Patterico's Pontifications

10/27/2021

Lesbians Being Pilloried for Refusing Sex with “Women” Who Turn Out to Have Male Equipment

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



BBC:

“I’ve had someone saying they would rather kill me than Hitler,” says 24-year-old Jennie*.

“They said they would strangle me with a belt if they were in a room with me and Hitler. That was so bizarrely violent, just because I won’t have sex with trans women.”

Jennie is a lesbian woman. She says she is only sexually attracted to women who are biologically female and have vaginas. She therefore only has sex and relationships with women who are biologically female.

Jennie doesn’t think this should be controversial, but not everyone agrees. She has been described as transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a “terf” – a trans exclusionary radical feminist.

“There’s a common argument that they try and use that goes ‘What if you met a woman in a bar and she’s really beautiful and you got on really well and you went home and you discovered that she has a penis? Would you just not be interested?'” says Jennie, who lives in London and works in fashion.

“Yes, because even if someone seems attractive at first you can go off them. I just don’t possess the capacity to be sexually attracted to people who are biologically male, regardless of how they identify.”

My question is: why is this an issue only for lesbians? If society is forced to accept the notion that “trans women” are women in every sense, why isn’t a guy who takes a woman home to have sex, but balks upon finding out that the “woman” has a penis, a horrible transphobic monster?

I wonder how the trans community would respond. The more sensible ones would probably affirm that everyone is allowed to have sex or refuse sex with any consensual adult partner they like. But if you were ready to have sex and changed your mind only because of what you found when you undressed your prospective sex partner, aren’t you a terrible bigot by today’s standards?

67 Responses to “Lesbians Being Pilloried for Refusing Sex with “Women” Who Turn Out to Have Male Equipment”

  1. My question is: why is this an issue only for lesbians?

    It’s not. The news are full of stories about males dressing up as women in pursuit of young men, and boys, and getting beat up and even killed for it.

    nk (1d9030)

  2. I know of people who won’t have sex with people of certain races, or their own race, won’t have same-sex sex, won’t have sex with older people, won’t have sex with blondes, etc.

    What is the world coming to, when people’s sexual preferences are subject to criticism, not to mention threats of violence? I though gay bashing was bad, but this takes it to a whole new level. H8ters gotta h8.

    Is it going to be a new Scout badge to have had sex with LGBTQ+? Or a high-school graduation requirement?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. allowed to have sex or refuse sex with any consensual adult partner they like

    “consensual”: They keep using that word…

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  4. Also, see “The Crying Game.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  5. why isn’t a guy who takes a woman home to have sex, but balks upon finding out that the “woman” has a penis, a horrible transphobic monster?

    This has already been a thing. Trans people have already made a big deal about straight men not wanting to have sex with a person they thought was a straight woman but wasn’t. They’ve made a big deal about the much simpler situation of a straight man saying up front they aren’t interested.

    The trans communities response so far seems to be that a person should be able to represent themselves as a given gender until the last possible moment, i.e. not identifying as trans up front. Then any issue the other person has after the reveal is just hate filled phobia.

    frosty (f27e97)

  6. “My question is: why is this an issue only for lesbians?”

    Because TRANS-EXCLUSIONARY-RADICAL-FEMINIST (TERF) is a dirty word and lesbians (masculinized women) are the closest people to ‘adults enforcing basic social standards’ on the left, so they’re going to be the primary bullying subjects of their fresh new sinister Type A men in dresses optimizing their Diversity Points and their position on the Victim scale with hostile takeovers and harassment of political enemies.

    But whatever, these lefty-witches spent decades performing the legal and political rituals to call this demon up, therefore let it ravage them till they repent their sins against society and normality. “I only wanted to get back at the oppressive heteronormative society!!!” is not an excuse for calling up horrors from the puzzle box.

    “If society is forced to accept the notion that “trans women” are women in every sense, why isn’t a guy who takes a woman home to have sex, but balks upon finding out that the “woman” has a penis, a horrible transphobic monster?”

    The screeching about that is mostly among far-lefty twitter accounts that you’ve probably already blocked, but it’s going to get loud enough to affect administration sooner rather than later.

    “I wonder how the trans community would respond.”

    There is no ‘trans community,’ and if there was I wouldn’t take it seriously, since becoming ‘trans’ is surgically removing yourself from one of the primary basic community identifiers and almost always ends up being subsumed into whatever individual pharmaceutical, sexual, or consumerist addiction is popular in the moment.

    Granted, most of the men who become “trans” typically do so AFTER they’ve already progressively alienated themselves from society via success/porn/celebrity and media careers.

