A Striking Contrast Between Two Health Care Professionals
[guest post by Dana]
This morning, nurse Kaci Hickox who, while still in the 21-day incubation period, has been seen chatting it up with reporters, bike riding with her boyfriend and having friends visit her, claimed that it was out of an abundance of politics Gov. Chris Christie made the quarantine decision for his state which caused her to spend a weekend in an isolation tent before a judge permitted her to return home to Maine:
“When Gov. Christie stated that it was an abundance of caution, which is his reasoning for putting health care workers in a sort of quarantine for three weeks, it was really an abundance of politics,” she told Chuck Todd. “And I think all of the scientific and medical and public health community agrees with me on that statement.”
Further, renowned Ebola expert Hickox reassured the public:
“We don’t know … everything in the world. But we know a lot about Ebola,” Hickox said on Meet The Press. “We have been researching this disease for 38 years, since its first appearance in Africa. And we know how the infection is transmitted from person to person. And we know that it’s not transmitted from someone who is asymptomatic, as I am and many other aid workers will be when they return.”
Meet Dr. Colin Buck who has not had any physical contact with his family since his return from Liberia where he was on the front lines working to save the lives of Ebola patients. Dr. Buck is under a self-imposed quarantine. And this is one healthcare professional actually sticking to it.
Buck had been cleared to fly from JFK back home to the Bay Area and it was after talking with health officials there that he opted for self-quarantine:
“I miss my family,” Bucks, 43, said Thursday from his Redwood City home. “But we recognized in advance that it would be essential to be separated on the return. It’s an extension of the deployment to me.
“We’ll do the other parts — the reunion, finally coming home — after a safe isolation period is expired.”
Buck also made the decision to:
“remove himself from direct social interactions upon his return to the United States, to allay both public fears and his own concerns about the faint possibility of infecting others.”
Buck opted to err on the side of caution for his own sake and for the sake of those around him. And that, Mr. President, is essentially what so-called “hysterical” America wants from returning healthcare professionals – and from your administration: a commitment to consistently err on the side of caution in all things Ebola. For everyone’s sake.
Bucks spent five weeks treating Ebola patients in northeast Liberia, volunteering with the International Medical Corps. The work, he said, was grueling but often satisfying — Bucks and his colleagues saved more lives than they lost — and after treating more than 130 people thought to have had Ebola, he’s now considered one of the nation’s experts in the disease.
Bucks never treated, or even touched, a suspected Ebola patient without wearing full protective gear. And throughout the community where he worked, he said, physical contact was extremely limited. But though he thinks his risk of having Ebola is slim, he decided to reassure himself and others by completely isolating himself for the three-week incubation period.
(emphasis added)
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (8e74ce) — 11/2/2014 @ 9:47 amSo, basically, the Doctor is a thoroughgoing professional, and the Nurse is a self-absorbed twunt.
C. S. P. Schofield (848299) — 11/2/2014 @ 9:48 amOne is a medical professional. The other is a wannabe politician. A sort of “Abortion Barbie” in utero, so to speak.
Mike K (90dfdc) — 11/2/2014 @ 9:52 amEh… Between Two Healthcare Professionals…
Dana (8e74ce) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:00 amChuckie T should’ve had Dr. Buck as a guest, both he and his audience could’ve learned something.
Hickox is like her mentor/idol Obama… an arrogant, totally self-absorbed, preening narcissist.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:01 amKaci Hickox reminds me so much of Sandra Fluke. Both deified by a segment of the public, self-absorbed and self-righteous, while simultaneously – and unbeknownst to their young foolish selves – easily manipulated by professional politicians and agenda-driven do-gooders.
Dana (8e74ce) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:03 amI’m sure we’ll see Kaci running for elected office in the ’16 cycle, just as Sandra is running for CA State Senator this year.
Drama Queens both.
askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:06 amThis does paint a rather stark contrast to between the good doctor and the self-serving nurse.
I cannot imagine she will be well-received in her small town community in Miane when this is all over, even if no one else becomes infected.
The fact that WaPo is applauding her for her brave acts putting her community at risk pretty well proves she is wrong.
WarEagle82 (b18ccf) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:07 amThe Wall Street Journal reported Saturday, in a story about the recovered U.S. ebola patienst that Dr. Brantly woke up on July 23, feeling “likew you feel when you are starting to get a cold.”
His temperature was 100 degrees, that went down to 99.8 after a shower.
He suspected he had malaria, because he’d bene taking all the precautions, but two tests (for malaria) came back negative and so did a test for ebola!
Days later a second text was positive.
So that means:
1) Maybe if someone is incubating ebola a negative test won’t clear them.
2) But it should not be infectious at that stage.
3) Ebola maybe could also be spread by mosquitoes. (Why did he suspect malaria? Was he bitten by some? All sorts of people who had ebola, including Patrick Sawyer, seem to have suspected malaria.)
Now people in hazmat gear can’t be bitten by mosquitoes either. So it would go down. Check. (alternative explanation is simply some bodily fluids dropped somewhere or gotten into food)
Now mosquitoes don’t reinject blood, so if it could be transmitted that way, it probably would be very inefficient and you’d expect a much longer than average incubation period. Check.
And mosquitoes would also be killed by all those pools of stagnant chlorinated water in Monrovia, so yes it would go down even if mosquito bites could spread it. Check.
