Patterico's Pontifications

12/12/2012

Rewriting History on the Attack on Steven Crowder and the Relevance of Kimberlin/Rauhauser Tactics

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:58 am

Last night I blogged about a portion of an Empty Wheel post on the assault on Steven Crowder in Lansing. Today I want to discuss the way it fits into a disturbing trend, in which politican partisans rewrite history for a gullible audience more interested in a politically convenient narrative than in fact.

For over two years now, I have watched as Brett Kimberlin, Neal Rauhauser, and a small band of confederates have literally rewritten history regarding anybody who happened to report on them. In coming days and weeks I will document this revisionism point by point, but for now it is enough to note certain trends:

  • The targets of the smear campaign are reporters.
  • The smear artists attack the reporter in some over the top way.
  • Then the smear artists portray the reporter as the aggressor.
  • The smear artists work to make the narrative political, because they know that politics causes people to ignore facts and shut off the “objectivity” portions of their brain.

You see precisely this effort at work with the Crowder incident. The actual story yesterday is that Steve Crowder went to cover a union protest, and was attacked by union members. It was caught on video.

So what does Marcy Wheeler of Empty Wheel do? Immediately accuse the accusers. She writes a post titled “Breitbart Folks Appear to Fake Violence in Lansing.” She immediately labels the destruction of a tent as a probable false flag, and then updates with: “Here’s a picture of Steve Crowder deliberately provoking peaceful union people from before he was claiming to have been attacked.” This update was made before video evidence emerged that proved Crowder was attacked.

Keep in mind: Crowder has actually been repeatedly punched at this point. But literally before any actual evidence is known, Wheeler is smearing Crowder, labeling him the aggressor, and turning it into a political issue that totally rewrites the narrative. She declares with heavy sarcasm:

I assume, given that the cops say the tent was no big deal and no arrests have been made, Crowder did not share his accusations of assault with any of the hundreds of cops standing right near by.

Now she’s committed. It doesn’t matter what the facts are, you see — from this point on she will have to spin anything that contradicts her set belief.

And as facts come in, and a video emerges showing Crowder was attacked, she dismisses it all with an airy wave of the hand: HEAVILY EDITED!!!!1!!

Here’s Steve Crowder’s very obviously heavily edited video.

Given that there were witnesses to the early confrontation, where Crowder was clearly inciting people, it amuses me he tried to make a video showing the same people.

And what supports the headline, that Breitbart folks apparently tried to manufacture this? Unnamed witnesses.

All this, in spite of the fact that witnesses say the Americans for Prosperity people were trying to provoke union members to violence, and witnesses reportedly saw AFP people loosening the ropes on the tents so they would come down. And in spite of the fact the place was crawling with cops (shipped in from around the state) who didn’t do see anything amiss. (Cops are as we speak arresting people engaging in civil disobedience at the Romney Building, where the Governor’s office is.)

Sadly, many of MI’s local journalists don’t know enough to distrust anything a Breitbart affiliate says and have repeated the violence narrative, based on such discredited sources.

They tried to do this to Breitbart himself. Remember? In Nevada, union people threw eggs at him and claimed he did it, and tried to have him arrested.

It didn’t work, because there was a video.

But it was the same playbook.

Stacy McCain gets it:

After yesterday’s incident in which labor union activists tore down an Americans for Prosperity tent in Lansing and sucker-punched Stephen Crowder, this headline zoomed up the Memorandum aggregation:

Breitbart Folks Appear to Fake Violence in Lansing

Huh? This was a decidedly odd piece of blogging: The claim that somehow the union thug clobbering Crowder was part of a right-wing hoax, based on such “evidence” as the event having been reported by “James O’Keefe’s buddy” Lee Stranahan — because, hey, if anybody at Breitbart thinks it’s actually news, that means it must be phony, right?

Also, the video was edited. Anybody who edits a video is obviously engaged in some kind of evil conspiracy.

What the hell is this silly gibberish? Are these people crazy?

No, they’re engaged in a systematic effort to create confusion and discourage mainstream journalists from reporting on the incident.

“Accuse the accusers!” Re-arrange the narrative of events so that a story that obviously makes the Left look bad is, instead, a story about the Right unjustly trying to make the Left look bad.

There is a larger story to the Kimberlin/Rauhauser narrative. They believe they have successfully rewritten history regarding the people reporting on Brett Kimberlin. Now they are taking their tactics big-time. It’s no coincidence that Karoli Kuns, who has been pushing the rewritten Rauhauser narrative on the Kimberlin story, is pushing Wheeler’s revisionism as well.

We have to keep an eye on these folks.

I’ll continue to do so.

317 Responses to “Rewriting History on the Attack on Steven Crowder and the Relevance of Kimberlin/Rauhauser Tactics”

  1. Ding.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  2. Hey, we get to read crap like that with every illman comment. Oh, and Marcy Wheeler writes like a sixth grader.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  3. Tillman is banned. Not sure how he got around the filter but ignore him if he shows up.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  4. I remember Wheeler, mendoucheous twatwaffle, from that radio show.

    JD (318f81)

  5. Thank God. Too bad Marcy Wheeler couldn’t be banned for poor writing skills.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  6. The punch is real. Rather, the punches are real, and the guy collaring him from behind; tag teaming him.

    What “provocation” is sufficient for that?

    A question? An accusation? Barring a ‘your mama”, an unprovoked and unjustified threat to violence, or clear self-defense would excuse it legally.

    You can’t be here. You can’t question us. You can’t talk to me. You like right-to-work – POW take that.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  7. Michigan, Benghazi, etc., etc. it is all the same animal. Orwell would be mortified…..

    robertl (5331e2)

  8. rather, nothing would excuse it legally.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  9. Why would the press play this game? Doesn’t liberty matter to anyone anymore?

    SarahW (b0e533)

  10. 9.Why would the press play this game? Doesn’t liberty matter to anyone anymore?

    Journalism, or is it journolism, died a few years ago.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  11. Tillman is banned.

    I personally find that observing the mindset of someone like him is interesting. However, if such a guy is much older than a teenager or, say, a 35-year-old, that’s when it becomes pathetic. But still worth scrutinizing, nonetheless. For the same reason that witnessing a person with bizarre mental traits (eg, extreme OCD or paranoia) can be a learning experience.

    Mark (3617ce)

  12. Crowder told Sean Hannity last night that he went to Lansing to show unions are inherently violent. Let that sink in.

    Upon arrival, he antagonized people who were there protesting right to work legislation, which will hit them in the pocket book. He did so with a camera in tow, run by Lee Stranahan.

    Instead of publishing the video in full he took 3 hours to edit it. Because of the edits, we do not get to see what happens before the man gets up off the ground and punches Steven.

    Crowder does not report the battery to police at the Capitol even though there were 350 of them within blocks, and he had video to prove it; nor did choose to file a police report/a complaint.

    Instead on Fox & Friends he threatens to press charges *IF* the man won’t fight him. This tells me Crowder is more interested in attracting attention than seeking justice for assault and battery.

    The video shows no evidence of who worked to make it collapse.

    Nancy (2f9e9d)

  13. Thank you for bleating out your talking points, and supporting violence, Nancy.

    JD (318f81)

  14. Crowder told Sean Hannity last night that he went to Lansing to show unions are inherently violent. Let that sink in.

    And those union thugs just could not control themselves? Or Crowder attacked their fist with his head?

    The only people that will be hit in the pocketbook are tye union officials. Nice meme.

    JD (318f81)

  15. Instead on Fox & Friends he threatens to press charges *IF* the man won’t fight him. This tells me Crowder is more interested in attracting attention than seeking justice for assault and battery.

    It tells me that maybe Crowder wants to face his attacker man-to-man and settle their dispute honorably without getting the law involved.*

    *I realize that I used several concepts (man-to-man, honor and no gov’t involvement) that might strike you as foreign but I assure you that among people familiar with these cultural values, my sentence makes perfect sense.

    Pious Agnostic (7c3d5b)

  16. Michigan, Benghazi, etc., etc.

    I recall several years ago discussing with a friend about the likely future of the USA vis a vie a country like PRC China. This was well before the era of ObamaLand, and a good chunk of time before the biggest country in Asia would become so noticeably ascendant.

    He concluded that the age of America was drawing to a close, while I theorized that it had innate momentum that would always allow it to do better than its biggest naysayers would assume. But I based that on the belief that a majority of Americans would always have enough common sense to judge politicians and socio-political situations in a rather reliable way. IOW, I assumed we were generally resistant to coming down with a dose of Euro-sclerosis or Mexico-itis, or Argentina Disease.

    Let’s just say my confidence in the long-term health of the patient has now been shaken.

    Mark (3617ce)

  17. You can ignore the news on CNN, MSNBC, Fox, ESPN, ABC, CBS, and NBC because what they show you is heavily edited.

    JD (318f81)

  18. Heavily edited is one of the leftists new go-to RABBIT memes. Look at empthwheel in Patterico’s twitter feed. It is sad.

    JD (318f81)

  19. It’s nice to see the untion propoganda machine, and all their sheeple hard at work. Imagine if they put this much effort into their jobs? Probably wouldn’t have to resort to violence to get more money… just a thought.

    Winston Smith (47db96)

  20. Crowder’s challenge is idiotic. If Crowder knew how to hit back when hit, the guy would be in the hospital now. He should just sign a complaint or forget it. Because if he gets into the ring with a barfighter, he will be grabbed in a bear hug and rabbit-punched until he’s brain-damaged.

    My parents were union. They were not thugs. They were hard-working, honest people who made money for their boss and used their paycheck to support their children. They did not have the benefit of taxpayer funded civil service security. Their union contract was all they had.

    Right to work is a euphemism for “no union shop”. It’s been the law for a long time. There are two kinds of union shops, closed shop where you have to belong to the union to get the job, and open shop where you don’t have to belong to the union to get the job. It’s a contract the boss negotiates with the workers. Both the extremists on this issue are wrong.

    nk (875f57)

  21. And then there’s Walmart China.

    nk (875f57)

  22. Disagreeing with the Left is “incitement”.

    SPQR (5d7089)

  23. So now if you show up to protest it’s a provocation?

    I guess we should have gone and beat up all the Occupy people then.

    Patricia (be0117)

  24. Was that drive-by an attempt to equate a “hit in the pocket book” – more like no more forced dues to have a job- to a literal punch in the face?

    400 years of English/America common law has so far failed to offer such an equation. Oh well. FORWARD.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  25. 9. Why would the press play this game? Doesn’t liberty matter to anyone anymore?

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 12/12/2012 @ 7:36 am

    Because what motivates young leftwing activists to go to journalism school in the first place is to be the smear artists.

    It’s interesting:

    *The targets of the smear campaign are reporters.

    *The smear artists attack the reporter in some over the top way.

    *Then the smear artists portray the reporter as the aggressor.

    *The smear artists work to make the narrative political, because they know that politics causes people to ignore facts and shut off the “objectivity” portions of their brain.

    Replace the word “reporter” with “Israeli.” Then “smear artist” can become lots of people. Hamas, for instance, whose over the top attack will not be limited to mendacious accusations.

    The “smear artists” would also become leftwing groups like the International Solidarity Movement. Who will unquestioningly support the Palestinians even when the Palestinians kidnap and murder their friends.

    The “smear artists” also include the MFM. The members of which will willingly lie for, and even provide human shields for, any group like Hamas or Hezbollah as long as it’s confronting the hated Israelis. The examples are too many to list.

    Al Reuters and photo-shop anyone?

    Steve57 (d941b2)

  26. I remember some dopes showing up to some local tea party events to show what Tea partiers REALLY ARE. Generally they had to bring fake signs to find what they wanted to find, instead of the boring ordinary folks, with horrifying violent snake flags and a tendency to pick up litter and deposit it into appropriate receptacles.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  27. What “provocation” is sufficient for that?

    Heinlein, Citizen of the Galaxy: “Incitement to riot is no excuse to riot, son.”

    In the scene in question, the incitement was pointed insults towards the character’s adopted family.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  28. Crowder told Sean Hannity last night that he went to Lansing to show unions are inherently violent. Let that sink in.

    OK… they proved his point for him, didn’t they?

    You know how you avoid being shown as a violent douchebag? By not acting like a violent douchebag. As shocking as it sounds, I manage that every single day.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  29. NK,

    I don’t know if you saw the videotape, but I imagine Crowder instantly recognized that if he struck back at the redneck union thug, fifteen other redneck union thugs were going to pile on top of him, half of whom were probably already buzzing from their lunchtime 40 ouncer.

    Besides, I bet Crowder also knew that whatever was on the videotape would be “forever.”
    If he strikes back, it’s just a “fight.”
    But if he keeps his cool, then it gets filed under the heading of “assault by union thugs.”

    Knuggle-dragging union thugs dismantling a tent, sucker punching a guy…it’s a December 11, 2012 Obama Era time capsule of Alinskyite community organizing at its lowest denominator ! best !

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  30. Right to work is a euphemism for “no union shop”. It’s been the law for a long time.

    So why are the union thugs so upset?

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  31. Right to work in Virginia, NK, means dues are strictly voluntary, and intimidation to join illegal. Yet they still manage to force teachers to fork over unsolicited “bargaining on your behalf” fees. It’s robbery, nothing more.

    A job should pay only what it’s really, truly intrinsically worth in salary and special protections in the market, and cost/benefit tradeoffs in the quality or skill of employees taken into account.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  32. Film crews come here because they don’t have to pay sag scale or divide up jobs arbitrarily – paying guys to do a few specific things, who then sit around while another crew of guys do other specific things.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  33. . If Crowder knew how to hit back when hit, the guy would be in the hospital now. He should just sign a complaint or forget it. Because if he gets into the ring with a barfighter, he will be grabbed in a bear hug and rabbit-punched until he’s brain-damaged.

    nk, Crowder is an amateur MMA fighter. I have no doubt he would crush that guy. He took 4 shots to the head and didn’t go down. I don’t think fatso would do as well.

    TomB (4a72e4)

  34. This is all about “optics” and “narrative.” It’s not about facts or fairness.

    As has been said many times, what would have been the response from the DNC-MSM Axis if a progressive internet person had gone to a Tea Party rally, and been punched in the face?

    We know the answer to that one.

    It’s because the Left side is always “good” and the Right side is always “bad.”

    I have a progressive Leftist friend, a smart person. When I argued that we really needed to get to the bottom of Benghazi, and how the Administration presented it to the American people, he shrugged and told me “Embassies get overrun. People get killed. It happens.”

    I didn’t know quite how to respond that. Wow.

