Patterico's Pontifications

4/6/2020

Acting Secretary of Navy Calls Fired Captain of Aircraft Carrier “Naive” or “Stupid”

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:28 am



Everyone is “acting” these days. Doesn’t seem very constitutional, but I guess Trump likes acting. Here’s one reason why: they go out and say Trumpy things like this:

The Acting Secretary of the Navy Thomas Modly blasted the now ousted commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt as “stupid” in an address to the ship’s crew Monday morning, in remarks obtained by CNN.

Modly told the crew that their former commander, Capt. Brett Crozier, was either “too naive or too stupid” to be in command or that he intentionally leaked to the media a memo in which he warned about coronavirus spreading aboard the aircraft carrier and urged action to save his sailors.

While Modly has publicly refrained from accusing Crozier of leaking the letter to the media in his address to the ship’s crew, the acting secretary accused Crozier of committing a “betrayal” and creating a “big controversy” in Washington by disseminating the warning so widely.

“It was a betrayal. And I can tell you one other thing: because he did that he put it in the public’s forum and it is now a big controversy in Washington, DC,” Modly said, according to a transcript of remarks Modly made to the crew, copies of which have been provided to CNN by multiple Navy officials.

. . . .

Modly’s use of the word “betrayal” is a loaded [term] because saying an officer has betrayed the Navy is a court martial offense. [I think CNN means an officer betraying the Navy is an offense that can lead to court martial, but you knew what they meant.]

A defense official familiar with Modly’s remarks offered his opinion of Modly’s address, saying the acting secretary “should be fired. I don’t know how he survives this day.”

I’ll tell you how he survives. Trump won’t fire him unless the media pressure forces him to, because he agrees with this point of view — because to him, the public perception is more important than the safety of the sailors. Full stop.

Here’s how the sailors felt about the captain who cared about their safety more than he cared about his career.

(By the way, that’s not great social distancing, fellas.)

I’m sure it was great for their morale to have some Trump stooge call their beloved captain naive or stupid for trying to protect them.

163 Responses to “Acting Secretary of Navy Calls Fired Captain of Aircraft Carrier “Naive” or “Stupid””

  1. Sickening.

    Leviticus (c68ea0)

  2. I understand why he had to be fired. Hell, *he* probably understood why he had to be fired, and he did it anyway, because he considered it his responsibility to his men.

    I don’t understand how anyone could think that, to his men, he’d be anything other than a hero, and attacking someone’s hero *to their face* is rarely a good idea.

    aphrael (7962af)

  3. Can someone explain to me why Crozier was justified in making this public, instead of making a fuss with his own superior officers? Did he try that, and get no response?

    I’ve seen no information on that side of the matter.

    Kishnevi (51ad16)

  4. This is a sad issue, but on this one I think the Captain had to be removed. This is an insight into a major national security problem that is probably impacting most of the Navy in particular.

    I do not subscribe to theories that this virus is some kind of deliberate action, but knowing that you can level the playing field against the US Navy is not something Captains should be broadcasting. There’s no doubt in my mind that Captain Crozier knew the expectation of secrecy and discretion.

    I’m not saying the Trump administration’s (particularly Mr. Modly’s) commentary is appropriate. It’s not. This is a man who was trying to protect the lives of his sailors at personal cost. The administration should have strived to show an example of the discretion and professionalism it expected of Crozier.

    But still, this problem should have been kept in-the-family, with Navy and DoD leadership, as it is definitely being addressed by most of the military right now. That sucks but it would suck a lot more if we were challenged militarily right now. The perception that we have our s*** together will deter the bad guys.

    A lot of our enemies do not value human life the way we do and will see this a lot differently than we do.

    The actual problem at the heart of this, how you stop the spread of disease on a ship… that’s a big damn problem. Ideally you could just make islands of all ships, and avoid all contact. This seems like a massive intel failure.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  5. I think we lack full information here – what was the history of trying to get the information?

    My best guess is that aphrael has it exactly right.

    JRM (de6363)

  6. attacking someone’s hero *to their face* is rarely a good idea.

    aphrael (7962af) — 4/6/2020 @ 8:46 am

    I agree. They could have made a statement that they respect where he is coming from but operational security applies to every rank because that also saves sailor lives. Not ‘he’s stupid! Betrayal!’ like they were code pink. Picking fights where they don’t need to.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  7. Can someone explain to me why Crozier was justified in making this public

    I don’t think he did. The acting Secretary’s beef appears to be that he sent it to enough people that he had to know it would go public.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  8. The kind of leaders who can command an American aircraft carrier (and battle group, often) do not grow on trees.

    The attrition during the T-rump debacle will be felt for years.

    (Social distancing on a carrier is pretty hard, but imagine it on a sub.)

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  9. But still, this problem should have been kept in-the-family, with Navy and DoD leadership

    Was it not? Did Crozier send it to others?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  10. I’d love a link that shows he sent it outside his chain.

    I know he jumped the chain of command and they don’t like that, but outside of his having copied 20+ people (whose identities I have not seen, much less whether they were also in the chain of command) I have seen nothing saying he took it public. But I may well have missed something.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  11. Sorry, guys. Crozier is not a good guy. He is no hero. He is no martyr. He is a mini-Trump.

    He let coronavirus aboard his ship. A carrier. A flagship. He should have expected to be relieved of his command for that (but who knows with the kind of Commander in Chief we have these days). Then he broadcast a “Baby Trump” letter deflecting responsibility from himself and blaming the Navy (not that he was necessarily wrong with the kind of Commander in Chief we have these days).

    In sum, I see it as the fish rotting from the head down and Crozier being part of the rot.

    God help America.

    nk (1d9030)

  12. Bollocks, nk!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  13. Several vets have said that the captain violated the chain of command by writing the 4-page memo, and then “leaking” it, instead of going directly to his immediate superior. Had he reported the ship Non-Mission Ready in SORTS, then his decision wouldn’t have been able to be changed by superiors.

    If CPT Crozier can show that he went up the chain to CINCPAC etc. and didn’t get help, then by all means he did what he had to do.
    My understanding is that he did not characterize his situation accurately until his shotgunned email made it to civilian press.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  14. Here’s my take, based on what I’ve read of the situation.

    Captain Crozier had 2 good objectives in conflict.
    -Get his men help.
    -Respect the chain of command and avoid making the situation into a scandal.

    A good solution would have been for Captain Crozier to escalate the needs of his men without the problem becoming a major news story.

    He failed to find a good solution. He did find a solution to the problem of getting his men help. IMO he picked the ‘least bad’, but that’s not the same as winning. It’s possible that he did everything correctly and was in a no win situation. I suspect that he was. But he was the captain of an aircraft carrier. I’m comfortable holding them to very high standard.

    His command is accountable however for putting him in a situation where he didn’t have a good option.

    Time123 (36651d)

  15. Telling something to twenty people is guaranteed to make it public in an administration that leaks the President’s telephone calls with foreign heads of state. I don’t think Crozier is that naive. I think he knew it was going to appear in the media and soon.

    nk (1d9030)

  16. My understanding is that Cpt. Crozier’s memo didn’t just go up his chain of command. It may have stayed in the larger department of defense, but that’s not very secure. It’s unfair to liken this to leaking it to the press. I do think the memo is written with the general public as its audience. It just comes across that way. The general public really shouldn’t get to know about this specific problem while it’s happening because that means larger problems for the Navy.

    I just think this information that the ship is in this state was sufficiently serious that it needed to be kept private.

    I can only imagine the frustration of waiting for the people to listen. I’ve had chains of command that don’t listen. It’s maddening.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  17. Several vets have said that the captain violated the chain of command by writing the 4-page memo, and then “leaking” it,

    So I know he jumped the chain of command by sending it past his immediate superior.

