Patterico's Pontifications

9/30/2020

What Did We Learn Last Night?

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:28 am



What did we learn from the immature display we witnessed last night? Maybe a few things.

First, foremost, and most obviously, we saw the effects of the presidency on a guy who was a narcissist to begin with. And it’s not pretty. Over three years of people deferring to him, with at least the last year being filled entirely with yes men and yes women, has made this even more insufferable than ever. Yes, we have all seen his bullying in public in his press conferences and elsewhere, but this is a situation where nominally at least someone else (Chris Wallace) was supposed to be in control . . . and he couldn’t deal with it. Trump was humorless, rude, and insufferable. (Yes, I already used that word, but Mark Twain says that you must always use the right word even if you used it recently.) He’s totally unlikable and only people who openly admire bullies (as he does on the world stage) — fans of “apex predators” — could possibly bring themselves to defend his behavior.

In a related vein:

This comes across in all the books (I just finished Woodward’s, by the way) and you can see it in the press conferences, but watching this guy with the attention span of a gnat try to stay on topic is a joke. He doesn’t listen, he can’t talk about the same thing for more than 10 seconds, and did I mention that he is insufferable?

Enough about Trump. What did we learn about Biden?

We learned that he is able to string sentences together without an earpiece or drugs or a TelePrompTer. We learned that his avoidance of Chris Wallace didn’t mean that he was going to crumble into little pieces upon being asked some tough questions.

We learned that he didn’t turn in a great performance. Sometimes rude (“this clown” or “shut up”), he led with his chin at times, rose to Trump’s bait far too often, and rarely took the easy route of openly rising above this nonsense. He did do it a couple of times, turning to speak to the camera, and those were by far his strongest moments. If he could have brought a little humor to the matter, laughing off Trump’s silly attacks, it would have been far more effective.

Ultimately, while Biden was unimpressive, the main thing we learned was something we already knew: that he is not Donald Trump. So far, that’s been good enough, and it was good enough last night.

I’ll leave you with some tweets. First:

To end the post, there are these three tweets from the redoubtable Coleman Hughes. They are tweets to which I subscribe entirely:

Yes, it is.

425 Responses to “What Did We Learn Last Night?”

  1. Good summary.

    May I ask what you thought of the Woodward book? Is it worth the investment?

    Here’s what non-obsessive news junkies think. Pretty negative for Trump.

    In all, from 17 voters in swing states, 15 used negative words and just two used positive words or phrases to describe the president (that is, if you consider “an ass but a confident ass” to be a compliment).

    The focus group’s opinion of the debate tracks with a CBS poll, which found that 83 percent of debate watchers believed the tone of the evening to be “negative” while 17 percent thought it was “positive.” Which raises the question: What debate were those 17 percent watching?

    Now Biden:

    Positive: “Surprised” “better than expected” “more professional” “more a people person” “confident” “restraint and compassion” “leader” “attentative” “humanity” “integrity”

    Negative: “Politician” x2, “predictable” x2, “Nice guy but lacking vision” “Somewhat evasive”

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  2. I really think the striking takeaway is how unlikable Trump has become — yes, he always was unlikable, but he’s far more so now — humorless, and totally insufferable. No redeeming qualities whatsoever.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  3. May I ask what you thought of the Woodward book? Is it worth the investment?

    If you read and liked the last one (I did) you’ll like this one. Honestly, my main takeaway was disgust with China over their handling of the coronavirus. I knew it was bad but seeing the details was infuriating.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  4. That actually sounds interesting…thank you

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  5. I agree that Biden’s best moments were when he was facing the camera, talking to the American people, and he should’ve said, “I’m talking to America, Donald, not to you” when interrupted.
    I thought Biden stumbled a few too many times, but it would’ve been a challenge for anybody facing Trump’s thuggy onslaught.
    The China part is infuriating because Trump knew that Xi & Co. were stonewalling and misinforming the world, yet Trump praised him at least 14 times during the important early months. Trump can’t plead ignorance or that he was misinformed. His people knew what was going on there, and he was briefed.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  6. @FrankLuntz
    We’re almost done with the debate, and consensus is that Trump dominated… And turned off undecided voters in the process. #Debates2020
    10:16 PM · Sep 29, 2020·TweetDeck

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  7. We learned that violent Republican mobs are a much bigger threat than we even knew.

    beer ‘n pretzels (bdb238)

  8. I think Biden said what he needed to say to get the swing voters he needs to win. He slipped up when he told the public he backed the GND, said it would be revenue neutral, then tried to backtrack. Too late.

    Wallace let Biden off the hook on several occasions, but we can see Biden will most likely back most Democrat positions, including abortion on demand, court-packing, new statehoods to bolster Democrat numbers in Congress.

    He says he’s a centrist but he most likely won’t govern as one. But at least he’s not Trump.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  9. Nor did Biden pledge to use any of his powers to stop left-wing violence that is destroying our cities.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  10. What Did We Learn Last Night?

    1. Wallace is a poor moderator.

    And 2.:

    I’m not Reagan didn’t work for Mondale;
    I’m not Nixon didn’t work for McGovern;
    I’m not Trump didn’t work for Hillary;
    And I’m not Trump was plagiarized from Hillary by Biden.

    3. We learned who the biggest and most deceptive liar truly is last night: the snake with 47 years in the swamp who spit the same old venom: that his government program ‘will pay for itself.’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  11. Trump’s metastrategy is always to drag everyone else down to his level.

    The beauty of that strategy is it’s always guaranteed to work, at least to some degree.

    Pericles himself would have had a hard time looking good standing in the middle of that blizzard of bullsh*t, and Biden isn’t Pericles.

    Dave (1bb933)

  12. We learned that violent Republican mobs are a much bigger threat than we even knew.

    beer ‘n pretzels (bdb238) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:59 am

    Or at least that Trump isn’t capable of a lay-up of a question on white supremacy. It’s strange.

    Is he so committed to that world view that he can’t criticize it?
    Does he just identify with them?
    Is he psychologically unable to criticize a fan?
    Is he afraid that he doesn’t have the political capital to safely do that?
    does he think it will make him feel weak?

    Seemed like he missed an easy one. But they love him for it.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  13. What Did We Learn Last Night?

    1. Wallace is a poor moderator.

    And 2.:

    I’m not Reagan didn’t work for Mondale;
    I’m not Nixon didn’t work for McGovern;
    I’m not Trump didn’t work for Hillary;
    And I’m not Trump was plagiarized from Hillary by Biden.

    3. We learned who the biggest and most deceptive liar truly is last night: the snake with 47 years in the swamp who spit the same old venom: that his government program ‘will pay for itself.’

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/30/2020 @ 9:05 am

    we learned you were full of it with your comments that Biden couldn’t string to sentences together. You going to move on, or go right to conspiracy theories about mics and PEDs?

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  14. That Doc is a contemptible, disgusting troll of a human is not news, but shoving his nature down the throats of folks who don’t follow politics was probably instructive.

    What got me was that he explicitly addressed his Brownshirts and told them to ‘stand by’ on national television. He acknowledged and commanded a white nationalist terrorist gang on live TV.

    There is no ambiguity left.

    john (cd2753)

  15. My main takeaway was “these two obnoxious idiots are the best this country has to offer?”

    Everyone knows Trump is a bully. Biden could have tried to rise above it and make him look petulant. Instead, he got pissed off and attacked Trump right back (“clown” “racist” “shut up”). No surprise though, Biden has a long history of getting pissed and attacking people who get under his skin. Biden clearly wanted to talk about Beau instead of Hunter and Chris Wallace let him off the hook. Talking about how he’s proud of Hunter beating drug addiction was good and Trump was stupid for making an issue of cocaine use. But there are still serious concerns about Burisma and other money Hunter has received for apparently doing nothing but being the son of the (former) Vice President. Chris Wallace never bothered to push him on that. And it’s frankly a disgrace that he allowed Biden to not answer the court packing question. Seriously, he didn’t just deflect like politicians usually do from a question they don’t want to answer. He literally said “I refuse to answer that question” and Chris Wallace just said ok, next question.

    Edoc118 (2faa81)

  16. It’s strange.

    It’s strange to a functioning adult, possessing some elementary notion of morality.

    But not strange at all for Trump.

    His judgment on anyone and anything begins and ends with the question: do they praise me?

    Dave (1bb933)

  17. What did we learn last night?

    Last night Trump reminded me why I didn’t vote for him in 2016.

    Last night Biden and the media reminded me why I will vote for Trump in 2020.

    I hope the Trump years will remind us in the future to be fully engaged and vetting our political candidates at the grassroot/primary phase of the process.

    whembly (c30c83)

  18. Biden is not the one who will be runnung the show its harris, even a blind man can see that. Unless you blind yourself.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  19. I disagree with you about Wallace. Some of my feelings about Wallace the “moderator” are not his fault.

    1. He is not a moderator. He has a TV news show and most of his work is one on one. They should stop using TV show hosts to “moderate.

    2. As to the above, it would be like letting NFL game day show hosts ref the game. Just because someone can interview Odell Beckham doesn’t make that person an NFL ref.

    3. Continuing the referee theme, a moderator should be more like a soccer referee. A soccer referee has to manage 22 players, coaches and his/her to assistants by his or her self and be strong enough and respected enough to manage the game and should not be much noticed, but still constantly present.
    If you watch a good referee, the game has continual flow because the players know that calls are even handed and when the whistle is blown the players just restart play and move on.

    All that said, both Trump and Biden are troublesome “players/hacks”. Both are world class at self aggrandizments and tell whoppers about their past “accomplishments”. Both are not people I’d want for a neighbor. If Biden was my neighbor and his current puppet masters wanted my land, he’d steal it using the power he’s gained over 47 years of public service/feeding at the trough/self dealing.
    Trump would use his money. Not to buy my land at a fair price, but to grease guys like Biden (by paying off Biden’s brother, son etc) to seize it in the name of community redevelopment.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  20. @13. Actually, you may be full of your own delusions.

    If you listened to them rather than watched them– which I did through a painful second viewing– Biden spoke in a fragmented fashion. So did Trump. Pie fighting w/sound bites.

    “My son. My son. My son.” Yeah, Time123, not two, but three ‘sentences together’… like a LP skipping on Biden’s “record player.” Perhaps he has a Victrola and an Edison wax-cylinder model, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  21. ‘Clown’ and ‘why don’t you shut up’ didn’t work for Biden any more than it did for Little Marco or Lyin’ Ted when they tried to ‘go Trump.’

    That’s his act, Joe. Plagiarizing another fellas routine may be SOP for Uncle Miltie and Uncle Joe but it sounds dishonest and unnatural from him.

    So much for the ‘be honest’ strategy. Another lie. That died a quick death, eh JoeyBee?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  22. So few seem to understand whats at stake, whether America lives or dies. You give points to the undertaker out of pity.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  23. I dream of the day when “None of the Above” wins every election.

    Simon Jester (41c481)

  24. Trump’s Brown Shorts (sic) (which are brown for the same reason that Admiral Nelson’s tunic was red), are like Trump. All hat, no cattle. Their best course will be to stand back and stand by in their survival shelters and talk tough on 8chan or whatever it’s called these days.

    Because “Biden’s militants” have never waited for the government’s permission to keep and bear, and to use, arms, and when they gun down a Bugout Boy, they’re going to take his wallet and keys and his car and go to his house and take the rest of his arsenal, and all of his beer and pork rinds, and whatever else they can carry.

    nk (1d9030)

  25. Diet Coke or Geritol.

    Choose.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. Thats why they need to be crushed wray doesnt even acknowledge they exist.

    You dont have that luxury simon

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  27. Can someone help me out here? I saw the debate live, but I’m willing to admit that I might’ve misheard or misunderstood things.

    The media and some on this site are stating that Trump didn’t denounce White Supremacy or what not, here’s the transcript:

    WALLACE: “Are you willing tonight to comdemn white supremacits and the militia groups…”

    TRUMP: “Sure…

    WALLACE: “And to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of cities as we saw in kenosha, and as we’ve seen in Portland”

    TRUMP: “Sure, I’m prepared to do it, but I would say almost everything I see is from the left-wing not from the right-wing. I’m will to do anything, I want to see peace…”

    WALLACE: “Then do it, sir.”

    BIDEN: “Do it, say it.”

    TRUMP: “What do you want to call them? Give me a name.”

    WALLACE: “White supremacists and right-wing militias”

    BIDEN: “Proud Boys”

    TRUMP: “Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what, somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left”.

    At this point, Trump’s actually debating both Biden and Wallace here…

    But, the only quibble I can see is that “stand by” part in his last response. That’s an obvious gaffe on his part.

    What was wrong with this exchange? I mean, he’s… not… wrong.

    I get that you don’t like the messenger…

    whembly (c30c83)

  28. “Last night” in a nutshell:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMsaVWaPenM

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  29. 24 – IIRC in the 80s or 90s there was a guy who legally changed his name to None of the above and attempted to run for office (In Arkansas maybe) but a judge ruled it deceptive and refused to allow it.

    More recently in Canada:

    “The ballot to fill a legislative seat in Canada next month includes none of the above—and it’s a real person.

    Sheldon Bergson, 46, had his name legally changed to Above Znoneofthe and is now a candidate for the Ontario legislature, the CBC reports. The election is Feb. 11.

    The ballot lists candidates in alphabetical order by surname so his name will be the 10th of the 10 candidates as Znoneofthe Above, according to CBC.“

    https://www.foxnews.com/world/candidates-legal-name-change-puts-none-of-the-above-on-ballot-in-canada
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  30. I admire you for trying to reason with these people Whembly, but you are wasting your time here.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  31. More cops will die because biden fanned the flames again, god the hospital shoot out taught you no lessons.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  32. And I’m sure ‘None of the above’ would get many more votes for the same thing worded as:

    Nancy Pelosi’
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  33. Whembly,

    Trump recognized he should say something so he said sure. But couldn’t bring himself to do it. The exchange is below, in context. Trump didn’t condemn White Supremacists and right-wing militia. He did tell the proud boys to stand by because someone has to do something about Antifa. They love him for things like this.

    Biden condemns violent actions of the far left.
    Trump excuses and justifies the violent actions of the far right.

    The far left hates Trump and dislikes Biden.
    The far right Loves trump and hates Biden.

    Communication is a two way street, So here’s what the proud boys thought he was saying.

    Proud Boys organizer Joe Biggs also posted he was “standing by,” and said the president “basically said to go f— them up.”

    “President Trump told the proud boys to stand by because someone needs to deal with ANTIFA… well sir! we’re ready!!” Biggs wrote.

    Here are Trumps words in context

    Chris Wallace: (42:04)
    But what are you saying?

    President Donald J. Trump: (42:06)
    I’m willing to do anything. I want to see peace.

    Chris Wallace: (42:08)
    Well, do it, sir.

    Vice President Joe Biden: (42:09)
    Say it, do it say it.

    President Donald J. Trump: (42:10)
    What do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me a name, go ahead who do you want me to condemn.

    Chris Wallace: (42:14)
    White supremacist and right-wing militia.

    President Donald J. Trump: (42:18)
    Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem this is a left wing.

    Vice President Joe Biden: (42:28)
    He’s own FBI Director said unlike white supremacist, Antifa is an idea not an organization-

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  34. @31

    I admire you for trying to reason with these people Whembly, but you are wasting your time here.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4) — 9/30/2020 @ 9:53 am

    You can not vote for the man because you don’t like them…

    But, all the goal-post, gaslighting is something to behold.

    I mean, he literally said last night “Sure, I’m prepared to do it…”

    ..and its not like it’s the only time either:

    “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.” -President Trump, August 15, 2017

    whembly (c30c83)

  35. @23. Oh please… do get with the program: the ‘American Century’ was born on 12/7/41, peaked on 7/20/69 began its decline there after and died on 9/11/01.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  36. Yes what a dumpsterfire our so called security services are.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  37. @Time123: I watched it live. The “Sure” blurbs is him AGREEING with the premise of the question.

    whembly (c30c83)

  38. In the past, I’ve been upset with those attacks on Trump I thought were unfair. Given that there was such a target-rich environment already, I thought that false attacks helped no one.

    I don’t give a crap any longer. The man we saw last night is a clear and present danger every day he inhabits the White House. I just hope that Biden, and the loonies in his party from Kamala on down, have enough opposition that they can’t do a lot of damage while the GOP finds its way again.

    That SC confirmation is even more important now. And anyone who thinks that 5 justices will go to the wall, taking the court with them, to keep that man in the WH has a very low opinion of the Supreme Court.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  39. But, all the goal-post, gaslighting is something to behold.

    I mean, he literally said last night “Sure, I’m prepared to do it…”

    Then he didn’t. He allllmost did below…

    Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem this is a left wing.

    If he didn’t mean what it looks like he meant, what the proud boys thought he meant, he should correct it.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  40. Proud boys havent cost 2 billion (thats an extraodinarily low figure) thats how much susan rosenberg extorted.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  41. The media is tiptoeing around the elephant in the room–the complete failure of Chris Wallace to maintain control as the moderator.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  42. Thats the most ridiculous thing youve said harris will be in charge.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  43. I really think the striking takeaway is how unlikable Trump has become — yes, he always was unlikable, but he’s far more so now — humorless, and totally insufferable. No redeeming qualities whatsoever.

    From what I saw — I only lasted until 6:19 — you are too kind. We finally found the pony in all this dung. It’s dead and putrefying.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. @42-

    Hardly.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  45. If he didn’t mean what it looks like he meant, what the proud boys thought he meant, he should correct it.

    Well, Hitler eventually did take care of Rohm and the SA. But that’s not what you meant.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  46. The Proud Boys sure took Trump’s statement as a call to arms.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  47. @40 Time123… did you watch the exchange?

    The first “sure” was him agreeing with Wallace.

    whembly (c30c83)

  48. @40: You bolded a statement that no reasonable observer of what’s happened in Portland, Seattle, DC and elsewhere could take issue with.

    He also said in response to Biden, “If someone hits you over the head with a bat, that’s not an idea.”

    BTW, violent protests are still going on nightly in Portland. You just don’t hear so much about them because federal troops can’t be used as a scapegoat anymore. They were never the issue, despite attempts by you and the media to frame it that way.

    beer ‘n pretzels (0b07b1)

  49. “ Vice President Joe Biden: (42:28)
    He’s own FBI Director said unlike white supremacist, Antifa is an idea not an organization-”

    __ _

    That idea in the ether sure does manage to raise an awful lot of money. lol at ‘white supremacist’ being an ‘organization.
    _

    Meanwhile…..

    Kyle Olson
    @kyleolson4

    Joe Biden’s “Build Back Better” sign falls off the podium:

    https://twitter.com/kyleolson4/status/1311322714414682112?s=20
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  50. @48

    But that’s Trump entire MO, isn’t it? Agree with the premise, state a willingness to do the decent and honorable thing, and then utterly fail to actually do it.

    That’s what happened with his taxes. That’s what happened with his divestments. And now it’s what happened with condemning white supremacists. He doesn’t get credit for doing something that he merely acknowledges he should.

    (Not That) Bill O'Reilly (6bb12a)

  51. Further to the point.

    Trump's inability to speak clearly is one third a disregard for speaking clearly (he doesn't want to do anyone favors), a desire to be slippery (he wants to keep his options open), and a lack of verbal acuity. As such, it's a serious flaw in a President. https://t.co/yJL6krFVKY— Tim Carney (@TPCarney) September 30, 2020

    (Not That) Bill O'Reilly (6bb12a)

  52. Trump Lets Conservatives Down. Again.
    …….
    Donald Trump’s debate performance was utterly bereft of anything resembling a strategy. Classically, an embattled incumbent president facing headwinds in the polls does whatever he can do to transform the race from a reflection on his time in office into a referendum on his opponent. But that would compel Donald Trump to back out of the spotlight for even a few seconds and allow his opponent to make an exploitable mistake. This president cannot do that.

    Trump’s determination to steamroll the moderator, make a mockery of the rules to which he had agreed, and interrupt his opponent at every given turn repeatedly rescued Biden from the brink of a mistake. How is it, precisely, that Donald Trump “blew” the handling of the economy even before the onset of the pandemic’s second-order effects (for which polls suggest the public does not blame the president)? We don’t know, because Donald Trump wouldn’t let Biden finish a sentence. How was it that Biden was able to wiggle out of the trap his own running mate had set for him? The president rode to his rescue, pivoting toward an essential inquiry into whether Biden had actually attended Delaware State University.
    ……
    ……(t)he president could not bring himself to commit to the idea that the results of this election will be legitimate. He labors mightily to frame this contest as fundamentally fraudulent, and he is deliberately ambiguous about whether he would facilitate a peaceful transition of power should he lose. He wants Americans to be anxious about these threats, and they are intimidating to many. But they should not be. By getting in front of an event that hasn’t happened yet, the president is, in fact, discrediting the charges he will invariably levy if the election results don’t go his way. And by laying the cognitive groundwork for his own defeat at the polls, Donald Trump has bathed himself in the stink of failure.

