Patterico's Pontifications

3/4/2012

Carbonite Drops Limbaugh — But A-OK with Ed “Laura Ingraham Is a Slut” Schultz

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:42 pm

So a whole bunch of advertisers are dropping Rush Limbaugh. I always feel ambiguous about boycotts, pressure on advertisers, and such. For me, it generally comes down to the rightness of the cause. Here, I can’t get terribly excited on either side. Sure, Fluke is a fake; a 30-year-old who shouldn’t have sex if she can’t afford $9 a month for birth control pills — and someone who has grossly misled the country about the price of contraception. But calling her a “slut” and so forth? It seems personal and nasty to me, and if Rush really thought that was the appropriate way to handle it, he should have the courage of his convictions and tell off his advertisers.

Here’s what is outrageous, though: Carbonite advertises on Ed Schultz. And he called Laura Ingraham a “right-wing slut.”

I don’t recall Carbonite pulling their advertising then. I guess the operative word in the phrase “right-wing slut” is the word “right-wing.” If it’s a conservative you are calling nasty names, it’s A-OK.

That’s what Carbonite seems to be saying . . . doesn’t it?

So I figure that a lot of Limbaugh listeners subscribed to Carbonite for their backup needs because of Rush Limbaugh. And a lot of them might choose to stop because of Carbonite’s hypocrisy.

As I said, sometimes boycotts seem justified. Maybe this is one of those times.

551 Responses to “Carbonite Drops Limbaugh — But A-OK with Ed “Laura Ingraham Is a Slut” Schultz”

  1. First, Rush apologized. Second, no one who listens to Rush is going to stop because of the advertisers. Third, this is just a feint to distract people away from the serious issues facing the nation. Obama’s total failure as a president.

    The market always wins. The cowardly sponsors that chose to pull their advertisements will suffer the consequences. Trying to make up for the lost revenue from Schultz’ two watchers is a losing game.

    The left really thinks it can control the message.

    We are all Breitbart now.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  2. carbonite is gayer than putin in a volkswagen cabriolet with the top down and his shirt off

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  3. What strikes me, from the chart that Jacobsen showed, is there is no way that Carbonite go anywhere but down, maybe openly supporting the OWS
    wasn’t such a swift business move.

    the jibes at Putin aside, Putin understands how power is used, mock this ‘czar in all but crown’ at your peril.

    narciso (87e966)

  4. More effective would be sending “used” condoms to the CEO of carbonite. Just sayin’. Reverse Teabag.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  5. Big surprise. The CEO of the company is an uber-lefty, according to Dan Riehl…

    “An FEC search reveals several political donations from a David Friend at the same specific street address. This page lists two donations totalling $300 for that individual to MoveOn.org. The broader record for the same individual, (use search here) David Friend, at that address includes donations to the campaigns of Howard Dean, Democracy for America, Texans for Truth, Tony Knowles, John Kerry, Matthew Flynn and America Coming Together, as well as Gore/Lieberman.”

    If you think guys like him are going to apply the same standards to Limbaugh that they apply to Sergeant “I Know Nothing!” Schultz…you’re dreaming.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  6. There is a difference, Schultz called Ingraham a “slut” because he didn’t like her, Limbaugh called Fluke a “slut” because he said she was having too much sex or being too public about sex issues.

    So it’s not exactly the same thing.

    Society is changing, and one way it’s changing is that shaming women for being open about sex is becoming unacceptable.

    Some conservatives are unhappy about that. To them, it’s important to be able to publicly shame women who are too open about sex, so they won’t be too open about it. Those days are over.

    It’s a different affront to call a woman a “slut” or “prostitute” just because you don’t like them. It’s slightly less bad.

    “I’ve evaluated your policy positions on marginal tax rates and anti-ballistic missile defense, and I’ve decided to label you a slut” is fundamentally different in at least a small way than “I’ve evaluated your attitudes about sex and decided to label you a slut”

    Conservatives men need to get wise to this. It seems like a subtle distinction–if you have a d–k. To women I’ll bet it’s glaringly obvious. Many girls and women live in fear of being labeled a slut.

    Daryl Herbert (e3159e)

  7. Tony Knowles, is the Democratic governor that Palin defeated in 2006, Texans for Truth, were the folks challenging the Swift Boaters for Kerry, DfA, and
    ACT are Soros created and administered organizations

    narciso (87e966)

  8. “Many girls and women live in fear of being labeled a slut.”

    Daryl Herbert – Which is why we should be thankful for Sandra for going before Congress to talk publicly about how much sex the law students are having at Georgetown, because people were just dying of curiosity to know about stuff like that, or something and did not view it as a prearranged political stunt.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  9. daley, did she talk about sex they were having? She was talking about anything but. Rape, ovarian cysts, married couples who supposedly can’t afford birth control–of course she was lying/exaggerating, but she wasn’t talking about sorority orgies or anything sexy.

    Daryl Herbert (e3159e)

  10. There is a difference, Schultz called Ingraham a “slut” because he didn’t like her, Limbaugh called Fluke a “slut” because he said she was having too much sex or being too public about sex issues.

    And that justifies advertising with the former and not the latter? Really?

    Patterico (feda6b)

  11. To women I’ll bet it’s glaringly obvious

    Nope.
    If I’m not a slut, I don’t want to be called a slut regardless of the context.
    But any adult living in fear of being called a slut by a stranger probably has issues.

    MayBee (081489)

  12. Rush Limbaugh worked very hard, and succeeded, to make himself a conservative icon. Ed Schultz is a non-entity. When Rush Limbaugh says something it resounds. When he says something like this, it is a splotch on his image. With Ed Schultz, it is a faint, rude noise that you could blame on the dog.

    nk (dec503)

  13. Conservatives men need to get wise to this. It seems like a subtle distinction–if you have a d–k. To women I’ll bet it’s glaringly obvious. Many girls and women live in fear of being labeled a slut.

    So all these brassy, ballsy women of the 21st century can talk all they want about their incredibly fulfilling sex lives and how they are ready to take over the classroom and the lockeroom and the boardroom and the operatingroom and everything else, but at the same time they “live in fear of being labeled a slut” and they just crumble to pieces when a big, bad man dares to call them a mean name?

    Yeah, no contradiction there.

    JVW (4d72aa)

  14. this 30 year old slut will probably get a teaching job in some jr. high school and get caught with her hand in some little boy’s pants.

    sickofrinos (44de53)

  15. Our country is in trouble when a man cant say his mind in public but a woman can and when he apologizes they still try to crucify him. If it was reversed this would not make the news.

    alan (d74c59)

  16. The way I understand it is that it’s A-OK to call a woman a slut is she isn’t one, and a mortal sin to call a woman a slut if she is one.

    I mean, would it be all right to stand on the street as a slut-walk went by and wave and shout “Hi there sluts!” They are self-identifying as sluts, it’d be rude not to acknowledge them.

    Man, so much false outrage!

    Pious Agnostic (7c3d5b)

  17. When I heard about this, I was gobsmacked. After all the slutwalks, I thought slut was a praiseworthy term for Leftists.

    ErisGuy (20e1c2)

  18. I have a confession to make… I, Colonel Haiku, am a slut. At times, I’m an ignorant slut.

    I’ve given it away… free… and with a smile on my face.

    Colonel Haiku (66be0b)

  19. Shultz was suspended and apologized. But you have to step beyond the mere characterization of Rush’s remarks as “called someone a slut.” It went on. In detail. For days. Rush has not acted like Shultz, not in his sins, and not in his repentance. Until people, and Rush, understand these key differences, they’re going to continue to misunderstand how awful this was. Things like this don’t make me hopeful:

    “Which is why we should be thankful for Sandra for going before Congress to talk publicly about how much sex the law students are having at Georgetown”

    Because it’s ridiculous statement that runs off of what Rush said. Statements like that aren’t made by people that recognize the wrongness of what Rush has done. And that means he hasn’t communicated that wrongness.

    PresidentZero (518b93)

  20. An interesting comparison, would be not to ‘Tommy
    Boy’ but to Reverend Bacon, I mean Al Sharpton,

    narciso (87e966)

  21. Concern trolls suck

    JD (ddebbb)

  22. I wants me some o’dat free ‘ception. I be fluking all da livlong day, and I don’t need no punishing child fo my urges.

    ∅ (721840)

  23. well, you can see why he’d sensitive

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  24. *be* sensitive

    is too early to make the comments

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  25. oh my goodness someone get pooty poot a tissue

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  26. You’re missing another aspect: liberals are far more aggressive in going after companies and people they don’t like than are conservatives. Thus, it is understandable that an advertiser is going to pull away from Limbaugh and not MSNBC… there’s a bigger price to pay for not running from Limbaugh than the likes of Schultz.

    After all, when’s the last time a company paid a real price for taking an anti-conservative stance? Conservatives haven’t stopped buying GM cars, they haven’t stopped going to see movies starring the likes of Clooney and they haven’t stopped buying from businesses that donate millions of dollars to liberal causes.

    steve (369bc6)

  27. So basically, calling a slut a slut is bad, but calling a non-slut a slut is good.

    As a woman, I say that’s ridiculous. Either don’t use the word at all (which is preferable), or only use it with its correct, highly derogatory meaning (which is at least a fair cop).

    If some woman is living in fear of being called a slut, either she should stop living with verbally abusive people, or clean up her act.

    Either you’re a professional man or woman with a life of integrity and honor; or you’re having sex with everything that moves and you’re a self-destructive menace, no matter how famous you are.

    If this Fluke woman really has such self-destructive habits while attempting to go to school and enter a competitive profession, she needs psychological and ethical training, not birth control pills. She’s like the Black Knight in the Monty Python movie, spraying blood from her severed limbs, except that she’s demanding a Hello Kitty Band-Aid for what is “only a flesh wound.”

    Maureen (b1e80e)

  28. The story doesn’t really mesh, based on what her
    scholarship indicates, she has been very busy on many advisory panels and commission, formulating
    rules of one kind or another, some of it noble,; re the restraining orders against victims of domestic
    violence, so why did she put forward that impression
    that she’s a character out of Sex in the City.

    narciso (87e966)

  29. It was all scripted. It was a fake hearing.

    JD (ddebbb)

  30. You’re a wuss: “Here, I can’t get terribly excited on either side.”

    You’re the epitome of what’s wrong in the war for retaining free speech. Every time the Left finds a vulnerable point of attack you express indifference or say “everybody does it.”

    Frank (167bb8)

  31. I know just like the Iraq hearing with the 9/11 denialists in 2006, and inviting Colbert to speak on
    ‘Citizens United’ the reason they despised Breitbart
    so, ‘he read their book’ on agitprop.

    narciso (87e966)

  32. That was no Congressional hearing. It was a planned stage-managed DCCC press conference

    JD (ddebbb)

  33. I know JD ‘that was no moon’

    narciso (87e966)

  34. This is a Team R war on women.

    JD (318f81)

  35. it’s definitely massageyness

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  36. buy some of Rush’s tea today. Also, if an advertiser is on today and you can use the product- buy it! The only way to defeat their obnoxious voices is through purchasing power.

    letstrythis (696ff6)

  37. oh get a life

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  38. boycotting and odd displays of loyalty to a pompous and cowardly radio show host only serve to keep the contraception slut controversy alive

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  39. I always thought Carbonite was crazy. Get an exte3rnal hard drive and something like Norton Ghost. It’s not off-site, but your data is private.

    Amphipolis (b120ce)

  40. my friend P used Carbonite where he worked but he dropped it cause it was too slow and it’s too expensive to be as slow as it is

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  41. Online Backup Company Carbonite Loses Customers’ Data, Blames And Sues Suppliers

    you can’t trust Carbonite with your data

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  42. Now people, have the courage to call him SCOAMF, but back around three years ago, Obama was untouchable as too his policies, despite his long record of malfeasance when Rush said ‘he hoped he failed’ for the good of the Country, and who was proven right,

    narciso (87e966)

  43. AOL drops Limbaugh, and he continues his non-apology.

    PresidentZero (826205)

  44. Do you think changing your name, again, makes you more or less transparent in your asshattery?

    JD (ddebbb)

  45. Arianna’s sweatshop, would drop Rush, shockah.

    narciso (87e966)

  46. What is AOL?

    JD (ddebbb)

  47. I use Carbonite now. I was persuaded by Rush. Rush did not tell me that the CEO of Carbonite is apparently a big time lefty, adherent of Move On.Org and such.

    I was deceived! Well not really–the product does what it’s supposed to do, and I can’t give much of a rat’s patoot about the politics of the CEO of a company providing a service.

    But I do have a choice of which competing services I use. And when my contract with Carbonite is up, I’ll move to either I-Driv or Mozy. They do the same thing as Carbonite for about the same price and presumably their management won’t get caught up in some bullshit boycott. I don’t need the drama–I just need the service.

    And as for Darryl Herbert above suggesting that it’s okay for Ed Schultz to call Laura Ingraham a “right wing slut” because he didn’t like her; I posit to you that Limbaugh may have called Ms. Fluke a “slut” because he didn’t like her because of her views.

    I doubt that Schultz has ever met Ingraham, or that the two have passed any time in conversation. But Schultz didn’t “like” her! And that’s different from Limbaugh and Fluke–two people who’ve also never met and never passed any time in conversation.

    Gimme a break.

    Comanche Voter (0e06a9)

  48. “The statements he’s made about me over the air are personal enough, so I’d rather not have a personal phone call with him,” Fluke said.

    she sounds like she needs to get laid

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  49. When the government starts making a case that all Americans and all employers must cover women’s birth control…yeah, things are going to get personal.
    When Pelosi brings a woman in to Congress to give completely anecdotal evidence about why female contraception is very important, things are going to get personal.

    I’m sorry Fluke got called a bad name, but she really is old enough and smart enough to realize her stupid testimony in front of Congress was kind of a big deal.

    MayBee (081489)

  50. Slut:

    ‘The accepted denotative meaning is a sexually promiscuous woman[6] or “a woman of a low or loose character’–wiki

    A far as I’m concerned she’s a slut by definition, no matter what her personal sexual practises are. If she doesn’t like the characterization, that’s her tough luck.

    Anyone who tries to get the government to steal money from me, or other folks, in order to pay THEIR bills is lower than a snake’s belly, especially when they’re lying through their teeth, as she was (and she was doing it other oath, if I remember how Congressional hearings work), in order to justify your would be thievery.

    You don’t want to get called a slut and a prostitute, then don’t be one. Keep your freaking hands off my wallet. Don’t tell lies in the service of your utterly ignoble quest, and then you won’t ACCURATELY get called a slut and/or a prostitute.

    In the meantime I’m calling her exactly what she is:

    A slut, and a prostitute.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  51. “There is a difference, Schultz called Ingraham a “slut” because he didn’t like her”

    Nah, it’s the same idea.

    To us, anyone who lies and tries to get the government to steal our money in order to pay their bills is a person of low character; an immoral person. To them, anyone who resists their lying and stealing is an immoral person.

    The concept is the same, it’s the moral system that’s different.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  52. This serves to highlight multiple double standards – it is quite alright to call conservative women sluts or worse, it is worse to be called a slut than to be willingly used as a prop for a disingenuous Dem narrative, and the Dems will go to great lengths to obfuscate this issue with the overt assistance from the MFM

    JD (ddebbb)

  53. Why do so many rightys refer to Limbaugh as “Rush”?

    It reminds me of that Monty Python skit – the Sir Eddie-Baby Ross Interview.

    Leviticus (870be5)

  54. I once called him steve, but he did not answer.

    JD (318f81)

  55. Does he answer when you call him by the name he likes?

    Leviticus (870be5)

  56. El Rushbo? I don’t know. Not a listener.

    JD (318f81)

  57. Why do so many rightys refer to Limbaugh as “Rush”?

    Why do so many lefties refer to Olbermann as “Keith”? Why do so many African-Americans refer to Jackson as “Jesse” or Obama as “Barack”? Why was Eisenhower called “Ike”?

    My guess is that it is easier and quicker to say “Rush” than it is to say “Limbaugh,” and “Rush” is a distinctive enough name that it is immediately clear to whom we are referring. Seems like a weird question to ask; do you have a deeper subtext that I am missing?

    JVW (4d72aa)

  58. He is also referred too as Maha Rushie.

    narciso (87e966)

  59. It’s pretty shabby of Fluke to reject the apology, I think.

    Of course Rush is going to lose a few sponsors, but he’s not going to lose listeners (I bet he’s gaining them) and long term, will probably be just fine. It’s lame to see sponsors get political and the historical bias is lame too.

    And this is all a distraction from Ms Fluke’s disgusting demand for subsidized sex. The nation is deeply in debt, and she’s quite privileged yet is demanding freebies. At the cost of freedom of association.

    So no surprise such a selfish person reacted to the apology uncharitably.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  60. Oh, and the reason Rush was joking about Fluke was to point out that Fluke lied.

    Her pricetag for this stuff was a lie meant to make a very minor problem seem severe.

    She lied to the entire country in order to better attack our religious freedom.

    All Rush did was tell a dirty and rude joke, then apologize. Where’s Fluke’s apology to Congress and the country?

    By focusing on Rush, Fluke can dodge this.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  61. All Rush did was tell a dirty and rude joke, then apologize. Where’s Fluke’s apology to Congress and the country?

    Ms. Fluke has undoubtedly set herself up for a nice cushy job as a lawyer/lobbyist for a left-wing women’s organization as soon as she finishes her law degree. Slick move on her part — liberal students on the verge of graduation should look to her as a model for how to land a great position without having to go through that tedious process of sending resumes and going through interviews.

    JVW (4d72aa)

  62. I enjoy using the words Slut Flap.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  63. I haven’t used Carbonite since it was used to encase Han Solo by Boba Fett.

    :-)

    Aaron Worthing (73a7ea)

  64. I think Sandra’s Congressional testimony would have been a lot more effective if she had been wearing a giant vagina costume.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  65. JVW, that’s quite insightful. And yeah, she profited by lying and whining. It’s a great start to a certain kind of legal career.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  66. Ah, the Ugnaughts are running it, that explains everything.

    narciso (87e966)

  67. Darth Marketer: You may take your ads to Jabba the Shultz after I have Rush Skywalker

    Boba: This company is no good to me dead

    Darth Marketer: It will not be permanently damaged

    Boba: What if it doesn’t survive? My stock options are worth a lot to me.

    Darth Marketer: The Empire will compensate you with affordable health care.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  68. Dustin in your scenario, at the end, Fluke Vader says to RUSH.

    Rush, I am your Mother.

    Gus (36e9a7)

  69. More like “Rush, the economy is a real mother…”

    I gotta admit, using this woman to tell an obnoxious lie is extremely effective and changing the national dialogue to this contraception issue. That they have made this a very serious issue they are wrong on is too tempting to ignore.

    There’s something very skillful about picking an issue you lose on because you lose so much less than you would if we were talking about the economy.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  70. Dustin, the LEFT has abandoned the truth completely. They are dangerous, because they have infiltrated and control the education system and the Media.

    Rush must be destroyed.

    Gus (36e9a7)

  71. Dustin in your scenario, at the end, Fluke Vader says to RUSH.

    Rush, I am your Mother.

    Only in an alternative time-line universe / scenario… Darth Fluke is trying her darnedest to remain child free at this point by taxing others in her medical plan.

    BfC (2ebea6)

  72. Trying to avoid being punished with a kid by making other people pay for her free stuff.

    JD (ddebbb)

  73. Tenuous connection, but speaking of the treatment of women, it’s one year since Michelle Malkin’s cousin disappeared and I’m surprised there’s not a post on it.

    Full disclosure, I dispose Michelle’s effort to get Google to ignore its privacy policy, but the publicity couldn’t hurt the search for her.

    I also find some issues related to it interesting and relevant to people’s lives, for example the fact antidepressants, which she was on, increase suicidal thoughts and attempts, and there is now an FDA black box warning on these drugs’ labels to that effect.

    This is a rather curious “side” effect of an antidepressant, and patients and loved ones encouraging others to ‘get help’ should be aware of this fact.

    Indeed, expert testimony before Congress shows this may be partly responsible for the recent rash of military and veteran suicides.

    Finally, they may be implicated in spree killings and other violence against others and Canada’s drug warning labels contain language to that effect.

    Patients and loved ones especially parents making treatment decisions for vulnerqble minor children should be adequately informed about this.

    To prevent it.

    Let’s offer the option of caring psychotherapy and interpersonal therapy, diet therapy, exercise therapy, etc.

    Our loved ones are worth it, aren’t they?

    Random (b6a95a)

  74. *oppose

    Random (b6a95a)

  75. Haven’t used Carbonite, don’t think I’ll be changing that situation in the future.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  76. ISTM, that for every advertiser who walks away from the EIB, there are five or more standing in line to take their place.

    What was it that George Raft said so long ago:
    I don’t care what they say about me in the papers as long as they spell my name right!

    Rush is probably laughing all the way to the bank.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  77. ISTM, that for every advertiser who walks away from the EIB, there are five or more standing in line to take their place.

    Supply and Demand 101: the less companies competing for these spots, the less Rush can charge for them.

    Random (b6a95a)

  78. Rush Limbaugh is the one thing Al Franken has ever been right about.

    “Ed Schultz did it too” is a less-than-robust defense, but it’s always helpful to point out the double standards.

    The shame is that, once these mainstream advertisers all walk away, he still has the #1 radio show in the country. So Limbaugh listeners will be subjected to ads for scam auctions like beezid.com, fake homeopathic cures, and scam start your own home business crap. As noted above, lots of advertisers waiting in the wings, and the way national radio works, they basically place the ad for free and pay Rush’s company via kick-backs once listeners buy the stuff.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  79. The left can pull off these boycotts because they are nothing if not organized. Just in the last few years they’ve build an organization shell with no ‘middle’, the coffee party, and an organization with people, but no agenda, the occupy movement.

    The right can’t even figure out how to harness the tea party effectively.

    East Bay Jay (2fd7f7)

  80. The left can pull off these boycotts because they are nothing if not organized. Just in the last few years they’ve build an organization shell with no ‘middle’, the coffee party, and an organization with people, but no agenda, the occupy movement.

    The right can’t even figure out how to harness the tea party effectively.

    Collectivism is not without its advantages.

    Random Ant (b6a95a)

  81. “I also find some issues related to it interesting and relevant to people’s lives, for example the fact antidepressants, which she was on, increase suicidal thoughts and attempts”

    Random – Antidepressants MAY increase suicidal thoughts or actions in certain people, but the FDA has decided their benefits outweigh their risks.

    HotAir has a post up about Malkin’s cousin.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  82. Treacher and KPowers have excellent columns about this.

    JD (ddebbb)

  83. Bill Maher’s $1,000,000 remains with Barcky’s PAC. Incivility only goes one way.

    JD (ddebbb)

  84. Yes, the Left puts forth their message quite effectively, as all good “Brown Shirt” organizations do.

    TEA Partiers operate at a distinct disadvantage in that there is no one, all encompassing, nationwide organization and heirarchy.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  85. #76…not a post on malkin’s cousin where? I received malkin’s newsletter around 4 pm today and she talks about the missing cousin and an appeal to google.

    Funny how the liberals I know are so down with the talking points..Rethuglicans despise women and Obama cares about them deeply. Any problems in past three years are due to George W Bush’s mishandling of economy and the needless wars. Obama needs more time to straighten the mess out. It is like Congress has no responsibility for budgets and overspending. So nice to see that Boehner and Obama can play a friendly game of golf.

    Calypso Louie Farrakhan (d32e4c)

  86. For the most part their benefits are mediocre, DaleyRocks. 1/10 people has a robust positive response. 6/10 have ide effects. Many can’t stay on for more than 4 weeks. Most studies are about 6 week in length.

