Patterico's Pontifications

10/14/2021

Did School Administrator Instruct Teachers To Balance Holocaust Books With Books That Present An “Opposing” View? (UPDATE ADDED)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 7:48 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Why, yes she did:

A top administrator with the Carroll Independent School District in Southlake advised teachers last week that if they have a book about the Holocaust in their classroom, they should also offer students access to a book from an “opposing” perspective, according to an audio recording obtained by NBC News.

Gina Peddy, the Carroll school district’s executive director of curriculum and instruction, made the comment Friday afternoon during a training session on which books teachers can have in classroom libraries. The training came four days after the Carroll school board, responding to a parent’s complaint, voted to reprimand a fourth grade teacher who had kept an anti-racism book in her classroom.

A Carroll staff member secretly recorded the Friday training and shared the audio with NBC News.

“Just try to remember the concepts of [House Bill] 3979,” Peddy said in the recording, referring to a new Texas law that requires teachers to present multiple perspectives when discussing “widely debated and currently controversial” issues. “And make sure that if you have a book on the Holocaust,” Peddy continued, “that you have one that has an opposing, that has other perspectives.”

“How do you oppose the Holocaust?” one teacher said in response.

“Believe me,” Peddy said. “That’s come up.”

Disagreeing with Peddy’s assessment of the bill and presenting his own opposing perspective was the bill’s author:

State Sen. Bryan Hughes, an East Texas Republican who wrote Senate Bill 3, denied that the law requires teachers to provide opposing views on what he called matters of “good and evil” or to get rid of books that offer only one perspective on the Holocaust.

“That’s not what the bill says,” Hughes said in an interview Wednesday when asked about the Carroll book guidelines. “I’m glad we can have this discussion to help elucidate what the bill says, because that’s not what the bill says.”

[Ed. Pressed for time, but this is part of a larger story that you can read about (and hear the audio of Peddy’s comments) at the above link. ]

UPDATE: Clearly feeling the need for damage control and clarification, the superintendent of Carroll Independent School District issued an apology concerning Gina Peddy’s comments and the bill’s directive:

In a statement shared on the Southlake district’s social media platforms, Ledbetter said the district “[recognizes] there are not two sides of the Holocaust.”

“As the superintendent of schools, I express my sincere apology regarding the online article and news story released today. During the conversations with teachers during last week’s meeting, the comments made were in no way to convey that the Holocaust was anything less than a terrible event in history,” the statement read. “As we continue to work through implementation of [House Bill] 3979, we also understand this bill does not require an opposing viewpoint on historical facts. As a district, we will work to add clarity to our expectations for teachers and once again apologize for any hurt or confusion this has caused.”

–Dana

109 Responses to “Did School Administrator Instruct Teachers To Balance Holocaust Books With Books That Present An “Opposing” View? (UPDATE ADDED)”

  1. Exactly which book holding an opposing view of the Holocaust would you present to students anyway??

    Dana (174549)

  2. the holocaust is a “widely debated and currently controversial” subject only to those who want to dishonestly float ridiculous test cases in order to torpedo the texas law

    JF (e1156d)

  3. a “widely debated and currently controversial” subject

    It’s Texas. They probably meant beans in chili.

    nk (1d9030)

  4. Wow.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  5. The “wow” was for the Dodgers-Giants nailbiter.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  6. Perhaps I don’t have the context here, but this could be a reducio ad absurdum, not an actual suggestion. Of course in this day and age so few people have actual senses of humor, so maybe this kind of ridicule isn’t wise.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  7. a “widely debated and currently controversial” subject

    It’s Texas. They probably meant beans in chili.

    nk (1d9030) — 10/14/2021 @ 9:23 pm

    Or how the Dallas Cowboys are being run.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  8. I also think that Ms. Peddy was being sarcastic, Kevin.

    nk (1d9030)

  9. It’s State Sen. Bryan Hughes, an East Texas Republican who wrote Senate Bill 3, who is being disingenuous. Transparently disingenuous. This is exactly what he intended. Like the abortion anti-law. For the bill to operate in terrorem. Teachers not sure what books are controversial and what would be opposing viewpoints are not letting the kids read any books at all. Which is already happening.

