Patterico's Pontifications

8/19/2021

North Texas: Covid-19 Patients Vaccination Status Now Taken Into Consideration When Triaging Patients

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:27 pm



[guest post by Dana]

I suspect we will start to see more of these decisions being made as Covid continues to surge throughout parts of the country, and resources become stretched. We are cautioned, however, that although vaccination status is now on the table in North Texas it should not be assumed that a non-vaccinated person will be denied care when competing with a vaccinated patient for an ICU bed. It will just be another factor taken into consideration, along with a patient’s underlying condition and the likelihood that a patient will get better and leave the hospital:

North Texas doctors have quietly developed a plan that seeks to prepare for the possibility that due to the COVID-19 surge the region will run out of intensive-care beds.

If that happens, for the first time, doctors officially will be allowed to take vaccination status of sick patients into account along with other triage factors to see who gets a bed.

A copy of an internal memo written by Dr. Robert Fine, co-chair of the North Texas Mass Critical Care Guideline Task Force, was sent to members of the task force — and leaked to The Watchdog. It summarizes the latest work by the task force, a volunteer group that periodically updates medical guidelines for hospitals in our region. There are about 50 members from various hospitals in the group. Although their recommendations are not enforceable, the guidelines are generally followed.

The one-page summary memo is a “heads up” alert in the event things get worse, says Dr. Mark Casanova, director of clinical ethics for Baylor University Medical Center and a spokesperson for the task force. After Monday’s meeting, doctors had yet to make plans to inform the public.

“We’re trying to decide how to explain this addition to the public,” Casanova said.

Although doctors make triage decisions all the time, the proposed guideline addition is significant. Casanova predicted that if this change were copied by others medical care, for as long as the crisis persists, “is going to look and feel different for everybody who is alive right now in the United States of America.”

Cited concerns: This will hurt communities of color and lower-income Americans where there may be less availability/accessibility of the vaccine.

Meanwhile, Parkland Hospital employees, who are exhausted and stretched to the brink due to staffing shortage and a surge in patients, are pleading with residents to get vaccinated. Parkland’s chief of medicine said there were nearly 500 vacancies from a prolonged shortage made worse by the pandemic. Reinforcements are now headed toward the DFW area to help relieve the limited number of exhausted health care workers burnt out by the Delta variant surge in the region.

Given the limited beds, resources, and health care workers, it makes sense that a patient’s vaccination status now be factored into any decision-making made by those in charge. It’s unfortunate that this is where things are at now, but something’s got to give…

–Dana

66 Responses to “North Texas: Covid-19 Patients Vaccination Status Now Taken Into Consideration When Triaging Patients”

  1. Get vaccinated!

    Dana (174549)

  2. Only the sophisticated get the vaccine, booster and then the china flu.

    mg (8cbc69)

  3. Meanwhile, Parkland Hospital employees, who are exhausted and stretched to the brink due to staffing shortages

    That’s odd.. Maybe there is a reason?

    Massive Nurse Shortage Hits Houston—Weeks After 150 Unvaccinated Nurses and Hospital Workers Fired

    Houston hospitals have “reached a breaking point” amid a COVID-19 outbreak, which struck weeks after 150 hospital workers were fired by Houston Methodist hospital, one of several hospitals struggling….

    ....”All last year, through the COVID pandemic, we came to work and did our jobs,” said Kara Shepherd, a labor and delivery nurse who joined Bridges and other workers in an unsuccessful lawsuit. “We did what we were asked. This year, we’re basically told we’re disposable.”

    ‘Please Send Help Now’

    Shepherd and her colleagues may be disposable in the eyes of hospital administrators, but they are perhaps not as easily replaced as she or Houston Methodist thought.

    Two months after firing unvaccinated hospital staff, Houston Methodist is one of several area hospitals experiencing a severe shortage of medical personnel. Media reports say hospitals have “reached a breaking point” because of a flood of COVID-19 cases.

    https://fee.org/articles/massive-nurse-shortage-hits-houston-weeks-after-150-unvaccinated-nurses-and-hospital-workers-fired/

    Whoops.

    We livid in a time where everyone who screws up manages to claim they were caught off guard by the results of their screwups.

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  4. Get vaccinated!

    Dana (174549) — 8/19/2021 @ 3:27 pm

    The people are listening, Dana:

    Nation hits 1M vaccinations benchmark for first time in seven weeks

    More than one million Americans received a dose of Covid-19 vaccine on Thursday, a benchmark the nation has not met in nearly seven weeks amid a resurgence of the coronavirus pandemic.