    Is there a link to proof that he “leaked” it (which I interpret as sending to the media as opposed to higher-ups in the chain of command)? It seems to me that the acting Secretary’s reproach implicitly assumes someone else leaked it, and that Crozier was not a leaker but someone who should have known someone else would. But again, maybe there is a published account that says I’m wrong?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  18. If you don’t blame Crozier for letting coronavirus put his ship (a carier, a flagship) out of commission and then crying like a baby about it, then you can’t blame Trump for doing the same thing to America.

    nk (1d9030)

  19. Can someone explain to me why Crozier was justified in making this public

    I don’t think he did. The acting Secretary’s beef appears to be that he sent it to enough people that he had to know it would go public.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 4/6/2020 @ 8:56 am

    I think at his rank its appropriate to hold him accountable for clearly foreseeable second order responses. Sending a provocatively worded letter to a wide distribution without marking it classified in some way makes it highly likely that it would go public. If he’s smart enough to run an Aircraft Carrier he’s smart enough to know that.

    I don’t think many professionals above middle management would send a controversial email to 20+ people and expect it not to go further. I know I wouldn’t.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  20. If you don’t blame Crozier for letting coronavirus put his ship (a carier, a flagship) out of commission and then crying like a baby about it, then you can’t blame Trump for doing the same thing to America.

    Sorry, that’s nuts. The two situations are not comparable in any way.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  21. Also, how much danger were the crew and vessels put in by having the ship’s weakened state made public? It seems like that would have, or should have been a vital concern of the Captain.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  22. I’d love a link that shows he sent it outside his chain.

    I know he jumped the chain of command

    If he only went to the top or ‘too high’ in his chain of command, went out of order, then I don’t think he should even be in trouble, let alone relieved.

    Secretary Modly claims he sent it outside his chain of command.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  23. @17, I think people are saying ‘leaked’ when they mean ‘wrote and released it expecting it to be leaked’. The distinction is clear, but I think it’s a distinction with very little difference.

    Time123 (36651d)

  24. I don’t believe Modly when he said he didn’t feel pressure from above to fire Crozier. The glandular suddenness of the firing has all the hallmarks of a Trump decision.
    It’s not as if removal was the only option for Crozier, but the captain made Trump look bad by the leak of the letter, so he had to go, just like a certain IG made Trump look bad.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  25. I’m sure it was great for their morale to have some Trump stooge call their beloved captain naive or stupid for trying to protect them.

    … while the captain, himself, is currently afflicted with a potentially fatal disease.

    He let coronavirus aboard his ship. A carrier. A flagship. He should have expected to be relieved of his command for that (but who knows with the kind of Commander in Chief we have these days).

    They got the germ from a port call in Vietnam in mid February, when there were only a handful of known cases there, all in a different part of the country. As captain, he doesn’t decide where his ship is ordered to go, and at the same time, his Commander in Chief was saying it was the flu and would magically go away.

    From what I understand, they handled the matter properly, rapidly isolating the first people who got sick. But on a ship like that, with tatters crammed into tight spaces, people able to spread it without showing symptoms, etc, it was basically hopeless.

    The original firing seems harsh to me, but I understand respect for the chain of command is essential. I would have thought maybe they could credit him for putting the well-being of his crew first, and maybe give him a private ass-kicking.

    Modly should be fired for his disgraceful and unprofessional remarks today. If the crew goes rogue and lobs a couple cruise missiles at this ginger REMF’s office in the Pentagon, I couldn’t blame them.

    Dave (1bb933)

  26. Correction: I meant mid-March

    Dave (1bb933)

  27. The US Navy knew the risk of a port call in Vietnam but wanted it done anyway:

    The aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt, accompanied by the guided-missile cruiser USS Bunker Hill, arrived in Da Nang, Vietnam on March 4 for a five-day visit.
    ***
    The plight of the Diamond Princess was widely known before the Theodore Roosevelt was sent to Vietnam so the State Department was intimately aware of the risk. On January 31, at the direction of President Trump, the US announced travel restrictions on China and declared the Covid-19 epidemic a public health emergency.

    Only one conclusion can be drawn: the State Department, which has to approve port visits by US warships, and the Pentagon, knew they were exposing the Theodore Roosevelt to danger.

    By February 14, well before the carrier arrived in Vietnam, the Navy ordered all ships in the Indo-Pacific region that had made port calls to quarantine at sea for at least 14 days, the maximum incubation period for the novel coronavirus. Stars and Stripes reported that the Navy also directed the 7th Fleet headquarters in Yokosuka, Japan to screen everyone accessing the fleet’s warships and aircraft.

    In general, Vietnam strives to balance relations with the US and China, with China always seeking to get the upper hand. But there was no urgent strategic reason to send the Theodore Roosevelt to Da Nang in early March.

    This Wall Street Journal report says the same thing.

    DRJ (15874d)

  28. This is CYA and scapegoating by Trump and Modly.

    DRJ (15874d)

  29. I can’t think of…or even imagine…anyone who blames Duh Donald for CV19 being in the U.S. Nobody can keep out a pandemic, as a quick look around the world will attest.

    Even ships at sea have a lot of necessary interaction with other vessels and aircraft crews. Until this was much more of a known quantity, I don’t see how ship’s captains had a chance in hell of keeping their vessels free from contagion.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  30. It isn’t clear who made the decision to fire Crozier but it appears it was either Modly alone or Modly at Trump’s request.

    DRJ (15874d)

  31. Trump said he fully supported Crozier’s removal, though he said, “I didn’t make the decision.”

    What a loser this president is. Say what you will of Crozier he’s clearly got more bravery than President ‘no responsibility’.

    The soviets had all this extreme weapons programs intended at taking out a carrier. I bet China does too. And all they needed was a bat burger. It’s profound. think it’s going to change warfare for terrorists to consider the damage being done with these uncontrollable diseases (Which are very unlike biological weapons).

    Dustin (928d9a)

  32. In a real navy, Crozier’s admiral, the one whose flag flies on ship (yes, admirals have their own flags, that’s why “flagships”), would be relieved of his command too. They’re supposed to keep an eye on their flag captains.

    nk (1d9030)

  33. nk, I think that admiral is the previous captain of the ship and has the unpleasant task of replacing Crozier for his beloved crew.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  34. This is CYA and scapegoating by Trump and Modly.

    Leniency is reserved for war criminals.

    Dave (1bb933)

  35. A senior officer is reportedly the source for making known the increased number of those on board who were infected:

    But by the time the ship reached port in Guam on Friday, the number of cases had grown to 25, and soon after to 36, according to reports.

    Chief of Naval Operations, Adm. Mike Gilday responded to the increasing numbers late last week by saying the Navy was taking “this threat very seriously” and working to isolate positive cases to halt the spread. He promised to increase the rate of testing and to isolate infected sailors. He stressed that the top two priorities were caring for their sailors and maintaining “mission readiness.”

    “We are confident that our aggressive response will keep U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt able to respond to any crisis in the region,” Gilday said.

    But by Monday, a senior officer on board the massive aircraft carrier, who wished to remain anonymous because they are not authorized to speak to the media, said between 150 and 200 sailors had tested positive. None had been hospitalized — yet, the source said. The Chronicle agreed to withhold the officer’s name based on its anonymous sources policy.

    Further, about the time of infection:

    Gilday told reporters last week it was unclear if sailors became infected following the ship’s previous port of call in early March to Da Nang, Vietnam. Gilday said they debated whether to go on with the Vietnam visit, but at the time there were only 16 coronavirus cases in northern Vietnam and the port was in the central part of the country.

