Patterico's Pontifications

3/19/2024

Whiny Demand: Super Wealthy Republicans Should Lend Trump Money

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:40 am



[guest post by Dana]

The expectation that anyone should bail Trump out of the mess that he made seems to contradict the historical view of Republicans that it is an admirable thing to ‘pull one up by their own bootstraps’ rather than be dependent on others. It doesn’t even occur to Levin that uber-wealthy Republicans are sharp enough to understand that Trump is a dishonest man who will never change his corrupt ways and that they prefer to back winners instead of losers. Levin also assumes that wealthy Republicans have an obligation to loan Trump money. But consider, they didn’t become billionaires and multi-billionaires by flushing good money after bad. After all, loaning someone money suggests that it will be paid back. Donald Trump has never been known to be an honest broker who pays off his debts.

These “party first” people are so clueless. Do they not understand how many Republicans have left the party because of Trump’s corruption? Do they not realize that more and more Republicans and former Republican voters have decided that a vote for Biden to keep Trump out of the Oval Office is the only sensible option after years of watching the bellicose grifter trample the Constitution and rule of law?

Moreover, I just looked up the combined wealth of Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump – they are billionaires. Don Jr. is worth approximately $200 million. Eric Trump and wife Laura are worth a combined $350 million. So what’s stopping his very wealthy children from helping him out?

P.S. It appears that Mark Levin himself is a multi-millionaire, so perhaps he can lead by example and pony up first…

—Dana

125 Responses to “Whiny Demand: Super Wealthy Republicans Should Lend Trump Money”

  1. Not to mention the billionaires and multi-billionaires who pulled their money from Trump and instead supported DeSantis and/or Haley…

    Dana (8e902f)

  2. Everything for Mark Levin is an outrage.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  3. Again, I suggest Trump borrow the money from the Russian, Qatari, or Saudi Arabian sovereign wealth funds. I’m sure they would be glad to lend a helping hand.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  4. Elon Mush can find the Trump’s bond amount in his sofa.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  5. SAD!

    Former White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham proposed a list of properties former President Trump would be most disappointed to have seized if he cannot pay the damages in his civil fraud case.

    “I think if it were to happen, 40 Wall Street is probably the one that he would … I mean, he would hate it,” Grisham told CNN’s Erin Burnett on Monday. “But I think if she tried to seize Mar-a-Lago or Bedminster or Trump Tower even — I mean, those are his babies.”

    “You’ve got the Sterling golf course in Virginia. Any of the properties with golf courses, I think, would absolutely devastate him,” added Grisham, who worked under the Trump administration. “It will be interesting to see what [New York Attorney General Letitia James] goes for.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  6. When is Levin NOT outraged about something.

    Paul Montagu (4e633b)

  7. #5

    I’d go for the New York properties first. If they don’t satisfy the judgment, go after properties in blue states. (Some state judge might feel the need to muck around with the processs) Of course, Ms James might want to put a lien on Judge Cannon, because Trump seems to own her free and clear.

    Appalled (7fa668)

  8. The thing that gets me every time is the differential set of standards. Again, what do each of us stand for, when we support or do not support candidates.

    As for Mr. Levin, I suggest that he has long been in a forward feedback loop of wackiness.

    Just like his various nemeses (nk, is that the plural of nemesis?).

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  9. I will not be surprised when Elon Musk fronts the money, given that he has similar problems with a judge.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  10. @5: Another vote for lawfare.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  11. OF course if anyone loans Trump the money NY will go after them for an illegal campaign contribution.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  12. #10

    My observation is that, given the Judge Cannon nonsense in Florida, I am far less perturbed by New York’s aggressive enforcement actions. Things have a way of balancing out.

    In a fully just world, Bragg would have declined to prosecute, the Espionage Act would already have Trump in prison, and opening arguments for the Jack Smith DC trial would be starting. (And Fani Willis would have found love on Tinder, rather than in her office)

    Since the world is not often as just as it should be, I will take that the profoundly guilty often get had up for the crimes they didn’t commit, and Attorney Generals impose punishments based on the crimes they did not get them for as well as the ones that they did.

    Appalled (c8439b)

  13. This (valid) complaint is true of *all* these “help [insert cause du jour]” pitches.

    Celebrities are constantly demanding that middle-class people, who are already having trouble making ends meet, pony up their hard-earned money to grease their pet project’s palms. See: Alyssa Milano. Meanwhile they all but refuse to provide any help themselves.

    And PS, Kevin M is correct yet again in his assessments. It’s nice that there’s one person here who can despise Trump but still see his way through all the disturbing issues with his prosecution.

    qdpsteve again (8f9c49)

  14. Not a mess he made for himself. He was politically targeted in NY by an AG that promised to go after him and a biased judge that deliberately understated the value of his property and overstated the alleged civil fines.

    Carry on with the 2 minutes of hate as you support flushing our country down the toilet.

    NJRob (f9f34e)

  15. 11. Kevin M (8676e4) — 3/19/2024 @ 12:10 pm

    OF course if anyone loans Trump the money NY will go after them for an illegal campaign contribution.

    It’s all right if it is a sound business decision against god collateral, at an interest rate at least that of Treasuries.

    Now in 1992 Democratic primary campaign, Bill Clinton got a very chancy loan from the Worthen National Bank (which had BCCI figures involved in it) against fake collateral – federal matching funds that turned into reality only because he won primaries and thus continued to get contributions.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/05/us/1992-campaign-personal-finances-wealthy-investment-family-big-help-clinton.html

    Last month, the Worthen National Bank approved a credit line that allows the Clinton campaign to borrow up to $2 million.

