Patterico's Pontifications

6/3/2020

AG To Announce Upgraded Charges Against Chauvin, Three Other Officers To Face Charges In George Floyd Killing (Update Added)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:25 am



[guest post by Dana]

The announcement is supposed to be made later today:

Attorney General Keith Ellison plans to elevate charges against the former Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck while adding charges of aiding and abetting murder against the other three officers at the scene, according to multiple law enforcement sources familiar with the case.

Ellison is expected to provide an update this afternoon on the state’s investigation into Floyd’s death. According to sources, former officer Derek Chauvin, recorded on video kneeling on Floyd’s neck as he begged for air on May 25, will now be charged with second-degree murder.

The other three officers at the scene — Tou Thao, J. Alexander Kueng and Thomas Lane — will also be charged with aiding and abetting second-degree murder, according to the sources, who spoke on conditions of anonymity. Chauvin was arrested last Friday and charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter.

The upgraded charges raise the maximum sentence from 25 years behind bars to 40 years behind bars.

I’ll update the post after Ellison makes the official announcement.

–Dana

UPDATE:

The three officers, Thomas Lane, 37, J. Alexander Kueng, 26, and Tou Thao, 34, were charged with aiding and abetting murder, court records show. Mr. Kueng was in custody on Wednesday, county jail records showed. The authorities said they were in the process of arresting Mr. Lane and Mr. Thao.

The fourth officer, Derek Chauvin, 44, who was arrested last week, faces an increased charge of second-degree murder.

Mr. Thao had faced six prior misconduct complaints in his career with the Minneapolis Police Department. He also was the subject of a lawsuit that claimed he and another officer punched, kicked and kneed an African-American man, leaving the man with broken teeth and bruises. A lawyer involved in the case said that the city settled the case by agreeing to pay $25,000.

Mr. Chauvin had faced at least 17 misconduct complaints over nearly two decades with the department.

Neither Mr. Lane nor Mr. Kueng had prior misconduct complaints filed against them, according to the police department.

“Trying this case will not be an easy thing,” [Keith Ellison] said. “Winning a conviction will be hard.”

He also called on protesters to continue peaceful demonstrations and to work toward more lasting change.

“The very fact we have filed these charges means we have believed in them,” Mr. Ellison said. “But what I do not believe is that one successful prosecution can rectify the hurt and loss that so many people feel.”

88 Responses to “AG To Announce Upgraded Charges Against Chauvin, Three Other Officers To Face Charges In George Floyd Killing (Update Added)”

  1. This is good.

    Dana (0feb77)

  2. It is good.

    It is also remarkable how slow the justice system moves when the country is not burning down.

    john (cd2753)

  3. No one has said this anywhere I can find, but Minnesota has no merger rule and felony murder is a second-degree murder in Minnesota. If you commit an assault with a reasonable probability that it will cause serious injury that causes serious injury, the assault can be a qualifying felony for murder.

    Or, everyone else is right and I am wrong. But I know which way I’d bet.

    JRM (de6363)

  4. Office Tao, who was filmed keeping the crowd away and could see and hear GF, was previously involved in the beating of a man who was never charged with any crime. The city paid 25K for to settle that.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  5. Ugh. I really hope this doesn’t turn out to be an overcharge. I just don’t know, but somehow I just don’t feel real good about this.

    Gryph (08c844)

  6. JRM,

    Can you expound on that? I want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. Thx.

    Dana (0feb77)

  7. 6. If I read him correctly, JRM is in a minority here, but I think what he’s saying is that the knee on the neck could be a felonious assault, and that may be why the charge was upgraded.

    Gryph (08c844)

  8. See: Minnesota AG Keith Ellison to up charge in George Floyd case to
    2nd Degree Murder, also charge other officers.
    https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/06/minnesota-ag-keith-ellison-to-up-charge-in-george-floyd-case-to-2nd-degree-murder-also-charge-other-officers/

    Note there the reference to the Ellison (then Representative Ellison) earlier tweet
    referencing/holding Antifa book. I believe he later pulled down the tweet or attempted
    to, similar to his efforts to shade his avid & long term association with Louis Farrakhan.

    Also recall how Maryland State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby mishandled the charging and
    prosecution of the Baltimore PD Officers in the Freddie Gray case. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/dec/18/failed-freddie-gray-prosecutor-marilyn-mosby-adds-/

    Similarly, also note how the case of Trayvon Martin was mishandled in the Joel Gilbert movie
    The Trayvon Hoax: Unmasking the Witness Fraud that Divided America (2019). https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/dec/18/failed-freddie-gray-prosecutor-marilyn-mosby-adds-/

    Liberty, Truth & Justice require constant vigilance. GLZ.

    Gary L. Zerman (a1521c)

  9. I think it’s going to turn out the Minnesota AG agrees with me. I’d bet the farm at this that it’s going to be felony murder. I actually put this in writing first two days ago, so I’m taking full credit if right.

    This is Minnesota law; Dana I can send you the case cites if you need them – email me at my email, which I think you can access.

    For a third degree murder, you need implied malice – doing something dangerous without caring about the outcome.

    For a second degree murder, you need either actual malice – willfully causing death – or committing a felony which (loosely speaking) caused the death. In this case, we don’t have to worry about the loosely speaking part. A felony assault is one likely to cause serious harm and that does cause serious harm.

