Patterico's Pontifications

10/27/2013

“I was all for Obamacare until I found out I was paying for it”

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 5:23 pm

L.A. Times — yes, that’s right. L.A. Times:

Thousands of Californians are discovering what Obamacare will cost them — and many don’t like what they see.

These middle-class consumers are staring at hefty increases on their insurance bills as the overhaul remakes the healthcare market. Their rates are rising in large part to help offset the higher costs of covering sicker, poorer people who have been shut out of the system for years.

Although recent criticism of the healthcare law has focused on website glitches and early enrollment snags, experts say sharp price increases for individual policies have the greatest potential to erode public support for President Obama’s signature legislation.

Here’s a representative example:

Fullerton resident Jennifer Harris thought she had a great deal, paying $98 a month for an individual plan through Health Net Inc. She got a rude surprise this month when the company said it would cancel her policy at the end of this year. Her current plan does not conform with the new federal rules, which require more generous levels of coverage.

Now Harris, a self-employed lawyer, must shop for replacement insurance. The cheapest plan she has found will cost her $238 a month. She and her husband don’t qualify for federal premium subsidies because they earn too much money, about $80,000 a year combined.

“It doesn’t seem right to make the middle class pay so much more in order to give health insurance to everybody else,” said Harris, who is three months pregnant. “This increase is simply not affordable.”

Ms. Harris. They call it the “Affordable Care Act.” And you’re trying to suggest it’s not affordable? Are you calling the Democrats who named this bill and passed it . . . liars?

Remember: if you like your health care plan, Ms. Harris, you can keep it. It will just be more expensive, with a higher deductible. But don’t worry! That’s because the federal government is deciding what has to be in your plan, and your new plan is chock-full of neato new benefits! None of which you are actually going to need, but that’s not the point, Ms. Harris . . .

But this is my favorite part:

[M]iddle-income consumers face an estimated 30% rate increase, on average, in California due to several factors tied to the healthcare law.

Some may elect to go without coverage if they feel prices are too high. Penalties for opting out are very small initially. Defections could cause rates to skyrocket if a diverse mix of people don’t sign up for health insurance.

Pam Kehaly, president of Anthem Blue Cross in California, said she received a recent letter from a young woman complaining about a 50% rate hike related to the healthcare law.

“She said, ‘I was all for Obamacare until I found out I was paying for it,’” Kehaly said.

Yeah. Well, that’s kinda how it works with a lot of government programs, my anonymous friend.

PATTERICO MOUNTS SOAPBOX — GINGERLY, OF COURSE, AS HE IS IN FACT GETTING OLDER: This is one of the reasons I’d like to see withholding ended. I argued for this in January 2004 (wow, saying that makes me feel a little old, just like mounting this soapbox did):

You want the cure for big government?

No more withholding.

As it is, people don’t feel as though the money that is being withheld is really theirs. It’s like they never got it in the first place — because they didn’t.

Under my regime, it wouldn’t be that way.

Under my regime, every pay period you would personally set aside the amount of money you will need to save up for the eventual tax bill. Come April 15, you would take out your checkbook and write a huge check to the federal government — for thousands upon thousands upon thousands of dollars.

You think you might start thinking twice about what they’re doing with your money then?

Today, I would add one other suggestion: a requirement that the government send taxpayers an itemized bill showing the breakdown of what they owe and what the money is going for.

After all, generally we decide whether a good or service is “worth it” when we fork over the money. If the money comes pre-forked, and we’re never told how much we are paying for what, how can we make an informed decision about value? At that point, the government service feels like it’s free, even though, on an intellectual level, we know it isn’t. “I supported [insert name of government program or agency here] until I found out how much I was paying for it” would be a very common phrase — if we sent out itemized bills and did away with withholding.

The downside, of course, is that we would probably collect a lot less in taxes. The upside? The People would demand that we spend a lot less.

On balance, I think it would be better.

People are generally “all for” more government services until they find out they are paying for them.

225 Responses to ““I was all for Obamacare until I found out I was paying for it””

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (9c670f)

  2. Obamacare is policy designed by and for people who can’t do math.

    SPQR (768505)

  3. It’s going to be interesting to see how this all ends.

    elissa (ed2492)

  4. Elissa, the Democrats burned up all their political capital in getting it passed and in violent rhetoric against GOP. They have nothing left to spend on repairing their failures.

    SPQR (768505)

  5. t that point, the government service feels like it’s free, even though, on an intellectual level, we know it isn’t.

    I don’t know if that’s entirely true. I know people who don’t seem to connect their tax refund to the fact that money was taken out of their income. Almost like they don’t know where that money is coming from, they just know the check says US Treasury. They treat it as if they made x from their jobs and then got y from the government.

    I can’t explain why some people arrange things so they get as large a refund check as possible (I don’t make interest free loans to the gub’mint so I cut a check). But even though I can’t explain their attitudes toward what really is their own money, I think the fact that some people have that attitude does tell us something about why we’re in the predicament we’re in.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  6. You left the really nasty part out: not only do you pay for said benefits, but you do not, as a rule, get to use them!

    Dianna (f12db5)

  7. Does your soapbox conform with all the disability acts?

    Is there a qualified access ramp or handrail?

    EPWJ (c3dbb4)

  8. hey let’s bomb syria

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  9. We used to get an itemized bill. It was called a budget.

    Stephen Macklin (fac283)

  10. I’m all in favor of the “no more withholding” idea, with one caveat: enough people are completely unable to plan ahead that they will arrive at April 15th with no money in the bank to back that huge check they have to write.

    To at least remind them of the huge upcoming check, it would be a good idea for every paycheck they get to include a notice saying “Of this paycheck of $X, you should put aside about $Y for next year’s taxes.” Where $Y = the amount that would have been withheld under the current system. There would still be plenty of people who fail to put aside enough for their taxes, but at least they wouldn’t have an excuse to whine about “But I didn’t knooooooooow!!!”

    Robin Munn (943082)

  11. 80k a year is what a lawyer PLUS a spouse is pulling down

    and is an HHI of 80K in Fullerton actually “middle class” you think?

    that whole thing there is just weird

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  12. this Pam Kehaly is just begging for an IRS audit

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  13. happyfeet, attorneys average less than you would guess.

    SPQR (768505)

  14. That soapbox had better have handrails and safety straps… I try to avoid high places since I recall then Gov. Reagan telling Californians that they should not have withholding of the state income taxes as it masked the cost of government. He said that taxes should hurt and writing a check every April would handle that nicely. He lost that battle with the CA legislature.

    Yes, I’m that old.

    gramps, the original (46c9f9)

  15. SPQR–a bunch of us talked about this over dinner and drinks tonight. None of us could come up with a single situation in American political history that compares to this. It really boggles the mind what a unmitigated`catastrophe (self imposed totally by the left) Obamacare is for our country.

    elissa (ed2492)

  16. Switch tax day to Oct. 15.
    April to November, people can forget, be distracted by ads, and more.
    2-3 weeks, and the cost will be fresh in their minds.

    Add in eliminating all taxes, tariffs, fees, imposts, and whatever EXCEPT for an income tax, and the full cost will always be apparent, instead of lost in bits and pieces attached to other bills paid monthly or daily.

    Sam (9bf4c3)

  17. To use a common term over at Ace’s place, Ms. Kehaly and others got “dorked in the squeakhole” when they backed Obama and the donks in passing Obamacare.

    HMCS(FMF) ret (ff5655)

  18. All the schadenfreude in the world doesn’t make the problem go away.

    elissa (ed2492)

  19. I’m all for renewable energy and clean air as long as it doesn’t increase the cost of gas or electricity, I don’t have to pay for it and they don’t build any of those freaking ugly bird killing wind turbines any place I can see them.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  20. elissa, but if we don’t let it burn, Democrats will try to bandaid it into a slow motion trainwreck. Let. It. Burn.

    SPQR (768505)

  21. Agree with the no withholding idea. It’s very smart.
    I’d also like to hear some dem explain how Obamacare can work, when it absolutely requires that the young and healthy sign up, but also provides that those same young and healthy can stay on their parents’ plan until they are 26?!

    LASue (8a0de1)

  22. 13.happyfeet, attorneys average less than you would guess.

    Comment by SPQR (768505) — 10/27/2013 @ 6:01 pm

    I’m imagining that’s even for the case these days for young (if $98/month under her old healthcare insurance plan is a clue) “self-employed” attorneys in this Obamaconomy.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  23. Honestly, it’s like we’re going back to leeches and bleeding, renewable energy didn’t meet our need three centuries ago, that’s why we had the Industrial Revolution, and the rest of this system is blinkered as well,

    narciso (3fec35)

  24. R.I.P. Lou Reed

    [thanks to Colonel Haiku for mentioning it first in the other thread; I was drowning my sorrows as my Dolphins were busily inventing a new definition for "choke".]

    Icy (4e788a)

  25. At the end of every year, the government should send out a form to all taxpayers, stating how much they had to pay and asking them whether they would like to pay more or less the next year. Some number of checkboxes between +10% and -10%. The weighted (by amount paid) average would be the income tax change for the next year.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  26. BTW, there are more options for self-employed people to get their modified AGI down without actually making less. They might be better off getting a more expensive plan since they write off the entire amount from the MAGI, and this might allow a subsidy.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  27. hey let’s bomb syria

    As plans go, that’s better than a lot out of this admin.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  28. 10. …enough people are completely unable to plan ahead that they will arrive at April 15th with no money in the bank to back that huge check they have to write.