    Generally, as allowed by law, the drug companies only report positive studies to the FDA. Taking in totality, studies show they are barely better than placebo. Unlike a placebo, however, those receiving antidepressants are far more likely to relapse into repeated bouts of depression. Moreover, tey are likely to be diagnosed “bipolar 2″ as a result of reqctions to the stimulant effects of these drugs — the same ones which cause disordered thinking and increases in suicidality and even homicidality — resulting in being prescribed yet more psychiatric drugs, now in combination.

    They don’t even work by the advertised mechanism of correcting a “chemical imbalance” in the serotogenic system, it is widely acknowledged in medical textbooks, journals, and within the FDA.

    No way is proper informed consent being obtained the majority of times these drugs are prescribed.

    They’re also probably killing some soldiers and their families, and sadly, maybe this young woman as well. Violent suicides are rare among females, for example, but a lot more commong among those taking SSRIs.

    Random Ant (b6a95a)

  87. Generally, as allowed by law, the drug companies only report positive studies to the FDA.

    That is a gross exaggeration.

    JD (ddebbb)

  88. #76…not a post on malkin’s cousin where? I received malkin’s newsletter around 4 pm today and she talks about the missing cousin and an appeal to google.

    I meant here at Patterico’s. I’m pretty sure I remember the initial disappearance being covered.

    I realize this blog had other things to cover and limited time, it being a volunteer effort. Just saying it would have been nice to see a 1-year update considering how Michelle must feel about her cousin’s disappearance and how important and courageous Michelle has been for the cause.

    I don’t agree with her on everything, including whether Google should release info to her without a court order, but I certainly respect her work and her love for her family member.

    I mean, just look at all her photos. Where Michelle looks beautiful and tough, her cousin looks pretty and kind and not so strong. My heart goes out to the cousin especially.

    But I guess it’s my thing that I identify more so with the victim or distressed person more so than the family. To their credit, most people have concern for the impacted family covered ad best they can.

    Random Ant (b6a95a)

  89. “DaleyRocks. 1/10 people has a robust positive response. 6/10 have ide effects.”

    Random – Really? Any links for those stats?

    Long-term NIMH study showed only 4% with the negative side effects you described above.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  90. Generally, as allowed by law, the drug companies only report positive studies to the FDA.

    That is a gross exaggeration.

    Comment by JD — 3/5/2012 @ 2:52 pm

    I agree that it’s shocking and it should not be so. Alas, it is not a gross exaggeration. The FDA is aware of the problem and some efforts are underway to tighten this up, but ithas been bad thus far.

    This is literally just the first link that came up, but there are more and better.

    http://www.livescience.com/8365-dark-side-medical-research-widespread-bias-omissions.htm

    I have more data I could find and post specifically about SSRI study publishing and reporting, but it is difficult to get to on my iphone. Nonetheless, you’ll find that exact info here in this discussion, which is very interesting, and more about inform;d patient consent and being presented with all the effective treatment options, rather than opposing antidepressant prescriptions per se.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWE3UGl7KFk

    Random Ant (b6a95a)

  91. I meant gross exaggeration as in not true.

    JD (ddebbb)

  92. More useful and relevant information is here.

    medicine.plosjournals.org/archive/1549-1676/2/12/pdf/10.1371_journal.pmed.0020392-S.pdf

    This is on the massive gulf between the drug company marketing (both to patients and to doctors) and what is known and talked about in the scientific literature. In no way, shape, nor form are people given accurate info for informed consent.

    Random (b6a95a)

  93. JD – Doctors are poisoning patients with antidepressants.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  94. It is true, JD, and it has been routine practice for a long time.

    Random (b6a95a)

  95. I would agree that selective publishing is a problem, but saying “generally, as allowed by law” is a gross exaggeration.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  96. Didn’t Franken fail to pay taxes in something like 30 states, where he had corporate offices, wasn’t Air America, financed in part by plundering poverty
    funds in NY, in addition to being a blithering idiot
    on general principals.

    narciso (87e966)

  97. Didn’t Franken fail to pay taxes in something like 30 states, where he had corporate offices, wasn’t Air America, financed in part by plundering poverty
    funds in NY, in addition to being a blithering idiot
    on general principals.

    You mean principles, but yes. A stopped clock is right twice a day, or something.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  98. Random – As seen on 60 Minutes?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  99. The loophole is this, JD and carlitos: as the FDA has tightened up reporting requirements, drug companies have been shipping more drug studies outside of the US so they don’t have to report all negative results to the FDA

    Random (b6a95a)

  100. Yes, Patterico, really.
    There’s a difference in the uses of “slut” by Limbaugh and Schultz. It’s similar to the difference between the use of the word “douchebag” by those of your little followers here who fall back on that ad hominem slam to compensate for lack of reasoned argument, and to refer to a device for injecting fluids into a woman’s….uh, you might not get the point, but you see what I’m saying. (Oh, please do enjoy the Lilliputian ally oop slam dunks your minions make now will make on me with my having brought up “douchebag.” Ahem.)
    But if after that distinction yet another is needed, I refer you to Shultz’s quick and UNQUALIFIED, profuse, family-name raising, apology…..compared to the parsed and pulled-back faux-apology from Limbaugh.
    I hope Limbaugh sticks to his guns.
    And I hope you keep pushing quid-pro-quo boycotts. Numbers win out, dontcha know.

    Larry Reilly (e3ca54)

  101. The sexual side effects alone, as reported (underreported) from the drug companies themselves range from 5-15%, daleyrocks, so I don’t know where this 4% comes from. There are different studies, of course.

    I’m out and on my iphone, so I can’t necessarily track down every piece of info right this moment. I’ve already provided a lot.

    The crux of my argument is that drug companies don’t cole near meeting a basic standard of informed consent, particularly when they knowingly mislead people about the drugs’ basic mechanism of action (which is largely unknown).

    Random (b6a95a)

  102. Mawy Weilly is a JournoList. If that isn’t an indictment of the worlds oldest profession, nothing is.

    JD (ddebbb)

  103. compared to the parsed and pulled-back faux-apology from Limbaugh.

    Comment by Larry Reilly — 3/5/2012 @ 3:33 pm

    Rush gave a real apology.

    Gerald A (cc0aaa)

  104. *come near

    Random (b6a95a)

  105. The existence of a loophole and the sweeping. Lanier condemnation you made are not remotely similar.

    JD (ddebbb)

  106. “I’ve already provided a lot.”

    Random – Nothing on your claims about side effects that I saw.

    What does your crusade against antidepressants have to do with Slut Flap, the topic of this post?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  107. Lanier? I typed blanket.

    JD (ddebbb)

  108. Mawy Weilly explaining the use of the term “slut”, and “douchebag” (Mawy, you forgot “Douchenozzle”) is a bit rich, as it is both.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  109. There’s a difference in the uses of “slut” by Limbaugh and Schultz. It’s similar to the difference between the use of the word “douchebag”

    No it isn’t. Even if you’re fine with Rush’s joke, it wasn’t generic and OFF target (no one is really a douchebag), it was on target (she uses lots of birth control, so much so she needs others to pay for it and is therefore a slut and a compensated, in free birth control, whore).

    Me calling you an asshole isn’t the same as me calling you a john or a con artist. Your point doesn’t stand up to even rudimentary scrutiny.

    Random (b6a95a)

  110. Rush gave a real apology

    It’s only real if the Left says it’s real, for they are the determiners of reality in our man-induced, global-warming world.

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  111. “The crux of my argument is that drug companies don’t cole near meeting a basic standard of informed consent”

    Random – You keep using that term. Doctors describe the side effects, side effects are described on inserts with the medication. What is missing in your view?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  112. Random – Do you have a newsletter to which I can subscribe?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  113. The word larry reilly was looking for was “special pleading.” What schultz did was different, you see.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  114. Tenuous connection, but speaking of the treatment of women, it’s one year since Michelle Malkin’s cousin disappeared and I’m surprised there’s not a post on it.

    Pat’s probably been busy with other things. You should email tips like that to him, though.

    I didn’t realize it had been a year. All I can do is offer a prayer and look at the photos again in hopes I recognize her (I’m afraid I don’t).

    Dustin (401f3a)

  115. Mawy Weilly is a Massengill heir.

    JD (ddebbb)

  116. It’s Perez rather than Pena.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  117. Alright, first link at the top of the search results from the NIH:

    *;MC181155/” target=”_blank”>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC181155/

    It doesn’t give percentages for everything, but says after-market patient questionaires on sexual disfunction alone show 55-92%

    That doesn’t surprise me. I was on them, briefly, a few times a decade or two ago, and that was always an issue. The NIH article makes the point that one way to estimate side effects is how well people stay on the drug. Lots if people stop antidepressants in the first four weeks because of various side effect. I know I did.

    Why opposed to them? I think they kill people and ruin lives, more than they help. And they distract patients and professionals from things that work better. Perhaps as bad, research shows that, unlike placebo (which is almost as effective), they set people up for repeated bouts of depression: depression rates are far higher in groups that received antidepressants instead of placebo, easily wiping out any nominal benefit of SSRIs and SNRIs vs. placebo.

    At a minimum, we need informed consent, starting with telling people the true mechanism if action (which is not known unlike what the brochures say).

    Random (b6a95a)

  118. Is Marizela related to that mashed up bag of meat with lipstick on it?

    JD (ddebbb)

  119. Thanks, Dustin.

    Random (b6a95a)

  120. I know he’s striving in vain, for a squirrel, JD, but for the life of me, I don’t know what that is.

    narciso (87e966)

  121. The FDA routinely approves drugs with unknown MOAs.

    JD (ddebbb)

  122. Just like doctors amputate limbs and remove tonsels
    erroneously, for cash.

    narciso (87e966)

  123. Some days comments are surreal.

    JD (ddebbb)

  124. They do, JD. The problem is drug companies deceicing everyone with happy feel-good diagrams showing the alleged method of action that was based on an original, now discredited hypothesis.

    You don’t have informed consent if you’re lying to people.

    Random (b6a95a)

  125. Doctors give informed consent.

    JD (ddebbb)

  126. I’m so cold. Hold me pass me a Lanier, JD.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  127. Where will we get the witch hazel and wolf’s bane,
    is phrenology next among approved sciences

    narciso (87e966)

  128. This paper on the increases in suicidal ideation and hostility of chlildren put on antidepressants is scary stuff

    The drug companies didn’t love the FDA putting on te largr black box warnings for their products: they had no choice, and it was the pioneering work of Peter Breggin (the man who was mostly responsible for derailing an attempt to reinstitute widespread lobotomies in the 70s) that got that done.

    Increased suicidal thoughts and brhavior is not a small detail in a product prescribed to unhappy, suicidal people. Indont have any real way of knowing, but it was obvious from reading Michelle’s post this morning that she fears Marizella may have taken her own life. Since the link between antidepressants and suicidality is most strongly established for people under 24, as stated in the FDA blackbox label, and Marizella was 18 and on antidepressants when she went missing, I fear there may be a connection.

    Parents and others should be aware of this strong link in a product prescribed to depressed youth.

    So should soldiers.

    Random (b6a95a)

  129. Link to paper on increase in suicidality and hostility of yourh prescribed antidepressants:

    TReview.pdf” target=”_blank”>http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/ac/04/briefing/2004-4065b1-10-TAB08-Hammads-Review.pd</a

    The increases are dramatic and more so for hostility even than suicidal ideation.

    Random (b6a95a)

  130. Is Marizela related to that mashed up bag of meat with lipstick on it?

    Comment by JD

    It’s staggering when you compare how the media gives examples like that a total pass to the reaction to Rush, who actually had a point behind his inappropriate comment. All Keith was saying there was that he is hateful.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  131. it was the pioneering work of Peter Breggin

    Peter Breggin? Peter freaking Breggin? Peter Breggin is an anti-psychiatry crank, that is not in any way backed by science. Shame on you for bringing this nonsense here. What are you, a scientologist or something?

    “This court finds that the evidence of Peter Breggin, as a purported expert, fails nearly all particulars under the standard set forth in Daubert and its progeny. . . . . Simply put, the Court believes that Dr. Breggin’s opinions do not rise to the level of an opinion based on “good science.” The motion to exclude his testimony as an expert witness should be granted. — Magistrate Judge B. Waugh Crigler in Lam v. The Upjohn Company, No. 94-0033-H, W. Dist., of VA (Harrisonburg Division, U.S. District Court, 1995)”

    “The court believes not only is this gentleman unqualified to render the opinions that he did, I believe that his bias in this case is blinding. . . . I find that he . . . was not only unprepared, he was mistaken in a lot of the factual basis for which he expressed his opinion. . . . The court is going to strike the testimony of Dr. Breggin, finding that it has no rational basis. — Judge Hilary J. Caplan in Lightner v. Alessi, No. 94013064/CL174959 (Baltimore City Circuit Court, 1995).”

    “Dr. Breggin’s observations are totally without credibility. I can almost declare him, I guess from statements that floor me, to say the he’s a fraud or at least approaching that He has made some outrageous statements and written outrageous books and which he says he has now withdrawn and his thinking is different. He’s untrained. He’s a member of no hospital staff. He has not since medical school participated in any studies to support his conclusions except maybe one. . . . I can’t place any credence or credibility in what he has to recommend in this case. — Judge James W. Rice in Schellinger v. Schellinger, No. 93-FA-939-763 (Milwaukee County Circuit Court, 1997)”

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  132. “Random” is lucky that his iPhone was made by believers in the scientific method, and not paranoid anti-science idiots like his boy Breggin.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  133. Link to paper on increase in suicidality and hostility of yourh prescribed antidepressants:

    From “Random’s” link:

    Reviewer’s Conclusions
    o The involved search of adverse events in various drug development programs and the
    blinded classification process identified many events not previously identified and
    also eliminated a number of events that were not appropriately classified, thus
    reducing misclassification and providing more accurate risk estimates.
    o It should be noted that, among the events considered representative of suicidality in
    these 25 pediatric antidepressant trials, there were no completed suicides.
    o No individual trial showed a statistically significant signal for suicidality. However,
    many had a RR of 2 or more and some of the overall estimates, across various trial
    groupings, were statistically significant.
    o The strength of the suicidality signal, although it varies from drug to drug, is
    comparable to previous findings for most drugs.
    o The sensitivity analyses did not yield a meaningful difference in the magnitude of the
    estimated risks.
    o The differences in the risk estimates between trials within the same drug in the same
    indication might be partially explained by some of the trials’ design attributes.
    o Most of the events occurred in trials with the highest proportion of patients with a
    history of suicide attempt or ideation at baseline.
    o Notwithstanding the missing data on covariates, no meaningful effect modification or
    confounding was detected for any trial.
    o The time to event analysis showed that the hazard may not be constant over time, and
    may not always be proportional between the drug and the placebo groups.
    o Drug treatment is associated with symptoms of hostility or agitation. However, it was
    not possible to explore a possible link between the occurrence of these symptoms and
    suicidality due to limitations in the available data

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  134. I don’t know the first thing about medicine, but I always thought suicide was a risk factor when prescribing anti depressants because it can restore willpower to those in bad situations.

    It’s also pretty fair to be skeptical of medical claims today, even as we take the best chances medicine provides us.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  135. Skeptical is fair. Posting anti-science nonsense is not.

    “Random” has an ulterior motive. My best guess is that she’s a scientologist, but I’ll wait for “Random” to explain herself.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  136. Breggin’s testimony has been accepted as expert in several courts, as if this appeal to popularity is important. He was successful in staving off a return to surgical lobotomy by the great scientists of psychiatry. He helped get the black box warning about increased suicidality in youth implemented by the FDA. He gave expert testimoy to congress about antidepressant caused suicide and domestic violence rates in Congress in 2010. His work and testimony helped get hostility to others added to the Canadian drug warning labels for Proza. He has never loat a patient to suicide — without medication — in his 50 year career.

    He’s even a political conservative who teaches personal accoutability and American values. He respects the constitution and the freedom of Americans.

    Breggin is a great practicing scientist, an honest researcher, and an American hero.

    Mainstream psychiatrists, on the other hand, were the profession with the highest early membership im the Nazi party. Let’s not forget their contribution to social control in Soviet Russia (or modern America).

    You ever actually see the research on how accurate scientific diagnosis is? Good luck seeing 5 psychiatrists and not getting 4 or 5 different diagnoses.

    Random (b6a95a)

  137. I am not, nor is Peter Breggin for that matter, a scientologist. But even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

    Random (b6a95a)

  138. Liar.

    http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/breggin.html

    Breggin is a quack.

    “Random” – are you a scientologist? Yes or no?

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  139. We cross-posted, so I apologize.

    “Random” claims not to be a scientologist; she’s apparently just an ignoramus anti-psychiatry crank, pushing junk science.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  140. but most of the time stopped clocks are wrong

    almost always really

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  141. Breggin’s testimony has been accepted as expert in several courts,

    Indeed!!!!

    This court finds that the evidence of Peter Breggin, as a purported expert, fails nearly all particulars under the standard set forth in Daubert and its progeny. . . . . Simply put, the Court believes that Dr. Breggin’s opinions do not rise to the level of an opinion based on “good science.” The motion to exclude his testimony as an expert witness should be granted.—Report & recommendation. Magistrate Judge B. Waugh Crigler in Lam v. The Upjohn Company, No. 94-0033-H, W. Dist., of VA (Harrisonburg Division, U.S. District Court, 1995)

    The court believes not only is this gentleman unqualified to render the opinions that he did, I believe that his bias in this case is blinding. . . . I find that he . . . was not only unprepared, he was mistaken in a lot of the factual basis for which he expressed his opinion. . . . The court is going to strike the testimony of Dr. Breggin, finding that it has no rational basis.—Excerpt of hearing. Judge Hilary J. Caplan in Lightner v. Alessi, No. 94013064/CL174959 (Baltimore City Circuit Court, 1995).

    Dr. Breggin’s observations are totally without credibility. I can almost declare him, I guess from statements that floor me, to say the he’s a fraud or at least approaching that He has made some outrageous statements and written outrageous books and which he says he has now withdrawn and his thinking is different. He’s untrained. He’s a member of no hospital staff. He has not since medical school participated in any studies to support his conclusions except maybe one. . . . I can’t place any credence or credibility in what he has to recommend in this case.—Excerpt of trial, order, and decision. Judge James W. Rice in Schellinger v. Schellinger, No. 93-FA-939-763 (Milwaukee County Circuit Court, 1997)

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  142. This is a good article and, as will be no surprise, I agree with Breggin’s points:

    Scientists as Liars: From Global Warming to Biological Psychiatry

    “Peer review provides no protection whatsoever from this monopolization of science. In fact, it aids and abets it.”

    ~~~

    Now I’m a strict materialist-determinist (unlike Breggin who believed in icorporating a patient’d religious beliefs into their treatment). I, personally, have no theoretical problem with biological psychiatry other than the fact the human brain is so vastly complex we have have no realistic idea how to improve it with drugs, electricity, or surgery (but we’re good at damaging it).

    Random (b6a95a)

  143. Denier!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  144. The interesting thing, there is a book by Ian McCalman, that shows this was the method used to promote evolution, it wasn’t the sheer superiority
    of the theory,

    narciso (87e966)

  145. than the fact the human brain is so vastly complex we have have no realistic idea how to improve it with drugs, electricity, or surgery

    I disagree… I can think of a few folks who would be vastly improved if gifted with a frontal lobotomy.

    Colonel Haiku (fddb79)

  146. Comment by carlitos — 3/5/2012 @ 4:36 pm

    “Random” is lucky that his iPhone was made by believers in the scientific method, and not paranoid anti-science idiots like his boy Breggin

    The iPhone was NOT made by believers in the scientific method, if by the scientific method you mean you can’t say anything until it has been published in peer reviewed scientific journals, and even then you can only slightly disagree with the consensus, and there supposed to be a consensus that nobody disagrees with. and progress and correction of errors is exceedingly slow.

    The iPhone was made by people under the direction of Steve Jobs, who dropped out of college and didn’t even use focus groups. And at the last minute, he directed that the plastic screen of the iPhone, which could scratch, be replaced with glass.

    http://www.phonearena.com/news/Steve-Jobs-desire-for-scratch-resistant-glass-is-why-the-Apple-iPhone-is-not-Made-in-America_id26148

    Steve Jobs and no experts. Steve Jobs and no consultants. Steve Jobs and no committee. experts. Steve Job. Steve Jobs and nobody else. And that’s how progress is made.

    Of course he made mistakes, and if he believed the Chinese time cards, well, I’d suppose he’d believe John Liu’s campaign finance reports (accounting records) also.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/city-controller-john-liu-chief-fundraiser-arrested-straw-donors-illegal-contributions-article-1.1029889

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/jia-jenny-hou-busted-charges-campaign-finance-fraud-hung-dry-controller-john-liu-article-1.1031112
    But anyway, Steve Jobs was not a scientist he was a tinkerer.

    You know what the scientific method gets you? No new antibiotics. You know what the non-scientific method would get you? A cure or near cure for cancer, and much greater understanding.

    Sammy Finkelman (728434)

  147. Ed Shultz for starters…

    Colonel Haiku (fddb79)

  148. The way I understand it, Wozniak was the real tech guru, whereas Jobs was the conceptual designer,

    narciso (87e966)

  149. Is Random user Curious, from Ace’s Site?

    No disrespect, just asking.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  150. It is possible, indeed likely, that antidepressants help some people.

    Now I think, since the rates of symptom reduction is similar to placebo, that much of this modest benefit is via the placebo effect. But so what? That’s still beneficial.

    As to the remainder, I suspect much of it that a change fr a sh-tty mental situation might just be a change for the better. And they do have a bit if a stimulant effect. And sterotoning is affected somehow (although I think this actually causes brain damage, new abnormal neuron growth, etc.).

    But.

    These limited benefits distract energy from other equally treatment, but less negative side effect, modalities. And the side effects can be quite severe including increasing risk of suicide attempts especially in young people. And they don’t work via the mechanism people are mislead into believing they do. So:

    People need better, more accurate disclosure.

    And people should realize opting out of these drugs is a valid choice.

    And more energy should go into psychotherapy, interpersonal therapy, diet therapy, and exercise.

    Random (b6a95a)

  151. Gee, iphone induced typos. You get the gist.

    Random (b6a95a)

  152. I’m user Random from Ace’s site. Also from Hot Gas.

    Random (b6a95a)

  153. Anyone woman who needs $1,000 a year for contraception is a slut. Expecting the government to pay for it makes her a nut job.

    Can’t she just buy some condoms at the truck stop?

    AZ Bob (3b8a4c)

  154. “I always feel ambiguous”

    The word is “ambivalent.”

    carol (e572cc)

  155. Surreal

    JD (ddebbb)

  156. Well, Random, I haven’t read everything you posted here but you are Saying MM’s cousin is missing because of anti-depressants?

    That is rather odd in my opinion.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  157. Mawry, you ignorant douchenozzle!

    Icy (a53438)

  158. #

    Comment by Dustin — 3/5/2012 @ 4:46 pm

    I don’t know the first thing about medicine, but I always thought suicide was a risk factor when prescribing anti depressants because it can restore willpower to those in bad situations.

    Then you’re ahead of everybody else on this matter. That’s what I thought was the logical connection (which nobody seems to make, probably because suicide is not supposed to be related to the human environment somebody finds themselves in even though it obviously is – it’s a bad, wrong and unwise reaction, but it nevertheless is related) but I only thought that once I heard the claims.

    It’s also pretty fair to be skeptical of medical claims today, even as we take the best chances medicine provides us.

    If only more people had the same attitude.

    Re: Peter Breggin

    Robert Whitaker is probably a much better source than Breggin.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Whitaker_%28author%29

    (This article is really a stub.)

