Patterico's Pontifications

9/7/2009

Dumbass Federal Judges Push Release of Criminals Who Are Bunked ALMOST As Tight As Sailors in a Submarine

Filed under: Court Decisions,Crime,General,Morons — Patterico @ 1:45 am

[Editor’s note: if you’re mortally offended by profanity, you might want to skip this post. However, those who are shocked to see the f-word on a blog should be even more shocked to see 40,000 state prisoners unleashed on our state. Consider being shocked by that which is truly shocking. — P]

My wife, God bless her, just had us watch the saddest movie I have ever seen. Tears were streaming down my face and I wasn’t ashamed.

The movie is called “Dear Zachary: A Letter to a Son About His Father.” I don’t want to give away anything about the movie, but it is utterly heartbreaking, and a reminder that government has an obligation to protect its citizens from violence, and to remove violent people from the streets. Enough said about that; I don’t want to spoil it for you.

And hey! what do you know? It just so happens that I see this movie when this comes across my computer screen:

A panel of federal judges, accusing California officials of obstruction, on Thursday denied the state’s request to delay an order to produce a plan for reducing its prison population by 40,000 inmates.

I have a message for this panel of federal judges — which the L.A. Times doesn’t say and will never, ever say are all Democrat appointees:

Honorable Lawrence Karlton: fuck you.

Honorable Thelton Henderson: fuck you.

And you, the right Honorable Stephen Reinhardt: fuck you.

People are going to die because of this decision you have made. Don’t pretend they won’t, because they will. Lily Burk died at the hand of a petty thief, you know. I’m told he did something bad a long, long time ago — but he’s just a petty thief now. He’s non-violent. Just like the 40,000 non-violent people you assholes are about to release.

And why are you doing this? Because convicted felons in California aren’t entitled to luxury five-star accommodations. Why, they’re crammed into their cells in conditions almost as cramped as this:

Submarine Bunks 01

and this:

Submarine Bunks 1

and this:

Submarine Bunks

It’s a wonder submarine sailors didn’t kill each other during WWII. You can tell from the grim looks on their faces that they’re about to engage in a bloody race riot.

I’m sorry I’m just a little profane here. But somehow, typing a couple of four-letter words in a blog post doesn’t seem as extreme as writing an order that is going to kill people. So fuck you, dumbass judges. When the first person dies at the hand of one of these criminals you released, I’m going to be here to shove it right up your ass.

And if you’re wondering why I’m angry, go watch the movie I just finished watching, why don’t you, and learn about the real-life consequences of stupid fucking decisions made by stupid liberal judges.

P.S. Once you’ve seen the movie, the phrase “Keystone Cops” will take on a whole new meaning.

UPDATE 9-7-09 11:50 a.m.: A reply to some reactions in the comments.

One commenter says I am threatening the judges. Yes: I am “threatening” to remind the public, after someone dies, that it is these judges’ fault. It should be obvious from the context that I’m not physically threatening them — although it should be obvious that their decision is physically threatening the citizenry of California.

To the commenters who say that the judges are really just doing their job, and that it’s really the legislature’s fault: again, look at the photos of the sailors. Those are the sorts of conditions these judges have declared unconstitutional. The decision by these three liberal hacks was not compelled by the law. It was activism, pure and simple, and it’s going to result in people dying. It’s about time someone got passionate about that — and so, while it’s a little out of character for me to curse, maybe doing so will get people’s attention because it’s out of character.

Finally, one commenter says: “Patrick: As a member of the bar, you should not be cursing judges.” Hey, if they want to bring me up on disciplinary charges for cursing them and their lousy decision, I say: bring it on. That would be a great way to focus a spotlight on what is about to happen to this state. And I would win eventually, because guess what? we still have a First Amendment in this country.

So fuck them.

183 Responses to “Dumbass Federal Judges Push Release of Criminals Who Are Bunked ALMOST As Tight As Sailors in a Submarine”

  1. Normally I would be upset about one of my signature lines being stolen, but you use it so well, all I can do is applaud. 8)

    Scott Jacobs (d027b8)

  2. Remember. A real Congress can get rid of these judges.
    We need to put Impeachment on the list.
    The ever growing list.
    Yogi Berra said it best,
    “When you come to a fork in the road, take it.”
    Well, we are there. I am fearful, but hopeful that the ballot box will decide which fork we take. But,
    “When in the course of human events…”

    Paul Albers (663ee0)

  3. Dear Zachary is one of the best and most moving movies I have ever seen. I highly recommend seeing it. Get it on Netflix.
    The saddest thing is that it is a true story.

    HH (0922fa)

  4. If California didn’t spend its money so stupid this wouldn’t be a problem.

    oh. Either that or when people said hey you need more prison cells they thought they said stem cells and six billion dollars later we still get a giggle out of that. Communication is so key with these California ones.

    happyfeet (6b707a)

  5. The FSOB who molested a friend’s daughters was released on parole and ran away to Central America to his cell mate’s family. He’s been stalking my friend and her now grown up daughters on the internet. The US Marshals say they can’t extradite him. Awesome. So now he’s molesting little girls in Guatemala.

    When you shove this decision up their ass, I’ll grab a leg and help you.

    Vivian Louise (e35449)

  6. What do you want a judge to do when the petitioner makes his case and the respondent does not? There is nothing more difficult in the law than getting a 1983 release of a prisoner. The “fuck you” should be directed to the California Attorney General and not the court.

    nk (df76d4)

  7. Liked the photographs. The first shows soldiers on an Army transport ship – class A berthing – only four tiers. The soldier on the right is holding an automatic rifle and it is a pre-invasion photo. The second photo is submariners and, I think, that the third photo shows Marines.

    Of course, these were pre-invasion voyages so “luxury” berths. In “peactime,” when I made my three government sponsored cruises, they stacked us five high in the troop compartments.

    Those Federal judges have been clueless for a long time. In 1956, a suit was brought against Fort Dix claiming intolerable conditions in the Post Stockade. An investigation by a Federal judge found that the inmates were being housed in pre-WWI two story wooden barracks.

    The barracks were set up to house 24 prisoners – twelve to a floor. The judge was very upset that the toilet facilities and shower rooms had clogged toilets and blocked drains. He ordered that the prisoners be moved into the newly built modern brick barracks.

    So, the Fort Dix authorities had to comply but then, a problem, where to put the basic training company that was scheduled to occuppy the new barracks?

    Simple solution – cut some large holes in the old stockade fence and give it to the basic trainees. Of course, as these basic trainees had not done anything wrong, there would be no ACLU outcry about their accommodtions. The building’s that had held, at most twenty-four prisoners, now held two basic training platoons of 48 men plus some cadre.

    Those terrible toilet and shower areas, without the presence of the prior inmates, were cleaned and kept in top condition by the basic trainees – in fact, one of the barracks won the “Best Barracks” competition.

    A place that had been a “hell hole” because of twenty-four or less inmates was now a fairly pleasant place to live for ninety-six trainees.

    I know this because I was a member of November Company, Third Training Regiment from September 1956 to November 1956 and we were referred to as the “Stackade Company.”

    I would love to discuss this and other things with some of those Federal Judges. Clueless -the lot of them.

    Longwalker (4e0dda)

  8. A place that had been a “hell hole” because of [the malignant neglect of] twenty-four or less inmates was now a fairly pleasant place to live for ninety-six trainees [with access to tools and cleaning supplies, good food, Army training, and direction by a DI].

    nk (df76d4)

  9. After this putrid mess of the kenyan is removed by the voters, it is time to IMPEACH Liberal Judges, then put the entire ACLU on a chain gang.

    PCD (f6fa57)

  10. Comment by Longwalker — 9/7/2009 @ 4:30 am

    Thank you for serving.

    Comment by nk — 9/7/2009 @ 4:57 am
    A place that had been a “hell hole” because of [the malignant neglect of] twenty-four or less inmates was now a fairly pleasant place to live for ninety-six trainees [with access to tools and cleaning supplies, good food, Army training, and direction by a DI].

    nk – you assume malignant neglect – what is your evidence? Or do you just assume malignant neglect everytime someone is convicted of a crime and incarcerated?

    In regards to your statement about the working order of the toilets/showers when the training company took over the barracks – You forget one very salient point – the troops with the working toilets aren’t criminals. The troops are engaging in, participating in, active non-criminal life. They are acting responsibly to ensure a clean living space. Why? Becasue they are invested in their future by virtue of their law-abiding living.

    Have you never visited a prison where the inmates regularly stop up the toilets and foul their own living spaces? Have you never done any research on the behavior of criminals?

    Law-breakers behave differently from law-abiders.

    Vivian Louise (e35449)

  11. Vivian, that is the point nk was making.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  12. Oh, and 17 laps around the missile compartment on a really BIG submarine is supposedly about a mile…

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  13. Thank you, EW1(SG).

    nk (df76d4)

  14. Our esteemed host angrily wrote:

    When the first person dies at the hand of one of these criminals you released, I’m going to be here to shove it right up your ass.

    I hate to say this, but without some sort of disclaimer that this would be a literary sodomization, you have just threatened three sitting federal judges. As a publicly known assistant district attorney, you’ve just put your job on the line.

    I absolutely agree with the sentiment, and think that the solution is to build concentration camps out in the desert, and house the prisoners there, but that won’t happen, either.

    It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Governator told the judges, thanks, but no thanks, we aren’t releasing anybody; se if you can get the President to send in federal troops to release them for you.

    The serious Dana (474dfc)

  15. a few years back, the Youth Authority got with the CA ARNG folks at Camp Roberts to create a w*rk training program on base. the CYA people came around to inspect the barracks that had been selected to house the poor misunderstood dears, and were horrified at the primitive conditions. (they were standard Club Bob barracks, the kind that GI’s are still housed in today.)

    only after they were retrofitted with swamp coolers and other accouterments of civilization were they fit for the “Future Felons of America”.

    the program ran for a few years and was then eliminated, so the converted buildings were turned into VIP quarters.

    Soldiers continue to get the same unimproved WW2 barracks to this day, because, after all, nothing is too good for the Soldiers, but we have to give them something.

    we have lots of open desert and concertina wire is relatively cheap…. i say we use those facts to our advantage. prison is supposed to be uncomfortable, so you don’t want to go back. fuck the judges AND the prisoners both.

    redc1c4 (fb8750)

  16. Could you possibly make your point, express your indignation, without the juvenile “fuck you” lines? That’s about on the same level as Van Jones (the dear departed green jobs fellow) calling Republicans “assholes”.

    PJK (5977ef)

  17. #14 The serious Dana:

    but without some sort of disclaimer that this would be a literary sodomization,

    Dana, I think it quite clear from the context (“…I’m going to be here…”) that any contemplated sodomization would literally be literary.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  18. Patrick: As a member of the bar, you should not be cursing judges.