Samantha Power said today on Face the Nation, that they seem to be attrbutinbg a lot of cases to bad burial practices, and I’m wondering if that’s really the reason. They are attributing the decline now to improvement in burial practices. Sure that caused it, but has burial practices become the all purpose explanation when you don’t know how it was contracted?
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:07 amThe custom in most of West Africa is to wash the body to prepare it for burial.
askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:13 amThe proper procedure for disposing of Ebola corpses is cremation, which is sternly frowned upon.
MTP? She is Sandra Fluke redux in all respects. You called it, askeptic and Dana.
elissa (ed23e5) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:14 amWarEagle82 (b18ccf) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:07 am
for her brave acts putting her community at risk
She’s not putting anybody at risk, if the current CDC theories, based on years of occasioal experience with ebola, are correct, and nobody should know these theories better than Kaci Hickox because she worked for the CDC.
Current thinking is, and there’s nothing to show that that is wrong, is that there is no risk of giving ebola to somebody else until i> some time after symptoms appear, which woud surely be detected in her case.
You must remember something else: Dozens of medical workers from the ebola zone returned to the United States before the quarantining business started. And Kaci Hickox known that, too. Dr. Craig Spencer was not the first person, or among the first, to return from there. Dr. Thomas frieden said about five a day were coming back. Judging by that, they would seem to have a eventual infection rate of maybe 1%. Such a person, however, is not considered dangerous to others until after symptoms appear, and if you really watch carefully for symptoms, you should be able to prevent a passing along the infection.
Even if what nobody but me is saying – that mosquitoes could spread it.
And if that’s wrong, with a lot of people flying out of the three countries, and the only precaution being a questionaire and temperature readings, you should have expected any number of cases in Europe.
Colin Jeffrey, the British man who died in Macedonia on October 9, did not have ebola. Tests came back negative.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:23 amNow people in hazmat gear can’t be bitten by mosquitoes either.
Since the doctors in all probability were not wearing hazmat suits 24/7, perhaps they considered malaria a possibility because they had been bitten by mosquitos while not wearing the suits and the symptoms were similar.
Just a crazy thought.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:25 am10. askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:13 am
The custom in most of West Africa is to wash the body to prepare it for burial.
The proper procedure for disposing of Ebola corpses is cremation, which is sternly frowned upon.
They’ve been educating people to put on gloves and other protection, and that seems to be enough.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:25 amBob Schieffer on Face the Nation (they’ll have a 60th anniversay show next week) asked Samnatha Power what she was doing. She said she is following the guidelines of the New York State health authorities, which is to take her temperature twice a day. I think there are some 114 people in this situation, inclduing all the nurses taking care of Dr. Craig Spencer in Bellevue.
Her itinerary was chosen in consulation with the CDC. And yet some members of her family are afraid, so she understands.
She was face to face and BREATHING next to Bob Schieffer, and he didn’t seemed to be worried.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:30 amThe Ebola Barbie play set doesn’t come equipped with isolation bubble, hazmat crew, or rolls of caution tape. Those are sold separately as a stocking stuffer by a different company.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:35 amhttp://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/qas.html
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:36 amhttp://www.cdc.gov/features/bats/
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:49 amWe’re not supposed to get angry at him for getting on a plane, or going through an airport. That’s fine.
butlerj (8df702) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:50 amShe was face to face and BREATHING next to Bob Schieffer, and he didn’t seemed to be worried.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:30 am
Perhaps he feels it would be a blessing at this point in his life, Sammeh. Especially given his team’s prospects on Tuesday.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:07 amThe way Sammy has it Ebola can only be transferred via necromancy or cannibalism.
It’s not an infectious disease at all. Nina Phan must have been getting jiggy with Thomas Duncan, when the orderlies backs were turned, the tramp. So forgettaboutit.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:09 amShe was face to face and BREATHING next to Bob Schieffer, and he didn’t seemed to be worried.
I just watched that video. It’s a lie. Not a big lie. Hardly worth mentioning really, but they were separated by two different studios, who knows how many hundreds of miles.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:12 amIt looked to me like they were next to each other. I missed the very beginning. I think you are right because she talked like she was in New York City and Bob Schieffer, is, of course, in Washington. I didn’t think. Of course they try to crteate an illusion of proximity.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:15 amNurse Wretched struck out again today and so did Chuck Todd.
She refuses to talk about her roommate, who was diagnosed with Ebola.
She is never asked about who she works for (CDC, as media coordinator and advocate).
She never talks about how Craig Spencer thought he was okay too.
Yes, she is another privileged and protected leftist warrior, making the world safe for…her ego.
Patricia (5fc097) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:18 amGiven the seriousness of the virus, spouting percentages is rather foolish. An abundance of caution would be the best course of action, irrespective of Sammeh’s opinion.
hadoop (f7d5ba) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:22 amaddendum to #21
Necromancy, cannibalism, or eating fruit covered in batsh*t.
[Sorry, I left that last one out.]
Trust!!!
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:27 amTrust!!!
papertiger – Science!!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:32 amWhy does it matter that she worked/works for CDC?
butlerj (8df702) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:37 amI’m thinking a dead person would be exibiting the ultimate expression of asymtomatic.
