Patterico's Pontifications

11/21/2022

DeSantis Beats Disney in a Unanimous Decision

Filed under: General — JVW @ 6:16 am



[guest post by JVW]

Here’s what I wrote back in March:

Disney, which was slow to extricate itself from business operations in Russia even after the invasion of Ukraine and still to this very day happily does business in China, even to the degree of self-censoring so as not to offend the Chinese Communist Party, is very — very, I tells ya! — concerned about Florida’s new Parental Rights in Education bill, uncritically adopting the left-wing narrative that it is reflexively anti-gay though in reality it merely places strict limits on classroom discussions of sexual orientation or gender identity for children younger than fourth grade. Disney CEO Bob Chapek called Sunshine State Governor Ron DeSantis on Wednesday to express his concern and later claimed that the governor had agreed to a follow-up conversation, though DeSantis has assured supporters that he won’t alter his beliefs based upon “the musings of woke corporations.”

I hope that Gov. DeSantis and Mr. Chapek do meet. As Mr. Chapek airs his concerns and those of his apparently hyper-woke workforce, perhaps the governor might remind the CEO of Disney’s entanglements with repressive dictatorships, and — speaking of repressive dictatorships — ask if company shareholders would prefer Disney to move more of its operations to California, a state which capriciously shut-down Disney’s theme parks for over a year during the height of the pandemic while Disney’s Florida theme park were mostly back up and running nine months earlier. It’s understandable that Disney would be sympathetic to the LBGTQ agenda — other than girls aged 3-12 there’s probably no more loyal market demographic for their product than gay men — but Mr. Chapek needs to understand that there are going to be definite limits to the efficacy of his company’s obnoxious virtue signaling.

I guess that the meeting wasn’t even necessary. Less than two weeks after Gov. DeSantis’s smashing reelection victory, Disney appears to have thrown in the towel:

After less that two years in retirement, Bob Iger has returned as the CEO of the Walt Disney Company

The board just sent out a notice that Bob I. is back and recently re-upped Bob Chapek is out.

[. . .]

The Walt Disney Company (NYSE: DIS) announced today that Robert A. Iger is returning to lead Disney as Chief Executive Officer, effective immediately. Mr. Iger, who spent more than four decades at the Company, including 15 years as its CEO, has agreed to serve as Disney’s CEO for two years, with a mandate from the Board to set the strategic direction for renewed growth and to work closely with the Board in developing a successor to lead the Company at the completion of his term. Mr. Iger succeeds Bob Chapek, who has stepped down from his position.

“We thank Bob Chapek for his service to Disney over his long career, including navigating the company through the unprecedented challenges of the pandemic,” said Susan Arnold, Chairman of the Board. “The Board has concluded that as Disney embarks on an increasingly complex period of industry transformation, Bob Iger is uniquely situated to lead the Company through this pivotal period.”

The GOP grossly underwhelmed in the midterm elections, but woke politics also didn’t do particularly well at the ballot box. Maybe mega corporations like Disney should pause to meditate on this, and perhaps determine that remaining neutral in the culture wars is a whole lot safer than embracing the Hollywood/Cambridge/Washington DC zeitgeist in order to score cheap victories with the kids.

– JVW

211 Responses to “DeSantis Beats Disney in a Unanimous Decision”

  1. To those who had a problem with DeSantis taking on Disney in this manner, do you still feel the same way?

    Frankly, I think DeSantis got so much support for, not only that the bill that Disney was objecting to was rationally reasonable, but also because opponents were comically lying about the bill and tried to bully DeSantis.

    whembly (d116f3)

  2. I can agree that Disney became too woke and disagree with DeSantis and his punitive approach of targeting their RID status.

    Paul Montagu (b351b8)

  3. I agree with Paul…do we really think that the tax process should be used to punish political positions? Could it ever go too far?

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  4. Checks: Yup, Disney+ subscription still not renewed.
    Checks again: Yup, DeSantis still Al Capone looking to oust Johnny Torrio.

    nk (34a2b3)

  5. I’m surprised that a cash cow like Reedy Creek survived Florida’s grifters and grafters for as long as it did in the first place.

    nk (34a2b3)

  6. Companies do not want to upset politicians. Which means that government striking back against companies can drive these kind of results. This is really a reason why woke is going to be dialed back. (The other is that woke creates entertainment only a transgender puritan could love)

    Appalled (bb119d)

  7. I can agree that Disney became too woke and disagree with DeSantis and his punitive approach of targeting their RID status.

    Yeah, Charlie Cooke made the same point. I tend to agree, but I can’t say that a large part of me doesn’t enjoy seeing Disney reap what they have sown.

    JVW (15c733)

  8. Yeah, Charlie Cooke made the same point. I tend to agree, but I can’t say that a large part of me doesn’t enjoy seeing Disney reap what they have sown.

    JVW (15c733) — 11/21/2022 @ 8:43 am

    Cooke misses the larger issue that this acts as a warning shot against global megacorps who want to use their clout and money to influence the culture war in favor of woke politics.

    The left has no problem with using the functions of the state to reward their friends and punish their enemies, and the GOP shouldn’t be afraid to do the same. If Disney wants to insert themselves into a culture war fight on behalf of the left in a red state, then Republicans should absolutely use all the tools at their disposal to bring a media/entertainment monopoly like The Rat to heel. As the left likes to crow when the shoe is on the other foot, it’s freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  9. Companies do not want to upset politicians.

    Companies don’t want to upset leftist politicians. They’ve been fine with thumbing their nose at right-wing politicians because the latter have tended to be Chamber of Commerce catamites who think man lives by bread alone, and will knuckle under at the slightest threat to pull back business in their jurisdiction.

    The main reason DeSantis didn’t get punished for going after Disney is because Disney is a media monopoly that creates insufferably woke trash these days, especially after their creative directors got caught admitting to pushing such propaganda in their products, and is hardly a sympathetic entity as a result. If they had packed up and moved to Colorado, for example, their departure hardly would have been lamented.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  10. I doubt that the culture wars paid a large part in the decision.

    Regardless, using the power of the state to punish people for their speech is wrong and violation of peoples rights.

    I think FWO’s POV is common. I also think it’s Un-American, but not everyone agrees with me that the Christian Baker shouldn’t be forced to make art celebrating a message he finds objectionable.

    I would say that if I were strongly motivated by a culture war my side had been losing for years I don’t think I’d want to normalize giving my enemies new powers (the power to use the state to punish speech) they didn’t previously have. But that’s just me.

    Time123 (087417)

  11. Bob Iger, the indispensable man.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  12. FWO —

    I sit where JVW does on this — not really great with politicians putting their thumbs on the scales on this, but. Disney tried a little casual “lets beat up on the unenlightened goobers for grins” and — miscalculated. This is why companies do not want to upset politicians. It can be costly.

    To be clear, “punsihment” is removing a tax break nobody else gets in Florida. I’m finding it hard to gin up any libertarian tinged outrage.

    Appalled (019ddd)

  13. @12, the fact that Disney got special treatment is bad. Pulling it because you don’t like their speech is also bad and not excused by the fact it was a bad tax break.

    Time123 (07b41a)

  14. I would say that if I were strongly motivated by a culture war my side had been losing for years I don’t think I’d want to normalize giving my enemies new powers (the power to use the state to punish speech) they didn’t previously have. But that’s just me.

    Time123 (087417) — 11/21/2022 @ 9:30 am

    They already have it and are already using it, often in collaboration with large corporate entities. This is just the house rules now, and if such actions disincentivize these companies from sticking their nose in culture war politics, then you’re going to see a lot more of it coming down the pike.

    If these companies don’t like it, they’re free to set up shop in blue states that will be more amenable to wokel yokel politics. Governor Dippity Doo Head is already encouraging them to do so, as are others like Jared Polis.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  15. FWO, Do you have an example or two of leftists elected officials punishing companies for speech they disagree with? First one that comes to mind for me is Warre’s stataement earlier this year, and that was more a statement of desire to do so.

    If a large corporate entity is willingly collaborating that’s not government correction. People are free to go along with the government of their own free will.

    Time123 (303e0c)

  16. #13

    It’s better that corporate America not try to be our cultural custodians. I don’t mind a politician reminding them why it’s better to concentrate on profit and loss.

    Appalled (019ddd)

  17. @16, Ford recognized SSM long before the SC. They did it for reasons of their own. Should the Bush administration have had NHTSA target them for additional investigations as a result?

    Are you OK with blue states harassing Chick-Fil-A with unnecessary health inspections because of the stances of their owners?

    Those would be analogous actions by the left.

    Time123 (087417)

  18. Are you OK with blue states harassing Chick-Fil-A with unnecessary health inspections because of the stances of their owners?

    Those would be analogous actions by the left.

    Time123 (087417) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:01 am

    Again, that’s already been happening. Blue-city politicians have worked to freeze out Chik-Fil-A from setting up franchises, and in San Antonio, city councilmembers prevented them from doing so at the San Antonio airport.

    There’s no reason the GOP shouldn’t make use of the same weapon that Democrats wield with impunity.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  19. The politicians from San Antonio were engaged in viewpoint discrimination and rightly backed down.

    You’re saying that you’re OK with this and want more of it.

    I’m saying it’s Un-American and I want less of it.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2020/09/14/san-antonio-airport-chickfila-not-opening/5798396002/

    https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/516359-chick-fil-a-drops-fight-for-san-antonio-airport-location/

    Time123 (303e0c)

  20. Who are the bulk of Disney World’s patrons?

    1. Gays
    2. Out-of-State Liberals
    3. Floridians

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  21. Ford recognized SSM long before the SC. They did it for reasons of their own. Should the Bush administration have had NHTSA target them for additional investigations as a result?

    Ford wasn’t trying to use their clout to influence the law; that was an internal decision that had no effect on the enforcement of state or federal laws on SSM. That’s not the approach that Disney took; they and their employees deliberately employed their mass media bullhorn to try and influence policy. DeSantis smacked them down in response by going after their special tax break, and they not only backed off, DeSantis suffered no long-term effects.

    Again, this why small government conservatism/Goldwaterism is effectively dead in the GOP; because those types are absolutely helpless in the face of corporate pressure in the promotion of left-wing politics, and GOP voters are sick of seeing those types capitulate to them time after time.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  22. Are you OK with blue states harassing Chick-Fil-A with unnecessary health inspections because of the stances of their owners?

    I’ve seen new Chick-Fil-A’s blocked in Los Angeles by gay politicians. Also, there are no Walmarts in the city proper — they passed a tailored no-walmarts law at the instigation of unions.