    And that is what unenthusiastic conservative voters who watched this debate were left with: a lost cause. ……
    ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  53. Those finding ways to compare Trump to 1930s Germany while being oblivious to the prospect of Harris putting stuff in front of Biden to sign before he nods off and its parallel to Hitler and Hindenburg are lol.
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  54. They mean to overwhelm the electoral precibcts with unverifiable ballots in the chaos the transition integrity project will go into effect, social media will lend a hand. Suppressing any samizdat viewpoint.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  55. Actually, I view this as similar to Weimar in both respects. The street gangs are pretty much the same flavor — fascist thugs versus communist thugs. Just not as intense yet.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. Trump is going to lose Utah the way he is going. It’s not going to be close.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  57. The latter are targeting nay executing cops, and the local authorities like ted wheeler look the other way they have more important things to do.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  58. @57

    Trump is going to lose Utah the way he is going. It’s not going to be close.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/30/2020 @ 10:32 am

    Yeah, I very much doubt that.

    Unless they believe a 6-3 SCOTUS majority would be enough to reign in the worst of the Biden administration.

    whembly (c30c83)

  59. What FoxNews and CNN covered in the last half hour.
    CNN: Last night’s debate.
    FoxNews: (1) Comey’s testimony, (2) the Kentucky AG’s delay of the Breonna Taylor grand jury, (3) botched mail-in ballots in NY, (4) NY’s opening restaurants to 25% capacity. In other words, everything but the debate.
    Interesting.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  60. I don’t know what the worst of the Biden administration is. The GOP is effective at gridlock. Obama did a lot of things that I am still very unhappy about, and of course that’s the fuel behind Trump. Blows my mind that in this serious time, the democrats are led by this company man, not inspiring in any way. Tulsi would have been 100 times better.

    Trump is stupid. His debate performance showed he didn’t do his homework, had no cunning, no instinct, and just tried to be a bully to the moderator. This guy ain’t a Putin that’s for sure.

    Celeb culture is weird though. Paris Hilton, Kanye West, Donald Trump, they show that being bad can really help a brand on social media. Trump’s telling white pride fans to stand by will be in history books 100 years in the future. I am sure the left will play this card a little too hard, but it’s still awful.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  61. So what, comeys going to lie, they are going to fan the flames in louisville trump was right again, and wilhelm is killing off gotham

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  62. @40 Time123… did you watch the exchange?

    The first “sure” was him agreeing with Wallace.

    whembly (c30c83) — 9/30/2020 @ 10:11 am

    I did watch it. I thought it was a lay up. I assumed he was about to say. “Violent extremism is always condemned.” or something similar. But he didn’t. He got belligerent, and wanted to know specifically who to condemn. That’s fine. Both Wallance and Biden gave him a suggestion. Biden’s was hard to hear. He picked Biden’s.

    But instead of “I condemn violence by the Proud Boys. If they commit assault they need to be arrested.” he said

    Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem this is a left wing.

    And we know what they think he meant by that.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  63. Matt Viser
    @mviser
    ·
    JUST IN: Statement from the Commission on Presidential Debates: “Last night’s debate made clear that additional structure should be added to the format of the remaining debates to ensure a more orderly discussion of the issues.”
    __ _

    Ben Domenech
    @bdomenech

    Americans born after 9/11 are fighting in our wars and the Commission on Presidential Debates leadership includes John F. Kennedy’s appointee to the FCC.
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  64. BTW, violent protests are still going on nightly in Portland. You just don’t hear so much about them because federal troops can’t be used as a scapegoat anymore. They were never the issue, despite attempts by you and the media to frame it that way.

    beer ‘n pretzels (0b07b1) — 9/30/2020 @ 10:12 am

    I know. Portland has completely failed to maintain order. It’s disgusting. Trump tried his approach and it didn’t work either. There’s some evidence that the presence of federal troops made things worse.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  65. “fascist thugs versus communist thugs. Just not as intense yet.”
    __ _

    Also different this time in that the fascists and the commies are both on the same side and are doing 98% of the violence/destruction.

    As to similarities, like 1930s Germany, the govt. and the media are going out of their way to blame the other side.
    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  66. “Trump tried his approach and it didn’t work either.”
    _

    Comedy gold.

    Trump offered help and the mayor told him he was the problem while offering zero evidence.

    Social media in Portland is almost unanimous that Wheeler is a joke who has helped destroy civil order in Portland.

    Matt Couch
    @RealMattCouch
    ·
    Antifa and Black Lives Matter have literally been RIOTING for FOUR MONTHS in Portland, and the Oregon Governor and Idiotic Mayor of Portland Ted Wheeler are concerned about the Proud Boys who’s leader isn’t white, calling them a hate group carrying American Flags.

    _

    harkin (ea3da9)

  67. That commission could use the likes of Mills Lane, Ed Hochuli, Mike Carey, or this dude.

    urbanleftbehind (1b4b86)

  68. I would accept whembly’s reading of Trump’s “sure” as a fully fledged condemnation and the opposite of what Trump then said, had … he not then said that other stuff.

    Trump was asked to condemn white supremacists, and he ended up asking for their support, to stand by for some kind of help.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  69. violent Republican mobs

    Violent Trumpist mobs.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  70. Breaking: Man arrested in ambush of 2 Los Angeles County deputies

    Investigators have arrested and charged a man in connection with the shooting of two Los Angeles County sheriff’s deputies earlier this month as they sat in a squad car, authorities said Wednesday.

    Attempted murder charges were filed against Deonte Lee Murray, 36, District Attorney Jackie Lacey said in a press conference.

    Murray was arrested two weeks ago in connection with a separate carjacking and he was expected to be arraigned later Wednesday on charges in both cases.

    Sheriff’s Homicide Bureau Capt. Kent Wegener, who detailed the investigation, did not suggest a specific motive for the attack “other than the fact that he obviously hates policemen and he wants them dead.”
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  71. Unless they believe a 6-3 SCOTUS majority would be enough to reign in the worst of the Biden administration.

    It took a lot less for the courts to reign in the worst of the Trump administration.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  72. House in near-unanimous vote affirms peaceful transfer of power

    The House adopted a resolution on Tuesday to affirm the chamber’s support for a peaceful transfer of power after President Trump last week declined to commit to it if he loses reelection.

    Lawmakers adopted the measure in a bipartisan 397-5 vote, with all of the votes in opposition coming from Republicans.

    Tuesday’s vote followed one last week on a virtually identical measure in the Senate, which lawmakers in that chamber passed unanimously.
    …….
    The five Republicans who voted against the resolution were Reps. Matt Gaetz (Fla.), Louie Gohmert (Texas), Clay Higgins (La.), Steve King (Iowa) and Thomas Massie (Ky.).
    …….
    “Get rid of the ballots and you’ll have a very peaceful — there won’t be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation,” Trump said at a press conference.
    …….
    Sen. John Thune (S.D.), the second highest-ranking Senate Republican, told reporters last week that he believed Republicans would stand up to Trump if he refused to accept the election results.

    Why should they? Republicans haven’t stood up to Trump so far.
    /sarc

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  73. I turned it on and within two minutes turned it off. I told my wife that they both needed a timeout.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  74. @57. You couldn’t tell that by Mike Lee.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  75. Trump leads in Utah by 12 points, I doubt he will lose its 6 electoral votes.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  76. Why should they? Republicans haven’t stood up to Trump so far.
    /sarc

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/30/2020 @ 11:32 am

    The House should impeach Trump today for his statements refusing to honor the election if he loses. There’s a bit of interpretation needed to get there. ‘if it’s unfair’ etc. But not that much. Impeach him, hold the Senate vote for the day after the election. Let the GOP senators up for election make their promises.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  77. @78, I think they should impeach him the day it’s clear that he’s lost the popular election.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  78. Sorry, Just election. I mean the EC, not the popular vote.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  79. @61. And nothing on colleague Wallace’s dismal outing. Been in the media biz for decades; protecting their own s SOP. It was virtually axiomatic at CBS- whenever the heat was on, they’d circle the wagons and bring up Edward R. Murrow. They’d draw him like a gun.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  80. John Harwood
    @JohnJHarwood
    new Quinnipiac likely-voter poll of South Carolina:

    Trump 48%
    Biden 47%

    WINNING!!!!!!

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  81. The House should impeach Trump today for his statements refusing to honor the election if he loses

    Nah. But Putin should invade Poland at sunset.

    He’d get away with it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  82. @83. Postscript- Okay, maybe Poland is ‘a bridge too far’– let’s settle for Ukraine.

    Okay w/you, Comrade Vlad? 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  83. Man, Trump’s condemnation of the proud boys pushed them back so hard they updated their logo.

    https://twitter.com/Friel9th/status/1311378147401752579/photo/1

    Liz Bruenig thinks Biden hates her.

    https://twitter.com/ebruenig/status/1311113263627800581

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  84. @75. They’d have gotten one and been humiliated as well if Wallace had the balls of Daddy Mike and just stood up and barked, ‘enough of this sh!t’- and walked off camera for 5 minute.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  85. Sheriff from Portland quickly refutes Trump claim of endorsement

    The sheriff of Multnomah County, Ore., which includes Portland, quickly refuted President Trump’s claim of an endorsement during Tuesday night’s first general election presidential debate.

    “As the Multnomah County Sheriff I have never supported Donald Trump and will never support him,” Sheriff Mike Reese responded on Twitter Tuesday night.

    The sheriff added: “Donald Trump has made my job a hell of a lot harder since he started talking about Portland, but I never thought he’d try to turn my wife against me!”

    He should sue for slander and loss of consortium…

    Dave (1bb933)

  86. Trump was humorless, rude, and insufferable.

    Michael Goodwin of the New York Post thinks it was part of a plan – a bad plan…

    https://nypost.com/2020/09/30/a-hot-mess-of-a-debate-and-a-bad-plan-by-trump-goodwin

    Joe Biden was sharp and coherent enough, though he relied heavily on notes in front of him. He didn’t exactly raise the bar of decorum with his name-calling, alternately labeling President Trump a clown, a liar and a racist. Ho hum.

    Yet the bulk of the blame falls on Trump, who came with a clear plan and executed it flawlessly. Unfortunately, it was a very bad plan.

    From the get-go, the president was determined to rattle Biden by being a persistent interrupter, rarely letting the former vice president finish two consecutive sentences. On occasion, his interjections were smart, but mostly, they made him look boorish.

    But I think this was more in line with his nature.

    He wanted to rebut Biden and either couldn’t stand waiting to, was afraid he’d forget or was afraid the audience wouldn’t remember what Biden had said if he didn’t immediately contradict him.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  87. @88

    He seems like a Very Fine(tm) fellow.

    Dave (1bb933)

  88. John Podhoretz also had a comment that Trump hurt himself:

    https://nypost.com/2020/09/29/2020-presidential-debate-trump-missed-chance-to-let-biden-stumble-on-his-own

    It was painful and sordid and cringe-inducing, and that was almost entirely Trump’s doing.

    People on both sides are fond of saying that we’ve all gotten used to Trump. His supporters constantly dismiss attacks on his comportment as being the same old same old. Those who loathe him pull their hair out at the fact that the earth has not swallowed him up because he lies without consequence.

    But no one in these two camps matters a whit now. They will all drag themselves over glass to vote for or against him.

    The problem for Trump is that those people are the ones who will likely decide the election — the ones who don’t love him, who don’t even like him, but might vote for him anyway.

    [On the basis of the bottom line – that his appointees aren’t like him, and even those a little like him are in public relations only – that it’s basically a somewhat far to the right Republican administration – that Trump talks down to people on Twitter but his decisions are a little bit more seriously based – SF]

    And face it: If you didn’t love Trump when the evening started and weren’t already a fan of his WWE approach to politics, there had to be at least one moment, maybe two, when you listened to the leader of the Free World and thought, “What a jerk.”

    [Only if you were really surprised. And calling someone a jerk is crude. It’s just that he could have done things so much better, in many of the things where he was more or less right. -SF]

    There’s a very small number of people who haven’t made up their minds yet, and if the polls are even remotely accurate, Trump has to win a landslide among them to make up the gap with Biden.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  89. Off topic comment but timely. They caught the guy who ambushed the two cops in LA. Thug. He was arrested three days after the shooting for carjacking.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  90. He wanted to rebut Biden and either couldn’t stand waiting to, was afraid he’d forget or was afraid the audience wouldn’t remember what Biden had said if he didn’t immediately contradict him.

    He cannot bear to hear – or let others hear – criticism of his perfect, infallible self.

    Dave (1bb933)

  91. TV Ratings: First Presidential Debate Down Sharply in Early Numbers
    …….
    Fast national ratings for the broadcast networks show the debate gathering 28.82 million viewers across ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox — a decline of 36 percent from 2016. Four years ago, the big four networks tallied 45.3 million viewers in the preliminary ratings, rising to 49.33 million after time-zone adjustments for the live broadcast. Early figures from Spanish-language networks Telemundo and Univision show about 2.5 million people watching on those two outlets.

    Tuesday’s ratings will adjust upward by a decent amount in the final ratings, which will include time-zone adjustments and out-of-home viewing (the latter wasn’t part of Nielsen’s count in 2016). Cable news channels and other outlets will also add millions to the total, but it’s exceedingly unlikely that this debate will come close to the first face-off four years ago.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  92. We learned that, even when asked point blank, Biden wouldn’t answer the question as to whether he would go along with packing the Supreme Court.

    We learned that Donald Trump also wouldn;t answer some questions – he was asked if it was true that he paid only $750 in taxes for two years. (I consider his answers not to be a denial)

    Some people found out that Biden was going to make the issue about the Supreme Court, not Roe v Wade (give him some points for avoiding extreme dishonesty) but the lawsuit aimed at declaring Obamacare null and void (which only has the demerit of probably not being true.)

    Of course Trump would need to explain why he joined in that badly reasoned lawsuit. (Congress knew what it was getting when it zeroed out the individual mandate. There is no issue of severability.)

    We learned Biden could be a bit moderate and not extreme in some of his criticisms. When Trump said that he wanted to replace Obamacare with something good, Biden said he didn’t know how. Which is actually true!!

    We learned that both candidates might flatly deny something that might be true.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  93. Looks like the GOP senate team thinks trump did a stupid.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  94. Hoover and Roosevelt didn’t really co-operate much in the transition in 1933. There wasn’t any kind of official thing until fairly recently. I don;t know when it started.

    In the year 2000, no official process began until after the December 12.

    A better question would be would he co-operate (just in case) in a transition, even if he was still contesting things. Not whether he would attempt to resist, which is nonsense.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  95. A better question would be would he co-operate (just in case) in a transition, even if he was still contesting things. Not whether he would attempt to resist, which is nonsense.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 9/30/2020 @ 12:48 pm

    You’re right. The real issue is how Trump works with Biden if there are problems with the election. Of course he will not, in fact they will probably try to use the criminal process against eachother if they find a way, and Trump will spend the rest of his life complaining about anything Biden does, delighted at any failure, no matter what that means for the American people.

    Trump’s never won a majority of votes, which is never going to change. He’s a loser.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  96. Hoover and Roosevelt didn’t really co-operate much in the transition in 1933.

    In that case it was the *incoming* president who refused to work with the outgoing one, however.

    Dave (1bb933)

  97. Good news!

    My mom received her mail-in ballot today.

    She died in 2015 and the county registrar and state have both been notified numerous times.

    My Pop passed last year and I didn’t get one for him today so maybe they caught it. But I’m giving it a few days because both of them received mail-in ballots in June.

    Any state which does not require updating registered voter logs based on death certificates is incompetent.

    Imagine how many dead people will be voting in Nov…..
    _

    harkin (ab264c)

  98. Tom Elliott
    @tomselliott NBC’s @oneunderscore__: “White supremacist groups” like the Proud Boys — not Antifa — are the ones creating “organized violence“ and “domestic terror”
    __ _

    commonsense
    @commonsense258
    ·
    In what universe?
    __ _

    (((NameThisProfile-CivilDiscourse)))
    ·
    perhaps if they just asked the rioters and the crazy people who go after people in restaurants and in their homes which side they belong to…
    __ _

    C JohnsonHourglass
    @CJlegalBeagle
    ·
    It’s bad when the entirety of corporate news can be debunked by people wearing sweats at home using a search engine.
    __ _

    Phil The Seat
    @philllosoraptor

    No one is boarding up their windows because of white supremacists right now.
    __ _

    Mike Batley
    @mbatley1
    ·
    Because it is just an idea that has been tearing up Portland for over 150 days. And it was just an idea that showed up in Kenosha with vehicles and riot resources from Portland and Seattle and just an idea that had U-hauls full of signs and other riot material in other places

    _

    harkin (ab264c)

  99. harkin (ab264c) — 9/30/2020 @ 1:07 pm

    Any state which does not require updating registered voter logs based on death certificates is incompetent.

    Any state that does purges too easily gets hit by lawsuits.

    Imagine how many dead people will be voting in Nov…..

    About 10% to 15% of those who receive unrequested absentee ballots.

    Now possibly Trump might have his lawyers move to throw out all absentee ballots. (because they went 2/3 or so for Biden)

    Courts are not going to do that. But perhaps the hope might be to have a state not cast any Electoral votes. This is not a Senate or Governor’s race. You can’t do it over

    In New York people got mailed the wrong ballots:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/nyregion/absentee-ballots-nyc.html

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/nyregion/absentee-ballot-nyc-brooklyn.html

    Wrong ballots signed by voters will be invalid. Voters who unwittingly sign erroneous ballots will still be able to vote — via a second ballot, or in person, according to Sarah Steiner, an elections lawyer. She added that in-person votes cancel a voter’s absentee ballot.

    That’s in New York State.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  100. Trump’s never won a majority of votes, which is never going to change. He’s a loser.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 1:03 pm

    By that standard, the following are losers too?
    GWB first term
    Bill Clinton both term
    Tricky Dicky
    JFK

    Them losers too?

    whembly (c30c83)

  101. Fun facts:

    Number of times Republican President won the EC reaching < 50% of the total votes:
    7

    Number of times Democrat President won the EC reaching < 50% of the total votes:
    10

    whembly (c30c83)

  102. “I don’t know who the Proud Boys are, but whoever they are, they have to stand down and let law enforcement do their work.” – Pres. Trump 9/30

    For those asking for clarification.

    whembly (c30c83)

  103. For those asking for clarification.

    whembly (c30c83) — 9/30/2020 @ 1:33 pm

    Meanwhile, a BLM organizer is running down Trump supporters. It’s almost like the situation in Charlottesville, except without the media coverage and condemnation from Democrats.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  104. The sheriff added: “Donald Trump has made my job a hell of a lot harder since he started talking about Portland

    Wow. He can talk from 3,000 miles way and make his job harder.

    And here I thought it was the people on the spot who were rioting and burning down buildings.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  105. White House Blocked C.D.C. Order to Keep Cruise Ships Docked

    The C.D.C. director wanted a “no sail” order extended until February, a policy that would have upset the tourism industry in the crucial swing state of Florida

    Murderous. Who in their right mind could think this is the right time to reopen these floating Petri dishes?

    Dave (1bb933)


  106. Edward-Isaac Dovere
    @IsaacDovere
    ·
    it’s an impressive skill to summon the name of a specific white supremacist group, while on the topic of white supremacists, considering the president doesn’t know anything about that group
    __ _

    Stephen L. Miller
    @redsteeze
    ·
    Joe Biden was the one who summoned the name. (Transcript attached)

    _

    harkin (ab264c)

  107. Then again, maybe the county machine knows mom and pop are gone and they’ve been added to the list of available ‘difference maker’s in case needed, a trunk load of Dem votes equaling one ‘Franken’.
    _

    harkin (ab264c)

  108. And here I thought it was the people on the spot who were rioting and burning down buildings.

    Yet somehow, Biden can be responsible from the comfort of his basement, right?

    Dave (1bb933)

  109. SO… I know nothing of Proudboys. Only time I hear about this is that the frequently counter-protest Antifa and BLM.

    Not sure if this is their site:
    https://proudboysusa.com/tenets/

    Here’s there Tenet:

    Core Values Of The Proud Boys
    Minimal Government
    Maximum Freedom
    Anti-Political Correctness
    Anti-Drug War
    Closed Borders
    Anti-Racial Guilt
    Anti-Racism
    Pro-Free Speech (1st Amendment)
    Pro-Gun Rights (2nd Amendment)
    Glorifying the Entrepreneur
    Venerating the Housewife
    Reinstating a Spirit of Western Chauvinism

    Though these are our central tenets, all that is required to become a Proud Boy is that a man declare he is “a Western chauvinist who refuses to apologize for creating the modern world.” We do not discriminate based upon race or sexual orientation/preference. We are not an “ism”, “ist”, or “phobic” that fits the Left’s narrative. We truly believe that the West Is The Best and welcome those who believe in the same tenets as us

    I… really don’t see anything that says they’re “racists” or “right-wing militias”.

    I know SPLC labels them as racist group, but SPLC’s reputation is a dumpster fire I discount everything they say.

    Anyone got something else?

    whembly (c30c83)

  110. Number of times Republican President won the EC reaching < 50% of the total votes:
    7

    Number of times Democrat President won the EC reaching < 50% of the total votes:
    10

    whembly (c30c83) — 9/30/2020 @ 1:26 pm

    That makes sense. The EC was like the 3/5ths compromise. It’s all about helping the bad guys keep power over the will of the good people, for slavery, etc. Now that the GOP is the democratic party of 150 years ago, they are now benefiting from it the way the democrats used to.

    Stand back Stand by Stand white!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  111. And yeah, I know, if Chicago is going to find a trunk with 700 billion ballots, the EC is the way the nation is kinda protected from that.

    But it’s clearly an instrument of darkness, and we will have to find a better way.

