Patterico's Pontifications

12/17/2012

Debunking Tommy Christopher on the Attack on Steve Crowder, Part 1: Christopher Extensively Connects Lee Stranahan and Breitbart.com to Crowder Tape

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:30 am

A post by Tommy Christopher is titled Didn’t Fox News Contributor Steven Crowder Just Confirm He Started Fight With Union Protester? The answer to the question, by the way, is “no.” (Tommy says it’s “yes” but he’s wrong. We’ll get to that in future posts.)

There is far too much misleading material in Christopher’s post to respond to in a single blog post. I am planning several, of which this is the first. I want to start my deconstruction of Tommy’s post by noting a correction at the end of it, which reads as follows:

Author’s note: An earlier version of this post identified Lee Stranahan, who shot the video of the tent going down, as the videographer behind the fight video, as well. He did not shoot that video, he only shot the tent video. This post has been edited to reflect this, and I regret the error.

My spidey-senses tingled when I saw this.

I was curious how Tommy worded the original post. Was the reference to Stranahan made in passing, or was it a central part of his argument? So I called up Stranahan, who sent me Tommy’s original text. It turns out that Tommy repeatedly, over and over, connected the concepts of Breitbart, Stranahan, and deceptive videos. It’s worth looking at Tommy’s entire original post, which I have reproduced here. Starting with the beginning of the post, here are the portions where Tommy tied together Breitbart, Stranahan, and deceptive video editing:

The big, splashy video to come out of Michigan protests against so-called “right to work” anti-union legislation, an edited clip by professional filmmaker and Breitbart.com columnist Lee Stranahan that purports to be a vicious attack on Fox News contributor Steven Crowder by a “union thug,” shockingly turns out not to be true, according to Fox News contributor Steven Crowder. . . .

Things got heated during Tuesday’s protests of Michigan’s sneak-attack passage of anti-union “right to work” legislation, and a tent belonging to the Koch-funded Americans For Prosperity was taken down by what appeared to be a group of protesters, and in the process, a fight between Steven Crowder and one of the protesters was caught on video by Breitbart.com’s Lee Stranahan.

People familiar with Breitbart “News” videographers’ penchant for misleading edits immediately smelled a rat when the Crowder clip surfaced on Youtube, edited to show the fight already in progress. . . .

There are many things that aren’t clear about this incident, but it is clear that Steven Crowder and Lee Stranahan have not been “very honest” about this, because Stranahan edited the video to omit the start of the fight, and Crowder failed to correct Hannity’s assertion that Crowder “didn’t push anybody,” and that makes everyting about this narrative suspect.

. . . .

Hannity’s guest said he saw video of Crowder taking the man down to the ground. Whatever happened to that tent, the story that Crowder and Stranahan are pushing is, not surprisingly, false.

You can debate whether Crowder was somehow justified in putting his hands on that man, but by his own admission, he did, and if Crowder thinks he was blameless, then he ought to insist that Stranahan release the raw video that Hannity claims he saw, and stop letting people claim he “didn’t push anybody.”

As you can see, Christopher’s error regarding Stranahan absolutely pervaded his original piece. The correction does not begin to convey just how deeply Christopher went “all in” on the notion that Stranahan — and by extension the dreaded Breitbart.com! — edited the Crowder video.

Apparently Christopher’s argument went something like this: Andrew Breitbart was associated (at least in lefty minds) with deceptively edited videos. Lee Stranahan, who has never been accused of making a deceptively edited video, works for Breitbart.com. And he is the one who made this video, even though really he didn’t. Therefore and thusly, this video is deceptively edited! Thank you, don’t forget to tip your waitresses, and I’m HERE ALL WEEK!

This is a smear not only of Lee Stranahan but of Andrew Breitbart, who can’t defend himself. (That’s OK. I’ll do it.)

I would love to know where Tommy Christopher got the idea that Lee Stranahan and Breitbart.com had something to do with the Crowder video. Just who are the “[p]eople familiar with Breitbart ‘News’ videographers’ penchant for misleading edits” who “immediately smelled a rat” due to the (non)involvement of Stranahan with this video?

I have written Tommy to ask him this question, but have received no response.

My tentative titles for future posts include:

  • Debunking Tommy Christopher on the Attack on Steve Crowder, Part 2: No, Steven Crowder Did NOT Admit Starting the Fight with the Guy Who Punched Him
  • Debunking Tommy Christopher on the Attack on Steve Crowder, Part 3: How a Careful Analysis of Raw Video Is Inconsistent with Crowder Starting the Fight with the Guy Who Punched Him
  • Debunking Tommy Christopher on the Attack on Steve Crowder, Part 4: Why Did Tommy Christopher Not Mention the Statements from Black Witnesses on Who Pulled Down the Tent?
  • Debunking Tommy Christopher on the Attack on Steve Crowder, Part 5: Ignoring the Other Victims of Union Violence

59 Responses to “Debunking Tommy Christopher on the Attack on Steve Crowder, Part 1: Christopher Extensively Connects Lee Stranahan and Breitbart.com to Crowder Tape”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  2. Xtopher is the brown streak on society’s tighty whiteys.

    Icy (75ccb6)

  3. It’s just wrong that the convicted bomber fellow can make such mischief through the courts with made up stuff, but that we can’t use the courts to hold people accountable who do make up other stuff.

    It seems personal responsibility is a lost concept. If you can get away with deception for your cause, do it. If you don’t like what other people do, make them stop if you can. Don’t be held accountable, hold no one accountable.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  4. The usual tactic – just invent a lie and chain the entire paranoid schizo fantasy upon it.

    SPQR (768505)

  5. I love you more than beans for not going 24/7 Connecticut

    happyfeet (0c6883)

  6. Tommy has been fed garbage from untrustworthy sources since Andrew Weiner displayed his problems to all the world.

    He falls for it, EVERYTIME, which makes me wonder, sometimes, if he isn’t really falling for it, and that he just backs off when he’s about to get caught.

    Or maybe he’s just that irresponsible.

    Everything is too good to check with him, until somebody else checks.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  7. You know the saying (and Goebbels never said it): repeat a lie often enough, and it becomes the truth.

    The MSM-DNC Axis are aaallllll about that: optics, lies, and Teh Narrative.

    Simon Jester (608160)

  8. “Error-Prone Tommy Christopher Gets It Wrong Again On Steve Crowder In Error Filled Piece”

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  9. Anthony Weiner. Andrew Breitbart.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  10. Comment by Simon Jester (608160) — 12/17/2012 @

    You know the saying (and Goebbels never said it): repeat a lie often enough, and it becomes the truth.

    Goebbels wrote that in his diary in the 1920s, IIRC.

    He wasn’t talking about himself. He was talking about the story underlying Christianity.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  11. Tommy Xtopher might be the worst credentialed WH correspondent EVAH. Maybe he needs to check somebody’s ID.