    Don’t pretend it doesn’t happen.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  23. And yes, I would want less, but this is like saying “I want less gun violence, so I will not have a gun.”

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  24. The politicians from San Antonio were engaged in viewpoint discrimination and rightly backed down.

    You’re saying that you’re OK with this and want more of it.

    Yeah, they backed down, but only after a year of lawfare finally disincentivized Chik-fil-a from setting up a store there even after the courts said it was okay to do so. So the city council ultimately got their way in the end, regardless.

    So yeah, I’m fine with this if it results in getting my side what I want at the back end.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  25. I think FWO’s POV is common. I also think it’s Un-American, but not everyone agrees with me that the Christian Baker shouldn’t be forced to make art celebrating a message he finds objectionable.

    As long as it is only the Christian baker who is harassed , the harassment will continue. When you instead coerce the gay baker to make cakes for the Westboro Baptist Church, is when the idea will dawn that it’s not really discrimination as much as it is a refusal to participate.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  26. Then you’re part of what’s making this country worse through the erosion of our rights.

    Time123 (087417)

  27. Then you’re part of what’s making this country worse through the erosion of our rights.

    Time123 (087417) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:23 am

    Those rights are already eroded, it’s just that one side’s been allowed to exploit it for their benefit up until now.

    The Masterpiece Bakery guy is STILL getting harassed by Colorado’s gay mafia even after the Supreme Court win, because people like “Autumn” Scardina and the Colorado Civil Rights Commission see it as their civic duty to serially litigate him until he capitulates. Their motive is power and control, not equality, and it absolutely burns them that someone out there who openly doesn’t agree with them can make a living without being harassed into oblivion.

    And I’m hardly going to shed a tear for a mass media conglomerate like Disney getting pushback and being compelled to back off. These people have more money and clout than any cake baker will ever be able to bring to bear, and it’s good that they got a taste of their own medicine.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  28. And rather then speak up and defend those rights you cheer their erosions in hopes it will help you win the culture war, or at lease make people you don’t like unhappy.

    From a principled point of view there’s no difference between you and the clowns trying to make the bigoted baker bake the cake.

    Time123 (07b41a)

  29. And rather then speak up and defend those rights you cheer their erosions in hopes it will help you win the culture war, or at lease make people you don’t like unhappy.

    From a principled point of view there’s no difference between you and the clowns trying to make the bigoted baker bake the cake.

    Time123 (07b41a) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:41 am

    No, that’s recognizing the house rules, and the reality that the other side has no interest in respecting those rights unless it happens to benefit them directly.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  30. Then you’re part of what’s making this country worse through the erosion of our rights.

    You fix bullying by bullying back, not by whining about the bullies.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  31. @28: Consider the power of doing both.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  32. From a principled point of view there’s no difference between you and the clowns trying to make the bigoted baker bake the cake.

    You expose your bias here.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  33. @29, A lack of respect for our rights is common ground between you and extreme leftists. You’re united in your disdain for our constitution and shared historical values.

    Time123 (087417)

  34. @32,

    Because I called the guy who won’t decorate a cake for gay wedding a bigot?
    Because I called the people harrying him clowns?
    Or both?

    I’l be really clear. I think he is a bigot. Just as I think people who opposed interracial marriage for religious reasons (and there used to be a lot of people like that) are bigots. He has every right to be a bigot. It’s protected by the first amendment.

    I think the people harassing him are clowns. The SC has been clear on this being speech and they seem to be harassing the guy by trying to find exactly the line between speech and fungible baked good and they’re doing it to someone with limited resources. They suck.

    Time123 (087417)

  35. But Bob Igor was even more against the bill, according to this story:

    https://www.newser.com/story/328242/clue-to-disney-surprise-can-be-found-in-2020-nyt-article.html

    Chapek’s performance: He replaced Iger in 2020 and is credited with guiding Disney through the pandemic. But beyond that, Frank Pallotta of CNN Business describes a “bumpy tenure.” One controversy he mentions (as do others) is Chapek’s handling of the controversial law restricting LGBTQ topics in the classroom in Florida, where Disney employs about 80,000 people. Chapek took heat for not speaking out against the measure, before apologizing for that “silence.” Iger, meanwhile, took a public stance against the bill, calling it a matter of “what is right and what is wrong.” Another high-profile moment: Disney’s public dispute with Scarlett Johansson over payment.

    CNN story:

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/20/media/disney-bob-iger-ceo/index.html

    Chapek spent weeks doing damage control, telling employees that Disney was “increasing our support for advocacy groups to combat similar legislation in other states” and that the company is “hard at work creating a new framework for our political giving that will ensure our advocacy better reflects our values.”

    His public stance was in stark contrast to Iger, who took a public stance against the Florida bill.

    “A lot of these issues are not necessarily political,” Iger told CNN host Chris Wallace in March. “It’s about right and wrong. So, I happen to feel and I tweeted an opinion about the ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill in Florida. To me, it wasn’t about politics. It is about what is right and what is wrong, and that just seemed wrong. It seemed potentially harmful to kids.”

    “harmful” because of all the supposedly gay kids would feel bad.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  36. Time123:

    In politics, you reward your friends and punish your enemeies. Disney announced they were Florida’s enemy in a big pubic way. They were punished by being denied a tax break. Breaking out the worlds smallest violin now.

    It’s not supposed to be personal — just business. But Disney made it personal and tht wasn’t so good for business.

    And the real problem with the Chick-fil-A business is they caved on what the actvists and politicians wanted years ago, but the activists act like they never got the memo. What they object to is that Chick-fil-a is both successful and run by evangelical christians.

    Appalled (2acbbc)

  37. Sammy, thank you for confirming what I’d thought. This has nothing to do with Disney becoming less woke.

    Time123 (07b41a)

  38. @29, A lack of respect for our rights is common ground between you and extreme leftists. You’re united in your disdain for our constitution and shared historical values.

    Time123 (087417) — 11/21/2022 @ 11:12 am

    But the left has already demonstrated that they don’t respect or share those values. In fact, their historic determinism is leading them to do their level best to eliminate them and put in some anarcho-tyrannic dystopia with themselves in charge.

    Calling them out on their hypocrisy has no effect because that double standard is the whole point of their political ideology. Calling them out on their disdain for those things you stated has no effect because they just reframe such things as “white supremacy” and something to be “disrupted and dismantled.” The only thing they understand is political power and its applications, which means an environment has to be made uncomfortable enough for them that they either go away, or their entryism gets strangled in the crib.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  39. And the real problem with the Chick-fil-A business is they caved on what the actvists and politicians wanted years ago, but the activists act like they never got the memo.

    That’s because the activists are marxists, and for marxists, the revolution is perpetual. That’s why “true marxism” is always somewhere over the rainbow, and “we’ve come so far, but still have so far to go.” These people are utopian nutbags, and unfortunately they have the sympathies of incredibly powerful people at both the corporate and government level worldwide.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  40. Who are the bulk of Disney World’s patrons?

    1. Gays
    2. Out-of-State Liberals
    3. Floridians

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:10 am

    Disney was worried about its employees, and some of them are very set in their views. There was also the prospect of an organized out-of-state boycott of anything in Florida. I think one was joined by the state of California

    https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2021/06/28/california-bans-state-funded-travel-to-florida-4-other-red-states-1387264

    Of course, there was a boycott, aimed at Disney, from the other side:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hnv_GZ7qyM

    27,361 views Apr 15, 2022

    The latest Disney news update focuses on a Boycott Disney protest coming to Disneyland Resort, going after the ‘woke Disney’ narrative of the Walt Disney Company for opposing the Florida Parental Rights in Education Law. Former Florida Governor Rick Scott has also called for a Disney boycott of not just Disney Parks but also Disney Plus. A majority of Americans are less likely to do business with the Disney Company now, according to a new poll, and are interested in a family friendly alternative. Plus, a former Disney Channel star speaks up about the way in which Disney child actors were treated by the organization.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  41. Factory Working Orphan (490897) — 11/21/2022 @ 11:47 am

    and for marxists, the revolution is perpetual.

    It’s not about the issue, it’s about winning and defeating enemies. The enemies are perpetual, until they’re not.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  42. It’s about corruption

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  43. The only thing they understand is political power and its applications, which means an environment has to be made uncomfortable enough for them that they either go away, or their entryism gets strangled in the crib.

    I think it’s much more likely that they eagerly welcome the increased ability to use the power of the state to punish people for speech they dislike and accelerate the cultural changes you oppose.

    Time123 (087417)

  44. Plus, a former Disney Channel star speaks up about the way in which Disney child actors were treated by the organization.

    Hollywood in general has been a haven of child abusers for decades, but both Disney and Nickelodeon turbocharged it starting in the late 90s, especially after that creepo Dan Schneider started making shows for the latter.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  45. Disney was worried about its employees

    When large companies were recognizing same sex partnerships they were very clear and vocal that they felt this was necessary to attract and retain the best people.

    I can’t imagine a company whose bread and butter is animated musical stories about princesses is less concerned about how this will impact them then Ford Motors.

    Time123 (087417)

  46. I think it’s much more likely that they eagerly welcome the increased ability to use the power of the state to punish people for speech they dislike and accelerate the cultural changes you oppose.

    Time123 (087417) — 11/21/2022 @ 11:55 am

    That’s a distinction without a difference.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  47. It’s not about the issue, it’s about winning and defeating enemies. The enemies are perpetual, until they’re not.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 11/21/2022 @ 11:51 am

    Well, that’s the thing–there are always enemies standing in the way of the glorious socialist revolution, especially the “wreckers” and “sabateurs” and “counterrevolutionaries.” It’s why they turn their fire inward as easily as they do outwardly. They’re alchemists who think they can purge society of anything undesireable until only the pure leftist society remains at the end of history. No wonder Harry Potter novels were so popular with these types, at least until JK Rowling committed heresy against their cult–they unironically believe that saying the right magic words can change reality.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  48. “Culture wars.”
    “Gay Panic.”
    “Red Scare.”
    “British Invasion.”
    “Bush Doctrine.”
    They’ll never beat “rich Corinthian leather”.

    nk (34a2b3)

  49. it merely places strict limits on classroom discussions of sexual orientation or gender identity for children younger than fourth grade.

    But according to LGTBQ theory, children that young already know that they are gay, and need to reassured that it is all right.

    https://www.mykidisgay.com/blog/is-an-8-year-old-too-young-to-know-hes-gay

    As a society we tend to assume that all kids are straight, but that is just not true. In addition to teaching your son about sexuality and the variety that exists in romantic attractions, I applaud you for giving him the language to express his sensibility of love and affection. His simple explanation of wanting to marry a boy when he grows up reflects an understanding of what the possibilities are for love, and how natural it is to be gay.