    The Texas State Office Of Approved Books needs to draw up its list and distribute it to all the classrooms as soon as possible. The non-approved books should not be burned right away, though. They should be put into storage until the next winter power outage.

    nk (1d9030)

  10. The teachers are wrong and Sen. Hughes is correct: The teachers are not required to present the other side, the side that defends the Holocaust, IMO. This is the text of the bill:

    Teachers who choose to discuss current events or widely debated and currently controversial issues of public policy or social affairs shall, to the best of their ability, strive to explore such issues from diverse and contending perspectives without giving deference to any one perspective;

    The Holocaust isn’t a current event, it isn’t “widely debated” (because fringie Holocaust deniers don’t count, because there are always fringie deniers out there), and it’s not “currently controversial”. The teachers are off the hook, they’re not required to present an alternative viewpoint. I can understand why an administrator who opposes the bill would use this phony excuse, though. FTR, I oppose the bill because it’s not conservative for state government officials to reach down into local school districts and dictate how teachers should present topics, but this Holocaust example is absurd. And it goes to show once again that Gov. Abbott is not a conservative.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  11. Pressed for time must explain why this was left out:

    “The Gina Peddy in this audio clip isn’t a conservative; she’s the person in charge of implementing Critical Race Theory in Southlake”

    https://twitter.com/conceptualjames/status/1448804188511772673?s=21

    NBC News left that out too, I wonder why.

    Obudman (ee9b82)

  12. Obudman, “culturally responsive teaching” does have the acronym C-R-T, but it’s not that CRT. Maybe that’s why NBC “left that out”.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  13. When I said CRT was a moral panic and that the laws being drafted would prevent and discourage teaching about the Holocaust, slavery, or similar things I was right. Southlake Tx is a very affluent very white very conservative city so it’s not a surprise that it’s starting here.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  14. Paul, I have no faith that Texas courts will agree with you. Nor do I think schools want to fight this on a case by case basis.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  15. Gina Peddy’s Twitter lists here as Executive Director for Curriculum Development and seems fairly professional. As does her Linkdin Profile. Nothing to support what Obudmanns claimed.

    https://twitter.com/gpeddy/status/1417873998189187074?s=21

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  16. This is the same school system that fired a black principle because he took pictures or him and his (white) wife at the beach and shared them on Facebook.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  17. Paul, I have no faith that Texas courts will agree with you. Nor do I think schools want to fight this on a case by case basis.

    I don’t disagree, Time. I don’t have faith about what’s going on in Texas, or trust that there will be a conservative resolution. Speaking of trust, Mr. French relays what he doesn’t trust about the GOP, and I don’t disagree with that either.

    How do I distrust the GOP? Let me count the ways.

    I don’t trust the GOP on election integrity. I do in fact believe that it is infected almost top to bottom by a combination of conspiracists and cowards who would, in fact, try to steal an American election (again).

    I don’t trust the GOP on free speech and civil liberties. It’s a party that’s busy passing state laws that override the free speech rights of private corporations. It advocates speech codes in public schools (and sometimes beyond) to stop the spread of ideas it dislikes. It has dug in its heels in support of qualified immunity, a doctrine that permits public officials to violate the civil rights of its citizens without compensation. And parts of the GOP are digging in their heels against property rights, economic freedom, and freedom of association by using the power of the government to prohibit private corporations from mandating vaccines in a pandemic.

    I definitely don’t trust the GOP on foreign policy. After Trump threatened American alliances, lavished praise on Kim Jong-un, and cut a disastrous peace deal with the Taliban with the enthusiastic support of many in his party, I no longer believe the GOP possesses a sound strategic approach to American national security.

    I don’t trust the GOP on debt and deficits. During Trump’s presidency the party abandoned the pretense of fiscal responsibility. This is an old problem, of course. Republicans are notorious deficit hawks until the very instant they seize the White House. The Trump administration increased deficits year-by-year even during an economic expansion. He’s the only president in a generation to generate a higher deficit in every year of his presidency.

    Should I trust the GOP on public health? Well:

    I definitely don’t trust the GOP to navigate America’s racial divisions. In many ways the virulent “anti-woke” emotion in the grassroots is every bit as toxic as the most toxic intolerance that’s infected the left. I live in a community (one of the most powerful and prosperous Republican counties in the country) that’s made national news because, among other things, activists are seeking to ban books such as Ruby Bridges Goes to School, My True Story from elementary school instruction. Those same activists even filed a complaint under the state’s “anti-CRT law” that objected to a Norman Rockwell painting.

