Kevin McCarthy Refuses to Congratulate Biden on His Electoral College Win, or, Why the Republican Party is Toxic and Dangerous
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell alerted House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy Tuesday morning that he would congratulate President-elect Joe Biden for winning the Electoral College vote.
But, but, but: McCarthy is refusing to do the same, and a group of 26 incoming GOP House members sent House Speaker Nancy Pelosi a letter asking her to investigate alleged voter fraud.
Why it matters: While the Senate majority leader is trying to return a sense of equilibrium to his chamber, McCarthy — who’s already plotting his run for House speaker in 2022 — is refusing to do anything that may upset President Trump.
This is of a piece with Ted Cruz:
.@TedCruz on campaign tele-town hall: "It is very, very uphill right now. Clearly if something significant doesn’t change, then Biden and Kamala Harris are on a path to being the next president and vice president. I hope something significant changes."
— Patrick Svitek (@PatrickSvitek) December 15, 2020
Oh, Biden is “on a path” to being the next president? A path?? What, just because he already won the Electoral College vote?
What does this fascist “hope” will happen to undo the vote of the people?
You know, the only reason we aren’t worried about Congress simply throwing out the vote of the American people is because the Democrats hold the House. Yes, plenty of GOP senators have come out against a Congressional coup on January 6, but frankly I would not trust them to be saying the same things if the GOP had a firm majority in the House. This party has become so much about grabbing power, no matter how illegitimately, that I would not put anything past them.
I cannot support a party that wants to throw out an election. None of these people should ever hold elective office again.
They count on voters having short attention spans.
DRJ (aede82) — 12/16/2020 @ 8:40 amI cannot support a party that wants to run my life in detail. Impasse.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 8:42 amMcCarthy wants to avoid the predictable wrath of MAGA world:
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/16/2020 @ 8:59 am“…A plague o’ both your houses!!!”
Neither Democrats nor Republicans deserves our vote/support.
Hence I’d argue that we’d stick with just the parties’ policies and go from there. We’re going to get a reminder how much we disliked the Obama administration, and it’s the loud radicals in the Democratic party who’ll pull the Biden administration even leftward.
whembly (c30c83) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:09 amI understand the sentiment. But even if I were to think full blown socialism/communism (set aside how people use this interchangeably, I’m broadly referring to “run my life in detail” here), there’s at least two important points to consider in tandem with that concern.
One, it hasn’t actually started yet. You’re worried that the party will “pull the Biden administration” that way, but they already had the opportunity to nominate Bernie and he was rejected in favor of the more moderate Biden. If the Democrats are really in the thrall of AOC and her ideas, why didn’t Bernie win?
Relatedly, we see that Trump and his cronies are actually trying to overturn an election with no factual justifications for doing it. When Republicans cry out, “But socialism!” as a reason to vote against Democrats, the Democrats cry out, “But fascism!” as the counter. I think that when the Republican party literally tries to steal an election, I have to concede that the Republicans are moving a lot closer to true fascism than the Democrats are moving towards true socialism. And I think that’s even more true where we see voters did not give Democrats full control of the Senate.
Two, even if I thought America was headed that way, isn’t that an acceptable outcome if that’s what the voters actually wanted? I can choose to live elsewhere if I disagree with the choices my fellow citizens are making. This sounds a bit like the benevolent dictatorships. Yes, Trump is doing incredibly dangerous things, but it’s okay because it’s for your own good. That, to me, is far worse.
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:41 amToxic? Dangerous? Welcome to 1964.
Glorious.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:43 amIf your response to losing a free and fair election is to stage a coup, I don’t care what your policy positions are.
Or your opponents’.
Dave (1bb933) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:49 amIt seems to me that overturning an election in which one has just voted is not too different from running your life in detail.
Victor (a225f9) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:50 amYou know, the only reason we aren’t worried about Congress simply throwing out the vote of the American people is because the Democrats hold the House.
And the only reason we weren’t too worried about Congress overturning 2016 was because the GOP held the Senate for all four years.
Voting used to be the sum total of elections. Now it’s a two stage process, voting then lawfare, and guess where and when that precedent started and which partisans were just fine with it.
beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:55 amBased on their actions the GOP has a policy goal of rejecting the results of a free and fair election and installing the losing candidate in direct contradiction of constitutional process and intent. Republican’s who speak out about this, or fail to support it strongly enough, are being accused of not being True republicans. I can’t really see how you’d put this in the same conversation as what the marginal tax rate should be, how much we should assist people in getting access to health care or how onerous environmental regulations should be.
If you think people you detest on the far left aren’t looking at this and wondering if they have to give up power when they control both houses of congress you’re dreaming. There’s exactly as much evidence here as there was Stacy Abram’s lost due to voter suppression; none. She just gave up more easily then Trump.
Speaking of those loud radicals; They’re obnoxious and the Dem’s ignored their preference in the primary and picked Biden. The left wing (Warren) also sided with Biden by timing when she dropped out of the race. The Bernie morons are still butt hurt about it.