Sorry, my logic is getting in the way of clear thinking on this practically impossible to catch (should we even call it a disease?) poisoning!
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:41 amSteve57 @ 6:42 pm in comment 39 in the White House: Democrats Will Lose Because They Are Running from Obama thread:
He may undersdtand it, but he didn’t make either decision, so he can’t reconcile them. Obama, however, is always up to a challenge, so he tries.
This is where his explanations fall apart.
What he gives is an argument that:
1. It isn’t unfair to members of the military because in the military, they are anyway liviing under circumscribed conditions.
2. There’s a serious downside to treating returning health care workers that way, that doesn’t apply to members of the military.
And like Steve57 says, Obama really does say:
Because he says that with the health care workers, it’s tempered by “making sure that they are not at risk themselves or at risk of spreading the disease”
A result, however, is that a lot of people, people, who are aware of both policies, will tend to think it’s the military that’s recommending the best practices, and not the CDC, when the truth may be the opposite.
Exactly.
Because there are no policy considerations behind the military’s decision, many people will tend to believe that the isolation of the military people has a good reason behind it.
He probably does realize that there’s a problem with that answer, but he’s not going to show it.
He’s really saying he’s letting this happen to the military because of political reasons, or because he has no special reason to overrule the Joint Chiefs of Staff, so if they want to act contrary to science, it’s OK with him. Josh Earnest, I think, claimed administrative conveneince.
This is called evading the question. Politicians do that often.
Exactly. And adds, the rules are still good enough to prevent transmission of the diseaase.
You mean, nobody reasonably intelligent, would act like a fool?
But Obama is more afraid to reverse himself or overrule the military.
I don’t think he’s such a fool that he doesn’t understand the contradiction.
What’s causing the contradiction is probably Obama’s extreme caution on anything he’s not politically committed to – he doesn’t want to overrule the military, and he doesn’t want to overrule the CDC, and what’s more, he is convinced the CDC is right, so he is willing to go oput on a limb for that, and back them up.
But he won’t change the military’s proposed plans for political reasons. He has no reason to take any political heat for that.
Perhaps this does make him an idiot, but not the kind of idiot you are saying.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:44 am29. papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:41 am
Practically impossible to catch till somebody gets really sick. When they are throwiing up all over and everything, then it gets easier.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:46 amI’m liking this NR by Andrew McCarthy,
Particularly,
Why does it matter that she worked/works for CDC?
Because the CDC is first and foremost a political organization, run and directed by politicians of disrepute. And their “science” which Nurse Twoface continues to reference in interviews (I wonder if she was coached?) keeps getting less and less settled.
Progs like to call it evolving because that sounds more encouraging than “We fu*ked up”.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:54 am28. butlerj (8df702) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:37 am
She’s known about ebola, and what people working with ebola consider necessary or reasonable to prevent infections, and what they don’t, for years.
And that makes her very confident in what she is saying: that even in the extremely remote possibility that she could have ebola, and it is extremely remote – she is not a risk to anyone else yet, and if she became a risk, she would know it before she could put anyone else at risk.
And furthermore, the risk would not magically disappear at 21 days out, either. Where do you think people got that number from? The same people who say she is not infectious now!!
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:56 amShe should take up fracking in her community. Think of all the concern for the collective!
butlerj (8df702) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:56 amLeftist trolls are just so precious.
JD (09e0d1) — 11/2/2014 @ 12:06 pmNo, that’s not so. Quarantining is recommended for people who are actually known to have the disease, or for which there is strong grounds to suspect that they do.
Potentionally exposed persons are supposed to take their temperature. If it’s OK, and they are not showing any other signs of ebola, they are OK.
But in general, everyone in Liberia should regard anyone else as potentially exposed, and ebola as everywhere, except that super precautions should be taken with a known case. Anything might be contaminated.
And they should make sure they don’t expose themselves to risk, which means don’t touch anyone, and wash their hands in chlorinated water a lot. Anyone entering a store is supposed to wash their hands with bleach.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 12:10 pmShe’s probably against fracking, but shouldn’t be.
Fracking:Cuomo::Keystone Pipeline:Obama
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 12:11 pmFinkelbombing is a crime against humanity.
JD (09e0d1) — 11/2/2014 @ 12:20 pmFinkelbombing is a crime against humanity.
When I do it can we call it TigerPapering the tread?
I always wanted a syndrome named after me.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/2/2014 @ 12:47 pmI believe that Doctors Without Borders has a policy of self isolation for 21 days after working with Ebola patients or such. I suspect most of the NGOs have some similar set of rules for people that work with them.
That doesn’t seem to align well with Kaci’s idea that we have all the science and she is following it to a “T”.
zdude (994096) — 11/2/2014 @ 1:01 pmWhy is it being suppressed?
Part of her job at LinkedIn, before she deleted her identity, was media relations and advocacy. So what’s going on? Is this about her “inhumane treatment” or is this a political campaign set up by Frieden and/or the CDC?
Patricia (5fc097) — 11/2/2014 @ 1:05 pmThank you for posting this. I had meant to post about this guy but lacked the energy, especially as I was embroiled in another “CDC contradicts itself” post — and those things make your head swim.
Patterico (9c670f) — 11/2/2014 @ 1:30 pmWow, an MD who gets it. Me thinks the chance of infecting his family makes him cautious while the unmarried, no family dingbats don’t give a crap.