    And I don’t trust the GOP on immigration. I grew up a member of a Republican Party that understood that immigrants contributed immensely to the cultural and economic vitality of the nation. Yes, I know that the precise amount of legal immigration is a matter of good-faith, prudential debate. I also believe a nation should do its reasonable best to secure its borders. But the directional posture of the country and the party should be favorable to immigration and particularly welcoming to refugees.

    This does not connote trust in the Dem Party, and this distrust is enough to start a 3rd party that hews to traditional conservatism, but I’ll settle for a caucus or wing.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  18. Teachers who choose to discuss current events or widely debated and currently controversial issues of public policy or social affairs shall, to the best of their ability, strive to explore such issues from diverse and contending perspectives without giving deference to any one perspective;

    Is it controversial anymore to think men and women are different sexes and genders? That only women can give birth, have periods, and breastfeed?

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  19. Those with “opposing view of the Holocaust” likely have opposing views of each other, one merely has to go to a state correctional facility mess Hall to see this fleshed out

    urbanleftbehind (f55af8)

  20. @16 no principle (sic) was fired for taking a photo with his wife at the beach

    you’re hyperventilating, and being dishonest

    breathe in, breathe out

    JF (e1156d)

  21. Loudoun officials defied state reporting law on sexual assaults.

    But let’s keep pretending Texas is trying to promote Holocaust denial. Don’t want to get the plebes worked up on real issues like their children being molested and the school systems covering it up.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  22. JF,

    Aug, District gets complaints about pictures of him and his wife from 10 years ago.
    Sep, He’s let go over “CRT”. Even though it wasn’t a presentation he made and the presentation had been approved by the district.

    I was wrong about the district though. It wasn’t Southlake. It was Colleyville, which is next door to Southlake and not as affluent, but still *very* affluent.

    https://people.com/human-interest/texas-hs-principal-speaks-out-after-questionable-anniversary-photos-with-wife/

    Congrats on the win for Holocaust denialism, btw I expect you’re very happy.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  23. NJRob, More then 1 thing at a time can be bad.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  24. Paul, I’m not liking the choice between bad and worse. But it’s what we’ve got.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  25. @22 people magazine

    i bow to your sources

    here’s an editorial in the local paper, by someone not sympathetic to the school
    https://www.star-telegram.com/opinion/editorials/article253888863.html

    and, a black principal got fired, meaning he had to have been hired in the first place

    sounds like a very racist and backward school district to me

    as usual, you can’t debate the issue so you start flinging the hyperbolic and dishonest insults

    Congrats on the win for Holocaust denialism, btw I expect you’re very happy.

    this violates the commenting rules here, but you have the right politics so i don’t expect them to be enforced

    JF (e1156d)

  26. People didn’t get the story wrong so i used their link. NYT also carried if if you want a more prestigious source. But they have a paywall.

    I usually dismiss your comments because there’s rarely anything to them beyond frustrated expressions of resentment and solidarity to right wing causes. Was your comment in 20 where you accused me of hyperventilating and being dishonest your attempt to honestly debate the issue?

    Assuming it was, here’s my position: I think the Texas law is bad policy and the impact shown in the OP is not only predictable but in line with what it’s authors wanted; to discourage discussion of topics that make MAGA uncomfortable. I think Holocaust denialism is an accepted part MAGA base as evidenced by the lack of pushback when it’s expressed. Plenty of examples of people wearing camp Auschwitz or 6MWE and similar T-shirts at Trump events. But I think the real focus is to discourage/ limit teaching about slavery, the reconstruction, Jim Crow and the civil rights movement as anything other then ancient history that has been completely fixed.

    I think what’s happening right now in a rich, white, conservative school system is evidence that I’m correct.

    I look forward to your sincere and thoughtful response.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  27. From the same school district:

    Southlake, Texas, schools restrict classroom libraries after backlash over anti-racist book
    The Carroll Independent School District in Southlake, Texas, is cracking down on the books teachers keep in their classroom libraries, drawing protests from educators who say the guidelines amount to censorship.

    Administrators with the suburban school system outside Fort Worth told teachers this week that they would receive mandatory training (referenced in Dana’s post) on new districtwide rules governing books — and instructions for getting rid of any that don’t meet new content standards.
    …….
    The move comes just days after the Carroll school board reprimanded a fourth-grade teacher who had kept a copy of “This Book Is Anti-Racist” by Tiffany Jewell in her classroom library following complaints from a mother who said the book violated her family’s “morals and faith.” She had also complained about how the teacher responded to her concerns.
    ……..
    An English teacher at a Carroll campus wrapped their classroom library with yellow caution tape, according to a photo provided by another teacher. Photos from another classroom Thursday showed bookshelves covered with black sheets of paper and a sign that read, “You can’t read any of the books on my shelves.”

