Patterico's Pontifications

3/15/2021

Arrests Made in Attack on Capitol Officer; No Murder Charges Filed (Yet?)

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



The #FAKENEWSBEZOSPOST has the story:

Federal authorities have arrested and charged two men with assaulting U.S. Capitol Police officer Brian D. Sicknick with bear spray during the Jan. 6 Capitol riot but have not determined whether the exposure caused his death.

Julian Elie Khater, 32, of Pennsylvania and George Pierre Tanios, 39 of Morgantown, W.Va., were arrested Sunday and are expected to appear in federal court Monday.

“Give me that bear s—,” Khater allegedly said to Tanios on video recorded at the Lower West Terrace of the Capitol at 2:14 p.m., where Sicknick and other officers were standing guard behind metal bicycle racks, arrest papers say.

About nine minutes later, after Khater said he had been hit with bear spray, Khater is seen on video discharging a canister into the face of Sicknick and two other officers, arrest papers allege.

The article makes clear that no autopsy report or toxicology report has been made available to the public, so there is still much we don’t know about Officer Sicknick’s death. Still, it would be quite a coinkidink for him to have suddenly dropped dead one day after being attacked with bear spray due to entirely unrelated causes.

88 Responses to “Arrests Made in Attack on Capitol Officer; No Murder Charges Filed (Yet?)”

  1. I see nothing online that says that bear spray is toxic. Assault charges are obvious, but murder? I guess if you blinded someone with it, and they later fell from a height, you might get felony murder but I don’t see a direct connection.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  2. I see nothing online that says that bear spray is toxic. Assault charges are obvious, but murder? I guess if you blinded someone with it, and they later fell from a height, you might get felony murder but I don’t see a direct connection.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/15/2021 @ 9:00 am

    That direct connection needs to be established. At this point it’s a coincidence that he died the day after the assault.

    Time123 (80b471)

  3. Is bear spray that much different than pepper spray or OC? Will this case affect other instances where police use of spray can or has caused death (if that is the case since the lab work for Sidenick is still under wraps)? If it has caused death, what happened to the police in those cases?

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  4. Bear spray is usually capsaicin.

    I’d rule out an allergic reaction to capsaicin, as it’d be really unusual for such a delayed reaction.

    I saw this report and did a quick research… and I don’t see any evidence that capsaicin can cause stroke or blood clot.

    So, unless we see more from the prosecution it seems a stretch at this point.

    whembly (849622)

  5. It is sheer speculation of the worst kind that the attack with a spray on Capitol Police Office Brian Sicknick killed him (if so, and if the same thing was used elsewhere, it didn’t affect anyone else markedly) but they are exercising prosecutorial discretion (and responding to political pressure) in charging the maximum that they can, probably based on the premise that somebody killed him. It started from the day he died. He was taken off life support after a day or two,

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  6. whembly (849622) — 3/15/2021 @ 9:54 am

    I’d rule out an allergic reaction to capsaicin, as it’d be really unusual for such a delayed reaction.

    I saw this report and did a quick research… and I don’t see any evidence that capsaicin can cause stroke or blood clot.

    So, unless we see more from the prosecution it seems a stretch at this point.

    They’re not being charged at all with causing his death. Just with assault, which happened.

    But at every point in the process where they have discretion, they’re treating this like they kiled him.

    His death could even be because of the riot – maybe somebody pushed him and he it his head on something solid – but they don’t have the right people if that’s the case.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  7. It’s a clear case of assaulting the officers though, so these defendent shouldn’t escape those charges.

    Make an example out of them.

    Then, please, apply it equally to any other riots across the nation. Officers were wounded/maimed/killed in the antifa/BLM riots last year.

    whembly (849622)

  8. No, they’re being treated as if they killed him but they can’t prove it.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  9. whembly (849622) — 3/15/2021 @ 10:23 am

    Sounds about right to me.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  10. Apparently, bear spray will stop a charging grizzly but I sure wouldn’t want to test that out. Still, better than a pistol which would just piss the bear off.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  11. It’s a clear case of assaulting the officers though, so these defendent shouldn’t escape those charges.

    Make an example out of them.

    Then, please, apply it equally to any other riots across the nation. Officers were wounded/maimed/killed in the antifa/BLM riots last year.

    whembly (849622) — 3/15/2021 @ 10:23 am

    Sounds good, and from what i know people who have been arrested for violent acts (as opposed to violating a curfew) have been charged.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  12. Patterico (or anyone else who knows),

    I apologize since this is completely off topic for this post, but …

    I read about the L.A. Superior Court judge who approved an order by the city of Burbank to cut off the electricity of a restaurant for defying an L.A. County Dept. of Health order. First, is this judgeship an elected office? If so, are such orders publicly accessible through internet searches and if so are the names of the judges included on such documents?

    I ask since in the past you have provided recommendation in some L.A. County judgeship elections, and such information is hard to come by.

