DOJ: Trump And Lawyers May Have Hidden Or Moved Classified Documents We Were Looking For
[guest post by Dana]
[Ed. Pressed for time, so a quick post on the DOJ filing last night and the incredible mess in which Trump finds himself.]
This is, frankly, unsurprising:
US government documents were “likely concealed and removed” from a storage room at Mar-a-Lago as part of an effort to “obstruct” the FBI’s investigation into former President Donald Trump’s potential mishandling of classified materials, the Justice Department said in a blockbuster court filing Tuesday night.
More than 320 classified documents have now been recovered from Mar-a-Lago, the Justice Department said, including more than 100 in the FBI search earlier this month.
Tuesday’s filing represents the Justice Department’s strongest case to date that Trump concealed classified material he was keeping at Mar-a-Lago in an attempt to obstruct the FBI’s investigation into the potential mishandling of classified material.
The Justice Department revealed the startling new details as part of its move to oppose Trump’s effort to intervene in the federal investigation that led to the search of his Florida resort and his desire for a “special master” to be appointed to the case.
Here’s a photo from the storage room finds:
NEWS: DOJ's new filing includes. photo of the classified documents found at Mar-a-Lago on Aug. 8. https://t.co/nm567c96bi pic.twitter.com/0U2hoSogxQ
— Kyle Cheney (@kyledcheney) August 31, 2022
(If you enlarge the photo, you can see the classifications on the file folders, including SCI)
Laying waste to Trump’s claims:
Trump has pushed an “incomplete and inaccurate narrative” in his recent court filings about the Mar-a-Lago search, the Justice Department said.
“The government provides below a detailed recitation of the relevant facts, many of which are provided to correct the incomplete and inaccurate narrative set forth in Plaintiff’s filings,” prosecutors wrote.
Whether to prosecute Trump is fraught with possible complications for Merrick Garland:
Political fallout, precedent and national security risk are just some of the intangibles Garland will have to consider as he considers what would potentially be the highest-profile criminal case in American history, according to former prosecutors, intelligence agency lawyers and Justice Department officials.
One consideration for Garland is how Trump’s alleged actions stack up against other cases DOJ has brought or not brought over mishandling classified information. A second factor is how confident prosecutors are they could win at trial — knowing the political fallout of a losing case against a former president could be devastating.
And finally, Garland has to consider the damage that a trial might have on national security secrets, given the nature of the Mar-a-Lago document seizures.
Of course, one unknown ultimately looms large over all the other machinations: Does Garland view Trump’s cavalier and even defiant approach to the national security secrets at Mar-a-Lago as something of sufficient magnitude to bring the first criminal case against a former president in U.S. history?
“They’re going to have to be satisfied that they’re going to have a very, very strong case to present to a grand jury and ultimately to a jury,” said former CIA general counsel Jeffrey Smith. “If the prosecutors can get over all those hurdles, given that it’s a former president, it will be a tough call for the attorney general.”
If the necessary legal thresholds are met, isn’t there an obligation to prosecute despite warnings of fallout across the nation (looking at you, Sen. Graham):
Where I disagree with some of my friends and colleagues is in the fact that I want heightened attention to politically connected crimes across the board. I think that those who argue that we should be gingerly about investigating such figures as former president Donald Trump because such investigations are bound to produce political convulsions are wrong on the merits: Former presidents should be subjected to a higher degree of scrutiny when it comes to illegal actions, not a lesser degree of scrutiny. If some nobody takes a bunch of classified documents home without going through the proper channels, that nobody is liable to go to prison. If we really mean what we say about equality before the law, then we must not refuse to investigate a former president for a similar offense because we are afraid that doing so will upset some people.
Not all riots are the same thing: Looting a sneaker store is a serious crime and ought to be treated as such, but attempting to overturn an election by means of violence is a very different sort of thing. Not all useless rich-guy drug addicts are created equal, and neither are their crimes. We should be more inclined to prosecute the powerful and the connected, rather than less inclined.
Crimes of a political character erode the foundations of the regime itself and as such are a menace more urgent and more general than what might be suggested by the particular details of the crime itself. In Texas, theft of less than $1,500 is a misdemeanor — but if Senator Bob steals $1 from the Treasury, he needs to go to the least pleasant prison we have for a very long time. A free society has to defend its institutions fiercely and with great vigilance.
P.S. From Trump this morning:
Allahpundit points to three problems with Trump’s take “that the documents really were on the premises when the FBI got there but that they’d been declassified, so who cares?”:
First, none of the potential charges he’s facing depend on whether the national defense material in his possession was classified. It’s a red herring legally. Second, and relatedly, his lawyers have never made the declassification claim. Third, the idea that Trump ever issued a “standing order” by which classified material would automatically be deemed declassified once it was on his person is preposterous even according to the people who worked for him.
Have at it.
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (1225fc) — 8/31/2022 @ 9:44 amNot the best look when this is the supposed leader of your party and he has no idea what he’s talking about…
https://redstate.com/nick-arama/2022/08/31/fetterman-didnt-show-for-joe-as-biden-lapses-into-complete-confusion-n620544
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 8/31/2022 @ 9:47 amByron York
@ByronYork
“DOJ wins daily PR battle with photo of classified
documents strewn across floor at Mar-a-Lago. Story
is Trump alleged mishandling of classified
documents, and just look at them
– scattered all
over the floor! Can you believe it?”
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/400754.php
Colonel Haiku (b267cb) — 8/31/2022 @ 9:58 amI think Trump is a better case for the EPA than the DOJ. He should be securely packaged and put away in a hazardous waste facility like any other noxious substance endangering the public.
Look, the guy is never going to stop doing wrong, he will never admit that he did wrong, and he will continue to rile up people by getting them to believe that his “victimization” is their victimization.
True, the DOJ cannot proceed based only on a grand jury standard for indictment. And not even a prima facie for trial. They need to proceed on proof beyond any doubt and the certainty that they will prevail against all his “defenses”, real and Orange.
But one way or the other, they have to LOCK HIM UP!
nk (05dc6a) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:02 amI see that Trump acolyte Byron York (at 3) has trotted out the “they framed him!” defense, and Trump supporters are only too gullible to swallow those magic beans. Anything to prevent holding Trump accountable for his actions and decisions.
Dana (1225fc) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:13 amAlso, Byron York knows that it’s not simply a matter of mishandling documents. From the filing, footnote 5:
Dana (1225fc) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:19 amDoocy has been the voice of reason (I use that word guardedly) on Fox, certainly when compared to Hannity, Tucker, et. al.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:24 am“Trunalimunumaprzure!”