    White House Covid-19 Data Director Cyrus Shahpar announced the vaccine upswing on Twitter, noting a 31 percent week-over-week increase in the daily average of those becoming fully vaccinated. He said Thursday’s numbers include 562,000 newly vaccinated people.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  5. I told you so.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  6. This will hurt communities of color and lower-income Americans where there may be less availability/accessibility of the vaccine.

    Oh, please. There is not a CVS in this country that won’t give you a shot on demand, for free. I’m not sure about some post-office/drug-store/feedlot in a two-horse town, but nearly every US citizen has had free access to this drug for several months, and they still do today.

    I hope that this announcement, which will be followed by others, will encourage the ignorant or slothful to get vaccinated. Not much can be done about the militants though.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  7. Every Native American in the remotest New Mexico reservation villiage has had to forcibly resist federal healthcare workers on numerous occasions if they were insistent on being vaccine-free. I don’t buy this whine.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. Weeks After 150 Unvaccinated Nurses and Hospital Workers Fired

    Would you hire an anti-vaxx nurse for your hospital? What would your malpractice insurer say?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. Oh, please. There is not a CVS in this country that won’t give you a shot on demand, for free. I’m not sure about some post-office/drug-store/feedlot in a two-horse town, but nearly every US citizen has had free access to this drug for several months, and they still do today.

    Kevin M, I am not familiar with that area of Texas, and really can’t speak to the availability of the vaccine and the outreaches that have been done, however, the DFW area is certainly not some backwater-out-of-the-way region. I’m going to assume that there is a sufficient amount of vaccines to go around. That isn’t the problem…

    Dana (174549)

  10. A vaccine that’s already on booster #3 or #4 in less than a year is a weak brew. ‘Pig Pharma’ are master marketers, milking the government for $$$$$$$ pitching endless booster after booster… Add Biden’s blarney to the sales pitch and credibility is fully ‘shot.’

    There’s a tablet for everything in America. Wait for the pill.

    “Experiment with your own lives, damn it!” – Dr. Charles Dutton [David Wayne] ‘The Andromeda Strain’ 1971

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  11. Are you expecting malpractice lawsuits for the period of time that started when the vaccine were available to nurses and ending on the day the hospital fired the nurses for not taking a vaccine that has a very limited period of effectiveness?

    Will their me malpractice lawsuits for vaccinated nurses that haven’t got the booster?

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  12. Oops..

    Will there be…

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  13. North Texas: Covid-19 Patients Vaccination Status Now Taken Into Consideration When Triaging Patients

    from the article quoted in the post

    North Texas doctors have quietly developed a plan that seeks to prepare for the possibility that due to the COVID-19 surge the region will run out of intensive-care beds.

    If that happens, for the first time, doctors officially will be allowed to take vaccination status of sick patients into account along with other triage factors to see who gets a bed.

    It’s almost like present and future tense are the same thing. But wait, there’s more.

    Although their recommendations are not enforceable, the guidelines are generally followed.

    and

    The one-page summary memo is a “heads up” alert in the event things get worse

    You’d almost think that right now your vaccination status is taken into account. You’d also think the phrase “North Texas doctors” includes something more than a task force of some sort. At least until you read the part of the article posted.

    The interesting part is there will be people here thinking these Trump humping antivaxxers deserve it if they won’t get vaccinated but the article makes a good point:

    That excludes the vulnerable poor and people of color, he says. Those groups have received poorer health care, in general, than richer, white communities.

    frosty (f27e97)

  14. “That’s odd.. Maybe there is a reason?”

    If you read the source article linked within, you’ll see that the layoffs represented about .5% of their total workforce.

    Davethulhu (aa6793)

  15. When there is a panic crisis that is exacerbated by staffing shortages, .5% staff loss really doesn’t matter, even though that is what the hospitals are bitching about.

    Honestly, I’m certain that an extra 150 people is totally unhelpful at this stage of the panic crisis.

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  16. Texas tragedy:

    A mom of 4 who died of covid days after her husband makes one final wish: ‘Make sure my kids get vaccinated’
    ……..
    …….. [A]fter a week-long church camp, [Lydia Rodriguez] and other members of her family tested positive for the coronavirus. By the time Rodriguez, 42, changed her mind and asked for the shot, it was too late, her doctor said. …..

