Patterico's Pontifications

9/9/2009

ObamaCare already slashes number of uninsured!

Filed under: General — Karl @ 9:35 pm



[Posted by Karl]

How awesome is ObamaCare? So awesome that it has already reduced the number of uninsured by 17 million people!  At least, Pres. Obama magically dropped the number of uninsured from the 47 million that Democrats have been chanting like a mantra to 30 million in his speech Congress tonight:

(Courtesy of BreitbartTV.)

The magical reduction serves at least two purposes.  First, as Frank Luntz notes in the video, it helps the Democrats claim that ObamaCare will not cover millions of illegal immigrants.  House Democrats have rejected every attempt to require that people should be required to prove they are a citizen of the United States before receiving government health care subsidies, despite the fact that verification is overwhelmingly popular with voters.  But pulling illegals out of the uninsured helps them sweep that inconvenient truth under the rug a while longer — or so they hope.

The other benefit is that adopting a more honest number of the uninsured will make ObamaCare seem cheaper and (near-)universal coverage easier to attain.  Again, in reality, ObamaCare would play out far differently, making the underlying cost estimates a fantasy.  But the establishment media is so desperate to spin a Obama’s speech as “comeback” that there is almost zero chance that anyone will challenge Pres. Obama’s most obvious and arbitrary rewriting of the healthcare narrative.

–Karl

100 Responses to “ObamaCare already slashes number of uninsured!”

  1. Watch his magic on the saved or created jobs figures for his next trick.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  2. Apparently, Republicans have to act tacky to get the people to notice truths. Joe Wilson shouted ‘ you lie! ‘, and thanks to that, millions of people will learn that the democrats voted down verification of citizenship… that they mandated illegals getting free health insurance, but did so in a backwards slick willie way that is meant to help them lie about it.

    It’s juicy and interesting, but a lot of people would never have heard the other side of this issue. Glenn Beck is said to lack good decorum, and he got rid of one of those awful czars. Palin had to resign early and her facebook page has become more important than all the newspapers in the country to the healthcare debate.

    I wish republicans didn’t have to throw tantrums to get their claims evaluated by the people, but every time they do, the MSM loses credibility.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  3. Those 17 million will of course reappear just as soon as ObamaCare passes. Suddenly we will be hearing, “There are [fill in the number] million undocumented workers here making our beds, mowing our lawns, preparing our food, nannying our children, and they deserve health care coverage. It’s an issue of basic morality!” That is how the left can always continue to press for more, more, more where health care is concerned. Anyone who thinks the “social justice” crowd will fold their tents once they get whatever version of “universal” coverage passes this year is just kidding himself.

    JVW (d1215a)

  4. JVW – correct, because it’s not about solving health care problems – it’s about accumulating power.

    Solving problems does not lead to usurping more power, therefore the problems cannot be solved.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  5. So, tonight the President said,“

    There are now more than 30 million American citizens who cannot get coverage,”

    and we agree that the number used tonight by the President was meant to exclude illegal immigrants from the discussion.

    As I asked in another thread on this blog, are there really 30,000,000 Americans who “cannot get coverage,” or is the number of uninsured about 30,000,000 with many of those either not covered as a matter of choice (e.g., healthy people who would rather spend their money on something other than insurance) or those in a temporarily uninsured condition?

    In other words, what is the size of the population of Americans who actually cannot get coverage?

    Ira (28a423)

  6. Ira,

    Census Bureau report “Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007.” Issued August 2008 and contains the most up-to-date official data on the number of uninsured in the U.S.

    The report discloses that there were 45.65 million people in the U.S. who did not have health insurance in 2007.

    *9.73 million foreigners — foreign-born non-citizens who were in the country in 2007 — included in that number. So the number of uninsured Americans was actually 35.92 million.

    *And of those, “there were also 9.1 million people making more than $75,000 per year who did not choose to purchase health insurance.

    *Total number of Americans who lack health insurance presumably for financial reasons less than 27 million.

    The Census Bureau report also shows that the number of people without insurance actually went down in 2007 compared to the previous year — from 47 million to 45.65 million — while the number with insurance rose from 249.8 million to 253.4 million.

    Dana (863a65)

  7. Dirty socialist NPR propaganda hoochie Liz Halloran didn’t even deign to notice Joe Wilson helpfully explain how the little president man was lying, even though he had the unexpected good manners to point it out contemporaneously.

    happyfeet (6b707a)

  8. I’ve read that two thirds of illegal immigrants pay taxes. What do you guys buy that? If you do, how does it affect your thinking on the subject?

    Leviticus (f0edf9)

  9. Comment by Ira — 9/9/2009 @ 9:51 pm

    Ira, this data is a little bit out of date and it appears to come from a conservative-leaning policy center, but since the number of uninsured quoted in 2002 is about the same as the number today (don’t tell the Democrats!) it probably gives us a reasonably accurate picture. Subtract let’s say 10 million uninsured illegal immigrants (probably on the low side) and the 14 million from this piece that qualifies for Medicaid or S-CHIP but hasn’t yet applied for it, and we are down to about 20 million. From that group, factor out the young and healthy who don’t care to purchase insurance and the wealthy who don’t want to purchase it, and we very well may be down to a pretty small group or maybe 10 million or so. How about we just give each one of them a $2,000 voucher, and we can do this who thing for $20 billion per year instead of $200 billion, or whatever Obama plans.

    JVW (d1215a)

  10. Dana’s numbers are better than mine, so let’s take the 27 million from that post and factor out the alleged (to be fair) 14 million that qualify for Medicaid/S-CHIP and the young who don’t purchase it by choice and I think we are still at the 10 million number.

