    Pious Agnostic (ac89e5)

  254. Folks, little trolly put it best:

    “…Actually I’m here to educate….”

    Very generous of this Brain Trust Member, huh?

    I’m kind of reminded of another troll, who when his lies caught up with him, left with this deathless statement:


    “I work here is done.”

    JD, which troll was that one? I honestly forget.

    Delicious.

    It’s just more Troof to Powder stuff. Boring.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  255. elissa,

    You are too dryly funny.
    In my mind, you are probably one of Hitchcock’s icy blonde princesses—but with the brains of Barbara Bel Geddes’ character in “Vertigo.”

    Or something !

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  256. #252… yes, Stones, she has an effect on me…

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  257. Just for a smile.

    Summer Cruise 2011 USS George H.W. Bush

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vG4HvEE1fo

    At about the 1:40 point the crew pays respect to the fact you don’t point the machine gun at the carrier. Ever.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  258. @257 Comment by Simon Jester (c8876d) — 10/29/2013 @ 6:01 pm

    IIRC, her name was truth and justice.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  259. Why Yes, E.S.! I do look almost exactly like Grace Kelly at age 24. Let’s go with that!

    elissa (ed2492)

  260. The “needs” they have prolly relate more to getting the light in their ceiling fan replaced or the case of wine carried from the elevator to their apartment door, or the patio power washed. You know, practical “needs” that require a whole different type of stamina but no blue pills.

    Prolly so, elissa… but I suspect somewhere in this world there is a whole line of adult entertainment with those very scenarios involved… all leading up to those other needs, hence the little blue pills become a necessity. For the givers of the world.

    Dana (6178d5)

  261. “…Actually I’m here to educate….”

    Those who educate best are those who are always willing to be open to learning because they are insatiably curious with an unquenchable thirst for learning and sharing that knowledge.

    At its core, always, is a deep humility that is the cornerstone. It’s what allows one to understand that they don’t know it all and can freely admit it, thus, learn.

    So, Tlaloc, no, that is not you.

    Dana (6178d5)

  262. He can’t be excused
    by saying he told lies when on
    His damn PERIOD.

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  263. “I work here is done.

    JD, which troll was that one? I honestly forget.

    Think that was Andrew, I do! Dumber than a sack of Andrews coined from that wasn’t it?

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  264. His Mendacity
    in all fifty seven states
    is second to none

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  265. … but I suspect somewhere in this world there is a whole line of adult entertainment with those very scenarios involved…

    Nah, too much plot Danna.

    Pons Asinorum (8ce71a)

  266. Barack Obama
    told lies cuz he knew the peeps
    clueless ’til too late

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  267. has there ever been
    a less accomplished fellow
    as our C-in-C ???

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  268. Burma Shave

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  269. Dems want a refund for ObamaCare website? America wants a re-do of November 2008 and 2012 elections. What a stinker!

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  270. Obama 2013 – Mendacity in Ten Cities Tour

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  271. elissa,

    Like Grace Kelly’s character in “Rear Window,” you are probably too modest, as well.
    *Sigh*

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  272. American peeps
    will come together next year
    F*ck me? No… F*ck You!

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  273. ES, she’s not only a stunningly chic Grace Kelly with a great dry wit, she’s also whip smart. Her comments are always meaty food for thought. She’s the whole package.

    Dana (6178d5)

  274. I have a dream…

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  275. I have been to the mountain…

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  276. of Obama’s bullsh*t. PERIOD.

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  277. Forgive me… I should have begged your indulgence…

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  278. #260… Damn your eyes, Steve57, you go all patriotic on my decadent ass…

    Colonel Haiku (fca37b)

  279. Coming is this. is to an Ibamacare Mandated Plan for you! Moochie approved! How else do you think they can require you to follow their edicts?
    Eat that cheeseburger or banana split, and up your premiums will go!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  280. Oops, Yoda adds one too many is’s, he does! Oh well, depends on what is meant by is, Yoda guesses!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  281. 281. #260… Damn your eyes, Steve57, you go all patriotic on my decadent ass…

    Comment by Colonel Haiku (fca37b) — 10/29/2013 @ 6:45 pm

    Don’t worry. I’ll just keep doing Obamacare until I need glasses. Not until I go blind.

    That helo squadron put together a great cruise video, doncha think?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  282. I do look almost exactly like Grace Kelly at age 24. Let’s go with that!
    Comment by elissa (ed2492) — 10/29/2013 @ 6:18 pm

    — MARRY ME!!!