    Here is a link from the wikipedia article which has more links.

    http://www.madinamerica.com

    He wrote two books on this subject: Mad in America and Anatomy of an Epidemic. If anyoone wants to buy them, they should probably go through the amazon.com link on the side.

    The worst and most startling thing about antidepressants is that taking them consistently for years reduces life expectancy by about 10 to 15 years. It’s worse than smoking (which, besides that, would probably be a much less debilitating treatment)

    This is not speculation. It is well known in the literature. People diagnosed with schizophrenia and the like who take prescribed antidepressants for years die sooner. No question about it. The only question is why. The reason is not more suicides.

    The reason I think, and here I’m probably ahead of everybody else, is probably because of the effect on the liver and the kidneys of having to work so hard to clear the chemicals from the body. This uses up vitamins and other nutrients, which when missing are supplied by breakdown of body tissue, or non-manufacturing, or manufacturing less, of some things the body needs.

    The biggest thing this causes is heart disease. And this is not just true for anti-depressants, but for most pills. The right diet or supplements could probably mitigate or eliminate this problem but nobody studies this. Nobody even guesses. And this is why generics don’t always have the same effects on the body as the brand drug. They have different compounds as inactive ingredients.

    Sammy Finkelman (728434)

  159. Has anybody thought about the idea that Ritalin may be the reason that fewer males are going to college and now women college students outnumber men?

    It’s that bad.

    Sammy Finkelman (728434)

  160. Another difference between Rush and Schultz is that Rush is understood to be a satirist. Schultz is a straight news man. People have defended obscene references to Sarah Palin by some liberal media people on the grounds that the people doing it, like Maher, are comedians. You can believe that makes a difference or not. I don’t believe that’s a valid defense of either Rush or Maher but it’s how libs defended Maher.

    Gerald A (cc0aaa)

  161. Noodles, I’m not saying that, of course. I have no way of knowing.

    Neither does Michelle have any way of knowing when today she speculated on her site that:

    Reminder: As we’ve noted since the day of her disappearance, she was taking anti-depressants at the time of her disappearance. The daunting possibility that she took her life, and the signs that cannot be ignored, still weighs heavily on our minds — as do all the other frightening possibilities as her case remains unsolved and unresolved. I’ve urged you before to support volunteer groups that provide hope and solace for those in need. To honor Marizela, I ask again that you do so if you are able.

    I was aware of a few things.

    1.) Women attempt suicide a lot, but complete suicide less often than men. However, antidepressants increase the violence of suicide attempts, particularly by women, who rarely use very violent methods to attempt to destroy themselves.

    2.) The FDA has mandated a prominent black box warning on antidepressants advising they increase suicidal ideation in people 24 and under, if I remember correctly.

    3.) Marizela was 18 when she went missing, and taking antidepressants.

    That doesn’t mean the antidepressants caused a suicide, and we don’t even know if she attempted suicide. But someone who knows her well fears she did. And the two are associated together strongly, particularly when introducing a new antidepressant, changing the dosage of one, or stopping one.

    So it’s possible.

    Likewise, we don’t know if Andrew Breitbart would have lived if he’d relaxed more, but it’s possible.

    So I’m raising the issue because these drugs are not as harmless as people have been mislead to believe, and pose dangers to people of any age, particularly young people like Marizela, and soldiers, who are overprescribed these drugs greatly.

    I hope, obviously, that Marizela just ran away and is happy somewhere in hiding. Everyone hopes that, I think.

    If she has come to her end, then sad though it would be, I hope it was her choice and she was not assaulted by another. But … I think drugs contribute to suicide attempts, based on the evidence (and some personal experience from when I was around her age) and, therefore, I wanted to present the evidence so people can make a more informed decision.

    It isn’t like they’re likely to be told this when being told to take the drugs or for their children (or soldiers under their care, for that matter) to take them.

    As far as this:

    I’ve urged you before to support volunteer groups that provide hope and solace for those in need. To honor Marizela, I ask again that you do so if you are able.

    … I’m entirely down with the hope and solace thing. To that end, I am a fan of the work of the Empathic Therapy Center, yes founded by Peter Breggin and colleagues. Even if he is ultimately too opposed to psychiatric drugs in all circumstances, he and his colleagues are generally quite good psychosocial therapists and this modality helps many people, and has for centuries.

    Random (4d8947)

  162. Has anybody thought about the idea that Ritalin may be the reason that fewer males are going to college and now women college students outnumber men?

    It’s that bad.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 3/5/2012 @ 6:40 pm

    It may be a factor.

    I do think humans are meant to move. Outdoors even. Boys especially. To roughhouse and compete.

    These are hardly encouraged in a modern schooling environment. Instead, it’s sit in rows and behave, and if you act rambunctious, we have a pill for you.

    Random (4d8947)

  163. I hope this is an absurd troll job. It’s the only way my brain can digest it.

    If not, sorry to have bothered you. Carry on.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  164. You are glib, Noodles. Glib.

    JD (318f81)

  165. I hope this is an absurd troll job. It’s the only way my brain can digest it.

    If not, sorry to have bothered you. Carry on.

    Comment by Noodles — 3/5/2012 @ 6:46 pm

    I really don’t get how you’re not understanding this, Noodles.

    Marizela is missing. Michelle wrote today she was taking antidepressants and she fears Marizela may have committed suicide. There is so much evidence for antidepressants being associated with increased suicidal ideation in people Marizela’s age that they have implemented a mandatory black box warning advising this fact in labelling. Michelle also wants people to support organizations that provide hope and solace. I’m promoting one that does, and warning people of the dangers of antidepressants, especially for youths per the FDA warning, in an effort to protect others from possible harm.

    Why do you think that is a troll job? Can you not take it at face value?

    Random (4d8947)

  166. Carlitos – what percentage of experts get excluded under Daubert?

    JD (318f81)

  167. Okay, I had not read that. I will check her site out later. I thought you came up with this theory all on your own or something.

    I read it as large rambling screed on antidepressants. Seemed like a troll job.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  168. What are your crimes JD? What are your crimes!?

    (That’s what Scienos say =)

    Noodles (3681c4)

  169. My the tans are not in order.

    JD (318f81)

  170. My Thetans are not in order.

    JD (318f81)

  171. Random is a likely scientologist, liar, and idiot. Feel free to defend this nut-job, Finkelstein.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  172. What OT are you Random? OT3 is where the story really gets good.

    Body Thetans are no joking matter! They are like cooties but also like ghosts.

    They are ghost cooties!

    Noodles (3681c4)

  173. I mean you’re entitled to disagree. I would even use that famous counterphrase, “the science is not settled”. But do you really think I am actually trying to harm people emotionally by raising this issue?

    I realize it’s an unsettling series of related topics — disappearance of someone, possible suicide, psychiatric drugs vs. non-biological psychological treatment and on and on — but my motives for discussion issue range from curiosity about the underlying topics to wanting to help others in the future.

    I don’t know Marizela. I look at her picture and what do I see? An attractive, sweet young woman. Someone, frankly, I would invite on a date — in the unlikely event she would have accepted. Someone whom, in an case, doesn’t look like she would think about harming a fly.

    I don’t want anything bad to have happened to her. I hope for the best. I fear the worse.

    If she did take her own life, then that could have been because of the underlying life problems she was having that prompted her to go on the antidepressants, or it could have been precipitated by the antidepressants. No one will ever be able to definitely know which was the case in a sample size of one … unless a patient maybe left a journal and it showed marked deterioration after taking a drug, or pronounced suidical intentions even before.

    In short, I can’t know. I don’t claim to.

    But I am aware of the risks these drugs pose and how they can disorder thinking — both experientially from a couple decades ago (brief, unpleasant episodes, fortunately), and much later, from study.

    We all have our unique perspectives and windows into the world. This is one I have some insight in and interest in so I’m talking about it today.

    I’ve said that while I’m leery of antidepressants in general, and supportive of psychosocial talk therapy approaches (and a natural primal-type diet and vigorous exercise and being out in nature and especially around people), all I’m really asking for as an initial positive step is better public awareness and informed consent.

    The fact, as I’ve shown above with study data, that the drug companies present an old hypothesis about how these drugs work as fact in their marketing brochures to patients and doctors, despite the fact their own research papers and the medical journals do not support this model, is an example of what needs to change to have informed consent.

    Likewise, increasing suicidal ideation is a heck of a “side effect” for antidepressants, and people need to be aware of it.

    Random (4d8947)

  174. This is not speculation. It is well known in the literature. People diagnosed with schizophrenia and the like who take prescribed antidepressants for years die sooner. No question about it. The only question is why. The reason is not more suicides.

    The reason I think, and here I’m probably ahead of everybody else, is probably because of the effect on the liver and the kidneys of having to work so hard to clear the chemicals from the body. This uses up vitamins and other nutrients, which when missing are supplied by breakdown of body tissue, or non-manufacturing, or manufacturing less, of some things the body needs.

    The biggest thing this causes is heart disease. And this is not just true for anti-depressants, but for most pills. The right diet or supplements could probably mitigate or eliminate this problem but nobody studies this. Nobody even guesses. And this is why generics don’t always have the same effects on the body as the brand drug. They have different compounds as inactive ingredients.

    Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 3/5/2012 @ 6:34 pm

    Liar. The bold part tells anyone with a lick of common sense that you are just making this shit up. Yeah, you’re “ahead of everyone else” if by “ahead” you mean “wrong.”

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  175. I’m leery of antidepressants in general,

    and of spelling. In general.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  176. Alright, you people are not serious nor remotely concerned about the science nor people’s health and wellbeing, with a few welcome exceptions.

    That is to your discredit, about such a serious topic on such a day, but it is your call if that’s who you wish to be.

    It goes without saying I’m not a scientologist. I’m well known here and anywhere I comment as being an atheist and materialist interested in evidence-based science, eschewing politically correct biases.

    Random (4d8947)

  177. scientologists are stupid but this one knows how to make tasty pancakes and it’s been my favorite breakfast place for almost a decade, cause of how tasty it is plus it’s just a nice place with good service and such

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  178. I don’t make fun of Scientology because of what people believe or don’t believe. I mock it because they are deceitful to the people that go there.

    Example: I can walk into most any church in America and ask them what they believe and they will tell me. Scientology doesn’t do that. They tell you after many years and about $100,000.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  179. How many people have to experience a side effect in clinical trials for said side effect to make it on the packet insert?

    JD (318f81)

  180. Robert Whitaker is probably a much better source than Breggin.

    Another anti-science, pro-scientology, quack doctor. No. You are wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  181. I was jumping to the end to make a comment about Rush (easier to say and spell than Limbaugh) and I see a discussion about antidepressants and such.

    First about Rush, maybe already said above, I did not read it all.
    1) He made the point today that his show is geared to his listeners, that he turns down millions of dollars of advertising opportunities every year for various reasons. Carbonite will suffer from lost exposure long before Rush suffers from lost advertising.
    2) He thinks he made a tactical error (my words) in how he worded his comments about the matter last week.

    Concerning “antidepressants”
    1) not everything that affects the mind/brain chemistry is an “antidepressant”. People with schizophrenia, for example, do not routinely take “antidepressants”, they take “antipsychotics”
    2) once you have a class of medications named correctly, such as “antidepressant”, you still are talking about multiple medications often in multiple chemical classes working by multiple mechanisms, some better understood than others
    3) prior to around 1950 or so, the majority of hospital beds in the US were for psychiatric patients. Antipsychotic medications along with other psycho-active meds made it possible for many people to live outside of the hospital. Unfortunately, for many reasons, the amount of support needed to keep many functioning well out of the hospital doesn’t exist, as well as hospitalization policies that would serve many people better
    4) depression, manic-depressive disorder, and other conditions can be fatal. The death of any one who commits suicide after stopping drugs at the advice of another should be treated at least as wrongful death from medical practice without a license. Advice is cheap. advice that kills shouldn’t be.

    5) It has been long known, as alluded to above, that sometimes a person with depression may be so “vegetative” or “psycho-motor slowed” that they do not have the energy required to act out a desire to kill themselves. The original antidepressants were more dangerous in overdose in low amounts, so people were generally given a limited number of pills and seen frequently (at least once a week) until it was clear the patient was no longer in danger. Starting with Prozac in the 1980′s came newer medications for depression that were much, much safer in case of overdose. Between that safety factor and pressure on medical practice in general, it became much more common to give a prescription for meds and “see you in a month”. So, the meds are not as dangerous in overdose, by the unintended consequence was less monitoring of the patient and a greater risk for suicidal thoughts/plans/actions to emerge.

    As far as I know, nobody has ever looked at this critically in a way to document it.

    As most things of any complexity in life, our understanding changes with time. At one time it was thought that only “endogenous” depression, (“depression without a reason to be depressed”), would respond to medication, so there was no reason to treat “exogenous” depression (“If I was you I’d be depressed too”). It should be of no surprise that there is overlap and that medication can be a useful tool even in exogenous depression. [If I broke my hand by hitting a concrete wall a cast will help, even if your hand would be broken by hitting the wall too.]

    I have gone well over my self-allotted time, so I must go now, though I will make clear none of this was intended to be medical advice used by any individual or individuals.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  182. Breaking news – Obama has cancelled the G8 Summit! My May is going to be much more relaxed.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  183. Unlike you, I’m not “glib” on this topic on the anniversary of Marizela going missing, Noodles. I may be brash, outspoken, controversial, or what have you, but I am sincere. So despite your juvenile slurs and outright ad hominem guilt by association (as if being a scientologist would change the science in any case) innendos, I will address your comment:

    Okay, I had not read that. I will check her site out later. I thought you came up with this theory all on your own or something.

    I read it as large rambling screed on antidepressants. Seemed like a troll job.

    Comment by Noodles — 3/5/2012 @ 6:56 pm

    … seriously. You haven’t shown yourself as deserving to be taken seriously, but the topic does.

    I’m not claiming Michelle Malkin agrees with a classic person-centered view of psychiatry as opposed to the more in-vogue bio-psychiatry. I have no idea.

    I think maybe she might be open to it because she knows Marizela was on antidepressants and fears she may have suicided. So, perhaps she’d be open to taking a look. She did specifically ask for people to support volunteer organizations that provide “hope and solace”, rather than psychiatric drugs and ECT. So there’s that.

    But I am not privy to her thoughts. These are my thoughts.

    Random (4d8947)

  184. The tobacco companies don’t want to get into the benefits of smoking, because then it would be considered a drug, and the FDA would regulate it and maybe limit it, and it’s hard anyway to prove anything.

    But they know, just like they know about the harmful effects, but Congress never was interested in investigating that. They made a command decision probably back in the 1950s, not to get into this thing. Nor to add things like vitamins in the packages to mitigate the ill effects.

    Somebody collected accounts of the medical benefits of smoking:

    http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/therap.htm

    See also: http://www.livescience.com/15115-5-health-benefits-smoking-disease.html

    It tends to prevent or postpone Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s helps in cases of Downs syndrome, and in pregnancy, even pre-eclampsia, and neural tube defects (although folic acid is probably better)

    On the other hand, even a little bit of second hand smoke, or air pollution, can trigger heart attacks in the right people. E-cigarettes, though probably should be safe for people nearby.

    The smoker himself has a much greater risk of heart and other circulatory diseases, and it is heart disease, not any kind of lung problem, and there are several associated with smoking, that is the main adverse health effect of smoking. But their attacks may be less serious than those who get heart attacks for other reasons.

    Smoking probably killed President Franklin Delano Roosevelt in 1945 at the age of 63. But all you hear about is lung cancer. There was the strongest statistical proof for that, because the rate was much higher in smokers.

    Sammy Finkelman (728434)

  185. Oh good Allah

    JD (318f81)

  186. I said above, MD in Philly, that suicide risk increases with starting, changing dosage of, or stopping antidepressants. None of this should be down without supervision and, preerrably, tapering.

    I’m simplifying by using antidepressants in general, however, there are different classes with different affects, of course. SSRIs, as referred to often above, SNRIs, tricyclics, and etc.

    The neuroleptics or antispchotics as you describe them work by seriously interfering with serotonin transmission, it is believed. I don’t share the same rosy view of them as you do. In many ways, they are a chemical lobotomy.

    I dispute your theory about why pychiatric hospitals got emptied, and I believe the history is on my side.

    Neuroleptic use had largely filled up the hospitals by the 50s and 60s, being applied inappropriately to multiple classes of patients, and replacing poor houses of prior generations. This became expensives, and legislative jurisdictions around the world, at varying times, refused to fund this growing body of psychiatric patients, and moved many of them out in the community, often to the streets.

    You’re right that follow-on care is not what it might be.

    Random (4d8947)

  187. Penicillin has a “Black Box” warning that says if you are allergic to it and take it you may die. Firearms could have a black box label that says if you point a loaded one at someone and pull the trigger someone may get hurt. A car could have a warning that says driving in traffic can be hazardous (though a Volt would have a warning that says sitting still could be dangerous, and that your resell value will be like zero because they can’t sell new ways, except to companies like GE that make sweetheart deals with Obama- but I digress.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  188. The neuroleptics or antispchotics as you describe them work by seriously interfering with serotonin transmission, it is believed

    that would be dopamine

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  189. Fair enough Random, we shall agree to disagree.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  190. Somebody collected accounts of the medical benefits of smoking:

    Nice going, dumbass! You are of course a parody of anti-science conservatives. Good job, “Random” and Finkelstein. Morons.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  191. On the other hand, even a little bit of second hand smoke, or air pollution, can trigger heart attacks in the right people.

    Well yeah, probably, but I wouldn’t call it statistically a high risk (although I hate second hand smoke). It probably cause more problems by setting children up for long term respiratory issues, and worse, smoking themselves.

    But as a pollutant, your average fireplace produces a lot more toxins, and some are of a diameter that they float around indoors for weeks even.

    Then there was indoor burning of coal … and don’t get me started on municipal horses.

    In short, it’s hard to get much cleaner than modern, western energy production, including clean coal.

    Random (4d8947)

  192. that would be dopamine

    lol

    Yes. I stand corrected.

    Random (4d8947)

  193. Nice going, dumbass! You are of course a parody of anti-science conservatives. Good job, “Random” and Finkelstein. Morons.

    Uptwinkles

    JD (318f81)

  194. Penicillin has a “Black Box” warning that says if you are allergic to it and take it you may die.

    Antidepresssants obviously don’t kill everyone who takes them. But, they hardly work all the time either. There is some risk, and quite a bit of side effects, for most often quite modest benefit, some of the time.

    And the model that is explained to patients is not actually how they work, according to medical textbooks and journals.

    I argued for informed consent, and science-based alternatives to be presented, not banning.

    Random (4d8947)

  195. Jazz Hands.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  196. Idiots like “Random” and Finklestein should require a black box warning.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  197. I just want to add, since I noted skepticism above: someone I care about has recovered enormously from serious psychiatric problems thanks largely to medicine.

    Psychiatry has got to be such a difficult field that a lot of the science turns out to be wrong all the time (this is an assumption rather than an observation), but I’ve seen that field and modern chemistry save someone.

    And I’m pretty sure there were some risks involved. You gotta do the best you can with the tools you find.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  198. Ed Schultz is a good candidate for anti-psychotics

    JD (318f81)

  199. carlitos, you are a facile jackass, and have never risen above that.

    The good doctor corrected me on one thing, which I basically knew, but wasn’t front and center. I made an error. He has, I will concede, far more medical knowledge.

    However.

    Doctors are not infallible and it is routine for treatments to be found to be more harmful than originally predicted and advertised. This is as common with psychiatric drugs and treatments (lobotomy anyone — say what you will about Breggin, he fought hard to stop that from coming back, and I hope we’d agree that is a good thing).

    I have not once on this thread said no one is ever helped by SSRIs and other antidepressants. I said, in fact, some probably are.

    But there are more risks than is widely understood, they are only a little more effective than placebo, they increase, compared to placebo, subsequent depression rates, and they have numerous side effects, including increased suicidal ideation and, unlike what people are told, sexual side effects in most, according to after-market studies.

    Informed consent, and not being lied to about the mode of action for the drugs, is not too much to ask.

    They DO disorder thinking too in many people. This is well known and isn’t seriously in dispute. They not infrequently lead to a secondary diagnosis of mania, which itself can lead to suicide attempts in previously depressed people.

    I don’t think MD in Philly would dispute much of that.

    Random (4d8947)

  200. And the model that is explained to patients is not actually how they work, according to medical textbooks and journals.

    I argued for informed consent,

    Informed consent in medicine is a wonderful concept when not thought about very intently. When you realize you are asking someone with at least 7-8 years of full time education in a field of expertise to to explain something in a meaningful way to someone without that training than it becomes very problematic. How much informed consent should someone be given before getting on an airplane? How much explanation should I get from my car mechanic on different designs of brakes.

    I’m all for informing patients, spent more time at it than my bosses liked. No way I’m going to spend an hour talking about different neurotransmitters and how they interact and what is pre-synaptic vs. post-synaptic.

    Of course antidepressants are not 100% effective, of course they work better in conjunction with psychotherapy, and psychotherapy works better in conjunction with meds, and both work better with a personal trainer and someone to help keep the house and take care of the kids.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  201. The Apprenticeship
    of Young Sammy Finkleman
    pass the brain candy

    Colonel Haiku (fddb79)

  202. Psychiatry has got to be such a difficult field that a lot of the science turns out to be wrong all the time (this is an assumption rather than an observation), but I’ve seen that field and modern chemistry save someone.

    One problem is it’s hard to get repeatable diagnoses. It isn’t like there are blood tests for it.

    You can see 5 psychiatrists and get 7 diagnoses. Studies have shown this.

    The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual used to diagnose and be reimbursed by insurance providers changes too, by being voted on.

    It isn’t the most scientific method of defining “diseases”, but that’s what they got.

    Random (4d8947)

  203. “Random” – you are a moron. You cite Scientology-addled idiots instead of scientists and facts. No one gives a shit about your opinion on anti-depressants.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  204. Note how the moron called “Random” puts diseases in scare quotes. That’s because she’s a moron who doesn’t believe in germ theory.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  205. You are glib, Random. Glib.

    JD (318f81)

  206. Informed consent in medicine is a wonderful concept when not thought about very intently. When you realize you are asking someone with at least 7-8 years of full time education in a field of expertise to to explain something in a meaningful way to someone without that training than it becomes very problematic.

    Not really. It isn’t really known how they work. Just say that. Rather than use drug company charts that willfully mislead people.

    Everyone is convinced depression is a “chemical imbalance” disease and it’s hardly that simple. It also fosters reliance on pills as opposed to other methods proven equally or more effective at overcoming depression: exercise, talk psychotherapy, interpersonal therapy, sometimes diet, etc.

    Of course, it’s in the drug companies interest to do this, but they shouldn’t be allowed to lie about the mechanism of action in doing so.

    Random (4d8947)

  207. “Note how the moron called “Random” puts diseases in scare quotes. That’s because she’s a moron who doesn’t believe in germ theory.”

    There isn’t one emotional state that’s natural one everyone ought to have. There are multiple states. Psychiatry medicalizes a lot of human experiences and normal, if unpleasant, reactions to bad life things.

    Random (4d8947)

  208. it’s a sick, sick world
    and it is getting sicker
    ev’ry passing day

    Colonel Haiku (fddb79)

  209. Last comment since I am really, really over my time allotment.

    I come to a site like Patterico here in part because I don’t even know enough law to know what the right questions are. One of the problems of a technologically advanced society is there are always more and more things that fewer and fewer people understand, so it is easy to pull one over on people.

    Looking through this thread, it appears that speculation on the role of antidepressants in the disappearance of Michelle Malkin’s cousin. I would first point out that people who are prescribed antidepressants are often, you know, depressed, and depression is a potentially fatal disease. And besides, lots of bad things sometimes happen to people, including (especially?) young women that causes them to disappear that do not involve suicide or depression.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  210. Citing quacky quack quackers who spew quackery lends little credence to you anti-science ranting.