    Out of options, the Galveston, Tex., mother of four, asked her family to make a promise: “Please make sure my kids get vaccinated,” Rodriguez, a piano teacher, told her sister during their last phone call.

    Rodriguez died Monday — two weeks after her husband, Lawrence Rodriguez, 49, also died after coronavirus complications. The couple fought the virus from hospital beds just a few feet from one another in a Texas intensive care unit, [cousin Dottie] Jones said.
    …….
    “Lydia has never really believed in vaccines,” Jones, 55, told The Post. “She believed that she could handle everything on her own, that you didn’t really need medicine.”

    A neonatal nurse, Jones was familiar with the serious effects covid-19 had on mothers and babies she treated at the Sugar Land, Tex., hospital where she worked. She shared with Rodriguez how she had watched patient after patient be connected to a ventilator for weeks without much improvement.
    ……….
    “I knew she would never get vaccinated,” Jones told The Post. “I was very concerned.”

    Rodriguez’s husband, who shared her anti-vaccine beliefs, also declined to get the shot. Three of their four children are eligible but have not yet received the vaccine, Jones said.
    ………
    [Lawrence Rodriguez] requested a coronavirus vaccine shortly before being put on a ventilator, Jones said, but it was also too late for him. He died Aug. 2.
    ……..
    The family has relayed her last wishes about the vaccine to the couple’s 18-year-old twins, Jones said. The plan is to schedule an appointment for the 11-year-old daughter as soon as she qualifies, and the couple’s 16-year-old son is expected to get the shot soon.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  17. Weeks After 150 Unvaccinated Nurses and Hospital Workers Fired

    How many were nurses and how many were hospital workers?

    nk (1d9030)

  18. I wondered the same thing about the 500 vacancies mentioned in the original post, nk.

    I have no idea.

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  19. Huh. So a bunch of doctors in north Texas are doing more contingency planning than Biden did when initiating his plan to leave Afghanistan…

    Hoi Polloi (998b37)

  20. That excludes the vulnerable poor and people of color, he says. Those groups have received poorer health care, in general, than richer, white communities.

    Frosty–

    Tell me of even one place in the DFW area where the poor and black are denied access to the Covid vaccine. It’s free, too, to everyone. Even just-over-the-border illegals.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. Texas requests five mortuary trailers in anticipation of Covid deaths

    With Covid-19 surging across the state, Texas has requested five mortuary trailers from the federal government in anticipation of an influx of dead bodies, state officials told NBC News.

    The mortuary trailers from the Federal Emergency Management Agency will be stationed in San Antonio and sent around the state at the request of local officials.

    Department of State Health Services spokesperson Doug Loveday said the trailers were requested Aug. 4 after officials reviewed data about increasing deaths as a third wave of the coronavirus struck the state.

    “We are anticipating a need within the state of Texas for these trailers as Covid cases and hospitalizations continue to increase,” Loveday said.
    …….
    Texas recorded 144 deaths Saturday, according to the latest available data. Over the last seven days, deaths averaged 80 a day in Texas, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The last time Texas’ seven-day average of Covid deaths was that high was March 16, 2021.

    Gov. Greg Abbott’s office did not respond to a request for comment about the need for mortuary trailers.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  22. This is sad. I hope people overcome their logistical issues and pig ignorant conspiracy theories and get vaccinated.

    Time123 (e5b03b)

  23. This policy seems unfair to the un-vaxxed folks who previously caught the virus and thereby have been “vaccinated” naturally.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  24. Tell me of even one place in the DFW area where the poor and black are denied access to the Covid vaccine. It’s free, too, to everyone. Even just-over-the-border illegals.

    Whew. I am glad that the doctors won’t have to use one’s status as a citizen of this country to decide whether or not you can have access to this country’s healthcare system.

    Maybe the illegals can use their ER wait time to apply for a mortgage…

    Hoi Polloi (998b37)

  25. This policy seems unfair to the un-vaxxed folks who previously caught the virus and thereby have been “vaccinated” naturally.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/19/2021 @ 5:18 pm

    Good point. I don’t know why they don’t accept an antibody test as a good degree of immunization.

    dustin (8d5210)

  26. Tell me of even one place in the DFW area where the poor and black are denied access to the Covid vaccine. It’s free, too, to everyone. Even just-over-the-border illegals.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/19/2021 @ 5:11 pm

    As if that’s going to matter. The minute an unvaccinated black person with COVID gets denied healthcare, it’s going to blow that whole triage plan out of the water due to political considerations–for the same reason that BLM/Antifa were given a protest exception last summer.

