Patterico's Pontifications

10/20/2019

President Trump Undermines His Vow To Bring U.S. Troops Home

Filed under: General — Dana @ 1:01 pm



[guest post by Dana]

The President ran on a campaign pledge to bring bring U.S. troops back home, and to end the “endless wars”. He has consistently maintained that it is still his still his goal. He tweeted this just four days ago:

However, we are learning today that the U.S. troops withdrawing from Syria are most definitely not headed home:

American forces continued their withdrawal from northern Syria Sunday and headed for Iraq, while efforts continued for a Kurdish evacuation from the area under the terms of the cease-fire agreed between the U.S. and Turkey.

Amid growing chaos after Turkey invaded the region earlier this month, Defense Secretary Mark Esper said late Saturday that all of the nearly 1,000 U.S. troops pulling out of northern Syria will now head to western Iraq to continue the campaign against Islamic State militants.

With President Donald Trump facing continued criticism for his approach to the crisis, the news means his vow to bring the troops home will seemingly go unfulfilled.

Also, according to Esper, troops will have two missions in Iraq:

“One is to help defend Iraq and two is to perform a counter-ISIS mission as we sort through the next steps,” he said. “Things could change between now and whenever we complete the withdrawal, but that’s the game plan right now.”

Esper’s full comments can be read here.

This morning, President Trump tweeted:

I have questions: Where are the Kurds being resettled? In mass graves? Detention camps? Exactly where? What does “we have secured the oil” mean? How has it been secured? How does the withdrawal from Syria and move into Iraq end any wars? And, amidst the chaos in northern Syria, if ISIS is able to reconstitute, will the U.S. in Iraq head back to Syria? Most importantly, who are the real winners here?

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

286 Responses to “President Trump Undermines His Vow To Bring U.S. Troops Home”

  1. I would appreciate some serious discussion/answers/thoughts to my exit questions, rather than juvenile cheap shots of “orange man bad”.

    Dana (05f22b)

  2. Please explain in detail precisely what the vital US national is in resettling the Kurds?

    If you remember, they are fighting because they want to be RIGHT THE HELL THERE. They sure as hell do not care to resettle; they would rather die.

    They have chosen their path, let them suffer the consequences.

    You guys are almost as bad as CNN

    Darth Chocolate (6c84c8)

  3. Dana — You ask good questions. I am not sure where you find the data to answer them. Maybe there are Turkish links answering the question. I am afraid you are fated to get more orange man bad discussion, because this group does not have the resources to say anything else.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  4. Isnt central iraq the bases of the islamic state, when we pulled out there, the forces moved up the euphrates.

    narciso (d1f714)

  5. How does relocating 1,000 troops to Iraq, and deploying 1,800 additional forces to Saudi Arabia fulfill Trump’s pledge to reduce American military involvement in the Middle East? I don’t get it.

    Dana (05f22b)

  6. Focusing away from peripheral areas, if we need to we move back,

    narciso (d1f714)

  7. They have chosen their path, let them suffer the consequences.

    They fought alongside us against ISIS. They were encouraged, by the U.S., to dismantle defenses on the border as a way of reassuring Turkey, and they were given assurances that we would have their back.

    Then Trump, after a little chat with Erdogan, made a hasty withdrawal, not giving the Kurds or even our own forces time to prepare. When the Kurds were being killed, he said, with his typical callousness, that they needed to fight things out like children on a playground, and that there was lots of sand for them to play in.

    General Petraeus, inter alia, said he thinks the Kurds were not only abandoned but betrayed. The Kurds certainly feel betrayed. Our own forces were stunned, horrified, ashamed.

    You guys are almost as bad as CNN.

    This isn’t one of those places where everyone thinks the word of Donald Trump is more trustworthy than anything said on CNN.

    Radegunda (dd98be)

  8. Appalled you wanted to pull out completely temember, thats why you voted for obama

    narciso (d1f714)

  9. Nominally, Turkey is our ally through NATO; the Kurds have no standing vis-à-vis a treaty.

    Last I checked, Trump is the one who sets foreign policy. Petraeus, the troops, and, yes, even you do not get to set policy. You may disagree all you like, but there you have it.

    A formal treaty carries the day. Welcome to the real world.

    Darth Chocolate (6c84c8)

  10. I added a link to Esper’s full comments in the post.

    Dana (05f22b)

  11. Thanks, Dana. It looks like the Kurds will end up in Northern Syria. The president originally called the SecDef “Mark Esperanto.” The Kurds will have Russia and Syria as allies, and will work to uphold the current regime against the insurgency; we have previously supported the non-ISIS insurgents.

    This could be wrong; I am not an expert.

