Patterico's Pontifications

10/14/2012

Arlen Specter Dies

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 11:53 am



82 years old.

I’ll always remember him as the guy who helped “Bork” Robert Bork.

That said, he did fight hard for Clarence Thomas.

Regardless of politics, R.I.P.

164 Responses to “Arlen Specter Dies”

  1. No comments yet? Perhaps it’s because there’s no “puke” key on the keyboard.

    Steve (e03e79)

  2. RIP

    JD (43ce10)

  3. As Patterico writes, we do owe him a debt of gratitude for how hard he fought on behalf of the confirmation of Clarence Thomas. I recall how he was vilified by the left for that principled stand. I wonder if the amount of vitriol he was subjected to ultimately got to him, and made him start drifting towards the Democrats by way of apology. RIP.

    JVW (f5695c)

  4. He got his start by pimping the single bullet theory where JFK and Connelly were repeatedly struck by the same bullet over a period of 10 seconds, which was then found in pristine condition on a Parkland Hospital gurney.

    It was the linchpin of the Warren Report and “they” really owed him after that. I have utterly no sympathy for the man.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  5. Wikipedia’s summary is fairly good:

    According to the Single Bullet Theory, a three-centimeter (1.2″)-long copper-jacketed lead-core 6.5-millimeter rifle bullet fired from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository passed through President Kennedy’s neck and Governor Connally’s chest and wrist and embedded itself in the Governor’s thigh. If so, this bullet traversed 15 layers of clothing, 7 layers of skin, and approximately 15 inches of tissue, struck a necktie knot, removed 4 inches of rib, and shattered a radius bone. The bullet was found on a gurney in the corridor at the Parkland Memorial Hospital, in Dallas, after the assassination. The Warren Commission found that this gurney was the one that had borne Governor Connally.[3] This bullet became a key Commission exhibit, identified as CE 399. Its copper jacket was completely intact. While the bullet’s nose appeared normal, the tail was compressed laterally on one side.

    In its conclusion, the Warren Commission found “persuasive evidence from the experts” that a single bullet caused the President’s neck wound and all the wounds in Governor Connally.[4] It acknowledged that there was a “difference of opinion” among members of the Commission “as to this probability”, but stated that the theory was not essential to its conclusions and that all members had no doubt that all shots were fired from the sixth floor window of the Depository building.

    Most pro- and anti-conspiracy theorists believe[5] that the Single Bullet Theory is essential to the Warren Commission’s conclusion that Oswald acted alone. The reason for this is timing: if, as the Warren Commission found, President Kennedy was wounded some time between frame 210 and 225 of the Zapruder film [6] and Governor Connally was wounded in the back/chest no later than frame 240,[7] there would not have been enough time between the wounding of the two men for Oswald to have fired two shots from his bolt action rifle. FBI marksmen, who test-fired the rifle for the Warren Commission, concluded that the “minimum time for getting off two successive well-aimed shots on the rifle is approximately 2 and a quarter seconds” or 41 to 42 Zapruder frames.[8][9]

    There are few prosecutors who would care to make this kind of evidence the centerpiece of their case. but Specter had no such qualms.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  6. I recommend “Case Closed” by Gerald Posner, ordered through Pat’s convenient Amazon link over there on the right.

    Pious Agnostic (2c3220)

  7. I always felt that everything he did he did for himself. Any benefit to anyone else was merely incidental. I switched my party affiliation in the last primary he was in just to vote against him. Life-long “public service” politicians like him should be forced to work in the real world. He was the best argument for term limits (short of Barney Frank and Ted Kennedy) I know.

    dfbaskwill (c021f2)

  8. Holly Maddux is unavailable for comment

    Ira Einhorn (721840)

  9. Politics included, may that old LIAR Rot in Hell!

    ‘recommend “Case Closed” by Gerald Posner’? What for? A door stop? Yeah, those stockbrokers are real geniuses at forensic investigations of unicorn farts.

    Guess neither Pious, Spector nor Posner got the message that the official position of the Congress in that there were at least two gunmen firing from two places on 11/22/63, based upon scientific anaylysis of sound recordings. But then, who needs science?

    earl t (1494e5)

  10. My father was a fan of the military 6.5mm*. He related how it would pass through two feet of a healthy tree trunk whereas the 8mm Mauser would not. 6.5mm Swedish Mausers are still very popular with varminters after seventy years, both because of the cartridge and of the action. The cartridge maintains both its velocity and height of trajectory up to at least seven hundred yards.

    *This was a Carcano, but the Mannlicher and Swedish are the same. Slight difference in headspace.

    nk (875f57)

  11. He got his start by pimping the single bullet theory where JFK and Connelly were repeatedly struck by the same bullet over a period of 10 seconds, which was then found in pristine condition on a Parkland Hospital gurney.

    The bullet was NOT pristine.

    Guess neither Pious, Spector nor Posner got the message that the official position of the Congress in that there were at least two gunmen firing from two places on 11/22/63, based upon scientific anaylysis of sound recordings. But then, who needs science?

    It was flawed science. Nobody needs that.

    One person shot JFK: Lee Harvey Oswald. There is a lot of malarkey floating around tending to suggest a conspiracy, but it’s the same kind of bunk that leads people to conclude O.J. Simpson didn’t kill Nicole Brown or Ron Goldman.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  12. And if you’ve ever been to the Sixth Floor Museum you know how close the shot actually was.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  13. earl, I presume you haven’t read the book, for if you had you’d realize it is more than a door stop. Go ahead and order it through Pat’s Amazon link.

    Upon reading it, you will either be convinced by his logical evaluation of the evidence or you will not. Either way, Pat’ll benefit from the Amazon order.

    Or, don’t. I don’t really care.

    Pious Agnostic (2c3220)

  14. I think “copper-alloy jacket” would be more accurate, BTW, but it is Wikipedia.

    nk (875f57)

  15. I don’t think “Case Closed” is the final word. But I am convinced Oswald acted alone.

    Patterico (8b3905)

  16. I certainly hope we’re not giving credence to Anthony Pellicano’s “science.”

    Patterico (8b3905)

  17. I don’t think “Case Closed” is the final word. But I am convinced Oswald acted alone.

    You are probably right. In the early 90s I got very interested in the JFK assassination, and as we all know, there are all sorts of interesting conspiracy theories and conflicting evidence.

    Then I read “Case Closed” and it convinced me that Oswald was the single shooter and that he acted alone. Since then, I stopped following up on other theories. There may be superior works, but unless they can overcome Posner’s arguments, I don’t have the time for them.

    Pious Agnostic (2c3220)

  18. If the course of the bullet is the conspiracists’ main argument, then I also agree that it was a Marine-trained marksman firing one shot with a fine rifle and a fine cartridge.

    nk (875f57)

  19. Specter does not stick in my mind from the Bork hearings. I remember Kennedy and some guy from Ohio, braying from their seats. I was already an attorney, doing criminal trial, and thinking that those guys were not fit to carry Bork’s briefcase. Bork rubbed people the wrong way. He was a “shinkicker”. Prosecutors opposed him.

    nk (875f57)

  20. Just one less vote for Obama.

    Ipso Fatso (1e3278)

  21. May he take with him to his grave his silly notion of “super-precedents.”

    Beldar (d8195e)

  22. I’ll remember him as “Senator Not Proven.”

    Beldar (d8195e)

  23. And what was that Specter drivel about Scottish law? Something other than guilty and not guilty? What do the cheese-eating surrender monkeys think of Arlen, since he was so instrumental is Eichorn’s walking away to French asylum all those years? At least Specter gave saint anita hill a hard time. Let’s keep race-traitor Thomas off of scotus because he’s sexist and was said to put pubic hair on coke cans? Of course Hill managed to follow him to next job.

    Calypso Louis Farrakhan (e799d8)

  24. “Case closed” is a good summation of why the JFK conspiracy theories are all fabrications. As mentioned the 6.5 Carcano is an effective round and the range and angle made for a fairly easy rifle shot. A decent shot can replicate it all day. A skilled rifleman would do better than two hits from three rounds that Oswald made.

    nk, I’ve taken elk with the 6.5 Swede, something I’d be reluctant to do with the Carcano.

    SPQR (1b5f6f)

  25. And if you’ve ever been to the Sixth Floor Museum you know how close the shot actually was.

    yep… been to the memorial too. A very sobering experience.

    Colonel Haiku (8407ec)

  26. I remember him as a champion of the Second Amendment. Air Force officer, I don’t remember much else.

    Rest in peace, sir, you served your country well.

