Patterico's Pontifications

6/29/2020

St. Louis Couple Points Guns At Protesters

Filed under: General — Dana @ 3:35 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Here’s video of the run-in between St. Louis Mayor Lyda Krewson’s neighbors and protesters, who were on their way to protest at the first-term Democratic mayor’s home:

(Well, they’re scared of hundreds of people marching past their home…)

President Trump retweeted ABC’s clip this morning, which shows the confrontation from a little bit different angle:

ABC News reports:

St. Louis police confirmed on Monday that they are investigating a confrontation caught on cellphone video of some white neighbors of Mayor Lyda Krewson pointing guns at protesters marching by their mansion on the way to the mayor’s home.

The episode occurred Sunday afternoon, when hundreds of demonstrators entered the gated Central West End neighborhood of St. Louis, banging drums and chanting for Krewson to resign and “take your cops with you.”

Cellphone video that went viral on social media showed a white couple—a man armed with what appeared to be a semiautomatic rifle and a woman wielding a silver-plated pistol with her finger on the trigger—emerging from their five-story limestone home. They were pointing the weapons at the protesters and yelling at them that they were on a private street. Demonstrators are heard in the videos telling other protesters to keep moving toward Krewson’s home and to ignore the couple.

The St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department [SLMPD] told ABC News on Monday that the couple, who police described as the victims, placed a “call for help” at 7:23 p.m. and that they are investigating the confrontation as a “trespassing/assault 4th intimidation” case.

From the police summary of the incident:

“The victims stated they were on their property when they heard a loud commotion coming from the street,” according to an incident summary of the ongoing investigation provided to ABC News by the SLMPD. “When the victims went to investigate the commotion, they observed a large group of subjects forcefully break an iron gate marked with ‘No Trespassing’ and ‘Private Street’ signs.

“Once through the gate, the victims advised the group that they were on a private street and trespassing and told them to leave,” according to the couple’s statement to the police included in the summary. “The group began yelling obscenities and threats of harm to both victims. When the victims observed multiple subjects who were armed, they then armed themselves and contacted police.”

The couple released a statement through their attorney today. In part:

“The peaceful protesters were not the subject of scorn or disdain by the McCloskeys,” the statement reads. “To the contrary, they were expecting [sic] and supportive of the message of the protesters. The actions of violence, destruction of property and acts of threatening aggression by a few individuals commingling with the peaceful protesters, gave rise to trepidation and fear of imminent and grave harm.

“Both Mr. and Mrs. McCloskey acted lawfully on their property which sits on a private gated lane in the City of St. Louis,” the statement reads. “Their actions were borne solely of fear and apprehension, the genesis of which was not race related. In fact, the agitators responsible for the trepidation were white.”

St. Louis Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner announced that her office is investigating the matter:

I am alarmed at the events that occurred over the weekend, where peaceful protestors were met by guns and a violent assault. We must protect the right to peacefully protest, and any attempt to chill it through intimidation or threat of deadly force will not be tolerated.

Protesters had been marching toward Mayor Krewson’s after she doxed constituents on Friday who had written letters supporting the move to defund the police:

During her Facebook Live on Friday, Krewson was asked about a meeting she had with protesters outside City Hall. Krewson grabbed submitted letters and read them, including the names and both partial and full addresses of those calling to defund the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department.

As a result of Krewson’s actions, an online petition calling for her resignation has garnered more than 40,000 signatures.

After the incident with the gun-toting couple, protesters eventually wound up at the mayor’s residence, and painted a large RESIGN sign on the street in front of her home.

Just a couple of things. This story is exhausting because it represents yet another effort for one group to portray the other group as the absolute worst of. To claim that the homeowners were scared of their own community is to intentionally ignore the fact that most of us would be unnerved, at the very least, to see hundreds of protesters marching past their home, especially if their home was located on a private road in a gated enclave. And because their neighbor happens to be the mayor of their city. I don’t find their concern unreasonable. But. The couple could have just as easily left the patio where they were dining, gone inside their home, called 911, and waited for the police to arrive. Given their exclusive location, they would have undoubtedly seen a quick response time by the police. The couple also could have gone outside and tried to engage with the crowd, and assure them of their support for the protesters (as they claimed they did in their statement) to help defuse the situation. [Ed. This was said sarcastically because I don’t believe that the couple really supported the protesters, in spite of their statement that they did.] And most definitely, the couple could have left their guns inside the residence, because brandishing firearms was surely seen as a provocation, especially when the woman was waving her gun around and pointing it directly at the crowd. If they wanted to send a message to the protesters that they were protecting their home, why not remain on the front porch with weapons in hand? Weapons, that I am convinced neither one knows how to properly use, given their carelessness with them. Look, I understand being concerned – and even fearful – when hundreds of people are in front of one’s home, yelling and chanting. And the couple did claim that some protesters were armed. I understand how that could feel threatening. I guess the question is, was this that? Were the homeowners exercising their legal rights? And what about the protesters?

ADDED: In spite of St. Louis Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner assessment of the incident, here is Anders Walker, a constitutional law professor at St. Louis University, discussing Missouri’s Castle Doctrine, and whether the protesters were trespassing:

…Walker said that although it’s “very dangerous” to engage protesters with guns, the homeowners broke no laws by brandishing or pointing weapons at them because Portland Place is a private street. He said the McCloskeys are protected by Missouri’s Castle Doctrine, which allows people to use deadly force to defend private property.

“At any point that you enter the property, they can then, in Missouri, use deadly force to get you off the lawn,” Walker said, calling the state’s Castle Doctrine a “force field” that “indemnifies you, and you can even pull the trigger in Missouri.”

Luckily, Walker said, no one got shot.