    So: Implied malice murder, (third degree), need to do dangerous thing without caring about the outcome and cause death. Must subjectively know the thing is dangerous.

    Felony murder, need to do felony (which in this case is dangerous assault) and cause death, full stop.

    Now, I express no opinion on the correct result of any trial. But second degree murder on these facts is easier to prove; if you have an assaultive crime causing death in MN, and you charge third degree murder, you are unlikely to be doing it right.

    JRM (470cbb)

  10. Gryph: If it’s not a felony assault, it’s also not an implied malice murder in MN. If it was insufficiently dangerous for a felony assault, then it’s not murder either.

    Can anyone find any media which has talked about this? I wrote about it a couple days ago and it’s like the entire media inclusive of lawyers missed this.

    JRM (470cbb)

  11. Even with vigilance sometimes the lie persists in the face of truth:

    Matt Walsh
    @MattWalshBlog

    Keep in mind that after all this time, they still use Michael Brown as an example of an unarmed black man unjustly killed by cops. That officer was cleared by two forensic investigations, ballistics, multiple eye witnesses. Obama’s DOJ even cleared him. Yet the narrative persists
    __ _

    A black liberal reporter for the Washington Post even tried to get the real story out there (and he was vilified for it).

    ‘Hands up, don’t shoot’ was built on a lie

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  12. Minnesota AG Keith Ellison … (then Representative Ellison)

    Minnesota what are you doing to yourself?

    Just for reference; what every member of an organization that doesn’t exist needs: Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook. You can get the kindle edition because saving trees.

    Also, Jeremiah Ellison, who is a member of the Minneapolis City Council and the son of Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison tweeted on Sunday that he is declaring his support for Antifa

    “I hereby declare, officially, my support for ANTIFA,” Ellison said. “Unless someone can prove to me ANTIFA is behind the burning of black and immigrant owned businesses in my ward, I’ll keep focusing on stopping the white power terrorist THE ARE ACTUALLY ATTACKING US!”

    frosty (f27e97)

  13. harkin (9c4571) — 6/3/2020 @ 1:12 pm

    ‘Hands up, don’t shoot’ was built on a lie

    In some of the pictures of the protestors, I’ve noticed white guys doing the hands up don’t shoot sign. Those guys need to be very careful and make sure they always raise and lower both hands at the exact same time.

    frosty (f27e97)

  14. Re post #8 – CORRECTION. Re The Trayvon Hoax: Unmasking the
    Witness Fraud that Divided America (2019) – the link is wrong.
    Here is the correct link to the movie – The Trayvon Hoax: Unmasking the Witness Fraud that Divided America (2019). https://www.thetrayvonhoax.com/

    My error. I apologize. GLZ.

    Gary L. Zerman (a1521c)

  15. Sorry, but how can it be 2nd degree murder without intent? And how in the world did all 3 of the policeman “aid and abet” a murder when they didn’t even know Floyd was dying?

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  16. The only person who had a good handle on how badly floyd was doing was Chauvin, since he was on Top of Floyd. If you’re in a bar fight, and your friend has someone done on the floor, and tells you the Guy is Ok and don’t worry, does that mean if the other man dies, you’ve aided and abetted his murder?

    that doesn’t seem right.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  17. Anyway, like George Zimmermann or OJ, this will go to a Jury and God knows what they will do. It all depends on who gets on the Jury. Some people will find you guilty – no matter what. Or find you innocent – no matter what. To them, it all depends on who you are, not what you’ve done.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  18. We still don’t know exactly what was said during the arrest OR what the official autopsy report states.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  19. 10. I don’t like this charge enhancement. It feels more and more like politics, and less and less like justice.

    Gryph (08c844)

  20. https://mobile.twitter.com/Eric_Schmitt/status/1268195075953176576

    St Louis AG allowing every rioter back onto the street. No bail needed.

    Turnstile criminality.

    NJRob (d29ba6)

  21. The only person who had a good handle on how badly floyd was doing was Chauvin, since he was on Top of Floyd. If you’re in a bar fight, and your friend has someone done on the floor, and tells you the Guy is Ok and don’t worry, does that mean if the other man dies, you’ve aided and abetted his murder?

    that doesn’t seem right.

    rcocean (fcc23e) — 6/3/2020 @ 1:47 pm

    George Floyd was gasping that he couldn’t breath and begging for his mom. That’s clear on the video and one of the officers can be seen looking back at him. George goes limp and his eyes shut. Chavin continues to keep his knee on Floyd’s neck. The other office in the video stands there and keeps the crowd from interfering / rendering aid. Not sure what the legal liability is, but it doesn’t seem like nothing.

    If your analogy if you friend chokes a man unconscious and you keep someone from helping the unconscious man you’ve done something wrong.

    Why does it matter what was said during the arrest?

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  22. George Floyd was gasping that he couldn’t breath and begging for his mom.

    So what? that has nothing to do what i wrote.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  23. rcocean (fcc23e) — 6/3/2020 @ 1:45 pm

    Felony murder is how. If you’re driving the getaway car for a bank robbery and your crew goes in and kills a teller you may get upgraded to a felony murder charge. If the robbery goes off fine but as you’re speeding away you run over a guy crossing the street you and your crew may get a felony murder charge. If you and your buddy have a good plan for a strong-arm robbery and the victim has a heart attack I’m pretty sure you can get charged with felony murder. Felony murder only requires the intent to commit the underlying felony and that the death is a result of the felony. In some jurisdictions, if you and the police exchange shots and the police killed a bystander you can be charged with felony murder. The merger question gets at whether a felony assault can be the underlying felony for a murder. Usually, it isn’t.