    JVW (d1215a)

  11. Illegal immigrants is how we got the piggy piggy pig flu, what I heard.

    happyfeet (6b707a)

  12. Dana, most of the people you’re citing are either not citizens at all or can get insurance if they want it.

    ira’s asking who ‘can’t get’ insurance. That’s a very low number. Those people indeed deserve our sympathy and help, but the census has no idea how many there are. I am guessing it’s well under 10 million.

    Personally, i think many people should cancel their insurance. Insurance that doesn’t sufficiently handle catastrophes and only offers co pays for normal level stuff, is just a bad deal for health young men, for example.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  13. Leviticus,

    It depends.

    DRJ (6a2898)

  14. Leviticus – Are they using fake or stolen social security numbers to pay taxes or how are they being withheld or paid to the government?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  15. About Obama dropping the uninsured number down to 30 million: did he think we wouldn’t notice?

    I understand why he did this, but exactly how is he going to answer accusations of ‘liar’ tomorrow? He simply cannot change the numbers because it’s more convenient – what does he think this is, a shell game?

    Outright deceit and manipulation never plays well. But once again, he’s given the Town Hallers more ammo.

    Dana (863a65)

  16. Thanks, Dana. Then, I can live with President Obama’s 30 million approximation.
    happyfeet, “Wilson . . . had the unexpected good manners to point it out contemporaneously” is a riot! Best comment I’ve read tonight.

    Ira (28a423)

  17. I missed the asterisk, but it seems Dana’s data makes the case much better than I. The federal government knows that Obama’s number for folks who can’t get insurance, even if they want it, is a lie.

    And people who choose not to get insurance for financial reasons can still get insurance if they want to. They simply (and often correctly) decide they want to buy other things, or save money.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  18. I’ve read that two thirds of illegal immigrants pay taxes. What do you guys buy that? If you do, how does it affect your thinking on the subject?

    It’s a good question. I may part company with my fellow conservatives here in that I support granting a path to citizenship to those illegal immigrants who have worked steadily for a number of years and can show that they paid taxes, provided they have kept out of trouble and learned English and fulfilled a few other criteria. So in that regard I have no problem in allowing them to qualify for any health insurance program while they are going through the citizenship process. By the same token, I support stricter border control and a policy whereby future migrants who cross the border illegally will be permanently barred from working here or receiving any sort of benefits, so future illegal immigrants would not be allowed into the health care system.

    JVW (d1215a)

  19. I need to be more clear or my head will explode, for some reason.

    So the number of uninsured Americans was actually 35.92 million.

    *And of those, “there were also 9.1 million people making more than $75,000 per year who did not choose to purchase health insurance.

    *Total number of Americans who lack health insurance presumably for financial reasons less than 27 million.

    If I’m following this correctly, if you don’t have insurance and make $74,000 a year, you’re included in that ‘presumably’ total. That’s why I say the 30 million claim is drastically too high. Take out healthy young men who don’t have insurance, and take out people who make enough to get insurance, but not $75k, and you’re left with a much lower number. Take out people eligible for medicaid but not sick yet, or medicaire but not enrolled yet, and the number is even smaller.

    That’s what I’m getting at.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  20. In other words, what is the size of the population of Americans who actually cannot get coverage?

    “There are roughly 8 million of these chronically uninsured. Any attempt to solve the problem of the uninsured should focus on this narrow slice of the 45.7 million person pie.” examiner.com

    See also Greg Mankiw’s column in the NY Times 11-4-2007. I don’t have a link for that one.

    Stu707 (0981d5)

  21. I followed you without any problems, Juan. I think that both you and I ended up at the approximately 10 million citizens who don’t have it and can’t afford it. I still think we can accomplish a great deal by giving all of them a $2,000 voucher (catch me in a better mood and I might agree to $2,500), which would be one tenth of what Obama proposes to spend.

    JVW (d1215a)

  22. JVW, I know you don’t mean to get into this discussion here, but those people, if they broke the law coming here, have cut in front of good people who don’t break our laws and want to become Americans.

    I think we should let anyone in who speaks English, can hold a certain level of job for a certain period of time, and never commits a crime. But if we let people who snuck in and were good in line ahead of people who weren’t, it creates the problem Reagan helped create with immigration.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  23. Comment by Leviticus — 9/9/2009 @ 10:05 pm

    First, I never know how they can accurately count ‘people not supposed to be here with no paperwork’, when they seem to have trouble counting things such as how much is actually spent on budgets, and how much of each budget is actually waste, etc.

    Anyone here ends up paying some taxes, even if it’s just buying a quart of oil for their friend’s car. If they’re paying income taxes, then they’re obviously not using their own ID, which has it’s own set of problems.

    Either the government should set rules for immigration or it shouldn’t. If it shouldn’t, is there some number that would begin to make you uncomfortable? Say 400 million Chinese?

    Having no control favors people from Mexico, because that’s the country that shares a border with the US, which was called the great melting pot for a reason – People came from everywhere, and that is one reason America has done as well as it has. A diverse set of people with one thing in common – a drive to become citizens.

    Taking the majority of immigrants from one country simply because of a shared border isn’t, in my mind, in the best interests of this country (or Mexico), because many from Mexico simply are in search of a job in America because Mexico doesn’t have the same opportunities. Allowing one country access simply because of a land border causes imbalances in both countries, and IMO, can be an impediment to progress in both countries.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  24. I saw a TV news report today that one out of four people in L.A. County have no health insurance.