    The only reason people were saying that those without the coof shot should be denied healthcare out of spite was because they think they’ll get to see red-voting white people drop like flies. They don’t actually believe that black or Chicano people have refused to get vaccinated, because they and all their white liberal bourgeoisie wine friends don’t even think that’s an issue.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  27. Thank you Paul and dustin.

    mg (8cbc69)

  28. #5
    Didn’t Sarah Palin say we were gonna do death panels?

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  29. This is evil. You should not be apologizing for it.

    SarahW (08f5d7)

  30. Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19 Vaccination — Kentucky, May–June 2021

    Although laboratory evidence suggests that antibody responses following COVID-19 vaccination provide better neutralization of some circulating variants than does natural infection, few real-world epidemiologic studies exist to support the benefit of vaccination for previously infected persons. This report details the findings of a case-control evaluation of the association between vaccination and SARS-CoV-2 reinfection in Kentucky during May–June 2021 among persons previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020. Kentucky residents who were not vaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated (odds ratio [OR] = 2.34; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.58–3.47). These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection. To reduce their risk of infection, all eligible persons should be offered vaccination, even if they have been previously infected with SARS-CoV-2.
    …….
    Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 has been documented, but the scientific understanding of natural infection-derived immunity is still emerging. The duration of immunity resulting from natural infection, although not well understood, is suspected to persist for ≥90 days in most persons. The emergence of new variants might affect the duration of infection-acquired immunity, and laboratory studies have shown that sera from previously infected persons might offer weak or inconsistent responses against several variants of concern. For example, a recent laboratory study found that sera collected from previously infected persons before they were vaccinated provided a relatively weaker, and in some cases absent, neutralization response to the B.1.351 (Beta) variant when compared with the original Wuhan-Hu-1 strain. Sera from the same persons after vaccination showed a heightened neutralization response to the Beta variant, suggesting that vaccination enhances the immune response even to a variant to which the infected person had not been previously exposed. Although such laboratory evidence continues to suggest that vaccination provides improved neutralization of SARS-CoV-2 variants, limited evidence in real-world settings to date corroborates the findings that vaccination can provide improved protection for previously infected persons. The findings from this study suggest that among previously infected persons, full vaccination is associated with reduced likelihood of reinfection, and, conversely, being unvaccinated is associated with higher likelihood of being reinfected.
    …….
    Footnotes removed.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  31. Kevin and I have been stating as much for weeks.

    It should be taken a step further; allow insurance companies to raise premiums and/or deny coverage to those who refuse the vaccine without a valid medical reason.

    You want to be stupid? Fine. Just don’t expect to be subsidized for it.

    norcal (a6130b)

  32. It should be taken a step further; allow insurance companies to raise premiums and/or deny coverage to those who refuse the vaccine without a valid medical reason.

    Same plan for those whose vaccine lost efficacy? Where do booster shots come into the equation?

    What if you are “fully vaccinated” and in the prime window for the maximum protection the vaccine affords and you test positive for Covid and a transmission to a nursing home patient is traced to you? Do you recommend leg irons or the stockade?

    BuDuh (3bc006)

  33. @32

    No.

    We shall see.

    Not culpable.

    Neither.

    norcal (a6130b)

  34. There is a lawsuit against the DOD for the potential mandate for vaccination. I will try to find a decent link to the case. The lousy one I saw included this tidbit from the Army.

    –6. Exemptions
    There are two types of exemptions from immunization-medical and administrative. Granting medical exemptions is a medical function. Granting administrative exemptions is a nonmedical function.
    a. Medical exemptions. A medical exemption includes any medical contraindication relevant to a specific vaccine or other medication. Health care providers will determine a medical exemption based on the health of the vaccine candidate and the nature of the immunization under consideration. Medical exemptions may be temporary (up to 365 days) or permanent. Standard exemption codes appear in appendix C.

