Patterico's Pontifications

8/31/2021

California Dems Consider Banning the Non-Vaccinated from Work and Public Places, Shelve Bill Until After Recall Election

Filed under: General — JVW @ 3:26 pm



[guest post by JVW]

In the never-ending attempt of California Democrats to impose East German-style regulations on citizens of the Golden State, Assemblywoman Buff Wicks (D-Oakland) proposed to turn California into the first state to restrict the ability of non-COVID-vaccinated residents to work or mingle indoors in public:

California Democrats are postponing a plan to require people to prove they’re fully vaccinated against COVID-19 to enter indoor businesses and require workers to either get the shots or be regularly tested.

Assemblywoman Buffy Wicks, D-Oakland, confirmed to The Sacramento Bee on Monday that the idea is dead for 2021. She was among the lawmakers who floated language for the concept last week, but did not formally introduce legislation to carry it out.

Lawmakers had less than two weeks to consider the bill in committee hearings and approve it by a two-thirds majority during floor votes before an end-of-session Sept. 10 deadline.

Wicks acknowledged last week that there would be staunch opposition to the measure, and that she wasn’t sure whether the coalition of lawmakers supporting the process wanted to pursue the idea this year or in January, when the Legislature returns from a break. The proposal would have gone immediately into effect upon the governor’s signature.

Wicks said on Monday she will continue working with all stakeholders to develop the “strongest possible policy” in 2022.

I am fine with the state government declaring that state employees must be vaccinated or tested (though there should be an opt-out for any employee who has already contracted COVID and thus developed natural antibodies). I am fine with county government requiring vaccinations or tests for county employees. City governments can require them for city employees. School boards can require them for school employees. Private employers can demand them for their own employees, subject to existing employee contracts. But I do not agree that the state government can demand that anyone and everyone in the state comply with this draconian order pushed by some high-strung Bay Area leftist.

And, of course, with the state legislative session ending on September 10 this bill would have been hastily pushed through the Democrat-dominated legislature without much debate or any real chance for opponents to organize against the bill. Apparently Ms. Wicks and her comrades in the majority were going to employ the time-honored underhanded tradition of taking a bill that had already been passed in the Assembly but was awaiting action in the state Senate (in this case a bill pertaining to Bay Area transportation), gutting it and replacing the text with the new COVID vaccination and testing requirements, then having a quick vote on the amended bill before then sending it to the Senate. This is how slick Democrat supermajorities operate in the Golden State these days.

Though we don’t know the real reason why Ms. Wicks and her allies chose to shelve the bill until next year — I doubt that claims that she wants to strengthen it as much as possible hold any water — I don’t think it takes too imaginative a mind to assume that the pending recall vote of Gavin Newsom made this bill toxic to all but the most extreme members of the California soviet. One can imagine this bill passing next week and landing on Newsom’s desk just as Californians are filling-out and mailing-in their votes. If this recall election (and I plan to write more about it later) accomplishes nothing else, at least it is curbing the more totalitarian instincts of the ruling Democrats, at least for the short while. I think recalling Governor Hair-Gel would be a fine way to smack some sense into them.

– JVW

140 Responses to “California Dems Consider Banning the Non-Vaccinated from Work and Public Places, Shelve Bill Until After Recall Election”

  1. These clowns in Sacramento are absolutely unbelievable.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  2. Remember – the chances of any one person dying from COVID are remote. You let Democrats play with odds like that, just imagine what they will do with better odds.

    Hoi Polloi (998b37)

  3. Papers now Subject.

    NJRob (785fcb)

  4. I’ve been wondering lately what means fully vaccinated. I was tracking a site recently where the target was 70% with 1 shot. When we hit 70% the standard changed both for age and number of shots.

    To get the booster it’s either 6 or 8 months, depending on the source, from the 2nd shot.

    Is fully vaccinated all 3 shots and does that mean the only people eligible to work under this bill would be people who can take the 3rd shot now?

    I do not agree that the state government can demand

    I’ve almost given up on this. We’re in Cool Hand Luke mode now. I don’t like it any more than you do.

    frosty (f27e97)

  5. I’ve been wondering lately what means fully vaccinated.

    The goalposts are fluid and will be moved when politically expedient. Remember – those selfless drug companies that make millions on the vaccine would never recommend another booster shot unless Science proved it scientifically necessary.

    Hoi Polloi (998b37)

  6. I don’t understand how anyone could vote against the recall. One party has too much control in California, and these things will happen if it continues. What’s wrong with shaking things up a little? For the love of mike, take a chance.

    If you like the direction California is going, then by all means continue the status quo.

    norcal (a6130b)

  7. These clowns in Sacramento are absolutely unbelievable.

    … and have been for well over two decades now.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  8. >I don’t understand how anyone could vote against the recall.

    every candidate with a chance of winning has promised to repeal the rule requiring state workers to be vaccinated and to prohibit state agencies, local governments, or schools from adopting similar rules *or rules requiring masks wearing*

    elder, faulconer, cox, paffrath — all of them stand behind this insanity.

    meanwhile, the people i know with kids in school, almost all of them have had panics recently because of their kids being exposed, and all of them are furious at the schools for *not doing enough to protect their children*.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  9. Too bad your friends only watch mainstream news, aphrael.

    Have them check the UK for the truth on masks.

    BuDuh (8597ba)

  10. I don’t understand how anyone could vote against the recall.

    W/gas at $5 a gallon, it’s too expensive to drive to a polling station.

    Clever fella that Newsom. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  11. aphrael (4c4719) — 8/31/2021 @ 6:23 pm

    What are they panicked about? The kids can still wear masks without someone requiring it right?

    frosty (f27e97)

  12. @8 Covid is not a big threat to children, and their parents should have been vaccinated by now.

    norcal (a6130b)

  13. so it’s not *just* that you don’t understand how anyone could vote against the recall, it’s that you think the people who are doing so are doing so because they have wrong beliefs.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  14. DCSCA – who needs to go to a polling station? state law, passed by the legislature and signed by the governor, requires every voter in any election this year to be mailed a ballot which they can mail back.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  15. >The kids can still wear masks without someone requiring it right?

    see, for example, the story that’s going around (from pre-delta days!) of a teacher in a school in marin who (a) knew she had covid, (b) came to work anyway, (c) took her mask off to read her kids a story, and (d) infected half the class.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  16. aphrael (4c4719) — 8/31/2021 @ 7:03 pm

    I don’t know the details there. How’d everyone involved in that story fair? Did any of the kids get sick? Did anyone get hospitalized? Did anyone die?