    Now there’s really no basis for any of this.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  50. According to LGTBQ theory, homosexuality is determined before puberty, but it is also not inherited.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  51. Disney has been paying Florida taxes since it located there in the 1960’s. My understanding too is that the deal that allowed them autonomy to develop their 25,000 acres as they saw fit also required them to provide their own public services. People claim that Florida reneging on the deal (that attracted Disney in the first place) puts those districts on the hook for covering the bond and public services. I thought this post was related to some development in how the legal mechanics were shaking out. Maybe it indirectly does, but I’ve heard nothing about the Republicans pulling back the legislation in exchange for a change in management. Celebration seems at best premature. Who is liable for what will dictate the winner and loser.

    Still, eye-gouging your state’s biggest employer is a tad bit short sighted. And just like liberal states love millionaire taxes until the millionaires start to leave, prodding the golden goose is fine until the goose takes flight. Should both sides have been more considerate? I think so. Is the Florida “don’t say gay” law smart legislation…or reactionary….and provocative? Is it solving a problem or manufacturing one? No doubt it worked for DeSantis but it will likely hurt him in purple states.

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  52. Sammy, thank you for confirming what I’d thought. This has nothing to do with Disney becoming less woke.

    But you understand that there is a huge difference between the actions of Bob Iger, retired Disney executive, and Bob Iger, the CEO of the Disney Corporation, right? I mean, sure Iger during his retirement was happy to speak out against the Florida bill, but would Iger as head man at Disney have done the same? Not so sure he would have, and even if he had weighed in he probably would have been smart enough to employ a lighter touch than Bob Chapek did.

    JVW (15c733)

  53. JVW that can all be true. But you characterized it as Disney making this change in order to be less woke and as a victory for the RW culture war.

    From your post

    Less than two weeks after Gov. DeSantis’s smashing reelection victory, Disney appears to have thrown in the towel:

    The information Sammy shared makes it extremely unlikely that Disney’s BOD made this move as part of a strategy to be less woke.

    Time123 (087417)

  54. Young people are more progressive especially minorities. Generation Z half of which are not yet 18 voted twice as much for democrats as did millennials who voted democrat nearly twice as much boomers who are dying off. Major corporations future is with the young not old republicans prunes. Chapek was trying to be woke as he could see the future. @51 I have said desatan will need heavy security to campaign in purple states and may not do him any good in blue states. Look what happened to cancun turd cruz in a red state! Desatan better hope that gay community stays peaceful in confrontations with him. Corporations can do a lot more to floriduh and desatan then just complain. Democrats blew it in floriduh by not running latinx for gov. and senate. They wont make that mistake again in heavily latinx state.

    asset (bc40c3)

  55. Generation Z half of which are not yet 18 voted twice as much for democrats

    They attribute it to the student loan forgiveness but since they were voting for other offices than president and it was sold as a done deal, and it was not mentioned as a selling point, and while it could affect people currently in college, I don’t know that this was called attention to, I doubt it.

    Climate change is more likely – they get taught this in school. Nobody bothers to do the math. The climate emergency is based on the idea that maybe we could be at a tipping point.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  56. aIt’s really based on nobody asking any questions.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  57. The information Sammy shared makes it extremely unlikely that Disney’s BOD made this move as part of a strategy to be less woke.

    I read Sammy’s comments and I find no basis for your assertion there.

    JVW (15c733)

  58. What I mean is that here is the full paragraph from that link:

    Chapek’s performance: He replaced Iger in 2020 and is credited with guiding Disney through the pandemic. But beyond that, Frank Pallotta of CNN Business describes a “bumpy tenure.” One controversy he mentions (as do others) is Chapek’s handling of the controversial law restricting LGBTQ topics in the classroom in Florida, where Disney employs about 80,000 people. Chapek took heat for not speaking out against the measure, before apologizing for that “silence.” Iger, meanwhile, took a public stance against the bill, calling it a matter of “what is right and what is wrong.” Another high-profile moment: Disney’s public dispute with Scarlett Johansson over payment.

    So the assertion here is being made (perhaps obliquely) by a CNN reporter and others who are very hostile to the Florida legislation (not to mention Gov. DeSantis). They don’t quote anybody at Disney claiming that the Disney board approved of Chapek’s handling of the kerfuffle. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they actually lament the controversy, if only because it gave DeSantis and others the opportunity to remind everyone that Disney is quite happy to do business with repressive countries who persecute the LGBT community as well as other racial, ethnic, and religious minorities. Chapek may not have been let go solely because of his dustup with DeSantis, but I certainly doubt that the Disney board welcomed his ham-handed efforts at wokeness.

    JVW (15c733)

  59. Memo to DeSantis the Opportunist:

    “Why would I want to be president? I’m the king of Disneyland…” — Walt Disney

    “Why be a governor or senator when you can be king of Disneyland?” — Walt Disney

    DCSCA (3e2995)

  60. Lord haw haw returns.

    Appalled (2acbbc)

  61. @26

    Then you’re part of what’s making this country worse through the erosion of our rights.

    Time123 (087417) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:23 am

    No Time123.

    Failure to respond in kind would only encourage the left to continue doing so.

    The PROCESS is also the PUNISHMENT. You cannot sue in court every single time, as the wheel of justice is extremely slow (for good reasons).

    We’re not at the point where the left must live under the same rules they set themselves.

    It stops when THEY recognize their own actions AND only then, we can reassess if we should both change the rules that’s more accommodating.

    whembly (d116f3)

  62. *We’re now…

    Ugh, can we not get some edit button around here?

    whembly (d116f3)

  63. @28

    And rather then speak up and defend those rights you cheer their erosions in hopes it will help you win the culture war, or at lease make people you don’t like unhappy.

    From a principled point of view there’s no difference between you and the clowns trying to make the bigoted baker bake the cake.

    Time123 (07b41a) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:41 am

    True. There is no difference at this point.

    If speaking up “and defend those rights” doesn’t work, then it’s time for the ‘ol “eye for an eye” response.

    You can only poke the bear so much.

    whembly (d116f3)

  64. It’s not just Disney-Any corporation that engages in “woke” practices should be investigated and have their corporate tax benefits removed.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  65. I always thought Apple would be the one to buy Netflix, but I can see Disney buying them too.

    whembly (d116f3)

  66. Iger will not only double down on Disney’s convergence, he will also attempt to buy Netflix. ……

    I doubt that will happen. Disney already owns two-thirds of Hulu (13% of the subscription video-on-demand market), and adding Netflix (20%) would certainly attract the attention of federal regulators. Include Disney+ (11%) and ESPN (4%), Disney would have a 48% of the market.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  67. Source for post 67 market share numbers.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  68. The numbers in post 67 are for 2020.

    Netflix ended Q3 (Sept. 2022) with 21% market share, followed closely by Amazon Prime Video with 19%, HBO Max (15%) and Disney+ (15%). Hulu had 10% market share, followed by Apple TV+ (7%) and Paramount+ with 4%.

    So at the end of the third quarter this year, a combination of Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, and ESPN would have a 50% market share. Unlikely to receive federal regulatory approval.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  69. Because I called the guy who won’t decorate a cake for gay wedding a bigot?

    Yes. This makes YOU an anti-Christian bigot. People are entitled to hold their own religious beliefs. It’s in the Constitution somewhere. To be forced to act against those beliefs is tyranny, and those who would force them are tyrants.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  70. Disney was worried about its employees, and some of them are very set in their views.

    Disney’s board was worried about customers and their money.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  71. Disney will not be allowed to buy Netflix for much the same reason that Microsoft cannot buy Sony.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  72. Should a gay baker be forced to bake a celebratory cake for the Westboro Baptist Church?

    If not, explain the difference.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  73. Kevin, I explicitly said he had a right to be a bigot and that was protected by the first amendment. I’m not sure what we’re disagreeing about.

    Time123 (6e15a3)

  74. “Bigot” is a pejorative term, and a slur when applied to someone’s religious beliefs.

    If I said that you were a bigot for not wanting to attend a Trump rally, you would be upset, and rightly so.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  75. Chapek may not have been let go solely because of his dustup with DeSantis, but I certainly doubt that the Disney board welcomed his ham-handed efforts at wokeness.

    JVW (15c733) — 11/21/2022 @ 1:37 pm

    Sure, but was their objection the wokeness or the ham-handedness? Iger’s views suggest it was the letter.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  76. So refusing to provide me basic services because you disapprove of me *isn’t* bigoted?

    When *does* it cross the line into bigotry, Kevin M?

    Would refusing to bake a cake for an interracial couple, because of a religious belief that the races must not intermingle, be bigotry?

    aphrael (730fe0)

  77. No, that’s recognizing the house rules, and the reality that the other side has no interest in respecting those rights unless it happens to benefit them directly.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:54 am

    I’ll repeat what I said to you a couple of weeks ago: Every race to the bottom is characterized by cries from each side that the other side started it.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  78. JVW, All I’m saying is that there’s no evidence Disney’s stance on social issues was the motivation for the change, and that there’s some evidence that the new boss is as woke, if not more so, then the old boss. Given that, your theory that Disney did this as a reaction to the Desantis’s authoritarianism isn’t well supported.

    Time123 (087417)

  79. Kevin, Not all Christian’s oppose gay marriage any more then then all Christian’s support interracial marriage. I’m Christian and I support gay marriage.

    But the Christians that oppose gay/inter-racial marriage are kinda bigoted. YMMV

    Time123 (087417)

  80. “So refusing to provide me basic services”

    Baking a custom cake for a client is now a “basic service?” Talk about a privileged mind-set.

    The term “bigot” is misused because the refusal to participate is reasonable; forcing them is unreasonable and bigoted just as it would be unreasonable and bigoted to force a gay baker to bake a custom cake for any group to which they withhold their support. Neither baker is bigoted because neither is acting unreasonably.

    felipe (484255)

  81. So refusing to provide me basic services because you disapprove of me *isn’t* bigoted?

    Baking a wedding cake is a basic service? No wonder our budgets are bloated.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  82. You fix bullying by bullying back, not by whining about the bullies.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 11/21/2022 @ 11:02 am

    That’s correct, but trivially so, since you’re begging the question. Is either side the bully, and the other the victim, thus justifying the latter’s abandonment of neutral principles and norms to “bully back”? Or does each side make a superficially persuasive case for its victimhood at the hands of its bullying opponents, built on its own meticulously cherry-picked catalog of bias confirmation? Because in case you’re unfamiliar with the excuses for scorched earth tribal warfare emanating from the left tip of the horseshoe, trust me, they’re just as well-documented, earnestly self-certain, and obviously half-blind as FWO’s.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  83. So refusing to provide me basic services because you disapprove of me *isn’t* bigoted?