    (1) General examples of medical exemptions include the following—
    (a) Underlying health condition of the vaccine candidate (for example, based on immune competence, phar- macologic or radiation therapy, pregnancy and/or previous adverse response to immunization).
    (b) Evidence of immunity based on serologic tests, documented infection, or similar circumstances.
    (c) An individual’s clinical case is not readily definable. In such cases, consult appropriate medical specialists, including specialists in immunization health care.
    (2) Providers who are assessing medical exemptions may seek a second opinion from a provider experienced in vaccine adverse event management, such as specialists in immunization health care at a medical center, or seek additional consultation from MILVAX.
    (3) Annotate electronic ITS and paper-based service treatment records with exemption codes denoting evidence of immunity, severe adverse event after immunization (except for the Medical Readiness Reporting System), other temporary or permanent reasons for medical exemption, and other appropriate categories.
    (4) Report cases warranting permanent medical exemptions due to a vaccine related adverse event to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) at the Web site at http://www.vaers.hhs.gov and as discussed in paragraph 2–10.
    (5) Revoke medical exemptions when they are no longer clinically warranted.
    b. Administrative exemptions. Standard exemption codes appear in appendix C.
    (1) Separation or retirement. Within 180 days before separation or retirement, Service personnel may be exempt
    from deployment (mobility) immunizations, if one of the following conditions are met:
    (a) They are not currently assigned, deployed, or scheduled to perform duties in a geographical area where an
    immunization is indicated.
    (b) The commander has not directed immunization because of overriding mission requirements. Personnel who meet
    separation or retirement requirements and desire an immunization exemption must identify themselves to their com- mander. The member must have approved retirement or separation orders. Active duty personnel continuing duty in the reserve component are not exempted on this basis.

    C
    Medical and Administrative Exemption Codes
    This appendix gives details about medical and administrative exemption codes, as well as information on duration.
    C–1. Medical exemption codes
    Medical exemption codes appear in table C–1.
    Table C–1
    Medical exemption codes
    Code Meaning
    MI
    Medical, immune
    Evidence of immunity (for example, by serologic antibody test ); docu- mented previous infection (for example, chickenpox infection); natural in- fection presumed (for example, measles, if born before 1957)

    Duration Indefinite

    https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/r40_562.pdf

    The quotes are from pages 12 and 34.

    It seems the military agrees with quite a few people here. Or at least they used to.

    BuDuh (da93e9)

  35. Whataburgers would be the go-to over there…

    https://abc7chicago.com/mcdonalds-vaccine-locations-chicago-near-me/10962890/

    urbanleftbehind (ef1779)

  36. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/19/2021 @ 5:11 pm

    This is not, as I understand it, the argument being made. No one says they are explicitly denied the vaccine and no one says they can’t afford something given away for free. If you read the article you get a better explanation than I’m willing to give you.

    It’s simple statistics that people of color and/or poor make up a portion of the people not vaccinated. You’re just punishing them and it doesn’t matter why they didn’t get vaccinated.

    frosty (f27e97)

  37. Move over Lindsey:

    Three U.S. senators on Thursday verbalized they tested positive for COVID-19 despite being plenarily vaccinated against the virus that causes it. Sens. Roger Wicker (R-Miss.), 70, Angus King (I-Maine), 77, and John Hickenlooper (D-Colo.), 69, are the latest prominent U.S. officials to contract breakthrough infections of the virus.

    Say it ain’t so, eh Joe?!
    _____

    Breaking : The Bum at One

    President Plagiarist to address the nation at 1 PM EDT Friday on his Afghanistan disaster before running off to Wilmington to go back on vacation.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  38. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 8/19/2021 @ 5:47 pm

    The only reason people were saying that those without the coof shot should be denied healthcare out of spite was because they think they’ll get to see red-voting white people drop like flies. They don’t actually believe that black or Chicano people have refused to get vaccinated, because they and all their white liberal bourgeoisie wine friends don’t even think that’s an issue.

    Bingo. This is also why the deathbed vaccination change of heart stories usually include something to tell you it’s a red voter in the story.

    frosty (f27e97)

  39. This policy seems unfair to the un-vaxxed folks who previously caught the virus and thereby have been “vaccinated” naturally.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 8/19/2021 @ 5:18 pm

    Good point. I don’t know why they don’t accept an antibody test as a good degree of immunization.

    dustin (8d5210) — 8/19/2021 @ 5:45 pm

    My understanding is that the antibodies don’t last if you’ve had Covid. I remember reading that Rita Wilson, who had Covid way at the beginning of the pandemic when her hub Tom Hanks did, but earlier this year when the vaccines came out, she was tested and had no antibodies and thus had to get vaccinated.