    Sailors were screened prior to returning on board. The first three sailors tested positive 15 days after leaving Vietnam, officials said.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  36. Only one conclusion can be drawn: the State Department, which has to approve port visits by US warships, and the Pentagon, knew they were exposing the Theodore Roosevelt to danger.

    Massive intel failure and it took out an aircraft carrier!

    maybe nk’s previous comment is right and Crozier should have bucked up on his chain of command by refusing to go to port?

    Dustin (928d9a)

  37. An aircraft carrier is like a mini-city, with thousands of crew members aboard. It’s also a contained environment. If there’s an outbreak on the ship, there’s nowhere to go. The disease will spread and infect the entire crew. Captain Crozier faced an impossible quandary–dock and abandon ship, the crew could seek medical treatment, or stand idly by and watch as the entire crew, including himself, falls ill. Not exactly a hard choice to make.

    But Navy command wouldn’t allow him to make the correct decision. So he sent out a desperate plea. His only crime was that it exposed the ineptitude, incompetence and hypocrisy of the entire Trump administration.

    Acting secretary Modly is an idiot and a hand puppet. Acting commander in chief Trump is a retard.

    By the way, Captain Crozier has tested positive for the coronavirus. So now he’s a fired, disgraced and diseased naval commander. If that makes any of you Trump butt gerbils happy.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  38. Modly’s use of the word “betrayal” is a loaded [term] because saying an officer has betrayed the Navy is a court martial offense. [I think CNN means an officer betraying the Navy is an offense that can lead to court martial, but you knew what they meant.]

    A defense official familiar with Modly’s remarks offered his opinion of Modly’s address, saying the acting secretary “should be fired. I don’t know how he survives this day.”

    The bias and stupidity in this comment is laughable – then its the CNN Fake News Network. So, CNN found an anonymous person who thought Modly should be fired? Wow, that’s news. And betrayal has never been a court martial offense. And here’s a clue for the reporter: plenty of officers commit offenses that could result in a disciplinary hearing and instead are simply fired or told in no certain terms to “Retire”.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  39. Given that Chief of Naval Operations, Adm. Mike Gilday said far less sailors were infected than actually were, suggests that efforts were made to keep a lid on what was really happening.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  40. Somehow every other Navy ship afloat has managed to weather this crisis without sending letters that somehow end up on the front pages. If the Captain didn’t leak it himself, he copied so many people he knew it would leak. And his language was hysterical. The A/C Roosevelt is not a cruise ship, its a warship. Its job is to fight. People die all the time on A/C from flight deck accidents and other mishaps. The crew was made up mostly of fit young men, exactly the type that can get the Chinese Flu and survive. And how difficult is it, His concerns should have gone through secure channels. He refused to do that, and was rightly fired.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  41. Here’s reddit thread with some hot takes on the speach as well as a link to the transcript.

    It’s Reddit so pretty left biased on the comments. But the transcript is interesting.

    Time123 (36651d)

  42. The A/C Roosevelt is not a cruise ship, its a warship. Its job is to fight. People die all the time on A/C from flight deck accidents and other mishaps.

    Your lack of concern for the lives of Navy sailors is gross.

    Time123 (36651d)

  43. I love how the Never Trumpers have jumped on this story. If a Captain is fired, there MUST be a way to blame Trump. Remember these Anti-Trump don’t write themselves. Somehow, someway Trump is wwrong the trick is to find it – and then you have a story.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  44. Or this was the only carrier that had a port call during the outbreak. The rest were in preventive quarantine at sea.

    DRJ (15874d)

  45. #43 Right. Because A/C are the only navy ships that exist.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  46. Seriously, does anyone for a moment trust Trump’s choice of Acting Secretary of the Navy Modly to tell the truth about anything? The only people still willing to work for Trump are those utterly without honor.

    This is from an interview with Modly, by David Ignatius in today’s Washington Post:

    Modly explained that his predecessor, Navy Secretary Richard Spencer, “lost his job because the Navy Department got crossways with the president” in the Gallagher case. “I didn’t want that to happen again.”

    …add “to me” after that final word, and I’ll believe it. It seems certain that the Navy’s change in direction—immediately start to move most of the remaining crew to quarantine on shore—happened only because Crozier made the willing decision to sacrifice his career, instead of his sailors.

    Wonder if Tom Cruise will play Captain Brett Crozier in the movie? There would be a certain ‘circle-of-life’ thing to watch Cruise say, Damn right I sent the letter! (Acting Secretary Modly would, of course, be played by John Malkovich).

    And the final scene could be Captain Crozier’s very interesting testimony before Congress’s proposed independent, bipartisan Coronavirus Response Investigation Commission.

    Martin Allison (34703c)

  47. #43 Right. Because A/C are the only navy ships that exist.

    rcocean (2e1c02) — 4/6/2020 @ 10:08 am

    I’m not even sure what this means.

    Its job is to fight. People die all the time on A/C from flight deck accidents and other mishaps.

    Did you serve? You’re awfully ambivalent about these guys surviving. I’m a little raw about this because April 3 was the anniversary of a lot of my friends being blown up in a friendly fire accident, but we’re supposed to care when our sailors, airmen, soldiers die.

    Trump really brings out the best in society huh?

    Dustin (928d9a)

  48. Just practically speaking, if there were 150-200 sailors who had tested positive, how could the spread of the virus possibly be contained with 4,000 individuals on board? Even if they quarantined the infected, there would be no way to stop the spread with such close quarters. Even Capt. Crozier Crozier has tested positive.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  49. Just listened to a portion of the Sec of navy’s speech. The betrayal was simple. Moldly had been in close touch with the Captain and had offered to visit the ship on Saturday. But the Captain “waved him off” and told him he had things under control. The next day, the Captain sent out the email – not to his chain of command – but to 20 people. The memo contained sensitive information about the fighting status of the US warship, exactly the type of info we DO NOT want the Chinese or Russians to have. That’s why Molders said the captain either did it deliberately, or was too stupid/naive to be a Captain of an A/C.

    This isn’t the age of Nelson. The Captain had secured, instant, communications with his superiors. He apprised them of the situation, they were in touch with him, and asking if he needed more help. Instead of following orders, he went rogue. And rightfully got fired.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  50. So if 200 people test positive, you can’t control a virus on the US Aircraft Carrier? How silly. You quarantine them in sick bay until you can get them off the ship. If the Captain is testing positive, you get him off the ship and let the XO take over. Besides, the vast majority fit young people do not require hospitalization for the virus.

    Damn, you’d think no one on a navy ship ever got the flu.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  51. Just in case I haven’t made it clear, I see it as Clemenza having Paulie shot. (Eating the cannoli optional.) No innocents there.

    nk (1d9030)

  52. Somehow every other Navy ship afloat has managed to weather this crisis without sending letters that somehow end up on the front pages.

    Have there been other ships similarly infected?

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  53. Damn, you’d think no one on a navy ship ever got the flu.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 4/6/2020 @ 10:27 am

    Oh we’re back to the flu. Talking point #1 back and better than ever.

    How silly. You quarantine them in sick bay

    Gosh it’s so easy! Trump’s right this will be 15 sick at most, then gone in a jiffy. Oh wait, now he says if we only have 100,000 dead it’s a win.

    Spin spin spin.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  54. Have there been other ships similarly infected?

    Paul Montagu (f57f23) — 4/6/2020 @ 10:44 am

    Paul, I have the same question. And so do our enemies. I imagine this is a huge problem as it’s obvious the Trump administration failed to heed warnings for months. Ships that avoided it are probably staying very isolated, and some ships are probably having a horrible time right now. I hope they can keep some kind of lid on the situation, but I doubt it.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  55. rcocean,

    Again, this isn’t the flu. The rate of contagion makes it that much more dangerous. Even if you have quarantined those who test positive, you simply can’t know whether others are asymptomatic, and unknowingly infecting others. Even if you quarantine the infected, there are thousands of others involved, any number of them have had contact with the infected at any given time. Given the close quarters, how on earth would they be able to practice any social distancing?