    I was told in USMC Boot Camp that I’d be taught to be a better shot than Oswald … and I was. So were most Marines.

    htom (412a17)

  27. MontanaGodloveyabutthereisn’tabiggerassholethan Governor Brian Schweitzer

    Colonel Haiku (8407ec)

  28. I don’t like this. You get the feeling that he died because he lost his bid for re-election. Losing an election shouldn’t cause that.

    But being a United States Senator was his life, or his long tenure had made it so, and he wasn’t ready to retire – certainly not to be dismissed. In the middle almost. He didn’t plan his exit, and he’d lost his seniority before.

    His immune system was affected.

    It’s a little like people who go into a nursing home, and then die. Although there maybe they are exposed to pathogens and an inadequate, nutritionally deficient (for them) diet.

    Or do you think that’s wrong, and he would have died anyway, at just about this time, had he remained in the Senate?

    That would mean he would not have served have served out even half his 6-year term, and there would have to be a special election early in 2013.

    Arlen Spector would have been better off going out as a Republican – contesting a primary, and if he loses, he loses. He apparently could not do what Joe Lieberman did in Connecticut in 2006, because the election laws are different in Pennsylvania and Connecticut and he could not run as a third party candidate. Not that he necessarily could have won. But he would have felt better about it.

    Joe Lieberman felt he could not do this again as a planned strategy in 2012, and he retired.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bb022)

  29. The thing about Scottish law is that in some circumstances, the jury is allowed to return one of four verdicts:

    Guilty. You did it and they proved it.

    Not proven. You did it but they didn’t prove it.

    Not guilty. Maybe you did, maybe you didn’t; they didn’t prove it.

    Innocent. You didn’t do it (there is usually a flavor of shouldn’t have been charged.)

    Whether this would be better or worse — for defense, prosecution, jury, or accused — I’m sure has been discussed many times.

    htom (412a17)

  30. Won’t be missed.

    Rodney King's Spirit (9ce6d4)

  31. I don’t like this. You get the feeling that he died because he lost his bid for re-election.

    fer chrissakes, he was 82 years old, Sammy.

    Colonel Haiku (8407ec)

  32. Yep, those 25 caliber bullets sure are tricky: Spector’s 2nd magic bullet fired from above and behind the President managed to circle around counter clockwise about 120 degrees and strike JFK in the right temple.

    Which was eerily similar to Sirhan Sirhan’s 22 caliber bullet which was fired from in front and to Robert Kennedy’s left. It too circled counter clockwise, this time about 220 degrees and hit RFK behind the right ear and was later determined at autopsy to have been fired from no more than 2 inches away from the back of Kennedy’s head even though Sirhan’s gun extended at full arm’s length never got within two feet of RFK.

    ropelight (14ec8b)

  33. he was emblematic of several foul diseases in our politics

    a very mccain-like little creature I thought him

    happyfeet (91a217)

  34. BHO just lost a vote in a swing state.

    Ed from SFV (4a2220)

  35. Sammy,

    Given his health problems, I think Specter lived a long time. First, he was diagnosed with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma in 2002.and the average life expectancy is 10 years. In addition, Patterico’s link says Specter had “a brain tumor and survived cardiac arrest following bypass surgery.”

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  36. I’m trying to write a song what rhymes with malignant

    happyfeet (91a217)

  37. If I die at 82, I’ll thank God and demand ten years’ time served from the Devil.

    nk (875f57)

  38. I don’t like this. You get the feeling that he died because he lost his bid for re-election. Losing an election shouldn’t cause that.

    Good grief, Sammy Finkleman, I certainly didn’t get that feeling at all. What a statement! He died because it was his time to die – he was an old man with serious health issues. And whether one agreed with his politics or not, it’s good to bear in mind that he was one woman’s husband for 59 years and the father of two sons who loved him, as well as having served our country in the Air Force.

    Dana (292dcf)

  39. Indeed, RIP. Politically, though, he won’t be missed.

    BillC (89e68e)

  40. He will be defined by the ‘Magic Bullet’. Eventually, it catches up with all of us.

    Nagual (14d761)

  41. I’m trying to write a song what rhymes with malignant

    I dunno. But ‘sad clown’ is an apt metaphor.

    Nagual (14d761)

  42. ropelight, your view of the JFK assassination is simply nonsense. As for the RFK autopsy, well Thomas Noguchi did that on RFK so of course it was botched.

    SPQR (768505)

  43. Baby cried the day old Arlen came to town

    happyfeet (032f7e)

  44. I’d like to remember his “principled” defense of Clarence Thomas, but I don’t think it was principled. Robert Bork was in the first year of his term(1987), Thomas in the last(1991). Specter was a master of being a Democrat for 5 years and a Republican for one. It wasn’t until he voted for Obamacare that he realized he had gone a step too far, and finally made a vote that wouldn’t be forgotten so quickly.

    DanH (0cf401)

  45. It’s not really a good analogy but Specter reminded me a little of Forrest Gump, because he was a part of so many political stories over the years.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  46. I bet he knew a lot of interesting stories.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  47. Grams, a noble lady, always said “If you can’t say anything good about a person, don’t say anything at all.”

    gary gulrud (dd7d4e)

  48. SPQR, say what you will, but the doctors at Parkland Hospital identified two entry wounds, one just below JFK’s Adam’s apple and the other in his right temple. After the body was forcibly removed from Dallas, a military autopsy at Bethesda found significantly different results.

    Several eye witnesses closest to the President’s limo when he was shot point to the grassy knoll. John Connolly says he was hit by a separate shot and not from Spector’s magic bullet. Two of Kennedy’s WH staffers riding in the front seat said the fatal head shot came from the right front, and the beat goes on and on.

    The evidence of a coordinated assassination and subsequent cover-up is clear as a bell and overwhelming, but that’s no reason to let the facts get in the way of your opinions.

    ropelight (14ec8b)

  49. ropelight, no. The wounds to his temple and below his throat were exit wounds. The entry wound to the head was in the back of his head, and is documented. The wound below JFK’s throat is the exit for the bullet that struck Connelly. That bullet entered his upper back alongside his spine and was a fatal wound itself.

    SPQR (768505)

  50. Right, and the moon is made of green cheese, the check is in the mail, and OJ didn’t do it.

    No need to regurgitate the Warren Commission fairy tale, I know it better than you do.

    ropelight (14ec8b)

  51. The man spent most of his career having an identity crises..
    Perhaps he will find his answer in Heaven. RIP Arlen Specter

    GhostOnTheWind (a0e0c9)

  52. ropelight, no evidently you don’t know it better than I do. Its the JFK Conspiracy theorists who play fantasy ballistics games. The JFK assassination really is straight forward. Oswald fired three rounds, one miss and two hits. The first hit struck JFK in the back and exited under his throat where it traveled to strike Connelly in front of him. That amount of penetration by a long 6.5mm bullet is fully consistent with the characteristics of such long fully-jacketed bullets. The second hit struck JFK in the back of the head, exited in the front of the head.

    That’s all.

    SPQR (768505)

  53. Save it for sleepy over on the other thread, you’re doing a good job there.

    ropelight (14ec8b)

  54. SPQR, Dream on! Patterico, stop acting like a DA for 5 seconds and grow a brain! 399 was deformed SLIGHTLY! It lost less of its overall mass than the weight of fragments in Connaly’s wrist, without exact detaisl something like 44 mgs lost, 130 mgs in Connolly’s wrist. Guess that bullet was “magic” in more ways than being able to change directions and cause multiple extensive wounds THROUGH THE TOUGHEST AND HARDEST PORTIONS OF HUMAN ANATOMY without any sign that it hit ANYTHING OTHER THAN COTTON WADDING!

    Gawd, you Warren Commission worshipers are dull tools!

    Mr DA Patterico, you ever shoot a pumpkin? Even that will cause huge distortion to a bullet! I know, I’ve shot a few dozen in my day and every time I was amazed at the damage to the bullet from hitting such a soft target.

    earl t (1494e5)

  55. The Soviet dezinformatya scheme, that went from their New Times to Corriera de Siera to Garrison to Stone, really did poison the well.

    narciso (ee31f1)

  56. Military bullets, back then, were made not to deform. Hague or something.

    And my .22s, plain lead, are often found whole inside a Yellow Pages.

    Ballistic labs retrieve bullets that have been “deformed” only by the rifling all the time.

    nk (875f57)

  57. If there was deformation at the base and not the nose, it is an indication that it hit a liquid medium, and turned itself around hitting hard media with its rear end.