    Comment by Robin Munn (943082) — 10/27/2013 @ 5:53 pm

    These are some of the people I was talking about back in #5. They consider their refund like a savings account they otherwise wouldn’t have. I never understood that; it’s like admitting you can’t manage your own money and you need Uncle Sugar to do it for you.

    What I couldn’t understand even more are the people who really seem to be under the impression that their refund is something like a gift. Almost as if they had nothing to do with it.

    Still, as I said, even though I don’t quite understand the phenomena I think it says something about how we got to this point.

    For the first group at least I think the fact they couldn’t write the check would be something that would happen once.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  29. 27. hey let’s bomb syria

    As plans go, that’s better than a lot out of this admin.

    Comment by Kevin M (bf8ad7) — 10/27/2013 @ 7:09 pm

    That would explain why they didn’t follow through on it. It was one of their brighter ideas.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  30. I’m all in favor of the “no more withholding” idea, with one caveat: enough people are completely unable to plan ahead that they will arrive at April 15th with no money in the bank to back that huge check they have to write.

    Withholding allowed them to apply income tax to the middle class. Without it only the well-off could be expected to comply. Is that a bug or a feature?

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  31. 21. …I’d also like to hear some dem explain how Obamacare can work…

    Comment by LASue (8a0de1) — 10/27/2013 @ 6:35 pm

    I’d like to hear them explain how you can increase demand for something by “giving” 30 million more people access to it. Then without adding a single doctor, hospital, or other health service provider to the system claim that costs will go down and access to those services will improve.

    It promises to be amusing.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  32. Good post, per usual.

    Why indeed have we just acquiesced all these years, letting the government use our money for and average of six months before allowing that yeah they owe us, less interest?

    Why aren’t we notified SF Nan picked up a bottle of Anisette on our tab at the Reagan Airport?

    Who are these people that they must become ridiculously wealthy and supremely powerful at our expense “getting things done in DC”?

    All they ever do is ‘fix’ what they effed up last term.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  33. the Democrats burned up all their political capital in getting it passed and in violent rhetoric against GOP. They have nothing left to spend on repairing their failures.

    Clearly you didn’t watch Donna Brazile and Howard Dean this morning on Stephanopolis, SPQR. There was no capital spent, no violent rhetoric, nothing because the public wanted this. And certainly, there are no failures whatsoever – including the websites. They are in strident denial and will remain so. Because that denial has become their reality.

    Dana (6178d5)

  34. @28– It’s worse than that. Those who think the refund is some kind of “funds from Heaven” (like manna). When asked about how much they paid in income tax they will respond that they did not pay any taxes, that they actually got money back. They fail to understand that the difference between the amount withheld and the refund they got is their money. If pressed, they cannot say what that amount was. There is no help for these people, and yet they vote.

    gramps, the original (46c9f9)

  35. “It doesn’t seem right to make the middle class pay so much more in order to give health insurance to everybody else,” said Harris, who is three months pregnant. “This increase is simply not affordable.”

    Stupid dumbfuck liberal twit.

    Who the FUCK did you think was going to eat the cost of this you dimwitted simpleton???

    Smock Puppet, Gadfy, Racist-Sexist Thug, and Bon Vivant All In One Package (fc9290)

  36. 33. I have to reluctantly concur, the enemy is not tapping out.

    I spent today at an in-law family function. Nothing has changed except the progs basically think they’ve got the Thugs in a sleeper hold and the TEAs are about to be disqualified.

    A lot of retireds an academics among them but those on private insurance, also Obots, were mum, not a political comment among them.

    Certainly, at least the professional among them has seen their rate double, but the independent business operator can hardly be better off.

    The peer pressure on the Left is withering.

    There’s a non-zero chance Amerikkka will eat 404care and move on.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  37. attorneys average less than you would guess

    I’m not getting all the memos

    happyfeet (8ce051)

  38. I think many of us have repeatedly underestimated President Obama’s ability to somehow get away with all he gets away with.

    Over at PowerLine they pointed out that Ms. Harris thought it was just fine and dandy to take other people’s money to pay for someone else’s insurance, as long as she wasn’t the one having money taken away.

    How does a 61 year old man get charged for maternity coverage? Does that mean the cumulative expected maternity charges get spread over everybody, regardless of their ability to get pregnant?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  39. All those self-righteous liberals who said they would be happy to pay higher taxes…..well they could have voluntarily done so any time they wanted but never did.

    Talk is cheap until it hits you in the wallet personally.

    If your schadenboner lasts more than four hours, consult a physician.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  40. Never fear, these “outraged” middle class peops quoted in the LA Times article will find some convoluted way of thinking to vote Democrat again, and again, and again.

    jb (67f78a)

  41. I see the latest provocative poster in support of Obamacare making the rounds, is:

    Republicans are not afraid that Obamacare will fail; they are afraid it will succeed.

    Okay, then.

    Dana (6178d5)

  42. Rubes. Self-identifying. With apologies to instapundit.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  43. This might constitute change: CBS seems to think having viewers beats managing the decline:

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/10/60-minutes-confirms-benghazi-is-a-real-scandal-and-youve-been-lied-to/

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  44. When the idiots on the left realize that govt. controlled abc, cbs, nbc, cnn did nothing to warn them about this disaster, perhaps then, they might listen to Mr. Cruz.

    mg (31009b)

  45. On a related topic, 60 Minutes committed journalism tonight.

    I think that Yglesias said there was nothing to see here.

    It’s rubes all the way down and CBS is looking for a way out.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  46. The tweets from 60 Minutes (at the L.I. link) are devastating. It took them a year to do their investigation.

    If this gets the airplay it deserves and the rest of the MSM actually has the stones to report and investigate, etc, how do you think it will impact a potential presidential run by Hillary? Is her team scurrying around in a desperate attempt to quash and quiet? Are the Emily Listers on their fainting couches clutching their smelling salts as we speak?

    Dana (6178d5)

  47. If the local affiliates don’t cover it, did it really happen?

    mg (31009b)

  48. Hillary will be the next President. It is already decided. Have you seen Joe Biden lately?

    People just vote on the latest thing they hear.

    Romney put a dog in a kennel on his roof 20 or so years ago and worked for Bain Capital.

    The guy in charge of fixing Obamacare worked for Bain Capital. Apparently his dogs never had to suffer going on vacation with his family.

    The only thing that matters is the President had nothing to do with anything except killing Osama.

    He’s too busy fighting for the middle-class.

    Hillary, of course, is on her national award-winning tour.

    And all the people who really, really love this country can’t find the time to vote.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  49. Prices will necessarily skyrocket – energy, insurance………

    Under Obama it’s all good and evil Republicans are responsible.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  50. It’s been a bad week for Obama: ObamaCare, Merkel, Iran, and now the 60 Minutes’ story on Benghazi. Apparently it’s so bad he felt he had to go to church for the first time in 7 months.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  51. #31
    Steve

    They are shifting from claiming costs will come down…
    The LA Times revisits their go to leftist health policy guy:
    “This is when the actual sticker shock comes into play for people,” said Gerald Kominski, director of the UCLA Center for Health Policy Research. “There are winners and losers under the Affordable Care Act.”

    Ah.
    Sucks to be a loser. Good thing the unions got that waiver so the burden of bearing costs could be spread thinner.

    I’m a loser too, but at least I didn’t vote for Obama and then become shocked that he lied AND I have to pay more for my human right to healthcare.

    steveg (794291)

  52. Lara Logan did the report. I think her credibility will give this more weight than if it had been someone not so well known, and not so admired. Devastating portion below,

    We have learned there were two Delta Force operators who fought at the Annex and they’ve since been awarded the Distinguished Service Cross and the Navy Cross — two of the military’s highest honors. The Americans who rushed to help that night went without asking for permission and the lingering question is why no larger military response ever crossed the border into Libya — something Greg Hicks realized wasn’t going to happen just an hour into the attack.

    Lara Logan: You have this conversation with the defense attache. You ask him what military assets are on their way. And he says–

    Greg Hicks: Effectively, they’re not. And I — for a moment, I just felt lost. I just couldn’t believe the answer. And then I made the call to the Annex chief, and I told him, “Listen, you’ve gotta tell those guys there may not be any help coming.”

    Lara Logan: That’s a tough thing to understand. Why?

    Greg Hicks: It just is. We — for us, for the people that go out onto the edge, to represent our country, we believe that if we get in trouble, they’re coming to get us. That our back is covered. To hear that it’s not, it’s a terrible, terrible experience.

    Dana (6178d5)

  53. Then there’s the Fed:

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2013/10/new-tools-more-pure-bank-profit.html

    $1 Trillion is just the money created in purchased Treasuries and MBS. They also pay the banks 0.25% on the graphed $2.25 Trillion in excess reserves.

    And they loan banks the world over hundreds of $Billons every year.

    So basically 10% of GDP is newly printed money. And now they bring in reverse-repos to reduce their reliance on Treasuries and make clients beside just banks happy.