    I have the BCCI connection here:

    https://thetimes-tribune.newspapers.com/article/the-atlanta-constitution/134450968/?locale=en-US

    I didn’t quickly find an assertion that the loan was based on lies. But here’sone that says campaign help for his 1990 campaign for governor (and also for president) violated campaign finance laws and other laws:
    (here it seems to be straw donors and getting money back from the bank)

    https://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/30/us/arkansas-bank-s-loans-clintons-are-crux-latestwhitewater-case.html

    Mr. Starr’s team of prosecutors has accused the banker, Robert M. Hill, and his partner Herby Branscum Jr., who own the Perry County Bank, of conspiring to break banking and campaign laws. Prosecutors say they concealed large cash payments to the 1990 Clinton campaign and funneled big contributions through their friends and family, including much of the $15,500 delivered to Mr. Clinton in the December meeting. The bankers are also accused of improperly using bank money to reimburse themselves for a variety of contributions to Clinton campaigns for governor and President.

    Their motive for breaking the law, one prosecutor said in his opening statement last week, was to “ingratiate themselves” with the Clinton campaign in the hope of obtaining state jobs that would give them significant influence in the small world of largely one-party politics in Arkansas.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  16. The Bragg trial has been postponed for at least a month owing to delayed delivery of discovery materials (which Trump blames on Bragg not asking hard enough) concerning the federal case that involved Michael Cohen which Trump’s lawyers they want to mine to impeach Michael Cohen’s credibility.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  17. I think Trump will be able to post the bond at the last minute-this is all performance art, like most of his campaign.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. like most of his campaign.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/19/2024 @ 2:00 pm

    You spelled “life” wrong.

    norcal (189898)

  19. norcal (189898) — 3/19/2024 @ 2:20 pm

    Touché!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  20. Ouch!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  21. Sad!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  22. The Harry Reid Filibuster rule applies here.

    One day in the very near future, a Republican judge will find a Dem Sugar Daddy (Gates, Bezos, maybe even Soros himself) guilty of some made-up violation and freeze all their assets.

    And none of you will have a leg to stand on because you encouraged it this time.
    Pendulums eventually swing the other way, you know…

    SaveFarris (942f52)

  23. #22

    And when those sugar daddies try to steal an election and launch a coup, I will be happy that the GOP justice is striking a blow for liberty.

    Appalled (c8439b)

  24. Trump’s charges aren’t “made up” but ditto what Appalled said.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  25. … a biased judge that deliberately understated the value of his property and overstated the alleged civil fines.

    Trump is the one who understated the value of his properties for tax purposes and overstated it for to get lower interest rates on loans. For example, Mar-a-lago:

    In 2002, amid financial headwinds, Trump signed a deed easement that allowed him to turn the 17-acre resort from a residential property into a club. The easement essentially allowed Trump to turn Mar-a-Lago into new streams of income and benefit from tax breaks granted by the estate’s new status. Financial disclosure forms show that between 2017 and 2019, Mar-a-Lago brought in over $69 million.

    Trump initially drew up a plan to subdivide the property in the 1990s, but the proposal was met with significant pushback from the Palm Beach community who did not want the town’s “residential hood ornament” to become a club, Shanklin said.

    Instead, Trump decided to turn it into a club by giving locals the protected easement, which states that “the Club and Trump intend to forever extinguish their right to develop or use the Property for any purpose other than club use.”

    When asked about the language on Monday, the former president said, “‘Intend’ doesn’t mean we will do it,” calling it “bravado” and not “legal intent.”

    By definition, the words in a legal agreement convey legal intent, not bravado. But Trump gave the world a look into his psyche in that quote. The law never applies to him.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  26. Trump wants to value Mar-a-Lago at the price it would bring if he sold it to be subdivided, even though he legally changed its status so that it could never be subdivided to lower his tax burden.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  27. The jumped-up bellboy got his baksheesh up front. He’s holding on to it and cadging for more because “Why not?”

    nk (bb1548)

  28. By definition, the words in a legal agreement convey legal intent, not bravado. But Trump gave the world a look into his psyche in that quote. The law never applies to him.

    DRJ (c673a9) — 3/19/2024 @ 3:13 pm

    It astounds me that after all these years, and so much evidence, there are still people who can’t see what a degenerate Trump is, and how he degrades civil discourse.

    norcal (189898)

  29. I think Trump is claiming that a statement that he “intend” is not binding and he has to follow through and he never did or that it only applies through the period of his ownership and the existence of the club and a new owner would not be bound. Whether anything like that is so or not depends on an examination of the record. But you’d think words mean something.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  30. I don’t think Mark Levin gives a fig about Trump posting bond. All he cares about is keeping his audience whipped up in its outrage of entitlement. The whining and foot-stomping keeps them entertained.

    What a bore!

    Kenneth P. (1f45e0)

  31. Kenneth P. (1f45e0) — 3/19/2024 @ 3:42 pm

    It’s not just Levin. It’s Tucker Carlson, Ben Shapiro, and almost anyone with a TV or radio show that leans right. As long as Trumpers are the biggest group on the right, these media figures will play to that group, because that’s where the ratings (i.e., money) are.

    In 2016, Shapiro said he would never vote for Trump. Now Shapiro is co-hosting a fundraiser for Trump, and says he would “walk over broken glass to vote for him [Trump].”

    norcal (189898)

  32. I slopped all the water I could spare into Trump’s trough in the Colorado and Georgia cases. He can carry his own to his mud wallow now as far as I’m concerned.

    nk (bb1548)

  33. LOL why aren’t people who are smart lending money to Trump (who has filed for bankruptcy and otherwise failed to repay his debts so many times).

    It is a mystery.

    Dustin (c1324d)

  34. So no one here is gonna send money to help poor ol’ Donnie with his legal troubles? I’m SHOCKED I tell you!! SHOCKED!!!!!!1!

    In the meantime, I’m gonna start calling the proprietor here Pat “Cougar”-terico. 😉

    https://www.outkick.com/culture/john-mellencamp-is-an-idiot-for-playing-toledo-on-st-patricks-day

    qdpsteve again (8f9c49)

  35. Once again, most of you don’t care because of whose ox is being gored not giving a darn about the political consequences or legal precedent.

    Broken by hate.

    NJRob (51f9b6)

  36. One day in the very near future, a Republican judge will find a Dem Sugar Daddy (Gates, Bezos, maybe even Soros himself) guilty of some made-up violation and freeze all their assets.