The GOP is actively destroying our country with this nonsense. I can’t see how any of the legitimate policy differences matter in light of that.
Time123 (441f53) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:58 am@7
A “coup” is a weee bit hyperbolic and frankly, every close Presidential elections have these same sort of acrimonious debates.
So… yeah, policy matters.
whembly (c30c83) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:58 amTed Cruz:
Rush Limbaugh today discussed a scenario, which doesn’t work even making several unlikely favorable assumptions, and at the end of his scenario he has no idea what actually happens anyway, but he’s got:
The presidency vacant at noon January 20, the Supreme Court refusing to rule, Donald Trump tweeting that he is rightfully elected president (he didn’t say on what grounds but you could supply a claim that a majority of the agreed upon Electoral votes is all that s needed and Ted Cruz has somehow pulled Biden below 232 by objecting to all of Biden’s electoral votes and demanding a separate 2 hour debate on each and every objection) Congress not pronouncing anyone the president-elect because they’re not finished debating the objections, and Democrats saying the president is either Biden or (acting president) Pelosi and Republicans saying (many happily) that it is (acting president) Mike Pence because they’ve selected a vice president.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:59 amAgain, you use things that happened in your head to approve of corrupt things happening in front of your eyes. Even if I stipulate your conspiracy theory it still leaves you approving of thwarting the will of a free and fair election because someone else did it first. It’s a scummy and amoral position.
Time123 (441f53) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:00 amSuppose Trump’s efforts had succeeded, which was, after all, the goal. Why wouldn’t that be a coup? Obviously, there is usually violence associated but I think illegitimately/illegally remaining in power qualifies as a coup.
What term would you use?
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:02 amWhat would you call it? This isn’t rhetoric. The GOP is sending false electors from key states. They senate majority leader is apparently concerned that the GOP will try to overturn the election and had to ask his members not to do that. I agree that coup isn’t the right word. What would you call it?
Time123 (441f53) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:02 amRight now the Dem’s seem to view this as obnoxious but ultimately doomed to fail so they’re being relatively quiet. I doubt that would continue if stealing the presidency looked likely to succeed.
Time123 (441f53) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:04 am@11
Because I believe all these sturm & drang being played out in the courts and legislatures are nothing more than political temper tantrum.
Once the transition is complete, all of this would be old news, just as it was in 2016, 2000, etc…
Stacy Abram is still complaining about that election Time123. Of course, its not getting near enough attention as it isn’t as high profile as the Whitehouse.
And these loud mouths are on record to pull the Biden administration leftward. (as there’s likely be an intracine war between the young progressives vs the old moderate guard. Not unlike the GOP’s tea party in 2010)
I just don’t see it as “destroying” the country.
We’re much stronger than that and there will be a point where it’ll die down. Hopefully by Jan 20th, as we’ll need all factions with the GOP party to mitigate the worst of what the Biden administration is looking to do.
whembly (c30c83) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:06 am@14
I don’t give these efforts any merits. Keep in mind that Trump and his supporters are trying to change it by legal means. (ie, taking it to court and hashing it out within the legal process at the state legislatures).
By law, Trump’s term ends on 1/20, whether Trump and his supporters wishing otherwise.
whembly (c30c83) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:09 amAgain, you use things that happened in your head to approve of corrupt things happening in front of your eyes. Even if I stipulate your conspiracy theory it still leaves you approving of thwarting the will of a free and fair election because someone else did it first. It’s a scummy and amoral position.
Again, you must misstate my position in order to counter it. You always do this, Time123.
I don’t like the “voting then lawfare” nonsense. I didn’t like it in 2016, and I don’t like in 2020. I don’t change my position on it based on who is the target. I have said previously here that Trump should concede. What you might conjure up in your head is not proof I approve of anything.
beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:10 am@15
Officially?
A temper tantrum.
whembly (c30c83) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:11 amApologism for a disgraceful attack on our republic. Less than a week after a fraudulent and baseless attempt by a solid majority of one party to overthrow the constitution, we’re already being gaslighted and assured it was no big deal.
This is a perfect example of why Trump and his cultists must never be trusted with power again.
If Trump and the other enemies of democracy had succeeded, there would have been plenty of violence.
And rightfully so.
Dave (1bb933) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:13 amDo you perceive it as a political temper tantrum simply because it was not likely to succeed?
It’s like a dog chasing a car. What happens when the dog catches the car? What if the Supreme Court had given Texas what it asked for? Do you think they’d say, “Ah, we were just kidding.”
I think you’re also too dismissive of the effects these efforts are having in the minds of voters. I have firsthand experience with family members who ardently believe that the election was stolen. They absolutely would be totally fine if the Supreme Court had thrown out the election.
It ceases to become a temper tantrum when the observers come to think that the screaming child has a really good point and wish the parents would cave in.
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:16 amI was referring to the mechanisms used to achieve the coup, not the response to the coup.
JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:17 amUse of the word “coup” invited mockery the past four years. Oh the irony.
beer ‘n pretzels (042d67) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:29 am@22
Yes. Along the same vein as Bush v. Gore, Stacey Abram’s behaviors and the general “non my POTUS” post 2016 election.
Hypothetically, no.
But, SCOTUS was right if for the simple fact that we’re a republic and each states determines their own laws.
I may be too dismissive, but I don’t see how Trump can affect a different outcome.
If Democrats thought that Trump would pervail, they wouldn’t be *this* reserved.
whembly (c30c83) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:30 amMaybe I’ve misunderstood the many times you say “whatabout” and point out a similar thing your political enemies have done. But that’s 99% of your commentary. Maybe if you had something else to say it wouldn’t lead to the impression that you’re trying to use conspiracy theories to justify bad acts by people you like.
Time123 (653992) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:30 am“It is very, very uphill right now. Clearly if something significant doesn’t change, then Biden and Kamala Harris are on a path to being the next president and vice president. I hope something significant changes.”
Roger (782680) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:30 amTed is still singing this tune?!? Good grief. I’m ashamed to say I voted for him in the Illinois primary back in 2016 (though I didn’t vote for him so much as against Trump, who by that point had given ample evidence of how unfit he was to govern).
@24
At best a “bloodless coup” may be a better descriptor… but even then, that’s a stretch IMO.
Unless, folks think that the military would be involved? Or the red state National Guard? Is that it?
whembly (c30c83) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:33 am‘Toxic and dangerous’ lol.
Those weren’t Republicans rioting, looting and torching.
harkin (6a972a) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:33 am_
OK, but calling a coup non-violent when it will clearly precipitate civil war if successful seems like misuse of language.
The purported secession of the slave states was technically carried through without violence, which only arose when the legitimate authorities refused to acquiesce.
Dave (1bb933) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:35 amI think it moved on from there when members of the senate started endorsing the conspiracy theory. I think it stopped being that completely when the alternate electors thing started. If it had stayed with Rush and other loudmouths I’d agree with you.
Time123 (f5cf77) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:35 amAre you unaware of the Proud Boys?
Time123 (653992) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:36 amThe general who Trump appointed National Security Advisor, and recently pardoning, openly called for that, yes.
Dave (1bb933) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:38 am*pardoned
Dave (1bb933) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:39 amThe people who break the law, with fraudulent elections, registration in multiple states, baring and blocking observers, and vote switching software are not champions of democracy, but rather toxic and dangerous. The people who apply to the court, or to the various legislative bodies for relief from illegal ballots are not toxic and dangerous, but rather, the champions of democracy.
DonM (b9c9fa) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:40 am14. JohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:02 am.
That is called a “bloodless coup.’
But there are too many moving parts, and authority is so divided, that it can;t work unless more than two thirds of the people in random positions want it to. The constitution, and truth, will determine.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:41 amYou know, the only reason we aren’t worried about Congress simply throwing out the vote of the American people is because the Democrats hold the House.
Actually the reason we aren’t worried is that it would be suicidal, as a party, if not a nation.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:43 amCongress may have a statute that says they can rewrite the election, but that does not mean they have to power to do so. The Constitution ways that it’s the electoral college that matters, and that has spoken unequivocally. Were they to toss out those results, Biden would file a lawsuit, the SC would rule in his favor and that would be that. Barring an actual coup.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:46 am“I’ve misunderstood the many times you say “whatabout””
“Whataboutism” is the foundation of all serious moral philosophy. People who whine about it are admitting they’re wrong.
“I cannot support a party that wants to throw out an election.”
In other words, “BELEIVE ALL ELECTORAL RESULTS!” “ALL PROCESSES ARE SACRED!”
Maybe you should have thought of that before providing no relevant or timely legal relief for confirmed widespread election fraud.
“I don’t like the “voting then lawfare” nonsense”
The Democrats were smart, they chose the “lawfare then ‘voting'” option.
Personally, I think that when Pence counts the electoral votes, he should add to this ELECTION-PROCESS -RESPECTING by pausing his count, adding in new mail-in electoral votes, pulling out a new suitcase of discovered electoral votes from under the table, declaring a Trump victory and saying ‘it’s certified, you don’t have standing to challenge’ if anyone complains.
Ay-biden (1b9a7e) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:47 am@35: We’ll be hearing this for years.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:49 amIt’s tragic that something as awful as the Democrats are only the second worst party, and they aren’t even in shouting distance of first.
lurker (d8c5bc) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:50 amThere are any number of perspectives we could take. Mine is that Trump has a bellyache and his intestinal bacteria are worried about being flushed down the toilet, but I’m still glad that Biden included a recently retired combat general in his Cabinet picks.
As for Mr. Senator Rafael Edward “Ted” Cruz (R-Batista), he’s what bidets are useful for. He’s not worth the toilet paper to wipe him off with.
nk (1d9030) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:52 amJohnnyAgreeable (c49787) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:16 am
But that’s not the case, so temper tantrum is a valid point of view. Trump has no hidden plan to stage a coup.