    On my original question, did anyone in that story prevent the kids from wearing masks? Did they wear masks and still catch COVID?

    frosty (f27e97)

  17. So when does the clock get rolled back from “fully vaccinated” to “partially vaccinated”?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  18. >I don’t understand how anyone could vote against the recall.

    aphrael is too nice to say it, but I’m not: Here’s half a dozen reasons.

    nk (1d9030)

  19. @13 Not so much “wrong” as overblown concern about Covid. Covid isn’t going away. Forget about herd immunity. It will be endemic.

    Covid is not a big threat to children, and it’s not a big threat to adults who have been vaccinated and/or have natural immunity.

    California has so many other problems that need fixing, and are fixable.

    norcal (a6130b)

  20. https://religionnews.com/2021/08/31/los-angeles-county-will-pay-400000-to-settle-court-battle-with-pastor-john-macarthur/

    You would think the totalitarians in California would’ve learned from the Supreme Court smacking down their fascist behavior and that they’ve now had to pay the church for abusing their rights, but as JVW posted here, they keep doubling down.

    NJRob (d5c117)

  21. Faulconer and Cox needed a Seguranzas en caso que Newsome pierde campaign, but maybe the Latino voter matured a bit (from the bad ol greenlight era) and enough will give Elder a shot. The former 2 frontrunnersalso could be correctly reading writing on walls and instead want to be on the good list if there is DiFi vacancy during the Elder interregnum.

    urbanleftbehind (148539)

  22. Parents upset a kid get sick at school? Lol.

    Lol (dc02c7)

  23. #8 Those parents are imbeciles. The kids raised to be paranoid delusional. Lol.

    Lol (dc02c7)

  24. there should be an opt-out for any employee who has already contracted COVID and thus developed natural antibodies

    Why? You realize this will encourage some to GET Covid to avoid the shot, and therefore expose people unnecessarily.

    Kevin M (f80fe3)

  25. Remember – the chances of any one person dying from COVID are remote. You let Democrats play with odds like that, just imagine what they will do with better odds.

    The chances of anyone dying from the vaccine are zero.

    Kevin M (f80fe3)

  26. That being said, the proposed bill is nuts, of course. No business should be required to fire someone for not being vaccinated. Or prevented from doing so. No business should be required to bar the unvaccinated, nor required to admit them.

    Kevin M (f80fe3)

  27. elder, faulconer, cox, paffrath — all of them stand behind this insanity.

    This is cynical, or course. No such order would stand.

    Kevin M (f80fe3)

  28. Kevin M (f80fe3) — 8/31/2021 @ 10:01 pm

    You realize this will encourage some to GET Covid to avoid the shot, and therefore expose people unnecessarily.

    I don’t realize that. I don’t agree with that at all. This seems not only unlikely but far fetched.

    frosty (f27e97)

  29. Supreme court upholds texas new abortion law ban. The new dred scott decision has begun.

    asset (d269e8)

  30. Hopefully the forced gestation results in double the mandated vaccinations. That will boost the booster sales for sure while totally wrecking the “my body my choice” chant.

    BuDuh (a5ec10)

  31. @14. postal rates went up Sunday. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  32. @28, given that people are taking horse deworming medicine rather then the vaccine I think Kevin’s point is pretty valid.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  33. Supreme court upholds texas new abortion law ban.

    I wish, but unfortunately it did not. I was looking forward to suing some people for $10,000 for voting.

    nk (1d9030)

  34. MG, thank you for the anti-vax nonsense. Maybe urinal cakes or horse deworming medicine will be the miracle cure you’re looking for.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  35. Maybe urinal cakes or horse deworming medicine will be the miracle cure you’re looking for.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 4:53 am

    Ivermectin, ‘Wonder drug’ from Japan: the human use perspective
    Andy CRUMP and Satoshi ŌMURA

    Discovered in the late-1970s, the pioneering drug ivermectin, a dihydro derivative of avermectin—originating solely from a single microorganism isolated at the Kitasato Intitute, Tokyo, Japan from Japanese soil—has had an immeasurably beneficial impact in improving the lives and welfare of billions of people throughout the world. Originally introduced as a veterinary drug, it kills a wide range of internal and external parasites in commercial livestock and companion animals. It was quickly discovered to be ideal in combating two of the world’s most devastating and disfiguring diseases which have plagued the world’s poor throughout the tropics for centuries. It is now being used free-of-charge as the sole tool in campaigns to eliminate both diseases globally. It has also been used to successfully overcome several other human diseases and new uses for it are continually being found. This paper looks in depth at the events surrounding ivermectin’s passage from being a huge success in Animal Health into its widespread use in humans, a development which has led many to describe it as a “wonder” drug.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  36. Counterpoint:

    KFOR contacted 12 Tractor Supply stores around Oklahoma, and they all said Ivermectin was sold out.

    “Ivermectin is gone within hours of shipment,” one store said.

    “I mean, we even have ‘Please don’t eat’ signs up,” another told KFOR.

    “We haven’t received a shipment in two weeks,” said a supply store. “I think it’s because people are consuming it.”

    “There’s too much potential for error if a person goes and takes a veterinary product intended for large animals,” said Scott Schaeffer with the Oklahoma Poison Control Center.

    Since May, there have been 10 poison calls related to Ivermectin. Diarrhea and vomiting are two of the many side effects you could experience. Some can be very serious.

    “It could be dizziness, cardiac rhythm problems, blood pressure issues, primarily low blood pressure. Especially mix with some other medications,” said Dr. Clarke. “There is no dose. There’s no dose for this because there’s no evidence that this is going to work.”

    Again, doctors warn don’t buy medicine from a feed store.

    Doctor Clarke told KFOR the best way to prevent COVID is to get vaccinated.

    Merck also says it’s not effective

    https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  37. When i came up with “eating urinal cakes’ as a joke to mock the anti-vax morons I had no idea reality would come along and make my joke seem tame.

    Horse de-wormer…SMDH

    It’s amazing that the same demographic that strenuously speaks up against any slight, real or imagined, to western civilization so rapidly turns from western medicine and mimics essential oil Karens if the treatment is embraced by the democrats.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  38. Ivermectin, ‘Wonder drug’ from Japan: the human use perspective

    The cut-and-paste is from a NIH paper from 2011, and which obviously has nothing to do with CV19. There are no randomized clinical trials that show ivermectin to be effective, unless you’re looking for getting the trots.