    Dana (4fb37f)

  56. “Given the close quarters, how on earth would they be able to practice any social distancing?”

    First of all navy ship personnel can be tested. They aren’t going anywhere. Second, what is the hospitalization rate for young men under 30, who test positive? 10%?

    Using your logic, we should recall every navy ship from sea, and dock them till the crisis is over.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  57. How did the Navy function during the Ebola Flu of 2009. How did it function during any number of contagious diseases over the last 100 years? You tell me.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  58. rcocean,

    Nowhere did I say that they needed to be hospitalized.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  59. (By the way, that’s not great social distancing, fellas.)

    I hadn’t really paid attention to that, until you pointed it out, Pat. I have been somewhat on the fence regarding the Captain’s actions. Political showboating or hero saving the crew? That he allowed his crew to congregate like that after the dire letter he sent out tells me that he cares more about the moment than their lives. An order would have been given to not stand in that close proximity if there was truly the concern expressed in the leaked letter.

    BuDuh (99d682)

  60. @55, I’m going to make a swag that the correct answer is somewhere between nothing, and dock every ship for a year.

    Time123 (36651d)

  61. I hadn’t really paid attention to that, until you pointed it out, Pat. I have been somewhat on the fence regarding the Captain’s actions. Political showboating or hero saving the crew? That he allowed his crew to congregate like that after the dire letter he sent out tells me that he cares more about the moment than their lives. An order would have been given to not stand in that close proximity if there was truly the concern expressed in the leaked letter.

    BuDuh (99d682) — 4/6/2020 @ 11:08 am

    I assume that he was relieved of command prior to his walking off the ship.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  62. If true this is is a high level of hypocrisy. Firing the captain because he should have expected his letter to leak and then you expecti a speech to 5000 people to remain private?

    Just in: Navy official pushes back on leak of Acting SecNav Modly remarks criticizing fired Capt. Crozier as “too stupid or too naive” to lead: “There is no official transcript of the Secretary’s remarks to the crew of USS Theodore Roosevelt.” Remarks intended to be private.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  63. I assume that he was relieved of command prior to his walking off the ship.

    And? I thought the cheers were coming from the crew that respected him? If they no longer respected him because he was relieved of command then why all the cheers?

    BuDuh (99d682)

  64. rcocean must think that sick bay is some huge section on a carrier where a couple of hundred sailors can kick back and convalesce.

    Maybe in the starship Enterprise. Not in real life.

    Further, the T-rump cult must believe that there are no older men aboard. That’s magical thinking again. Navy chiefs are often middle-aged.

    But anything to cover T-rump and his corrupt, selected myrmidons.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  65. The captain would have been relieved under any administration. There is a chain of command, and going to the press to override your superiors is ipso facto insubordination, which cannot be tolerated in a military organization.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  66. Any other administration would have known better than to open their food holes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  67. outside of his having copied 20+ people (whose identities I have not seen, much less whether they were also in the chain of command) I have seen nothing saying he took it public.

    Two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead. 20+ people cannot, and knowing that 20+ people have the information makes leaking it seem safe. His inclusion of so many in the memo was a willful act of leaking, if indirect.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  68. After being set adrift in the Pacific in Bounty’s launch (that’s a big rowboat) by the mutineers, Captain Bligh and his loyal men all reached Timor alive, after a journey of 3,618 nautical miles (6,700 km; 4,160 land miles). That is a good captain. The British Navy knew it, and he went on to achieve the rank of Vice Admiral.

    nk (1d9030)

  69. About a cruise ship from Mark Steyn substituting for Rush Limbaugh:

    Venezualan navy ordered cruise ship to port while ship as in international waters. Ship refused. Venz. Navy fired at ship. Still refused. Venz. naval vessel rammed the cruise ship. Venz. navy ship sank.

    Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7)

  70. Sorry, guys. Crozier is not a good guy. He is no hero. He is no martyr. He is a mini-Trump.

    He let coronavirus aboard his ship. A carrier. A flagship. He should have expected to be relieved of his command for that (but who knows with the kind of Commander in Chief we have these days).

    nk, your comment suggests to me that you are buying Trump’s lie that this Captain decided to go to Vietnam on a whim. As if he doesn’t have orders that he has to obey. Dude, just because Trump says something doesn’t mean you have to believe it. In fact, you should presumptively disbelieve it, especially when it makes no sense, until it is confirmed by a credible source.

    @17, I think people are saying ‘leaked’ when they mean ‘wrote and released it expecting it to be leaked’. The distinction is clear, but I think it’s a distinction with very little difference.

    We can discuss how much difference there is in the distinction, but I saw people asserting that he leaked the letter or made it public and I want to be very careful to hew to the facts when discussing how the letter was made public. Dustin’s link substantiates that Trump’s stooge alleges that Crozier went outside his chain of command but the same quote makes it pretty clear that the Trump stooge does not have evidence that Crozier leaked it himself:

    Modly said he wasn’t sure whether Crozier leaked the letter personally, but he said Crozier didn’t do enough to ensure the letter didn’t get out, saying it was copied to many people outside the captain’s chain of command.

    “It was copied to 20 or 30 other people,” Modly said. “That’s just not acceptable. He sent it out pretty broadly and in sending it out pretty broadly he did not take care to ensure that it couldn’t be leaked.”

    BuDuh:

    That he allowed his crew to congregate like that after the dire letter he sent out tells me that he cares more about the moment than their lives.

    Your claim that a captain who had already been relieved of command had the ability to “allow” anything says more about your partisan desperation to make him a bad guy than it does about any logical thing that actually happened in real life.

    I listened to the first 5-6 minutes of the snippet of the speech as well, rcocean. I was interested to hear the outcry (with one soldier yelling “what the fuck?”) after he called the captain stupid or naive. As he continued to talk about betrayal you hear more loud grumbling.

    By the way, this:

    coming from a guy who said the captain was naive or stupid to think his email to two or three dozen people would leak — if it weren’t a Trump stooge it would beggar belief.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  71. 68, sounds like a plausible justification for a Mickey Arison cash for excess vessels bailout , I hope the steering skills have improved from a few years back.

    urbanleftbehind (386dcf)

  72. rcocean must think that sick bay is some huge section on a carrier where a couple of hundred sailors can kick back and convalesce.

    If not, just replicate a few dozen more sickbays. Duh.

    Maybe in the starship Enterprise. Not in real life.

    Actually it was Voyager who put the entire crew in stasis for a month to pass through a nebula with lethal radiation. Duh.

    Dave (1bb933)

  73. The captain would have been relieved under any administration. There is a chain of command, and going to the press to override your superiors is ipso facto insubordination, which cannot be tolerated in a military organization.

    Which, I think we’ve established pretty clearly, did not happen. Since the basis of your comment appears to be factually incorrect, your comment is not valid.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  74. Two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead. 20+ people cannot, and knowing that 20+ people have the information makes leaking it seem safe. His inclusion of so many in the memo was a willful act of leaking, if indirect.

    The acting Secretary of the Navy thought he could give a speech to thousands of sailors and have it remain private.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  75. Your claim that a captain who had already been relieved of command had the ability to “allow” anything says more about your partisan desperation to make him a bad guy than it does about any logical thing that actually happened in real life.

    I didn’t expect that response. I understand that he was relieved of command. I don’t understand why the ship’s crew was clearly, as you noted, disobeying proper distancing. It doesn’t portray a dire situation to me.