But it also shines a light on the fact the people who have nothing to loose but their lives are equally reckless with ours. A reason to quarantine.
Rodney King's Spirit (8b9b5a) — 11/2/2014 @ 1:31 pm“So what’s going on? Is this about her “inhumane treatment” or is this a political campaign set up by Frieden and/or the CDC?”
You think she’s doing this under orders from the head of the CDC? No. You don’t. You’re just asking questions. And if somebody asks, and she says no, you still have questions, right? Never forget #benghazi.
butlerj (8df702) — 11/2/2014 @ 1:48 pm“Never forget #benghazi.”
butlerj – What aren’t we supposed to forget about Benghazi? You sound like you work for the government. Do have information we need to know?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/2/2014 @ 1:55 pmbutlerj – Can you double my money on a used car?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/2/2014 @ 1:59 pmThat boyfriend makes me wonder how deep the dating pool runs up in the north woods… if he told me he’d been vomiting since she’s been home, I wouldn’t think it was the Ebola
steveg (794291) — 11/2/2014 @ 2:20 pmBecause she’s got to be a harridan at home too
steveg (794291) — 11/2/2014 @ 2:21 pmSammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:25 am
There seems to be some dispute over how long the Ebola virus can survive in moist dirt.
askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 2:39 pmThere is very little dispute about how long it can survive in a nice hot fire.
Bodies from mass plagues have traditionally been disposed of by fire for a simple reason –
It fu..ing works!
No Witch Doctors Required.
Wow, an MD who gets it. Me thinks the chance of infecting his family makes him cautious while the unmarried, no family dingbats don’t give a crap.
More likely he doesn’t want his family made into pariahs and people clamoring for their quarantine too.
Anyway, Kaci is a heroine to the 20% who think we should do what the nice Central Disease Committee says like Hopin’ Changeit says. And the CDC is watching all of us and eating popcorn. Ebola is rescuing it from its obsolescence.
nk (dbc370) — 11/2/2014 @ 2:40 pm49. Nobody’s going to go into the grave.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 3:40 pmIt is good to know that Sammy Finkelman either knows everything or believes Kaci Hickox knows everything.
It is good to know that our moral and intellectual superiors are hard at work telling us about the risks they believe are acceptable for others.
I’ll sleep easier tonight knowing I won’t be going to Maine any time soon.
What a putz!
WarEagle82 (b18ccf) — 11/2/2014 @ 4:22 pm51- and nobody has ever been known to walk barefoot over a grave in Africa, particularly when bodies are buried outside of recognized graveyards.
askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 4:46 pmWhat does this mean?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/2/2014 @ 4:48 pmIt means that Sammy is just a bit obtuse.
askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 4:52 pm“Nobody’s going to go into the grave.”
DRJ @54.
What does this mean?
Here is the thread:
9. Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:07 am
10. askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:13 am
14. Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:25 am
49. askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 2:39 pm
51. 51. Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 3:40 pm
53. askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 4:46 pm
I would say now: the body is still underground, quite separated from people, and if it wasn’t, there would be a terrible smell, and the ebola virus is not believed to linger more than a few days in puddles or other collections of body fluid at room temperature, as the Oct 3, 2014 New York Times said. Nobody is going to dig up the grave in that period of time.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:05 pmHave you considered the possibility of scavengers, human or non-human, Sammy?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:09 pmBut go ahead and believe everything the New York Times reports, if it comforts you.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:10 pmHickox has spoken to the press about what she hoped to accomplish in resisting the quarantine.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:19 pmWarEagle82 (b18ccf) — 11/2/2014 @ 4:22 pm
But she does!
She was a disease detective for the CDC (which probably actuall means something like field researcher, but she should know the consensus.)
And I do – that is I know enough, and enough to judge.
Too many people, though, have drunk the Kool-Aid about this. There is no basis for any of this fear. A judge agreed with that, too.
You won’t find doctors or nurses that support the quarantines, except maybe some that start to drink the Kool-Aid themselves.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:28 pm60- Un.uckingBelievable.
askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:30 pmListen, there have been outbreaks before. They know how to contain it, and they contained it before, and it’s not with 21-day quarantines for people who don’t show any symptoms.
They only want to keep track of the people most at risk until the time has passed when they might show symptoms – and to be contagious you have to wait longer.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/31/us/kaci-hickox-nurse-under-ebola-quarantine-takes-bike-ride-defying-maine-officials.html
But instead people are relying on…I don’t know who.
Who are these Governors relying on??
People are looking at the CDC guidelines and seeing that they imply contradictory things, and assuming that when the CDC is being too extreme, that’s exactly the right thing to do.
The truth is, they should never have burned all of Mr. Duncan’s clothes, and Mr. Duncan himself, and removed all the contents of the apartment he was in. It wasn’t logical, it wasn’t called for, and something like this has never been necessary to stamp it out.
And then in Louisiana the Attorney General there went into court and sued to prevent a medical waste dump from accepting burned ebola waste. Already burned!! A depository for medical waste! What is this, radioactive?
West Africa is a separate problem, but there it is at a massive scale.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:31 pmSammy,
Do you see that there is a difference between reasonable caution and hysteria?