    [Grace Kelly in “Rear Window” — most beautiful woman in a movie EVER! End of discussion.]

    Icy (23896c)

  283. Icy, nonsense, you philistine. Lauren Bacall in “To Have and Have Not”.

    SPQR (768505)

  284. Aww, Icy. Now you’re making me feel kinda bad about ly maybe having stretched the truth just a wee teensy bit.

    elissa (ed2492)

  285. For your viewing pleasure, comedy gold. Jake Tapper and Lil Tommy Xtopher in a twitter battle over Ocare.

    http://twitchy.com/2013/10/29/jake-tapper-on-obamacare-live-by-the-sales-pitch-die-by-the-sales-pitch/

    elissa (ed2492)

  286. Live the dream, Miss elissa!

    Icy (23896c)

  287. Close, but no Bogie cigarette, SPQR.

    Icy (23896c)

  288. Yes, it was, Steve.

    I’m still thinking on the legacy of Lou Reed and remembered his Streisand connection… “Anybody here watch the Academy Awards?… Barbra Streisand gets up there and starts talking about the ‘little people’… thanking all the ‘little people’… F*ck all the ‘little people’… and F*ck Barbra Streisand.”

    – Lou Reed

    Colonel Haiku (101cd9)

  289. “I was laughing too hard to remotely think of throwing a shoe at you.”

    Dana – I want no part of any war on teh wimminfolk.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  290. Dana #264: that was truly lovely. I try to teach the students that the three most important words in science are “I don’t know.”

    It’s funny. Students know when the professor BSs them, and the professor sure knows it when the student is BSing. Very symmetrical.

    What’s the quote that it isn’t what you don’t know that is dangerous, but what you think is true that is not?

    Very well said, ma’am. As usual.

    Simon Jester (4398d3)

  291. Er, Simon, I think Dana is a chap.

    Gazzer (bd560d)

  292. No that Dana with the description

    narciso (3fec35)

  293. Oops, my bad. Thanks for the correction.

    Gazzer (bd560d)

  294. Gazzer, I am no chap nor a Grace Kelly. Adjective laden Dana is a chap. For a long time he has always attempted to make the distinction to save confusion. I suspect he too is not a Grace Kelly either. :)

    Dana (6178d5)

  295. Well I’ve only been a regular on this site for 6 years or so: what do I know? No offense meant and I am sure none taken.

    Gazzer (bd560d)

  296. Don’t you just love the smell of Obamacare in the morning?

    navyvet (02dd07)

  297. I am no judge of male beauty, so I won’t comment on the 60-year old, male, concrete contractor from Pennsylvania’s looks. What do you think he’d look like?

    On the other hand, I have seen pictures of lady Dana from when she would link her photoblog and she is not Grace Kelly in that she is not blonde. Otherwise she would compare fine, just fine.

    nk (dbc370)

  298. An aside: I live in an extremely liberal area of CA, and for the first time my liberal friends and acquaintances are PO’ed with Obamacare…. About half have openly said they regret voting for Mr. Obama. A few now mock him. Anecdotal for sure, but this has never happened during his presidency.

    I should hope so. If not, then that means the populace of the US runs the risk of becoming more leftwing than that of even the people of France, and, possibly, even the people of Argentina too (ie, as with Obama, the diabolical Cristina Kirchner triggers far more sympathy — ie, 44% popularity — than she deserves).

    rt.com, October 29, 2013: Francois Hollande has taken the spot of the most unpopular French president on record, according to an opinion poll. The main complaints about the leader include tax hikes, unemployment and immigration policy.

    Hollande’s approval rating dropped to 26 percent of those surveyed in October, a BVA poll revealed, which is the lowest level in the 32 years the survey has been conducted. The Socialist leader’s popularity began to sink soon after elections in May 2012. “Never in 32 years of the survey, has a president fallen below 30 percent,” Deputy Director General of the Institute Gael Sliman told Le Monde.

    [One] reason for the loss of popularity is tax hikes. Heavy criticism forced the French government to abandon plans to increase taxes on popular saving programmes on Sunday, which were set to raise 600 million euros ($830 million) in revenues. Holland has announced a total of about 3 billion euros ($4.1 billion) in tax increases for next year, forcing many to protest the measures.

    Another major source of public anger is skyrocketing unemployment, the worst in years, with 3.2 million French people now looking for work.

    theguardian.com, October 28: The political vultures are circling in Argentina after President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner suffered a setback in midterm polls that sharply diminishes her prospects of standing for a third term.