“There’s no right to protest on those streets,” Walker said. “The protesters thought they had a right to protest, but as a technical matter, they were not allowed to be there. … It’s essentially a private estate. If anyone was violating the law, it was the protesters. In fact, if (the McCloskeys) have photos of the protesters, they could go after them for trespassing.”

–Dana

119 Responses to “St. Louis Couple Points Guns At Protesters”

  1. I’m a privacy nut, so I’m just appalled that the homeowners don’t have a gigantic hedge surrounding the property, as well as a nice brick wall.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  2. Joshua Potash
    @JoshuaPotash
    ·
    Holy sh** protesters in St. Louis were just peacefully walking by a house when this couple came out brandishing guns.
    __ _

    Ian Miles Cheong
    @stillgray
    ·
    The so-called peaceful protesters in St. Louis screamed obscenities and threatened to seize the firearms the couple who came out to protect their home. Other clips had the sound removed so you wouldn’t hear the mob’s threats. https://twitter.com/RyanzoPerez/status/1277404541693169672/video/1
    __ _

    Meanwhile….

    Ryan Maue
    @RyanMaue

    WarnerMedia is selling the CNN Center in Downtown Atlanta.
    __

    harkin (5af287)

  3. harkin,

    I would like to see your video example (which sounds different than the ones I posted), but your link isn’t working. Can you re-link, please.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  4. this is the hell that kim gardner has delivered to the city of st, louis, freeing the prisoner, then the rioters, but the message comes from susan rosenberg,

    narciso (7404b5)

  5. Mr. and Mrs. Karen MacShootsherself were just waiting for a moment to go Suburb-Rambo. Watch it again, that’s not fear, that’s the anger of a twit who thinks the help is getting uppity.

    john (cd2753)

  6. According to the police, the couple reported that they observed the crown break open the gate in order to enter the private road. if true, then they weren’t just walking by peacfully. I am begining to think that “peaceful protest” is an oxymoron. I would think that peaceful protest would at least not break any sound ordinances or disturb the peace, maybe.

    felipe (023cc9)

  7. It wasn’t a peaceful protest. You can argue until you’re blue in the face about whether brandishing weapons was a reasonable response, but to call those protesters “peaceful” is pushing an agenda.

    Gryph (08c844)

  8. ““The victims stated they were on their property when they heard a loud commotion coming from the street,” according to an incident summary of the ongoing investigation provided to ABC News by the SLMPD. “When the victims went to investigate the commotion, they observed a large group of subjects forcefully break an iron gate marked with ‘No Trespassing’ and ‘Private Street’ signs.”

    They’re lying about this.

    https://twitter.com/caseymcg/status/1277721678844268545

    “And were the protesters in the right as well, given the private road?”

    They’re also lying about this. It’s not a private road. It’s closed to vehicle traffic, but it’s open for pedestrian traffic. Here’s a thread that shows the zoning and other information:

    https://twitter.com/IamShaneMorris/status/1277509594051416070

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  9. Sorry about the first one, I guess I linked a re-tweet.

    harkin (5af287)

  10. Kind of funny that some who are angry about people protecting their property had no problem with thugs handing out guns in the CHOP Zone, you know that summer of love place where people are actually being shot and killed.
    _

    If you dislike the couple tho, have no fear, they are now on the target list.
    _

    harkin (5af287)

  11. I don’t know enough about the laws for gated communities in MO to know if their actions were legally justifiable, so I’ll just repeat something I said on here a few weeks ago.

    A gun is not a toy. It is a serious tool for a serious purpose. If you have drawn or readied your weapon and are pointing it at another person you had best be damn sure of what you are doing, because at that point you are in a position to end the life of another human being and that is the most serious action a person can ever take.

    Nic (896fdf)

  12. ironically they are democrats who fed the crocodile, (donated to susan rosenbergs grift for progs)

    narciso (7404b5)

  13. Let’s re-order this a bit:

    The couple also could have gone outside and tried to engage with the crowd

    for example:

    they observed a large group of subjects forcefully break an iron gate marked with ‘No Trespassing’ and ‘Private Street’ signs

    then

    Once through the gate, the victims advised the group that they were on a private street and trespassing and told them to leave

    seems like an attempt to engage the crowd but

    The group began yelling obscenities and threats of harm to both victims. When the victims observed multiple subjects who were armed, they then armed themselves and contacted police

    Where are all of the people claiming ‘private property’ who are out and about when it’s time to pretend to be a libertarian and defend some leftist corporate play?

    Both Mr. and Mrs. McCloskey acted lawfully on their property which sits on a private gated lane

    in a state that recognizes castle doctrine. Also,

    We must protect the right to peacefully protest

    is a straight-up lie. When people trespass, destroy property, and threaten people they aren’t peaceful and they aren’t protestors.

    frosty (f27e97)

  14. “When people trespass, destroy property, and threaten people they aren’t peaceful and they aren’t protestors.”

    Good thing this isn’t what happened, then.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  15. john (cd2753) — 6/29/2020 @ 4:02 pm

    Do they also have punchable faces?

    To be fair, though, they display no discipline in how to properly handle those weapons. If they did have training, though, it disappeared in their fear. Firearm discipline, in all its aspects, is a perishable skill. It takes a lot of work just to stay at the same level.

    felipe (023cc9)

  16. A gun is not a toy. It is a serious tool for a serious purpose. If you have drawn or readied your weapon and are pointing it at another person you had best be damn sure of what you are doing, because at that point you are in a position to end the life of another human being and that is the most serious action a person can ever take.
    Nic (896fdf) — 6/29/2020 @ 4:10 pm

    Well said, Nic, and worth repeating.

    felipe (023cc9)

  17. Note: I’ve edited the post to reflect that my comment regarding the couple defusing the situation was said in sarcasm:

    [Ed. This was said sarcastically because I don’t believe that the couple really supported the protesters, in spite of their statement that they did.]