Dana (9ec88a) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:33 pm57. That’s a serious problem – for human dignity, and for the families of the persons involved, but that’s not a disease problem.
This is not anthrax spores.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:34 pmShe is a selfish narcissist. No wonder she hearts Obama.
JD (285732) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:37 pmSammy, you don’t cease and desist, I won’t be able to resist goin’ medieval on yo ass.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:40 pm“You won’t find doctors or nurses that support the quarantines, except maybe some that start to drink the Kool-Aid themselves.”
Sammy asserts this, though a Nobel prize winning doctor said the exact opposite.
Sammah – you are making everyone dummerer.
JD (285732) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:41 pm“You won’t find doctors or nurses that support the quarantines, except maybe some that start to drink the Kool-Aid themselves.”
Heads I win, tails, you lose!
Any counterexample is a Koolaid drinker. Never mind who is Captain KoolAid.
Kevin M (d91a9f) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:45 pmDana (9ec88a) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:33 pm
Yes, but people don’t seem to be able to tell the difference.
The CDC guidelines are reasonable caution, and you could add an ebola test or two maybe.
Isolation of people who have at most a 1% chance of coming down with ebola, and it isn’t higher, before they come down with ebola, because they might have been infected, is hysteria.
There is no reason to believe such a person can or would infect even one person before going to a hospital. The markers used by the CDC for concern (fever or other symptoms) seem to be universally accepted as valid.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:46 pmSammy, do you believe the doctor in this post who believed self-quarantine was to be the most prudent choice was reacting hysterically or reasonably?
Dana (8e74ce) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:58 pmSammeh is just trolling.
Or, rather, the gerbil that runs on that wheel in his head that powers his fingers so he can can work a keyboard is trolling.
Steve57 (c1c90e) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:01 pmC’mon, folks. Teh Sammeh always does this. There is a wiring difference in his brain.
Kindest view: he is just a contrarian without an Obama-ian smidgeon of self-awareness.
I think what he does—and he is a smart fellow—is confuse his knee jerk reaction with considered thought and background reading.
This has been seen again and again with his posts.
So either (a) he is “neurodiverse” as the saying goes in academia or (b) is a remarkable trollbot.
But, sad to say, when he is in this mood, there is no reason to take him seriously.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:08 pmJD @67
I found it,
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/10/christies_quarantine_policy_attacked_by_aclu_cdc_and_even_the_un_is_embraced_by_2011_nobel_prize_win.html
He came out in favor of this because of the possibility that asymptomatic people maybe could transmit the disease.
But if so, they should show a positive ebola test.
When he says we don’t have the numbers to back it up, that means the history of well documebned ebola cases isn’t long enough, or the research with monkeys doesn’t have enough cases, or he personally does not know enough about ebola, to say it is impossible – and he reasons why should it be impossible, rather than unlikely??
But the history of ebola is the opposite. Even people with fever, like Dr. Brantly, don’t always show a positive ebola test, and Beutner is assuming that you can’t be infectious without having enough virus to have a positive ebola test, the way I read this, so they would not be infectious at that stage. (if they have a normal immune system, anyway. That may be one important caveat.)
What we’re left with is the small possibility that somebody could be infectious before symptoms develop – and also that they would not report it immediately, so it would be even later that the isolation would happen.
I myself conceded this. I compared this to a bell curve with almost all of the period of possible contagiousness being to the right of a line where someone develops symptoms. In fact, it’s well to the right of that line.
There is a small possibility that there could be an minuscule (like 1 in 1,000) possibility of transmitting ebola before it was noticed.
It is just that this kind of a possibility should be disregarded. It’s too small. People take bigger risks all the time.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:10 pmHeck, I remember when Teh Sammeh was insistent that folks with a specific blood type were immune to cholera. His words.
When I showed with journal articles that this was nonsense, he didn’t say a word. Not “hey, I was wrong,” let alone “Well, I misunderstood an article outside my own expertise.” Not Our Sammeh.
Again, personal opinion rules the fellow, not fact.
He’ll pick another topic to claim expertise in soon, never fear.
But do remember that, um, his “facts” are seldom as airtight as he claims.
Sort of sad, really.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:15 pm70. Dana (8e74ce) — 11/2/2014 @ 5:58 pm
Sammy, do you believe the doctor in this post who believed self-quarantine was to be the most prudent choice was reacting hysterically or reasonably?
He’s not being prudent. He’s going too farm and it is unnecessary and he should not make himself unhappy.
He himself said it was
1) to allay public (mostly irrational) fears
And
2) his own concerns about the faint possibility of infecting others.
But if the latetr, why should it end after 21 days.
This is much closer to hysteria than somethig prudent. He’s got a 1% chance of having ebola, which is even less after 10 or 12 days, and a less than 1% chance of infecting anyone else if he does. (if it was higher, we would know it)
So he’s guarding against a 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100,000 chance, if it is that great. If he needed to do anything, it would be to get an ebola test. Maybe two of them 3 or 4 days apart. That sound simpler than a quarantine.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:20 pm“The CDC guidelines are reasonable caution”
Sammy – The guidelines as of which day? They seem to move around a lot as has been pointed out to you over the past month.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:31 pmSammy – How did Kaci get back into the U.S., commercial or charter? The CDC guideline last month would have said she should not flown commercial.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:44 pm@ Sammy,
Do you understand that a medical doctor who has worked on over 120 Ebola cases has determined that it is indeed prudent for him to do this? And that he himself believes it is necessary? There is nothing in the report that would lead me – or you – to believe that he is unhappy about his decision, Sammy. Instead, from what I gathered, he seemed not only at peace with his decision, but anticipated the quarantine from the get- go. As he himself stated: “But we recognized in advance that it would be essential to be separated on the return. It’s an extension of the deployment to me.” Does that sound like someone unhappy or who was forced into a decision that he didn’t want?