    JoeH (f94276)

  13. Isn’t contributing to a death during the commission of a felony some level of murder?

    Angelo (9c3efa)

  14. it’s a coinkidink that the initial reporting was false and used breathlessly for political gain

    JF (3efb60)

  15. First, is [a Superior Court] judgeship an elected office?

    Yes. Although some are appointed to start, but they must face election soon thereafter.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  16. it’s a coinkidink that the initial reporting was false and used breathlessly for political gain

    JF (3efb60) — 3/15/2021 @ 11:23 am

    The Officer was violently attacked by Trump fans trying to stop the EC. He died a hero, protecting democracy from, frankly, the forces of darkness. I do not care what the press has to say about it. Say a prayer for Sicknick’s partners, friends, family, that they get some justice.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  17. Isn’t contributing to a death during the commission of a felony some level of murder?

    It’s possible to be charged with first-degree murder under the felony murder rule even if there’s no intent to kill. All that’s necessary is the participation in the commission of a felony, where a death occurs during that felony, even if the defendant wasn’t the one who killed the victim. Typical situations include:

    * Solo Actor: The felony murder rule is applicable in situations where a person commits a felony alone. The common example is arson. The defendant sets fire to a building with no intention of harming anyone, yet an unintended person dies in the fire (which could include firefighters).

    * Two or More Actors: Another common situation is an armed robbery where only one of the participants shoots the victim. In these cases, all of the participants in the robbery can be charged with felony murder, even though they didn’t kill the victim nor were even present at the time the killing took place.

    * Victim or Bystander Killing: It’s also possible that felony murder applies in cases where none of the felony participants killed anyone, such as when the victim or a third-party bystander kills someone while trying to stop the robbery. Felony murder in these cases would apply if a victim, a third-party, or even one of the felony perpetrators gets killed by someone other than a felony participant.

    https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/felony-murder.html

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  18. I was once on a voir dire panel where the defendant was charged with felony murder. He was charged with being part of a gang who had abducted some people and later killed them, even though he left the area where they were held before the killings took place. I wasn’t selected for the jury, so I don”t know more than that, but the prosecutor wanted to be sure that jurors would be OK with the concept.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  19. The Officer was violently attacked by Trump fans trying to stop the EC. He died a hero, protecting…

    More to the point, he was there because it was his duty to be there, not because of any political belief he might have held. He died a hero because he did his duty and it killed him. He may or may not have thought he was “defending democracy” — what he did know was that his duty was protecting the people inside the building and the priceless artifacts it contained.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. I just wish duty (and honor and country) were more important to people. When I look at our political elites and think about them risking their “lives, fortunes and sacred honor” I get ill and upset.

    They would never risk the first, are busy stuffing their pockets with the second, and have little to none of the last.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. it’s a coinkidink that the initial reporting was false and used breathlessly for political gain

    JF (3efb60) — 3/15/2021 @ 11:23 am

    The initial reporting was based on statements from the police department. If you’re upset with how the police have shared information about this you might want to check out https://blacklivesmatter.com/

    Seems like you and they share some thoughts at the moment.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  22. They are probably charging the minimum necessary for arrests. No doubt there will be a superseding set of charges.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  23. The FBI’s charging affidavit is here.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  24. Off-topic: Ooops.

    Correction: Two months after publication of this story, the Georgia secretary of state released an audio recording of President Donald Trump’s December phone call with the state’s top elections investigator. The recording revealed that The Post misquoted Trump’s comments on the call, based on information provided by a source. Trump did not tell the investigator to “find the fraud” or say she would be “a national hero” if she did so. Instead, Trump urged the investigator to scrutinize ballots in Fulton County, Ga., asserting she would find “dishonesty” there. He also told her that she had “the most important job in the country right now.” A story about the recording can be found here. The headline and text of this story have been corrected to remove quotes misattributed to Trump.

    Italics in original

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  25. Meanwhile…

    ‘the officer who shot and killed Ashli Babbitt during the U.S. Capitol siege will not face criminal charges…law enforcement officials said a preliminary investigation did not find enough evidence to charge the Capitol Police lieutenant. [Except, of course, for video of the shooting.] Babbitt [who served for more than a dozen years in the Air Force and Air National Guard and became a passionate supporter of former President Donald Trump, died from being shot by a Capitol Police was among the mob that stored the U.S. Capitol on Jan 6.] Babbitt, 35, was shot for trying to go through a broken window to enter the speaker’s lobby [an empty corridor], per The New York Times.’ -source yahoonews

    Do Royalist Officers still wear red coats these days?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  26. We were told by major news outlets that the officer had been beaten to death with a fire extinguisher by Trump supporters.

    DN (eb9ca3)

  27. Here’s how USA Today initially reported it.

    Police have not confirmed the circumstances of Sicknick’s death but said he “was injured while physically engaging with protesters” Wednesday. He returned to his division office and collapsed, and then was taken to a local hospital where he died around 9:30 p.m. Thursday. According to two law enforcement officials who spoke to the Associated Press, Sicknick was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher. No official cause of death has been released, and U.S. Capitol Police have said only that he died “due to injuries sustained while on-duty.”

    Here’s what CNN initially reported

    (CNN)The police officer who died after a mob of President Trump’s supporters invaded the US Capitol on Wednesday was a New Jersey native who had served in the National Guard. Capitol Police Officer Brian D. Sicknick died Thursday night “due to injuries sustained while on-duty,” Capitol Police said in a statement. He was one of five people who died in the violence. Sicknick was injured while physically engaging with the rioters and collapsed after returning to his division office, the statement said.