    How many of them are Americans? Or even legal resident aliens?

    Michael Ejercito (833607)

  25. Michael Ejercito – Using the well established argument by anecdote, I was talking with three friends today, and we all had health insurance.

    Therefore that TV report was incorrect.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  26. Is this a fluke or has the AP turned on Obama?

    WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama used only-in-Washington accounting Wednesday when he promised to overhaul the nation’s health care system without adding “one dime” to the deficit. By conventional arithmetic, Democratic plans would drive up the deficit by billions of dollars.

    The president’s speech to Congress contained a variety of oversimplifications and omissions in laying out what he wants to do about health insurance.

    The AP also has a different view of why Obama changed the number of uninsured:

    OBAMA: “There are now more than 30 million American citizens who cannot get coverage.”

    THE FACTS: Obama time and again has referred to the number of uninsured as 46 million, a figure based on year-old Census data. The new number is based on an analysis by the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured, which concluded that about two-thirds of Americans without insurance are poor or near poor. “These individuals are less likely to be offered employer-sponsored coverage or to be able to afford to purchase their own coverage,” the report said. By using the new figure, Obama avoids criticism that he is including individuals, particularly healthy young people, who choose not to obtain health insurance.

    DRJ (6a2898)

  27. BTW, does this mean that there are still 15,000 people per day losing their insurance, or did that change too?

    Dana (863a65)

  28. Juan, if we can take Mr. Obama’s promises seriously (and, come to think of it, we can’t) then you and I will have plenty of opportunity to debate immigration policy soon enough.

    JVW (d1215a)

  29. Politico’s take on Obama’s speech is not that flattering, either. Here’s the section on why Obama revised the number of uninsureds:

    What he said: There are now more than thirty million American citizens who cannot get coverage.

    What he meant: I know I said as recently as last month that there 47 million uninsured, but I’m changing the baseline.

    Nope, 17 million people did not just find insurance in the last month. The adjusted figure is part of the White House’s effort to distance itself from claims that health reform will cover illegal immigrants. Census figures, which will be updated Thursday, show there are 47 million uninsured – but about 10 million are illegal immigrants. Another five to seven million are people who could go on Medicaid, but have not. That leaves about 30 million that the president needs to cover under the bill. Expect to hear this number instead of the larger figure from now on, according to White House aides.

    DRJ (6a2898)

  30. Oh, ferchrissakes. What is Barack “Goddamn America” Obama doing on TV again?

    I thought most presidents standing at the lectern of the House of Representatives were there to give the State of the Union address, in January, not September.

    I’ve read that two thirds of illegal immigrants pay taxes.

    Yea, and a lot of that probably is largely from the nickels and dimes generated by purchases at a fast-food restaurant or some other lower-cost type business. So big whoop-de-doo.

    However, my biggest concern about the “undocumented” is not just whether they’re paying their fair share or not, or whether they’re stressing out the healthcare system or not. My biggest concern are the years and years of statistics and studies that indicate an uncomfortably high percentage of immigrants from nations like Mexico — and the generations that succeed them — are academic laggards, if not outright stereotypical high-school drop-outs, a vicious cycle of despair and self-destructiveness.

    And so if Mexico can’t become like a southern version of the United States, then why the heck does the United States have to become like a northern version of Mexico? Forever caught in a quagmire of poverty, crime, corruption and mediocrity run amok—-ie, sort of a liberal/leftist nirvana, since people on the left are the ideal suckers, the so-called useful idiots who are easily manipulated and scammed.

    Mark (411533)

  31. I have been interested in this “uninsured” number issue for a while. I did notice that tonight he used the three words “uninsured American citizens”, whereas I am almost certain he has used the two word term “uninsured Americans” exclusively in the past. And, tonight the number concurrently just went down by 17 million (which is similar to the figure being used to quantify the “undocumented” during last year’s immigration hearings). That ain’t no coinky-dink.

    elissa (c1b4f7)

  32. “At least, Pres. Obama magically dropped the number of uninsured from the 47 million that Democrats have been chanting like a mantra to 30 million in his speech Congress tonight”

    Yeah, libs can switch from one lie to another lie without missing a beat.

    What else is new?

    Dave Surls (6e6228)

  33. You need to leave Teh One™ alone. Why, in the space of just two weeks, he’s reduced the number of uninsured by 33%.

    steve miller (c5e78c)

  34. […] gang at Patterico’s are discussing and troll-bashing.  It’s good […]

    Gazzer’s Gabfest » Barry was told there would be no math… (b98ad6)

  35. Dear Senator Boxer:

    Tonight President Obama promised that no illegal aliens would get government healthcare. To support the president I ask that you immediately publicly state that YOU support verification of citizenship as a requirement to receive any proposed healthcare benefits under ANY new law proposed.

    I thank you in advance for SUPPORTING OBAMA!

    Note: Failure to support Obama on this point is tantamount to wanting him to fail, which would render such a person “unamerican” and probably a “nazi”. So don’t be an Unamerican Nazi and support OBAMA! (Ohmygod! “UN” ….=Unamerican Nazis! Don’t talk to them Obama – it is a trap!!!)