    Now, my friend is of an age where he was in college in the 70s. I didn’t pursue this, because I don’t have that many friends, but what would he have said if I argued that “Two bit burglaries of political operations happen. No big deal. Not important when we have real problems overseas and at home.”?

    We know the answer to that, as well.

    I think that we need to insist on reciprocity and fairness. Over and over again. This is a fight not in the voting booth, but in the media. And we have our shoelaces tied together.

    Get to work, friends. Write to Jon Stewart about Marcy Wheeler’s philosophy. Sure, if he mentions it he will snark about Crowder. But I have seen Stewart call BS on hypocrisy from the Left.

    We need more media presence. Period. Greg Gutfeld, your agent is calling.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  35. If Crowder knew how to hit back when hit, the guy would be in the hospital now. He should just sign a complaint or forget it.

    Which guy would be in the hospital? If Crowder had hit back he’d be the one in the hospital. Or a morgue. Did you see the crowd around him? That’s the only reason the little union beeeyotch had the guts to throw a punch.

    And he should expect the police to investigate this complaint? The unionized police whose off-duty members were just as likely to be in that union mob protesting as the teachers or other public sector union members were?

    The Leiter Side of Union Thuggery “Collective bargaining” corrupts policemen and philosophers alike.

    Milwaukee radio host Charlie Sykes reports that Wisconsin businessmen are now receiving letters importuning them to oppose Gov. Scott Walker’s efforts on behalf of Wisconsin’s taxpayers:

    The undersigned groups would like your company to publicly oppose Governor Walker’s efforts to virtually eliminate collective bargaining for public employees in Wisconsin. While we appreciate that you may need some time to consider this request, we ask for your response by March 17. In the event that you do not respond to this request by that date, we will assume that you stand with Governor Walker and against the teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters, and other dedicated public employees who serve our communities.

    In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining, please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the goods and services provided by your company…

    In the event you would like to discuss this matter further, please contact the executive Director of the Wisconsin Professional Police Association, Jim Palmer, at [phone number redacted].

    Palmer’s union is the first of the seven “undersigned groups”; the others are two more police unions, two firemen’s unions and two teachers unions. Although the new legislation excludes police and fire unions from its limits on so-called collective bargaining, one can understand why they would oppose it: Their own privileges become less secure if they are the only ones to enjoy them.

    …In the letter to Wisconsin businessmen, however, we see why so-called collective bargaining is particularly corrupting to the police. Although the letter explicitly threatens only an economic boycott, when it is written on behalf of the police–of those on whom all citizens depend to protect their safety–it invariably raises the prospect of another kind of boycott. Can a businessman who declines this heavy-handed “request” be confident that the police will do their job if he is the victim of a crime–particularly if the crime itself is in retaliation for his refusal to support “the dedicated public employees who serve our communities”?

    Sykes sums up the letter this way: “That’s a nice business you got there. Pity if anything were to happen to it if, say, you didn’t toe the line and denounce Governor Walker like we’re asking nice-like.” He’s right. “Organized” law enforcement bears a disturbing resemblance to organized crime.

    Its amusing; you can witness unionized public employees like the members of the NEA walk off the job, leaving the kids they obviously couldn’t give a rat’s ass about as they fail them on a daily basis while rating themselves “outstanding” in a circle-jerk evaluations system, and people think the unionized cops and firefighters won’t?

    They all profess to to serve the public but use whatever portion of the public they profess to serve as hostages to advance their demands.

    Steve57 (d941b2)

  36. You’d have thought that our friends on the left would have learned by now. It has been a favorite technique of James O’Keefe, in his video exposés, to present an edited tape demonstrating some left-wing malfeasance, and then, after the left screams, “Edited! Edited! Faked!” he produced the unedited tape, proving that the edited one told the whole truth, which both makes the liberals look like idiots — admittedly, not that difficult a task — and gets him double the publicity.

    The Dana who appreciates the technique (3e4784)

  37. The Alinskyite justifications of violence asserted by “Nancy,” and “Tillman,” as well as in general by the goon squad of Ayers, Kimberlin, Rabblerauser, and Bathhouse Brynaert, speaks to their lack of regard for maintaining a civil society.

    Rob Crawford makes the excellent point above about how he consciously manages to avoid acting out violently on a daily basis.
    It’s actually a very serious point Mr. Crawford makes, and I’ve heard Dennis Prager make it on a frequent basis. Human beings are inundated with compulsions toward acting out our base emotions, whether it’s wanting to deck the guy who won’t shut up in the movie theatre, or to seek revenge on the guy who’s negligently texting while swerving his car into your lane. (Prager also speaks to how we men have to control our impulse to want to give a squeeze or a lovepat to every attractive woman who walks past us on the street or in the supermarket.)

    In the name of civility and morality, we have to learn to control our desire to lash out against all of our transgressors. Otherwise, if everyone were acting out on impulse, the world would turn upside down in three hours.

    Naturally, we as a society delineate for “justifiable homicide,” and “self-defense,” or “coming to the aid of another who is being assaulted,” et al, but in the name of maintaining civil society, it is important for people to make a conscious effort to control their impulses to lash out. And I’m afraid that all too often the values of the left wing do not embrace that as a virtue—that’s because their focus is on unequal distribution, rather than on morality.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  38. Its amusing; you can witness unionized public employees like the members of the NEA walk off the job, leaving the kids they obviously couldn’t give a rat’s ass about as they fail them on a daily basis while rating themselves “outstanding” in a circle-jerk evaluations system, and people think the unionized cops and firefighters won’t?

    They all profess to to serve the public but use whatever portion of the public they profess to serve as hostages to advance their demands.

    Perfectly brilliant analysis right there.

    Ted (d6f69d)

  39. The right=-to-work legislation doesn’t somehow end the trade unions. Workers still have a right to organize, and call for a union election. If the union wins such an election, the company must negotiate with the union, though they have the choice not to agree to a contract.

    What right-to-work really does is to put a huge burden on the unions to prove to their members and prospective members that their union provides something of sufficient value to the employees that they will choose to join the union and pay union dues. If they can do that, they’ll have plenty of members and receive plenty in dues; if they do not prove that, they won’t.

    That is what the unions really fear: they fear that they’ll have to actually work to sell their union to the individual workers.

    The realistic Dana (3e4784)

  40. Our esteemed host wrote:

    Tillman is banned. Not sure how he got around the filter but ignore him if he shows up.

    Would you like for me to send a couple of my site’s trolls to replace him? :)

    The blogger Dana (3e4784)

  41. Rush Limbaugh describes the whole thing at issue as a money laundering operation – a person gets a job that belongs to the union, pays dues and then money is either donated or spent on advertising for Democratic Party candidates, the union leaders then get a “seat at the table” and the politicians in office help them, and what they want is not more jobs or anything, but more union dues.

    That’s what he says this right-to-work issue is about. Some jobs won’t of any interest to them. Only dues paying jobs matter. It’ll be on his web page by about 5 PM no later.

    Sammy Finkelman (11feb1)

  42. She also seems to be trying to sell the idea that because Crowder didn’t file a complaint with the police, he’s done something really wrong.

    How many people who get in fights actually involve the cops? Isn’t that just a guarantee of a future pain in the butt with very little chance for satisfaction?

    Why isn’t it enough for him to show what happened to draw attention to it?

    MayBee (085e06)

  43. She = emptywheel

    MayBee (085e06)

  44. Rush Limbaugh says not all unions are the same. The union Obama is closest to is the SEIU – almost as important to him is UAW. Some unions don’t have any connections at all. It’s all how much they help win elections.

    Sammy Finkelman (11feb1)

  45. Rob Crawford, first he was hounded,
    And then he began to get pounded,
    What union thugs?
    Libs ask with a shrug,
    Grab a beer, and have your sorrows drownded.

    The Limerick Avenger (3e4784)

  46. 36. You’d have thought that our friends on the left would have learned by now. It has been a favorite technique of James O’Keefe, in his video exposés, to present an edited tape demonstrating some left-wing malfeasance, and then, after the left screams, “Edited! Edited! Faked!” he produced the unedited tape, proving that the edited one told the whole truth, which both makes the liberals look like idiots — admittedly, not that difficult a task — and gets him double the publicity.

    Comment by The Dana who appreciates the technique (3e4784) — 12/12/2012 @ 9:36 am

    They have learned, Dana. The MFM simply doesn’t show the unedited tape. They act as if it’s an unresolvable conflict. Over time the reportage morphs into the meme that the O’Keefe “claim” is an unproven allegation. That the “edited” assertion is an established fact.

    As in, “O’Keefe claims the edited tape shows Planned Parenthood employees…” blah, blah, blah.

    Also, there’s the Obama corollary; “out of context.” There’s no amount of context you can give this guy that will stop the MFM from agreeing with the WH claim it was still out of context. They’ll invent context to provide cover for the WH claim that the “right” is quoting Obama out of context; I give you PolitiFact.

    The purpose of propaganda is to make sure the target arrives at the required conclusion. As events are fresh the MFM reports as if there’s some sort of valid confusion over which version of events are correct.

    Think Benghazi and the “fog of war” concoction.

    As events fade into the rearview mirror the MFM shifts gears and reports as if the confusion has been resolved in favor of their co-religionists.

    If you only get your news from the NYT or MSNBC you will remain convinced that there was a protest in Benghazi over a YouTube video that got out of hand.

    Or TEA Partiers were shouting n*gger at “civil rights icon” Rep. James Clyburn after Obamacare passed.

    Steve57 (d941b2)

  47. I only go to EmptyWheel when there are links – I had had thought it was pretty honest source. (I won’t say reliable because there is a lot of guesswork involved.)

    I thought this was a anti-terrorism web site.

    I see it’s also wrong on climate change. It’s not enough for EmptyWheel that official U.S. intelligence estimates are saying that climate change will primarily “aggravating” existing food and water scarcity, which is turn is supposed to be the cause of conflicts – itself wrong, conflicts are caused by ambitious men – with an occasional woman or two thrown in – not by any real factors. It’s not enough that climate change is supposed to aggravate problems, it ought to say it’s causing it (completely responsible)

    Sammy Finkelman (11feb1)

  48. The conservative movement is in desperate need of a flash point incident which would serve as a catalyst to awaken the sleepers and dreamers.

    It would have taken a tremendous amount of courage by Crowder to not only defend himself, but throw caution to the wind and begin to throw down.

    I have no doubt Crowder realized after backing off that he could’ve landed a few punishing blows, but he was also cognizant he would’ve gotten his ass handed to him in the process by the mob.

    This battle will not be won until we begin pushing back physically and intellectually. Running to FOX news or having G Will or the Hammer cover for us because leftys are playing unfair in the sandbox are over, if the truly want the country back.

    It’s gonna require some blood and the first drop is gonna have to come from one of us.

    scott (b8618e)

  49. Nancy,

    People who respond to words with violence — unless the words unambiguously threaten violence — are by definition violent thugs. Being a mature, responsible citizen in a liberal democracy — or a decent human being in *any* society — requires that one refrain from violence when confronted with opinions with which he or she disagrees. That’s true even if those opinions are presented in ways that the listener finds terribly offensive. Crowder has a right to “antagonize” pro-union activists or anyone else, if by “antagonize” you mean asking them pointed questions, making fun of their positions, pointing out what he may perceive as their hyporcisy, or just flat-out telling them they’re wrong. It even includes calling them bad names. The fact that the stakes may be high — RTW “will hit them in the pocket book” — is entirely irrelevant. In a democracy it’s precisely the issues where the stakes are high that we most need to be able to debate civilly. Your sad attempt to defend the violence against Crowder appears to boil down to nothing more than an assertion that he deserved what he got for being a young conservative asshole who spoke his mind. If that’s your standard for when violence is acceptable, think for a moment about what’ll happen when that standard gets applied to a young liberal asshole speaking his/her mind to members of some conservative cause. Think further about what’ll happen if everyone adopts that approach to resolving disagreements. Is that really the world you want to live in? If not, then you need to have the courage to condemn those who respond to words with violence, even when they’re on your side of the aisle.

    Matt70 (74cfb3)

  50. You talk about incentives with regard unemployment insurance – here is something far worse: (and it stays that way because of a fiction that this is not affected by economic considerations, that it is all objective)

    The Disability Mess – New York Times May 7, 2009

    Before we go looking for miscreants cheating the disability programs, it is important to realize that the growth in the Supplemental Security Income and Disability Insurance programs is perfectly understandable given bipartisan policy changes made two decades ago…the villain here is not fraud. Instead, program growth is the result of intentional changes to policy and administrative capacity.

    Poverty and Perverse Incentives – Ross Douthat column, New York Times Dec 11, 2012

    which links to:

    Profiting From a Child’s Illiteracy – Nicholas Kristof column New York Times Dec. 9, 2012


    Antipoverty programs also discourage marriage: In a means-tested program like S.S.I., a woman raising a child may receive a bigger check if she refrains from marrying that hard-working guy she likes. Yet marriage is one of the best forces to blunt poverty. In married couple households only one child in 10 grows up in poverty, while almost half do in single-mother households.

    Most wrenching of all are the parents who think it’s best if a child stays illiterate, because then the family may be able to claim a disability check each month.

    “One of the ways you get on this program is having problems in school,” notes Richard V. Burkhauser, a Cornell University economist who co-wrote a book last year about these disability programs. “If you do better in school, you threaten the income of the parents. It’s a terrible incentive.”

    Sammy Finkelman (11feb1)

  51. The Governor of Michigan signed two bills last night. It’s over for now. All they can do now is have fights like in the 1920s and 1930s- but they probably don’t want to.

    Sammy Finkelman (11feb1)

  52. Happy 97th Birthday, Frank Sinatra !

    Live 1950s TV performance of “One for my Baby (and one More for the Road”)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m121tmJzcAc

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  53. Maybee – that line actually was the most irritating dishonesty to me.

    The fist-in-the-face man’s identity was still unknown for many hours, and may yet be unknown.

    Cops on the scene, union cops, may have had motive to look away.

    There may even be a report, and this is just a stupid backhanded demand to see it. (How many lying or lazy or frankly dishonest announcements of “no report” have I seen over the last year or so?)

    SarahW (b0e533)

  54. It’s not as if the witnesses are going to help the police “figure out what happened”.

    If he presses charges, fine, but this kind of assault is just a blip to law enforcement. They really have bigger fish to fry.

    MayBee (085e06)

  55. 54. Cops on the scene, union cops, may have had motive to look away.

    Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 12/12/2012 @ 10:52 am

    They do have such a motive. I’ve seen it in cases where voters who have reached their limit and will not approve tax raises to avert lay-offs (because it’s one thing to vote to let yourself be fleeced but another to vote to let yourself be skinned). Of course, the police union could have agreed to concessions on pay and benefits, but they won’t. The remaining cops will not respond to certain calls and will not respond quickly to what they’re supposed to because. They blame the voters for not giving in to their demands, not their excessive demands, for the impasse.

    I don’t see why we shouldn’t acknowledge the fact that public employee union members’ primary allegiance is to their union and their pay and benefits. Not the public they profess to serve.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  56. “In the name of civility and morality, we have to learn to control our desire to lash out against all of our transgressors.”

    ES – I do remember the liberal outrage back in 2007 when Randi Rhodes claimed to have been mugged. It turned out to everybody’s shock that she was lying and instead she was the victim of the hate crime of a conservative sidewalk assaulting her face because she was too drunk to walk.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  57. I think it is cute how emptyhead has this faux moral self-lefteous outrage in her feigned quest to seek out the perpetrator, and how Crowder did not act in the manner she wishes he had.

    JD (318f81)

  58. In Australia, picket lines are serious, because the police refuse to break them to allow people through. The unions simply block the road and there is no way to get through on foot, or to drive through without killing them. It has long been my opinion that it ought to be legal to drive through them, and any deaths or injuries should be regarded as self-inflicted, but unfortunately I don’t make the law. If you do drive through them then the same police who stand by and won’t clear the road for you will stir themselves to arrest you.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  59. Comment by SarahW (b0e533) — 12/12/2012 @ 9:16 am

    Right to work in Virginia, NK, means dues are strictly voluntary, and intimidation to join illegal. Yet they still manage to force teachers to fork over unsolicited “bargaining on your behalf” fees.

    I think this called an agency shop.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_shop

    Right-to-work only outlaws the union shop. A “closed shop” I think is illegal throughout the United States since I think the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947.

    In a closed shop, you have to be a member of the union before being hired. This only exists now I think in Hollywood for actors where someone has to be a member of the Screen Actor’s Guild or one of its affiliated union, like AFTRA.

    This article seems to indicate there’s something else used even where an agency shop is illegal called a “fair share fee”

    Whatever it is, the amount is something less than the union dues.

    Sammy Finkelman (10c64a)

  60. “I think it is cute how emptyhead has this faux moral self-lefteous outrage”

    JD – I does echo back to her coverage of the Scooter Libby trial with Jane Hamster.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  61. Daleyrocks – she is wailing about 75,000 bucks wasted on added security, because Crowder did not rush to them, and ignores the economic impact of multiple school districts having to close their schools because teachers left to protest instead of doing their damn jobs. How much time and productivity was lost in MI just yesterday from the parents that had to take time off work to watch their kids, pay someone else to do so, etc …?

    JD (318f81)

  62. “How much time and productivity was lost in MI just yesterday from the parents that had to take time off work to watch their kids, pay someone else to do so, etc …?”

    JD – How dare you think about something like that when this is all about the future of the people in Michigan, you teabagger extremist!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. I keep hearing that unions used to be pure and good and necessary, and it’s only relatively recently that they’ve turned thuggish. Not so. Unions have always achieved their ends through violence and intimidation. Back in the 19th century they used to shoot Pinkertons and set fire to factories. At least they don’t do that any more. Much.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  64. Daleyrocks – she is wailing about 75,000 bucks wasted on added security, because Crowder did not rush to them

    Yes, JD.
    That is absolutely a sign she is trapped in her own illusion of cleverness.

    MayBee (085e06)

  65. MayBee – her fiscal responsibility is touching.

    JD (318f81)

  66. Rush Limbaugh describes the whole thing at issue as a money laundering operation – a person gets a job that belongs to the union, pays dues and then money is either donated or spent on advertising for Democratic Party candidates, the union leaders then get a “seat at the table” and the politicians in office help them, and what they want is not more jobs or anything, but more union dues.

    That’s nonsense. Workers want to take their money home, to pay the mortgage and feed the kids.

    BTW, I love listening to an opiate-addict, four-time divorcee, “iconic conservative”, making multimillions off gullible idiots. Those are your principles?

    nk (875f57)

  67. Comment by Sammy Finkelman (10c64a) — 12/12/2012 @ 12:23 pm

    As current as I know, Sammy, Chicago still has it for the plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. Apprentice, journeyman, owner, the whole mess. Maybe other trades.

    nk (875f57)

  68. Those are your principles?

    Better than those of the union thugs.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  69. I already talked about that, Rob. My mother was a Teamster and she never punched anybody. She did load five tons a day. For twenty-six years.

    nk (875f57)

  70. NK,

    Limbaugh has only been divorced three times. But what does that have to do with his ability to be a valued commentator on politics ?

    Also, Limbaugh was addicted to a prescription pain medication following a difficult back surgery, but that does not make him a bad person.

    Your other point about how union workers just want to take home a paycheck to their family is a non-sequitir in dismissing Limbaugh’s point about how the union bosses, particularly in the public employee unions, help to facillitate the money laundering scheme. The Democrat politicians vote money to be allocated toward the public employees, then those employees donate money back toward the same politicians to get re-elected. Once they’re re-elected, they vote more money toward the public employees. It’s a cycle.

    Keep in mind—those are taxpayer dollars.

    Everyone wants to feed their family—even the mafia and drug dealers. And Democrat politicians, too !

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  71. This tells me Crowder is more interested in attracting attention than seeking justice for assault and battery.

    The video shows no evidence of who worked to make it collapse.

    Comment by Nancy (2f9e9d) — 12/12/2012 @ 7:51 am

    Nancy, while I’m glad you stopped by to comment and appreciate hearing a different view, I find it surprising that while you yourself have acknowledged that it is indeed assault and battery, you seem far more concerned about Crowder’s response rather than a private citizen who disagreed with the masses being assaulted in public view.

    Do you see how easy it is to believe your attempt is to assign guilt to Crowder rather the thug who caused physical harm?

    What happens to a society when the victim of a physical crime is assigned the blame and guilt while conveniently ignoring the evidence? What if Crowder were a woman, would your reaction be the same?

    Regarding the video and the unsubstantiated accusation that it is a fake, unedited, etc., makes me sigh at the extraordinary hypocrisy and double standard. Case in point: During the assize Tea Party rally at the Capitol, Congressman Lewis accused some attendees of spitting on him on the stairs leading to the Capitol building. There was only his and his aide’s accusation – no other witnesses. The media was all over this, non-stop. The lefty blogs and MSNBC screamed racism morning, noon and night. The right was crucified – all without any video evidence, and without any attendees verifying. As a result, Breitbart offered a substantial reward
    To anyone, anywhere who could prove this happened via cell phone,video camera. No one ever could. Yet here we *have* the video evidence, and that’s not enough for you.

    It’s not even that it’s not enough for you, it’s that you choose to change the rules, ignore the evidence, and attempt to re-focus the guilt. You don’t get to have it both ways. Either evidence is just that or we’ve gone into the rabbit hole what truth and reality are always malleable to ones purpose. That’s when chaos reigns.

    Nancy, I hope you come back and respond. I hope you can convince me otherwise, but it’s doubtful. It’s just simply too hard to discount the blunt facts.

    Dana (292dcf)

  72. Correction: It was Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, not John Lewis.

    Dana (292dcf)

  73. A pallet is one thousand pounds, and her rate to meet her pay was five pallets. Over that, it was a bonus pay.

    She did ten pallets.

    You guys know anything about union work? “Ratebusters” are not usually liked. My mother was. Because she was an asset to her fellow workers. Friendly and kind, sharing her work and even her lunch.

    She would never have hit Crowder. And most union workers would not, either.

    They just want their jobs and paychecks. But I already said that.

    nk (875f57)

  74. I don’t think Nancy is a for-real person.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  75. They just want their jobs and paychecks. But I already said that.

    Worked for a union while going to college. They stuck a 57 year old guy on our fence crew because he asked about the investments of the pension fund. He needed 3 more years to get his 30 years in for a decent pension. They could’ve given him a flag job directing traffic around the construction site. He physically couldn’t handle the work, so he had to retire early.

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  76. Limbaugh has only been divorced three times.

    Gotcha!

    It’s an old lawyer joke. The statute of limitations has expired for a $5,000.00 debt, and the plaintiff sues for $10,000.00. The defendant comes in and says “I only owe $5,000.00″. ;)

    It is the law, BTW. Admit nothing.

    nk (875f57)

  77. nk you funny. Never been a liberal icon who has had legal issues with drugs, wives, teenage boys, etc. etc.

    Misdirection people. Keep you eye on the ball.

    nk (3d3d13)

  78. Would she wear a t-shirt with a big fist on it comin’ right atcha? A big, thuggy fist? Probably not either, since punching is a guy thing.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  79. Is this really a game, the left wants to play, considering the history of strike breaking, in
    Ford’s Detroit, Harry Bennett’s ‘Sociology Dept’
    was much less fastidious, to cite one example,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  80. You guys know anything about union work? “Ratebusters” are not usually liked.

    Why do union members who just want a paycheck dislike rate busters?

    MayBee (085e06)

  81. and what they want is not more jobs or anything, but more union dues.

    That’s nonsense. Workers want to take their money home, to pay the mortgage and feed the kids.

    And this has what to do with it? Limbaugh has it exactly right. The entire purpose of the exercise is to raise more money in union dues, in order to elect more Democrats and increase their own power.

    an opiate-addict, four-time divorcee, “iconic conservative”, making multimillions off gullible idiots.

    What exactly is the difference between his addiction to medicine he was legitimately prescribed, and yours to alcohol? Why is it a moral failing? And why is it relevant how unlucky he’s been in love, or perhaps how he’s been taken advantage of, if you prefer to see it that way? How does that detract from his standing as a clear-thinking commenter on the news? His opinion is 1000 times more valuable than yours. At least he’s not an antisemitic drunkard.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  82. nk you funny. Never been a liberal icon who has had legal issues with drugs, wives, teenage boys, etc. etc.

    Misdirection people. Keep you eye on the ball.

    Comment by nk (3d3d13) — 12/12/2012 @ 2:06 pm

    That’s not me.

    And, no, I am pretty much a tame person.

    nk (875f57)

  83. Why do union members who just want a paycheck dislike rate busters?

    Comment by MayBee (085e06) — 12/12/2012 @ 2:08 pm

    Envy.

    nk (875f57)

  84. NK,

    I have no doubt your parents were/are wonderful people who worked hard and played by the rules, and paid their union dues, and taught their children well.

    However, Steven Crowder was still assaulted by a knuckle-dragging union thug who couldn’t handle someone having a different point of view.
    Millions of Americans have seen how the unions are behaving like thugs, whether it’s in Lansing, or Madison, or when they’re passive-aggressively interrupting the flow of imports to the Port of Los Angeles and Long Beach Harbor—which causes hardship for untold numbers of innocent people across the country.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  85. My mother was a Teamster and she never punched anybody. She did load five tons a day. For twenty-six years.

    And the union dues she had no choice about paying went to pay for murder, beatings, intimidation, and more. I’ll do her the charity of assuming that this was against her will, and that if she’d had the choice she’d not have paid them. But there is no difference between a union and a gang or mafia.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  86. Milhouse, let us just stay out of each other’s way.

    nk (875f57)

  87. If you have seen the movie “Casino”, my parents’ pension funds were the ones who were raided by Allen Dorfman to fund it.

    nk (875f57)

  88. Really? So they are usually envious, even thought they are getting their paycheck and have their jobs?

    They don’t like “ratebusters” because they are afraid they will be held to that standard, and lose their ability to get paid for full-time work doing less.

    But it is nice your mom shared her lunch to win these simple good people over to her side.

    MayBee (085e06)

  89. Correction: It was Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, not John Lewis.

    You had the name right the first time, but not the allegation. Cleaver is the one who falsely claimed he was spat at, but that’s not the incident Breitbart offered the reward for. The reward was for anyone who could produce evidence that TEA Partiers had shouted “nigger” at John Lewis, Andre Carson, and their aides (one of whom was carrying a cell phone high, clearly in hopes of recording just such an epithet). That was the allegation that was published just 45 minutes after it was supposed to have happened, in a story that expert journalists said must have taken at least several hours to write.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  90. Well this is the point, at least one of the attackers, was a union official, who has been fined in the past, for unethical behavior,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  91. Why do union members who just want a paycheck dislike rate busters?

    Envy.

    Didn’t you just claim all they want is to put food on the table for their chirrun? If that were true they’d admire and emulate rate busters. Now you admit they’re motivated by envy. Make up your mind.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  92. A much more reasonable discussion, here.

    The biggest problem I see is that many conservatives are now calling for vengeance and vigilante justice in response to the assault on Crowder. That behavior is the opposite of what most conservatives claim to believe.

    There’s plenty of evidence to take these assaults and destructions of property to LEO’s and the courts.

    Warren Bonesteel (65c1ed)

  93. “My mother was a Teamster and she never punched anybody.”

    nk – So what. This post is not about your mother. A lot of Teamsters probably never punch anybody. Unfortunately, some do.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  94. Milhouse, let us just stay out of each other’s way.

    No. You are an antisemite, a statist, a protectionist, and generally have no place in the pro-liberty movement.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  95. My mother shared her lunch because she enjoyed feeding people, proud of her cooking, and very kind-hearted.

    nk (875f57)

  96. ==The biggest problem I see is that many conservatives are now calling for vengeance and vigilante justice===

    O rilly? Where so?

    elissa (e197f8)

  97. Milhouse,

    Just don’t slice my pastrami on the same slicer you used for the ham and we’ll be just fine.

    nk (875f57)

  98. People are often put in a difficult environment when they work and have a union. They have two bodies they must answer to- one who pays their bills, and one who makes the rules.
    People who have been on the job a long time but who are in good standing with the union have power to demand poor performance from other workers. They are encouraged to complain about the company (this makes the union valuable) but not about the union (this makes the job untenable).

    Being a really good worker is something you must apologize for. It is good for the company, and the worker, but not the union.

    MayBee (085e06)

  99. “My mother was a Teamster and she never punched anybody.”

    nk – So what. This post is not about your mother. A lot of Teamsters probably never punch anybody. Unfortunately, some do.

    Comment by daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 12/12/2012 @ 2:31 pm

    It bothers me that “union” equals “thug” in some people’s minds, I guess, daleyrocks.

    nk (875f57)

  100. Just don’t slice my pastrami on the same slicer you used for the ham and we’ll be just fine.

    No, we won’t. We will never be fine, because I make no peace with antisemites.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  101. nk – I had a good college friend who managed trucking terminals and he was forced to carry a gun to protect himself from violence and threats of violence from Teamsters. A former employer also did considerable business in the trucking industry and the Teamster/organized crime stories from customers are not dinner fare.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  102. It bothers me that “union” equals “thug” in some people’s minds, I guess, daleyrocks.