    Rifle bullets follow the principle of the airplane and the submarine — thinner end in the air, thicker end on entry into flesh and blood. Some people call it “tumbling”.

    nk (875f57)

  58. earl t, it was a fully-jacketed round. And it was a long 6.5mm, a design legendary in the shooting biz for its penetration. Further, if you look at all of the photos of the bullet, not just the single angle the fraudulent JFK conspiracy books use, the bullet is actually fairly well deformed. And any weight loss at all in a FMJ bullet indicates its had a long journey.

    Pumpkins have nothing to do with the behavior of FMJ bullets, earl t. You’ve shot a few dozen pumpkins? I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

    There is nothing extraordinary about the path of the bullet that struck JFK and then struck Connelly. The condition of the bullet is not a mystery – what’s a mystery is why people fall for the BS that JFK conspiracy writers keep putting out. Here’s an example of a dishonest JFK nut webpage. It has a photograph of the bullet from the base, which shows that it is very deformed but fraudulently labels that photograph as a “fragment” of CE 399, which it is not. Its a base view photograph. The website calls the bullet “near perfect condition”, which is frankly a brazen lie.

    SPQR (768505)

  59. But you would need a lot of things to slow down a 6.5mm enough, at that range, to make it tumble.

    Hmm, I’m told there were lots of things, even a knot in a tie.

    Ain’t ballistics a mythbuster?

    nk (875f57)

  60. SPQR, we crossposted on 58 and 59.

    nk (875f57)

  61. nk, look at the page I linked up there. See how the conspiracy nut calls base and nose photos “fragments”. There were no “fragments” of CE 399 collected. Those are all photos of the single bullet but that webpage fraudulently calls the base photograph – which fully debunks the “near perfect” lie – a photograph of a “fragment”.

    SPQR (768505)

  62. I saw it, SPQR. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, that bullet could have done all that damage.

    And I don’t know why I bother … that bullet’s jacket is closer in hardness to the Liberty Bell than to the copper around the edges of your roof. And the lead core is mostly lead but likely the hardest lead around with zinc, tin or iron as impurities.

    nk (875f57)

  63. Its these young punks, nk, raised on poodle-shooting 5.56mm bullets that fragment on the cannelure if you look at them funny. They don’t know what a real battle rifle firing a real high power calibre can do.

    SPQR (768505)

  64. More to SPQR’s point,

    The bullet started to tumble upon impact. The base, mislabelled “fragment”, started hitting hard things. The base lost a bit of stuff that from a certain camera angle could make it look like a fragment.

    nk (875f57)

  65. Well, if we are going to totally hijack the thread. Poem with naughty words. http://winningwriters.com/contests/wergle/2005/we05_farrell.php

    nk (875f57)

  66. I find that most of my cohort who lived through that time disbelieved the Warren Report. I see that about 75% of Americans still do. If you had lived through the Johnson presidency, you’d have reason to doubt it, too. Nothing they said was true.

    But whatever, I will not miss Arlen Specter.

    Kevin M (bf8ad7)

  67. I recommend James Elroy, Kevin.

    In addition to the conspiracy, you have the kind of sado-maso-homo-porno people were going to jail for, back then. If you’re gonna go nuts Jets, go nuts Jets all the way.

    nk (875f57)

  68. Dumb and dumber, nk and SPQR, what a ridiculous pant-load!

    nk, are those whole 22s you’re finding in the yellow pages just a bit misshapen, maybe more than a little bit deformed? You see, I’ve got some personal experience here, I was shot with a 22 and when the slug was removed it was more mushroom shaped than streamlined. Bullets deform on impact with flesh and bone and more so on impact with telephone books, and that’s a stone fact and anyone who knows the working end of a rifle from the butt of a joke knows it.

    In addition, I happened to own a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano in November ’63, bought it for $12.95 at the local discount store, bullets were 10 cents each. I couldn’t afford a real deer gun in those days so I opted for a war surplus Italian army rifle, and so did most of my hunting pals. I know the gun well.

    The 6.5mm is a penetrater, I’ve shot it at trees and telephone poles over 18 inches in diameter and it went clean through and through, but I’ve never seen one that didn’t come out seriously deformed and I’ve never seen one that changed direction in mid flight.

    Both of you can worship at the alter of disinformation, you and swear allegiance to fabrications, and you can pretend that fairy tales are true, but you can’t convince anyone who knows the basic facts that your silly delusions represent anything but a convenient fiction designed to conceal the crime of the century.

    JFK was murdered and so was RFK and those two crimes were committed by the same people, one to put Lyndon Johnson in the Oval Office and the other to keep his brother out of it, and no amount of obfuscation can prevent the truth from eventually coming out, although you can and do try.

    ropelight (14ec8b)

  69. ropelight, the deformation of a .22 is meaningless. Those are unjacketed lead bullets.

    And the fabrication I made reference to is found right at that link above, where the photos of the bullet are fraudulently described. As is typical of all the JFK conspiracy sources.

    By the way, the bullet that passes through JFK and Connelly does not “change direction” in midflight.

    SPQR (768505)

  70. By the way, LBJ did not need to have JFK murdered to become President. JFK was terminally ill already and would not have survived a second term.

    SPQR (768505)

  71. TO NK:

    the 6.5×51/52mm and the 6.5×55 swede are NOT the same; the 6.5 swede is a bigger fatter longer case based on the 7×57 mauser.

    the 6.5 carcano has a 160 grain bullet at 2100 fps; the 6.5 swede has a 144 gr bullet at 2700 fps!

    ROBERT RUDZKI (131c80)

  72. Rudzki, actually you are mostly correct. The 6.5x55mm case is not based on the 7x57mm, predating it by a year or so. And its early loadings were 160 grain roundnose closer to 2300fps depending on source.

    SPQR (768505)

  73. JFK was terminally ill already and would not have survived a second term.
    Comment by SPQR — 10/14/2012 @ 7:38 pm

    Um, say what? What was he “terminally ill” with? As feets would say, nobody tells me anything, never heard that.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  74. MD, he had Addison’s disease. I didn’t know it was terminal, though

    Chuck Bartowski (ad7249)

  75. Addison’s disease isn’t terminal. I knew he had Addison’s, which is a deficiency of hormones from the adrenal gland, but that is treated with hydrocortisone (usually, +/- other meds) supplements just like hypothyroidism or diabetes (though not needing injections).

    Untreated it can be fatal, but no reason for it to be fatal if taken care of.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  76. MD in Philly

    JFK had addisons and it was discovered decades before he became president but he was told in his first white house physical that he wasnt going to live very long

    EPWJ (8a4ca7)

  77. MD

    years of cortisone usage degrades muscle tissue – especially with the crude cortisone made in the manufacturing processes in the 40 and 50’s.

    EPWJ (8a4ca7)

  78. MD, I’ll need to look for the reference I saw that concluded that JFK’s Addison’s was going to kill him within a few short years. There were also some revelations in recent years that JFK was getting large doses of amphetamines from a later-defrocked doctor whose name escapes me.

    SPQR (768505)

  79. Yes, SPQR, unjacketed lead bullets deform on violent contact with even soft materials, and so do lead bullets encapsulated within thin copper jackets. But, if you knew anything about guns you’d already know that.

    As for the magic bullet changing direction, the Warren Commission would have us believe it was fired from about 70 feet above and to the right of JFK and hit him at a downward angle slightly to the right of his spinal column and nearly five and a half inches below the line where his neck and shoulders join. Then it reversed course and passed through his body at an upward angle and exited below his Adam’s apple.

    That’s a rather significant change in direction.

    As for LBJ’s chances for becoming President, what do you imagine his chances would have been if JFK dropped him from the ticket in his run for a second term? Which is exactly what JFK told his secretary he intended to do and which JFK had already sounded out at least two possible replacements?

    Under those circumstances it would have been impossible for LBJ to replace JFK especially since Congress was investigating LBJ’s ties to Bobby Baker’s corrupt double dealing at the very moment the assassins’ convenient bullets elevated LBJ to the Presidency.

    ropelight (14ec8b)

  80. getting large doses of amphetamines from a later-defrocked doctor whose name escapes me.
    Comment by SPQR — 10/14/2012 @ 8:08 pm

    Yeah, I’ve taken that to be fact, along with narcotics for back pain and maybe barbiturates to cycle his awake/sleep cycle with “uppers and downers”. I don’t remember the docs name either, but I think he was from NYC and nicknamed “Dr. Feelgood”.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  81. I bet he’s already switched caskets…

    FR in SC (08b65d)

  82. Aaron Rodgers has 6 TD passes tonight.

    JD (43ce10)

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    how can make money,money from internet,money with internet,how can earn money,money from the internet,money and internet,money by internet,how to own a business,on line money,internet marketing website,website internet marketing,how earn money online,earn (3f1574)

  84. Comment by JD — 10/14/2012 @ 8:28 pm

    The state of Wisconsin has a balanced attack. Yesterday the Badgers had over 400 yds rushing and I think 4 rushing TD’s (3 by Ball who looked like himself again).