As for Rush, he’s describing his scenario as a long shot, and he’s tying to give hope to, or comfort, the die hards.
The problem with what’s going on now is if people begin strategically placing the wrong people in the wrong positions. It’s a long way to Hungary but you don’t want to start on that road. AND THERE IS DANGER IN BOTH PARTIES. You can’t have real cheating in the future ignored either.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:53 amKinda looks that way. I think some R’s are so worried about Dem agendas that they’re spinning a fantasy for themselves in which the voters could not conceivably have chosen a Dem president, though they actually know deep down that the voters did exactly that, and so they’re trying to save the electorate from itself — while yelling about guarding liberty and the Constitution.
What they should be doing is figuring out how to persuade more voters to agree with their own policy preferences, or pick a better candidate to represent them. Or this —
— which is easier done in a federal system that allows states and localities considerable latitude to design their own policies. Conservatives tend to have a better understanding of that principle, though hitching their wagon to Donald Trump is not a great way to promote it.
Get out, run fast
Don’t look, there’s no way back
Pack up and put it in the past
Yeah, get out, let go
Get back to where you know
Take back your crown
That’s what leaving’s all about
(This one has something for the gentlemen.)
Radegunda (c05eee) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:54 amnk (1d9030) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:52 am
He was Beau Biden’s commanding officer in Iraq.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/529893-five-things-to-know-about-lloyd-austin-bidens-pentagon-pick
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:57 amJust think about how these guys quickly freak out about Antifa, a bunch of idiotic kids, to whatabout away the conduct of the leader of the free world, a billionare who colluded with Russia while Russia is clearly using him as part of a complex attack on America.
It’s amazing. But Radegunda is right. Trump support is 0% about explaining what Trump has done, why he’s doing it, why we should want him to do it. it’s 100% about having a panic attack about Bill Ayers’s fanboys.
Dustin (4237e0) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:59 am“Confirmed” by whom? And what legal relief should our esteemed host have provided? ASFAIK, he is not secretly controlling all the courts that have dismissed virtually all the Trumper claims.
Radegunda (c05eee) — 12/16/2020 @ 11:04 amAs much as I detest what some Republicans are doing, I will not use it to justify a vote for people whose policies AND morality I despise.
Can you honestly tell me that you think Senate Minority Leader Schumer is more honest, moral and/or ethical than House Minority Leader McCarthy? If not, then using McCarthy’s current behavior to justify a vote for people who wish to do you harm is not “ethical”, it’s just an emotional reaction.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 11:06 amI can’t argue with that.
Radegunda (c05eee) — 12/16/2020 @ 11:07 amAy-biden (1b9a7e) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:47 am
Every Electoral vote must come from a previously acknowledged legitimate entity. That wouldn’t work any more than making a deliberate error in arithmetic.
The ballot fraud allegations that you are alluding to didn’t happen and wasn’t alleged in court, only, sometimes, its possibility, without the inevitable proof that would exist if it were really true.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 11:09 amDonM @35-
The people who break the law, with fraudulent elections, registration in multiple states, baring (sic) and blocking observers, and vote switching software are not champions of democracy, but rather toxic and dangerous.
The evidence for any of that is what?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/16/2020 @ 11:17 amRepublican contender for Va. governor says Trump should declare martial law
……
“Not my President and never will be,” (State Sen. Amanda F. Chase) wrote, referring to Biden. “The American people aren’t fools. We know you cheated to win and we’ll never accept these results. Fair elections we can accept but cheating to win; never. It’s not over yet. So thankful President Trump has a backbone and refuses to concede. President Trump should declare martial law as recommended by General Flynn.”
…….
In an interview Tuesday, Chase said she was holding out hope that Trump somehow would be declared the winner when the electoral college ballots are formally counted during a joint session of Congress on Jan. 6 — an all-but-impossible outcome, especially as Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) on Tuesday publicly acknowledged Biden’s victory for the first time since the election. Barring that extremely unlikely turn of events, Chase thinks martial law is in order.
Under martial law, she said, troops would “go and seize these [voting] machines and voting equipment to find the voter fraud. There needs to be a national audit.”
……
Chase’s candidacy poses an awkward challenge for the Republican Party, which hasn’t won a statewide election since 2009. Trump, who lost the state last month by 10 points, has repelled Virginia’s suburban swing voters, but he remains highly popular with the party’s base.
……
Virginia Republicans recently cancelled their gubernatorial primary in favor of a convention.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/16/2020 @ 11:30 amThe coup goes on.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/trumps-coup-attempt-isnt-over
Several Republicans have called for a challenge to certain states’ electors on Jan. 6, which the Electoral College actually does allow. Such a challenge would result in a two-hour debate in which both parties make their arguments. And it has happened before in other electoral vote certifications, as the article explains, but those challenges were mostly made by Democrats.