    I’m not sure that is a slam dunk in this case but that’s a different question.

    frosty (f27e97)

  24. RC, you wrote

    The only person who had a good handle on how badly floyd was doing was Chauvin, since he was on Top of Floyd.

    The fact that they could see him and hear him gasping that he couldn’t breath and begging for his mom gives them the ability to have a handle (as you put it) on how badly Floyd was doing. Especially when they could see him lose consciousness 2+ minutes before chavin took his knee from his neck.

    Time123 (b0628d)

  25. Update added to post, including charges filed, and comments by AG Ellison.

    Dana (0feb77)

  26. @5 I also have some concern that politics might be playing too large a role here, but at the same time, I feel like politics were also playing too large a role at the beginning when there weren’t charges, it’s just a different set of political calculation. I hope that by the time it goes to trial, things will balance out.

    Nic (896fdf)

  27. In Minnesota, second-degree murder can still be charged if the killing is unintentional. The state’s sentencing guidelines indicate two different possibilities for second-degree murder, depending on whether it is intentional or not — the former calls for 25.5 years in prison upon conviction, whereas the latter calls for 12.5 years.

    Dana (0feb77)

  28. “The very fact we have filed these charges means we have believed in them,” Mr. Ellison said. “But what I do not believe is that one successful prosecution can rectify the hurt and loss that so many people feel.”

    Riots are good and the people of Minnesota should look forward to more.

    frosty (f27e97)

  29. Between the riots and the pandemic, rural living is becoming more attractive.

    norcal (a5428a)

  30. Gryph wrote:

    I don’t like this charge enhancement. It feels more and more like politics, and less and less like justice.

    What? Keith bin Ellison, getting all political? Surely not!

    Remember that local officials did not charge George Zimmerman in the killing of Trayvon Martin, because they found no evidence to dispute Mr Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense. After weeks of protests, Governor Rick Scott (R-FL) appointed a special persecutor, and he brought charges against Mr Zimmerman. Mr Zimmerman was quickly acquitted by a jury of six women, three black and three white, which not only vindicated the defendant but showed the stupidity of a politically motivated overriding of the local authorities.

    The Minneapolis authorities had a pretty much slam dunk case on third degree murder; now Mr bin Ellison has a higher bar to clear. He has taken a normal justice system case and made it a political one.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  31. norcal wrote:

    Between the riots and the pandemic, rural living is becoming more attractive.

    Eight acres, a livable if nevertheless fixer upper house, with 500 feet of river frontage, bordering the Daniel Boone National Forest, for $75,000. And no, I didn’t skip a zero in that figure. That’s my life, in eastern Kentucky.

    Oh, we have our problems: way too much drug use, and not a lot of good restaurants. For a decent grocery store, we’ve got to drive 22 miles to Richmond. But the sun is shining, the birds are singing, and if I forget to lock the doors at night, it doesn’t matter.

    I grew up in a small town, and couldn’t wait to get out to the ‘big’ city of Lexington. After 31 years in cities — Lexington, Hampton, Virginia and Wilmington, Delaware, I finally realized just how good I had it in a small town. After 15 years in a small town, we retired to our place in the country.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  32. Eight acres, a livable if nevertheless fixer upper house, with 500 feet of river frontage, bordering the Daniel Boone National Forest, for $75,000.

    You left out the most important part: the date of your purchase. If it was 1975, I’m not going to swoon.

    norcal (a5428a)

  33. 31. And if it’s a political case instead of a case of justice-in-dispute, all four will walk.

    Gryph (08c844)

  34. 28. When I speak of depraved-heart homicide, that’s not just Gryph trying to sound smart; that is the statutory definition of second-degree murder in Minnesota law. I think there is a real danger of overcharging in this case, particularly given so many citizens’ reflexive sympathy for police officers.

    Gryph (08c844)

  35. Can they include both charges and let the Jury decide?

    Time123 (b0628d)

  36. Tom Cotton: Send In the Troops
    This week, rioters have plunged many American cities into anarchy, recalling the widespread violence of the 1960s.

    New York City suffered the worst of the riots Monday night, as Mayor Bill de Blasio stood by while Midtown Manhattan descended into lawlessness. Bands of looters roved the streets, smashing and emptying hundreds of businesses. Some even drove exotic cars; the riots were carnivals for the thrill-seeking rich as well as other criminal elements.
    ….
    One thing above all else will restore order to our streets: an overwhelming show of force to disperse, detain and ultimately deter lawbreakers. But local law enforcement in some cities desperately needs backup, while delusional politicians in other cities refuse to do what’s necessary to uphold the rule of law.
    ….
    …..In these circumstances, the Insurrection Act authorizes the president to employ the military “or any other means” in “cases of insurrection, or obstruction to the laws.”

    This venerable law, nearly as old as our republic itself, doesn’t amount to “martial law” or the end of democracy, as some excitable critics, ignorant of both the law and our history, have comically suggested. In fact, the federal government has a constitutional duty to the states to “protect each of them from domestic violence.”