    JD (661f29)

  12. union people are violent and thuggish

    mr crowder does not seem at all violent it’s just he has abnormally large upper arms

    happyfeet (5da4d0)

  13. kind of like xander on buffy

    happyfeet (5da4d0)

  14. I love these sorts of posts, but when I come back throughout the day I’m disappointed by the low number of comments.

    I think it’s because there’s nobody who wants to jump up here and defend TommyX.

    Where our trolls be at?

    Pious Agnostic (20c167)

  15. They’re all in Newtown CT covering the shooting for their MSM bosses.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  16. Tommy Xtopher is as openly vile as any MFM person around.

    JD (661f29)

  17. I’ve lost count maybe, but that’s at least three times he’s been taken in by the same mopes. That or something worse,

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  18. how embarrassing to have to be debunked at his age

    happyfeet (56cf8e)

  19. Therefore and thusly, this video is deceptively edited!

    I think it works the other way around. He (or whoever is feeding him this material – and could almost take it to the bank he is being spoonfed – and he almost as much said so)

    They start with the conclusion, and then they work backward to the premises.

    Conclusion: The union people did not thing wrong.

    Therefore Crowder is lying.

    If Crowder is lying the video is edited.

    Who’s the guilty party? Japanese spies? No. British double agents? No. That’s too Stalinist anyway. Drug dealers? No. Corrupt bankers who stuck people with overpriced mortgages? No. Hedge fund managers? No. Who can we place there??

    Well, Lee Stranahan was there. And he has some association, with someone whom we have previously established as the source of all right wing evil conspiracies, or something. I shortened this process maybe.

    It works better if the people who expose them become masters of deception. The same people or their associates will show up somewhere around and all they have to do is link them.

    Sammy Finkelman (c3c6b4)

  20. Sammy fascinates me, in much the same way that platypusses fascinate me.

    JD (318f81)

  21. Sammy has poisonous spurs?

    Pious Agnostic (20c167)

  22. platypusses are poisonous too don’t ever let one climb up in your lap

    happyfeet (5da4d0)

  23. yes what mr agnostic said

    happyfeet (5da4d0)

  24. Sammy,

    how can anyone defend rabbit punching someone from behind? edited or unedited?

    Tony Camagwhatever is going to get a slap on the wrist and many slaps on the back

    EPWJ (9b9c02)

  25. You mean someone is claiming the video Crowder posted to his yoothboob channel is doctored so as to not divulge him tossing the first punch even though he didn’t throw the first punch? No, who’d do that? /tic

    ignatius (e706b3)

  26. BTW, I always refer to youtube as yoothboob, casting no aspersions on Crowder at all, I’m a subscriber and fan. I’m only an occasional commenter, so, my support might not be obvious.

    ignatius (e706b3)

  27. I don’t get this tommy xtopher “fell for it” or was “taken in again” in the comments. Where’s the evidence that he’s anything other than a malignant troll who lies (badly) in the hopes of getting some love from his fellow whores in the MSM?

    jeannebodine (cca474)

  28. Frank Pastore, R.I.P.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  29. I did not know platypusses were poisonous.

    JD (318f81)

  30. Ok, take it or leave it, (and if this doesn’t make it through the comment moderation, no problem with me) but I’ll take your bait here:

    15.I love these sorts of posts, but when I come back throughout the day I’m disappointed by the low number of comments.

    I think it’s because there’s nobody who wants to jump up here and defend TommyX.

    Where our trolls be at?

    Comment by Pious Agnostic (20c167) — 12/17/2012 @ 2:57 pm
    ==================
    So, I have no stake in this except I am from Michigan, I was following this there when unfounded claims first appeared on the eclectablog.com who was the original source and picked it up before Fox or Breitbart were ever involved. emptywheel then copied some of those unfounded smears, adding her own jumps of logic and casting aspersions. Wonkette also picked it up. Tommy C appears to have given a hat tip to Wonkette at the end of his first article – Wonkette in fact had both Crowder’s video clip and Stranahans, but doesn’t really make it too clear which was what, or that Stranahan was on another side of the tent, and neither Lee nor Steve knew the other was there at the same time. My first hypothesis is that Tommy took a quick look at the Wonkette article, didn’t really watch the videos carefully and see that they were not connected in any way, but somehow in his over active mind made his baseless assumptions that conflated the two videos and therefore Lee was responsible for the Crowder video, and that Lee was aware about comments Crowder had made about the editing of the video, and his statement that in fact some non-union people were also doing some pushing, specifically pushing 2-3 people in particular in one nearly violent episode that was taking place immediately to the rear of Tony.

    I saw Tommy’s first unedited article even before Stranahan and thought to myself: oh boy, Tommy is really awful, can’t wait to see what happens here.

    So there is no defense of Tommy, and he deserves the most brutal fisking imaginable.

    But Crowder has also not been completely transparent at key moments in all this. Plus he clearly, admittedly, had an agenda going in, and admittedly got not only what he wanted, but better than he even expected, given that the crowd got riled up and there were people there who completely despised him.

    Another big criticism of the press was not to verify Steve’s role at the event: a Fox News contributor? No. a reporter? No. An activist journalist of sorts? probably and admittedly. A representative of the National Policy Group where he posts his videos as a member? don’t know. In touch with organizers in the tent who are also directors of this same policy group? Acquainted with Clint the hot dog stand guy who, along with his wife, is also a member of this same policy group? Or the guy in the Fedora hat who appears in the video during the melee and then again at the end of the video with Steve – who is also a director of this same policy group? And who was also at the first tent that was abandoned and came down. Or merely a tuned in citizen who was attempting to capture useful dialogue on video for use at some undetermined time and audience? We don’t know, because Steve himself has not made it clear, and has seemingly represented himself (or let himself be represented) in various roles. To me this is a key aspect of the story and it is still ambiguous. At it makes all the difference in accurate coverage and letting the viewer make judgments. Stever needs to state a clear position, even if it was at the time muddled with respect to roles.

    OK, to keep your interest, let me assert my hypothesis here, then describe it with sources to back up any evidence in favor: Steve Crowder did NOT have his back to Tony when Tony went down. Dana Loesch, Jim Treacher and others are mistaken – likely well intentioned, but simply mistaken. And I can nearly prove it, although perhaps only Tony and Steve himself know the truth.

    Both Tony and Steve have been quiet on this particular point, so we don’t know. I expect better from Steve, and his silence is mildly disturbing, although if he has now in fact filed a report, he may be restricted and restrained.