    That rule is especially true in this case where the California governor and legislature are the ones at fault for failing to build enough prisons to hold the state prison population.

    slp (5cc504)

  19. We are watching California die.

    I am amazed at how many educated people (liberals) who think people in prison should be freed, under the theory that the US has more per capita felons in prison than any other country. My view, maybe other countries should follow our system of justice and convict more bad guys.

    Patricia (7aaa75)

  20. Would mass excutions be preferable to you?

    David Ehrenstein (2550d9)

  21. EW(1)SG: I noticed the word “here,” but the word is too vague, and doesn’t present an absolute defense; “here” could mean Los Angeles County just as easily as it could mean Patterico’s Pontifications. I’d note here that it wasn’t Van Jones job performance that led him to discover that he had resigned, but what he said off the job.

    The concerned Dana (474dfc)

  22. How long did those sailors live like that. And how do you think they like being likened to prisoners? Seriously, you can’t tell a difference between life in a prison and on a ship/submarine?

    imdw (490521)

  23. Your citizens will be raped and murdered until they agree to pay higher taxes.

    Amphipolis (8cd9a3)

  24. Why don’t you look it up for once in your life? All of the accounts I’ve read about life aboard troop ships during WWII suggests conditions that were much more cramped that outlined above. In many cases regarding troops being sent to the far Pacific islands to fight the Japanese (I’m thinking of Iwo, Peleiu and Okinawa), troops were suspended in hammocks in suffocating quarters many floors below deck, and some resorted to sleeping out in the open, in order to get some relief from the stifling heat. Many lived that way for months, since they had to make numerous stops to refuel for the long journey, as well as follow a zigzagging course in order to avoid enemy Jap subs. It’s no wonder why many of them threw up constantly during the trip, only to have to climb down a number of stories using rope ladders, then stumbling onto the LST’s to take them to storm the beaches.

    Dmac (a93b13)

  25. Vivian, that is the point nk was making.

    Comment by EW1(SG)

    I don’t know. Maybe I’m too literal but I’ve wondered a few times lately what nk means.

    Seriously, you can’t tell a difference between life in a prison and on a ship/submarine?

    Comment by imdw

    Speaking of being too literal. Life in a prison is hell. Just look at the Chino prison after the inmates tore it up. Why did they do this ? It was a race riot between blacks and Latinos. It has nothing to do with housing and everything to do with the criminal mind.

    I spent some time in those Camp Roberts barracks and didn’t have the sensitivity to realize they were too awful for juvenile offenders.

    I also agree that California is dying. I just hope the country isn’t doing the same.

    MIke K (4baa9f)

  26. Have you never visited a prison where the inmates regularly stop up the toilets and foul their own living spaces? Have you never done any research on the behavior of criminals?

    In my first criminal defense job, about twenty-five years ago, our office had to withdraw from two cases because the sheriff put one of our clients into the same cell with another of our clients who was a homosexual rapist.

    nk (df76d4)

  27. Yes, people will die & the liberals do not seem to care. We have already seen that when several days after his parole a “non violent” parolee kidnapped and murdered a young lady during a robbery. The myth that these are all “non violent drug offenders” being released is absolutely false. Their current offense may be for drugs but many of these about to be released have a past history of violence.

    It should be no secret that when you release these people upon society crime and violence goes up.

    Duke Nukem (d9d8ce)

  28. #20 The Concerned Dana:

    but the word is too vague, and doesn’t present an absolute defense;

    No, it doesn’t present an absolute defense, but when I think of “Where do I find Patterico? Why, Patterico.com, of course!”

    Extending the context further to include Patterico’s posting and policy regarding threatening comments makes it pretty clear that (to me, anyway) that his speech was figurative.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  29. For those with Netflix, “Dear Zachary” is also available on Instant Viewing.

    GB FL (828a3d)

  30. Mike Dukakis call your office.

    daleyrocks (718861)

  31. #21:

    How long did those sailors live like that. And how do you think they like being likened to prisoners? Seriously, you can’t tell a difference between life in a prison and on a ship/submarine?

    You f*cking moron. I spent a number of years living like that, and often, the conditions pictured were the best of the conditions that I lived in as a sailor.

    As far as being likened to prisoners, sailors (and airmen, soldiers, and Marines) are quite well aware that they have voluntarily forfeited a number of their civil liberties; and that prisoners (federal, anyway) are required to be maintained in better quarters than our servicemembers are. It is a comparison they often make amongst themselves, sometimes even in jest.

    There is absolutely nothing serious about you, or the ass you rode in on.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  32. This kind of stuff is disheartening. I am not willing to release one prisoner because of crowding. If necessary the court should be ordering prisons to be built. This is about suppy and demand. If a balance must be set the solution needs to be on the supply of facilities/beds and not lowering demand (removing prisoners).

    FOP Vermillion (61e0e0)

  33. #24 Mike K.:

    I don’t know. Maybe I’m too literal but I’ve wondered a few times lately what nk means.

    I just chalk it up to him being Greek. 😉

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  34. No, Mike K is right. I sound ambiguous because I am. I see both sides of the issue. I want these guys locked up but I don’t like the way we lock them up.

    nk (df76d4)

  35. The way we run our prisons only makes sense if we never ever release any prisoner because we practically guarantee that when they come out they will be worse than when they went in.

    nk (df76d4)

  36. BTW, that Federal Judge did not stop there. I finished basic and AIT and was sent to Fort Riley, Kansas. I was assigned to a company in the 16th Inf Regt of the 1st Infantry Division.

    After about two weeks, I stood my first Post Guard. I spent the first part of my tour guarding a motor pool. Then, for the day tour, I worked as a “prisoner chaser.” I rode “shotgun” (with a real shotgun) on a garbage truck as two prisoners picked up the garbage from the various mess halls.

    Then, under my stern supervision, they rode the truck to the disposal point and shoveled all of the waste off the truck. At the end of the day, I supervised them as they gave the truck a good washing down and escorted them back to the stockade.

    Two weeks later, I stood my second Post Guard. After a night assignment guarding the Main Post PX, I was told to return to my company, change into fatigues and report back to the guardhouse. That Federal Judge had determined that making prisoners pick up garbage constituted “cruel and unusual punishment.” So,from then on, the garbage would be picked up by the Post Guard.

    Later, in Berlin, our commander decided that, for those prisoners who were serving short sentences in the Berlin stockade, he would institute a “work release” program.

    Those prisoners, on a normal duty day, would train with their units and only return to the stockade for the night. When the unit was in the field, the prisoners would spend the entire time with their unit.

    The ACLU, acting on behalf or the prisoners, got another Federal Judge in New York City to deem that pulling normal military duties constituted “cruel and unusual” punishment.

    I just love those judges.

    Longwalker (4e0dda)

  37. “I spent a number of years living like that, and often, the conditions pictured were the best of the conditions that I lived in as a sailor.”

    You didn’t get off the boat for years?

    “As far as being likened to prisoners, sailors (and airmen, soldiers, and Marines) are quite well aware that they have voluntarily forfeited a number of their civil liberties; and that prisoners (federal, anyway) are required to be maintained in better quarters than our servicemembers are. It is a comparison they often make amongst themselves, sometimes even in jest.”

    Maybe we can just ask our prosecutor friend whether he’d feel safer in a crowded prison or a crowded submarine. I’d guess people are going with the program a bit more on the latter than the former.

    imdw (e66d8d)

  38. It’s something like having 40,000 Willie Hortons out there, all at once.

    Official Internet Data Office (4e6ad1)

  39. #36:

    You didn’t get off the boat for years?

    I spent eight straight years assigned to sea duty aboard a number of ships. So, yes, these were my everyday living conditions for considerably longer than many minor felons spend incarcerated.

    Maybe we can just ask our prosecutor friend whether he’d feel safer in a crowded prison or a crowded submarine.

    WTF does that have to do with anything that has preceded that comment in this thread?

    As I said, there isn’t a damn thing serious about you. You are a joke. And a very poor one, at that.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  40. _____________________________

    The “fuck you” should be directed to the California Attorney General and not the court.

    Why? The ruling from the 3 judges is based on their ideology as much as reality. If anything — and knowing the ass-backwards mentality and history of an ultra-liberal jurist like Stephen Reinhardt — the interpretation of the information presented to them was so twisted and distorted by their “progressive” perceptions, that even if the prisons were spacious and wonderful, they’d still have struggled not to declare “Unacceptable!! We rule in favor of the plaintiff!!”

    After all, these are the same type of idiotic “progressives” who will give the benefit of the doubt to, say, an OJ Simpson, a Jeremiah Wright, a Hugo Chavez and the former president of Honduras. The type who believe that because the compassion and humanity emanating from their hearts are so beautiful, a lack of common sense in their “lefty” brains is but a minor shortcoming.

    I’d love to see all the freed convicts directed to and released in the neighborhoods where Reinhardt, Karlton and Hendersen reside. Neighborhoods probably full of limousine liberals who can at least afford sturdy entry gates, high walls and private security patrols.

    Mark (411533)

  41. #33 nk:

    I sound ambiguous because I am.

    Understandable. As you are aware, I have a great deal of sympathy for people whose behavior is affected by addiction. However, we are often confronted with difficult choices. And given the choice here, it appears we are stuck with Hobson’s option, unless and until moneys can be freed from ineffective uses in California to pay for new facilities.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  42. #40 EW1: Perhaps that should read “empathy,” rather than “sympathy” above.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  43. “…How long did those sailors live like that…”, and for other purposes:

    In WW-2, your ID card, under “Separation Date”, said: Duration. You were in until it was over, or you were dead, or too severely injured to be assigned to combat again.

    imdw once again demonstrates its’ idocy!

    As to Camp Roberts:
    I drive by that location several times/year, and am continually disgusted by the external state of disrepair of the facilities there at what is purportedly the HQ of the CA National Guard. I can only imagine what the interiors of all those should-be-torn-down WW-2 buildings look like – and I do know having resided for 9 months in like accomodations at two bases in TX during the early-60’s.
    Camp Roberts is a disgrace to every CA administration that has allowed this sore to fester.

    Reinhardt, et al:
    This is just a continuum of this shit-head’s “judicial philosophy” of taking the needle out of the arm of cretins, applied to a lower level:
    First take them off Death Row, then put them on-the-streets.
    If this were TX, or some other state with rational thinking, the citizenry would apply a solution to the rampant crime wave that will result; but, here in compassionate, progressive CA where getting a CCW is virtually impossible, we’ll have to wait until one of these poor mis-understood victims of society’s deprivation of their souls, actually breaks into someone’s abode to have the legal justification to “terminate with extreme prejudice” a POS who should be rotting in a man-made Hell!

    Oh, BTW, we do have a ready-made “concentration camp” in the desert for these kiddies: Fort Irwin! I’m sure that Reinhardt and his buds would have no problem if we just swapped accomodations with the Army. We’ll put the prisoners at Fort Irwin, and the Army can use San Quentin, Folsom, Soledad, and Pelican Bay for barracks.