    If Bill Gates stepped into this election as an independent (he won’t), he’d be the favorite.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  37. Trump wants to value Mar-a-Lago at the price it would bring if he sold it to be subdivided, even though he legally changed its status so that it could never be subdivided to lower his tax burden.

    He can’t. But are you going to say that a creditor-in-possession could not? The loan valuation is what it would bring the creditor, not what the debtor can do with it. People took out huge loans on Orange County, CA farmland. Their assessment was based on current use, but the value as housing was much much higher.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  38. I will take back every lousy thing I’ve said about the NY cases if they force Trump out of the Presidential race. But failing that, what use are they?

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  39. Lot of people channeling their inner Nifong in this thread.

    lloyd (05649e)

  40. Nifong never had a case to prosecute. Trump’s was already adjudicated.

    Paul Montagu (d52d7d)

  41. Lot of people channeling their inner Nifong in this thread.

    And some are channeling their inner Baghdad Bob.

    norcal (4a1f13)

  42. Maybe because trump continues to lose 20% of votes in republican primarys today after Haley drops out. Biden losing 15% of vote to mariane williamson and uncommitted.

    asset (d33dbb)

  43. In collection actions, there is something called a citation to discover assets. We may find out that Trump has a negative net worth.

    That his Trump Organization said to be composed of more than 500 entities is a form of pyramid scheme, consisting of overvalued, overleveraged, and maybe even non-existent assets supporting each other hand-to-mouth by elaborate check-kiting trails, but providing him with day-to-day cash flow to support his lifestyle.

    We’ll see.

    nk (bb1548)

  44. All he cares about is keeping his audience whipped up in its outrage of entitlement. The whining and foot-stomping keeps them entertained.

    Kenneth P. (1f45e0) — 3/19/2024 @ 3:42 pm

    I actually had a talk with someone in this group last night. I wouldn’t say she was entertained. I would say she was…well…outraged. She kept asking me why I didn’t care about the injustice of it all.

    What Levin et al are doing is not a crime. I wish it were. Then we could prosecute and recover at least some of the money they have gained by lying to a large percentage of the American people. But it IS a sin. And they will be partly responsible for the ultimate blowback, which will arrive eventually. Unlike the former president, the Gods of the Copybook Headings always settle their accounts.

    And some are channeling their inner Baghdad Bob.

    norcal (4a1f13) — 3/19/2024 @ 9:50 pm

    Response of the thread.

    Demosthenes (fac686)

  45. The Gods of the Copybook Headings

    With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
    They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
    They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
    So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

    Heh!

    nk (bb1548)

  46. But the outrage IS the entertainment. It’s kind of like a slasher film, where the emotional surge that people seek comes in the form of fright and terror.

    If people weren’t entertained by the outrage, they wouldn’t be drawn to it.

    Kenneth P. (1f45e0)

  47. “But it IS a sin.”

    “But the outrage IS the entertainment.”

    Agreed. People should be outraged over fake electors, lies about stolen elections, attempts to “find” votes, and recklessly inciting riots. They should be outraged that the Senate failed to do its Constitutional duty and convict Trump. The fact that the Court system is forced to exact some accountability is not outrageous.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  48. If people weren’t entertained by the outrage, they wouldn’t be drawn to it.

    Kenneth P. (1f45e0) — 3/20/2024 @ 6:03 am

    I get what you’re saying. And I think it’s true of a lot of the people we’re talking about here — of all of them, at first. But some of them are no longer entertained…at least not as most people use that term. They are in the far more dangerous stage where the outrage drug has numbed their dopamine sensors. They keep injecting it even though each dose offers zero or minimal return. They are now consuming it out of habit. It still does the same amount of damage to them. They just don’t feel it anymore.

    I mean, I don’t want to quibble over words. (This morning.) But I do resist the notion that my interlocutor was entertained. I was talking to her several years ago when her voice was quivering with rage and confusion about all the “election fraud” that was being “uncovered.” Now she takes that all for granted. It’s like we were both standing next to a skyscraper, but she has been hypnotically conditioned to the point where she sees a pit in the earth. There SHOULD be a skyscraper there, she agrees. But there isn’t one. It’s plain as day. Saying so no longer agitates her. The only thing that even arouses confusion in her is why I keep insisting that the skyscraper is RIGHT THERE.

    Demosthenes (fac686)

  49. People should be outraged over fake electors, lies about stolen elections, attempts to “find” votes, and recklessly inciting riots. They should be outraged that the Senate failed to do its Constitutional duty and convict Trump.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 3/20/2024 @ 6:24 am

    It’s one of the great parlor tricks of the Very Very Online Hyper-Masculinist Red-Pilled Alpha Chad Right that so many people are NOT outraged. Shameful people like Jack Posobiec, and that guy who got arrested in — I think Romania? But I don’t care enough to look it up.

    I am reminded of a book, several years old now, from the execrable Theodore “Vox Day” Beale. It was called “SJWs Always Lie,” and it got a lot of play and positive mention among the alt-right. (Now, sadly, very much the mainstream right.) It basically sought to “inoculate” its audience against leftism by purporting to show how they argued.

    Look at how the Trumpers are arguing right now, and you will see the same playbook being executed perfectly. For example, one of the tenets of “SJW rhetoric” was (and I’m paraphrasing) to accuse your enemies of what you’re guilty of. The main players lie about the Democrats stealing an election to cover up the fact that their guy tried to steal an election. The dittoheads who don’t know better then spread their lie to the four winds.

    I wonder whether part of the reason they have been so successful is because they got their audience to associate these tactics with “The Left,” while identifying themselves as being on the right. You know…they can get away with using these same tactics because their audience literally doesn’t expect it coming from them. Like the magician who natters on about misdirection as something OTHER magicians do.

    I’m not sure these thoughts entirely cohere. I’m just thinking out loud.

    Demosthenes (fac686)

  50. “And some are channeling their inner Baghdad Bob.”