    Then again, maybe the county machine knows mom and pop are gone and they’ve been added to the list of available ‘difference maker’s in case needed, a trunk load of Dem votes equaling one ‘Franken’.
    _

    harkin (ab264c) — 9/30/2020 @ 1:47 pm

    No question about it. Voter rolls have to be fixed. The whole thing needs to be reformed. But the way we are protecting ourselves is not effective, and Trump is actively delegitimizing the race with the help of our nation’s enemies in Russia. Clear and present is Trump, but the whole election process needs to be fixed.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  112. Four years ago, when asked to condemn David Duke and refuse his endorsement, Trump said, “I don’t know anything about David Duke.” And today he doesn’t know anything about the Proud Boys, though he knew them well enough last night to say “stand back and stand by”.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  113. RIP Mac Davis (78).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  114. Anyone got something else?

    I’m sure “Western chauvinism” is a principle every descendant of a slave or victim of Jim Crow and segregation can get behind.

    Dave (1bb933)

  115. I… really don’t see anything that says they’re “racists” or “right-wing militias”.

    I’m glad you’re convinced. Convenient though. Are you also convinced when the other side writes down on a piece of paper that Antifa is innocent, just an idea that fascism is bad?

    SPLC’s reputation is a dumpster fire I discount everything they say.

    You are wise to be skeptical of them and I agree with you. But they lost their reputation due to political and zealous bias. We need to be skeptical of both sides. When folks are openly brandishing rifles on street corners, I do not start from a position of respect.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  116. Fast national ratings for the broadcast networks show the debate gathering 28.82 million viewers across ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox

    I would like to see it graphed by the minute.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  117. whembly @122-

    See post 88.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  118. And calling someone a jerk is crude

    Not graded on the curve in my house.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  119. Are you also convinced when the other side writes down on a piece of paper that Antifa is innocent, just an idea that fascism is bad?

    Well of course not; they’re the other side!

    Dave (1bb933)

  120. Tricky Dicky [didn’t get a majority]

    The first time he ran a 3 way race. That makes it harder. Reagan got a majority with a serious independent, but I think he was the first.

    The second time, Nixon ran the table.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  121. Number of times Republican President won the EC reaching < 50% of the total votes:
    7

    Number of times Democrat President won the EC reaching < 50% of the total votes:
    10

    Democrats have been at it longer

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  122. Who in their right mind could think this is the right time to reopen these floating Petri dishes?

    Who in their right mind buys tickets? Think of it as evolution in action.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  123. Winning without a majority is fine. Most elective offices in our country don’t require an absolute majority.

    To me, winning without a plurality is problematic if it is not an extremely rare occurrence, because it de-legitimizes the system.

    When enough people are convinced the system is illegitimate, you get Trump, and others like him.

    And one Trump is too many.

    Dave (1bb933)

  124. I… really don’t see anything that says they’re “racists” or “right-wing militias”.

    The ADL covers it.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  125. @127

    When enough people are convinced the system is illegitimate

    Only if folks fail at basic civics.

    whembly (c30c83)

  126. Who in their right mind buys tickets? Think of it as evolution in action.

    Sigh. I knew someone would make this argument.

    We could do the same with drunk driving, couldn’t we? The problem is that people who get infected through irresponsible behavior can infect, and kill, others around them.

    And more generally, the spread of the virus harms everyone by disrupting peoples’ ability to lead normal lives, children to attend school, young adults to attend college, etc.

    Enough is enough. F*ck this virus.

    Dave (1bb933)

  127. https://i.imgur.com/zzL7iYA.gifv

    This has been covered before, but only one of these men has to pay for the company of women, and it really really shows.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  128. @Thread.

    I purposely waited to see if anyone caught this.

    But another Trump’s gaffe is that he said he would reduce prescription cost by 80%-90%.

    Did anyone catch that?

    I’m like… no bruh, that ain’t it sport.

    whembly (c30c83)

  129. But another Trump’s gaffe is that he said he would reduce prescription cost by 80%-90%.

    Well, I certainly noticed it and shook my head at the time.

    I guess I’m kind of numb to these garden-variety lies from him.

    Back in October 2016, he promised “You’re going to have such great health care at a tiny fraction of the cost. And it’s going to be so easy.”

    “Tiny” fraction must mean less than half, right? It suggests much less than a half.

    How likely is it – absent some single-payer scheme that hides the costs behind a huge tax or borrowing – that health care costs can be reduced by more than half?

    Dave (1bb933)

  130. The problem is that people who get infected through irresponsible behavior can infect, and kill, others around them.

    And not even know it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  131. Trump claims his policies made insulin ‘so cheap, it’s like water.’ But for most people, it costs just as much as before

    Not only has he lowered drug prices, President Trump claimed in the first 15 minutes of Tuesday’s debate — but he has helped lower the price of insulin, specifically, so that it is so cheap that it’s “like water.”

    In reality, insulin still retails for roughly $300 a vial. Most patients with diabetes need two to three vials per month, and some can require much more.
    ……
    Trump has, however, cut insulin costs for a small subset of seniors. In March, his administration announced a plan to cap what seniors pay at the pharmacy counter at $35 a month. That perk is only available to a fraction of seniors enrolled in certain pricey private insurance plans.
    ……
    A number of insulin makers have also temporarily offered cheaper insulin in response to Covid-19, not Trump’s actions. …..
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  132. Black Professor, teaches at Kentucky State, a Historically Black State University.
    Current Rules by a Roberts todays version 10.2 say all whites (includes hispanics) must stand criticism of this professor down.
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/sep/30/wilfred-reilly-insists-proud-boys-arent-white-supr/

    via Instapundit

    steveg (43b7a5)

  133. First Helen Reddy. Now Mac Davis.

    True to form: the 70’s were a dead decade.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  134. What did I learn last night?

    Well, for starters, every reason I had for not voting for Trump in 2016 was justified. Every reason I have for not voting for Trump in 2020 was confirmed.

    I also learned that what I predicted about the aftermath on Nov. 3 was true. Trump will not go gently into that good night.

    https://reason.com/2020/09/30/tuesdays-debate-demonstrated-that-donald-trump-wants-this-election-to-become-a-chaotic-mess/

    He can’t afford to concede the election under any circumstances. Not because his narcissism won’t allow him to, but because his financial peril prevents him from doing so. He’s broke!

    From the very beginning, I’ve said that Trump was a total fraud and a complete failure, at business and in real estate. He owes $421 million in personally guaranteed loans, due in a few years.

    The only reason why a lender or lenders (and we don’t know who they are) would grant him a personally guaranteed loan is because his assets don’t cover the cost. His gilded hotels and grotesque golf courses are bleeding money like a stabbed hemorrhagic.

    He has to stay in office to avoid yet another bankruptcy. Also, because as a private citizen, he faces serious charges of tax, bank and wire fraud. The SDNY is not going away. Neither are the state district attorneys in Illinois and Florida, and elsewhere.

    By the way, did you know he’s being sued by over 3,500 companies over his second round of tariffs?

    https://reason.com/2020/09/29/will-these-lawsuits-end-trumps-tariffs-more-than-3500-u-s-companies-hope-so/

    This man-child is a complete disaster. He’s dividing not unifying the country. He’s racked up deficits like no other president before him. He’s calling on his cultist supporters to disrupt ballot counting and mail delivery. And he’s doing it shamelessly.

    Plus, he refuses to accept any responsibility for his abject failure in responding to the Covid-19 pandemic. Over 200,000 people are dead, due to his negligence. Or inability to read briefings.

    Many other countries have managed to control the coronavirus and are returning to normal. Not the US. And why? Because we have an idiot as president.

    The GOP will regret nominating and electing this fraud. Down ballot races are at serious risk here. The Senate for one. The state legislatures for another, and the governors.

    The more one attaches to or associates with Trump, the more one looses. That is a historical fact.

    The Republican party made a Faustian deal when they deliberately excluded real conservatives and elected a faux conservative, who is neither a Christian or an American. The GOP will pay dearly at the polls for it, and not for just this election, for generations.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  135. @124. “Nixon in a 3-way…”

    Oh, what Penthouse cartoonists could have done w/that. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  136. Mrs. Montagu studied Speech and Hearing Sciences at the UW, and she caught this on Facebook. It makes sense.

    “Joe Biden is a stutterer. Like many others, he has overcome the disability by understanding it and exercising extraordinary perseverance and discipline. If you know and love a stutterer and you watched the presidential debate last night, within minutes it became obvious what was going on. Abusive tone of voice, rapid fire interruptions, zigzagging change of topic, personal insult and humiliation, and family pain are all tripwires that scramble a stutterer’s ability to speak. There was nothing unplanned or spontaneous in the President’s strategy. They prepped him to attack Joe’s disability hoping that by triggering his stuttering they might deceive an audience unfamiliar with the disability into thinking that Joe was stupid, weak, uncertain, confused, or lost to dementia.
    If you have ever gotten in the face of bully on the playground protecting a stutterer that you love, the game being played last night was nakedly and painfully obvious.”

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  137. Not sure who won the debate, but Wallace lost. What a disgrace he was

    Ventura Highway (389c44)

  138. The best way for the president and Biden to debate at this point would be for them both to have no moderator at all. Just let Joe ramble for 45 minutes, and then let the President rebut for 45 minutes. The end. No interruptions, no dumb partisan gotcha questions, no personal interaction between the two.

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  139. @141. Bull.

    Excuses, excuses, excuses.

    There’s 330 million Americans– the vast majority of whom do not stutter, do not use their dead kid who died of natural causes, not in battle, repeatedly In public discourse as an emotional crutch-especially on global television; have not has multiple brain surgeries; have not nor could not afford cosmetic hair-plugs and have not plagiarized other people’s work product and called it their own.

    A CIC has to be an SOB.

    Trump is.

    Biden ain’t.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  140. A CIC has to be an SOB.

    Trump is.

    There was no cunning to Trump’s lazy and stupid strategy.

    Leaders also need character, fortitude, wisdom. Trump is a loser. The debate is the latest think Trump failed at because he didn’t have work ethic. You’re supposed to prepare for this stuff, not cut corners by hoping you can make your opponent crumble with insane behavior.

    And note, Biden didn’t crumble. The moderator was wilting, most of the audience freaking out, twitter, all journalists apparently, freaking out. Biden did better than you’re giving him credit for doing.

    In fact, if you want to look for a tough debater, look at Biden hammering Paul Ryan.

    Paul’s theory makes sense. Trump cannot resist attacking a disability. He’s done it many times. He is the bad guy.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  141. DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/30/2020 @ 3:38 pm

    Always wrong, never in doubt.

    Just like his orange idol.

    Dave (1bb933)

  142. The best way for the president and Biden to debate at this point would be for them both to have no moderator at all. Just let Joe ramble for 45 minutes, and then let the President rebut for 45 minutes. The end. No interruptions, no dumb partisan gotcha questions, no personal interaction between the two.

    qdpsteve (8d496a) — 9/30/2020 @ 3:34 pm

    Maybe Trump’s campaign shouldn’t have negotiated a debate where Trump shuts up while the other guy talks, then. Trump can’t handle the format everyone else has been fine with? Tough s___. I say change nothing. Don’t cut mikes, don’t pretend Trump doesn’t need a moderator to tell him to be quiet. If Trump can’t handle it without crumbling, just because he’s in the same room as Joe Biden, Tough s___.

    Trump’s rambling and hostility, often to his own senior advisors that Biden quoted, looks like he’s on meth. If Trump weren’t so overweight I would really wonder. Maybe that’s why Trump demanded drug tests, to get the other side to say they are absurd before we all saw just how far Trump’s declined?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  143. @137

    I was just about to post that. Here are some interesting tidbits:

    Wilfred Reilly, associate professor of political science at Kentucky State University, said Wednesday that “the Proud Boys aren’t white supremacists,” describing the right-wing group’s beliefs as “Western chauvinist” and noting that their international chairman, Enrique Tarrio, is Black.
    . . .
    r. Reilly said that about 10% to 20% of Proud Boys activists are people of color, a diverse racial composition that is “extremely well-known in law enforcement,” based on his research.

    “Enrique Tarrio, their overall leader, is a Black Cuban dude. The Proud Boys explicitly say they’re not racist,” Mr. Reilly told The Washington Times. “They are an openly right-leaning group and they’ll openly fight you — they don’t deny any of this — but saying they’re White supremacist: If you’re talking about a group of people more than 10% people of color and headed by an Afro-Latino guy, that doesn’t make sense.”

    As I suspected, the truth here is more complex than “Trump coddles racists.”

    And this same criticism applies to Chris Wallace’s question.

    Chris Wallace: “Are you willing, tonight, to condemn white supremacists and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down…”

    Notice how he lumps two different things together. That’s the “planted axiom” as William F. Buckley used to say.

    Now you can condemn Trump for not being able to hit back on that, and making his point clear. But the narrative that he refused to condemn white supremacists is distorted and misleading.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  144. Here is a link to a picture of Enrique Tarrio, head of the Proud Boys.

    https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/leader-of-the-far-right-group-proud-boys-enrique-tarrio-news-photo/1162234167

    Whatever else they are, they are not a white supremacists group. A white supremacist group would not have anyone who looks like that as its head.

    It would be like a Neo-Nazi group having a yarmulka-wearing Jew named Chaim Yankel Goldberg as its president. Not happening.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  145. I think my shock collar idea is really the best compromise, plus it would generate yuuuge interest in the debate and be good for ratings.

    Another possibility, since “deep fakes” are all the rage: digital mutilation.

    As a candidate violates the rules, let the producers digitally manipulate their on-screen image to look more and more unflattering.

    Add a clown nose, grease paint, polka-dotted bow-tie, fright wig, etc getting more and more ludicrous the more they abuse the rules.

    Voice modulation into Alvin and the Chipmunks, Pee-Wee Herman, etc could also be toggled on.

    Dave (1bb933)

  146. 139 said

    His gilded hotels and grotesque golf courses are bleeding money like a stabbed hemorrhagic.

    This made me laugh heartily. Thank you for that, Gawain’s Ghost! I really needed some humor today.

    norcal (a5428a)

  147. But the narrative that he refused to condemn white supremacists is distorted and misleading.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec) — 9/30/2020 @ 3:54 pm

    No, Trump was asked specifically about white supremacists. In his mind, that’s the proud boys. And they need to stand by because them liberals are at it again.

    There is always some argument that words don’t mean what they mean, that we didn’t see what we saw, that this is a deception. Trump could just say right now what he thinks. He’s had years of this crap. It is what it is.

    The Proud Boys explicitly say they’re not racist,

    The KKK also explicitly says it is not racist.

    Trump needs to tell these folks they are doing wrong, but he sent thugs to LIBERATE MICHIGAN. He seems to want the unrest. I don’t understand why. This is his watch, things clearly suck a lot. Trump knows how to be a huge loser, but I don’t know why he always does this stuff.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  148. @144. If you can find the wrong there, answer it. Or are you just Biden-time.

    Reaganoptics. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  149. ^@146.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  150. @144. If you can find the wrong there, answer it. Or are you just Biden-time.

    Reaganoptics. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/30/2020 @ 4:06 pm

    Plagiarism. Reagan. Battlestar Galactica.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  151. @150. Collar shocking a multiple brain surgery patient isn’t good for their wiring, Davey.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  152. Dustin, show me on the doll where my comment triggered you so badly.
    Also, do something about your own rambling and hostility before mouthing off about Trump’s.

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  153. Trump definitely needs to denounce the right wing groups responsible for virtually none of the mob rioting and looting.

    Meanwhile, Joe’s emphatic denunciation doesn’t jibe with actions of his staff, but that’s okay. He’s trustworthy, and words matter more than actions.

    beer ‘n pretzels (2baa10)

  154. Yes, we have a goodly number of Proud Boys in Chicago. They hold their annual parade in Boys Town every June, usually on the second Sunday. Trump’s birthday is on June 14, I can’t say that’s more than a coincidence. They are mostly white but not exclusively.

    nk (1d9030)

  155. Leaders also need character, fortitude, wisdom.

    ROFLMOPIP. That would be news to Stalin, Hitler and Tojo.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  156. No, Trump was asked specifically about white supremacists.

    No, Trump was asked “specifically” about two groups, white supremacists AND milita.

    Nice try. But we live in a digital age, where this kind of lying BS does not work.

    In his mind, that’s the proud boys.

    Or perhaps in his mind, the Proud Boys are “militia.” See my last comment.

    The KKK also explicitly says it is not racist.

    Really? Where. Prove it. Open book, open internet.

    And as for the Proud Bboys, see my prior comment. Racist organizations don’t have a black guy lead them and a 10 to 20% membership of people of color.

    Not to beat a dead horse (but then again, why not, at least it’s not animal cruelty), this is how we got Trump in the first place, and why we might get him again.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  157. Trump definitely needs to denounce the right wing groups

    beer ‘n pretzels (2baa10) — 9/30/2020 @ 4:10 pm

    If he didn’t want to lose the debate, yes, stand up to them. Ask DSCSA. The CIC needs a spine.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  158. Really? Where. Prove it. Open book, open internet.

    https://www.newsweek.com/kkk-north-carolina-racist-racism-white-pride-ku-klux-klan-765473

    The fliers inside the resealable bags, containing a business card, mints along with rocks to hold the bags down, questioned why the KKK is seen as racist.

    “Why can’t pro-white rights organizations exist without being labeled racist?” the flier read. “White pride doesn’t mean hate! It’s OK, you can say it! I’m proud to be white! There is no need to feel guilty because of the past!”

    The also endorsed Trump.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/kkk-trump-david-duke-tucker-carlson-election-2020-a9609491.html

    David Duke, one of the US’s most notorious racist extremists, has reiterated his support for Donald Trump’s re-election campaign and suggested the president replace his current vice president, Mike Pence, with Fox News host Tucker Carlson.

    Mr Duke is a renowned neo-Nazi antisemite and white supremacist who founded a Ku Klux Klan chapter in the early 1970s; since then, he has unsuccessfully run for office several times and endorsed various extremist figures and causes.

    In a series of tweets late on Wednesday night, he wrote that “Trump & Tucker is the only way to stop the commie Bolsheviks! It is the only path to beat them! #TrumpTucker2020”

    Dustin (4237e0)

  159. The biggest liar on that stage last night was the 47 year swamp creature who told Americans ‘a government program would pay for itself.’

    It’s precisely that kind of ‘malarkey’ that got Trump elected in the first place.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  160. ROFLMOPIP. That would be news to Stalin, Hitler and Tojo.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/30/2020 @ 4:12 pm

    Losers

    Dustin (4237e0)

  161. Racist organizations don’t have a black guy lead them and a 10 to 20% membership of people of color.

    Astroturf organizations with front men might. Not that I really care, but those who do might want to check the Proud Boys antecedents. Where and when they sprang up, who organized them, who provided the seed money.

    nk (1d9030)

  162. @163

    Sorry, first one is close, but does not cut it. They don’t deny they are racists, just want good PR.

    Second one just said a notorious racist endorsed Trump.

    Try again.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  163. It would be like a Neo-Nazi group having a yarmulka-wearing Jew named Chaim Yankel Goldberg as its president. Not happening.

    The original nazis had Jewish supporters.

    Their leader wound up in a concentration camp, but died of natural causes before the Holocaust got going.

    Dave (1bb933)

  164. The biggest liar on that stage last night was the 47 year swamp creature who told Americans ‘a government program would pay for itself.’

    You have one point but you’re going to make it sore milking it like that. Settle down. Great scandal of the ages it is not.

    The leader of the free world got on his knees and kissed the ass of white supremacism on national tv. Everyone agrees Trump failed, lost, was outgunned, as usual.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  165. ROFLMOPIP. That would be news to Stalin, Hitler and Tojo.

    Three monogamists who could grow a moustache.

    nk (1d9030)

  166. Try again.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec) — 9/30/2020 @ 4:17 pm

    no need, you know I’m right

    Dustin (4237e0)

  167. Where and when they sprang up, who organized them, who provided the seed money.

    nk (1d9030) — 9/30/2020 @ 4:16 pm

    Was it rubles? I bet it was rubles.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  168. Dustin, show me on the doll where my comment triggered you so badly.
    Also, do something about your own rambling and hostility before mouthing off about Trump’s.

    qdpsteve (8d496a) — 9/30/2020 @ 4:09 pm

    I am rambling. True. Sorry, sincerely.

    Hostile? No. I’m cheerful. Life is great. Trump is losing and I am happy to laugh at him and the efforts to defend losing.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  169. “I’m a pro.” – Chris Wallace.

    No.

    You’re not.

    Exhibit A: last night.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  170. @165. Losers.

    ROFLMAOPIP. So was Churchill.

    See 1945 for details. =mike-drop=

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  171. Ernst Röhm was gay. Will anyone say with a straight face the Nazis weren’t homophobic?

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  172. Was it rubles? I bet it was rubles.

    Johnny Caspar would call that a sure bet.

    nk (1d9030)

  173. @176. Will anyone say with a straight face the Nazis weren’t homophobic?

    Judge for yourself:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPXHRX8Q2hs

    “Deutschland is happy and gay…”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  174. Hostile? No. I’m cheerful. Life is great. Trump is losing and I am happy to laugh at him and the efforts to defend losing.

    Right, just like he was losing badly to Hillary right at this point in 2016.
    It’s not just Trump apologists who’ve been pointing out that Dems are making all the same mistakes this time around.