—- Joe Biden, GreatGrandfatherPOTUS
Colonel Haiku (b267cb) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:26 amIs that a VHS pee tape in the upper left hand corner of that photo?!?!
It’s all coming together. Teh wallz is closing’ in!
Colonel Haiku (b267cb) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:33 amTurley has issues with this… https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/08/31/jonathan-turley-sees-obviously-misleading-impression-in-doj-photo-of-mar-a-lago-docs/
Colonel Haiku (b267cb) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:37 am“Doocy has been the voice of reason (I use that word guardedly) on Fox, certainly when compared to Hannity, Tucker, et. al.”
How about the rest of the White House press corps! Has anyone detected a pulse yet?
Colonel Haiku (b267cb) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:40 amThe photo of the government documents along with the TIME Magazine covers (at least one of which {that Trump had displayed once} was known to be fake) was probably not intended to imply that Trump kept them that way all the time, but merely was intended to supplement a sworn statement that they were stored in close proximity to each other.
Sammy Finkelman (418659) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:48 amIt’s completely unsurprising that Trumpers with their blinders on would ignore what is plain as the nose on their faces and see just what they *need* it to be to further their company line, which is that Trump is as innocent as a lamb when it comes to taking classified docs and moving them around and even possibly hiding them, despite repeated requests/warnings to turn them over. The never-ending infantilizing of a former president is deeply unhealthy and dangerous for the nation.
Dana (1225fc) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:52 amTHREAD: What should we make of the DOJ’s response to Trump’s motion for a Special Master (among other things)?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:53 amHere’s a theory that I hadn’t heard before:
David von Drehle goes on to describe his own experiences with Trump’s filing “system”, and how Trump would rummage through these piles on Air Force One, looking briefly at odds and ends that cheered him up. For Trump the piles of paper showed how important he was.
(Incidentally, von Drehle says “many in Trump’s orbit believe he is dyslexic”.)
Jim Miller (85fd03) — 8/31/2022 @ 10:54 am@Dana Here’s something that I don’t understand.
If these documents were truly still classified, then that picture when DOJ submitted to court should’ve been under seal, like all classified documents.
You’re really not supposed to even take a picture of even the folders containing top secret documents, nevermind publicly respond in court for public view.
It’s like, they *know* they’re declassified, but they’re acting ominously here to what amounts to a document dispute with NARA.
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:16 amSo, I keep going back to this issue.
The issue is thus:
– Does POTUS have plenary declassification power? If so, what does it really mean?
OR!
– POTUS is NOT uniquely special position and must abide by all classification laws/regulations as non-POTUS officials must observe.
WHERE EVER you land on the former or latter, at the very least consider the political ramifications here, and whether or not much of sturm and drang about this is partisan in nature, rather than some good faith investigation.
Here’s some contrary arguments that does seem compelling, but I think would require SCOTUS to rule on:
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:23 amWho is Mike Davis?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:26 am@20 FORMER: Chief Counsel for Nominations, U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary * Law Clerk, Justice Gorsuch
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:38 amWhy did Trump marry women from the Soviet bloc? Twice.
Why did he oppose NATO? And still does.
Where is the Wall?
Why does his family have multi-billion dollar ventures in the Arab states? As did the brother of his Secretary of Education.
Why did the Saudi golf tour play at one of his resorts? Which has never before hosted any tournament above above junior tournament level.
Why does he eat his steaks with ketchup?
Who put the Ram in the Ramalamadingdong?
nk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:40 amabove junior *amateur* level
nk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:43 amThe current rules for classifying/declassifying documents.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:45 amCorrection:
According to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in 2020, a Presidential tweet of classified information does NOT declassify it.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:46 am“Trump had his personal copy of the declassified Crossfire Hurricane / Russian collusion records.
And they are very damning for Obama, Biden, Hillary, Susan Rice, Clapper, FBI, intel.
Biden DOJ judge-shopped “for weeks” for biased Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart–who just recused from Trump’s lawsuit against Hillary on June 22.
They redacted everything they could in affidavit, to cover tracks.
Now they oppose a special master–an independent check.
Coverup.”
All of this is being dismissed as “far right conspiracy theories” by NeverTrump types, Democrats, MSM and their fellow running dogs. This is a phrase that we’ve learned translates pretty well as “things everyone will know in six months”.
Colonel Haiku (14bc62) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:50 am@24 2nd Circuit case was about a media (NYT) foia’ing document and doesn’t touch POTUS’ power really.
Furthermore, it obviously doesn’t override SCOTUS:
So, according to this SCOTUS case, any Congressionally passed statute and executive regulations don’t apply to a President.
So, my aforementioned two questions remains.
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:53 amAs others have pointed out, the legal citations in the warrant are broader than “classified information.”
18 U.S. Code § 793 (e) states that “Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document……. relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation….(f) Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.”
18 U.S. Code § 1519 is the obstruction statute.
18 U.S. Code § 2071 criminalizes the theft or destruction of government documents.
So Trump can declassify all the documents he wants, but it is irrelevant to the investigation. He is still in possession of national defense information.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:57 am@28
Thank you for admitting this far…
Not really.
Do you know this as fact?
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:59 amAnd, oh, yeah, Mike Davis:
You shouldn’t have done that whembly:
We have internet, too, you know.
nk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:08 pmUm, no.
No again. They’re presidential records, not personal records, and you don’t know if they’re originals or copies. Either way, he has no right to have them.
The Secret Service swore an oath to guard Trump and his family, not documents, and keeping those documents in a country club storeroom and private office violates all kinds of protocols for protecting classified information.
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:10 pmhref=”https://fedsoc.org/contributors/mike-r-davis”>Mike Davis:
You shouldn’t have done that whembly:
We have internet, too, you know.
nk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:11 pmThere’s a famous story about super ‘top secret’ documents used by Skunk Works engineers and technicians for development of the SR-71, various ‘stealth’ technologies and assorted classified satellite projects. The classified paperwork was — and this was at a level below the POTUS remember- so “secret”- it was broken up into need-to-know sections for the various engineering groups and technicians and purposely NOT stamped ‘TOP SECRET’ in the event the papers were inadvertently revealed by accident- or even dropped and blown across a street– so as not to attract attention to them.
WHY photograph and then publicize even the formatting of TOP SECRET cover pages of any of the very government documents you’re so concerned about other people seeing, Barney??? Especially the ones that reveal which grocery stores the WH chef buys hamburger and which assigned parking spot was for Ivanka’s Mercedes!