    In Sunday’s poll support for the ruling Front for Victory party plunged to 33%, down from 54% when Fernández won her second term in 2011. Some of the biggest losses were in the most important districts, such as Santa Fe, Cordoba and Mendoza. In Buenos Aires, home to more than one in three voters, Fernández’s chosen candidate was crushed by more than 12 percentage points.

    The desire for change has focused on the economy, crime, and growing concern about corruption. Although GDP has grown at about 3% this year, public concerns have focused on high inflation, estimated to be two to three times higher than the official rate of 10%, and foreign exchange controls that have created a black market for dollars at twice the government’s formal rate.

    Fernández also remains easily the most recognized politician in the country. Since her surgery, polls suggest the president’s popularity has improved and now stands at about 44%.

    Mark (58ea35)

  299. Don’t you just love the smell of Obamacare in the morning?

    Comment by navyvet (02dd07) — 10/29/2013 @ 9:07 pm

    Yoda likes not the smell of bantha poodoo!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  300. Patricia

    They can probably reassign my gender… but I’m pretty sure even a turkey baster has standards too high for the whole pregnancy thing… but nice to know the genius Sebelius Obama Pelosi troika is looking out for me

    steveg (794291)

  301. tlaloc #67

    What about the policies the holders made minor changes to without knowing the long term reprecussions?

    steveg (794291)

  302. Speaking of “Missing”, Where are those 400 missiles from Benghazi?

    mg (31009b)

  303. Cripes, they can’t even just swear in a witness without making a prepared statement in a congressional hearing. We are truly f#cked!

    My prediction: NOTHING will be revealed. No pertinent questions will be asked. AND, no relevant followup questions will be posed.

    Huitzilincuatec (f7d5ba)

  304. Brilliant! Questions in the hearing are reduced to 4 minutes. Why even bother?

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  305. 306. 307. Comment by Huitzilincuatec (f7d5ba) — 10/30/2013 @ 6:16 am <blockquote they can’t even just swear in a witness without making a prepared statement in a congressional hearing. Comment by Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba) — 10/30/2013 @ 6:24 am

    Questions in the hearing are reduced to 4 minutes. Why even bother?

    You just discovered America, or something like that?

    That’s the way it always is. And is no good. It’s a little bit better in the Senate, where I think each senator gets 10 or 15 minutes. Sometimes they havea counsel ask a lot of questions, but it really should be the members. You’d get more variety.

    And in oversight hearings, half, if not more, of the member may be just defending the Administration and asking rhetorical softball questions,

    I think they do get the opportunity too ask written questions.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  306. Spending the majority of your time recognizing Sec. Sebelius’s father or referencing the Wizard of Oz is pointless.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  307. Mark @301.

    For thse who confuse crime with race – the population of Argentina is almost all white – very little Indian or black. The only thing is they speak Spanish there.

    Argentinia had a large European immigration in the Twentieth Century till about 1931, a lot of it from Spain and Italy, but hardly all.

    Argentina has gone really downhill since 1931. It used to be just about on a level with western Europe.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  308. And that was around the time, the Colonels displaced Yrigoyen’s regime, which was generally classically liberal, Peron was the most extreme example of this.

    narciso (342f74)

  309. Is it any wonder why Americans tune congressional hearings out? 30 minutes in and not a single relevant question asked. Nothing about the contract with CGI’s execution of said contract.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (f7d5ba)

  310. 311. Comment by narciso (342f74) — 10/30/2013 @ 6:48 am

    And that was around the time, the Colonels displaced Yrigoyen’s regime, which was generally classically liberal..

    That’s exactly what I was talking about.

    Immigration was also cut off at about that time, as part fo a worldwide trend, that had really intensified during and after World War I.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  311. 264. Nice distillation, whatever you look like.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  312. Like waiting to testify was ever going to help:

    http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/29/news/economy/obamacare-site-outage/index.html?iid=Lead

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  313. Leech porn for feets:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/28/food-stamps-will-get-cut-by-5-billion-this-week-and-more-cuts-could-follow/

    Well with the Recovery the need was expected to evaporate.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  314. The drawbacks with respect to CA for IL governments:

    1) There are double the number of neighboring states, and none with deserts.

    2) The coast line is far smaller.

    3) There are no foreign borders.