    Why buy my mortgage? Why not just give me the deed free and clear? Wouldn’t that be even better for the economy?

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  54. I think CBS is running this against football in order to get the whole thing out of the way to help Cankles. It will the old “this is old news and already covered by 60 minutes. Nothing to see here ploy”.
    As usual

    Gazzer (a55a11)

  55. 50. They are shifting from claiming costs will come down…

    Comment by steveg (794291) — 10/27/2013 @ 8:55 pm

    Yes, that was just the lie du jour back in 2010 when they needed to get the thing passed.

    Now the catchphrase is “more generous coverage.” As in, “it may be more expensive, but it’s more generous.”

    WTH? What’s “more generous” about making a 61 year old man pay for maternity care? There is nothing generous about making someone pay for something they’ll never use simply to subsidize someone else.

    Really, that’s “more despicable” than generous.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  56. Four dead in Ohio launched an insurrection of left-wingers that we still suffer from today.

    Four dead in Benghazi has launched a collective yawn.

    Good God, ya’ll. As long as the guy in charge is on your side, everything is good.

    Ag80 (eb6ffa)

  57. The media needs to be aborted.

    mg (31009b)

  58. I agree with your end to tax withholding, but I would go one step further.

    I would adjust the fiscal year so that the tax was due the first week of November, and the day before the election on election years.

    gahrie (a05ed4)

  59. What I couldn’t understand even more are the people who really seem to be under the impression that their refund is something like a gift. Almost as if they had nothing to do with it.

    For many of them it is. Because of various credits etc, it is entirely possible to not only pay no taxes, but to instead get a “refund” of money you never paid. I believe about 40% of “taxpayers” are in this category.

    gahrie (a05ed4)

  60. When all the ObamaCare stuff starts to get even worse — and it’s bound to get even worse — it would be a public service to round-up all the newspaper editorials from 2009-10 which supported the government taking control of our nation’s health care system. Remind the dumb lefty editorial boards that they were gung-ho for this fiasco, even when our side was warning about these very problems.

    JVW (709bc7)

  61. It’s been a bad week for Obama: ObamaCare, Merkel, Iran, and now the 60 Minutes’ story on Benghazi. Apparently it’s so bad he felt he had to go to church for the first time in 7 months.

    DRJ, did he do the Clinton trick of conspicuously tucking his Bible under his arm as he entered the church?

    JVW (709bc7)

  62. Why buy my mortgage? Why not just give me the deed free and clear? Wouldn’t that be even better for the economy?

    In 2008 they could have bought down all the single-family mortgages by, say 10%, making the mortgage-backed securities market strong enough to muddle on without collapsing as it did.

    The money would have gone to the same banks — as loan repayments — and provided the same liquidity. It just would have helped real people instead of jus the crooked bankers. They could have got it back by repealing the bap gains exclusion on house sales.

    But instead of treating the cause, with the leverage working FOR you, they treated the back end symptoms and had all that leverage on the loss side. OF course, that would have required the folks in the capital to care a whit about the peasants in the provinces.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  63. Mitt did try to warn us. It saddens me to think where we could be now had he won.

    Gazzer (a55a11)

  64. *Cap gains

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  65. Gazzer,

    For all people dump on Mitt’s inability to close the deal, he was probably the best qualified candidate we’ve run since Reagan. And, no he wasn’t my first choice either. But he was my second.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  66. JVW – you mean like this one, from Ezra Boywunderkind Klein?

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/to_repeat_the_cbo_found_that_p.html

    JD (5c1832)

  67. Agreed, Kevin. I have opined that he may have been the most scrupulously honest president, quite possibly, ever. I don’t think that’s too much of an exaggeration.

    Gazzer (a55a11)

  68. red seewun ‏@redc1c4 18 Oct
    @CoveredCA it only took your web page seconds to tell me to apply for Medicaid.Thats not HealthCare, its a death sentence #fail #tcot #tgdn

    Covered California Verified account ‏@CoveredCA
    @redc1c4 You can opt-out of Medi-Cal to choose another plan, but you won’t be eligible for premium assistance if you do. We hope this helps.

    is this a great plan or what?

    redc1c4 (abd49e)

  69. JVW – you mean like this one, from Ezra Boywunderkind Klein?

    JD, that should be thrown back in Klein’s face every time he opens his pie-hole or sets his fingers to his keyboard in defense of ObamaCare. Kind of like the “no weapons of mass destruction were found!” cries from our friends on the left.

    JVW (709bc7)

  70. Regarding the Ezra Klein WaPo piece that JD linked to, here is what the very first commenter had to say about it:

    Ezra, And what do you say to the 4 in 10 people in the indvidual market that will not receive subsidies? Don’t tell them that their premiums aren’t going to be higher. They are becasue they are going to be forced to buy a more generous plan, even if they don’t want one. There are a LOT of self-employed individuals out there that earn more than 3x or 4x poverty, and a lot of them would like to have catostraphic insurance policies ONLY. This bill eliminates that possibilty and the Dems once again stifle entrprenurship, risk-taking and innovation in this country.

    Posted by: truth5 | December 1, 2009 12:33 PM | Report abuse

    Wow, talk about prescience. Only thing this commenter missed was that even some people who qualify for subsidies will find their premium increase outstrips their subsidy.

    JVW (709bc7)

  71. I have opined that he may have been the most scrupulously honest president

    He at least wouldn’t have been the ridiculously disreputable character that currently occupies the White House.

    It wasn’t that long ago when I would have predicted that a person along the lines of Obama didn’t have a chance in hell of becoming president. That a majority of Americans had enough good sense to pick candidates who at least didn’t violate minimum standards. Wrong! So Obama really is bad fiction come to life. In that regards, he and this nation are sort of depicted metaphorically in this episode of a TV show from long ago.

    Mark (58ea35)

  72. “Pre-forked” heh. Yeah, the country’s been pretty forked for the last 5 or so years.

    mer (2d74b6)

  73. A real laugher here …

    So it’s not only true that most Americans will see their premiums go down, but it’s also true that most Americans will see their premiums go down even if you account for the better insurance plans they’ll be purchasing.

    Delusion of the masses and funny enough many Conservatives knew it was a lie and were painted as Haters or whatever.

    Rodney King's Spirit (5c6cbf)

  74. Ezra from his blog post lying about Obamacare.

    Rodney King's Spirit (5c6cbf)

  75. Taking the no withholding concept one step further, “Tax Day” would be the first Monday in November, the day before any elections.

    Horatio (877ea0)

  76. They’re making the case for Obama to unilaterally rewrite the law to fix these problems for the public good. He gets more than a line item veto – he gets a line item edit.

    Congress is still needed not to write laws but to provide the executive with a minimum semblance of legitimacy.

    Now all the remaining few in opposition in congress can do is continually use words such as illegitimate, usurpation, lawless, and tyrannical. They still have a small platform. Let’s see it vigorously used while it lasts.

    Amphipolis (d3e04f)

  77. It could be argued that our host’s proposal simply wouldn’t work; far too many people wouldn’t be able to save up enough to pay their taxes. But, given the way our government spending is completely out of control, I’d say that it’s difficult to argue that our current system of withholding works either.

    Perhaps some form of system such as quarterly filing for everybody might help?

    The taxpayer Dana (3e4784)

  78. Should we be surprised?

    Can anyone point to the part of the law that regulates how much doctors can charge their patients? (Such as $10 for a doctor visit, $100 for a CAT scan, $1000 for chemotherapy, and $10,000 for a coronary bypass.)

    Michael Ejercito (b371e1)

  79. I have not seen anyone address the out-of-network angle of 404care:

    http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=3292934

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  80. So you’re being forced to pay for other people? Like a slave?

    No shit.

    CrustyB (5a646c)

  81. Isn’t it interesting that any work, discussion or monies paid by Cabinet or Czar level employees are ‘protected’ and excluded from public view whereas anything communicated anywhere by anyone else in the world is fair game.

    The POTUS doesn’t even have to be aware we can do that.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  82. Maybe a compromise would be for the income tax to go into an escrow account, so the taxpayer would see actually how much of their money goes to the feds, while not getting into trouble for not paying their taxes.

    Comment by Amphipolis (d3e04f) — 10/28/2013 @ 6:39 am
    Indeed, he keeps overstepping the boundaries just waiting/daring for someone to try to stop him.
    I wonder if Vegas is starting to make odds on whether or not he will try to run again.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  83. It may also be a good idea to talk directly to the doctors. I had heard mixed reviews from doctors in the trenches with most having a dim view of the law. However a doctor did a fantastic video about what will happen to health care professionals and it is quite alarming http://obamacareaca.com/videos/

    Jeff (d7b56b)

  84. Just two things. The woman you said could keep her policy was told by her insurer that they were going to cancel her policy. How do you come to the conclusion that she can keep it?

    Second, anybody can stop withholding. All they need to do is to give their payroll department a signed, dated and notarized statement saying that they do not give permission to withhold anything from their pay, and that their net pay is to equal their gross pay, to the penny. It’s perfectly legal. And the statement should also say that any withholding without written permission is in fact illegal conversion of property, which is in fact a felony, along with breach of fiduciary duty, just for starters. In fact, I’ve been doing this for the last twenty years. Try it. You’ll like it.