    Californio (2f8afb)

  36. You go Joe Wilson. A man can only take so many lies without calling out.

    krusher (6b6316)

  37. I’ll bet Valerie Plame is at last proud of her husband Joe Wilson…oh, wait a minute

    Gazzer (22ecdc)

  38. Two things. One, when the Democrats planted the heckler(s) in the House when W spoke, they were given a 100% pass. Where was the beloved “context” aka dredging up past incidents the MSM so love? I am not defending Wilson’s rudeness. But, if Dems and their apologizers get to engage in relativism, I do, too. Yes, Wilson is a member and the heckler was not – but Democrat operatives put the heckler in place with the intention of interrupting a presidential address to a joint session.

    Two – I am one of those “uninsurables.” My preconditions, and my less-than stellar health make it impossible for me to enjoy coverage. I am not employed by a company nor am I a part of any organization that enjoys group insurance rates. If the pre-condition clauses went away, and groups could be formed in ways not allowed today, I would have a chance at insurance.

    Here’s the thing – I don’t know that the pre-condition clauses should be eliminated. I have no particular love for insurance companies (I think they are close to evil, actually), yet my conservative beliefs make it difficult for me to impose my problems, some of which are self-imposed, on all y’all.

    Ed from SFV (9b7f1a)

  39. Sorry, but whether it’s 47 million or 30 million or even 20 million is hardly relevant. Even Obama’s most vociferous critics agree that 10s of millions are going without insurance. That’s insane.
    We’re rich enough, smart enough and civilized enough to provide healthcare for everyone. And because we can, we must.
    Do we really want to be remembered as a society where tens of millions of people were wealthy, yet, as a society, couldn’t find it within ourselves to make sure that the poorest among us were healthy?
    That — not whether 47 or 30 or 10 is the magic number — is the question.

    Unapologetic Mexican (fb1df1)

  40. …People came from everywhere, and that is one reason America has done as well as it has. A diverse set of people with one thing in common – a drive to become citizens.

    Comment by Apogee — 9/9/2009 @ 10:25 pm

    More correctly, a drive to become Americans. Not a drive to earn their entitlement card, to take what they can get, and impose upon and demand. But a drive to join, to participate, to assimilate and become part of the fabric of America.

    Matador (ad4464)

  41. Here is the reason for the lower number.. this info is provided for the benefit of independent truth seekers and does not attempt to influence Republican Conservative Reality Deniers,,’

    The new number is based on an analysis by the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured, which concluded that about two-thirds of Americans without insurance are poor or near poor. “These individuals are less likely to be offered employer-sponsored coverage or to be able to afford to purchase their own coverage,” the report said. By using the new figure, Obama avoids criticism that he is including individuals, particularly healthy young people, who choose not to obtain health insurance.

    VietnamEraVet (9f20cf)

  42. Unapologetic, not only are “we” rich enough to provide healthcare for everyone, we actually do.

    The bulk of those without health insurance are doing so voluntarily, choosing to spend their money in other ways.

    Your attempt to confuse the two: healthcare, and health insurance, is typical of the misrepresentations made by advocates of government takeover of the healthcare business.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  43. Unapologetic Mexican,

    1) I really don’t want to pay for health care for your family.

    2) It is not in the Constitution

    Sorry. GFY and Die. Or move back to “sorry-ass” Mexico.

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  44. WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama used only-in-Washington accounting Wednesday when he promised to overhaul the nation’s health care system without adding “one dime” to the deficit. By conventional arithmetic, Democratic plans would drive up the deficit by billions of dollars.

    Someone at the AP is getting fired, and not getting their invite to the White House. That was awesome. Conventional arithmetic.

    We’re rich enough, smart enough and civilized enough to provide healthcare for everyone. And because we can, we must.

    This is the kind of person that wants to be in charge of your healthcare decisions. Be afraid, be very afraid. We can afford to give everyone a new 24″ Mac, HD flat screens, and a new Wii, therefore, we must.

    JD (1825ff)

  45. Filed Under. Too Retarded to Know I am Retarded …. Mark Haines of CNCBC with Richard Shelby”

    Mark: The current system is unsustainable because it costs too much. The Government needs to fix it.

    Shelby: The Government is not going to cut costs. It always grows costs. What program has ever been reduced? They alwasy grow out-of-control and end up increasing per person expenditures

    Mark: Hard to argue that point.

    UM MARK?????????? Hello?

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  46. Hell, JD, the HDTV and Wii would be a lot cheaper …

    SPQR (26be8b)

  47. Obama retarts …..

    1) USA is going broke because health care spending is growing uncontrollably.

    2) We need to triple the country’s national debt over the next 10 years to get the economy back from the brink and solve social ills.

    So we aren’t broke when Government wastes tens of trillions but when the private sector grows …. we are growing broke.

    Is it possible to have a very late term abortion of these idiots?

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  48. Our private health care system is “bankrupting” the USA.

    Our Federal Government which is already bankrupt, and going even more bankrupt, will solve it.

    … John “Obama” Hardwood “in is arse” on CNBC shilling pretty hard.

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  49. Again, JD, the unicorn frolickers are raising “ends” to a divine position in this debate.

    It comes down to at least a few grownups to deal with the “means.” The fact that the “means” add up to inefficient, financial ruin means nothing more than a Unicorn Fart to those who see the “ends” as a moral imperative.

    Shorter Version: SHUT UP WITH YOUR DEFICITS AND JUST PAY FOR THE HOLY COVERING OF THE POOR THINGIE!

    BJTexs (a2cb5a)

  50. Republicans are such sorry folks being called names like hatemongers and bigots and racists for such things as hate mongering, pandering to bigots and racism,! How unfair.

