Patterico's Pontifications

11/7/2022

Never Again? Well OK, Maybe Sometimes Again

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:25 am



I wonder what Anne Frank would say about the genocide in Ukraine and Xinjiang. Would she complain that her era’s genocide was much worse, and how dare you compare today’s to hers? I think not. I think she would say: I thought when the world said “never again” that they meant it.

“But what is happening in Xinjiang is not genocide!” The U.S. government says it is. If you want to know more about why the U.S. said that, I suggest this book.

“But what is happening in Ukraine is not genocide!” It is. If you want to know more about why I say that, I suggest this lecture.

34 Responses to “Never Again? Well OK, Maybe Sometimes Again”

  1. It is sad to watch people apply strange flexible yardsticks to atrocities.

    Simon Jester (c8876d)

  2. Yeah, this is like saying “But they aren’t gassing people, they’re just working them to death!” as if it was some different result.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  3. However, this will not be the first genocide we’ve done nothing about, and probably the one we have least control over. Had we decided to intervene in Rwanda, we could have saved many lives. Had we decided to intervene (I know why we didn’t) we could have saved many lives in Pol Pot’s Cambodia. As it turned out Vietnam intervened, and saved many lives. I hope we offered support. We did intervene, eventually, in the former Yugoslavia, although after most of the killing had stopped.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  4. We are intervening with military aid and intelligence, and many American groups/people are helping.

    DRJ (4653e0)

  5. “But what is happening in Xinjiang is not genocide!” The U.S. government says it is.

    There’s a pretty broad definition of genocide in the genocide treaty.

    Genocide doesn’t just mean killing people. It means the elimination of a group from the population.

    Not too many people are being killed outright by the Chinese government. After all, they might be a match for an organ donation.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  6. As for what’s going on Ukraine, that might better be described as politicide — in some small areas the Russian government wants to eliminate from the area anyone likely to oppose the government.

    What’s going on in Kyiv now, I don’t know what it is. The Russian government is trying to put an end to all utilities: water, electricity, and nowadays that includes telephone service, and the Ukrainian government is trying to reduce the population of Kyiv (encouraging people to move in with people they know in unaffected suburbs with a separate water supply) so that they won’t have to have so many long blackouts.

    What Russia is doing kind of reminds me of Srebrenica. They are not seeking surrender because that is not an option to anybody. They have seen how they treat the population in areas they occupy.

    Russia is not seeking an agreement to a ceasefire in place because nothing like that has been put forth – except by their foreign propaganda as a reason to cut assistance so that Ukraine would accept that.

    But murders were done in Bosnia in order to make sure that Bosnia did not attempt to surrender. The Serbs were stealing too much.

    Iran is training Russians in the use of their kamikaze drones – so far Iran has admitted (finally) selling drones to Russia but claims they were all sold before the war, and there were only a few.

    Putin is more scared of nuclear radiation than anybody else.

    Oh and another thing Putin is doing — he’s pretending that he might be dying. This went on with Brezhnev and other Soviet leaders — and was used by al Qaeda as well, and with regard to Zarkawi in Iraq. Of course when figurehead leaders die, that is kept secret. Mullah Omar’s death was kept secret for two years. This can only happen with a figurehead leader.

    Putin has been photographed with an IV track which has been kept hidden by Russia.

    https://nypost.com/2022/10/24/putin-seen-with-iv-track-marks-on-hand-amid-cancer-rumors

    Kyiv Post journalist Jason Jay Smart tweeted screenshots from the video, with the mystery blemish clearly visible on the Kremlin leader’s hand.

    Smart wrote that the Kremlin released two versions of the video from Putin’s trip: one with numerous watermarks obscuring the view of the hand, and another without the image of the hand.

    It’s probably some treatment because of his his hypochrondria, maybe a quack treatment — or monoclonal antibodies for Covid?

    But we are told he is suffering from prostate cancer – no pancreatic cancer, and the beginnings of Parkinson’s disease.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  7. 3. Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 11/7/2022 @ 9:02 am

    Had we decided to intervene in Rwanda, we could have saved many lives.

    Bill Clinton tried to cover it up (Susan Rice was involved with that) maybe because he didn’t want anyone else to intervene and show up the United States. And this despite making Raoul Wallenberg intoa hero. He didn’t want anything like that in Rwanda. Foreigners were not targets, and could have saved people.

    Clinton should have been impeached for that.

    Had we decided to intervene (I know [sic] why we didn’t) we could have saved many lives in Pol Pot’s Cambodia.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  8. As it turned out Vietnam intervened, and saved many lives. I hope we offered support.