    “It’s not. The news are full of stories about males dressing up as women in pursuit of young men, and boys, and getting beat up and even killed for it.”

    Those are called “gay men” or “twinks” in common parlance and the typical result is absolutely justifiable given the social and relational damage such encounters with unstable personalities inevitably invite, not to mention diseases that are actually dangerous.

    Pinhead Containment Service (1cf653)

  7. #5, that’s truly awful…and ripe to exploited by those who cause harm on a mass scale.

    urbanleftbehind (bb70b8)

  8. Also, weird tie in to the recent death of Peter Scolari (RIP), but someone on a Insta-Disqus referred to his and Tom Hank’s characters on Bosom Buddies as transvestites. Did/does that term extend to male cross dressers who do not have their original sexual organs removed?

    urbanleftbehind (bb70b8)

  9. urbanleftbehind (bb70b8) — 10/27/2021 @ 10:13 am

    I think this can only be offically answered by the language police.

    When I was younger the slang term for transvestites was tranny. If I had to guess I’d say trans is/was always meant as slang for transgender and not transvestite.

    frosty (f27e97)

  10. The trans communities response so far seems to be that a person should be able to represent themselves as a given gender until the last possible moment, i.e. not identifying as trans up front. Then any issue the other person has after the reveal is just hate filled phobia.

    Mandatory fantasy fulfillment. How long until there’s a law?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  11. Did/does that term extend to male cross dressers who do not have their original sexual organs removed?

    Transvestite MEANS “cross-dresser”, so it’s not any extension whatsoever. It does NOT extend to those that have taken surgical steps.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. Also, weird tie in to the recent death of Peter Scolari (RIP), but someone on a Insta-Disqus referred to his and Tom Hank’s characters on Bosom Buddies as transvestites.

    Not that I watched the show, but their characters dressed as women not for pleasure but to live in a female-only hotel. Comedy ensues.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  13. The basic supposition here is that one is obligated to judge the book by its cover.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. “But if you were ready to have sex and changed your mind only because of what you found when you undressed your prospective sex partner, aren’t you a terrible bigot by today’s standards?”

    I guess that depends on whose standards. Most of society…I think….would think that it is incumbent upon the trans to lay everything on the table (hopefully not literally) before engaging in intimacy….and that no one is obliged to have sex with anyone. Only in twisted territories is there confusion about sexes.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  15. Seems to me our host could have called this post:

    Yet Even More Low Hanging Fruit

    I can only respond to something like this with a bad rude joke. Discussion — I mean, how can you?

    I wonder if the average everyday Woke Warrior realizes that it might be hard to sell their science on climate and COVID when they so fervently deny basic science on trans issues. Maybe that’s why this issue is so fraught in the culture wars. When people look stupid, they start acting very totalitarian.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  16. The more sensible ones would probably affirm that everyone is allowed to have sex or refuse sex with any consensual adult partner they like.

    Some have trouble with the question of dating alone, let alone intimacy.

    The Atlantic delves into Super Straight:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/618498/

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  17. But but sex and gender are just social constructs, based on irrational religious prejudice about randomly-occurring body parts!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  18. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/27/2021 @ 10:53 am

    Mandatory fantasy fulfillment. How long until there’s a law?

    I’m boggled by how this is a thing after so many years of no means no. I seem to remember debates over whether a woman can change her mind during sex at which point it becomes rape. And any question of that just means you are pro-rape.

    I’ve heard the college intro’s on consent have gotten fairly extreme. I wonder how they are going to incorporate this.

    frosty (f27e97)

  19. What they don’t get is that, to some people, “sex” is a biological act, not a social one, and so to them, biology matters.

    So, bio-straight (or bio-lesbian, etc) is a better description that “super-straight” which implies a superior straightness without conveying the real message.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. I wonder how they are going to incorporate this.

    Gender-reveal is after

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. Speaking of weird and gender bending, somebody check on male Dana:

    https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/education/article255325606.html

    urbanleftbehind (bb70b8)

  22. How isn’t this woke-trans efforts anything else but hardcore misogyny?

    whembly (123289)

  23. State Department Issues First Gender-Neutral Passport

    The U.S. special diplomatic envoy for LGBTQ rights, Jessica Stern, told the Associated Press that the new option for the document reflects the “lived reality” that increasingly more people identify with a gender different than the one they were assigned at birth.