    And if your mother had been in the Crips or the Bloods would you expect us to lay off them too? What about the Democrats? Are they fair game, even if someone’s mother was one? I will do your mother the charity of assuming that she was coerced into her union membership; that excuses her, but it also means you have no reason to take offense at condmenations of the union. On the contrary, it would mean that you ought to join in enthusiastically, since it would mean that she was their victim, and you personally suffered by not having the money they extorted from her. If she had been mugged you wouldn’t object to anyone lambasting the muggers, would you?

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  103. Union doesn’t equal thug.

    But unions have gained a lot of power via thuggishnness.

    Would they be able to maintain their power without fear?

    MayBee (085e06)

  104. I think I noticed something in the video that I have not yet seen mentioned: it sounded (to me) like Crowder was quasi-SWATted.
    About 50 seconds into the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_F3oev06i0), as Crowder is retreating towards the tent, someone shouts “He’s got a gun!”.
    I doubt that Crowder had a gun. I suspect that the shouter was trying to… panic the crowd? get the police to draw their weapons? Regardless, he created a dangerous situation for everyone. And it smacks of the SWATting technique.

    ameryx (3cae0a)

  105. Millhouse @ 91,

    Thank you for the clarification. I suspected I had mixed them up but was too any to confirm.

    I think, though, my point still stands.

    SarahW,

    I realize Nancy is not real per we, but that’s the auor of the comment, and that’s who I wanted to respond to.

    Dana (292dcf)

  106. My mother shared her lunch because she enjoyed feeding people, proud of her cooking, and very kind-hearted.

    Your mother sounds like a wonderful, wonderful person.

    My comment about why union shops hate “rate busters” still stands. I am truly happy your wonderful mother was not hated for it.

    MayBee (085e06)

  107. Comment by elissa (e197f8) — 12/12/2012 @ 2:32 pm

    Pay no attention to bonehead, or it’ll regale you with its rich Civil War heritage, which exempts it from criticism—supposedly!

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  108. I’m from Chicago, May Bee, where union organizers were hanged by Marhall Field, and Upton Sinclair wrote his book about J. Ogden Armour’s rat-feces- infested sausages. Some human meat included.

    nk (875f57)

  109. 111.I’m from Chicago, May Bee, where union organizers were hanged by Marhall Field, and Upton Sinclair wrote his book about J. Ogden Armour’s rat-feces- infested sausages. Some human meat included.

    And this justifies what exactly? Give’m a pass on violence and coercion?

    Amalgamated Cliff Divers, Local 157 (721840)

  110. Yes, unions fought hard to get the workers’ rights.

    But that doesn’t make them righteous forever.

    MayBee (085e06)

  111. For those who missed it, and don’t understand why I’m calling nk an antisemite, here is the comment where he let his mask slip. This subsequent comment doesn’t demonstrate antisemitism per se, as the earlier one did, but it does expose him as a vile person who deserves no good will from me.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  112. My comment about why union shops hate “rate busters” still stands. I am truly happy your wonderful mother was not hated for it.

    Comment by MayBee (085e06) — 12/12/2012 @ 2:48 pm

    I don’t know, I can only guess.

    They were shiftless ______and ______ who came up from the Delta and Kentucky to Chicago, and did not want to work more than they had to? But they were happy having real workers keep the company alive?

    nk (875f57)

  113. I’m from Chicago, May Bee, where union organizers were hanged by Marhall Field, and Upton Sinclair wrote his book about J. Ogden Armour’s rat-feces- infested sausages. Some human meat included.

    I’m sure those union organizers whom Field hanged richly deserved it. Upton Sinclair was a socialist propagandist, who wrote a work of slander and fiction for the express purpose of promoting the thuggish union movement. What difference does it make what lies he made up in it? Why do you cite them as if they had some basis in fact?

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  114. Yes, unions fought hard to get the workers’ rights.

    But that doesn’t make them righteous forever.

    They were never righteous. They fought with arson, murder, and intimidation, even worse than they do now.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  115. I’m a union member (Teamsters, though currently inactive), and I’m against any law that requires people to join a union or pay dues to a union.

    If there’s a contract between a union and a company that requires workers to be union members, that’s another issue. If two entities agree on that, it’s okay, but it shouldn’t be something that’s forced on anyone by the government.

    As far as what took place in Michigan, some of the union guys were totally out of line, and that’s all there is to it. You don’t have a right to scream at people, curse at them, destroy their property or start smacking them around just because they don’t agree with your position. End of story.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  116. “It bothers me that “union” equals “thug” in some people’s minds, I guess, daleyrocks.”

    nk – I dealt with three unions for an employer in Chicago. Multi-employer bargaining and absolutely no problems, although a few threatened strikes. Not all unions and locals are the same.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  117. Well consider the fresh vein of crazy;

    http://minx.cc/?post=335634

    narciso (ee31f1)

  118. “I’m from Chicago, May Bee, where union organizers were hanged by Marhall Field, and Upton Sinclair wrote his book about J. Ogden Armour’s rat-feces- infested sausages. Some human meat included.”

    nk – Chicago was also where the Wobblies, or IWW, was founded.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  119. The biggest problem I see is that many conservatives are now calling for vengeance and vigilante justice in response to the assault on Crowder

    Good catch, Elissa. Nonsense.

    JD (9adec8)

  120. Yes, it was, daleyrocks, and where May Day, now Labor Day, was founded.

    nk (875f57)

  121. There’s plenty of evidence to take these assaults and destructions of property to LEO’s and the courts.

    Comment by Warren Bonesteel (65c1ed) — 12/12/2012 @ 2:30 pm

    That’s what I said. Crowder should file a complaint or put the s*** behind him.

    BTW, you can never go wrong by fighting back. It’s when you take a punch and don’t punch back that you become a victim. Mars does not grant victory, only courage, but fortuna favet braves.

    nk (875f57)

  122. “So what does Marcy Wheeler of Empty Wheel do?”

    What lefties usually do…lie.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  123. I’m from Chicago, May Bee, where union organizers were hanged by Marhall Field,

    I’m sure those union organizers whom Field hanged richly deserved it.

    Confession: I was concentrating on nk’s citation of Upton Sinclair as if he were not a fiction writer and propagandist, and didn’t pay much attention to this claim of his. I just lazily assumed that it was true, instead of being properly suspicious of anything nk writes, and looking it up. Well, I just looked it up, and surprise surprise, Marshall Field never hanged anybody. He was never a judge.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  124. ==I’m from Chicago, May Bee==

    Yes you are from Chicago where today’s public unions (which include as members many white collar office workers) have helped push IL toward bankruptcy through their ridiculous pension demands and rules. And where the convention trade has suffered mightily from set up rules and charges demanded by local trade unions. You have just lived through a Chicago teachers’ strike that kept kids out of class for around 2 weeks and caused parents to scramble to find child care for their kids who should have been learning in school.

    Your glorifying today’s unions and their thuggishness because of your mother’s experiences thirty years ago and because Upton Sinclair exposed horrific working conditions in the stockyards a century ago does not impress as an argument supported with intellectual rigor or 21st century reality.

    I would think that, at the very least, the fact that your mother’s pension fund was raided by Teamster officials and that men were murdered gangland style as a result of it, would have enlightened you a tiny bit about unions.

    elissa (e197f8)

  125. Elspeth Beauchamp approves of violence. And lying fabulist liars.

    https://twitter.com/elspethrb/status/278993158061322240

    JD (9adec8)

  126. Well she’s married to one, so it’s not a big stretch;

    narciso (ee31f1)

  127. Yeah, she sort of had to make peace with that or admit her life is a lie.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  128. Ms Beauchamp is a pitiful thing. BTW I saw Mr. I WILL PUNCH YOU, and he still has enough mobster to take her head off. He didn’t land his first blow, got mad.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  129. What was her previous freakout, featured prominently here, some months back,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  130. Milhouse,

    Don’t talk about things you know nothing of. Just make sure the gefilte and knish are fresh. Ok, deli-boy?

    nk (875f57)

  131. I suggest that “not demonizing” is not the same thing as “glorifying”, elissa.

    BTW, Dorfman was killed by the Spilotros about half a mile from my law office in Linconwood. My Teamster parents helped put me there, by supporting me through school. Irony?

    nk (875f57)

  132. And our village police pension fund is bigger than their salaries. And our school superintendent will retire with a $300,000.00 per year pension.

    But it’s not union. It’s patronage, net-working, who you know, corruption.

    There was this little house in our village. Big lot. Real big lot. An old couple owned it.

    The fire chief condemned it. The fire department used it as an exercise in putting out fires.

    The fire chief’s daughter bought the acre for $60,000.00. Last I saw she was asking $3.5m for the McMansion she built on it.

    Who is good?

    nk (875f57)

  133. The lesson from WI recall in light of the Romany/Ryan pffft is that a significant number of leftys find unionists a potent emetic.

    MI is repeating the demonstration.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  134. I used to wake up at 3:00am to drive to Benton Harbor and Ann Arbor to buy fresh fruit and produce from freckled, apple-cheecked girls. I don’t think Detroit or Lansing are the same thing.

    nk (875f57)

  135. 137. “Who is good?”

    None living.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  136. Don’t talk about things you know nothing of.

    You’re the one making things up. Marshall Field was not a judge, and Upton Sinclair was a writer of fiction. And you’re still a typical Greek antisemite, just like the ones whose defeat we’re celebrating now.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  137. And Spilotro almost blew up Harry Reid, Frank Rosenthal came from Miami, and I grew up in the town of the last person to see Hoffa alive (I knew none of this, at the time)

    narciso (ee31f1)

  138. Now mind you, she just retweeted the story, but what a mindset

    narciso (ee31f1)

  139. @125.

    Bingo.

    But when you say that around some conservatives, you get ad homs, red herrings and straw men.

    All you have to do is to scan some of the conservative sites and articles around thenet, especially in the comments sections to see what I mentioned earlier.

    The conversation on the issue, here, is mild and civil in comparison

    Warren Bonesteel (65c1ed)

  140. ‘An illustration of absurdity, by being absurd;

    narciso (ee31f1)

  141. This is a good comment site, Warren. People can be nuttier than a pastrami on white with mayo, but usually there are insightful, non time-wasting comments.

    nk (875f57)

  142. The longer this kind of thuggery continues, the more brazen and violent it will become.

    In four years we may well see street violence aking to Hitler’s Brown Shirts in the late 20s and 30s directed against all manner of people who don’t show suitable approbation and obeisance toward leftist causes and groups.

    This is where leftist ideology inevitably leads…

    WarEagle82 (97b777)

  143. usually there are insightful, non time-wasting comments.

    Don’t expect any from me.

    nk (875f57)

  144. I saw some planted comments, Warren.

    Anyway, check this out. IBEW 98 may find itself dropped,off unceremoniously in a metaphorical,dumpster, after being metaphorically throttled, or else given something metaphorically real to cry about. http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/20319629/a-protest-designed-to-make-you-cry

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  145. Yes, mobies often linger in certain sites, so that the nutroots, flag them, subsequently,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  146. just like the ones whose defeat we’re celebrating now.

    Comment by Milhouse (15b6fd) — 12/12/2012 @ 4:58 pm

    Oh, Chanukhah. I have celebrated a couple, myself. Why does everybody pronounce “Amen” differently? And why do I have to be tied to a lady who is not my wife?

    Happy Channukhah, Milhouse!

    (BTW, I am a Spartan. We were never part of Alexander’s empire.)

    nk (875f57)

  147. What does Marcy Wheeler’s family think of her career as a Crack-Whore?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  148. She’s flacked for detainees at Gitmo, it’s a short trip to where she is now,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  149. if you don’t need stitches and you still have all your teefs then the propaganda whores like the soledad and the heifer lady and the anderson cooper are mostly gonna jibber jabber about SHOPPING MALL MURDER MADNESS until your bruises heal

    it’s a documented phenomenon

    happyfeet (ed2e88)

  150. In their more selective strategy they are moving Erin Burnett, to the morning, Soledad to her slot, and Vanderbilt, to late night to compete with Letterman,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  151. who are all those people you’re talking about?

    askeptic (2bb434)

  152. Figments of a deranged imagination, after bad Chinese food.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  153. Erin says you have to be out of the bubble to be out front with your breasts

    she says this with what sounds like great conviction

    I wonder what it means exactly

    happyfeet (ed2e88)

  154. Upon arrival, he antagonized people who were there protesting right to work legislation, which will hit them in the pocket book. He did so with a camera in tow, run by Lee Stranahan.

    False.

    “Nancy” — where did you read Lee Stranahan was running the camera?

    I’d like to learn where the lefties get their misinformation.

    Of course, you won’t answer. That was a drive-by comment by a drive-by liar and you won’t be back.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  155. 67. Rush Limbaugh describes the whole thing at issue as a money laundering operation – a person gets a job that belongs to the union, pays dues and then money is either donated or spent on advertising for Democratic Party candidates, the union leaders then get a “seat at the table” and the politicians in office help them, and what they want is not more jobs or anything, but more union dues.

    That’s nonsense. Workers want to take their money home, to pay the mortgage and feed the kids.

    BTW, I love listening to an opiate-addict, four-time divorcee, “iconic conservative”, making multimillions off gullible idiots. Those are your principles?

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 12/12/2012 @ 1:29 pm

    Nice shift to the strawman, nk.

    Who cares what workers want? It has nothing to do with what the the union bosses want, and how they run the unions. And they run the unions as a money laundering operation for the Democrats.

    Obama announces a “bail-out.” He’s going to hire 100,000 new math and science teachers.

    1. That means he gets 100,000 new clients.
    2. The union, in this case the NEA, gets 100,000 new members to finance the bosses six figure lifestyles.
    3. The union, grateful for the gift, will also use those as well as existing dues, to finance pols like Obama who’ll promise them more such gifts.
    4. And the best part? Taxpayers who don’t vote for Obama will discretionary income that might have been used to finance an opponent’s political campaign confiscated in order pay for it.

    You think the relationship works differently with private sector unions? What was the auto bailout except a UAW/Democratic raid on taxpayers they could care less about (and secured creditors).

    Why wouldn’t Obama screw over businesspeople who don’t vote for him by raising their taxes, and distribute the largess to trade unions who work on “not-so-shovel-ready-jobs” who can deliver the votes for him? Both Obama and his union cronies getting fat and rich in the process.

