Phase 3 Of Covid-19 Vaccine Testing Begins Today
[guest post by Dana]
Phase 3 of an experimental COVID-19 vaccine begins today in the U.S. According to Dr. Stephen Hoge, president of Massachusetts-based Moderna, they are “optimistic, cautiously optimistic” that the vaccine will work and that the data will eventually prove it:
The biggest test yet of an experimental COVID-19 vaccine got underway Monday with the first of some 30,000 Americans rolling up their sleeves to receive shots created by the U.S. government as part of the all-out global race to stop the outbreak.
Final-stage testing of the vaccine, developed by the National Institutes of Health and Moderna Inc., began with volunteers at various U.S. sites given either a real shot or a dummy without being told which.
It will be months before results trickle in, and there is no guarantee the vaccine will ultimately work against the scourge that has killed about 650,000 people around the world, including almost 150,000 in the U.S.
…
After two doses, scientists will closely track which participants — those getting real shots, or a dummy — experience more infections as they go about their daily routines, especially in hard-hit areas where the virus still is spreading. Testing is planned at close to 90 sites, officials said.
From a test volunteer’s perspective:
In Binghamton, New York, nurse Melissa Harting received one of the first injections of the Moderna vaccine candidate. saying she was volunteering “to do my part to help out.”
“I’m excited,” Harting said. Especially with family members in front-line jobs that could expose them to the virus, she said, “doing our part to eradicate it is very important to me.”
But because a Covid-19 vaccine may go online in a comparatively short period of time (compared to the standard amount of time), there are reasons to be concerned:
The end of this global pandemic almost certainly rests with a vaccine. Experts caution, however, that it’s important to have realistic expectations about how much the first vaccines across the finish line will — and won’t — be able to accomplish.
…
First-generation vaccines often aren’t the ones that stop a new virus in its tracks, and experts’ hopes for an initial coronavirus vaccine are much more modest.
“Right now, we just need something that’s going to mitigate the damage this virus causes,” said Amesh Adalja, an infectious-diseases expert at Johns Hopkins University. “Maybe it doesn’t prevent you from getting infected, but it prevents you from getting hospitalized, or prevents you from dying … that would be huge.”
Questions remain about just how a Covid vaccine might work:
Some vaccines, like the one for measles, mumps and rubella, produce near-complete and long-lasting immunity. Others, like the annual flu shot, are important tools to help contain a virus but don’t achieve “sterilizing immunity.”
It’s not yet known how much protection any of the potential coronavirus vaccines might provide, or how long it would last.
“It’s hard to make vaccines against coronaviruses,” said Mark Poznansky, an infectious-disease specialist at Massachusetts General Hospital. “It doesn’t mean its not possible but it is a challenge, especially with COVID-19, where we don’t yet understand the inflammatory response to the virus and what part of the immune response is critical to prevent infection.”
While the initial evidence for COVID-19 vaccines seems promising, second- and even third-generation products will likely target more of the virus and, hopefully, generate stronger and longer-lasting immunity than the first few vaccines will offer, Poznansky said.
And of course, there are a number of questions that will be factored in when deciding who will receive a Covid-19 vaccine first, says Paul Kelleher, a professor of bioethics and philosophy at UW-Madison:
A pretty standard principle when it comes to healthcare resources is the goal of saving as many lives as possible, Kelleher says — or, when we’re thinking about a preemptive vaccine, really preventing as many deaths as possible. This utilitarian perspective aims to create the greatest benefit for the greatest number of people.
Even though this principle is a commonly used one in a public health crisis, “it’s somewhat foreign or unfamiliar for many healthcare professionals, whose main goal on a day-to-day basis in normal times is to do the best for the patient that’s in front of them,” Kelleher says. Sometimes tied to this is the concept that we should preserve those who are most essential to keeping society — and especially health infrastructure — running, because that will in turn keep more people safe.
Another idea in bioethics is the “life cycle” or “fair innings” principle, which argues that everyone should have an equal chance to live through life’s various stages, Kelleher adds. In the case of a pandemic, this would mean we should prioritize protecting young people over elderly people who have already had the chance to move through these stages.
Complicating questions abound: Should we focus on the people who are more likely to recover — like doctors in Italy, who were told to help those with the “greatest life expectancy” as hospitals were overrun and resources spread thin? Or is it our moral responsibility to protect the most vulnerable, following the principle of beneficence and the need to do good for others?
There’s also the argument of seeking out justice by prioritizing resources for those who have been treated unfairly in the past. Kelleher points out that throughout history, society has pushed some people into “social and environmental conditions that are hazardous to health,” making them more vulnerable in a health crisis like this one.
–Dana
While the question of who gets to go to the front of the line will need to be answered, we can be assured that not everyone is going to want to take the vaccine right out the gate. Most likely, a huge swath of the population will want to take a “wait and see” position before deciding to proceed with it. If they do so at all.