    “assigned at birth” — this is Newspeak to imply that “reassignment” is a proper course of action to correct a bureaucratic mistake. Who is this guy doing the assigning anyway? Some cis-gendered old white guy?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  24. If their dna has male coding, I’m not interested in them sexually, but I’m old fashioned and think I should be able to decide on sexual partners without having a sexual bureaucracy insisting on what my sexual diversity, as they define it, should be.
    Can you imagine?
    What if I go into my appointment at the Office of Sexual Practices for permission and an approved partner, and they match me up with a furry named Beto? The choice is given: Beto the furry, or the re-education camp. Easy choice right? Re-education camp. But not so fast… what parts of me are going to be re-educated? would be a question to be asked.

    steveg (e81d76)

  25. Hat tip for choosing “pilloried”
    Edmund Burke’s article made clear, the pillory a typical punishment in cases of sexual crimes. This connection received ample attention from writers and artists of the century who were transfixed by notable cases of criminals pilloried for sexual offences.

    steveg (e81d76)

  26. “Edmund Burke’s article made clear, the pillory a typical punishment in cases of sexual crimes. This connection received ample attention from writers and artists of the century who were transfixed by notable cases of criminals pilloried for sexual offences.”

    I should have put that line in quotes. Apologies to Patrick Cooper

    steveg (e81d76)

  27. I wouldn’t mind seeing a return to the pillory or the stocks in some misdemeanor cases, such as drunk driving, but I do worry that it would end up being used for misgendering or badthought.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  28. “But if you were ready to have sex and changed your mind only because of what you found when you undressed your prospective sex partner, aren’t you a terrible bigot by today’s standards?”

    I thought you were a domestic terrorist.

    Ted Cruz attempting to insert sanity while at the same time exposing Biden admin. incompetence/corruption:

    https://twitter.com/dannydeurbina/status/1453421181596487683?s=21

    Obudman (97e6be)

  29. Conservatives typically fight change. Liberals and the young are more likely to embrace change but they aren’t always on the same page in how much change to embrace or how quickly. They generally end up in the same place but not always at the same time.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  30. This isn’t about change, this is about power.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. Well, I’m not dumb but I can’t understand
    Why she walked like a woman but talked like a man

    “Lola” by The Kinks was released 51 years ago.

    nk (1d9030)

  32. Forgive the crudity, but it seems to me that if you don’t like d!ck then you don’t like d!ck and if you don’t like vag you don’t like vag, regardless of the gender of the person it may be attached to.

    Nic (896fdf)

  33. Well, I’m not dumb and I do understand that they now have one of their own as the bossy-boss-boss of the United States Public Health Service. The boss of the CDC, FDA, NIH, Surgeon General, and others. Thanks, Lysenko Obama!

    nk (1d9030)

  34. Jennie should have noticed his adams apple.

    mg (8cbc69)

  35. @33

    They start with an assumption that plumbing doesn’t matter, and all kinds of nonsense flows from that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  36. Everyone wants to simplify something that is really probably a few different kinds of complex interactions between biology and social structure.

    Nic (896fdf)

  37. follow the science

    JF (e1156d)

  38. How bout this for simplification – If you have a penis and testicles you be a male.

    mg (8cbc69)

  39. It wasn’t that long ago Obama said marriage was for one man and one woman.

    A lot of our methods of discussing issues prioritize the most radical, the most surprising, the ideas that get the most negative responses, and I think that’s creating a lot of instability in culture and leadership.

    Most of us are nice to others, want to be tolerant, want to lean on the side of caution, and that’s creating a lot of hesitance on one end of all tolerance debates. Don’t want to get cancelled for suggesting someone’s too young to change their gender, or perhaps they don’t really need to do that and some other issue is going on.

    Dustin (150498)

  40. You totally missed that “Straight men that won’t date trans women are transphobic” thing accidentally started by Laverne Cox 4 years ago I guess.

    Xmas (e2b772)

  41. Agreed Dustin.

    It’s all about moving the Overton Window.

    NJRob (b84e45)

  42. Even with the “complete” transsexuals, they are asking people to accept a semi-healed wound as sexually appealing. And then … and then … they accuse the people who do not, male or female, of being “genital fetishists”! Which is a lot chutzpah, you have to admit.

    But then, there are people who think that a couple of billion of Asian men are fetishists because they are attracted to Asian women. There’s no idea so weird or so illogical that it won’t get some people mindlessly nodding along.

    nk (1d9030)

  43. All I can say is that I am glad I am too old and too married to worry about this problem. Wouldn’t want to commit a thought crime after having too many at the bar.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  44. happyfeet was made for this topic.

    steveg (e81d76)

  45. Our Windy City barrister wrote:

    My question is: why is this an issue only for lesbians?

    It’s not. The news are full of stories about males dressing up as women in pursuit of young men, and boys, and getting beat up and even killed for it.