    JD (318f81)

  211. Looking through this thread, it appears that speculation on the role of antidepressants in the disappearance of Michelle Malkin’s cousin. I would first point out that people who are prescribed antidepressants are often, you know, depressed, and depression is a potentially fatal disease. And besides, lots of bad things sometimes happen to people, including (especially?) young women that causes them to disappear that do not involve suicide or depression.

    You’re not pointing out anything that I didn’t point out.

    It’s like Andrew Breitbart’s death and his friend’s video critiquing Breitbart’s lifestyle. We don’t even know the cause of death for sure yet.

    Regardless, there may be some value in pointing Andrew burned the candle at both ends, had been diagnosed with heart problems, and didn’t relax much.

    Michelle brought up the possibility of Marizela having performed suicide, and it is a regrettable possibility. It is by no means certain that even if she did that, antidepressants played a role. But there is solid evidence they may have, particularly in someone her age, which is whom the warning is targeted at.

    Random (4d8947)

  212. ^out

    Random (4d8947)

  213. Citing quacky quack quackers who spew quackery lends little credence to you anti-science ranting.

    Comment by JD — 3/5/2012 @ 7:49 pm

    Go give Michael Mann a hummer, and finish up with offering another to Phil Jones.

    Anyway, he’s a credentialed many-times peer-reviewed published doctor with a valid medical license, whose testimony has been accepted as expert before Congress and elsewhere, not that makes a damn bit of difference to the underlying science, much of which has been cited here.

    Do you think, out of curiosity, that the warning about SSRIs increasing suicidal ideation for young people was added “just because”?

    Did they go, “Wow, Breggin wants it in, so it’s in like Flynn”?

    That’s rhetorical. Don’t answer it, dummy.

    Random (4d8947)

  214. Life is not a psychiatric condition. I had a psychiatrist, his three residents and two students foisted on me in rehab. A psychologist, ditto. I didn’t ask for either. They were both foisted on me by the medicine teams’ protocols.

    I left rehab with prescriptions for an SSRI and morphine on the same prescription form. If I wanted to commit suicide, there was my package (cf. Anna Nicole Smith’s son).

    Doctors.

    nk (dec503)

  215. Mann and Jones are the AGW equivalents of Breggin and that other quack you cite.

    JD (318f81)

  216. I would first point out that people who are prescribed antidepressants are often, you know, depressed, and depression is a potentially fatal disease.

    True. Frankly, I don’t like medicine being used for such diseases. Sometimes that’s the least bad option. That’s the way of a lot of medicine, though.

    It isn’t the most scientific method of defining “diseases”, but that’s what they got.

    Comment by Random

    A mind is very personal, and describing one’s mind as working wrong strikes a nerve in me. But if you think about it, why wouldn’t a mind be susceptible to problems like your liver or your bones are? And if it had a problem, why wouldn’t the condition be what psychiatrists are treating?

    Given how complex the brain is, it’s predictable that it’s not easy and precise. Yet some genius out there saved that person I mentioned by figuring out something with chemical balances or whatever (I tried to understand it and gave up). The results speak for themselves.

    Another big issue in medicine is its urgency. We wind up using all kinds of things we don’t really understand because we’ve found out it produces a 33% less chance of x,y,z. This is OK.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  217. Random – Do you have any medical or psychiatric training?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  218. Schultz is a straight news man

    – Bwa-ha-ha-ha-haaaaa!!!

    Not a straight-news man, not a straight newsman, not a straight news man, not a straight news man, not a straight news man.

    Icy (a53438)

  219. “Breaking news – Obama has cancelled the G8 Summit! My May is going to be much more relaxed.”

    carlitos – He moved it to Camp David. NATO Summit stays. Protestors say they will protest that.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  220. Schultz is a straight news man

    – Bwa-ha-ha-ha-haaaaa!!!

    I completely missed that.

    JD (318f81)

  221. Btwe, in this moment of supreme sensitivity to female sensibilities, guess who they pick to emcee the White House Correspondence Dinner, if you say Bill Maher, you’re close, the foul mouthed Louis C.K,

    narciso (87e966)

  222. Has anybody thought about the idea that Ritalin may be the reason that fewer males are going to college and now women college students outnumber men?
    It’s that bad.
    Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 3/5/2012 @ 6:40 pm

    – This is the best comment that you have ever made.

    Or ever will.

    Icy (a53438)

  223. I just read that narciso. Political correctness always backfires.

    I think it was that Alinsky chap that said “hold them to their words” or some crap.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  224. Personally, I think the Occupy movement and all the anarchists that love to protest the G8 should set up their protest at Camp David.

    I would like to see that.

    I mean, I don’t like the current President too much, but I will give him props for this.

    A lefty-on-lefty death match would be superb.

    As to the rest of this thread, it seems random.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  225. Personally, I think the Occupy movement and all the anarchists that love to protest the G8 should set up their protest at Camp David.

    I would like to see that.

    I mean, I don’t like the current President too much, but I will give him props for this.

    A lefty-on-lefty death match would be superb.

    As to the rest of this thread, it seems random.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  226. Random – Do you have any medical or psychiatric training?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 3/5/2012 @ 8:05 pm

    No.

    But the sources I cited have plenty.

    I’m sure the FDA has some too.

    Let’s boil down this to it’s simplest essence, and strip away many peripheral issues.

    Michelle said she fears suicide may have been the case, and said Marizela was taking antidepressants. The most commonly prescribed antidepressants carry a relatively new FDA-mandated “black box” warning that they increase suicidal ideation and behavior for people Marizela’s age.

    “In response, the FDA adopted a “black box” label warning indicating that antidepressants may increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in some children and adolescents with MDD. A black-box warning is the most serious type of warning in prescription drug labeling.”

    Further:

    For more than 15 years drug companies, the psychiatric establishment – including the American Psychiatric Association, the National Institute of Mental Health – and the FDA denied the link between antidepressants and increased suicide.

    But the evidence from controlled clinical trials and post-marketing case reports is overwhelming: children and adolescents who were prescribed an antidepressant were twice as likely to become suicidal compared to those given a placebo. Furthermore, the drugs showed no clinically significan benefit beyone placebo.

    Although the focus, thus far, has centered on the suicide risk for children under 18, FDA’s warning for antidepressants applies to adults and children. Evidence exists demonstrating a suicide link to these drugs in adults as well.

    Pointing this out so people are aware is a good thing, considering that the describes are often prescribed to suicidal or depressed people in the first place.

    My being a dual biochemistry PhD/MD wouldn’t change any of that, nor would it matter if I had never been to school.

    It is what it is.

    Random (5b7dde)

  227. Sorry about the double-post. I have no idea how that happened.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  228. Getting tired typo, as opposed to iPhone induced typo here:

    Pointing this out so people are aware is a good thing, considering that the describe drugs are often prescribed to suicidal or depressed people in the first place (and they don’t work significantly better than placebo in the first place, and they significantly boost suicidal ideation: this is kind of a big deal).

    Random (5b7dde)

  229. It’s the Radio and TV Correspondent’s Dinner, well just like with former NSA procurement officer, Wanda Sykes, all’s far right

    narciso (87e966)

  230. Random – Do you have any medical or psychiatric training?

    Comment by daleyrocks — 3/5/2012 @ 8:05 pm

    But then, my whole point here is that psychiatry should (be abolished or) return to its roots, which is as a non-medical profession. This changed only in the 1950s with the introduction of neuroleptics (i.e., antipsychotics), giving people chemical lobotomies (at least at high enough dosages) by interfering with dopamine.

    I’m saying we don’t know enough about medicine to fix the brain with any degree of certainty. Antidepressants are certainly suspect, considering they perform at about the same rate as placebo, boost suicidality, and come with > 50% prevalence sexual side effects, according to user surveys.

    Random (5b7dde)

  231. But then, my whole point here is that psychiatry should (be abolished or) return to its roots, which is as a non-medical profession.

    That sure sounds like Scientology propaganda. Have you ever heard the story of Xenu (or Xemu even)?

    Noodles (3681c4)

  232. For someone that isn’t a Scientologist, Mr Random certainly knows how to talk the talk.

    Icy (a53438)

  233. Random:

    OK, you don’t like psychiatry. I think we get the point.

    And this has what to do with Rush and Carbonite?

    There’s a Shakespeare quote that may apply here. What is it? It’s not the one about lawyers or the double-backed beast, but I can’t quite put my finger on it.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  234. Well anyway, he was the dictator of the “Galactic Confederacy” who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of his people to Earth in a DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and killed them using hydrogen bombs.

    Again, I could care less what people want to believe in but Scientology doesn’t tell them their core scriptures until they have spent years and many thousands of dollars (or labor) with the church.

    If you hadn’t heard that before, I might have saved you a lot of money.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  235. Ah, I remember: The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  236. But then, my whole point here is that psychiatry should (be abolished or) return to its roots, which is as a non-medical profession. This changed only in the 1950s with the introduction of neuroleptics (i.e., antipsychotics), giving people chemical lobotomies (at least at high enough dosages) by interfering with dopamine.

    I’m saying we don’t know enough about medicine to fix the brain with any degree of certainty. Antidepressants are certainly suspect, considering they perform at about the same rate as placebo, boost suicidality, and come with > 50% prevalence sexual side effects, according to user surveys.

    Comment by Random

    We can’t just abolish fields of science because they didn’t get everything right. It’s not like we can just say ‘hey, sorry Schizophrenics… psychology is imperfect so you’re SOL’

    You do seem to be tossing in a lot of soundbite type points, too.

    And I’m also saying you are wrong. You said we don’t know enough medically to fix brains… I already pointed out that I’ve seen that exact thing happen. It happens all the time. It also sometimes doesn’t go as planned. Sometimes the breast cancer patient dies under chemo. Sometimes the kid goes into shock when they give him some antibiotic.

    We can’t just wait for Star Trek tricorders, and we won’t have any anyhow if we don’t trudge through our imperfect understanding.

    Comment by Noodles — 3/5/2012 @ 8:55 pm

    I don’t think someone who has these talking points is necessarily a scientologist, but it’s my understanding that explaining the origin story of Scientology to ‘deprogram’ a Scientologist often backfires, as they think paying attention to this information too early will kill them… they wind up getting much more combative.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  237. But then, my whole point here is that psychiatry should (be abolished or) return to its roots, which is as a non-medical profession.

    All right, now I know you’re an ignorant mouth-frother. Psychiatry’s roots are neurology. Freud was a student of Charcot’s.

    nk (dec503)

  238. If this person is a Scientologist spreading pro-scieno stuff on the internet they are most likely OT3 or above (so they know the story).

    Scientology has them self censor their internet. Crazy, but true.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  239. I think you pretty much know, Dustin, that I’m an atheist, not that it matters with a tinkers darn about the underlying science. I am quite unconcerned about admitting that L. Ron Hubbard was a lying con artist and that I’ll take Heinlein or Clarke or Chrichton or even, God help me, George Lucas for science fiction.

    I’m pretty sure a scientologist is not allowed to write that.

    But … he’s right herenot so much here … and he’s dead wrong here.

    As a practical matter, you can’t really abolish it, certainly not willy nilly, with so many people using these drugs.

    So I’ll settle for better informed consent, and hopefully, no forced assaults on people by chemical, electrical, or surgical means.

    I don’t abide by that. It’s against the Constitution.

    Random (f9e702)

  240. Of course, he extrapolated the rather damaged folk in his practice, to the wider world, instead of assuming they were the anomaly, but that has little to do with Thetans

    narciso (87e966)

  241. Freud was a student of Charcot’s.

    Freud’s prescribing (and taking) cocaine for depression sure worked out well.

    Random (f9e702)

  242. Random – From your link:

    “On average, 2 percent to 3 percent of children taking antidepressants have increased suicidal thoughts, independent experts, working with Columbia University, found.”

    Don’t you even read your material?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  243. Random:

    Go ahead and reveal your last card. We know you hate psychiatry and you’re playing to an audience.

    What’s the end-game? What’s the point?

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  244. “considering they perform at about the same rate as placebo”

    Random – FDA says BS:

    “Approximately 60 to 70 percent of patients respond to the first antidepressant that is prescribed or to an increased dosage of that drug, according to Mathis.”

    “In my experience as a practicing psychiatrist, I’ve seen that many people with depression don’t realize that they have the condition or that it’s treatable,” says Mitchell Mathis, M.D., deputy director of the Division of Psychiatry Products at the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  245. All right, now I know you’re an ignorant mouth-frother. Psychiatry’s roots are neurology. Freud was a student of Charcot’s.

    Oh, for goodness sakes. Freud is one guy. And he said this:

    “The first consideration is that in his medical school a doctor receives a training which is more or less the opposite of what he would need as a preparation for psycho-analysis …. Neurotics, indeed, are an undesired complication, an embarrassment as much to therapeutics as to jurisprudence and to military service. But they exist and are a particular concern of medicine. Medical education, however, does nothing, literally nothing, towards their understanding and treatment. … It would be tolerable if medical education merely failed to give doctors any orientation in the field of the neuroses. But it does more: it given them a false and detrimental attitude. …analytic instruction would include branches of knowledge which are remote from medicine and which the doctor does not come across in his practice: the history of civilization, mythology, the psychology of religion and the science of literature. Unless he is well at home in these subjects, an analyst can make nothing of a large amount of his material. By way of compensation, the great mass of what is taught in medical schools is of no use to him for his purposes. A knowledge of the anatomy of the tarsal bones, of the constitution of the carbohydrates, of the course of the cranial nerves, a grasp of all that medicine has brought to light on bacillary exciting causes of disease and the means of combating them, on serum reactions and on neoplasms – all of this knowledge, which is undoubtedly of the highest value in itself, is nevertheless of no consequence to him; it does not concern him; it neither helps him directly to understand a neurosis and to cure it nor does it contribute to a sharpening of those intellectual capacities on which his occupation makes the greatest demands. … It is unjust and inexpedient to try to compel a person who wants to set someone else free from the torment of a phobia or an obsession to take the roundabout road of the medical curriculum. Nor will such an endeavor have any success…”

    Yes, it’s the first time I’ve read that, and yes, it’s from an antipsychiatry website, but so what? That’s what Freud wrote in The Question of Lay Analysis.

    So he knew something about neurology. Cool, dude. And?

    Does a doctor with a bachelor in the arts make endocrinology literature?

    The fact is, with the development of lobotomy, electric shocks, and psychiatric drugs, psychiatry changed its focus.

    A lot.

    You know this, personally.

    Random (f9e702)

  246. I think you pretty much know, Dustin, that I’m an atheist

    I believe you.

    I disagree with you about how to best approach mental problems. And God, FWIW. I guess I’m just more prone to accept a little faith in both cases.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  247. Ag80 – Could it be this?

    About the Alliance for Human Research Protection

    Mission Statement

    The Alliance for Human Research Protection (AHRP) is a national network of lay people and professionals dedicated to advancing responsible and ethical medical research practices, to minimizing the risks associated with such endeavors and to ensuring that the human rights, dignity and welfare of human subjects are protected

    Board of Directors

    This year, more than 15 million Americans will be recruited into clinical trials.

    The AHRP mission is to stand up – and speak out – for the human rights of research subjects – especially those who are vulnerable and /or susceptible to coercion, manipulation and exploitation. Those who are incapable of exercising their right to informed consent are in greatest need of protection from research abuse

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  248. Just in case somebody missed it, Random is an atheist.

    Icy (e7b40c)

  249. What’s the end-game? What’s the point?

    To save people’s lives and help them keep the quality of their lives, and their autonomy.

    Random (f9e702)

  250. I’ll admit I am watching this thread mostly for amusement. Keeping that in mind, I would like to note that The Ramones could have written 2 whole albums with random words from most of the things copy and pasted here. =)

    Noodles (3681c4)

  251. daley:

    I can buy that, but it still doesn’t answer random’s obsession on posting in a subject about Rush and his sponsors.

    You know, whatever.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  252. The AHRP mission is to stand up – and speak out – for the human rights of research subjects – especially those who are vulnerable and /or susceptible to coercion, manipulation and exploitation. Those who are incapable of exercising their right to informed consent are in greatest need of protection from research abuse.

    I don’t know a lot about them, but that sounds good to me.

    The first relevant link in that same comment about the same thing was from the National Institute for Mental Health, of course, part of NIH.

    Random (f9e702)

  253. I guess I’m just more prone to accept a little faith in both cases.

    Both religion, and some psychiatric drugs, operate on faith (placebo effect).

    :P

    Random (f9e702)

  254. Someone needs to take a Xanax…and a little nap.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  255. To save people’s lives and help them keep the quality of their lives, and their autonomy.
    Comment by Random — 3/5/2012 @ 9:35 pm

    The Ramones could have written 2 whole albums with random words from most of the things copy and pasted here.

    Au-ton-o-my!
    Au-ton-o-my!

    Icy (e7b40c)

  256. lol Xanax increases death rates. Be careful.

    But give me a couple. ;) /kidding

    Random (f9e702)

  257. “I don’t know a lot about them, but that sounds good to me.”

    Random – One of your links was from them.

    They sound like a Scientology front group.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  258. They sound like a Scientology front group.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 3/5/2012 @ 9:57 pm

    I agree. They kind of do sound like a scientology front group, although I don’t think they are because I googled their acronym and scientology at the time, and nothing came up. Usually it would. Lots of people trying to expose scientology in various ways.

    I think they’re probably just a patient-centered rights group of some variety.

    That’s why I first included a link the the governments NIH/NIMH site. Said basically the same thing, and is as mainstream as you could get.

    I am dubious about the “doubling” of suicidal behavior, frankly. Not sure on that. They linked several articles in the mainstream press including WSJ so who knows?

    But the main point is there is a significant increase in suicidality, so much so the FDA issued their highest written warning about it, for young people … and evidence it affects others.

    Pretty big deal, considering who the drug is prescribed for.

    Random (f9e702)

  259. Random reminds me of those 9/11 Truthers who occasionally visit. A lot of words, no substance.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  260. I said my piece and I’m sticking to it. Depressed people sometimes kill themselves. Depressed people are sometimes so depressed they don’t have the energy to kill themselves. getting better puts them at a “paradoxically” increased risk of suicide. This has been known since before 1980. Before Prozac came out, it would have been considered malpractice to give a depressed person more than 1 weeks worth of meds to start with, maybe 2 weeks of mes at low dose with plans for F/U within a week. That changed with “safer” drugs such as Prozac.
    nk may have done himself in with enough morphine, the SSRI not so much, and didn’t have the more dangerous stuff that Nicole did, if I remember correctly- hypnotics I haven’t seen used in 25 years.

    Daleyrocks info has been my experience as a physician, roughly 1/3 are new people, 1/3 are better, 1/3 don’t have a significant immediate improvement. many people have a positive benefit then prematurely quite and lapse back, some improve and do not do other things with “taking stock of life”, etc. Many who do not have a good response quit before they’ve had an adequate trial.

    A person has trouble with temper, gets angry, hits wall, breaks hand. The person will get an evaluation for the broken bones, likely a cast or splint, some medication for pain, maybe a different medication for severe pain (sleep is good, up all night with pain, bad), if bad scrape maybe antibiotic for infection.
    In addition to all that, the person needs to work on anger.

    You don’t say, “Don’t get angry” and do nothing else, you don’t put arm in a cast and wait for him to need other hand casted doing it again, you treat the problem on multiple levels.

    And the comment about fewer boys in college because of Ritalin use makes me po’ed. I’ve seen more kids who would have done well in college but never made it because of not taking Ritalin than kids whose academics were interfered with.

    Too much hogwash, especially on a thread where it’s not the topic.

    Back to topic. Rush works with his audience #1 in mind, he turns down more advertisers than he can use. he made a mistake in bringing attention to the story and wish he had done it different.

    Rush is a bigger man than those who say worse things, for less reason, and who don’t apologize.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  261. “I googled their acronym and scientology at the time, and nothing came up.”

    Random – Try their name and Scientology. Plenty comes up.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  262. Well, fair enough, daleyrocks.

    1. They’re entitled to their opinion.
    2. There’s a reason I also included the link to NIMH.

    Random (f9e702)

  263. “Random reminds me of those 9/11 Truthers who occasionally visit. A lot of words, no substance.”

    Well, except for the linking to NIMH, FDA, and mainly peer-reviewed literature thing.

    Random (f9e702)

  264. Random – My thinking is that is you had any persuasive arguments or facts that you would have used them by now. Repeating the same unpersuasive things over and over does does not make them more persuasive.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  265. ack to topic. Rush works with his audience #1 in mind, he turns down more advertisers than he can use. he made a mistake in bringing attention to the story and wish he had done it different.

    Rush is a bigger man than those who say worse things, for less reason, and who don’t apologize.

    I agree. I do think the liberals can do some damage, but at the end of the day, Rush’s product has a lot of listeners. I can’t think of a more desirable radio program from the POV of advertisers.

    I guess libs don’t need advertisers for their NPR programs.

    Well, except for the linking to NIMH, FDA, and mainly peer-reviewed literature thing.

    Comment by Random

    Actually that does resemble a truther argument. Truthers would often refuse to discuss the issue while making grandiose appeals to authority… even though that authority is clearly fringe and thus a strange basis.

    And often the truther makes a point of just making sure the issue is on everyone’s screen even if they don’t want to talk about it.

    It seems this issue has been discussed to death.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  266. Dustin, I am neither afraid to talk about the issue nor are those fringe sources. It isn’t the same thing at all.

    To start with, the FBI doesn’t have “Be Aware of Thermite” signs all over the God damn place.

    Random (38d59c)

  267. Off Topic: I posted this on the 404 thread but my comment thing at the top didn’t show up. Anyway, AB’s last interview. Talks about O’keffe and swattings.

    http://townhall.com/talkradio/hughhewitt/635515

    Noodles (3681c4)

  268. Last check
    As said, repeating unpersuasive things. many drugs have black box warnings and are used all of the time. penicillin, sulfa drugs, etc.

    A warning label of any kind anywhere says : Know what you are doing.

    This is a law blog. If antidepressants were as bad as you suggest the companies making them would have been litigated out of existence by now.

    G’night.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  269. “Well, except for the linking to NIMH, FDA, and mainly peer-reviewed literature thing.”

    Random – Which didn’t say what you claimed it said, so you’ve got that going for you.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  270. Off Topic

    – Does anyone remember the topic?

    Icy (e7b40c)

  271. Not necessarily related to any previous discussion and any inferences drawn are the reader’s own responsibility:

    There are psychiatric patients who become personally offended by their diagnosis and respond by attacking psychiatry as a discipline. They look for any shred of plausible (not credible) evidence to support their claims and declare them authoritative evidence that psychiatry is unreliable.

    While still imperfect, the combinations of individual/group/milieu/pharmacologic therapy are effective for the vast majority of true mental illnesses. When you get into the Axis II diagnoses (personality disorders), not so much. This is because these behaviors are conditioned responses of a longstanding nature. It takes a very long time to undo the habits of a lifetime. What is a valid coping skill in most people has become a maladaptive behavior that impacts nearly every area of the person’s life.

    Depression and psychosis are usually treatable, best done with a combination of medication and therapy (preferably group before an inpatient stay becomes necessary) and close monitoring during treatment.

    Many people can take antidepressants for 6-12 months and never need them again. Others, as was alluded to above, are just having a normal reaction to an abnormal situation and may not need antidepressants at all. Some people may need them for life. Unfortunately, you can’t always tell which is which.

    Probably my only comment on this. Back to getting caught up while I have the energy.