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  175. Judge tosses suit over Trump affair story after Fox News argues no “reasonable viewer” takes Tucker Carlson seriously

    A Manhattan judge has tossed out a defamation lawsuit against Fox News brought by the former Playboy model who took a $150,000 payoff to squelch her story of an affair with a pre-presidency Donald Trump. Karen McDougal had alleged in the suit filed late last year that Fox host Tucker Carlson slandered her by calling the payout “a classic case of extortion.”

    U.S. District Court Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil ruled on Thursday that McDougal failed to prove that Carlson was accusing her of an actual crime in a way that would back up a defamation claim. The judge said that lawyers for Fox “persuasively” argued that “any reasonable viewer ‘arrive[s] with an appropriate amount of skepticism’ about the statements” Carlson makes, according to a court filing.

    Sure, but their viewers aren’t reasonable.

    Dave (1bb933)

  176. See 1945 for details. =mike-drop=

    Not sure what Stalin is supposed to have own in WWII, since he was a Nazi ally from the start, and simply lost enormous amounts of blood and treasure trusting white supremacists. What did Togo win in 1945? What did Hitler win?

    They all made a lot of dents in good things. Because they were losers. History will remember them as losers, same as it will record the loser of this debate, same as Trump’s taxes for the last 600 years say who the real loser was, time and time again.

    Losers.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  177. Dems are making all the same mistakes this time around.

    Oh, I didn’t say the dems were winning. I said Trump was losing. Trump couldn’t get anywhere near as many votes as Hillary, but not because Hillary was great at anything. Trump is just a colossal loser. He won because of a slavery era idiot law about how we pick presidents the voters didn’t want to be president, but he has never had a mandate, because America has never respected losers like Trump.

    And Biden? He’s totally unimpressive, not fit to lead. But he’s clobbering Trump. He trolled Trump into the most significant gaffe in any presidential campaign in my life just by urging Trump to ‘do it’ when Wallace told Trump to condemn racists.

    And that makes sense, qdp. Trump is the worst businessman in American history. If he had a nickel for every dollar he lost, he’d be richer than all of us combined.

    Just a loser.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  178. Ben Shapiro puts down the Trump refused to condemn white supremacy lie. Also, why didn’t/won’t Biden condemn the Antifa and BLM looters, rioters, and vandalism?

    https://youtu.be/MNYvisUI9sw

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  179. If I could write a piece for Babylon Bee, my headline:

    “To avoid need for further debates, God turns both Trump and Biden into pillars of salt”

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  180. > The first time he [Nixon] ran a 3 way race.
    > Reagan got a majority with a serious independent, but I think he was the first.

    nitpick: nixon’s first run for the presidency was a two-way race, in 1960. Neither he nor Kennedy got an outright majority of the popular vote; both got more than 49.5% but less than 50%. The race as effectively a tie.

    The other postwar, pre-Reagan year with a big third party candidacy was 1948; Truman did not achieve 50%.

    Before that, in 1924, LaFollett got 16%, but Coolidge got 54%. In 1920, Debs got 3% and Christiansen got 1%, but Harding got 60%. In 1908, Debs got 3%, Chafin got 2%, and Taft got 52%. In 1904, Debs got 3%, Swallow got 2%, and Roosevelt got 57%.

    I’m not retreating into the 19th century. :)

    aphrael (4c4719)

  181. @179

    The 2016 race was extremely volatile, with large poll swings and an abnormally large fraction of undecided voters right up to Election Day.

    This year’s race is the opposite. It has remained completely stable through one crisis after another, and there are very voters who claim to still be undecided, or even open to changing their preference under any circumstances.

    Dave (1bb933)

  182. > To me, winning without a plurality is problematic if it is not an extremely rare occurrence, because it de-legitimizes the system.

    twice in the last twenty years, both sides benefitting the same side … and before that, not in more than a century.

    it’s hardly surprising the people who were on the losing end of non-plurality victories twice in two decades are a unhappy with the system.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  183. The problem is that people who get infected through irresponsible behavior can infect, and kill, others around them.

    Including people on cruise ships. If no one gets on the boat with the virus, no one gets off the boat with the virus. This is not just limited to cruise ships, either. Your argument isn’t “no sparrow must fall”, it’s “no sparrow must fly.”

    To follow your logic, we should ban all alcohol because SOMEONE might drive drunk.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  184. >The leader of the free world got on his knees and kissed the ass of white supremacism on national tv.

    he did more than that. he commanded them to stand by for when they are needed, and implied they will be needed to deal with the left, while suggesting that he doesn’t trust the election administration and isn’t going to accept election results he doesn’t trust.

    the man is a clear and present danger to the integrity of the republic, *as are his supporters*.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  185. The EC has a very very limited, practically accidental benefit in protecting the nation from one state rigging its popular vote total. And the price is horrible.

    It’s been good for the GOP for a while, but other than partisanship, why defend it? It’s obviously unfair that the person who gets the most votes loses to the person who didn’t. The issue of making sure the vote totals are accurate is paramount, and we need to think about resolving both of these problems. It’s not like the EC has actually solved the problem.

    And it was all about ensuring slave states had more power, as part of the 3/5ths compromise. Sound of the ideas from the founding, the constitution, are wrong. Ever read the constitution? It’s not 100%.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  186. The Republican party made a Faustian deal when they deliberately excluded real conservatives and elected a faux conservative

    Hunh? There were plenty of other candidates in 2016. They all jockeyed for position to get Trump’s supporters when Trump dripped out. If Kasich had dropped out a month earlier it would be President Cruz in yesterday’s debate.

    They didn’t deliberately exclude anyone, but they DID allow the viper into the nest.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  187. A CIC has to not be a moron.

    Trump is.

    FIFY

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  188. qdpsteve @179-

    Different time, different electorate, different candidates. However, feel free to quote 2016 polls while denying the reality of polls in 2020 if it makes you feel better. Too bad they have no relevance today.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  189. Bored Lawyer and Dustin have made me curious. Did the Proud Boys exist before Trump the MAGA?

    If Michael Bloomberg could astroturf the anti-gun group Moms Demand [Hot] Action, why couldn’t, let’s say for the sake of argument, Steve Bannon who was indicted for diverting $170 million from a Wall scam, or Brad Parscale who was ostensibly fired for squandering Trump campaign funds, astroturf the Proud Boys, as Trump’s very own Brown Shorts?

    We also have [Eat] America First which, despite its Nazi-era isolationist name, in its present incarnation is a newly-formed pro-Trump political action group, and nothing more than that, as another obvious example.

    nk (1d9030)

  190. Hey Rip: kindly take your stupid assumptions about me and stick ’em where the sun don’t shine.

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  191. it’s hardly surprising the people who were on the losing end of non-plurality victories twice in two decades are a unhappy with the system.

    2000 was was practically a tie (Dubya lost the popular vote by 0.5%).

    In 2016, the margin was over 2%.

    And this year, there are plausible scenarios where Biden wins the popular vote by as much as 5% and still loses the election.

    Thinking in terms of compromise, a good one might be to combine popular election with a robust biometric national voter ID system.

    Dave (1bb933)

  192. qdpsteve-

    Sorry I misinterpreted your comment.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  193. @193. A CIC has to not be a moron.

    Or worse, an actor and a showman.

    Trump is. Reagan was.

    FIFY

    Reaganoptics 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  194. The Republican party made a Faustian deal when they deliberately excluded real conservatives and elected a faux conservative

    :-)

    Glorious!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  195. The leader of the free world got on his knees and kissed the ass of white supremacism on national tv.

    he did more than that. he commanded them to stand by for when they are needed, and implied they will be needed to deal with the left, while suggesting that he doesn’t trust the election administration and isn’t going to accept election results he doesn’t trust.

    the man is a clear and present danger to the integrity of the republic, *as are his supporters*.

    aphrael (4c4719) — 9/30/2020 @ 4:55 pm

    How many times must President Trump condemn white supremacy before you guys stop saying he supports white supremacy?

    Ben Shapiro puts down the Trump refused to condemn white supremacy lie. Also, why didn’t/won’t Biden condemn the Antifa and BLM looters, rioters, and vandalism?

    https://youtu.be/MNYvisUI9sw

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  196. Will anyone say with a straight face the Nazis weren’t homophobic?

    Besides Goering? They had official policies that spelled the death of millions, but there were exceptions for some.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  197. President Trump had to opponents in the debate. Joe Biden and Chris Wallace.

    https://youtu.be/nxTRYzqoNqU

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  198. Just kick the Senators out of the Electoral College, and apportion the Representatives’ Electoral votes in all the states, like they now do in Maine and Nebraska.

    nk (1d9030)

  199. Tanny O’Hanley, it’s nice that you quoted me to then ask about white supremacy. If you reread what I wrote, i’m not accusing him of being a white supremacist — i’m accusing him of, on national television, openly telling a militia group to *stand by* while implying that he’s going to need their services to *take care of the left* while implying that he won’t abide by the election results if he doesn’t trust them.

    That’s just not ok. My issue isn’t that the particular group he told to stand by is a white supremacist group, it’s the fact that he told a militia to stand by, listed potential targets, and suggested that he won’t respect the election result.

    This is unacceptable behavior from *any* presidential candidate. Quite honestly, it comes *very* close to treason in my book.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  200. > Just kick the Senators out of the Electoral College, and apportion the Representatives’ Electoral votes in all the states, like they now do in Maine and Nebraska.

    gah! this magnifies the negative effect of gerrymandering.

    *proportional* allocation within states is one thing. but allocating by CD is an awful solution.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  201. The EC has a very very limited, practically accidental benefit in protecting the nation from one state rigging its popular vote total. And the price is horrible.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 4:56 pm

    I disagree. I think the electoral college is doing what it was designed to do which is to prevent a few states from having control over the whole country and making politicians address every single state. That’s how it’s designed and that’s how it works and I am happy with it even when it causes my candidate to loose.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  202. Kevin M,

    You have been on fire lately. I am glad you comment here. Your thinking is some of the clearest I’ve encountered.

    norcal (a5428a)

  203. “How many times must President Trump condemn white supremacy before you guys stop saying he supports white supremacy?”

    Once would be a good start.

    Davethulhu (62e67d)

  204. To follow your logic, we should ban all alcohol because SOMEONE might drive drunk.

    No.

    Someone who drinks but doesn’t drive puts nobody at risk. The decision to drive is the irresponsible one.

    Somebody who embarks on a cruise risks contracting and transmitting the virus, through no further agency of their own. The last opportunity to prevent that is to keep them from getting on the ship.

    If drunks randomly exploded and killed everyone nearby, we likely *would* ban all alcohol…

    Dave (1bb933)

  205. Thinking in terms of compromise, a good one might be to combine popular election with a robust biometric national voter ID system.

    There are many reasons not to have a popular vote system. Localizing problems such as recounts, localizing differences in registration, ballot-making (e.g. FL), vote-counting and other idiosyncrasies is important. No system of national ID will prevent vote fabrication.

    I see a good argument that some states are too large and should be chopped up to get fairer representation in the Senate and to avoid widespread voter suppression of minority views in large dominant party states (CA, TX, NY).

    As for your chances of getting that national ID for voting, when we have pretty solid state IDs that the courts won’t let us require to voting now … I have my doubts.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  206. More than 73 million people watched that crazy presidential debate-Update

    It may have been nearly unwatchable as a television program, but a lot of people — 73.1 million, to be exact — tuned in for the first general election debate of the 2020 presidential campaign cycle on Tuesday night, according to viewership data released by measurement company Nielsen.

    Still, that audience number, which was based on 16 networks that carried it, was down significantly from the record 84 million people who watched the first debate of the 2016 general election campaign live across 13 television networks. But it was up from the 67 million people that watched the first debate of the 2012 general election campaign between incumbent Barack Obama and challenger Mitt Romney.

    The tally, which was revised up from an earlier count of 64.7 million total viewers that was based on the eight major broadcast and cable news networks, excludes debate viewers who watched via online streaming or on a television networks’ streaming portals such as CNN Go or Fox News Go…….

    With an average 17.8 million total viewers, Fox News was the far-and-away winner of the informal contest between networks for audience share…..
    …….
    Overall, an average of 74 million people tuned in to watch the three debates between candidate Trump and Hillary Clinton in 2016. That was up from the 64 million people who tuned in for the Obama-Romney debates in 2012.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  207. You have been on fire lately. I am glad you comment here. Your thinking is some of the clearest I’ve encountered.

    I was one of the people who tuned it last night that Trump could conceivably convinced to vote for him. There are those who already decided, as someone said, to crawl over ground glass for Trump or Biden. But there were many who were weakly committer or undecided.

    Trump solved any issues I had, but not in a way he’d like. I do not trust the Democrat Party, I view Kamala Harris with actual fear, but I will not lift a finger to help Donald Trump stay in office a moment longer than is necessary.

    If Trump actually cared about stopping Biden, he’d resign.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  208. Kevin M – I also think a big part of the complaint could be solved by quadrupling the size of Congress, which (a) would reduce the represented:representative ratio from 750K:1 to 187K:1, which makes actual representation seem more likely, and (b) would reduce the imbalance caused by the senatorial electors, while preserving the problem-localizing aspect of the EC.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  209. gah! this magnifies the negative effect of gerrymandering.

    *proportional* allocation within states is one thing. but allocating by CD is an awful solution.

    No, no, no, Mr. aphrael. Proportional allocation within the state is what I meant. Like Maine and Nebraska. Only the number of Congressional Districts would matter. To divide up the state total. Not how any particular district voted.

    nk (1d9030)

  210. aphrael (4c4719) — 9/30/2020 @ 5:11 pm

    As I read your reply and stated I don’t believe you were saying President Trump is a white supremacist but that he supports white supremacist organizations like proud boys. I believe Ben Shapiro address is that in this video.

    https://youtu.be/MNYvisUI9sw

    I’m sorry, but because of Parkinson’s I have to use dictation and dictation is horrible. It requires a lot of correction which is difficult for me to do with a Parkinson’s tremor. You can see that in one of my comments above where dictation put in the word to when I meant the number two. For this reason I put up the video with the hope someone would look at it because it articulates the point I would like to put forth far better than I do.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  211. Besides Goering? They had official policies that spelled the death of millions, but there were exceptions for some.
    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/30/2020 @ 5:07 pm

    That was my point. A group having non-white members isn’t inconsistent with it being white supremacist. In the Proud Boys’ case it’s more likely de facto than de jure, but as a practical matter that’s po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  212. Trump brought a beautiful spectacle, like a thousand unjustly moderated comment sections all come back for revenge aginst officious speech police at once. Joe brought nothing but loudly claiming that various long-discredited hoaxes (FINE PEOPLE! RUSSIAN BOUNTIES!) were real. to near-zero pushback from Chris Wallace, who has no excuse for not knowing better.

    May we all sleep soundly knowing that our crack-head sons, too, can overcome drug problems at unspecified times to make billions of dollars outsourcing American jobs, expertise, and technology to Communists overseas, and keep our common Scranton crime families fed.

    The content mattered little. Trump played the President. Biden played the Assistant Manager. “Come on, boss, I hit all the talking points you told me to, why ya gotta be so mean!”

    Bart Motes (62e901)

  213. 73.1 million, to be exact — tuned in

    How many were still watching a half hour later? It’s not like the main takeaway was yet to come.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  214. prevent a few states from having control over the whole country

    The government is supposed to reflect the will of the people. The states are not our masters, nor we their servants.

    making politicians address every single state

    Uh, what?

    How much campaigning has there been in California, where 1/8 of the country lives?

    I don’t feel very addressed.

    Dave (1bb933)

  215. Proud Boys Founder Gavin McInnes Reacts to Trump ‘Stand Back and Stand By’ Order Live in Real Time
    ……..
    “Proud Boys, stand back and stand by,” Trump said, then quickly added, “But I’ll tell you what, somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right-wing problem.”
    ……
    But the most immediate reaction came from McInnes, who was podcasting the debate live. During the show, which he describes as “basically Tucker Carlson Tonight if he was a rude drunk,” McInnes did a literal double-take when Trump mentioned the group.

    “Did he say Proud Boys?” a stunned McInnes said, to which his guest replied “He certainly the fuck did,” before misquoting Trump back to McInnes.

    “He said ‘okay Proud Boys, stand down and stand back, but we have to worry about Antifa,’” the guest said.

    “Did he say ‘Proud Boys stand down and stand back?” McInnes repeated, to which the guest replied “He did a general command. He’s the general of the proud boys.”

    “I control the Proud Boys, Donald! Do not stand down, do not stand back!” McInnes said, feigning indignation.

    Despite the misquote, social media activity shows that the group got the “Stand by” message loud and clear. The Proud Boys posted the clip on Parler with the message “Sorry @gavinmcinnes but we got a new leader..”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  216. I also think a big part of the complaint could be solved by quadrupling the size of Congress

    Well, maybe. It solves some problems, and makes gerrymanders harder, but the big-state winner-takes-all thing is really the problem. Not only does it eliminate the effect of minority positions, but it discourages many voters who do not support the expected winner, distorting the reported popular vote.

    A system where the EC vote was pro-rated within each state, probably with some floor to avoid small parties from forcing a close election into the House, or by congressional district might work. Although in all those scenarios, Romney wins in 2012, if only in the House.

    Nothing is perfect IF your gold standard is the popular vote.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  217. Like Maine and Nebraska.

    What you describe is not what Maine and Nebraska do.

    The votes in each district determine who gets that elector. I think aphrael is right that it could be easily manipulated by gerrymandering.

    Of course, straight proportional allocation could work but is not used anywhere currently as it dilutes a state’s importance compared to “winner take all”.

    Dave (1bb933)

  218. Rather than quadrupling the number of districts, seat the top 4 vote-getters in each district, with each voter getting ONE vote. This will flatly eliminate extremes in all but the most monolithic districts. You’d at least get diversity (in the actual sense).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  219. NK, both maine and nebraska allocated electors by congressional district. there are two electors for the state, and then every other CD gets one elector.

    that’s a terrible system as it magnifies the effect of gerrymandering.

    a system where the idea was that for every (1/#of electors) percent of the state’s popular vote, with the overall winner getting the overage, works much better.

    i think that still advantages the party preferred by rural majorities (because it’s easier for the locally disfavored party to get some electors from big states than it is to get some electors from small states), but it’s *way* better than a CD-allocation system.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  220. Just kick the Senators out of the Electoral College, and apportion the Representatives’ Electoral votes in all the states, like they now do in Maine and Nebraska.

    nk (1d9030) — 9/30/2020 @ 5:08 pm

    Senators are not allowed to be in the electoral college. Article II section 1 of the US Constitution.

    Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profitunder the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  221. First, an objection to the video:

    “They shut down the entire county of Los Angeles for a week” … i have a very hard time believing that. can the people who live in LA County confirm or deny?

    Second, Shapiro is not generally responding to what I am concerned about.

    My issue is that what Trump *said* was: “stand back and stand by”. This language is the language you use to an ally you are telling to hold their fire and wait until you are ready for them to act. And he then *immediately* followed this by pivoting to a complaint about how someone needs to do something about antifa and the left.

    This is “won’t someone rid me of that troublesome priest” stuff. He spoke to a militia in language which suggested they are allies he was asking to hold their fire until he was ready for them, and then he immediately followed it with a suggestion that some unnamed someone should do something about antifa and the left.

    He discusses it a bit around 4:30, and he just *asserts* that Trump wasn’t saying the proud boys should do something about antifa and the left. He’s reading the comments entirely differently than I did, and from what I see he’s simply wrong.

    I don’t care about the nature of the militia group in question. He talked to a militia group in language that suggested they are an ally who will listen to him, and then he said *someone* — *someone* — should do something about people he perceives as his enemy.

    This is … just unacceptable, no matter who is doing it.

    Third,

    > I’m sorry, but because of Parkinson’s I have to use dictation and dictation is horrible. It requires a lot of correction which is difficult for me to do with a Parkinson’s tremor

    That sounds frustrating and unpleasant and I thank you for spending the time engaging with us despite the difficulty.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  222. > Senators are not allowed to be in the electoral college. Article II section 1 of the US Constitution.

    While true, it’s also true that each state is allocated a number of electors equal to their number of congresspeople and their number of senators. I took nk as saying that the number should just be the number of congresspeople.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  223. Interestingly enough, Kevin M, multimember districts were banned by Congress during the Gilded Age.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  224. Parscale steps away from Trump campaign as wife denies physical abuse

    Brad Parscale, a senior adviser to Donald Trump’s campaign who was involuntarily detained by police this weekend, said he is stepping away from the reelection effort and seeking help for what he called “overwhelming stress” on him and his family.

    In a statement provided to POLITICO on Wednesday, Parscale’s wife, Candice, also denied that Parscale physically abused her, despite a police report which said she told authorities the contrary.

    “The statements I made on Sunday have been misconstrued, let it be clear my husband was not violent towards me that day or any day prior,” she said.
    ……
    While Candice Parscale said in her Wednesday statement that her husband did not hit her, police say she told them otherwise.
    …….
    Somebody wrote a check.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  225. Thank you, Dave and aphrael. NOT like Maine and Nebraska, then. (In my defense, I have only flown over either one of them.) Just proportional allocation of the total number of votes in the state.

    Tanny, I meant that the two automatic electoral votes every state has by virtue of its two Senators should be eliminated. Only the number of Representatives should count.

    nk (1d9030)

  226. I recently did a little experiment to see what the senate would look like if the last 50 seats were apportioned like the House. Thus each state would be guaranteed one senator rather than two.