    Your tribute to your mom is touching. It apparently blinds you to how the union she belonged to and others she didn’t operate.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  156. In case nk’s subsequent antagonistic relish hasn’t made it perfectly clear to everyone, Milhouse’s accusation of anti-semitism is about the most disingenuous accusation of anti-semitism since Jeff Goldstein accused Patterico of anti-semitism for using the word “money-grubbing.”

    Leviticus (17b7a5)

  157. Comment by Leviticus (17b7a5) — 12/12/2012 @ 9:16 pm

    ;) I still prefer “racist bigot”, but I’ll settle for “leftist piece of garbage”.

    Milhouse is … Milhouse.

    nk (875f57)

  158. Here’s a weird tale that might be a Twilight Zone episode in 2012:

    I am a conservative. I own a gun. I was raised a Baptist, although I don’t go to church much now, but that’s another story. I vote. I go to work with a variety of people from a whole lot of various backgrounds and beliefs. I get along with them. They seem nice.

    After work, I come home. Sometimes I go out with my wife. Sometimes I go out with friends. I like to drink beer. I have two kids in college. I’m looking forward to them being home for winter break.

    There’s no way around it. I’m an old white guy.

    But here’s the weird, eerie part: I have never hit anyone else in anger since childhood and those instances were with my brothers. I think they have forgiven me. After more than 30 years of marriage, I have never, ever laid an angry hand on my wife. I have never struck my children except slap their hand away from something dangerous.

    I have never pointed any gun I have ever owned at another human being.

    If that’s not weird in today’s world, I don’t know what is according to the media narrative.

    Cue the music.

    Ag80 (b2c81f)

  159. “Ah, he never dissapoints, meaning he always does;”

    narciso – Tommy Xtopher doesn’t understand the mockery of those ceaselessly talking about the fake Republican war on women when there is a real scalp taken by a Democrat in a battle against a woman. Clueless is too kind a word for Tommy.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  160. Ag80, I have not been in a fight since twenty-three. Some n-word thought I looked soft, tried to rob me, and I backhanded him against the subway wall.

    Heh! I told that to my psychiatrist, he wrote “anti-social” in my chart.

    nk (875f57)

  161. Emptywheel on twitter is brazenly dishonest.

    JD (318f81)

  162. Is that not the most amazing performance you have ever seen?

    She accuses me of saying Crowder should not have reported the crime. Which of course I never said. So I challenge her like 40 times to prove I said it.

    She keeps saying variations of “I can’t believe he said Crowder should not have reported the crime!”

    I keep asking her to prove it, and she keeps just saying I said it without proving it.

    Which is bad enough.

    But just now she accused me of DELETING the tweets.

    Which I absolutely did not do. She is flat out making it up.

    Frankly, it’s so brazen I’m creeped out.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  163. I’m trying to do a post about it, but it would require me to take about 100 screenshots, and I don’t think I have the energy to upload them all. Just go to my Twitter feed and behold.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  164. I wouldn’t say I don’t think Crowder shouldn’t report the crime. I do think, and I’ve said so, it’s probably futile.

    As Ann Althouse appears to believe as well:

    http://www.althouse.blogspot.com/2012/12/at-michigan-protests-i-was-sucker.html

    Union thugs… in broad daylight, on camera. Are they stupid… or do they know something about the willingness of the authorities to enforce the law?

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  165. 169.Is that not the most amazing performance you have ever seen?

    unfortunately no, my electrical brotherhood thought it was cute to try and drop a pipe wrench near one of our non union sups – we perp walked all of them out of the plant and to this day make sure they are unemployed

    A republican group is processing photos off all those teachers that called in sick to get them fired, yep – too bad, they walked off their job in a non sanctioned action to they are subjecxt to immediate termination and loss of poensions.

    too bad….

    EPWJ (d84fb0)

  166. My last word. I have said enough nonsense already. Crowder signs a complaint. Or forgets it.

    There’s a reason we have police, courts, and prisons. So we don’t each have to do Matt Dillon on the Front Street of Dodge City.

    nk (875f57)

  167. Wildcat strikes are usually forgiven, Eric. It’s an unwritten rule. Both the boss and the union want to go back to business. As long as the workers come back.

    nk (875f57)

  168. Crowder signs a complaint. Or forgets it.

    Crowder never signs a complaint, because any first year law student would request the whole tape be admitted into evidence. I’m not excusing any behavior by the union members, but that bit was clearly edited to make Crowder look like an innocent victim. Anyone who thinks that remotely resembles an accurate account of what happened should go watch Sicko and start pining for Cuban healthcare.

    SEK (74bb56)

  169. SEK!

    Speech is not risible to self-defense. You can hit me if you consider me a threat, but not for just talking to you.

    But yeah, if I were an attorney on either side, prosecutor or defense …. Well, I would not be.

    nk (875f57)

  170. ” Just make sure the gefilte and knish are fresh. Ok, deli-boy?”

    Do we really need more proof that nk is a Jew-baiting Nazi scumbag?

    FOAF (afeaef)

  171. “Crowder signs a complaint. Or forgets it.”

    So unless he signs a complaint nk is jim-dandy with someone getting beaten up for their political beliefs. Why am I not surprised he supports brownshirt tactics?

    FOAF (afeaef)

  172. Do we really need more proof that nk is a Jew-baiting Nazi scumbag?

    Comment by FOAF (afeaef) — 12/12/2012 @ 11:39 pm

    So, do you rest your case?

    nk (875f57)

  173. Regarding comment 127: I was in Lansing on Tuesday, got to the last standing tent shortly before it was torn down. The guy who I saw yelling “He’s got a gun” is #2 on MM’s page
    http://michellemalkin.com/2012/12/11/video-gallery-of-union-thuggery-in-michigan/
    He’s the one with the backwards hard hat giving the finger. I had just stepped outside the tent on the opposite (East) end from the Crowder attack (which I didn’t see, and can’t exactly place chronologically). Backwards Hat was yelling “He’s got a gun!” and fanatically chasing someone wearing a long coat (definitely not Crowder) into the tent. BH never made it into the tent, because one of his union friends grabbed him from behind and caused him to fall at my feet. He was somehow induced to stay outside the tent at that point. I don’t think his pursuit (whatever logic one finds there) likely had much to do with Mr. Crowder.

    Something else that people may not know: There were plenty of police at the Capitol building, but they were concentrated strictly at the building entrances. There were none at all anywhere on the lawn. The union people acted as if they had the place to themselves, and they were right. With the thickly packed crowd, I saw no police anywhere in sight until well after both tents were on the ground.

    DenisC (46c38f)

  174. (And for the record, keep in mind that I analyze the technical aspects of manipulating film for a living. Feel free to sample my very, nay, extremely ideological analyses of Mad Men, Doctor Who, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, etc. if you require evidence.)

    SEK (74bb56)

  175. “I’m not excusing any behavior by the union members”

    SEK – Heh! Except that you are. Crowder’s skirt was too short. He was asking for it by being there.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  176. nk couldn’t answer the second post.

    FOAF (afeaef)

  177. “And for the record, keep in mind that I analyze the technical aspects of manipulating film for a living.”

    SEK – So what. What gives you absolute certainty about the content if anything that was edited which would make it misleading given all the other proven lies already told about the incident? Show your work please.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  178. Except that you are. Crowder’s skirt was too short. He was asking for it by being there.

    No, I’m not. Your analogy’s not analogous. He wasn’t just there, and people didn’t just react to him. He was there with a camera asking incendiary questions, which, if you’d like your analogy to hold, would be the equivalent of a woman walking into a bar full of rapists, lifting up her dress, and yelling “Who has dibs?”

    Which is offensive in the extreme, but you went there, not me. I’m just working with the logic you handed me.

    SEK (74bb56)

  179. (afeaef), go play with your knudel.

    nk (875f57)

  180. Still, SEK, speech is not risible to battery in a public place. It’s a felony in Illinois, to react to speech in that way, hitting somebody on the public way, and likely a lot of other places that have adopted the Model Penal Code.

    nk (875f57)

  181. SEK,

    I would say the analogy was spot-on. The camera and questions are what made the skirt short. To be what you’re so crudely contending, he would have been challenging people to fight and doing at least some small pushing.

    Stashiu3 (1680c0)

  182. No, I’m not. Your analogy’s not analogous. He wasn’t just there, and people didn’t just react to him. He was there with a camera asking incendiary questions…

    Of course. Inflammatory questions. Like “Why do you want to force people to pay union dues.” Followed by, “Why are you vandalizing that tent? There are women and old people in it who could get hurt.”

    It’s inflammatory to ask vandals and thugs about their vandalism and thuggery.

    Especially on camera.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  183. So what. What gives you absolute certainty about the content if anything that was edited which would make it misleading given all the other proven lies already told about the incident? Show your work please.

    Look at the cut a 0:16, from the reasonable union member talking about negotiated rights to Crowder yelling “You’ve already destroyed one tent.” Connects the rational opposition to right to work laws to the potentially unlawful destruction of the Koch tent.

    Cut to 0:19, in which we move from Crowder’s plea to leave the tent alone to an unspecified time in which a union worker is very angry? What happened in the interim? Was there even an interim? Maybe this union worker cursed at Crowder before he plead on behalf of the tent. We don’t know, and he doesn’t want us to. He just want to juxtapose his plea on behalf of the tent with the profane rhetoric of the union member.

    At 0:33, we move from “Back the fuck up” to an escalation of something. We’re not shown what it is. Instead, we have another cut at 0:39 to Crowder being hit. It’s the same guy, so the audience will presume that something happened, but whatever that is wasn’t included in the video. In fact, it was deliberately edited out of the video. Why would someone do that?

    Another cut at 1:00 when Crowder’s entering the tent. This attack seems unprovoked because, well, we have no idea what’s provoked it, because not only has something been edited out, the cameraman’s moved from a position immediately to Crowder’s right to about ten feet back and to his left.

    Point being, all of these edits fall squarely into the category of “things that are done dishonestly,” because the omissions aren’t random and the result is that the person behind the edits is aggrandized. Again, I’m not being a partisan here, I’m speaking entirely about the formal properties of the video.

    SEK (74bb56)

  184. SEK,

    At your blog, you wrote the following sentence in a post you did on a recent Bruce Springsteen album;

    “Because part of the reason I’m lefter than I’ve any right to be is that this same Springsteen fellow once made me feel the anger and hopelessness to which he only here alludes.”

    I’m just curious, do you believe that a person’s general anger and hopelessness as experienced within the context of everyday life can be somehow solved or tempered by left wing policies ? In your mind, does bigger government enable people to feel less angry and hopeless ?
    I’m just trying to get the gist of where you’re coming from.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  185. “No, I’m not. Your analogy’s not analogous.”

    SEK – Yes it is. You are blaming the victim. He was there. His presence incited union supporters to violence, which you claim disingenuously you are not apologizing for. It is the same as people claiming provocative dress incites men to rape. Stop apologizing for union supporters who cannot act appropriately in public.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  186. Still, SEK, speech is not risible to battery in a public place.

    I’m not saying it is. Only that as someone who studies film and editing for a living, that video’s laughably bad, and anyone who believes it’s an accurate account of what happened shouldn’t be allowed to watch television without a chaperone.

    SEK (74bb56)

  187. “I’m just curious, do you believe that a person’s general anger and hopelessness as experienced within the context of everyday life can be somehow solved or tempered by left wing policies ?”

    SEK – Further to ES’s question, do you feel that a proper outlet for such general anger and hopelessness is committing assault and battery against people with whom you disagree or destroying public or private property?

    Like ES, just trying to get a sense of where you are coming from.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  188. I’m just curious, do you believe that a person’s general anger and hopelessness as experienced within the context of everyday life can be somehow solved or tempered by left wing policies?

    Yes. I’m sure you disagree with me, and I know our host does, but given the life I’ve lived and the thousands of students I’ve taught whose lives have been improved by what you’d consider government largess, I wholeheartedly believe in the beneficial effect of the social safety net.

    SEK (74bb56)

  189. “Only that as someone who studies film and editing for a living, that video’s laughably bad, and anyone who believes it’s an accurate account of what happened shouldn’t be allowed to watch television without a chaperone.”

    SEK – You have not provided any evidence that the substance is inaccurate, but please keep making the same assertion.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  190. You’re taking it too far. Unless he shoved the camera in their faces and kept them from using the public way, the law is that they should have ignored him not hit him.

    nk (875f57)

  191. Stop apologizing for union supporters who cannot act appropriately in public.

    Stop claiming that I am. Second sentence of my first comment: “I’m not excusing any behavior by the union members[.]” I’m not about to defend a claim I didn’t make, no matter how much you wish I’d made it.

    SEK (74bb56)

  192. Democrats kick republicans buttocks, and the buttocks retreat, as usual.

    mg (31009b)

  193. BTW, they had no duty to go around him, on the public way. “Get yourself and your camera out of my face” is the law.

    nk (875f57)

  194. Unless he shoved the camera in their faces and kept them from using the public way, the law is that they should have ignored him not hit him.

    Absolutely. But your conditional there is significant, given the blatant manipulation of the video. We don’t know what he did, but because of how poorly he edited the video, it’s obvious that he edited out something in order to make himself look better. I don’t know what that something is, and don’t claim to, I’m just saying in #191 that the manipulation’s plain as day, and I don’t trust people who edit in the style of Michael Moore. And yes, you can go to my site and read my criticisms of Michael Moore. I’m being equally opportunity honest in my assessment here.

    SEK (74bb56)

  195. … and the thousands of students I’ve taught whose lives have been improved …

    Comment by SEK (74bb56) — 12/13/2012 @ 12:22 am

    Is that a stunning lack of insight or dishonest argument? Can’t be both. I’m betting lack of insight given the flawed analogy earlier.

    Back to lurking.

    Stashiu3 (1680c0)

  196. Is that a stunning lack of insight or dishonest argument?

    This is a perfect example of dishonest editing of the sort I’m talking about. You make me seem like an egotistical asshole who thinks his class improved their lives when, if you include the rest of the quotation, it’s clear that I’m talking about their ability to attend college generally.

    SEK (74bb56)

  197. “Absolutely. But your conditional there is significant, given the blatant manipulation of the video. We don’t know what he did, but because of how poorly he edited the video, it’s obvious that he edited out something in order to make himself look better.”

    SEK – It’s an assertion on your part that the video was edited and you admit you have no idea what was edited out but assume it was footage which when deleted would make Crowder look better, but still have no idea whether it alters the overall substance of the video.

    Thank you finally for being honest instead of where you started out.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  198. I’ll go to your site and praise Springsteen. If I can navigate your comment section. ;)

    nk (875f57)

  199. “Is that a stunning lack of insight or dishonest argument? Can’t be both. I’m betting lack of insight given the flawed analogy earlier.”