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  85. Arron Rodgers is the most accurate passer I’ve ever seen and I go back to the Colt’s John Unitas in the very early 60’s. I’m a huge fan of the game.

    Next, SPQR and nk, I’m just asking, is it beginning to cross your minds the possibility exists you may not know nearly as much as you had assumed about the Kennedy assassinations?

    I’m not trying to rub it in, but I am asking if you’re willing to look beyond the Warren Report’s idiot conclusions. Believe me, there is life outside the confines of government cover-ups.

    The facts really are out there, be brave, all it takes is the courage to look at the evidence with an open mind and and to draw the logical but inescapable conclusions: A + B = C. It’s not rocket science.

    ropelight (14ec8b)

  86. As for the magic bullet changing direction, the Warren Commission would have us believe it was fired from about 70 feet above and to the right of JFK and hit him at a downward angle slightly to the right of his spinal column and nearly five and a half inches below the line where his neck and shoulders join. Then it reversed course and passed through his body at an upward angle and exited below his Adam’s apple.

    That would indicate a change of direction ONLY if JFK were seated at the time of impact. But he wasn’t, he was leaning forward. Look at the relevant frames of the Zapruder film.

    NOVA did a program on this back around 1991. Computerized analysis of the Zapruder film, frame by frame. The path of the bullet was straight.

    Chuck Bartowski (ad7249)

  87. I think, in spite of the Warren Commission Report, that Oswald fired all three shots. There may have been others involved, but only one shooter.

    htom (412a17)

  88. And if you’ve ever been to the Sixth Floor Museum you know how close the shot actually was.
    Comment by Patterico — 10/14/2012 @ 1:22 pm

    — Hear, hear! I’ve been to the Sixth Floor Museum, and in my layman’s opinion Oswald was at the PERFECT angle, and DID have enough time to work that “ancient, unreliable, notoriously innaccurate, blah blah blah” bolt-action rifle.

    Icy (2ed015)

  89. Cancer is a terrible thing, and I wish no one got it.
    [pause]
    Sorry, that’s all I got.
    [claps hands, shows palms, walks out]

    M. Scott Eiland (449af8)

  90. @84, Chuck, since the magic bullet that supposedly hit JFK in the back and exited from just below his Adam’s apple struck the President while the Zapruder film shows the limo was out of sight behind the Freeway sign, there’s absolutely no reason to believe JFK was leaning forward, except of course to manufacture ways to force the evidence to fit the fable.

    In fact, when the limo comes back into view from behind the sign, JFK is leaning back in his seat sitting straight up with his hands raised to his throat. Exactly the opposite of what you would expect if he’d been hit from behind.

    Take another look at the film, and don’t swallow tall tales on TV about magic bullets and JFK’s improbable posture. He was waving to the crowd, not tying his shoes.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  91. Years ago (early 90s?) I walked by him as he prepared for an interview on the sidewalk in front of the Federal Courthouse in Philadelphia.

    Santorum and Bush loyally endorsed Specter, and thus lost much of their base in the Keystone State. This made Specter’s opportunistic and devastatingly timed party swich all the more infuriating. But, as often happens, a traitor is not fully trusted by his new associates. And the filibuster-proof majority he engineered was too inept to make a difference.

    Be that as it may, there were times I voted for him as the best available alternative. And he was a Philadelphian. May he rest in peace.

    Amphipolis (d3e04f)

  92. ropelight, well given that I’ve been shooting rifles competitively since you will still involuntarily filling your diapers, as well hunting/teaching HE and pulling bullets of all sorts from animal carcases, I do know guns. The bullet is deformed enough to have made that path.

    In the film, JFK raises his hands as an autonomic reflex to the bullet that just hit him and Connelly, causing spinal damage.

    SPQR (768505)

  93. Re: JFK’s throat wound. I read in Rush to Judgement that at the press conference at Parkland after Kennedy died the doctors who worked on him were unequivocal that the bullet hole was an entry wound and that all the wire services, newpapers etc. had the quote the following day. Is that true?

    Lane also said that the FBI confiscated the tape of the press conference.

    Gerald A (f26857)

  94. What I want to know is, after Oswald defected to the Soviet Union, why did we let him back into the country?

    luagha (0f0489)

  95. @90, SPQR, if that were the case, JFK’s x-rays would show decisive damage to his spinal column.

    Could it be that gosh darn ol’ magic bullet again circulating counter clockwise around his spine only exit a from hole the Parkland doctors identified as an entry wound?

    As for your claim to hoary age, I’ve been around since FDR’s Administration. My grandfather dressed me up in his Doughboy uniform and taught me the Manuel of Arms when I was almost 10. He gave me a Red Rider BB gun and a jack knife for my birthday.

    At 11 a Navy UDT officer taught me to shoot accurately, he preached gun safety and sight alignment, and I learned from him when to breathe, how to control my emotions, and to squeeze the trigger slowly. That same year I got a pellet gun and a year later my first 22, single shot, bolt action. I wish I still had it.

    Over the years I’ve owned rifles, shotguns, and handguns and I’ve shot trap and skeet, hunted doves, quail, squirrels, rabbits, ducks and geese, deer, elk, bear and a few other critters. Once I even shot a wasp out of the air with a BB pistol (I admit it was a lucky shot, but I was aiming at that particular wasp) and I can hit a basketball with a 4″ barrel .357 revolver from a surprisingly long way off.

    You may know something about guns but so do I pal, so do I, and I’m a pretty damn good shot, not the best, I’ve seen better, but not all that many.

    @91, GA, yes it’s true.

    @92, luagha, the US not only expedited Oswald’s request they even gave him the money to finance his return trip along with his Russian wife and child. BTW, it was unheard of in those bitter cold war days for Russian sweethearts to get permission to leave the USSR. Her departure was strangely approved in only a few days, matching the time it took for the US to hang out the welcome mat for LHO.

    As for why he was welcomed back, it was because he was on assignment for CIA when he defected.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  96. This website discusses the press conference and the Warren Commission conclusions about the throat wound at some length.

    Following the press conference, the news media widely quoted Perry as having identified the throat wound as one of entrance. A UPI report published in The New York World Telegram & Sun on the afternoon of the assassination said, “There was an entrance wound below his Adam’s apple. There was another wound in the back of his head.” (NYWT&S, November 22, 1963). Tom Wicker of The New York Times: “Mr. Kennedy was hit by a bullet in the throat, just below the Adam’s apple, they said. This wound had the appearance of a bullet’s entry.” (New York Times, November 23, 1963) Other newspapers and the television networks concurred. (See, e.g., Dallas Times Herald, November 24, 1963; NBC, Seventy Hours and Thirty Minutes, Random House. New York: 1966, p. 11; CBS News, The Assassination of President Kennedy as Broadcast over the CBS Television Network, unpublished transcript of coverage on November 22, 1963, pp. 51, 97).

    and

    Arlen Specter, the Warren Commission staff lawyer who developed the medical evidence in the assassination, made a feeble and somewhat transparent attempt to obtain for that investigation a recording or transcript of the statements made by Dr. Perry on November 22, 1963. Although Specter told the Commission that, “[W]e have been trying diligently to get the tape records of the television interview, and we were unsuccessful,” (3H 378) there is no evidence that the Commission considered using its subpoena power at any time. Instead of inquiring on its own, the panel asked the Secret Service to undertake a search. The performance of the Secret Service was equally lackluster, for a reason I shall presently discuss. On March 25, 1964, Secret Service Director James J. Rowley wrote the Commission that no videotape recording or transcript could be found at the television networks or the Dallas stations. (CD 678)

    Gerald A (f26857)

  97. Another interesting thing Lane pointed out in Rush to Judgement was that, in the early phase of the investigation, the FBI seemed to be going on the belief that some shots were fired at JFK from in front. They theorized that the first shot was fired from the TBD while JFK’s car was still approaching the building, and that subsequent shots were fired from behind after it turned the corner. Lane referenced an article about the investigation in Life Magazine. This was before the Zapruder film had surfaced IIRC. I no longer have a copy of the book so I’m saying this from memory.

    Gerald A (f26857)

  98. GA, all I know about a possible first shot from the TBD while JFK’s limo was still on Houston and before it turned left onto Elm is that in Oliver Stone’s movie JFK Garrison’s chief investigator makes a point of explaining that such a straight frontal shot would have offered the assassin a much better opportunity for a clean kill than any of the Elm Street going-away shots taken from the 6th floor window.