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  37. Sen. Paul acknowledges holding up anti-lynching bill, says he fears it would be wrongly applied
    Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) acknowledged Wednesday that he is holding up a bill with broad bipartisan support that would make lynching a federal hate crime, saying he fears it could allow enhanced penalties for altercations that result in only “minor bruising.”
    ……
    ….[He] claimed that the bill might “conflate lesser crimes with lynching,” which he said would be a “disservice to those who were lynched in our history” and result in “a new 10-year penalty for people who have minor bruising.”
    …..
    Paul’s office did not immediately respond to a request for elaboration on how the bill could apply to altercations that result in “minor bruising.”
    ……

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  38. Jim Mattis

    IN UNION THERE IS STRENGTH

    I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.

    When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.

    We must reject any thinking of our cities as a “battlespace” that our uniformed military is called upon to “dominate.” At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.

    James Madison wrote in Federalist 14 that “America united with a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a hundred thousand veterans ready for combat.” We do not need to militarize our response to protests. We need to unite around a common purpose. And it starts by guaranteeing that all of us are equal before the law.

    Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that “The Nazi slogan for destroying us…was ‘Divide and Conquer.’ Our American answer is ‘In Union there is Strength.’” We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.

    Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.

    We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln’s “better angels,” and listen to them, as we work to unite.

    Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  39. BIDEN NOW FAVORED: PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION ODDS DAILY TRACKER
    Biden is now favored to win the general election for the first time. He moved to -110 Wednesday while Trump dropped to +105 amid national unrest. It’s the first time Trump has trailed any candidate in 2020, with the President dropping from -114 odds less than a week ago. The two candidates were briefly tied at -110 in the aftermath of Biden’s dominant Super Tuesday showing, but the former Vice President has steadily built momentum in recent weeks.

    It seems Trump’s words and actions, or lack thereof, in dealing with nationwide protests has played the biggest part. Threatening to deploy U.S. troops to help control protesters was perhaps the most chilling moment of his Presidency to date, and new details continue to emerge regarding the forcible clearing of peaceful demonstrators so he could have a photo op.
    ……

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  40. Shameful statement by Mattis, undermining the country… in the Atlantic, no less.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  41. @41 What, other than the 3 lines about Trump, do you think is shameful about Mattis’ statement?

    Nic (896fdf)

  42. Shameful actions by Trump, undermining the country…in the White House no less.

    Fixed it for ya.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  43. No one has said this anywhere I can find, but Minnesota has no merger rule and felony murder is a second-degree murder in Minnesota. If you commit an assault with a reasonable probability that it will cause serious injury that causes serious injury, the assault can be a qualifying felony for murder.

    Or, everyone else is right and I am wrong. But I know which way I’d bet.

    FWIW, JRM, I had the exact same thought just after hearing the news.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  44. General Mattis is a great American who well understands the role of the military in American society.
    You can tell the breaking point was Trump’s sickening photo op in front of St. John’s Episcopal, using military leadership as political props, and he wasn’t happy with military leadership that went along with it.

    Paul Montagu (466a99)

  45. In Illinois, murder is a general intent crime. If you commit an act with a strong probability that it will cause death or great bodily harm to the individual who is killed or to another, it is first degree murder.

    nk (1d9030)

  46. Seen on Facebook
    A meme captioned Challenge: stand in front of a building you never go to while holding up a book you never read.
    Illustration is a photo of a completely hardheaded man holding up a book by Trump standing in front of a Hair Cuttery.

    Kishnevi (eaa946)

  47. Baldheaded, not hardheaded.

    With this phone I get to blame autocorrect.

    Kishnevi (eaa946)

  48. From what I’ve read, the reason why the charges against Chauvin were not elevated to 1st degree murder is because that charge requires premeditation. 2nd degree murder requires malicious intent or willful neglect.

    All four of these officers face a maximum sentence of 40 years in prison. If convicted, they most likely will be place in protective custody, because in general population they no doubt would be shanked and killed in a matter of days by black inmates. Not even the Arian Brotherhood could protect them. That would be a death sentence.

    Anyway, an actress is being roundly criticized for posting side by side pictures of Hitler holding a book and Trump holding the Bible.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8382017/Debra-Messing-faces-backlash-photoshopped-image-linking-Donald-Trump-Adolph-Hitler.html

    The Hitler picture is obviously photo-shopped, but that was done years ago. It’s been in circulation for a long while. Still, the images are eerily similar.

    NO, I am not comparing Trump to Hitler. Hitler was far more competent. As evil as he was, he knew how to give a speech, rouse a nation, dominate with force, build a military, and start a war. Hell, he damn near conquered all of Europe.

    Trump is incapable of that. The United States now (or ever) are not Weimar Germany then. Yet, he considers calling up the Insurrection Act, deploying the military against citizen protests, and calling for domination.

    He doesn’t get it. That’s what these protests are all about, police brutality and racism. In a way, he’s threatening to do to peaceful protesters exactly what Chauvin did to Floyd, put a knee on their neck, until they’re dead.

    Biden will be attending the funeral of George Floyd next week in Houston. Will Trump? No. Has Trump even called the Floyd family to offer his condolences? No. The “law and order” president keeps tweeting about further suppression and military domination over American citizens.

    It’s like he’s endorsing what Chauvin did, rather than condemning it.

    Rioting, looting, vandalism are for civilian authorities to take control of. They haven’t done a very good job at that, I will admit. But this civil unrest is not easy to quell.

    Everyone keeps calling is systemic racism. But I think that’s the wrong term. I would call it institutional inequality.