    This is the dirty little secret that the left try to hide. The left complain about ‘violence’ and even ‘murder’ against ‘trans women of color,’ but refuse to tell the whole truth: the vast majority of ‘trans women of color’ who have been murdered were working as prostitutes, and they were murdered because they enticed some drunk guy into paying for sex, and when he realized that he had already had some sex with a man male, normally fellatio, he reacted violently to it.

    If a person consents to sex with a woman, whether paid or otherwise, and during commission of said sex he discovers that the woman with whom he thought he was having sex wasn’t a woman at all, he has been raped!

    Is it surprising that a rape victim would react violently?

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (61384a)

  46. Mr Liberty wrote:

    “But if you were ready to have sex and changed your mind only because of what you found when you undressed your prospective sex partner, aren’t you a terrible bigot by today’s standards?”

    I guess that depends on whose standards. Most of society…I think….would think that it is incumbent upon the trans to lay everything on the table (hopefully not literally) before engaging in intimacy….and that no one is obliged to have sex with anyone. Only in twisted territories is there confusion about sexes.

    It used to be a felony in the Pyrite State to not disclose to a new sexual partner if you were HIV+ prior to sex occurring. The idiots that residents in the state of my birth elected have now decided that such is not that bad, and it’s no longer a felony. Californians, through their elected officials have decided that everyone must be vaccinated and masked to protect the transmission of a disease with a 99% survival rate, to the exclusion from society and, in many cases, employment, for non-compliance, but that the willful transmission of a disease that is universally fatal unless arrested with a lifelong regimen of very expensive drugs ain’t so bad.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (61384a)

  47. It wasn’t that long ago Obama said marriage was for one man and one woman.

    I will live to see plural marriages legal in some states.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. There was a movie: “The Scent of a Woman” …

    Assume an adult male has fully transitioned as far as medically possible (today) in order to resemble/emulate/present as female. Surgery, pharmacy, cosmetics, costuming, behavioral coaching …

    How does “she” smell to another human who likes adult females and is seeking sexual pleasures from a adult female when the emulation of the desired person is only a nose-length away?

    Is there any perfume — or deodorant for “private parts” as the TV commercials now offer — that fools a biological selection mechanism that has evolved into our relationships since sex introduced itself into the tide pools of Earthly life?

    pouncer (6c33cf)

  49. I guess the problem I have with the BBC article is that it’s attempting to create an over-generalization. Do in fact most trans support the idea of insisting that genitalia should not matter for someone deciding about intimacy? I don’t know but personally would doubt that conclusion. Are there some ideological extremists that will use this to make a statement? Certainly. Are there trans-supporters who would do similarly? Sure. The journalism question is how prevalent is the view. Sitting by itself, the story tends to suggest that this is a trans position…and that people who differ should be against trans (are they called trannies or is that transvestites only…..thankfully I don’t care enough to research it). So it’s potentially a bit of prejudice peddling.

    AJ_Liberty (a8d121)

  50. 47, another take on that is when white tranny was severely beaten by 2 black females a after being spotted using a McDonalds women’s bathroom in Baltimore circa 2011. This was a seminal case in that community seeking to impose gender neutral bathrooms and dressing rooms. Several conservative websites at the time jumped the gun and declared the incident a heinous hate crime akin to polar bear targeting and white girl bleed alot.

    urbanleftbehind (f460f5)

  51. #51

    Loudon County should hire those two females to do restroom security. They certainly have a knack for it.

    steveg (e81d76)

  52. Mr Liberty wrote:

    The journalism question is how prevalent is the view.

    It appears that the Associated Press Stylebook, as well as the ‘stylebooks’ of all of the other credentialed media sources, require the use of the names and pronouns appropriate to the mentally deranged transgendered person’s claimed sex rather than his real one.

    Twitter has banned ‘deadnaming’ — the referring to a ‘transgendered’ person by his birth name — and ‘misgendering’, and has suspended or permanently banned from the platform people who do something really radical and tell the truth.

    The New York Times gave OpEd page space to ‘transgender’ activist Chad Malloy¹ to claim that Twitter’s ban on ‘deadnamimg’ and ‘misgendering’ actually promotes the Freedom of Speech.

    Of course, the Times also gave OpEd space to Andrew Marantz to write Free Speech Is Killing us.

    ______________________________
    ¹ – Mr Malloy is a biological male who believes he is female, and goes by the name “Parker.”

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (61384a)

  53. Mr g wrote:

    Loudon County should hire those two females to do restroom security. They certainly have a knack for it.