    Here’s details on the Trump supports who assaulted a police officer with a fire extinguisher. There are embeded videos of officers being beaten with Trump flags.

    The initial reporting was incorrect, but the story has been updated as new information is available. And the fact remains that Trump fans attacked the police in a effort disrupt the transfer of power.

    Time123 (306531)

  28. Meanwhile…

    ‘the officer who shot and killed Ashli Babbitt during the U.S. Capitol siege will not face criminal charges…law enforcement officials said a preliminary investigation did not find enough evidence to charge the Capitol Police lieutenant. [Except, of course, for video of the shooting.] Babbitt [who served for more than a dozen years in the Air Force and Air National Guard and became a passionate supporter of former President Donald Trump, died from being shot by a Capitol Police was among the mob that stored the U.S. Capitol on Jan 6.] Babbitt, 35, was shot for trying to go through a broken window to enter the speaker’s lobby [an empty corridor], per The New York Times.’ -source yahoonews

    Do Royalist Officers still wear red coats these days?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 3/15/2021 @ 11:58 am

    What are the elements off that shooting you feel make it unjustified?

    Time123 (306531)

  29. No, they’re being treated as if they killed him but they can’t prove it.

    If the rioters hadn’t rioted, Sicknick would be alive today. It wasn’t a coincidence that he collapsed at the station after coming off duty, and Trump-worshiping rioters were responsible for that, along with Trump for fomenting the riot.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  30. Regarding Tanios.

    Tipsters helped the FBI identify Khater and Tanios, who, according to the warrant, posted a photo of himself in the Capitol wearing a sweatshirt with the name of Sandwich University, his business in Morgantown. Tanios’s Instagram page identifies him as “George Pierre Tanios aka @thesandwichnazi.” He wore the same sweatshirt in his Facebook profile photo, the warrant notes. Tanios also uses the name “kingofthefatsandwich” in social media.

    The charitable take is that he was patterning himself after the character on Seinfeld.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  31. 29, Paul Montagu (77c694) — 3/15/2021 @ 1:54 pm

    If the rioters hadn’t rioted, Sicknick would be alive today. It wasn’t a coincidence that he collapsed at the station after coming off duty,

    We don’t know that, and have seen no medical evidence (which may possibly exist) to indicate that. It could indeed be a coincidence.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  32. And if it isn’t a coincidence, they probably have the wrong persons. Somewhere, maybe off camera, bit cameras were everywhere, somebody did something that caused a fatal injury, maybe just by knocking him off balance.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44)

  33. I predict this is one case where the defense will not stipulate to the medical examiner’s report.

    nk (1d9030)

  34. And if it isn’t a coincidence, they probably have the wrong persons.

    You don’t know that, Sammy. It’s easy to assign responsibility using Occam’s Razor, and I don’t believe in these kinds of coincidences.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  35. And if it isn’t a coincidence, they probably have the wrong persons. Somewhere, maybe off camera, bit cameras were everywhere, somebody did something that caused a fatal injury, maybe just by knocking him off balance.

    Sammy Finkelman (e5fb44) — 3/15/2021 @ 2:46 pm

    They are entitled to a fair trial. I hope the laws apply to them properly, the opposite of what they wanted to do with my vote and the elector count. It may not be possible to prove murder. Or maybe it is. We’ll have to wait and see. They did, however, commit a couple of life-changing felonies plain as day.

    Trump took the best part of their life and he doesn’t care at all.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  36. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/15/2021 @ 11:29 am

    Thanks

    JoeH (f94276)

  37. They can all be tried for felony murder for Ashli Babbitt’s death.

    nk (1d9030)

  38. oh hell yeah, nk. I like it.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  39. “Italics in original”

    The correction isn’t to the conversation that everyone in the right wing media sphere thinks it is.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  40. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/audio-shows-the-media-got-the-trump-georgia-story-all-wrong

    Shall we review how many people demanded Trump be impeached and arrested based on the intentionally fraudulent reporting on this phone call.

    Why do people keep pushing the Pravda media and their agenda?

    Davethulu, why don’t you tell us the how the media didn’t lie and the truth is really the same. I’d love to read all about it.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  41. “Shall we review how many people demanded Trump be impeached and arrested based on the intentionally fraudulent reporting on this phone call.”

    “All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have,” Trump said. “Because we won the state.”

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  42. “Davethulu, why don’t you tell us the how the media didn’t lie and the truth is really the same. I’d love to read all about it.”

    You can literally listen to Trump saying the above right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI2vMhFZCkE

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  43. Tell me, NJRob, are you ok with Trump calling a state election official and pressuring them to “find 11,780 votes”?

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  44. There is little, if any, difference in substance between the words originally attributed by the Washington Post and the words found on the recording (“fraud” vs. “dishonesty”; “hero” vs. “most important job in America”), is there?

    While not a verbatim quote, it seems like an entirely accurate paraphrase of President-Reject Trump attempting to entice a state official into his conspiracy to steal the election.

    Dave (1bb933)

  45. Davethulu,

    It’s dishonest of you to try and mix up 2 different calls. Why are you doing that?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  46. Dave never change.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  47. “It’s dishonest of you to try and mix up 2 different calls. Why are you doing that?”