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  272. “Approximately 60 to 70 percent of patients respond to the first antidepressant that is prescribed or to an increased dosage of that drug, according to Mathis.”

    Look at me
    I’m as helpless as a kitten up a tree
    never knowing my right foot from my left
    My hat from my glove
    I get misty
    I too much of what the doctor ordered

    Colonel Haiku (f2b4ef)

  273. Stashiu3 – Thanks for the summary. Pretty much exactly what the lit that Random doesn’t read says.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  274. WIKILEAKED: BIN LADEN BODY NOT BURIED AT SEA!

    They fed him to the pigs!

    Colonel Haiku (f2b4ef)

  275. Editorial | November 01, 2006
    How Can We Know Whether Antidepressants Increase Suicide Risk?
    Gregory E. Simon
    Am J Psychiatry 2006;163:1861-1863. 10.1176/appi.ajp.163.11.1861

    “Using data from all placebo-controlled antidepressant trials in children and adolescents, Hammad and colleagues at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) found that risk of suicidal ideation and suicidal behavior was nearly twice as high during treatment with several newer antidepressants compared with placebo.”
    Hammad T, Laughren T, Racoosin J: Suicidality in pediatric patients treated with antidepressant drugs. Arch Gen Psychiatry 2006; 63:332—339

    Random (38d59c)

  276. btw, Scientology is not incompatible with Atheism.

    Scientology is not a religion. But of course that doesn’t mean everyone who criticizes psychology more than seems justified is a Scientologist. Some people just march to the beat of a different drum.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  277. Point and laugh.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  278. Random’s reading list:

    The Antipsychiatry Coalition – http://antipsychiatry.org/

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  279. I held a Schizophrenic back when that person tried to jump out of a moving car. Antipsychitry.org’s claim the disease doesn’t even exist is incorrect.

    It doesn’t piss me off because I think Stashiu’s comment explains a lot of this and some of these folks are ill.

    That website has a large number of irrational arguments. Advances in understanding are treated as contradictions, for example ‘they say they know now that it’s an organic disease, but they used to think it was x,y,z, therefore it doesn’t even exist.’

    Also, the obsession with repeatedly beating this dead horse is annoying. It’s true that Michelle’s relative disappeared and was on medication. It’s just information. Being offended at the good faith implications of that information is not the best way to handle it.

    I don’t think Random is a troll or intending to be dishonest, but this whole series of arguments is stupid.

    No one is saying that psychiatry is perfect.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  280. What Rush Limbaugh said was terrible – but not important. It just wafted away. What is imnportant is the advertisers quitting, and it is pretty serious. These are imnportant advertisers.

    Carbonite. Sleep number beds. Stamps.com

    It doesn’t matter that it’s not enough to affect Rush Limbaugh. They also don’t want people to listen to him and they don’t want people to repeat what he says.

    Liberals were always against this kind of advertisong pressure whether it was the anti-Communist blacklisting of the 1950s or putting pressure aaginst people who produced televions shows with lots of violence in it. Now you have bpeople doing this.

    The lesson that people will draw is not “don’t personally insult people” but “don’t contradict left wing truth”

    It’s pretty hard to speak for hours on the radio and not say bad things.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  281. That’s right, Sammy. For one thing, this sends a loud and clear message to those who aren’t as major as Rush. Those who really do need whatever sponsors they can get.

    And you’re right about what the lesson is. These sponsors are proud to support insulters. They just won’t support those who use them to challenge a leftist narrative.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  282. This is a law blog. If antidepressants were as bad as you suggest the companies making them would have been litigated out of existence by now.

    No. The drug companies don’t get sued because, first of all the lawyers have to believe it, so that limits the number of people who might even think of it, and secondly the basis of a lawsuit would be one version or another of malpractice (or fraud).

    They have to know they are doing wrong or be in a position where they should have known. Continuing self-interest is not enough. Malpractice is doing something below the standard of care. Malpractie is taking the place of soemoine who would be better. If everybody does it, if most educated in the system make teh same mistake, it;s not malpractice. I don’t know that anybody was ever sued for performing any kind of now medically discredited treatments even lobotomies. Of course in earlier years it was harder to sue

    A drug company could also be sued foir fraud. Now
    makers of individual drugs have been sued, but it would be very hard to sue anyone on the basis that a whole class of drugs was no good.

    And they are all approved by the FDA, which is 95% protection in itself. To overcome FDA approvbal, I think you’d have to show fraud. Which even if it exists, is hard to know about.

    Lawyers also sue on the wrong grounds. Take vaccines and autism. If any vaccine causes autism it would be because autism is an auto-immune disorder, that can be triggered in people with the right HLA’s when they get vaccinbations, in combinations with the right infections.

    This is no good for the lawyers.

    First, Congress, around 1986, limited the liability for vaccines for anything caused by teh vaccine itself (because some people unquestionably do get harmed – some people get pilio from the polio vaccine. So the law was passed.)

    So the lawyers came up with a theory that mercury or other contamination caused the autism. And there was a false scientific study too.

    The truth wouldn’t help them. The claims taht claims of a vaccine autism link have been disprioven are not true what has been disproven is a wrong theory as to how. What we need to do is find out which vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (d22d64)

  283. “No one is saying that psychiatry is perfect.”

    Dustin – Random just wants to roll it back to the 1950s via unsupported assertions. I call that trolling.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  284. I call that trolling.

    In this case I definitely understand where you’re coming from. Doesn’t really matter to me what the motives are. Random’s argument is not more persuasive just because it is repeated over and over.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  285. “No. The drug companies don’t get sued because, first of all the lawyers have to believe it, so that limits the number of people who might even think of it, and secondly the basis of a lawsuit would be one version or another of malpractice (or fraud).”

    Sammy – Think about other mass tort lawsuits. The lawyers go after everybody in the chain of handling the product, from manufacturer through distributor down to retailer.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  286. “In this case I definitely understand where you’re coming from.”

    Dustin – I’m not arguing with you. You know where my comments are directed.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  287. Lord knows we’ve NEVER seen things repeated over and over and over again on this forum!

    Serenity now!

    Colonel Haiku (f2b4ef)

  288. Dustin – I’m not arguing with you. You know where my comments are directed.

    Comment by daleyrocks

    Oh, I know. No misunderstanding here.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  289. “And they are all approved by the FDA, which is 95% protection in itself.”

    Sammy – FDA approval may provide comfort as a defense, but it is absolutely no bar to litigation.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  290. Are you people fucking stupid or something?

    1. Daleyrocks said I didn’t prove the doubling of suicidal ideation behavior with reference to the NIMH article on the lable and the advocy group’s claim of same. So I found the source they were using (the FDA) and cited it. Hence the repetition.
    2. You really don’t think near-doubling of suicidal ideation vs. placebo for young people is a problem for antidepressants?

    Then you are dolts — as big dolts as the AGW cultists.

    [note: released from moderation. --Stashiu]

    Random (1f6dd4)

  291. Random, there’s no reason to take it personally.

    Also, you seem to be running over thoughtful discussions about suicide, which your argument does not address. You are instead being repetitive, which isn’t persuasive.

    I also don’t understand the devotion to this argument and your stated overarching view about abolishing a field of science. It’s over the top and just doesn’t come across any more reasonably than calling us big dolts.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  292. Comment by Random — 3/6/2012 @ 12:22 pm

    Wow. I’m persuaded. Guess I should find new work. ;)

    Stashiu3 (601b7d)

  293. Random will get back to us after his Mensa meeting.

    Icy (e7b40c)

  294. Carbonite shares down 8.7 percent today after its courageous decision to pull its ads. More here.

    /sarc

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (a18ddc)

  295. That’s pretty hilarious.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  296. “lol Xanax increases death rates.”

    Last time I checked the death rate was 100%, no matter what medications you take.

    It might help you with your little OCD problem, though, so that at least you’ll be a little more dialed in while you’re still here.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  297. Also, if the Xantax works, you won’t be boring me to death with your obsessive off topic ranting.

    And, that would be a good thing, as far as I’m concerned.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  298. Thanks for that, Bradley.

    It’s Carbonite’s right to endorse Ed Shultz’s ‘slut’ and reject Rush’s, which makes them a liberal advocacy company. And it’s my right to make sure I don’t fund their advocacy.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  299. “Carbonite shares down 8.7 percent today”

    And, if they do a faceplant, they’ll just get a bailout from their buddies in the Obama administration, so they really don’t have to worry about making bad business decisions.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  300. Dustin,
    Dr. Capt. Mike Kennedy tipped me off to the Carbonite pratfall.

    Limbaugh supporters have deserted Carbonite in droves. Unless the company gets a counterbalancing surge in new lefty subscribers, which is very unlikely, Carbonite has made the worst possible business decision.

    Plenty of other advertisers will fill the void left by the cancelling advertisers. It would serve them right if Rush never let them on again.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (5dd4eb)

  301. You really don’t think near-doubling of suicidal ideation vs. placebo for young people is a problem for antidepressants?

    We’ve already mentioned several times that when an antidepressant works the suicide risk can go up, because the person is “better” and has enough energy to do something. As with many things, one snapshot of fact, even if indeed a fact, can be misleading, hence the story of the elephant and the 4 (5, 6?) blind men.

    The answer is not to withhold medication from a person incapacitated by serious depression, but to be observant and vigilant in treating,

    Sammy, I wasn’t thinking of a suit against “antidepressant drug makers”, but against specific drugs, which has happened with FDA approved drugs.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  302. If Rush buys a load of “depressed” Carbonite stock before renewing an advertising contract, is that insider trading, just for curiosity sake?

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  303. Yes, they were ‘stuck on Stupid’ and that can’t be fized.

    narciso (87e966)

  304. If Rush buys a load of “depressed” Carbonite stock before renewing an advertising contract, is that insider trading, just for curiosity sake?

    Comment by MD in Philly — 3/6/2012 @ 9:33 pm

    Maybe, maybe not, but not worth the trouble. The reason I say “maybe, maybe not” is cause Congresscritters outperform the average investor by 200%. There’s gotta be a special rule there somewhere.

    nk (dec503)

  305. I don’t think so, unless he were to know they were indeed going to sponsor him again.

    Not long ago I was (for the first time in my life) in a position to possibly insider trade. What I knew never happened (and I never would have traded anyway) but it was interesting to ponder my own ethics against what our congress does daily.

    Noodles (3681c4)

  306. Limbaugh supporters have deserted Carbonite in droves.

    I’ve used IDrive for several years and am very happy with it. I especially like that I can set it NOT to begin deleting my 31st backup (some services like Mozy, not sure of Carbonite, will only keep the last 30 file versions).

    It’s economical too, for what you get, and as fast as your internet connection allows.

    Random (38d59c)

  307. “Sammy, I wasn’t thinking of a suit against “antidepressant drug makers”, but against specific drugs, which has happened with FDA approved drugs.”

    MD in Philly – All you have to do is look at the litigation section of a drug maker’s SEC filings to see that FDA approval of their products is not a shield to litigation.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  308. I don’t think Rush would have a duty of trust to Carbonite regarding whether he intends to sign back up with them.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  309. Rush sure didn’t sound like he’s eager to have Carbonite or the other cancelling advertisers back:

    Now they’ve chosen to deny themselves that access, and that’s a business decision, and it’s theirs alone to make.

    They’ve decided they don’t want you or your business anymore.

    So be it.

    Brother Bradley J. Fikes, C.O.R. (986fac)

  310. Insider trading can just mean that you’re a cabdriver who heard your two businessmen passengers talking, Dustin. Information not available to the general public.

    nk (dec503)

  311. I stand corrected.

    “material non public information”.

    I thought it was non public info for which there was some kind of duty to keep non public, but that was wrong.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  312. It wasn’t just today.
    Over the course of Monday AND Tuesday, Carbonite shares are down 11.73%. And do you know why? Because prior to Monday nobody knew what the political inclinations of Carbonite’s CEO were. It isn’t just the fact that the guy turned out to be an Obama supporter; it’s that he had made a contribution in the name of his company at all!

    Icy (a4ce3e)

  313. Bro. Bradley-

    I didn’t think he would be, I was just curious. I’m not typically in the company of people who would have such information.

    Yes, that congressional ability to do insider trading should be done away with, and everyone who votes to keep it should have their names writ large to get the boot. Just one example of society becoming less of laws and more of personal influence.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  314. 292. Mass torts involve a lot of clients, but there is no class action against defendants. They all have to be named individually, and they all have to have done something wrong (or be accused of that) and the case actually may be unsound but they are looking for a settlement and can get it maybe because

    The tobacco companies were sued, and the banks were sued, but they were accused either of fraud or of breaking the law.

    I don’t know if anyone has been sued for bad or even stupid science. There was a lawsuit about Vioxx. But there were specific allegations against that particular drug alone. There was no lawsuit against all makers of all Cox-2 inhibitors or non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agents, even if they all made similar mistakes. I think there are or were lawsuits contemplated or started against makers of other drugs, but no mass lawsuit against the makers of all COX-2 inhibitors and NSAIDs. If I am correct that at least some of the bad effects, especially the cardiovascular effects, are due to the trouble the body has synthesizing the right enzymes to clear it from the system, with the consequence that in the absence of some unknown nutrients important tissue is broken down, then a lot could depend on the exact chemical composition of the drug.

    If I understand correctly, mistakes anyway are not actionable. Fraud, neglect of duty, or incompetence (defined in comparison to others skilled in the art) is, and incompetence is only for people dealing with actual patients.

    There could maybe be one bad scientist at the heart and the start of it all, but only that person there could be sued unless other people knew, or had reason to believe, the science was unreliable. Because what is the grounds? And the original error, incredible stupidity, or even just plain deliberate misleading and outright fraud happened too many years ago. It’s hard to argue that there’s recklessness when there is such a big consensus and no major disputes, and they need to argue something like that at least. There’s no strict liability here I think.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1f34f)

  315. I heard Mark Levin advertising stamps.com on his radio show last night, shortly after 6 P.M.

    One thing I thought somebody could do, if they wanted to use it but also make the people in charge of that company feel bad, is enter RUSH and not something else as a code on their website.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1f34f)

  316. Sammy, it was Vioxx I was talking about. yes, it was a specific drug, and what I was thinking was if antidepressants were so bad in general, there must be at least one which would look like the most likely candidate to hit. As Vioxx was the only COX-2 or NSAID hit in that action, it caused quite a stir in considering using other COX-2 inhibitors.

    I appreciate your information and discussion. Remember, I may not even know as much law as that judge in Wisconsin talked about on the other thread, so any points/questions I raise need to be thought of in the context of someone who is not using precise legal terms.

    In my limited experience, if there is a lawyer and money to pay, a person/entity can get sued whether reason or not, and be ruled against, valid or not, if in Philadelphia (or in Wisconsin, if your name is Walker).

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  317. I came across this about two now three weeks ago:
    (about Feb 14)

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204795304577220993641557460.html

    You have to read it very very carefully, but you can deduce from that, in combination with some other knowledge, that there is good reason to believe vaccines can cause autism (but not of course in any way resembling the ways that have been claimed)

    Getting infected by a certain worm’s eggs pushes the immune system in some more standard direction, it helps against multiple sclerosis, Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis, which are auto-immune disorders, and probably against targeting rheumatoid arthritis, autism and some allergies. Autism is, therefore, like the other five, probably an immune system disorder, vaccines cause the immune system to go in certain directions, therefore vaccines, or some particular unknown vaccine, should be a very strong suspect as a cause of autism, especially since the number of vaccinations given to pre-school children has gone way up and so has autism.

    But if this is the cause, the amount of liability is limited by act of Congress passed in the 1980s, so lawyers have no interest in pursuing any idea like this because they can’t get big fees, and instead they invent lies, hoping there’s enough truth still remaining so that they can get big settlements.

    Sammy Finkelman (a1f34f)

  318. Rush: “Two of the sponsors who have cancelled have asked to return… one of them is practically begging,”

    I read this at Althouse.

    I wonder which one is begging?

    Dustin (401f3a)

  319. Sammy – From GlaxoSmithKline’s 2010 Annual Report, footnote 44:

    FDA Approved Avandia Diabetes Medication:

    “The Group has been named in product liability lawsuits on behalf
    of individuals asserting personal injury claims arising out of the use
    of Avandia. The federal cases are part of a multi-district litigation
    proceeding pending in the United States District Court for the
    Eastern District of Pennsylvania. Cases have also been filed in a
    number of state courts. Cases filed in state court in Philadelphia have
    been coordinated in the Mass Tort Program; cases in state court in
    California have been coordinated in Los Angeles.”

    Paxil:

    “The Group has received numerous lawsuits and claims alleging
    that use of Paxil (paroxetine) has caused a variety of injuries.
    Many of these lawsuits and claims allege that the use of Paxil
    during pregnancy resulted in the birth of a child with birth defects
    or health issues. Other lawsuits and claims allege that patients who
    took Paxil committed or attempted to commit suicide or acts of
    violence. Finally, a third group of lawsuits and claims allege that
    the use of Paxil caused patients to suffer symptoms on
    discontinuing treatment with Paxil.
    The Group has reached agreements to settle the vast majority of
    the US claims pending as of February 2011. Other matters have
    been dismissed without payment. Some lawsuits remain scheduled
    for trial, including nine cases scheduled for trial in the Philadelphia
    Mass Tort Program in May and June 2011 concerning use of Paxil
    during pregnancy. There remains purported class action litigation
    in Canada concerning use of Paxil during pregnancy.
    A California court granted plaintiffs’ motion to certify a class in a
    consumer fraud lawsuit seeking only economic damages, focused
    on discontinuation symptoms.”

    Lawyers only have to find the right angle or theory to file suit and drug makers are justifiably viewed as unsympathetic defendants with deep pockets.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  320. daley-

    Only briefly read what you wrote, but this jumped at me:

    Finally, a third group of lawsuits and claims allege that the use of Paxil caused patients to suffer symptoms on discontinuing treatment with Paxil

    Paxil gets accused by some of not working, by others of working but limited to working only when you take it…

    Like having two children, or two employees, both claiming you favor the other.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  321. MD in Philly – Heh. Don’t stop taking this medication without consulting you doctor. D’oh!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  322. THE $100 MILLION TITANIC: Carbonite has lost on average $20 million per year for the past five years … its SEC reports show an “accumulated deficit” (accountant-speak for “cumulative loss”) of $100 million!
    http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1340127/000119312512101462/d277280d10k.htm

    HAIL MARY IPO: Last summer Carbonite rescued itself from insolvency with a weak desperation IPO. http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/03/carbonite-shoots-its-business-model-in-the-foot/

    COMPETITION: Losing its Rush-relationship will leave NASDAQ:CARB even more vulnerable to a surging tsunami of competition. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2288745,00.asp

    KAMIKAZE CEO: Carbonite’s CEO David Friend has effectively cut his company’s throat – in order to protest a few Limbaugh jokes about a 30-year-old political activist (Sandra Fluke) who is publicly crusading to compel other people to pay for female law students’ birth control! http://www.carbonite.com/en/blog/A-Message-from-Carbonite-CEO-David-Friend-Regarding-Ads-on-Limbaugh

    Eliot Ness (98883e)

  323. plus carbonite has a tendency to lose people’s data, which is bad for customers who want to not lose their data

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  324. Pointing out that Carbonite is a sucky company does not reflect too well upon Mr Limbaugh, since he went the extra step of endorsing that particular product which was being advertised on his show.
    Then again, Rush said it best: Carbonite no longer wants his listeners as customers.
    Then again on the other hand, do existing customers require repeated advertising in order to remain existing customers? Probably not; but that’s all academic . . . Rush was dissed, so Carbonite must pay.

    Icy (76598a)

  325. You’ll get something out of this.

    Skip right to the end to see what if you’re pressed for time.

    To those people I was debating the other day about psychiatric drugs, especially the antidepressants prescribed to children and whether this is appropriate, I enjoyed the discussion. We disagree, but I do believe at the end of the day we share a desire that kids and others be able to enjoy their lives as much as they can. We just have different ideas about what is best indicated based on the science.

    However, one source I cited was Dr. Peter Breggin. I like him. I like him a lot if for no other reason than his 1970s campaign to prevent the return of surgical lobotomies. Even if you believe he is wrong to take an “absolutist” position against forced drugging, I think a lot of what he has to say about counseling and helping people and families makes a lot of sense.

    Whether or not you were involved in the debate on that topic, I believe you will greatly enjoy this few minutes of video. One thing you may not realize is just how conservative Peter Breggin is, how pro-American he is, how much he believes (except where medical science shows otherwise, such as how psychiatric drugs can sometimes negatively affect self-control) in personal responsibility for all people.

    Here he’s in the middle of giving a talk and notices someone has put his most recent book on the podium, and starts to talk about it for a few minutes.

    Please watch this (it’s good, really) for a few minutes starting at 1:18:01:

    “Wow, I’m an American!”
    Peter Breggin’s newest book

    If after watching that you’re at all interested in Breggin’s thoughts on the topic of debate, he begins to speak at in the 49:09 mark. But if you don’t want to watch that part, that’s totally OK. Just kindly watch the bit starting at 1:18:01 because it will broaden your perspective about him, and also you will genuinely appreciate it for its merits.

    Random (38d59c)

  326. Comment by Sammy Finkelman — 3/5/2012 @ 6:34 pm

    I was more engaged in debate than anything else here, but I just wanted to say I appreciated your opinions, facts, and insights, not to mention moral support.

    Random (38d59c)

  327. Comment by Random — 3/10/2012 @ 6:07 pm

    I was more engaged in debate than anything else here, but I just wanted to say I appreciated your opinions, facts, and insights, not to mention moral support.

    This is I am sure addressed to a lot of people.

    What I was doing a little bit was trying to get you onto better territory. Robert Whitaker not Peter Breggin. Whitaker has lots of sources. Plus the fact that there us a certain contradiction with common sense.

    Sammy Finkelman (63b67e)

  328. I disagree with you about Breggin. I think he’s an excellent researcher and well-sourced. He tends to go back to the underlying literature and not how it’s twisted by the drug companies.

    Random (38d59c)

  329. 167. 228 267

    SF: Has anybody thought about the idea that Ritalin may be the reason that fewer males are going to college and now women college students outnumber men?

    It’s that bad.

    Comment by Icy — 3/5/2012 @ 8:20 pm

    – This is the best comment that you have ever made.

    Or ever will.

    Comment by MD in Philly — 3/5/2012 @ 10:05 pm

    And the comment about fewer boys in college because of Ritalin use makes me po’ed. I’ve seen more kids who would have done well in college but never made it because of not taking Ritalin than kids whose academics were interfered with.

    By not taking Ritalin, do you mean people who went off the drug? Or people who never took it, but it was proposed that they should?

    If the former that’s an argument that someone becomes dependent on it without saying anything about where they would have been had they never taken it in the first place. And since it will in any case eventually be discontinued, or maybe has to be discontinued, the end result is inevitably very bad, if not in college, then later.

    If the latter, it’s total speculation what Ritalin would have done in the long run.

    My idea is it might be lowering intellectual capabilities or curiosity. And what is the explanation? How is this generation different from previous generations?

    I haven’t been able to find anything at all (at least easily) about the correlation between Ritalin or other things and the drop in males who go to college compared to females. I did find this:

    http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2009/07/more-on-the-male-female-sat-math-test-gap/

    Using Census Bureau data, the chart below shows that females taking the SAT exam as a percent of the total increased from 50% in 1975 to 53.6%, as the male percentage has decreased from 50% to 46.4% over that period (see chart below).

    The level has stabilized since 1995 (with children born in 1978 or later) That is also about when they changed the test.

    According to the reasoning above, as the number of females taking the SAT exam increased over time (along with the percent of total) relative to males, the mean female score should have decreased relative to the male mean score, and the male-female gap should be INCREASING over time, theoretically.