    I am going to veer away from making sarcastic remarks because they apparently are not coming across in the way intended.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  18. A gun is not a toy. It is a serious tool for a serious purpose. If you have drawn or readied your weapon and are pointing it at another person you had best be damn sure of what you are doing, because at that point you are in a position to end the life of another human being and that is the most serious action a person can ever take.
    Nic (896fdf) — 6/29/2020 @ 4:10 pm

    Is anyone convinced that the couple knew how to use their firearms with proficiency and expertise?? I’m no expert, but it seemed to me that they had no idea of what to do with them. The wife was waving her gun around, and pointing it at protesters. And the husband was pointing his weapon at his wife, who parked herself right in front of it.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  19. Beverly Hillbillies without the quaintness.

    nk (1d9030)

  20. @16

    “To be fair, though, they display no discipline in how to properly handle those weapons. If they did have training, though, it disappeared in their fear. Firearm discipline, in all its aspects, is a perishable skill. It takes a lot of work just to stay at the same level.”

    Yes, this.

    Nic (896fdf)

  21. Given their exclusive location, they would have undoubtedly seen a quick response time by the police.

    Usually. In context not. And they may well have called first and NOT gotten the response.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  22. Also, this portion of the couple’s statement feels funny:

    In fact, the agitators responsible for the trepidation were white.

    I would like to see that confirmed by video.

    I also noted that about 95% of the reports I read about the incident referred to the “White St. Louis Couple…” in their titles and body of the report.

    “White” is all the rage today. And the weapon of choice.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  23. Kind of funny that some who are angry about people protecting their property had no problem with thugs handing out guns in the CHOP Zone, you know that summer of love place where people are actually being shot and killed.

    Please point to someone here that said passing out guns in the CHAZCHOP was a good thing. CHAZCHOP was always rough, it’s now more rough, and…?

    One thing isn’t another thing. Victor gave you a report from there, a friend of mine went there a couple of times, armed every time, but that was true 10 years ago and 10 days ago, he actually felt safer a few weeks ago, right up until he didn’t, but he didn’t think it was worse than before. It might be now, I’d avoid it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  24. They need a private contractor for safety. They look like targets.

    mg (8cbc69)

  25. Davethulhu (7d96ba) — 6/29/2020 @ 4:19 pm

    “When people trespass, destroy property, and threaten people they aren’t peaceful and they aren’t protestors.”

    Good thing this isn’t what happened, then.

    But there’s a picture of the gate they destroyed to get into the “gated” community that is easy to find online. They vandalized the road in front of the mayor’s house. You’ve got a bit riding on the idea that they didn’t get on private property and didn’t threaten the couple. Given how these “peaceful protests” normally go I think the couple had a right to be concerned.

    frosty (f27e97)

  26. I’m just appalled that the homeowners don’t have a gigantic hedge surrounding the property, as well as a nice brick wall.

    Some cities don’t allow high front walls. Los Angeles doesn’t.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  27. They’re lying about this.

    Well, someone is. That video shows the gate already opened by an Antifa thug a march proctor. No indication whether it started off locked or how it got opened.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  28. Given their exclusive location, they would have undoubtedly seen a quick response time by the police.

    Usually. In context not. And they may well have called first and NOT gotten the response.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/29/2020 @ 4:30 pm

    I disagree, Kevin M. The couple lived next door to the mayor, who has been very supportive of the city’s police officers:

    When it comes to “defunding” police, Krewson says that’s not the answer for having a better police force. Until there are more robust social and mental health services, she says it’s left up to the police to handle many issues.

    Krewson says St. Louis Police have shown “a lot of restraint” during recent violence in the last couple of weeks.

    Thus, I think they would have been very responsive to any 911 calls from her street.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  29. “White” is all the rage today. And the weapon of choice.

    But the protestors are never given a racial description. “White” is a pejorative to some.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. Dana (25e0dc) — 6/29/2020 @ 4:27 pm

    Is anyone convinced that the couple knew how to use their firearms with proficiency and expertise?

    No, I don’t think they did. But on my list of important take-aways from this incident, this isn’t at the top.

    I would have preferred a better example. I’m expecting that with everyone doing their best to encourage these “peaceful protests” I may get one.

    frosty (f27e97)

  31. Dana, it would have taken them some time to get the guns from their FIVE STORY house and then go out to confront the marchers. Five minutes minimum. Where are these cops?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  32. “But there’s a picture of the gate they destroyed to get into the “gated” community that is easy to find online. ”

    If you look at my post @9, you can see the protesters walking through an undamaged gate. The picture of a broken gate (I’ve seen it) is context free.

    “You’ve got a bit riding on the idea that they didn’t get on private property and didn’t threaten the couple. ”

    I’m sure words were exchanged. Pointing a gun at someone is a threat, more severe than anything the crowd could do, and I haven’t seen any evidence that they were present without weapons initially.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  33. And God only knows what their servants were thinking.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. If you look at my post @9, you can see the protesters walking through an undamaged gate. The picture of a broken gate (I’ve seen it) is context free.

    A broken lock = a broken gate. And there may be more than one gate.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  35. I agree with Dana though that neither group is within their rights and both sides are trying to demonize the other. Some here are trying to help in that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  36. Beverly Hillbillies without the quaintness.

    B. Skybox Cardinals fans, not the Jim Hoft-y White Dress Shoe or Redneck kind.

    C. A-hole tourist villains in Ozark.

    D. All of the above.

    urbanleftbehind (e0ae19)

  37. “I’m a privacy nut, so I’m just appalled that the homeowners don’t have a gigantic hedge surrounding the property, as well as a nice brick wall.”