    Big M (766ed1)

  85. WTH? What’s “more generous” about making a 61 year old man pay for maternity care?

    Why would maternity care coverage factor into the premiums of a 61 year old man? Surely insurance companies know that a 61 year old man would have zero chance of using maternity care.

    Of course, the premiums for a 21 year old woman that includes maternity care coverage would be cheaper than the premiums for a 61 year old man that excludes such coverage.

    Michael Ejercito (b371e1)

  86. Perhaps some form of system such as quarterly filing for everybody might help?

    I’d prefer it to be a monthly bill. That way, every 1st of the month will remind everyone just how much they’re paying for government.

    It would take about 4 months of those payments before there would be a great cry to cut spending.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  87. Just two things. The woman you said could keep her policy was told by her insurer that they were going to cancel her policy. How do you come to the conclusion that she can keep it?

    Obama promised everyone that if they liked their insurance, they’d be able to keep it. That’s how people came to the conclusion that they “should” be able to keep their policies.

    The reason the policy was cancelled was because the new law made the policy illegal.

    So, because of ACA, the policy no longer existed, and the woman who had the policy was not allowed to keep it.

    It’s pretty simple, I’m a bit surprised you didn’t reason that out for yourself.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  88. I agree about withholding. People are shocked when I point out they can take their “refund” during the year with a few simple calculations.

    Washington seems so far away from us; I think this is why presidential elections are so poorly attended. The biggest mistake for the Dems in Obamacare is that people now can see how disastrous Washington can render their ordinary lives.

    Patricia (be0117)

  89. I forgot to add something. If your payroll department tries to tell you that they’re required to withhold, then they’re flat-out ignorant of the law, and you need to school them, as well as their legal counsel. There is no law in this country that requires companies to act as unpaid tax collection agents for the feds, or for anybody else. Tax collection is the job of “government,” NOT private companies.

    As a matter of fact, when it comes to “income” taxes, or any other internal revenue taxes, the code itself states that before anybody can “owe” a tax, it must be assessed (Section 6201), the so-called “liability” of the so-called “taxpayer” must be recorded in the office of the Secretary (Section 6203), and a notice and demand for payment must be sent to the so-called “taxpayer” (Section 6303). Has anybody ever heard of this being done? Of course not. That’s because everybody goes along with this withholding swindle, and since they voluntarily allow the money to be taken without these procedures being implemented, by filling out W-4s and the like, which is NOT legally required of anybody, there’s no need for them to be implemented.

    Big M (766ed1)

  90. Big M, nonsense. Spare us the tax protestor loony legal theories.

    SPQR (768505)

  91. It’s not federal law, though, that forces the cancellation of those policies in California, right now, it’s California law!

    This is not happening in all states.

    I don’t know if the L.A. Times is telling you that. All the major media don’t seem to realize that.

    But I found in the New York Times:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/26/your-money/health-insurance-options-arent-limited-to-obamacare-exchanges.html?_r=0 (Saturday, October 26, 2013 New York Tims, page B4 of the New York edition – this did not appear nationally, but it is on the website)

    Paragraphs 19-21 of 23 3rd Q&A of 4:

    ■ If I have an individual plan already, can I keep it?

    Maybe. Generally, plans that take effect for 2014 must meet the law’s requirements. But there’s a loophole in most states: if your insurer allows you to renew your current policy early — before Jan. 1 — you may be able to keep it for 12 more months without penalty.

    A handful of states limit this option. Insurers selling plans on California’s state-run exchange, for instance, aren’t allowed to offer renewals of 2013 plans. So ask your insurer. And note that if you go this route, your plan won’t necessarily have the Affordable Care Act’s mandated benefits.

    California law mandates the cancellationmof polcies, not the PPACA. Because the PPACA has a loophole – if the policy is renewed before midnight December 31, 2013, you can keep for (another year?) (the renewal period, even if longer than one year?)

    Sammy Finkelman (d530d0)

  92. Contact members of the Californis legislature – or would taht be a waste of time? Well, start now, if the website still malfunctioning after Thanksgiving, they might be amenable to changing the law, and if the legislature is not session, Governor Jerry brown might be amenable to calling it into special session.

    In fact, I’d say, contact Governor Jerry Brown now. Organize a petition, I don’t know waht you do.

    This is a little bit off the wall, but he likes things like that. Still.

    Sammy Finkelman (d530d0)

  93. 88. Comment by Big M (766ed1) — 10/28/2013 @ 8:20 am

    I forgot to add something. If your payroll department tries to tell you that they’re required to withhold, then they’re flat-out ignorant of the law,

    They are definitely required not to pocket the money, and I suppose you could say you don’t trust them, but I think normally you have to claim you would be exempt from income tax – don’t expect to owe any – to not have any withholding at all. It can certainly be done if the work is temporary and the amount being paid for teh whole year is low.

    But besides that anyone can raise the number of exemptions, or add or subtract dollar amounts.

    Sammy Finkelman (d530d0)

  94. Today, I would add one other suggestion: a requirement that the government send taxpayers an itemized bill showing the breakdown of what they owe and what the money is going for.

    How far would it broken down?

    Page 104 of the 2012 1040 instructions already has a not very informative) breakdown. (in percentages)

    The total amounts are also given: for fiscal year 2011, it was $2.303 trillion income and $3.603 trillion expenditures, meaninga deficit (or profit?) of approximately $1.3 trillion.

    There is a nice pie chart there.

    It shows for income:

    Personal income taxes: 30%
    Social Secuirty, Medicare, Unemployment, Other returememnt taxes: 23%
    Excise, Customs, gift, estate and other micellaneous taxes: 6%
    Corporate incoem taxes: 5%
    Borrowing: 36%

    This rate of borrowing means for every $5 that is sent to Washington, Washington spends $7.81 for a pgain of 56.25% by routing the money through Washington. Interest is only 6% of outlays, so even subtracting the interest ($216 billion) that still leaves 30% or a gain of 42.28% or $5.00 in taxes ets you $7.14. This size of deficit, of course, is unsustainable, and must shrink to about $500 billion a year after subtracting interest (it’s now about a trillion) If interest artes stayed the same that would about $100 to $200 billion a year deficit, if it goes up, the primary budget might even have to be in surplus.

    Inflation reduces the size of the debt in relation to GDP, but increases the annual deficit unless interets rates are kept down, as they were in the 1940s.

    Sammy Finkelman (d530d0)

  95. Sammy, income tax protestor looney legal theories are a maze that even you … say, Sammy, maybe you should research those….

    SPQR (768505)

  96. In my view the no withholding idea is misguided. You are tempting people to violate the tax laws and then punishing them when they do. So you are harming the improvident portion of the population without providing any particular benefit (that I can see) to the prudent. We should be making it easier for stupid people to live their lives not harder. Particularly in cases like this where this can be done without imposing any great burden on the more sensible.

    James B. Shearer (f5d33d)

  97. Comment by Chuck Bartowski (11fb31) — 10/28/2013 @ 8:10 am

    It would take about 4 months of those payments before there would be a great cry to cut spending replace the personal income tax with a value added tax/consumption tax/corporate income tax.

    Sammy Finkelman (d530d0)

  98. I think the entire tax system should be replaced with a national sales tax on food, medicine, clothing, and housing at the consumer level, and on nothing else. Surefire receipts, little possibility of evasion, everybody needs those things. The government can also show generosity by generously refusing to tax people’s vegetable gardens and backyard chicken coops and turning a blind eye to guys digging through grocery store and restaurant dumpsters.

    Let’s be sensible about this. If we want soldiers and firemen, we need to have taxes. So there will be taxes. From the point of view of taxpayers demanding accountability for their money — that 20% (or whatever) extra your meal is costing you will be “in your face” three times a day. Hmm, what say you?

    nk (dbc370)

  99. If my employer didn’t withhold my income tax payments, I would set it up at the bank to put it into a separate account with each paycheck deposit. And I’d set it up so that I couldn’t touch it until April.

    Then it’d all there waiting for me to happily hand it over to the government at tax time.

    I might even choose my bank based on the kinds of products they offered to support my tax-paying requirements.

    Gosh, this is sounding like something that might spur commerce.

    Pious Agnostic (ac89e5)

  100. 81. Comment by Amphipolis (d3e04f) — 10/28/2013 @ 6:39 am

    Maybe a compromise would be for the income tax to go into an escrow account,

    It does, because the money is sent only four times a year, and everybody gets to see exactly how much is going in federal income and Social Security taxes on their payroll stub, if they get one.

    They get the figures both for that check and YTD = Year to Date.

    Sammy Finkelman (d530d0)

  101. It will also help with the obesity epidemic. A healthier population.

    nk (dbc370)

  102. PA at 98. I’ve been doing that since age 27, the last time I got a W-2. April 11, and not April 15, because I don’t want to wait in line too long for a proof of mailing.

    nk (dbc370)

  103. 50. “There are winners and losers under the Affordable Care Act.”

    You are not going to catch Obama or any of his minions saying that!

    Sammy Finkelman (d530d0)

  104. Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/27/2013 @ 5:40 pm

    I can’t explain why some people arrange things so they get as large a refund check as possible

    For the same reason people (used to) deposit money in a Christmas club at a bank.