    The mouthpiece of regime that put their opposition in prison? Yep, that too. Same folks.

    The case in the post has nothing to do with a coup, insurrection or fake electors. You can’t even keep your lawfare straight. But jackals will feed on whatever’s in front of them.

    lloyd (05649e)

  51. Demosthenes, as usual your comments are quite insightful.

    Just think of Fox News as a gateway drug…..

    Kenneth P. (1f45e0)

  52. Just think of Fox News as a gateway drug…..

    Kenneth P. (1f45e0) — 3/20/2024 @ 7:10 am

    Quite. And you know they’re too far gone when they start talking about Fox News as the corporate leftist uniparty opposition outlet, and ask you if you’ve ever heard of the most truly reliable mainstream news channel of all…Newsmax.

    And let’s not even get into Gateway Pundit…

    Demosthenes (bf240a)

  53. That’s exactly what the EPA intends to do this week with strict new rules going forward against gas- and diesel-powered cars and light trucks.

    Expected as soon as Wednesday, the Biden EPA “is poised to finalize emissions rules that will effectively require a certain percentage — as much as two-thirds by 2032 — of new cars to be all-electric,” according to Inside EVs. Politico sells the expected rule as one that would “tackle the nation’s biggest source of planet-warming pollution and accelerate the transition to electric vehicles.”

    The rule would require carmakers to cut their average emissions of carbon dioxide by 52% between 2027 and 2032. EPA projects that the standard would push the car industry to ensure that electric cars and light trucks make up about 67% of new vehicles by model year 2032.

    This is what you get when you vote for Biden and his leftist ideologues.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  54. I get what you’re saying. And I think it’s true of a lot of the people we’re talking about here — of all of them, at first. But some of them are no longer entertained…at least not as most people use that term. They are in the far more dangerous stage where the outrage drug has numbed their dopamine sensors. They keep injecting it even though each dose offers zero or minimal return. They are now consuming it out of habit. It still does the same amount of damage to them. They just don’t feel it anymore.

    Nailed NeverTrump in 1.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  55. It is the wise child which knows that Pwesident Twump is not their dada.

    I blame the public schools. If you’re going to teach impressionable young minds that George Washington is The Father Of Our Country ….

    nk (bb1548)

  56. And some are channeling their inner Baghdad Bob.

    A lot of that going around. I admit to doing that with opposition to Donald Trump since 2015. But I don’t feel as much like Saddam’s supporters as I do Churchill’s at Dunkirk. “The end of the beginning”

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  57. More Kipling, this about the GOP:

    If the home we never write to, and the oaths we never keep,
    And all we know most distant and most dear,
    Across the snoring barrack-room return to break our sleep,
    Can you blame us if we soak ourselves in beer?
    When the drunken comrade mutters and the great guard-lantern gutters
    And the horror of our fall is written plain,
    Every secret, self-revealing on the aching white-washed ceiling,
    Do you wonder that we drug ourselves from pain?

    We have done with Hope and Honour, we are lost to Love and Truth,
    We are dropping down the ladder rung by rung,
    And the measure of our torment is the measure of our youth.
    God help us, for we knew the worst too young!

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  58. If you’re going to teach impressionable young minds that George Washington is The Father Of Our Country ….

    If only. Today they teach he was a slaver and a rapist who rebelled against England for personal gain.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  59. Interesting:

    As Donald Trump faces a Monday deadline to post a $454 million bond in the civil fraud case against him in New York, insiders said he may be weighing a little-discussed option: Doing nothing.
    ……….
    While some reports have raised speculation that Trump may “go nuclear” with a Chapter 11 filing to protect his prize real estate assets across Manhattan, experts said bankruptcy would create unwelcome complications as the 2024 election season comes to a head.
    ………
    A third possibility, however, is to let the deadline pass, leaving it to New York Attorney General Letitia James to seize Trump’s bank accounts or buildings — including Trump Tower…….
    ……….
    It’s an option Trump appears to have considered – partly because he believes the chances are good that he could recover the assets on appeal, even if he is forced to take his case to the US Supreme Court, according to friends.

    A decision to do nothing poses risks of its own — among them that the New York AG’s Office has the right to sell off any properties it confiscates in order to recover the cash penalties it is owed.

    “They are going after the money and that’s all he has a right to get back, not the buildings — unless the judgment is reversed before they are sold,” said Adam Leitman Bailey, a New York-based attorney who’s focused on the commercial real estate sector.
    ……….
    “He’s not an ‘I’m passing the hat’ man — he doesn’t want pity or for anyone to feel sorry for him,” the source claimed. “He will do what he has to do. He has plenty of wealthy friends who would help him if asked, but he’s not asking, as far as I’m aware.”
    #########

    Doing nothing would fit in with Trump’s portrayal as a victim, but it is a gamble. Does he feel lucky?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  60. I’d expect James to sell everything quickly to favored buyers.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  61. Trump could appeal and then ask for an injunction against sales of the assets. If he has a prima facie case, they might grant it, and the valuations by Judge Erdogan are disputable.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  62. The harm to Trump is obvious, the harm to the state of a delay is negligible and might even be beneficial, given the current market.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  63. One reason I came to this website (many years ago) was to learn about the legal issues in national cases, especially in police cases. It is hard to judge the legal issues in courts in other States, especially when the reports are often by journalists that may not fully understand the law.

    I have learned a lot. There are often reasons why what seems right or wrong is the opposite. Patterico is especially good at fair analysis. He calls them as he sees them, not according to any preconceived result.

    Patterico’s fair analysis is true of the Trump charges, too, but too many of Trump’s supporters are not interested unless it benefits or helps Trump.

    We all have our preferences. I want a stronger border, support the police, and care about good courts, judges and attorneys … but not at the cost of excusing wrongdoing. Other people care about Trump and politics. I get that. But not at any cost.