They failed, as any challenge made this year surely will, but that’s not the point. The Republicans want to muck up the certification, in order to keep their base riled up and to appease Trump–stop the steal! They also want to hinder the transfer of power to the incoming Biden administration.
A lot depends on the Georgia runoffs. If the Republicans maintain their slim majority, they can make things very difficult for Biden, in terms of nominations (especially judicial) and legislation. If, however, the Democrats are able to pick up the two seats, resulting in a split Senate with VP Harris as the tie breaker, they may have more leeway. Either way, the Republicans are going to be obstructionist. They just can’t get over the fact that Trump lost to Biden.
The next two years are going to be tumultuous. The pandemic rages even an vaccines roll out. The economy will be in turmoil until at least next summer. High numbers of infections, hospitalizations and deaths; rising unemployment and business and school closings; a real estate market in ruin; it’s ugly out there, and it’s going to get worse before it gets better.
It’s going to get a lot worse if Republicans continue down this path of obstruction. Trump isn’t going anywhere–he’s raised over $200 million for his election defense PAC in just a few months. The thing is that he can’t spend that money for anything other than political purposes, such as rallies or contributions to obsequious candidates, propaganda purposes, to promote false claims of voter fraud and election theft. He cannot use that money to pay off personal loans or business debts, or lawyer fees. That’s what has him worried.
Once he’s out of office, without the protection of the presidency, he can be prosecuted. There’s no pardon for civil and state criminal charges. The New York AG is pursuing him on civil charges, and the Manhattan DA is pursuing him on criminal charges. Those would be tax, bank and wire fraud, along with illegal campaign contributions.
So Trump has a lot to worry about. He owes some $460 million in personally guaranteed loans to foreign creditors, due within a couple of months. His hotels and resorts are losing millions. So all he has left is conspiracy theories, false claims of voter fraud and election theft.
It would be shameful were it not shameless. The Republicans made a Faustian decision. They bought into the fraud.
None of this will end well. The future of America is at stake here. We can choose to follow Donald Trump down the rabbit hole of history, or we can choose to remain above ground and fight for what’s right.
Biden has a serious row to hoe. But these Republicans are digging ditches for themselves.
Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1) — 12/16/2020 @ 11:49 amI don’t know if any of the rest of you watch home improvement shows, but I think it’s relevant to what people are doing with Trump at this point. A lot of time there’s a home owner going on and on about their fancy beadboard walls, tile, paint color, and granite countertops while the contractor is talking to them about structural issues. In this case, I feel like the people who understand that what Trump is doing are the contractor going “Sir/Ma’am, there are termites that are going to cause the house to fall down in 5 years. You have to pay to get rid of them.” and the people who don’t see this as a major problem are the home owners talking over them about how there just isn’t room in the budget because they have granite counter-tops instead of laminate and they will just be so disappointed if they can’t have their countertops. And I’m sitting at home going, “GET RID OF THE TERMITES! YOU CAN GET NEW GD COUNTERTOPS LATER.”
Trump is attacking the very foundational structure of the country. Where the new bathroom goes is of secondary importance if your house is falling down.
Nic (896fdf) — 12/16/2020 @ 12:20 pmYou want to straighten out politics in America ? Expand the party system to more parties and you will cut down on the cut throat, lying through their teeth, you have no where else to go agenda between the two parties. Next do away completely the uncontrolled Administrative state.
Knickerbocker Slobberknocker (27d313) — 12/16/2020 @ 12:42 pm30. Dave (1bb933) — 12/16/2020 @ 10:35 am
When Ft. Sumter was resupplied rather than surrendered.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:01 pmIt is interesting to see actual conservatives fleeing the party.
Pretty soon, anyone still self-identifying a Republican can be safely assumed to be either an antidemocratic, un-American facist or completely deluded.
john (cd2753) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:01 pmWe’ll see.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:02 pmMods, I have a comment in moderation. I’m not sure where it ran aground.
Nic (896fdf) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:08 pmI have 3 comments in moderation (my 47-49), the last two asking why the first one is in moderation. Your commenting system was kaput for a while.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:26 pmRetrumplican base does not want republicans to concede defeat and will primary those who do. The only ones who asked them to concede are media and biden supporters who are not going to vote for them anyway.
asset (84af03) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:29 pm@11. The ‘coup’ has been the sucessful neutering o/t modern ideological conservative movement. Clearly the tail no longer wags the dog; they’ve left on their own when suddenly discovering their POV no longer is that of the majority of the party; or they’ve been ‘Buckley’d’ out into into irrelevancy, akin to the Birchers fate back in the day. They may quill all the op-eds of contempt they want for years- perhaps decades– but they no longer represent the mind set of the bulk of the 74-plus million who voted GOP. Rather than decreasing, a larger percentage voted for Trump this cycle than the last- beyond his core base; there’s clearly sea change w/party mindset emerging. Those Republicans still in office likely want to remain in office — and they will either adapt to the change– just as Rockefeller Republicans did in 1964– or go indy into the wilderness and master insignificance.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:30 pm53 on numerous occasion I have pointed out and the 2016/2020 demonstrate It is your coup of running the republican party has been run out of power. The 15% ( modern ideological conservative movement, never trumpers, free trade corporatists donor class and milton freidman and economic libertarians et.al) can no longer control the 85% of republicans who are populists. Get over it! You have been thrown out of the republican party and those of you who try to remain have to do trump’s bidding.
asset (84af03) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:41 pmRepeating my comment in moderation:
As much as I detest what some Republicans are doing, I will not use it to justify a vote for people whose policies AND morality I despise.