    Au contraire!

    Not only did the UNited States not intervene, Jimmy Carter stopped Thailand from doing so in 1977. We followed the Chinese Communist line.

    Vietnam finally did in 1979 when Pol Pot persisted in attacking it. For ten years the United States did not recognize the new government of Cambodia and supported a small scale war fought for the sake of a vote in the United Nations General Assembly.

    My then Congressman Stephen Solarz, after getting scared in the 1984 re-election, looked for some anti-Communist credentials, and he found it that way.

    I made a parody in rhyme of the 1988 Democratic platform in 1987.

    It included something like:

    Any insurgency we aid,
    Must have no stain or blot.

    We must help those forces
    that are allied with Pol Pot.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  9. We did intervene, eventually, in the former Yugoslavia, although after most of the killing had stopped.

    Yes, Clinton did and I believe that the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was probably a genuine mistake — but it helped end this.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  10. She would be told the jewish genocide was different and the others are not as imporant because we say so. Sorry armenians native americans and others that just the way it is,

    asset (f953f2)

  11. Had we decided to intervene (I know [sic] why we didn’t) we could have saved many lives in Pol Pot’s Cambodia.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 11/7/2022 @ 11:48 am

    1) Why the [sic]? There is nothing wrong with that.
    2) For someone who is the King of Typos (I usually quietly correct yours in a quoteback), this is a bit much.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  12. @Kevin I thought maybe you meant you didn’t know why we didn’t intervene, because you didn’t give any reason why not, not even a word..

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  13. I knew someone would mention Native Americans, and yes, it is quite a lot like the Xinjiang thing. But the Indian Wars ended about 130 years ago. No time machines. Even Hitler has been dead for 77 years, Stalin for almost 70 years, Mao for almost 50.

    This is happening now.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  14. Sammy, I meant what I said and I intended to mention, in passing, there were reasons. Everyone knows why.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  15. The War Powers Act?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  16. @11 had nixon/kissinger had not fomented a coup against prince sihanouk cambodia would have avoided the killing fields same with allende and chile.

    asset (f953f2)

  17. Isn’t unlimited free trade grand.

    Tariffs are just evil and a tax on your own citizens, right?

    Time to rebuild own own industrial base that’s been hollowed out to these awful places.

    NJRob (f337ac)

  18. Personally, I’m saying it’s a cultural genocide or attempted cultural genocide by Putin, and the overlap with the Uighers is telling.

    When the little Russian ruler doesn’t recognize Urkaine’s right to exist or that Ukraine and Russia are really One Russia, then that’s a problem, not unlike the problem between Israel and Hamas, where the latter has a similar take toward the Jews.

    If/when there’s ever peace talks between Putin and Zelenskyy, an important precondition is that Putin recognizes Ukraine as an established sovereign state.

    Paul Montagu (793ae8)

  19. Hi Paul
    Responding to this:
    “If/when there’s ever peace talks between Putin and Zelenskyy, an important precondition is that Putin recognizes Ukraine as an established sovereign state.”

    No offense meant to you, but the Russians (Putin) will say whatever is most convenient for them in the moment and I would never believe any Russian assertions during negotiations.
    The Russians also put out a constant blizzard of BS, some of it quite clever.
    For example the Russians claim to favor Trump, but they invaded on Biden’s mid term. I find that to be inconsistent

    steveg (46a0f5)

  20. One of the more instructive genocides in recent years is the genocide committed by the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq:

    When he first campaigned for the presidency, Obama admitted in a speech that, if we elected him, and followed his proposed policies, a genocide might result.

    We elected him, and he chose as a prominent advisor Susan Rice, famous for saying they had to cover up the Rwandan genocide to protect Bill Clinton’s political viability.

    We re-elected Obama, the Islamic State rose and committed genocide on Yazidis and Christians.

    Obama was forced by events to intervene with air strikes.

    If any “mainstream” journalist has criticized Obama for his policies, and his cold-blooded acceptance of a possible genocide, I missed it. If he feels ashamed of his failure, it is not evident.

    Jim Miller (85fd03)

  21. Then again, people will use “genocide” in trivial ways. Recently, I heard someone say that trying to get coyotes out of populated parts of NM (she called it “making them extinct in Albuquerque”) constituted a genocide.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  22. Tariffs are just evil and a tax on your own citizens, right?