    “How am I supposed to know what 44 sets of parents find offensive?” a Carroll teacher asked. “We’ve been told: ‘The parents are our clients. We have to do what they want.’ And this is what they want.”
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  28. Rip, my Daughter’s 5th grade teacher (not in Texas) had a HUGE wall of books. He said he wanted to have a big selection so that kids could find something they liked. I made a joke about one of the books (it was a Conan graphic novel) and he said that wasn’t one he’d recommend but his main goal was to get them to read and that he didn’t care so much what they read so long as they were reading. So he wanted variety. His answer sounded rehearsed and he told me he did sometimes get questions, and if there was something I found inappropriate in a book she brought home I could talk to him about it any time.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  29. But let’s keep pretending Texas is trying to promote Holocaust denial. Don’t want to get the plebes worked up on real issues like their children being molested and the school systems covering it up.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 10/15/2021 @ 8:10 am

    To be fair they were covering it up to ensure boys could use the girls bathroom if they felt like it. That’s important stuff. One girl is just a statistic…

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  30. @26 those who don’t like that the principal was fired want to make it about the beach picture

    which is exactly what you did, as if there weren’t any other possible reasons

    that’s dishonest, as shown in my link

    and, you have to be dishonest in order to paint the school district (who hired a black principal) as racist, and you have to be dishonest to call those who disagree with you holocaust deniers

    i’ve established with your own comments that you’re dishonest

    once you’ve established i’m a holocaust denier or you unequivocally take it back, there’s nothing to discuss with someone who’s dishonest

    JF (e1156d)

  31. Students should read Denying the Holocaust or History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier both by Deborah Lipstadt. She defeated David Irving’s libel suit when she called him a holocaust denier in the former book “by demonstrating in court that Lipstadt’s accusations against Irving were substantially true and therefore not libelous. The case was argued as a bench trial before Mr Justice Gray, who produced a written judgment 349 pages long detailing Irving’s systematic distortion of the historical record of World War II.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  32. I withdraw my claim that you would celebrate Holocaust denialism as a win. I misunderstood your position.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  33. Time123 (9f42ee) — 10/15/2021 @ 9:19 am-

    From elementary to high school my time was filled with reading. It was far more interesting than anything else.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  34. Shoot, looks like my other comment didn’t post.

    I’m going to fix my statement about the Principal since there were a couple of errors in it; he wasn’t fired it’s administrative leave and I have the district wrong.

    Southlake is next door to a very similar (if slightly less wealthy) burb that recently put their well regarded first black principal on administrative leave for vague reasons one month after there were complaints about pictures of him and his (white) wife. The district hasn’t said that it was because of public anger at the inter-racial marriage, but it appears that all of the complaints started after pictures were seen. People are free to draw their own conclusions about cause and effect.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  35. I’ve updated the post with an apology from the Carroll ISD’s superintendent.

    Dana (174549)

  36. That’s quite the climbdown, Dana. For today, I’m giving myself permission to be more grumpy than usual. It’s National Grouch Day.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  37. This does not connote trust in the Dem Party, and this distrust is enough to start a 3rd party that hews to traditional conservatism, but I’ll settle for a caucus or wing.

    Well, that’s good because not one item in your list is improved by the Democrat version. Yes, the GOP has become more statist than it was, but the Democrats have too, and they started from a worst place.

    I only disagree with the idea we need a new conservative party. At this point in time we need a centrist party because the two incumbent parties have both lost the plot. Drive them both to extinction and start over.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  38. @36 well, the ridiculous holocaust comparison didn’t work

    they’ll try something else

    JF (e1156d)

  39. I’m glad they backed down under the bad publicity. I hope these ridiculous actions all end the same way and that not too many stand for lack of such attention.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  40. 30… way to direct some disinfecting sunlight on that dishonesty!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  41. Wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Peddy ginned up this controversy on her own in an attempt to cast the Texas law in a bad light.