    Regarding natural immunity, Dr. Wen:

    Studies have compared whether infection or vaccination confers stronger immunity. Some research suggests that vaccination provides more durable and more consistent protection than recovery. Others reach a different conclusion; a new study from Israel, not yet peer-reviewed, found there was a lower risk of infection with the delta variant among those with immunity from recovery compared with vaccination.

    And here are some actual scientific results in UK on vaccine and natural immunity effectiveness, and vaccine immunity is superior, but not by a lot. None of this suggests that the preferred route is to get infected so as to become naturally immune.

    Paul Montagu (319ea2)

  39. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 5:21 am
    Paul Montagu (319ea2) — 9/1/2021 @ 5:32 am

    The point is that ivermectin has actual human applications.

    As for the “anti-vax” pejorative, when does the clock get turned back on us from “fully vaccinated” to “partially vaccinated”?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  40. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 3:07 am

    given that people are taking horse deworming medicine rather then the vaccine I think Kevin’s point is pretty valid.

    How many people do you really think are doing that? Enough to support the idea that people will intentionally get covid to avoid the vaccine and that this unknown number of people “getting” covid justifies this CA bill?

    How many people do you think would be “getting” covid as KM describes?

    You weren’t thinking mandating the flu vaccine against a ~$90b cost was worth it but you think whatever you’ve heard about Ivermectin means there’s enough of a risk of this other thing that your good with preventing people from entering indoor businesses?

    Both the ivermectin and this “getting” covid fall into the same category of problems as the satanic D&D and backward masking on the rock and roll albums.

    frosty (f27e97)

  41. FWO, That doesn’t mean people taking horse de-worming medicine aren’t complete morons any more then the Karens who found out that there’s an unknown amount of something with medicinal benefits in their essential oils are right that that it prevents cancer.

    Also, your study is 10 years out old and has nothing to do Covid. 30 seconds on google finds you the statement from Merck from early this year. Urinal cakes have also been shown to improve public health. That doesn’t mean you should eat them to cure Covid.

    As for the “anti-vax” pejorative, when does the clock get turned back on us from “fully vaccinated” to “partially vaccinated”?

    I’m not sure to be honest. There’s a lot of discussion about if boosters are needed but I haven’t seen clear direction. It might be a booster is needed on some cadence. What we do know is that no one has died from the vaccine and people with the vaccine are dying less then 1/10 as often as the un-vaccinated.

    But hey man, if you want to take a belt and suspenders approach go for the Horse Meds. Just make sure you buy lots of TP. I guess diarrhea is a very common side efffect.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  42. @41, I never said the morons taking Horse De-Worming past make the CA bill necessary. I offered it as evidence that Kevin’s concerns in comment 24 about stupid behavior has some validity. I didn’t offer an estimate on how much.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  43. This bill seems unnecessary to me at this point. I think states should limit it to mandating vaccination for
    -State employees
    -Public school children who are old enough
    -People seeking to enter public buildings (provided due process rights are respected by establishing alternative processes)

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  44. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 5:52 am

    What we do know is that no one has died from the vaccine

    We don’t actually know that. The CDC carefully avoids saying that and focuses on rare adverse effects. I think it’d be more accurate to say we don’t have any clear links between the vaccine and deaths.

    frosty (f27e97)

  45. OK, I’ll change it to “What we do know is there’s no evidence anyone has died from the vaccine and adverse effects are rare.”

    Unlike Horse De-Worming Paste which has made a bunch of people sick, so take the vaccine, and not Horse De-Worming Paste.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  46. I never said

    LOL If you insist on feeding trolls, expect to say that a lot.

    As for the anti-vaxxers, they probably do need the ivermectin for its intended use, whether they know it or not. Roadkill barbecue, gas station sushi, truck stop cunnilingus, …. But I wonder if they know that they’re supposed to rub it on for scabbies and lice, not swallow it.

    nk (1d9030)

  47. I’m going to borrow that, nk. :)

    Paul Montagu (319ea2)

  48. I am fine with the state government declaring that state employees must be vaccinated or tested (though there should be an opt-out for any employee who has already contracted COVID and thus developed natural antibodies)

    I haven’t heard one word from anything in the media about even the idea of such an exception, though I know someone who told me his doctor recommended against him getting the vaccine because he had antibodies (low, the infection was some time ago, probably at the start of the epidemic but that’s still sufficient) and also had diabetes.

    Previous infection is used in various places as a reason not to require vaccination. Medically, you might benefit slightly, in terms of immunity, from one dose of a 2-dose vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  49. Hoi Polloi (998b37) — 8/31/2021 @ 3:57 pm

    remember – the chances of any one person dying from COVID are remote.

    Close to 1 in 1,000, though widely varying by age and health – and by whether or not your infection is rare in your locality, or out of control.

    (When it is out of control, not only is the medical treatment less good, but the viral dose that starts the infection averages a lot higher, ad the cases are severer.)

    Bloomberg Business eek says in the top left hand corner of page 4 of its August 30, 2021 issue, that there have been 214 million cases worldwide and 4 and a half million deaths (which is a per case death rate of a little over 3% but something like 1 out every 2,000 people alive.)

    The number of cases is only the officially tabulated ones which is way underestimated, and deaths because of Covid are both overcounted and undercounted.

    Overcounted among the 214 million, since some died of other causes, and undercounted among the rest of the population, since many deaths, especially from causes related to blood clots, were not recognized as being Covid related.

    Five billion vaccine doses, some of them virtually useless, like most Chinese ones, have been administered. The number of different people who got some vaccine should be around 3 to 4 billion.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  50. “There’s too much potential for error if a person goes and takes a veterinary product intended for large animals,”

    That is, nobody has any idea what the proper dose is.

    But that’s because you don;t tell them!!

    And the antibodies would be better as a prophylactic, if you could get them.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  51. “I am fine with the state government declaring that state employees must be vaccinated or tested (though there should be an opt-out for any employee who has already contracted COVID and thus developed natural antibodies).”

    Progress!

    But there are still people out there intent on ignoring that people who’ve had Covid are much better off against Delta than the vaccinated. And people are screaming at them IN ALL CAPS to get the jab.

    Obudman (676dac)

  52. frosty (f27e97) — 8/31/2021 @ 4:24 pm

    0% with 1 shot. When we hit 70% the standard changed both for age and number of shots.

    It means nobody is currently trying to get you to take more shots.

    It’s a legal, not a scientific, distinction.

    “Fully vaccinated” is one dose of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine or two doses of the Pfizer or Moderna, even though one dose of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine produces stronger immunity than one dose of the J&J.

    In Israel, the status of being fully vaccinated may expire six months after the second Pfizer shot.