Millions spent by the DOJ/FBI wasted on this silly crap.
Have they found Flight 19 yet? They’re missing in Florida, too.
It’s too bad they haven’t released all the “top secret” goodies found on Hunter’s laptop. They’re not stamped top secret.
This has devolved into pure political DOJ bullsh-t. If the stuff was so sensitive- why did you wait so long — and now draw so much attention to it, Barney?
But honestly, Donald; hideous carpeting there… [or was it imaged in Barney’s office?] and those are pretty cheap frames for those TIME covers.
DCSCA (2b4773) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:11 pmSorry for the duplication.
nk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:12 pmThe decision does state that “Because declassification, even by the President, must follow established procedures….”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:13 pmI am assuming any information that is classified would also be information related to the national defense. But if Trump has declassified the documents, why hasn’t his minion Kash Patel posted the documents on the Internet?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:16 pm#22 In partial answer to your first question: There are some jobs that most American woman just won’t do.
(When the loser was in a hotel room with one of his bimbos — I forget which one — he suggested they watch “Shark Week”. Now that’s romantic!)
Jim Miller (85fd03) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:20 pmA small wrinkle, but it goes to the irrelevance of Trump’s “standing order” hoax: The DOJ did not ask “classified documents”, they asked for “all documents marked classified.”
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:23 pm@38. And the RINO blows his horn.
The hoax is this whole texercise. A total sham. Return those government paperclips or we’ll prosecute!
Memo to Barney:
As The Big Dick said to Ike: ‘Sh!t or get off the pot.’
DCSCA (2b4773) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:31 pm‘ Rank-and-file FBI agents say they cannot see how FBI Director Christopher A. Wray stays in his position after The Washington Times’ exclusive report about a senior bureau official stepping down under scrutiny for suspected political bias affecting investigations.
Kurt Siuzdak, a lawyer and former FBI agent who represents whistleblowers at the bureau, said agents tell him that Mr. Wray has lost control of the agency and should resign.
“I’m hearing from [FBI personnel] that they feel like the director has lost control of the bureau,” he said. “They’re saying, ‘How does this guy survive? He’s leaving. He’s got to leave.'”
FBI whistleblowers talking to Congress about corruption and retaliation say in disclosures that Mr. Wray was often notified of the problems within the bureau but never took action to resolve them.
That includes recent whistleblower disclosures to House Judiciary Committee Republicans about agents being forced or coerced into signing false affidavits and claims of sexual harassment and stalking. It also includes fabricated terrorism cases to elevate performance statistics, as reported this month by The Times.
“[The FBI agents] are telling me they have lost confidence in Wray. All Wray does is go in and say we need more training and we’re doing stuff about it, or we will not tolerate it,” Mr. Siuzdak said. ‘
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/aug/30/allegations-political-bias-widespread-misconduct-p/
Colonel Haiku (14bc62) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:36 pmGiven the absence of a written record, here isTrump declassifying secret documents.
Rip Murdock (fa6da7) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:40 pmNk,
You have a problem with conservative organizations?
NJRob (34bfa4) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:40 pmFound the SCOTUS leaker yet, Barney?
DCSCA (2b4773) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:46 pmWe should be more inclined to prosecute the powerful and the connected, rather than less inclined.
LOL we keep hearing the same bullcrap
more like “We should be more inclined to prosecute those attacking the powerful and connected”, which is exactly what’s animating the usual suspects
the powerful and connected were cheering on and bailing out looters of the sneaker store
it wasn’t until they became the target that they began to see a problem
JF (120f33) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:49 pmNk,
You have a problem with conservative organizations?
Not at all. I have a problem with Trump and his supporters calling themselves conservatives.
nk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:51 pmIf we really mean what we say about equality before the law, then we must not refuse to investigate a former president for a similar offense because we are afraid that doing so will upset some people.
maybe someone should’ve spoken up before “no reasonable prosecutor” became settled law
JF (120f33) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:54 pm“No reasonable prosecutor” became settled law when the guy who said it helped Trump out ten days before the 2016 by finding new dirt on Hillary, and remained settled, with Trump saying the Clintons had suffered enough, until that same guy refused to derail the investigation of Mike Flynn, for which Trump fired him.
nk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:00 pm@30 nk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 12:08 pm
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:01 pmUm… what? Was that wrong?
SCOTUS leaker? How about the Las Vegas shooter… five years later teh Feebs are still bumfuzzled.
Colonel Haiku (14bc62) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:03 pm@35
Except that’s not what SCOTUS said:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/484/518/
2nd Circuit doesn’t override SCOTUS…right??
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:03 pmnk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:00 pm
yeah nk, the investigation of Flynn, which was started by the leak of classified info to WaPo
the Big Lie is that the DOJ or anyone here cares about classified info
you all would leak the most top secret classified docs if it meant bringing down Trump
JF (120f33) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:06 pm“Davis has served in all three branches of the federal government, including for President George W. Bush, the Justice Department, House Speaker Newt Gingrich, and current Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch. Davis also led the outside support team for Justice Gorsuch’s successful confirmation to the Supreme Court.”
Colonel Haiku (14bc62) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:06 pmLook. I WISH President follows the same sort classification regulation/requires as everyone else does.
But, my perspective on is, and the reason why I’m so dogged on this issue, is to ensure that the SAME interpretation is applied to Trump as is don’t to his predecessors.
We cannot have a, ‘but Orange Man Badz, exception to the rule here.
All of this is a different conversation on whether or not it was a good idea for Trump to have these declassified documents or why they haven’t released it to the public (ie, Crossfire Hurricane stuff).
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:07 pmLOL!
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:07 pmRather than carping from the sidelines he should join Trump’s defense team.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:09 pm@49. And where’s Hoffa?????? 😉
DCSCA (d94efa) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:16 pmwhembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:59 am
Most classified information, especially in certain categories, is also national defense information.
There is also alaw that applies specifically to “classified” information but it was not cited here.
The thing is, Trump had aright to possess it at the time when he took it.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:30 pmAgain: WHY photograph and then publicize even the formatting of TOP SECRET cover pages of any of the very government documents you’re so concerned about other people seeing. It’s telling. In more ways than one.
Does AG Barney leave the keys in his squad car for Ernest and Otis to use? Or is he now strictly a biker tough:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpdxU9o_eIc&t=178s
DCSCA (d94efa) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:32 pm“The Department Of Justice” in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_n4mx1JqgE
DCSCA (d94efa) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:34 pmwew lads and gals…
https://twitter.com/thejcoop/status/1565055591634112515
https://twitter.com/thejcoop/status/1565057071485173761
Imma need a neck brace after all that whiplash…
But rhetoric is only a problem on one political party you guyz.