    Listen folks. You are the ones who have called him a closet Muslim, said he wasn’t born here, is an angry black man who has a problem with whites, is a racist, pals around with terrorists, wants America to fail, is setting up internment camps and death panels, is a serial liar. wants to socialize medicine and euthanize grandma and indoctrinate our children ..just for openers.

    Meanwhile your Republican Conservative policies have us involved in at least one no win, senseless war for reasons that keep changing while killing our soldiers, killing Iraqis and bankrupting the nation. You advocate torture even though every one of you here could be tortured into saying you are loyal members of the ACLU proving how ineffective torture is, you have damaged our once good name with torture and endless imprisonment without opportunity to prove ones innocence. You overlook the Bush failure to protect us on 9/11, you stole elections, increased cultural divides, ran up the deficit with your tax breaks for the top 1% that were supposed to produce wonders in the economy but produced disaster instead, deregulated the banking and finance industry leading to a near fatal collapse and now oppose health care reform for purely political reasons. All this while insisting on prayer in schools and Under God on our money! And when anyone says anything about this you blame the so called “liberal” news media. If only they would stop calling attention to your failures and lies!

    Your heroes are people like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity..hateful, lying, nasty reality deniers.

    And anyone who has ever tried to talk sense with you knows that its impossible to reason with you. So why is that? Why is it you so eagerly embrace all these lies and distortions and hate mongering and overlook the incompetence and disasters of the Bush years and his failed policies?

    That is a question only psychologists and historians of the future will be able to answer but the reason seems to be a deep seated resentment and fear of the changes in the world and the loss of power on the part of old white males and the laugh is that the very people you think are helping you bring back 1950 are picking your pockets dry. But you don’t get it and probably never will.
    Amen

    VietnamEraVet (9f20cf)

  51. We’re rich enough, smart enough and civilized enough to provide healthcare for everyone. And because we can, we must.

    We do, of course. I have spent thousands of hours, maybe hundreds of thousands, providing care and got paid exactly zero. Every doctor I know provides free care, many don’t even bill MediCal because the payment is so poor that it isn’t worth the hassle.

    Do we really want to be remembered as a society where tens of millions of people were wealthy, yet, as a society, couldn’t find it within ourselves to make sure that the poorest among us were healthy?

    It is beyond our power to make sure they are healthy. Why do you think they are poor ? They have behavioral issues that cause them to fail to improve their economic lot when millions of others move from the lowest quintile to become well off or even wealthy. Some of them are poorly educated. Some have substance abuse problems. Some just act in anti-social ways. All these things affect their health. We are the first country in the history of the world to have obesity as a major problem of poverty.

    That — not whether 47 or 30 or 10 is the magic number — is the question.

    Comment by Unapologetic Mexican

    If you are an unapologetic Mexican, I assume you are posting the comment from Mexico.

    Mike K (2cf494)

  52. VietnamVet calls Republicans haters. He must have picked than up on Keith Olbermann’s show on MSNBC.

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  53. I didn’t call Obama a closet muslim, VietnamEraVet, that’s another lie of yours.

    The “pals around with terrorists” part is true, VEV, Obama does.

    Your diatribe is packed full of your usual, long-ago-debunked lies about deregulation, the Iraq War, and stolen elections ( note that more ACORN organizers were arrested this week for fraudulent registrations ).

    If Republicans are mentally ill, then why is it that you keep repeating falsehoods.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  54. Heavensent says it true: “We need to fix the coming insolvency of our entire health care and coverage system by making sure the Federal Government is insolvent.”

    Where are some grownups when you need them?

    BJTexs (a2cb5a)

  55. Unapologetic, if you are an MD what is a 99212?

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  56. BJTexs it is the one part of this I really can’t understand. The logic is so bizarre.

    Health care spending is out of control. The Private Insurers have failed. They are bankrupting the nation.

    We need the BANKRUPT US Federal Government which always SPENDS TRILLIONS MORE THAN BUDGETED will solve this financial crisis by taking over the system and regulating even more.

    And lots of “smart” people repeat this nonsense.

    I always bucket them in the Mentally Retarded Pumpers bucket.

    Like Ed, VietVet and Unapologetically Mexican’t

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  57. #56 Mexican’t, need some help Googling it?

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  58. Obama says much of the cost of his healthcare plan will be offset by rooting out graft and corruption in Medicare. If so, why not start with a serious examination into existing corruption and produce a clear and convincing demonstration that his administration is up to the task?

    Otherwise, Obama’s words are only the hollow promises of man who’s yet to prove he can actually cut the mustard.

    Ropelight (6f0b7c)

  59. Sorry. GFY and Die. Or move back to “sorry-ass” Mexico.

    ouch.

    I heard guy on a call in radio program this morning. He lost his job, has a family, preexisting conditions that prevent real work, can’t afford insurance for his family, but paid taxes his whole life until recently. There needs to be a better solution for him. Right now when he needs medical care, he goes to the hospital and just gets it. When asked who pays for it, he said he didn’t know. I do. And I’m OK with it.

    There needs to be a better solution but not some arrogant, dominating government plan that robs people of their choices, and imposes decisions on doctors. i know insurance companies are doing it, but I don’t want me government doing it …. too much power.

    I’ve always said the health insurance industry has conducted business as though they wanted to be put out of business by the government.

    quasimodo (4af144)

  60. VeV is off its meds again.

    JD (74e7ad)

  61. If they add graft and corruption to Medicare’s “Admin” costs ….. they would be lots higher than any private carrier.

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  62. Worst part I fucking hate Insurance Companies …..

    Another retard moment …..

    In front to Nurse and MDs: we have the best health care providers in the world.