    But we already know the answer. From one of the video clips. Steve in fact was face to face with Tony when Steve’s associate (Randy?) and Tony who had MUTUALLY confronted each other were arguing. Recall that Randy? was first confronting both Tony and the hardhat to Tony’s left. Then Steve catches up. Steve actually was the first person to touch Tony when he put his right hand on Tony’s left shoulder very briefly, then removes it, and Tony himself doesn’t even seem to take notice. Perhaps no big deal, but perhaps this does help set off Tony immediately after. At this point Steve takes a slight counterclockwise turn, and says to Randy? something to the effect of “Randy, shoot from over there”, indicating just behind Steve and to Steve’s right, in fact, right where Tony fell. Randy? then immediately turns clockwise and moves past Steve and behind him (as can be seens in the blurring). Steve then again turns toward Tony and they continue to argue, face to face. And it is at this point that Tony takes his fall – while Steve does NOT have his back to Randy. There are at least 3 video clips from different angles, and all support this interpretaion, one clearly. (All posted at eclectablog.com, on youtube and elsewhere).

    There is a screen shot that demonstrates that Steve was facing Tony on Tony’s way down. I’ll link to it in a bit, but it is from the same stills tha Dana Loesch shows, only a couple of frames earlier. Tony is falling, Steve’s left arm is on Tony, either the back of Tony’s arm or perhaps on Tony’s back. Another person who is just left of Tony’s fall reaches out, and seems to touch both Tony and perhaps touch Steve’s extended arm when Tony is just about on the ground. Steve is bent over facing Tony, to reiterate. Steve immediately pulls his left arm back from the fully extended position, then raises both hands to demonstrate apparent nonconfrontational attitude at that point. Tony immediately rises and swings at Steve, apparently landing a good punch.

    Here’s the link. The person that spotted this posted it on reddit, and is in fact the son of the first union man that Steve interviews. Many of his theories and assertions are bunk, but he was the first to spot a couple of things, including this screen shot with Steve facing Tony on his way down:

    [the reddit user was mtalna, and he has now deleted all of his posts including his screen cap from slow motion – the remaining comments, without his are here:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/14p6ef/fox_news_is_airing_blatantly_doctored_footage_of/

    Apparently judgement got the best of him. But I was able to stop at the same frame, and I recall that it is in the same video that Dana Loesh used with her screen caps]

    As mentioned, mtalna is overboard on most of his defensive assertions, but this was a key catch.

    I’m being the Devil’s advocate here for the sake of the missing trolls to drive the right conversation, but our side [your side] needs to be forthright and honest on this point and stop asserting that Steve’s back was to Tony just before or while Tony was falling. It never was, and furthermore Steve’s arm is fully extending on Tony all the way down,as the screen shot demonstrates.

    A couple of other interested points. Can we deconstruct the pushing episode? I believe yes.

    Back to Tony and Hardhat Union Man standing to Tony’s left, while Randy? and Steve were arguing with them, Hardhat abruptly stops that conversation and takes a turn clockwise and looks to Tony’s immediate rear where all the pushing action is. Another camera angle, from inside the tent, captures this pushing match very well. Chris the union Gingerhair boy is a key instigator in all this from start to end, and if anyone ought to be found and disciplined, it is Chris. (Stranahan also has other video showing Chris confronting, trolling, antagonizing a row of police officers from another time in day that he posted – was not pretty)

    In the shoving match, indeed prior to Randy and Steve mutually confronting Tony and Hardhat, it was Chris who precipited this episode. From other clips, Chris had been doing some tent strap and stake manipulation, some tent pushing, and instigating others to chime in. Chris then started to rush at and kick the tent wall violently right in front of Tony and Hardhat, who were otherwise innocently chatting and not paying much attention to anything. Steve and Randy? were in the tent just before this, but exited the tent somewhere just to the left of Tony, Hardhat and Chris. Randy? apparently ducks under one or two tent straps in order to get to the spot where Chris is kicking the tent wall, and shouting, “is this acceptable” As soon as Tony and Hardhat see Randy? and Steve, they take a couple steps toward them to stop their progress. It is already determined that Tony and Steve already had a confrontation earlier, and Tony expressed in a way only a union man can that Steve ought to exit the scene and stop what he perceived as harrassment. There would be no dialogue for Steve’s camera discussing the issues today. Randy? appears at one point to have gotten right up to Chris at the tent, but his camera is low and pointing toward the ground. We then see him asking Tony “Why is this acceptable?” Tony, with hands in pocket, simply says “He didn’t hit anyone”, and so on. At the same time that all of this was occuring, two gentlemen who would be key players, who had until then been standing as silent observers a bit further away from the tent, walked up to the tent – one was intent on stopping Chris (let’s call him Randall), the other seemed to appear to be more in the role of ensuring there would be no more confrontations, calm it down (but perhaps not one of the monitors per se, although in other clips, he was usually standing with some union monitors. This is in fact the guy who grabbed Steve’s collar when Steve was backing off the slugfest and appeared to be entering the tent (let’s call him CollerMan. So Randall gets in front of Steve at the tent wall, and on Chris Gingerhair’s next running assault, Randall stops his progress, and in the next round, shoves him back very forcibly. It was precisely at this first run that Steve had put his hand on Tony’s shoulder, took a look to the left, a look to the right, a look behind him, saw the action and told Randy? to “Shoot from over there”, and Randy immediately complies, leaving Steve and Tony together facing each other. HardHat sees Randall pushing Chris back hard, turns, and appears to step in. In fact, everyone at that point seems to be watching the shoving match between Randall and Chris, and everyone seems to stop looking at Steve and Tony. In fact the camera from inside the tent gets a very good shot of this. One reason why all the video is moving off them at that point and noone catches a good shot of Tony’s fall.

    I see three possibilities.

    First, from careful review of the 3 or 4 video clips that were available that showed various aspects, my provocative hypothesis is that Steve did in fact decide to join the shoving at this point. At the same time that Randy in pushing Chris back, my hypothesis is that Steve laid his left hand on Tony’s left shoulder, and shoved him to Steve’s right. Tony went down either by the force of Steve’s push, shoving him off balance (probably not with a trip, but Steve would know how to do that too if he wanted), and the one video shows Steve’s left arm fully extended, on Tony’s back, all the way down, as caught in the screen shot — not easy to find, but it is there. So the Repblican BlueCollarCorner union supporter / union boss critiquer, who said to Steve on Hannity that he saw Steve pushing Tony down, with his hand on his back, he was right! And Steve, on Fox and later, did not deny it. He deflected. And he conflated with “WE were protecting the tent, it was a MELEE”, etc. Later Steve admitted on Canada Sun TV that he himself was shoving.

    In fact, other than minor skirmishes around the tent, and one or two other shoves not at this time and not at this same location, there is no other real shoving going on here! My hypothesis that Steve is truthful, but not fully, in stating that Randall was pushing Chris a couple of times and Steve pushed Tony once. My hypothesis is that Steve’s only push directly led to Tony’s fall. That’s all that is shown on any of the tapes. There were no other major shoving matches.

    So Tommy C is sort of right, buy only by mistake and not knowing what was going on, rather making unfounded assertions – but right on that point nonetheless.