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  42. 30… way to direct some disinfecting sunlight on that dishonesty!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/15/2021 @ 10:33 am

    He praises puppy
    For taking dumps on the floor
    By doing it too

    Demosthenes (5ad8b9)

  43. @42 get professional help

    JF (e1156d)

  44. JF, So no actual response on the merits of the issue?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  45. @44 did you read @2?

    that’s backed up by Dana’s recent update

    and, it’s back up by every comment you’ve made in this thread

    here’s a challenge for you, which you don’t have to accept:
    can you debate a position without basing it on the other side being racists or holocaust deniers?

    i don’t think you can

    but, i’d be happy to be proved wrong

    JF (e1156d)

  46. I think the update shows the school is backing down on their direction, not that you were correct in 2. Also my comment in 26 doesn’t call anyone racist. But I do think this law was created to prevent and discourage schools from teaching about historical events related to race in a honest way.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  47. It was created to discourage the teaching and discussion of events (when related to current issues) ina dishonest way. That;s why oit is OK if it includes books or reading taking the other side.

    Now we all can have our opinion as to what is honest and what is not.

    Now this can result in books saying Communist China is run right paired with books saying it a a terrible dictatorship. Books against illegal immigration and books sympathetic to it.

    Books arguing the 2020 election was stolen and books arguing it was not.

    Books arguing that we are in a climate emergency and books arguing that it can’t be stopped and isn;t really terrible.

    Books arguing vaccines are necessary and books arguing they are useless or harmful.

    But what is the alternative? A lot of people would not like what was chosen if only one side was chosen and it would be a different side in different school districts. You don’t know if a particular school district is going to take the “right” approach or the wrong aproach to any of thee issues so just letting anything be taught will make a lot of people unhappy.

    But this ;aw could be a bad approach to that problem.

    People are going to be exposed to propaganda anyway, so it could be good that they get some.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  48. The district only apologized when it became a problem.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  49. @48 it became a problem when it was apparent the administrator’s dumb remark had to be owned by her and not the texas law

    JF (e1156d)

  50. The district only apologized (today) once the statement (made a week ago) became public. Otherwise they were fine with it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  51. Nobody light a match with all this gaslighting.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  52. @50 “A Carroll staff member secretly recorded the Friday training and shared the audio with NBC News.”

    they should’ve publicly apologized last week for something mentioned in a training session that nobody else knew about

    good lord

    JF (e1156d)

  53. [A] new Texas law that requires teachers to present multiple perspectives when discussing “widely debated and currently controversial” issues……

    Does that include the 2020 election results?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  54. So if kids in texas music class sing hava negila they now have to sing the horst wessel?

    asset (3aae60)

  55. Kevin, Good link.

    Apparently the school board recently voted to formally discipline a teacher for having the wrong book in their classroom. Not for requiring it, or teaching it, just having it in their classroom. The law is a stick to use against teachers that teach facts some parents don’t like.

    The district’s issue of what books can be available in the classroom came up last year at Johnson Elementary School in Southlake, about 30 miles northwest of Dallas. Rickie Farah, who teaches fourth grade and was named a Carroll ISD teacher of the year, made “This Book Is Anti-Racist” by Tiffany Jewell available in the classroom. But when a student brought home a copy of the book — a New York Times bestseller described by Kirkus Reviews as a “guidebook for taking action against racism” — the child’s parents complained to the district that it was inappropriate for her age and grade level, the Dallas Morning News reported.

    Although Carroll ISD initially decided against disciplining Farah, the school board last week voted to overturn the district’s decision and reprimanded the teacher. The move set off unease among teachers in the district, who wondered if they, too, would be disciplined for having certain books in their classrooms.
    At an Oct. 8 training session for guidelines on classroom libraries, some teachers expressed concern that they would be forced to get rid of books dealing with race.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  56. JF, If this was the districts stance all along (and I don’t know that it was) it would have been good for them make it clear to their administrators so they could clearly communicate that. Even better would have been for the law to make that clear, or establish a a process for how the executive branch would do that. Doing that has some downsides. People would criticize parts they disliked. I assume the people that created the law are smart enough to know that and left it ambiguous on purpose. But maybe I’m over estimating them.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  57. Well the book you just cited is propaganda to indoctrinate the young into become a woke leftist.

    It’s good that the school would ban it.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  58. Thanks for demonstrating my point about the intent of this law NJRob.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  59. Let’s just go straight to book burnings.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  60. The thing is, I heard this thing before about both sides of the Holocaust, more than a year ago I would say..