    And haven’t you heard the financial maxim: “Pay Yourself First”

    Interest is not the only reason people save money. (over the short and medium term, even long run)

    Also, of course, a lot of people don’t realize they have control over the withholding rate.

    Sammy Finkelman (d530d0)

  105. You gotta see this, folks.

    TED RALL AGREES WITH SARAH PALIN ABOUT OBAMACARE:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/25/1250564/-Via-Sarah-Palin-How-Obama-s-Idiotic-ACA-Might-Lead-to-Real-Healthcare-Reform#

    At the Daily Kos, no less. Surely the apocalypse is nigh.

    qdpsteve (daa67c)

  106. He calls Obama incompetent but from the comments one can see that the kossites are still in violent denial of realty. And Rall is pushihg for single payer. His hope is Sarah’s fear.That’s agreement? Not really.

    elissa (ed2492)

  107. What elissa said. Ted Rall’s an idiot, anyway.

    nk (dbc370)

  108. 28. Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/27/2013 @ 7:10 pm

    They consider their refund like a savings account they otherwise wouldn’t have. I never understood that; it’s like admitting you can’t manage your own money and you need Uncle Sugar to do it for you.

    People don’t save money in the bank for the interest. Especially in the last 25 years.

    What’s going to happen, if this goes on, is that Obamacare is going to take away their refund and maybe even seem to require some people to write a check. Nobody seems to be getting into that much.

    Of course, Congress may change the law and give back the refund.

    People could lose mney for two reasons: 1) their advance tax credit turns out to have been too high when trued up, OR 2) they (or a family member who gets an exemption on the tax return) were missing at least 3 consecutive months of health insurance.

    Maybe they’ll advance the earliest date for counting the 3 months, from January to March or April.

    Sammy Finkelman (d530d0)

  109. Ted Rall is not an idiot. Idiot would be an order of magnitude improvement in Ted Rall. Ted Rall is a flaming ass who should be tarred, feathered and horsewhipped until the end of the century.

    SPQR (768505)

  110. Just a correction: you guys are probably right about Rall licking his lips over Palin’s worst nightmare of a single-payer system. Sorry to miss that as I should have caught it.

    Having said that, I love what all of you have to say about Rall himself. Keep it up. ;-)

    qdpsteve (daa67c)

  111. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    They consider their refund like a savings account they otherwise wouldn’t have. I never understood that; it’s like admitting you can’t manage your own money and you need Uncle Sugar to do it for you.

    People don’t save money in the bank for the interest. Especially in the last 25 years.

    Banks make it easy to do these days: you get your paycheck directly deposited — assuming that you still have a paycheck in the Obama economy — and you can either have part of it sent to a checking and part to a savings account, or you can have the bank sweep a designated amount from checking to savings at specified intervals.

    And most companies of any size have 401(k) options which take a designated percentage of your gross and send it to an investment company, all to build retirement savings for you. There’s really very little actual work involved for the individual in saving money, and that means not very much excuse for not saving (beyond not making enough money to save anything).

    We remodeled our kitchen this past year, and I borrowed $16,000 to pay for it; I borrowed it from my 401(k), so, in effect, I have been paying interest to myself for the loan. It took exactly one phone call to arrange this.

    The (broke) financial wizard Dana (3e4784)

  112. Ted Rall is not an idiot. Idiot would be an order of magnitude improvement in Ted Rall. Ted Rall is a flaming ass who should be tarred, feathered and horsewhipped until the end of the century.

    This. Except not the end of the century. The end of time.

    JD (5c1832)

  113. Unless Congress works out the Farm Bill, it’s predicted that the price of milk will rise to $8.00 a gallon. Wait until people start getting their Obamacare bills and $8.00 milk.

    rochf (f3fbb0)

  114. I doubt we’ll see $8 milk, rochf. Most of the farm bill provisions for dairy farmers support prices upward.

    SPQR (768505)

  115. I was going to post the same comment, but you beat me, SPQR. Who exactly is “predicting” the price of milk will be $8.00?

    elissa (ed2492)

  116. Re: Witholding.

    Tax Day should be moved from April 15th, to November 1st!

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  117. SPQR, I cited actual sections of the Code. “Theories?” You ignorant, state-worshiping stooges really get tiresome. Do you write for quatloos.com? What part of “I’ve been doing this for twenty years” don’t you understand?

    Show me the law that requires any of these things or shut your stupid hole.

    Big M (766ed1)

  118. Big M., you cited a statute out of context for an argument it has no relation to.

    Which is typical of income tax protestor frauds.

    SPQR (768505)

  119. As for withholding by employer being required by law, the citation is 26 USC sec 3401 et seq.

    Income tax protestor loons are as hilarious as “attorney” Roger S. in their fantasy land of cut and paste of statutes.

    Next: using the UCC to avoid tax liability. Its a laff riot.

    SPQR (768505)

  120. El Rushbo is having a hard time not going apoplectic today.

    First, he notes that Krauthamer said he didn’t know who Obama really was until 5 weeks into office with the first SOTU.

    Second, he notes a communication from some Dem strategist saying the Dems are in trouble because of the actual ObamaCare premiums and such, and complains, “Why didn’t Obama tell the truth?”

    Of course, El Rushbo can’t understand how people were so ignorant when it should have been obvious.

    Then third, know we we are told that President Obama didn’t know about the NSA eavesdropping on world leaders…
    To summarize (paraphrase), “He didn’t know about Fast and Furious, he didn’t know about Benghazi, he didn’t know about ObamaCare, and now he didn’t know what the NSA was doing…Does he know that he is president???”

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  121. I was against ObamaCare because I always knew I would be paying for it.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  122. Michael Ejercito @84 wrote:

    Why would maternity care coverage factor into the premiums of a 61 year old man? Surely insurance companies know that a 61 year old man would have zero chance of using maternity care.

    Of course the insurance companies know that. Which is why the 61 y.o. man never was required to have maternity coverage before.

    But insurance companies are no longer in charge. Per the ACA the Secretary of HHS determines what essential services every policy must cover.

    Why do you imagine all these policies are getting cancelled for not being ACA compliant in the first place?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  123. Of course, what really riles Majarushie is that all of these media and Dems are worried about what the ObamaCare debacle will mean for the Dem party and the reputation of the media folk,
    people worried about the consequences for the American people? Not so much…

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  124. I asked about this before,
    what does it mean that a 61 yo man has to pay for maternity coverage?
    That expected maternity costs for all insured women of childbearing age is spread across all insured equally, including males and non-childbearing age women?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  125. I saw the same thing from my “Obama side”, a doctor, yesterday. A week ago, she would not brook a word against Obamacare. Yesterday, she could only say, “It will still be good for doctors. More people will be able to go to the doctor when they need to.” She knew it was not true the minute she said it. She worked in a lot of comprehensive ERs, and took a lot of calls on the floor and in her specialties, to know that nobody who needed medical care was denied it because of inability to pay. She agreed with me (and I’m afraid she’ll need to seek treatment for it), that you cannot insure 40 million “affordably” without doing it on the backs of those already affordably insured.

    nk (dbc370)

  126. 12. Employment Tax Evasion. The IRS has seen a number of illegal schemes that instruct employers not to withhold federal income tax or other employment taxes from wages paid to their employees. Such advice is based on an incorrect interpretation of Section 861 and other parts of the tax law and has been refuted in court. Recent cases have resulted in criminal convictions, and the courts have issued injunctions against more than a dozen persons ordering them to stop promoting the scheme. Employer participants can also be held responsible for back payments of employment taxes, plus penalties and interest. It is worth noting that employees who have nothing withheld from their wages are still responsible for payment of their personal taxes.

    http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Common_Tax_Scams

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  127. meanwhile the polling on obamacare continues to improve. Opposition has ticked up a bit but support has risen much more:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

    So are you guys really sure you aren’t suffering a bit of confirmation bias in terms of which stories you listen to and which you discount?

    Really really double-plus sure?

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  128. Tlaloc, you really are clueless. Millions of people are losing insurance and you think a poll – which is measuring name recognition and little else – is good news?

    Its the rush to abandon Obamacare by Senate Democrats up for election in 2014 that is the real news.

    SPQR (768505)

  129. “meanwhile the polling on obamacare continues to improve.”

    Tlaloc – Interesting you seem so focused on polling which can be gamed so easily rather than substance or policy. Did you see the poll in which 60% thought the 404Care rollout was a joke?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  130. Tlaloc, the people who wrote the bill don’t even want to live in accordance with it.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  131. Shorter Tlaloc – My confirmation bias is confirmed.

    This is only a flesh wound.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  132. Of course, what really riles Majarushie is that all of these media and Dems are worried about what the ObamaCare debacle will mean for the Dem party and the reputation of the media folk,

    Generic ballot for the dems is looking very good right now. Sabato is writing posts like this:

    http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/after-the-shutdown-republicans-sort-through-the-wreckage/

    basically saying the chances of the right taking the senate are reducing to a very low order while the possibility of the left taking the house are growing (still small, but growing). Rothenberg and Cook seem to be on the same page.

    So yeah, I don’t think anyone at the DNC is sweating hard right now.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-2170.html

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  133. Congress should pass a law mandating that Tlaloc purchase a computer—even if he doesn’t want to buy one.
    That way, he can join in on our reindeer games on the weekends, and not have to wait until Monday to tell us how stupid we are. Or whatever.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  134. Did I say something that provoked the return of someone who has not been missed?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  135. Tlaloc, you really are clueless. Millions of people are losing insurance and you think a poll – which is measuring name recognition and little else – is good news?