    DRJ (49ab36)

  64. My understanding is that New York law is clear that if no bonds posted, assets can be levied on. The prosecutor can choose not to levy but a court can’t enjoin or stop it absent a bond.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  65. One or more of the Trump businesses may be considering bankruptcy. Not Trump but every Trump business that has an interest in his major property holdings.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  66. Patterico is especially good at fair analysis. He calls them as he sees them, not according to any preconceived result.

    Yes, but that does not mean that he (or any of us) is not influenced by a person like Donald Trump. It is sometimes hard to argue for such a flaming asshat, and cutting him an even break is even harder.

    One of my faults is that I have had to learn to be detached from personalities in my 12-step work and that detachment influences other things. So, I can deal with asshats more rationally and calmly that most. Lots and lots of practice. Doesn’t mean I come to like them, I’m just able to look at them as humans, too.

    Not everyone can, or wants to.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  67. My understanding is that New York law is clear that if no bonds posted, assets can be levied on. The prosecutor can choose not to levy but a court can’t enjoin or stop it absent a bond.

    The playing field seems even more tilted than I thought. If an (arguably) silly high judgement cannot be effectively appealed, then the trial judge has enormous and largely unchecked power. At which point federal due process claims seem likely.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  68. I am willing to bet that a federal judge can enjoin anything a state wants to do.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  69. All lawyers, even prosecutors, have crazy, crummy, or worse clients/cases. You quickly learn not to analyze the law based on how much you like or dislike your client or the case. You analyze the law carefully because your ethics and reputation require it.

    On an unrelated note, isn’t the deadline near for Trump to appeal the New York decision?

    DRJ (c673a9)

  70. In requesting a federal injunction, Trump would have an argument that he could suffer irreparable harm from having his assets seized. But he also has to show he has a likelihood of succeeding on the merits of his appeal and that the equities are in his favor.

    I think the likelihood of success is poor. I understand you don’t like the judges valuations but why are they clearly erroneous?

    DRJ (c673a9)

  71. You analyze the law carefully because your ethics and reputation require it.

    For example:

    In the October 8 interview (at pp. 54-55 of the transcript), Special Counsel Hur asked the President about the types of files and documents that he had kept at his residence at the Naval Observatory. Biden mentioned that he may have had a few speeches, press clippings, and photos. He then (at p. 56) diverted to his first day of law school. Here is what happened on that day, according to Biden:

    PRESIDENT BIDEN: I didn’t take law school very seriously, but I won the International Tort Competition. I was in — matter of fact, the first time in tort class, we had a really difficult professor. I mean, very well-known, Professor at Syracuse, and — he called on me to — you know how they do in law school, discuss a case, you know, in your first torts class. And I had never read the case, and I stood up and I spoke for 10 minutes. The whole class stood up, started clapping. (Laughter)

    PRESIDENT BIDEN: And he said, Mr. Biden, you’ll be a hell of a trial lawyer. He said, not a single thing you — had to do with that.

    Most knowledgeable people looking at this testimony would quickly conclude that it lacks credibility. But rather than go with just gut instinct, let’s take a closer look to see if there is any way this story could be true.

    BuDuh (4214e4)

  72. I understand you don’t like the judges valuations but why are they clearly erroneous?

    Because he did things like used assessments as valuations rather than real estate appraisals. In many places assessments are wildly different due to law, practice or stupid assessors. To say that a property that was worth X 40 years ago is still worth X (or 2X) is unreasonable.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  73. In particular, Florida law does not reassess property annually, but only increases it by a flat 3%. If the property is sold, it is then marked to market, but only then.

    So, if you have a property for 30 years, the assessor’s valuation will be about 2.5X the original purchase price, while the actual value — if it increased at a nominal 7% — would be about 8 times the original price.

    If, as in this case, substantial renovations were done and the area was increasing faster than the national average — say 12% per year — the actual value would be 30X the purchase price.

    Using the assessor’s valuation seems a rookie error, and just because the judge hired someone to do this for him does not mean that someone was objective or fair.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  74. Now, people mention the deed restriction. This was available to the lender who accepted Trump’s open-market valuation. Why would they do this? Typically big banks are not stupid and would not loan hundreds of millions on a property they could not sell for a 10th or that.

    IANAL (and not a Florida one either), but I’d guess that the deed restriction doesn’t apply to a creditor in possession. I had a condo at one point with some deed restrictions (e.g. no rentals) where a creditor in possession was exempted.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  75. The property value was assessed like the 8 other deed restricted clubs in Palm Beach. It is not a home and cannot be subdivided. And assessors base their values on property appraisal rules:

    Mar-a-Lago is not valued by the county as if it were a luxury home because it is a private club. Trump in 1995 signed a deed of conservation and preservation easement, which means he ceded the right to use the property for anything other than a social club.

    That means the property appraiser uses an income-based valuation for the property, Becky Robinson, a spokesperson for the property appraiser, told PolitiFact.

    “Mar-a-Lago is one of nine deed-restricted clubs in Palm Beach County, and all are valued in the same manner,” Robinson said. “The income approach to valuation capitalizes the net operating income that private clubs could generate. This means that the value of the property is determined based on the amount of income that it generates as a club.”

    That’s different from determining the value of a house, when appraisers consider recent sales of nearby homes, and determine a comparable value.

    There are legal reasons to value properties differently. If I only owned a partial interest in my home, I could not claim it is undervalued if the value is reduced. In this case, Trump owns property that is deed-restricted as a private club. That affects its value.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  76. Deed restrictions apply to anyone in the chain of title, i.e., any legal owner after the restriction was imposed.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  77. Deed restrictions apply to anyone in the chain of title, i.e., any legal owner after the restriction was imposed.

    Lessee what Letitia James sells it for then.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  78. Once lenders decide to lend, the loans are based on all collateral, personal guarantees, and interest rates are adjusted to reflect risk. Some lenders make bad loans.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  79. She has to go through a Florida court to levy on an asset in that State. Ditto for properties in any other State.

    Typically you file your judgment in a court with notice of an intent to levy.