    Many times on this site I have advocated – sometimes in jest, other times sarcastically – that what this state needs is a Joe Arpaio to deal with our “corrections” problem.
    We need a Joe Arpaio as GOVERNOR, to take-names and kick-ass from one side of the state to the other.

    AD - RtR/OS! (fad78f)

  44. “A panel of federal judges, accusing California officials of obstruction, on Thursday denied the state’s request to delay an order to produce a plan for reducing its prison population by 40,000 inmates.”

    Shoot, why don’t the feds reopen their WWII concentration camps and we’ll store these guys there? If those camps were good enough for totally innocent people, they ought to be good enough for convicted criminals.

    Dave Surls (c9eba9)

  45. I’d guess people are going with the program a bit more on the latter than the former.

    Comment by imdw — 9/7/2009 @ 8:26 am

    imdw – There are reasons for that, I suppose. Ever hear the phrase “crime and punishment.”

    daleyrocks (718861)

  46. OIDO wrote:

    It’s something like having 40,000 Willie Hortons out there, all at once.

    Probably not. What this will really do is force the Golden State to prioritize prisoners, and release the 40,000 who are deemed least likely to commit violent crimes. In effect, this is federally-mandated release for drug possession offenders, something that not a few Patterico readers would support anyway.

    Of course, it will also mean that whatever white-collar criminals you have locked up in state prisons will be released, and there will be a pushing downward of violent criminals from maximum-security to medium security facilities.

    California may be about to reach the point in which burglary and theft and embezzlement are no longer crimes for which you can be incarcerated.

    The realistic Dana (474dfc)

  47. “I have a message for this panel of federal judges — which the L.A. Times doesn’t say and will never, ever say are all Democrat appointees:”

    Ya gotta love Democrats. They have no problem with drafting millions of guys into the armed forces and sending them off to live (or die) in garden spots like the Mekong Delta or even worse…France, but they get all offended when convicts are living three to a room.

    What a world.

    Dave Surls (c9eba9)

  48. “Seriously, you can’t tell a difference between life in a prison and on a ship/submarine?”
    Comment by imdw — 9/7/2009 @ 7:22 am

    The difference is obvious, people on a ship or submarine in wartime could be dead within the next 5 minutes at anytime, day or night.

    I rarely use or endorse vulgarity, but in our vulgar culture, it may be hard to adequately convey the depths of one’s disdain and contempt without resorting to it. Turning lose killers and rapists upon the innocent is about as good as an occasion as any.

    When the time comes, let us know how we can help. (Figuratively, of course; no one intends to physically harm the judges, but we would like them to be held accountable, as possible, for the consequences of their actions).

    MD in Philly (d4f9fa)

  49. But, isn’t “crime” a construct of a moral code created by dead White European oppressors which must be replaced by an affirmation of the wonder and superiority of diversity in all of its’ manifestations — Such as the rampant criminality existant in some societies?

    Plus, we need to rehabilitate these miscreants, show them the errors of their old ways, and integrate them back into a society where they will be productive…oh, wait a minute, that would be denying their “diversity”…
    Oh Hell, just take them out and use the Cuban Solution:
    TO THE WALL, COMRADES!

    AD - RtR/OS! (fad78f)

  50. Mr Jacob’s attorney wrote:

    I want these guys locked up but I don’t like the way we lock them up.

    and

    The way we run our prisons only makes sense if we never ever release any prisoner because we practically guarantee that when they come out they will be worse than when they went in.

    This would be a good time for a detailed article on how you would do things differently. If you are going to say that we are doing things wrongly, I think that you ought to have some idea about how we could do them better.

    The Dana seeking more information (474dfc)

  51. “Fuck you”
    “Fuck you”
    “Fuck you”!!!
    So, is it now okay to use profanity on a public blog? Just askin’

    The Emperor (0c8c2c)

  52. I wouldn’t mind releasing them if we could wear side arms.

    Alta Bob (e53677)

  53. Comment by The Dana seeking more information — 9/7/2009 @ 9:12 am

    I’d go back to 1968 sentencing ranges. Mandatory minimum (twenty years) only for murder. I have no problem with three strikes laws but I would make the life sentence parolable.

    nk (df76d4)

  54. nk, that was argued in the run-up to the initiative election.
    The electorate wanted, and imposed, the Life sentence because we were tired of the recidivism.
    We were/are willing to give them two chances to straighten out their lives, after that we want them gone –
    they have broken the social compact and deserve to live among us no more.

    AD - RtR/OS! (fad78f)

  55. If the prisoners don’t constitute a threat to the people of California, why lock them up in the first place? They must be some sort of threat, and once released, they are once again a threat. If they are least likely to commit violent crimes, that doesn’t mean they are not likely at all to commit violent crimes, and they are much more likely than the average person with no criminal record to do so.

    I mentioned Willie Horton (who had, of course, a more violent record) to make the point that if you believe criminals should be incarcerated, then they should stay there, because there’s no upside to letting them out ahead of time.

    If the law says that certain “non-violent” offenders should be in prison, then they should be there. But the judges, in effect, just removed certain laws from the books, because now there is no punishment.

    Official Internet Data Office (4e6ad1)

  56. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Governator told the judges, thanks, but no thanks, we aren’t releasing anybody; se if you can get the President to send in federal troops to release them for you.

    I can only hope that Governor Schwarzenegger has the courage to summon the National Guard and order them to block the prisoner release.

    Shoot, why don’t the feds reopen their WWII concentration camps and we’ll store these guys there? If those camps were good enough for totally innocent people, they ought to be good enough for convicted criminals.

    Very good point.

    The ACLU, acting on behalf or the prisoners, got another Federal Judge in New York City to deem that pulling normal military duties constituted “cruel and unusual” punishment.

    I just love those judges.

    Why do we even obey judges?

    What happens if we refuse to obey the court?

    Michael Ejercito (833607)

  57. Xrlq links to a story about a bleeding-heart, liberal state’s legislatively-expressed opinion of its prison system.

    nk (df76d4)

  58. There’s lots of empty space between Barstow and Needles just begging for settlers.

    PatAZ (9d1bb3)

  59. I’d go back to 1968 sentencing ranges.

    Kum bah wah!

    Take a trip in the way-back machine to a time (ie, 1970s) when crime started to really rocket.

    I’m reminded of the young woman who was murdered by a transient in LA several weeks ago. She apparently was a painfully naive, stereotypically foolish do-gooder, a classic enabler to her killer right up until the end. Security camera images of her and her hostage-taker indicated she was treating the situation like a walk in the park.

    She paid for her foolishness with her life. Regrettably, the foolishness — the “lefty” idiocy — of the 3 judges will have deadly consequences for everyone but the 3 judges themselves.

    Mark (411533)

  60. Off topic, but look at the big picture. The liberals do not care about anyone dying due to this decision. They care not for the individual. Look at Ted Kennedy. Mary Jo doesn’t matter, ahe is just an individual. Look at what Ted did for society. The blood sacrifice of any indivdual is an insignificant price to pay. Take it further, to healthcare reform. individuals do not count, it is the system that is important. Abortion; We look at every abortion as a loss of an individual life, liberals see the state working just fine. Releasing prisoners, just as long as it fits the liberal ideaology, who cares about a few individuals? Are they not to serve the greater good of society? After all, liberals can fantisize about Mary Jo gladdly drowning for Teddy’s great liberal dream.

    Jim Piper (8c99ce)

  61. No need to apologize for the language – you just perfectly stated how the rest of us feel….

    ….. now get your guns clean and be ready!!!

    MarineDad (021355)

  62. Comment by PatAZ — 9/7/2009 @ 10:06 am

    Can Not Do, Pat.
    DiFi locked up that area with her Mojave National Preserve acreage.

    AD - RtR/OS! (fad78f)

  63. Comment by MarineDad — 9/7/2009 @ 10:19 am

    Decisions, decisions, decisions…
    45acp is a given; but after that: 30-06, 308, or 223?
    Well, in the spirit of World Brotherhood, I guess I’ll stick to the Free World’s Right-Arm.

    AD - RtR/OS! (fad78f)

  64. nk wrote:

    I’d go back to 1968 sentencing ranges. Mandatory minimum (twenty years) only for murder. I have no problem with three strikes laws but I would make the life sentence parolable.

    That isn’t an answer. The question was not about sentences, but about prisons:

    I want these guys locked up but I don’t like the way we lock them up.

    and

    The way we run our prisons only makes sense

    Sentencing ranges were increased, and three-strikes laws passed, because we were letting criminals out too soon; mandatory minimums and the like were put in place because we didn’t punish criminals enough, not because we were too easy on them.

    The nit-picking Dana (474dfc)

  65. Stephen Reinhardt….very liberal. Married to RAMONA RIPSTON..executive director of the So. Cal chapter of the ACLU. That’s right folks…married to one of the parties involved in this case. I don’t think that Reinhardt has ever heard of the word “recuse”. What a tool.

    ab01 (e0db56)

  66. To further emphasize adj Dana’s statement, mandatory minimums were put in place because there were too many libturd judges on too many benches. The laws had to be written so the libturd judges couldn’t at all misinterpret them; thus mandatory minimums were put in effect. The whole mandatory minimum stuff was made as a result of libturd judges making libturd pronouncements from libturd benches.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  67. Comment by The nit-picking Dana — 9/7/2009 @ 11:18 am

    Dana,

    Tripling a sentence is the same as tripling the prison population and it’s no good unless you triple the prison space. But I’m going beyond that.

    Do you remember the Ramos and Compean case? They got two years for violating the drug smuggler’s civil rights and ten years mandatory minimum for carrying guns while doing it. Those are the laws that don’t make sense to me.

    Anyway, I’m not claiming that I should be trusted with a baby, a sword, and two prostitutes.

    nk (df76d4)

  68. Do you really think that our society needs to be protected from the likes of Ramos and Compean?

    What about the poor, black man in Chicago who got twenty-five years mandatory minimum for wounding two burglars who were loading their van with everything he owned?

    Juries follow the law and they will bring in a verdict of guilty if the evidence tells them they must. But then, the judge who imposes the sentence should be allowed to look at the person before him. One size does not fit all.

    The sometimes snarky nk (df76d4)

  69. I have a solution to the overcrowding problem (which is no problem at all, they made their beds, let them lie in them) which is far out in right field. My solution is far out in right field because it comes from that despicable source called the Bible.

    Nobody should be jailed for robbery (with the exception I will give below). Nobody should be jailed for rape. Nobody should be jailed for murder.

    I should note my position is in sharp contrast with the Catholic church, but that’s my reading of the Bible and not the Catholic reading of it.

    If you rape someone, you die. Nuff said. If you murder someone, you die. Nuff said. And to those who claim capital punishment is not a deterrant, tell me how many people have gone through capital punishment and continued committing violent crimes.

    If you steal anything, four times the value of what you stole is taken from you and given to your victim (plus the costs of the court proceedings). If that means everything you own is taken from you and you are forced out on the streets to be homeless, that’s your fault, not mine. You should’ve considered that before you robbed someone.