Dana (25e0dc) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:53 amI know a fair amount about the Moderna vaccine. I volunteered to be a test subject, but apparently was not accepted. I do not see how it can cause harm, especially as I carefully read the earlier stage results.
Simon Jester (8378a9) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:28 amSay what you will about the dangers of an untested, quickly developed vaccine, isn’t it amazing this has happened so fast?
Dustin (4237e0) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:49 amMaybe those pointy-headed intellectuals are good for something after all.
Dave (1bb933) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:58 amInteresting story from a small Italian isle:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-07-luck-genetics-italian-island-covid.html
harkin (42c195) — 7/27/2020 @ 12:15 pm_
It sounds like any side effects of current dosages would be temporal and limited:
But the reason this might be a limited reaction is because they have reduced the dosage:
Dana (25e0dc) — 7/27/2020 @ 12:38 pmI tried to volunteer too, but the UC administered arm was looking for folks under 50, so I missed it by that much. Meaning several dozen hundred days.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 7/27/2020 @ 12:55 pmCOVID-19 has killed more Americans than the rebels did during the Civil War
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 7/27/2020 @ 1:06 pmDespite the PR blitz, if you read the whole thing you will see that it is being done with typical bureaucratic procedures. There are multiple vaccines to be tested and they will be tested sequentially rather than in parallel, with one promising vaccine not being tested until October.
Further, if a vaccine is approved somewhere else, like the UK, but has not completed trials here and been evaluated by the same bureaucracy, it will be unavailable here until such testing is completed.
So, the answer to “who gets this first” is likely “not anyone in the USA.”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2020 @ 1:40 pmCOVID-19 has killed more Americans than the rebels did during the Civil War
The total US population was about 31 million in 1860. 360,222 US troops died, or 1.2% of the US population (counting the southern population, which isn’t actually fair). Using the 618,000 dead from both sides gives 2% of the population.
But wait, not only is this misleading, it’s also wrong. So far 144,000 American residents have died from Covid (and even less if you count “Americans” strictly).
So, Civil War: 2% dead. Covid: 0.05% of the population.
“Mostly false”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2020 @ 1:48 pmmr president donald has done more for the confederacy than anybody
with the possible exception of his predecessor jefferson davis
who never retweeted a white power video so its kind of a tossup really
Dave (1bb933) — 7/27/2020 @ 2:02 pmDrugmakers refuse to attend White House meeting after Trump issues executive orders on costs
A White House meeting with top pharmaceutical executives that President Donald Trump promised for Tuesday is off, five industry sources familiar with discussions told POLITICO. Three said the drug-pricing discussion was canceled because the major drug lobbies, reeling from Friday’s cluster of executive orders on the topic, refused to send any members.
Drugmakers and Trump were slated to discuss an executive order, signed Friday but not yet released, that would order health officials to release a plan linking Medicare payments for certain medicines to lower costs paid abroad…..
…..
Several pharmaceutical companies believed that the most-favored nations rule had been dropped ahead of the Friday afternoon announcement. The hours before Trump’s drug pricing event were a “chaotic” back-and-forth that even left some of his health officials surprised, sources told POLITICO Friday.
BIO, the lobby representing many small biotechnology companies developing therapies, has said that the most-favored-nations rule would hit its members the hardest. Many make the type of physician-administered medicines, such as expensive cancer and arthritis infusions, that would be affected.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 7/27/2020 @ 2:09 pm……
A PhRMA spokesperson painted the White House talks as a distraction. “The president’s plan to import policies from socialized health care systems abroad is disrupting our work [on Covid-19 therapies] and diverting our focus away from those life-saving efforts,” the spokesperson said. “We remain willing to discuss ways to lower costs for patients at the pharmacy counter. However, we remain steadfastly opposed to policies that would allow foreign governments to set prices for medicines in the United States.”
……
The favored nations rule has rankled conservative groups along with the industry and patient organizations. …….
You all think too much about this so-called vaccine. First of all, there is no vaccine; it’s all just a Gates funded, Fauci engineered hoax, designed to distract the President long enough for Mueller to put the finishing touches on the Deep State Coup. Second of all, if Trump supporters like Bill Mitchell on Twitter know what they’re talking about — and don’t they always? — the Fake News is losing the war to suppress the truth that hydroxychloroquine is still the first, only, and bestest ever cure for the China Virus.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/27/2020 @ 5:03 pmTennessee governor shoots down Birx recommendation to close bars at joint press conference
Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee (R) shot down White House adviser Deborah Birx’s recommendation to close bars and limit indoor seating at restaurants during a joint press conference on Monday.
Birx, the coordinator of the White House coronavirus task force, made her recommendation to shut down bars and limit indoor dining during the press conference, warning that Tennessee was on the verge of rapid COVID-19 spread.
……
Shortly after Birx spoke, Lee said he would not close bars, limit indoor dining or give county officials the authority to do so. Only a few areas are able to close businesses without the governor’s approval.
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…..She warned that the state could see an increase in cases as asymptomatic young people unknowingly spread the virus.