    We have an hour long call that was originally released with a full recording, and a second, shorter call that it took a little while to get a verbatim transcript. In both calls, Trump is pressuring election officials to change the results of the election. Do you think the correction somehow exonerates Trump?

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  48. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/audio-shows-the-media-got-the-trump-georgia-story-all-wrong

    Shall we review how many people demanded Trump be impeached and arrested based on the intentionally fraudulent reporting on this phone call.

    Why do people keep pushing the Pravda media and their agenda?

    Davethulu, why don’t you tell us the how the media didn’t lie and the truth is really the same. I’d love to read all about it.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/15/2021 @ 9:52 pm

    This is a pretty bad screw up and I’m glad Wapo issued a full and unequivocal correction. I think they should out the source.

    However the previously released audio that I listened to directly reveled Trump asking the GA sec state to find him enough votes to turn the election, and pressuring the man through flattery and vague threats.

    When that didn’t work Trump encouraged his supporters to storm the capital and it now appears that his appointees withheld authorization to send in the national guard to restore order for several hours. A number of people died as a result off the assault.

    The press got a story wrong.

    The president tried to steal an election he lost fairly.

    I think both are a problem. What about you?

    Time123 (36651d)

  49. Reposting from wrong thread:

    Trump shoots the sheriff.
    Then he shoots the deputy.
    Trumpkins: “Why are you all saying that Trump shot the sheriff, when he shot the deputy?”

    That’s the Trumpland MO. Trump commits five crimes, Trumpkins point to (what they consider) the lesser offense and accuse the media of bias for reporting the most serious offense like it never happened.

    nk (1d9030)

  50. Was the Raffensperger telephone conference misreported too? Because that’s the one I knew about. I did not know about the “lead elections investigator” call squirrel until just now.

    nk (1d9030)

  51. NJRob,

    I knew Trump pressured a lot of officials, but the main call I knew details about was Raffensberger. I agree with Davethulu’s question.

    If Al Gore had pressured a florida election official to find 15,000 votes, what would you say? Come on.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  52. Very disappointing. I expect it from the left, but those who used to be Republicans should know better than to accept the lies the media spoon feeds them.

    And Trump did not tell anyone to storm the Capitol. Thats a falsehood Time123.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  53. NJRob, this is a complicated issue where you’re focused on one thing, we’re focused on several other things.

    But seriously, if a tape came out today and Al Gore had been demanding some Orlando election judge “find 15,000 votes” what would you think of that?

    It can’t be ignored that Trump did not live up to presidential standards. There’s a reason so many nevertrumpers accept the media’s (often exaggerated) claims about Trump. We except him to live down to his own standards. The media and education in our country is largely to blame. They have given us no reason to trust them, making it easier for a man like Trump to blend in. 2016 is a clear memory.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  54. Very disappointing. I expect it from the left, but those who used to be Republicans should know better than to accept the lies the media spoon feeds them.

    And Trump did not tell anyone to storm the Capitol. Thats a falsehood Time123.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/16/2021 @ 7:16 am

    I said he encouraged his supporters to storm the capital.

    He talked consistently about the need to fight, the need to be be strong and lied about how the dem’s were stealing the election with fraud. He closed with this.

    So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. I love Pennsylvania Avenue. And we’re going to the Capitol, and we’re going to try and give.

    The Democrats are hopeless, they never vote for anything. Not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones because the strong ones don’t need any of our help. We’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.

    So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

    Looks like encouragement to me.

    After that his appointees refused to authorize the national guard to help restore order for a couple of hours.

    Time123 (36651d)

  55. NJRob, this is a complicated issue where you’re focused on one thing, we’re focused on several other things.

    But seriously, if a tape came out today and Al Gore had been demanding some Orlando election judge “find 15,000 votes” what would you think of that?

    It can’t be ignored that Trump did not live up to presidential standards. There’s a reason so many nevertrumpers accept the media’s (often exaggerated) claims about Trump. We except him to live down to his own standards. The media and education in our country is largely to blame. They have given us no reason to trust them, making it easier for a man like Trump to blend in. 2016 is a clear memory.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 3/16/2021 @ 7:23 am

    He’s not going to address that point.

    Time123 (36651d)

  56. The “deadly attack” resulted in no police deaths on 6 January.

    Two police officers died of Epstein’s Disorder in the days following. These tragic deaths are not getting a whole lot of news coverage for some reason. Jeffrey Smith and Howard Liebengood. Last time I checked the Capitol Police administration had not yet agreed with the news media or the police officers’ labor union that these unusual fatalities were occasioned “in the line of duty”.

    None of those arrested have have been served the customary “aggravated circumstances” charges associated with commission of a crime while in possession of a firearm.

    There is a great deal of unusual not-news about the “deadly attack” and “armed insurrection” that has been headlined.

    pouncer (6c33cf)

  57. I remember the 2016 Trump selling points:

    1. He was a self-made billionaire who would not use the Office to enrich himself because he did not need to; and

    2. He would always be under constant suspicious scrutiny, so he would never dare to abuse the power of the Office.

    We were fools! Fools!

    nk (1d9030)

  58. The “deadly attack” resulted in no police deaths on 6 January.

    Two police officers died of Epstein’s Disorder in the days following. These tragic deaths are not getting a whole lot of news coverage for some reason. Jeffrey Smith and Howard Liebengood. Last time I checked the Capitol Police administration had not yet agreed with the news media or the police officers’ labor union that these unusual fatalities were occasioned “in the line of duty”.