    And here’s the sticking point with lots of people: If the confiscation of your possessions, as a result of what YOU CHOSE TO DO, leaves your spouse and children homeless and starving, that, too, is your fault and not mine. It is also your spouse’s fault for not throwing you out with the dishwater.

    And the caveat I mentioned I would give: If all your possessions do not add up to 4*the value of what you stole (plus all court costs), all your possessions will be confiscated and you will be incarcerated at a rate of three dollars per hour until the length of your incarceration plus the value of the confiscation reaches the pre-set value.

    When you commit a crime, you voluntarily give up all your rights. It is through the generosity of others that they allow you to maintain any of them, and not your worth (which is zero).

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  70. I’ve spent some time over the last few years at Camp Roberts, which has been the home to countless GIs over the decades. Exploring the abandoned buildings filled my days after securing the JAG shop for the day; the chapels, in varying stages of decay, never failed to move me.

    The barracks haven’t been improved much since World War II, and while they may not be suitable for federal inmates, they’re just fine for soldiers.

    Mike Lief (633855)

  71. I responded to some of y’all’s comments in an update.

    If the State Bar wants to bring me up on disciplinary charges for telling these judges to fuck off, I say bring it on.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  72. I also spent time living aboard a submarine, and the idea that convicted criminals are enduring 8th Amendment constitutional violations when enjoying living conditions no worse — and often better — than that experienced by our military men is risible and contemptible. I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that this is due in great measure to the small percentage of judges who have served in uniform as enlisted men, and not as military lawyers.

    Mike Lief (633855)

  73. Once again, we have met the enemy, and the enemy is us.

    Sure, these judges suck.

    But, this chronic prison overpopulation was completely forseeable. Yet, we continue to elect who we elect. Spending on prisons is just not a priority. Also, we elect those who gutlessly allow the guards’ union to dictate terms. As a community, we refuse to take away organizing rights for these public servants.

    We are getting precisely what we deserve.

    *just in case someone wants to attack me for saying the very fine conservative contributors are at fault, let me say the “we” refers to the majority Democrat denizens of California.

    Ed from SFV (a8b34c)

  74. Maybe we can just ask our prosecutor friend whether he’d feel safer in a crowded prison or a crowded submarine.

    I would feel 1000 times safer on a crowded submarine than in a prison personally designed by Stephen Reinhardt, with all the amenities of a five-star luxury hotel. Your question is silly and betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of who prisoners are.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  75. This is absolutely a horrible thing we who live in California face. It’s amazing that such stunning examples like Charlie Samuel or Phillip Garrido, have no impact on these judges. It’s almost as if they do not care about the responsible, law abiding citizens but rather their sympathies lay elsewhere. Willfully so.

    Chuck Devore (R-Irvine), who is challenging Barbara Boxer for her Senate seat, was one of the authors of AB900, which was to allocate monies to address California’s overcrowded prisons. He writes a good back story and explanation here of this quaqmire and soon to be reality.

    Dana (863a65)

  76. “The difference is obvious, people on a ship or submarine in wartime could be dead within the next 5 minutes at anytime, day or night.”

    They’re also there because of their skills following orders and being organized, rather than the fact that they don’t follow rules and can’t live in organized society. This makes a big difference. It would to me. I’d rather be in an overcrowded submarine than in an undercrowded prison. Anyone else?

    What kind of a dumbass that deals with criminals can’t tell this?

    imdw (017d51)

  77. Comment by Patterico — 9/7/2009 @ 12:10 pm

    That kind of language is beneath you my honorable host. But what do I know.

    The Emperor (1b037c)

  78. But what do I know.

    Comment by The Emperor — 9/7/2009 @ 12:30 pm

    Little to nothing.

    (You still say my candor is a weak suit?)

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  79. Arnold is a useless loser governor of a useless loser state. Steroids ate his balls all up I think but I’m not sure what California’s excuse is.

    happyfeet (6b707a)

  80. Everyone who defends this decision is threatening innocent California citizens with physical violence.

    Murderers should not be used as a weapon to manipulate the public.

    Amphipolis (8cd9a3)

  81. A small point of information on living conditions on WWII troop transports. Hammocks were not used for two reasons. The first was that it took some degree of skill to get in and out of a hammock and the second is that hammocks took up too much room.

    That is why, before WWI, the troop ships were fitted with the racks shown in the photos. If you were lucky, the rack was fully prepared with the canvas already laced in place. If unlucky, as I was three times, you had to take the piece of canvas and a rope and lace the canvas to the steel rack. Not an easy task for most Army types.

    It was not uncommon, for the first few days of travel, to have someone’s rack come apart during the night and drop him onto the sleeper below. Luckly it was a short drop as, except for the man in the top rack, there was not much room between the chest of the man on the lower rack and the back of the man above. Forget about sleeping on your side.

    Longwalker (996c34)

  82. On my first visit to HI, I took my daughter (who is now in the US Army) on a tour of the Mighty Mo and a WWII-era sub. The USS Missouri had been updated multiple times in its service, including removing the 5-high racks and replacing them with 4-high racks. And there wasn’t enough space to comfortably fit 3-high racks.

    And people who have voluntarily given up their rights by being criminals have more rights than today’s military? Libturds have no decency whatsoever.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  83. What about the poor, black man in Chicago who got twenty-five years mandatory minimum for wounding two burglars who were loading their van with everything he owned?

    That’s the irony of the ass-backwards mentality of far too many liberals (oh, excuse me—that should be progressives). I bet the DA who prosecuted the guy you describe, and the judge who oversaw the case, were devoid of much or any common sense. IOW, I bet they were “leftys.” The folks who have a knack for shedding their tears at the wrong time for the wrong person and the wrong situation. And then doing the opposite for the person or situation that deserves our sympathy.

    And topping all of this off by having the gall to believe that when it comes to their compassion and humanity, their shit don’t stink.

    Mark (411533)

  84. Imdw – You no longer should feel compelled to prove you are a disingenuous twit. It is established fact, beyond dispute, now.

    JD (07af0d)

  85. Patterico’s sailor imagery is pretty much on target if you’ve seen any of the video in news broadcasts of Califorina prison living conditions– except the prison file footage is in color. Patrick, you’re a legal eagle. Gov. Schwarzenegger is going to appeal this decision to the U.S. Supreme Court. Do you think, in the end, they will get released? Is there no way to transfer them to less crowded facilities or, say, house them in mothballed vessels or such?

    DCSCA (9d1bb3)

  86. imdw – Since you seem to support this decision, how many prisoners have you stepped up to house at your place?

    daleyrocks (718861)

  87. I’d rather be in an overcrowded submarine than in an undercrowded prison. Anyone else?

    What kind of a dumbass that deals with criminals can’t tell this?

    Stephen Reinhardt. L.A. Times editors. They all blame prison riots on overcrowding, rather than prisoners being violent assholes.

    Interesting that you just echoed exactly what I said, which, remember, was: “I would feel 1000 times safer on a crowded submarine than in a prison personally designed by Stephen Reinhardt, with all the amenities of a five-star luxury hotel.”

    So we’re in agreement, imdw. Prisoners don’t riot because of overcrowding. They riot because they are dangerous.

    And if they chose to be in prison by committing crimes, then they deserve no better living conditions than sailors who chose to be in submarines to defend our country.

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  88. Imdw is a chicken-prisoner-releaser.

    Listening to IMP, imdw, and their ilk is cruel and unusual punishment.

    JD (07af0d)

  89. That’s the irony of the ass-backwards mentality of far too many liberals (oh, excuse me—that should be progressives). I bet the DA who prosecuted the guy you describe, and the judge who oversaw the case, were devoid of much or any common sense. IOW, I bet they were “leftys.” The folks who have a knack for shedding their tears at the wrong time for the wrong person and the wrong situation. And then doing the opposite for the person or situation that deserves our sympathy.

    That sums it up for progressives.

    They claim that police in the U.S. should not use torture, while knowing that Stalin did not use enough torture in the U.S.S.R.

    Michael Ejercito (833607)

  90. Patterico – …then they deserve no better living conditions than sailors who chose to be in submarines to defend our country.

    On the contrary, those who seek to violate our liberty deserve far worse conditions than those who choose to defend our liberty.

    As for some of the other comments –

    What, exactly, would Patterico shove up their ass? Paperwork? A .pdf of the decision? News reports? It’s laughable that his post would imply anything other than the figurative because there’s nothing physical that applies to the statement.

    As for white collar crime and petty theft becoming unpunishable, it’s almost at that point now.

    Patterico – I completely concur with your statements, and you are right to be quite upset, even more so that you have a family. Rhinehardt et al have never in their existence lived through a societal breakdown, but if they’re not careful, they may help to precipitate one through their stupidity. You and your profanities have my complete support. What is actually profane is the inevitable spin that will be placed on the results of this decision by the media – all to shield the architects of this folly from accountability for their decisions.

    The very idea that release is even an option at this time of very low crime rates shows the absolute disconnect of many of our elected leaders and government officials to comprehend what is and what is not effective for the functioning of our society. Three strikes removed much of their power, and it was for a reason. They are irresponsible.

    And they continue to reinforce that deserved label.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  91. “…the fact that they don’t follow rules and can’t live in organized society. This makes a big difference. It would to me. I’d rather be in an overcrowded submarine than in an undercrowded prison. Anyone else?
    What kind of a dumbass that deals with criminals can’t tell this?”
    Comment by imdw — 9/7/2009 @ 12:28 pm

    Sufficient retorts already posted.

    MD in Philly (d4f9fa)

  92. Being locked in one room for 21 hours a day is not the same as having to sleep there for 8.

    “We are watching California die.”
    And who’s fault is that? How does California politics handle Taxes and money? What was the debt that got Davis dumped?? And then there was the electricity “crisis” but that was Enron, not Davis. That didn’t get figured out till later. Schwarzenegger is worse by far. He’s behaving like an an idiot, and he’s a republican.

    If you refuse to think long term, you pay the price. Californians are destroying California and they’re doing it together. Patterico included.

    jW Democrat (1e4a3b)

  93. JWD: So because Patterico lives here, he’s “doing it together” (“destroying California”), even though he consistently votes contrary to the destructive policies? Ohhhhhhhhh kay.

    Mitch (69e416)

  94. The Democrat base just doesn’t understand, and it’s not entirely their fault — except for the fact that a modicum of research would enlighten them. So it is entirely their fault, afterall.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  95. So they are just not progressive enough, JW?!

    Mitch – Mockery and scorn is all that little twatwaffle deserves.

    JD (329841)

  96. Being locked in one room for 21 hours a day is not the same as having to sleep there for 8.

    And being locked in that room for 21 hours a day because you killed, raped or beat someone isn’t the same as choosing to defend the liberties of all Americans. The criminal acts are always omitted, because the inference must be that incarceration involves no choice on the part of the incarcerated.