She said closing bars and limiting dining helped curb the spread of the coronavirus in Arizona, which was seeing large increases along with Florida and Texas.
Birx did support Lee’s plan on masks, which allows county mayors to impose their own mandates……
The White House adviser said closing bars, limiting indoor dining and having all residents wear masks could have “as big an impact on decreasing new cases as what we had from shelter-in-place.”
Tennessee has confirmed a total of 96,489 cases, including 2,553 since Sunday, according to state data. The coronavirus has caused 978 deaths in the state since the beginning of the pandemic.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 7/27/2020 @ 5:09 pm……
Herman Cain is still hospitalized for coronavirus after being admitted weeks ago
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 7/27/2020 @ 5:13 pmLast week when Trump announced he would be throwing out the first pitch at an Aug. 15th Yankee’s game, I turned to the wife and said “there’s no way they invited him to do that”. He announced it an hour before Fauci threw out the first pitch for Nationals.
Yesterday, he announced he wouldn’t be doing it.
Today the Yankees announced that he wasn’t invited in the first place, they weren’t asked after Trump announced it, and hadn’t heard yet that that he’d cancelled. This being a thing that they, at no point, were ever going to let happen.
That was also the same day that Trump promised a new “powerful” plan to address the Covid crisis, “In a very short period of time”. Still crickets. Trump has promised some sort of plan, or order, or legislation, using that specific phrase 61 times during his presidency. He has, so far, delivered it zero times. When he says something he’s lying, or has no clue, about everything.
He…is a moron, and a liar, or just so mentally disturbed.
Sean Doolittle, sportsball man:
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 7/27/2020 @ 5:21 pmAt least 40 people test positive for coronavirus after church event, Alabama pastor says
More than 40 people were infected with the coronavirus after attending a multi-day revival event at a north Alabama Baptist church, according to the congregation’s pastor.
“The whole church has got it, just about,” Al.com quoted pastor Daryl Ross of Warrior Creek Missionary Baptist Church in Marshall County as saying.
The church is in the small community of Strawberry, about 60 miles northeast of Birmingham.
Ross said the churchgoers, including himself, tested positive after the congregation held a series of religious services featuring a guest pastor over the course of several days last week.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 7/27/2020 @ 5:31 pm……
“We knew what we were getting into,” he said. “We knew the possibilities.”
……
That’s the Spirit!
“That’s the Spirit!”
https://www.theonion.com/cause-and-infect-1844415575
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 5:41 pmThis is why we can’t have nice things.
Dave (1bb933) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:10 pm“We’ll see what happens.”
Dave (1bb933) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:12 pmYou see “a short period of time” doesn’t specify time scale, if you’re a Mayfly, a few days is eternity, if you’re Mick Jagger, or the devil, 1,000 years is blink of the eye.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:17 pmWhat did I tell you? The Fake News pretends they believe the so-called medical experts with all their elitist knowing things, but secretly they’re taking hydroxychloroquine!
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:22 pmlurker (d8c5bc) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:22 pm
Piss on her!
nk (1d9030) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:27 pm24.
nk (1d9030) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:27 pm
What the president does on his own time is his own business.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:34 pmWell, his and Vladimir’s,
Dave (1bb933) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:37 pmThe favored nations rule has rankled conservative groups along with the industry and patient organizations.
The effect of linking Medicare drug prices to the lowest cost overseas will be to raise the cost on the third world to the point of unaffordability.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2020 @ 6:59 pmlurker (d8c5bc) — 7/27/2020 @ 5:03 pm
Not sure everyone will see the implicit “/sarc”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2020 @ 7:00 pmHydroxychloroquine is the inner fraud of the Fake News conspiracy. They know it doesn’t work; they’re all drinking bleach.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2020 @ 7:02 pmWouldn’t be funny if THC was the real cure?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2020 @ 7:03 pm27.
I keep never learning that.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/27/2020 @ 7:11 pm@18-
Rip Murdock (361788) — 7/27/2020 @ 7:38 pmTrump couldn’t stand being one-upped by Fauci.
Oops. Meant @16.
Rip Murdock (361788) — 7/27/2020 @ 7:38 pmhttp://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2020/07/27...
The Miami Marlins have had at least 14 of their players and staff members test positive for the coronavirus, a high-ranking MLB official told USA TODAY Sports, and they have postponed their home game[s.]
This desperate quest to make a buck by MLB [and the NFL BYW] is just nuts. Time to call all the games, the season, send the teams home, refund any season ticket holders, wear masks and belt this bug outta the publicly-paid-for-and-financed-stadiums. Teams, leagues and the TV networks aren’t poor nor going to miss a meal. It’s not like these multi-millionaires haven’t quit before, either– and for a much more selfish reason:
‘The 1994–95 Major League Baseball strike was the eighth work stoppage in baseball history, as well as the fourth in-season work stoppage in 22 years. The strike began on August 12, 1994, and resulted in the remainder of that season being cancelled, including the postseason and, for the first time since 1904, the World Series.’ -source, wikisafeathome.badcall
“Baseball been berry-berry-good for me.” – Covid 19
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/27/2020 @ 8:53 pmThank God our President is retweeting the “send me your pee” hydroxychloroquine lady.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/27/2020 @ 8:54 pm28. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2020 @ 7:02 pm
Hydroxychloroquine is what thre presodent of Brazil took, and claims it cured him – it is also being used, along with zinc, and an antibiotic in Honduras and some other places (the Zelenko protocol. Vladimir (Zev) Zelenko hopes to recover his reputation.