    But that is exactly the opposite of what has actually been happening. The chart below shows that the male-female gap has actually been decreasing over time, even as more females took the test relative to males, from a high of 46 points in 1977 to a gap of 33 points in 2008.

    This means that males are genuinely less capable, compared to females, than they used to be. Fewer boys relative to girls are now taking the test, and yet their relative advantage in scores declines.

    You’d expect both effects if Ritalin, or something else that affects boys much more than girls, was diminishing intellectual capacity or drive.

    Illegal drugs? Does the time line fit? The explosion in the use of illegal drugs took place earlier. Ritalin only started to catch on in the 1980s and skyrocketed in the 1990s so I’m not sure if that precisely fits either.

    Of course one possible explanation is that that could be test bias. But boys still score higher on math than girls, just not like before.

    Another statistic: http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/sommers-war.html

    In 1984, an equal proportion of males and females participated, [in Advanced Placement (AP) classes) But according to the United States Department of Education, “Between 1984 and 1996, the number of females who took the examinations rose at a faster rate…In 1996, 144 females compared to 117 males per 1000 12th graders took AP examinations”.

    According to the National Center for Education Statistics, slightly more female than male students enroll in high-level math and science courses.

    What’s going on here? This is not a natural trend.

    More from this book review, written in the year 2000:

    The College Gap

    The U.S. Department of Education reports that in 1996 there were 8.4 million women but only 6.7 million men enrolled in college. It also shows women holding on to and improving this advantage well into the next decade. According to one Department prediction, by 2007 there will be 9.2 million women in college and 6.9 million men.

    This article says: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/education/09college.html?pagewanted=all

    There actually were more men going to college around 2005 than 1985 and they were more likely to graduate but the percentage of college students who were men was 42%. In the highest income families, though, more boys attend college than girls. Women were more likely to get honors at places like Harvard. . Men took longer than women to get degrees and fewer completed their studies.

    All this is consistent with a higher value being
    placed by more people on going to college than before (with high income families – that is, usually more educated families, it was already high) but also a concurrent diminishment in male intellectual capacity.

    Sammy Finkelman (63b67e)

  330. You could argue that the distribution with males is skewed at both ends, so if more males take a test their average drops more than if more women take a test. But that would apply as you went over 50% taking it. Maybe a different number than 50% if there were fewer men exceptionally good than exceptionally bad. These are all partial statistics. Nobody supplies enough numbers.

    But the fewer number of men getting honors has to mean something.

    I can’t take this further right now

    Sammy Finkelman (63b67e)

  331. Or it could be that K-12 schools aren’t interested in teaching boys in ways that work for them and instead cater to girls’ learning methods. Schools discourage recess and teaching methods that involve hands-on projects and competitions (things boys are good at and like to do). Schools encourage teaching methods that focus on sitting for extended periods of time, group projects, and verbal interaction (things girls are good at and like to do).

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  332. Further, I think most Ritalin prescriptions are for boys, often at the request of schoolteachers or mothers who want their children to be more calm. I know what it’s like to live with someone who has ADD or ADHD, but I also know girls and boys are different. Young girls are generally more mature and calm than young boys. Some may be using Ritalin to help make young boys more like girls, e.g., more manageable, when that’s not who they are.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  333. “Some may be using Ritalin to help make young boys more like girls, e.g., more manageable, when that’s not who they are.”

    DRJ – Hence the performance of the boys on tests may suffer as described above, they may decide I’ve had enough of this school nonsense and decide to forego or postpone college because they feel discriminated against.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  334. I agree with a lot of you folks about Ritalin. We’re medicalizing perfectly normal behavior of humans placed in unnatural, boring settings.

    Used to be that boys could roughhouse and fight and compete and so on. Now they are expected to comport themselves like little misses and it isn’t natural.

    I remember bringing pocket knives to school and showing them to the other boys and seeing theirs (keep it out of the gutter) and it was no big deal. Those days are gone. I remember this guy who sat behind me bullying me in 3rd grade for weeks until one day I got up in the middle of class, dragged him from his chair, and beat him up (such as a 3rd grader can accomplish).

    The class looked to the teacher for guidance and the teacher, a wise woman, said not a word. I’ll give it to the “bully” — he was crying, but he didn’t complain to the teacher or go to the principle or even mention it to his parents that I know about. Instead he returned to his seat, as did I. The class was at rapt attention. The teacher carried on with her lesson. Life went on.

    Of course, he and I became friends and started hanging out a lot at each others’ houses and played on sports teams together for years. He was always a bigger better athlete.

    There is no way this would happen now. Forget parents, both situations would probably have gone to the police.

    So we medicate boys to get them to concentrate or what have you, and these drugs affect the minds a lot more negatively than people realize. They superficially increase concentration, but at the expense of creativity and personality development. They also affect the brains.

    America will travel around the world spraying crops to fight the “war on drugs” and pressuring countries who want to try different approaches, such as decriminalization and treatment, to get into line; then consumes 1/3 of the world’s prescription drugs, including medicating its children with stimulants.

    WTF?

    And they’re not even the best-selling, most counterindicated prescribed drugs in America: that would be the statins.

    Random (38d59c)

  335. “I think this may have been a factor:”

    Random – Yeah, without any evidence that the soldier involved in the shootings was taking any medications, your anti-depressant paranoia makes that a great guess.

    Your spamming of the board with these links is getting boring.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  336. daleyrocks, he previously had had a breakdown in a combat zone. The odds of him not being given an antidepressant in the modern military at that point are practically nil.

    Random (781e00)

  337. More U.S. Soldiers Killed Themselves Than Died in Combat in 2010
    For the second year in a row, more American soldiers—both enlisted men and women and veterans—committed suicide than were killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan….

    This new data, that American soldiers are now more dangerous to themselves than the insurgents, flies right in the face of any suggestion that things are “working.” Even if something’s working, the system is still very, very broken.

    One of the problems hindering the military’s attempt to address soldier suicides is that there’s no real rhyme or reason to what kind of soldier is killing himself. While many suicide victims are indeed afflicted with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after facing heavy combat in the Middle East, many more have never even been deployed….

    “If you think you know the one thing that causes people to commit suicide, please let us know,” Army Vice Chief of Staff General Peter Chiarelli told the Army Times, “because we don’t know what it is.”

    I’m reminded of a then current female air force MP I know who was prescribed SSRIs as she was depressed and lonely, not loving the air force, and was recently discharged following 2 bizarre suicide attempts. She’s off the antidepressants now, is feeling better, and hopes to join the air force reserves although, of course, I’m skeptical. 

    I don’t claim to have the one reason people kill themselves. It’s been going on for a long time. People are different. Life is hard.

    But I think the military and Veteran’s Affairs should look long and hard at the culture of giving SSRIs to large percentages of its members, particularly front-line marines on a per capita basis. 

    They’re risky — not only for increasing suicide attempts, but also spree killings and other violent outbursts specifically

    Random (781e00)

  338. “daleyrocks, he previously had had a breakdown in a combat zone. The odds of him not being given an antidepressant in the modern military at that point are practically nil.”

    Random – Link please.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  339. The BATF is trying to disqualify anyone who has been on a regimin of anti-depressants from fireamr ownership; and the VA has been reporting such medical conditions to the FBI database and that data has been used to deny sales to ex-GI’s diagnosed with PTSD, no matter how recent or not the diagnosis is.

    BTW, at least when I was in, the USAF did not have MP’s – they called them AP’s, just as in the Navy, they were always called SP’s!

    AD-RtR/OS! (e2c82b)

  340. now puppie uppers?
    or time for doggie downers?
    stop now, doggoneit!

    Colonel Haiku (1f8994)

  341. Link to what? The article I linked to above said he had previously had a breakdown. Breggin’s testimony above and that of people knowledgeable of military practices shows SSRI and SNRI drugs are frequently given out and available to soldiers, often in 180 day supplies. The fact you haven’t even watched the most relevant testimony about this in front of the Veterans’ Affairs committee, does not mean you need new links. 

    It covers the points I just made. There is all sorts of evidence about the links between violence, including spree killing and suicidality, and antidepressant usage. 

    Americans buy about a third of the world’s prescribed drugs and the second best selling category of these, below cholesterol lowering meds, are psychiatric drugs. 

    You will find, if you look into this and his medical records are released, he was on an antidepressant, probably an SSRI or an SNRI.

    Oh, and correction. My info is a year out of date. Psychiatric meds are now the best-selling category of drugs in the US, as of 2011. 

    Random (781e00)

  342. BTW, at least when I was in, the USAF did not have MP’s – they called them AP’s, just as in the Navy, they were always called SP’s!

    Comment by AD-RtR/OS! — 3/11/2012 @ 4:35 pm

    Yes, I was doing a mental translation in my mind.

    Random (781e00)

  343. “They’re risky — not only for increasing suicide attempts, but also spree killings and other violent outbursts specifically”

    Random – Apparently you are paying no attention to what MD in Philly has said and believe that “Depressed People Have Suicidal Ideations” deserves front page headlines. “Depressed People Are Depressed”

    D’oh!

    Do you know anything about statistics random?

    Does citing independent violent acts have any statistical significance?

    Are violent acts committed by people taking anti-depressants more frequent than the general population?

    Do they commit violent acts because they are depressed or because they are on anti-depressants?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  344. “Link to what? The article I linked to above said he had previously had a breakdown.”

    Random – Wrong. The post at hotair says nothing about it. The link to the BBC piece embedded in the hotair piece suggests the soldier had a breakdown before the attacks, which I read as immediately before the attacks, unlike your interpretation:

    “The soldier – who had reportedly suffered a breakdown before the attacks – is said to have handed himself over to the US military authorities after carrying out the killings.”

    The other embedded link is silent.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  345. it is my opinion that Obama’s killbot commited a Human Rights Violation

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  346. *committed* a Human Rights Violation I mean

    that is my opinion

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  347. Random luvs junk science

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  348. Someone is obsessed with junk science

    JD (318f81)

  349. How wonderful if we could lay to Ritalin the acts of Lee Harvey Oswald, Sirhan Sirhan, James Earl Ray, and maybe even John Wilkes Booth.

    But, somewhere in this tale of woe, one has to leave room for that old devil, personal responsibility.
    For, unless one is found to be “clinically insane”, the ability to know right from wrong, and to act upon that belief, and to be responsible for those acts, still apllies.

    AD-RtR/OS! (e2c82b)

  350. Good Allah (sorry JD) you are a tendentious sort,

    narciso (87e966)

  351. Breggin is a quack

    JD (318f81)

  352. How wonderful if we could lay to Ritalin the acts of Lee Harvey Oswald, Sirhan Sirhan, James Earl Ray, and maybe even John Wilkes Booth.

    Not one of those was a spree killing. Those were political assassinations.

    Random (8fc411)

  353. Alright, daleyrocks. I think you wanted a link to information about him having had a breakdown.

    Here’s Hot Air:
    http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2012/03/11/report-u-s-soldier-suffers-breakdown-kills-at-least-16-afghans-in-rampage/

    Here’s the BBC article it was based on:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17330205

    “The soldier – who had reportedly suffered a breakdown before the attacks – is said to have handed himself over to the US military authorities after carrying out the killings.”

    There is no way to tell with a sample size of one whether SSRIs or SNRIs contributed to this spree killing. We don’t know for sure he was on those drugs, but considering standard practice, it would be surprising if he wasn’t given them. But we don’t have a sample size of one. We see these drugs in pretty much all high profile spree killings lately.

    Random (8fc411)

  354. “Comment by daleyrocks — 3/11/2012 @ 4:59 pm”

    Apparently yes, it is associated with increase risk of harm to others as well as attempts at self-harm.

    But you’re not willing to look at the evidence already presented, so it’s useless talking to you about it. I’m posting because I care about the issue, not specifically to convince you.

    It would be nice, honestly, if you’d look into it more deeply and answer some of these questions for yourself, and I’ve invited you to do so, but I can hardly do more than that and point you in the direction.

    Horse, water, drink, etc.

    Random (8fc411)

  355. Lee Harvey Oswald made JFK famous

    and vice versa

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  356. Martin Luther King died for his love!

    Kennedy died talking about something he couldn’t even understand, some kind of generalized love, and he never even backed it up

    [note: fished from spam filter. --Stashiu]

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  357. pretty much all high profile spree killings

    How many have there been, and how many of the perps were medicated?

    Does this apply to Dunblane, Scotland; or the stabbings in that school in Japan; what about the shooting in Tasmania; or the Montreal Massacre?

    AD-RtR/OS! (e2c82b)

  358. BTW, what does any of this have to do with Carbonite stepping on its dick when it walked away from the most successful talk-radio show in America?

    AD-RtR/OS! (e2c82b)

  359. carbonite is losing shareholders’ money even more dramatically than it loses customer data

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  360. i sent all my data to 2001 Big Space baby

    pdbuttons (2a0773)

  361. Does this apply to Dunblane, Scotland; or the stabbings in that school in Japan; what about the shooting in Tasmania; or the Montreal Massacre?

    I don’t know, frankly, and of course, it’s a fine question. I do know this:

    Japan Revises SSRI Warnings–Hostility, Violence

    In Japan reports of violence linked to SSRI antidepressants have raised public awareness to the danger these drugs can pose. A Japanese psychiatrist acknowledges: “To say that being able to tell the difference between depressives and mild manic-depressives is the test of a psychiatrist’s true skill is no exaggeration.”

    And:

    Health Canada advises Canadians of stronger warnings for SSRIs and other newer anti-depressants

    Advisory
    2004-31
    June 3, 2004
    For immediate release

    OTTAWA – Health Canada is advising Canadians that Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) and other newer anti-depressants, now carry stronger warnings. These new warnings indicate that patients of all ages taking these drugs may experience behavioural and/or emotional changes that may put them at increased risk of self-harm or harm to others.

    Random (8fc411)

  362. buttons! Happy Sunday!

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  363. And

    Drug suicide risk fears renewed
    Seroxat (paroxetine)
    The researchers looked at 1980s studies into Seroxat
    Further concerns have been raised about potential suicidal side effects of a commonly used antidepressant.

    The drug Seroxat (paroxetine) is already banned from use by adolescents because of an increased risk of suicidal thoughts.

    In the journal BMC Medicine, University of Oslo scientists said existing studies indicated these warnings should be extended to adults.

    And:

    Suicide girls on antidepressants banned in Britain

    Etc.

    Then there’s the FDA’s own research and black box warning about suidicality.

    Random (8fc411)

  364. The threadjacking would suggest he is not averse to the kind of ‘ Luigi Vercotti’ treatment directed by MMFA but fronted by the Huff Po , to speech, disfavored by the regime.

    narciso (87e966)

  365. speaking of the suicidal ideation on walkingdead the little blond hoochie had sad feelings so she cut her wrist but then she decided to live and everyone lived happily ever after except for the old guy

    he got eated

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  366. **SPOILERS**

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  367. There is something wrong with a show with both Sarah Wayne Callies (from Prison Break) and Laurie
    Holden (from the X files) and you are still rooting
    for the zombies, Demunn, however, has long since
    served his usefullness.

    narciso (87e966)

  368. “But you’re not willing to look at the evidence already presented, so it’s useless talking to you about it.”

    Random – Either you are pretending not to understand questions or are deliberately ignoring them. Neither one speaks well of your willingness to honestly discuss the topic you hijacked the thread with.

    I’m learning I cannot trust a single thing you say.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  369. I personally like our hapless tribe of zombie fodder but yeah the guys I watch the show with root for their death in terms what I sometimes find crude and even massageyness

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  370. Andrew Lincoln is still aces, he’s a brit by the way, but Jon Bernthal, just gets on my nerves

    narciso (87e966)

  371. “We see these drugs in pretty much all high profile spree killings lately.”

    Random – Fort Hood?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  372. Comment by MD in Philly — 3/5/2012 @ 10:05 pm
    And the comment about fewer boys in college because of Ritalin use makes me po’ed. I’ve seen more kids who would have done well in college but never made it because of not taking Ritalin than kids whose academics were interfered with.

    Sammy-
    By not taking Ritalin, do you mean people who went off the drug? Or people who never took it, but it was proposed that they should?
    If the former that’s an argument that someone becomes dependent on it without saying anything about where they would have been had they never taken it in the first place. And since it will in any case eventually be discontinued, or maybe has to be discontinued, the end result is inevitably very bad, if not in college, then later.
    If the latter, it’s total speculation what Ritalin would have done in the long run.

    Sammy- How many times have you prescribed Ritalin? How many patients have you observed on Ritalin? How many years have you practiced medicine? You often post helpful things that I appreciate, so this post does not apply to you in general, but on this topic.

    When you start posting comments on why people should or should or take a medication, you are potentially impacting the real decisions of individual people; individual people with real lives and real families; individual people who may have significant consequences of being influenced by your medical advice. Are you up for taking that responsibility?

    I do not have time to do an extended discussion, but I will make a response. If it sounds terse, harsh, and angry, it’s because it is. People don’t spend years of abuse in medical school and residency and go into debt so people on the side lines can write crap without understanding some very basic principles.

    First, if a person benefits from a medication, and when you stop the medication the problem returns, that does not mean one is addicted to anything, it means the medication controls or treats a problem, but does not cure it.

    Insulin does not cure diabetes for a person whose body does not make enough insulin, but if they stop the insulin, the blood sugar will again go out of control. If a person has a seizure disorder but has not had a seizure for years while taking a medication, and a month after stopping the medication has another seizure, it does not mean the are addicted to the anti-seizure medication, it means they have a seizure disorder that is successfully managed with the appropriate medication.
    If a person has significant ADD that responds well to medication, it does not mean the person is addicted to Ritalin if/when the symptoms return after the Ritalin is stopped.

    The effects of Ritalin on ADD and other forms of inattention and psycho-motor slowing from brain injury or various types of dementia often occur quite rapidly, as in less than an hour after taking the medication, when a proper dose is found. One can only speculate about the future of anything, but one does not have to “speculate” on whether Ritalin has a positive effect on function for a given person.

    Ritalin is only one important tool, along with various other medications which are also only tools, in the overall treatment/management of someone with ADD. To say they are worthless or always more harm than good is wrong. To act as if they are a magic panacea by themselves is also wrong. Hammers are useful tools when you need a hammer. Hammers can also damage things, hurt people, destroy things, even kill people. That does not mean that hammers are dangerous and useless things that should never be used, it means hammers should be used appropriately when a hammer is the right tool to use.

    As far as girls vs boys, ADD stands for attention deficit disorder. A deficit in attention can look like different things. Sometimes it looks like daydreaming and “just not getting it” without the hyperactivity. This is more often seen in girls than boys, and easier to miss. The inattentive daydreamer does not disrupt class, so is allowed to flounder. That’s bad.

    It has often been said that the suicide risk for the military was greater than that of the general population. That has been true, but that has been true at least in part because the suicide risk of the age group in the military is greater than that of the general population. Lies, damned lies, and statistics, and perhaps damned statistics when purposefully misused. Sometimes over the last 50 years more soldiers have died in training exercises than in combat, does that mean the military should not do any training?

    There are many reasons potentially responsible for poor educational performance that should be looked at before doing the cheap and easy thing of blaming it on Ritalin, IMO.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  373. “We see these drugs in pretty much all high profile spree killings lately.”

    Random – Virginia Tech shooter – No anti- depressants.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  374. America’s Medicated Army — Time

    Random – Fort Hood?

    There’s a good chance he was self-medicating (he certainly had access), but how do I know? Obviously his main expressed motivation was religious/political, but the drugs can increase the likelihood of people acting on violent or suicidal thoughts, as well as the likelihood they will have such thoughts in the first place. They are obviously not the sole and complete cause, anymore than alcohol is the cause of traffic accidents.

    But they contribute, and informed consent is generally severely lacking (whereas most people are aware of what alcohol does).

    Random (5b7dde)

  375. Random, there is nothing in your recent posts and links which are not explainable by things I have already said. Medications are not candy, they should be used by doctors with knowledge, they should be used in situations where the patient can be adequately seen in follow up and not limited by the doctor’s schedule, an insurance policy, or the overburdening of a health system.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  376. MD in Philly – I hope I have not been stepping on your toes with anything I’ve been saying.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  377. they should be used by doctors with knowledge, they should be used in situations where the patient can be adequately seen in follow up and not limited by the doctor’s schedule, an insurance policy, or the overburdening of a health system.

    Which probably isn’t the case in oombat soldiers being given up to a 6-month supply.

    Random (5b7dde)

  378. Random – Virginia Tech shooter – No anti- depressants.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 3/11/2012 @ 6:44 pm

    True.

    The warnings now being issued by licensing agencies around the world are based on increased frequency of incidents in people on these various drugs vs. placebo (which produce almost all of the benefits of the drugs anyway), not that murder and suicide only happen after taking them.

    I said in a sample size of one, this case in Afghanistan, you can’t tell the cause with certainty. But you can observe trends and patterns.

    Random (5b7dde)

  379. I love how random guesses and postulates about that which he states he cannot know.

    There’s a good chance he was self-medicating (he certainly had access), but how do I know?

    JD (318f81)

  380. MD in Philly – hear him, hear him.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  381. My initial reaction was, “What a bastard. He killed women and children. If he really did that without strong mitigating circumstances, let him hang.”

    And I still agree with that.

    But then others pointed out it’s too early to know for sure there aren’t mitigating circumstances, and of course they’re right. In fact, I remembered our conversation here from the day before. Then I remembered the article I was reading talked about him having a prior breakdown, and I realized he would most likely have been prescribed antidepressants for that.

    So no, I can’t say with certainty whether he is just a grade A psychopath, whether the stress of the situation and the recent riots and murders of Americans over the Qu’ran burnings, or whether the drugs played a significant role — as I believe the science shows they can. But in fairness to the man, I think it’s worth mentioning and something that should be looked at by his attorneys and by the courts, as well as congress and the public at large, if it may be a factor.

    Again, above, there’s testimony at the Veteran’s affairs committee, and on YouTube there’s the opposing pro-biological psychiatry view of the same testimony. I think these are important issues and worth thinking about.

    Even if these are actually wonderful drugs and virtually risk free, it would still be worth thinking about. But I and a lot of others, based on either personal experience or research, just don’t think that is the truth.

    Since it can affect people we care about — Mariela (SSRIs cause new brain cell growth and in young growing people, this could be awful — the drug companies cite it as a reason to think their drugs work, but the FDA and DEA say this is proof methamphetamines are bad — go figure) … members of the military … ourselves and our families.

    You can disagree with me and I assume you do. But I feel better for having brought it to people’s attention with the best of intentions.

    Random (5b7dde)

  382. How in the world can you observe trends and patterns in a sample of one?

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  383. and I realized he would most likely have been prescribed antidepressants for that.

    Pure speculation

    JD (318f81)

  384. I love how random guesses and postulates about that which he states he cannot know.

    There’s a good chance he was self-medicating (he certainly had access), but how do I know?

    Comment by JD — 3/11/2012 @ 6:56 pm

    JD, I was asked. I speculated. It’s possible because lots of people take these drugs and it isn’t rare for doctors to self-medicate. Plus, his subsequent behavior is not inconsistent with someone on these drugs. I don’t know if he took them and I admitted that. The answer was a fair one to the question.

    Random (5b7dde)

  385. How in the world can you observe trends and patterns in a sample of one?

    Comment by Ag80 — 3/11/2012 @ 7:02 pm

    Oh for God sakes. The numerous links (including of national health authorities warning about these behaviors) and the studies presented within them, etc., mostly occurred before this incident even happened. It clearly isn’t based on a sample size of one.

    Random (5b7dde)

  386. or whether the drugs played a significant role

    In the very same paragraph, you go from admitting you ha e no effin clue if he was prescribed meds, to then speculating whether or not the drugs played a role, drugs you don’t even know if he was taking.