    None of those arrested have have been served the customary “aggravated circumstances” charges associated with commission of a crime while in possession of a firearm.

    There is a great deal of unusual not-news about the “deadly attack” and “armed insurrection” that has been headlined.

    pouncer (6c33cf) — 3/16/2021 @ 7:50 am

    I too am glad that a terrorist attack on congress wasn’t as deadly as it could have been.

    Time123 (36651d)

  59. https://www.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/03/politics/trump-brad-raffensperger-phone-call-transcript/index.html

    The notion that Trump wanted Georgia officials to create votes so he could steal the win is absurd. It is clear from the entire audio and from the entire transcript that Trump had a list of votes that he believed, through auditors and investigators, were cast illegally and that Trump was requesting that Georgia officials look into those votes. He suggested that there were many times the 11,000 votes that were cast illegally and that if the officials took their job seriously they would “find” at least the margin of victory within those illegally cast votes.

    BuDuh (ce43f6)

  60. It’s a squirrel remark so there’s no reason to address it. Gore tried to rig the election by only counting leftist strongholds. It took the Supreme Court to shut it down.

    Trump clearly believes there was fraud in Georgia. He stated that if they look they will find it. That’s not remotely what the left claims when they try to rig elections here and throughout the world. They believe Venezuela is a fair vote. That tells you their goals.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  61. Two police officers died of Epstein’s Disorder in the days following.

    I don’t know what Epstein’s Disorder is, but I do know blame-shifting, such as putting “deadly attack” in scare quotes. There is no firearms requirement for an insurrection to be an insurrection (and in that vein, f-ck you Ron Johnson), though I’m sure that a number of the domestic terrorists there were armed.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  62. And Dustin,

    perhaps you’ll remember that to this day the left claims that Bush was “selected” not “elected.”

    These are the people you’re coming to common cause with.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  63. It’s a squirrel remark so there’s no reason to address it. Gore tried to rig the election by only counting leftist strongholds. It took the Supreme Court to shut it down.

    Trump clearly believes there was fraud in Georgia. He stated that if they look they will find it. That’s not remotely what the left claims when they try to rig elections here and throughout the world. They believe Venezuela is a fair vote. That tells you their goals.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/16/2021 @ 8:25 am

    I think it’s less of a squirrel comment and more of a plea for empathy. What elections are you asserting that the left has rigged here?

    Regarding what Trump believes; in numerous occasions he’s made claims of election fraud that are completely false, and easily checked. (e.g. that there were more votes then voters in some areas). When someone starts telling obvious lies it’s reasonable to question if they’re actually lying for effect.

    I doubt you and I are ever going to agree on what Trump meant and it’s not possible to establish with 100% certainty. But I’d be willing to accept what jury finds if it ever comes to that.

    Time123 (36651d)

  64. I don’t know what Epstein’s Disorder is

    He meant they hanged themselves, like Jeffrey Epstein is alleged to have done. Trump-humpers! What’re you gonna do?

    There is a rare genetic disorder called Epstein Syndrome which has nothing at all to do with anything.

    nk (1d9030)

  65. It’s a squirrel remark so there’s no reason to address it. Gore tried to rig the election by only counting leftist strongholds. It took the Supreme Court to shut it down.

    Trump clearly believes there was fraud in Georgia. He stated that if they look they will find it. That’s not remotely what the left claims when they try to rig elections here and throughout the world. They believe Venezuela is a fair vote. That tells you their goals.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/16/2021 @ 8:25 am

    No it really isn’t.

    Trump’s actual incriminating phone call is the one where he demanded an election official find a specific number of votes. This phone call was leaked and took a lot of the energy out of the ‘stop the steal’ 1/6 attack. at the time, a lot of people really thought that the democrats were rigging the election, but after the phone call, even Trump’s fans realized Trump was trying to rig the election. Some of them are Ok with that because ‘he fights’ and indeed the 1/6 attack still happened, but thank God that phone call got out.

    you’re dismissing this issue as a “squirrel” while insisting all that matters is how the Post characterized a different phone call (that still makes Trump look bad, but not with the quotes they used).

    This is misguided and if it weren’t Trump… if Jeb Bush or Al Gore or Hillary were the person demanding an election official “find 12,000 votes” you would definitely disapprove of those saying this issue is a distraction. But for Trump, you actually tell us it’s a distraction.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  66. And Dustin,

    perhaps you’ll remember that to this day the left claims that Bush was “selected” not “elected.”

    These are the people you’re coming to common cause with.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/16/2021 @ 8:33 am

    Common cause insofar as I’m glad Trump lost, sure, and indeed I tell them they are wrong all day long and they freak out and call me a Trump fanatic. It’s funny… I see those guys as basically the same as Trump’s remaining defenders… you see me as the same as those guys. I just call them like I see them, totally free of loyalty to any stupid politician. It’s better my way.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  67. And Dustin,

    perhaps you’ll remember that to this day the left claims that Bush was “selected” not “elected.”