Where they are drinking bleach is in Bolivia.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/world/americas/chlorine-coronavirus-bolivia-latin-america.html
An important legislator in Bolivia has threatened to expel the World Health Organization if they continue to propagandize against it. (it’s not a law, or close to it, it seems)
This news article does not explain what is the theory behind the use of chlorine dioxide – I’d like to kno e what they;re arguing. Without that, you can;t understand what;s going on in Bolivia.
Sammy Finkelman (db2a13) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:01 pmThis deranged baboon is the reason the United States has 4% of the world’s population and 23% of the coronavirus deaths.
nk (1d9030) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:03 pmWhile it is not even nearly as sad as the one-time 2012 polling favorite’s CV-19 predicament (see #15 above), it is jarring to see how far this guy (the initial favorite of several posters here, including I) has fallen
urbanleftbehind (08b3a1) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:08 pmJust a reminder, this is still going on in the US today.
Detaining people for pre-crime in the US. Contrary to the rights of a citizen based on the Constitution. But Trump has an article 2 or something that says some words. He has suspended the recognition of the US Constitution by the federal government.
This is also a reason for conviction of impeachment, and the Russia thing…no, not that one, the current one that is only tangentially related to the other one that was just a little related to the Ukraine one, vs the British (Open) one, or…
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:23 pmCool
Dustin (4237e0) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:38 pmMeanwhile, the Miami Marlins managed to set a record for a sports team infected with Covid. I’m going out on a limb here and say that they were probably not huddled at home with masks on.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:40 pmWhen Trump’s Karma catches up with him it’ll be a doozy.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:41 pmThey get paid more now but they’re still simple-minded goons out of Damon Runyon and Ring Lardner stories, and speaking of which, here’s “Baseball Hattie” for JVW who I know is a Runyon fan and everybody else who should be.
nk (1d9030) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:50 pmIs that the code name for Melania’s renegotiated pre-nup?
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:54 pmArson, assault and battery, vandalism, terrorist acts, rioting are all crimes in the real world. Not sure why you’d claim otherwise.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 9:56 pmThe only thing wrong with the feds in Portland is that Trump over-promised. [understatement intentional, tirade omitted, it’s late here]. He should have made a simple statement: “They’re there to protect the federal courthouse and the people working in it because the local authorities are not doing it.”
There’s a lot of gaslighting from the other side, and I for one am not buying it. The “peaceful protesters” and the “Wall of MILFs” are accessories, before, during, and after the fact, of the vandals, arsonists, and assailants. They provide them cover and support and obstruct the agents when they try to arrest them.
nk (1d9030) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:20 pm“Arson, assault and battery, vandalism, terrorist acts, rioting are all crimes in the real world. Not sure why you’d claim otherwise.”
What does “proactively arrest” mean to you?
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:20 pmIt means don’t sit around and let criminals commit crimes without consequence just because some mayor has given the police a stand down order because those animals are more equal than others.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:25 pm“It means don’t sit around and let criminals commit crimes without consequence just because some mayor has given the police a stand down order because those animals are more equal than others.”
That’s not what proactively means.
Reactive means you arrest someone after they commit a crime. So proactive means…?
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:27 pmThey’re no different than palestinian terrorists using hospitals and children as human shields.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:27 pmNo. You aren’t using it in the context of what is actually happening. You continue to use bad faith and allow these terrorists free reign because they fall on your side of the political spectrum ‘thulu.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:28 pmBeing proactive is getting a gun and training to defend yourself. Being reactive is getting a gun after you’ve already been brutalized. You still haven’t used the gun in either case.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:31 pm“You continue to use bad faith”
I’m not the one who’s pretending to not know what proactive means.
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:34 pmContext to deal with your dishonesty.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:36 pm“Context to deal with your dishonesty.”
Reminder that one of the first acts by these guys was to illegally arrest someone.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/portland-fourth-amendment-arrests/2020/07/24/c7e9822c-cceb-11ea-91f1-28aca4d833a0_story.html
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:40 pmFOX News host Martha MacCallum… News host??? This is the same bubbl-headed bimbo who stated on air that FDR declared ‘we have nothing to fear but fear itself’ – after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:41 pmOn topic, does anyone expect any vaccine to be more effective than a common flu vaccine with the same potency and efficacy?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:41 pmThat’s twice now that you’ve insulted me, NJRob.