    That’s what these protests are all about. The vandals, the thieves, are just taking advantage of the protests to riot and loot. They’re hiding within the crowds, until they can commit their crimes under the cover of night, when there is no police presence.

    Trump’s response to this crisis is to call out the military and dominate. He has no sympathy for the Floyd family or the thousands of businesses that have been destroyed, as a result of his incompetent dealing with the pandemic. And everything else.

    Talk about a failure of leadership.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  49. Trump called the Floyd family. Trump said he talked to them. George’s brother has been quoted as saying that Trump did all the talking, and would not let the family say anything.

    Kishnevi (eaa946)

  50. In this stage of dementia, they can totally fake normalcy with a prepared script and familiar exchanges. Unexpected questions or changes in conversation faze them.

    nk (1d9030)

  51. Gawain,

    have you said a single word about the cops murdered, cops shot, cops run over since rioting began? Has anyone? Does anyone care anymore or is it just about bashing Trump?

    NJRob (4d595c)

  52. “ Sorry, but how can it be 2nd degree murder without intent? And how in the world did all 3 of the policeman “aid and abet” a murder when they didn’t even know Floyd was dying?”

    – rcocean

    The answer is “statutes.”

    Leviticus (3eb64b)

  53. “ The Minneapolis authorities had a pretty much slam dunk case on third degree murder; now Mr bin Ellison has a higher bar to clear.”

    – The Dana in Kentucky

    If JRM is right, the point is that 2nd degree murder may be easier to prove that 3rd degree murder, here – a lower bar to clear.

    Leviticus (3eb64b)

  54. JRM (470cbb) — 6/3/2020 @ 1:04 pm 9. Felony murder, need to do felony (which in this case is dangerous assault) and cause death, full stop.

    They idea would be that at some point Chauvin ceased acting as a policeman.

    rcocean (fcc23e) — 6/3/2020 @ 1:47 pm

    If you’re in a bar fight, andyour friend has someone done on the floor, and tells you the Guy is Ok and don’t worry, does that mean if the other man dies, you’ve aided and abetted his murder?

    that doesn’t seem right.

    Two of the three policemen were helping to keep him down. But then why the third? So the theory has to be they could have stopped him. Or that they stopped anybody else from interfering.

    But consider this case: A doctor is about to do something bad. An aide or nurse questions him. The doctor says it is OK. If the person subsequently dies, did the aide or nurse aid and abet the murder? What if their help was needed?

    25. Time123 (b0628d) — 6/3/2020 @ 2:11 pm

    The fact that they could see him and hear him gasping that he couldn’t breath

    The problem was that George Floyd was doing that earlier also. He probably was faking it at that stage, and they knew it because he wanted to be taken to a hospital. Some fentany was found in his blood (important caveat: if that is accurate) and if he was going to go cold turkey he wanted to do it in a hospital, not in a police precinct or in a jail.

    To the police, the possibility of an opioid withdrawal would not be a grounds for going to a hospital, so he had to create another reason. He prepared for it in a two minute conversation with Lane, and you can see Lane worries.

    and begging for his mom

    Chauvin mighhht have disconnted that.

    gives them the ability to have a handle (as you put it) on how badly Floyd was doing.

    I don;t think anyone in the crowd quite understood.

    Especially when they could see him lose consciousness 2+ minutes before chavin took his knee from his neck.

    And no pulse was reported too. This was definitely not malingering any more. Besides what did it hurt to check? What did it hurt even to leave him stay for awhile outside the car?

    Sammy Finkelman (a1e8fb)

  55. Gawain,

    have you said a single word about the cops murdered, cops shot, cops run over since rioting began? Has anyone? Does anyone care anymore or is it just about bashing Trump?

    It’s an elixir… it’ll rejuvenate your sense of self-worth and whiten your teeth.

    A sign of the times.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  56. Gawain,

    have you said a single word about the cops murdered, cops shot, cops run over since rioting began? Has anyone? Does anyone care anymore or is it just about bashing Trump?

    NJRob (4d595c) — 6/3/2020 @ 9:45 pm

    I don’t know what to say about these things beyond that people who committed these crimes should be arrested and prosecuted. They shouldn’t be used to define the totality of the protest any more than Chavin defines all LEO. I want the leaders that have influence over the protesters to push back against the violent, the rioter, and the looters.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  57. norcal pointed out:

    Eight acres, a livable if nevertheless fixer upper house, with 500 feet of river frontage, bordering the Daniel Boone National Forest, for $75,000.

    You left out the most important part: the date of your purchase. If it was 1975, I’m not going to swoon.

    Purchased in September of 2014. We rented it to someone else until our move down here in July of 2017.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  58. Time123 (69b2fc) — 6/4/2020 @ 5:16 am

    Well said!

    Dave (1bb933)

  59. I don’t know what to say about these things beyond that people who committed these crimes should be arrested and prosecuted. They shouldn’t be used to define the totality of the protest any more than Chavin defines all LEO. I want the leaders that have influence over the protesters to push back against the violent, the rioter, and the looters.

    Time123 (69b2fc) — 6/4/2020 @ 5:16 am

    Thank you for acknowledging they exist. I’ve posted link after link about cops being attacked, shot and killed without response and it’s the real world, not the theoretical one people keep wishing exists. That needs to be taken into consideration when discussing an officer’s life.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  60. so shahaab ellison, wants an acquittal, or at least a hung jury, that’s the result of the over charging,

    narciso (7404b5)

  61. Thank you for acknowledging they exist. I’ve posted link after link about cops being attacked, shot and killed without response and it’s the real world, not the theoretical one people keep wishing exists. That needs to be taken into consideration when discussing an officer’s life.