    California would have 10 senators, Texas 7, Florida and New York 5, Illinois and Pennsylvania 4.

    The most populous state with a single senator would be Alabama, with 4.7M.

    The maximum disparity in senators per person would be reduced from the current factor of ~70 to “only” a factor of 8.

    Of course, it’s a complete impossibility politically.

    Here’s the webpage. Just change the number of seats to 100.

    Dave (1bb933)

  227. “The EC has a very very limited, practically accidental benefit in protecting the nation from one state rigging its popular vote total. And the price is horrible.

    It’s been good for the GOP for a while, but other than partisanship, why defend it? It’s obviously unfair that the person who gets the most votes loses to the person who didn’t.”

    Well you see, some people, like citizens who’ve lived lives where they actually take jobs, build businesses, raise families, exercise power intelligently, and teach their own kids to do the same, are objectively more valuable in their voting opinion than other people, like childless, deracinated and desocialized urbanites who burn down their joyless cities on a whim and sell the rubble to the highest corporate bidder for the cycle to repeat again for another generation. A state that encourages the former is to be valued, a state that encourages the latter is to be devalued, by any means necessary.

    “The issue of making sure the vote totals are accurate is paramount, and we need to think about resolving both of these problems. It’s not like the EC has actually solved the problem.”

    It dang sure kept the problem confined to cities.

    “And it was all about ensuring slave states had more power, as part of the 3/5ths compromise. Sound of the ideas from the founding, the constitution, are wrong. Ever read the constitution? It’s not 100%.”

    Wards, slaves, dependents, zombies, soulless, disinvested, rent-a-bodies, whatever, the principle of having only citizens who actually care about their country as a whole voting is the same and applicable in all ages no matter what new names you put on the pawns masquerading as representatives.

    Bart Motes (4908b6)

  228. > Well you see, some people, like citizens who’ve lived lives where they actually take jobs, build businesses, raise families, exercise power intelligently, and teach their own kids to do the same, are objectively more valuable in their voting opinion than other people, like childless, deracinated and desocialized urbanites who burn down their joyless cities on a whim and sell the rubble to the highest corporate bidder for the cycle to repeat again for another generation. A state that encourages the former is to be valued, a state that encourages the latter is to be devalued, by any means necessary.

    We are all equally members of the community and there is no moral reason why some of us should have more power — and more say in the future of the community — than the least of us do.

    It may be true as a pragmatic matter that the votes of certain members of the community are more likely to result in positive outcomes than the votes of others. But that does not morally justify some members of the community asserting that they should have the right to make the rules for everyone. Sovereignty is a *collective* thing, shared equally by all in the community.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  229. “Wards, slaves, dependents, zombies, soulless, disinvested, rent-a-bodies, whatever, the principle of having only citizens who actually care about their country as a whole voting is the same and applicable in all ages no matter what new names you put on the pawns masquerading as representatives.”

    Keep advocating disenfranchising the untermenschen, Bart.

    Davethulhu (47d7cb)

  230. > aphrael (4c4719) — 9/30/2020 @ 5:42 pm

    Thank you for watching and commenting on the video. I appreciate it.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  231. Somebody wrote a check.

    You may be on to something:

    According to the source close to the campaign, the Trump family is worried that Parscale could turn on them and cooperate with law enforcement about possible campaign finance violations. “The family is worried Brad will start talking,” the source said.

    Dave (1bb933)

  232. Somebody wrote a check.

    Nah! Women are that way, God bless them. Ask any poor cop sent to a domestic disturbance call.

    nk (1d9030)

  233. Yuuuuge Trump rally- Duluth, MN- live on CSPAN.

    Hey Joe, should take you two hours and three cans of Dutch Boy glossy white to paint a circle around that crowd.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  234. ‘Putin’s Piglet’: Russian Media Admits Trump Lost the Debate
    ……[T]op Kremlin propagandists and state media experts came away disappointed, reluctantly acknowledging that Biden managed to wipe the floor with his loudmouth opponent.
    ……
    In spite of their best efforts, Moscow’s mouthpieces had to concede that the debate was nowhere near the finest hour for their preferred candidate. The host of Russia’s 60 Minutes Evgeny Popov conceded, “All the while we’ve been thinking that Biden is feeble, but it turns out he isn’t. He was able to handle the debate well and acted in an absolutely normal way.”
    …….
    Alexei Naumov from the Russian International Affairs Council concurred: “Trump was supposed to destroy Biden. Biden simply had to withstand his force without breaking and managed to do so. That’s why Biden won the debate. There was no need to continually portray Biden as a demented oldster.” Naumov disagreed with Biden’s description of Trump as “Putin’s puppy,” suggesting that the better term would have been “Putin’s piglet.”
    …….
    …….The growing threat of civil war in the United States is a highly coveted prize for the Kremlin and Putin’s propagandists are already rubbing their hands together with joyous anticipation. Appearing on the state TV show The Evening with Vladimir Soloviev, panelist Karen Shakhnazarov asserted that Americans no longer believe in the fairness of their own elections and civil war is inevitable. He concluded, “America as we knew it is over. Most importantly, the American dream is dead.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  235. As for your chances of getting that national ID for voting, when we have pretty solid state IDs that the courts won’t let us require to voting now … I have my doubts.

    The issues of election and ballot integrity seem easily solvable with technology, if there were a bipartisan commitment to do so.

    It seems obvious to me that federal elections should have uniform standards and procedures everywhere.

    Dave (1bb933)

  236. He concluded, “America as we knew it is over. Most importantly, the American dream is dead.”

    And people actually ask, with a straight face, what Trump has ever done for Putin…

    Dave (1bb933)

  237. 2.I really think the striking takeaway is how unlikable Trump has become — yes, he always was unlikable, but he’s far more so now — humorless, and totally insufferable. No redeeming qualities whatsoever.

    ROFLMAOPIP… have you ever seen J.R. Ewing on Dallas?!?!

    He was ‘unlikable, humorless, and totally insufferable’ yet invited into American living rooms where they loved to hate him, with great ratings, — for 14 seasons.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  238. Regarding the 3/5 clause and slavery from a former slave and abolitionist.

    It is a downright disability laid upon the slaveholding States; one which deprives those States of two-fifths of their natural basis of representation. A black man in a free State is worth just two-fifths more than a black man in a slave State, as a basis of political power under the Constitution. Therefore, instead of encouraging slavery, the Constitution encourages freedom by giving an increase of “two-fifths” of political power to free over slave States. So much for the three-fifths clause; taking it at is worst, it still leans to freedom, not slavery; for, be it remembered that the Constitution nowhere forbids a coloured man to vote.

    — Frederick Douglass

    (1860) FREDERICK DOUGLASS, “THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES: IS IT PRO-SLAVERY OR ANTI-SLAVERY?”

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  239. 212.More than 73 million people watched that crazy presidential debate

    That many people heard Plagiarist JoeyBee call the President of the United States of America a ‘clown’ and demanded he ‘shut up’?!?

    Say it ain’t so, Joe!?

    That’s a lot more than heard you say, “You got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a storybook, man,” about Obama.

    Okay– we’ll stay off your lawn, Joe.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  240. That many people heard Plagiarist JoeyBee call the President of the United States of America a ‘clown’ and demanded he ‘shut up’?!?

    And how many of them cheered because he was disgracing his office by acting like a clown who couldn’t shut up?

    I thought a minute ago you were saying the CIC needs to be a SOB? Now you’re complaining Biden was too hard on Trump?

    have you ever seen J.R. Ewing on Dallas?!?!

    No.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  241. Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 9/30/2020 @ 5:07 pm

    How many times must President Trump condemn white supremacy before you guys stop saying he supports white supremacy?

    I think you got your answer in another comment. There are a number of people who will simply translate whatever Trump says into whatever they want because “they know what he really meant”.

    To the original question in the post; we learned that reality has broken the brains of a lot of people.

    frosty (f27e97)

  242. By a 2 to 1 margin Telemundo Breaks for Trump

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  243. I disagree. I think the electoral college is doing what it was designed to do which is to prevent a few states from having control over the whole country and making politicians address every single state. That’s how it’s designed and that’s how it works and I am happy with it even when it causes my candidate to loose.

    Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 9/30/2020 @ 5:12 pm

    It works for your team.

    If a few states have more people, and we want each person to be equal, then the EC is simply and flatly wrong. There’s no inherent reason why an almost unpopulated state should have the same say as a large, highly populated one, but there is an inherent reason why each person should have the same say. We were all created equal.

    The EC was designed to give slave owning states more power, by counting its representation proportional to each legislator, the house accorded per human, albeit the property humans were only counted at 3/5ths. And it’s tended to work out for that side, which used to be the democrats but is now the republicans.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  244. Well you see, some people, like citizens who’ve lived lives where they actually take jobs, build businesses, raise families, exercise power intelligently, and teach their own kids to do the same, are objectively more valuable in their voting opinion than other people, like childless, deracinated and desocialized urbanites who burn down their joyless cities on a whim and sell the rubble to the highest corporate bidder for the cycle to repeat again for another generation. A state that encourages the former is to be valued, a state that encourages the latter is to be devalued, by any means necessary.

    What’s sad is that you dehumanize all the good folks who happen to live in Texas or California or the like, and aren’t burning down anything on a whim. There’s a word for this attitude. Prejudice. It’s an ad hoc justification for an evil that happens to benefit you. You guys have been doing this for 250 years here.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  245. Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 6:41 pm

    The EC was designed to give slave owning states more power, by counting its representation proportional to each legislator, the house accorded per human, albeit the property humans were only counted at 3/5ths. And it’s tended to work out for that side, which used to be the democrats but is now the republicans.

    This is not what it was designed for. It’s also not that hard to research. Why would you say something so obviously wrong.

    frosty (f27e97)

  246. Facepalm, that not the way it works lol.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  247. Tanny @248-
    By a 2 to 1 margin Telemundo Breaks for Trump

    Click bait poll.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a)

  248. CNN reports.

    “Racism is evil — and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans,” Trump said in response to the attacks in Charlottesville, Virginia, over the weekend.

    Trump calls white supremacists ‘repugnant’

    Just one of many.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  249. This is not what it was designed for. It’s also not that hard to research. Why would you say something so obviously wrong.

    frosty (f27e97) — 9/30/2020 @ 6:50 pm

    It is indeed easy to research. The 3/5s rule, and its obvious benefit to the power of those states with slaves, and therefore the greater representation from the EC, helped slavery persist in our country.

    https://www.amazon.com/Constitution-Today-Timeless-Lessons-Issues/dp/0465096336

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Electoral_College#Original_plan

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/12/13598316/donald-trump-electoral-college-slavery-akhil-reed-amar

    Dustin (4237e0)

  250. Tanny @248-
    By a 2 to 1 margin Telemundo Breaks for Trump

    Click bait poll.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a) — 9/30/2020 @ 6:54 pm

    I know and I don’t care. My hispanic son-in-law and I had a good laugh about it. He says it could be true because everyone in his family respects machismo and he said that President Trump exudes machismo.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  251. But just take stock for a second. I imagine everyone here tries to be a good person. Why should one person have less of a say than another person in elections?

    Why aren’t we all equal when we vote?

    I think republicans who recognize the huge benefits of Bush instead of Gore, and I guess Trump instead of Hillary if they still like that result, should put that aside and just think about whether this is right or wrong.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  252. Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:01 pm

    Former slave and abolitionist Frederick Douglass disagrees with you. See my comment at 243.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  253. O.M.G. Joey’s Cleveland choo-choo presser… so sad.

    Genuinely believe Biden is brain scarred and emotionally damaged. All he does is ramble about his dead kid, his dead father and ‘growing up in Scranton, Pennsylvania’-where the near 78 year old has not lived in 67 years. My grandmother was born and lived in Scranton a helluva lot longer-than him– she died in 1965.

    Biden’s vision for America’s future is behind all of us. Ahead for him is a pine box.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  254. “Yuuuuge Trump rally- Duluth, MN- live on CSPAN.”

    “A man came up to me. A tough man. A man who — a worker, a construction worker. Real worker, and he looked at me — this is two years ago — he said, ‘Sir, you have given us back our life.’ And he was crying.” — Trump

    Davethulhu (47d7cb)

  255. DCSCA, I can’t figure you out. Seems like one night you’re anti-Trump, the next you’re anti-Biden. Do you flip a coin? 😉

    Davethulhu, that was a great Johnny Cash song. :-)

    qdpsteve (8d496a)

  256. Ahead for him is a pine box.

    You’re pathetic.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  257. @245. Send him a DVD set of Anger Management w/’winning’ Charlie Sheen.

    2. You haven’t seen J.R. Ewing on Dallas? Well stick a South Fork in ‘ya and get’er done- Get yourself that DVD set, too– all 14 seasons.

    Did you miss the 1980s too? 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  258. @261. I’m alive. He’s a dead man walking.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  259. DCSCA, is it streaming? I’ll watch a few episodes just for you, but 14 seasons is just asking too much. You gotta be South Park to get that kind of love.

    DCSCA, I can’t figure you out. Seems like one night you’re anti-Trump, the next you’re anti-Biden. Do you flip a coin? 😉

    qdp, they are both really lame. Trump’s worse… he crosses lines that must not be crossed, but Biden is unfit. It’s not an election where there is a right answer… it’s an election where one answer is much more wrong than the other.

    Google “10 thinks I hate about jews” and then ask yourself if all these defenses that the Proud Boys aren’t necessarily racist are strong defenses. Trump really is in the wrong, and about no minor thing.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  260. Former slave and abolitionist Frederick Douglass disagrees with you. See my comment at 243.

    Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:06 pm

    Nah

    Dustin (4237e0)

  261. Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:01 pm

    You are answering a different question. I said it wasn’t designed for that. Even without slavery the people putting together what became the United States wouldn’t have agreed to direct democracy.

    But since we don’t still have slavery the issue of whether it had that effect is interesting but irrelevant to the current EC.

    frosty (f27e97)

  262. @260. The objective is to neuter the modern ideological conservative movement. That is being accomplished. And they still get their SCOTUS as going away prize. It’s glorious- welcome to 1964.

    Trump is a total Reagan Creation- spawned and nurtured in the excess, glitzy go-go 1980s championed by Ronnie’s GOP Righties. He is their ‘picture of Dorian Gray’ -locked away in a Fifth Avenue gilded cage until he got loose and devoured his very creators. He has not changed his act since the days he, Helmsley and Steinbrenner ran Steady Eddie Koch’s NYC.

    Biden is just half-century old Senate swamp scum personified. An unethical liar, exposed thief and lazy-azzed plagiarist who betrayed the very middle class, whites, blacks and browns, he says he championed. Here’s the deal: he is a big friend to Delaware bankers not the Average Joe. And he hasn’t lived in Scranton for 67 years.

    Yes, they’re both terrible. But which is more entertaining?

    In this era, Americans don’t want to be governed, they wish to be entertained. And Trump wins that easily. He has mastered the craft, honed for decades in the media capital of the planet and been invited into American living rooms for years on NBC’s The Apprentice. His rallies are fun. OTOH, Biden projects the ‘no miracle is coming’ joy of a kidney stone.

    But by far the most revealing tell came from the biggest liar on that stage last night when the 47 year swamp creature told Americans ‘a government program would pay for itself.’

    That is precisely the reason Trump was elected. And likely will be again.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  263. I appreciate you have an intelligent disagreement with me, but you said it was very obvious what I was saying wasn’t true. It’s actually based on reading up on the history of this issue. By all means find a different way to explain the EC’s justification. But my explanation is not ‘obviously false’ in such a way that you should be bewildered I stated my opinion. It’s based on common sense and history.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  264. @264. You can’t do the play-by-play w/o knowing the players, Dustin. If you aren’t familiar w/J.R. Ewing, the fella Americans invited into their living rooms and loved to hate for 14 seasons, this game is out of your league.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  265. It’s garbage, Dustin. Pure, unadulterated garbage. A prime-time soap opera (really, a soap opera, that’s why it ran for 14 seasons), with Larry Hagman, the actor from “I Dream Of Jeanie”, playing a Texas oilman. If there has been a worse program on television, it was its spin off “Knots Landing” although its imitator, “Dynasty”, might lay claim to the title too.

    nk (1d9030)

  266. @261. I’m alive. He’s a dead man walking.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:50 pm

    On reflection I should have said “that’s pathetic,” not “you’re pathetic.” I shouldn’t have personalized it. For that I apologize. So I’ll take another crack at it, and this time I’ll try to get it right: Wishcasting somebody, anybody, you don’t like into the grave, whatever their politics, is pathetic. At best.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  267. That was for Frosty of course. I used to be Mr. Republican so I used to nod at how the EC protected the flyovers from politicians only caring about the cities. I really think the internet solved that. Who cares if a politician pays attention to your town? We go to rallies to show support, not to be persuaded.

    It’s funny how once I dropped my partisanship, a lot of ‘obvious’ bedrock concepts were actually silly or wrong.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  268. this game is out of your league.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:23 pm

    I have been rambling all day. Obviously I’m out of my depth. Fortunately it doesn’t a big brain to see that Trump’s gotta go.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  269. Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:58 pm

    Google “10 thinks I hate about jews” and then ask yourself if all these defenses that the Proud Boys aren’t necessarily racist are strong defenses. Trump really is in the wrong, and about no minor thing.

    Yep. That’s totally not you taking something by one person and applying it to a group of people. Luckily, you can see through the codes, hear the magic dog whistles, and you know what all those Proud Boys are really thinking.

    What’s funny about this is some people will agree with you that one persons rant represents the philosophy of a group but will listen to BLM founders say they are marxists and the group is founded on marxism, read their posted beliefs that are consistent with marxism, and watch them riot and loot while carrying signs proudly displaying marxists symbols and say BLM isn’t about violent marxism.

    frosty (f27e97)

  270. 271. Did you see him last night? Worse, did you see him today trying to walk? Multiple brain surgeries, rambling about his dead kid, his dead father… you may want his future for America.

    I don’t. And I’m only 12 years younger than him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  271. Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:28 pm

    That was for Frosty of course. I used to be Mr. Republican so I used to nod at how the EC protected the flyovers from politicians only caring about the cities. I really think the internet solved that. Who cares if a politician pays attention to your town? We go to rallies to show support, not to be persuaded.

    It’s funny how once I dropped my partisanship, a lot of ‘obvious’ bedrock concepts were actually silly or wrong.

    You’ve explained yourself why you’re obviously wrong about what the EC was originally designed for. It was never designed to protect flyovers from politicians. It was designed to protect different factions from each other. The internet doesn’t fix that, it makes it worse.

    If you think a US with the EC is on shaky ground the US with direct democracy would not exist. It wouldn’t have formed. It wouldn’t have survived the civil war. It wouldn’t survive into the future if it were abolished.

    frosty (f27e97)

  272. #255 and further back…
    I hope that’s true about the Telemundo sample (though it is the less malcontent-ish of the 2 Spanish channels)…

    otherwise this this thing would give me a lot of agita, talk about a portal to improper voting.

    urbanleftbehind (b8d3a4)

  273. DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:34 pm

    Did you see him last night? Worse, did you see him today trying to walk?

    The walking is sad. He’s got the old person shuffle. How is he supposed to be the leader of the free world? He should be enjoying a retirement. He’s calling a lid before noon most days. Is there some plan for the world post-2020 where nothing happens before 9am or after noon?

    frosty (f27e97)

  274. 275.

    Did you see him last night? Worse, did you see him today trying to walk? Multiple brain surgeries, rambling about his dead kid, his dead father… you may want his future for America.

    I don’t. And I’m only 12 years younger than him.
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:34 pm

    Yeah, I saw him. And I saw nothing to make me doubt he’ll live out his full ten year life expectancy and maybe then some. And what you or I or anyone else wants for America is neither relevant to nor an excuse for wishing the man into his grave, much less persisting and doubling down on it. You’ve now taken it from pathetic to obnoxious. You say you’re 65. If you have living parents, I hope nobody ever talks about them that way.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  275. @278. Did you see him babbling, ‘where’s my mask?’ and it was literally in his hands inside his prepared text folder he’d just closed.

    Of course it’s sad. And pathetic. He should have run in 2015.

    His ‘I am the Democratic Party’ cry is almost terrifying.

    He’s not. Harris is.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  276. @279. Then you need glasses an a hearing aid, ‘man’ … Here’s the deal: they’re still available under Obamacare.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  277. (I apologize to the people I am unintentionally about to make feel old).

    For those of us under 50 Dallas was our parents show, not ours. I was mostly a child and not allowed to watch it and not even my parents watched it, because they found it morally reprehensible. People currently in their 40s watched Beverly Hills 90210 and Melrose place as their nighttime soap and Heather Locklear was their villain for the Melrose place crew and there wasn’t really one for 90210 (kinda Kelly for a little, but no, not really). After that everything was Survivor and the Amazing Race and 15 different versions of Law and Order and/or CSI. Nightime soaps for adults mostly went out after the 80s. They weren’t the culture any more and people didn’t enjoy them. Nobody my age found JR to be interesting or watchable.

    Nic (896fdf)

  278. @279. Just buried the last one in May. When you get closer to the end than the beginning, perspectives and perceptions change, lurker. You see things others don’t. But will.