    To get the booster it’s either 6 or 8 months, depending on the source, from the 2nd shot.

    Nothing has been decided yet, and in fact, except for some special cases/ it is offocially discouraged and maybe insurance won;t cover. The Biden Administration thinks we are on track to officially authorize a booster shot on an emergency basis by about Sept 20 and has made plans in advance for when it happens.

    Dr. Fauci said they are undecided whether the wait between the second dose and the booster should be five months or eight months. (8 months probably should produce slightly stronger immuniity, and five months quicker stronger immunity)

    Is fully vaccinated all 3 shots and does that mean the only peopleeligible to work under this bill would be people who can take the 3rd shot now?

    They probably didn’t take account of the booster at all.

    Extra immunity gets stronger the longer you wait. If you get the third dose, you could really
    skip the second dose.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  53. 52. Obudman (676dac) — 9/1/2021 @ 7:11 am

    But there are still people out there intent on ignoring that people who’ve had Covid are much better off against Delta than the vaccinated.

    Against any version, provided they got a serious enough infection. People naturally infected may have gotten a “booster” dose, too.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  54. They’re already starting to suspect that mRNA might be just a brief fling and not a lasting relationship to T cells. And viral vector is still an open question, too.

    nk (1d9030)

  55. 12. norcal (a6130b) — 8/31/2021 @ 6:52 pm

    @8 Covid is not a big threat to children, and their parents should have been vaccinated by now.

    The public health powers tat be, and.pr the teachers’ unions, are scaring them. And censorship or near censorship is making it difficult to get things clear, especially when the people who most write independently are lying.

    Children under 10 or 11 are very good at fighting off novel infections and Covid-19 isn’t all that powerful an infection.

    They can get an auto-immune disorder, which is the main problem with Covid for children, but they know how to diagnose and treat it now (with a steroid)

    Masks should logically help some, to an unknown degree, but more important is ventilation and limiting the total number of other people any individual child is close to – as well as sunlight – is more important..

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  56. 35. What do you mean by viral vector?

    mRNA produces immunity to only one component of the virus – intended to be a necessary part. The mRNA infects cells and destroys them but what the cells produce is not a whole virus but just the spike protein.

    The second round presumably has no effect on the cells because there’s no RNA or DNA piggybacking along there.

    There is no third iteration, so it is self-limiting..

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  57. 40. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 9/1/2021 @ 5:37 am

    when does the clock get turned back on us from “fully vaccinated” to “partially vaccinated”?

    Six or eight months after the second shot, provided that booster shots are now available and recommended.

    Or they may use an alternative term.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  58. What do you mean by viral vector?

    https://portal.ct.gov/vaccine-portal/Vaccine-Knowledge-Base/Articles/mRNA-vs-Viral-Vector?language=en_US

    The instructions in the mRNA vaccines are messenger RNA (mRNA), the genetic material that tells your cells how to make proteins. The mRNA is surrounded by tiny lipids (fatty molecules) which help mRNA enter directly into your cells. Once your cells create the spike proteins, your body breaks down the mRNA.

    In viral vector vaccines, spike protein DNA is placed inside a modified version of a different virus that doesn’t cause illness. This non-harmful virus delivers the DNA instructions to your cells – this virus is called the vector.

    Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA; J & J and AstraZeneca are viral vector.

    nk (1d9030)

  59. @32

    @28, given that people are taking horse deworming medicine rather then the vaccine I think Kevin’s point is pretty valid.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 3:07 am

    You mean ivermectin?

    Or, do you mean folks are taking the veterinarian version of ivermectin?

    Its an anti-parasite medicine that you can take prophylactically that has shown remarkable impact in reducing the severity of the covid disease (note it’s only a therapeutic, not a cure). Just look at the map of Inda’s delta covid infection…. a country with extremely low vaccination rates. Guess what they used to ample supply? Ivermectin, which is a medication they used quite a bit because of their regional parasite infections.

    whembly (2900b2)

  60. @60, the morons taking the veterinary version, especially as a preventative.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  61. But yes, folks taking the veternarian version of ivermectin is dumb. Veternarian drugs are not manufactured with the same sterile scrutiny as the ones made for human consumption.

    Unfortunately, folks using veternarian version of drugs for human consumptions is an old, old story. Preppers are known to stockpile veternarian drugs with the eye of using it when society collaspe for as long as I remember. There are ways to sterilize some of these drugs and reduce concentrations for human consumptions, but you’d need a chemist set and more than basic knowledge as a pharmacist to really make it decent.

    whembly (2900b2)

  62. @62, people also use them to save costs. That’s sad, but doesn’t seem to be the case here. It’s especially silly since the vaccine is free and treatment for Covid is free/heavily subsidized

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  63. My response @64 got stuck in moderation for my use of a swear word. Sorry about that. I’ll repost with it if the mods doesn’t kick it out.

    whembly (e2380c)

  64. My response @64 got stuck in moderation for my use of a swear word. Sorry about that. I’ll repost with it if the mods doesn’t kick it out.

    whembly (e2380c)

  65. 62. whembly (2900b2) — 9/1/2021 @ 7:52 am

    But yes, folks taking the veternarian version of ivermectin is dumb. Veternarian drugs are not manufactured with the same sterile scrutiny as the ones made for human consumption.

    But they can be ought without a prescription and the human version cannot be had because doctors could get in trouble for prescribing it.

    Even better than ivermectin would be low doses of the Regeneron monoclonal antibodies, which now doesn’t even need to be administered with an infusion, but the FDA is stopping all these sorts of things.

    Yes, a vaccine can e a more permanent solution, but some people don’t want to take it.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  66. LATimes Column: Why a lifelong Democrat and education reformer is supporting Larry Elder for governor

    “ She believes the California Teachers Assn. and United Teachers Los Angeles are great for teachers and terrible for students, most of whom are Black and Latino.

    It is no coincidence, she says, that more than 70% of California prison inmates, most of whom are also Black and Latino, lack high school diplomas.”

    https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-08-31/gloria-romero-education-reformer-supports-governor

    The Times is holding its nose in much of this column but at least they wrote it.

    If the recall overcomes the massive ‘NO’ spending and guaranteed mail ballot fraud, the scaremongering by the teachers re Covid will have at least a small part to do with it.