    There is no indication that the baker disapproves of gays, or even of gays having sex. His stated position is that his religion is quite clear on the subject of marriage however, and he will not participate in the celebration of something he disapproves of.

    Why must he participate? If his belief system is so weird, then there must be 100 other bakers you could turn to.

    If I was a printer, but said that I would not print up flyers claiming that the 2020 election was stolen, would that make me a bigot?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  84. Treating me as an equal in the marketplqce and accepting my money on the same basis as anyone else is indeed a basic service.

    But I guess treating gay people worse than straight people is ok, and not bigotry, because gay people.

    aphrael (a3ef5e)

  85. But the Christians that oppose gay/inter-racial marriage are kinda bigoted. YMMV

    Well, now you are conflating one thing with another that I did not defend. I guess your original point was too weak. But to spell it out for you, with is seems is needed, opponents of interracial marriage are uniformly racial bigots. That is not the case with ssm in the vast majority of cases.

    You can tolerate or accept something that you do not wish to participate in, or celebrate.

    If the baker had said “oh, you’re gay, we don’t serve your kind here”, but that is not the situation, is it?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  86. So, opponents of interracial marriage are uniformly racial bigots and it’s ok to call them that, but opponents of gay marriage are not bigots and it’s not ok to call them that?

    I see.

    It’s ok to discriminate against me and treat me less well than a similarly situated straight person, and it’s wrong for me to object to it.

    That’s the clear lesson here.

    I, and all gay people, are just definitionally *lesser*, and should accept it and shut up and cease expecting to be treated as equals.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  87. Treating me as an equal in the marketplqce and accepting my money on the same basis as anyone else is indeed a basic service.

    OK, again, you are a printer and someone comes and wants printed signs that say “Gays will go to Hell!” I assume you don’t agree with that, would you print it? Or would you find it morally offensive and refuse?

    You don’t get to pick the one, and not the other.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  88. I suppose it’s also fine for a policeman who believes gay people should be stoned to refrain from arresting someone for killing a gay person, or for a doctor who believes gay people with HIV are just being punished by God to refuse to treat the illness.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  89. aphrael, you can play the victim all you want but I’m not buying it.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  90. 89: That’s nonsense and not remotely the same thing. And you know it. Ease up.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  91. I would find it morally offensive and be of the opinion that by offering my services as a printer to the public i’ve offered my services to the public and I don’t get to pick and choose.

    Do you think the two examples in #89 are fine? If not, then how and where do you draw the line?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  92. No, i won’t ease up. You’re telling me that if I call people who single me out for mistreatment bigots, *I* am the problem. Why should I ease up in my outrage at that?

    You think 89 is nonsense and not reomtely the same thing. I think they are *exactly* the same thing. How are you differentiating and where are you drawing the line?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  93. Would it be bigoted for Marriott to refuse to rent a room to me, and would it be wrong for me to call them on it? How about a taxi driver refusing to drive me and my (ex) husband somewhere?

    When is it ok for me to object to being discriminated against, and when do I just need to sit up and take it because it’s *wrong* to call people who discriminate against me bigots?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  94. aphrael, if you think that those two ridiculous examples of people ignoring their sword duty are the same as a flipping pastry chef’s desire not to celebrate a wedding, then I really don know what to say.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  95. Would it be bigoted for Marriott to refuse to rent a room to me, and would it be wrong for me to call them on it? How about a taxi driver refusing to drive me and my (ex) husband somewhere?

    This is closer. I’ll even go so far as changing it to renting a “honeymoon suite”, where they would have no problem with a gay couple per se. And my answer would be that it IS wrong because Marriott, as a public corporation, has no religious belief.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  96. You could start by explaining why you see them as different and where you draw the line between discrimination against gay people which is acceptable and discrimination against gay people which isn’t acceptable.

    The baker is saying “my religious beliefs mean i can’t provide you this commercial service”, but where’s the line around that? What services are people allowed to refuse to provide me based on their religious beliefs, and what services are they not?

    And which services am I allowed to call people bigots for refusing to provide them to me, and which am I not allowed to call them bigots for refusing to provide them to me?

    In *my mind*, there’s a bright clear line — all of this refusing to serve gay people stuff is bigotry, full stop, whether it’s religiously motivated or not, just like it is to refuse to serve people based on the color of their skin.

    Your line is fuzzy and incoherent, to me, and I don’t see the distinctions you think are blindingly obvious.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  97. Ah, so it’s not ok for a public corporation to treat me differently, but it would be ok for a privately owned hotel conglomerate (not one that is publically traded) to do so?

    How about a catholic hospital? Is it wrong for them to refuse to treat me if I have an STD? Would it be wrong for me to call them bigots if they did?

    Note that a big part of my anger here is at the implication that calling a baker a bigot for refusing me service is *worse* than refusing me service to begin with would have been.

    I just have to take the discrimination and smile and nod because it’s worse to hurt the feelings of the people treating me differently than it is to treat me differently.

    They’re more valuable than I am, after all.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  98. JVW,

    I respectfully disagree. Iger started the woke mess that Disney has become. I expect he will double down instead of reversing course. Iceberg spotted. Full steam ahead.

    NJRob (ba8f28)

  99. @Kevin@96 It’s not really true that Marriott as a public corporation has no religion, or maybe it’s only nominally true. I knew someone in the Pentecostal branch of the family and she shared once that if you converted to LDS, you got shares in the company, if you didn’t, you didn’t.

    Nic (896fdf)

  100. All the evidence is that the Colorado cake guy respects the right of gay people to live their lives the way they want more than some respect his right to earn his living the best way he can.

    Would it be bigoted for Marriott to refuse to rent a room to me, and would it be wrong for me to call them on it? How about a taxi driver refusing to drive me and my (ex) husband somewhere?

    Those are genuine “public accommodations”. They define the term. Nobody will freeze to death, catch pneumonia in the rain, be robbed by footpads, or scalped by Indians, if a baker doesn’t make them an “Ooh, so artistic!” custom wedding cake.

    nk (df93fe)

  101. Again, nk, what’s the line you are drawing?

    Can a pharmacist refuse to fill prescriptions for prep?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  102. How do you distinguish betwen baking a cake and cooking dinner or selling groceries?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  103. The baker is saying “my religious beliefs mean i can’t provide you this commercial service”, but where’s the line around that? What services are people allowed to refuse to provide me based on their religious beliefs, and what services are they not?

    Well, we can start with commercial services that are themselves instances of speech. Many of these cases involve compelled speech, analogous to the Hurley case. Nondiscrimination law cannot be applied to require provision of a “commercial service” that involves compelling speech.

    Bear in mind that businesses discriminate all the time based on political opinion. Restaurants refuse to host events for certain political groups. Hotels refuse to host NRA conventions. Should that be legal, or not? And don’t say that political opinions are “chosen” and discrimination on the basis of chosen characteristics is fine. Religion is chosen; marital status is chosen; sex, apparently, is chosen, too now. These are all forbidden grounds of discrimination.

    mikeybates (33bcd2)

  104. How do you distinguish betwen baking a custom cake with a written message for a special event and cooking dinner or selling groceries?
    aphrael (4c4719) — 11/21/2022 @ 7:08 pm

    Context is everything.

    felipe (484255)

  105. Again, nk, what’s the line you are drawing?

    Basic needs not obtainable from any other reasonably convenient source.

    nk (59ffa7)

  106. Heart of Atlanta Motel is the seminal case and it involved what even Herod would have to admit was a public accommodation. Nowadays, if somebody has something somebody else wants, he becomes a public accommodation.

    nk (59ffa7)

  107. I’ve always approached the Masterpiece Cakeshop question in terms of there has to be some line where the public accommodation’s connection to marriage is too remote to justify the discrimination. Few would argue that a wedding minister should be compelled to marry individuals that he is uncomfortable marrying just because his door is open to the public. However, the limo driver should not be allowed to deny service to a gay couple on their honeymoon because of his discomfort with gay marriage. At some point the link is too tenuous and strained.

    Personally, I don’t see how providing a custom cake to a couple weeks after the marriage ceremony…which happened in a different state….to celebrate the event constitutes endorsing or participating in a gay marriage. Someone who is actually at the wedding event has a far greater claim in my opinion. Especially since the denial of service was not predicated on specific words or imagery intended for the cake. The transaction never got that far.

    I empathize that Jack Phillips is deeply invested in his cakes and feels some part of each celebration. But could the jeweler make the same argument? How about the person custom preparing the wedding invites? How about the hair dresser or the tuxedo rental place? Each involves some degree of artistry and sense of participation. Do they all get to discriminate? A good test is whether there is compelled speech or compelled participation. I have more sympathy for a photographer or singer that may be uncomfortable than I do for a baker delivering a reception decoration which is intended to be eaten.

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  108. If Michelangelo were alive and still doing business today, should the new complainant in the Colorado bakery controversy, the transsexual lawyer, be able to compel him to sculpt a post-op version of David? In confectionary? For the top of a wedding cake?

    nk (59ffa7)

  109. IDK, David is rather soft looking and under-endowed, where-as Michelangelo’s women often look like men with apples glued to their chests. Maybe he wouldn’t have a problem with that part. Expecting him to sculpt in sugar, though? That might be a bridge too far.

    Nic (896fdf)

  110. I’ll repeat what I said to you a couple of weeks ago: Every race to the bottom is characterized by cries from each side that the other side started it.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/21/2022 @ 4:58 pm

    It’s always telling how self-styled moderates continually demand de-escalation from the right and never from the left, especially when the right decides to push back against the left’s historic determinism and activism with any kind of vigor. So much easier to take the path of least resistance and just let them have whatever they want, because pushing back is a “race to the bottom” instead of actually standing up for culturally conservative principles (as opposed to just tax cuts and overseas military adventures).

    Personally, I don’t see how providing a custom cake to a couple weeks after the marriage ceremony…which happened in a different state….to celebrate the event constitutes endorsing or participating in a gay marriage

    Why should he be forced by the state to provide a cake for someone at all? It’s not like there are any shortage of bakers in the drug-addled behavioral sink known as the Denver metro area. And Autumn Scardina, who narc’d on Phillips for not making him a transgender cake, is a known serial litigant who’s trying to compel Phillips to knuckle under to Scardina’s mental illness that he’s a woman instead of what he actually is, which is a man.