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2013/10/illinois-teachers-retirement-fund-is-40.html

    On the plus side, Chicago government has 5 days of expenses on hand in cash.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  315. 151. Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/29/2013 @ 1:26 pm

    was unfair that rich people could pay for more health care than poor people. </i.

    As Rush Limbaugh (more or less) omce daid, there are always going to be people who will get better health care than others.

    And if having money would not enable people to do so, then connections would (that's how it works with pblic schools, right? SF)

    [And there'd be fewer people who would have an ability to benefit themselves – SF]

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  316. Sammy – Here is some actual information relation to evil insurance companies rescinding policies rather than the anecdotal information the left was hyperventilating about:

    Between 2004 and 2008, insurers rescinded 1,464 health policies or certificates based on conditions that were not diagnosed before the insureds applied for coverage.

    The Regulatory Framework Task Force at the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, Kansas City, Mo., has published that figure in a draft summary of results from a recent rescission data call.

    The task force sent the data call in October to 52 companies that wrote individual major medical policies or individually underwritten certificates from 2004 to 2008. The 46 companies that responded covered about 70% of the people covered by individual major medical policies during the period studied.

    The task force ended up exempting 3 companies that did not write the kind of coverage subject to the study, and one state decided not to participate, because its companies had already responded to a similar survey conducted by Rep. Henry Calif, D-Calif., in October 2008.

    The insurers that did participate said they had rescinded 27,246 of 6.7 million health policies issued during the period study, which translated into a rescission rate of about 3.7 rescissions for every 1,000 policies or certificates written, task force officials report.

    http://www.lifehealthpro.com/2009/12/07/naic-releases-health-policy-rescission-data-draft

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  317. Sammy – More info on policy rescissions, this time from a July 29, 2009 letter from Rep. Stupak and Rep. Walden.

    While we believe that these reforms would be helpful, state regulators are not waiting for federal action to address this
    issue. In response to news reports of rescissions abuses and to inquiries from the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, the NAIC examined Insurance Department
    complaint data from all 50 states and the District of Columbia to determine the scope of the problem. (See attachment 1) The data showed few complaints from consumers
    dealing with rescissions, with 56 confirmed complaints related to rescissions and post-claims underwriting in 2007 out of nearly 78,000 total complaints regarding accident and health insurance policies.
    Of course, given the particularly harmful nature of rescissions, state regulators recognize that even one confirmed case of abuse is too many. For this reason, the NAIC began moving forward with initiatives to promote
    state efforts to enhance consumer protections.

    http://www.naic.org/documents/testimony_0907_rescissions_sevigny_vaughan_praeger_ario.pdf

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  318. Actual numbers are racist, daleyrocks. They prefer to leave the idea out there that this happens willy nilly and all the time. It never was the case.

    JD (5c1832)

  319. 321, 322. The really neat thing about “spreading the wealth around” is perfectly exemplified by 404Care in 2015.

    No one will benefit, but the upper middle class constituency of the Old White Party is hurt the most.

    The poor, formerly uninsured, have insurance but no one will see them.

    The lower middle class will not be able to afford insurance even if working full time.

    The middle-middle class are now lower because they have children and 12% of their income has vanished.

    The upper middle class are paying for the program.

    The lower midd

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  320. JD – Bonus mendoucheity of Sebelius testimony this a.m. pointing out that individual market policies had medical underwriting and were only one-year policies.

    She thinks people are stupid. Group or employer policies are also medically underwritten, but based on the claims history and demographics of the employee population. Ten years ago, not many insurers were willing to write more than one year contracts either. Don’t know if that has changed with economy and hiring flat.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  321. I dont know if she thinks people are stupid as much as I think she is the type that a little knowledge of the topic makes her dangerous. For someone that was an Insurance Commissioner, Governor, and now in charge of the failed exchanges, her displayed understanding of insurance basics is 2 miles wide and 1 millimeter derp. Absent that, she is extraordinarily mendoucheous and dishonest.

    JD (5c1832)

  322. JD – I met her several times years ago and she just struck me as an odd duck.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  323. If an insurance company illegally kicks you out via ‘recission’ as they call it, you call your state’s insurance commissioner and start complaining. The Insurance Commissioner has many powers he can use against an insurance company who is engaging in bad actions.

    What happens when the insurance company IS the government? Who do you call to punish them?

    luagha (5cbe06)

  324. “What happens when the insurance company IS the government? Who do you call to punish them?”

    luagha – Nobody. They tell you to get over it.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)


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