    The first time it was possibly stupidity but this was probably malicious.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  61. @56 the book is inappropriate for 4th graders

    it’s targeted for 6th through 10th graders

    full title: “This Book Is Anti-Racist: 20 Lessons on How to Wake Up, Take Action, and Do The Work (Empower the Future, 1)”

    read the description on amazon and cringe, or not:
    This Book Is Anti-Racist: 20 Lessons on How to Wake Up, Take Action, and Do The Work (Empower the Future, 1) https://www.amazon.com/dp/0711245215/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_0CF76TXCA4BZH414N1NK

    it’s agitprop i wouldn’t subject kids to under 9th grade, when they are capable of challenging it

    it was right to reprimand the teacher

    JF (e1156d)

  62. @60 dr seuss and what else?

    JF (e1156d)

  63. @62, for having a NYT bestseller in their class (not as an assigned lesson) that’s recommended for kids 2 grades up?

    No way.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  64. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 10/15/2021 @ 2:09 pm

    Let’s just go straight to book burnings.

    IT’S THE woke LEFT THAT’S DOING THAT,

    In Canada, in 2019. It may have happened only once.

    https://www.foxnews.com/world/canadian-schools-book-burning-reconciliation-trudeau

    A newly revealed 2019 book burning in Canada has politicians and voters up in flames, with many denouncing the act – no matter the “symbolic” intention.

    An Ontario francophone school – a school that mixes English and French lessons – initiated a “purification” ceremony in which it burned around 30 books of “questionable” content for “educational purposes.” Ashes from the burned books were used as fertilizer for a tree.

    The Conseil scolaire catholique Providence, which oversees grade-school education in southwestern Ontario, did not make the ceremony public, but details about the event surfaced during the election campaign for the Indigenous People’s Commission.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  65. JF you want a teacher punished for having a NYT best seller that’s slightly challenging for the students in their classroom and you think fears about how a book about the Holocaust will be treated is an insincere effort to make the law look bad? That’s silly.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  66. @64 the book is targeted for 6-10 grades according to the publisher, which has an interest in stretching it

    something that ridiculously biased is acceptable at 9th grade and above, in a debate club or something similar

    i don’t think it’s appropriate for any grade

    4th grade? you’re silly

    JF (e1156d)

  67. I’m not saying it’s a great choice for 4th grade. I’m saying punishing the teacher just for having it is inappropriate.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  68. And the fact that you feel otherwise shows their concern about how books on the holocaust will be treated is a reasonable one.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  69. That you equate leftist propaganda used to indoctrinate the young with the factual horrors of the Holocaust says more about you than anyone else Time.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  70. One thing they have in common is that school teachers Texas are worried they’ll be punished for having book about them.

    You can see why. The right has become comfortable tolerating those ideas in their coalition.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=camp+auschwitz+shirt+trump+rally&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS956US956&hl=en-US&prmd=isnxv&sxsrf=AOaemvKPwbrtTwR4i1hXfeImB7Tu3Hm14A:1634337403800&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizu5Wjvc3zAhUEVc0KHWvDDJkQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=1080&bih=695&dpr=2#imgrc=kh2y0ohEMMuZQM

    Maybe if you, and those like you, showed a fraction of the antipathy for those ideas it might be less so.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  71. @71 my challenge was just too tough

    i’ll have to make it easier

    JF (e1156d)

  72. i’ll have to make it easier

    Good luck.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hKJZ9pzDMCk

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  73. JF, I know you’d like to pretend that guys like that aren’t part of your coalition. But they clearly are.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  74. I’ve mentioned before how my STEM college invited a speaker from the Institute for Creation Science (sic) to give us the argument for creation as opposed to evolution.

    We all listened attentively, then there was a Q&A. What fun.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  75. “BREAKING NEWS: Loudoun County School Board Beth Barts submits her resignation, effective Nov. 2.

    This comes hours after the school superintendent admitted failure in providing a safe environment following reports of sexual assaults.”

    If the father hadn’t complained the Woke administrators would still be providing a rapist sanctuary campus.

    And the TX teacher who said they needed an opposing view on the Holocaust sure seemed to be implying that a TX law meant to stop the racism of CRT meant everything should be taught from a pro/con position, which is ridiculous. Mission accomplished the way some are reacting.

    Obudman (ee9b82)

  76. If the issue is books being age-appropriate, maybe there’s an argument there, although I’d be more concerned about a teacher handing out, say “Soul on Ice” to 2nd-graders than simply having it in the classroom for the teacher’s own purposes (e.g. a continuing ed class).