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:36 pmyeah nk, the investigation of Flynn, which was started by the leak of classified info to WaPo
The FBI gets its classified info from WaPo? About conversations the National Security Advisor had with the Russian Ambassador? When it, the FBI, is the federal agency primarily responsible for counter-espionage? Oh, my!
nk (6633e4) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:39 pm“Rather than carping from the sidelines he should join Trump’s defense team.”
Okay, Karen!
Colonel Haiku (8b99b0) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:42 pmRather than carping from the sidelines he should join Trump’s defense team.
And release the Kraken!
When you ask a mule his ancestry, he only mentions the horse. — Old Arab proverb (maybe)
nk (6633e4) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:42 pmnk (19cb6c) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:00 pm
Comey had inside information that, in fact, the prosecutors were not going to indict Hillary Clinton, no matter what he said, and made his “recommendation” because Attorney General Loretta Lynch wanted him to make that recommendation. so she could claim the decision was not influenced by politics.
When I told Kevin M about that the other day in another thread he said he would have resigned rather than (playact like that).
There is a deleted tweet from 2019 from Congressman John Ratcliffe that says so:
That tweet from John Ratcliffe said:
which contains a photo of the pertinent section of transcript of her testimony
It remained available on Twitter from March 12, 2019 until sometime between May 31, 2020 and June 15, 2020, then was evidently deleted. But I fished it out of the memory hole:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190314184301/https://twitter.com/RepRatcliffe/status/1105658231198765057
It is also here in the John Ratcliffe twitter archive: (bottom left corner but dated March 13)
https://polititweet.org/tweets?page=18&deleted=&account=2847221717&search=
or, better, here:
https://polititweet.org/tweet?account=2847221717&tweet=1105658231198765057
There isS also a March 13, 2019 CBS News story about John Ratcliffe saying that Lisa Page admitted that the FBI was ordered not to charge Hillary.
https://www.cbsnews.com/dfw/news/lisa-page-obama-doj-ordered-fbi-not-to-charge-hillary-clinton-no-collusion/
This fact – that DoJ prosecutors told the FBI they would not indict – is probably mentioned other places on the internet, where it serves as a defense for the FBI.
Comey had to tell Congress (Republicans on a committee made it public) that he had re-opened the investigation because he had said he would if he did. How was he to know that a search would be made of Anthony Weiner’s laptop (for other reasons) and some Hillary emails found stored on it?
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:50 pmIn a trump silly break . Republicans on michigan election board refuse to put pro-choice initiative on ballot even though it had twice the number of signatures needed. What are you afraid of voters rethugliKKKans?
asset (c2e46b) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:52 pm“If these documents were truly still classified, then that picture when DOJ submitted to court should’ve been under seal”
It takes one minute to find out that the cover sheets are unclassified
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:53 pm@66 My recollection on the regulations that it’s a big “no no” to even photo copy coversheets / folders holding classified information and I’m sure lower level staffers were sanctioned for doing so. It’s the “handling” aspect of this.
But, if it took you one minute to determine otherwise, please do show your work.
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:59 pmnk:
Comey was fired because he would not say in public that he was not investigating Trump. The investigation of Flynn was over. It was re-opened later because it was something Mike Flynn could pleadguilty to in aplea bargain sparked by a different investigation.
Trump used as an official reason for firing Comey had exceeded his authority in presuming to make a public recommendation as to whether or not to prosecute Hillary. (he didn’t follow the whole background to that) Attorney General Jeff Sessions had alerted Trump to Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein’s opinion about that being improper, and trump thought this would be an excellent excuse to fire him since he would only be doing what many Democrats were for. He also noted that Comey had told him that he (Trump) was not under investigation (the FBI had run a counterintelligence investigation)
Comey had also testified the previous week that Hillary Clinton emails were on Anthony Weiner’s computer because they had been sent to Huma Abedin to be printed, but by Monday had been forced to retract. The initial reaction in Congress was that Comey had been fired as a result of that, but Trump had been planning that for some time mostly because he didn;t trust the FBI
As a result of Comey’s firing, his deputy, Andrew McCabe, opened a criminal investigation into whether or not Comey’s firing constituted obstruction of justice.
Rod Rosenstein, who had been left in charge of all matters dealing with the 2016 election because Jeff Sessions had recused himself, did not like this apparently retaliatory investigation He did not want to leave Andrew McCabe in charge but also did not want to stop it himself.
So he tried to get President Trump to appoint Robert Mueller back to his old post as FBI Director.
Trump wasn’t interested, so Rod Rosenstein named Mueller a special counsel. In that way, removing control of the investigation from Andrew McCabe and also putting what he felt was an irreproachable person in charge.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:08 pmasset (c2e46b) — 8/31/2022 @ 1:52 pm
Some Democrats in other states have done similar things that they shoudn’t have, but nobody anticipated that.
The amendment to the Michigan state constitution would enact Roe w Wade. Right now the alternative is an old law that permits abortion only to save the life of the mother, Whether it is effect is right now an issue in the courts.
This is maybe the beginning of what you can get with partisans in charge of elections.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:13 pmMs. Habba Habba Habba may need to work her FoxNews auditions, because her employment as a lawyer appears short-lived…
Diligently! Even dressers! Where Melania keeps her unmentionables!
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:15 pmwhembly @18:
he question is, what did Trump actually do?
Even with the Russian collusion investigation Meadows negotiated with the FBI as to what to declassify. He wanted to send all the material to a conservative writer but was stymied in thee matter of the the Privacy Act was raised.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:19 pmThe resistance isn’t happy:
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:20 pmhttps://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1564878100210618368
@71
That’s a fair question Sammy that stems from what does it mean by having plenary power, if that is understood.
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:22 pmThis was a search for material related to valations Trump et all put on real estate.
A diligent search miht be claimed to be of places it was likely to be fond. She would have expected none but if there was would have expected to be obvious. (Trump organization businesss records)
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:24 pm20 Yugoslavia was officially non-aligned, and te Soviet bloc did not exist by the time Trump met Melania. Still, there is maybe something in common here that he liked.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:28 pm73. whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:22 pm
He can declassify anything, but not even Trump wanted to declassify anything wholesale (he might be criticized)
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:30 pmhttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/29/opinion/student-loans-biden-trump.html
Bret Stephens thinks that Trump saw an opportunity to set up a test of strength against Biden, but I think the problem for rump is that 1) he didn’t like that seizure of papers and 2) he did something wrong – maybe not really severely wrong since he wasn’t going to leak the information, but not on the up and up.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:38 pm25. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:46 am
If it’s classified for diplomatic and legal reasons. The fact that Trump had acknowledged that the United States was aiding some rebels in Syria did not remove the general right for the CIA not to acknowledge even and force them to be particular in their denial of FOIA requests.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:42 pmDoJ is not saying that it was – they are going on general principles. Also distrust of Trump.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:44 pmNo, it wasn’t. The grand jury subpoena was all about the documents Trump stole from the White House.