    Note also that the Supreme Court decision came about SPECIFICALLY because the Colorado Civil Rights Commission, which is infested with far-left LGBTQ activists, were found to have disparaged Phillips’ religious beliefs. It wasn’t even about equal rights; they went after him specifically because they hate actual principled Christians who don’t support gay marriage or transgender activism.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  111. I respectfully disagree. Iger started the woke mess that Disney has become. I expect he will double down instead of reversing course. Iceberg spotted. Full steam ahead.

    NJRob (ba8f28) — 11/21/2022 @ 6:22 pm

    Yep, Iger was brought back specifically to ensure The Rat stays on the ESG train, especially in the wake of Musk’s Blue Check Genocide at Twitter, layoffs galore at Facebook and Amazon along with news orgs like CNN and niche brands like G4, and the cratering ratings and viewership of The Rat’s streaming products. Chapek’s being made a fall guy for Iger’s dumb decisions, but with Zaslak trying to take WB in a less woke direction and Chapek not going full SJW against DeSantis, this screams of a desperation move by Disney’s wokel yokel cult leaders to get their swami back in the seat to resecure their position. Chapek may have been putting on a brave face to the media, but I’ll bet he was talking about cleaning house behind the scenes, and people like Christine McCarthy couldn’t have that because it would be a repudiation of their entire media marketing strategy.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  112. It’s always telling how self-styled moderates continually demand de-escalation from the right and never from the left

    It’s telling how you see only what confirms your biases. Please point to where my comment applied any more to the right than to the left.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  113. It’s telling how you see only what confirms your biases. Please point to where my comment applied any more to the right than to the left.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/21/2022 @ 9:32 pm

    Because the only time the complaints ever come up is when the right bothers to fight back.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  114. How do you distinguish betwen baking a custom cake with a written message for a special event and cooking dinner or selling groceries?

    Easy. One is compelled participation in an activity that not all would want to participate in, the the others are mundane activities. I would put “selling a cake” (or shoes) in the second category, too.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  115. Because the only time the complaints ever come up is when the right bothers to fight back.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897) — 11/21/2022 @ 9:33 pm

    I have zero doubt you honestly believe that.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  116. It’s always telling how self-styled moderates continually demand de-escalation from the right and never from the left

    I am a moderate.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  117. Because the only time the complaints ever come up is when the right bothers to fight back.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897) — 11/21/2022 @ 9:33 pm

    I have zero doubt you honestly believe that.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:10 pm

    Do you doubt that your left wing counterparts honestly believe the mirror opposite?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  118. How do you distinguish betwen baking a custom cake with a written message for a special event and cooking dinner or selling groceries?

    This notion of a custom wedding cake was apparently so pervasive a part of the Masterpiece Cakeshop advocacy that, being too lazy to read the case, I just assumed it was true. But a few days ago Eugene Volokh pointed out that “custom” was never part of the aborted transaction, and it was Phillips’ policy not to sell baked goods of any kind for same sex marriage celebrations. Indeed, a lesbian couple was denied cupcakes for their wedding.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  119. @70 The bible also says render onto caesar what is caesars. Where in the bible does it say you get to bake cakes for certain people and not others. His kingdom is not of this earth. Prosperity christians should remember jesus said give all your money to the poor and follow him as it is easier for a camel to go thru an eye of a needle then a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. attention joel olsteen and jim bakker.

    asset (525e6c)

  120. Wokeness and political correctness came about for a reason just like affirmative action. Calling someone the N word is free speech ;but might lead to violence. You say well I have my gun to enforce my free speech. The establishment says yes but we have to keep the minorities and liberals disarmed so they can’t shoot back at racism. Gun battles in the street is bad for business.

    asset (525e6c)

  121. FWO: “Why should he be forced by the state to provide a cake for someone at all?”

    Because he’s open to the public and we have a conspicuous history of some businesses denying services to others for specious reasons. Your lament can be equally applied to the jeweler providing the wedding rings, the hair stylist providing the custom haircut, or the event planner renting out the wedding reception room. Why should any of them be compelled? Decency comes to mind. Dare I even suggest Christian charity.

    I get that Jack Phillips is mad at the Supreme Court for green-lighting gay marriage. I also get that there is an artistic component to cake decorating and an artist should have some control over where and how his art is displayed. But every chef and caterer has some argument there. In the end it’s food meant to be cut up and eaten. I disagree that there is any inherent religious significance to the cake. Heck, even atheists and divorcees can commision wedding cakes from Phillips. Just not you know….

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  122. Lurker,

    He will not participate in a farce. You can buy a cake. Thr second you say that cake is for an event that goes against Christian faith, he says no.

    Only Christians get attacked because the goal is to topple the existing culture. Ruining his life is a bonus.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  123. Indeed, a lesbian couple was denied cupcakes for their wedding.

    How did he know they were a lesbian couple and the cupcakes were for their wedding? They told him, right? Like the he-become-a-she, told him that the blue and pink cake was for his-now-her coming off out party.

    “You may not like it, but you will lie back and take it, darling boy! You will be part of a same-sex wedding, one way or another!”

    Compelled symbolic speech.

    nk (fc90c0)

  124. Aphrael & AJ,

    IANAL but here’s my understanding.

    A business open to the public cannot discriminate based on race/gender/ethnicity/faith/sexual orientation/etc.

    But the state cannot compel speech or punish people based on their speech.

    So, if you’re a gay/black/Christian, a company that paints houses cannot refuse to do business with you because of that fact. But, you cannot compel a painter to create a mural that celebrates an aspect of your life/character.

    The first is just business, the 2nd is speech. The line between the 2 is open to debate.
    Refusing to sell a cupcake that’s in the display case to gay couple seems like it’s illegal.
    Refusing to make a custom work of art to celebrate that couples marriage should be protected speech.
    Is putting an extra dollop of frosting on the cupcake speech?

    I think the clowns harassing the bigoted baker are doing so by trying to find exactly where that line is.

    I think it’s unfortunate that the clowns are harassing the old guy. I’m not at all sympathetic to his POV but this still feels unfair to me.

    But this is where I disagree with FWO and Whembly. They’re vocal advocates for the government punishing speech they disagree with in the misguided belief that this will someone benefit them in the long run.

    Time123 (087417)

  125. @123, Rob, I’m glad to tell you that your POV is a distinct minority.

    You’ve already lost the culture on this subject. But, you’ll be glad to know that the first amendment protects minority points of view like yours.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/393197/same-sex-marriage-support-inches-new-high.aspx

    Time123 (087417)

  126. @99, NJRob, I completely agree with his comment!

    Time123 (087417)

  127. In the future, it is likely that group marriage will be recognized (“the culture” is moving in that direction) and so the same conflicts are likely to arise in that context.

    mikeybates (dd20f5)

  128. Wordle in five with BAKER as my starting word.

    nk (fc90c0)

  129. Would have had it in three if I had used PIETY.

    nk (fc90c0)

  130. @70 The bible also says render onto caesar what is caesars

    Funny how leftists who quote that passage always leave out the second half.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  131. In the future, it is likely that group marriage will be recognized (“the culture” is moving in that direction) and so the same conflicts are likely to arise in that context.

    mikeybates (dd20f5) — 11/22/2022 @ 6:58 am

    And the usual suspects will go on to claim, “Well, I don’t agree with it, but who are we to push back against it?”

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  132. I have zero doubt you honestly believe that.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:10 pm

    Because it’s true. That’s why leftists and their media mouthpieces always have a conniption fit whenever the right asserts itself politically and culturally.

    The last 50 years are elegant proof of that, or the NSBA and DoJ wouldn’t have colluded to declare parents who were resisting them and working to replace left-wing board members as domestic terrorists.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  133. Do you doubt that your left wing counterparts honestly believe the mirror opposite?

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:36 pm

    I don’t feel bad for being anti-leftist. It clearly bothers you a great deal, though.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  134. In the spirit of thanksgiving, I will say that I am thankful to live in a country, however flawed, that allows us the freedom to move about the country at-will and without needing prior approval. This type of freedom also extends to other activities as well.

    To the lawyers on this site, I express my gratitude for their chosen vocation, especially when they use their gifts to ensure that their clients get due process. Thank you to the retired lawyers who help mentor and seek to correct the youthful missteps common to new practitioners of the law.

    To my fellow commenters, I say thank you for attacking ideas rather than persons; you provide a good example to us all, and are a comfort to those who see this site as an oasis where equals can argue in good faith.

    May you, and your loved ones travel in safety.

    Finally, if you find yourself isolated, please be assured of my spiritual closeness to you – I, too, have experienced profound loneliness. You are not alone. Do not give in to despair.

    If you find yourself able to venture out to where others may be found, look for one such as yourself, and silently give them a hug and save them and yourself as well.

    felipe (484255)

  135. It’s no longer about equal protection. It’s about being equally celebrated, and bakers and second graders had better not be sitting on their hands while everyone else claps.

    JF (e36b02)

  136. Too much? Try this. Courtesy of three wise men.

    felipe (484255)

  137. @125

    But this is where I disagree with FWO and Whembly. They’re vocal advocates for the government punishing speech they disagree with in the misguided belief that this will someone benefit them in the long run.

    Time123 (087417) — 11/22/2022 @ 6:19 am

    And I’ve yet to see from you what ought to be done when faced with the same “government punishing speech they disagree” from the left.

    Please, spell it out.

    whembly (d116f3)

  138. @134

    Do you doubt that your left wing counterparts honestly believe the mirror opposite?

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:36 pm

    I don’t feel bad for being anti-leftist. It clearly bothers you a great deal, though.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897) — 11/22/2022 @ 7:24 am

    Preach FWO.

    That’s where I’m at. I’m instinctually #NeverDemocrats these days.

    whembly (d116f3)

  139. @135 felipe (484255) — 11/22/2022 @ 7:24 am

    Great post. May you enjoy good company this thanksgiving and have a blessed holiday season.

    whembly (d116f3)

  140. DeSantis is beating Disney in Florida, and he’s beating Trump in Iowa.

    Paul Montagu (b351b8)

  141. Creating a wedding cake is not expressive conduct because it is unlikely that viewers of the cake will attach any specific message to Jack Phillips (whether he endorses or does not endorse same sex marriage). If anything, they will attach the meaning to the customer who purchased the cake. If you get a birthday card, do you think about how sweet it was that Hallmark was thinking about you…or do you consider the message as coming solely from the card giver? Wedding rings are also symbolic…and are actually prominent at the ceremony….can jewelers claim a similar exemption to discrimination laws? The usual suspects don’t opine on how far down the commercial chain this filters. I argue that it’s key to a workable ruling.