Can you honestly tell me that you think Senate Minority Leader Schumer is more honest, moral and/or ethical than House Minority Leader McCarthy? If not, then using McCarthy’s current behavior to justify a vote for people who wish to do you harm is not “ethical”, it’s just an emotional reaction.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:45 pmYou might note that McCarthy’s district voted solidly for Trump. He’s probably representing them the way they want him to represent them. That these people don’t trust the government’s count is pretty much the way they thought going in. From folks I’ve talked to, they do not see it as “overturning the election” but as “defending the real vote.”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:54 pmSo the new GOP really is conceived as a dictatorship, governed by the will of one person. That’s useful to know.
Radegunda (b6cc34) — 12/16/2020 @ 2:41 pmNorth Carolina GOP lawmaker urges Trump to suspend civil liberties to keep power: ‘Invoke the Insurrection Act’
……
(North Carolina state Sen. Bob) Steinburg ( R ), who recently won reelection to his state Senate seat in North Carolina, wrote an inflammatory Facebook post on Tuesday quoting an interview with retired Air Force lieutenant general Thomas McInerney earlier this month.
“President Trump must declare a national emergency,” the 72-year-old state senator wrote in the post, which has since been deleted. “Trump should also invoke the Insurrection Act.”
…….
Steinburg also suggested in the Facebook post that the president suspend habeas corpus, which allows people to challenge unlawful imprisonment, “as Lincoln and FDR have both done in times of war.”…..
The state senator claimed that the Supreme Court justices had declined to hear the challenge last week because “somebody’s got something” on the highest judicial officers in the nation. He claimed that unnamed FBI and CIA agents who live in his district had told him so. He also alleged that federal law enforcement officials have refused to intervene in a “coup d’etat.”
……..
Steinburg on Tuesday said he would support Trump if he suspended civil rights protections to detain his political enemies and change the election result.
“If that’s what needs to be done, if there are people who have been identified as folks who are suspected of high crimes and misdemeanors, who are threatening the very security and foundation of our nation,” Steinburg told WRAL, “for whatever period of time it takes to round them up, then yes.”
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/16/2020 @ 2:45 pm>>>>>>>>>>
“I’m not nuts,” he told the outlet. “I’m not a conspiracy theory person.” Really?
@56
As a right leaner, who support Trump & the GOP really hinges on the idea to keep Democrats out of power… I understand this sentiment.
I have real concerns about how this election was conducted, but I have a hard time believing that it really impacted the elections. That isn’t to say that I don’t want more scrutiny/better accountability of our election process. It just means that if you look at it pragmatically, Biden won fair and square.
However, my question to you and the rest of the board is this: How do you reach those who believe the elections is stolen? We cannot dismiss their concerns out of hand, as all that’s going to do is feed into the stolen elections hysteria.
whembly (c30c83) — 12/16/2020 @ 2:46 pm@59, so long as the people they respect and the news sources they trust (OAN, Epoch Times, Unsourced memes on parlor) tell them it was stolen they can’t be reached.
Time123 (9f42ee) — 12/16/2020 @ 3:10 pmThe very most foundational, fundamental primary philosophical idea that the US was founded on is that people should be able to vote and be represented in government. If you break that, reject that idea, reject the voice of the people, then you have smashed the foundation of the country and in comparison everything else, Everything Else is trivial. Every single other right we cherish is held up by the right to vote and have that vote be counted.
Nic (896fdf) — 12/16/2020 @ 3:11 pm@60 All the concerns either aren’t based in reality or have been addressed. Most of them appear to be based on the idea that someone they didn’t like won the election, so now they want the election overturned. That isn’t democracy. It isn’t valuing the vote. It’s disregarding that vote and valuing power over everything.
Nic (896fdf) — 12/16/2020 @ 3:15 pm@60
So… give up? Ostracize them from the political sphere?
Otherize them? Nuke the Republican party and hope that the remnant would form a GOP-like party that you prefer?
whembly (c30c83) — 12/16/2020 @ 3:30 pmSo… give up? Ostracize them from the political sphere?
Otherize them? Nuke the Republican party and hope that the remnant would form a GOP-like party that you prefer?
Not “them”. They don’t matter. They’re mindless cattle, who hoard, and feed and sleep, and wouldn’t know the Constitution from a constitutional.