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:41 pmSquirrel. Nothing to do with the topic at hand.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:43 pmCalling you out is not an insult. You’ve made it clear you side with the rioters as you constantly post “abuse” by cops, but neglect the violence committed by the rioters.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:44 pm“Calling you out is not an insult. ”
Calling me dishonest is an insult. Saying that I’m arguing in bad faith is an insult.
“You’ve made it clear you side with the rioters as you constantly post “abuse” by cops, but neglect the violence committed by the rioters.”
You know this works both ways.
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:48 pmNo it isn’t. Saying an argument is in bad faith isn’t one either. But that’s what you are resorting to.
How cute.
Go for it. I admit I am on the side of law and order. How’s anarchy treating you? What about communism?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:54 pmhttps://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/dhs-agent-in-portland-protesters-seek-to-embarrass-defeat-trump-catatonic-with-hate?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=widget&utm_campaign=midarticle_rec
Those are the people you’re defending when you try and muddy the water.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:57 pm“Saying an argument is in bad faith isn’t one either. But that’s what you are resorting to.”
How is it in bad faith? The fact that rioters are damaging the federal courthouse doesn’t give the feds carte blanche to arrest anyone they like, for any reason they like. I’m not supporting the rioters by saying the feds (or the police in general) have to obey the law.
“How’s anarchy treating you? What about communism?”
Now, see, this is arguing in bad faith.
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:00 pmSince they aren’t arresting anyone they like for any reason they like that’s bad faith.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:02 pmReactive means you arrest someone after they commit a crime. So proactive means…?
It means you identify a criminal enterprise, keep them under surveillance, wait until there’s enough evidence of a criminal attempt or conspiracy to satisfy the Constitution, and then arrest them before they commit the crime. The police do it, or at least try to do it, all the time.
nk (1d9030) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:05 pm“Since they aren’t arresting anyone they like for any reason they like that’s bad faith.”
I’ll refer you again to the article @54.
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:07 pm“Meanwhile, said the agent, the police take the abuse until the destruction begins. “The officers stand calmly, listening to it, taking it, only making a move if the rioters try to destroy the property or enter the area they have been told repeatedly not to enter. They [the agents] don’t even respond to thrown projectiles, merely calmly dodging them,” said the agent.”
This guy is lying.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/25/us/portland-federal-legal-jurisdiction-courts.html
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:11 pmThe Times is lying and quoting Antifa rioters. But that’s par for the course from them.
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:16 pmThey had the Constitutional authority to detain him and question him. To ask for identification, if only his name, and to pat him down for weapons. If his buddies were ganging up on them where they were, they had the right to go to a safe place. (WaPo leaves that out, or I missed it.) Without probable cause, just reasonable suspicion. With probable cause, they could have held him until they could take him before a judge, and guess what? The judge would tell them whether they had probable cause.
nk (1d9030) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:18 pmI still think nine out of ten of them are there looking to hook up for sex, and especially the cougars. 😉
nk (1d9030) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:21 pm“They had the Constitutional authority to detain him and question him. To ask for identification, if only his name, and to pat him down for weapons. If his buddies were ganging up on them where they were, they had the right to go to a safe place. (WaPo leaves that out, or I missed it.) Without probable cause, just reasonable suspicion. With probable cause, they could have held him until they could take him before a judge, and guess what? The judge would tell them whether they had probable cause.”
This is correct, but also this isn’t what happened. They detained him and questioned him without probable cause and without arresting him. Cline directly admits this.
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:24 pmIn any event, as has been pointed out, this is a derail, so I’ll share this:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/28/tech/facebook-youtube-coronavirus/index.html
Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:40 pmEven if this Moderna vaccine make it through Phase 3 testing with positive or acceptable results, it will still take months before mass production and distribution can take place.
Once, if, a vaccine is readily available, I’m sure millions will rush to their doctor or pharmacy to get vaccinated. I, however, will not be one of those people. As my father used to say, son, never trust first generation software. The same is true for a first generation vaccine.
People take flu shots every year, yet many still catch the flu. It won’t be any different with a coronavirus shot. People can take it and still get infected. This pandemic will be with us for a very long time.
I remember back in the day when children were not allowed to enroll in schools, unless they had taken an MMR vaccine. To this day, students are not allowed to enroll in colleges, unless they tested negative for tuberculosis. I’m wondering if that will be the case once a coronavirus vaccine is developed.
Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:48 pmIt’s possible for several things to be true at once:
1. Most of the protesters have been non-violent and law-abiding;
2. Some of the protesters have committed crimes, some violent, for which they should be arrested and charged;
3. Some federal agents have committed acts of lawless violence, e.g., the unprovoked attack on the Navy veteran whose wrist was broken; and
4. Some of the agents have committed constitutional violations, e.g., the widely viewed arrest of an individual without probable cause (@nk – per Vladeck and Kerr).
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:56 pm@NJRob, is there anyone you disagree with that you haven’t accused of dishonesty and bad faith?