    Cakes are not traditional mediums for art. It is no more art than a Subway Sandwich Artist making a hot turkey sub. It is also unclear how the cake’s message changes with a different style of cake. Does white icing convey something different from chocolate? What does the number of tiers say? I’ve seen landscapers style lawns, are they engaged in expressive speech as well? There are lots of ways to protest gay marriage….this isn’t one of them

    AJ_Liberty (5f05c3)

  142. And I’ve yet to see from you what ought to be done when faced with the same “government punishing speech they disagree” from the left.

    Please, spell it out.

    The courts should strike down laws that do that, and prevent local officials from abusing their power to discriminate against viewpoints they oppose. When people like Sen Warren cheer for authoritarian policies we should speak out against them. Not because we oppose their goal (even though we should do that also) but because we oppose authoritarianism.

    Politicians of either strip who advocate for that should be condemned and criticized.

    If government pressure has caused harm to the speaker they should sue.

    I’d also like to see stricter guidelines and better rights of action for people harmed by these situations.

    Time123 (303e0c)

  143. AJ, I think this is an edge case. It’s not hard to envision a cake as ‘work of art’ even if that’s not the traditional use. I will say that it’s worth scrutiny as “my job is my art and therefore I should get first amendment protection for all work related decisions” could easily be abused.

    Time123 (087417)

  144. I wonder if this time DeSantis will be a spoiler all the way through the Convention or drop out and hand his delegates to Trump as soon as he’s knocked out Youngkin. Yeah, I’m talking about Cruz.

    And Nikki? Well, yeah, she kept the mud off the hem, but the hay is still stuck on the back of her dress. (Sexist, I know.)

    And I’ll probably be fooled again.

    nk (fc90c0)

  145. Why do we need to envision a cake as a work of art? Why can’t we just envision it as work? And leave the working man in peace?

    What the courts need to address is the concept of “public accommodation” within the meaning of the Thirteenth Amendment.

    nk (fc90c0)

  146. @119: I did not know that. If so, that makes it simple discrimination since the bakeshop was just selling packaged goods and had no right to specify how they might be used.

    There is a huge difference between that and customizing the cake to celebrate SSM.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  147. But, you’ll be glad to know that the first amendment protects minority points of view like yours.

    Asa long as you don’t step outside your front door.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  148. Would have had it in three if I had used PIETY.

    Depends on your next word a lot.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  149. Do I have a duty to sell sheets to Klansmen, even though I refuse customize them with eyeholes?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  150. DeSantis is beating Disney in Florida, and he’s beating Trump in Iowa.

    Cruz beat Trump in Iowa.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  151. @150, No. You can refuse service to the Klan, The GOP, the Dem’s, Neo-Nazi, Boy Scouts, Comic book collectors, people not meeting a dress code etc. The list is pretty long with just a few specific exceptions of things you can’t discriminate on.

    It does lead to some ‘unfairness’. For instance a Jewish baker could refuse to do business with a Nazi customer. But a Nazi baker could not refuse to do business with a Jewish customer. Because you can discriminate based on political affiliation but not religion.

    Time123 (303e0c)

  152. Cruz beat Trump in Iowa.

    And then Trump pissed and moaned that the caucuses were “stolen” from him. I don’t know of anyone who took his whining seriously at the time, but we should have.

    Paul Montagu (b351b8)

  153. Cleaning house:

    ……..
    In a Monday afternoon memo to employees, Iger said that Kareem Daniel, head of Disney’s controversial Disney Media and Entertainment Distribution unit, would be leaving the company.
    …….
    Daniel had been elevated to one of the most powerful positions in Disney by his former boss, Bob Chapek, who was ousted Sunday night in a stunning move by Disney’s board. Many executives complained that they lost their autonomy when he was promoted in October 2020.

    So far, Wall Street has supported the dramatic leadership change inside America’s most famous entertainment company.

    Shares of Disney surged Monday on the news that Iger is returning as chief executive. They closed up $5.78, or 6.3%, at $97.58.
    …….
    Media analyst Michael Nathanson praised the return of Iger, raising his rating on the Disney stock to outperform (buy).
    …….
    “What I like about Bob Iger: He’s been direct, he’s been honest,” Nathanson said. “He’ll make tough choices. There are tough choices here as far as the assets they have and the investment they need.”
    ……..
    “It’s going to be a different regime than when he first started,” Nathanson said. “He has to cut things. He has to look at the portfolio and really make some hard decisions.”

    Disney announced last week that it had lost $1.5 billion in its last financial quarter on its streaming services, which have added subscribers without approaching profitability.
    ……..
    The company is valued at $164 billion. Over his career as chief executive, Iger, 71, grew the company’s market capitalization from $48 billion to $257 billion.
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  154. Private businesses are prohibited from religious discrimination in hiring, but not in how they deal with the public.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  155. A while back I posted a transcribed video of a Russian who had completely lost patience with the mathematical ability of the artillerymen to adjust because they were half a kilometer off and he used the word abacist derisively. I think that was the first time I’d seen that word used in a sentence.

    On the topic at hand: DeSantis needs to co-opt Trumps base early as possible because if he waits too long they may sit the election out, and he is going to have to have the “guilt by association with trumpfans” stink off as soon as possible so it is old news in 2024. Sort of like how its best to bury the skunk the same day it got run over. Then he can go after the votes of suburban moms. (I almost wrote: then he can go after suburban moms… but remembered nk was in the room).

    PS: I don’t know about the rest of the country, but Youngkin is really going to have to work hard to get the name recognition DeSantis has nationwide. The press spent so much time knocking FLA and DeSantis over his COVID policies and gave DeSantis free name recognition

    steveg (acd8c7)

  156. This ought to be fun:

    Donald Trump will personally take the stand in Manhattan next year to defend his real-estate and golf-resort empire from New York Attorney General Letitia James’ $250 million fraud lawsuit, which seeks to bar his family from doing business in the state.
    ……..
    “They (Donald Trump, Jr., Ivanka Trump, and Eric Trump) will be here,” said lawyer Alina Habba, who represents the company and Trump himself. “All of them.”

    Trump would prefer the case be tried by a jury of Manhattan residents, the lawyer also revealed.
    ……..
    Lawyers for the attorney general’s office, meanwhile, asked for a bench trial, to be presided over by state Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron, the same judge who oversaw two years of litigation leading up to the September 21 filing of the attorney general’s lawsuit.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  157. Private businesses are prohibited from religious discrimination in hiring, but not in how they deal with the public.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 11/22/2022 @ 9:39 am

    This true at the federal level. States have different laws.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  158. Letitia James’ $250 million fraud lawsuit, which seeks to bar his family from doing business in the state.

    How does she do that? Attainder of fraud?

    Lawyers for the attorney general’s office, meanwhile, asked for a bench trial, to be presided over by state Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron, the same judge who oversaw two years of litigation leading up to the September 21 filing of the attorney general’s lawsuit.

    Failing that, by newly-appointed judge Hillary Clinton.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  159. The biggest way that our media interfered in the 2016 election is, arguably, the immense amount of air time they gave to the orange loser.

    Here’s what Les Moonves said at the time:

    Of the tone of the 2016 Republican presidential campaign, and the advertising dollars it delivered, Moonves said, “It may not be good for America, but it’s damn good for CBS … Man, who would have expected the ride we’re all having right now? … The money’s rolling in and this is fun … I’ve never seen anything like this, and this [is] going to be a very good year for us. Sorry. It’s a terrible thing to say. But, bring it on, Donald. Keep going.”[28] He added, “Donald’s place in this election is a good thing.”

    They have done similar things in the past, giving coverage to people they despise, in order to attack Republicans, especially conservative Republicans. But 2016 was far beyond their previous efforts.

    Jim Miller (f29931)

  160. Letitia James’ $250 million fraud lawsuit, which seeks to bar his family from doing business in the state.

    How does she do that? Attainder of fraud?

    This is civil, not criminal, action, and has nothing to do with bills of attainder.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  161. @124 remember lester maddox and his restaurant Isn’t about time for alices restaurant again.

    asset (e774fb)

  162. @131 Selling cakes is not his. The second part is not about selling cakes. Christian existentialists know this fundimental are too ignorant to know anything and prosperity christians ignore it.

    asset (e774fb)

  163. asset gnawed through the restraints again…

    EPWJ (650a62)

  164. @135 Thanks everyone for letting me post!

    asset (e774fb)

  165. @141 Desatan has other enemies then disney and trump who he is not beating.

    asset (e774fb)

  166. This is civil, not criminal, action, and has nothing to do with bills of attainder.

    Did not say it did. There is a penalty called “attainder” in English common law, notably “attainder of treason.” See here: https://www.britannica.com/topic/attainder

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  167. A civil suit that strips people of their civil rights is scary, particularly with the reduced level of proof.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  168. Because you can discriminate based on political affiliation but not religion.

    So, an employer could discriminate against a gay man who contributed to a pro-SSM initiative, but only on the basis of the contribution?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  169. @131 Selling cakes is not his. The second part is not about selling cakes. Christian existentialists know this fundimental are too ignorant to know anything and prosperity christians ignore it.

    asset (e774fb) — 11/22/2022 @ 12:06 pm

    Nothing you posted here refuted my observation that leftists love to focus on the first part while ignoring the second part, much like how Satan used scripture to tempt Christ in the desert.

    Their obsession with worldly demands is much like the first marxist identified in the Bible:

    “But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was going to betray Him, asked, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold for three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor?” Judas did not say this because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money bag, he used to take from what was put into it.”

    The modern-day equivalent of this would be, “Why didn’t Elon Musk use that $44 billion to feed the hungry instead of buying Twitter?”

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  170. Posters here are upset that their first amendment rights of freedom of religion and speech are being trampled on. Really? Where is your kent state and jackson state? Your fred hampton and mark clark? Want to try and defend jan. 6 insurrection? Remember what pastor Neimoller said (paraphrase) when they came for anti war protesters you said nothing. When they came for the black panthers you said nothing. When they came for the left you said nothing. Now they come for you.

    asset (e774fb)

  171. @170 now you forgot the second part. Judas do you really care so much about the poor. do you?

    asset (e774fb)

  172. He cares more than you do asset. He understands that communism only brings starvation and death while you try and poison the minds of others with your wretched twisted beliefs.