Their lead steers. The Trumps, the Cruzes, the McCarthys, the Johnsons, the Paxtons, the Abbotts, the Brookses, the ones who live off the institutions they’re now betraying. Make them non-persons, their names a dirty word.
nk (1d9030) — 12/16/2020 @ 4:24 pmWhat concerns could be addressed? They don’t care about facts or evidence. They operate on faith that Trump won. It’d be like aheists trying to figure out how to convert the Pope.
johnnyagreeable (c49787) — 12/16/2020 @ 4:35 pmHow do you reach those who believe the elections is stolen? We cannot dismiss their concerns out of hand, as all that’s going to do is feed into the stolen elections hysteria.
“It shouldn’t have been this close. If it wasn’t close they couldn’t steal it. There is no ‘fair.'”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 4:36 pmNot “them”. They don’t matter. They’re mindless cattle, who hoard, and feed and sleep, and wouldn’t know the Constitution from a constitutional.
I doubt that 5% of the voters know jack about the Constitution (but many think they do). If you rest your hopes on that, you are going to be unhappy forever.
After killing Caesar, Brutus spoke to the mob about tradition and honor. Marc Antony reached to their emotions and envy and they chased Brutus out of town.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 4:40 pm56. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 1:45 pm
No!!!
Because schumer lies for no reason.
I was at a town hall forum in 1989 where then Congressman Charles Schumer was speaking and he claimed to have predicted the savings Loan scandal years before, and to be the only Congressman who was pro Israel.
And there’s more.
And he sank down to rock bottom when he questioned witnesses at the Waco hearings in 1995 and got them on record all agreeing on this one point: That the Davidians started the fire.
And I am sure he knew better. It’s just that Clinton hired these fake Texas arson experts (you can read about fake Texas arson expertise in other places) and wouldn’t let anybody else look at the scene before bulldozing it – it was that blatant.
And few people realized how the fire really started: CS tear gas is inflammable but not at the highest concentrations so as it dissipated inside fires broke out at different places (which was abig point in the government’s argument) Not to mention of course the place was full of burning kerosene lanterns since the electricity had long since been cut off. Not one survivor said they had started the fire.
If not, then using McCarthy’s current behavior to justify a vote for people who wish to do you harm is not “ethical”, it’s just an emotional reaction.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 4:59 pmYes.
Dave (1bb933) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:02 pmSchumer is not Reid (who I think is comparable to McCarthy in vileness).
Dave (1bb933) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:02 pm61. Time123 (9f42ee) — 12/16/2020 @ 3:10 pm
It’s more than that – and the Epoch Times of early November didn’t seem to be so strong, except for that poem from the founder of Falun Gong that was on the front page.
It’s coming at them from all over, on many talk radio shows.
You can;t argue that well against it because you don’t know enough.
Eventually, it will become apparent to them (when people whose reputations they respect stop asserting it) that this is all a hoax. If that’s the right word. Because there’s not enough to it for it to be a hoax.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:07 pmDon’t stand in front of Schumer while he’s speaking if you want to stay dry.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:07 pmI may never vote for a Republican again if they don’t stop with the spam texting through.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:08 pm71. Dave (1bb933) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:02 pm
He doesn’t semi-sneakily accuse people of things.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:09 pmAs defined, a coup is a “a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force.” If the Senate somehow overturns the Electors and finagles Trump back into the White House, thus thwarting a constitutional majority that elected Biden and upending the rules as Election Day, then it’s a coup d’etat by definition.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:10 pmFor all the scare-mongering from Trump & Co. about the US turning into Venezuela if Biden is elected, Trump is trying to take us a step or three toward Venezuela.
73. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:07 pm
Former New York City mayor Ed Koch said something like that to me – about Schumer and a camera – when I called him up on his radio show and spoke about some incredible thing Schumer had said that was the front page headline of the Brooklyn Paper.
Sammy Finkelman (ab7073) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:11 pmI would add a substantial qualifier, or another pillar of the founding: the idea that every citizen has natural rights that cannot be taken away, even if a majority of the electorate votes to abolish them or to treat a minority prejudicially.
Maybe the most charitable view of the die-hard Trumpers is that they really believe the majority of voters have elected a president who will trample on their natural or constitutional rights, and that our freedoms can be saved only if a few legislatures will accept their “fraud” arguments and take things in hand.
In principle, it isn’t irrational to worry that majority rule can be illiberal, but I think the current hysteria has more to do with a messianic faith in Trump as the only one who can save America from doom.
Radegunda (b6cc34) — 12/16/2020 @ 5:46 pmAn essential component of democracy is that when the election is over the people accept the result. Otherwise, what is the point of having had it in the first place?
I remember, after the fall of the Soviet Union, a couple of places, where Trump gets his wives and “models”, held their first elections since maybe their ancestors sat around a campfire and debated whether they should follow the mastodon herd or the auroch herd. The day after, the losers would be out in the streets rioting. They can be forgiven for not having yet grasped the concept, it was entirely novel to them.