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/27/2020 @ 11:58 pmIn case anyone actually needs reminding about the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/28/2020 @ 12:27 amThere isn’t going be any vaccine in time for November, and that’s going to cause serious problems on Election Day.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/07/24/2020-election-disaster-perfect-storm-372778
Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1) — 7/28/2020 @ 1:32 amnk – Do you police in a kilt and pom pom shoes?
mg (8cbc69) — 7/28/2020 @ 3:53 amThe pig justice roberts needs to be impeached and replaced.
mg (8cbc69) — 7/28/2020 @ 4:04 amFeig ling hes as bad as dr. Gu.
Narciso (7404b5) — 7/28/2020 @ 5:52 amWell, this doesn’t sound good at all.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-texas-coronavirus-death-surge-is-here-and-its-terrifying?ref=home
Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1) — 7/28/2020 @ 5:54 amYou want the end of america as we know it, gawain, sorry to dissapoint you.
Narciso (7404b5) — 7/28/2020 @ 5:57 amhttps://www.i24news.tv/en/news/coronavirus/1594747958-study-fda-approved-drug-may-reduce-covid-19-to-common-cold
Narciso (7404b5) — 7/28/2020 @ 6:07 amLike clockwork
https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1287848265698947072
Narciso (7404b5) — 7/28/2020 @ 6:10 amTrump was the end of America as we knew it.
Some of us are determined to get it back.
Dave (1bb933) — 7/28/2020 @ 6:18 am85. And all it will take is a covid vaccine!/
Gryph (76a0c3) — 7/28/2020 @ 6:22 am46. Davethulhu (eadaad) — 7/27/2020 @ 10:20 pm
Arrest them for small crimes (or maybe some kind of unlawful assembly) before they commit bigger crimes, because if it were for for no crimes, or perhaps no authority to demand they disperse etc, it would be illegal, and they don’t seem to be trying to hide it so they must have legal grounds.
It means also that if they had local support they would just ignore it for the time being, and save themselves lots of work arresting lots of people for something that is ultimately not going to be prosecuted, or prosecuted very much, counting on the local police to prevent something more serious.
Sammy Finkelman (db2a13) — 7/28/2020 @ 6:35 am“….constantly post “abuse” by cops, but neglect the violence committed by the rioters.”
I don;t think there is much footage of bad things done by the demonstrators.
The television reporters are ignoring it. I heard on the radio someone say that they point their cameras down to the ground when demonstrators are doing things, and only start recording when the police do. (because nobody’s interested in footage of demonstrators and so their news director isn’t, or because they don’t want to be attacked.)
Sammy Finkelman (db2a13) — 7/28/2020 @ 6:43 amYup, Narciso posts something with no description leading to a known idiot posting a conspiracy theory. Like clockwork.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 7/28/2020 @ 7:03 amThe CDC has a table that shows total deaths from all causes. Excess is calculated based on historical average.
They have breakouts for COVID if you’re interested. But I know a lot of people don’t trust the way that’s being determined.
I think that if COVID is a new and fatal phenomena that it should be easy to see in the high level data, such as increased ICU usage and total deaths. It is easy. Very easy.
ICU usage can be controlled by reducing elective medical care. But dead is dead.
Based on this data there is clearly some new cause of death that’s killing thousands of people a week. I can’t post images here, but if you look at the link you’ll note that the 2017-2018 flu season had a lot of excess deaths. One thing to notice is that the excess deaths this year (probably from COVID) are coming after the 2019-2020 flue season. This further supports the theory that there is a new cause of death operating in the US.
We really need this vaccine.
Infection comes first
Time123 (306531) — 7/28/2020 @ 7:08 ama couple weeks later comes symptoms and case counts.
a few weeks after that comes hospitalization.
a few weeks after that comes deaths.
TL:DR
The data continues to show COVID is a problem. The people that said TX, FL, Etc had a problem when case counts went up were correct.
Time123 (306531) — 7/28/2020 @ 7:13 amThe people that accused them of being alarmist were wrong.
And speaking of “cures”, Trump is still downtalking masks and promoting HCQ in his retweet of video that was removed because it was chock-filled with falsehoods. Talk about mixed messaging. Unfit.
Paul Montagu (dead92) — 7/28/2020 @ 7:56 am85… how courageous, valiant and heroic!
Now eat your Wheaties!
Colonel Haiku (6c33c4) — 7/28/2020 @ 8:20 amDavethulhu: They detained him and questioned him without probable cause and without arresting him.
Sounds like a violation of the law. Are anarchists going to take that sitting down??
beer ‘n pretzels (1e9784) — 7/28/2020 @ 8:47 am@87-
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 7/28/2020 @ 8:50 amSomething like Precrime?