    Stashiu# – The question was whether general anger and hopelessness can be solved or tempered, which SEK dodged in his answer.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  200. “You make me seem like an egotistical asshole who thinks his class improved their lives”

    SEK – What part are you denying?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  201. It’s an assertion on your part that the video was edited and you admit you have no idea what was edited out but assume it was footage which when deleted would make Crowder look better, but still have no idea whether it alters the overall substance of the video.

    Wrong. I don’t know what was edited out, but it’s obvious what was left in: material that made Crowder look rational, even-handed, spontaneously attacked, etc. Re-read #191: I’m not making any claims about what was edited out, only noting that what remains is spliced together in a way that makes Crowder look like a supremely rational and obviously innocent victim.

    SEK (74bb56)

  202. No SEK, I was talking more about your definition of “improved”. You weren’t as clear as you think and I excerpted exactly what I thought important. Just as what may have been done with the video. You may be an egotistical asshole, I don’t know. I certainly didn’t contend it.

    And this is why I don’t comment much anymore. Hope everyone is well.

    Stashiu3 (1680c0)

  203. The question was whether general anger and hopelessness can be solved or tempered, which SEK dodged in his answer.

    I’m not sure whether you’re a bigger liar or idiot, but let me quote that exchange for you:

    Elephant Stone: I’m just curious, do you believe that a person’s general anger and hopelessness as experienced within the context of everyday life can be somehow solved or tempered by left wing policies?

    SEK: Yes.

    I dodged what now? I’m not sure how I can be more definitive than that.

    SEK (74bb56)

  204. The punches were really bad, and it seems as though every lefty commentator on the web wants to believe Crowder really deserved that punching, we just can’t see *why* on the video.

    But what about the tent? Why did all those union people surround the tent(s?) and take it down, then cut it up? What right did they have to do that? What reason did they have for doing that?

    It wasn’t their property. Not the tent, and not the property the tent was on.

    MayBee (085e06)

  205. but because of how poorly he edited the video, it’s obvious that he edited out something in order to make himself look better.”

    +
    I’m not making any claims about what was edited out, only noting that what remains is spliced together in a way that makes Crowder look like a supremely rational and obviously innocent victim.

    MayBee (085e06)

  206. Claiming that “he edited out something in order to make himself look better” and claiming “that what remains is spliced together in a way that makes Crowder look like a supremely rational and obviously innocent victim” is the same thing, and neither of those same claims addresses in any way, shape or form what was edited out. The important word there, the one that you’re deliberately ignoring, is “something.”

    SEK (74bb56)

  207. Yes, it addresses what was edited out– “something” that wouldn’t make him look good (or as good) if it were left in.

    You are making claims about what was edited out, by asserting taking it out makes Crowder look better.

    That’s what you are saying. I’m not ignoring your “something”.

    MayBee (085e06)

  208. Do any republicans know how to fight back?
    Stand and Take it / 2016

    mg (31009b)

  209. 210. Anencephalous rides again, hallow Sleepy.

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  210. Does he realize he is calling himself ‘brainless’ all these years, LOl,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  211. The republican rulers want all you party members to have a gonadectomy.
    It’s working.

    mg (31009b)

  212. Do any republicans know how to fight back?
    Stand and Take it / 2016

    Comment by mg (31009b) — 12/13/2012 @ 3:10 am

    I’m with mg on this one. Crowder should have dropped the mike and fucked that fat boy up.

    papertiger (e55ba0)

  213. No cops on the green?

    Dandy. Unionized welfare queen will be walking with a limp the rest of his miserable life.

    He’d probably thank you for the permanent disability check – so everybody wins.

    papertiger (e55ba0)

  214. In case nk’s subsequent antagonistic relish hasn’t made it perfectly clear to everyone, Milhouse’s accusation of anti-semitism is about the most disingenuous accusation of anti-semitism since Jeff Goldstein accused Patterico of anti-semitism for using the word “money-grubbing.”

    Let’s see what non-antisemitic spin you can put on nk’s comment. This should be interesting.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  215. My last word. I have said enough nonsense already. Crowder signs a complaint. Or forgets it.

    Why the hell should he? What gives you the right to limit his options?

    There’s a reason we have police, courts, and prisons. So we don’t each have to do Matt Dillon on the Front Street of Dodge City.

    That is an option we have; it doesn’t preclude our other options. Self-help is always legitimate.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  216. SEK’s ‘he only looks like an innocent victim’ is too cute by half. Why even engage? We are entitled to not have our faces punched by thugs. There is no context that justifies it. SEK’s going to dance around what he’s asserting while suggesting somehow there is some kind of lie being told by Crowder with the way the video is presented.

    This is a well worn tactic at this point. We’ve seen it with many other videos showing liberals being as evil as a conservative’s most paranoid fantasy would have them.

    Sorry, SEK, the Union thugs really did tear down that tent and attack Mr Crowder in a display of massive violence intended to shut up conservative POVs.

    They all belong in prison.

    Dustin (73fead)

  217. And I agree with Milhouse that Crowder is not required to press charges if he doesn’t want to. We’ve already seen the video. That lefties say ‘forget it’ if Crowder doesn’t do what they say in response is a clumsy effort to defend violence.

    If Crowder wants to have a fair and lawful fight in a ring to settle this, that is his business. I doubt the coward who punched him when it was twenty vs one is man enough, though. I would personally prefer to see those men in a jail cell.

    Dustin (73fead)

  218. ” Just make sure the gefilte and knish are fresh. Ok, deli-boy?”

    Do we really need more proof that nk is a Jew-baiting Nazi scumbag?

    Nah. Yes, it’s literally Jew-baiting, but that’s not in itself evidence of antisemitism. He wasn’t baiting Jews in general, but only me, because I provoked him. The proof of antisemitism is in this comment, which was not directed at me, and was not provoked by anything. The problem with that comment is precisely that it’s not baiting me or anyone else. It’s not even hostile; rather, it’s a rueful “let’s be honest for a moment” kind of comment. Which is precisely the problem, because it betrays a fundamentally antisemitic worldview. He let the mask slip and we saw the ugly face behind it.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  219. I’m not excusing or being an apologist for violence, but …. Gotcha

    JD (318f81)

  220. SEK’s ‘he only looks like an innocent victim’ is too cute by half. Why even engage? We are entitled to not have our faces punched by thugs. There is no context that justifies it. SEK’s going to dance around what he’s asserting while suggesting somehow there is some kind of lie being told by Crowder with the way the video is presented.

    Bingo. The only possible justification would be if Crowder had started the fight and not by words alone. SEK admits he doesn’t know what’s on the unedited video, so he really doesn’t know whether there is any justification for what the thug did, but he wants us all to believe that Crowder is being dishonest, absent any evidence of dishonesty.

    SEK says that anyone who believes the video is accurate should not be allowed to watch television unsupervised, but he won’t tell us what about the video is inaccurate.

    Bottom line: the video depicts a union member assaulting Crowder without due justification. If that’s not accurate, then tell us the inaccuracy.

    Chuck Bartowski (11fb31)

  221. Asking questions is inciting violence.

    Arguing about a “heavily edited” video is one of their bunnies tactics to avoid the harsh reality of the leftist thuggish behavior.

    JD (9adec8)

  222. I found this on Twitter:

    Bunker91 ‏@TheRealBunker91
    @scrowder – Confusing part of your video – The guy who hit you is on the ground before you get hit by him. You pulled him off the tent?
    Retweeted by Steven Crowder
    Collapse Reply Retweet Favorite
    1
    RETWEET
    7:52 AM – 12 Dec 12 · Details

    12 Dec Steven Crowder ‏@scrowder
    @TheRealBunker91 we were shielding and pulling people off the tent as they committed felonies, yes.

    So it looks like what immediately preceded the punch was the union guy going after the tent, Crowder pulling or pushing him away, the guy stumbles, gets up, punches Crowder.

    People can decide if that would make Crowder look bad.
    People can also decide whether that gang of union people had any right to destroy the tent in the first place.

    MayBee (085e06)

  223. Claiming that “he edited out something in order to make himself look better” and claiming “that what remains is spliced together in a way that makes Crowder look like a supremely rational and obviously innocent victim” is the same thing, and neither of those same claims addresses in any way, shape or form what was edited out. The important word there, the one that you’re deliberately ignoring, is “something.”

    Comment by SEK (74bb56) — 12/13/2012 @ 1:16 am

    Why should we believe you? We were told that Emanuel Cleaver was spat at and that TEA Partiers shouted “nigger” at John Lewis, Andre Carson, and their aides, and it was reported as undeniable truth. There was no audio or video confirmation, as well as no witnesses. And yet here there is a video and that’s not good enough? How do you square that?

    Dana (292dcf)

  224. This is the evidence of my anti-semitism, according to Milhouse:

    98.And I know the Meir Kahane rules. They only apply to Israelis/Jews. And I’m sorry you made me go there.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 12/6/2012 @ 6:09 pm

    New York got too hot for Meir Kahane and he went to Israel and won himself a seat in Parliament. At that time the US/Israel diplomatic relationship was a little bit more complex than usual. America and Israel were fighting to get Jews out of the Soviet Union. Much bigger fish to fry than some militant’s renunciation of citizenship. Either a special deal was struck politically and diplomatically, about Kahane, or our State/Justice simply turned a blind eye. I would not count on it for precedential value.

    FWIW.

    nk (875f57)

  225. …as someone who studies film and editing for a living…

    Okay, after that bit, there is no reason to take this person seriously. Pure snobbish humor of the non-self aware variety. Particularly because that person, historically, heaps scorn upon arguments from authority.

    This is all—and I mean all—just excusing narrative. It’s intellectual hypocrisy of the highest order. But it’s no surprise.

    Just remember: this character (with such a storied history here) knows more than you do. Sheesh.

    Folks, who would rather hear more from? SEK or Stash? I know how I feel…based on history from each.

    I guess I am kind of an authority on it.

    Simon Jester (7a532e)

  226. We could put this character in a steel cage with Errorstein.

    THUNDERDOME!

    Because they are both, well, authorities.

    Simon Jester (7a532e)

  227. Does it ever occur to either of you that many of us do not give a whit whether you and Milhouse despise each other or not? It really would be so much more pleasant for everybody here if your personal back and forths, OT intellectual body slams, and thinly veiled insults did not take up so much space on thread after thread.

    elissa (78afd2)

  228. SEK is a serious person. He teaches communication. So is David Ehrenstein when he sticks to movies and books. I have fought with both of them. I respect them in those areas. But their Snark can be a Boojum.

    And, yes, I too would like to have Stashiu around.

    nk (875f57)

  229. Comment by elissa (78afd2) — 12/13/2012 @ 9:04 am

    Well said, elissa. I agree.

    nk (875f57)

  230. SEK,

    Since you believe that redneck union thugs are justified in throwing punches at Steven Crowder if Crowder says something allegedly “provocative,” I’m politely inquiring as to what kind of responses you would find objectionable in response to something you might write in your blog or in your book that could be perceived as “provocative.”
    After all, you’re a professional critic of literature and movies, so it’s possible that you might write something about someone’s work that they might find “provocative,” just as Steven Crowder said something allegedly “provocative” about the union workers’ work.

    Where’s the line of demarcation ?

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  231. nk,

    Even “serious” people can be blinded by their own self-importance. They perhaps more than others.

    Dana (292dcf)

  232. 208. Wrong. I don’t know what was edited out, but it’s obvious what was left in: material that made Crowder look rational, even-handed, spontaneously attacked, etc. Re-read #191: I’m not making any claims about what was edited out, only noting that what remains is spliced together in a way that makes Crowder look like a supremely rational and obviously innocent victim.

    Comment by SEK (74bb56) — 12/13/2012 @ 12:38 am

    Of course. Crowder looks like the rational and innocent one. Ergo, the tape is heavily edited.

    That’s always the leftard lie, SEK.

    Putting “I’ve studied film for dishonest editing” doesn’t make the lie any less laughable when you use it.

    Also, putting in a gratuitous “I’m not defending violence” doesn’t change the fact that everything else you say in your rants goes on to do exactly that.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  233. I don’t know, nk. You are darned charitable to these two. Ehrenstein is as close to mentally ill as I care to read, given many, many examples of his nasty personal hatred toward those with whom he disagrees. It’s difficult for me to put those comments of his aside. Perhaps that is a failing of mine.

    SEK is merely an intellectual hypocrite by comparison, quite typical of the academic fishbowl which I sadly inhabit. What is amusing about SEK is how he is guilty of the same thinking he condemns in others. There are Greek myths about such things, as you and I have discussed before.

    Simon Jester (bf1240)

  234. It’s Dana for the win. I doff my hat, ma’am.

    Simon Jester (bf1240)

  235. New York got too hot for Meir Kahane and he went to Israel and won himself a seat in Parliament. At that time the US/Israel diplomatic relationship was a little bit more complex than usual. America and Israel were fighting to get Jews out of the Soviet Union. Much bigger fish to fry than some militant’s renunciation of citizenship. Either a special deal was struck politically and diplomatically, about Kahane, or our State/Justice simply turned a blind eye. I would not count on it for precedential value.

    There’s not a word of truth in that risible “explanation”. The truth is that your mask slipped, and you betrayed a view that US law makes special favourable rules just for Jews. Which is classical antisemitism, real Protocols stuff.

    Oh, and by the way, you consistently use the word “risible” in a way that shows you have no idea what it means.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  236. 234.SEK is a serious person. He teaches communication. So is David Ehrenstein when he sticks to movies and books. I have fought with both of them. I respect them in those areas. But their Snark can be a Boojum.

    And, yes, I too would like to have Stashiu around.

    Comment by nk (875f57) — 12/13/2012 @ 9:07 am

    No, he isn’t. George Lakoff is a similarly non-serious person. He’s a professor of linguistics at UC Berkeley and author of The Little Blue Book: The Essential Guide to Thinking and Talking Democratic.

    A serious person would know you can’t switch hats from leftist advocate to supposedly objective academic, back and forth as convenient, and expect to one’s claims to objectivity to still be taken seriously. Only unserious people think they can get away with that. Everyone else realizes that such a person is simply trying to abuse whatever authority they claim to have to advance their partisan agenda.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  237. You did not take my hand, Milhouse, will you take elissa’s? Let’s just stay out of each other’s way for our host’s bandwidth sake?

    nk (875f57)

  238. Ok, Steve. Like I said, I have fought with both of them. But how can you truly hate people who like “Out of the Past” and “The River”?

    nk (875f57)

  239. nk, I didn’t say I hate them. I just take academics who also wish to be advocates any more seriously than I take Jon Stewart seriously. You know, serious commentator or comedian as it suits him.