    JD (318f81)

  387. daley
    I believe you’ve said things only that I would agree with, I have no quarrel with you, but thanks for asking.

    As I said before, I generally appreciate Sammy’s contributions. i perhaps should have been a bit softer, but I don’t want to keep on this.

    Random- giving a soldier a 6 month supply of any medication without any follow up sounds foolish, if that is what is done, if you want to harass someone, harass the NHS of Britain and Canada and insurers in the US that do not want to cover adequate F/U of people with depression. You wouldn’t want to give even the most common medication for blood pressure and not see someone for 6 months. FWIW, it’s been close to 20 years or so since I’ve trusted Time to get anything right and honest.

    SPQR, thank you.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  388. and I realized he would most likely have been prescribed antidepressants for that.

    Pure speculation

    Comment by JD — 3/11/2012 @ 7:04 pm

    No, not pure speculation. It’s a reasoned guess based on what usually happens when people have “a breakdown” these days, including and especially in deployed military units. See the testimony above at the Veterans’ Affairs committee, for example, or the Time Magazine piece, or etc. etc.

    Random (5b7dde)

  389. Or maybe I should read quack Breggin

    JD (318f81)

  390. In the very same paragraph, you go from admitting you ha e no effin clue if he was prescribed meds, to then speculating whether or not the drugs played a role, drugs you don’t even know if he was taking.

    Yes, for frig’ sakes. They do play roles in these situations, and most people aren’t in the slightest aware of that. By pointing that out, it gives people an opportunity to pay attention and be aware of it, and consider the implications, plus do research on their own.

    I don’t know why you are so thick that this doesn’t make sense to you. He did an awful thing. My first reaction was to condemn him. Some people (at Hot Air) pointed out there may be mitigating circumstances. I speculated as to what one of those may be, and a not unlikely one.

    It’s something to consider and think about, not take to the bank at this point.

    Random (5b7dde)

  391. Or maybe I should read quack Breggin

    Comment by JD — 3/11/2012 @ 7:10 pm

    Ad hominem’s are easy, JD. Being honest enough to admit that a link between antidepressants and violence over and above what is seen with placebo is being increasingly acknowledged around the world is harder. But you’re not a serious person, obviously.

    Random (5b7dde)

  392. They only play a role, for the sake of argument, if they are actually shown to have been taken. You admit you have no clue,then just keep on going,

    JD (318f81)

  393. “Random – Fort Hood?

    There’s a good chance he was self-medicating (he certainly had access), but how do I know?”

    Random – That’s right, you are making statements about things you do not know, in other words, pulling it out of you butt to serve your narrative.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  394. Breggin is not a serious doctor.

    JD (318f81)

  395. They only play a role, for the sake of argument, if they are actually shown to have been taken. You admit you have no clue,then just keep on going,

    Comment by JD — 3/11/2012 @ 7:13 pm

    Yes, you stupid dumbass. I explained why it was likely he was given them, and the association they have with out of character spree killings.

    Whether he took them or not, it’s still an interesting scientific topic that health authorities the world over, including in America, are looking at/acting on. Even if he didn’t take them, then that’s a data point in the other direction.

    Random (5b7dde)

  396. There’s a good chance he was self-medicating (he certainly had access), but how do I know?”

    Random – That’s right, you are making statements about things you do not know, in other words, pulling it out of you butt to serve your narrative.

    Comment by daleyrocks — 3/11/2012 @ 7:13 pm

    You intellectually dishonest man.

    I didn’t mention it. You asked. I speculated and admitted I had no certain knowledge. It was a reasonable speculation. I mean, he’s a psychiatrist. At a minimum, he would have had access.

    Random (5b7dde)

  397. Yes, the point is well made that being prescribed medication and taking medication are two very different things. There could be a lot of smoke about any one individual supposedly being on medication if they weren’t, wouldn’t be the first, or millionth, time that has happened.

    Goodnight.

    MD in Philly (3d3f72)

  398. So, basically whether he took them or not, your obsession would not manifest itself any differently.

    JD (318f81)

  399. I love the new Luddites. They blather about what they don’t know with the certainty of Solomon while never considering current average age of death vs. just five, four, three or two decades ago. Or the vast majority of people who take anti-depressants and somehow don’t kill people.

    Are all drugs safe? Of course not. But they can be used to treat illnesses effectively despite potential side-effects.

    But then again, despite protestations of such, random seems to exhibit Scientology rhetoric, so, there you go.

    And conservatives are supposed to be anti-science.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  400. He wrote a 75 page power point, on the glories of Jihad, I think OCD wasn’t his problem, btw, scratch
    Bernthal,

    narciso (87e966)

  401. “The warnings now being issued by licensing agencies around the world are based on increased frequency of incidents in people on these various drugs vs. placebo”

    Random – Why don’t you ever mention the actual frequencies in the studies instead of just mentioning the doubling of suicidal ideations. Is going from two people to four people in a sample of 2,200 statistically significant?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  402. Is going from two people to four people in a sample of 2,200 statistically significant?

    You’re under the impression 1/1100 people taking antidepressants have suicidal ideation???

    Random (5b7dde)

  403. Actually, 1/1100 who are candidates. 1/550 who are taking it, by your guestimate.

    I’d say your a bit on the low side.

    Since you have not seriously looked at the testimony, research, referred to studies within, etc., I’ve already linked to more than once, I’m not teasing apart individual studies for you.

    However.

    Clearly the suicidal ideation rate / suicide attempt rate of people who are candidates for antidepressants has to be significant. A doubling of that is serious. The doubling isn’t seen at all age ranges, but is seen in young people, and possibly that is a result of the new, abnormal brain cells caused by these drugs while their brains are developing. That’s speculation, but it isn’t unreasonable. And before you get on your high horse about it, the drug companies don’t know how their drugs work. Not really.

    Random (5b7dde)

  404. And before you get on your high horse about it, the drug companies don’t know how their drugs work. Not really.

    Neither does the FDA. Abject nonsense.

    JD (318f81)

  405. You are glib, random. GLIB

    JD (318f81)

  406. Well, this is a bummer:

    In a meta-analysis of 46 studies, Andrews et al. (2011) found the relapse rate for antidepressant-treated patients (SSRI: 44.6%; SNRI: 42%; MAOI: 45.4%; Tricyclic: 55.6%;) was much higher than for placebo-treated patients (24.7%).

    Ouch. No wonder most studies are in the 4-12 week range.

    Kirsch, I., Deacon, B. J., Huedo-Medina, T. B., Scoboria, A., Moore, T. J., & Johnson, B. T. (2008). Initial severity and antidepressant benefits: a meta-analysis of data submitted to the food and drug administration, PLoS Medicine, 5(2), e45 EP New Study: SSRI Antidepressants ‘Clinically Insignificant’ For Most People

    Turner, E. H., Matthews, A. M., Linardatos, E., Tell, R. A., & Rosenthal, R. (2008). Selective publication of antidepressant trials and its influence on apparent efficacy, New England Journal of Medicine, 358(3), 252-260.

    I mean, it’s so good that Mariela, to take the initial person I was talking about, was prescribed these things. /

    Random (5b7dde)

  407. You do know that your cites are done with the knowledge of side effects and to warn about results.

    You do know that such studies are done for pretty much all medicines.

    You do know that doctors can and do prescribe these drugs with the knowledge of these studies because the benefit may outweigh the disadvantages.

    They are doctors, after all.

    Penicillin may kill me. Not the first or second time, but it could be the first or second time.

    The first time, it did not. Hence, well, this post.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  408. “Since you have not seriously looked at the testimony, research, referred to studies within, etc., I’ve already linked to more than once, I’m not teasing apart individual studies for you.”

    Random – I looked at the long range FDA study, which is why I’m asking you to actually put numbers out there.

    Why are you afraid to do so?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  409. Random – How about another spree killer – Amy Bishop of UAB Huntsville?

    You are a complete hack.

    Get off my lawn!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  410. Study: Suicide rates among army soldiers up 80 percent

    A report published in Injury Prevention shows that suicide rates among U.S. Army personnel increased 80 percent between 2004 and 2008. Out of the 255 soldiers who had committed suicide between 2007 to 2008, 17 percent of the soldiers had previously been diagnosed with a mental health problem. Fifty percent had visited a health professional for a mental issue.

    “While suicide remains a relatively rare event, the results of this study suggest it is increasing at an unprecedented rate and, unlike any other time in history, U.S. military suicide rates now appear to have surpassed those among comparable civilian populations,” Dr. Simon Rego, a supervising psychologist at Montefiore Medical Center in New York City, told HealthDay. “It is therefore critical that we address this emerging public-health problem.”

    Source: CBS News report

     

    Medicating the military
    Use of psychiatric drugs has spiked; concerns surface about suicide, other dangers

    At least one in six service members is on some form of psychiatric drug.

    And many troops are taking more than one kind, mixing several pills in daily “cocktails” — for example, an antidepressant with an antipsychotic to prevent nightmares, plus an anti-epileptic to reduce headaches — despite minimal clinical research testing such combinations.

    The drugs come with serious side effects: They can impair motor skills, reduce reaction times and generally make a war fighter less effective. Some double the risk for suicide, prompting doctors — and Congress — to question whether these drugs are connected to the rising rate of military suicides.

    “It’s really a large-scale experiment. We are experimenting with changing people’s cognition and behavior,” said Dr. Grace Jackson, a former Navy psychiatrist.

    Source: Army Times

    Well, I guess I’ll just shut up now. Clearly the problem is under control.

    Oh. Wait.

    More U.S. Soldiers Killed Themselves Than Died in Combat in 2010
    For the second year in a row, more American soldiers—both enlisted men and women and veterans—committed suicide than were killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan….

    Random (5b7dde)

  411. Or the truther that shot up the Arlington train stop, Bedell, or Stack, the Austin IRS flyer.

    narciso (87e966)

  412. And, finally, random, perhaps the sergeant who is alledged to have conducted these murders may have been on drugs, prescribed, legal or illegal, but his actions do not mean that all people react the same.

    We can all speculate on the reason. Charles Whitman climbed a tower with a tumor, Mohammed Atta wanted to please Allah. That’s what we think based on evidence.

    But we don’t know the real reason either did what they did. Evidence may not always be the truth, but it’s the best we have and it usually works out.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  413. I agree with what you just said, Ag80, but you also have to look at the aggregate. As you understand.

    Random (5b7dde)

  414. C’mon Random, you do know your last cite doesn’t mean anything.

    Read your cite:

    One of the problems hindering the military’s attempt to address soldier suicides is that there’s no real rhyme or reason to what kind of soldier is killing himself. While many suicide victims are indeed afflicted with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder after facing heavy combat in the Middle East, many more have never even been deployed. Of the 112 guardsmen who committed suicide last year, more than half had never even left American soil.

    “If you think you know the one thing that causes people to commit suicide, please let us know,” Army Vice Chief of Staff General Peter Chiarelli told the Army Times, “because we don’t know what it is.”

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  415. Vaccines cause Autism and retardation.

    [note: released from moderation. --Stashiu]

    JD (318f81)

  416. Vaccines cause autism, and ret@rdation.

    JD (318f81)

  417. Given the direction this thread has taken … I just want to say there are tremendous benefits to prescription drugs (including Ritalin) and I didn’t mean my earlier comments to suggest otherwise.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  418. It’s a wonder, JD why isn’t RFK jr, and Lancet chased with torches after that bit of malpractice.

    narciso (87e966)

  419. “You do know that your cites are done with the knowledge of side effects and to warn about results.”

    Ag80 – What Random is desperately trying to avoid discussing is the rate of side effects actually reported in studies.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  420. “Given the direction this thread has taken … I just want to say there are tremendous benefits to prescription drugs (including Ritalin) and I didn’t mean my earlier comments to suggest otherwise.”

    DRJ – I did not take your comments that way.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  421. when I am sad I commit Human Rights Violations

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  422. Comment by Random — 3/11/2012 @ 6:05 pm

    Well, those are to be expected in the Nanny-States that both have become.

    AD-RtR/OS! (e2c82b)

  423. How do we know that the “peer reviewed” medical journals are any more accurate than what we saw in the AGW debacle, especially after the autism scandal?
    If this is all a solution chasing after a problem to solve, it is no more accurate than how the ban on R-12 “solved” the problem of the ozone hole, or how “carbon credits” will prevent AGW.

    AD-RtR/OS! (e2c82b)

  424. I understand your point, random, but aggregate has nothing to do with the statistical incidence of the outcome of any drug on any individual.

    The smallpox vaccine may have killed some, and I’m not this point going to look up the mortality rates, but it eradicated a fatal disease for the general population.

    Suppose science found a drug that cured cancer, all cancers, but it killed at least .001 percent of the population because of genetic anomalies.

    What would you do?

    Nonetheless, we are both speculating. Neither of us has the knowledge, training nor expertise to say one is right or the other.

    I like posting on Patterico because I can be a bloviating asshat that people can ignore. For me, that is liberating.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  425. Ag, you just may be, but we pay attention regardless.

    AD-RtR/OS! (e2c82b)

  426. AD: thanks.

    Happy: I think your existence may be a human rights violation.

    Thank goodness for human rights violations.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  427. praise be I guess

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  428. I like posting on Patterico because I can be a bloviating asshat that people can ignore. For me, that is liberating.

    I am sure we have disagreed, but I never recall thinking you a bloating asshat, even once. I have thought that of random 457974225787433784 times in this thread.

    JD (318f81)

  429. Random – I have flames coming out of my water faucet right now. I think it must be from hydraulic fracking or something. What should I do?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  430. No, I’m not calling Dr. Peter Breggin.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  431. Ag80 – I get that bloviate thing all the time. It’s a feature, not a bug. Good thing we had to change the clocks this morning ’cause I had to wash my underwear. It’s hell on my tighty whities.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  432. JD: I’ll try to recall a time when we disagreed, but I can’t remember any off hand.

    daley: I like to think of it that way, not the washing underwear part, the first part.

    happy: pikachu’s only know the ball.

    Good night. I’m on vacation for a week. Happy trails.

    Ag80 (b0b671)

  433. “daley: I like to think of it that way, not the washing underwear part, the first part.”

    Ag80 – Every six months, whether they need it or not.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  434. No matter what motivated this soldier, I’m afraid it will be a disaster for America’s other military personnel in Afghanistan. I know they were already targets but this will make things much worse.

    DRJ (a83b8b)

  435. The Afghan Ministry of the Interior has urged the Afghan people to show restraint in their response until investigators finish their inquiry, however, considering the raging riots that took place after the unintentional burning of the korans, it’s highly unlikely that will happen.

    Dana (4eca6e)

  436. yes he’s not exactly a team player

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  437. They did such a bangup job, last time, vetting the officers that work in the secure section, there.

    narciso (87e966)

  438. Unbelievably, the NYT is seriously asking why not a Massacre Tribunal?

    What is almost never considered, however, is a trial of the perpetrator in the country where the crime took place. It’s one of the reasons why the United States “unjoined” the International Criminal Court and forces other countries to sign bilateral agreements that protect American soldiers from prosecution abroad.

    But is a trial in situ really so crazy, as a kind of soft-power diplomacy, as a kind of calming outreach to countries where the United States has a substantial military presence? Why not a joint military tribunal or a combined court-martial by U.S. forces and the Afghan National Army?

    This is a dreadful situation, and yet giving an American soldier over to a tribunal held in another country – especially one like Afghanistan – is unacceptable. My fear is, however, that this is precisely how Obama might feel about it: It would indeed give the Karzai and his people the reassurance they demand. It would be his ‘bow and apology’. (And yes, while there are bilateral agreements in place to prevent this, when did this president not feel his decisions were subject to any approval but his own?)

    Dana (4eca6e)

  439. let’s pause and listen to Associated Press propaganda slut Lolita C. Baldor reminisce fondly about the recent koran burnings

    The destruction of Qurans in a fire pit used to burn garbage last month sparked violent protests that killed some 30 people.

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  440. if you’re in Afghanistan reading this and you’re a muslim prone to anger you need to understand that in America, the Associated Press hosts weekly koran piss parties where they piss all over the Holy Koran

    I have links

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  441. Mr. Feets – Media Matterz has those parties too.

    I have links.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  442. it’s sick Mr. daley

    just sick

    happyfeet (3c92a1)

  443. Has Random considered the possibility that this soldier did what he did because either, A) he needed to be on anti-depressants; or, B) he was on them but had stopped taking them?

    Icy (d4608c)

  444. Carbonite’s 2011 Annual Report shows that this dot-com disaster has vaporized $100.4 million over the past seven years and is speeding toward insolvency as it loses $2 million more each month.

    [NASDAQ:CARB 2011 Annual Report]

    Carbonite pays its CEO David Friend $500,000 per year to manage the loss of $500,000 per week. That is insane! (Except here in Washington, DC.)

    When Carbonite’s piggy bank is empty it will perforce be shut down or liquidated in a fire-sale.

    Limbaugh will be doing his listeners a service by NOT shilling Carbonite’s service and/or stock because the company’s business model simply is not that of an “ongoing concern.”

    Carbonite is an impending “spectacular dot-com flameout” that enriches its executives and insiders at the expense of shareholders.

    Eliot Ness (98883e)

  445. David Friend has two daughters or whatever. So that’s a big key element to how he runs his money-losing data-losing operation.

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  446. Oh dear. Another thing to check out or analyze before making investment or stock purchase decisions, now. Does the owner/CEO have daughters who may need to be provided with free contraceptives by the government someday?

    elissa (b47460)

  447. Carbonite shares down another 1.6% today

    Icy (d4608c)

  448. Hanoi “Barbarella” Jane and Ms. Gloria “Playboy Bunny” Steinem calling for the FCC to “clear Limbaugh from airwaves”. The Fairness Doctrine lives!

    Icy (d4608c)

  449. If Carbonite is good, it is kind of ridiculousto stop using them. If Carbonite can’t keep its commitments what wss Rush Limbaugh doing selling it till now?

    Maybe people need st least two backup services.

    Sammy Finkelman (63b67e)

  450. Carbonite price: $9.46 to $8.54 (March 5th thru March 12th)
    That’s a decrease of 9.6% in stock value (in heavy trading — about twice the normal volume of shares changing hands) since the announcement that they were abandoning Rush.

    Glass half-full: investors that think Carbonite is going to rebound from this brouhaha can pick up a bargain! Any takers?

    Icy (d4608c)

  451. Obama knows courts of Egypt aren’t good, and he wouldn’t trust Iraq for Americans, and he’s trying to get special reassurances that certain people turned over to the Afghan government will not be released.

    Sammy Finkelman (63b67e)

  452. Another recent spree killer not on anti-depressants – Jared Loughner.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  453. Since you have been a flippant jackass with many of your comments, I shouldn’t answer. However, early and often as you’d know if you’d read my comments, particularly with an open mind and functioning brain.

    Coming off of them is dangerous.

    Random (38d59c)

  454. Thar she blows!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  455. @Icy

    Random (38d59c)

  456. Better to be flippant all day long than to be condescending even once.

    Icy (d4608c)

  457. Icy – I would rather be flippant than weapons grade stupid.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  458. In keeping with the original topic:

    http://althouse.blogspot.com/2012/03/oh-travails-of-lefty-comedian-hey-did.html

    Painted Jaguar (A sockpuppet) (3d3f72)

  459. Sad.

    Random (38d59c)

  460. A new Olympic sport – linking quacks.

    JD (318f81)

  461. I always get my best “facts” from Progressive Radio Network.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  462. Is there something ironic about Mr Anti-anti-depressants linking something with the word “sad”?

    Icy (192e4b)

  463. “Random- giving a soldier a 6 month supply of any medication without any follow up sounds foolish, if that is what is done….”

    Comment by MD in Philly — 3/11/2012 @ 7:08 pm

    The Dr. Peter Breggin Hour—’psychiatric drug practices involving our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as afterward in the VA’
    May 16, 2011

    Download this episode (right click and save)

    Bob Brewin, investigative reporter, provides the data and I provide the outrage and the analysis on the extraordinarily abusive psychiatric drug practices involving our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as afterward in the VA. The drug companies found the ideal top-down market for their drugs: Get the army to give them to active duty combat soldiers–a mind-boggling 20% of them. Unsupervised young men and women carry into combat 90-120 day supplies of all the most dangerous drugs: benzos like Xanax, stimulants like amphetamine; antidepressants like Paxil and Prozac; and antipsychotic drugs like the old Trilafon and the new Seroquel. Hear an in depth expose and examination of the Psychopharmaceutical Complex at its worst and the irresponsible psychiatrists who so eagerly enforce it. A tour de force of psychiatry at its worst.

    “Medications are not candy, they should be used by doctors with knowledge, they should be used in situations where the patient can be adequately seen in follow up and not limited by the doctor’s schedule, an insurance policy, or the overburdening of a health system.”

    Comment by MD in Philly — 3/11/2012 @ 6:46 pm

    Study: Suicide rates among army soldiers up 80 percent

    A report published in Injury Prevention shows that suicide rates among U.S. Army personnel increased 80 percent between 2004 and 2008. Out of the 255 soldiers who had committed suicide between 2007 to 2008, 17 percent of the soldiers had previously been diagnosed with a mental health problem. Fifty percent had visited a health professional for a mental issue.

    “While suicide remains a relatively rare event, the results of this study suggest it is increasing at an unprecedented rate and, unlike any other time in history, U.S. military suicide rates now appear to have surpassed those among comparable civilian populations,” Dr. Simon Rego, a supervising psychologist at Montefiore Medical Center in New York City, told HealthDay. “It is therefore critical that we address this emerging public-health problem.”

    ~~~

    More U.S. Soldiers Killed Themselves Than Died in Combat in 2010
    For the second year in a row, more American soldiers—both enlisted men and women and veterans—committed suicide than were killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Random (38d59c)

  464. Just think how depressed all those suicide bombers must be, Random. Where’s the love?

    God bless the American military and their families!

    Colonel Haiku (e907d0)

  465. God bless the American military and their families!

    Comment by Colonel Haiku — 3/14/2012 @ 12:29 pm

    Not so much their psychiatrists.

    Random (38d59c)

  466. “U.S. military suicide rates now appear to have surpassed those among comparable civilian populations,”

    What are the rates, Nate?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  467. and WTF do anti-depressants have to do with Carbonite anyway?!?

    Unless their CEO had them prescribed after seeing the stock price hit the toilet.

    Colonel Haiku (e907d0)

  468. Carbonite went on the offensive yesterday, employing a PR firm to distribute a press release titled “New Study From Carbonite Finds Big Gaps in Small Businesses’ Backup Plans.” Did this shameless exercise in fear-mongering disguised as ‘a study’ work?

    Of course it did! Today there were pronouncements from analysists such as “Carbonite worth another look” and “Buy Carbonite to $16″ (predicting that it’s stock price is going to double). Investors responded, and Carbonite stock is up 5% in heavy trading.

    None of this matters, though, if they’re unable to attract new customers to replace all of those they’ve lost. Their next couple of quarterly earnings reports should be interesting.

    Icy (192e4b)

  469. I blame Obama.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  470. people get sad when Carbonite loses their data Mr. colonel

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  471. “people get sad when Carbonite loses their data”

    Mr. Feets – They may even get depressed, which might cause them to get prescribed antidepressants which turn them into spree-killing murder bots or something.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  472. Progressive campaign against Carbonite is creating killers.

    Oh, teh irony.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  473. MD in Philly,

    I’d invite you to listen to the radio show linked above here.

    I know two things about you: You want to help your patients personally. You care about your country and its military.

    You’re also a trained scientist/medical doctor. I think you’ll find the state of psychiatric prescription and follow-up practices within the military both of personal and professional interest. I also urge you to keep in mind the unprecedented upticks in suicide rates within the military and among its veterans as you listen with an open, yet critical, mind.