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:47 pmDept. of the Navy v. Egan, the Supreme Court case which mentions the President’s authority as Commander-in-Chief (@27), involved shortcutting the procedure for taking away someone’s security clearance. It takes a big stretch to make it the President as Henry VIII throwing a gnawed turkey leg over his shoulder and belching out “Yeah … urp … I’m declassifying that”.
And guess what else? It talks about the President’s authority to “classify”. “Declassify” is not mentioned at all. Quoting:
And never, never says:
nk (6633e4) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:51 pm20 “Yugoslavia was officially non-aligned, and te Soviet bloc did not exist by the time Trump met Melania. Still, there is maybe something in common here that he liked.”
Yes, there was: a distinct lack of body hair (e.g., back, face, arms and legs) and the swarthy complexions of Mediterranean peoples.
Colonel Haiku (4fec25) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:55 pmGotcha. You want to disown 85% of the party.
NJRob (34bfa4) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:03 pm@81 nk, then help me wrap my head around this please.
Dept. of Navy v. Egan,
This is where “Yeah … urp … I’m declassifying that” I’m pointing to.
This case was about some dude being denied a security clearance.
So, if POTUS can deny classification because of the:
Why does it NOT stand to reason that POTUS could…“Yeah … urp … I’m declassifying that”???
Furthermore, in Egan:
Hence, why, my earlier questions:
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:05 pma) Does the POTUS have plenary declassification power, as understood that all Article 2 powers flows from POTUS (Unitary Presidential Theory).
– or –
b) Must POTUS abide by classification regulations. (meaning Mike Davis is wrong)?
Furthermore, I think it’s far-far more likely that Trump could be in legal jeopardy on a generic “obstruction of justice” charges than anything else.
I’m sure we can all agree, that Trump’s lawyers aren’t the best of the best.
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:26 pmwhembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:05 pm
If Congress has provided otherwise, then no, POTUS does not have plenary declassification power.
If the declassification regulations are by an Act of Congress, then POTUS must abide by them.
Mares eat oats and does eat oat and little lambs eat ivies. Checks and balances and separation of powers. The President is Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces but Congress has these Article I powers:
Clause 14 is what concerns us. If a Rule is law, i.e. an Act of Congress, then the President’s plenary power under Article II is to faithfully execute it.
nk (ab5c3e) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:33 pmdoes eat oats too. Plural. Didn’t mean to put them on a diet.
nk (ab5c3e) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:37 pmDiligently! Even dressers! Where Melania keeps her unmentionables!
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 2:15 pm
It’s too bad Tony Sirico wasn’t available. He was alive and in Florida up until a few months ago.
(For those who aren’t Sopranos fans, Tony played a mobster who sniffed a woman’s panties while tossing her apartment.)
norcal (da5491) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:44 pm@86 nk
I’m not sure I 100% agree with you, but I do find it very compelling.
Thank you nk.
The reason why I’m dogged on this, is that I went deeeeeep into HRC’s email saga. At one point, was able to get to her outlook logon splash page as reported from TechDirt. (server wasn’t only for very long after that article lol).
She literally had TS/SAP documents attached emails from Obama under a pseudonym, that did NOT go through any formal declassification procedure and I understood back then was that: He’s POTUS, and he can purposely do that just fine. Those documents would be covered just fine. However, she had other classified information that where outside her Agency and thus had no rights to “handle” them on her email server.
What’s interesting, was that no one was really interested in chasing that down, but it was Obama. He (and HRC for that matter), had all the deference possible.
Just like I argued in recent posts, just because people did bad/illegal things in the past, doesn’t make it okay for someone today to do the same thing. (ie, Trump mishandling documents like HRC/Obama did).
So, if we’re going to draw the line in granite, and throw the books at Trump. When the next GOP administration takes over the executive branch, there better be support to throw the same books at a Democrat’s administration.
We, as a country, need to do more to ensure that there’s only one tier of justice, or there won’t be much of a country left.
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:45 pmAdditionally, all these Trump news is a distraction imo.
We need to focus on the current Biden administration and the midterms.
We also need to advocate for a not-Trump GOP candidate. Whether that’s DeSantis, Youngkin, Noem, or Haley. Grass-roots and establishments really, REALLY need to get their s h ! t in order and don’t give Trump an excuse to run again.
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:48 pmWaiting to see the support or denouncements these remarks deserve.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:54 pmWe also need to advocate for a not-Trump GOP candidate. Whether that’s DeSantis, Youngkin, Noem, or Haley. Grass-roots and establishments really, REALLY need to get their s h ! t in order and don’t give Trump an excuse to run again.
whembly (b770f8) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:48 pm
I couldn’t agree more, but I fear Trump will end up sabotaging (whether intentionally or not, and whether he runs or not) Republican chances, just like he did with the two Senate seats from Georgia.
norcal (da5491) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:54 pmWaiting to see the support or denouncements these remarks deserve.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:54 pm
She was wrong to categorically denounce MAGA Republicans.
Now, if she had said “MAGA Republicans who supported overturning the election”, she would be accurate.
norcal (da5491) — 8/31/2022 @ 3:57 pmnk @63 and @81
Audible laughs both times. You are one funny dude.
norcal (da5491) — 8/31/2022 @ 4:02 pmnorcal – I’d allow for repentance and so would change your phrase to “MAGA Republicans who support overturning the election”.
Anyone who supports overturning a free American election by violence is not a conservative. Period. (However much they claim to be on other grounds.)
Jim Miller (85fd03) — 8/31/2022 @ 4:07 pm@95 That’s a discerning point, Jim. Yes. I can see how some people could get caught up in the drama in late 2020 and early 2021. However, if they haven’t changed their minds on the issue since then, they deserve the criticism.
norcal (da5491) — 8/31/2022 @ 4:14 pmAllahpundit’s take:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 4:20 pmI’d allow for repentance and so would change your phrase to “MAGA Republicans who support overturning the election”.