    In front of Congress: our health care system does not work an certainly not compared to other countries.

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  63. Quasimodo: I like that idea about Medicare and Medicaid: Here’s a proposal the “ends” activists will howl about but makes perfect sense to me:

    Drop this craptacular bill. Now. Mr. President, You have two years to root out waste and corruption in Medicare and Medicaid. Succeed at achieving real reform and savings and then we’ll sit down and craft a common sense bill based upon results rather than hopiness.

    If you don’t succeed? Well, we’ll just go and craft our version of the bill with our new majority in Congress.

    BJTexs (a2cb5a)

  64. So I was right. He didn’t have the correct data at first.And I thought it was a great speech. A game changer indeed. With it, he has achieved the one thing he needed to achieve. Get his base rallied in support. He also was able to bring back some needed independents back to his corner. A win for Obama.

    The Emperor (1b037c)

  65. A win is now classified as having Dems agree with you, based on incredibly skewed “polls” at CNN. Lovie, we knew you loved the speech before it was even given. We did not need you to tell us what we already knew.

    JD (ac8fb9)

  66. Here’s the thing – I don’t know that the pre-condition clauses should be eliminated. I have no particular love for insurance companies (I think they are close to evil, actually), yet my conservative beliefs make it difficult for me to impose my problems, some of which are self-imposed, on all y’all.

    Pre-condition clauses are standard in almost all types of insurance.

    Auto insurance policies do not pay for damage that occurred before the policy was issued.

    We’re rich enough, smart enough and civilized enough to provide healthcare for everyone. And because we can, we must.

    Apparently foolish enough as well.

    It is outright foolish to provide long-term health care to illegal aliens, or to child molesters who are out of jail.

    We are the first country in the history of the world to have obesity as a major problem of poverty.

    We are literally too generous.

    Michael Ejercito (833607)

  67. Wait..no way…NO WAY…

    Is there not going to be a Front Page Post about South Carolina’s Classy Joe Wilson?? What the hell is going on here? I’m shocked. It’s not like this place would have a slanted, warped. delusional spin to it. No, course not.

    Alright, fine then, plenty (LOL) online about him already, people are talking…talking…talking…he is the brave asshole that stepped into the spotlight for the whole country to witness the true ugly, ugly, disrespectful, obstructionist lying fear mongering face of the GOP.

    Okay, so if not Jumpin’ Joe Wilson the Genius, how about this Mike Duvall fatso sex-machine repub., from Orange County is it?? Nothin’ about him either eh? I thought this blog was big on California politics. Man is that a juicy and stomach turning story. Guys was literally in bed with lobbyists. The had him dripping out of them as the walked up and down the stairs. Cos the guy was a major stud. They even let him spank them.

    Dripping, spanking…now that’s what I call working for a living, as opposed to living off the taxpayers hard earned money and government handouts…

    I hear he’s stepped down and will now be dressing up as an Assclown Doodyhead and performing at Republican, Tea-bagger, birther children’s parties.

    Anyhow, Obama’s speech was electrifying. 2010 is going to be fun…fun…fun…60 vote dem majority for certain…

    Assclown doodyheads (2be977)

  68. Doodyhead – If Barcky did not insist on overtly lying to people’s faces, maybe people would not call him a liar. What color is the sky in your world?

    JD (9d8cb8)

  69. Aside from backing away from a number, I heard nothing new in substance. Are Dems really that easy to rally with emotion?

    jodetoad (059c35)

  70. This is quite the stupidest argument I’ve seen from both sides. 30 million or 40 million or 20 million – evidently the right thinks millions of uninsured are just fine – let’s just debate stupid numbers.

    JEA (3fc310)

  71. He lost his job, has a family, preexisting conditions that prevent real work, can’t afford insurance for his family, but paid taxes his whole life until recently.

    Good grief, the Obamabots are scraping the bottom of the barrel for their propagandists.

    Consider what he is saying:

    1) “I have pre-existing health conditions that prevent me from ever getting a job”

    2) “I lost my job”

    The two are mutually exclusive.

    North Dallas Thirty (416e07)

  72. 30 million or 40 million or 20 million – evidently the right thinks millions of uninsured are just fine – let’s just debate stupid numbers.

    If you can’t define a problem correctly, it is virtually guaranteed that you won’t get the solution right.

    In one perspective, this shows the idiocy of the Black Messiah. He wants “change”, but he can’t even intelligently identify the scope of the problem.

    On the other hand, I think this simply represents the lies of a propagandist. Obama won’t tell the truth, which is that he wants to take control of trillions of dollars that he can then redirect to his cronies while slashing services and punish industries. The uninsured are just the excuse that a neo-communist uses to take control by fiat, just as Lenin and Stalin claimed they were acting on behalf of the “working class”.

    North Dallas Thirty (416e07)

  73. Remember folks, JEA is tired of the hyper-partisanship from both sides.

    JD (87cf21)

  74. Something just occurred to me.

    A year ago when gas prices were $4 a gallon or more, Congress called oil company executives to hearings to ask them to justify high gas prices.

    Is Congress hauling in doctors and hospital administrators to ask therm to justify price gouging?

    This is quite the stupidest argument I’ve seen from both sides. 30 million or 40 million or 20 million – evidently the right thinks millions of uninsured are just fine – let’s just debate stupid numbers.

    Numbers always matter.