    Obudman (676dac)

  67. Just look at the map of Inda’s delta covid infection…. a country with extremely low vaccination rates.

    The Indian government canceled ivermectin, HCQ and couple other anti-vax favorites as treatments for Covid.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  68. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 7:57 am

    folks taking the veternarian version of ivermectin is dumb

    I think it’s possible we’ve had more comments, across the different threads, on the subject than people actually doing it.

    frosty (f27e97)

  69. We should try to get the facts on India.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  70. @70 since these idiots aren’t volunteering when they do this there’s no way to tell for sure. At least we can all agree they’re stupid.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  71. Hey Frosty, remember the Darwin awards? There’s a great example of the peanut gallery outnumbering the subjects.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  72. I have antibodies Time123. Way better than becoming a serum junkie.

    mg (8cbc69)

  73. Sammy, My understanding was the data out of India was highly suspect. Do you know if that’s correct or is there data unreliable?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  74. @74, I’m glad you’re OK.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  75. #60 etc

    August 9, 2021:

    https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout/article_e3db8f46-f942-11eb-9eea-77d5e2519364.html

    vermectin Wins in India

    News of India’s defeat of the Delta variant should be common knowledge. It is just about as obvious as the nose on one’s face. It is so clear when one looks at the graphs that no one can deny it.

    Yet, for some reason, we are not allowed to talk about it. Thus, for example, Wikipedia cannot mention the peer-reviewed meta-analyses by Dr. Tess Lawrie or Dr. Pierre Kory published in the American Journal of Therapeutics.

    https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/wikipedia-and-a-pint-of-gin/article_22ffa0d8-dde9-11eb-be75-d7b0b1f2ff67.html

    Wikipedia is not allowed to publish the recent meta-analysis on Ivermectin authored by Dr. Andrew Hill. Furthermore, it is not allowed to say anything concerning http://www.ivmmeta.com showing the 61 studies comprising 23,000 patients which reveal up to a 96% reduction in death [prophylaxis] with Ivermectin.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  76. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 9:07 am

    Hey Frosty, remember the Darwin awards? There’s a great example of the peanut gallery outnumbering the subjects.

    I don’t remember many laws being proposed banning people from entering indoor businesses or working based on Darwin awards.

    frosty (f27e97)

  77. Since no one is doing that based horse medicine I’m not sure what your point is.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  78. The problem is there isn’t reliable data on India, especially with Covid deaths. Going by excess death statistics, it’s likely that the reported number of 439k dead Indians from Covid is off by nearly an order of magnitude.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  79. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 9:49 am

    Yes, I think we’ve established that horse medicine has nothing to do with people intentionally getting COVID to avoid the vaccine and that has nothing to do with this proposed law in CA that you and KM aren’t in favor of.

    frosty (f27e97)

  80. I still think it demonstrates that people have a propensity to do really stupid stuff WRT to Covid.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  81. nk, that’s also a thing: if you’re utterly unwilling to vote for anyone who calls themselves a Republican unless they are also willing to say Biden is legitimate and the election was not stolen … there’s nobody to vote for. the democrats in the race are all single-issue, insane (Mando, for example), or clueless (Paffrath seems to think he can solve everything with a magic wand), and the third party and decline to state candidates are almost as bad.

    someone’s gonna be governor, and newsom, as bad as he is, is preferable to any of these clowns.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  82. Sometimes it makes sense to vote for the worser of two evils. How much damage can, say, Larry Elder, do in a year? What might he prevent?

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  83. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 10:02 am

    I still think it demonstrates that people have a propensity to do really stupid stuff WRT to Covid any given issue.

    I agree. Water is wet, some people might have eaten bath salts, 10% of Americans believe the moon landing was fake, etc.

    frosty (f27e97)

  84. Ivermectin can be therapeutic if used early, but it is not a DIY drug.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  85. There is so much we dont know. For instance, focusing on the vulnerable instead of the healthy herd may have helped the dangerous variants evolve. The point of public vaccination is to create immunity that protects the free-roaming herd but we let our emotions cause us to focus first on the weaker outliers.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  86. Right on cue … the Mu variant may be vaccine resistant.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  87. I’m sure I’ll get a lot of positive feedback on this one but it seems relevant to a lot of the back and forth that keeps showing up here.

    Why are people not concerned about sliding into tyranny?

    It’s with Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying so if that helps you prejudge the content you’re welcome.

    frosty (f27e97)

  88. DRJ (03cb91) — 9/1/2021 @ 10:46 am

    Are we sure it’s not vaccine curious? Have we given it a chance to be its authentic self or have we already forced it into a hetero-normative paradigm?

    frosty (f27e97)

  89. Weinstein and his wife have jumped on the pro-dewormer bandwagon, and now they’re making ominous noises about “tyranny”. Pffft.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  90. Paul, Really? I didn’t watch the video. Frosty posted a link to some people arguing for the dewormer?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  91. Time123, they didn’t specifically talk about the dewormer in the video (full disclosure, I didn’t hang on every single word).
    Rather, they danced around the idea of vaccine mandates, alluding that there is an “obvious slide into tyranny”, but Weinstein has been beating the ivermectin drum for awhile, joining the likes of Dr. Kory of the discredited Frontline Doctors group, and he’s made bogus anti-vax statements with another set of cranks.
    It’s disappointing really, because Evergreen State College is less than two hours from my house and I followed the intimidation campaign against him there quite closely.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  92. 88. Read the article closely and you can see it’s not vaccine resistant.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  93. @70

    The Indian government canceled ivermectin, HCQ and couple other anti-vax favorites as treatments for Covid.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 9/1/2021 @ 8:52 am

    That I didn’t know.

    Thanks.

    whembly (e2380c)

  94. @87

    Ivermectin can be therapeutic if used early, but it is not a DIY drug.

    DRJ (03cb91) — 9/1/2021 @ 10:36 am

    Good find!

    Yes, it’s a therapeutic and like all drugs…DIY drugs is not a good thing to encourage.

    whembly (e2380c)

  95. DIY drugs is not a good thing to encourage.

    Of course DIY drugs are for some things. It s=is called over the counter.

    The problem is they want to stop doctors from giving imvermectin. And to stop the general public from doing it, they are telling half truths.

    And of course better than ivermectin is the Regeneron antibodies – but they are not yet available for prevention but they will be in half a year to a year. The FDA wants to maintain its authority.

    People who tell the truth don’t zhallenge government advice much. They have too much at stake. Only liars do for the most part..

    whembly (e2380c) — 9/1/2021 @ 12:10 pm

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  96. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 11:32 am

    It’s probably not safe for you to watch it. That’s why I posted it with some context.

    frosty (f27e97)

  97. Whembly & Paul, How does the old line about alternative medicine go? “Alternative medicine doesn’t work. If it worked we’d just all it medicine.”