    The reason they don’t have a hedge or wall is also explained by the reason the road and sidewalks aren’t private property: The houses are in the National Register of Historic Places.

    https://npgallery.nps.gov/AssetDetail/56d4c4fb-02ce-4d27-8806-14aa8a5a408b

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  38. Benny
    @bennyjohnson
    ·
    So it turns out the gun-toting couple:

    -Supports BLM
    -Are Democrats
    -Are representing a victim of police brutality.

    The media is going to have a hard time comprehending this since they spent all of last night and this morning smearing them.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1277691917199904768
    _

    harkin (5af287)

  39. It wasn’t a peaceful protest. You can argue until you’re blue in the face about whether brandishing weapons was a reasonable response, but to call those protesters “peaceful” is pushing an agenda.

    For as much of the video as I’ve seen, which probably isn’t exhaustive, they lean more towards peaceful than violent. The couple came out armed, barefoot, and belligerent, would the march have even stopped if it wasn’t for their actions? Put some shoes on, and get a holster.

    The booger boys might be more intimidating, and frankly more actively dangerous, but at least they wouldn’t shoot you or themselves purely by negligence.

    Also, even in states with Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine, you are asking to be charged if you bring the escalation into an argument in a threatening manner. That’s why I would never, never ever, tell anyone to pull your gun unless you are 100% ready to use it, there’s no aiming for the leg, warning shots, or any of that. If you are marching around pointing it at people while shouting back and forth for an extended period of time, you’ve signaled that A) your not a threat, and B) the situation didn’t warrant it, and C) if the other guy responds with actually shooting you, they’re probably going to get off.

    Now, were they trespassing in the neighborhood, maybe. But the argument that anything inside the gates is the same as the living room is not the argument that “a reasonable person” would make, it’s one the two lawyers better make, as their law license is at risk, and they may be at risk for a felony conviction under Missouri law, Section 571.030(4) of the Revised Statutes of Missouri.

    I’d not prosecute them, let then live with their internet fame, like the prison guard and co in New Jersey all getting canned for acting out the Floyd death. Internet fame is probably worse. BTW, nice house.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  40. Correction – may not be the same McClossky

    _

    harkin (5af287)

  41. I have been skeptical of the term crisis actor, but I can see these 2 being, in effect, the white Mr. and Mrs. Big of a modern day real life blaxploitation flick.

    urbanleftbehind (e0ae19)

  42. @19 Generally speaking, the people in my life who are gun owners are back country hunters who have hunting rifles that they take very seriously, police officers, and current or former members of the US military. None of them handle their weapons like that, or would handle their weapons like that, or would accept anyone in their vicinity handling weapons like that. No, no I don’t think the couple knew what they were doing. No.

    Nic (896fdf)

  43. One side of the gate was torn off and twisted. The video makes it clear that when the protesters started to go through the gate was open but not damaged. There seems to be no evidence of who or when the half-gate got torn off. I would presume by some of the protesters after the rest went through. But that’s a guess.

    BTW (although this is totally irrelevant to the matter at hand, this is the house
    https://www.stlmag.com/design/a-decades-long-renovation-returns-a-midwestern-palazzo-to-it/

    Kishnevi (2bc4c7)

  44. They aren’t wearing masks.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  45. So it turns out the gun-toting couple:

    -Supports BLM
    -Are Democrats
    -Are representing a victim of police brutality.

    The media is going to have a hard time comprehending this since they spent all of last night and this morning smearing them.

    So it turns out they released a press release that says #1, #2 is a blatant lie, and of course they’re doing #3, that’s how they got that house.

    From 2016 on 25 of 25 contributions from the husband were to Trump or the RNC. In 20 years he did contribute to Clair McCaskill once, and Carnehan twice, 2 different ones, but 33 of 36 to the RNC or Trump.

    For the wife it was 100% to Trump and the RNC.

    In 1993, Mark McCloskey wrote a letter to the editor about crime in St. Louis. He wrote, “the reason high-income people leave the city, and why I can’t talk my friends into moving in, is crime. Why live where your life is at risk, where you are affronted by thugs, bums, drug addicts and punks when you can afford not to. What St. Louis can do without are the murderers, beggars, drug addicts and street corner drunks. St. Louis needs more people of substance and fewer of subsistence.”

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  46. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/29/2020 @ 4:55 pm

    But the argument that anything inside the gates is the same as the living room is not the argument that “a reasonable person” would make

    Is anyone actually making that argument? Is the castle doctrine in Missouri limited to your living room?

    frosty (f27e97)

  47. Is anyone actually making that argument? Is the castle doctrine in Missouri limited to your living room?

    Mark McCloskey specifically made the argument. Specifically, because he and his wife are getting internet famous and are trying to make a tenuous legal argument.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  48. 47. The only way to answer that question with due process is to press charges and take it to a jury. If the DA has any doubt as to whether the couple’s actions were reasonable, I guess it defaults to “innocent until proven guilty.” But I don’t really think it’s a good idea to try them in the media as is so often the case.

    Gryph (08c844)

  49. He also said it was like the storming of the Bastille. Something were 99 were killed and 73 wounded in a literal battle.