    So cheer up, fella: I’m now Number One on the runway. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  279. @282. But the character is timeless, Nic. And kids, you can enjoy him in all his devious glory on YouTube.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  280. @284 But why would I want to? My generation wasn’t on the rebound from any of the good-two shoes eras. Evil wasn’t seductive for us, we saw enough villains. Stake it through the heart, Buffy.

    Nic (896fdf)

  281. If you think a US with the EC is on shaky ground the US with direct democracy would not exist.

    Obviously our founders had to make the constitution tolerate, and in many ways, reward, the practice of slavery, with political power. I did not advocate driving my DeLorean to the Tea Party and learning them some morality. IF most voters say no to a guy, then the answer should actually be no. I don’t really feel I owe some complex argument why this is right.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  282. @285.Because you said it yourself: ‘I was not allowed to watch it and not even my parents watched it, because they found it morally reprehensible.

    That is everybody’s description of Trump.

    And Ewing was literally invited into America homes for 14 seasons. Americans love their ‘Bad Boys.’ Ali; McInroe…. Michael Jackson…

    And, of course, Reagan. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  283. Just buried the last one in May.

    Condolences.

    When you get closer to the end than the beginning, perspectives and perceptions change, lurker. You see things others don’t. But will.

    Thinking you see things that others don’t afflicts people of all ages.

    So cheer up, fella: I’m now Number One on the runway. 😉
    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/30/2020 @ 9:06 pm

    May you live to troll these threads with your obnoxious commentary for many decades.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  284. We’ve seen and heard him.

    Would you want Biden piloting the 767 you’re flying in? Or driving your kids’ school bus?
    Or performing heart surgery on you? Or the engineer of the Amtrak train you’re riding in? Or having the codes to ignite a thermonuclear holocaust?

    No.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  285. May you live to troll these threads with your obnoxious commentary for many decades.

    lurker (d8c5bc) — 9/30/2020 @ 9:24 pm

    Amen.

    Yep. That’s totally not you taking something by one person and applying it to a group of people. Luckily, you can see through the codes, hear the magic dog whistles, and you know what all those Proud Boys are really thinking.

    What’s funny about this is some people will agree with you that one persons rant represents the philosophy of a group but will listen to BLM founders say they are marxists and the group is founded on marxism, read their posted beliefs that are consistent with marxism, and watch them riot and loot while carrying signs proudly displaying marxists symbols and say BLM isn’t about violent marxism.

    frosty (f27e97) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:33 pm

    Frosty, do your homework. That wasn’t one random person. That is the founder of the Proud Boys explaining how much he hates a race of people, cheered by many Proud Boys.

    I don’t support the goofballs on the fringe left any more than I support the goofballs on the right.

    You need to learn about what the Proud Boys are. This is no joke. If you know what the Mike Ramos brigade is (radical left group in Austin, not associated with the family of Mike Ramos, a guy killed by APD), Proud Boys is very similar. Very amped up. Intended to shock, intimidate, inspire dumb people to get violent. This isn’t debate club. This is a country, where families will be harmed.

    Just listen to these guys who founded the Proud Boys, listen to what its new supporters from the past 24 hours are saying. Any defense you could make of them could be made of the KKK, and probably has been. Trump was deeply wrong to advocate they stand by on his behalf.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  286. @288. A personal attack is simply the tell of a lost argument, L. If you’d spent the 80s in NYC having Trump in your face 24/7, on trains, subways, tabloids, radio and TeeVee you’d be able to read him today easily.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  287. Would you want Biden piloting the 767 you’re flying in? Or driving your kids’ school bus?
    Or performing heart surgery on you? Or the engineer of the Amtrak train you’re riding in? Or having the codes to ignite a thermonuclear holocaust?

    He’s unfit for all of that. I hope he has excellent help and makes good decisions in an incredibly hard job he is not really up for. His success will be our success.

    Biden is the price, not the cure. I’m willing to pay.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  288. So many “Conservatives for Biden.” It’s orgasmic.

    Where were you all in 1988?????

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  289. A personal attack is simply the tell of a lost argument

    I don’t think you’re a troll. I think that was offered in humor.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  290. A B-list actor playing a multi-millionaire. (I don’t think we had a lot of billionaires yet. If any.) That’s Trump, I’ll concede that much.

    Tanny’s comment about Trump exuding machismo earlier made me smile, too. There was a female impersonator, Divine, who could play Trump now if he were still alive.

    nk (1d9030)

  291. @295. Reagan was a B-lister, too. And by Hollywood standards, not poor. And famously quipped you couldn’t do the president gig w/o being an actor.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  292. @292. The cost is too high. And besides, Trump is much more entertaining and fun than Biden’s ‘no miracle is coming’ kidney stone act.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  293. And a diamond and a chunk of coal are both carbon.

    nk (1d9030)

  294. @287 JR Eweing isn’t and never has been relevant to my life. I don’t find his type of character entertaining and, in fact, most of my generation hasn’t found his type of character entertaining. We like our villains satirical or redeemable or dead (or occasionally romantic). Reagan was just at the very front edge of my political perception. Mostly he was someone that other people either hero-worshiped or vilified. None of us thought greed was good. Culture changed. It moved on. The way you describe Trump’s appeal is a way that mostly appeals to people that he’s telling to FOAD.

    @293 SHAPE International High school, American division.

    Nic (896fdf)

  295. Trump is much more entertaining and fun than Biden’s ‘no miracle is coming’ kidney stone act.

    OK… this is accurate.

    I don’t think a miracle is actually coming though. I assure you, Trump will still be very interesting out of office.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  296. @298. They sell diamonds in Trump Tower today; they once mined coal near Scranton but Biden hasn’t lived there in 67 years. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  297. @299. Whether you realize it or not he actually is– his persona is POTUS.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  298. @302 You do keep maintaining it. I think your purported viewpoint is skewed.

    Nic (896fdf)

  299. I don’t think you’re a troll. I think that was offered in humor.
    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 9:36 pm

    Bingo

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  300. > Where were you all in 1988?????

    there were better options in 1988.

    it’s fascinating to me to watch trump supporters try and make trump opponents hate biden. biden is a milquetoast center-right politician, and always has been. i didn’t vote for him in the primary, and i’d prefer to be voting for a different candidate now.

    but he’s not Trump, and no matter how much I would prefer someone else, and no matter how much I am skeptical that it’s a good idea to have an octagenarian in the white house, y’all are nowhere near convincing me that four more years of Trump would be preferable to him.

    your attacks aren’t landing with us because we look at Trump, and what he’s done in the last four years, and how he is destabilizing over time, and want him *somewhere else as fast as possible*.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  301. From your comments over time I get the sense that you’ve got a blind spot related to racism. It causes you to make unsupportable connections and overbroad generalizations.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 9:33 pm

    Frosty, do your homework. That wasn’t one random person. That is the founder of the Proud Boys explaining how much he hates a race of people, cheered by many Proud Boys.

    This is not the same as saying all Proud Boys are racists or that it’s the basis of the organization in the same way as something like the KKK or BLM. You’re applying a rule to them that doesn’t seem to apply to BLM.

    Trump was deeply wrong to advocate they stand by on his behalf.

    This part of that blind spot. He absolutely did not say stand by “on his behalf”. This is something you’ve read into his comment. You can justify it by saying that’s just how he is or that’s just how the Proud Boys are without noticing the irony that this is just another way of saying “that’s how these people think”.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 9:20 pm

    Obviously our founders had to make the constitution tolerate, and in many ways, reward, the practice of slavery, with political power.

    It’s simply not true that representative democracy was a reward for slavery. You are taking one issue and applying it to the whole and you’re avoiding my other point. Even if it was then it doesn’t matter because we don’t have slavery anymore. Handcuffs also, in many ways, helped the practice of slavery. So, did logistics, accounting, etc. We don’t, or at least I don’t, advocate getting rid of those either. A historical argument tying the EC to slavery is not only wrong but irrelevant.

    IF most voters say no to a guy, then the answer should actually be no. I don’t really feel I owe some complex argument why this is right.

    We don’t live in a democracy. We live in a republic and the EC is more a part of that foundation than you seem to realize. Kill it and it’s better than even odds the whole thing comes apart within a decade. I think an argument against the EC needs to be a little more complex than it used to support slavery. This is part of the blind spot I mentioned. You’ve latched on to this idea about a past that even if true isn’t a current argument against the current EC because you’ve linked it to racism.

    frosty (f27e97)

  302. it’s fascinating to me to watch trump supporters try and make trump opponents hate biden.

    You’re right, it’s beyond reality. But I kinda get it. Most of the Trump fans here are just focused on bad things they left did. The magic of manipulation these days is that they can just pump the right triggering idea, such as rioting lefties killing a black retired cop, and Biden staff bailing out similar rioters, and suddenly the race is not about Trump’s toxicity. Suddenly the race is about keeping your family safe. It’s manipulative and even backwards, IMO, but I get it.

    90% of Trump voters and 90% of Biden voters want the same thing. We have put labels, personalities, and teams on the front of this idea that America can be fair and we can mind our own business, that people can get a second chance until they can’t, that we should all be treated equally. We want the same stuff abstractly, but we think wildly different things about who is in the way.

    Personally, I think Putin sees Americans like ants in a jar. He’s shaking the jar. We’re eating eachother because we think our problems must be caused by the other kind of ants.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  303. We don’t live in a democracy. We live in a republic and the EC is more a part of that foundation than you seem to realize.

    frosty (f27e97) — 9/30/2020 @ 11:09 pm

    Spare me this junior high crap. I’m not asking for direct democracy, and the USA is a democracy regardless of how many ACHTUALLY IT’S A REPUBLIC guys tell me it isn’t.

    You’ve latched on to this idea about a past that even if true isn’t a current argument against the current EC because you’ve linked it to racism.

    Not remotely what I said. I said every person’s vote should be equal. I rejected Tanny’s argument that there is some inherent value in states having the same weight because there is no such inherent value, but there is great value in the notion all persons are created equal. Any defense that the EC is our roots is dumb, because we do not practice slavery, the entire reason for all the weird compromises in our constitution. I already showed you ample basis for this historical information, only because you denied it being understandable anyone could say such a (very clearly true) thing.

    Kill it and it’s better than even odds the whole thing comes apart within a decade.

    I doubt it, but who cares? It is not the same world it was 200 years ago. So what if Texas or California or the east coast have their own values? But I really doubt the nation breaks apart if we all get a system of government more like the rest of the democratic world.

    There is really only one reason to fight so hard so that the candidate getting the most votes loses to the candidate America rejected.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  304. No disrespect intended, Frosty. I am basically arguing against myself 20 years ago here.

    But let’s cut through the crap. What we’re really discussing is whether or not each American’s vote is the same value. The idea that a “no” is better for our nation’s stability is an argument I don’t agree with.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  305. But by far the most revealing tell came from the biggest liar on that stage last night when the 47 year swamp creature told Americans ‘a government program would pay for itself.’

    That is precisely the reason Trump was elected. And likely will be again.

    Trump said he could erase the debt in eight years by negotiating better trade deals. (And then he lied about saying it.)
    He said he would offer a much better health-care policy at much lower cost. And that Mexico would pay for The Wall. And that we’re raking in cash from tariffs. etc.

    He has said that he loves debt.

    He tried to strong-arm pharmaceutical companies into financing pre-election bribes for senior citizens, but when they refused, he decided to pull the money out of thin air.

    People who have left the administration have spoken of the large number of insane Trump ideas that the staff did not implement. Mattis said he left when he was asked to do something that wasn’t just “stupid” but “felony stupid.”

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  306. @303. Watch it; Google the character. Hardly skewed; it fits.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  307. Eric Boehm argues that there should be more, not less, debates, because they will reveal to the American people the horrible choices the two parties have nominated.

    https://reason.com/2020/09/30/last-nights-debate-was-a-disaster-thats-exactly-why-there-should-be-more-of-them/

    I tend to agree with his position. The more the people see how badly the parties have served them, the better.

    I watched the entire debate last night, and it was cringeworthy. But what I watched on the news tonight was even more so. That would be Ted Cruz on Chris Cuomo. It left a pit in my stomach and a hole in my wallet.

    I supported Cruz, voted for him in the primaries, even donated $1,000 to his campaign. Four years later, he is unrecognizable as a conservative or a constitutionalist. I want my money back.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  308. Just watched the debate -carefully- for the third time.

    Biden was the first to start interrupting. Also lost count of how many times he chortled and said ‘here’s the deal’… he did it a lot. It’s hard to conclude- but upon the third review, Trump did actually edge out the win– but it was lost in the overall pie fight.

    And Trump was, for severa times on several issues, literally debating Wallace, who, upon this third viewing, lost control as moderator within the first five minutes. And yes, Biden was the more hostile and disrespectful. It’s hard to believe knowing Trump’s personality. Joe wasn’t very good w/answers either– if you pay attention to what he actually said.

    Wallace really did the country a disservice by failing to take a firm hand and actually moderate. It wasn’t so much Trump as it was Biden who threw the first pie. Trump threw three back at him, Wallace lost control and comedy gold was born.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  309. Can you imagine being a cop during a dem presidency.

    mg (8cbc69)

  310. @313, It’s not surprising that you were able to talk yourself into the position that you wanted to be correct all along.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  311. Yep. That’s totally not you taking something by one person and applying it to a group of people. Luckily, you can see through the codes, hear the magic dog whistles, and you know what all those Proud Boys are really thinking.

    What’s funny about this is some people will agree with you that one persons rant represents the philosophy of a group but will listen to BLM founders say they are marxists and the group is founded on marxism, read their posted beliefs that are consistent with marxism, and watch them riot and loot while carrying signs proudly displaying marxists symbols and say BLM isn’t about violent marxism.

    frosty (f27e97) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:33 pm

    Frostys right. Until someone shows a video of each and every proud boy saying “I AM RACIST” and then signing a document to that effect in front of a judge who is sitting on a real live unicorn you can’t possible know what they’re thinking. Even if you get that it’s 99% likely that they were being ironic.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  312. frosty (f27e97) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:33 pm

    will listen to BLM founders say they are marxists and the group is founded on marxism, read their posted beliefs that are consistent with marxism,

    I heard last week that they wiped their website of all the Marxism. And a number of other websites of other groups (more or less on the same side as Biden) have been moderated.

    and watch them riot and loot while carrying signs proudly displaying marxists symbols and say BLM isn’t about violent marxism.

    Talking about signs, someone told me that in the demonstrations in midtown Manhattan right after Trump was elected in 2016 (this was before any demonstrations turned violent or were tied to looting) somewhere near Trump Tower I think, he was disturbed by two groups of people.

    One was carrying a Palestinian sign or something (they had piggybacked onto this) and the other had something that resembled the rainbow flag, but had an additional symbol or something. He asked them what they were or what it was, and they explained that they for ending the prohibition on sex between adults and minors.

    That would be I guess LGTBQP.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  313. Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 9/30/2020 @ 5:07 pm

    How many times must President Trump condemn white supremacy before you guys stop saying he supports white supremacy?

    I think you got your answer in another comment. There are a number of people who will simply translate whatever Trump says into whatever they want because “they know what he really meant”.

    To the original question in the post; we learned that reality has broken the brains of a lot of people.

    frosty (f27e97) — 9/30/2020 @ 6:39 pm

    He couldn’t do it on TV in front of millions of people. He said he would. He tried. But couldn’t actually do it.
    Now he says he doesn’t know who the proud boys are. Which is unlikely, but if we assume he’s telling the truth that means he had no idea what he was talking about when he gave that answer.

    He did it a couple of years ago after his bungled response to Charlottesville. But then he spent 5 minutes making justifications for right wing violence.

    He seems to have a much harder time taking a clear stance about the alt-right/neo-nazi/KKK then Biden does about left wing violence.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  314. The Proud Boys are GOP-created astroturf. All the facts fit.

    Mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Russian agents, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, bull dykes, ass-kickers, sh!t-kickers, and method actors.

    nk (1d9030)

  315. Imagine trying to brief a president who behaved the way we saw Trump behave last night.

    The advisors would do well to take a lesson from Benjamin Disraeli, one of the most succesful British Prime Ministers.

    Queen Victora was also a self-centered, petulant person. So what did he do? He flattered her, and she then went along with what he wanted.

    “Everyone likes flattery; and when you come to Royalty you should lay it on with a trowel.”

    Trump advisors, like Disraeli, need to get a trowel.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  316. 17. Dave (1bb933) — 9/30/2020 @ 9:18 am

    His judgment on anyone and anything begins and ends with the question: do they praise me?

    Well, he att least started that way when asked about the QAnon stuff about sux weeks ago:

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4900672/user-clip-trump-qanon

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-press-briefing-august-19-2020

    Q During the pandemic, the QAnon movement has been — appears to be gaining a lot of followers. Can you talk about what you think about that and what you have to say to people who are following this movement right now?

    THE PRESIDENT: Well, I don’t know much about the movement, other than I understand they like me very much, which I appreciate, but I don’t know much about the movement. I have heard that it is gaining in popularity. And from what I hear, it’s — these are people that, when they watch the streets of Portland, when they watch what happened in New York City in just the last six or seven months — but this was starting even four years ago when I came here. Almost four years; can you believe it?

    These are people that don’t like seeing what’s going on in places like Portland and places like Chicago and New York and other cities and states. And I’ve heard these are people that love our country, and they just don’t like seeing it.

    So I don’t know, really, anything about it other than they do, supposedly, like me. And they also would like to see problems in these areas — like, especially the areas that we’re talking about — go away. Because there’s no reason the Democrats can’t run a city. And if they can’t, we will send in all of the federal — whether it’s troops or law enforcement, whatever they’d like — we’ll send them in. We’ll straighten out their problem in 24 hours or less.

    Okay?

    Q And, Mr. Presiddent, at the crux of the theory is this belief that you are secretly saving the world from this satanic cult of pedophiles and cannibals. Does that sound like something you are behind or a believer in?

    Donald J. Trump

    Well, I haven’t – I haven’t heard that. But is that supposed to be a bad thing or a good thing? I mean, you know, if I can help save the world from problems, I’m willing to do it. I’m willing to put myself out there.And we are, actually. We’re saving the world from a radical-left philosophy that will destroy this country. And when this country is gone, the rest of the world would follow. The rest of the world would follow. That’s the importance of this country.And when you look at some of the things that these people are saying, with “Defund the Police” and no borders, open borders – everybody just pour right into our country; no testing, no nothing. You know, you talk about testing – no testing. Mexico, as you know, has a very high rate of infection.The wall is now going to be, next week, 300 miles long. Our numbers are extraordinary on the border. Had that – and this is through luck, perhaps, more than talent, although the talent is getting built when one party refuses to allow it. You don’t hear talk about the wall anymore.

    The original QAnon, whoo claims to be someone in the bureacracy on the same side as Trump, is always predicting imminent victory for Trump in his campaign to stop the pedophiles and their helpers, but the failure of the predictions to come true doesn’t seem to stop it.

    And he, she they or it drops clues that are the kind of clues that are used to prove that Bacon write Shakespeare.

    Democrats like to warn that someone will commit a violent act because of that, like the person who killed the head of the Gambino crime family, but it may be more likely yo discourage people from involving themselves in the political campaign, since Trump is soon going to expose the Satan worshipping, baby eating, pedophile Democrats and bureaucrats.

    Oh, and John F. Kennedy Jr. is going to come out of hiding in Pennsylvania and endorse Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  317. The original QAnon, whoo claims to be someone in the bureacracy on the same side as Trump,

    Hmm. Could be. One such has been outed already. https://www.thedailybeast.com/redstate-covid-troll-streiff-is-actually-bill-crews-and-he-actually-works-for-dr-anthony-fauci

    nk (1d9030)

  318. 3. Patterico (115b1f) — 9/30/2020 @ 8:40 am

    Honestly, my main takeaway was disgust with China over their handling of the coronavirus. I knew it was bad but seeing the details was infuriating.

    That’s probably only half the story. Could Woodward, or his sources, know everything?

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  319. Biden was the first to start interrupting.

    Technically accurate, but misleading. Each candidate had an opening statement, followed by open discussion. The problem was the interrupting when it was the candidate’s turn to talk.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  320. 28. whembly — 9/30/2020 @ 9:44 am

    But, the only quibble I can see is that “stand by” part in his last response. That’s an obvious gaffe on his part.

    Yes, that was obviously the result of Trump having trouble with words.

    Both sides prefer to misinterpret gaffes as serious sentences. The Republicans did it with Biden;s repeated use (but not in this debate) of the word million instead of thousand.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  321. samizdat media, is dodgy sometimes, some of quanon is nuts, but compared with fusion flakes which had the chabad aiding the russians,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  322. This country has dispensed with Royalty, although some have apparently forgotten the fact.

    Leviticus (3246e9)

  323. @255

    Tanny @248-
    By a 2 to 1 margin Telemundo Breaks for Trump

    Click bait poll.

    Rip Murdock (631d7a) — 9/30/2020 @ 6:54 pm

    I know and I don’t care. My hispanic son-in-law and I had a good laugh about it. He says it could be true because everyone in his family respects machismo and he said that President Trump exudes machismo.

    Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:03 pm

    You know what… there’s something to that. Thanks for bringing that up.

    At first, I thought that poll was whacked, but I think you nailed it here.

    whembly (c30c83)

  324. 322. The name Q comes from the (totally imaginary) “Q” security clearance that Q supposedly has.