    Michael Ejercito (833607)

  75. The Left has mandated that everyone must have auto liability insurance. Now, they want to impose health-care insurance on everyone, but they know it will require a government subsidy for those too poor to purchase it (yet, they felt no such compassion for those who could not/cannot afford auto liability insurance – they just tell them to use public transportation). I suppose that next we will hear heartrending stories of families left impoverished by the unexpected demise of a bread-winner sans life-insurance; and so, the requirement of life-insurance will be imposed on all Americans too.
    More and more I’m remembering as old Soviet saying:
    We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us!

    VEVian seems not only to be off his meds, he seems to be exhibiting the onset of Alzheimers as his rants become more and more disconnected to reality.
    He can probably blame that on Agent Orange too.

    AD - RtR/OS! (5b5739)

  76. Sigh. Ok, let’s start with auto insurance. “Everyone” is supposed to have it. What if some of “everyone” doesn’t even have a drivers license – gets pulled over, no insurance, no Id, no nothing? Result? Hello? I’d be interested to hear if the cops are enforcing this and if so, how. Issue a ticket? To who? The guy with no ID? Wow, if no papers, he is really going to show up at court. So if no sanction, no enforcement – what do you think the compliance will be? Same for healthcare – promises about no coverage for illegal aliens – but [wink-wink] we really won’t be asking anyone to “prove” citizenship – it could “chill” certain groups desire to seek healthcare (like, say ILLEGAL ALIENS?).

    Really – the whole issue about illegal alien coverage is not the big deal to me – the big deal is someone (Barack?) LYING to my face about it while asking me to trust him with a significant portion of our entire economy. This issue is a TELL – a hint at what cards he is holding. Joe Wilson was rude – Joe Wilson should (and did) apologize. Joe Wilson should not attend another Presidential speech – for Joe Wilson was right and blurted out the truth in an awkward manner. This shall not be tolerated in Washington.

    Californio (9b0d11)

  77. JEA, I think it’s fair to say that if we’re going to harm the heathcare of the 300 million people who like what they have in order to give ‘free’ healthcare to the 10 million who need it, that yes, the quantities matter.

    I think the idea that ‘something’ must be done because of the ‘crisis’ is just way to scam us.

    Hundreds of millions of people stand to see their healthcare get a lot worse. Apparently, Obama doesn’t care about that if he can bribe up some votes, but this is the reason Obama is now an unpopular president.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  78. Obama will not improve the lot of those without health insurance.

    He simply wants to run more money through his hands for the purposes of allocating some of it to politically connected supporters.

    The pleas to help the uninsured are disgusting, because the uninsured won’t get help because of the crisis that will be caused by the government.

    This entire bill is a scam. It is simply a Chicago mob money grab.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  79. “I heard guy on a call in radio program this morning. He lost his job, has a family, preexisting conditions that prevent real work, can’t afford insurance for his family, but paid taxes his whole life until recently. There needs to be a better solution for him.”

    LOL. There’s always been a solution. If you don’t like the way your insurance company works, start your own. There’s millions of bleeding hearts in this country, including more multi-millionaires than you can shake a stick (to help finance it), doctors, nurses, etc. to do the work.

    All you have to do is organize your own private plan and extend it to those who don’t have insurance.

    But, I think we all know that’s not what the bleeding hearts really want. They don’t really want to help people, they want power over people is what they want.

    Dave Surls (d45e49)

  80. “CHICAGO — Campaigning for president has been very good for Sen. Barack Obama’s pocketbook, with his household income jumping from $991,296 in 2006 to $4.2 million in 2007, tax records show.”

    “The Illinois Democrat had a net profit from book sales of $3.9 million, according to a copy of a 2007 tax return released Wednesday by Obama and his wife, Michelle. That total includes $169,706 in foreign income from overseas sales of his two best-selling books…”

    El Jefe and people like him could take 95% of the money they earn and use it to start a private health insurance program that extends benefits to the uninsured, no problemo…but they aren’t going to.

    That’s because they want to force people like me to pay for their “good” deeds…while they keep their millions…and all the while they’re telling me how greedy I am and what an obstuctionist I am, and all that good stuff.

    It’s pretty funny actually.

    Dave Surls (d45e49)

  81. evidently the right thinks millions of uninsured are just fine – let’s just debate stupid numbers.

    Said our own little Barbie Doll – “numbers are soooo hard!” Do you actually have a checking account, and do you attempt to balance it each month, or do you go on writing checks that your account can’t cash? If the answer to that is yes, congratulations, you’re the model of gov’t accountability! Free dollars for everyone! Yay!

    Dmac (a93b13)

  82. JEA, the why of the uninsured is what matters, and the numbers are key to understanding that. We find that the 46 million number is an exaggeration, and the why is buried in it.

    Taking over the entire healthcare industry is not the answer if only a handful of people are without coverage.

    SPQR (5811e9)

  83. Shorter translation: What was important before (46 million) has changed, and it’s embarrassing, so please change the subject.

    If the numbers are all over the place, it’s a good chance that the information is a lie or wildly inaccurate. That’s important.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  84. Man, you know that Obama’s speech last night was lame, because all of the electronic brownshirt O-bots are out in force today…

    I guess they’re all wee-wee’d up with no place to go!

    Lucky us…

    Bob Reed (99fc1b)

  85. Dave Surls: So your advice to the caller without insurance is for him to start his own insurance company?

    So, if, for instance, I do not have a direct flight to Atlanta from my city and I want one, I should start my own airline?

    What the?