    The soldiers choose to serve, the convicts choose to commit crimes. The fact that the convicts have a negative effect on society should weigh heavily in decisions regarding what are acceptable conditions of their confinement, which should never be more comfortable than the conditions of those who choose to benefit society.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  97. Californians are destroying California and they’re doing it together.

    No they’re not. It’s the part of the electorate that embraces liberalism (oh, excuse me—make that progressivism) that’s responsible for the mess of California state government. They’ve allowed politicians of the left and, in turn, “lefty” policymaking to run amok in Sacramento since the 1990s.

    And Schwarzenegger, already rather squishy in the first place, was pushed to the left a few years ago when a majority of the brilliant (ie, stupid) voters of California turned down his long-needed reform initatives on the ballot.

    The people of California who deserve all the scorn and blame for the debacle of their “Golden State” are the ones embracing the concept of “I’m liberal, therefore I am.”

    Mark (411533)

  98. To me, their status as criminals or troops is irrelevant and I think Patterico’s analogy is spot on. The point is whether the conditions are inhumane and I don’t see how these judges can say crowded conditions are per se inhumane. Virtually the entire city of Tokyo is inhumane by that standard, and losing your liberty through confinement is one of the goals of incarceration. IMO this is just another set of activist judges looking for ways to dismantle the criminal justice system.

    DRJ (3f5471)

  99. Due to these high costs, Governor Schwarzenegger and Democrat lawmakers have chosen not to fight a three-judge federal panel (all appointed by Jimmy Carter) who have taken over many aspects of California’s prison system. They gained control via lawsuits from the ACLU alleging cruel and unusual punishment of California prisoners due to poor medical treatment and overcrowding. This, in spite of the fact that California prisoners were healthier than the national average and even better off than their age and gender cohort on the outside (probably due to exercise, no smoking or drinking and nutritious food). Now this federal judicial panel is seeking to release 40,000 inmates over two years.

    Dana (863a65)

  100. Virtually the entire city of Tokyo is inhumane by that standard

    Heh.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  101. Due to these high costs

    Dana – just wait until the costs associated with the ensuing mayhem begin to accrue.

    Apogee (e2dc9b)

  102. Add these federal judges to the list which includes most of our “servants” in Congress, and the entire WH including appointees and czars.

    My own personal wish list of those I’d enjoy watching as they are led away from their destruction of America – in HANDCUFFS. Awaiting trial, and sentencing.

    DaveinPhoenix (dff67b)

  103. Absolutely, Apogee. There is a willful ignorance of consequences – especially the unintended sort.

    They have so convinced themselves that the public will believe them* when they make the outrageous claim that every released inmate will be closely monitored at all times.

    *They don’t believe their own claims, but are relying on a gullible stupid public.

    Dana (863a65)

  104. “imdw – Since you seem to support this decision, how many prisoners have you stepped up to house at your place?”

    Oh I have no idea about this decision. right or not, california needs to get it’s act together and quit being beholden to a minority intent on paralyzing the government.

    But the merits of the decision don’t have much to do with how stupid it is to think the crowded, orderly environment of a tour on a ship is somehow worse than than a slightly less crowded and decidedly longer stay among the general population of a prison.

    “And if they chose to be in prison by committing crimes, then they deserve no better living conditions than sailors who chose to be in submarines to defend our country.”

    So they deserve to be as free of riots and the illegitimate violence of other prisoners — and guards — as sailors? What’s the logic here exactly?

    If prison overcrowding doesn’t lead to riots, then it doesn’t lead to riots. That still don’t make living conditions in a less crowded prison better than a more crowded submarine. I gues maybe for you ‘living’ doens’t mean ‘free of riots.’ It just means how much space one has?

    imdw (017d51)

  105. Hey, Pat, I agree with you COMPLETELY. Yet, I also agree with comment #18 (Comment by slp — 9/7/2009 @ 6:37 am).

    In any event, I’m shocked, shocked you just so completely miss the point. The Navy does a pretty good job of assuring that the sailors are crammed together with non-criminal types. The Democrat-appointed judges recognize that in California, even though the density is only one tenth as great, we are putting prisoners in close proximity to KNOWN criminals. How would you like to have to share a cell with even one criminal, even though your food and medical expenses are completely covered? Well, how would you like it?

    Ira (28a423)

  106. Ira, do you miss the point that prisoners sharing overcrowded prisons are because at some point in time they MADE THE CHOICE to be prisoners by committing crimes?

    Patterico has not chosen to become a prisoner by committing a crime. No one here who is against this abominable release has chosen to become a prisoner by committing a crime and yet we are the ones who are going to pay the dear price because a few judges decide that overcrowding is a far more serious problem than the very likely and potential problem of one of these released prisoners doing us great harm.

    You don’t see a problem with this?

    Dana (863a65)

  107. Artful Dana, I read Ira’s post as sarcasm, ironically indicting the libturds, and not as straight-forward in an attempt to indict the prison system.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  108. California- “Proposition 13″
    Scandinavia

    According to liberal thinkers, Scandinavian countries should have drowned in the current economic crisis with their bloated public sectors and a nanny-state mentality that stifles individual creativity.

    But the opposite has happened. Sweden, Denmark and Norway, where many people pay 50% of their income in taxes – with some even paying 60% – are coping better than most, in particular better than Britain.

    “The outlook for these countries is good,” says Christian Ketels, an economist at the Harvard Business School and the Stockholm School of Economics. “They are going to return to normal quicker, and in better shape, than everybody else.”

    Scandinavia has seen no protests, unlike in the UK, where some workers have been demanding British jobs for British people. Nor have there been street demonstrations or incidents of “bossnapping” like those in France, where laid-off employees kidnapped their superiors in protest.

    Democrats at their best are earnest cowards: Obama is a player not a leader. Republicans lead mostly by lying to people who want to blame anyone other than themselves for their own mistakes.
    Republicans tell the people what they want to hear. Democrats say: “See, the people want republican ideas. What can we do?”
    The majority of Americans are in favor of a public option. o-p-t-i-o-n. Republicans say that means less choice. Democrats don’t correct them. end of story.

    Democratic politicians behave like battered wives who think they deserve it. People don’t like bullies, but they don’t respect habitual victims. It’s simple schoolyard logic; the logic of this site. But don’t expect me, who’s not even born in this country, to take the bullies’ moral logic seriously.
    It’s a pretty stupid country.

    jW Democrat (fcc189)

  109. It’s important to conduct any and all arguments on this subject within the proper framework.

    Public Policy:

    We could argue about whether it’s a good or bad idea, as a matter of public policy, to follow the combination of fiscal (prison-resourcing) and criminal law (sentencing) policies that produces this degree of crowding.

    That’s the sort of argument citizens and their elected representatives in the state legislature and governor’s mansion should debate. As a non-Californian who only follows reports on California prison conditions and crime and budget problems occasionally and from afar, I have only an outsider’s perspective. But if I were to weigh in, I would be inclined to agree that it’s a very bad idea to crowd prisoners to this degree — not just because of humanitarian or compassionate concerns, but also because I suspect the superficial economies of doing so will prove false ones over time (when factored against costs of disease, violence, and so forth).

    It looks, at least to this outsider, as if this is a bad situation created the unresolved conflict between (a) the desires of a majority of Californians to be relatively aggressive on matters of sentencing, (b) the desires of a (slightly different) majority of Californians not to add further to their already very high tax burdens, and (c) the state’s overspending on other matters that a (probably very differently composed) majority of California citizens wants to endow.

    (I just returned from a trip to the Bay Area, at the end of which my son and his girlfriend and I drove from there down through LA and on to Houston. I met and chatted with all different kinds of Californians of all different political stripes during the trip. And as in all my previous visits to the state, I left it both with a better understanding of why some people treasure the opportunity to live there, but a strong conviction that I’m not one of them. I thus sympathize with my friend and Texas expatriate Patterico, who both professionally and as a blogger is right at the contact point between all of these giant and opposed grinding wheels of public policy.)

    That said:

    Constitutional Jurisprudence and Judicial Overreaching:

    This post isn’t, strictly speaking, an observation or argument about prison crowding or prison resourcing or state budgets and taxes.

    It’s about the arrogant seizure of power — under a tortured and illegitimate reading of the federal Constitution — by politically liberal judicial-activist federal judges on the California district court bench and on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

    Because, friends and neighbors, it doesn’t matter, in the ultimate and final analyis, what you or I, or the citizens and legislators and government executives of California, think about prison crowding, or prison resourcing, or even state taxes and budgets as matters of public policy. Anything we or they do is, at best, provisional and subject to being arbitrarily reversed, overridden, and/or ignored. And that’s because the Absolute Masters of the Universe, as now constituted to rule over California, wear the black robes of federal judges. And they insist that whatever their personal views on these policy issues may be, those personal views — falsely dressed up in faux-constitutional arguments — be obeyed.

    Patterico’s written or spoken sentiments of rage, whether seemly or not, are timely, genuine, justified, and aimed at the right targets.

    And because what he writes here is, in considerable part, intended to influence how we, as his citizen-readers, may cast our future votes for those executives and legislators who will select these sorts of judges in the future, he’s absolutely correct in arguing that his intentionally blunt speech is absolutely and positively protected under the First Amendment.

    When there are preventable, tragic deaths as a result of this Ninth Circuit decision — and Patterico is, again, absolutely right in predicting that such will happen — the responsibility for that won’t stop with these arrogant and imperious federal judges. The responsibility will continue to flow, both upstream and back through time, to Jimmy Carter, to Bill Clinton, to Barack Obama, and ultimately to those who voted for them (and by so doing, voted for the principle of promoting politically liberal judicial-activist judges into positions of immense power and life tenure).

    Beldar (265732)

  110. Comment by John Hitchcock — 9/7/2009 @ 3:33 pm

    Perhaps you’re right, John Hitchcock. Sometimes it’s difficult if I’m not familiar with a commenter, whether it’s sarcasm or not. Plus this issue is rather upsetting to me as a resident of California, and I’m feeling a tad prickly.

    If I misread you, Ira, I apologize.

    Dana (863a65)

  111. Hey, Junior Wannabe Douchecrat, please post links to surveys saying the majority of the US wants a pubic option, because the polls I’ve seen say the majority of the US has said the pubic option can go to Hades. Of course those same polls say the majority of the libturd base wants the pubic option while the majority of independents and Republicans reject it. Over 50 percent (that’s a majority) reject the ObamaSoc plan when it includes the pubic option and the libturd base turns on Obama and his ObamaSoc plan if the pubic option is removed.