    She may do that but will probably start in New York with assets there, including any bank accounts, because the New York courts can take notice of any judgments in that State. It is easier to levy in the State where the judgment is

    DRJ (c673a9)

  80. The Trump case in NY seems pretty straightforward to me. I know that commercial real estate is different animal. But I pay property tax in my state. If if was discovered that I had misrepresented either the value of my house to my lender or to the government to keep my taxes low (or both) I would definitely face consequences. It wouldn’t be 400M in consequences, but then I’m not a billionaire.

    Time123 (3087bc)

  81. It is not necessarily true that your tax valuation and your loan valuation are the same. In a Prop 13 state (Florida and NM are that way) the assessment only happens on a property transfer, while the loan value is appraised as the loan is processed. It is not uncommon in California for these to differ by large multiples.

    Even if Trump’s property is limited in value as a club (and permanence of that is disputed), the assessor’s formulation is not necessarily a good valuation. The judge also took the low end of the assessor’s guess.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  82. I admire your determination.

    DRJ (49ab36)

  83. Yeah, well, it’s flagging. My main issue is the way that NY state rigs the process in its favor, including a high bar for appeals of arbitrary judgements. It makes me want to see every last F.U. item that can be brought to bear, even for Donald effing Trump.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  84. My argument is not pro-Trump but anti-statist.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  85. Laws are very status quo because people need rules that are known and dependable

    DRJ (49ab36)

  86. As I recall, Trump appealed a $26 million assessed value as being too high, and he got it knocked.

    Deed restrictions usually run with the land, but I also recall steveg mentioning that there may have been a way to get it lifted. This is why I say that the best way to know value of the property is to put it on the market and let the market decide, speaking as a person who’s valued commercial real estate since Reagan was president.

    Paul Montagu (1e8339)

  87. Using the assessor’s valuation seems a rookie error, and just because the judge hired someone to do this for him does not mean that someone was objective or fair.

    Kevin M (8676e4) — 3/20/2024 @ 11:13 am

    The assessor’s valuation probably takes into account the deed restrictions on MAL.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  88. Even if Trump’s property is limited in value as a club (and permanence of that is disputed), the assessor’s formulation is not necessarily a good valuation. The judge also took the low end of the assessor’s guess.

    Kevin M (8676e4) — 3/20/2024 @ 12:14 pm

    What part of “in perpetuity” is hard to understand?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  89. IF the Palm Beach County deed restrictions (as opposed to the are ever lifted, the property tax bill will be huge. As I pointed out in Weekend Open Thread:

    The problem is that MAL cannot be assessed as a private residence, because Trump signed away his rights in 1995 to maintain the property as a social club in perpetuity, which considerably devalues the property. Also, in 2002 Trump signed an easement with the National Trust for Historic Preservation which restricts the ability to renovate the house and forecloses development of the property into multiple single family homes. By signing the 2002 deed, Trump received a significantly lower property tax rate.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  90. My main issue is the way that NY state rigs the process in its favor, including a high bar for appeals of arbitrary judgements. It makes me want to see every last F.U. item that can be brought to bear, even for Donald effing Trump.

    Kevin M (8676e4) — 3/20/2024 @ 12:29 pm

    Sounds very much like Nikki Haley.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  91. And the judge swung his level and said “Donnie, you’re a cheater. Donnie, you’re a liar.”

    Trump is a very tangled skein. A tortuous labyrinth of duplicity. A bottomless abyss of depravity. I’m sure that the judge took a lot more into consideration than the tax assessor’s valuation of Mar-a-Lago in reaching the judgment.

    This case is only one of the more than 4,000 (I read somewhere that it’s 6,000) that he has been involved in. Put a number, any number, on the cost to his adversaries and to the system. And then tell him to go suck a cow chip.

    nk (bb1548)

  92. level gavel

    nk (bb1548)

  93. Trump Criminal Litigation Watch, NY Edition:

    Former President Donald Trump’s debut criminal trial may be about many allegations: hush-money payments to a pornographic film actress, a coverup to influence the 2016 presidential election, and serial falsification of business records to hide a campaign-threatening secret from voters and tax authorities.

    But a Manhattan judge has dramatically shaped the balance of what the jury — and the public — will hear about it in opinions he published on Monday.

    In a pair of pre-trial rulings, Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Juan Merchan decided dozens of controversies, large and small, including which witnesses may testify, what evidence may come in, and whether certain topics are off-limits from mentioning to the jury. Though the details vary, the judge made one overarching theme abundantly clear: Sex may be relevant to Trump’s debut criminal trial, but this is mostly a case about an alleged attempt to influence an election.
    ………..
    To succeed, prosecutors face the challenge of showing jurors, within the constraints of the rules of evidence, just what Trump allegedly sought to hide from voters.

    The judge denied every effort by Trump’s legal team to keep mention of federal and state election law from the jury, but the former president succeeded in keeping out a key piece of evidence from the prosecutor’s presentation of the case: the “Access Hollywood” tape, in which Trump boasted about grabbing women “by the pu–y.” Prosecutors can have a witness describe the exchange, but cannot play audio or visual of it.
    ……….
    Despite agreeing with prosecutors’ theory about relevance, Merchan did not believe the tape itself was necessary. …….
    ……….
    One important caveat: the judge said he would consider revisiting the decision should Trump’s defense “open the door.” ……..
    ……….
    The judge reserved decision on a more delicate topic, whether to allow prosecutors to tell jurors about the multiple women who accused Trump of sexual assault.
    ……….
    “The People will be required to make a further offer of proof,” the judge wrote.
    ……….
    ………. Justice Merchan must grapple with a different set of precedents — most importantly here, the 1901 case of Roland Burnham Molineux, a chemist and scion of a renowned Civil War general who stood accused of poisoning a woman to death. ……..
    ………..
    By contrast, Merchan has shown no hesitation about prosecutors telling jurors about federal and state election law.
    ………..
    After Trump’s attorneys subsequently tried to keep the topic away from the jury, Merchan made clear that his finding was final.

    “These issues have already been decided by this Court and this argument will not be entertained again,” he wrote on Monday.
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  94. What part of “in perpetuity” is hard to understand?