    Name recognition explains a 5 point up swing in favorables for the PPACA over the last two weeks? Really, that’s the angle you’re using?

    Its the rush to abandon Obamacare by Senate Democrats up for election in 2014 that is the real news.

    Who is abandoning? All I’ve heard is a few people call for a delay in implementing the individual mandate. Have there been calls by dems to repeal or defund?

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  136. meanwhile the polling on obamacare continues to improve.

    Will all the mooches who believe it’s a natural right to live off the sweat of others please raise your hands? We already got you, Tatloc, you can put yours down.

    nk (dbc370)

  137. Tlaloc – Interesting you seem so focused on polling which can be gamed so easily rather than substance or policy. Did you see the poll in which 60% thought the 404Care rollout was a joke?

    Polling gives you a sense of public opinion. A, well, rather large number of embarrassing moments for the right have come about precisely because they had no idea the state of public opinion.

    If you like be pantsed repeatedly by the dems you certainly may continue. On the other hand if you’d like to actually maybe win occasionally it might help if you knew the ‘lay of the land’ as it were.

    Your call.

    (as for public impression of the roll out, I have not seen that poll but it wouldn’t surprise me. On the other hand I think you are most likely reading way too much into it. Do you see a lot of those “pentium happens” bumper stickers still around? Not so much.)

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  138. A delay in the individual mandate that the Democrats called Republicans “terrorists” for including in a CR just days before.

    Your clown act is hilarious, Tlaloc.

    Meanwhile, the emails I’m getting from a Democrat Senator up for reelection in 2014 show a desire to run away from Obamacare today.

    And when tens of millions more people are uninsured in late 2014 than were in 2009, and middle class voters are seeing a 30% jump in insurance premiums, that’s when the Democrat party crashes into a smoking hole.

    SPQR (768505)

  139. Congress should pass a law mandating that Tlaloc purchase a computer—even if he doesn’t want to buy one.
    That way, he can join in on our reindeer games on the weekends, and not have to wait until Monday to tell us how stupid we are. Or whatever.

    I try to spend as much time as I can with my family on the weekends as I get very little time during the week. This is unlikely to change no matter how much you miss me in the interim.

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  140. 126. …So are you guys really sure you aren’t suffering a bit of confirmation bias in terms of which stories you listen to and which you discount?

    Really really double-plus sure?

    Comment by Tlaloc (69d28b) — 10/28/2013 @ 11:33 am

    You mean getting our information from right-wing, inside-the-bubble news sources like the LAT, CBS, NBC, or the NYT?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57609534/policy-cancellations-higher-premiums-add-to-frustration-over-obamacare/?tag=socsh

    Perhaps that hotbed of TEA Party extremism, the National Journal?

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/white-house/obama-takes-friendly-fire-20131028

    ncoming from Democrats:

    “Dem Party is F****d.” That was the subject line of an email sent to me Sunday by a senior Democratic consultant with strong ties to the White House and Capitol Hill. The body of the email contained a link to this Los Angeles Times story about Obamacare “sticker shock:”

    …The Democratic consultant said none of this is news to him, but he wonders why Obama wasn’t honest with Americans. He predicted surprise and outrage over higher costs and lesser coverage. “We will own this problem forever,” the Democrat wrote.

    Ooh, yeah, this is confirmation bias. Clearly that senior Democratic party consultant doesn’t believe your BS about the polling, either.

    Thanks for playing, Flailoc.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  141. In local elections, Democrats continue to lose ground. Another recall petition effort for a Democrat state senator in Colorado is gaining signatures fast.

    SPQR (768505)

  142. Will all the mooches who believe it’s a natural right to live off the sweat of others please raise your hands? We already got you, Tatloc, you can put yours down.

    So you learned nothing from Romney’s 47% débâcle. Got it.

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  143. Who pays for the food your kids eat, Tatloc?

    nk (dbc370)

  144. I don’t think this person was included in the polling.
    http://www.suntimes.com/news/marin/23352031-452/obamacare-jacks-up-her-insurance.html

    From the link:
    As UCLA Public Policy expert Dr. Gerald F. Kominski told CBS News this week, “Half of the 14 million people who buy insurance on their own are not going to keep the policies they previously had.”
    Hey, only 7 million people will directly know Obama lied to them.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  145. Obamacare is going to go down in history at the largest failure of government policy in history.

    It will do to the Democrat brand what Stephen Elop did to Nokia.

    SPQR (768505)

  146. Tlaloc, Congress should pass a law mandating that you spend more time with your family during the week.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  147. A delay in the individual mandate that the Democrats called Republicans “terrorists” for including in a CR just days before.

    No holding the economy hostage in order to get defunding is what got republicans terrorists. It was the tactic not the goal that was the big issue.

    This isn’t even nuance this is just basics I’m asking you to understand.

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  148. Scott Walker has a book out.
    Does that mean a presidential campaign is in the offing?

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  149. 141. And for your part, “nothing from Detroit pensioners’ ” will be our riposte.

    Yep, 16 cents on the dollar is better than a kick in the azz.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  150. That includes 56-year-old Dianne Barrette. Last month, she received a letter from Blue Cross Blue Shield informing her as of January 2014, she would lose her current plan. Barrette pays $54 a month. The new plan she’s being offered would run $591 a month — 10 times more than what she currently pays.

    Barrette said, “What I have right now is what I am happy with and I just want to know why I can’t keep what I have. Why do I have to be forced into something else?”

    According to HealthCare.gov, Barrette is eligible for some subsidies, CBS News’ Jan Crawford pointed out on “CBS This Morning.” But Barrette told CBS News she has no idea what those subsidies would be because she cannot log on to the website — an issue U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius is sure to be asked about when she testifies on Capitol Hill Wednesday.

    CBS News website.

    SPQR (768505)

  151. You mean getting our information from right-wing, inside-the-bubble news sources like the LAT, CBS, NBC, or the NYT?

    The point of confirmation bias is you listen and accept every story that says the PPACA is crashing and burning while ignoring and forgetting the stories that say the opposite and hence end up with a skewed view that poorly matches reality.

    Notice the other day when I mentioned the state run echanges were getting positive reviews no one here had a clue what I meant. They’d simply glossed over those stories as if they didn’t exist.

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  152. “Aggressive panhandling”. That’s the term I was looking for.

    nk (dbc370)

  153. As Obamacare failure spreads and becomes worse, the GOP is the one already established as trying to do something about it.

    That’s why Democrat consultants are emailing each other in a panic.

    SPQR (768505)

  154. Surely insurance companies know that a 61 year old man would have zero chance of using maternity care.

    He may, or may not, have a need for securing maternity care.
    His 60 years old wife, on the other hand….

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  155. Tlaloc, you are lying again. When you mentioned “state run exchanges are getting positive reviews”, we had a clue what you meant. We ridiculed you for misrepresenting the contents of the Reason piece you linked to, you flaming liar.

    SPQR (768505)

  156. Who pays for the food your kids eat, Tatloc?

    I do.

    Obamacare is going to go down in history at the largest failure of government policy in history.

    It will do to the Democrat brand what Stephen Elop did to Nokia.

    Well it sure is taking it’s sweet time doing so then. Tell me how long do you expect this process to take?

    Tlaloc, Congress should pass a law mandating that you spend more time with your family during the week.

    I’m sorry if the facts make you frowney faced but you really will grow as human beings if you just face up to them.

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  157. 131. …So yeah, I don’t think anyone at the DNC is sweating hard right now.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/generic_congressional_vote-2170.html

    Comment by Tlaloc (69d28b) — 10/28/2013 @ 11:40 am

    Did you see the subtitle on that Ron Fournier article?

    An ally of the president begins to panic over Obamacare fallout.

    Perhaps you are correct. You don’t think.

    Seriously, DNC chair DWS just had one company alone cancel 300,000 policies in her state. Prompting the DNC chair to call for extending open enrollment.

    I don’t know how many of those 300,000 were in her district. But then Kaiser Health News just called a few companies. So you can be sure she hearing from her constituents.

    So she’s sweating.

    Steve57 (022c57)

  158. 149. Note how Howard J. likes fact free disputation.

    Don’t depress your adversaries with cold facts and tight reasoning just characterize reality in the most gratuitous fashion possible.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  159. While he’s occupying space in some grad school somewhere and contemplating how he’ll pay off his student loans, our friend Tlaloc might want to take a few courses on polling and opinion panels to better understand why most of us here do not take him seriously.

    Hint: it’s the wording of the questions and the authenticity of the responders and the info revealed in the crosstabs that count if an organization really wants to ferret out where Americans stand on any policy issue. To which poll are you referring, Tlaloc, and who commissioned it?

    elissa (ed2492)

  160. Tlaloc, you are lying again. When you mentioned “state run exchanges are getting positive reviews”, we had a clue what you meant. We ridiculed you for misrepresenting the contents of the Reason piece you linked to, you flaming liar.

    You ridiculed me for educating you? Actually that does sound sadly accurate. You are amazingly hostile to learning more about the world in which you (tenuously) live.