    Random (38d59c)

  474. Doping-up the soldiers…

    Well, when you’re a member of the DoD’s Medical Corps, you don’t have to worry about the downstream costs of malpractice, do you?

    AD-RtR/OS! (b8ab92)

  475. Having an open mind to a quack’s ideas seems less than optimal.

    JD (d246fe)

  476. Being a dumbass who casually dismisses the facts, such as the US military having an 80% increase in completed suicides, and now having a higher suicide rate than a comparable civilian population for the first time in its history as unfettered access to psychiatric drugs is stupid. Ignoring the near-doubling of suicidal ideation and attempts by people who are already at risk for both is retarded. Dismissing the FDA black-box warning about increased suicidality for people under 24, and not even looking with an inquisitive, compassionate mind at Michelle’s cousin who was then 18 and on these drugs, and is now nowhere to be found, and perhaps preventing similar situations from happening in the future … is … glib.

    Never claim you “support the troops” or even “love children”, JD. You support and love thinking about yourself as right: F— them.

    [note: released from moderation. --Stashiu]

    Random (38d59c)

  477. “Being a dumbass who casually dismisses the facts, such as the US military having an 80% increase in completed suicides, and now having a higher suicide rate than a comparable civilian population for the first time in its history as unfettered access to psychiatric drugs is stupid.”

    Random – It may be news to you, but people with mental issues are more likely to commit suicide. The Army statistics you have so misleadingly described acknowledge that. If you had the brainpower to understand anything MD in Philly and others have been saying, the dangers of using or stopping the use of maintenance medications without following medical advice or medical supervision, you might have a chance of making an intelligent comment.

    Unfortunately, you have an agenda to pursue instead, so I see no possibility of anything intelligent coming out of your pie hole in the immediate future.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  478. Thanks, Stashiu, for releasing my comment.

    I realize what I’m saying is in a sense against aspects of standard practice within your profession, if I understand it correctly. So you may disagree in whole or in part with me, but you are honest enough to allow a contrary and contrarian viewpoint to be expressed uncensored.

    I will add this. What I said to JD was harsh, and what I said to MD in Philly was respectful of him and his profession and his opinion. Perhaps I shouldn’t have taken JD’s bait, but the point is MD is at least taking it as a serious thing — because it is — without dumb ad hominems, whereas JD is, to quote the famous/infamous Tom Cruise / Matt Lauer interview, being glib.

    He doesn’t like Breggin. I get it. If Breggin didn’t exist, there would still be a debate on this, for the simple reason that these drugs do have at least some negative effects, and they’ve been observed around the world. My question is, “Do they do more harm than good?” Obviously I think so, but regardless, I don’t see reasons for the glibness — if only out respect for the people going through difficult life situations with or without these drugs, in or out of the military, children or not, known to us personally or by reputation or not.

    JD: Even if Breggin is wrong in his opposition to surgical lobotomy, ECT, and psychiatric drugs … he still knows a lot about psychological and interpersonal-relationship therapy and has helped a lot of people. Little tidbit: he’s never lost a patient to suicide. I don’t think everyone in the mental health field can say that. That’s not to say they’re responsible for another’s decision, but … at a minimum .. there is more than one way to skin a cat. Certainly you don’t believe that every aspect aimed at helping unhappy or disturbed people was completely misquided before dopamine-blocking neuroleptics and “selective” (not so much) serotonin and norephedrine reuptake-pump inhibiting antidepressants.

    Life … plays a role.

    You should actually listen to the show I linked above. You’d actually agree with a lot of it, and you’d agree with even more of this, the first episode of his radio show, philosophically.

    He’s actually a pro-American, libertarian but religious (non-scientologist), pro-free-market, anti-socialism, pro-military guy who believes in personal responsibility for all. I don’t even agree with him about all that (I’m an atheist and I don’t believe there is a strong scientific argument that can be made in favor of robust free will; therefore, I have no theoretical problems with biopsychiatry except that I think the human brain is far, far, far too complex to be understood by them, and most of people’s actual problems are to do with experiences, memories, traumas, beliefs, upbringing, social relationship, life success, and on and on).

    Breggin is probably more “conservative” than most of us on this thread, not that I care much about that. I care about … the scientific evidence (and human liberty). You care about attacking one person who has courageously put himself out there to be attacked because of what he believes in.

    Congrats. You own that space.

    Random (38d59c)

  479. “the dangers of using or stopping the use of maintenance medications without following medical advice or medical supervision, you might have a chance of making an intelligent comment”

    You mean like being given 90-day supplies of stimulants, 180-supplies of most other psychiatric meds, and being sent into the field, able to re-order without even seeing a doctor? Kind of like that?

    daleyrocks, I’m speaking to MD in Philly because you are absolutely incapable of getting it.

    Random (38d59c)

  480. Never claim you “support the troops” or even “love children”, JD. You support and love thinking about yourself as right: F— them.

    You are right. I hate the troops. Hate myself for having served. And really hate my children.

    JD (d246fe)

  481. comparable civilian population for the first time in its history as unfettered

    You have never shown that there is unfettered access, nor that said unfettered access is the cause.

    JD (d246fe)

  482. Asspulls – R – Random

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  483. I haven’t shown they have unfettered access to anyone who hasn’t followed the links, yeah.

    You’re right in one respect, JD. Never attribute to malice that which ….

    Random (25bdaf)

  484. h8ters gotta h8te
    and it’s teh Unfettered H8te
    that’s absolute worst

    Colonel Haiku (e907d0)

  485. it just me or does
    random nature of chaos
    make putter flutter?

    Colonel Haiku (e907d0)

  486. Abject BS . Unfettered access is not synonymous with available with a prescription from a doctor. The number of complete asspulls you have hurled in this one thread is breath-taking, beginning in your very first comment. We all quite clearly get your point, and apparently if someone does not agree with you they are stupid, hate the troops, and hate kids.

    JD (d246fe)

  487. And puppies!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  488. Crossposting this, with slight edits to make it make for this conversation.
    ~~~

    Wow.

    Sen. Grassley Questions Glaxo on Paxil and Suicide Risk

    “The report alleges that Glaxo included certain types of suicidal events for placebo who received placebo but excluded those events for patients who took the drug.”

    Is that not exactly the same type of blatant lying as the L.A. Times in its global warming beliefs survey that Patterico posted about earlier today?

    Did GSK trial data mask Paxil suicide risk?

    An inappropriate analysis of clinical trial data by researchers at GlaxoSmithKline obscured suicide risks associated with paroxetine, a profitable antidepressant, for 15 years, suggest court documents released last month. Not until 2006 did GSK alert people to raised suicide risks associated with the drug, marketed as Paxil and Seroxat.

    An analysis of internal GSK memos and reports, which were released to US lawyers seeking damages, suggests that the company had trial data demonstrating an eightfold increase in suicide risk as early as 1989. Harvard University psychiatrist Joseph Glenmullen, who studied the papers for the lawyers, says it’s “virtually impossible” that GSK simply misunderstood the data – a claim the company describes as “absolutely false”.

    This is a perfect example of the same dishonest practice as at the dog trainer; it’s also interesting because it dovetails with today’s Sock Puppet Friday featuring Senator Grassley.

    Random (974eda)

  489. *make it make sense for this conversation

    Random (974eda)

  490. Obsess much?

    Random (0e9826)

  491. The last comment was by a dishonest sockpuppet.

    Random (aa39e9)

  492. Obsess much?

    This thread was dead for over 2 days.

    JD (318f81)

  493. This thread died the moment it was jacked at #76

    Icy (820f58)

  494. There’s a discussion on the case of Robert Bales, who killed the women and children in Afghanistan. A commenter at Hot Air knew and liked him and finds it inexplicably out of character. The title and link to the headlines thread is:

    “He is not some psychopath”

    While Bales, 38, sat in an isolated cell at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.’s military prison Saturday, classmates and neighbors from suburban Cincinnati, Ohio, remembered him as a “happy-go-lucky” high school football player who took care of a special needs child and watched out for troublemakers in the neighborhood…

    “He’s one of the best guys I ever worked with,” said Army Capt. Chris Alexander, who led Bales on a 15-month deployment in Iraq.

    “He is not some psychopath. He’s an outstanding soldier who has given a lot for this country.”

    There’s a discussion there of both his personality and whether drugs (including an anti-malarial drug) may have contributed to his horrific action, slaughtering people in 2 villages.

    Random (891778)

  495. And then there are those that beat the ground where the dead horse lay before it’s carcass was scooped up and shipped off to the glue factory.

    Icy (820f58)

  496. Random hates science. And honesty. And is quite obsessed.

    JD (318f81)

  497. Mental illness does not lead to suicide, drugs are the cause.

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  498. daleyrocks,

    I actually don’t know if from you it’s:

    • stupidity

    • stubbornness

    • dishonesty

    … but the point is very simple. A variety of things lead to suicide, including mental illness, physical illness, and simple unhappiness which isn’t necessarily a mental illness. However, the evidence is these drugs increase suicidal behavior.

    Increase, get it?

    Random (0b5884)

  499. and simple unhappiness which isn’t necessarily a mental illness

    – That would be your NON-clinical depression. And since it taint no men-tal disorder, there taint no reason to treat it wit no powerful psychotics. Why don’t you just cheer the fvckup already!

    Icy (682dee)

  500. 504. Robert Bales. I’ve been thinking about this.

    My guess is, and has been for a few days and so far not disproven, that he wanted to get out of Afghanistan, and was very afraid of getting killed or severely wounded. In fact we learn, just the day before a person he knew had lost his legs.

    As background, he didn’t have much ethics or religious beliefs. He came from a military base where a generalized contempt for human life had become prevalent, and was a sniper.

    Things seemed not to be going well for the United States in Afghanistan. In fact things looked like they could be deteriorating very quickly. But the troops were not going to be withdrawn too quickly. It was all going to be on schedule. They were supposed to turn over duties to the Afghan army. Nobody seemed to realize the danger. He had no confidence in Obama or the top military ranks. And he was in the part of Afghanistan most likely to be overrun by the Taliban and he was out in the villages – villages that had switched sides. They could be trapped and worse.

    He decided that the best way to get himself out of Afghanistan, and his family evacuated, was to commit an unspeakable crime. Not rape – that would disturb his relationship with his wife. His mind didn’t turn toward stealing, and besides that wouldn’t work. Any crime on base might result in his being killed. He needed to be alone, and therefore it had to be against Afghans, and it needed to be really, really, bad, so that it could not be ignored or treated as low priority and would attract the attention of the top brass. He wasn’t taking any chances it would be anything less than top priority, or attributed to the Taliban, or not reported, so he did it twice.

    He would be arrested and spend most of his life in jail, but he would be alive, unmaimed, and his family would be safe.

    If he hadn’t have been so used to killing, he would have thought of some other breach of discipline that would get him and his family immediately out of Afghanistan.

    The massacre was rational, cool, calculated – and evil. Well maybe stupid too. It was hardly the best possible plan for getting out of the exposed position he was being put in, and also evacuated out of Afghanistan.

    Sammy Finkelman (7583fb)

  501. – That would be your NON-clinical depression. And since it taint no men-tal disorder, there taint no reason to treat it wit no powerful psychotics. Why don’t you just cheer the fvckup already!

    Comment by Icy — 3/19/2012 @ 1:08 am

    You’re stupid. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

    Random (3c4969)

  502. “This thread died the moment it was jacked at #76″

    Well, it didn’t exactly die…but, it sure got propelled into a strange other world.

    :)

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  503. Sarah Palin: So hey did you watch GCB last night?

    Brick Wall:

    Sarah Palin: Me neither I was just wondering if maybe you had cause I heard Sheryl Crow was gonna do a guest star thingy on it but I’m not sure when but I won’t watch it anyway cause the whole show is an attack on people of faith you know.

    Brick Wall:

    Sarah Palin: So for dinner tonight I was thinking fish sticks and tots. Everyone like fish sticks and tots. Plus the oven helps heat up the house.

    Brick Wall:

    happyfeet (a55ba0)

  504. The part you’re missing, Icy, is that I agree with you, there wouldn’t be any reason to prescribe in that case. But prescribe they would, almost certainly.

    Random (3c4969)

  505. “However, the evidence is these drugs MAY increase suicidal behavior.”

    Random – FTFY. Still can’t get it right, can you? That’s why it’s so important to follow the prescribing information and pay attention to the black box warning. D’oh!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  506. To MD in Philly, Stashiu, Sammy, Dustin, DRJ, to anyone who was taking this remotely seriously, if you haven’t gotten to much of what was linked above, listen to this (right click to download MP3) between 10:00-24:00 minutes in (or the whole thing) and tell me this is “informed consent”, “good medicine”, or even remotely a decent, humane, honest way to treat veterans.

    Random (3c4969)

  507. I used Sheryl Crow as a synonym for “vapid” when playing password once. Mrs carlito didn’t get it.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  508. “However, the evidence is these drugs MAY increase suicidal behavior.”

    Random – FTFY. Still can’t get it right, can you? That’s why it’s so important to follow the prescribing information and pay attention to the black box warning. D’oh!

    Comment by daleyrocks — 3/19/2012 @ 5:16 pm

    They increase the incidence of suicidal behavior in a. You can’t predict whether it will cause a given person to increase their suicidal behavior, you ignorant asshat, anymore than we can predict whether a given bottle of scotch will cause a car accident.

    You are friggin’ dumb.

    Random (3c4969)

  509. *in a group

    Random (3c4969)

  510. “The part you’re missing, Icy, is that I agree with you, there wouldn’t be any reason to prescribe in that case. But prescribe they would, almost certainly.”

    The part Random is missing is the part that’s supposed to be between his ears…but, he’s actually right about that.

    Go into a doctor with a splinter in your finger these days, and they’ll insist it’s all in your head, and try to put you on Prozac.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  511. All drugs have side effects that are measured in aggregate, and it’s impossible to tell whether that side effect will happen to any one individual (Mrs. carlito excepted, she’s the poster girl for side effects). This is not just true for psychotropic drugs.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  512. lemme add some perspective…

    “I’m charged up…Don’t put me down
    Don’t feel like talking…Don’t mess around
    I feel mean…I feel O.K.
    I’m charged up…Electricity

    The boys are making a big mess
    This makes the girls all start to laugh
    I don’t know what they’re talking about
    The boys are worried, the girls are shocked
    They pick the sound and let it drop
    Nobody know what they’re talking about

    I’m charged up…I’m kinda wooden
    I’m barely moving…I study motion
    I study myself…I fooled myself
    I’m charged up…It’s pretty intense.
    I’m charged up…Don’t put me down
    Don’t feel like talking…Don’t mess around
    I feel mean…I feel O.K.
    I’m charged up…Electricity.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGpE2oXf0aE

    Colonel Haiku (18b775)

  513. Comment by Random — 3/19/2012 @ 5:19 pm

    Don’t bother addressing anything further to me, unless it’s about a comment you would like released or something else related to the site. I’ll leave it at that. Be thankful.

    Stashiu3 (1764bd)

  514. I thank you for that, Stashiu. I question the quality of military psychiatric care, however, and psychiatric care in general.

    Much of modern psychiatric care is a crime against humanity.

    Random (62cd41)

  515. Go into a doctor with a splinter in your finger these days, and they’ll insist it’s all in your head, and try to put you on Prozac.

    Comment by Dave Surls

    Easy for you to say, Dave! Try going in to see a doc with a finger in your sphincter and see what they do.

    Colonel Haiku (18b775)

  516. I question the quality of military psychiatric care, however, and psychiatric care in general.
    Comment by Random — 3/19/2012 @ 6:14 pm

    No shit. I question your ability to read plain English. I didn’t want to go there with you because you’re obviously troubled by the diagnosis your psychiatrist gave you long ago. It threatens your self-image and therefore must be denied using any means you can possibly rationalize. Unfortunately, she/he was right.

    Don’t address me at all as I will never respond to you again. You have no clue what you’re talking about, yet constantly call others stupid. Patterico can release your comments or fish you from spam. I don’t have the time, nor the energy, to deal with your nonsense.

    Stashiu3 (1764bd)

  517. “Try going in to see a doc with a finger in your sphincter and see what they do…”

    I’m going to do everything in my power to try and avoid that situation!

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  518. lol

    Colonel Haiku (18b775)

  519. and with that, Random assumed the position and went into doggie submission.

    Colonel Haiku (18b775)

  520. That’s out of line, Random. Stashiu’s professional contribution shouldn’t be called ‘the problem’ unless you have some kind of basis for that.

    It’s also an incredibly low blow. It’s easy to cite the problems and imperfections and even very bad, unfortunate example… it’s very hard to actually create a system that does a better job. War is ugly, hard stuff. The lengthy hard war of the past ten years has been grueling for many families.

    We’re even seeing the President apologize for burning Korans and squander gains in Iraq. For soldiers returning to their umpteenth deployment, burying the umpteenth friend… this is not easy.

    And yeah, there are some folks with some problems, and some of the approaches are imperfect because we are talking about human beings who can’t fix everything perfectly every time.

    But by and large it’s amazing to me how well they’ve done.

    Stashiu asked you not to address him… you should respect that if you care so much about veterans. Instead you made a point of putting him in his place. Real easy to do that from behind a keyboard. What would be stronger would be honoring his request. Have some self control and respect.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  521. The part you’re missing, Icy, is that I agree with you, there wouldn’t be any reason to prescribe in that case. But prescribe they would, almost certainly.
    Comment by Random — 3/19/2012 @ 5:11 pm

    – People suffering from “simple unhappiness” DO NOT commit suicide. People suffering from clinical depression DO.

    Icy (682dee)

  522. I very much doubt critics like people to address them, Dustin. Kind of how it works.

    Random (62cd41)

  523. And in case I wasn’t clear, it goes without saying that Stashiu’s full career of detainee terrorists and helping soldiers with their problems is a huge contribution we shouldn’t take for granted.

    It would take quite a life of helping others to achieve a place where one could look down on such a person and conclude they were the problem.

    Ah, the internet. I do my best to say things on here I would say to someone’s face. There are a few here, and I don’t mean just Random, who make a habit of saying things they wouldn’t say to your face.

    If that feels good to you, you need to figure out what is so wrong with you. It should feel wrong.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  524. If you disagree with the obsessive one, you hate the troops, and children. It is true. Random said so. And he quotes ducks.

    JD (0e9826)

  525. Yeah, I do have some basis for what I said: he supports standard practice, and standard practice in his profession has usually been barbaric. It certainly is now, although they use chemicals more than surgery to lobotimize people, often without telling them what the damn chemicals are supposed to do.

    This is one of many examples where it’s apparent you did not read the comment you replied to very well.

    I acknowledged the problems.

    This reminds me of when MD explained the problems with prescribing antidepressants and explained how to approach it, and you replied by noting the same problems he noted… as though they prove him wrong.

    I don’t see the need (or have the ability) to analyze you. I don’t have a problem with you personally, either. but your comment to stashiu was very disrespectful and he’s earned respect particularly on this topic.

    Find a way to make your point that doesn’t go down that road. Consider why you felt the need to put Stashiu in his place from behind that keyboard.

    It’s as if you are trying to ‘win’ a fight against psychiatry instead of persuade people about the problems most of us seem to grant exist.

    I now recall you said something about abolishing psychiatry now. I disagree that this is the way to handle a human, imperfect science.

    F—- off, Dustin.

    LOL. I get that quite a lot.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  526. Try going in to see a doc with a finger in your sphincter and see what they do.

    – Refer you to the authorities for practicing medicine without a license?

    Icy (682dee)

  527. “There are a few here, and I don’t mean just Random, who make a habit of saying things they wouldn’t say to your face.”

    That’s true of me, to a certain extent.

    Virtually everyone I associate with in real life isn’t just a lefty, but, an ultra-lefty, and if I don’t keep my mouth tightly zipped during political discussions at social gatherings…bloodshed would ensue (lefties, correctly, being known for their utter intolerance of other viewpoints).

    So, part of what i do on the net is blow off steam, and say what I really think.

    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me. It’s just a coping strategy.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  528. “I don’t have a problem with you personally…”

    I do.

    Real, honest to God, racists put me off.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  529. – Refer you to the authorities for practicing medicine without a license?

    Comment by Icy

    No. Put you to work on the “Rick Perry for President in 2012″ campaign.

    Colonel Haiku (18b775)

  530. Real, honest to God, racists put me off.

    Dave, I must have missed that part (I’m not saying you’re wrong… I ignored 99% of this conversation).

    art of what i do on the net is blow off steam, and say what I really think.

    Venting is healthy. Some people aren’t just venting. Some people are disturbed enough to tell someone they belong under a boot because of their nationality. Or that someone who obviously cared enough about the psychology of soldiers to spend decades in this thankless and painful job ‘is the problem’. The kind of people who are bold behind the keyboard to say such things should think about what’s up with that.

    Just venting at the liberals or whatever is completely unlike trying to get under someone’s skin because they think they’ve worked out a way to do some damage from the safety of the keyboard.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  531. “All drugs have side effects that are measured in aggregate, and it’s impossible to tell whether that side effect will happen to any one individual”

    carlitos – I agree, yet Randomasswipe continues to assert certain medications cause actions which may or may not show up in a given group, again an asspull based on moronic unscientific interpretation of evidence. Same as Dr. Peter Breggin claiming to be able to say anti-depressants led somebody to commit suicide. Really doctor? How can you prove that? Well, I can’t, but that is my opinion.

    Well OK then Dr. Breggin, where are all those jury verdicts against the drug makers? What’s that you say? There aren’t any citing you as an expert in the U.S. For heavens sake, why not? Because of Radom’s own words:

    “You can’t predict whether it will cause a given person to increase their suicidal behavior, you ignorant asshat”

    Random – Do you need a license to be so stupid?

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  532. Random is in moderation.

    Patterico (ab7bdd)

  533. Careful! Tom Cruise has been notified.

    Icy (682dee)

  534. Racists!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  535. “Dave, I must have missed that part”

    Different thread, Dustin.

    He pretty much flat out said that black people are just naturally stupider and more violent than Whites or Asians.

    That kind of talk really puts me off. Not so much because there’s anything wrong with saying it per se, but because EXACTLY that kind of talk was used as a justification for slavery and Jim Crow.

    Dave Surls (46b08c)

  536. Much of modern psychiatric care is a crime against humanity.

    Comment by Random — 3/19/2012 @ 6:14 pm

    Godwin’s Law for the WIN!

    Random is in moderation.

    Comment by Patterico — 3/19/2012 @ 8:31 pm

    Glad to see the ‘continuous improvement’ philosophy is being practiced here. Kudos.

    carlitos (49ef9f)

  537. He pretty much flat out said that black people are just naturally stupider and more violent than Whites or Asians.

    Jeez. I was already really straining here to give this person benefit of doubt.

    Sad to see a civilization that walks on the moon and splits the atom worry so much about this artificial race crap as though it’s a way to evaluate and explain individuals.

    Dustin (401f3a)

  538. Progressive Radio Network has made Random both intolerant and dumb. Another victory for multiculturalism and moral relativism!

    Oh, and corporations are teh suck!

    daleyrocks (bf33e9)

  539. If anyone is bored this is a fascinating video about the movie Battlefield Earth from top x-Scienos.

    Some tough language but good insight into David Miscavige. They also make some pretty major claims claims about Travolta.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrpMb51joJA

    Noodles (3681c4)

  540. *The Holocaust began with the systematic killing of medical mental patients.

    Watch the video at least. Then go on cavalierly.

    But you won’t watch the video. No way, no how. Neither would a sympathetic to Naziism German in 1932.

    Random (95c3e6)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 1.3086 secs.