You need to ask yourself, Sammy, why are you fighting so hard to disagree with a medical professional who has been on the front lines fighting the disease. Why do you need to be right in this?
Dana (8e74ce) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:45 pm74. Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:15 pm
Heck, I remember when Teh Sammeh was insistent that folks with a specific blood type were immune to cholera. His words.
When I showed with journal articles that this was nonsense, he didn’t say a word. Not “hey, I was wrong,” let alone “Well, I misunderstood an article outside my own expertise.” Not Our Sammeh.
That was in this thread: https://patterico.com/2014/10/02/people-possibly-in-contact-with-ebola-patient-goes-from-12-to-18-to-80-to-100/
I didn’t misunderstand anything. That came from Matt Ridley, in the book Genome, not from an artivle. And that’s what pretty much Matt Ridley said. Albeit, I had slightly misremembered it and he had only said virtually immune.
He had written:
Since the essence of cholera and the dangerousness of cholera is the diarrhea, that people with type AB blood were immune to cholera was pretty much what he said.
And you said you were very familiar with Matt Ridley’s wwork and that he is a swell guy, as well as being the “5th Viscount Ridley.” Well, you mistype familiar.
And I think I did say that it was wrong – Matt Ridley went further than the evidence – they could get cholera, but it wasn’t the same illness in people with type AB blood.
I traced it to this:
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/121/6/791
And apparently the story is that the blood type of 1346 patients was determined of whom 682 had a diarrheal illness that could be associated with a specific pathogen, and the remaining 664 were controls.
Whatever the number of those 682 who had severe cholera, 0% had type AB blood. 7% of 682 means you should have expected that 48 of those with a diarrheal illness should have had type AB blood. Now
I don’t know how many of those 682 diarreal illnesses were cholera and how many of the cholera cases were severe. So whether n = 0 or 1 or 2 or even 3 I don’t know, but 3 would be very hard to round down to 0% as that would have made almost all of those cases cholera and not e-coli or anything that was tested.
The net result was maybe a very few people with Type AB blood could get severe cholera.
You gave me an article: http://iai.asm.org/content/73/11/7422.long
And you said:
SJ> Note that type Os do indeed suffer from increased symptoms. But ABs do indeed get cholera, complete with diarrhea, Sammy.
And I said:
And that was the end of it.
The one article that you referenced, said nothing about Type AB blood. It said people with Type O blood got worse cases of cholera, but they were less likely to get it in the first place.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:47 pmOh, Dana, you answered the question you put to Sammeh with your final sentence.
Notice, again, that when he is proven dead wrong, he still won’t own it.
It’s all personal.
There is lots of space for discussion and difference regarding this topic. But it needs to be based on actual thought, not knee jerk contrarianism.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:48 pmTalk about taking chances:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-nik-wallenda-chicago-1103-20141102-story.html
But he’s safe! And he didn’t hurt anyone. Or sue anyone. The slideshow with the link has some very nice pics of the Chicago skyline tonight.
elissa (e41694) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:49 pmdaleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:44 pm
I don’t believe that’s correct.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:49 pmOh Sammeh…you didn’t even read the articles I linked, did you? You do know what I do for a living, right?
You are clinging to an overstatement by Matt Ridley.
And—sorry to shout: you didn’t look at any of the figure or figure legends in the article, you silly man.
Incidentally, I have friends who know Ridley. Do you want me to have him write to you about your own statements?
Because I can, sir.
You need to let go of this silliness.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:50 pmThis was the best laugh I had this evening truly.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:51 pmIt wasn’t a windy evening really at least not on the ground
happyfeet (e96d71) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:51 pmHoly heck, it took me a minute to find a nice summary for nonscientists:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120827074157.htm
Yes, type O folk are more sensitive (and the reason why is interesting, as with CRC alleles and HIV). You repeatedly claim that ABs are immune to cholera based on Ridley’s overstatement.
Time to read some literature, Sammeh. And to admit it when you are wrong.
Because it kinds of makes all of your statements a bit suspect.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:55 pm“I don’t believe that’s correct.”
Sammy – Yes it was. If you had been exposed to ebola, they wanted you to arrange a charter or not come. You need to check your facts before just parroting the latest nonsense you make up or the NY Times writes.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:56 pmSimon Jester (c8876d) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:55 pm
You repeatedly claim that ABs are immune to cholera based on Ridley’s overstatement.
Ridley claimed they would not get the diarreah, and thus would not die from cholera. That seems to be very close to correct.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 7:03 pmIf you had been exposed to ebola, they wanted you to arrange a charter or not come.
Wasn’t that if you had an actual case of ebola, not that you possibly might have it?
Where is the link?