    To finish the pushing sequence – one other interesting point. Chris has already pushed Randall once. Randall has already pushed Chris back. In the main video, when Steve is putting his right hand on Tony’s left shoulder, one can see Randall standing unmolested directly behind Tony and Hardhat. One can see Randall reach into his overcoat, right hand going into left side, and apparently grabbing something to pull it out. View is then blocked, but this is exactly when Chris first yells “He has a gun” and gets very agitated. This is when Hardhat turns toward Randall, and everyone starts looking there. End result is that Randall ends up fleeing inside tent, with Chris violently pushing him and shouting about the gun. In a couple of frames it appears that when Randall is being pushed into the tent, something might be in his hand, but blurry and cannot say dispositively.

    From the Crowder video and others, we then see Steve walk past Chris Ginger hair, still shouting about the gun. Some have stated, even Steve himself tentatively, that they were talking about Steve, that Steve had the gun, and that Chris wanted to attack Steve because Chris said “I have killed plenty of people with [i.e. who have] guns”. Steve was wrong, and others reporting this were wrong. They were talking about Randall.

    Randall also apparently appears in the video the next day with Clint the hot dog man and others who were assaulted and the news conference. Stranahan has posted the video of the guy who looks like Randall at this video conference, who complained about many things, including getting punched in the ribs on both sides of the body.

    Another piece of intrigue. Clint the hot dog man says that two masked people entered the tent, who he served, but then they put on their masks again – one a ski mask, the other apparently a Guy Fawkes masks that clint calls a devil’s maask. Clint says these same to people are the ones who overturned tables in the tent. In another video clip from people inside the tent just before the tent collapses, a man walks up and says “You need to get everyone out of there”, and attempts to explain the gravity of the situation what appears to me to be a realistic concern for safety. Can’t tell if a union man, mere observer, or someone who had been in the tent. The interesting point is that Electablog was pretty good at spotting this: a person in a Guy Fawkes mask now in the crowd walks up to this guy, apparently continuing a conversation they were just having, and says, “Yeah, I’m your granddaughter’s son”, then walks away again. Identify this man, and you may have one person in a Guy Fawkes mask that Clint might be able to confirm or deny was the man in the tent overturning tables.

    http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/12/tentgate-what-really-happened.html

    Eclectablog.com, who started a lot of the misleading Crowder assertions, has also backed off quite a bit on his initial assertions, and has in the meantime gone on the record to say whoever was involved in assaults or destruction of property, ought to be identified and disciplined. Perhaps he still suffers from some apparently conspirtorial thinking that some of these players are plants, but he has posted videos in the same links above that show a women in a red/burgundy overcoat who is unlatching several of the tent strap tie-downs, stating her reasons why – she is upset that the AFP group is promoting right-to-work which she views as an assault on worker’s rights, and wants to push back. This same video also captures 3-4 other perpetrators who seem a bit less intent, but indeed do unlatch a strap. At any rate, clearly not AFP false flag that was being touted for a couple fo days, and indeed these same videos seem to show a couple of elderly AFP gentlemen from the tent attempting to guard the stakes,and at one point even blocking the Red Coat lady’s hands,but they decide not to forcibly stop her or any of the others or create an escalation from their side.

    Also, I believe in the comment section of one of the Eclectablog posts, an AFP person (or someone in the tent) posted a clip – it doesn’t capture any of the above episodes in detail because the camera is too far away as she walks around – BUT it is a very useful clip because it establishes a TIMELINE for all the clips of interest! What is surprising is that this all occurred withing just a couple of minutes! This is one reason why my hypothesis is so skeptical of Steve’s and other’s telling of events without complete transparency and firm denials.

    The mitigating hypothesis is that Tony was pushed by someone right next to him, and fell into Steve, and Steve, rather than taking the opportunity to give Tony a little help out of the way and to the ground, just let Tony fall, trying to get out of the way himself. but Steve has not asserted this, nor denied his shove at this precises moment. The person who might have pushed Tony might have been from the fracus – the Chris-Randall shoving match, or even, theoretically the Hardhat standing next to Tony who is moving in that diretion – perhaps he met with the quite violent Chris-Randall scuffle and fell into Tony.

    My third hypothesis is unlikely – someone shoved Steve from behind into Tony – but at that point only his own cameraman was there, and he was already out of the way.

    If Tony if fact took a swing at Steve, missed and fell, I believe Steve would say this. He has not.

    Steve might have put himself into a trap by his own statements. He was the first person to touch Tony. Tony was NOT participating in the tent take-down directly or at any time. And according to my first hypothesis, Steve decided to join Randall in pushing people out of the way before Tony punched him. Steve’s only defence so far is that yes, there was a melee, and yes WE were pushing, and later, that yes indeed I myself did some shoving. But there is only one shove on any of the tapes – when Tony goes down, with the screen shot of Steve’s fully extended arm on Tony’s back just as he is hitting the ground, and Steve never had his back to Tony, despite well intentioned assertions to the contrary.

    So, let’s get the full story, and let the chips fall where they are bound to fall. Perhaps some other video exists that shows Tony’s fall in better perspective. Perhaps some other witness saw it, even though they were turning to look at Chris and Randall scuffle and the crowd is excited by the shouts of “Gun”.

    Apologies for length and lack of links, but those who are in the deep dive alredy have seen those and have them. Perhaps, given the complete picture, these clues can be tracked down and confirmed or debunked.

    Blog owner/moderator – post if you wish, block if you find wiser, post in sections, or edit at your will and leave whatever is interesting – but please do take note of a couple of the points and help the readers and commenters in this multifaceted mystery of seemingly inconsequential import but of national debate, even beyond our little problems here in Michigan. And for us all, do check emptywheel with some of her more comical jumps of logic, unfounded assertions and other noteworthy things of hers to avoid like the plague. Even though my hypothesis in some ways supports her assertions, she is insufferable. But (y)our side needs to stick to the facts.

    As a Michigander, I found this whole episode unfortunate for Michigan, clouding the real debate, further hurting our already bad image and drowning out a more positive message that will actually attract new business with the new right-to-work regime, if it lasts, – although it is quite entertaining and more seriously the media of all stripes got so much wrong here and need to be called on it, publically.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  31. Correction: in long screed (post #32) where I hypothesize Steve intentionally touched Tony two times:

    “At the same time that Randy in pushing Chris back, my hypothesis is that Steve laid his left hand on Tony’s LEFT shoulder, and shoved him to Steve’s right”

    should read “…Steve laid is left hand (or left arm) on (or around) Tony’s RIGHT shoulder and shoved him (or pulled him) toward Steve’s right…”

    and in summary:

    1) there does exist a screen shot that shows Steve was in fact facing Tony the entire time, all the way to the ground, and shows Steve’s fully extended left arm on Tony’s back just as he is about to hit the ground – contrary to assertions that Steve had his back to Tony when Tony fell – which is contradicted, and although well intentioned, simply wrong.