    Again, show links to surveys and polls that say otherwise, as you’ve falsely claimed they do.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  112. 77% want “choice” of public option
    You have to make clear to the idiots that ‘option’ means ‘choice.’

    jW Democrat (fcc189)

  113. Beldar, you are my hero.

    EW1(SG) (edc268)

  114. I will take the judgment that the prison conditions are intolerable under advisement. I will definitely remember it if I am ever called for jury duty and the defendant is charged with attacking a federal judge. I do not think I could, in good conscience, find the defendant guilty in such a case knowing that he would be locked up under intolerable conditions. Mind you, I am not advocating violence. I am just recognizing that locking someone up under intolerable conditions is a form of torture in such a case.

    snookered (c64d75)

  115. Best POST EVER

    hmfearny (fd0ae6)

  116. “…but that was Enron, not Davis…”

    Enron might have been gaming the system, but it was a system set up by the Dems that controlled Sacramento.
    It is strange that TX decontrolled electricity at about the same time as CA, but never suffered the problems of black/brown outs that CA did, nor were subject to the gaming of the system that CA underwent, some by our own municipal-owned utilities (LA DWP, anyone?).
    All CA proved is that when you decontrol the wholesale side of something, but leave strict controls on the retail side, you will create a serious problem for the consumer when no provider can offer you a commodity without going BK. But, of course, we knew from the “gas crisis” of the seventies that government intervention into the economy was a no-no.
    And remember, CA’s decontrol of electricity was brought to you by a film-maker, whose notable acheivement was “Attack of the Killer Tomatoes“!

    AD - RtR/OS! (fad78f)

  117. (I just returned from a trip to the Bay Area, at the end of which my son and his girlfriend and I drove from there down through LA and on to Houston. I met and chatted with all different kinds of Californians of all different political stripes during the trip.

    Did my e-mail get lost in the spam filter?

    I’m joking of course, but I am genuinely sad not to have had the chance to meet you . . . again. (We came so close in Houston.)

    Patterico (cc3b34)

  118. I still say that the judges who made those decisions should have to have the released prisoners in their homes for six months or a year. As it stands, they are high and mighty above the results of their decisions.

    Just my opinion.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  119. Personally, were it up to me, I’d release the people who’re in for possession of drugs and other victimless crimes…then start getting really creative with the rest. I’ve read all three volumes of The Gulag Archipelago, and I’m not afraid to use what I learned.

    Building “gulag” camps someplace like northern Alaska and working the predatory turds to death under the Midnight Sun, with a steady diet of whip-‘cross-the-back to keep them going and motivated, would suit me just fine. For that mtter…I bet we could come to a deal with the Russians. There’s probably still gold that could be mined in the Kolyma area of Siberia; we ship them the convicts, the convicts mine the gold, and we and the Russians split the profits! Everybody wins—and if one of the worthless shitbums gets loose, well, Siberia’ll take care of him better than anything!

    technomad (eefe5a)

  120. The occasionally snarky nk wrote:

    Do you really think that our society needs to be protected from the likes of Ramos and Compean?

    California is under court orders to dump 40,000 prisoners from jails; the problem there isn’t addressed by noting a particular case which was a miscarriage of justice. Even if those gentlemen had been part of the California prison population — and they aren’t — that wopuld still leave 39,998 other problems; how many of those do you believe would fall under the Ramos and Compean model?

    Tripling a sentence is the same as tripling the prison population and it’s no good unless you triple the prison space.

    Is it? Part of the reason we have increased prison terms is to keep these thugs off the streets, because they committed so many crimes once they were out. If you cut the sentences by a third, yet the criminal commits another felony when he gets out and gets sent back to prison, he’s occupying the same amount of space; the only difference is that there’s another victim out there who has been robbed, raped, murdered or molested.

    The unsympathetic Dana (474dfc)

  121. “And that’s because the Absolute Masters of the Universe, as now constituted to rule over California, wear the black robes of federal judges.”

    Now? We’ve been hearing this line since like 1959.

    imdw (e66d8d)

  122. “I still say that the judges who made those decisions should have to have the released prisoners in their homes for six months or a year.”

    And the judges who incarcerate prisoners have to also hold them in their homes? Fiscal crisis solved!

    imdw (e66d8d)

  123. DRJ wrote:

    The point is whether the conditions are inhumane and I don’t see how these judges can say crowded conditions are per se inhumane. Virtually the entire city of Tokyo is inhumane by that standard, and losing your liberty through confinement is one of the goals of incarceration. IMO this is just another set of activist judges looking for ways to dismantle the criminal justice system.

    One wonders if the same federal judges would rule that the living conditions imposed on our soldiers are also unconstitutionally harsh, were they ever to be presented with such a case. My daughter wasn’t all that thrilled with having to share a barracks with 59 other women, and having to clean the place to boot — pun intended — but she did volunteer, and it isn’t like she, or anyone else, was going to file a lawsuit about it.

    The proud daddy Dana (474dfc)

  124. Apogee wrote:

    (Prettier) Dana – just wait until the costs associated with the ensuing mayhem begin to accrue.

    But that’s just it: those costs are far lower to the government. If you happen to get killed by one of these guys, well, too bad, so sad, but your death is unlikely to cost the government nearly as much as it costs to house a prisoner.

    The economist Dana (474dfc)

  125. Mr Hitchcock wrote:

    Hey, Junior Wannabe Douchecrat, please post links to surveys saying the majority of the US wants a pubic option

    Oh, I think we can simply accept the truth of that one! :)

    The amused Dana (474dfc)

  126. Adj Dana, I have a solution you might like. Send all the “non-violent” felons to Army BCT and force them to endure like any Army recruit, meaning no ACLU lawyers snuggling them. Send all the “violent” felons to Marine Corps BCT and force them to endure like any Marine Corps recruit, meaning no ACLU lawyers, no phone, no weekends. Then let them serve out the remainder of their sentences in a “regular” prison.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  127. Comment by The economist Dana — 9/7/2009 @ 4:50 pm

    Isn’t it safe to say that what we project will occur (what I believe an inevitability) will lead to more lawsuits, court costs, and a much greater need for law enforcement on the streets? All of this will cost greatly. And it might very like to be a greater monetary amount than their incarceration.

    If crimes go up, the state cannot just sit back and pretend it isn’t happening. The crime rate in L.A. is at one of it’s lowest points and to release approximately 10,000 back into the population is going to be costly – one way or another.

    Dana (863a65)

  128. Re the profanity:

    Patterico–
    I can sympathize with the copulatory sentiments, but a first-time reader to this site will gain a false impression of your blog’s usual maturity and lack of vulgarity.

    Euphemisms and “scratch” symbols may lower your blood pressure without lowering your decorum. Your critics seek to push the idea that Obama’s critics are ranting louts.
    –Golden Eagle

    Golden Eagle (4e9369)

  129. Trouble is, Mr Hitchcock, neither the Army nor the Marine Corps wants them.

    Actually, such would probably do them a Hell of a lot of good, and might get them straightened out, give these losers a sense of actual accomplishment for once in their lives. There have been judges, at least in the past, who have have given young offenders the choice of enlisting or going to trial, but that was when judges were actually, you know, judges!

    The serious Dana (474dfc)

  130. California- “Proposition 13″
    Scandinavia

    Are the socialists throughout the rather small, predominantly mono-racial, mono-ethnic, self-contained societies of northern Europe prepared to take on the huge influx of perenially lowly educated, underperforming, dysfunction-prone people from nations like Mexico? Or are they going to be like the typical limousine liberal (ie, someone naive and foolish, regardless of his or her income level), who can talk the talk, but won’t walk the walk?

    The prevailing politics of a country or community are somewhat analogous to the dynamics between parents and their children. If the kids in a household are naturally rather disciplined, skilled, bright, honest and stable, the parents can be more permissive (ie, liberal or progressive), if not a bit screwball, without causing the entire household to fall apart.

    But if the kids in a household tend to be undisciplined, unskilled, non-academic-oriented, dishonest and unstable, a combination of that and pushover, foolish parents (ie, “We love the Democrat Party! We love liberalism. It’s so lovely, and generous, and humane!!”) almost guarantees that a bad situation will turn out even worse.

    If Californians in their infinite wisdom believe a “lefty” ideology is going to work, they better pray that the big, ongoing, never-ending debacle of a society like Mexico (whose electorate generally is always reliably and idiotically liberal) isn’t a reflection of California in the future.

    Mark (411533)

  131. Thank you, amused. You showed you can read. I wrote that very six-letter word in five-letter format multiple times in that comment. And it was amusing to write.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  132. Or perhaps you could do so, imdw.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  133. *10,000 was the number cited for release in Los Angeles.

    Dana (863a65)

  134. How many times has that link that says 77% favor the pubic option been debunked. You have to be aggressively dishonest, and ignorant of all polling to the contrary since that point in time.

    JD (329841)

  135. The much better looking Dana wrote:

    Isn’t it safe to say that what we project will occur (what I believe an inevitability) will lead to more lawsuits, court costs, and a much greater need for law enforcement on the streets? All of this will cost greatly. And it might very like to be a greater monetary amount than their incarceration.

    Can you put a number on it? Because, if you can’t, it’s an argument which has no chance.

    Even there, the costs of state prisoners are borne by the state, while many of the costs you have mentioned are borne by localities.

    I was about to conclude by saying that the state is more concerned about balancing its budget than it is with the budgets of the localities, but then I remembered, we were talking about California.

    The accountant Dana (474dfc)

  136. That was in reference to #123, of course.

    Eric Blair (0b61b2)

  137. JW Democrat, the electricity crisis in California was not the responsibility of Enron. It was the fault of California politicians creating a regulated retail market, preventing new generation plant from being built and forcing utilities to buy in an uncapped wholesale market. You are just full of dishonest myths and outright ignorance.

    As we have seen before.

    SPQR (26be8b)

  138. I can’t put a number on it but neither can you. Whether borne by localities or the state, it’s essentially, somewhere along the line, will be coming out of the taxpayer’s pocket. And that is disgraceful.

    Dana (863a65)

  139. Ugly Dana, I’m not suggesting adding the felons into the ranks of the military, I’m just suggesting they go through the BCT. And, no, it’s not a serious suggestion as it would never fly on multiple levels. (I heard when I went thru 13 weeks at Paradise Island in the mid-80s that I did so at a cost of $1,000,000 to the taxpayers.) But you’re right that many of these felons would have an honest feeling of finally accomplishing something.

    Regarding, “jail or military,” the military PDQs anyone trying to enlist with those parameters today. They come in clean or cleansed or they don’t come in.

    John Hitchcock (3fd153)

  140. From WSJ, before their release, fiscal costs are already being racked up. First problem is finding the money,

    California state and local officials, already reeling from budget cuts and public-safety layoffs, are struggling with a federal order to release about 40,000 inmates to reduce prison overcrowding and bracing for the impact on their communities.

    State officials have said they will appeal the decision, but as a contingency are cobbling together proposals to comply with the order. At the same time, cash-strapped local governments in places such as Los Angeles and Fresno are grappling with how to monitor and support thousands of released inmates at a time of scaled-down police forces and underfunded social-services programs.

    Some local governments say they are unsure how they will support new parolees and an influx to their county jails at a time when their own budgets have been hit by the recession and the state’s financial woes.