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 7:04 pmGiven the CDC’s ever-changing advisories and protocols, it seems safe to say we don’t know enough.
In the end, we’re left with one little word: respect. Dr. Buck understands it; the person contrasted apparently does not.
AZ_Langer (a65cb5) — 11/2/2014 @ 7:06 pm@ Simon Jester (c8876d) — 11/2/2014 @ 6:50 pm
No, what do you do for a living?
The article distinguished between Type O blood and other types. It did not distinguish between Types A, B and AB. There was nothing the least that contradicted what Ridley wrote.
Yes. I am not sure how to arrange that, but yes. And we could publish it here, if that is all right with Patterico wants, or put a link to it. I’d certainly be happy to have him clarify this.
Now this started with my referencing an article in the Guardian and saying:
22. Also, this discovery doesn’t seem to lead anywhere, unless you are proposing maybe to develop a genetic test to discover people who can’t be harmed by ebola, like there are people who can’t get the black death, or even AIDS, or cholera (for cholera, anyone with type AB blood)
Note: It actually turns out that Matt Ridley had actyally said people with type B blood are virtually immune to cholera, not that they couldn’t get it at all, and what looks like his underlying source was apparently a little bit less strong, and indicated only that they didn’t get severe cases, and I noted that 0% could possibly really be not zero, but 1 or 2 or even 3 cases.
But Matt Ridley can clear this up, maybe.
Sammy Finkelman (7bb55f) — 11/2/2014 @ 7:23 pm“Where is the link?”
Sammy – Back where I originally posted it.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 11/2/2014 @ 7:39 pmSammy @ 91 reminds me that in spite of his stubbornness or opinions he is absolutely convinced are right, that he is genuine and not a troll. I hope you are able to have your colleague clarify some points, Simon Jester. Anyway, I like Sammy Finkleman and am glad he is a regular here.
Dana (8e74ce) — 11/2/2014 @ 7:42 pmI would agree that Sammy is not a “troll”.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/2/2014 @ 7:48 pmI also believe Sammy’s ability to take information, organize it, and come up with rational conclusions is limited. Somewhere along the way he seems to take information, and make a wrong turn and then refuses to listen to directions from people who have already been down the road.
Dana, I like Sammy, too. Which is why for his sake I have to believe he’s trolling @60 when he says the Ebola nurse does know everything.
Steve57 (c1c90e) — 11/2/2014 @ 8:02 pmSammah – where did you get your 1/100 or 1/1000 numbers you threw out upthread?
JD (285732) — 11/2/2014 @ 8:04 pmSammah usually starts with “facts” but then usually goes promptly off the rails in how he interprets them. Surest sign that nonsense is heading your way is when he starts with a Maybe this or maybe that, which eventually morphs from random speculation into a theory he will never relinquish.
JD (285732) — 11/2/2014 @ 8:08 pmThis has nothing to do with liking or disliking Sammy Finkelman. His comments are very difficult to decipher and rarely add to the discussion, unless you like to wade through misinformation to get to the nuggets that randomly appear. He clearly means well and tries hard, and I know it isn’t his fault. His comments can even be helpful in the limited sense that others learn from reading comments that try to correct his misstatements, but it’s hard to wade through it all … let alone to bother responding.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/2/2014 @ 8:32 pmOh my God. Sammy is beyond help. He refuses to admit he didn’t read any links.
He just doubles and triples down.
What a waste.
Simon Jester (966f75) — 11/2/2014 @ 8:33 pmDRJ remains so very kind. It may not matter, but you are in my family’s prayers.
You have always been such a great example to me, truly.
I just wanted to say that, ma’am.
Simon Jester (966f75) — 11/2/2014 @ 8:36 pmSimon Jester,
He has asked for your colleague to respond and clarify. I take that as a positive.
I want people to be patient with me. So I want to extend that to others.
Dana (8e74ce) — 11/2/2014 @ 8:57 pmI regret my comment at 93. I didn’t intend for it to be a jumping off platform to pick apart a commenter. My apologies.
Moving on…
Dana (8e74ce) — 11/2/2014 @ 9:00 pmYour family’s prayers are a great blessing, Simon. Thank you all.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/2/2014 @ 9:00 pmMy comment was not in response to your comment, Dana. This is a continuing concern for me and has been for the past year.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/2/2014 @ 9:02 pmI would feel differently if he had read any of the papers I suggested. He clings to MR’s popular science representation, when I provided him with flipping data. He will argue no matter what, changing goalposts and misrepresenting things willy nilly. I have never seen him be polite, nor admit error.
You have great patience, and enviable style.
He is a silly and strange individual. I wsh him well. But he isn’t interested in learning. He already knows everything.
Simon Jester (966f75) — 11/2/2014 @ 9:04 pmUSA Today 8/28/2014:
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/2/2014 @ 9:16 pmInteresting statement from the CDC, isn’t it? Apparently the rule to fly charter is due to concerns about health care workers “timely access” to needed care, but not about infecting other people on a flight. I’d like to think the CDC was also concerned about safety for commercial flight passengers but just didn’t want to say it, because it might cause panic or put the CDC in a box where it had to fly all workers on charter flights.