    2) One video appears to show the man in the scuffle pulling out something from his overcoat when Chris immediately starts yelling “Gun”

    3)Is the guy that Clint the hot dog man overturning tables the same guy in the Guy Fawkes mask who identifies himself to a gentleman on video as “Yeah I am your granddaughter’s son, That’s who I am”

    4)The person who is unlatching most of the tent straps that caused the fall is a woman in a red jacket who is clearly shown close up in the face. Who is this mystery woman?

    5) Did the guy who allegedly had the gun show up with Clint the hot dog man the next day at their press conference that Stranahan posted?

    4)A clip showing all of the key events exists – shot at a distance to each one, but clearly establishes a timeline – this all happened with a couple of minutes!

    5) The instigator for all of this, and much more, was actually Chris the Gingerhair union boy. While Tony wasn’t really paying attention to any of this until Chris started it and Steve and his pals then tried to stop it, Tony takes the fall and Chris goes scott free!

    6) everyone in media has given Steve Crowder a pass on what his actual role was during the larger event, and why he turned up at the event in the first place. Several potential roles are conflated – both by Steve and everyone who has reported on it. And it matters.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  32. everyone in media has given Steve Crowder a pass on what his actual role was during the larger event

    Complete and utter nonsense.

    As for your assertion that Crowder was facing Tony and had his hands on him throughout the course of Tony falling, apparently your eyes see something that others don’t.

    Thanks for your perspective. Interesting.

    JD (318f81)

  33. One other interesting point that is a lot of the initial misreporting occured when ectablog.com posted the interview with the union man claiming that he saw AFP people taking down their own tent, dismantling their own setup, and that therefore he didn’t think the union did it. This is what was picked up by Marcy Wheeler and emptywheel, then Wonkette (among others), the TommyX.

    Early on their appears to be a lot of confusion. But to his credit (despite all of his other over the top assertions), mtalna, the guy on reddit, was the first to point out that there wasn’t this one tent. There were actually two tents. I don’t think many people saw his posts, so everyone was talking about two different events, and conflating the two, and from this came most of the false assumptions.

    mtalna has now deleted his reddit posts (if I am seeing it correctly), although the shell of the thread remains. He is also the son of the the first union man that Crowder interviewed.

    But this explains a lot. When first following this I myself was pretty confused for a day until I myself discovered that there was in fact not one tent, but two, and that AFP did in fact abandon and dismantle part of their set up and moved everything to a single tent.

    But perhaps more newsworthy, there is a video shot on the steps of the capitol where a high ranking union leader (Trumpka) is bragging about the take-down of the first tent, and encourages people to to make sure the second one gets taken out. It was only after this rabble rousing that the big crowd surrounded the second tent, and eventually loosened the straps enough that it came down.

    This ought to be a story – compelling video right from the steps of the capitol with responsible union man making the call.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  34. And Weiner was hacked, thanks for playing,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  35. I am generally leery of people that try to tell me that I did not see what I saw. And people that attempt to make rather simple situations far more complex than necessary.

    JD (318f81)

  36. R.I.P. Senator Daniel Inouye

    Icy (75ccb6)

  37. Apologies for any vague references to source of video that shows Crowder’s arm fully extended, and demonstrates that Crowder was always facing Tony.

    It was Crowder’s own video, the longer version, shown on Fox. Here’s the version shown on Hannity, at 1:54 with commentary by the BlueCollarCorner Rebublican:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=96w0c3v1Pqk&NR=1

    Here’s the O’Reilly version at 1:44 http://video.foxnews.com/v/2031772903001/

    One needs to quickly click off and on to see it in a frame. There are actually 2 or 3 frames that show it. After I few attempts in my browser, I get it to stop in the right frame. mtalna, who apparently had some slo-mo and step frame ability, captured and posted them.

    This guy gets some things wrong, but does walk through the argument and Steve’s reaction and not-full-denial:
    http://www.newshounds.us/steven_crowder_doesn_t_deny_pushing_to_the_ground_the_man_who_later_punched_him_12122012

    Here’s Steve’s later partial hang out, admitting a bit more on Canadian TV that not many people saw:
    http://blogs.canoe.ca/lilleyspad/general/videdo-steven-crowder-speaks-to-coren-about-his-union-dust-up/

    Similarly here is another angle for reference:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNbL3_zhRWQ&feature=plcp

    There is at least one more video that captures another perspective, especially showing how Steve puts his hand on Tony’s shoulder – will post if can find it again.

    Ditto for the clip that ties all these separate videos together – doesn’t show a lot of detail, but captures some good voice and establishes the timeline. Will post if I can find again.

    For reference, again the post that started it all talking about tent takedowns not realizing it was two separate events, with two different tents, and conflated the two separate stories causing all the initial confusion:
    http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/12/tentgate-what-really-happened.html
    …but where he then backs off on many of the conflated assertions, but delves into the other mysteries of: who is the Guy Fawkes guy (I’m your granddaughter’s son, That’s who I am”; who is the red coat lady who unlatched most of the tent straps?; Who are all these guys who are part of the National Policy group here that Steve belongs to, and what was Steve’s role with them, if anything.

    Many media have asserted various roles for Steve, and it is still amgiguous or unclear which hat he was wearing during the events. Some have asserted he was there as a Watter’s World like Fox man on consignment – he wasn’t. Some has asserted he was a Breitbart reporter. He wasn’t. Some have asserted he was part of the Breitbart Lives army, which Steve sometimes claims to be in general, but what was his role here in all of the Breitpart reporting (news site, blogs, twitter of other Breitbart reporters, etc (he’s both source and reporter). Some have asserted that Steve was part of the National Policy group, whose members keep popping up in the videos and news conferences. They can’t all be right. Steve’s statement of which hat he was wearing has shifted a bit depending on which audience he was talking to. This has created both a lot of confusion, and a lot of strong reaction from one side or another — all sides! — in putting out their narratives from their perspectives. This is one aspect that needs to be explored and further challenged, and not shrugged off, IMO.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  38. Many media have asserted various roles for Steve, and it is still amgiguous or unclear which hat he was wearing during the events. Some have asserted he was there as a Watter’s World like Fox man on consignment – he wasn’t. Some has asserted he was a Breitbart reporter. He wasn’t. Some have asserted he was part of the Breitbart Lives army, which Steve sometimes claims to be in general, but what was his role here in all of the Breitpart reporting (news site, blogs, twitter of other Breitbart reporters, etc (he’s both source and reporter). Some have asserted that Steve was part of the National Policy group, whose members keep popping up in the videos and news conferences. They can’t all be right. Steve’s statement of which hat he was wearing has shifted a bit depending on which audience he was talking to. This has created both a lot of confusion, and a lot of strong reaction from one side or another — all sides! — in putting out their narratives from their perspectives. This is one aspect that needs to be explored and further challenged, and not shrugged off, IMO.

    Good Allah. It does not matter. He asked civil questions, he had the temerity to question a union protestor, and in doing so, got punched repeatedly by a union thug.