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  161. Tlaloc, you are a brazen little liar. DRJ pointed out that you misrepresented the contents of the article. Within seconds of your posting of the link.

    Because we’d already discussed it in another thread.

    You educate no one, because you are not capable of doing anything but lie.

    SPQR (768505)

  162. So she’s sweating.

    Let me know when the generic ballot falls from dem +6 or 8. Let me know when the GOP gets back to a 50-50 chance to take the senate. In short, let me know when any eternal measure of reality agrees with your fantasy scenario.

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  163. Note today, post shutdown and Yellen the next Royal Pressman the 10-year is bouncing off its new bottom with a yield of 2.50%.

    Housing has turned down at the fastest pace in 40 months.

    Urkel: “Winning!”

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  164. While he’s occupying space in some grad school somewhere and contemplating how he’ll pay off his student loans, our friend Tlaloc might want to take a few courses on polling and opinion panels to better understand why most of us here do not take him seriously.

    Hint: it’s the wording of the questions and the authenticity of the responders and the info revealed in the crosstabs that count if an organization really wants to ferret out where Americans stand on any policy issue. To which poll are you referring, Tlaloc, and who commissioned it?

    Elissa, please. You guys went through all this in 2012, how’d that work out for you?

    To answer you last question I linked to the RCP page which aggregates all the polls on the subject. I’m not cherry picking one result, I’m looking at the trend across all the polls.

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  165. DRJ pointed out that you misrepresented the contents of the article.

    Yeah ecept for the part where he was wrong. Except for that you are spot on. Look tell you what, we can just take it as a given that every time I bring you guys information like manna from heaven at least one of you will make a completely farcical attempt to debunk what I said.

    Deal?

    That way you can stop bringing up such things and pretending they do anything more than prompt me to destroy another strawman. See my last 10 posts in this thread for examples.

    Tlaloc (69d28b)

  166. Tlaloc, she wasn’t wrong. She quoted from the article where it contradicted what you claimed. Showing that you are simply a brazen liar.

    SPQR (768505)

  167. 149. …while ignoring and forgetting the stories that say the opposite and hence end up with a skewed view that poorly matches reality.

    Notice the other day when I mentioned the state run echanges were getting positive reviews no one here had a clue what I meant. They’d simply glossed over those stories as if they didn’t exist.

    Comment by Tlaloc (69d28b) — 10/28/2013 @ 11:54 am

    Again with the strawmen. No one here had a clue? You’re like your Messiah; “some people say we should do nothing.” Really?

    Yeah, I’ve read about some but not all state exchanges getting positive reviews. Which is a far cry from your blanket statement about state exchanges in general. And so what?

    The vast majority of sign-ups in half of the exchanges are for Medicaid. Not insurance. 87% in Washington. 100% in Oregon. etc.

    The other states that set up their own exchanges have released their figures.

    So, yeah, they’re getting good reviews because the majority of people using them don’t have to interface with the stupid federal system to buy insurance.

    So you think this is a huge deal? That Medicaid recipients in 14 states have a positive view of Obamacare?

    Steve57 (022c57)

  168. “You guys went through all this in 2012″

    Not so fast Gollum. 2010 was a Census year with 30 some State houses gerrymandering to the GOP’s benefit.

    It’s true for POTUS Republicans are done, and in Senate contests often likewise but ‘all politics are local’.

    TEAs and Thugs will have the House until 2020.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  169. A new Census Bureau report says that there are more people on welfare, then in full-time employment.
    As far as Obama and his Marxist sycophant Tlaloc are concerned, it means they are undoubtedly…winning !

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/christinerousselle/2013/10/25/great-more-americans-on-welfare-than-working-full-time-n1731984

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  170. Meanwhile, the only real thing that the state exchanges are succeeding in doing is signing up Medicaid. Which will blow up state budgets.

    SPQR (768505)

  171. In #167, I should have written “than” not “then.”
    My bad.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  172. 163. He, she, what’s the diff?

    ‘Know your adversary’ is advice best ignored when relying on the mercy of Big Brother.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  173. Tlalala hearts polls. Facts, not so much.

    JD (5c1832)

  174. Tlaloc is all for ObamaCare because he isn’t paying for it.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  175. I asked about this before, what does it mean that a 61 yo man has to pay for maternity coverage? That expected maternity costs for all insured women of childbearing age is spread across all insured equally, including males and non-childbearing age women?
    Comment by MD in Philly (f9371b) — 10/28/2013 @ 11:24 am

    – I believe that is the case, Yes.

    Icy (309bbc)

  176. When Republicans called for delay of individual mandate, to correspond with the unilateral delay of employer mandate, Dems squealed that they were anarchist terrorist arsonist hostage takers.

    JD (5c1832)

  177. Ziploc, is it hard to type with Soros’ hand up your butt manipulating your every word?

    Gazzer (a55a11)

  178. 119. Rush Limbaugh also said Politico said he was right, not wrong as some otherrs said, about not having to pay the Obamacare penalty if you weren’t going to get a refund. They claimed he was half-wrong because the treasry says it will charge interest (but apparently no penalty)

    Rush estimated the interest rate as 1%. I think that’s too low.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  179. Notice the other day when I mentioned the state run echanges were getting positive reviews no one here had a clue what I meant. They’d simply glossed over those stories as if they didn’t exist.

    They dont exist, in reality. They are furiously registering people for Medicaid, but besides that, no real successes.

    JD (5c1832)

  180. Pompous arrogant TA’s are never not tiresome.

    JD (5c1832)

  181. 126. Comment by Tlaloc (69d28b) — 10/28/2013 @ 11:33 am

    meanwhile the polling on obamacare continues to improve. Opposition has ticked up a bit but support has risen much more:

    What that means is some people who were undecided because they didn’t know enough about it, decided maybe they liked it a bit, from what they are hearing.

    Or it wasn’t as bad as their worst fears. And they are thinking, maybe the only bad thing is the website.

    Or some people just don’t agree with all the criticism of the web site – give it a chance, so instead of being undecided they say they have a positive opinion.

    Or maybe the way the question is asked, they think maybe it is only about the website.

    tp://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

    So are you guys really sure you aren’t suffering a bit of confirmation bias in terms of which stories you listen to and which you discount?

    Really really double-plus sure?

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  182. Tlaloc: So are you guys really sure you aren’t suffering a bit of confirmation bias in terms of which stories you listen to and which you discount?

    Really really double-plus sure?

    Approval can’t be going up, unless some people are just finding out about Obamacare.

    Something is being lost in transmission.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  183. Between SF and Turdlock, I’m wearing out my scroll roller.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  184. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

    They are all probably within the margin of error.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  185. Once again, Tlaloc is caught lying. He’s definitely an Obama fan.

    SPQR (768505)

  186. “Polling gives you a sense of public opinion.”

    Tlacoc – Sure, at a given point in time and is highly sensitive to the composition of the sample and the way the questions are asked. That is why I believe you are putting way too much emphasis on current polling as a predictor of future events.

    Let’s examine events over the past several weeks, the duration of the poll averages you cited in your original post on this thread, which could have had an impact on the poll outcomes.

    How about the relentless hammering of Republicans by the Democrat media industrial complex over the defunding or delay of Unaffordable 404Care and the government slowdown precipitated by Obama’s hissy fit? Add to that the daily demagoguery from congressional Democrats and President Gutsy Call dumping on Republicans and proclaiming the wonders of government healthcare and it seems plain except to low information voters unable to think for themselves why polls have temporarily moved in the direction they have.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  187. “Approval can’t be going up, unless some people are just finding out about Obamacare.”

    Sammy – Sure it can. They are just thinking what they are told to think and confirming that they have no objection to being blatantly lied to by the Lightbringer.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  188. 157 to Tlaloc: Comment by elissa (ed2492) — 10/28/2013 @ 11:58 am

    To which poll are you referring, Tlaloc, and who commissioned it?

    I don’t know – maybe you ned to find the web site where he got it from, but the only poll that seems to show some kind of again is the Fox news poll *, which showed a below average approval rate in its October 1/2 poll.

    FOX News* 10/1 – 10/2 952 RV 36 52 Against/Oppose +16

    FOX News* 10/20 – 10/22 1020 RV 41 51 Against/Oppose +10

    So Obamacare, in this poll, moves from 16 points against to 10 points against. That’s Tlaloc’s gain. Not one poll shows a net positive opinion of Obamacare.

    There were a few in late June and early July.

    It might be the difference only is, that supporters are a bit more likely now to snaser the survey.

    * and to some degree CNN

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  189. “Approval can’t be going up, unless some people are just finding out about Obamacare.”

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 10/28/2013 @ 12:34 pm

    Sammy – Sure it can. They are just thinking what they are told to think and confirming that they have no objection to being blatantly lied to by the Lightbringer.

    That won’t last. Ok, there are some people who maybe diudn’t have astrong opinion, AND are ready to accept whatever Obama says, but there’s a limited supply of them, and then experience and taslking to other people, reduces support.

    The old polls used to ask the question of those who said their opinion was unfavorable:

    Is your opposition to Obamacare based on it being “too liberal” or “not liberal enough?” Or an equivalent idea. And about one third would agree it is not liberal enough, whatever that means.