I like what the lawyer for the Jan. 6 QAnon shaman called them.
nk (ab5c3e) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:00 pmMake it a triple, nk!
norcal (da5491) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:06 pmGoing forward, Trump seems like someone who cannot be trusted with classified information. I suspect that his followers see that as a plus.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:15 pmBut one way or the other, they have to LOCK HIM UP!
There is an alternative.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:16 pm– Does POTUS have plenary declassification power? If so, what does it really mean?
And how can we remove it.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:18 pmLook, Trump was given the opportunity to release those secret files that we all want to see:
* Who realy killed Kennedy.
* What the Roswell aliens really looked like.
* Nixon’s order to kill Hoffa
* FDR’s secret memo to let Pearl Harbor happen.
But no, what did he look for? Stuff about himself, NSA intercepts of his wife’s phone calls and, later, the “real” vote count.
What a waste of time and effort!
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:25 pmStuff about himself
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:25 pm
The answer to every Trump question
norcal (da5491) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:27 pmSarah Palin loses special election for Alaska House seat
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:40 pmI’m looking at Trump’s reaction to the DOJ filing and it’s long on hyperbole and short on substance, like pretty much anything else with Trump’s thumbprint. An example:
The “convoluted theory” is the Presidential Records Act, which established that presidential records belong to The People and not the ex-president.
Now that is convoluted. The NARA already established that Trump stole classified presidential records and, after repeated DOJ efforts to get the rest of them back, still had probable cause that he was not cooperating. And lawdy sho’ ’nuff, there were lots more stolen stolen documents from the FBI search. Their muddy argument about the three US Codes and the PRA is interesting in the sense that it intends to muddy, not clarify.
Interesting that their motion implies that Trump really did lose in 2020.
Who knew that a SCIF-less country club is a “secure setting”.
It goes on, and doesn’t get better.
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:48 pmDown goes Palin! Loses to ugly version of reservation Yellowstone chick.
urbanleftbehind (dbc81b) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:56 pmAlso, Trump’s filing didn’t allege that any documents were “planted”, and nowhere did Trump’s lawyers claim that the ex-president declassified any of the classified materials.
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 5:58 pmIt’s been widely known for decades that Trump can’t be trusted with anything. Why anyone would have thought classified information might be an exception is for them to explain.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 8/31/2022 @ 6:13 pmThese lemmings are going to follow Dementia Joe off a cliff.
Colonel Haiku (b6c78d) — 8/31/2022 @ 6:16 pmDemocrats thirst for the blood of the unborn. If they’re not grooming little children, they’re killing them.
A sad situation these losers find themselves in.
Colonel Haiku (b6c78d) — 8/31/2022 @ 6:21 pmThe Democrats proclaim their tolerance, then offer as evidence that they hate all the right people.
And you people are falling right in line. Good luck.
Colonel Haiku (b6c78d) — 8/31/2022 @ 6:24 pmThere’s a good thread here from Bradley Moss, and this part relates to the PRA.
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 6:27 pm@110 Because it’s either Dementia Joe or Con Man Trump?
False dichotomy.
norcal (da5491) — 8/31/2022 @ 6:36 pmTrump has standing. They searched his home and seized property from it. Whether he has a right to that property that is superior to the government’s is an issue for trial on the merits. And the burden of proof will be on the government and it will be higher than probable cause. Defense lawyers do not have a monopoly on convoluted theories to annoy the Court with.
nk (8213fd) — 8/31/2022 @ 6:49 pmIf the documents came from the White House, and if he never set any of them aside as personal records, I don’t see how he has any such ownership rights as they were never his to begin with.
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 7:09 pmWhy would Trumps people be accused of hiding or moving documents? Did they not find documents the whistleblower said were present?
Richard Wetmore (995a5b) — 8/31/2022 @ 7:27 pmRichard Wetmore (995a5b) — 8/31/2022 @ 7:27 pm
Stating that all of the documents have been submitted, when in fact they have not, is a form of hiding.
norcal (da5491) — 8/31/2022 @ 7:50 pmMs. Rangappa…
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 8/31/2022 @ 7:53 pmSarah palin loses congressional election in alaska to DEMOCRAT! The race was a test of wither alaskans were pro choce. They are. Showing again 80% of voters support choice.
asset (0b8a93) — 8/31/2022 @ 11:50 pmJust proved that ranked choice voting is a scam
NJRob (eb56c3) — 9/1/2022 @ 5:55 amHaiku:
Worthy of Pravda, comrade, or those Russian twitter handles frothing about denazification of the country they invaded. Always good to know whether I should make any effort in taking you seriously. And now I know.
Appalled (03f53c) — 9/1/2022 @ 6:12 amAnd here is some news for the anti-anti Trump crowd:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/aug/31/why-donald-trump-will-soon-be-indicted/
Note the writer and the website printing it.
Hopefully, the GOP decides now to firmly align itself to Trump’s cause, and lose. It’s the only cure that might purge the right of its slide towards sedition and anti-democratic leanings. I have no faith today’s GOP will give up its Orbanesque hopes simply because it violates the Constitution. But losing a bunch of ahould have been won elections might help it see the light.
Appalled (03f53c) — 9/1/2022 @ 6:22 am@121
I think there’s a place for RCV.
I would do it during the Primary, but use the current First Pass The Post (FPTP) for general elections.
The problems with RCV is asking the voters to come back to vote multiple times, and by the General election I doubt there’s going to be alot of appetite for that (thus depressing voter engagement).
whembly (b770f8) — 9/1/2022 @ 6:40 am12. The documents labeled 2A, (and described in the inventory as “various classified TS/SCI documents) might have come from that Banker’s Box that shows a framed TIME magazine cover in front that i on the floor to their right. It is partially empty in front. The docue-nents or document envelopes, are thinner.
Sammy Finkelman (418659) — 9/1/2022 @ 7:05 amYet you don’t dispute or disagree with a single wotd. Why is that?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 9/1/2022 @ 7:08 amRichard Wetmore (995a5b) — 8/31/2022 @ 7:27 pm
Because they all weren’t in the room where they initially said they ALL were, and because video probably shows some material being carried out of room (although there was lots of different things there)
There could be a contradiction between the way the Trump filing and the DoJ court filing describes the June 3 visit to the=e storage room
Sammy Finkelman (418659) — 9/1/2022 @ 7:11 am126 —
If you are going to accuse the Democrats of pedophilia and murder (how very Q), I feel no obligation to address the charges. They are self-evidently stupid and obnoxious. I expect you’d feel the same way if I accused the GOP of treason and child murder. (CH gets his stance from abortion and Drag Queen Story Hour. I would get mine from indifference to school shootings and the Stop the Steal fantasia)
Appalled (d248de) — 9/1/2022 @ 7:21 amIf ranked choice favors candidates who aren’t polarizing and divisive, maybe it’s not so bad.