    The problem with the age thing of course is that different kids mature at different rates, and some parents are worse than the snowiest snowflake when it comes to having a “safe space” for their kids.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  77. I generally don’t trust “news stories” presented without links. Makes me suspect it comes from Infowars or the Daily Worker.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. Kevin, the age appropriateness is something JF made up. Also, having a more challenging book sitting in your classroom isn’t grounds for discipline.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  79. @62:

    The listing on Amazon does seem to be a CRT book, encouraging young folx (sic), and especially young white folx to “use your privilege and your proximity (or closeness) to the center of the dominant culture box to fracture the very foundation of our racist society.”

    We all talk about separating Church and State, so that people are not indoctrinated in a religious belief system. Yet we allow the State to promote a secular belief system that is no less religious when you get right down to it. Is it OK just because it is Godless?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  80. Also, having a more challenging book

    That sounds, I dunno, neutral. But the content of the book matters, too. If the teacher handed out Bibles, I think the idea that they were “more challenging” wouldn’t be the first topic of discussion.

    When I was in grade school, I was reading more than a few years ahead of my class and was terribly bored by the pap the school provided. Eventually I made a deal with the teacher that I’d read a book a week and give her a report on it so long as I didn’t have to read about Pippi and her Goat (or whatever it was). So, yes, I get “challenging.” But this book isn’t about challenging, it’s about indoctrinating.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. A stray thought here. The TX law isn’t that different from the Fairness Doctrine, which forced media outlets to always offer two sides, but the practical result was to show no sides because it wasn’t worth the extra time and effort. It’s why this law should be rescinded, because it steps on the First Amendment for the way it chills free expression.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  82. I don’t think a teacher would be disciplined for just having a religious text in the classroom. Again, the teacher isn’t accused of using it as part of a lesson. Just having it and letting a child take it home.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  83. i don’t think it’s appropriate for any grade

    It’s not appropriate for any educational setting. If you want to teach kids about racism and the sordid history of same, fine. Maybe even in 4th grade. But this is simply polemical.

    That is really the whole problem with CRT and similar approaches in schools. It is religious zealotry and dogma applied to secular topics.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  84. I don’t think a teacher would be disciplined for just having a religious text in the classroom. Again, the teacher isn’t accused of using it as part of a lesson. Just having it and letting a child take it home.

    What do you suppose would happen if a teacher gave a Jewish or Muslim kid a copy of the New Testament to take home?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  85. Kevin, From what I read it was a book in the classroom library and not an assigned book of part of a formal lesson.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  86. @83 We had a teacher run a bible study club after school a couple of years ago. It was fine. Also he kept his bible in his classroom. It was not an issue, even in terrible liberal CA.

    Nic (896fdf)

  87. @87 let a 4th grader take it home and i assure you i wouldn’t be the only parent to have a problem with it

    JF (e1156d)

  88. #42

    Nobody sane names a puppy Demosthenes.

    steveg (e81d76)

  89. @JF@89 AFAICT there are a hell of a lot of parents who have issues with all kinds of random stuff they disagree with and many of them would like a teacher disciplined for it. That doesn’t mean that such discipline should happen.

    A few years ago I had a parent call wanting a teacher disciplined for swearing at students for using the word “punk” in class because apparently in certain subcultures it means the receiving partner in a gay prison relationship. The teacher was referencing fashion choices based on the musical genre.

    I had a parent who wanted a teacher disciplined for being at a bar the night before because it was a school night.

    Some things warrant a “thank you for letting me know but….”
    Some things warrant a “take that home and/or don’t do/say that again”
    Some things warrant a disciplinary action. Some things don’t.

    Nic (896fdf)

  90. @91 nice examples of nutty parents, but religious and political indoctrination are not “random stuff”

    if you want to try to group parents objecting to it with your examples, that’s on you

    JF (e1156d)

  91. @42 get professional help

    JF (e1156d) — 10/15/2021 @ 11:37 am

    I’m trying. I really am. I have a call into Mike Lindell’s therapist. He said to say hi, by the way.

    Nobody sane names a puppy Demosthenes.

    steveg (e81d76) — 10/15/2021 @ 6:35 pm

    I’m not a puppy, though. I’m a stoat. A rather stout stoat.

    Seriously, though…this is the second time recently that you have just tried to turn what I said into a comment about me. Which doesn’t bother me, in and of itself. But it does bother me that they’ve both been so clumsy. I’m a little embarrassed for you. And the only reason I am allowing myself to feel that is because I don’t think you have the good sense necessary to feel it for yourself. Most of us left “I’m rubber and you’re glue” behind in our eights and mines, my guy.