Among the many things Trump is not is an American. Melania should take him back home to Slovenia where he really belongs.
nk (1d9030) — 12/16/2020 @ 6:27 pmIf we should have tested prisoners (by downward order of severity of sentence) first and nursing home residents second – great idea Kevin M, we can test the effectiveness of a good old fashioned arse beating on breaking cultists out of their fanaticism.
urbanleftbehind (a89df8) — 12/16/2020 @ 6:36 pm@78 I think that’s almost equally important as the idea of the vote, but I think if you don’t enforce the idea that voting is the essential right, then there’s no way to enforce natural rights. The ideal of natural rights rests on the ideal of voting.
Nic (896fdf) — 12/16/2020 @ 7:24 pmMy earlier comment @47 is awaiting moderation, although I know not why. Perhaps it’s because I linked an article from The New Yorker on the on-going coup attempt and continuing Trump denial. It is what it is.
Howbeit, the unfounded accusations of voter fraud and election theft have become the Republican mantra.
https://reason.com/2020/12/16/trumps-election-conspiracy-theory-has-to-be-accepted-on-faith/
QAnon and conspiracy theories now rule the Republican party. It would be sad if if wasn’t so ridiculous.
Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1) — 12/16/2020 @ 7:53 pmEveryone’s “comment #47” is in moderation. The site had a bad moment.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 8:50 pmThe very most foundational, fundamental primary philosophical idea that the US was founded on is that people should be able to vote and be represented in government.
It wasn’t until the hated Andy Jackson that the vote reached men without property. The founders never wanted that.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/16/2020 @ 8:55 pmI don’t really disagree. The idea of natural rights may coexist with a narrow franchise, but then obviously there aren’t equal rights. And obviously, rights are best protected when citizens have a voice in who gets to wield power, and other issues. But it isn’t irrational to say that a majority vote in itself doesn’t protect our rights and liberties. My point was that some die-hard Trumpers are basically waving around that idea as part of their campaign to remedy what they judge to be a bad choice by the voters, and the claim that it was a fraudulent election is mostly cooked up as a way of justifying an effort to correct the voters’ mistake, so to speak.
Radegunda (b6cc34) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:14 pmAll I can say is that I’m embarrassed that I once supported Ted Cruz for President in 2016. Maybe I was over excited about what I thought was a solid non-Trumpy conservative, that I might have overlooked any warning signs about that guy. Boy was I wrong. Everything that I thought he wasn’t was made manifest over the past 4 years. His participation in this electoral larceny attempt by the Trump campaign, is practically unforgiveable. I’ll remember this when he runs for POTUS in 2024. I’ll remind myself to never make that mistake again.
HCI (92ea66) — 12/16/2020 @ 9:16 pm@93. Yeah, I made the same mistake. But Cruz is only one of dozens who have lost my respect as they went down rabbit holes of wild-eyed conspiracy theories or, worse, turned seditious. Dan Crenshaw is also in that category.
Roger (782680) — 12/17/2020 @ 5:18 amThey want to overturn our election. Without proof of any significant fraud.
Some are suggesting that because some Democrats are socialists, then they are just as dangerous. Ridiculous. If voters want a more socialist economy, then they may get it. If they change their mind, then they can vote against it too.
Declare Donald Trump the President, even though he lost? Donald Trump?
You people are nuts.
noel (9fead1) — 12/17/2020 @ 7:36 amI wouldn’t trust Trump to lead us in a song no less to lead as our president
Bowling Alone (27d313) — 12/17/2020 @ 7:50 amPutin dodges question of whether he will offer Trump asylum in Russia.
:—)
Dave (1bb933) — 12/17/2020 @ 8:42 amFind friendly airports…no repeat of when Trump had you land long at Newark after musing about topping the ticket post-“GrabEm” back in October 2016:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/17/pence-trump-election-loss-447326
urbanleftbehind (c948d7) — 12/17/2020 @ 9:12 amKevin Williamsom pretty much nails my mindset:
whembly (c30c83) — 12/17/2020 @ 10:05 amhttps://www.nationalreview.com/2020/12/procedure-is-getting-us-through-for-now/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=river&utm_content=featured-content-trending&utm_term=first
Putin not only has the best prostitutes, he has the best assassins who would’ve finished the job. That is actually his excuse when he denied responsibility for his assassination attempt (or attempts?) on Navalny.
Paul Montagu (77c694) — 12/17/2020 @ 10:25 amIt does seem unlikely that some schmuck with little, if any, security would survive if Putin really wanted him dead. They could have easily blown up or shot down the plane he was on, for instance.
It’s possible that they hoped to leave him a vegetable as an example for others, I suppose.
For comparison, witness the fate of Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, who was a dead man the moment Netanyahu ordered it.
Dave (1bb933) — 12/17/2020 @ 10:43 amThis website really has all of the info I wanted about this subject and didn’t know who to ask.
https://helmetash16.doodlekit.com/blog/entry/12801777/what-will-congress-do-now-that-trump-has-been-impeached-a-second-time (86267e) — 1/14/2021 @ 11:02 am