    I am unsure how my comments have been partisan. Maybe unwelcome?

    BuDuh (8aa142)

  76. 16. My understanding is that Cpt. Crozier’s memo didn’t just go up his chain of command

    Initiative. Another fella who bucked the system, didn’t follow ‘the chain of command’ and went around several layers of management was named John Houbolt. To the consternation of his superiors, he pushed this screwy idea called LOR – lunar orbit rendezvous– all the way to the top; and because he was persistent, Americans were able to land on the moon before 1970.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  77. Captain Crozier hs testd positive of CornyVee;

    Breaking: NBC News UK PM Boris Johnson condition has worsened; moved to intensive care.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  78. nk, your comment suggests to me that you are buying Trump’s lie that this Captain decided to go to Vietnam on a whim. As if he doesn’t have orders that he has to obey. Dude, just because Trump says something doesn’t mean you have to believe it. In fact, you should presumptively disbelieve it, especially when it makes no sense, until it is confirmed by a credible source.

    Patterico, I did not even know any part of that until your comment right now. My judgment is based on strict liability. He should go to Vietnam if those are his orders. He should take steps to avoid colliding with Japanese merchant ships on the way there. He should avoid running aground on an atoll. He could forbid all shore leave. He could screen and quarantine crew members returning to the ship from business ashore. (Those last two relate to the coronavirus infection.) Like that.

    nk (1d9030)

  79. >The attrition during the T-rump debacle will be felt for years.

    not just in the military. the good leaders and managers in the civilian sector are being driven out, too.

    aphrael (7962af)

  80. > He let coronavirus aboard his ship.

    he was supposed to stop it from getting onboard his ship *how*? someone who has it is infectious for days before they show symptoms. so without the ability to test everyone, which we STILL DO NOT HAVE, how do you stop it from getting *anywhere*?

    aphrael (7962af)

  81. Huh…

    I’ve known pretty large formations of people to keep secrets…for years.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  82. Yeah, just listened to this clowns “speech” to the crew…well…uh…

    A) incredibly stupid
    B) totally naive

    In this information age that something like this would leak when we send it out to 20…5,000 people.

    He disparages those under his command, not just Capt. Crozier, but every sailor on the ship. Gaslights them, builds straw men to tear down. He is exactly what you get for leadership in the age of Trump. Competence is not a qualifying factor, personally loyalty to the dear leader is, anything that may make him look bad must be exorcised.

    I do feel that the Capt. would probably have been dead ended in his career, but that’s something that happens out of the spotlight. You let the ship return to port for treatment, because if you have 1 infected sailor on an aircraft carrier, that is the perfect opportunity to have 4800, there is no worse scenario. Then, on crew rotation, or just “randomly” before departure the Captain takes a “new” post, PR nightmare avoided. This is the situation that is happening now, just with horrible optics.

    Based on what Modly said, how can he not be going for UCMJ charges against the Capt? He calls it out, so why not?

    The Captain to the action he did, I’m sure he knew the potential outcome, I’ve never had a command that large or strategic, but it’s pretty basic. He made the call, he’s accepting the repercussions.

    I’d bet dollars to donuts that Christi Grimm of the IG’s office for HHS will be getting canned for doing her job and reporting the Hospital Experiences Responding to the COVID-19
    Pandemic: Results of a National Pulse Survey
    March 23–27, 2020
    too.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  83. not just in the military. the good leaders and managers in the civilian sector are being driven out, too.

    word…

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  84. In the age of Trump, many of his supporters believe that vast conspiracies of “deep state” or “globalists” that has tens of thousands or millions of members.

    So sending out an email to 20 people, within the Navy, is naive. The deep state and globalists are just so much better at secret cabals than the Trumpsters, they’re just bad at everything. Incompetence and stupidity as policy…kewl.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  85. About the cruise ship.
    Venezuela claims it was transporting mercenaries for an attack on Venezuela.
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1265608/naiguata-resolute-venezuela-navy-vessel-sinks-cruise-news-latest-resolute-ship-naiguata
    It’s a German ship with extra strong hull because it sails in polar waters.

    Kishnevi (916796)

  86. Venezuela is an existential threat to US sovereignty. They are a mighty force, their Navy will take over the south Atlantic, unless Bubba in his bass boat confronts them, only Florida Man can solve this.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  87. Patterico, you said:

    We can discuss how much difference there is in the distinction, but I saw people asserting that he leaked the letter or made it public and I want to be very careful to hew to the facts when discussing how the letter was made public.

    and

    The captain would have been relieved under any administration. There is a chain of command, and going to the press to override your superiors is ipso facto insubordination, which cannot be tolerated in a military organization.

    Which, I think we’ve established pretty clearly, did not happen. Since the basis of your comment appears to be factually incorrect, your comment is not valid.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 4/6/2020 @ 12:14 pm

    Taken together you appear to be asserting that because he didn’t leak it directly to the press himself he’s legally and morally innocent of ‘leaking to the press’. I think it’s reasonable to argue that he should have expected the contents of the letter to be leaked and if this is the case, there’s no moral or functional difference between what he did and ‘leaking to the press’. He found a way to technically comply with the rules but still get his message to the press. He did it in a way that apparently complies with the military code of justice, but it’s apparently what he did.

    Time123 (36651d)

  88. @81 Yeah, he knew before he sent the email that he was toast. And yeah, they could have waited and quietly transferred him somewhere until his retirement paperwork went through and it would have avoided this entire brew-ha-ha. IDK if the Trump administration doesn’t know how things are done or if they intended to make an example of him and f’d it up, either seems equally likely.

    Nic (896fdf)

  89. Malicious and incompetent, it can be both. In fact, in the world we’re in, pretty likely.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  90. Taken together you appear to be asserting that because he didn’t leak it directly to the press himself he’s legally and morally innocent of ‘leaking to the press’.

    Nope. I didn’t say that or imply it. I said that if you’re going to pass judgment on what he did, first accurately state what he did. You did. Kevin M ultimately left a comment trying o equate the two, but his first comment baldly stated that the captain had done something that it’s clear he didn’t do.

    I still don’t think it’s fair to call what he did a leak, but it may arguably have had the same effect and he may well have known that was a likely outcome, making his moral culpability similar. Just be accurate is all I ask.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  91. @89, that’s a fair request. Thank you for clarifying. I wouldn’t expect many people to feel the distinction between he was fired for leaking and he was fired for sending a letter he should reasonable expected to be leaked is a very important one. If public respect for Trump is an important factor to you the distinction might seem completely irrelevant.

    That said, this is very much a place where words mean things and the technical accuracy of a statement is important.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  92. If all of the people that Crozier cc’ed on his memo are within the military/national security structure and the cultural expectation (evidenced here) is that members of the military/national security structure ought to keep such discussions to themselves, then how can it be that Crozier should have anticipated that someone would leak the memo?

    If “military/national security people don’t go the press” is a load-bearing premise of anyone’s argument here, why should it not be Crozier’s own expectation in sending the memo to military/national security people?

    Hard argument to have without knowing who was on the list of recipients. But if someone else leaked this to the press, and not Crozier, then that’s the person that should draw ire.

    Leviticus (c68ea0)

  93. Two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead. 20+ people cannot, and knowing that 20+ people have the information makes leaking it seem safe. His inclusion of so many in the memo was a willful act of leaking, if indirect.