    The only reason for not taking the easy front shot is that although it would have been optimum for a single shooter, the Dealey Plaza location was better suited for the coordinated triangulation fire so prized by professional rifle assassins. Three shooters all firing together at a single target is the assassins unholy grail, the target has little if any chance of survival.

    If you attempt to kill a king the consequences of failure can be severe. And, if such a coup d’etat is successful, like the man said, None dare call it treason.

    FWIW, I don’t think a shot was fired at JFK before his limo completed the turn onto Elm, and I also think the first projectile hit him in the lower throat and that it came from JFK’s right front.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  99. ropelight, a shot from right front striking the throat would have created an exit wound that does not appear on JFK’s back. Didn’t happen.

    SPQR (768505)

  100. SPQR, thanks for the link. I’ll have a look and get back to you.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  101. You assume a shot would have passed through and through. Consider the possibility of a low energy projectile designed to penetrate only an inch or two: small entry wound and no exit wound.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  102. ropelight, your assumption then creates three guns? Because then the back wound has no exit wound either. No bullet is found in JFK’s body. And you can’t create a bullet that stops in such a small distance reliably and also has any real effectiveness. All for what? To create a weird meaningless storyline?

    Occam is going to beat you soundly.

    SPQR (768505)

  103. Comment by nk — 10/14/2012 @ 1:41 pm

    Specter does not stick in my mind from the Bork hearings. I remember Kennedy and some guy from Ohio,

    That would be Howard Metzenbaum. Born 1917, he had a small career in politics from 1943 to 1951. He later made a lot of money, mostly in real estate and founded Avis – while continuing in a more background role in politics (like campaign manager)

    He sold all or most his businesses except for a newspaper chain and then went back into politics.

    He and former astronaut John Glenn both wanted to get elected to the United States Senate. In 1970 he won the Democratic primary against John Glenn, but lost the general election to Robert Taft Jr. by a small margin. Then, in 1974, when President Ford appointed Ohio Senator William Saxbe Attorney general, Democratic Governor Jack Gilligan appointed to fill out the unexpired term. But John Glenn won the primary for the full 6-year term. Finally, in 1976., Methzenbaum, now no longer having to compete with John Glenn, won the Democratic primary and he also won the general election, riding perhaps on Jimmy Carter’s coattails.

    Metzenbaum and Glenn continued to have strained relations until about 1983, according to Wikipedia.

    Metzenbaum had a law degree, and had practiced law in the 1940s, for clients such as the Communications Workers of America and the International Association of Machinists. So that got him on the Judiciary Committee.

    Metzenbaum retired in 1994. He died in March, 2008.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  104. braying from their seats. I was already an attorney, doing criminal trial, and thinking that those guys were not fit to carry Bork’s briefcase. Bork rubbed people the wrong way. He was a “shinkicker”. Prosecutors opposed him.

    I think Biden was also there on that committee.

    He was the Chairman in fact. Later on he became the senior Democrat and Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124294934268945409.html

    May 22, 2009.How Joe Biden Wrecked the Judicial Confirmation Process

    The vice president can’t complain if Republicans object to Obama’s Supreme Court nominee.

    …..Before Judge Bork’s nomination, Mr. Biden had said he would support him. And why not? He was widely considered a dazzling legal mind and had even received (during his confirmation to the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals) a rating of “exceptionally well-qualified” from the liberal-leaning American Bar Association. “Say the administration sends up Bork,” Mr. Biden told the Philadelphia Inquirer in November 1986, “and, after our investigations, he looks a lot like Scalia. I’d have to vote for him, and if the [special-interest] groups tear me apart, that’s the medicine I’ll have to take.”

    But by the time of the actual nomination, Democrats were promising to play “hardball” with President Ronald Reagan’s nominees and Mr. Biden was running for president. Mr. Biden’s Democratic colleagues lined up against the nominee. They were led by Sen. Edward Kennedy, who demonized him with a monologue on “Robert Bork’s America,” which he promised would be “a land in which women would be forced into back alley abortions.”

    Liberal groups joined the chorus for Mr. Biden to recant his earlier support, which he did, helping to defeat Mr. Bork’s nomination…..

    ……Just one year after the conservative Mr. Scalia’s unanimous confirmation the winds had changed dramatically. The Senate had hitherto proceeded on the principle that it owed the president deference on his judicial selections. No longer.

    “The framers clearly intended the Senate to serve as a check on the president and guarantee the independence of the judiciary,” Mr. Biden said in August 1987 in defense of his newfound opposition to Judge Bork. “The Senate has an undisputed right to consider judicial philosophy.” With that marker placed, the ultimate winner of the seat vacated by Justice Lewis Franklin Powell Jr. was a nominee nearly devoid of political philosophy — Anthony Kennedy….

    Since 1969, the Senate had tended to do “ethics” investigations. That’s when Sen Proxmire started this thing about “conflict of interest”

    It was a cover.

    Bork was apparently the first where a Supreme Court nomination was openly opposed by many Senators over judicial philosophy. Of course Bork also had this where he was willing to take people on. They also found out what movies he rented.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  105. I’m not trying to beat you SPQR, I’m trying to wise you up.

    Yes, three guns as in tri-angulation.

    One of the Bethesda autopsy doctors probed the entry wound in JFK’s back with his little finger and reported it was less than 2″ deep. That bullet may have fallen out as JFK was being moved from the limo to the hospital gurney and was later found and became the so-called Pristine bullet.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  106. ropelight, there is no way that a 6.5mm FMJ would only travel 2 inches.

    This is the problem with JFK conspiracy theories, you can’t create a logical scenario that fits the facts. That’s why so many JFK conspiracy theorists invent new “facts”.

    And the “pristine bullet”, isn’t pristine. Its well deformed as I’ve shown above.

    SPQR (768505)

  107. Comment by Dana — 10/14/2012 @ 3:57 pm

    He died because it was his time to die – he was an old man with serious health issues.

    He held out till now. Anyway, I had a question:

    When he wrote his book, did he know he was going to die soon?

    And whether one agreed with his politics or not, it’s good to bear in mind that he was one woman’s husband for 59 years and the father of two sons who loved him, as well as having served our country in the Air Force.

    And he was right about the single bullet theory too.

    What the Warren Commission got wrong was they said there were only two bullets fired, and if there was a third, it came between the two that hit. I mean what they got wrong on that point.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  108. OK Pollyanna, knock it off with the name calling or you’ll get it right back and then see how you like it.

    So, according to you, “… there is no way that a 6.5mm FMJ would only travel 2 inches.”

    Well, now, how about if you pull the bullet from the case, remove a little more than half the powder and re-seat the bullet. How far might it penetrate then?

    ropelight (b4851d)

  109. Comment by SPQR — 10/15/2012 @ 1:03 pm

    This is the problem with JFK conspiracy theories, you can’t create a logical scenario that fits the facts.

    I have one. But it doesn’t involve anyone other than Oswald firing any shots. I don’t know if it’s true, but it’s the only one possible..

    FROM MY PROTOBLOG:

    (A few typos corrected, a bit added in brackets for clarification, and some paragraphs broken up a bit more]

    Date: 12-08-94 (22:57)
    Number: 675 of 951
    To: ALL Refer#: NONE
    From: SAMMY FINKELMAN Read: HAS REPLIES

    Subj: THE OVERLOOKED SUSPECT
    Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE

    Conf: SAMMY ZONE (9) Read Type: GENERAL (+)

    If there is a conspiracy it belongs somewhere else than where people were looking: Who picked the motorcade route.

    We know John Connally even lied to get it. The event was originally supposed to be at night. The reasons for wanting the Trade Mart sound specious. There was a report in the Dallas News that Connally had flown back to Washington to try to get the trip cancelled – but was it true, or was it planted as a alibi?

    The question is what was the real reason for doing all that.

    What I do think might be true is that the Chairman of the Texas Democratic Party, Eugene Locke, might have arranged it. This man was
    close to Connally, a college roommate of his. He was in a position not only to influence Connally about the motorcade route, but also to get
    him never to mention what had happened (using any of maybe half a dozen possible reasons)

    Of course you never heard of this fellow. It wouldn’t be a very successful coverup if you had.

    Part of the coverup is to point the finger in all sorts of other directions and imply that more than one person and at any rate somebody NOT Oswald shot Kennedy.

    Now there are many facts that could be ascertained that would either increase the probability of this theory being true or totally demolish it.

    For instance what did Eugene Locke do in his jobs? Was he dishonest for instance?