    These are people who want to have it both ways.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  240. I just don’t take academics…

    The incredible disappearing word, courtesy of the optical mouse.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  241. You too, Simon.

    When this place becomes an echo chamber, I won’t be here.

    nk (875f57)

  242. 246.I just don’t take academics…

    Me too, Steve, me too. That’s what I fought with SEK about. I got to hate school. ;)

    nk (875f57)

  243. Was Crowder punched? Yes.

    Did Crowder physically attack anyone to provoke that? No.

    Therefore SEK’s attempt to weave up a potentiality argument based on nothing is an effort to defend something that is very wrong. Perhaps he is too steeped in political bias to understand what he’s doing, and has convinced himself this is just an exercise in extreme and weird skepticism, but that video plainly shows violence that is unjustifiable.

    Dustin (73fead)

  244. Mr nk I am leaving Chicago in a bit… Work was way more intensive than just one meeting and I need to scoot after lunch

    I’m across street from chimney of death having a latte I wish I could stay longer but it’s like fiddy dolla just to park another night

    happyfeet (2b483b)

  245. “SEK’s going to dance around…”

    He can dance to his heart’s content and the videos of the event will still show the same thing, namely alleged union members engaging in vandalism, harrassment, and assault.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  246. Good news is I scored another week

    happyfeet (2b483b)

  247. Does it ever occur to either of you that many of us do not give a whit whether you and Milhouse despise each other or not?

    It’s not about who despises whom. I despise him for this comment, in which he dares to sully the name of a far better person than he could ever hope to be, but it’s not of general significance. It makes him a vile person, but so what? Ditto for his Jew-baiting barbs at me, that FOAF pointed out above; they’re not that important. But this is the real Protocols stuff. It’s unforgivable, and he should not be allowed to live it down. People should know what sort of person he is.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  248. NK,

    “Out of the Past” has some of the greatest dialogue of any film in history, and Bruce’s “The River” is quite good, too.

    However, taste in art doesn’t necessarily equate to taste in morality or taste in philosophy.

    Stalin and Hitler were each known to be American film connoisseurs, however, that does not exclude them from being characterized as evil monsters.
    Obviously, I’m not equating SEK to either Stalin or Hitler, but the point is that SEK can have shared appreciation for some of your favorite works of art, yet still be a rotten leftist.
    Don’t kid yourself, guys like SEK and David Ehrenstein aren’t giving right wingers the benefit of the doubt about their politics when it comes to recognizing a shared appreciation for art—otherwise, Hollywood wouldn’t be blacklisting conservatives in Hollywood. And they aren’t compartmentalizing a conservative artist’s art in relation to his politics.
    After all, look at all the nasty things said about Clint Eastwood in Hollywood after his August convention speech. Look at how George Clooney used to publicly make fun of Charlton Heston’s decline due to Alzheimer’s, and that’s despite the fact that Heston was even a friend of George’s Aunt, Rosemary Clooney !

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  249. Milhouse’s accusation of anti-semitism is about the most disingenuous accusation of anti-semitism since Jeff Goldstein accused Patterico of anti-semitism for using the word “money-grubbing.”

    Are you too dense to realize Goldstein was taunting Patterico over Patterico’s own knee-jerk accusations of racism?

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  250. So Squat Epic Kweefman is in favor of people being beaten for disagreeing with an angry mob?

    Keep that in mind if he ever shows his face in front of a group of conservatives. He’s pre-approved his own epic beating.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  251. And yet here there is a video and that’s not good enough? How do you square that?

    With the left-fascists, only that which is politically convenient to them is true. Everything else is false.

    Rob Crawford (c55962)

  252. This SEK handle keeps confusing me, because I keep thinking it’s SEK3 but he’s been dead more than 8 years now. I miss him. He was nuttier than a fruitcake, but he was good people.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  253. happyfeet,

    I am also out of commission in another way. Have a safe trip.

    nk (875f57)

  254. I don’t want to get between commenters and their battles with one another, but I want to be on record that I admire the heck out of nk…particularly when I don’t agree with him.

    He makes his point of view clear, and has certainly been respectful to me when we disagree. And on those occasions, his posts have given me a lot to think about and consider.

    He reminds me a little of Greg Lukianoff of FIRE. Back in the day, I was furious about Ward Churchill, and I joined the chorus I wanted him out, out, out for his classless commentary after 9-11. Lukianoff gently skooled me the truth: the answer to speech with which you don’t agree isn’t less speech. It’s more speech.

    Besides, nk makes cool knives and I love hearing about his daughter growing up. For a bonus, he knows his classics. He even chased down my favorite Greek quote, that the word for justice is related to the word for vengeance.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  255. Comment by Elephant Stone (65d289) — 12/13/2012 @ 9:50 am

    “Out of the Past” was based on a novella “Build my Gallows High”. I read it when I was maybe thirteen. It defines noir.

    There was very good cover of “The River”, better than Springsteen’s by Joni Mitchell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVwo9IQMWM0

    nk (875f57)

  256. Dang! Wrong video.

    nk (875f57)

  257. Why should we believe you? We were told that Emanuel Cleaver was spat at and that TEA Partiers shouted “nigger” at John Lewis, Andre Carson, and their aides, and it was reported as undeniable truth. There was no audio or video confirmation, as well as no witnesses. And yet here there is a video and that’s not good enough? How do you square that?

    Well said, Dana. It is all about buggering/servicing Teh Narrative to them. Truth be damned.

    JD (9adec8)

  258. This SEK handle keeps confusing me, because I keep thinking it’s SEK3 but he’s been dead more than 8 years now. I miss him. He was nuttier than a fruitcake, but he was good people.

    Comment by Milhouse (15b6fd) — 12/13/2012

    He’s Mr Kaufmann, apparently a relatively well known liberal commentator. All I know of him is that he condemned some of the thuggery Patterico has faced (most liberals ignored it). That’s enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt as to his character, but I think he’s showing severe bias in the case of Crowder.

    Dustin (73fead)

  259. SEK is fond of using appeals to his own authority in arguments as a method of cowing other commenters. He does not like it when you push back and scratch beneath the surface and find out that authority has nothing to do with his argument, that it is totally devoid of substance.

    One of my favorite SEK appeals to authority arguments was his swearing up, down and sideways that the Scott Beauchamp Iraq Diaries were true because as a student and professor he had studied hundreds of examples of the genre. He was annointing himself as smarter than other commenters on the subject.

    It did not turn out very well.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  260. Well, he is a liberal, so I assume he’s prone to some kind of irrationality, daleyrocks. :)

    Dustin (73fead)

  261. “Are you too dense to realize Goldstein was taunting Patterico over Patterico’s own knee-jerk accusations of racism?”

    Rob – Patterico’s accusations of racism were about another blogger, not Goldstein, and there was nothing knee-jerk about them. I disagreed with them, but you can go back and read the posts and comments for yourself. Goldstein’s reaction to Patterico’s posts was the knee-jerk reaction in that incident, which is typical Goldstein behavior.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  262. I would just note that the assault on Crowder, in some jurisdictions, would be grounds to defend yourself with all available force, until the assault is terminated.

    In Texas, there is a very high probability that the assaulter would be either in intensive-care, or the morgue.
    Something similar IIRC happened recently in FL.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  263. He was there with a camera asking incendiary questions, which, if you’d like your analogy to hold, would be the equivalent of a woman walking into a bar full of rapists, lifting up her dress, and yelling “Who has dibs?”

    Comment by SEK (74bb56) — 12/13/2012 @ 12:01 am

    Asking Democrats why they think what they think is likely a very incendiary question in their minds.

    Gerald A (f26857)

  264. How can you ask someone “what they think”, when it is perfectly obvious that they are incapable of such an act.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  265. He reminds me a little of Greg Lukianoff of FIRE. Back in the day, I was furious about Ward Churchill, and I joined the chorus I wanted him out, out, out for his classless commentary after 9-11. Lukianoff gently skooled me the truth: the answer to speech with which you don’t agree isn’t less speech. It’s more speech.

    More speech such as exposing what sort of scum Churchill was. Which is what I’m doing to nk.

    But on the subject of Churchill I think you were right and Lukianoff wrong; Churchill has the right to say whatever he likes, but he’s not a fit person for the state to hire to teach students. Or for any private university to hire for that purpose; it reflects poorly on the employer.

    Milhouse (15b6fd)

  266. He was there with a camera asking incendiary questions,

    Clearly it’s OK to break his teeth with fists for being a conservative journalist asking questions to union goons that SEK thinks are not acceptable to be asked.

    I don’t think the word liberal is accurate when describing this anti freedom mentality.

    It is true that the core basis for opposition to right to work is very ugly, and questions leading to this truth will outrage those who want this hidden (so they can personally benefit). This is just another side to the coin of beating down those who disagree with you about using government to foist democrat payoffs (union dues).

    They use force because reason is not enough.

    Dustin (73fead)

  267. “SEK is fond of using appeals to his own authority in arguments…”

    Well, if I was impressed by professional students and people who make their money by sucking off the taxpayers via the public university system I might accept him as an authority of some sort.

    But, I’m not impressed by that.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  268. That’s enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt as to his character

    You are far more generous than is warranted. Racist

    JD (318f81)

  269. You are far more generous than is warranted. Racist

    Comment by JD (318f81) — 12/13/2012

    Well, that might be my trademark. As I said, my familiarity with him is very limited, but I appreciated what I was familiar with.

    I’ve given the benefit of the doubt to several folks who turn out to be insane or scum, sadly.

    Dustin (73fead)

  270. I am happy to see that Stashiu3 is still lurking even if not routinely commenting. It’s good to know that there are a few around who can give me a good reality check when necessary.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  271. “Back in the day, I was furious about Ward Churchill, and I joined the chorus I wanted him out, out, out for his classless commentary after 9-11.”

    Simon – With Churchill, you also had issues of plagiarism and resume fraud. There should have been more speech about that.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  272. Ward should have run for U.S. Senate – that turned out well for the other faux-Indian professor.

    askeptic (b8ab92)

  273. Is it possible that some of y’all might be a little too seduced by SEK’s academic credentials ?

    I fall somewhere between Winston Churchill’s, “Democracy is the worst form of government…except for all the other forms and William Buckley’s, “I’d rather be governed by the first 500 names in the Cambridge telephone directory than the 500 faculty members at Harvard.”

    I’ve read some of the stuff at SEK’s blog, and he’s definitely a talented writer and thinker. I particularly enjoyed reading his little dialogue between him and his cat regarding the cat’s fight with packing tape.

    But academic credentials do not inherently make for a moral thinker. It’s a sad state of affairs when a guy with a PhD is so educated that he believes that peaceably voicing an opposing public policy position outside a state capital to a group of union activists is justification for being socked in the head by a union activist who disagrees with him.
    And I bet that same guy with the PhD would support Bob Costas’ gun control views due to his concern about “violence.”

    In other words, “violence is justifiable for me, but not for thee !”

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  274. Daley and all: when Ward Churchill lied and plagiarized, yes indeed he should have been sacked for his work-related academic offenses.

    But for being a jackhole about 9-11? Much as I despise what he wrote, no, I don’t think so.

    I don’t know what he is doing now. He keeps trying to appeal his dismissal, and it keeps getting denied:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Churchill_academic_misconduct_investigation

    Churchill wants to go before SCOTUS, for God’s sake.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  275. Just like the barn wall in Animal Farm.

    Harrison (9d30f3)

  276. Truem but there is a certain commonality, Warren made her reputation on personal misrepresentation, and bogus academic research, it only stands to reason that her political views were that blinkered,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  277. You guys need tinfoil hats, watch a longer unedited video.

    craig (4ed846)

  278. Unedited Crowder

    Comment by craig (4ed846)

    I see Crowder being a peaceful man being battered by a gang of thugs shouting about how they will kill people with a gun.

    I have no idea why you are saying your video undermines Crowder when it bolsters that the unions are violent thugs, if that’s what you’re saying.

    I guess it’s like Empty Wheel’s shtick.

    Dustin (73fead)

  279. Craig,

    I watched the video twice. I don’t see the point you are straining to make. Would you explain, please? And, yes, I’m a slow learner, so humor me.

    Dana (292dcf)

  280. Don’t expect Craig to be back and explain himself.

    He’s “refuted” Crowder with a link, don’tcha know, is back high-fiving his fellow-inmates waiting for their jello-cups.

    Pious Agnostic (20c167)

  281. Dana,

    I think Craig is suggesting that if you slow down the frames, you can see where there’s someone standing over on the grassy knoll who actually throws a rock, which actually hits Crowder in the side of the head.
    It just so happens that the point of impact of the rock coincides with the very second that the peaceable union activist slips and falls, which gives the illusion that he’s throwing a punch at Crowder, when indeed, it is merely a rock that hits Crowder—not the peaceable union activist’s fist.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  282. And that “someone” on the grassy knoll is Sean Hannity. Hannity threw the rock at Crowder.

    Elephant Stone (65d289)

  283. “I’m not sure whether you’re a bigger liar or idiot, but let me quote that exchange for you:

    Elephant Stone: I’m just curious, do you believe that a person’s general anger and hopelessness as experienced within the context of everyday life can be somehow solved or tempered by left wing policies?

    SEK: Yes.”

    SEK – I have no explanation for how I could have overlooked your expansive and illuminating one word answer to the question posed by Elephant Stone while addressing a different topic in the same comment. There was clearly no dodging going on in that one word answer. My apologies. The fault is all mine.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  284. “You guys need tinfoil hats, watch a longer unedited video.”

    Just for myself, I think I’ve already seen enough cursing, harassment, violence and vandalism being carried out by alleged union members.

    At least for now.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  285. That video clearly shows Crowder pummeling multiple peaceful activists prior to him being beaten. And it shows the concern for everyone’s safety when the young peacenik screams out that someone has a gun, then gives an eloquent speech on killing people with guns.

    “Craig” is a drooling moron.

    JD (9adec8)

  286. “Is it possible that some of y’all might be a little too seduced by SEK’s academic credentials ?”

    Perpetual student who morphed into English lecturer at U.C. Irvine???

    Gee, I’m overwhelmed.

    :)

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  287. Craig, just what is it that your hallucinations make you think that you see in that video that no one else sees?

    SPQR (768505)

  288. “Is it possible that some of y’all might be a little too seduced by SEK’s academic credentials ?”

    Elephant Stone – No. I can agree with you that SEK is a talented writer, but having had exposure to his attempts to persuade others to his perspective, I am not impressed. With his frequent appeals to authority or sophistry through polysyllabic profundity, there is all too often no there, there.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  289. Elephant Stone @ 289,

    Thanks so much for the explanation. It all makes sense now!