    NJRob (c44c94)

  173. This is civil, not criminal, action, and has nothing to do with bills of attainder.

    Did not say it did. There is a penalty called “attainder” in English common law, notably “attainder of treason.” See here: https://www.britannica.com/topic/attainder

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 11/22/2022 @ 1:02 pm

    Well, there is no such thing as “attainder of fraud.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  174. @170 now you forgot the second part. Judas do you really care so much about the poor. do you?

    asset (e774fb) — 11/22/2022 @ 1:40 pm

    It’s a little early in the week to be drunk-posting, isn’t it? Pointing out the parasitism and mendacity of marxists is irrelevant to my own feelings about the poor.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  175. Lest we forget: 59 years ago this day; November 22, 1963:

    “Here is a bulletin from CBS NEWS…”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywVApePvA

    ‘They should bring Walter Cronkite back’ @elonmusk

    DCSCA (6e74a0)

  176. Do you doubt that your left wing counterparts honestly believe the mirror opposite?

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/21/2022 @ 10:36 pm

    I don’t feel bad for being anti-leftist. It clearly bothers you a great deal, though.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897) — 11/22/2022 @ 7:24 am

    I asked a straightforward, respectful question. Your clairvoyant deflection isn’t an answer.

    I’ve told you what I object to in your opinions, and it’s not remotely that you’re “anti-leftist.” He11, I’m anti-leftist (also anti-rightist). We just have very different views on the meaning of “leftist,” and more significantly, of “anti.”

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  177. So, asset,

    Why did they come for Fred Hampton and not Bill Ayers?

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  178. The modern-day equivalent of this would be, “Why didn’t Elon Musk use that $44 billion to feed the hungry instead of buying Twitter?”

    The answer is that investing in a productive enterprise IS feeding the hungry, just indirectly and usually more and better.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  179. “The answer is that investing in a productive enterprise IS feeding the hungry, just indirectly and usually more and better.”

    After the last few weeks, I don’t think I would characterize the Twitter purchase this way.

    Davethulhu (02f479)

  180. The effect of capitalism and trade on world hunger and lifespan 1810-2009

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo (5 minutes)

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  181. After the last few weeks, I don’t think I would characterize the Twitter purchase this way.

    SpaceX stood at the edge of bankruptcy a decade ago.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  182. But even if Musk loses every dime, he did not burn the money. It all went somewhere, and it got spent on food eventually, either immediately or by the mechanic whose work was paid by the shoe salesman who was paid by the lawyer who worked on the Twitter mess.

    Q: Who benefits society more, the rich man who donates $1000 to a food bank, or the rich man who spends $1000 on new skis?

    A: Neither. The money all goes into the same system.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  183. Of course, the resulting WEALTH is different that $44 million, either up or down, but that is another matter best addressed to the Fed.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  184. @178 fred hampton was threat. A militant jesse jackson or obama. Bill ayres and dorn were foot soldiers and no threat to the power structure. There are videos of fred hampton organizing the young blacks of chicago before he was murdered. Chicago police made a deal with the black stone rangers drug gang to assassinate other black panthers.

    asset (e774fb)

  185. @176 I remember that day some cheered in my christian school. I will never forget the smirk on oswald’s face when they asked him if he shot the president.

    asset (e774fb)

  186. @173 What beliefs are wretched and twisted? Many times here I have said I am neither a socialist or communist. I own a very small business for over 40 years (been in the business over 50 years) so I am a capitalist wage slave master except I don’t have any capitalist wage slaves. I am one of a handful of philosophers who live their philosophy NON-exploitive capitalism. Drive mostly poor people around cheeper then uber/lyft because I am more efficient service. I charge $4.95 for 5 miles compare that to uber/lyft or taxis. I am not a taxi but I have to buy taxi insurance which costs me over $4000 a year.

    asset (e774fb)

  187. #176

    Query — it’s 1963. Should anyone feel this way about William McKinley’s assassination?

    Appalled (b190ad)

  188. I asked a straightforward, respectful question. Your clairvoyant deflection isn’t an answer.

    Sure it is. It just isn’t the one you wanted.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  189. The answer is that investing in a productive enterprise IS feeding the hungry, just indirectly and usually more and better.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 11/22/2022 @ 3:23 pm

    It’s more that the question is a false dilemma and appeal to emotion, and thus should be rejected out of hand. There’s no connection between Musk’s purchase of Twitter and his ability to feed poor people; it’s just leftists who are out of sorts about the prospect of their social media safe space being revised into something that isn’t actively curated to serve their political needs.

    And this wasn’t something that happened organically; it was a deliberate, targeted effort that began following the Great Meme War of 2105-16 that resulted in Trump’s election, which led the Tech Trust and its commissars to implement policies like shadowbans, trend manipulation, and arbitrary bans of right-wing speech. The latest effort by these scumbags is to try and get Twitter banned from the app stores, similar to what happened to Gab. One guy who stayed on bragged on Twitter about running an all-nighter to fix the site’s back-end code and how awesome it made him feel and he got dogpiled by a bunch of dangerhairs and genderspecials. All because Twitter is not being run by some mentally ill SJWs and their staff of overgrown children who treated Twitter like an adult daycare instead of a business (which is why it lost money in 10 out of the last 12 years).

    These people absolutely cannot stand it when wrongthink exists somewhere that they can’t shut up or suppress. They want anarchy for their side, and tyranny for everyone else.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  190. Query — it’s 1963. Should anyone feel this way about William McKinley’s assassination?

    Appalled (b190ad) — 11/22/2022 @ 4:54 pm

    McKinley’s assassination didn’t cause the kind of generational trauma that it did for Silents and Boomers, who turned him into a political demigod and have been trying to re-elect his avatar in various forms ever since.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  191. Bill ayres and dorn were foot soldiers and no threat to the power structure.

    Bill Ayers put a bomb in the Senate cloakroom. I cannot imagine what they would have done to a J6 activist who tried that.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  192. Query — it’s 1963. Should anyone feel this way about William McKinley’s assassination?

    It led to the TR presidency, so it wasn’t a complete loss. Compare with LBJ.

    Kevin M (1ea396)

  193. @188. Not particularly; better remembered for his collage pranks; he attended my own alma matter and is remembered best for leading a cow up the bell tower and leaving it there- as it could not be led down steps. Very ‘Animal House’ move by ol’ Billy.

    DCSCA (72aa56)

  194. @188. If it makes you feel any better, back in ’73, while dating a college girlfriend from guess-where, Texas, nicknamed JFK ‘Ol’Scatterbrains’ over a ravioli lunch after our history class– and she didn’t stop laughing for an hour– especially when I added, ‘what, too soon?’ 😉

    DCSCA (72aa56)

  195. Bill Ayers put a bomb in the Senate cloakroom. I cannot imagine what they would have done to a J6 activist who tried that.

    Kevin M (1ea396) — 11/22/2022 @ 5:28 pm

    Fred Hampton also didn’t have the commies in the National Lawyers Guild providing him with safe houses.

    Weather Underground were also absolutely a threat until some of those spastics, including Ayers’ girlfriend, blew themselves up in Greenwich Village making the bomb for the Fort Dix dance. They unironically believed that a race war would bring about the marxist utopia and used violence to provoke it.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  196. I asked a straightforward, respectful question. Your clairvoyant deflection isn’t an answer.

    Sure it is. It just isn’t the one you wanted.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897) — 11/22/2022 @ 5:04 pm

    I don’t care that it’s erroneous and belligerent. It’s absolutely not an answer to what I asked. It may be the answer to some question you’re sure I had in mind in my leftist scheme to pick on conservatives, but not being privy to your imagination I have no idea what that question is.

    So again, no, you didn’t answer the question. And frankly I don’t understand why. It wasn’t a gotcha. It’s not as if I think there’s an answer you might give that would embarrass you off your dopey Manichean worldview. But whatever. If you don’t want to answer, don’t answer. Just spare me the silliness that non-responsive hostility is an answer.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  197. So again, no, you didn’t answer the question. And frankly I don’t understand why. It wasn’t a gotcha. It’s not as if I think there’s an answer you might give that would embarrass you off your dopey Manichean worldview. But whatever. If you don’t want to answer, don’t answer. Just spare me the silliness that non-responsive hostility is an answer.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/22/2022 @ 7:00 pm

    No, you’re just doing the same dumb “BOF SYDEZ!” nonsense that conflict-averse fence-riders always take. Why should I give a rip of leftists “believe the same thing” from the opposite side? I’m not the one who implemented the ethic of “repressive tolerance” and argued that free speech rights should be suppressed if they come from the right, and that a double standard should be applied for anything coming from the left. The left only starts freaking out when they get their own medicine served back to them, and there’s literally nothing you or any other fence-rider can say that will change that fact.

    I honestly don’t care that it bothers you so much when leftists are resisted. In fact, your protestations towards it are a good indication that such resistance should be increased, not ramped down.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  198. No, you’re just doing the same dumb “BOF SYDEZ!” nonsense that conflict-averse fence-riders always take.

    Sometimes bothsidesism is a false equivalence, and sometimes it’s an accurate description of reality. In this case it’s the latter.

    Why should I give a rip of leftists “believe the same thing” from the opposite side?

    And finally we have the first inkling of an answer to my question. One has to read between the lines to find it, but hey, baby steps. So you acknowledge that aggrieved tribal leftists do see the social conflict in remarkably similar terms to your own. Good. Again, baby steps.

    I’m not the one who implemented the ethic of “repressive tolerance” and argued that free speech rights should be suppressed if they come from the right, and that a double standard should be applied for anything coming from the left.

    TL;DR: They started it. Yeah, we’ve been here before. Race to the bottom and all. (It shouldn’t surprise you that the leftists have an equally self-certain and well-documented origins mythology.)

    The left only starts freaking out when they get their own medicine served back to them, and there’s literally nothing you or any other fence-rider can say that will change that fact.

    Yes, I know you’re righteously impervious to persuasion, just like your so-called enemies are. I’m not one to kink-shame, but maybe you and they should get a room and leave the rest of us out of it.

    I honestly don’t care that it bothers you so much when leftists are resisted.

    Your perception of my bother levels is at best distorted. As you know, I do think your and your opponents’ tribal animosity sucks, but the second I log off here I return to the real world and a life of real relationships with real people I care about from every political persuasion. In that world, the one that matters, your sad obsession with your perceived enemies is no bother to me whatsoever.

    In fact, your protestations towards it are a good indication that such resistance should be increased, not ramped down.

    As I said, sad.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  199. Sometimes bothsidesism is a false equivalence, and sometimes it’s an accurate description of reality. In this case it’s the latter.

    Not really.

    And finally we have the first inkling of an answer to my question. One has to read between the lines to find it, but hey, baby steps. So you acknowledge that aggrieved tribal leftists do see the social conflict in remarkably similar terms to your own. Good. Again, baby steps.

    No, I’ve identified their double standard here plenty of times. You simply don’t like it when the right decides to push back against it, although you’d never acknowledge it.

    TL;DR: They started it. Yeah, we’ve been here before. Race to the bottom and all. (It shouldn’t surprise you that the leftists have an equally self-certain and well-documented origins mythology.)