    These are the people you’re coming to common cause with.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/16/2021 @ 8:33 am

    Common cause insofar as I’m glad Trump lost, sure, and indeed I tell them they are wrong all day long and they freak out and call me a Trump fanatic. It’s funny… I see those guys as basically the same as Trump’s remaining defenders… you see me as the same as those guys. I just call them like I see them, totally free of loyalty to any stupid politician. It’s better my way.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 3/16/2021 @ 8:56 am

    Dogs are awesome and a love mine. The fact that bad people also like dogs doesn’t mean I agree with them about the stuff that makes them bad people.

    Time123 (36651d)

  68. Common cause insofar as I’m glad Trump lost, sure, and indeed I tell them they are wrong all day long and they freak out and call me a Trump fanatic. It’s funny… I see those guys as basically the same as Trump’s remaining defenders… you see me as the same as those guys. I just call them like I see them, totally free of loyalty to any stupid politician. It’s better my way.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 3/16/2021 @ 8:56 am

    Good. Now perhaps you’ll be willing to give the same grudging respect to those who align with the former President and other conservatives instead of trying to tar them all the time. It’s possible to support issues without supporting all that a person is. I’m glad you agree.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  69. NJRob, regarding common cause, I had a thought.

    Donald Trump said George Bush was the worst president in American history and Hillary was the best Secretary of State we ever had. You’re complaining I have common cause with people who didn’t like Bush being elected, but this is one of those arguments that Trump supporters refuse to apply to Trump.

    Imagine if I told you I donated to Pelosi, Hillary, and Schumer. You’d say that proves I am not a trustworthy friend to the GOP. But when Trump does that, it’s ok because … honestly I never understood why that was Ok.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  70. instead of trying to tar them all the time.

    I do believe donald trump deserves literal tar and feathers for demanding an election official find a specific number of votes to flip the election outcome. I am eager to see him prosecuted.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  71. Babbitt, 35, was shot for trying to go through a broken window to enter the speaker’s lobby [an empty corridor], per The New York Times.’

    If you had been watching the impeachment trial, you’d know that this corridor was part of the “secured path” that was set up for members of Congress to use to escape the mob. I can very well believe that the officer was told that “the mob does not come through this door!” And they didn’t.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  72. It’s easy to assign responsibility using Occam’s Razor, and I don’t believe in these kinds of coincidences.

    Both poor arguments in a courtroom. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a falacy so old its name is in Latin.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  73. They can all be tried for felony murder for Ashli Babbitt’s death.

    I very much doubt that. Perhaps the people in that same corridor with Babbitt, but there has to be some connection; collective punishment is probably not constitutional. To begin with, most of the people there did not commit felonies.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  74. I think all of them committed felonies if they entered the capitol to interfere with the “steal” AKA the counting of the electors.

    not that this will happen. But it would be awesome.

    The bottom line is that these traitors went there for a civil war. They walked away. It is amusing how many are being caught easily. I look forward to Trump running for office from prison, perhaps winning from prison, to create more ridiculous cases and issues as the simulation we’re living in apparently is glitching.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  75. And Trump did not tell anyone to storm the Capitol

    “Oh yeah, a buffer. The family had a lot of buffers!”

    — Willi Cici, Godfather Part II

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  76. I think all of them committed felonies if they entered the capitol to interfere with the “steal” AKA the counting of the electors.

    It used to be a “felony” was a capital crime. The term has been debased to now it’s more like a fourth speeding ticket in a year.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  77. These are the people you’re coming to common cause with.

    There are people in the GOP who I’ve made common cause with that fail to make me proud of that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. Both poor arguments in a courtroom.

    True, Kevin, but I was assigning political responsibility, not criminal. We’ll see if Trump will ever be held criminally responsible for inciting the insurrection and, without knowing what’s in the autopsy, it’s hard to say whether the pair will be charged for more than assault. Nevertheless, I still say they’re to blame for Sicknick being dead, and it should rest on their consciences for the rest of their lives.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  79. 70. Dustin (4237e0) — 3/16/2021 @ 9:48 am

    I do believe donald trump deserves literal tar and feathers for demanding an election official find a specific number of votes to flip the election outcome.

    Initially, the Washington Post claimed he told Raffensperger to “find the fraud” Then the transcript was released. He actually said “find 11,780 votes”

    Now he actually meant votes that he claimed had been fraudulently cast for Biden (not extra votes for himself.)

    So “find the fraud” gets closer to what he meant, except he wasn’t acknowledging in any way that there was no real fraud to find. He was telling him several ways in which it had supposedly happened.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/03/us/politics/trump-raffensperger-georgia-call-transcript.html

    ….But in Fulton, where they dumped ballots, you will find that you have many that aren’t even signed, and you have many that are forgeries. OK, you know that. You know that. You have no doubt about that. And you will find, you will be at 11,779 within minutes, because Fulton County is totally corrupt, and so is she, totally corrupt…. [‘she’ = Stacey Abrams]

    All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state….

    ….But, but you have to go back to check from past years with respect to signatures. And if you check with Fulton County, you’ll have hundreds of thousands because they dumped ballots into Fulton County and the other county next to it.

    So what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break. You know, we have that in spades already. Or we can keep it going, but that’s not fair to the voters of Georgia, because they’re going to see what happened, and they’re going to see what happened….