    I have no real attachment to any specific treatment or prevatative. I’d like things to get back to normal ASAP and the data seems to say the fastest way for that to happen would to get everyone vaccinated that can be vaccinated.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  98. If it worked the people involved would probably try for years to get it approved.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  99. And be very careful about promoting it so as not to anger the FDA.

    But sometimes it does work, like zinc and Vitamin D.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  100. @98, Since you asked; I watched it after Paul’s comment because a pro horse de-wormer argument might have been interesting. Paul over sold that. The video wasn’t particularly interesting and didn’t raise ideas I thought were novel so I didn’t see a reason to comment further.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  101. @101 I too am a vaccine honk and regularly encourage the hesitants in my circle.

    But, government sucks at educating the public and has since rendered their credibility to the gutters. They’re doing everything they can, to ignore natural immunities from those who recovered.

    Ivermectin has a place in covid therapies.

    Hydroxychloriquin has a place too (although just a narrow focus and isn’t widely used).

    I know of a clinic in my city that regularly prescribe oral dexamethasone as a preventative anti-inflammation for folks self-quarrantining at home. There’s a belief that drug helps prevent cases where hospitalization is needed. However, I was told more than a few times that this kind of therapy is “kept on the down low” so that politics doesn’t interfere like Ivermectin/Hydroxychloriqine. I absolutely know its a standard regimen for recently admitted ED covid patients, so that makes sense. Dexamethasone is an old medication and cheap. But, the thing we need to grasp, is that there’s no silver bullet, no absolute immunity for covid. It’s going to be a cyclical strain like the flu and we need to treat it as such, while advocating for vaccine acceptance.

    whembly (2900b2)

  102. Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/1/2021 @ 12:23 pm

    Or we’d call it something else. Physical exercise and staying in shape are known to reduce your risk of a variety of diseases including COVID. There are a number of beneficial effects of simply taking a walk outdoors so long as you don’t play in the street.

    frosty (f27e97)

  103. I didn’t offer an estimate on how much.

    Nor did I. But the stupidity that surrounds this thing is vast and apparently bottomless. Tracking chips for godsakes.

    Kevin M (e4323c)

  104. remember – the chances of any one person dying from COVID are remote.

    1 in 1000 is not “remote.” If one in a 1000 stadium spectators were to die each game, the stands would be empty.

    Kevin M (e4323c)

  105. whembly (2900b2) — 9/1/2021 @ 12:38 pm

    They’re doing everything they can, to ignore natural immunities from those who recovered.

    It’s impossible to quantify how valuable it is, and they did no double blind studies on the protection given by a prior infection, unlike what they did with the vaccines, so they just ignore it.

    Of course you could make a pretty good educated guess, and differentiate between different levels of antibodies different people have

    Whatever you can’t prove, doesn’t exist. That’s their “science.”

    And everything has got to be reviewed and approved before it becomes real, except of course, for their first initial guesses however obviously flawed they may have been.

    Of course it;s ridiculous. You couldn’t satirize this enough.

    I know of a clinic in my city that regularly prescribe oral dexamethasone as a preventative anti-inflammation for folks self-quarrantining at home.

    Wrong wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Ddexamethasone is for when an immune response is too strong, and somebody;s going to go to the hospital long before that. Meanwhile it’ll make the immune response too weak. This is probably the result of misguidance from public health authorities.

    . But, the thing we need to grasp, is that there’s no silver bullet

    Of course there’s a silver bullet. It’s the Regeneron antibodies, if given early enough.

    https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/regenerons-regen-cov2-first-antibody-cocktail-covid-19-receive

    no absolute immunity for covid.

    But oretty good, and more than most vaccines for other diseases give. They are counting all positives identical and giving extremely sensitive PCR tests.

    It’s going to be a cyclical strain like the flu and we need to treat it as such,

    Well, that’s what they say.

    But like the 1918 flu, it may, like Donald Trump said, disappear one day, like a miracle, only not as soon as he thoughr then – perhaps because he wasn’t listening closely to whoever told him that.

    It may take several years to disappear.

    while advocating for vaccine acceptance.

    You can never get 100% of the people to agree on anything. When did that ever happen?

    You won’t even get here the percentages that agree on other vaccines. They should offer alternatives.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  106. Kevin M (e4323c) — 9/1/2021 @ 1:07 pm

    1 in 1000 is not “remote.” If one in a 1000 stadium spectators were to die each game, the stands would be empty.

    Each game? Yea, I guess that would put a damper on going to an event.

    I wonder what the per-game equivalent for the covid odds is?

    frosty (f27e97)

  107. I have no real attachment to any specific treatment or prevatative. I’d like things to get back to normal ASAP and the data seems to say the fastest way for that to happen would to get everyone vaccinated that can be vaccinated.

    Agreed.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  108. @83 The Republican candidates cannot afford to offend the Trumpkins. That doesn’t mean they agree with the Trumpkins. It’s all about building a winning coalition. I doubt that Elder or Faulconer would go all Trumpy should either of them win. Rather, I envision them following in the steps of Schwarzenegger, and moderating once in office. They have to, if they want a shot at re-election.

    norcal (3dd9fa)

  109. Rip, that’s not an accurate summary as it implies he used the Horse deworming medicine the morons have been taking, his use of “we” implies what he took was prescribed by a physician.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  110. @112-

    I didn’t feel like posting anything more.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  111. Rip, that’s fair. I just wanted point out difference between the horse deworming meds for humans.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  112. @109

    Wrong wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Ddexamethasone is for when an immune response is too strong, and somebody;s going to go to the hospital long before that. Meanwhile it’ll make the immune response too weak. This is probably the result of misguidance from public health authorities.
    .

    But, the thing we need to grasp, is that there’s no silver bullet

    Of course there’s a silver bullet. It’s the Regeneron antibodies, if given early enough.

    https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/regenerons-regen-cov2-first-antibody-cocktail-covid-19-receive

    Sammy, dexamethasone is a very common steroid to reduce mild-to-severe inflammation. Covid is a vascular disease that is known to compound patient’s inflammation. These doses, given prophylactically are similar to those prednisone steroid dosepak.

    And no, regeneron is only about 95+% successful. Not a silver bullet, but damn near for sure.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  113. President Plagiarist is the only Washington swamp creature in the history the of the United States Senate to wake up in the morning as POTUS, look into the mirror and say,

    “Good morning, Senator. Do I know you?”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  114. Another reason to vote these Democrat bums out…

    In 2014, in the middle of a severe drought that would test California’s complex water storage system like never before, voters told the state to borrow $7.5 billion and use part of it to build projects to stockpile more water.