    Dana (863a65)

  141. imdw (#122 – 9/7/2009 @ 4:39 pm) wrote, quoting my earlier comment (#110 – 9/7/2009 @ 3:36 pm):

    “And that’s because the Absolute Masters of the Universe, as now constituted to rule over California, wear the black robes of federal judges.”

    Now? We’ve been hearing this line since like 1959.

    But the “Masters of the Universe” phrase is from Tom Wolfe’s The Bonfire of the Vanities, published in 1987. (The “Absolute” modifier is my own, so far as I know, intended to distinguish between the merely rich, like the Wall Street figures Wolfe was mocking, and the self-made very-nearly all-powerful, like the federal judges Patterico and I are railing against.)

    You’re perhaps thinking of 1954 and Brown v. Board of Education, which prompted supporters of Jim Crow racist laws to criticize federal judges for supposedly overstepping their bounds. But I wasn’t thinking of that, nor deliberately using those critics’ language, for although the color of the robes remains unchanged, the situations aren’t remotely comparable:

    The judges who struck down racist state laws and enforced the 1960s civil rights legislation were acting (decades belatedly) to give effect to the post-Civil War constitutional amendments that forbade discrimination on the basis of race, national origin, and previous conditions of servitude. (Sadly, some of those judges, or their successors, have strayed beyond that proper and explicitly constitutional role into, again, perverted and unjustifiable impositions of racial quotas that are obviously contrary to those same constitutional amendments. But that’s another distinct and sad story of judicial activism and misconduct.)

    Here, by contrast, the wholly inadequate and farcical constitutional peg on which these political liberal judicial-activist judges are hanging their decision is the Eighth Amendment’s guarantee against “cruel and unusual punishments.” The judges of whom Patterico writes have taken that amendment — contrary to any expectation of its writers, and contrary to its judicial interpretation for well over the first century and a half of its existence — to empower them to micromanage every condition of confinement of every prisoner held under state law. That’s a power-grab that I quite suspect would have even Brown v. Board-author (and former California governor) Earl Warren in fits of apoplexy, and would probably have had him using (if only privately) the same salty language that Patterico has in his post.

    And the power-grab is most definitely the result of a post-Civil Rights Era (i.e., late 1950s-through-1960s) liberal mentality, which relies on life-tenured, unelected, and nearly unimpeachable federal judges to decree results that the Left cannot accomplish through the traditional and legitimate processes of legislation and/or constitutional amendment.

    So no, you haven’t been hearing my argument “since like 1959.” You’re not paying attention, and you’re either poorly informed or deliberately conflating things that are in the Constitution with things that are not.

    [note: fished from spam filter — Stashiu]

    Beldar (265732)

  142. but in our vulgar culture, it may be hard to adequately convey the depths of one’s disdain and contempt without resorting to it.

    This is exactly what Cocktails are missing in our debate with Liberal Amerikkka.

    But all the convicts should be given Google Map print outs to the Judges homes with a description of how much money they make and what their spouse does too.

    That would stop the nonsense within 1.256 Hours.

    HeavenSent (01a566)

  143. RNTU a puty dee-ay, can u sez such 2 a juhdg, a circwheat juhdg @ that?

    hortense (aka horace) (4e40ae)

  144. I my day — and I admit I was a ‘rider’, I went TAD to ships, thank god — we had privacy curtains. But we still had six guys in about 3/4 the space of a prison cell, and this was (mostly) on the TyCo class cruisers.

    That privacy curtain really came in handy, especially when deploying with “spanky” Spackman. (Surname changed to protect the guilty)

    hortense (aka horace) (4e40ae)

  145. The judges who struck down racist state laws and enforced the 1960s civil rights legislation were acting (decades belatedly) to give effect to the post-Civil War constitutional amendments that forbade discrimination on the basis of race, national origin, and previous conditions of servitude.

    Hmmm, you would have thunk, then, that the very legislators who passed the Civil War amendments would have raised issues about segregated schools . They didn’t, because no black was ‘deprived of liberty’ by being provided with a free, though segregated, education. Brown was just as vacuous as Roe v. Wade

    hortense (aka horace) (4e40ae)

  146. “Patterico–I can sympathize with the copulatory sentiments, but a first-time reader to this site will gain a false impression of your blog’s usual maturity and lack of vulgarity.”

    Personally, I think cussing out liberal judges is good for the soul…as long as you don’t have to argue a case in their court the next day. That would not be a good strategy.

    Dave Surls (c9eba9)

  147. “because no black was ‘deprived of liberty’”

    That wasn’t the issue in Brown. The issue was equal protection under the law.

    Dave Surls (c9eba9)

  148. Patterico is right: these judges will indeed get people killed by recklessly forcing California to release convicted felons rather than discomfort them. With their lifetime appointments, and guided by ideology above all, they are free to ignore every dictate of law and morality, just for the sheer loony left thrill of it all. Months from now there will be a third grader doing her homework in a park after school, or a cashier working the late shift at a convenience store to put himself through college, or an old woman walking home from the bus stop because she no longer feels safe driving at night, and one of them will be killed by a man these judges release, and the TV stations will all send their telegenic morons to report the story breathlessly and live, and it will be called a tragedy that defies explanation….but we will all know the explanation perfectly well.

    Kevin Stafford (5d18a5)

  149. Beldar: Thank You.
    Patterico: Thank You.

    Thoughts to consider and ponder, and decide what I believe to work with my core beliefs.

    I live in north-central AZ. I chose this for a LOT of VERY GOOD reasons.
    This is a VERY large county. Average Deputy response time to any 911 call is 43 minutes.

    I believe it is up to me to take care of me.

    1. The first line of defense is my Lab-mix Sally.

    Dan_P from AZ (a4bddb)

  150. I clicked that link about the 77% wanting the pubic option, but the hotel wifi blocked it – probably because I’m out in the bar. Damn Mexican fascists!

    If any of yous guys got the “usuario” or “clave” that gets me into that link, muchas gracias.

    carlitos (e7707a)

  151. OK, the system blew me off.
    2. Sally saved me, I take care of her.
    3. She alerts me “any time”. Most times are just coyotes, not a big problem.
    4. I have, day-time, always. A S&W snubby .38 Special within reach.
    5. Day-time, a .45 Long Colt single-action within a few steps.
    6. Night-time, plus the S&W, a 15 round 9mm Beretta semi-auto pistol.(Military side-arm).
    7. By the bed-side, a Mossberg 12 gauge 8 round shotgun with 00 Buckshot.

    Is this overkill ? Well, of course. {:^)
    Until Sally “tells me” so of our local meth-heads are going crazy.

    Let them out. Let all those crazy people are out. My dog & I are ready.
    All she needs are food, water, and my love.
    She has it, and she has earned it many times over.
    Dan

    Dan_P from AZ (a4bddb)

  152. Oops, sorry, I forgot to say I am a right-wing gun parinoid asshole. A total asshele.
    Who way back in the ’60’s and ’70’s was a totally left-wing liberal.
    I sure wish those liberal folks had met my expectations.
    Not to be.
    And, they made me into who I am.

    Dan_P from AZ (a4bddb)

  153. Typos. Damn the typo’s.
    That happens when an ‘ol man tries to present
    a thought while watching the “close and exciting”
    football game. {:^)
    Not the first time I’ve screwed up.
    Probably not the last.

    Dan_P from AZ (a4bddb)

  154. The basic argument here seems to be that because there are so many people in jail, inmates are recieving “substandard” medical care. If that’s the case, then why doesn’t the federal government just pay for some doctors?

    It’s not like if you turn these guys loose, they’re going to be heading for the Mayo Clinic on their dime. Most likely, if they get turned loose, they’re not going to get any medical care at all, unless they’re the sort of criminals who buy their own health insurance.

    We all know the current government is in love with the idea of spending money…so why not provide some assistance to the state, so that we don’t have to just turn thousands of criminals loose?

    Wouldn’t it be better to hire some doctors (at least temporarily), rather than turn tens of thousands of convicted criminals loose?

    Personally, I hate the idea of the feds forking out money for purposes not called for by the Constitution, but I’d rather do that than have a bunch of criminals running loose. Especially since it won’t solve the basic complaint (quality of medical care) which everyone, including these idiot judges, knows damn well these guys aren’t going to get if they’re released.

    Dave Surls (ed6b52)

  155. The more criminals I meet, the less I believe about rehabilitation. Mental health care improvement is probably the answer.

    carlitos (e7707a)

  156. Soldiers and sailors aren’t criminals. Criminals aren’t soldiers and sailors. They’re in different conceptual categories. It would be inappropriate to treat unlike things as if they were alike.

    Fritz (0b030e)

  157. Logically, that’s true. But does the Eighth Amendment’s guarantee against “cruel and unusual punishment” make that distinction?

    DRJ (3f5471)

  158. “You’re perhaps thinking of 1954 and Brown v. Board of Education, which prompted supporters of Jim Crow racist laws to criticize federal judges for supposedly overstepping their bounds. But I wasn’t thinking of that, nor deliberately using those critics’ language, for although the color of the robes remains unchanged, the situations aren’t remotely comparable:”

    I was thinking of the Warren court finding all sorts of rights for those on the bottom of the power structure: minorities, criminals, the arrested, the charged, etc.. and overturning precedents, “states rights” and, arguably, original intent in these areas. And how it got some peoples mighty upset.

    As you notice, this ruling is a continuation of that mindset. And so are the complaints.

    imdw (490521)

  159. “That wasn’t the issue in Brown. The issue was equal protection under the law.”

    And the later justice rehnquist wrote a neat little memo on that issue.

    imdw (490521)

  160. California spends about $14,000 per inmate every year on health care while other states spend a fraction of that; New York spends $5,800 and Florida spends $4,300. The federal government spent $4,400 in 2007. California’s prison medical staff has tripled over the last 10 years. It may be the opinion of three liberal federal judges that California’s prison health care is inadequate, but these numbers belie that myth.

    Dave Surls,

    If we are paying a considerably higher cost per inmate than other states, then why the supposed sub-standard care?

    Dana (863a65)

  161. “Logically, that’s true. But does the Eighth Amendment’s guarantee against “cruel and unusual punishment” make that distinction?”

    Scalia would say it does. The sailors are not there for punishment, so the prohibiton on cruel and unusual punishment would not apply. See his logic here:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/nationalaffairs/index.php/2008/04/28/scalia-torture-not-cruel-and-unusual/

    Fab, ain’t it?

    imdw (490521)

  162. Government health care strikes again!

    DRJ (3f5471)

  163. Actually, it makes sense, imdw. The Eighth Amendment doesn’t prohibit every cruel and unusual thing in life, just cruel and unusual punishment by the government. But I still think it’s reasonable to compare like situations, such as what overcrowding means in a prison context and what it means in other instances.