    That Craig has nothing on you.

    Dana (292dcf)

  290. polysyllabic profundity

    Heh.

    The challenge is to keep it precise and concise with minimal verbiage to slog through, lest your listeners die of boredom or worse, are rendered so numb that even watching an episode of Real Housewives for the third time is preferable.

    Dana (292dcf)

  291. You are all too stoopid to appreciate SEKS profundity, verbosity, and his ability to say in 643578865 words what can be said in 20.

    And you are racist too.

    JD (9adec8)

  292. SEK who?

    …the thousands of students I’ve taught whose lives have been improved by what you’d consider government largess…”

    Government largess which lands in SEK’s pocket, eventually. What’s not to love?

    papertiger (e55ba0)

  293. He’s laughing at us for thinking a fist hit Crowder instead of a secret missile fired on Bush’s orders.

    I guess. I didn’t really see anything on the tape but thuggees.

    SarahW (b0e533)

  294. nk makes cool knives

    I never posted that picture of the push dagger I made, from an old file, leftover plumbing connectors, and leftover walnut from a gunstock, did I? Give me a week or so, I can’t get to my basement around now. And even then, don’t hold me to my word; it might take longer.

    The trouble with a 68 or so Rockwell knife, that can punch through an eighth inch of tool steel, is that you cannot trust any sheath for it. There’s, actually, some philosophic concept there.

    nk (875f57)

  295. 41. 67. 72. 83. 162

    This is a link to exactly what Rush Limbaugh said yesterday about union money laundering. (he hit on this idea a little while ago)

    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/12/12/what_s_at_stake_in_michigan_union_fight_the_democrat_money_laundering_operation

    This is most of it, giving his whole argument:

    RUSH: Unions are not about jobs. Unions are not about wages….I think it’s time for me maybe to revisit something about this union fight. In the real world, if you’re talking about real statistics that matter, such as how many jobs are created in states that are right-to-work. And, by the way, right-to-work simply means one thing: You get a job without being forced to join a union. You can get a job without being forced to pay union dues. That is the real problem as far as the unions are concerned. It’s the dues.

    The dues, ladies and gentlemen, are nothing more than a money-laundering operation. That is all union dues are. I explained this many times in the past, but I want to go through this again to help put what’s happening in Michigan, what did happen in Wisconsin and Indiana, in perspective. It’s not about jobs. It isn’t about wages. It’s not about benefits. Those are the things that get all the attention. Those are the things that are said will be taken away from people with right-to-work, but that’s not at all what this is about.

    To explain this, let me first tell you what the Democrat Party is. The Democrat Party is made up of a bunch of coalitions. There are the feminists. There’s labor. The civil rights groups. The militant gay community, militant, politically active gay activists, and a number of disparate offshoots of each of those. They each have their own separate agendas, but the one thing that unites them is socialism, or big government. Command-and-control government authority, ever-expanding government is the one thing, that’s the glue that holds them all together. The Democrat Party allows various leaders from each group to sit at its table of power, as long as those people hold up their end of the deal. Now, in the case of the Reverend Jackson or the Reverend Sharpton, they get a seat at the Democrat Party table of power, as long as they deliver 93 to 95% of the black vote every presidential year. The union leaders of all the different unions — they’re not all equal in the Democrat Party. Some have more power within the party than others. Some have a greater status. For example, with Obama, it’s SEIU.

    The SEIU union is the number one union. That’s the union Obama’s closest to. They’re the largest. The autoworkers are a very close second. It’s not a wide gap, but not all unions are equal, and not all civil rights groups are equal within the Democrat Party. Not everybody running a union, for example, gets a seat at the table of power in the Democrat Party. The reason the unions get a seat at the table of power in the Democrat Party and what this is all about in Michigan and what it was all about in Wisconsin, what it was all about in Indiana, is money. It has nothing to do with jobs for the members. It has nothing to do with benefits or wages. Those are all the public things used to arouse public support and sympathy for the supposed downtrodden union members.

    But that’s not what it’s about as far as the leaders of the Democrat Party and the leaders of the union are concerned. It is a money-laundering operation. Barack Obama or any Democrat president cannot simply write himself a check from the US Treasury. But they still want the money. They want the money for perpetual, never-ending campaigns, or whatever other reason they need money for. Now, the way it works with unions, the unions are exclusively tied to the Democrat Party. Have you ever wondered why?

    Well, the popular reason stated is that the unions are made up of “working people,” and the Democrat Party, of course, is for the workingman, and that translates to “the little guy,” the downtrodden, the put-upon, the taken advantage of. It’s the worker who exists in sweatshop in slave-labor circumstances. The Republicans own this sweatshop. This is the public persona. This is not the way it is.

    This is the perception. This is what the American people have been told for decades. The Republicans are the slave masters. They are the sweatshop owners. They are the big, evil Mr. Potters who are making sure that the little guys are spending the night in the snow along with the homeless. And so the union and Democrat Party alliance exists publicly, as far as perception is concerned, for fairness.

    The Democrat Party is defending “the little guy.” The Democrat Party is defending and protecting worker, the slave, the oppressed blue-collar worker against the mean-spirited, extremist, rotten, low-wage-paying, Republican businessman. Now, none of that is true anymore, but you go ask an average American, and that’s what he or she will think. So Obama can’t write himself a check from the Treasury.

    No Democrat can just write a check to the unions.

    Obama’s getting close, though, to being able to do that. So what happens is this: The Democrat Party works in concert with unions to help them secure major, major, lucrative contracts. And notice, by the way, that more and more union workers are government employees. And note that more and more government employees make sometimes twice as much as the people in the private sector whose taxes are paying their salaries and their benefits and their lifetime health care and their lifetime pensions.

    In exchange for the Democrat Party securing contracts — pressuring businesses, doing everything they can to support the unions in these fights — the unions collect dues from their members. The dues are then, 90%, spent on Democrats. [SIC] That’s the money laundering, and that’s why there is hell to pay now in Michigan. It is that that is being upset. It is the money-laundering operation that’s being blow up.

    Because if you make it possible for somebody to get a job in Michigan in [a place where there is] a union and they don’t have to join the union and they don’t have to pay the dues, then that’s money the Democrat Party is not getting. That means that job doesn’t matter to the union or the Democrat Party. They say they’re interested in employment? They couldn’t care less! They want the dues. The dues end up where?

    The dues are spent in advertising for Democrat candidates. The dues end up as donations to Democrat candidates. That’s the money laundering. Union contracts are made, union labor, the money is paid by the business, the employer. Those funds largely end up back in the Democrat Party. It’s a circuitous, roundabout way for money to end up in the Democrat Party that nobody can really trace or follow and everybody accepts.

    It’s part of the political process. You’re free to donate to whoever you wish within the bounds of the law. But when right-to-work comes up and somebody’s allowed to get a job in a state, in a [place where there is a] union, without joining the union and therefore there are no dues, that means no money will be transferred to the Democrat Party either by way of donations or money spent in advertising for Democrat candidates.

    And that’s what this is all about.

    At the leadership level, that’s all this is about. It isn’t about poor, downtrodden workers. That’s what it’s said to be about so that sympathy and compassion are aroused among the low-information, average Americans watching this. But that isn’t what’s going on. The unions couldn’t care less. The Democrat Party couldn’t care less. If you go to states… The numbers have been run, and they’re all over the place.

    Right-to-work states have higher employment and higher wages. [?] People make more money, on average, in right-to-work states than people who work in you-must-join-the-union states.

    Employment is higher and wages are higher in state after state after state. So that’s what’s at stake here. What’s at stake is the Democrat Party having its money-laundering operation blown smithereens. It is a roadblock.

    Actually, it’s not a roadblock. It’s an actual end to the union funding of the Democrat Party. It’s that funding which keeps them at the table of power, don’t forget. The deal for the union leaders is, they get a seat at the Democrat Party table of power because they facilitate this flow of money back to the party from union members. When that’s interrupted, when that doesn’t happen, the union leader ceases to be of value to the Democrat Party.

    The Union Leader is thus denied a seat, theoretically, at the table. Now, it hasn’t happened yet but this is what will happen.

    Because the Democrat Party’s coalition is made up of these various disparate groups, and they must come through. They must perform. The union leader’s job is to make sure that all of that dues money, the vast majority of it, ends up back in the hands of the Democrat Party or is spent on advertising to elect Democrats.

    The denial of that money by virtue of no longer requiring them to pay dues is a direct threat to the finances of the Democrat Party. The union leaders cease to have any value to the Democrat Party. And that’s why they are willing to engage in bloodletting and violence. It’s not to defend their rank and file. It’s not in defense of wages and health care. That’s just what they say. It’s not about oppression and the evil business owners.

    It’s not about that at all, folks.

    This is purely and simply about a source of funding to the Democrat Party being interrupted or blockaded or denied.

    [Except that it would have only a very small effect at first]

    BREAK TRANSCRIPT

    RUSH: Let me give you perhaps the best example of the money-laundering operation I can think of, and that would be Obama’s stimulus: $787 billion. By the time it ended, it was close to a trillion dollars. Now, do you remember how that was sold? That was pitched as money for shovel-ready jobs, repairs of bridges and roads and schools, and do you remember that none of that happened? Do you recall where that money went?

    The lion’s share went to unions.

    For example, in Wisconsin, 90% of the stimulus money in Wisconsin went to unions, public sector unions. Ninety percent of it went to teachers unions and government workers. That’s the money laundering. Obama can’t write himself a check from the Treasury, but he came in with $787 billion. And all over this country, it went to union members. It went to maintain union unemployment.

    Teachers didn’t lose their jobs while everybody else did.

    Government workers did not lose their jobs while everybody else did.

    And since they kept their jobs, they continued to pay dues. And the dues are what end up being donated back to the Democrat Party or used by the union to fund advertising to elect Democrats. So essentially a large percentage of the $787 billion from the federal Treasury was sent to the unions across this country, keeping union workers employed, keeping them paying their dues. The dues then come back to Obama and the Democrats.

    That’s the money-laundering operation, and that’s what the stimulus was about.

    It’s that simple.

    It isn’t complicated.

    It’s not really a conspiracy. It’s not new. It’s the way it has always happened.

    And that’s what’s at stake when a state goes right-to-work.

    BREAK TRANSCRIPT

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  296. One thing: I don’t think the vast majority of dues goes into campaigns, not even in the teacher’s unions.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  297. I was raised to understnd that “government largess” is taxpayer largess.

    elissa (78afd2)

  298. Communication is important. In any walk of life. Applying for a job interview for instance? Talking a police officer out of a ticket? SEK is not on welfare, he is doing valuable work.

    And does anybody know what happened to David? Has he been banned again? (I don’t like going to his site because it’s not child-safe and my daughter steals my computer all the time.)

    nk (875f57)

  299. Sammy, you really expect anybody to read your last post?

    nk (875f57)

  300. Actually we have an interesting example with the former school union chief, his actions came to note, in part because the candidates he supported, Hillary and Alex Sink, lost,

    narciso (ee31f1)

  301. He was there with a camera asking incendiary questions

    Incendiary is in the eye of the beholder. He was reporting on the event.

    Does he have a right to do that?

    Patterico (8b3905)

  302. nk, you have to recall that Ehrenstein went on a huge happy tizzy that Andrew Breitbart was a drug addict and deserved to die. He refused to back down, even when gently remonstrated with on the topic. He tends to get all happy and mean spirited when people with whom he disagrees die. And our esteemed host was quite upset with Breitbart’s demise, and Ehrenstein’s gleeful urinating on his fresh grave.

    Several people who post here were well aware how Ehrenstein had tried to cultivate Breitbart in the early days of the HP, and felt that such mean spirited hypocrisy was well and truly icky.

    So my guess is that he is banned, and in my opinion rightfully so. I admire your ability to look past his unpleasantness, but—again, my problem, surely—I cannot.

    I wish him well, but far, far away from anywhere I frequent, electronically or otherwise.

    Simon Jester (bf1240)

  303. Lets see some examples of incendiary. Because there are many things that incendiary is definately NOT. Asking about the tent swarm is not.

    Sarahw (b0e533)

  304. Was Crowder the voice asking “What gives you the right [to tear down someone's tent?]“?

    Did the tent say something smart alecy about Upton Sinclair?

    Dustin (73fead)

  305. Legal Insurrection: Union “Vice-Griever” who shouted expletives at Michigan protest is city councilman

    This is from the “you can’t make this stuff up” category.

    Fox2 Detroit (via Riehl World News) identifies the person who famously shouted various expletives during the attack on the Americans For Prosperity tent (but did not himself engage in any violence):

    Who is he? “I am the vice-griever for Local 1299, United Steelworkers,” says Wheeler Marsee.

    He’s also a City Council member in Melvindale, a downriver suburb of Detroit. He tells FOX 2 he and a few friends came to participate in a peaceful protest against right to work. And things were all good, until they weren’t. “There was people up there that were rebel-rousing the crowd,” says Marsee. “The next thing I knew, I had the gentleman in question right up in my face. The video didn’t give it justice because he was the aggressor.”

    Marsee is talking about the Crowder, who claims he was trying to protect the people and the integrity of that tent. Marsee says he did not touch any person or any property.

    “You’ve already destroyed one tent, leave the tent alone,” Crowder can be heard saying in the video.

    “Get the (expletive) out of my face,” replies Marsee.

    “You hurt a lady in there,” say Crowder.

    “Stop rushing me, man. I didn’t hurt nobody,” says Marsee.

    Marsee says he didn’t know, or care, who Crowder was. “He literally got six inches from my face.”

    Actually, the video does not show Crowder six inches from Marsee’s face, not even close.

    Again, does anyone really doubt that the Union mob had a reason to believe the police would let them get away with their violence? Just as the Occupy mob in Oakland had a reason to believe the same thing because the Mayor, Jean Quan, supported them and her husband and daughter joined in the protest?

    In Lansing the protesters were yelling “Scab! Scab!” at the police and the police were in fact reluctant to interfere.

    Steve57 (25fb74)

  306. This is just great. Really. Who cares about who hit whom?

    Just like Wisconsin and Ohio, the GOP stupidly cuts off its nose to spite its face (again!) and hands Michigan over to the Democrats for the next generation.

    Oh, wait….

    dogbroth (bad88b)

  307. 309 Comment by nk (875f57) — 12/13/2012 @ 4:48 pm

    Sammy, you really expect anybody to read your last post?

    I boldfaced it, and made it a quote. Maybe it is a little long. But I still did not quote the entire web page.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.6657 secs.