    Seven years later, that drought has come and gone, replaced by an even hotter and drier one that is draining the state’s reservoirs at an alarming rate. But none of the more than half-dozen water storage projects scheduled to receive that money have been built.

    https://www.kpbs.org/news/2021/sep/01/years-later-california-voters-still-wait-water-pro/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  115. If the projects were completed, it would be a tough task to ask for more money. The hardest part of getting money appropriated is finding good reasons to spend it. Better to do nothing, since then you don’t need to find a new purpose, which might not fly. Water storage is one that has been proven to work.

    This is actually corruption on a massive scale, although maybe nothing strictly illegal was done. It could be worth investigating to see if anybody rigged the rules somewhere.

    They’ve got it worked out almost to a science now.

    There is corruption in education also. I don’t mean diverting money – I mean what the money is assigned to. Nothing is embezzled, but it is corruption of the worst kind. (they are promoting adding extra years of schooling now in an attempt to cover up for their failures)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  116. whembly (ae0eb5) — 9/1/2021 @ 6:24 pm

    Sammy, dexamethasone is a very common steroid to reduce mild-to-severe inflammation.

    Yes, and that means it damps down the immune system.

    Covid is a vascular disease that is known to compound patient’s inflammation.

    Yes, in severe cases the immune system may be doing a lot of harm.

    And no, regeneron is only about 95+% successful. Not a silver bullet, but damn near for sure.

    In some cases they may not be shooting enough bullets at the virus.

    The one problem with monoclonal antibodies is that it’s the place where a new variant is most likely to render it ineffective. That is because they pick only two antigens. OF COURSE THEY COULD ADAPT AND CHANGE THE FRMULATION MORE QUICKLY BUT THE FDA WOULD NEVER ALLOW THAT IF IT STAYS THE WAY IT IS.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  117. Each game? Yea, I guess that would put a damper on going to an event..

    Covid case. You’re the one claiming it’s nothing to worry about, to the point where you defend avoiding the vaccine as logical.

    Kevin M (e4323c)

  118. Kevin M (e4323c) — 9/2/2021 @ 5:47 pm

    I’m against mandates. I don’t like trying to bully people or manipulate them with fear. I don’t like abusing stats. I’m in favor of people making up their own mind with accurate information.

    But I’ve never said don’t get the vaccine. It’s you who’ve decided that the only two options are 100% vaccinations and cheerleading or antivax.

    You’re the one claiming it’s so much to worry about you’re ok with firing people, keeping them out of stores, and otherwise embracing anything you think will get people to comply with your demands.

    frosty (f27e97)

  119. #121 “I’m in favor of people making up their own mind with accurate information.”

    Are you really?

    Let’s try some simple examples: First, Miss Jones is elderly with a compromised immune system. Despite that she has been able, for many years, to run a small shop selling luxury widgets. Can she protect her own health by requiring customers to show a vaccination card, or a negative COVID test? Or would she be asking for too much accurate information?

    Second, Mr. Smith manages a small budget airline. The airline is marginal, and Smith knows that a substantial legal settlement would bankrupt the airline. (And in our litigious nation, he recognizes that, if there is a COVID outbreak traced to his airline, lawsuits will follow inevitably.) Can Smith require that his employees be vaccinated? Or should customers of the airline have to guess about vaccination status of those employees?

    Third, a poor small city runs a charity nursing home. Should the residents have to guess about the employees’ vaccination status? Or would they be asking for too much information?

    Fourth, many cities, my own included, put health ratings on businesses that serve food. Should the cities also put up vaccination status of the employees at businesses? Or would that information be too accurate for your tastes?

    Fifth, as I am sure you know, “Typhoid” Rand, suspecting he had COVID, exercised in the Senate gym, unmasked. Did “Typhoid” have an obligation to warn others in the gym? Or would that be too much accurate information for your tastes? Could any Senate employees who caught the disease from him sue him?

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  120. Tired of these idiot maskholes.

    WTF. Fighter pilots wear a mask when they ‘go to work.’ It keeps ’em alive. Why the hell can’t the rest of the country.

    “They’re called aviators in the Navy– they say they’re better than pilots!” – ‘THe Right Stuff’ 1983

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  121. @122 Those are very good examples and questions, Jim.

    norcal (a6130b)

  122. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/2/2021 @ 7:57 pm

    I’d allow Miss Jones to run her shop as she sees fit but I don’t think that means what you think it means. For example, I’d let Jones trespass anyone that looked at her funny. But that lets her be a bigot which we can’t have. So, in the real world business that are open to the public are generally required to be open to the public. Did Jones suddenly acquire this need for accurate information? Will it go away with COVID? I happen to know a person in such a condition so it’s not a hypothetical. That person didn’t feel that they had the right to make everyone else conform to their desire for safety. If Smith were robbed would she have the right to frisk everyone coming in? Can Smith pick and choose people based on other criteria? Can she profile based on criminal risk? I’m guessing you’re thinking she only gets this new ability to check for COVID? I’d be willing to give her all of them.

    Same for Smith. Does Mr. Smith also have this right for the flu or any other communicable illness? Is there any place where people are able to sue for this? I know for a fact that there are states where people can not. If Smith is a union shop shouldn’t this be a contract renegotiation?

    A poor city? Running a charity nursing home? Which is it? Is it owned by the city or a charity? When you say residents are these of the city or of the nursing home? I feel like you’re just making this up since you could have used a regular nursing home. Same as above though. A company can do this but do they get to do everything else this implies? Can they choose not to when the realize this might drive up their labor costs? Or is that the point of making it required for everyone? The hope that you can avoid the unintended consequences?

    Should the health inspector include anything else other than COVID? I’m not sure most of these places comply with e-verify but sure, let’s let the health inspector round up all of the vaccine cards.

    They can try to sue for damages. I’d like to see how that worked out.

    Like I said, I’m all for people making their own choices and your examples fit that profile. But that isn’t really what we’re talking about. What we’re talking about is a state passing a law, that was the topic of this post after all, because some people are afraid not enough businesses will do what you want voluntarily. I’m not on board with that.

    All of your examples imply that you have a right to demand other people make you feel safe. If you are occupying a small space where it is impossible for you to not breath the same air as other people you are agreeing to everything that goes along with that. If you choose not to accept those terms you don’t have to occupy the space. I’m guessing you don’t see it that way though. I’m guessing you think you’ve got a right to do the things you want to do and it’s everyone else that needs to get on board with making that happen. If they won’t you’re willing to use the power of the state.