    If like you mean stubbing your toe is like cutting off your leg with a chainsaw, then they are alike.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  50. where not were

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  51. This is a story for
    1) Normal people with a surfeit of hoots to give; and
    2. Rednecks with Cinderella dreams.

    nk (1d9030)

  52. This couple are ActBlue Members and Bidet supporters…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  53. This couple are ActBlue Members and Bidet supporters…

    As shown above, this is a 100% complete lie, they have been 100% Trump supporters, more than 50 donations to Trump and the RNC just in the last 4 years.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  54. 36 not 50 in the last 4, 55 out of 59 in the last 10.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  55. And no Gephardt donations in the early years? That does mean they are just plain Rs, not Hawley brand converts.

    urbanleftbehind (e0ae19)

  56. And no Gephardt donations in the early years? That does mean they are just plain Rs, not Hawley brand converts.

    It appears they are on the Trump subscription plan.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  57. Clarification on Missouri’s Castle Doctrine and whether protesters were breaking the law:

    Anders Walker, a constitutional law professor at St. Louis University, said that although it’s “very dangerous” to engage protesters with guns, the homeowners broke no laws by brandishing or pointing weapons at them because Portland Place is a private street. He said the McCloskeys are protected by Missouri’s Castle Doctrine, which allows people to use deadly force to defend private property.

    “At any point that you enter the property, they can then, in Missouri, use deadly force to get you off the lawn,” Walker said, calling the state’s Castle Doctrine a “force field” that “indemnifies you, and you can even pull the trigger in Missouri.”

    “There’s no right to protest on those streets,” Walker said. “The protesters thought they had a right to protest, but as a technical matter, they were not allowed to be there. … It’s essentially a private estate. If anyone was violating the law, it was the protesters. In fact, if (the McCloskeys) have photos of the protesters, they could go after them for trespassing.”

    Dana (25e0dc)

  58. The other thing is that they, and especially the Lady Chatelaine, spent more time pointing their guns at each other than at the protesters.

    nk (1d9030)

  59. I’ve added this to the post.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  60. “At any point that you enter the property, they can then, in Missouri, use deadly force to get you off the lawn,” Walker said, calling the state’s Castle Doctrine a “force field” that “indemnifies you, and you can even pull the trigger in Missouri.”

    That is completely not a thing. You do not get to kill anyone trespassing for any reason, even in Missouri, I know their statute is more permissive.

    I find this much more compelling. Of course, no one got shot, so castle doctrine doesn’t apply. Internet famous, and common sense, says they were boneheaded.

    “Whereas the large majority of jurisdictions limit the castle doctrine to the boundaries of the house, MO’s is more expansive. Some commenters are reading the statute to mean that you could lawfully shoot someone who stepped onto your lawn. Despite the availability of signs saying, ‘Trespassers will be shot,’ mere trespass has not historically been a basis for using deadly force. So, does MO’s statute represent a new trend, allowing expansive use of deadly force to protect private property? No,” Yung wrote in an extensive Twitter thread.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  61. They want the end to the country and everything it entails

    https://mobile.twitter.com/mzhemingway/status/1277797711094394885?s=21

    Narciso (7404b5)

  62. They want the end to the country and everything it entails

    So they want to sell out the country to Russia for a peepee tape? Or are we talking about the white power bit? Who is they?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  63. Nice for the mayor to live on a private street to avoid annoying protesters.

    Rip Murdock (cbe514)

  64. St. Louis couple point guns at crowd of protesters calling for mayor to resign
    ……

    Though Missouri has among the loosest gun restrictions in the U.S., legal experts said it’s unclear if the law would back the McCloskeys’ claim of self-defense or their critics claim of improperly using a firearm to intimidate.

    Even residents living on what they declare to be private streets cannot act with imputing, said Eric Banks, a former state prosecutor and St. Louis city counselor.

    “’Castle Doctrine’ does not extend to the street,” Banks told The Post, referencing a law that gives people certain protections to use deadly force on intruders to their home. “I defy you to find one picture of the [protesters] on the grass. They were not putting those homeowner’s lives at risk.”

    Banks said residents living in gated communities and on private streets may overestimate the control they have over the “fiefdom.”

    “Their private street status does not super-cede the laws of the city of St. Louis, which says you can’t point guns at people at to intimidate them,” he added.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (cbe514)

  65. When Can You Threaten Deadly Force as a Defensive Tactic? (Volokh Conspiracy)
    …….[Y]ou generally can’t use it if all you reasonably fear is mere trespass on your open land (e.g., your lawn) or minor vandalism or even a physical battery short of serious bodily injury. You can use nondeadly force to stop such lesser harms, but not deadly force……

    If you can lawfully use deadly force, then you can lawfully threaten deadly force, e.g., by pointing a gun at someone or saying “get out of here, or I’ll shoot you.” So if, for instance, you tell a trespasser that they’re trespassing (or even threaten nondeadly force to tell them to stop trespassing), and they turn on you and credibly threaten to kill you (the St. Louis man’s story), then you can generally use deadly force to protect against that threat.

    If you can’t lawfully use any force (for instance, against people who aren’t trespassing but are merely peacefully protesting on a public sidewalk, even in front of your house), then you can’t lawfully threaten deadly force, either.
    ………
    Can you threaten deadly force even when you can’t lawfully use it? (Assume they are merely trespassing, and you don’t reasonably believe them to be threatening something much worse.) On that, states disagree. The LaFave & Scott Criminal Law treatise tells us that “merely to threaten death or serious bodily harm, without any intention to carry out the threat, is not to use deadly force, so that one may be justified in pointing a gun at his attacker when he would not be justified pulling the trigger.” Likewise, Black’s Law Dictionary defines “nondeadly force” to include a “threat of deadly force, such as displaying a knife.” …….That seems to be the majority view.

    But it’s not the view everywhere, and in particular not in Missouri, see State v. Kendrick (Mo. Ct. App. 2018):……

    Rip Murdock (cbe514)

  66. In 1993, Mark McCloskey wrote a letter to the editor about crime in St. Louis. He wrote, “the reason high-income people leave the city, and why I can’t talk my friends into moving in, is crime. Why live where your life is at risk, where you are affronted by thugs, bums, drug addicts and punks when you can afford not to. What St. Louis can do without are the murderers, beggars, drug addicts and street corner drunks. St. Louis needs more people of substance and fewer of subsistence.”