    More BOF SYDEZ stupidity. It’s not like I’ve documented it using their own words or anything, but that would be too much for you to confront.

    Yes, I know you’re righteously impervious to persuasion, just like your so-called enemies are. I’m not one to kink-shame, but maybe you and they should get a room and leave the rest of us out of it.

    Or else what?

    Your perception of my bother levels is at best distorted. As you know, I do think your and your opponents’ tribal animosity sucks, but the second I log off here I return to the real world and a life of real relationships with real people I care about from every political persuasion. In that world, the one that matters, your sad obsession with your perceived enemies is no bother to me whatsoever.

    And in the real world, the one where I’m happily married with three amazing, smart kids, your petty hall monitoring is no bother to me whatsoever. On here, where debate takes place, I’m more than happy to tell you to stop being such a simp.

    As I said, sad.

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/22/2022 @ 8:21 pm

    Yes, your perpetual whining about tribalism is quite sad.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  200. Latest poll Trump 55% of republicans. Desatan 25% everyone else single didgets. By the way a young lady from the cherokee tribe is asking u.s. house of rep. to honor 1835 treaty signed by u.s. and seat delegate from cherokee nation of oklahoma. More likely house will speak with fork tongue.

    asset (088f33)

  201. And in the real world, the one where I’m happily married with three amazing, smart kids, your petty hall monitoring is no bother to me whatsoever.

    I’m truly glad for you that you have that. Is any of those people or anyone else close to you a dreaded leftist?

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  202. FWO: “The left only starts freaking out when they get their own medicine served back to them, and there’s literally nothing you or any other fence-rider can say that will change that fact.”

    There is a certain awfulness to some of the exchanges here. As Thanksgiving approaches, I’m really thankful that my work is extremely interesting and that I’m surrounded by a lot of inspiring and talented individuals. I’m especially thankful for people who enjoy laughing, who aren’t tied up in knots, passive aggressive, or just perpetually miserable. Life is good.

    Politics can be fun. There are important issues and matters worth fighting for. But how one fights matters also. Politics is the art of persuasion. And some people can make points but in the end come across as bullies and a$$es. Would I want to join their team? Do they draw me to their fight or make it unappealing? Do they inspire me to be a better person or do they want to make me as awful as their perceived enemies?

    I don’t always agree with David French, but he always makes me think…not just emotionally respond….and he challenges me with who I want to be as a person. I never leave a French article thinking, well, that was a particularly awful screed…or a dreary dive into ideological sop. Few people are just their politics. Most have interesting stories and compelling narratives. It’s simpler to hate and dismiss. But is that really the way to go through life?

    AJ_Liberty (6a18fd)

  203. I’m truly glad for you that you have that. Is any of those people or anyone else close to you a dreaded leftist?

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/23/2022 @ 1:25 am

    Yeah, and we have arguments all the time. I realize it probably shocks you that it’s possible to have strong disagreements and still care about each other, but not everyone is so pathologically averse to such things.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  204. Politics is the art of persuasion.

    No, politics is the art of institutional capture. That’s something the GOPe and the fence-riders perptually fail to understand, which is why we are at where we currently are as a nation.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897)

  205. Someone wrote in the Wall Street Journal, Brian Kemp could/shoud be the candidate.

    Didn’t write anything about anything he might have said about foreign policy.

    It is true that Brian Kemp, like Mike Pence, is shielded from fear of supporting false election claims

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  206. Robert Todd Lincoln was present, or almost present, at three presidential assassinations.

    https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/robert-todd-lincoln-and-presidential-assassinations-not-formal-title.htm

    …President and Mrs. Lincoln invited their son, then Capt. Robert T. Lincoln of Gen. Ulysses S. Grant’s staff, to Ford’s Theater to see a performance of Our American Cousin on the night of April 14, 1865. The younger Lincoln declined, telling his father that he planned to retire early that night. Several different people claimed to have been the one to inform him of John Wilkes Booth’s attack on his father at the theater, and Lincoln himself remembered only that numerous people came to him that night with the awful news. He immediately left for the Petersen house, where his father, unconscious but alive, had been taken after Booth shot him. Future Secretary of State John Hay, one of Abraham Lincoln’s private secretaries and a lifelong friend of Robert’s, wrote that, “After a natural outburst of grief, young Lincoln devoted himself the rest of the night to soothing and comforting his mother.” Robert was there at 7:22 a.m. on April 15 when President Lincoln died….

    …In early 1881, however, he relented and agreed to serve as Secretary of War under President James A. Garfield.

    a depiction of Charles Guiteau shooting the President
    Charles Guiteau shot President James A. Garfield on July 2, 1881. Secretary of State James G. Blaine was standing next to the President when Guiteau attacked. Secretary of War Robert T. Lincoln was about 40 feet away and walking toward Blaine and Garfield.
    Frank Leslie’s Illustrated Newspaper

    On July 2, 1881, President Garfield was scheduled to leave for a trip to New England. While some cabinet members and their wives were scheduled to go on the trip, Lincoln was unable to depart until the following day. He went to Washington, D.C.’s Baltimore and Potomac train station that morning to meet the President and let him know that the Lincolns would be along on July 3. He was about forty feet away and walking toward President Garfield and Secretary of State James G. Blaine when Charles Guiteau approached from behind and shot Garfield twice. By Lincoln’s own recollection, “I think I reached him in fifteen seconds.” Secretary Lincoln immediately sent for Dr. D.W. Bliss, then ordered four companies of soldiers to immediately come to the train depot for security. When Garfield was moved back to the White House, Lincoln made sure that “all intruders were out of the grounds and a strong military guard on duty there and another at the jail to prevent lynching and a reserve between.” As historian Jason Emerson notes, Lincoln’s decisive actions after the attack on Garfield were reminiscent of Secretary of War Edwin Stanton’s on the night Booth shot Abraham Lincoln. However, the memory of his father’s murder sixteen years before haunted him. “My god,” he said to a New York Times reporter the day after the shooting. “How many hours of sorrow I have passed in this town.”

    President James A. Garfield died on September 19, 1881, eighty days after being shot. Vice President Chester A. Arthur was sworn in as the 21st President of the United States and traveled to Elberon, New Jersey, where Garfield died, to escort his predecessor’s body back to the capital. After Garfield’s late September funeral and once Congress convened in December 1881, Arthur kept only one cabinet officer appointed by Garfield: Robert Todd Lincoln, who served as Secretary of War until the end of the Arthur presidency….

    …After returning from England, Robert Lincoln became general counsel of the Pullman Palace Car Company. When founder George Pullman died in 1897, Lincoln was elevated to the company’s presidency. In 1901, the Lincolns vacationed all summer in New Jersey. As they traveled back to Chicago in early September, they decided to make a stop in Buffalo, New York to visit the Pan-American Exposition, a world’s fair intended to promote trade and friendship between the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. The Lincolns’ train pulled into the Buffalo train station on the evening of Friday, September 6. A Pullman employee was waiting and immediately handed Lincoln a telegram that read: “President McKinley was shot down by an anarchist in Buffalo this afternoon. He was hit twice in the abdomen. Condition serious.”

    Lincoln immediately went to the home of John G. Milburn, president of the Pan-American Exposition, where McKinley was resting after a seemingly successful surgery to repair internal damage caused by Leon Czolgosz’s bullets. Lincoln spent a few minutes with the President and was convinced that McKinley would be fine. Lincoln saw the President again two days later and still believed he was improving, saying, “My visit has given me great encouragement” for McKinley’s recovery. He and his family left Buffalo for Chicago having enjoyed a visit to the Exposition and glad that McKinley was on the mend.

    A week later, McKinley was dead of infection. Vice President Theodore Roosevelt had visited the wounded president at the same time as Robert Lincoln the previous week and then departed for a trip to the Adirondacks. Roosevelt hurried back to Buffalo and was sworn in as the 26th President of the United States on September 14, 1901. Shortly afterwards, Lincoln sent President Roosevelt a letter that read in part, “I do not congratulate you, for I have seen too much of the seamy side of the Presidential Robe to think of it as an enviable garment.”

    Amazingly, Robert Todd Lincoln had very close ties to three presidential assassinations. While the rational mind scoffs at the idea of any human as “cursed,” the emotions lead us to wonder if such a thing might actually be possible. However, the popular old stories about Robert Lincoln being “present” at the three murders are certainly untrue. He was not with his father when Booth attacked on April 14, 1865, though he was at the Petersen house when the elder Lincoln died the next morning. He was across the room but walking toward the President when Charles Guiteau felled Garfield on July 2, 1881. Lincoln personally attended and spoke with Garfield while the President lay on the train station floor. Finally, he was just entering the city of Buffalo when McKinley was shot on September 6, 1901.

    While Robert Lincoln was certainly not cursed, it is understandable that many people-including Lincoln himself-feared he may be. More likely, however, is that Lincoln’s last name and his positions in life put him in close proximity to presidents far more often than most people. `

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  207. @206 what good will that do him over half the republicans in gop primaries are election deniers.

    asset (4c794c)

  208. Some people who buy into the “probably stolen election” claims are not dead set on it so as long as Pence or Kemp are not too strong on Trump it should not affect them much. There’s a problem in being quiet, but not for Pence or Kemp.

    Sammy Finkelman (9905c7)

  209. 201. Since the 1830s, they have all been made citizens and reservations are represented in Congresss, so they;d be voting for two different representatives, But there are other peculiar things in the U.S. government,

    Sammy Finkelman (9905c7)

  210. I’m truly glad for you that you have that. Is any of those people or anyone else close to you a dreaded leftist?

    lurker (cd7cd4) — 11/23/2022 @ 1:25 am

    Yeah, and we have arguments all the time. I realize it probably shocks you that it’s possible to have strong disagreements and still care about each other, but not everyone is so pathologically averse to such things.

    Factory Working Orphan (490897) — 11/23/2022 @ 6:23 am

    That doesn’t shock me at all. On the contrary. I asked because I also argue with loved ones, and it humbles me. When someone I know is good and decent adopts a position I find incompatible with that goodness and decency, it leaves me with a cognitive dissonance I can only embrace, because what it does not and could never do is convince me that that person is no longer good or decent for holding those beliefs. And if that person is indeed good and decent, then surely so must be many others who hold such beliefs. And if among the people who hold beliefs I find anathema, many are good and decent, that’s troubling. Frankly it’s beyond my ability to rationalize to a satisfying conclusion. But one conclusion I know would be wrong is to declare them my enemies and determine to crush them by any means possible, even to the extent of abandoning my norms and principles to do so.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

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