    I’m also guessing you’re thinking this is ok because of the level of risk. But we all don’t agree on that level or even if there is a level where some of these steps are acceptable.

    frosty (f27e97)

  123. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/2/2021 @ 7:57 pm

    I’d also suggest that based on Kevin M’s prior comments he also doesn’t believe any of the people you listed have a right to choose to do any of the things you listed. He’s described going unvaxxed as a criminal act. Smith and Jones don’t have a right to allow that.

    frosty (f27e97)

  124. Open southern borders, afghani unvaxed arrivals -and they want me to serum up.
    GTFOH

    mg (8cbc69)

  125. Damn right, mg! Air pollution, ozone layer depletion, GMOs in all our foods, and they want me to stop at red lights! Can you believe the nerve?

    nk (1d9030)

  126. MG, you’re a prefect example of the problem; culture warriors rejecting something that works for entirely unrelated tribalism.

    Time123 (224669)

  127. To be fair that’s only one part of one problem, but it s a big part of a big problem.

    Time123 (224669)

  128. Alias Smith & Jones? How would teh Partridge Family have fared?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  129. https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/ny-teachers-union-vaccine-mandate-bargaining-20210902-urojdv43pzcyrhnkyykrgszhty-story.html

    Mulgrew said city negotiators have proposed placing DOE workers who receive the exemptions on unpaid leave — an idea he called “disgusting.”

    I guess they lose something, but the article does not tell you what

    Mulgrew told UFT members in an email that union lawyers “believe the mandate has a strong legal foundation,” but that the UFT will fight for “fair and equitable process for medical and religious exemptions, an independent review and appeal process for members who are denied an exemption, and an appropriate outcome for members who decline to be vaccinated.”

    ,,,,Mulgrew said the city suggested that anyone with a religious exemption is immediately moved to unpaid leave, while those with medical exemptions are allowed to use up their remaining sick days and then moved to unpaid leave.

    The teachers’ union believes those with exemptions should be assigned to giving lessons online, or doing work on testing or curriculum from home while receiving pay and benefits….

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  130. https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-unvaccinated-teacher-covid-infects-half-class-12-kids-20210828-mec7gbievvbx5duus7kv4x5ndy-story.html

    The children, whose ages weren’t listed, were put in harm’s way in northern California in the spring when that educator read to the class of 24 indoors “on occasion” while not wearing a required mask.

    Of the 12 kids infected, eight reported COVID symptoms. None of the children were eligible for vaccines on account of their ages. Eight of the students infected were seated in the two rows closest to the teacher’s desk with the other four being in the back three rows.
    Students; desks were places six feet apart and they were required to wear masks. Only 22 students were tested.

    So ordinary masks don’t do too much good, but might matter for a contagious person – but more important is not having the disease and ventilation. I=This article says nothing about how serious a case the children had, or if anybody even would have noticed anything if they hadn’t been tested.

    Two of the children evidently either declined to be tested or were absent when that was done)

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  131. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/2/2021 @ 7:57 pm

    Since you like the hypotheticals here’s another one.

    Let’s say you’ve got a county next to a major metro. The county isn’t rural and it’s got a high population density. Over the entire course of COVID it hasn’t had an issue with ICU capacity. For long stretches the 7 day average for deaths has been 0 (not less than 1 rounded down but actually 0). The case count has also been low. The state itself has done well generally and most of the cases are concentrated in a few urban counties.

    Should the school system here implement a policy for a problem it doesn’t have? Should the employers do the same? Should a federal mandate created based on something going on in another state be applied to this one? Should a state law meant to deal with something in two or three counties be applied to all of them? Should employees here be subject to rules created by companies in other states dealing with issues that don’t apply to these people?

    In your hypo does Smith & Jones, if they live in this county, have the freedom not to mandate vaccines for customers? Do they have that freedom generally?

    If you are worried about Smith’s business would you favor a law limiting business liability for catching COVID? This would also help that mythical city run charity nursing home.

    frosty (f27e97)

  132. Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 9/3/2021 @ 6:13 am

    This article says nothing about how serious a case the children had, or if anybody even would have noticed anything if they hadn’t been tested.

    I’m sure that’s by accident. There’s no way the article could have been headlined “unvaxxed teacher forgets mask; nothing serious happens”.

    frosty (f27e97)

  133. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 9/2/2021 @ 7:57 pm

    Here’s another hypo:

    Let’s say Miss Jones works as a nurse in an ER instead. With her autoimmune issue does she have the right to refuse service to the unvaxxed? Can the entire ER refuse service during her shift? What about refusing service to the unvaxxed 24×7?

    frosty (f27e97)

  134. frosty (f27e97) — 9/3/2021 @ 7:28 am

    There’s no way the article could have been headlined “unvaxxed teacher forgets mask; nothing serious happens”.

    Well, it could have been: ” “scare at Marin Co elementary school, after sick-for-two-days unvaxxed teacher takes off mask indoors to read aloud to kids (at least half the masked kids who had desks spaced six feet apart get infected but nothing serious happens)”

    This happened back in May. The scholl had two unvaxxed teachers at the time.

    The teacher who removed her mask onlt stopped going to work after getting a positive Covid test result. She had had cold symptoms but continued to teach for two days.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  135. @DCSCA:

    https://www.covidpillstudy.com

    Applies to anyone with Covid infection or whp tested ppstive in the previous five days.

    This is a cure, not a vaccine – half the people will get a placebo – I don’t know if they are not supposed to do to combat Covid.

    There’s a 98.5% or higher chance the treatment r else Pfizer wouldnt sponsor the study, because the major pharmaceutical companies are way ahead of the FDA/

    In other news: Two people at the FDA leaving their jobs because they are being cut out of the vaccine approval process – complain of political interference by the White House.

    Moderna wants the third (booster) shot to be half strength (to minimize side effects obviously) FDA is reluctant to do so – still concentrating only on maximum strength of immune response. (except that vaccines can also wait.)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  136. I mean DCSCA.

    o the pill is coming.

    It’s a therapeutic not a vaccine and can give only several months protection.

    That is why it’s so important to continue to advance not only prevention, but also treatment of COVID-19. These clinical trials are evaluating whether an oral study drug reduces the duration and/or severity of illness among people with COVID-19 or prevents the onset of COVID-19 symptoms in household members.

    It has to be the first time someone tests positive for Covid and there are several other criteria.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  137. Well said frosty. I give you credit for playing with the strawmen and countering appropriately.

    NJRob (eb56c3)


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