    How was he nominated? Were other investigations, like the Billy Sol Estes investigation leading to him or people he knew? Why was this whole thing
    not gone into? Why did Connally not run in 1968? When did David Edwards stop working for him? How many votes from Texas did McGovern get in the
    1972 Democratic convention? When did Bill Clinton become McGovern’s campaign manager in that state? (assuming that he became aware of this and blackmailed him or others)

    There are things I’d need to check out. I tried locating a story about Texas in the 1972 New York Times index and I couldn’t find one, so I’d have to look up the newspaper for the week of the convention or try to find a book about the campaign.

    Above all, of course did Locke know of George De Mohrenschildt? All I know about de Morenschildt is that in April, 1963 he left Dallas and spent
    most of his time in Haiti. At that time organized crime was trying to resurrect what they had in Cuba in Haiti (it eventually succeeded, in
    the Bahamas)

    Did de Mohrenschildt speak to anyone? Did he ever visit Texas or anywhere else? What do we know of his movements? What do we know of his character and previous associations?

    He was a petroleum engineer and Locke was in the oil business – were they acquainted?

    The question becomes of course, did he [Locke – SF 2012] have any knowledge of George de Mohrenschildt. Because De Mohrenschildt was the only person besides Marina Oswald, his wife, who knew Oswald had fired a rifle at Walker –
    having guessed that correctly in such a way so that Oswald’s reaction told him it was true and [he] knew that if somebody went up to Oswald and
    said he was from the “Red Cross” which is what he called the KGB and the KGB called itself in some contexts, and outlined some sort of a plan to him with a reward, he might very well do what somebody told him to do.

    Of course a lot of things in this case, might have gone wrong. There would be a high chance nothing would happen, and a chance he might
    miss. Hardly worth going to a lot of effort for something with such a low probability of success.

    Perhaps indeed there was an earlier, better thought out plan, where the assassination would be blamed on John Birchers, but the potential
    assassin(s) backed off, and then Locke (assuming it was him) had to find another assassin and another plan in a short time and found out about
    Oswald.

    And if this was the plan, John Connally, Locke’s link to Johnson, nearly got killed, and would have been had he stayed still in the same position
    and not turned his head when he heard the first shot. Connally was not originally supposed to be in that car.

    Locke perhaps, or his connections, might have had enough influence to misdirect or mislead the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission
    reported wrongly that the motorcade route was chosen by the Secret Service. See footnote 1 on page 25 of William Manchester’s The Death of
    a President.

    After Johnson became President, Locke himself became Ambassador to Pakistan in 1965. This brings up the BCCI connection. BCCI had not yet
    been formed, but maybe people associated with it were close to President Khan. Locke got control of a lot of money to be funneled to Pakistan to prevent it from siding politically with China

    Later, Locke became deputy Ambassador to South Vietnam. You have heard about how all the estimates for the Tet Offensive were wrong or that
    the truth never made its way to Washington? Locke was there in the chain of transmission.

    Later in 1968 Locke ran for Governor of Texas and lost – did he persuade Connally to step down and give him a chance?

    And then there’s the interesting Clinton connection. For someone who had worked for Locke, back in 1962 (and later) was David Edwards who met
    Clinton at Oxford in 1968.

    Then an interesting question becomes, did Bill Clinton use this information (if there was this information) in the 1972 campaign?

    How did the Texas delegation vote in the 1972 Democratic convention?

    That’s one thing I want to look up. For if it voted for McGovern, or helped his campaign in other ways like the delegate seating question
    involving California and Illinois, and if Bill Clinton was already at that stage, in charge of the McGovern campaign in Texas, he might have
    achieved that by blackmail.

    The fact of the matter is, John Connally exerted a lot of pressure, and since he cannot have been the conspirator, assuming there was one, since he
    got shot, it must be someone close to him who could also persuade him not to talk much later by spinning another story. That point[s] to his old college roommate and the Chairman of the [Executive Committee of the] Democratic Party in Texas, a Dallas lawyer named Eugene Locke, who, after Johnson became President, was named Ambassador to Pakistan in 1965, deputy Ambassador to South Vietnam in March 1967 and returned home to run for Governor of Texas in 1968 but lost (Connally decided not to run for re-election)

    While in government he spread around the notion that he was close to LBJ so much so that he was nicknamed Lyndon Jr. [He was also instrumental in stealing Texas for Kennedy in 1960]

    I don’t think either Castro or the Soviet Union did it. A key point is that there was no follow-up in any way. Now we have the tremendous
    attempts to disassociate from Oswald and we have all kinds of theories on that. Maybe the best theory would be that indeed Oswald never was a
    spy, but the attempt to disassociate was made in such a way so that if people wanted to be suspicious, they could be. It was actually to point the finger in the direction of the KGB. And the reason was that American organized crime had agents inside the KGB. And they also got the KGB involved in trying to blame the CIA.

    It is important to note that LBJ himself was not and could not have been part of such a conspiracy. The conspirators, if any, would not have dared to take him into their confidence.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  110. Wow, we have one commenter jumping on a “magic bullet” theory then turning around and producing a triple assassin, “pristine bullet” theory.

    How did everybody like that documentary Gasland or Al Gore’s Inconvenient Truth?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  111. PS: note that I referred to the “so-called Pristine bullet. Slow down and you’re more likely to grasp the particulars.

    And, I did mention that I know more about the WC conclusions than you do, and more about guns too, the evidence proves it.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  112. And Connally would have had no idea what the real reason was for changing the parade route.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  113. 107. Well, now, how about if you pull the bullet from the case, remove a little more than half the powder and re-seat the bullet. How far might it penetrate then?

    Comment by ropelight — 10/15/2012 @ 1:18 pm

    You mean if it didn’t get stuck in the barrel? You mean if it didn’t just blow up as light loads below the minimum you’ll find in reloading books are famous for doing?

    I’ve stayed out of this so far but, Dude, you do not know what you’re talking about.

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  114. “Case Closed” is very good, but it doesn’t go into how Oswald got that job at that location.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  115. I took a tour of the secret studio where NASA filmed the fake moon landing this summer.

    Next summer I’m going on a Big Foot spotting trek.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  116. Steve57, welcome to the debate. You never heard of a light load?

    How about a 9mm kurtz? Did you ever go to a shooting gallery and see the mini-22s which are about half the size of 22 shorts?

    Did you ever reload shotgun shells, measure out powder, make your own bullets, re-size used cases, install new primers?

    It’s you who are long on opinions and short on experience. I’m not trying to pick fights, but lets keep our eyes open, we might learn something useful.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  117. For clarification, David Edwards worked for Eugene Locke but I don’t know the dates. I also don’t know if Eugene Locke was acquainted with George de Mohrenschildt, but I can see he easily could have been.

    Understand, this would have been a substitute plan.

    Also, they would have had all the bases covered. For instance, if Oswald shot and missed (and got away) JFK was to think it was John Birchers. they really got JFK thinking about this. When they knew it was too late to cancel they (if this is the case) enlisted Arkansas Sen J William Fulbright) to give JFK a big warning about now going to Dallas.

    Also, if Oswald was arrested, they had the bases covered. Oswald was to think the Soviet Union had wanted him to do so. To make sure he didn’t talk too much, they had a lawyer lined up for him: a former New York State Assemblyman by the name of Mark Lane.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  118. *about NOT not going to Dallas. It’s all in the book “The Death of a President”

    (not, of course, about anybody who might have asked Fulbright to give this lecture to Kennedy.

    Kennedy’s mind was very much on the idea of someone with a rifle firing at him.

    With all this groundwork laid, when it came true, JFK would surely think it was a John Bircher and never suspect them.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  119. 115.

    Steve57, welcome to the debate. You never heard of a light load?

    How about a 9mm kurtz? Did you ever go to a shooting gallery and see the mini-22s which are about half the size of 22 shorts?

    Did you ever reload shotgun shells, measure out powder, make your own bullets, re-size used cases, install new primers?

    It’s you who are long on opinions and short on experience. I’m not trying to pick fights, but lets keep our eyes open, we might learn something useful.

    Comment by ropelight — 10/15/2012 @ 1:37 pm

    ropelight, you are confused.

    Light loads have no place in large cases. There is a reason why light loads for .22s are put into mini cases like CB caps and not long rifle cases.

    Because putting a small charge in a large case leads to detonation. There is no problem putting a small charge in a small case.

    You can not remotely compare the fact you can safely use a lighter load in a 9mm short case in a handgun chambered for it to the danger of putting the same load in a 9mm Parabellum case.

    You want to shoot light loads in your .44 Mag? Great. Use the shorter .44 Special cases. You’d have to be insane to put what would be a light special load in the magnum case.

    If you dump over half the charge out of a large case, you are asking for trouble.

    And yes, I reload. For years. With no problems because I know better than to do what you suggested in your earlier post.