    Tariffs are just sin taxes. Punishing the citizen for choosing something the government doesn’t want them to do. Like smoking or buying TVs from China.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  23. @22 Sorry not good answer. Uncle milty supporter free trade allows factory worker who just lost his job that was sent out of the country to buy a foreign truck more cheaply even though he has no money to buy it. unless buying a truck is a sin. Reagan told the unemployed to vote with their feet. Companies did just that. The first thing reagan did when he left office was fly to japan and give a speech on how to sell out the american worker for cash. He got a million dollers for speech. Lee Iaccoa said so thats why he let toyota sell a car cheeper in ny with the transportation fee added then it cost in tokyo! If I had known he only cost a million dollars I would have paid him that for a speech! Wonder how much they paid him for iran/contra. Read dark victory about reagan selling out the actors in contract with studios when he became head of screen actors guild byred bating his opposition. drug dealers and organized crime first president in the white house. The contra drug dealing of iran/contra.

    asset (57f6f1)

  24. Europeans prefer to use the Value Added Tax instead of tariff. It sounds like I’m getting a great deal! Value added!

    steveg (ba8699)

  25. This is the kind of talk that drives down the stock price of Apple and Nike. Oh, won’t somebody please think of the pension funds?

    Although, to be fair, after Xi Jinping’s early reform, the PLA only owns 50% of China’s manufacture. Only. And they wouldn’t say it if it weren’t true, would they?

    nk (0e2be8)

  26. in 2004 the US actually outsourced the production of magnets used in the guidance systems for American cruise missile and precision bombs to a Chinese company.

    “We had US production,” Laura Lewis says. “Magnaquench, a subsidiary of General Motors. It was in Anderson, Indiana, and it went wholesale over to China. It was a short-term view of economics; profit up front, but then we lost our capabilities down the road.” Link.

    Genocide?When we have our quarterly earnings to worry about, you’re talking to us about genocide?

    nk (0e2be8)

  27. Maybe we should quit helping the Saudi’s genocide in Yemen.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_Yemen_(2016%E2%80%93present)

    kaf (8a2cf7)

  28. Will the Houthis stop stealing the civilians’ food if we do?

    nk (0e2be8)

  29. NK’s non de plume:


    danielle weisberg
    @danielleweisber
    ·
    19h
    I love the difference between dog and cat rescue stories. dog owners will be like oh I prepped for months and applied and had a home check then did a foster to adopt trial period and then the rescue chose me! and cat owners are like .. I found him in the trash”

    EPWJ (650a62)

  30. The USA probably decided that one Khashoggi pieced into luggage was worth ignoring in turn for 10,000 liquidated Iranian backed Houthi’s of all ages, sexes. China says: I see your Houthi’s and raise you 1,000,000 Uighurs. The Russians didn’t want to be left out of the game so they razed a good deal of Ukraine. There was vodka involved so someone needs to explain the difference between raising the stakes and razing to the Russians.

    steveg (c11110)

  31. And the penalty for commiting genocide is what?

    John B Boddie (1fed16)

  32. Hitler, Himmler, and Goering committed suicide; von Ribbentrop and Eichmann were hanged; Lenin was shot by Fanny Kaplan but actually died later from a stroke; Trotsky was killed with a hammer; Stalin lived to a ripe old age and died from a stroke; Beria was executed (probably by a shot in the head); Molotov died of old age; Mao and Pol Pot died of old age.

    nk (bb1548)

  33. “Did you know that the penalty for 2 murders is the same as for one?”

    –line from a dozen bad movies

    These days the penalty for genocide is to be subjected to endless legal process.

    Kevin M (90f346)

  34. 32 nk (bb1548) — 11/9/2022 @ 9:06 pm

    . Hitler, Himmler, and Goering committed suicide;

    Goebbels committed suicide and avoided capture. Goering was tried at Nuremberg, and committed suicide the night before he was hanged.

    von Ribbentrop and Eichmann were hanged;

    Ribbentrop was hanged on October 16, 1946. Eichmann by Israel in Jerusalem in 1962 – his body was cremated and his ashes were scattered in the Mediterranean Sea.

    Lenin was shot by Fanny Kaplan but actually died later from a stroke; Trotsky was killed with a hammer;

    By someone sent by Stalin in Mexico in 1940. His son was killed earlier in 1937, in exile in France.

    Stalin lived to a ripe old age and died from a stroke;

    Not so old (73 or 74) and he was probably killed by his doctors who gave him Coumadin for his stroke. The same thing happened to Ariel Sharon but probably not with intention of harming him.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

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