    The part where laws say “perpetuity” is only for a fixed period of time.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  95. The assessor’s valuation probably takes into account the deed restrictions on MAL.

    But in any event are only for the calendar year, ceteris paribus.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  96. It turns out that Donnie may have billions from Truth Social, as his True Believers are bidding up the stock.

    Donald Trump’s supporters are pushing to hand him a nearly $3.5 billion windfall by driving up the value of his also-ran social-media platform, which is on the cusp of getting approval to list on the stock market.

    Trump’s winning lottery ticket would come from Truth Social, the social-media platform he launched in 2021. After a twisted path that included tens of millions of dollars in losses and insider-trading convictions, the shell company taking Truth Social public became the market’s latest meme stock. Trump’s supporters banded together to push up the stock, valuing Truth Social to a staggering $6 billion.

    PT Barnum looks on with approval.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  97. Sad!

    New York state’s $454 million judgment against Donald Trump in a civil fraud lawsuit was formally registered in Westchester County just outside Manhattan, a sign that his properties in the area may be at risk of being seized if the former president fails to post an appeal bond.

    New York Attorney General Letitia James registered the judgment on March 6, according to the Westchester County Clerk’s online database. The filing didn’t give a reason for the registration or identify any Trump assets, but it will allow James to more easily secure liens, should she decide to do so, on two of the real estate mogul’s most valuable properties: Trump National Golf Club Westchester and the mostly undeveloped 212-acre Seven Springs estate.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  98. Trump debt will determine what assets the State will try to levy on first.

    DRJ (9fbd45)

  99. Chubb handled the E Jean Carroll bond but ultimately declkned this one.

    DRJ (9fbd45)

  100. I wonder what property secures the E Jean Carroll bond. I also wonder what ground he has for appeal.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  101. What happens if a property is auctioned off for substantially more than the judge’s appraisal? Wouldn’t that play into Trump’s appeal?

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  102. Also, even if the state intends to seize a property and auction it off, doesn’t due diligence require them to allow potential bidders time to evaluate the property? Assuming, of course, that getting the highest price is important and it’s not just to harm Trump.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  103. Then there’s the possibility that bidders, who would be unable to give Trump money (e.g. Saudi princes) because it might be a campaign contribution, could buy the properties for Trump’s appraisal number, RFing the judgement pretty terribly, and holding it for him to repurchase if he wanted.

    There are all kinds of critters under this log.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  104. 102. Kevin M (8676e4) — 3/21/2024 @ 10:23 am

    Also, even if the state intends to seize a property and auction it off, doesn’t due diligence require them to allow potential bidders time to evaluate the property? Assuming, of course, that getting the highest price is important and it’s not just to harm Trump.

    They often do not try to get the highest price in more run of the mill (tax lien or water bill) cases.

    Of course, this will be watched more.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  105. Fox News Asks Alina Habba If Donald Trump’s Bond Will Come From Russia

    ………
    (Fox News’ Martha MacCallum) also asked Habba if there was “any effort” on Trump’s defense team to try to secure the total bond amount “through another country,” such as Saudi Arabia or Russia.

    “There’s rules and regulations that are public,” Habba responded. “I can’t speak about strategy. That requires certain things, and we have to follow those rules.”
    …………
    National security lawyer Mary McCord told MSNBC over the weekend that there are “certainly plenty of people who might want to bail him out,” suggesting that some entities could be “foreign, some of those might be Russian oligarchs,” or people and companies within the U.S.

    “Any time you are talking about someone who is running for president or holding any elected office and potentially could have some indebtedness or feeling of owing somebody else something, that’s very dangerous,” McCord added.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  106. It is reported (what?) that Truth Social has become a meme stock at around $42 per share for a total market cap of $6 billion, and that Trump owns 60% of it.

    Where did the $6 billion go and is it even legal?

    nk (f74636)

  107. Parting a fool and his money has always been legal.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  108. Yeah, and no $6 billion has passed hands either I just realized. Only whatever somebody paid for it, no matter the current listing price.

    nk (c995d2)

  109. Trump’s Options:

    ……….
    The problem for Trump is that in this kind of situation, bond companies typically want somewhere between 1.2 and 1.5 times the amount of the judgment to account for costs and interest accrued during the appeals process—which means that he needs a bond worth about half a billion dollars.
    ……….
    Try, Try, and Try Again to Secure a Bond
    ………..
    Because the appeal outcome is far from guaranteed, bond companies have strict rules for providing collateral. Adam Pollock, a former assistant attorney general of New York and a partner at the law firm Pollock Cohen, explained in an interview with Slate that bond companies typically require liquid assets, like cash or market securities, to be handed over—and will charge a 1 or 2 percent annual premium on top of that. Real estate isn’t allowed as collateral, since it’s an asset that can’t be liquidated quickly.

    Trump’s attorneys claim that they’ve tried 30 bond companies but none have agreed to work with the former president. However, that argument doesn’t satisfy Pollock because it doesn’t include any details about their negotiations. “All 30 of them would absolutely write [Trump] a bond if he offered $500 million of cash collateral, and zero of the 30 will offer a bond if he offers anything much less than that,” he said.
    ……….
    A Nontraditional Option
    ……….
    But if it’s really not possible to secure a bond, there is room to get creative, he said—after all, this is a history-making case. “You could have an intermediary in place. Like, maybe a private equity fund would give $500 million in cash collateral to an insurance bond writer if Trump would give that private equity fund pretty significant real estate collateral,” Pollock said.

    …………It would also cost Trump a lot more because bonding agencies typically charge an annual fee of 1 or 2 percent the value of the bond, while a private equity fund would likely charge much more for taking on this level of risk.

    Offer a Settlement

    “I would think that if [Trump] gave a reasonable settlement offer, let’s say $300 million, I think that the office of the attorney general would have to seriously consider it,” Pollock said. If Trump has the volume of cash he says he does, then he could simply accept Engoron’s decision and try to negotiate directly with James to limit the financial damage.