    I think it was the Jedi shoulder touch that Crowder used to make him collapse.

    JD (318f81)

  39. Correction: This:
    Is the guy that Clint the hot dog man overturning tables the same guy in the Guy Fawkes mask who identifies himself to a gentleman on video as “Yeah I am your granddaughter’s son, That’s who I am”

    Should read “Yeah I am your daughter’s grandson, That’s who I am”

    Retraction: My hypothesis #1, that the Fox video shows evidence that Steve pushed or pulled Tony to the ground — in fact DOES NOT show that evidence. The screen shot I saw at first appears to show that, but in fact does not.

    For the record, many other’s of good faith have also commented or said that they say this, and it is a bit tricky.

    What I saw in the screen shot was thought to be Steve’s black armsleeve fully extended and still touching Tony on his way down to the ground, including his hand on either Tony’s shoulder or back. And a 2nd person appearing to touch Tony’s back and/or pushing Steve’s hand away. Not the case after all.

    Instead the black armsleeve is actually Tony’s arm still hanging in the air to Steve’s left, extending perfectly to Steve’s shoulder, that in some stopped frames looks like it is Steve’s arm. But it’s not. It’s Tony’s arm. And the only hand near Tony is the second union guy who appears to be attempting to break Tony’s fall or hold him up.

    In the screen shots and clips I was looking at, it was a bit blurred, but in another copy of the video it is more clear, and I was mistaken. My perception of what was happening, in part due to the flattened 3D and the quick movements simply wasn’t correct.

    It is still true that Steve laid hand on Tony at least once, and perhaps twice. But Tony didn’t seem to take notice, so no conclusions can be drawn. He was not pushing Tony when he did this.

    There are still two videos that show what happened that (after a couple hours of looking for them again) I can no longer find. One is a second camera just behind Steve, a bit to his right that better showed his interaction with Tony – I cannot remember if it also had the Tony’s fall.

    The other one I can no longer find is a video taken from inside the tent showing the shoving match between Randall (the guy allegedly “with a gun”) and Chris, the instigator. It has a very clear view on the sequence where Randall shoves Chris back, immediately to the rear of Tony. When Chris violently attacked, Randall pushed Chris back out of the tent quite forcibly, like a lineman pushing the opposing tackle back 5 yards right into the quarterback. I have a recollection of what this shows – he was pushed right into the area where Tony stood, behind him, and in the other clips we an see Hardhat guy next to Tony turn to that and he himself get involved. BUT, since my perception has already been proven wrong once, I hesitate to repeat what I believe or remember what I saw. Hopefully this was one of Crowder’s cameramen, or someone working on the deep dive has a copy of it, because it really did show very clearly the situation behind Tony, and may clearly show whether that scuffle hit or missed Tony, and is the key to the proof of what really happened.

    Crowder tweets that he has many more video clips he is about to release. Hopefully one of them shows Tony’s fall from another perspective.

    I do not understand why Steve doesn’t simply clearly state that he did not shove Tony to the ground, but instead is hiding in between almost Clintonesue legaleezery and is neither quite confirming nor denying.

    End result is that none of the clips yet show the cause and initial sequence of Tony’s fall.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  40. Guest,

    Why don’t you have a look at my latest post, part 3.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  41. 1) It turns out the Guy Fawkes mask guy didn’t flip over this table, but here’s the guy that did:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_nuOOgEIR4

    2)Can’t vouch for the commentary, but here is a really good side-by-side of two clips running simultaneously that much better shows what was happening in front of and behind Tony.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57bd1cvpLTo
    Unfortunately still does not show clearly the cause and start of Tony’s fall, and what Tony and Steve were actually doing at that point.

    What we really need is a quad-screen with all 4 known clips, including the one with perspective shot out of inside of tent showing Chris getting thrown back toward the rear of Tony.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  42. Another view of Crowder at end of fight:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlmig7yZK-k

    It shows the very end of fight, restrainst of Tony from another angle, Crowder being collared, and Crowder and cameraman entering tent – at which time it collapsed and everyone is trapped inside.

    Much more intense that other views from the outside.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  43. There’s another big story here of instigation and union violence.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjRfFZk3Gtg

    A video that has entire sequence, all within 4-5 minutes. Gives the best feel yet to the mayhem and melee about to happen, including Crowder reeling from blows and the collapse of tent, and shows that all during this time they were attempting to get a large number of elderly people out of the tent.

    At:

    Start: Red Coat lady who unfastened many of the last straps before tent fell. With security people and AFP people attempting to hold the fort.

    1:00 “We need to get the cops here NOW!”

    1:20 Steve confronting big, irritated union guy who tells Steve to “Get out of my face NOW” and much worse (he’s a union griever, and as local council member in his town, subsequently had to give an interview on local TV to explain himself! where he says he knows it doesn’t look pretty, but he’s just doing his job and “you love me or you hate me”)

    2:04 “Randall” the “guy with the gun” helping a feeble old lady away from the tent (seen behind man in red jacket”

    2:08 Calls for the tent to come down

    2:09 Crowder back at tent with arm up filming

    2:10 Chris instigating to loosen a strap, but thwarted.

    2:18 The CollarGuy (who later collared Steve)steps in to deescalate confrontation with Chris: “Guys, guys, guys”, apparently taking a role of keeping the peace

    2:20 A peacemaker attempting to calm the situation, telling an AFP supporter to “Take it easy, let’s keep it peaceful. You know what, if they would get in your face, you wouldn’t keep it peaceful, right? The supporter says, That’s why I’m trying to stay back, I understand…”

    3:00 Union gets inside tent. Cries of “Time to go. Time to go!” and elderly people start streaming out of tent

    3:05 Fights starts.

    3:10 Crowder reels from Tony’s 4th punch. CollarMan is observing, but can’t stop it. Instead he is following Chris around, keeping an eye on him.

    3:19 Tony restrained.

    3:26 CollarMan, in one motion, pushes Chris out of the way with his left hand, and collars Steve with his right hand. I surmise that he sees his role as some sort of discipliner.

    3:28 CollarMan is constrained by Steve’s helpers and they proceed inside tent.

    3:50 Within 20 seconds tent begins to collapse.

    4:15 Panic, wailing, screems as people are trapped inside.

    4:53 Chris already prancing a victory dance while shouts of “People are still inside!”

    ———————————–

    It would be a fine story to see this written up as a blog post, with appropriate narrative to make a point, pehaps including a couple of other videos showing the terror, thuggery or violence.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  44. Dramatic and violent union attacks inside the tent.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBOmpDjxWW0

    AFP supporters are attempting to hold the gate at the start of the video.

    Some people outside the tent are being pushed around and are fearful, with no where to hide, and a group runs inside the tent.

    Immediately a thuggish union man charges into the tent at 0:10, pushing several AFP supporters violently, striking them, and shouting “We’re having a Union Strike! a Union Strike!”