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  80. It used to be a “felony” was a capital crime. The term has been debased to now it’s more like a fourth speeding ticket in a year.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2021 @ 10:16 am

    Yeah I get that there are too many federal crimes, but come on. They stormed the capitol to stop congress’s work. I’m glad it’s on record how serious this is. I don’t think the feds have any choice but to make lots of examples, so the next time the GOP loses an election people remember all the lives Hawley, Cruz, and Trump ruined on 1/6.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  81. Now he actually meant votes that he claimed had been fraudulently cast for Biden (not extra votes for himself.)

    I listened to it and don’t think this is what he meant.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  82. These are the people you’re coming to common cause with.

    There are people in the GOP who I’ve made common cause with that fail to make me proud of that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2021 @ 10:21 am

    It’s the tough on crime mentality. Everything get’s ratcheted up to be harsher and harsher so that elected officials have something to claim in adds. Actual results may vary.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  83. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 3/16/2021 @ 11:01 am

    . Nevertheless, I still say they’re to blame for Sicknick being dead, and it should rest on their consciences for the rest of their lives.

    I am not sure they have a conscience.

    They were plotting for some time. They wanted to get others involved. The two arrested knew each other from school when they were growing up in New Brunswick, New Jersey. They now both are involved in the restaurant business, in different states. The one who owns a restaurant in Morgantown, West Virginia, previously embezzled $435,000 from his partners in a previous business, according to the partners.

    They have them on video actually spraying the chemical onto several police officers, one by one, including Brian Sicknick (which severely disabled him for at least twenty minutes) and they also have them just before when one says to the other to give him the bear (spray) and the other says it’s too early (allowing you to deduce that they plotted it before the speech, as if you wouldn’t know that from the simple fact they were carrying it with them) and the first one gives a reason why he needs it now. (he’s already been sprayed)

    There seems to be some trouble with the chronology. It’s unclear whether Sicknick was taken to the hospital that day or the next day.

    The New York Times has this today:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/15/us/politics/brian-sicknick-death-arrests.html

    In a video of the attack, Mr. Khater said, “Give me that,” and then reached into Mr. Tanios’s backpack, the F.B.I. said. Mr. Tanios protested that it was too early, apparently to attack the officers with the spray. Mr. Khater countered that he had just been sprayed and held up the can of chemical spray.

    At 2:23 p.m., as other rioters began to pull away a barrier between them and the Capitol, Mr. Khater aimed his spray can toward officers, the F.B.I. said, citing video footage including a body camera worn by an officer from Washington’s Metropolitan Police Department. The officers reacted “one by one, to something striking them in the face,” the F.B.I. said. “The officers immediately retreat from the line, bring their hands to their faces and rush to find water to wash out their eyes.”

    They were unable to defend the Capitol for at least 20 minutes while they recovered, video showed, according to the F.B.I. Two other officers who were assaulted “described the spray to their face as a substance as strong as, if not stronger than, any version of pepper spray they had been exposed to during their training as law enforcement officers,” the F.B.I. said, and one said she had scabs on her face for weeks.

    Officer Sicknick was later [the NYT finesses the issue of how much later] rushed to a hospital, where he died. Investigators opened a homicide investigation immediately after the death of the officer, a 42-year-old Air National Guard veteran who served in Saudi Arabia and Kyrgyzstan…

    …It remains unclear whether Officer Sicknick died because of his exposure to the spray. On Jan. 7, the day that he died, the Capitol Police said in a statement that he “was injured while physically engaging with protesters” at the riot and then “returned to his division office and collapsed.”

    In the hours after Officer Sicknick was taken to the hospital, Capitol Police officials initially said that he had been struck with a fire extinguisher, but later said that his death was not caused by blunt force trauma. In the following days, investigators homed in on the potential role of an irritant as a primary factor in his death….

    The Wall Street Journal has:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/two-men-charged-in-assault-on-officer-brian-sicknick-during-capitol-riot-11615824223

    …Federal prosecutors have charged two men with assaulting Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick with a chemical during the Jan. 6 Capitol riot, according to a court document unsealed Monday, which didn’t describe whether the alleged assault contributed to the officer’s death….

    …Mr. Sicknick was transported to a hospital, where he died the day after the riot. The District of Columbia medical examiner’s office hasn’t released information about Mr. Sicknick’s cause of death, sparking questions from lawmakers and others about what happened…

    …The two men face charges of conspiring to injure an officer, assaulting a federal officer with a dangerous weapon, civil disorder, obstructing an official proceeding, and engaging in physical violence on restricted grounds while carrying a dangerous weapon that resulted in significant bodily injury, among other counts. Some of those carry the potential for lengthy prison sentences, with maximum terms of 20 years….Messrs. Khater and Tanios worked together on Jan. 6 to spray officers directly in their faces and eyes to coincide with other rioters’ efforts to forcibly remove bike-rack barriers to get closer to the Capitol, the affidavit said….

    Some law-enforcement officials said shortly after the riot that they believed Mr. Sicknick had suffered blunt-force trauma from being struck in the head during the attack, based on reports from officers on the scene, but other officials have since disputed that account. Other officers were also hit with fire extinguishers and other objects.

    In testimony before a Senate panel earlier this month, FBI Director Christopher Wray declined to comment when asked by Sen. Chuck Grassley (R, Iowa) about the cause of Mr. Sicknick’s death, citing the continuing investigation.