    Dana (174549)

  40. fair point, Dana,

    perhaps an antibody test in place of a vaccine (similar to what Rita Wilson needed) would be enough to check the box.

    I don’t understand this vaccine enough to understand why it would be longer lasting than the real deal.

    dustin (b69787)

  41. COVID-19 survivors may possess wide-ranging resistance to the disease
    Woodruff Health Sciences Center | July 22, 2021

    Recovered COVID-19 patients retain broad and effective longer-term immunity to the disease, suggests a recent Emory University study, which is the most comprehensive of its kind so far. The findings have implications for expanding understanding about human immune memory as well as future vaccine development for coronaviruses.

    The longitudinal study, published recently on Cell Reports Medicine, looked at 254 patients with mostly mild to moderate symptoms of SARS-CoV-2 infection over a period for more than eight months (250 days) and found that their immune response to the virus remained durable and strong.

    Emory Vaccine Center director Rafi Ahmed, PhD, and a lead author on the paper, says the findings are reassuring, especially given early reports during the pandemic that protective neutralizing antibodies did not last in COVID-19 patients.

    “The study serves as a framework to define and predict long-lived immunity to SARS-CoV-2 after natural infection. We also saw indications in this phase that natural immunity could continue to persist,” Ahmed says. The research team will continue to evaluate this cohort over the next few years.

    Researchers found that not only did the immune response increase with disease severity, but also with each decade of age regardless of disease severity, suggesting that there are additional unknown factors influencing age-related differences in COVID-19 responses.

    In following the patients for months, researchers got a more nuanced view of how the immune system responds to COVID-19 infection. The picture that emerges indicates that the body’s defense shield not only produces an array of neutralizing antibodies but activates certain T and B cells to establish immune memory, offering more sustained defenses against reinfection.

    “We saw that antibody responses, especially IgG antibodies, were not only durable in the vast majority of patients but decayed at a slower rate than previously estimated, which suggests that patients are generating longer-lived plasma cells that can neutralize the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein.”

    Ahmed says investigators were surprised to see that convalescent participants also displayed increased immunity against common human coronaviruses as well as SARS-CoV-1, a close relative of the current coronavirus. The study suggests that patients who survived COVID-19 are likely to also possess protective immunity even against some SARS-CoV-2 variants.

    “Vaccines that target other parts of the virus rather than just the spike protein may be more helpful in containing infection as SARS-CoV-2 variants overtake the prevailing strains,” says Ahmed. “This could pave the way for us to design vaccines that address multiple coronaviruses.”

    Researchers say the study more comprehensively identifies the adaptive immune components leading to recovery, and that it will serve as a benchmark for immune memory induced by SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. “We can build on these results to define the progression to long-lived immunity against the new coronavirus, which can guide rational responses when future outbreaks occur,” says Ahmed.

    The study, funded by multiple institutions including the National Institutes of Health, is a collaboration between Emory University and the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle, Washington.

    https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/covid_survivors_resistance/index.html

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  42. I wouldn’t risk my life on an antibody test. The lab could get the blood samples mixed up.

    norcal (a6130b)

  43. I meant to do some cutting and highlighting before I hit the submit button. Sorry about the long post.

    Of note is that this is the “most comprehensive study of its kind” and it “looked at 254 patients with mostly mild to moderate symptoms of SARS-CoV-2 infection over a period for more than eight months (250 days) and found that their immune response to the virus remained durable and strong.“

    Natural immunity is “durable and strong” beyond eight months while the vaccine requires a booster by the time you reach eight months of “full immunity.”

    If you survived Covid and were blessed with this protection, norcal and Kevin would have you sued out of existence.

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  44. @43 It should go without saying that natural immunity is akin to vaccination, if one is certain about having natural immunity. I just wouldn’t bet my life on an antibody test.

    norcal (a6130b)

  45. @39 The absence of antibodies from recovered patients doesn’t mean they’re defenseless. There are other aspects of the immune system that wouldn’t show up in antibodies testing. Such as long term memory T and B cells.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  46. I will not join the vaccine/mandate debate–the arguments have been made to the point of being tiresome.

    I will say, however, that my wife works at Parkland Hospital and the reported personnel shortage is very real. All employee time off has been suspended and administrative and support staff have been pressed into service to help with non-critical tasks (such as taking medical histories and getting initial vital signs) that in ordinary times fall to licensed nurses. Still the hospital is very short-handed and its staff–especially its nurses–are exhausted. I am hearing similar reports from friends who work at Dallas’s other major hospitals. I strongly urge every American to take whatever special precautions they can to avoid a trip to the hospital for any reason at the moment.