    You’re absolutely right. I’ve seen those links and followed a few. I didn’t reply because “that’s terrible I hope the people that did it are brought to justice.” feels lacking.

    Time123 (80b471)

  62. Why would Ellison want an acquittal or a hung jury? Were any of them his national security advisor or campaign manager, or have Kim Kardashian rooting for them?

    nk (1d9030)

  63. But consider this case: A doctor is about to do something bad. An aide or nurse questions him. The doctor says it is OK. If the person subsequently dies, did the aide or nurse aid and abet the murder? What if their help was needed?

    what happened here is Chauvin did something wrong but there doesn’t seem to be (more evidence could prove this wrong) an INTENT to kill Floyd. Perhaps the DA will argue Chauvin KNEW Floyd was unresponsive and waited 2 minutes DELIBERARELY before calling for Medical assistance.

    We still don’t know (or do we?) why Chauvin decided on this risky knee on the neck maneuver, or why he kept on him for 8 minutes. I guess we’ll learn at the trial. The other two policeman were Junior to Chauvin and probably deferred to his judgement and ASSUMED he knew what he was doing. Just like a nurse would defer to the Doctor despite questioning his actions in her mind. I noticed one of the other policeman asked Chauvin if they should move Floyd to his side, and Chauvin said no.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  64. Is this knee on the neck maneuver, illegal or against the Police rules? It doesn’t seem to be. This differs from the NYC Cigarette guy’s death, because the policeman deliberately jumped on the man’s back and applied an illegal choke hold.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  65. 50.

    George Floyd had coronavirus

    He tested positive in April, )consider where he worked) which means that by May 25, he probably no longer had an active case, although this goes away very slowly, because the virus hibernates in some cells. I read something about one theory being fat cells.

    George Floyd should not have been infectious. The post mortem PCR test may have detected whatwere only viral fragments. At that point, his blood may not have been more ready to clot than usual. There’s a test for that, but most likely he never had it.

    Criminally, it doesn’t matter, because someone who assaults someone takes his victim as he finds him.

    George Floyd did not die because his lungs were squeezed. He died either because his windpipe was compressed and/or because blood flow was cut off to his brain. Maybe something may have happened a few minutes into the event. There could have been a slight shifting of position which made things worse.

    One big question: What was Derek Chauvin waiting for??

    You could have a suspicion that he was waiting for him to die.

    Sammy Finkelman (07f19d)

  66. it’s still police practice, in minneapolis, not in the rest of the state,

    narciso (7404b5)

  67. I would like to know what chauvin was thinking, but that would require a competent prosecutor,

    narciso (7404b5)

  68. Sammy Finkelman (07f19d) — 6/4/2020 @ 8:26 am

    You could have a suspicion that he was waiting for him to die.

    This is my suspicion.

    frosty (f27e97)

  69. because he is the black blocs man ‘the worse the better’

    narciso (7404b5)

  70. If Floyd had been resisting, Chauvin could have been waiting for Floyd to stop moving.

    DRJ (15874d)

  71. 66. rcocean (2e1c02) — 6/4/2020 @ 7:27 am

    We still don’t know (or do we?) why Chauvin decided on this risky knee on the neck maneuver, or why he kept on him for 8 minutes. I guess we’ll learn at the trial.

    Not necessarily or even likely. He has a right not to to testify, guaranteed by the 5th amendment to the United States constitution, and it probably wouldn’t be a good idea for him to try to explain himself. He’s already been fired and his wife left him.

    I noticed one of the other policeman asked Chauvin if they should move Floyd to his side, and Chauvin said no.

    Twice. Once before he stopped breathing and once after.

    See the first sidebar on the right (with the very light blue background) entitled: The Criminal Complaint:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8370537/Minneapolis-police-officer-Derek-Chavin-taken-custody.html

    Chauvin and Thoa arrived on the scene and the four officers tried to get Floyd into the squad car, it states, adding that Floyd ‘struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still’.

    Floyd began telling the officers he could not breathe while standing outside the car, the report states.

    Chauvin then tried to get Floyd into the passenger side of the car before pulling him out of the car moments later.

    ‘My. Floyd went to the ground face down and still handcuffed. Kueng held Mr. Floyd’s back and Lane held his legs. The defendant placed his left knee in the area of Mr. Floyd’s head and neck,’ it reads.

    Floyd is heard saying ‘I can’t breathe’, ‘Mama’ and ‘please’ multiple times but Chauvin, Kueng and Lane maintain their positions on his body and tell him ‘You are talking fine’, the report notes.

    Lane then suggests rolling Floyd onto his side but Chauvin says ‘No, staying put where we got him’.

    ‘Officer Lane said, ‘I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.’ The defendant said , ‘That’s why we have him on his stomach.’ None of the three officers moved from their positions,’ the report adds.

    Floyd then stops moving at 8:24:24 and at 8:25:31 he appears to stop breathing and speaking, it notes.

    Lane again suggests rolling Floyd onto his side but none of the cops move position. Kueng checked his right wrist for a pulse and said ‘I couldn’t find one’ but all the officers maintained their position, the report adds.