    #GetWithTheTimesBroseph #IMissSocko

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  92. * nines, sorry. Not “mines.”

    I’m only correcting to make sure steveg has as easy a time of it as possible. You feel for him, you know?

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  93. @92 Except that all those people don’t think they are nuts. They really believe that their issue is worth disciplinary action. Your issue might also be nuts, you just don’t know it because you think it’s a perfectly reasonable expectation. And having a book in your classroom that violates school policy is probably a “take it home and don’t bring it back again” offense in almost all cases (not all cases, frex there should not be pornography, though I have gotten a call about a classical art lesson that included a bare breast and they called that pornography, so ymmv). There are HS football coaches who’ve convinced their entire football team to get baptized into their religious sect who don’t get disciplinary action.

    Nic (896fdf)

  94. Really, folks, this is not an “educational” book. It’s pure propaganda intended to indoctrinate children who are as yet incapable of critical thinking. It is the ideological equivalent of statutory rape.

    See for yourself: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0711245215

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  95. Kevin. It’s a book that’s too old for 4th graders. I don’t know why the teacher had it in their class, but it isn’t statutory rape.

    Nic (896fdf)

  96. And having a book in your classroom that violates school policy is probably a “take it home and don’t bring it back again” offense in almost all cases

    It hasn’t been reported that the boom violated school policy. And again wasn’t being used as part of a lesson.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  97. Kevin. It’s a book that’s too old for 4th graders

    It is a book that has no place in a public school. Books that demand acceptance of dogma — in this case that 1) our society is irredeemably racist, 2) that “people of color” are constantly victimized, and 3) that white “folx” (sic) need to stop being evil, and 4) that each white child carries the stigma of all past racism, and 5) that such children must sacrifice everything their parents have given them to make things right — is indeed “statutory (mental) rape” to inflict on young children.

    I cannot tell you how strongly I feel that state schools are as bad as state churches. They don’t have to be — just as a state church can be benign — but the temptation to the State, and those who would use it, is too overwhelming. This is just the latest form it takes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  98. I don’t know why the teacher had it in their class

    And again wasn’t being used as part of a lesson.

    The camel’s nose.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  99. They are indoctrination centers led by true believers.

    NJRob (1d8526)

  100. #94

    If I’m going to dish it out, I’ve got to take it.

    To be clear, I’m not the one with the pretentious handle, so I expect more of you, but anticipate less.

    steveg (e81d76)

  101. I’d always assumed your handle designated the great orator Demosthenes, but have come to understand its General Demosthenes

    steveg (e81d76)

  102. The other day a friend here on the board told me I am smarter than that guy with the Demosthenes handle.
    What kind of friend says something so low bar hurtful?

    steveg (e81d76)

  103. steveg, change your handle to Locke.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. steveg, change your handle to Locke.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/17/2021 @ 12:18 am

    That won’t work, Kevin. steveg and I aren’t siblings, or even related. Thankfully.

    Speaking of: First off, stev-o, I’d say you don’t need to worry about taking it so much as learning to dish it out. Because again, you’re not very good at that. Speaking of, please feel free to make fun of my handle as much as you like. It doesn’t bother me, and it seems to keep you off the streets.

    Second, I know exactly what sort of a friend would say something so awful. If you’re interested in some advice, let me put you in touch with my girlfriend who lives in Canada. She’ll be able to tell you exactly how to deal with people like her.

    Oh, sorry about that. Do I have to explain the whole “my girlfriend who lives in Canada” thing? It used to be a thing among desperate younger teenagers, which may be over your current maturity level.

    But then again, I’m pleased you have such an active imaginary life. Have you ever heard of positive visualization? Whether you have or not, you’re practicing it. Maybe one day, you will get some actual friends. Keep it up, buddy! I want you to know I’m rooting for you.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  105. You got kicked out of the 4H club for being too friendly with the goats?
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2019/04/23/TELEMMGLPICT000194957190_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQfyf2A9a6I9YchsjMeADBa08.jpeg
    I put together a family tree for you

    steveg (e81d76)

  106. He’s RPing Peter Wiggin.

    NJRob (ad8632)

  107. I did look at the picture. Gotta say, my family is looking nice! I clearly have my father’s horns.

    As for your family, I know you’re going through hard times, but you just have to push through them. Always remember, the family that brays together stays together!

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)


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