    Not from James Bond’s boss.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_(James_Bond)

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  325. I remembered a rollicking roman a clef with that title, before peter benchley wrote about sharks he was a white house correspondent, same difference in the kennedy and johnson era,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  326. More about who is, or was, QAnon

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon

    Although preceded by similar viral conspiracies such as Pizzagate,[8] the theory proper began with an October 2017 post on the anonymous imageboard 4chan by “Q”, who was presumably an American individual[9] but most likely has become a group of people.[10][11] Q claimed to have access to classified information involving the Trump administration and its opponents in the United States. NBC News found that three people took the original Q post and expanded it across multiple media platforms to build internet followings for profit. QAnon was preceded by several similar anonymous 4chan posters, such as FBIAnon, HLIAnon (High-Level Insider), CIAAnon, and WH Insider Anon.[12]

    Q has accused many liberal Hollywood actors, Democratic politicians, and high-ranking officials of being members of the cabal. Q also claimed that Trump feigned conspiracy with Russians to enlist Robert Mueller to join him in exposing the ring and preventing a coup d’état by Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and George Soros.[13][14][15] “Q” is a reference to the Q clearance used by the U.S. Department of Energy. QAnon believers commonly tag their social media posts with the hashtag #WWG1WGA, signifying the motto “Where We Go One, We Go All”.

    So I guess the Q clearance is not imaginary but has to do with nuclear weapons. (Nuclear weapons being under the control of the Department of Energy, not the Department of Defense. That;s because both pieces of what was, till about 1974, the Atomic Energy Commission were folded into the Department of Energy\

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  327. the story is stranger than that, sammeh, steele who worked for a russian oligarch, somewhat like sidney reilly who worked with basil zaharoff, hires a suspected russian agent, igor danchenko, to spin these stories from his drinking buddies, which imitates graham greene’s agent wormwold and his little circle,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  328. 57. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/30/2020 @ 10:32 am

    Trump is going to lose Utah the way he is going. It’s not going to be close.

    They don’t like him in Utah, both because of his general character and because of his immigration policy, But they also don’t like voting for Democrats.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  329. mueller’s firm represented deutsch bank, which was defrauded by kolomoisky’s burisma,took money from the third largest money launderer, citigroup’s banamex, and comey for the hsbc the second largest money laundered, which scavenged the remains of arthur andersen,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  330. 332. bolivar de gris (7404b5) — 10/1/2020 @ 7:15 am

    the story is stranger than that, sammeh, steele who worked for a russian oligarch, somewhat like sidney reilly who worked with basil zaharoff, hires a suspected russian agent, igor danchenko, to spin these stories from his drinking buddies, which imitates graham greene’s agent wormwold and his little circle,

    Well, no.

    That’s what Igor Danchenko told the FBI, But he probably got the stories from a Russian government source.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  331. @256

    But just take stock for a second. I imagine everyone here tries to be a good person. Why should one person have less of a say than another person in elections?

    Why aren’t we all equal when we vote?

    I think republicans who recognize the huge benefits of Bush instead of Gore, and I guess Trump instead of Hillary if they still like that result, should put that aside and just think about whether this is right or wrong.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 7:04 pm

    We’re not a full fledged democracy.

    We have to recognized that we are essentially 50 autonomous nation-state banded together to create one nation.

    I posted earlier that it was the Democratic party who has historically benefited from the EC system when comparing to popular vote data.

    Fun Fact: No one in 2016 got the majority of the vote. Yes, that’s right, HRC only had 48.2% of the total votes (Trump got 46.1%).

    Put it another way. There were MORE votes FOR the not-HRC(51.8%) than for HRC(48.2%).

    The EC has its place and it’s a rule that every understands how it’s played.

    whembly (c30c83)

  332. He seems to have a much harder time taking a clear stance about the alt-right/neo-nazi/KKK then Biden does about left wing violence.

    BS. Biden can’t even take a stance against his staff bailing out rioters.

    beer ‘n pretzels (bcafbd)

  333. The general ticket electorsl college system gives everyone an unfair advantage.

    It nets out as a disadvantage, compared to the popular vote, to the candidate whose vote is more concentrated geographically, even when large areas are considered. California is so Democratic that a proportionately smaller number of Republican votes are subsumed by it than in other states; therefore Hillary Rodham Clinton won the popular vote in spite of grabbing 55 Electoral votes at one go.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  334. I might finally read The Mueller Report after all.

    nk (1d9030)

  335. He seems to have a much harder time taking a clear stance about the alt-right/neo-nazi/KKK then Biden does about left wing violence.

    BS. Biden can’t even take a stance against his staff bailing out rioters.

    beer ‘n pretzels (bcafbd) — 10/1/2020 @ 7:31 am

    that’s a different question. btw, were you aware the right to a reasonable bail is fundamental and that the purpose of bail is to ensure the accused shows up for trial?

    Amendment VIII
    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    Time123 (b4d075)

  336. We have to recognized that we are essentially 50 autonomous nation-state banded together to create one nation.

    This was true at the founding for the initial colonies. At this point we’re 1 nation.

    Time123 (b4d075)

  337. it’s unentertaining fiction, but you paid for it,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  338. @342<

    blockquote> We have to recognized that we are essentially 50 autonomous nation-state banded together to create one nation.

    This was true at the founding for the initial colonies. At this point we’re 1 nation.

    Time123 (b4d075) — 10/1/2020 @ 7:42 am
    We are 1 nation, with 50 semi-autonomous states.

    The collective values and desires of folks living in Alabama can (and are!) different than those in California.

    Hence why we live in a Constitutional Republic, with a Representative Democracy governance.

    whembly (c30c83)

  339. that’s a different question. btw, were you aware the right to a reasonable bail is fundamental and that the purpose of bail is to ensure the accused shows up for trial?

    It’s a different question if you make it a different question, and avoid the exact question. Kind of like defending the Proud Boys by making it about a right to free speech.

    If Trump staff bailed out Proud Boys, you’d deflect with a “right to bail” for sure.

    beer ‘n pretzels (bcafbd)

  340. https://twitter.com/brian_schnee/status/1311488168026284032
    Well… that complicates the narrative…

    whembly (c30c83)

  341. and the dnc is getting a 12.5% cut from thousand currents

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  342. mueller’s firm represented deutsch bank

    And Trump borrowed more than $2B from them.

    Dave (1bb933)

  343. Narciso, Biden didn’t have a debate meltdown. It’s hilarious sometimes the things people say. Biden could have specifically tried to spaz out and there wouldn’t have been a way with Trump refusing to let Biden make a mistake. When the whole nation cheers that Biden told Trump to shut up, that really shows Trump is stupid. I’ve never seen a child debate less effectively. It was really like a toddler.

    The more I think about it, I guess Trump didn’t study so thought if he was super aggressive, it would cause Biden to have a stutter problem, the way Paul suggested. But obviously that didn’t work so Trump had nowhere to go but to keep trying a failing strategy, while Biden shifted to mocking Trump’s failing efforts.

    That your link is actually expressing anger that Biden was bullying Trump is super weird. It’s like the bully’s idiot parent crying that the bully got detention. It’s just lying.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  344. 305. We know where Plagiarist JoeyBee was in 1988: not living in Scranton, Pennsylvania.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  345. If Trump staff bailed out Proud Boys, you’d deflect with a “right to bail” for sure.

    Yes, I think Time123 would, and I know that I would, too. We’re not Trumpkins. Actually, since I’m pretty sure that they are Trump’s astroturf, I’m sure he already has “staff” standing back and standing by to bail them out.

    nk (1d9030)

  346. In 2016 Trump promised to pay not only bail but also legal fees for any of his supporters who “beat the crap out of” opposing demonstrators.

    Dave (1bb933)

  347. he went after coney barrett in that first round, like he understudied under soviet tool ted kennedy to go after robert bork,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  348. @350. Narciso, Biden didn’t have a debate meltdown.

    Actually, if you watch and listen to the debate carefully– in fact, Biden was brain-farting all over himself:

    ‘Here’s the deal’ said times 10 to the 23rd power; ‘clown’… ‘quit yapping and shut up’– ‘my son, my son, my son…’… ‘I won’t answer because if I do my answer will become the issue’… ‘I m the Democratic Party today’… and the crowning line: ‘my program will pay for itself.’

    Trump’s mistake was not throttling back and letting the ol’guy ramble himself into complete implosion.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  349. BS. Biden can’t even take a stance against his staff bailing out rioters.

    beer ‘n pretzels (bcafbd) — 10/1/2020 @ 7:31 am

    Time123 and nk have a point here.

    L: Biden didn’t have a chance to say a thing in the debate, because Trump was heckling him and the moderator like an idiot, and wouldn’t just shut up for two seconds

    R: But Biden wouldn’t have taken a stance against bailing out rioters if he could have, so this is fake but accurate

    L: how do you even know that?

    R: because the hoop we’re demanding Biden jump through is that he condemn bail, which is a constitutional right, so there’s no plausible way Biden can satisfy the test, and we think that’s clever. We’re standing back and standing by, Mr President Sir!

    Dustin (4237e0)

  350. Actually, if you watch and listen to the debate carefully– in fact, Biden was brain-farting all over himself:

    I bet you’re right. But I did not watch carefully because a baboon was throwing poop at the camera the whole time. Imagine if you’re right. How stupid does that make Trump?

    Dustin (4237e0)

  351. @358. You’d bet and win. But I wouldn’t encourage you to try to watch it again. Three times was enough self-torture for me. Seriously- it was painful to pick through but if you listen- it was just a bunch of fragmented lines spiced up with brain-farted insults. You can get that watching Caddyshack — and it has a plot.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  352. @358. The ‘stupid fella’ was Zookeeper Wallace who couldn’t control the animals in his care.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  353. It’s going to be an entertaining four years of Biden goofing up, DCSCA, and Trump on the sidelines rooting for our nation’s decline. I am sure we’ll have a recovery that they will credit Biden for (for no reason).

    Something about Biden makes me worry we will end up in a real war. This isn’t a guy who wants the title. He’s been dreaming of making a difference in this office for over 700 years and mostly regarding foreign policy. Invest in Lockheed.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  354. Dustin (4237e0) — 9/30/2020 @ 11:19 pm

    Spare me this junior high crap.

    That’s an ironic change of direction from your previous comment about not needing to provide a complex argument.

    because we do not practice slavery, the entire reason for all the weird compromises in our constitution. I already showed you ample basis for this historical information, only because you denied it being understandable anyone could say such a (very clearly true) thing.

    This is simply not true. I’ve said this before and you’ve avoided responding. Even without slavery the EC would have happened. It was a compromise between states with high populations and states with low populations. There was a correlation between population and slaveholding but that is not causation. This argument that the whole system is flawed because of the “original sin” is left wing propoganda and your entire argument rests on that.

    So what if Texas or California or the east coast have their own values?

    As long as the people of TX, CA, or NY couldn’t impose their values on the rest of the country I’d agree with you. I live in a state where the electricity is reliable and we’ve got a great local environment. If we do what you describe more of the country looks like CA and NY and I’m not on board with that.

    There is really only one reason to fight so hard so that the candidate getting the most votes loses to the candidate America rejected.

    I just gave you a reason. I don’t want more oligarchy and CA/NY rules. And the flip side of this is just as true. The EC only comes up when D’s lose an election and the true believers are generally railing against the system, i.e. they can’t impose their values on other people.

    frosty (f27e97)

  355. Frosty, I think I agree with you.

    The 3/5 compromise was done because the slave states wanted to count slaves as their population for the purposes of calculating the number of reps. The free states didn’t want to count slaves. So…slaves count as 3/5. It’s a vile compromise.

    The EC was put in place to give more power to smaller states with a lower population and deal with the communication issues of the time. Slavery and the 3/5 compromise play into it. But this would likely happened without that.

    Time123 (b4d075)

  356. Time123 (d1bf33) — 10/1/2020 @ 6:11 am

    Frostys right. Until someone shows a video of each and every proud boy saying “I AM RACIST” and then signing a document to that effect in front of a judge who is sitting on a real live unicorn you can’t possible know what they’re thinking. Even if you get that it’s 99% likely that they were being ironic.

    This isn’t an honest version of my point. It is, however, fairly close to your view on BLM. I suspect you would require a real live red unicorn.

    There’s a difference between what some people who join an organization believe and what the organization stands for. There have been a lot of pedophiles in the Boy Scouts and within Churces (both Catholic and otherwise). There’s a structural reason for that but it doesn’t mean those organizations are founded on pedophilia like NAMBLA.

    frosty (f27e97)

  357. @361. Four years? He’s a McCain Redux. Be prepared for a President Harris I it goes your way: he’ll be dead within 24 months.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  358. ^I = if

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  359. @357, did they try to ask Biden about his staff providing bail? I didn’t see that, but missed some of the start. I did see him say a few times that Violence and rioting weren’t peaceful protest and people who did that should be arrested. He didn’t equivocate, justify their lawlessness or offer excuses. Also saw him say law and order were important.

    Time123 (b4d075)

  360. Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 10/1/2020 @ 6:12 am

    He asked them what they were or what it was, and they explained that they for ending the prohibition on sex between adults and minors.

    That would be I guess LGTBQP.

    Yep. This is a thing. But you’ll be told it right-wing propoganda even when after it shows up for a prop vote in CA.

    frosty (f27e97)

  361. did they try to ask Biden about his staff providing bail?

    Of course not. Who in the media isn’t a hypocrite?

    beer ‘n pretzels (0b60f3)

  362. Frosty is arguing that residents of large states should be second class citizens whose votes count less than his. So I think we really need to establish exactly how much less.

    Would 3/5’s be OK Frosty?

    Dave (1bb933)

  363. @358. The ‘stupid fella’ was Zookeeper Wallace who couldn’t control the animals in his care.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/1/2020 @ 8:36 am

    He signed up for the task, so fair is fair, he did not do the task. But I don’t know what he was supposed to do. I think cutting the mike sounds simple but isn’t.

    Nevertheless, Trump can’t defend his poor strategy by saying Wallace should have stopped Trump.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  364. @364, I was making fun of your credulity WRT to proud boys. What is you think I won’t admit about BLM? I view them as motivated to reduce the use of force by police against minorities and increase accountability for LEO when mistakes are made. I think they’re mostly non-violent but tolerate the presence of lefty’s who are violent at their events. I think they don’t do enough separate the violent elements of their allies. Basically they tolerate Antifa.

    There’s a difference between what some people who join an organization believe and what the organization stands for. There have been a lot of pedophiles in the Boy Scouts and within Churces (both Catholic and otherwise). There’s a structural reason for that but it doesn’t mean those organizations are founded on pedophilia like NAMBLA.

    I agree with this, but I don’t think it applies to the proud boys.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  365. it was founded by a terrorist, fronted by three maoists, who are fans of hugo chavez,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  366. Would that be Milo Yiannopoulos? He’s a Trump supporter who has advocated for sex between grown men and 13-year old boys. Jeffrey Epstein, a guest at Mar-a-Lago? Ghislaine Maxwell, whom Trump wished well? When it comes to sexual perversion, Trump wins the gold and Biden is not even in the running.

    nk (1d9030)

  367. @370

    Frosty is arguing that residents of large states should be second class citizens whose votes count less than his. So I think we really need to establish exactly how much less.

    Would 3/5’s be OK Frosty?

    Dave (1bb933) — 10/1/2020 @ 8:54 am

    That’s the wrong way to frame this.

    Out system isn’t a popular vote for President.

    whembly (c30c83)

  368. @367. Maybe you should have seen Biden ask, ‘where is my mask?’ when it was literally in his hands, in the prepared remarks folder he just closed and taken off a lectern.

    Frightening behavior for a potential POTUS.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  369. That’s an ironic change of direction from your previous comment about not needing to provide a complex argument.

    No it’s not. “Actually we’re not a democracy” as a retort when I say each vote should be equal is, with all due respect, not a worthwhile argument.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  370. You claimed my view was so outlandish it couldn’t be supported, and mocked me saying I should do a little research. I provided several thousand pages of material that the EC was a pro-slavery power grab, among many aspects of our constitution. You are free to differ. We can’t get into Thomas Jefferson’s head. But my view was totally reasonable.

    This need to ‘ironic!!!!’ ‘actually not a democracy!!!!’ that is just junior high debate theater. It’s so tiresome to muddy the issue and filibuster.

    You don’t think all votes should be counted the same. I suspect it’s because you realize this favors Team R and you’re on Team R. You have not provided a good reason (it’s the glue that holds our crumbling republic together, is simply absurd if you read the headlines these days, since there is no such glue).

    Your vote and my vote should count the same. The real problem is that he federal government is too powerful over too many different perspectives, and a 50 state confederation would be more pleasant. You don’t want the cities to have power over you, and like the EC only because, ad hoc, it gives you that.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  371. Your vote and my vote should count the same.

    They say in Chicago your vote counts a lot more. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  372. That’s the wrong way to frame this.

    Out system isn’t a popular vote for President.

    whembly (c30c83) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:03 am

    You aren’t the authority on how to frame right and wrong. The American voter never wanted Trump to be the president. We rejected him by millions. It is not ‘wrong’ to frame things that way. It’s common sense that happens to go against your team.

    And the worse it gets (And this is truly extremely bad) the worse the anger, the more rioting, the more frustration. Trump highlights it because he makes no effort to soften the blow, but if people realize their vote was overridden by slavery era nonsense, and see the ballot box as under fire in other ways, that definitely makes the anger on the street worse.

    The correction is coming. The constitution will change. It would have been better to just go with basic principles long ago. It would have been even better to abolish slavery much earlier in our history, or recognize that the left actually does have some points on this stuff. Most of us see the worst on the other side’s arguments, the outraged clickbait blog posts on instapundit or Daily Kos, instead of seeing the common ground. That’s lucrative, but anti-American on a level even Bill Ayers didn’t manage.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  373. frosty, whembly, you are both smart, you love your country. Try to see this issue without seeing the other team as a problem, as a threat to the country that you have to fight. Just make it an academic exercise where the two parties are mostly the same (😬).

    Dustin (4237e0)

  374. @381

    That’s the wrong way to frame this.

    Out system isn’t a popular vote for President.

    whembly (c30c83) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:03 am

    You aren’t the authority on how to frame right and wrong.

    You are largely ignoring how the system works.

    The American voter never wanted Trump to be the president.

    According to the EC…they did.

    We rejected him by millions.

    And?

    The MAJORITY of American voted AGAINST Hillary Clinton.

    Another fun fact: Hillary Clinton was the minority in 37 states. She only won the majority of votes in 13 states.

    We are the United StateS of America. Not a United STATE of America.

    It is not ‘wrong’ to frame things that way. It’s common sense that happens to go against your team.

    There’s no “team” here. It’s merely acknowledge how the EC system works today.

    And the worse it gets (And this is truly extremely bad) the worse the anger, the more rioting, the more frustration.

    That’s an indictment of the poor civic education of our country.

    Trump highlights it because he makes no effort to soften the blow, but if people realize their vote was overridden by slavery era nonsense, and see the ballot box as under fire in other ways, that definitely makes the anger on the street worse.

    I disagree. The left is going to be mad no matter what.

    The correction is coming. The constitution will change. It would have been better to just go with basic principles long ago.

    Good luck with that.

    Seriously, amending the Constitution is a tall order. As it should be.

    It would have been even better to abolish slavery much earlier in our history, or recognize that the left actually does have some points on this stuff. Most of us see the worst on the other side’s arguments, the outraged clickbait blog posts on instapundit or Daily Kos, instead of seeing the common ground. That’s lucrative, but anti-American on a level even Bill Ayers didn’t manage.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:18 am

    No. The left doesn’t have “some points on this stuff”.

    The left has utterly lost their F’n minds.

    The correction must be on their end to truly recognize how the system works. That means:
    a) recognize when some policy ideas are impossible and drop it
    and
    b) moderate their policies so that they garner widespread support for their candidates

    whembly (c30c83)

  375. @381

    frosty, whembly, you are both smart, you love your country. Try to see this issue without seeing the other team as a problem, as a threat to the country that you have to fight. Just make it an academic exercise where the two parties are mostly the same (😬).

    Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:21 am

    No.

    The two parties are NOT mostly the same.

    The sh!tstorm of the Kavanaugh hearing and the pile-on of that Covington kid broke me. The dirty tactics shows that the left will use whatever power they have to push their narrative and agendas.

    I know I’m supposed to be “the bigger man” extend some grace towards the insane left, but God forgive I cannot.

    I don’t want them anywhere near power.

    whembly (c30c83)

  376. I know I’m supposed to be “the bigger man” extend some grace towards the insane left, but God forgive I cannot.

    I don’t want them anywhere near power.

    I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I have the same feelings about Donald Trump. It’s a problem.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  377. Nevertrumpers should readily admit they are willing to subject the nation to all the mistakes Biden will make, the lurch left in the administration’s little gears, the lois lerner problem, and of course, Harris ascending rapidly and often surprisingly.

    I am willing to do that, but I don’t have a problem with people who aren’t.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  378. No.

    The two parties are NOT mostly the same.

    Academic exercise, to discuss the principle that your vote and my vote should be equal, because equality before the law is the central tenet to the ethics of our country, and equality in result is actually the central tenet of the left. You have to get away from this idea we are desperately saving the nation from the urgent threat of instant extinction if the democrats win dog catcher this year, to discuss this stuff.

    If you can’t, so be it, but then you’re not really making an argument.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  379. Trump requires food aid boxes to come with a letter from him

    The Agriculture Department last week began mandating that millions of boxes of surplus food for needy families include a letter from President Donald Trump claiming credit for the program.