    Chauvin finally moved his knee from Floyd’s neck at 8:27:24 and he was taken away in an ambulance, 8 minutes and 46 seconds after he first held it on his neck and two minutes and 53 seconds after Floyd became unresponsive, the complaint states.

    Sammy Finkelman (3015b5)

  72. SF: You could have a suspicion that he was waiting for him to die.

    frosty (f27e97) — 6/4/2020 @ 8:59 am

    This is my suspicion.

    Could Floyd testify against him, on something?

    Another question: Did Chauvin know he was being recorded?

    Sammy Finkelman (3015b5)

  73. Sammy Finkelman (3015b5) — 6/4/2020 @ 10:09 am

    Could Floyd testify against him, on something?

    Another question: Did Chauvin know he was being recorded?

    These are all very good questions. I originally thought this was simply indifference. I’m not as convinced of that now. My suspicion is that he didn’t know he was being recorded but that’s probably because I’m now biased to think there is a little more going on here.

    If he knew he was being recorded that would argue for negligence or indifference and not malice.

    frosty (f27e97)

  74. There was a man and a woman in the same car with Floyd. When he was hustled out of the car by police, they simply scurried away. The police paid no attention to them, since they hadn’t used the counterfeit bill.

    Sammy Finkelman (3015b5)

  75. 76. frosty (f27e97) — 6/4/2020 @ 10:21 am

    If he knew he was being recorded that would argue for negligence or indifference and not malice.

    But if he didn’t know he was being recorded, it would tend to support intentional murder, because without video he could figure he could cover it up.

    Sammy Finkelman (3015b5)

  76. Mr Snowman wrote:

    You could have a suspicion that he was waiting for him to die. (Mr Finkelman)

    This is my suspicion.

    Then it’s an insanity defense.

    Seriously: Officer Chauvin actively trying to kill Mr Floyd would be an utterly insane act. He knew that he was being recorded, and he knew that every death at the hands of the police is investigated, and he knew that killing Mr Floyd would have a seriously negative impact on his life and career. Nothing good could have come from him intentionally killing Mr Floyd.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  77. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    If he knew he was being recorded that would argue for negligence or indifference and not malice. (Mr Snowman)

    But if he didn’t know he was being recorded, it would tend to support intentional murder, because without video he could figure he could cover it up.

    Every police officer knows that cell phones with good cameras are almost ubiquitous out there. They have to assume that they are being recorded, everywhere, at all times. If a police officer does not assume this, he is stupid.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  78. The cops who beat Kelly Thomas to death in Orange County knew they were being recorded. By their own wires and by a pole camera.

    See, those cops, the bad ones, their insurance policy ain’t no stinking qualified immunity. It’s not even the police union which will put out millions for their bail and lawyers. It’s the Blue Wall (their fellow officers covering up for them), and prosecutors who will either not charge them at all or, if they are forced to charge them, will throw the trial.

    nk (1d9030)

  79. The Minneapolis Four, they were just unlucky.

    nk (1d9030)

  80. Have any of you ever been Swatted? I have. Well, not me personally, but my friend Ray and I was with him at the time.

    Early 80s, Austin, I was attending The University. Ray was a friend of mine, because we both came from the Rio Grande Valley. He had a pure bred white American pit bull named Hombres. We hung out together on weekends.

    One Saturday morning we were kicking back, drinking coffee and smoking, watching The Little Rascals on TV. I said, “You know, Hombres looks a lot like Petey, except he doesn’t have a black ring around his eye.”

    So Ray got a black magic marker, I held Hombres’s head, and he drew a black ring around his eye. Then we put him on a leash, with a red bandana around his neck, and took him for a walk at Zilker Park.

    We were just walking a dog, and this guy came up and offered us $20 to take a picture of his children with Hombres/Petey. Then all of these other people came up, offering us money to take a picture of their children and Hombres/Petey. By the end of the afternoon, we had over $200.

    Wow, free money, for walking a dog. What are we going to do with this money? Blow it on Sixth Street of course. Hit the clubs, pick up coeds. It was the 80s.

    So we made a plan. Every Saturday morning, we would dress up Hombres and take him for a walk through the park. People would just come up and give us money to take a picture of their children with Hombres/Petey. Couple of hundred dollars every afternoon, hit the clubs, pick up coeds. It was brilliant, and it worked for months.

    One Saturday, we had just finished dressing up Hombres when there was this loud knock on the door. “Police!” They kicked the door open and stormed in with full tactical gear. “Sit down! Restrain that dog!” We were bewildered, had no idea, what was going on, but we complied.

    We sat on the couch, holding Hombres, with guns pointed at us, while these guys tore the house apart. They literally tore the whole house apart. Every drawer, cabinet, the refrigerator, every closet, they even flipped over the bed!

    All they found was an old short barrel shotgun with a pistol grip and a brass knuckle knife that Ray had inherited from his grandfather, who had fought in WW I. They confiscated those and left, without explanation.

    We’re sitting there thinking, WTF just happened? The door is broken, the whole house is torn apart, left in ruin, all to seize some WW I relics.

    It took us a couple of weeks to figure it out. Ray had picked up some coed on one of our jaunts, dated her for a short while, then broke up with her. Why not? There’s always another coed to pick up on Saturday night.

    She had called an anonymous tip line and said Ray was a major cocaine dealer. That’s all it takes, an anonymous call to a tip line, and suddenly storm troopers are bursting into your house and tearing it apart.