    In a statement, the acting chief of the Capitol Police, Yogananda Pittman, said that Mr. Sicknick was “injured while protecting Congress during the riot at the U.S. Capitol” and that he “succumbed to his injuries” after being taken to the hospital, but didn’t explain how the officer died.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  84. Now he actually meant votes that he claimed had been fraudulently cast for Biden (not extra votes for himself.)

    Time123 (52fb0e) — 3/16/2021 @ 11:09 am

    I listened to it and don’t think this is what he meant.

    Trump spoke somewhat inarticulately, but he’s talking about ballots that weren’t signed or were forgeries. Clearly, he wants to subtract votes, not add them.

    He also talked about supposedly shredded ballots, but he couldn’t expect anyone to find them and piece them together. What that’s supposed to be about I am not clear – counted ballots or uncounted one?

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  85. I think it was one act of spraying but Julian Khater (the poorer one) was moving the canister.

    I think they don’t even know yet, or are not prepared to say yet, what exactly it was, but it was worse than the pepper spray police departments use and left scars. The video of that assault comes from the body camera of one police officer. They needed other video to identify them.

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  86. Trump spoke somewhat inarticulately,

    I found him crystal clear actually. I heard him plainly state his demand for the secretary to find exactly a certain number of votes that would reverse the election outcome. This was no hunt for whatever the truth may be. This was a demand for a specific outcome, one that stole an election. Yes, Trump is a gasbag and yammered a lot about consequences to the secretary, about what a victim Trump is, about how other states are going to reverse outcomes. But that’s just lying and puffery.

    Thank God that recording got out. 1/6 was bad, but it would have been much worse. Once it became blatantly clear that Trump was hustling a reversed election, his efforts failed just like that.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  87. Dustin (4237e0) — 3/16/2021 @ 12:27 pm

    I found him crystal clear actually.

    He wanted Raffensperger to discard votes, yet he used the word “find” which means more often to add.

    I heard him plainly state his demand for the secretary to find exactly a certain number of votes that would reverse the election outcome. This was no hunt for whatever the truth may be.

    Trump claimed that the truth was he won by hundreds of thousands of votes, but he wasn’t asking for a correct figure but just enough to reverse the results.

    ….But, but we, we only lost the state by 11 thous — by, by that number, 11,000 votes and 779. So with that being said, with just what we have. And, you know, with just what we have, we’re giving you minimum, minimum numbers, we’re doing the most conservative numbers possible. We’re many times, many, many times above the, the margin. And so we don’t really have to, Mark — I don’t think we have to go through the machines because, because what’s the difference between winning the election by two, two votes and winning it by half a million votes? I think I probably did win it by half a mill — I mean, you know, one of the things that happened, Brad, is we have other people coming in now from Alabama and from South Carolina and from other states, and they’re saying, ‘It’s impossible for you to have lost Georgia.’ We won. You know, in Alabama, we set a record, got the highest vote ever. In Georgia, we set a record with a massive amount of votes. And they say, ‘It’s not possible to have lost Georgia.’

    Because, I suppose, upsets never happen in politics. (although polls did indicate it was possible) Sabato raed Trump’s chances better in Georgia than in Florida.

    And he claimed it would be easy for Raffensperger to find 11,000 votes (to disqualify) and that he wouldn’t embarrass himself.

    Raffensperger and his colleagues kept telling Trump his facts were wrong, but Trump wouldn’t let go.

    TRUMP: ….Now, do you think it’s possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? Because that’s what the rumor is. And also that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their, uh, machinery.

    Do you know anything about that? Because that’s illegal, right?

    GERMANY: This is Ryan Germany. No, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County.

    TRUMP: But have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?

    GERMANY: No.

    TRUMP: Are you sure, Ryan?

    GERMANY: I’m sure. I’m sure, Mr. President.

    TRUMP: What about, what about the, what about the ballots. The shredding of the ballots. Have they been shredding ballots?

    GERMANY: The only investigation that we have into that — they have not been shredding any ballots. There was an issue in Cobb County where they were doing normal office shredding, getting rid of old stuff, and we investigated that. But this stuff from, you know, from, you know, past elections.

    TRUMP: It doesn’t pass the smell test, because we hear they’re shredding thousands and thousands of ballots, and now what they’re saying, ‘Oh, we’re just cleaning up the office.’ Yeah.

    RAFFENSPERGER: Mr. President, the problem you have with social media, they — people can say anything.

    TRUMP: Oh, this isn’t social media. This is Trump media. It’s not social media. It’s really not, it’s not social media. I don’t care about social media. I couldn’t care less. Social media is Big Tech. Big Tech is on your side, you know. I don’t even know why you have a side, because you should want to have an accurate election. And you’re a Republican.

    RAFFENSPERGER: We believe that we do have an accurate election.

    TRUMP: No, no you don’t. No, no you don’t. You don’t have, you don’t have. Not even close. You’re off by hundreds of thousands of votes….

    Sammy Finkelman (ff268d)

  88. Very interesting information!Perfect just what I was searching for! “If you bungle raising your children, I don’t think whatever else you do matters.” by Jacqueline Lee Bouvier Kennedy Onassis.

    modern digital (947452)


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