    Barry Jacobs (c3284a)

  47. The Rita Wilson story is interesting. At the beginning of December she boasted to Jimmy Kimmel that she still had antibodies. She did note that they had been diminishing.

    Two months later she told Ellen that her antibodies were all gone. Too bad she wasn’t part of the study I posted above. I think they would have dove deeper.

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  48. sunday SUNDAY! sunday…

    West Texas Crude vs. North Texas COVID!!!

    Can Dino Juice 🦖 defeat the dreaded Wuhan Bat Flu gone Texas-style?!?!

    See you at the Dallas County Fairgrounds Sunday August 22nd!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  49. Forbes – Americans want a vaccine mandate for domestic flights

    https://twitter.com/forbes/status/1428541314069635072?s=21

    The comments suggest otherwise

    Obudman (cef237)

  50. good glad to here it. Taxpayers are paying bills for covid patients.

    asset (913dcc)

  51. North Texas doctor’s group retreats on policy saying vaccination status to be part of care decisions

    “After this story was posted, Dr. Mark Casanova gave interviews to local media and revised his story. He described the memo to the task force as a “homework assignment.” In a reversal, he told NBC-5 that vaccinations should not be among the factors hospitals should consider when making critical care triage decisions.“

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2021/08/19/if-north-texas-runs-out-of-icu-hospital-beds-doctors-can-consider-a-patients-vaccination-status/

    Sanity restored (for now).

    All it takes is enough people to stand up to them.

    Obudman (cef237)

  52. Obudman, Please get vaccinated and do what you can to encourage others to do likewise. Every pc of data says it will help save lives and end this pandemic more quickly.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  53. My understanding is that the antibodies don’t last if you’ve had Covid.

    It would be nice to know for sure, Dana. There are signs that naturally created antibodies are effective, but I personally know a gym-rat guy who caught it twice and second go-round kicked his butt.
    The thing is, the vaccine-created antibodies are not seeming to last either, because of the variants, and it seems to me that the Biden admin is discounting the previously infected in their campaign to get the nation vaxxed. Personally, I think that a person who already caught it should get a vaccine as well, but I’m not going to condemn that person for saying “no”.
    For those who never caught Covid and refuse the shot, fie on them.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  54. “Obudman, Please get vaccinated and do what you can to encourage others to do likewise.”

    I was vaccinated in May. I made the decision to do so after reading as much as I could about it.

    I do not recommend either getting nor NOT getting the vaccine because I am seeing so much conflicting information on the subject, especially about unvaccinated people who have already had COVID.

    I am against COVID passports and forcing people to get the vaccine. I’m also against forcing people, especially children, to wear masks.

    Obudman (cef237)

  55. [Lawrence Rodriguez] requested a coronavirus vaccine shortly before being put on a ventilator, Jones said, but it was also too late for him.

    Of course.

    Butwas it too late for the antibodies or convalescent fluid?

    The vaccine is not a cure! It’s a preventative, and doesn’t work too well in preventing infection in the nasal passages. (infections confined there are mostly self-limiting(

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  56. #26 “red-voting white people” I wasn’t aware that there was a significant Communist vote in Texas, especially among whites.

    (I have never accepted the color coding imposed on us by the media. If the Republican Party had chosen a color in 2000, it wouldn’t have been red.

    Most parties outside the United States choose their own colors. In Britain, for example, the Conservatives chose blue, Labour red, the Liberal Democrats yellow, and so on. When election results are announced for a constituency, the candidates usually stand together on a small stage, with appropriately colored rosettes.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  57. #54 Obudman – Much of the vaccine disinformation originates at Russian web sites.

    For example.

    (A quick search found more recent articles, but they appeared to be behind paywalls. If you want to explore yourself, this search string will probably work: “Russian vaccine disinformation”.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  58. Good point. I don’t know why they don’t accept an antibody test as a good degree of immunization.

    Can you show me data on whether natural antibodies to a previous strain provide resistance to Delta?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  59. There are signs that naturally created antibodies are effective, but I personally know a gym-rat guy who caught it twice and second go-round kicked his butt.

    There are three types of vaccines:

    mRNA (Pfizer, Moderna): which attempt to instruct the immune system how to create antibodies to a Covid protein marker.