    Which part of this was wrong?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  67. He left out lawyers.

    nk (1d9030)

  68. hat is completely not a thing. You do not get to kill anyone trespassing for any reason, even in Missouri, I know their statute is more permissive.

    Of course not. You have to be in actual fear of attack, and you might shoot at someone who continued to approach when you demanded the stop doing so. This was an unhinged situation, and the mansion-owners did not help it any, but bringing a mob to the doorstep of public officials, or even to a residential neighborhood, is not a peaceful act NO MATTER WHAT.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  69. No place needs high-income people rich jerkoffs, either.

    nk (1d9030)

  70. Lucky the protestors were not members of the john brown gun club!

    asset (ebbbf1)

  71. mg (8cbc69) — 6/30/2020 @ 2:35 am

    That’s a great essay, and I agree with him.

    The problem is that there are large swaths of African-Americans who don’t. To them, I suspect his assurances that the system works and people need to have faith in it ring as hollow as the pre-Trump establishment GOP’s assurances to the people who became Trump’s base.

    Both the BLM’ers and Trumpers have been seduced by disreputable demagogues who thrive off of cultivating grievance and shifting responsibility away from the individual and onto a warped narrative of a system that is supposedly stacked hopelessly against them.

    Dave (1bb933)

  72. A white terrorist that bombed a major targer, was able to fool the legal system and get big corporate funding for their mission to destroy society, hello anybody home.

    Narciso (7404b5)

  73. This is only a story because of the optics, a paunchy middle-aged guy in a preppy pink shirt brandishing what looks like an assault rifle, and a somewhat freaked out (but well coiffed wife) holding her little handgun as if she were holding a salamander. Clearly, the protesters wanted to portray them as White Privilege. To me, they were a couple of Americans protecting their property from what could potentially devolve into a mob, a group that illegally broke into a private community and trespassed on a private street.
    The worst that can be said of the McCloskeys is the sloppy way they handled their firearms. Other than that, they did nothing wrong.

    Paul Montagu (c8b54e)

  74. That’s easy for you to say, Paul. You weren’t triggered back into the 1960s like poor Narciso.

    nk (1d9030)

  75. Defend the mob, till they come for your office and they will.

    Narciso (7404b5)

  76. And that hoosier nitwit, braun who is waving rosembergs pompoms and derrick bells scripr

    Narciso (7404b5)

  77. Clearly, the protesters wanted to portray them as White Privilege.

    Nothing says White Privilege like well off white people looking too stupid to be well off.

    They were totally within their rights to look stupid as they did, that can be said.

    beer ‘n pretzels (7dbf31)

  78. Defend the mob, till they come for your office and they will.

    Let them come for my office!

    I expect to be working from home for the foreseeable future anyway.

    Dave (1bb933)

  79. nk, and I wasn’t triggered by Reagan like poor DCSCA.

    Paul Montagu (c8b54e)

  80. Speaking of white privilege, today is the day the Supremes order Trump’s tax returns released, Inshallah.

    Dave (1bb933)

  81. 78, look at Indiana’s police blotters- diverse in the true sense of the word- and it’s highly likely the white deaths at hands of police agglomerate there.

    urbanleftbehind (e80cfe)

  82. Mayor krewdson says police arent needed, even though gardner has made it clear why they are indispensible.

    Narciso (7404b5)

  83. The point is these mobs are a more pressing and immediate danger to life liberty and property on both coasts then some apocryphal russians three thousand miles away. That i have to zpell that put here is an indication of what a dump youve let this place degenerate into

    Narciso (7404b5)

  84. Narciso (7404b5) — 6/30/2020 @ 6:50 am

    That it’s not generally obvious is an indication, along with a handful of other indicators, of what a dump we’ve let everywhere degenerate into.

    frosty (f27e97)

  85. Dont worry, Narciso, I think all of his here are ready with our golden gatling gun when the time comes

    urbanleftbehind (e80cfe)

  86. RIP Carl Reiner.

    Rip Murdock (cbe514)

  87. For a ‘conservative’ site, awful lot of people going to bat for the prog mobs.

    Guess some folks are hoping the alligator eats them last.

    Capsaicin Addict (041266)

  88. For a ‘conservative’ site, awful lot of people going to bat for the prog mobs.

    Conservatives are on the side of the individual in his struggle against the tyranny and oppression of the state.

    Dave (1bb933)

  89. The tyranny and oppression of the state in Seattle is hard to match.

    Those opposing the state were allowed to take over city blocks plus its police station, chase the cops out, barricade it and hand out semi-automatic weapons while the authoritarian state deemed it a street fair with the atmosphere of the Summer Of Love.
    _

    harkin (5af287)

  90. 93… Fightin’ words from an employee of the State!

    Go get ‘em, Tiger!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  91. : waves :

    Hi… long time St. Louis area residence who’s intimately aware of the area in question.

    Yes, those roads/sidewalks are private properties. The residence pays for the upkeep that the city doesn’t do.

    Anyone who lives in the area *knows* these are private properties. Neighborhoods like these are all over the place. So, either they didn’t care or these were outsiders.

    I don’t care if the couple is a lefty or a righty.

    I don’t care the they’re lawyers. ( not there’s anything wrong with them 😉 )

    I don’t care that they’re trying to spin their 15min of fame.

    And I really don’t care by the lack of trigger discipline in this case. It’s their property.

    Those protesters don’t have a right to be there. There’s even reports that these protesters waved pistols and threatened to kill the couple.

    The couple is full within their rights to inform them trespassing will be met with force.