    The USDA’s $4 billion Farmers to Families Food Box Program has distributed more than 100 million boxes to those in need since May, with the aim of redirecting meat, dairy and produce that might normally go to restaurants and other food-service businesses. But organizations handing out the aid complain the program is now being used to bolster Trump’s image a month before a high-stakes election — and some even have refused to distribute them.
    ……
    Thy vanity has no bounds…..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  380. One of the things that the electoral college does, in its current form, is distort the popular vote. In a state like CA, where a statewide Democrat candidate will win handily, opposition voters are demoralized and do not go to the polls.

    Turnout among registered Democrats is substantially higher than among registered Republicans, and this extends to leaners as well. In California, with 1/8th of the US population voting under a unit rule, this means that MILLIONS of opposition votes are suppressed by the expectation of defeat. This extends down-ballot and to propositions with recursive effect.

    California is too large a state. Not only is the Senate representation unfair but the control of 40 million people by a single corrupt machine is bad all around.

    California naturally divides into 5 states. The north (the self-proclaimed “Jefferson”), the Progressive coast (Mendocino to Monterrey, plus SanapaNoma and the Silicon Valley), the central Valley and east to the border, Los Angeles county alone, and the rest of southern Cal (SLO, Kern, San Berdoo on down). Two red, two blue and a toss-up.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  381. Turnout among registered Democrats is substantially higher than among registered Republicans, and this extends to leaners as well. In California, with 1/8th of the US population voting under a unit rule, this means that MILLIONS of opposition votes are suppressed by the expectation of defeat. This extends down-ballot and to propositions with recursive effect.

    That is really interesting.

    It would be better if people saw the local and state stuff as more important than the big prize election this year. And local policies should have a bigger impact on our lives than federal ones, local leaders should be people we have a better understanding of than our distant federal ones.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  382. There is a story in politics, commonly attributed to Lyndon B. Johnson, about how LBJ wanted to circulate a rumor attacking his opponent in a Texas election. Johnson, it’s said, wanted to spread the story that his opponent liked to have sex with barnyard animals. One of LBJ’s aides said, “We can’t prove he’s a pig f—-r.”

    “I know that,” replied Johnson. “I just want to hear him deny it.”

    I think the constant demands on Trump to deny he is racist fall into this category. Same for questions about his taxes.

    Biden brought up the Proud Boys, but they’ve got more Jews, Pacific Islanders and Blacks than you’d expect from racist organization.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  383. That’s the wrong way to frame this.

    Out system isn’t a popular vote for President.

    “Our system” exists to serve the people, not the other way around.

    I defended the EC for decades. And I recognize that it has some desirable features. But I don’t think minority rule (where the winner is not the highest vote-getter) is sustainable or defensible as a regular feature of American politics.

    If we’re lucky, there won’t be another “split decision” for a long time.

    But you may have noticed that we haven’t been so lucky lately…

    Dave (1bb933)

  384. Biden Lead Looks Firmer as Midwest Moves His Way
    ……
    With a stable national lead and a bevy of polling showing him running significantly better with northern white voters than Hillary Clinton performed four years ago, Joe Biden appears to be turning back the clock a bit on the United States’ political transformation.

    Namely, after Clinton hemorrhaged white voters in northern small town and rural areas in 2016, Biden appears to be bringing some of those voters back into the Democratic fold while also improving on Clinton’s margins with white suburbanites. If this pattern holds in the actual results, it could pay major dividends for Biden in the Great Lakes region, where American presidential elections are so often won and lost and where the electorates in the competitive states are whiter than the nation as a whole.

    ……We are moving Minnesota from Leans Democratic to Likely Democratic. We are also moving its neighbor, Wisconsin — the decisive state in the 2016 presidential election — from Toss-up to Leans Democratic. And, finally, we’re moving Iowa and Ohio, both of which voted for Donald Trump by margins approaching double digits in 2016, from Leans Republican to Toss-up.
    …..
    The changes in Iowa and Ohio come both because of the broad improvements Biden has made with white voters in many different places and also because of more recent polling showing the presidential race very competitive in each state……

    In Iowa, the tell may have been that Sen. Joni Ernst (R-IA) has been locked in a very competitive contest with businesswoman Theresa Greenfield (D), and it seems like the presidential race is not much different (though Trump typically polls a little better than Ernst).

    Meanwhile, Biden’s lead in Wisconsin has been as good or even better than his lead in Michigan and Pennsylvania, two states we’ve had in the Leans Democratic column since June (Pennsylvania) or since we debuted our Electoral College ratings last year (Michigan). Biden’s leads are in the five-to-seven point range in all three states. Minnesota voted slightly more Democratic than these states in 2016, and the president’s bid to flip the state does not appear to be succeeding. We think it merits being in a less competitive category than the Michigan-Pennsylvania-Wisconsin group: If Minnesota flips, something will have gone seriously wrong for Biden, and Trump would almost certainly be winning a second term.
    …….
    We may also be compelled to move Texas and especially Georgia to Toss-up sooner rather than later. At the very least, these states are consistently closer in polls than 2016’s decisive trio of Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. …..

    All told, the president continues to need a significant shift in the numbers — or an even bigger polling error than we saw in 2016 — to bring this race back into true Toss-up territory. …..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  385. Biden brought up the Proud Boys, but they’ve got more Jews, Pacific Islanders and Blacks than you’d expect from racist organization.

    steveg (43b7a5) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:58 am

    No SteveG, they don’t. Maybe Russian spam on facebook tells people that they do, but the founder of Proud Boys is cheered by the Proud Boys for his writings, such as Ten Things I Hate About Jews. You’ll see a few tokens at the front of photo ops, I guess, but just look for yourself. Proud Boys are white. This notion that these organizations are really just black and whites working together is an aged meme. The KKK has also denied it is racist. We can employ common sense that the Proud Boys are in fact explicitly violent in goals. The Proud Boys are bad guys and it is very reasonable to specifically ask Trump to repudiate them.

    I think the constant demands on Trump to deny he is racist fall into this category [how ugly and awkward it is to deny something bad]. Same for questions about his taxes.

    We saw Trump’s taxes. We were right all along. Hillary said Trump doesn’t pay them. Trump said he pays more than the rest of us. The taxes show Trump was simply lying about it, and in fact if you take them at face value, Trump is a huge loser in business, totally unfit to manage anything, having such colossal failures. They asked Biden to repudiate his fringe and he simply did so.

    The KKK endorsed Trump repeatedly. Racism is an issue we’re all thinking about this year. It is not even a tough question to ask the president to discuss the issue. Is the left salivating at Trump having to own the worst on his side? Sure. OF course. And you see Trump do the same. Suddenly Biden is responsible for every riot, and suddenly the riots are a Trump campaign boon.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  386. @386

    No.

    The two parties are NOT mostly the same.

    Academic exercise, to discuss the principle that your vote and my vote should be equal, because equality before the law is the central tenet to the ethics of our country, and equality in result is actually the central tenet of the left.

    Academic exercise: We have a country that purposely has democratic representation and non-democratic representation elections for myriad of reasons.

    I feel like you’re purposely ignoring the idea, that our founders explicitly explored, how caustic elections would be pitting populous states vs rural states.

    What we have is a system of compromise that was needed then, and still needed today for our nation’s success.

    The House of Representative (and Senate via 17th amendment) popularly elected by the respective states and congressional districts.

    In contrast, for President we vote for electors by STATE. The State has a stake in out republic (which was neutered a bit by the 17th amendment). I’m also on record in wanting to repeal the 17th amendment so that the State’s legislature elects the Senate.

    You have to get away from this idea we are desperately saving the nation from the urgent threat of instant extinction if the democrats win dog catcher this year, to discuss this stuff.

    If you can’t, so be it, but then you’re not really making an argument.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:43 am

    I *am* making that argument. F the Democrats right now.

    whembly (c30c83)

  387. I think the constant demands on Trump to deny he is racist fall into this category [how ugly and awkward it is to deny something bad]. Same for questions about his taxes.

    Maybe he could put an end to these demands if he stopped offering rhetorical support for these Alt-Right clowns.

    He’s far harsher to his own appointees then he’s ever been Richard Spencer/David Duke/etc

    Time123 (b4d075)

  388. https://twitter.com/DDDX0_/status/1311663358588841984

    This is the Proud Boys founder. This shock stuff is what these folks are following. This is why Trump got his start with birther stuff.

    It is theoretically possible for me to praise Adolf Hitler or David Duke all day, march in his organization with a rifle, for good reasons. But only theoretically. In reality, let’s call Proud Boys what we all know they are.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  389. I *am* making that argument. F the Democrats right now.

    whembly (c30c83) — 10/1/2020 @ 10:27 am

    You aren’t making an argument about the EC. If your argument for why one vote should count more than another is that you just hate democrats and need a particular result, this is just not an ethical argument. I’m not trying to troll you. Take the democrats and republicans out of it. Make it Skittles v M&Ms if you need to.

    Or don’t. This idea that Hillary and Schumer’s huge donor and fan is totally distinct from them is for suckers.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  390. My 396 link is not safe for work and has the Proud Boys founder correcting himself for calling Obama a monkey because Obama is actually a N____.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  391. I *am* making that argument. F the Democrats right now.

    whembly (c30c83) — 10/1/2020 @ 10:27 am

    You aren’t making an argument about the EC. If your argument for why one vote should count more than another is that you just hate democrats and need a particular result, this is just not an ethical argument. I’m not trying to troll you. Take the democrats and republicans out of it. Make it Skittles v M&Ms if you need to.

    Or don’t. This idea that Hillary and Schumer’s huge donor and fan is totally distinct from them is for suckers.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 10:36 am

    I’ve made numerous posts defending the EC, particularly how it mutes the impact between populous states vs smaller states.

    Consider this: Outside California, Trump outdistanced Hillary by 1.41 million votes, 47.8% to 46.6%.

    whembly (c30c83)

  392. It turns out that Biden has been a bully in past debates.

    About which: it is hardly a news flash that Trump can be a bully. But there may be a method to his seeming madness. Remember how Biden manhandled Paul Ryan in the 2012 debate by constantly interrupting and ridiculing Ryan? Ryan’s mistake was that he came prepared to debate policy ideas—silly wonk that he is—while Biden wanted to make Ryan look young and inexperienced. And he was successful at doing that with Ryan. Trump wasn’t about to let that happen, but along the way he did induce Biden into making several mistakes, such as refusing to answer about court packing, and getting Biden to back away from the Green New Deal. And ask yourself a simple question: who looked like the stronger person on that stage? That isn’t a close call.

    Observations

    It seems the number of the commenters here have the gift of mind reading.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/1/2020 @ 12:18 am

    Three times! You are a far braver person than I am. Thank you.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  393. The pilgrims arrested slave traders when they came to shore and freed the slaves they had on their ship.

    Quakers in Pennsylvania outlawed slavery and the king overturned it. That was one of the reasons we decided to separate from England and came out with the Declaration of Independence.

    Washington owned slaves yet he was an abolitionist and was only legally able to free his slaves upon his death.

    Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, yet when he became a senator of the state of Virginia he proposed the law to outlaw slavery. He did the same thing when he became a United States senator. Unfortunately, in both cases he was overturned.

    Dustin, I agree we should’ve outlawed slavery sooner. However we were the second nation in the world to outlaw slavery. Don’t we get any credit for that?

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  394. Consider this: Outside California, Trump outdistanced Hillary by 1.41 million votes, 47.8% to 46.6%.

    whembly (c30c83) — 10/1/2020 @ 10:45 am

    Yeah, the left would like the United States to be controlled by California since they are doing such a good job. I live here and I can say they’re doing a horrible job.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  395. The Electoral College system saves us from worrying about this mess in New York.

    https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2020/09/30/rochester-printer-sent-out-100-000-misprinted-ballots-new-york-city/3584904001

    This tends to happen more in places dominated by one party.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  396. Dustin, I agree we should’ve outlawed slavery sooner. However we were the second nation in the world to outlaw slavery. Don’t we get any credit for that?

    Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 10/1/2020 @ 11:16 am

    We were far from the first. We banned the trans Atlantic slave trade long before we ended slavery because our local slave owners didn’t want the competition.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  397. Time123. I didn’t say that we were the first nation to abolish slavery. I said we were the second nation to abolish slavery. “We were far from the first” gives the impression that I said we were the first nation to abolish slavery and I didn’t. Please do not confuse the abolition of slavery with the abolition of the slave trade which we also did before abolishing slavery.

    It’s crap like this it made me want to take an almost 5 year hiatus from commenting on this site. That and the several people who no matter how many facts you would give them would not acknowledge the facts. They would just say that your facts are wrong without any research. Or give you links to left-wing sites that have been debunked. At least I take time to research what people tell me if I don’t know the answer. I try extremely hard to give links to center left sites because I know that if I use a “right wing“ site that it will be considered. Not because the facts are wrong, but because it is considered a “right wing“ site.

    I’m sorry you got the brunt of this. It’s just frosts my socks.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  398. Tanny, your general complaints are things that would bother me. I should have said “we were far from the 2nd country to abolish slavery.” I typed first by mistake. If you check out the link you find Sweden was actually 2nd in 1813. Per that list Brazil was the only country that waited longer then we did.

    1811 – Spain abolishes slavery, including in its colonies, though Cuba rejects ban and continues to deal in slaves.

    1813 – Sweden bans slave trading

    Time123 (b4d075)

  399. Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 8:27 am

    R: because the hoop we’re demanding Biden jump through is that he condemn bail, which is a constitutional right, so there’s no plausible way Biden can satisfy the test, and we think that’s clever. We’re standing back and standing by, Mr President Sir!

    No one is condeming the concept of bail. This is like saying people are against bribery because they don’t like contracts.

    I know some of this is trolling but you’ve drifted into dishonesty.

    frosty (f27e97)

  400. Dave (1bb933) — 10/1/2020 @ 8:54 am

    Now I’m a bigot against people in high population states? Very original. I didn’t realize they were a protected class.

    frosty (f27e97)

  401. However we were the second nation in the world to outlaw slavery. Don’t we get any credit for that?

    Tanny O’Haley (8a06bc) — 10/1/2020 @ 11:16 am

    It is important to recognize how many Americans gave their lives to stop slavery. Trump would call these men “losers” right?

    It’s hard for me to be temperate about politics anymore, so I know that’s difficult to engage with, but sure, give the USA credit for eventually doing the right thing, despite our founding clearly recognizing that it needed to happen much earlier. So many problems with our government, such as the EC, stem from cowardice about this issue.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  402. Time123 (d1bf33) — 10/1/2020 @ 8:57 am

    What is you think I won’t admit about BLM?

    BLM claims to be founded on marxism. This isn’t me saying this. When questioned about the foundation of BLM this is what the BLM founders said. This is baked into the organization itself. You’ve said you do not accept that.

    frosty (f27e97)

  403. No one is condeming the concept of bail.

    But the hoop Biden would have to jump through would indeed do so. This is transparent. Both sides set eachother up to pass tests that split their side on issues.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  404. BLM claims to be founded on marxism. This isn’t me saying this. When questioned about the foundation of BLM this is what the BLM founders said.

    This is true, but Proud Boys being about violence and hating N_____ and Jews is actually more evident.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  405. Time123 (d1bf33) — 10/1/2020 @ 8:57 am

    What is you think I won’t admit about BLM?

    BLM claims to be founded on marxism. This isn’t me saying this. When questioned about the foundation of BLM this is what the BLM founders said. This is baked into the organization itself. You’ve said you do not accept that.

    frosty (f27e97) — 10/1/2020 @ 1:49 pm

    You’re correct. I did. Then you provided the link and by the time I was able to read that thread had died. Yes, BLM’s founder did say that. They are a leftist org and appear very happy with Marxist ideas. It’s a good reason to dislike them. You were correct there and I was wrong.

    But their advocacy about police use of force and accountability is not itself inherently Marxist. I was reading similar goals at Reason.Com years before BLM was created and they’re about as far from Marx as you can get.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  406. Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:08 am

    We can’t get into Thomas Jefferson’s head. But my view was totally reasonable.

    We have a lot of information in the Federalist Papers and elsewhere on what they were thinking. They tried to justify what they were thinking at the time. You’re view is based on a modern analysis that wants to paint anything it can as racist.

    You have not provided a good reason

    I gave you a good reason you don’t like.

    The real problem is that he federal government is too powerful over too many different perspectives, and a 50 state confederation would be more pleasant.

    Agreed but not more pleasant. More free and more productive. It’s objectively better. I agree that this is the real problem and yet

    You don’t want the cities to have power over you, and like the EC only because, ad hoc, it gives you that.

    you restate basically the same argument as if this is my flawed postition. I support that EC because it produces an objectively better result.

    frosty (f27e97)

  407. Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:21 am

    I’m not sure what you mean by the other team. Do you mean I should see marxists as part of the solution and not as a threat? Their history and current intent are very clear.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:18 am

    but if people realize their vote was overridden by slavery era nonsense

    This is simply not true. You mentioned thousands of pages before but your underlying argument is that the EC existed because of slavery which isn’t true. It existed during slavery and slave states took advantage of it. They also took advantage of SCOTUS and practically anything else that existed from then until now. What exactly is the limit on the slavery era nonsense you intend to throw away?

    Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:43 am

    to discuss the principle that your vote and my vote should be equal, because equality before the law is the central tenet to the ethics of our country

    “equality before the law” is not “your vote and my vote should be equal”. They may be related but they are not the same.

    frosty (f27e97)

  408. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 10/1/2020 @ 9:50 am

    Exactly. And the argument to dump the EC is

    California is too large a state. Not only is the Senate representation unfair but the control of 40 million people by a single corrupt machine is bad all around.

    but the control of over 300m by a single corrupt machine is a good thing and would only result in more freedom, prosperity, and unicorns for everyone.

    frosty (f27e97)

  409. Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 1:51 pm

    But the hoop Biden would have to jump through would indeed do so. This is transparent. Both sides set eachother up to pass tests that split their side on issues.

    Harris raises money to bail out rioters and looters so that they can continue rioting and looting. Not doing that is a hoop to jump through? How is that even a “side” issue unless we’re all agreeing now that on side is pro-riot and the other is anti-riot. It’s reasonable to expect anyone we’re considering for political office to be anti-riot.

    frosty (f27e97)

  410. Time123 (d1bf33) — 10/1/2020 @ 2:13 pm

    But their advocacy about police use of force and accountability is not itself inherently Marxist. I was reading similar goals at Reason.Com years before BLM was created and they’re about as far from Marx as you can get.

    The advocacy around police use of force and accountability is not itself inherently Marxist. This is something I consider manifestly true and that I agree with 100%. On this I don’t think we disagree. I’m against no-knock warrants and I also thing there’s a lot of misinformation around the Taylor case. I think almost all of our current 4th amendment law is tainted by the drug war which itself is racist (and a much important topic than whether the EC is racist) but “we outlawed weed because white women were sleeping with jazz musicians” is propoganda.

    This is one of the reasons I’m so outspoken about BLM. I think they would be prefectly fine with police use of force. The issue is who controls the police and who the force is used against. Marxist have a long and clear history of using the police power of the state with violent results once they get control of it.

    Is everyone who says they back BLM marxist? No, this is where Dustin and I disagree. An organization can be composed of a diverse group of people, I think the organization is a bit deceptive in it’s marketing, and it’s possible people really aren’t clear on this.

    frosty (f27e97)

  411. Dustin (4237e0) — 10/1/2020 @ 1:53 pm

    This is true, but Proud Boys being about violence and hating N_____ and Jews is actually more evident.

    I’d take this more seriously and be more concerned about this if the Proud Boys were rioting and looting. If the Proud Boys protest they do their thing and it’s done. No looting, not rioting. As long as they are left alone. One the otter hand we’ve had multiple cities, for multiple months, have riots and looting killing multiple people and destroying a lot of property when BLM was left alone.

    Whether one is more evident than the other is irrelevant. One is much more destructive to both life and property than the other.

    frosty (f27e97)

  412. Looks like Trump finally managed to speak out unequivocally about white supremist. Not sure why it’s so hard for him but I’m glad he finally managed to land on the right answer.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  413. Frosty in 418 and 419, we have a lot of common ground here. But I think you’re mistaken about the proud boys not rioting. Their MO is to show up to a left wing riot and try to start trouble. As in, they get off their buss and start hitting other A-holes with hammers. They, can fellow travelers, have been arrested for violent acts many times with the motive provided by the police that they wanted to incite violence/start the race war/etc.

    Here’s a link to an old story.

    I don’t think they’re the source of the problem, but I think they’re making it worse on purpose.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  414. Time123 (69b2fc) — 10/2/2020 @ 6:21 am

    Their MO is to show up to a left wing riot and try to start trouble

    You’re missing my point. BLM has a protest that rountinly turns into riots and looting even when no one else shows up. The media then says this rioting and looting was caused by the right. This is a lie to cover up that BLM is inhernetly violent.

    Proud Boys have a protest and if no opposition shows up it’s a normal protest, no rioting or looting. This is rare though. So rare that the Proud Boys can declare a rally, not show up, and BLM/A will show up and start attacking each other and the press.

    I’m not saying there is no room to critize Proud Boys. There is. But some of the critizism I’ve heard in this thread isn’t valid.

    frosty (f27e97)

  415. Frosty, i think this thread is aging out and I’ll let you have the last word. I’m sure this will come up again. happy friday

    Time123 (69b2fc)

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