Anyway, here are the CDC’s 11/1/2014 guidelines on Interim U.S. Guidance for Monitoring and Movement of Persons with Potential Ebola Virus Exposure that cover things like quarantines and charter flights. Given past history, it will probably be updated soon.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/2/2014 @ 9:30 pmRe: #60 Hickox has spoken to the press about what she hoped to accomplish
It says Nurse Kaci moved to Maine in August of this year. Previous to that she spent the majority of her time tending to malaria patients in all corners of the world.
She’s a real honest to goodness saint, handing out the metamucil and mosquito netting to Sudanese orphans, Burmesians, Indonesians. All over the place.
Course being an a$$hole, I’d point out that malaria isn’t contagious or untreatable, and we have our fair share of it here already.
It’s only recently she was goaded into ebola crusading by an un-named “friend” via email.
Having Kaci move to your neighborhood is a bit like the local school district hiring Evel Knievel to drive the school bus. She’s reckless with her own health, and now with the health of a town of strangers, she moved to just a minute ago. No wonder she doesn’t care about their opinion, what happens to them.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:05 pmI’d just like to remind Sammy that that big paper on Ebola and best practices was written by a large number of doctors, many of whom died from Ebola before it was released. They literally wrote the book on best practices for Ebola but it still killed a bunch of them. I assume more had it than died since I’ve generally heard 60-80% mortality rate for it. So there’s a lot to be said for the “abundance of caution” route when even people who specialize in Ebola research can’t consistently prevent catching it.
Eidolon (3cda35) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:54 pmDoes Sammy ever shut up?!
Brooks (f56785) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:02 pmEvil Knievel was perfectly fine driving buses, he just wasn’t too good when jumping his m/c over them.
askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:15 pmThe problem with the CDC is that they refuse to admit that though they have many known unknowns, their unknown unknowns are perhaps not infinite, but at least legion.
askeptic (efcf22) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:18 pmBut do remember that, um, his “facts” are seldom as airtight as he claims.
Sort of sad, really.
“Sammah” is interesting because he reflects the mindset of a not-minor percentage of Americans out there — including certainly the guy in the Oval Office and within super-politicized agencies like the CDC or IR — most of them staunch Democrats. Or the people who get into a tizzy about global warming and man-made CO2, while responding in just the opposite fashion towards Ebola—perhaps because in their mind, since that virus emanates from Africa, it’s therefore not nice to ostracize anything from the Third World?
Mark (c160ec) — 11/2/2014 @ 11:39 pm109. Eidolon (3cda35) — 11/2/2014 @ 10:54 pm
The paper where the doctors died before it was released, was not about on best practices but about this new epidemic. They said it was a different variant than the one in the Congo and the two had probably diverged around 2004.
This is the story of the study:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_epidemic_in_West_Africa
These doctors also had little experiewce with ebola, since it hadn’t been in their countries.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/3/2014 @ 9:52 amIt means that somebody is overlooking something. This did not happen till this year.
What that doesn’t mean is that something that used to happen before, which is contacts of ebola patients wandering around loose until they are found to be sick, is a big method of spread. It may become so if diagnosis is delayed..
It’s got to be something that didn’t happen before, and NOT isolating people who only had contact with ebola patients but aren’t sick yet isn’t one of them (unless it is a question of the law of averages)
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/3/2014 @ 10:04 amAnother doctor died now in Sierre Leone:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/doctor-dies-ebola-sierra-leone-n239971
Why they are getting infected, I don’t know.
It is possible, that when that the ebola precautions aren’t good enough, and where are many ebola cases around, the law of averages catches up with people.
Or maybe some protocols are extremely difficult to follow. They suspect, for instance, that maybe people can get ebola on their hands while taking off protective gear. And that person could tarnsfer the ebola to a second health care worker without ingesting any themselves.
It is also possible that there’s a method of transmission that’s been overlooked. Paper Currency?
It is also possible that the problem is merely due to ebola patients not being identified quickly enough, or not getting isolated quickly enough, and people touching things that ebola patients brought to the clinics have contaminated.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/3/2014 @ 10:05 amCDC about charter flights for helth care workers, latest revision, November 1:
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/exposure/monitoring-and-movement-of-persons-with-exposure.html
1. People who treated ebola patients are low risk.
Now the record seems to show about 1% – they probably think it is lower.
2. Direct active monitoring allows commercial airplane flights:
So no ban on commercial flights, just so long as you can be absolutely certain they are taking and reporting their temperature twice a day (with the temperature taking being witnessed by another person once a day)
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 11/3/2014 @ 12:49 pmSammy,
I linked that CDC report in comment 107. You’re not interested in anyone’s opinion but your own, are you?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 11/3/2014 @ 1:06 pmDRJ,
Refer to Sammy as Babylon Sammy from now on I am. Babylon Sammy just keeps Babbling on!
verb (used without object), babbled, babbling.
Yoda (d89de1) — 11/4/2014 @ 1:35 am1.
to utter sounds or words imperfectly, indistinctly, or without meaning.
2.
to talk idly, irrationally, excessively, or foolishly; chatter or prattle.
3.
to make a continuous, murmuring sound.
verb (used with object), babbled, babbling.
4.
to utter in an incoherent, foolish, or meaningless fashion.
5.
to reveal foolishly or thoughtlessly:
to babble a secret.
noun
6.
inarticulate or imperfect speech.
7.
foolish, meaningless, or incoherent speech; prattle.