    Are we really that surprised these folks reacted that way, when literally down the road (yes, within walking distance) the recent riots occurred? The same area where David Dorn was murdered?

    Missouri’s Castle Doctrine is really, really broad and technically the black-letter law allows the homeowners to shoot at trespassers after warning them (but, weirdly you cannot fire a “warning shot”…that’s bad). (however, I’m dubious if that would hold up in court). But, getting unanimous conviction by a St. Louis jury? Doubtful…

    Frankly, I’m surprised its taken this long for something like this to happen. Especially in Missouri when we’re seeing MASSIVE firearm purchases in the area.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  92. Mayor krewdson says police arent needed, even though gardner has made it clear why they are indispensible.
    Actually the old bat doesn’t favor defunding the police, and she has doxxed those that do.

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  93. You’re wrong on every one of your points, whembly.

    Anyone conducting lawful business, which includes walking to the Mayor’s house, can access the road, the same as a pizza delivery guy or an ambulance or a census taker.

    Castle Doctrine only applies on “attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle”.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  94. I am curious about Davethulu’s point. Was this privately owned road a way that the pizza drivers routinely use, or was this some massive residence with private roads no one accesses? Did they slam the gates shut to stop the people from protesting at the mayor’s house?

    Either way, I don’t like the idea of politics of intimidation. Hordes of angry people painting RESIGN in from of someone’s house is a terrible way to make the point. We should have ample public spaces near government centers for protests, but homes = families and families should be off limits. Yeah, that means rich politicians enjoy safety the poor people who actually needed those defunded police departments don’t get, but we also get more stability in government.

    Dustin (739c8b)

  95. Well, the hits keep coming from Hoosierland, when you factor in Braun, Roberts and now
    http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/holding-your-cellphone-while-driving-in-indiana-becomes-illegal-on-wednesday

    urbanleftbehind (e80cfe)

  96. “Either way, I don’t like the idea of politics of intimidation. Hordes of angry people painting RESIGN in from of someone’s house is a terrible way to make the point.”

    This was a specific response to the mayor publicly doxxing people who had sent her letters urging police reform.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  97. they are a mob, encouraged by marxist revolutionaries, lena guerrero could figure this out, we have seen what the partisans of police reform have done in seattle portland minneapolis, boston, too many cities to count,

    narciso (7404b5)

  98. “they are a mob”

    Show me the law, narciso.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  99. @98

    You’re wrong on every one of your points, whembly.

    Anyone conducting lawful business, which includes walking to the Mayor’s house, can access the road, the same as a pizza delivery guy or an ambulance or a census taker.

    Castle Doctrine only applies on “attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle”.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba) — 6/30/2020 @ 9:32 am

    Castle Doctrine applies to private properties too. There’s no requirement to withdraw.
    Those roads/sidewalks there are NOT public spaces.

    Breaking down an iron-wrought gate and trespassing is NOT a “lawful business” act. The pizza delivery guy, ambulance or even the census taker *CAN* go onto those roads because they’re doing legit business. Protesters technically cannot protest there, although I’ll concede it’ll be difficult to enforce w/o actual security forces. (which, these residence may just pay for now).

    whembly (fd57f6)

  100. This was a specific response to the mayor publicly doxxing people who had sent her letters urging police reform.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba) — 6/30/2020 @ 9:37 am

    Everyone knows that. You post so much spam that sometimes it’s as though you don’t realize what the rest of us are talking about.

    But yeah, the politician did a stupid thing.

    Going up to their house when they do stupid things can intimidate them, scare their family and neighbors, and that might seem justified if you’re on the anger bandwagon, but it’s better to have these protests at the government center, not people’s homes. We don’t need politicians making decisions based on who is going to respond with the most disturbing change to their home.

    If you can’t separate your conclusion from what side you’re on of the mayor’s decision, that’s a cognitive bias you should fight.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. I say this as someone the left was very happy to doxx. I don’t have to be a fan of doxxing, or fan of cops making terrible mistakes, to want communities to retain a baseline of peace and safety at all times.

    A common feature of BLM protests: context cut videos of someone responding in fear for their safety, mocking the claimed over-reaction. Maybe if you guys are lucky a protestor is badly harmed in the response so you get tens of thousands of retweets. Meanwhile, these are real communities. You have studiously ignored what is causing such a consistent response, as though it’s not important. And if that were flipped around, it’s all you would care about.

    Just imagine if the left didn’t reward this concept in this way. Trump never would have been elected. hundreds of thousands of Americans who are dead today would probably be alive. It’s not an assignment of blame. At a certain point you just care about people, as though you actually think their lives matter. Therefore, this ‘specific response’ to a bad thing was itself wrong.

    Dustin (739c8b)

  101. Tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands. Yet.

    Dustin (739c8b)

  102. “Castle Doctrine applies to private properties too. There’s no requirement to withdraw.”

    They weren’t being attacked.

    “Breaking down an iron-wrought gate ”

    They didn’t break the gate. I posted a video way back near the start of this thread showing the protesters walking through an unbroken gate.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  103. Dustin, I appreciate the critique, but I don’t agree. I think the core of our disagreement is this: “You have studiously ignored what is causing such a consistent response, as though it’s not important. ”

    I don’t think the cops are making “terrible mistakes”, I think they are acting with deliberation.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  104. @108

    “Castle Doctrine applies to private properties too. There’s no requirement to withdraw.”

    They weren’t being attacked.

    They were trespassing and hurling threats.

    “Breaking down an iron-wrought gate ”

    They didn’t break the gate. I posted a video way back near the start of this thread showing the protesters walking through an unbroken gate.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba) — 6/30/2020 @ 10:02 am

    Oh. Wait. You mean they didn’t film themselves breaking through the gate? Just imagine that!