    You’ve been watching too many movies. Life doesn’t work like that, all neat and simple. Stop watching “Dave” and go pick up a book! :)

    Myron (6a93dd)

  86. North Dallas thirty,
    1. the very last thing I am is an Obamabot. I’m very conservative both socially and fiscally.
    2. your mutually exclusive comparison is not mutually exclusive in anyway – you just created a straw man by your wording. I know you had to because otherwise you didn’t have a point to make.

    quasimodo (4af144)

  87. Yeah – it’s called “permanent disability”.

    Leviticus (f0f166)

  88. Myron – I think if you want a flight to Atlanta, and one is not available, you should get the government to take someone else’s money to pay for your ticket, and then force an airline to provide a flight that was not likely profitable for them, just to make you happy.

    JD (191455)

  89. quasimodo, just so you know, ‘promising one really one conservative in spite of comments’ is the core characteristic of mobies and concern trolls.

    When you defend yourself from that charge by saying ‘I really am conservative’ you only make yourself look like a moby.

    You don’t come across as one to me, even slightly.

    Who cares where you put yourself on the affiliation scale, anyway? It has no bearing on your arguments here. Make your argument, pro or con, and if it’s a liberal or conservative one, let it stand on its own.

    If you need to bolster your claims by saying something personal about yourself, your claims are weak. But I don’t think you need to do that. You think it’s OK that other patients pay for someone’s emergency care. I think it’s better than denying them care, but not OK.

    you think we need a better solution, and I have heard a lot of compromises like vouchers that make more sense, so you’re probably right.

    But how have insurance companies run themselves poorly? Most of the problems are from excess regulation. If you don’t think insurance companies are run poorly, start an insurance company (I guess that would be a bad idea considering Obama clearly wants to destroy all health insurance companies).

    Juan (bd4b30)

  90. posted before I could edit. But you get my drift.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  91. Juan – quasimodo is a good guy. I do not agree with him on this point, buþ he is usually on the right, or Right, side.

    JD (191455)

  92. He sounds like it to me too. I just think defending yourself from moby charges by saying you’re really conservative is not necessary.

    Sadly, the tactic of astroturfing causes a lot of deep problems like this. I was called a wuss when I said that I wasn’t sure the drug dealer shooting drug thieves was OK. It’s worse than mistrust… now we think people are doing some kind of manipulation.

    David Axelrod is truly deeply unpatriotic.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  93. Oh, I see what I did. When I said ‘you don’t come across as one to me”, I meant quasi doesn’t come across as a moby, not that quasi doesn’t come across as a conservative.

    LOL

    Juan (bd4b30)

  94. “Dave Surls: So your advice to the caller without insurance is for him to start his own insurance company?”

    Spare me. That isn’t what I said…and, you know it isn’t what I said.

    “If you don’t like the way your insurance company works, start your own. There’s millions of bleeding hearts in this country, including more multi-millionaires than you can shake a stick (to help finance it), doctors, nurses, etc. to do the work.”

    Liberals, could start a co-op private health insurance program of their own, with millions of members, ANYTIME they wanted to…only they don’t want to.

    Dave Surls (d45e49)

  95. LOL. There’s always been a solution. If you don’t like the way your insurance company works, start your own. There’s millions of bleeding hearts in this country, including more multi-millionaires than you can shake a stick (to help finance it), doctors, nurses, etc. to do the work.

    All you have to do is organize your own private plan and extend it to those who don’t have insurance.

    But, I think we all know that’s not what the bleeding hearts really want. They don’t really want to help people, they want power over people is what they want.

    Ted Kennedy had a huge fortune.

    Could he have not started his own private health plan and include the uninsured of Massachussetts?

    Michael Ejercito (833607)

  96. That Mexican guy said:

    We’re rich enough, smart enough and civilized enough to provide healthcare for everyone. And because we can, we must.

    Why?

    Also, driving a car is not a right. It’s a privilege. If a state requires you to have insurance to enjoy the privilege of steering a pollution-creating SUV on public roads, so be it. Despite the President’s glib comparison, it really doesn’t apply

    Inexpensive health care also is not a right.

    Personally, I want everyone to have access to reasonably priced health care.

    If you want to know why health care is expensive, you may want to research why the “successful” Medicare/Medicaid programs are also successful.

    Health-care providers are in the business of healiing. However, government regulations require them to provide their services for the most unhealthy at affordable prices. So those prices are set.

    Insurance companies are in the business of making money. They do this by cost-risk-benefit formulations.

    But when the government decides that they have to meet certain price guidelines for elder and disabled care, they do so.

    Why does this enter into the equation. I really didn’t understand it until my second child was born, more than 15 years ago.

    I received an itemized bill from the hospital that enumerated all the expenses incurred by my wife during labor.

    Of course, most of the bill was paid by insurance. However, the bill included anesthesia, an epidural, and even extra-strength Tylenol, none of which she received.

    So why does this matter?

    It wasn’t because the hospital or the insurance company were evil. Heck the insurance company paid for treatment she didn’t receive. I don’t think the hospital was evil because they delivered to my wife and me a beautiful, healthy girl.

    So, why were these charges made for things that didn’t happen?

    I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe, just maybe, health-care providers have a schedule of reimbursable services that the insurance companies will pay.

    In an effort to be more efficient and to qualify for federal reimbursement, both the hospital and the insurance companies follow these schedules to keep Uncle Sam off their back, no matter whether the services qualify under Medicare/Medicaid.

    I could be wrong, and if I am, please correct me. I never researched it as thoroughly as I should have.

    But, when my elderly father died after suffering a stroke, the same thing happened. Except for different medications and treatments.

    Ag80 (f3cd33)

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