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 9/1/2022 @ 7:21 amThe whole statement by Appalled clearly expresses disagreement. How did you miss that?
Radegunda (3d0587) — 9/1/2022 @ 7:28 amMoreover, Haiku’s statement is so obviously and egregiously false that it doesn’t need a point-by-point refutation.
If ranked choice favors candidates who aren’t polarizing and divisive, maybe it’s not so bad.
wyoming didn’t need it
JF (3315a4) — 9/1/2022 @ 8:25 amJust shows establishment Repubs demand that conservative Republicans and America First Republicans vote for their candidates, but when they lose primaries they refuse to return the favor. They would rather leftists get elected than pro-American candidates. Says a lot about them.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 9/1/2022 @ 8:45 amWhat the heck do you think the push about forcing little kids to question their own sexuality is about? What do you think the push to murder the unborn at any stage of development is about? Are you kidding or are you just deliberately obfuscating?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 9/1/2022 @ 8:47 am> What the heck do you think the push about forcing little kids to question their own sexuality is about?
A rounding error of nobody wants to “force little kids to question their own sexuality”. What the queer community wants is for those kids who *do* question their sexuality to be able to do so in a way that feels emotionally safe and which doesn’t put them through an extended period of either self-loathing because of their sexuality *or* emotional abuse from the other kids because of their sexuality.
Some percentage of kids are going to grow up to be gay, and some percentage of kids are going to grow up to be trans, and we want them to not go through hell in the process.
aphrael (4c4719) — 9/1/2022 @ 8:57 am> Just proved that ranked choice voting is a scam
The person you liked didn’t win, so the system is a scam? Come on, you’ve got to be better than this.
aphrael (4c4719) — 9/1/2022 @ 8:59 amSarah Palin has too much class for Alaska. Like a Corvette at a demolition derby.
And, yeah, a woman who not only kept and raised a Down’s Syndrome child and an exogamous grandchild but also dared to run against Obama, would not much appeal to baby-killers, Roe v. Wade or no Roe v. Wade.
nk (28689c) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:00 amStanding is not a trial issue. And technically, Trump is not the owner of MAL, it is the Trump Organization.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:02 amI don’t believe under RCV voters “come back to vote multiple times,” they vote once and rank the candidates in preference order.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:04 am> WHY photograph
photographing what you found in the search, while still on site, to provide visual evidence of what was there at the time (and defend yourself against allegations that things were added later), seems like it should be standard practice for a search.
> the formatting of TOP SECRET cover pages of any of the very government documents you’re so concerned about other people seeing
if you want the photograph as proof that the stuff was there where you say it was, and you are trying to protect the *contents* from disclosure, then surely photographing the cover pages is the best choice — it’s far better than photographing *the contents*.
> then publicize
I don’t know why it was included in the filing, or how unusual that is. That said, it seems like a reasonable inclusion *to demonstrate the evidence to the judge*.
aphrael (4c4719) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:05 amJust proved that ranked choice voting is a scam
It is a scam, but not the way you think. It allows people to posture with their votes, choosing that wild 2rd party candidate first, then choosing the lesser evil as they always were going to. If anything, it gets more people to the polls, but really doesn’t change who wins. Palin would have gotten far fewer 1st place votes without it.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:10 amGreat word, exagamous.
Paul Montagu (062b7e) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:12 amDoes anyone believe that Biden should be getting free prime TV time to rant against “MAGA Republicans”? How is this not political? That he puts his opposition “beyond the pale” is just a new form of partisanship. As much as I think the Trumpies are out of their minds, their quest is as political as any third party’s.
In the guise of defending democracy, Biden is attempting to delegitimatize his opposition. That’s at least as troubling as questioning the election results. That Biden is being given free, unrebutted airtime to do so simply indicates the bias of the major media.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:16 amSince you can download the cover sheets from the Internet, I don’t think they are classified.
See here under Classified Document Cover Sheets (US).
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:16 amPlease also note that the cover sheet example states “This cover sheet is unclassified.”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:19 amQuestion: Is a political movement that claims that the previous election was not fair or free “beyond the pale”? Given that the question is not justiciable, how would you go about redressing the problem if you thought the elections was unfair or unfree?
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:20 amStanding is not a trial issue.
Exactly. It only asks whether you have a legally-recognized stake in whatever the trial is about. A good example is the plaintiff from Hawaii who challenged Trump’s Muslim ban on the basis that it would prevent his mother-in-law in Iran from coming to visit.
And technically, Trump is not the owner of MAL, it is the Trump Organization.
Everybody take a note for possible future reference: A lawful tenant’s rights to the possession and the use and enjoyment of the tenanted premises are superior to, and exclusive of, [the rights of] the whole rest of the world including the landlord.
nk (28689c) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:43 amIt’s about peer pressurr and recruiting new members, period. There’s a reason the queer community was a rounding error till the last decade and it’s the full court press to destroy the young that’s doing it.
NJRob (4f3cc4) — 9/1/2022 @ 9:55 am> It’s about peer pressurr and recruiting new members, period
Oh, bull—-.
You realize that I am part of the queer community and that many of my closest friends are as well, right? None of us are interested in *recruitment*, and none of us are interested in pressuring people who aren’t queer into being queer — we’re interested in the kids who *are* queer not growing up hating themselves and internalizing hatred from people around them.
Most of us had to struggle against that culturally acquired self-loathing and we don’t want other people to suffer the way we did.
“Recruitment” is a ridiculous concept because it’s impossible — I can no more persuade a straight man to be gay than you can persuade me to be straight. This isn’t a thing except in the fevered hallucinations of people like you.
aphrael (63a822) — 9/1/2022 @ 11:39 amSure do aphrael and I’m sorry you feel like you need to justify the abhorrent nature of many leftists in trying to abuse impressionable children.
NJRob (4f3cc4) — 9/1/2022 @ 11:55 amI’m not trying to justify anything, let alone abusing children. I’m trying to call you out for falsehoods you are either knowingly or unknowingly spreading.
I am telling you from experience having talked to other queer people about this: what you are accusing the queer community of is simply not true. What you are saying is every bit as much a lie as it would be if I were to claim that you wanted gay people dead.
Please stop flinging lies about those with whom you disagree.
aphrael (4c4719) — 9/1/2022 @ 11:58 amBS aphrael. Just because you have anecodotal evidence with your peer group does not change the fact that there is a massive push to recruit and confuse young children.