    At 0:35, union people are pulling down support poles, AFP attempt to save the fort. Melee.

    More panic and uncertainty – some try to leave, others rush to the poles, many seem stunned.

    At 1:00, tables are overturned (hear crash) and the two union men (with round white badges) that did it continue marching through tent punching fist in air and shouting “Get Out”. at least one of them have a very identifiable hat.

    With these videos it seems more clear what Steve and others were attempting to do in the final minutes – protect the elderly, feeble women and supporters under violent attack in the tents.

    Thereby justifying any blocking or confrontation on their part.

    I don’t think the public at large realizes this. Some have seen videos of the crowd from the outside, shouting and cheering, but the visceral terror of direct attack is only shown in these clips.

    And some, like Thom Hartmann, here, were even claiming that the tent take down was staged and done by AFP itself, faked. Tommy Christopher completely ignores and blames Steve Crowder instead for instigating the crowd and creating a scene.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwxMS1GrZMk&feature=endscreen

    A montage of some of these clips spliced together would be a devastating portrait of what a few thugs were doing and how dramatic the situation truly was.

    And why did the State Police have no monitoring or presence whatsoever?

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  45. The unrelenting instigators:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKKNiOeqMwk

    At:

    1:05 Chris shouts, “Let’s tear this m-f-er down”. Finding no takers, he walks around to the other side of the tent and begins a brawl.

    1:42 The lady in the red coat WILL NOT BE DETERRED in taking down the straps, despite resistance. She resists pleas for cooperation, begging, moving blocks, and in other clips, some physical restraint. She’s pissed, and at one point indicates that she’s doing it in the memory for her grandfather. Than’t the old Michigan union spirit and unrelenting determination I used to know when I was growing up. They knew how to strike back. Only after these straps were taken down did the tent fall

    4:00 Tent is down. “Another union victory!”, “Let’s help these people out of here”, i.e. scab cleansing.

    Vandalism continues.

    4:35 Clint the hot dog man stands in shock.

    5:00 Verbal abuse. “Get out of here! This is what happens… this is Our House”

    6:06 Union members pretending they are making a rescue as their “union rule” to cut up the tent, and eventually give away as souvenies. “That’s right” Getting the job done. Union style. They peer under the tent for a second as if looking for something, all theater, then turn and walk away.

    7:03 Chris still shouting obscenities and fighting with AFP folks.

    End “They all talk about responsibility. That was real responsibility” Job done.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  46. Great angle on Tony’s upper cut and gut punch to Steve, but first:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpINLF_fnIk

    0:00 Tent is about to go down, elderly people making there way out the opening, including lady with a walker.

    0:10 Two union thugs overturn coffee table

    0:12 Clint’s hot dog table still standing, he’s still serviing! That’s the dedication to his customers he’s known for.

    0:15 Thugs warn people to get out.

    0:35 Steve takes a head shot, reels, upper cut, then but punch.

    Tony looks determined and like he really doesn’t want to stop, and a look of disappointment crosses his face when he is restrained.

    One gets the impression that his determination is moer visceral than merely punching out a guy who might have pushed him down. More like Tony will no longer bear this smart alec, he’s had enough of this guy’s arrogance and is going to teach him a good lesson.

    And it looks like Tony has done this sort of thing before. Not a prize fighter, but knows how to pack some punch.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  47. AFP Supporter asked State Trooper to come. He says they refused.

    Listen at 3:50. Why did the State Police refuse to monitor and protect?

    The rest is the scene in the tent shortly before it went down,

    Use of loudig beating drums is quite effective in generating a sense of doom, just like in the olden days when war drums were used to good effect in instilling a sence of impending dread.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  48. With Link now:

    50.AFP Supporter says he tried to get State Troopers to come. He says they refused.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7vgG4UbOXI

    Listen at 3:50.

    Why did the State Police refuse to monitor and protect, and only have any presence after the tent was taken down?

    The rest is the scene is in the tent shortly before it went down.

    Use of loudly beating drums is quite effective in generating a sense of doom, just like in the olden days when war drums were used to good effect in instilling a sence of impending dread.

    Added: The State Trooper cavalry eventually meandered over. Go to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsODewu8E8U

    8:00 “Scab built tent”, and tent comes down. Another scuffle captured.

    9:00 Chris taunts leader of AFP who says “Let’s have a civil discussion” Chris is not convinced.

    9:20 Some clips of State Police “securing” the remains of the tent, and Troopers on horseback.

    And Troopers on horseback meander in at 5:30 on this clip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1xyIWP-GMw

    (parts 2 and 3 also have lots of clips of the crowds and “discussions” from the day, perhaps the sort of “dialogue” crowder was hoping to capture on film.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  49. A series of clips of the AFP news conference the next day, with several people trapped in the tent or melee, including elderly women, a man in a wheelchair, Clint the hotdog man, and Randall, the guy who was helping elderly woman and who Chris was shouting at and shoving as “the guy with the gun”

    http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHupOY_GE0XmASlrx0KVWvw?feature=watch

    (scroll to clips uploaded Dec 12 and 13)

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  50. Great comments, Guest.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  51. [For reference here so all these comments on video library are in one place (Also posted this same comment in Part2 2,3]

    Much of Crowder’s defense and Tommy Christopher’s now-to-be-documented unfounded assertions depend on the narrative.

    Crowder says “that was a melee” and that the union folks were attacking and ransacking the tent with elderly people and women inside, and he and a group of people were basically attempting to hold the fortress.

    TommyX not only has a blind eye to that and otherwise downplays it, he even engaged in the “Wheelerization” of it, giving some credence that it was all just a set-up and instigation or provocation, and any reports of union violence ought to be discounted.

    For reference all in one place, here in the comments at end of Part 1 starting at comment 44:

    http://tinyurl.com/cy442jp

    1) Another view of end of Crowder fight, but showing nearly immediate tent collapse and intensity of situation – and in clips in comments #46 and #49 showing very clear views of the fight from other angles, including melee inside the tent both before and after the fight (and really good shots of Tony’s uppercut and gut punches as an added attraction).

    2) Violent union “strikes”, sometimes shocking against elderly people are shown especially well in clips in comments #46 and #47 and they also show the context of other scuffles that were happening both inside and outside the tent in the 3-4 minutes in which the fight occurred.

    3) Several of the dozen clips in the ten comments from #43-52 show aspects of the melee, especially the confusion and dire situation in the tent, at a couple of points nearly frantic with screams and terror – what Crowder is claiming to defend, what Tommy and Wheeler discount or ignore.

    Note 1: I have retracted some of my earlier comments on that thread. I saw a screen shot (and video) of what appeared to be Crowder’s arm extended on to Tony’s back as Tony was going down. Like the Republican BlueCollarCorner union guy on Hannity with Crowder who asserted that Crowder had pushed Tony to the ground, I also perceived that, but it is wrong. It is not Steve’s arm, it is Tony’s arm.