So, we don’t even know it works and the MSM (DNC-Press) is already trying to dash everyone’s hopes and keep the scare up. If the vaccine drastically reduces hospitalization and deaths, that means it will be like the Flu. And we can stop the crazy lockdown. In fact we don’t need a vaccine, if we continue to improve on treating the disease. Of course, by constantly screeching about CASES, the DNC media is ignoring the deaths. which is the most important thing. Do people realize that 4 million Americans have gotten CV-19? Or that yesterday we logged 60,000 new cases and only 600 new deaths. That’s a death rate of 1%, and when you factor in that almost all those are over age 65, the case for the lockdown becomes weaker and weaker.
rcocean (fcc23e) — 7/28/2020 @ 8:54 amTrump’s New Favorite COVID Doctor Believes in Alien DNA, Demon Sperm, and Hydroxychloroquine
A Houston doctor who praises hydroxychloroquine and says that face masks aren’t necessary to stop transmission of the highly contagious coronavirus has become a star on the right-wing internet, garnering tens of millions of views on Facebook on Monday alone. Donald Trump Jr. declared the video of Stella Immanuel a “must watch,” while Donald Trump himself retweeted the video.
Before Trump and his supporters embrace Immanuel’s medical expertise, though, they should consider other medical claims Immanuel has made—including those about alien DNA and the physical effects of having sex with witches and demons in your dreams.
…….
In sermons posted on YouTube and articles on her website, Immanuel claims that medical issues like endometriosis, cysts, infertility, and impotence are caused by sex with “spirit husbands” and “spirit wives”—a phenomenon Immanuel describes essentially as witches and demons having sex with people in a dreamworld.
……
Immanuel’s oddball claims about the world extend to politics. She didn’t bring up this allegation publicly in Washington, but she has claimed that the American government is run in part by non-human reptilians.
…….
Unusually for a pediatrician, Immanuel has praised corporal punishment for children. The American Academy of Pediatrics opposes corporal punishment, and claims that the “vast majority” of pediatricians do not recommend it.
“Children need to be whipped,” she declared in a 2015 sermon, before adding that she didn’t think children should be “abused.”
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 7/28/2020 @ 8:57 am……
Immanuel has seized on her newfound celebrity, tweeting a video demanding that CNN hosts and National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases chief Anthony Fauci give her jars of their urine so she can test if they’re secretly taking hydroxychloroquine even as they caution against its use.
……
Death rate per million:
“Brilliant” Cuomo NY – 1,600
“Horrible” DeSantis FLA – 276
NJ – 1,789
rcocean (fcc23e) — 7/28/2020 @ 8:58 amTexas – 203
BTW, Newsome is still screeching about the need for a lockdown even though we only had 92 Cv-19 deaths yesterday. that’s in a state with almost 40 million people.
rcocean (fcc23e) — 7/28/2020 @ 8:59 amSome jackass Radio sports guy was on the radio pompously intoning that “Baseball restarted, even though the data showed that was impossible” Of course, neither he -nor any of his dim-witted co-hosts- explained what “data” that was. And I doubt he could even say. But its the current “party-line” so all the liberal/left sports talking heads are squawking it out.
Baseball should have re-opended much sooner, if they had the virus would’ve spread and then burned itself out, and they’d still be playing, CV-19 free.
rcocean (fcc23e) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:03 amrcocean, I put up a summary of deaths that directly addresses your points in comment 90.
TL:DR The data continues to show COVID is a problem. The people that said TX, FL, ctc had a problem when case counts went up were correct.
The people that accused them of being alarmist were wrong.
Time123 (797615) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:03 amThe politicization of HCQ is one of the most disgusting things I’ve ever seen. But the liberal/left will stop at nothing if they think it somehow, even indirectly, hurts Trump. I’m not a doctor, and have no desire to play one, unlike the Media. I wanted to leave HCQ to the Doctors, but Big Tech and the liberal media don’t want anyone to talk about it, unless its in a negative way.
As for the FDA, I’ll have to read the press release myself, since you can NOT depend on the DNC-media to even report that in an accurate way. Sad but true.
rcocean (fcc23e) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:08 amNation of KARENs
Colonel Haiku (6c33c4) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:08 amteh petrified onanists
bark away doggies
Baseball should have re-opended much sooner, if they had the virus would’ve spread and then burned itself out, and they’d still be playing, CV-19 free.
Comedy gold!
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:10 amThey don’t embarrass easy… https://twitter.com/HannahCox7/status/1288104245410123777
Colonel Haiku (6c33c4) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:11 amTrump’s New Favorite COVID Doctor Believes in Alien DNA, Demon Sperm, and Hydroxychloroquine
Dave (1bb933) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:13 amThe politicization of HCQ is one of the most disgusting things I’ve ever seen.
Seriously? The only one who has politicized it is the President. And I can think of lot more disgusting things than that.
RipMurdock (d2a2a8) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:14 am‘Baseball should have re-opended much sooner, if they had the virus would’ve spread and then burned itself out, and they’d still be playing, CV-19 free.’
Boo-hoo.
“There’s no crying in baseball!” – Jimmy Dugan [Tom Hanks]’A League Of Their Own’ 1992
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:15 amYou want data RCocean? I love data.