    Perhaps you hadn’t noticed, but the credentialed media have been playing down the ‘transgender’ aspect of the story. The most you get is a mealy-mouthed, “The victim was assaulted in a women’s restroom at Stone Bridge High School by a male allegedly wearing a skirt.”

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (61384a)

  54. @39 You can go with that as a baseline and I imagine you won’t have to deal with anything else, but the biology of gender is more complicated and transgenderism is far more complicated.

    Nic (896fdf)

  55. @55 again, follow the science

    JF (e1156d)

  56. Twitter has banned ‘deadnaming’ — the referring to a ‘transgendered’ person by his birth name

    Joyce Kilmer, Evelyn Waugh, Leslie Howard, George Sand, Sidney Powell, Megan Thee Stallion, …. I’ll call Bruce Caitlyn if that’s what he wants but he’s still a he.

    nk (1d9030)

  57. What we really have is the mentally ill and the socially deviant making their problems other people’s problem, and a large enough segment of society affluent enough and indolent enough to not only tolerate them but to cater to them.

    nk (1d9030)

  58. @56@JF The science doesn’t say what you are implying it says. The science is more complicated than genitals. For most people the genitals match the gender, but that isn’t always the case. Sometimes the chromosomes and the genitals don’t match. Sometimes the hormones don’t match. Sometimes the fetal brain development doesn’t seem to match. And that’s just the biology part of things. There’s also science on the sociological end of the ways we define qualities or interests or character traits by gender that don’t belong to just one gender and how that causes changes in the ways people interact with their own gender identity that can cause internal contradictions. The way that biology interacts with other parts of biology and sociology interacts with itself and biology and sociology interact with each other that complicates the gender situation. The science is neither that genitals determine gender nor that gender exists independent of genitals.

    People like to simplify things that aren’t simple. When you “follow the science” you discover that it isn’t simple.

    Nic (896fdf)

  59. #58

    So we get people in very high positions of influence that check all the diversity boxes and none of the competency and intellectual ones. USA USA USA!

    steveg (e81d76)

  60. A perverted, pervasive offshoot of egalitarianism, or maybe it’s libertarianism, which considers the lowest common denominator to be the ideal, steveg.

    But what really sours my mash is that every day thousands of unmodified men will get turned down for sex by women (most of who are not even lesbians) and nobody wants to do anything about it. (Except maybe Mazie Hirono and all she has done so far is run a survey.) It’s just not fair!

    nk (1d9030)

  61. No offense ment to gay men, but why is the young former Mayor of South Bend (pop. 102,000. 42 Sq miles) the Secretary of Transportation? Its not his Transportation or Administrative acumen.
    He was elected Mayor of South Bend by students at Notre Dame in part because of his sexual orientation

    I’m predicting Kamala Harris comes out as Lesbian after the mid terms, quickly learning that is no longer enough, she will try to fake a transition further down the rabbit hole

    steveg (e81d76)

  62. In my personal case I think a majority of women might go for “unfair, but totally understandable”

    steveg (e81d76)

  63. Nic (896fdf) — 10/28/2021 @ 9:20 pm

    The science is more complicated than genitals. For most people the genitals match the gender, but that isn’t always the case. Sometimes the chromosomes and the genitals don’t match. Sometimes the hormones don’t match. Sometimes the fetal brain development doesn’t seem to match. And that’s just the biology part of things.

    I’m wondering how common that is that it rises to the level of “the science”. I understand that we’re dealing with a spectrum but that doesn’t mean we redefine terms because there are people at the edges of the curve.

    We should also stop using “the science” in place of “the data”.

    frosty (f27e97)

  64. Good stuff, nk.

    mg (8cbc69)

  65. I’m predicting Kamala Harris comes out as Lesbian after the mid terms, quickly learning that is no longer enough, she will try to fake a transition further down the rabbit hole

    You meant to say swearing in – the tell is when she insists on Justice Kagan to administer the oath.

    urbanleftbehind (321612)

  66. @Frosty@64 We don’t really know how common it is. We do know that some of the hormonal stuff is genetic because it’s periodically cropped up in insular populations. But it’s a pretty new area of research and there aren’t really that many transgender people, so the available set of data from a relatively small group of a relatively small group isn’t particularly expansive. Most of our data is from “huh. So this weird thing is happening in this place.” kind of situations or chromosomal studies on prisoners (significant percentage of XYY people). Of the direct trans studies, there do seem to be at least some genetic and/or biological causes since there seem to be some structural brain indicators and in twin studies identical twins are more likely to both be trans than fraternal twins.

    Nic (896fdf)


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