    Obamacare coming under severe attack from the right could cause a small percentage to say their opinion was favorable, while if they had been asked before, they would have said unfavorable.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  190. 165. Comment by Steve57 (022c57) — 10/28/2013 @ 12:06 pm

    Yeah, I’ve read about some but not all state exchanges getting positive reviews.

    Ted Rall says they are bad: (linked to above)

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/25/1250564/-Via-Sarah-Palin-How-Obama-s-Idiotic-ACA-Might-Lead-to-Real-Healthcare-Reform#

    And he even says why they are bad and blames the Obama Administration:

    most of the online state marketplaces, developed based on consultations with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, are just as buggy and crashy as the federal one.

    As a matter of fact, today the New York Daily News has an editorial against the New York one.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  191. I think the polls showing increased approval are easily accounted for by increased Dem support. They are rallying around Teh One and his unicorn and fairy dust plan.

    JD (5c1832)

  192. Sam@186–it was a challenge to Tlaloc’s BS– not a request for you to go do his homework for him. Aggregate poll data on policy may indeed contain results of many polls that used similar words or asked questions to interest groups about related issues over weeks or months, but they compare apples to oranges to aardvarks and are not meaningful to serious poll geeks. Aggregate polls such as RCP’s that over time measure trends of voter approval/interest between specific candidates or between generic candidates may be more useful.

    elissa (ed2492)

  193. For instance, aggregate poll averages on gun control or Omamacare are useless because the questions themselves are all over the map.

    elissa (ed2492)

  194. I like this clip for the Tlaloc math is hard crowd:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUd-slJc-GY

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  195. “That won’t last.”

    Sammy – That’s my point.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  196. I know, I know. It’s going to be positively SHOCKA to learn that Tlaloc was lying about how great the state exchanges are.

    Oh and, to date, the tally for the state of Oregon is:
    100% of ‘enrollees’ enrolled in Medicaid,
    0 (NOT ‘zero-point-something’ percent; ZERO, as in “not even ONE person”) enrolled in a private health plan.

    Icy (309bbc)

  197. Icy – It is like that, to differing degrees, across the country. Kentucky, which is hailed as a “success” has approx 26,000 enrolled, and approx 21,000 of them are expanded Medicaid.

    That math will not work for ObamaCare. The most conservative estimate I saw was that 50% of enrollees needed to be actual paying policies, and again, a specific mix of old and young within that. That does not even begin to take into account how the massive Medicaid expansion will blow up State and Federal budgets, over time. It is front loaded to be all Federal dollars, but once that period is over, it will be all on the State, and it will hurt.

    JD (5c1832)

  198. Can anyone point to the part of the law that regulates how much doctors can charge their patients? (Such as $10 for a doctor visit, $100 for a CAT scan, $1000 for chemotherapy, and $10,000 for a coronary bypass.)
    Comment by Michael Ejercito (b371e1) — 10/28/2013 @ 6:56 am

    Pushing price controls again? It doesn’t work and you’ve been told why over and over.

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  199. Sperm god’s attempt to cast aspersions on DRJ refutation of the meme he was pushing, and the link he had not read, is rather telling.

    JD (2cbb7d)

  200. Otto is still expounding on Aristotle being Belgian, shockah?

    narciso (3fec35)

  201. The tally in Oregon is:
    56,000 new Medicaid enrollees
    34 paper applications processed (meaning ‘checked to see if they qualify for subsidies’) — because the state-exchange website has been down from the beginning — with no confirmed private insurance enrollee(s).

    Icy (309bbc)

  202. Can anyone point to the part of the law that regulates how much doctors can charge their patients? (Such as $10 for a doctor visit, $100 for a CAT scan, $1000 for chemotherapy, and $10,000 for a coronary bypass.)
    Comment by Michael Ejercito (b371e1) — 10/28/2013 @ 6:56 am

    – What the hell are you going on about?

    Icy (309bbc)

  203. Congress already passed a law forcing Tlaloc to buy health insurance, but maybe Congress should pass a law forcing Tlaloc to buy a clue.

    Elephant Stone (6a6f37)

  204. Icy,

    Michael is a big fan of government forcing price controls on nearly all (maybe all?) areas of commerce. Because they’ve worked so well in the past … and freedom, or something.

    Stashiu3 (e7ebd8)

  205. Comment by Elephant Stone (6a6f37) — 10/28/2013 @ 2:06 pm

    Some things are even beyond the power of Congress, though not if you listen to Princess Nan (but why would you want to?).

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  206. Icy,
    Michael is a big fan of government forcing price controls on nearly all (maybe all?) areas of commerce. Because they’ve worked so well in the past … and freedom, or something.
    Comment by Stashiu3 (e7ebd8) — 10/28/2013 @ 2:27 pm

    – Okay, but when he says “regulates how much doctors can charge their patients? Such as $10 for a doctor visit, etc.” Is he referring to insurance copays? or, the actual charges levied by medical providers?
    Because, if it’s the latter, then he is insane.

    Icy (309bbc)

  207. One thing govt could do would be to require all medical facilities to post a “menu board” listing prices.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  208. Sir Flailsalot finally got his talking points from media matters, I see!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  209. JD, does “is rather telling” translate to “brazen liar” in English?

    SPQR (768505)

  210. When dealing with pigs like it, better expressed as “azenbray iarlay” it would be! Not pointed at JD, but at the actual pig it is!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  211. SPQR – I was trying to be kinder. And nicer. Brazen aggressive liar is more accurate.

    JD (5c1832)

  212. JD, Tlaloc knew he’d been schooled in his linking of the Reason article. But that does not discourage liars from trying to just brazen it out. Tlaloc misrepresented in the very next comment what I wrote and what happened just the day before.

    SPQR (768505)

  213. Tlaloc should just drink moar water,I think, and leave the rest of us alone.

    elissa (ed2492)

  214. elissa,

    First thought you said “drown in moat water”, liked what I thought I read better, I did!

    Yoda (ee1de0)

  215. Yoda, You should prolly have your eyesight checked before you lose your coverage that the evil insurance companies are taking away from people.

    elissa (ed2492)

  216. 125. Comment by nk (dbc370) — 10/28/2013 @ 11:26 am

    ….A week ago, she would not brook a word against Obamacare. Yesterday, she could only say….

    The last date of polling for any of the polls on the http://www.realclearpolitics.com site linkd to by Tlaloc is October 22.

    Sammy Finkelman (70818b)

  217. SPQR, this is the last time I’ll bother refuting your fool arguments.

    One: The sections of the Code that I cited were not out of context, since they relate to any internal revenue tax that would be withheld from anybody’s pay.

    Two: Although you at least knew about 26 USC 3401, that section deals with definitions. It plainly states that the definitions of “wages,” “employer” and “employee” all relate to people who work in some capacity for the US government, as well as the US government itself. It does not apply to anybody who works in the private sector, and it does not apply to any company in the private sector. Any attempt by you to deny what is plainly written in black in white will stamp you as what you plainly are: a government shill.

    I’m done. The only person who argues with an idiot, much less a government Kool-Aid drinking idiot, is a bigger idiot. Bye now.

    Big M (766ed1)

  218. Big M., utterly false. The code section your cited was to the powers of the IRS to execute assessments. You are utterly clueless on the structure of the IRC.

    Secondly, I did not cite 26 USC 3401. I cited 26 USC 3401 et seq. That means section 3401 and the following sections. 3401 contains definitions. 3402 states the actual requirement that an employer withholds and provides authority for the IRS to create tables of withholding. 3403 makes the employer liable for the amounts to be withheld, etc. And the definition of employer and employee are not limited to those working for the US government.

    You are an incompetent idiot.

    SPQR (768505)

  219. If anyone is stupid enough to think Big M has a clue, link to the subchapter I’m refering to and Big M is lying about.

    SPQR (768505)

  220. For wacko tax protestors everywhere:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJD-gVBbkf0

    nk (dbc370)

  221. nk, an apt summation.

    Tax protestors really are bizarre. They copy each others incoherent misstatements and outright fraudulent inventions of a mish mash of case law and statutes until they have an incoherent mess and proclaim that they have some great legal argument.

    Its all nonsense.

    When I was bored and stressed at law school a couple decades ago, I used to enjoy going on USENET news groups and ridiculing tax protestors by actually finding the crap that they were citing. I would find things like case opinions where the protestor had left out words like ” … not …” that reversed the meaning. Really brazen fraud like that.

    The closely related “soverign citizen” nuts who think that quoting section 1 of the Uniform Commercial Code suddenly made them immune to Federal law were just as loony and just as hilarious.

    SPQR (768505)

  222. When I was a kid, just starting at my first job (1954), I was told about an employer who objected to withholding, as did many of his employees,
    and set up a demonstration (this story could be apocryphal):
    Payday came and everyone lined up at the PAY table, and received their pay, in Cash, in an envelope.
    Then they went to the next table, where they paid their Income Tax;
    Then to the third table to pay their FICA;
    etc., etc.
    The IRS was not happy and shut that down quick.
    Strange, but in the military in the 60′s, there were situations where you were paid just like that
    (absent having to payback your proper witholding)
    but they had the table there to collect club dues, laundry fees, porter fees, etc.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  223. askeptic, it is actually illegal to pay in cash these days.

    SPQR (768505)


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