    Note 2: That’s all context before, during and after the fight, and clips of the end of the fight, but none show the crucial moment when Tony fell. I have a distinct recollection of two specific clips that do show Tony at the moment that he fell. I can no longer find them on the web. Will the owners’ repost them for all to find again and see?

    The first clip was a clear shot from the inside of the tent that showed Chris the Gingerhair union instigator charging the tent and the guy in the overcoat he was pushing, who I call “Randall”, who Chris said “has a gun” and Chris has “killed plenty of people with [i.e. who have] a gun”. It then shows “Randall” pushing Chris like a lineman pushes a tackle back 5 yards into a quarterback – all in the area directly to the rear of Tony. In other clips we can see that the man next to Tony, and others, react to it. It may show “evidence” relating to the fall of Tony. I cannot recall clearly, so it may not.

    The second clip was a second camera taking shots just to the right and rear of Steve and Tony, and was a very clear shot of them just before and at the moment of Tony’s fall, and after Tony’s fall. I have a very clear impression in my mind what this video showed because I watched those few seconds over and over and stepped it to see the detail and get it right. However, given my perception was wrong about the other clip of Tony’s fall (that I have retracted), I am reluctant to state what I perceived and believe to have seen. I will state that I my recollection is that Steve did two things and Tony did one thing. None of which are threatening per se beyond the voices where we can hear Tony’s name-calling and Steve’s questioning the acceptableness of the union attacks on the tent that we can hear in other clips. But they do gives clues to what is about to happen next. I recall (but could be wrong) that I was not able to determine from this clip what actually causes Tony’s fall, or how he initially fell, because when Tony goes down he is obscured by Steve and perhaps others standing in front of the camera.

    I cannot confirm this, but my impression at the time was that these clips were shot by people in Crowder’s “Crew”, that is, from the 3-4-5 phone camera guys that were sort of hanging together and sometimes seen and heard near each other in many of the clips. I might be wrong. If anyone is watching and knows where these clips are, would be a fine thing to see them posted here.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  52. [For reference here so all these comments on video library are in one place (Also posted this same comment in Part2 2,3]

    I should add, regarding the “missing video” that I refer to as the “second [missing] clip” at the end of prior comment:

    It was a close up and clear shot of both Tony and Steve, without any obstruction up to and including the point of Tony’s fall. It also appeared to show the moment of Tony’s fall with part’s of Tony still in the frame, and Steve in the frame during the fall.

    It also showed “Randall” behind Tony at a couple of points, including during some or all of his pushing match with Chris that was just to the rear of Tony.

    I might be wrong, but my impression of this clip I can no longer find on the web had a better resolution, perhaps a professional camera, not merely a phone camera.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  53. [For referene, reposted here, from comment in Part 5 on union intimidation]

    Here is a very descriptive firsthand account of the Mob, union marshal tactics, their theater and intimidation tactics, other peace teams, the attacks (including links and attacks on other individuals), tent collapse with, if not union coordinated, certainly mob orchestration, lack of policing. Lots more there.

    Including Lisa Fithian inside the Capitol building with her Occupy protestors, with collaboration with sitting Michigan House Democrats, where she retreated for her breaks. Lots of links too.

    http://www.therightscoop.com/special-report-the-right-to-work-demonstrations-in-lansing/

    The Mob

    “One of the guys with me, Rich, told me that the people in the neon yellow and orange security vests are union marshals, and have no authority at all. They control the crowds on behalf of the unions. I would observe their tactics the rest of the day.

    “Because the Americans For Prosperity tent was the only shelter, food and rest area on the lawn, amidst thousands of angry union members, it became a magnet for union bully tactics. Union captains and marshals are paid by the unions to encourage intimidation while seemingly providing “security” for the masses. With a massive police force protecting the Capitol, these paid security teams as well as the Michigan Peace Team roamed the lawn. The Michigan Peace Team is a group of people who advocate non-violence, but are less effective than the security teams.

    “As the morning wore on, news that the Michigan House would vote on the bills between noon and 2. As more and more union members crowded the front of the AFP tent, union members advanced upon us shouting obscenities and calling us names. The captains and marshals stood directly in front of us, in front of our tent, with their backs toward us, facing the angry mob. But, instead of making a chain amongst them to drive the union members back away from the tent, they incrementally stepped backward, causing the union members to push us more and more into the tent. With plenty of room on either side of the tent, the actions of the captains and marshals were deliberate, causing increasing union intimidation. At some point, the Michigan Peace Team came to us and told us to leave because we were causing aggravation to the mob by being there. It would be too much to ask, I suppose, for them to get the police involved. The idea that we provoked the mob was ridiculous, and I took video of union members closing in on us with the help of captains and marshals. Their mentality, “many are stronger than one alone,” worked well when physical aggression was the means by which they accomplished their task. Physical force works perfectly with their philosophy and world view”

    Occupy

    “After the bills were passed, and the crowds headed to throng the George Romney building where the Governor has his office, I made my way to the Capitol building. After writing about Lisa Fithian, well-known Occupy Wall Street activist/trainer last week, I recognized her on Floor 1 of the rotunda, leading college students in chants and a sit-in. She fell to the ground and led the children in wailing and moaning. I could not get onto Floor 1 of the rotunda at all because the police would not allow it.

    How do you like that? Not a cop to be found protecting us from a mob, but Occupy Wall Street received police protection and plenty of space to lay down and have nice snapshots of the gorgeous iron dome. As I recorded, Fithian took a break and walked down the hall to relax in the office of House Minority Leader, Richard E. Hammel, Democrat.”

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  54. Another side of the story – the sometimes apparently ‘odd ‘ politics that don’t quite fit the conventional mould.

    We all saw the Republican BlueCollarCorner pro-union / critical of union leadership guy on Hannity with Crowder.

    Here is a clip of union men who support right-to-work in Michigan.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uIH7NWw2IqI

    It was because of some of these outspoken union guys that the right-to-work proposals were pushed in the first place (along with the big union push to enshrine unionism and collective bargaining in the Michigan constitution, which dramatically failed in the November election, despite the electorate voting for the Democratic President by over 10 point landslide).

    The Republican governer Snyder “supports” unions, and these sorts of guys, buy insists that unions need to attract their votes by providing services of use and values to the actual members.

    And yes, it was Republican George Romney who legalized public unions in Michigan in the first place.

    Guest (ce6e2f)

  55. Eight right-to-work protesters arraigned in Lansing on felony charges:

    http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2012/12/8_right-to-work_protesters_fro.html#incart_river

    These were from the capital occupation a week before the Dec 11 union protests, and involved a more dramatic attempt to crash the senate chambers while in session.

    Will union violence and destruction of private property from the Dec 11 tent take-down episode be prosecuted? At that event, no police in sight.

    Guest (ce6e2f)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.3225 secs.