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  120. Sammy, Ruth Paine got Oswald the job at TSBD after George DeMohrenschildt introduced Lee and Marina to her. Ruth was teaching Russian language classes at the time and claimed she wanted the opportunity to speak colloquial Russian with a native speaker. Ruth took Marina and the child into her home in Fort Worth. Marina was living there when she gave birth to her second child.

    Incidentally, George DeMohrenschildt, uncle George to Jackie Kennedy, had dated Jackie’s mother before he married Abraham Zapruder’s business partner. Small world, ech?

    ropelight (b4851d)

  121. The only reason for not taking the easy front shot is that although it would have been optimum for a single shooter, the Dealey Plaza location was better suited for the coordinated triangulation fire so prized by professional rifle assassins. Three shooters all firing together at a single target is the assassins unholy grail, the target has little if any chance of survival.

    Comment by ropelight — 10/15/2012 @ 12:35 pm

    Obviously something caused the FBI to initially believe the first shot was fired from in front. What was it? Other than the throat wound being an entry wound I can’t think of anything. The Zapruder film forced the throat wound to be an exit wound, under the single shooter theory. Then they abandoned the idea he was shot from in front, and shazzam, you have the “magic bullet” explanation. Lane’s point was to demonstrate that they worked backwards from the single gunman explanation and made the “facts” fit that.

    Gerald A (f26857)

  122. ropelight, you keep laying out “scenarios” that don’t explain the facts, and instead contradict the actual facts. So you invent new guns, new nonexistant bullets that penetrate 2 inches but show large deformation …

    Its all nonsense.

    And a “9mm Kurtz” isn’t a light load. Its a fairly well known caliber. Its called “.380 ACP” in the US, ropelight. And it penetrates more than 2 inches. And its not 6.5mm in diameter and with a bullet of 160 grains either.

    sheesh.

    SPQR (768505)

  123. Gerald A., if the throat wound is an entry wound and the back wound is an exit wound, then the shooter was in the dash of the limousine. The angles don’t work.

    SPQR (768505)

  124. You never heard of a light load?

    How about a 9mm kurtz? Did you ever go to a shooting gallery and see the mini-22s which are about half the size of 22 shorts?

    …It’s you who are long on opinions and short on experience. I’m not trying to pick fights, but lets keep our eyes open, we might learn something useful.

    Comment by ropelight — 10/15/2012 @ 1:37 pm

    Seriously, the examples you cite of using light charges in cases that are designed to use those charges to support the idea you can dump “a little more than half the powder and re-seat the bullet” out of a 6.5mm Carcano case with no worries is a clear sign you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    And I’m not trying to pick a fight; I’m pointing this out because if that notion goes un-debunked and someone does that after reading your comment they can get maimed or killed.

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  125. Steve, it’s done all the time often with and sometimes without filler added. Because the weapon is designed to safely handle overpressure loads there is little danger in under power shots, sometimes you have to experiment a bit to get just the desired effect but it ain’t rocket science.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  126. SPQR,

    Why does the back wound have to be an exit wound? Because they didn’t find a bullet in him?

    Gerald A (f26857)

  127. It would be hard to explain where the bullets went if the throat was an entry wound and the back was an entry wound (absent conspiracy theories).

    Gerald A (f26857)

  128. ropelight, ballisticians call it Secondary Explosive Effect or Secondary Pressure Spike Detonation.

    You can do what you want with your own guns and your own life, but it exists and you are playing russian roulette when you flirt with it.

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  129. SPQR, you don’t like my answers to your questions because the answers don’t conform to your excessively rigid adherence to a lone-gunman-magic-bullet conspiracy theory.

    Some of the same government agencies that told you a video caused a demonstration in Benghazi that got out of hand and resulted in a dead Ambassador are the same government agencies that concocted the Warren Commission Report. Think about it.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  130. ropelight, your “answers” are not consistent, don’t make sense, and require you to invent ever complicated speculations without tangible evidence to support.

    That’s not logical.

    And your attempts to assert more knowledge of ballistics than me? Fail.

    SPQR (2cadae)

  131. Steve, I’ve been doing it with my pre-64 30-30 for over 40 years now. I make 30cal lead balls, seat them into used cases with about two-thirds load and keep two in my pocket when I’m in the field hunting deer.

    If I happen across small game I slip the round out of the chamber and slide in one of my homemades and let fly. Works great, read about it in Field and Stream? back in the late 60s and been doing it ever since without a single problem.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  132. I make 30cal lead balls, seat them into used cases with about two-thirds load and keep two in my pocket when I’m in the field hunting deer.

    And this makes you think you can get away with pulling the long, heavy-for-caliber bullet out of a 6.5mm Carcano case, dumping out a little over half of the powder charge, reseating that heavy 162 grain bullet, then safely fire it, why?

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  133. SPQR, I never said word one about ballistics, never mentioned ballistics, that’s your straw-man. I’m not unfamiliar with the term and I have picked up little bits of information here and there, but I’m no ballistics expert, never claimed to be one either, and I’m not talking now about ballistics, I’m talking about assassination techniques, a topic you don’t know spit about.

    For the record, I said I know more about the Warren Commission conclusions than you do, and I said I know quite a bit about guns, and I said I was a pretty darn good shot, but I didn’t mention ballistics.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  134. Steve, because it’s easy, I’ve done it lots of times.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  135. Just so you know, 0 buck (.32 cal round lead ball) weighs 48 grains. That light 30 cal round ball you’re using with that light charge is not even close to the weight of a standard .30 cal hunting bullet.

    You keep giving me apples to oranges comparisons.

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  136. ropelight, you load a 6.5mm 160 grain bullet so slow as to only penetrate 2 inches and it would not be spun enough to be stable. It would arrive sideways if it arrived at all. And SEE is real, as Steve57 mentioned.

    Your speculation, devoid of any evidentiary basis or basis inreality, is nonsense.

    SPQR (2cadae)

  137. Steve, when empirical facts and your theoretical assumptions conflict, it’s your assumptions that need further examination.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  138. ropelight, if only you applied that to your own speculation ….

    SPQR (2cadae)

  139. SPQR, and yet JFK had a hole in his back that was only about 2″ deep and a slightly deformed bullet* which came to be called the Pristine bullet was found on a gurney at Parkland Hospital.

    I’ve explained how a 6.5mm bullet fired from above and behind JFK’s limo could fit the conditions listed in my first paragraph. If you don’t want to acknowledge it, that’s OK with me, but don’t expect me to hold your hand.

    *I’m aware you claim it was more than slightly deformed.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  140. SPQR, with your permission, of course I include the magic bullet theory in the category of theoretical assumptions.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  141. 136. Steve, when empirical facts and your theoretical assumptions conflict, it’s your assumptions that need further examination.

    Comment by ropelight — 10/15/2012 @ 2:50 pm

    I’ve seen the charts measuring the wild pressure spikes of excessively light loads in rifle and handgun cartridges.

    It’s no theoretical assumption.

    What does your pressure measuring equipment show? Or do your “empirical facts” consist merely of the fact you’ve gotten away with it so far.

    In any case, how does a 2/3 charge behind an extremely light-for-caliber projectile like a lead round ball tell you anything about what you can expect with an even more excessive underload behind a heavy-for-caliber jacketed bullet?

    I’ll answer that for you; it doesn’t.

    So far your responses have been non-responsive. You’ve been comparing apples to oranges throughout, as if apples prove anything about oranges.

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  142. ropelight, you have not explained how a 6.5mm bullet could match your beliefs about the wounds. Your “explanations” are nonsense. And JFK did not have a hole in his back 2 inches deep. You have seen someone claim that the back wound was explored with a finger (?!) to that depth.

    Witnesses you like create facts, witnesses you don’t like don’t, ropelight. And your speculations become facts too.

    SPQR (768505)

  143. Single bullet theory. Borking Bork. God bless.

    Comedy is not pretty, Arlen. RIP, Senator.

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  144. Steve, it works for me. That’s all I can tell you. Give it a try, see for yourself.

    And, BTW, I do know a little bit about apples and oranges too. As a kid, I grew apples in my parents side yard and as an young adult I lived for a time in the middle of a California orange grove. Now, I live in Florida and have oranges in the back yard, and not once did I ever know how the fruit tasted unless I picked one and took a bite for myself.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  145. Here’s a link to the kind of pressure spike I was referring to.

    http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5024/5794864607_707651943e_z.jpg

    Does that look like a theoretical assumption, ropelight?

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  146. I should add the maximum allowable pressure per the SAAMI spec for the .223 is 55k psi. Yes, the rifles are proofed at overpressure. But the proof loads are 75k psi. The pressure spike in that chart is beyond the proof load.