The statistics on people who suddenly consider themselves homosexual, transgender or just idiotic show as much.
NJRob (4f3cc4) — 9/1/2022 @ 12:44 pmIndeed…
Christopher F. Rufo
@realchrisrufo
“SCOOP: Lurie Children’s Hospital of Chicago has created a partnership with local public school districts to promote radical gender theory, “kink,” “BDSM,” artificial penis “packers,” “trans masc pump[s],” and “trans-friendly [sex] toys” for children.
According to a whistleblower, gender activists at Lurie Children’s Hospital and school administrators in at least four Chicago-area public school systems–Districts 75, 120, 181, and 204–have circulated a training document titled “Beyond Binary: Gender in Schools.”
The training follows the basic narrative of academic queer theory: white, Western society has created an oppressive gender binary, falsely dividing the world into the categories of man and woman, that has resulted in “transphobia,” “cissexism,” and “systemic discrimination.”
The presentation encourages public schools to support “gender diversity” in their districts, automatically “affirm” students who announce sexual transitions, and disrupt the “entrenched norms in western society” in order to create to a more “gender creative” world. “
Colonel Haiku (8049f2) — 9/1/2022 @ 12:49 pmThe left and many on the right turning their back on God explains many of these corrupt acts, body mutiliations and deviant behaviors.
NJRob (4f3cc4) — 9/1/2022 @ 12:49 pm“ In a version of the presentation circulated to middle school and high school teachers and staff in District 75 and 120, Lurie Children’s Hospital promoted a “Binder Exchange Program” to assist teenage girls in binding their breasts.
Next, Lurie Children’s Hospital promoted a “kid friendly website for gender affirming gear,” which sells items such as artificial penis “packers,” female-to-male “trans masc pump[s],” and “stand to pee devices” for minors.
Next, Lurie Children’s Hospital promoted an “LGBTQ friendly sex shop for teens” that sells a range of “dildos,” “vibrators,” “harnesses,” “anal toys,” “trans-friendly toys,” and “kink & BDSM” equipment. The site includes graphic descriptions of sadomasochism and bondage.
Finally, Lurie Children’s Hospital published a school policy guide, encouraging districts to adopt a “gender-affirming approach” to the curriculum and to allow students sleep in bunks during overnight school trips in accordance with their “gender identity,” rather than their sex. “
https://t.co/whuMay6fpr
Colonel Haiku (8049f2) — 9/1/2022 @ 12:55 pm> BS aphrael. Just because you have anecodotal evidence with your peer group does not change the fact that there is a massive push to recruit and confuse young children.
Oh, f- off, NJRob.
A huge percentage of our community has suffered by being on the receiving end of attempts to make us be not-queer and not-gay. Such attempts failed but caused us real harm in the process. Nobody who has been through such a thing, or is in close community with such a thing, and who has any human decency at all, would want anyone else to go through it.
Consensus view in the queer community is that recruitment — making straight people gay or cis people trans — is impossible and harmful, just like trying to make gay people straight and trans people cis is.
You’re just disconnected enough from us to have no exposure to what people in our community think and feel, and are listening to other people who are equally disconnected.
> The statistics on people who suddenly consider themselves homosexual, transgender
These statistics can be explained by the fact that people who were trying really hard to force themselves into a box they didn’t fit in stopped doing so once it was no longer completely socially unacceptable to be outside of the box.
It’s quite similar to how the number of self-described left-handed people skyrocketed when the culture stopped trying to force people to be right-handed.
aphrael (4c4719) — 9/1/2022 @ 12:56 pmNonsense. It’s been 2% or less for all of civilization and suddenly 25% of people identify as something other than normal. That’s evil and corrupting influences on the future of our civilization.
Get some help.
NJRob (4f3cc4) — 9/1/2022 @ 1:01 pm“the numbers don’t match what i expect so there must be some malign actors out to cause harm.”
aphrael (4c4719) — 9/1/2022 @ 1:22 pmNo it isn’t. I have zero interest in listening to Biden’s partisan drivel, but those two things aren’t remotely equivalent. Rhetorically delegitimizing political opponents is Politics 101. Politicians have always done it and they always will. As obnoxious as it is, it poses no threat to our constitutional order. Conversely, for an ex-president nearly two years after he lost re-election to agitate his followers, many of whom have proven their affinity for political violence, with the lie that the election was stolen, and demand that either he be restored to office or there be a do-over election, is a direct attack on our constitutional system of governance.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 9/1/2022 @ 2:57 pmConversely, for an ex-president nearly two years after he lost re-election to agitate his followers, many of whom have proven their affinity for political violence, with the lie that the election was stolen…
Up to that point I have no issue with Trump. He is no more a lying SOB than the guy who says “Socialism is a good idea.”
The whole thing about being restored to power, or getting a do-over election is nonsense, of course, but how is it a threat? It’s not going to happen short of an actual revolution.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/1/2022 @ 3:09 pmNow, if Trump were to exhort his followers to overthrow the United States — which is what he would need to do to get his “new election” — well there are laws about that, too.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/1/2022 @ 3:10 pm@159. Whether something is a threat doesn’t depend on its likelihood of success. Trump is making facially unconstitutional demands, buttressed by lies he knows will agitate his cultish, violence-prone followers. Those demands can’t succeed without the Constitution having been overthrown.
What’s Biden doing? He’s saying MAGAs are terrible people. That’s very Trumpish of him. News flash: Biden sux. But is he demanding we throw Trump supporters in jail or take away their vote? No.
To avoid any possible confusion, I’m not saying Trump is making a “true threat” for First Amendment purposes. Who would even be the victim? I’m saying he’s making a frontal assault on the Constitution and the rule of law. Whether it’s ineffectual may alter the degree of the threat, but not its essential character.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 9/1/2022 @ 3:36 pmKevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/1/2022 @ 3:09 pm
He’s lying to his supporters. To keep them active.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/1/2022 @ 4:22 pmIf they are already sexually active.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/1/2022 @ 4:30 pmencouraging districts to adopt a “gender-affirming approach” to the curriculum and to allow students sleep in bunks during overnight school trips in accordance with their “gender identity,” rather than their sex. “
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/1/2022 @ 4:36 pm* especially if there is…
Everything is either forbidden or OK.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/1/2022 @ 4:38 pmTurning their back on what has been accepted as God’s instructions.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/1/2022 @ 4:40 pm16,
Have access to them.
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/2/2022 @ 1:57 pm