    Though this would be antithetical to the persona Trump has spent his entire adult life building—wealth! prestige! power!—it might be better than losing his properties. ………

    Trump’s Super PACs Can’t Foot the Bill

    The former president may have leaned heavily on his political fundraising to pay for his legal bills in the four criminal indictments he faces, but campaign finance laws prevent him from doing the same in civil cases.
    ……….

    Asking to Lower the Bond Probably Won’t Work
    ……….
    ……….Pollock doesn’t believe that Trump should hold his breath for a lower bond, since that would set an extraordinary precedent. If the courts were to make an exception for Trump, “every defendant forever will come along and say, ‘Look, this judgment against me is an extraordinary amount for me,’ ” said Pollock. He argues that a rule change would “completely undermine the legislative decision made in Albany to require the full amount.”
    ……….
    Filing for Bankruptcy

    …………Pollock explained that filing for bankruptcy essentially hands control of all assets to a bankruptcy court and trustee who sort out what debts are due and prioritize whom should get paid. (Taxes, for instance, always take first priority.)

    A bankruptcy filing would help delay Trump’s debts, since it could take years to settle, but interest would still be able to accrue on outstanding balances. Pollock thinks that it’s unlikely Trump will take this route. “Bankruptcy has a reputational harm that he probably doesn’t want during his campaign for president.”

    Worst-Case Scenario: The Attorney General Starts Seizing Assets
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  110. Sometimes the bond amount is too much for a litigant to pay but this is not the biggest bond on record. The judgment against Texaco in Pennzoil vs Texaco was over $10 Billion. The bond would have been $13 Billion, which Texaco could not pay.

    Texaco appealed to federal court seeking telief from the bond, claiming the bond would bankrupt it. The federal district Court and appeals court said the bond should be reduced to $1 Billion but the Supreme Court said the State court (Texas) had jurisdiction and the federal courts should stay out of it.

    Texaco had to file bankruptcy. I think that case would control Trump’s case as to the bond. It doesn’t mean he would have to file bankruptcy but one of his businesses might, because a bankruptcy can stay collection efforts. At this point, the prosecutor is simply collecting a judgment.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  111. Supreme Court opinion here.

    Washington Post article here.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  112. I don’t know about New York law. I guess he could ask a New York Court to give him relief from the bond, but the requirement to post bonds on appeal is longstanding and routine in most (maybe all) States. Inability to pay is not an exception in civil cases, just criminal cases.

    DRJ (f362ee)

  113. From your Supreme Court opinion link, DRJ:

    a) Younger abstention helps to avoid unwarranted determination of federal constitutional questions. Here, because appellee chose not to present its constitutional claims to the Texas courts, it is impossible to determine whether the governing Texas statutes and procedural rules actually involved those claims. Moreover, the Texas Constitution contains an “open courts” provision that appears to address appellee’s claims more specifically than does the Federal Constitution. Thus, it is entirely possible that the Texas courts would have resolved this case on state statutory or constitutional grounds, without reaching appellee’s federal constitutional questions.

    I have not looked for the text from Trump’s appeal. Am I correct to assume that this Texaco opinion may not fully apply if he has specific US Constitutional claims in his appeal?

    BuDuh (4214e4)

  114. Sorry to threadjack, but does anyone here know anything about something called “Project 2025”?

    Some big fans of the BOAR are promoting it at X/Twitter. It would supposedly…

    – Ban all abortion (including pills)
    – Deport every illegal
    – Rescind all LGBT rights, including marriage
    – Give the executive UNCHECKED power, including the right for him/her to create their own Politburo/Deep State.

    Sounds like the Trumpies’ ultimate crackpot wet dream.

    qdpsteve again (f4e7a8)

  115. I think he would have had to raise that in the trial court, Buduh, and he might have.

    DRJ (c673a9)

  116. Has Trump appealed? I don’t think he has yet. But in general litigants cannot raise issues on appeal unless they were objected to and preserved in the trial court.

    I think his attorneys objected to the bond. They may have included objections based on the US Constition.

    DRJ (1a9553)

  117. Constitution.

    DRJ (7f07d8)

  118. Ok. Thanks, DRJ.

    🙂

    BuDuh (0f5584)

  119. There were reports about settlement negotiations in Pennzoil vs Texaco. It made sense to settle as opposed to filing bankruotcy, because the parties controled a settlement but bankruptcy introduced countless other variables, creditors, rules, and a court. But they couldn’t find a way to settle. That feels like what might happen with Trump zbd the State prosecutor.

    DRJ (9fbd45)

  120. I think his attorneys objected to the bond.

    I think his attorney’s objected to what the judge had for breakfast.

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  121. Trump has two main NY appeals: the determination of the penalty amount and the application of the fraud law to activity that did not defraud any identified entity. The first is more likely to succeed to some degree, and that directly translates to the size of the surety he has to provide.

    But it’s a good question, what appeals has he made?

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  122. It’s black letter law in New York that defendants in civil suits must post the full judgment amount to stay execution of the judgment.

    Trump again is asking for an exception to what all other defendants must do, which is why I don’t think the appeals court will grant any relief.

    Trump has appealed Judge Engoron’s decision. Engoron has also ordered Trump’s lawyers to inform the financial monitor overseeing the Trump Organization of their efforts to obtain the bond.

    Rip Murdock (b7c7da)

  123. Trump again is asking for an exception to what all other defendants must do

    Never never ever? Are you certain of that?

    Kevin M (8676e4)

  124. Trump again is asking for an exception to what all other defendants must do

    Never never ever? Are you certain of that?

    Kevin M (8676e4) — 3/21/2024 @ 8:58 pm

    I “never ever” said that-it was an observation that Trump has consistently asked for exceptions to general rules-like total immunity for his actions on January 6th and his declarations that he can designate classified information as personal documents.

    I’m sure other defendants have complained about their bonds, but apparently to no avail (as such cases haven’t been reported.)

    Rip Murdock (4f4246)

  125. In Pennzoil, they did polling before the verdict,

    Sammy Finkelman (c2c77e)

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