    DRJ (3f5471)

  164. I’ve read some social science type stuff that reports that despite popular perceptions to the contrary, Vietnam Veterans were less likely to be alcoholics, less likely to be homeless, and generally less likely than the general population to exhibit a whole host of anti-social behavior. And they weren’t all volunteers and many of them had been in the shit.

    I would imagine (and here I’m positing a hypothesis based on no evidence) that our modern, all-volunteer military exhibits significantly less anti-social behaviors than the general population.

    In any case, no-one in prison is a volunteer (at least in a common-sense understanding of the term, though they all voluntarily did something that landed them there) and they all engaged in anti-social behavior of one kind of another. Prisoners are more likely to be substance abusers and more likely to be homeless than the general population.

    They’re very different populations and I don’t think it’s appropriate to compare them in this way.

    Fritz (0b030e)

  165. “Dave Surls,”

    “If we are paying a considerably higher cost per inmate than other states, then why the supposed sub-standard care?”

    You got me. You would have to ask the judges about that one.

    “In their order last month, the judges said overcrowding is the primary cause of substandard healthcare and mental healthcare in state prisons.”

    I’m presuming that they mean that there aren’t enough doctors/medicine whatever to go around, hence their demand that the prison population be reduced.

    Dave Surls (ed6b52)

  166. Fritz,

    I would agree with your assumptions (and am just too lazy to dig up supporting studies right now), but we are talking about human beings in both populations. If the problem is living conditions, then comparing one group of human beings to another seems appropriate. Unless your contention is that prisoners inherently deserve/need better living conditions than military, an environment that one group can voluntarily function in should not be considered cruel and unusual for another.

    Substandard quarters are common for active-duty and not considered cruel. For prisoners, why should the standards be higher?

    Stashiu3 (ed6467)

  167. If the issue is mental health care, that’s easier. Prison populations typically average 16-17% needing mental health care. The vast majority are not mental illness in the clinical sense, but personality disorders. The last figures I saw placed it at about 85% of that 16-17%. For prisoners, getting treated for these as a mental illness instead of with group therapy (the most effective treatment available), gives them something to point to as mitigation in sentencing, appeals, paroles, etc…

    There are no real consequences for acting mentally ill when you really have maladaptive behavior patterns, which in this population simply means criminal habits. Adjust the treatment plans to account for this and you greatly reduce the amount of resources you need for that facility.

    Stashiu3 (ed6467)

  168. Of course, it would be cruel to demand that prisoners check to see if IEDs are active, rush enemy gun nests, or man a guard post in Afghanistan.

    Our troops do things that are unpleasant, and often because if they don’t our nation if a lot less safe. The quarters that the Army has been going to, and that the sailors no doubt enjoy on land stateside, are often suitable for an intelligent professional in any profession.

    But I still agree that our prisons need not be ‘nice’. It is not cruel to eat cold or tasteless food. It is not cruel to live in a cement cell with almost no space and no privacy. If the measures are there for efficient administration of justice, then it’s not cruelty. If you go out of your way to make lives unbearable, that’s a different matter.

    We have a huge criminal class. Until we figure out how to decimate it, we will not be able to sustain the level of imprisonment we have as it is. We need to accept ridiculous crime, or come up with some kind of prison system that doesn’t cost society so much money. I can’t think of a solution, but things just aren’t sustainable.

    Juan (bd4b30)

  169. The more I read I about this, the more it looks like a big old scam…

    http://prisonmovement.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/californias-health-care-for-inmates-prison-or-versailles/

    Dave Surls (ed6b52)

  170. “SACRAMENTO (AP) – The rate at which inmates are dying in California prisons is dropping, a possible result of a federal takeover of the medical system. The annual rate dropped from nearly 300 deaths per 100,000 inmates in early 2006 to about 200 deaths per 100,000 inmates in mid-2008. The federal court-appointed receiver who oversees the prison medical system attributes the decline to the hiring of hundreds of doctors and nurses.”

    By way of comparison, the annual death rate for the United States general population (according to the CDC) is 810 per 100,000.

    Oh, btw, according to the BJS, the annual death rate for inmates in state prisons nationwide is about 250 per 100,000 (for the years 2001-2006).

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcrp/tables/dcst06spt3.htm

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcrp/tables/dcst06spt8.htm

    As you can see from the BJS statistics many states had far higher death rates in their state prisons than California did, and California’s were below the national average.

    Louisiana led the pack with 402 deaths per 100,000, Tennessee 387, Pennsylvania 346…and California’s death rate was only 213 per 100,000…according to the federal government’s own figures.

    What’s it going to take for Thelton Henderson and co. to be satisfied? A death rate of zero?

    I think we’re being had, fellas.

    This looks like a big old boondoggle to me, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with health care in our state prison system overall, at least not compared to other states.

    Dave Surls (ed6b52)

  171. So imdw is still a chicken-prisoner-releaser.

    JD (0ac8d6)

  172. I went back and re-read the tentative release order. The State has conceded that California’s prison population is at 200% design capacity; the Governor declared a state of emergency in the prisons due to overcrowding which is still in effect; the preponderance of the evidence is that overcrowding is the reason for inadequate medical and health care which was the basis of the original complaint.

    ON THE OTHER HAND … I did not find a clear statement by the Court that “we must do this”. I found “we are allowed to do this”.

    I think the issue will finally play out in the Supreme Court.

    nk (df76d4)

  173. Comment by Dave Surls — 9/8/2009 @ 12:46 am

    Comparing prison populations to the entire population death rate is a non-starter. Prisons hold a younger population with fewer elderly that you expect to die off.

    Soronel Haetir (2b4c2b)

  174. Patrick,

    Probably the most profane post that I’ve ever seen from you. Considering the subject, I’ll simply add this: Good for you. Some things are worth cursing about.

    physics geek (6669a4)

  175. This controversy demonstrates the corruption of our legal system by the “living, breathing document” crowd. Those types and conditions of incarceration found to be “not cruel and unusual” at the time of the adoption of the BoR, should today be acceptable; but, would never be agreed to by the likes of Stephan Reinhardt, who have “evolved” onto a higher plane of rediculousness.

    AD - RtR/OS! (13c1a1)

  176. This isn’t about providing adequate health care, it’s about turning prisons into resorts…

    ‘Of course California’s prison inmates are entitled to reasonable 21st-century health care. Unfortunately for taxpayers, Clark Kelso, the federal receiver in charge of California’s prison health care has, as state Attorney General Jerry Brown noted at a news conference last week, a “gold-plated wish list” for California’s prison health care system.’

    ‘His Receivership wants to spend $8 billion to build seven new hospitals, each the size of 10 Wal-Marts, which would create “a holistic environment,” with “music therapy, art therapy and other recreation therapy functions,” a music room, stress-reduction room, game room and “therapy kitchen,” with lots of natural light and high ceilings. A gymnasium would feature a “full-size high school playing court with basketball hoops and built-in edge seating up to four rows deep. Various floor striping allows for other games, such as volleyball, etc. Other sport activities include handball courts, exercise, and (a) workout room.”’

    And, it’s also about making cronies of judges rich by sucking off the taxpayers…

    ‘Henderson’s remedies, however, have had their problems, as well. The first receiver, Robert Sillen, once threatened to “back up the Brinks truck” to the state’s treasury to bankroll better inmate care — and he clearly meant it. Sillen was paid $775,790 in the 15 months, ending in June 2007. An audit found no fraud, but it found that Sillen authorized $218,790 in overpayments to staff members for such benefits as health insurance and retirement that they already had received.’

    ‘Henderson fired Sillen and then hired Kelso, who set his own annual salary at $224,000 — plus a possible bonus. The Schwarzenegger-Brown motion complains that Kelso’s “large staff and $74 million in administrative expenses” are duplicative and amount to a full-scale takeover of the state prison health care system.’

    ‘In the meantime, health care spending per inmate rose from $7,601 per inmate in 2005-06 to $13,778 per inmate in 2007-08 — an 81 percent increase and far above the average of $4,600 spent on health care per Californian…’

    If the article is correct, then this is stealing, pure and simple.

    All quoted material taken from the Deborah Saunders article I linked to above.

    Dave Surls (ba0cc8)

  177. Awesome post. Thats all I can say.

    Chuck (df980d)

  178. […] But that has a price — and it’s a price which will have to be borne by the patients, and their insurance companies. That means, of course, that health insurance premiums will have to rise, putting more people, at the margins, unable to afford private health insurance, and stuck with whatever is offered as the “pubic option.” […]

    Common Sense Political Thought » Blog Archive » Tuesday health care notes (73d96f)

  179. Was it the French who hanged judges from the lamp posts? They did take off the heads of the elites who consistently failed to listen to the people they ruled.

    Rance Fasoldt (8b058c)

  180. More on how lefty judges, and lefty “prison reformers” are getting together to rob the taxpayers blind…

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/politicalmuscle/2006/12/robert_sillen_i.html

    Dave Surls (ba0cc8)

  181. When the DOD closed Fort Devens, in Massachusetts, several parts of it were converted to uses for the Bureau of Prisons. For instance, the former military hospital became a hospice for violent felons coming to the end of life without parole — but of course, it needed tens of millions of upgrades to treat felons, not the GIs of the Army Intelligence School, 39th Engineer Battalion, 10th Special Forces Group and other Devens units.

    The intel school barracks were meant to be converted into a minimum security “camp.” These were brick barracks, the same as the other units were in. I lived in a barrack room like that (or had one assigned to me while I was shacked up with a girlfriend off post) for most of five years. But they didn’t meet BOP standards so they were rebuilt with all new windows, better insulation, air conditioning and improved heat, etc.

    Alas, BOP raised its standards, and the newly converted (at $1.7m per building) barracks fell short again — this time because there was not enough square footage for each of the little dears in the rooms.

    Now, an NCO would have had a room like that to him- or herself, and SF rarely more than doubled up, but the junior enlisted folks at the engineers and the intel school were four and five to one of these rooms. And everyone knew it was way better digs than the Navy gets at sea.

    Frankly each of these judges ought to get a few of the inmates. Give the rest to the lawyers who sue for them and all their pals at the Atheist Criminal Lovers Union. They only pull this crap because they know that their upper-class towns are not where the convicts are going to swarm on release.

    We’ve seen the same situation with GWOT detainees. You know, if you keep raising the futility index on the folks who bag these guys, those folks are going to stop taking chances to bag them alive.

    On the other hand, I’m not surprised. It’s funny that lawyers all think the law is something beautiful and reliable. Everyone who isn’t enmeshed in the system understands that the only input that influences the outcome of court cases is money — and apart from that, what comes out of the courts is as random as roulette.

    “Justice” is an empty label.

    Kevin R.C. O'Brien (1ef10c)

  182. […] but I didn’t realize that he wasn’t just a liberal judge, like Harold Baer or Stephen Reinhardt, but a black liberal judge, a factor mentioned by neither Charen or […]

    “Right Up There With Oxygen”—Why Race Is Important, And Who It’s Important To by James Fulford | National Policy Institute (f8be13)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.6614 secs.