Here’s some data on Deaths. Again, it shows that this is a real problem.
Here’s a NEJM report on a clinical trial on Hydroxychloroquine with or without Azithromycin in Mild-to-Moderate Covid-19
Here’s a Preliminary report on remdesivir for the Treatment of Covid-19. It appears to do what what obsessed people keep saying that hydroxychloroquine does. It helps people recover from Covid. It’s part of why treatment today is is much better than the treatment in March / April.
Time123 (306531) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:16 am@106. Demon Sperm?
Aka: Reagan Seed.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:17 amDO IT!
Dave (1bb933) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:17 amIt means you identify a criminal enterprise, keep them under surveillance, wait until there’s enough evidence of a criminal attempt or conspiracy to satisfy the Constitution, and then arrest them before they commit the crime. The police do it, or at least try to do it, all the time.
Helluva good idea for a movie…
Oh. Wait:
‘Minority Report’ 2002
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:26 amI also wanted to leave this and things like vaccines and other treatments to the pros. Doesn’t mean the president can’t talk about it, but he needs to do so calmly, honestly, with a presidential character. He needs to show us he’s not trying to be our king and and isn’t trying to sell us a used Mazda. He’s just listening to the advisers and administrators he put in place over the years to handle these emergencies.
Instead, he’s tried very hard to minimize something that was very deadly, at an early stage, leading to doubt that he’s being effective, which is part of the problem. It’s hard to trust HCQ or vaccines for COVID because of this.
OF course some of the problem is that the media is trolled into mocking everything Trump does. Trolling them for a decade seems to have had that effect. Trump was more of a ‘you gonna be a liberal? that’s how you get Trump! hahaha!’ and less of a ‘Here’s the best leader we’ve got’
Dustin (4237e0) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:28 am85. Trump was the end of America as we knew it. Some of us are determined to get it back.
Yep- that rock ‘n’ roll has got to go!
“Well, it looks like we’re going to have another sunny day – high 72, low 72, and not a cloud in the sky. – ‘Pleasantville’ 1998
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:39 amThat mortality rate is ten times greater than common flu, for a virus that is more contagious than flu or H1N1. If only Trump would stop downtalking the virus, then maybe his loyal unquestioning followers will follow suit. Maybe.
Paul Montagu (dead92) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:40 amNah, that was last week.
Dave (1bb933) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:49 amI’m OK with leaders trying to keep people’s spirits up. Moral is a good thing in it’s own right. A competent leader might have talked about how our treatment will get better and directed his advisors to keep him up to speed on what the best treatment was, and how much outcomes were improving. They might have also insisted that his team make sure that health care providers were aware of the best treatments and policies that were being developed. It would have been a positive contribution that a good leader could have rightfully taken credit for. This would likely have involved highlighting things that turned out to be a dead end, admitting that, and making a correction. The media would have attacked him for every mistake. But the approval ratings of governors, left and right, seem to show that public is willing to overlook honest mistakes if there’s some forward progress and honest intentions to help.
But Trump’s a terrible leader who tried to pretend this wasn’t a problem and who can never admit any error ever. He said a thing was good, so he and his supporters are going to stick with that come hell or high water. Trump seems to feel that managing the crisis means making people think he’s doing great, regardless of how the facts on the ground.
Time123 (306531) — 7/28/2020 @ 9:53 amThe Send Me Your Pee Lady whose hydroxychloroquine theories Trump retweeted repeatedly has also made claims about alien DNA and the physical consequences of having sex in your dreams with witches and demons.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/28/2020 @ 10:04 amIndian schoolgirls discover asteroid moving towards Earth
WE’RE SAVED!!!
Dave (1bb933) — 7/28/2020 @ 10:11 amThat’s the subject of the new post.
Dustin (4237e0) — 7/28/2020 @ 10:13 amThanks. That’s what I get for posting on the run.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/28/2020 @ 10:18 amNot complaining or anything I think it’s hilarious.
Dustin (4237e0) — 7/28/2020 @ 10:27 amI’ll see your Hollywood and raise you the real world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsuccessful_terrorist_plots_in_the_United_States_post-9/11
nk (1d9030) — 7/28/2020 @ 10:32 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thwarted_Islamic_terrorist_attacks (Worldwide)
Thanks, and no problem. I took it solely as information, not a complaint. It was a good reminder for me to slow down. In my rush, not only did I overlook Dana’s new post, but that Dave already mentioned it in this thread.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/28/2020 @ 11:30 amDamn. He scurried away as soon as he got a question about alien DNA.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/28/2020 @ 2:53 pmOops, wrong thread. Sorry.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 7/28/2020 @ 2:54 pmWhat, no link to a story? But at least you didn’t bore anyone by writing a long-winded screed.
rcocean (2e1c02) — 7/28/2020 @ 3:59 pm124
Huh-huh-huh-hivemindin’
Colonel Haiku (60802f) — 7/28/2020 @ 4:05 pmSo misunderstood
Hivemindin’
Just feelin’ so good