    This is safe?

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  147. Au contraire, SPQR, I have a clear recollection of reading about it for the 3rd or 4th time fairly recently, that is within the last 2 years or so. It’s not something one is likely to forget, and my mind is still as sharp as my eyesight, which is better than 20/20.

    It may take me some time to find it but I’ll take up the task on the condition that when I find it you’ll apologize for my time and inconvenience and say a few kind words about my acute memory and my outstanding scholarship.

    It occurs to me that I may have taken notes, I do that, in which case I might find it a little sooner.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  148. Steve, I want to take some time and consider your link carefully, but right now my supper is near, I’m looking forward to a glass of sour mash bourbon, Charles Krauthammer is on FOX NEWS, and Monday Night Football is in the offing.

    I’ll be back.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  149. ropelight, when you get back I won’t be here.

    As I said, I’m not trying to pick a fight. I have no doubt your light load works well in your .30-30. Nor am I saying that any load under the recommended minimum is therefore unsafe.

    I am saying that you can’t just dump out over half the powder charge and then use all the same components intended for use behind the full charge and assume it’s safe.

    Bad things can and do happen. Not all the time. Maybe not even very often.

    But they only need to happen once to ruin your day. Sometimes a lot more.

    Which is why I weighed in when I did. Prior to that, I was just mildly interested in this thread and didn’t believe I had a dog in the fight.

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  150. Enjoy your bourbon.

    Steve57 (c8ac21)

  151. Perhaps someone would expound on additional conspiracy theories, such as Vince Foster’s ‘suicide’ or the plethora of whitewater deaths or Clinton Commerce Sec. Ron Brown violent death? Or why assclowns like Axelrod pay no price for their sheer evil?

    Calypso Louis Farrakhan (e799d8)

  152. Comment by ropelight — 10/15/2012 @ 1:48 pm

    Incidentally, George DeMohrenschildt, uncle George to Jackie Kennedy, had dated Jackie’s mother

    I think I recall reading something about a connection between George DeMohrenschildt and Jackie Kennedy.

    before he married Abraham Zapruder’s business partner.

    Who married Abraham Zapruder’s business partner?

    This I never heard of. I never heard of any personal connection between Zapruder and anyone else.

    Small world, ech?

    There was one female journalist who interviewed both John F. Kennedy and Lee Harvey Oswald. The only person to do so. I read something she wrote.

    Sammy Finkelman (3bb022)

  153. Single bullet theory. Borking Bork. God bless.

    Comedy is not pretty, Arlen. RIP, Senator.

    Comment by DCSCA

    won’t speak ill of dead
    I’ll simply note passing of
    DCSCA

    Colonel Haiku (bd8703)

  154. On the internet, everyone is a crack shot, and no one knows which of them are dogs.

    Beldar (d8195e)

  155. Sammy, George DeMorhenschielt married Jeanne LeGon who was Zapruder’s business partner in Nardis Sportswear of Dallas, Texas, which was located in the Dal-Tex Building on the corner of Elm and Houston, across the street from the Texas School Book Depository.

    Type either of their names into your search engine or start with Wiklpedia. I guarantee you’ll find quite a bit more than you could possibly imagine and I know you have a fertile imagination.

    ropelight (b4851d)

  156. Here’s a little tidbit from Wikipedia to whet your appetite:

    George de Mohrenschildt (April 17, 1911 – March 29, 1977) was a petroleum geologist and professor who befriended Lee Harvey Oswald in the summer of 1962 and maintained that friendship until Oswald’s death, two days after the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. He was acquainted with the Bush family, including George H. W. Bush, with whose nephew, Edward G. Hooker, he had been roommates at Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts. He was also acquainted with the Bouvier family, including Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy, the president’s wife, when she was still a child. His testimony before the Warren Commission investigating the assassination was one of the longest of any witness.

    ropelight (ae008d)

  157. 154.

    Here’s a simple statement:

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14967

    Posted 04 November 2009 – 12:26 PM

    In 1953 Abraham Zapruder moved to Dallas and joined with Jeanne LeGon to form the clothing design firm called, Nardis of Dallas. Jeanne LeGon designed the clothing and Abraham Zapruder cut the patterns and the material for her. In 1959 the partnership broke up when Jeanne LeGon married George De Mohrenschildt.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  158. Comment by Calypso Louis Farrakhan — 10/15/2012 @ 4:41 pm

    Perhaps someone would expound on additional conspiracy theories, such as Vince Foster’s ‘suicide’

    I have a lot about that. For two years I thought it was suicide actually, till some common sense settled in.

    He was probably murdered by the long time Saudi Arabian Ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, now Saudi Arabian National Security Adviser, chief of intelligence, point man on the Arab Spring, would be king.

    I could also call him deputy leader of the Unfree World and Co-Chairman of the Axis of Evil.

    He was probably the source of the bad intelligence about Benghazi, and he’s good at what he does..

    I have a lot of citations, and will post them as soon as SQPR is prepared for a MEGO attack.

    On some day in July 1993, Prince Bandar had a secret unscheduled meeting with President Clinton and Sandy Burglar, according to a story leaked to Fred Barnes, then of the New Republic, and printed on page 10 of the March 14, 1994 New Republic.

    I was unbssuccessful in using the freedom of Information Act in finding the exact date and time of that meeting. The Secret Service claimed their records were not covered, and the White House counsel’s office likewise gave no answer. A roundabout way of attempting to get an answer (by asking for State Department records of such a meeting was finally answered early in the Bush Administration but I got no confirmation of such a meeting.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  159. March 1994 was right at the height of the Foster case leaks. It is my contention that the Fred Barnes article in the New Republic of March 14, 1994 is another Foster case leak.

    My hypothesis is that President Clinton told Prince Bandar to take Vincent Foster’s body into the nearest federal property, Ft. Marcy Park, and he would take care of the rest.

    Ft. Marcy park was right across the street from the Saudi Arabian Ambassadors’s residence (then undergoing renovations, actually, so he’d moved next doorand there were lots of people working for him around) where lots of meetings were held, and where he had guns, and many locked briefcases, which he told people contained secret records, but probably contained money.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  160. 119. Comment by ropelight — 10/15/2012 @ 1:48 pm

    Sammy, Ruth Paine got Oswald the job at TSBD after George DeMohrenschildt introduced Lee and Marina to her. Ruth was teaching Russian language classes at the time and claimed she wanted the opportunity to speak colloquial Russian with a native speaker. Ruth took Marina and the child into her home in Fort Worth. Marina was living there when she gave birth to her second child.

    No it wasn’t Ruth Payne who got Lee Harvey Oswald that job. Not really.

    George O’Toole’s 1975 book “The Assassination tapes” says on page 168, at the start of Chapter 10:

    Oswald applied for a job at the Texas School Book Depository at the suggestion of Mrs. Linnie Mae Randle, a neighbor of Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Randle’s brother, nineteen-year old Buell Wesley Frazier, was living with the Randles. Frazier worked in the book depository and drove his car the fifteen miles between dfallas and Irving each day.

    George O’Toole was very interested in talking to Buell Wesley Frazier, and he had sseemed to have disappeared. Two private detectives didn’t seem to want to help him and tried to get him to do otehr things. Finally, he contacted Anthony Pellicano.

    Pellicano evidentally had a reputation for finding misisng peoplle to uphold, so he foudn him, but he insisted on doing all the interviewing himself (and taping it and using a Voiuce Stress Analyzer – you know the machine taht had probably scared John Dean when he testified) to do it.

    Maybe you can prove Frazier was lying about something (particularly about having been given a polygraph test on Nov 22, 1963, which he denied)
    but that doesn’t tell you what the truth behind the lie was. O’Toole seems to be stuikc on the someone else other than Oswald shot Kennedy theory.

    The key question here would be: Was the acquaintanceship of Frazier and Ruth Paine random, or not?

    Incidentally, George DeMohrenschildt, uncle George to Jackie Kennedy, had dated Jackie’s mother before he married Abraham Zapruder’s business partner. Small world, ech?

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  161. Sammy, see if you can find out what ties Ruth Paine and several of her family members had to government intelligence activities.

    Then, you might want to look into what other important jobs Frazier did on LHO on the morning of 10/22/63.

    ropelight (ae008d)

  162. Arlen Specter changes affiliation, again

    The Emperor (0f6db7)

  163. You really make it appear really easy with your presentation however I to find this topic to be really one thing that I think I’d never understand. It seems too complicated and extremely broad for me. I am looking ahead on your subsequent publish, I’ll try to get the cling of it!

    anunturi|iasi (079679)


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