    Unless you’re arguing that the gate was already broken? How do you know?

    whembly (fd57f6)

  105. “They were trespassing and hurling threats.”

    The protesters were responding to having guns pointed at them.

    “Oh. Wait. You mean they didn’t film themselves breaking through the gate? Just imagine that!

    Unless you’re arguing that the gate was already broken? How do you know?”

    If you look at my post @9, the cameraman walks through an unbroken gate and then shows the couple already outside. The couple claim that they came outside after the protesters broke the gate. They’re clearly lying.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  106. @111

    “They were trespassing and hurling threats.”

    The protesters were responding to having guns pointed at them.

    The couple were responding to have trespassers and being threatened. Try again.

    “They’re clearly lying”

    Dude… it’s possible that the cameraman was late to that fracas and didn’t even see the gate being busted through.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  107. “The couple were responding to have trespassers and being threatened. ”

    I haven’t seen any evidence that they were outside, got threatened, then went in and got their guns.

    “Dude… it’s possible that the cameraman was late to that fracas and didn’t even see the gate being busted through.”

    Dude, watch the video. Cameraman walks through the gate, it’s not broken.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  108. Davethulhu, Whembly:

    It is well known that a camera, in competent hands, can show only what the operator wishes to be seen? BY using angle, cropping, and time, manipulate the viewer? Until more than a short clip from one angle, is offered for view, the context remains biased. The Covington affair should be reason enough for observing ample caution.

    A short experiment:

    May I offer the possibility that there might be more than one gate in play? And you both are right as well as wrong? That without all the information, you may be arguing in vain?

    Imagine a prowler unable to enter a residence through a secure door, breaking through another, less secure door and then easily open the door that allows the easiest ingress/egress for his compatriots?

    Just a thought.

    felipe (023cc9)

  109. Yes, that’s possible felipe.

    whembly (fd57f6)

  110. Owners of businesses under attack and people being beaten and stomped by these “protesters” aren’t enough to convince Cthulhu of the danger.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  111. felipe, you make a good point, so I did a bit more research.

    Using google street view, this appears to be the street in question: https://i.imgur.com/XLkhYWE.png.
    There are in fact 2 pedestrian gates (plus a larger street gate). You can see the couple’s house to the right.

    I’m pretty sure, from watching the video, that the protesters entered the right side gate, since they didn’t have to cross the street to come up on the house.

    The photo of the broken gate appears to be taken from the inside. However, it also looks like it’s the right side gate, because you can see that little window in the wall and the edge of the tower, neither of which are present on the left side gate.

    However, with all of the above, I think it’s likely that the protesters broke the gate, just not on the timeline given by the couple. I can’t imagine who else could have broken it, considering the small amount of time that elapsed between the news of this happening and the photos of the broken gate appearing. The photos were probably taken after the protesters moved down the street.

    Davethulhu (7d96ba)

  112. Such Analysis! Very Educated! Let’s collect the bad or hilarious takes from the Expert Commentariat:

    “I’m a privacy nut, so I’m just appalled that the homeowners don’t have a gigantic hedge surrounding the property, as well as a nice brick wall.”

    Dana is now on the record as saying BUILD THAT WALL! The Trump campaign thanks you for your endorsement.

    john: “Mr. and Mrs. Karen MacShootsherself were just waiting for a moment to go Suburb-Rambo. Watch it again, that’s not fear, that’s the anger of a twit who thinks the help is getting uppity.”

    john doesn’t care about the right to life or private property if you look in any way weird or off-putting. john is super-mega-racist.

    “I don’t believe that the couple really supported the protesters”

    Dana doesn’t care about the right to life or private property if you don’t support Black Lives Matter. Suuuper-bigoted.

    “Beverly Hillbillies without the quaintness.”

    nk casually slurs a quite accomplished midwestern lawyer by associating him with the thickest TV-Southerners imaginable.

    “Just imagine if the left didn’t reward this concept in this way. Trump never would have been elected.”

    Dustin comes to a realization that will probably flee him in another thread: TRUMP WAS THE RIGHT MAN AT THE RIGHT TIME. He is free to continue criticizing Trump’s actions under the assumptions that he lives in another time, amid other enemies much less serious than this.

    “None of them handle their weapons like that, or would handle their weapons like that, or would accept anyone in their vicinity handling weapons like that. No, no I don’t think the couple knew what they were doing. No.”

    What a huge shock that most normal people don’t train EVERY DAY in weapon handling and crowd control, especially when they work as lawyers.

    To recap, the response from the comment section luminaries has been mostly: bigoted presumption, ignorance of context, snide asides, and demands for actions that they most certainly would never take themselves, especially not under pressure. P-man hasn’t posted but his Twitter feed has been predictably worse.

    Verdict: your expertise is useless, your ‘advice’ is atrocious, and you prove how much you deserve Trump and his consequences with every post.

    Terrible Taker (4f02af)

  113. Dustin comes to a realization that will probably flee him in another thread: TRUMP WAS THE RIGHT MAN AT THE RIGHT TIME.

    Um no, he’s the worst president in American history. The proof is right here. He promised us greatness. Had both houses of congress and a pretty favorable court. all he accomplished was massive racial division, as predicted.

    you prove how much you deserve Trump

    I know to you guys, it must have felt bad to have a black president. Like that was done to hurt you, and politicians are inflicted on your foes. So Trump appeals to that idea because he really does hurt Americans, our values, our prestige, our economy. But this argument that we deserve Trump good and hard is coming from the same mouths that tell us we’re crazy not to vote against Trump.

    It’s mental illness. all Trump guys bragging about schadenfreude from 2016 because they would rather think about that than where we are today, Trump losing in Texas, are distancing themselves from painful reality.

    Dustin (739c8b)

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