    Adenovirus vector (Astra-Zeneca, J&J): Which attempt to get the immune system to create antibodies to a Covid protein marker, by carrying the protein in on the back of a harmless virus.

    Killed/weakened virus (China, Russia): Which attempt to get the immune system to create antibodies to a Covid virus, by delivering an example virus.

    The latter vaccines are the least effective, none of them have been approved in a first-world country. They also mimic natural immunity most closely.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  60. Abstract

    The SARS-CoV-2 B.1.617 lineage was identified in October 2020 in India1-5. Since then, it has become dominant in some regions of India and in the UK, and has spread to many other countries6. The lineage includes three main subtypes (B1.617.1, B.1.617.2 and B.1.617.3), which contain diverse mutations in the N-terminal domain (NTD) and the receptor-binding domain (RBD) of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein that may increase the immune evasion potential of these variants. B.1.617.2-also termed the Delta variant-is believed to spread faster than other variants. Here we isolated an infectious strain of the Delta variant from an individual with COVID-19 who had returned to France from India. We examined the sensitivity of this strain to monoclonal antibodies and to antibodies present in sera from individuals who had recovered from COVID-19 (hereafter referred to as convalescent individuals) or who had received a COVID-19 vaccine, and then compared this strain with other strains of SARS-CoV-2. The Delta variant was resistant to neutralization by some anti-NTD and anti-RBD monoclonal antibodies, including bamlanivimab, and these antibodies showed impaired binding to the spike protein. Sera collected from convalescent individuals up to 12 months after the onset of symptoms were fourfold less potent against the Delta variant relative to the Alpha variant (B.1.1.7). Sera from individuals who had received one dose of the Pfizer or the AstraZeneca vaccine had a barely discernible inhibitory effect on the Delta variant. Administration of two doses of the vaccine generated a neutralizing response in 95% of individuals, with titres three- to fivefold lower against the Delta variant than against the Alpha variant. Thus, the spread of the Delta variant is associated with an escape from antibodies that target non-RBD and RBD epitopes of the spike protein.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34237773/

    If I am reading this link from the NIH correctly, the 12 month old resistance through natural immunity is present although not as potent against the Delta variant. The single dose crowd has zero effectiveness and the multiple dose crowd is practically identical to the naturally immune.

    BuDuh (166589)

  61. That 8 month time-out on the vaccine seems like it could be a problem.

    BuDuh (166589)

  62. #60 Kevin – If understand this Wikipedia article correctly, a fourth kind of vaccine is now being tested in India.

    NVX-CoV2373 has been described as both a protein subunit vaccine[19][20][21] and a virus-like particle vaccine,[22][23] though the producers call it a “recombinant nanoparticle vaccine”.[24]

    The vaccine is produced by creating an engineered baculovirus containing a gene for a modified SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. The spike protein was modified by incorporating two proline amino acids in order to stabilize the pre-fusion form of the protein; this same 2P modification is being used in several other COVID-19 vaccines.[25] The baculovirus then infects a culture of Sf9 moth cells, which create the spike protein and display it on their cell membranes. The spike proteins are then harvested and assembled onto a synthetic lipid nanoparticle about 50 nanometers across, each displaying up to 14 spike proteins.[19][20][24]

    The formulation includes a saponin-based adjuvant.

    Apparently, those moth-derived cells are now a standard tool, something new to me.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  63. FDA set to grant full approval to Pfizer vaccine without public discussion of data

    “Last year the FDA said it was “committed to use an advisory committee composed of independent experts to ensure deliberations about authorisation or licensure are transparent for the public.”1 But in a statement, the FDA told The BMJ that it did not believe a meeting was necessary ahead of the expected granting of full approval.

    The vaccine has already been rolled out to millions of Americans through an emergency use authorisation. Companies typically apply for full approval after a longer period has elapsed so that more data are available for review.

    But with the US government indicating this week that it plans to start making booster shots widely available next month, experts said the decision not to meet to discuss the data was politically driven.“

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2086

    Obudman (cef237)

  64. Putting aside that this was a story about a thing that wasn’t happening; are vaccinated people needing to be triaged for ICU beds at all? I thought the vaccine meant you didn’t have severe symptoms?

    frosty (f27e97)

  65. Natural immunity is “durable and strong” beyond eight months while the vaccine requires a booster by the time you reach eight months of “full immunity.”

    Not according to this study.

    Rip Murdock (431d14)


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