    The same kind of people defending the Captain’s “wanting to have it leaked” memo, were telling us that James Comey would never, never, leak anything.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  94. To be clear. We don’t know WHO leaked the memo. The Captain said he didn’t, but leakers have lied before. But even if we take him at his word, including 20 people on distribution and NOT expecting it to leak was either naive or stupid. IMO, The Captain was playing the same game that DC Politicians do. You don’t leak, you just share the info with someone you know will leak it.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  95. It would’ve been better if the CNO had gone to the ship and made the speech, but perhaps he was unavailable or disagreed with the firing. Anyway, it was a good speech.

    I get the impression that the Navy has declined both in status and the quality of the sailors/officers in the last 30 years. The US Navy used to attract top-flight talent (TR/FDR were Asst. Sec of Navy, and from 1960-1992, 6 of our 7 Presidents served in the US Navy) but life on board a ship seems too hard for many. Living on an Air Force or Army base seems more attractive than a deploying on a ship for 6 months. Certainly, the top commanders seem to have trouble obeying orders and respecting the chain of command.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  96. The acting Secretary of the Navy thought he could give a speech to thousands of sailors and have it remain private.

    LOL. I sincerely doubt that.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  97. The acting Secretary of the Navy thought he could give a speech to thousands of sailors and have it remain private.

    Hilarious.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  98. The military planned to investigate Crozier’s situation, actions and letter. How does it help the military chain of command for civilians to short-circuit the military investigation?

    DRJ (15874d)

  99. Ways to incapacitate a multi-billion dollar supercarrier.

    [ ] human virus

    [ ] computer virus

    Choose.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. 281. A regular Billy Mitchell, eh?

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  101. ^@81.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  102. “The letter shouldn’t have been sent… I’m gonna get involved.” – President Donald J. Trump, 4-6-2020

    Our Captain will “get involved.” Swell. Strawberry Fields Forever.

    “This is the Captain speaking. Some misguided sailors on this ship still think they can pull a fast one on me. Well, they’re very much mistaken. Since you’ve taken this course, the innocent will be punished with the guilty… I will not be made a fool of! Do you hear me?!” – Captain Queeg [Humphrey Bogart] ‘The Caine Mutiny’ 1954

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  103. The same kind of people defending the Captain’s “wanting to have it leaked” memo, were telling us that James Comey would never, never, leak anything.

    Another crock of…magical thinking. At very best.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  104. TR/FDR were Asst. Sec of Navy, and from 1960-1992, 6 of our 7 Presidents served in the US Navy

    You can count Progressives TR and FDR as “top talent”. Many of us conservatives heartily laugh at the assertion.

    JFK and LBJ…really…?!?! LBJ was a gutless skunk, in or out of uniform, and JFK was a thug, like your cult leader.

    Every branch of our current uniformed services is head and shoulders above their predecessors, and every American should be grateful that they serve us.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  105. “I know a lot about helicopters… the replacement cost of the ship? $18 billion!” – President Donald J. Trump, 4-6-2020

    Lose lips sink ships, eh Captain, sir.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  106. Many of us conservatives heartily laugh at the assertion.

    More and more lately, are merely coughing. Ignorance is bliss; stay happy.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  107. [] Political interference.

    DRJ (15874d)

  108. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

    What do you have to lose?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  109. Colonel Klink — the President can simply certify that the disability is over, and if the cabinet disagrees, then Congress decides.

    That’s gonna waste a hell of a lot of time and energy.

    aphrael (7962af)

  110. Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

    A) that would buy us a month with him out of the way. B) that gives congress the opportunity to flush this turd.

    Can they not see a President Pence has a better shot at re-election, or at least maybe a sane republican can run in 2024?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  111. Heck, I’d take a week with him out of the way and some actual people with information could possibly answer questions with some facts based outside of Trump’s @$$.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  112. Klink’s thinking they’ll swiftly work their way down the list before they think outside the box – sources call it an “alternate reality” – and give the person whose loss sent him down this road another look…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9jrxQDqPpM&ebc=ANyPxKrGwp6gPFdKWMX9xsnFzul8wVONPNGJPp7mETRwrTbXKwa6DW_vnEYyQyvqAIerYNvGEVcUsxCjM2-DlyFXWVi3HQ2xmw

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  113. 110 I second that!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  114. Not a good look for the Navy. I mean, just the idea that you can be “stupid” or “naive” and still have your own command. SMDH

    Gryph (08c844)

  115. 111. There’s that pitiful, stupid binary again.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  116. 111. Doubtful…anyone whose not an “alphabet” person would take Hoosier salvation if a realistic and properly defended path.

    urbanleftbehind (d0d16a)

  117. 114… there’s that revolting tendency again…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  118. @49 et. al

    A Nimitz class carrier’s sick bay is pretty small. It has the following facilities. See a floor plan.

    o 20 bed In-Patient Ward
    o Exam Room
    o 2 bed Intensive Care Unit (ICU/CCU/RR)
    o 2 bed Isolation Room
    o 2 Operating Rooms
    o Laboratory
    o Pharmacy
    o X-Ray Facility
    “Due to limited space in Sick Bay, most patients are treated on an outpatient basis. Only contagious illnesses and post-operative cases are isolated in the Sick Bay’s ward.”

    Notice that there are only two isolation beds and two ICU beds, and that most sailors are treated on an out-patient basis. Not terrific if you are dealing with highly infectious disease, irrespective of the fact that “it only affects the old.”

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  119. Interesting, RipMurdock. Pretty safe to say a boat isn’t a good place to be these days. I think we had an early enough warning about this that resupplying carriers could have happened without much exposure, but once a few sailors get on board from off shore, it’s just too late.

    It’s fascinating that things are bad enough we’re talking about Hillary. She had her Benghazi and now Trump has his. Inaction and CYA is not a good path to election for either of them.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  120. @ #109:

    Can they not see a President Pence has a better shot at re-election…

    Not in a 25th Amendment scenario, he doesn’t. Many of Trump’s supporters would turn on Pence, who would have been partly responsible for an unprecedented act. They would stay home, or vote third-party, and ensure Biden’s election.

    Demosthenes (f6ab17)

  121. Looking over the specs and floor plan provided by Rip Murdock @ 117, I am once again compelled to ask, with 150-200 infected individuals on board (and knowing that the rate of infection would surge given numbers and proximity), exactly what other options did the Captain have?

    Dana (4fb37f)

  122. exactly what other options did the Captain have?

    Lock the healthy ones in,
    Fly the sick ones out,
    Break out the soap and bleach
    And wash it all out.

    nk (1d9030)

  123. with 150-200 infected individuals on board

    You’d have to literally quarantine the entire ship. I imagine Naval vessels are as isolated as possible and being resupplied more intelligently now, but any ship that has a breakout is pretty screwed until it runs its entire course.

    Maybe he could put the sick all on one deck if he had perfect testing.

    My concern is that this is obviously a problem for most naval vessels that had any interaction with the shore in the last couple of months. The notion that our navy had this under control would have been a convenient fiction. Normally I’m all about the public knowing, but not in this case. Why the secretary of the navy needed to amplify the fight is beyond me. In fact, had they gone nk’s route, and expressed dismay that this captain couldn’t handle the problem like the ‘rest of the navy’, it would have maintained the illusion for the world that our Navy is supernatural competent.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  124. @ #121:

    Everyone sees you being flippant about the people who pledged their lives to protect yours.

    None of us will forget it.

    Demosthenes (7fae81)

  125. i predict that trying to guilt-trip mr nk will fail

    Dave (1bb933)

  126. The Navy has one thing the rest of us don’t… mobility. If you really want to dream about solutions, they could send all vessels with an outbreak to an installation like San Nicolas Island in the Pacific, some similar island in the Atlantic, and dump the sick onto the island while scrubbing the ship.