    Does anyone not have a problem with that? We weren’t cocaine dealers. We were dog walkers. Yet the house is torn apart.

    The landlord has to pay for all of the repairs, because the police have, you know, qualified immunity. They were acting on an anonymous tip, so they can do whatever they want, without consequence.

    It happens all the time, sometimes with deadly results. Police break into a house with a warrant for a drug search, and shoot and kill innocent civilians. And it’s the wrong house! Or the anonymous tip was a lie.

    Does anyone not have a problem with that?

    There is a deep and serious problem with law enforcement. I don’t blame the police. I blame the law.

    Unless and until you’ve been held at gun point, while the house around you is torn apart, you can’t possibly understand.

    I have the utmost respect for police officers and deputies. In fact, I have several friends who are officers and deputies; I go to the shooting range with them. This because about ten years ago, I was doing an inspection on a repossessed home seized by the US Marshalls and the DEA. And let me tell you, those guys can do a real number on a house. It had been stripped down to the concrete floor and ripped apart; there was nothing left but the exterior walls. If there were any drugs or money there, they seized it. What was left was a shell of a house.

    I’m standing in the street taking pictures, and these guys came out of the house across the street behind me, carrying assault rifles, and asked or demanded to know what I was doing. I almost pissed my pants, but I told them, in broken Spanish, “El banko saca lo, y yo vendo lo.” (The bank took it, and I sell it.) They turned around and went back into their house.

    Whew! I finished my inspection, and when I got back to the office, I called the US Marshalls. Hey, there’s this gang with guns across the street from that house you seized.

    That resulted in two days of interrogations with the US Marshalls, the DEA, the ATF, the FBI, and the Texas Rangers. What could I tell them? I’d never been to this house before, didn’t know who owned it, didn’t know anything about these guys from across the street.

    What would you do in a situation like that? Well, I made friends with a couple of deputies, and we regularly go to the gun range for shooting practice. I don’t have a concealed carry license. What I do have is friends in law enforcement, so that the next time I’m in a jam, they’re just a phone call away. And they will respond.

    I respect these men. They look out for me. These are good men. Absolutely, I condemn any and all assaults against them.

    At the same time, I cannot excuse police brutality. That’s what these protests are all about.

    It is a legitimate protest. But these innocent protestors are unknowingly providing cover for vandals and looters, criminals.

    This whole thing has become an ugly mess.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  81. That’s a great comment/post, GG.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  82. @83 Great comment GG

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  83. GG/83:

    You experience sounds awful. Some technical items:

    An anonymous tip isn’t enough to get a warrant without some corroboration.

    Also, this isn’t “Swatting” in the usual sense. It’s still awful.

    Finally, I thought this was going to end poorly for Hombre, and I’m glad it didn’t.

    I note that I have been surrounded and ordered down at gunpoint by a large number of police officers; they did very well with the whole thing. Your situation was much worse.

    JRM (de6363)

  84. Well, JRM, it happened. And they didn’t have a warrant. Or if they did, they didn’t show it to us. They just burst in, held us at gunpoint, and tore the house apart, then left.

    It was really scary. We hadn’t committed any crime. There were no drugs in the house. All we did was dress up Hombres as Petey and take him for a walk around the park. People would just come up and give us money to take a picture of their kids with a dog. Little Rascals nostalgia, I suppose.

    Actually, at the time, we had been talking about starting a small business. I said, hey man, instead of blowing all this money on clubs and coeds, why don’t we save it? Rent a small office, set up a photo shop, and advertise “Pictures with Petey.” Instead of taking Hombres to the park, why not have people bring their children to us? It would have been a short-term venture of course, but we were already making a couple of hundred dollars every weekend, maybe we could make more.

    It was, as they say, just a pipe dream, but it could have worked. That dream ended when Austin Swat burst through the door.

    And for what? Because some random coed couldn’t handle that Ray had dumped her?

    It goes to the real problem with the law, which is the War on Drugs. All it takes is suspicion or an accusation. And the police burst in, tear the house apart. No warrant necessary. Hell, they could have even seized the landlord’s property under asset seizure.

    That’s a real problem. There have been multiple incidents of that. This middle-age couple, who owned a small business, had all of all of their assets seized–their business, their home, their bank accounts–because their young son, in college, had been arrested for possession of a quarter ounce of marijuana.

    This is insane. The state presumed that all of their assets were from profits by their drug-dealing son. He was just a kid in college, smoking some weed. Yet the police seized everything, bankrupted the family.

    That’s just wrong. The parents had committed no crime. All they did was start a small business, and send their son to college. He was arrested in possession of a small amount of marijuana, and suddenly everything is taken away.

    They have no recourse. The charges are filed against the property and assets, not the individuals.

    Do you not see how that works? Property and assets have no individual rights. So they can be seized without warrant, under suspicion alone.

    We need to take a step back and take a look at law enforcement. The problem is not with the officers, it’s with the law. Until we address that issue, nothing will change.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  85. There is no way these policemen will get a fair trial in minneapolis,
    These prosecutors will have to find a jurisdiction outside the Twin Cities to carry out a trial.
    What that probably means it that they will have trouble getting a conviction , especially is several months have elapsed.The most probable outcome may be a “not guilty” verdict, followed by a cash settlmemt to the police officers. Shame. There were some good reasons to justify a manslaughter verdict, with depraved indifference, but lynching may not be as popular a many seem to believe.

    john Morrissey (ecf9a2)


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