    The problem is that any solution like that will be extremely conspicuous. If you’re going to do it, do it loud and proud and fast, decisively. Our president doesn’t make decisions so they waited a long while and then picked a fight for us to chew on.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  127. Modly Apologizes to Roosevelt Crew, Former CO as Navy Extends Investigation; Trump Says He ‘May Get Involved’

    The Navy is going to extend an investigation into the circumstances around a leaked message from the commander of USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) to service leadership sounding the alarm his sailors were at risk from an “accelerating” COVID-19 outbreak on the aircraft carrier.
    …..
    Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Gilday, “has approved an extension of the Navy’s preliminary inquiry into the events surrounding the disembarkation of [Roosevelt] sailors in response to a COVID-19 outbreak,” the service said in a statement.

    “This extension will allow additional time to gather facts and refine the inquiry’s recommendations. The inquiry remains in progress and is expected to be completed soon. It will take additional time for the inquiry’s recommendations to be reviewed and endorsed by Adm. Gilday.”
    ……
    The extension of the investigation comes as Modly has come under fire for a speech he made during a surprise visit to Roosevelt, currently in Guam. In remarks to sailors aboard, Modly said that Crozier may have committed a crime if he sent the letter out with the intent to be leaked. On the other hand, if Crozier didn’t think his message would get out Crozier was “too naïve or stupid” to command the carrier, Modly said according to a recording of the speech reviewed by USNI News.

    In a subsequent Monday statement to USNI News, Modly apologized to Croizer and the crew for parts of his remarks.

    “I want to apologize to the Navy for my recent comments to the crew of the TR. Let me be clear, I do not think Capt. Brett Crozier is naïve nor stupid. I think, and always believed him to be the opposite. We pick our carrier commanding officers with great care,” the statement read. “Capt. Crozier is smart and passionate. I believe, precisely because he is not naive and stupid, that he sent his alarming email with the intention of getting it into the public domain in an effort to draw public attention to the situation on his ship. I apologize for any confusion this choice of words may have caused.”

    On Monday evening, President Donald Trump was asked about Monday’s speech on Roosevelt said that he had heard good things about Croizer and Modly.

    “I may just get involved… You have two good people and they’re arguing. I’m good, believe it or not, at settling arguments,” Trump told reporters.

    “I may look into it in detail and I will be able to figure it out very fast.”

    Previously, Trump had admonished Croizer for sending the memo.

    “I thought it was terrible what he did, to write a letter. This isn’t a class on literature. This is a captain of a massi

    During the same press conference characterized Modly’s speech as, “a rough statement.” ……

    Modly trying to save his ass.

    RipMurdock (1d97e4)

  128. After calls for his resignation, Acting Secnav apologizes here.

    Dana (4fb37f)

  129. No, no, no, Mr. Dave. A good tactic is one that’s fun for your people. If Mr. Demosthenes did not enjoy it, it can only mean that I have failed. Disgraced, I perform the 17 ritual grimaces and 19 ear wiggles of contrition.

    nk (1d9030)

  130. Disgraced, I perform the 17 ritual grimaces and 19 ear wiggles of contrition.

    nk, did you ever read Barry Hughart?

    Kishnevi (822e2f)

  131. All three books many times over, Kishnevi. The curse of a thousand reincarnations as gelded water buffaloes on Ballantine Books for messing him around and driving him to stop writing.

    nk (1d9030)

  132. “I apologize for any confusion this choice of words may have caused.”

    Confused…??? I dun tink so, LOOOOOoooooocy.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  133. But that “17 ritual grimaces etc.” is more likely from Keith Laumer’s Retief stories.

    nk (1d9030)

  134. A/C in the past have been hit and sustained hundreds of casualties. And the sick bays were even smaller than those on the Nimitz. So where were all the wounded put? So in an emergency the sick bay can keep more than 20 people.

    And when we say 150-200 were infected, we are NOT talking about 200 sailors requiring Hospitalization. We are talking about people with mild symptoms. The idea that you can’t put 200 not very ill sailors in one part of the ship and close them off from contact, is ridiculous. There are 5,000 sailors on the ship.

    Finally, you completely ignore there are destroyers, cruisers, etc. which are even smaller than the Nimitz – with even smaller sick bays. What happens when they get a Corona Virus case, steam home and put into port?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  135. Trump handled the controversy very well in his press conference. He emphasized the Captain did a very wrong thing, but thought the punishment might be too extreme. He didn’t want to ruin a career over one mistake (certainly not the Ernie King Philosophy!) – so he will talk to the Captain, the head of DoD, the Sec of Navy, and resolve the matter.

    I’m puzzled by the lack of involvement by the CNO. While the Sec of the Navy has the right to do what he did, it would’ve been better to have the CNO handle it.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  136. Be careful, rcocean. You and I agree on this, but you know how the Fuhrer feels about sailors. We may be walking a thin red line like Modly.

    nk (1d9030)

  137. We cross-posted. I see that you already got the memo.

    nk (1d9030)

  138. You can’t just seal off a portion of a ship to hold infected personnel, removing the areas from ship operations. In addition the air conditioning systems would still spread the virus throughout the ship.

    RipMurdock (1d97e4)

  139. A/C in the past have been hit and sustained hundreds of casualties. And the sick bays were even smaller than those on the Nimitz. So where were all the wounded put

    This isn’t a very intelligent analysis because burns and broken bones aren’t contagious. You can send these guys to their bunks once they aren’t in critical condition. Viruses work a little differently.

    There’s really no need to tolerate massive casualties for no reason. Both on a moral level and a practical level. Sailors are difficult to replace and valuable.

    we are NOT talking about 200 sailors requiring Hospitalization.

    Yeah we are. Since they can’t spread the bug on the ship.

    This is more of that ‘it’s just the common cold lolol’ Rush Limbaugh nonsense.

    The real problem here is that Trump failed to make a decision in January as commander in chief. The buck stops with him on this.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  140. Trump handled the controversy very well in his press conference

    Is not something that is backed up by the watching of it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  141. Trump hasn’t read the captain’s letter and said he would. He’s seen it though. And remarked it was odd that the Captain of a Huge aircraft carrier – on active operations – would spend his time writing a five page single-spaced letter. I think its going to become obvious that the Captain was writing a letter for publication & was grandstanding. But we’ll see.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  142. #138 – wounds don’t equal a virus. Thanks Captain obvious. That wasn’t my point.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  143. I can write it, but I can’t make people understand it. Too many just want to argue, but have zero knowledge or can’t read. Adios.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  144. Trump handled the controversy very well in his press conference. He emphasized the Captain did a very wrong thing, but thought the punishment might be too extreme. He didn’t want to ruin a career over one mistake (certainly not the Ernie King Philosophy!)

    Hillary would say “what difference does it make?”

    Trump’s responsible for this whole mess. The distinction between Gallagher committing war crimes and this Captain spreading the word too fast is that one of these things made Trump look cool and the other didn’t.

    I’m puzzled by the lack of involvement by the CNO

    Don’t be. Trump’s administration is a complete clusterf*** where no one knows what will happen or what the decisions will be. The president simply can’t make decisions. Picking fights for drama, day to day, gives his supporters something to cheer.

    Yay Team R we won another argument according to Sean Hannity and Gateway Pundit!

    Dustin (928d9a)

  145. Too many just want to argue, but have zero knowledge or can’t read. Adios.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 4/6/2020 @ 7:40 pm

    Bye bye

    Dustin (928d9a)

  146. Rcocean,

    I’m unclear as to why you seem to be in complete denial about the dangerous rate of contagion with this virus. You also seem to determined to refuse to believe that this is not the flu. Why is this??

    Dana (4fb37f)

  147. Best place to be in a pandemic is an island or Alaskan village with no contact with the rest of the world until resources and effective treatments are established. Sure, might be a boring 18 months, but it’s the opposite of NYC.

    With good leadership, the Navy can be like an island. With poor leadership, the Navy can be like NYC. It shouldn’t be a political fight where we brush off a few dead troops because hey they signed up for it. These guys are valuable on multiple levels.

    I think the Captain should have been terminated for spreading the word outside his chain of command, but I’m relying on the SecDef’s claim he did that. I have to admit I do not have any direct evidence this is the truth, nor do I trust the Trump administration to tell the truth. The matter of making good decisions in January, using proper intel, is unrelated. It’s just not related.

    Why were our ships docking in Asia or anywhere else? My freaking grocery store knew to send as many people to a curbside delivery service. I get my oatmeal without getting sick. The military surely has plans for how to resupply itself under biological warfare conditions. I was an Army guy but I was trained on how to resupply, even how to eat and drink. They had all kinds of protocols for this and that was 20 years ago. The Navy was prepared for this problem. The decision to see it as a problem simply wasn’t made.

    Captain can get fired for it (and doing so sends a message to the other leaders about operational security). Captain is a tough job. But we also need to fire the president. President is a tough job and Trump keeps refusing to make decisions and do his job because, let’s be honest, he is a freaking weirdo.

    Dustin (928d9a)

  148. Trump hasn’t read the captain’s letter and said he would. He’s seen it though. And remarked it was odd that the Captain of a Huge aircraft carrier – on active operations – would spend his time writing a five page single-spaced letter.

    How can the first sentence and second/third sentence but in the same brain at the same time?

    He’s seen some paper? Writing 5 page single spaced letter, 15-20 minutes, reading 5 pages single spaced is 1 minute, 2 max. I know Trump has little experience reading or writing.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  149. Trump had not sent out a clear message yet, Dana. Whether it would be Crozier or Modly who would be the nunc pro tunc sonuvab!tch. Now that Trump has shown that he still likes men in uniform, I expect that the position of his supporters will likewise soften.

    nk (1d9030)

  150. Sailors slam Navy for virus response on ships, Naval Base San Diego
    Ever since COVID-19 began spreading in the San Diego community in early March, military leaders here have been challenged to balance their mission obligations with the need to protect the health of personnel.

    Some service members and their families are questioning that balancing act. They’re criticizing Navy leaders’ decisions and noting the variery of ways various units are responding to coronavirus outbreaks.

    The most visible example of this questioning was a letter publicized last week from Captain Brett Crozier of the San Diego-based carrier Theodore Roosevelt to Navy brass, urging them to provide more resources and to evacuate 90% of the personnel on the ship after an outbreak. …..

    Every base in San Diego had reported cases of the coronavirus before a Defense department-wide gag order was issued on Monday, curtailing what can be said about the cases, including where they are. …..

    …… At Naval Base San Diego several sailors on the base and attached to ships have tested positive for COVID-19.

    One sailor on the base said he is bothered by the Pentagon’s decision to stop providing information to the public about where and on what ships service members are testing positive.

    “There’s a black hole of information at the lowest level,” the sailor said.

    “Most of your employees are down at lower levels and they’re not getting critical information like the cases on bases and where on base it’s happening. We’re all in the dark — some of those people who tested positive live in the barracks.”
    …..
    Some family members of sailors on board the amphibious transport dock Somerset also are unhappy with how the Navy is reacting to the virus. The Somerset, along with two other amphibious ships in San Diego, are keeping their crews on board even while the ships are in port.

    “I’m concerned whether the commanding officer is taking this virus seriously,” one Somerset family member said. “We’re told not to congregate, yet he’s got 400 sailors confined to the ship.”

    Other ships, such as the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln, have instituted rotating, minimal daily manning requirements, to keep as many sailors as possible home each day. ….

    RipMurdock (1d97e4)

  151. The acting Secretary of the Navy thought he could give a speech to thousands of sailors and have it remain private.

    Yes. See what I wrote about other administrations not opening their food holes being so stupid as to speak publicly about their motives, something that had gotten Trump in trouble every damn time.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  152. You would think that Trump would learn from his mistakes, but he clearly cannot. The real reason I can’t get worked up over this example of Trump’s idiocy is that it’s become all too common.

    What I *can* get worked up about is that the BEST the opposing party can offer up is a borderline senile old man who wan’t judged the best choice in his prime, and their other option is a Mikhail Suslov wannabe

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  153. And what is terribly terrible is that the GOP has several fine choices, all of whom are muzzled by the braying masses who idolize Trump despite his 4 years of ineffectual leadership meandering.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  154. @151,152

    Everbody cough more.

    Dave (1bb933)

  155. You forgot to call everyone here who isn’t a T-rump cultist a “cuck”. You could have worked that in with your Chinese agent stupidity, surely.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  156. @ #124:

    I wasn’t trying to, happyfeet. I think he’s beyond guilt.

    @ #128:

    In no sense am I, or have I ever been, one of “your people.”

    Demosthenes (7fae81)

  157. If a Chief Petty Officer could get away with murder with Trump, why shouldn’t a flag captain think he could get away with “mere speech”? But just to be on the safe side, Crozier should hire the same lawyer Gallagher did, Giuliani’s former law partner and Trump’s former lawyer. And he should wear his dress whites a lot.

    nk (1d9030)

  158. “If a Chief Petty Officer could get away with murder with Trump, why shouldn’t a flag captain think he could get away with “mere speech”?”

    What’s the difference between the officer corps legally railroading one field soldier after the fact for conduct that would not have been remarked on previously and endangered no one but the enemy and…an admiral reliving a commander due to a massive security breach that endangers the entire Navy? Nothing to nk! This man’s middle name is ‘perspective’!

    “Crozier should hire the same lawyer Gallagher did, Giuliani’s former law partner and Trump’s former lawyer. And he should wear his dress whites a lot.”

    The officer peacock you’re looking to compare to is Vindman, son. Or Dick “not that Richard” Spencer, who initially joined in with railroading Gallagher but then changed his tune once he heard Trump was going to pardon him, then tried secretly communicating with the White House about how he was oh so sorry and that he’d totally hold off on this prosecution if Trump withdrew the pardon, and then got rightfully fired when Mark Esper found out about it and canned him for going outside the chain of command.

    This is what effective anti-careerism looks like, and all the lawyers and anti-Trumpers hereabouts hate it because it involves making decisions for the greater good and doesn’t involve paying them a lot of money to argue over procedure or bully an easy target, so they’ll continue seeking, bribing, and promoting every disgruntled desk jockey they can, even as the US and China stand with daggers drawn.

    Remember their “service” when the time comes!

    Vindman's Ghost (1bb067)

  159. What’s the difference between the officer corps legally railroading one field soldier after the fact for conduct that would not have been remarked on previously…

    Wow! That’s a new land speed record for most lies told in a single post.

    Gallahger’s fellow SEALS spit on him and his war crimes.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  160. Corona Jiangshi (154) and Vindman’s Ghost (158) are Steppe Nomad. Please disregard.

    DRJ (15874d)

  161. De facto Chinese agents, the lot of you.

    Don’t knock it. Mandarin is a tough language to learn.

    Paul Montagu (f57f23)

  162. And the poor guy is out of the loop, too, DRJ:

    Trump handled the controversy very well in his press conference. He emphasized the Captain did a very wrong thing, but thought the punishment might be too extreme. He didn’t want to ruin a career over one mistake (certainly not the Ernie King Philosophy!) – so he will talk to the Captain, the head of DoD, the Sec of Navy, and resolve the matter.http://patterico.com/2020/04/06/acting-secretary-of-navy-calls-fired-captain-of-aircraft-carrier-naive-or-stupid/#comment-2335431

    nk (1d9030)


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