    JRM (c80289)

  12. The Kurds have lived in that region for decades, if not centuries. To claim that they’re being “resettled” is not a good thing.
    Oh, and “until I built them” is a lie.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  13. Syrian oil? Trump is a man without honor in all things

    dirtyjobsguy (6f11d4)

  14. What does “we have secured the oil” mean?

    That is an odd statement to throw in there, isn’t it? If it were the normal Trumpian wharrgarrble, I could see it, but since he’s actually quoting Esper, we have to assume there’s some significance to both the statement and the capitalization of the word “oil”. This then clearly takes on the form of the “The eagle flies at midnight” message – Trump has quite possibly unwittingly released a key to some sort of highly classified James Bond-level bit of intrigue. The problem is trying to figure out who or what is “Oil”, and how this person or thing has been “secured” – there are far too many slick, greasy, unctuous, slippery, or otherwise lubricious characters involved here to narrow down the list of Codename: Oil candidates in any meaningful way.

    Jerryskids (702a61)

  15. Nominally, Turkey is our ally through NATO; the Kurds have no standing vis-à-vis a treaty.

    Last I checked, Trump is the one who sets foreign policy. Petraeus, the troops, and, yes, even you do not get to set policy. You may disagree all you like, but there you have it.

    A formal treaty carries the day. Welcome to the real world.

    Well Steppe Nomad, your lack of understanding hasn’t improved with your 312th screen name.

    A treaty isn’t the only way have a defense partnership. Who else do we not have a defense treaty with? Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Taiwan to name 3 glaringly obvious examples.

    Trump gets to make mistakes in foreign policy because he’s president, it doesn’t make the policy right, or smart.

    Welcome to the real world, where we support allies who have problems with other allies, all the time, and the US instigated the removal of Kurdish defenses on the border with Turkey, because we gave our word to the Kurds that we would protect them from Turkey. This wasn’t under Obama, it was this summer.

    But thanks for showing that knowing nothing is still on brand, regardless of this afternoon’s screen name. You are either smart enough to know you’re lying, or your not, and you believe Cheeto jeezus, I think we all know which one is true.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  16. Kurds haven’t been killed but they’ve fled.

    Trump is just saying things, some of which he may imagine wil happen.

    Sammy Finkelman (0d0ca8)

  17. Last I checked, Trump is the one who sets foreign policy. Petraeus, the troops, and, yes, even you do not get to set policy.

    Last I checked, we the people have a right to say whether the policy was good or bad, and whether it was in fact a betrayal of an ally. Petraeus and the soldiers on the ground know that as well as anyone.

    Trump is not exempt from criticism or from accountability just because he’s president — or because we should always “let Trump be Trump.”

    Being president doesn’t make him any less erratic, ignorant, callous, dishonest, or self-centered than he already was. If anything, he’s getting more unstable and unmoored from reality.

    Radegunda (dd98be)

  18. Excuse me Colonel Kink, but I generally lurk, but do not post. So go take your allegations (without proof, BTW) and have a nice day.

    Sure there are other methods besides treaties; however, there is a hierarchy. A treaty with a nation-state takes precedence over a gentleman’s agreement with a nation-state, and that takes precedence over a stated intention with a group of folks who are not recognized as a nation-state.

    So, where are we? A formal treaty with a nation-state versus a wink and a nod with a group of folks who have no formal recognition. Roll the dice and take your chances.

    The Kurds are not a formal ally in any sense. They were used by OBAMA as a foreign policy tool against the Syrians; the Turks never liked them at all (common for the Turks who have managed atrocities in the past). It’s a damn shame, but too bad.

    You see, sometimes tools get used, and when they no longer serve their purpose, they are discarded.

    You may not like the policy, you may think it is wrong headed (and perhaps it is), but it is the policy.

    Too bad that there are those in government who actively choose to actively work against the official policy. Try that at your workplace and see how that works out for you.

    Darth Chocolate (6c84c8)

  19. Yeah Radegunda, you have a right to your opinion. But you get ZERO input into determining what the policy is.

    If you don’t like it, become president and make your own damn policy.

    Darth Chocolate (6c84c8)

  20. well they are more allies than the free Syrian army, but I don’t get the argument you’re making the base of Islamic state arose in the Euphrates river basin in anbar province, we had no troops there so the they made the trek up throught deir er zour to the Syrian plain,

    narciso (d1f714)

  21. Turkey isn’t our ally, Mr. Chocolate. Time to impeach the traitor.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  22. The Kurds are not a formal ally in any sense. They were used by OBAMA as a foreign policy tool against the Syrians; the Turks never liked them at all (common for the Turks who have managed atrocities in the past). It’s a damn shame, but too bad.

    The Kurds have been our ally since 1991, when Obama was 30. So try again. We’ve had special Envoy’s to the Kurds for nearly 3 decades.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  23. Bush administration officials, however, have cast Turkey’s bid for European Union membership as a historic opportunity to bring Turkey into the West and, as a result, demonstrate that Western nations are not at odds with the Muslim world. They say they are convinced that Mr. Erdogan has undergone a genuine evolution from his early days and is a true moderate.

    ”Is Erdogan going to Libya, Iraq or Syria?” a senior administration official said. ”No. His first trips were to European capitals. He appears to have made his strategic choice. Rather than dig into the past he is looking to the future.”

    During his brief trip to Washington, Mr. Erdogan is expected to meet with Mr. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/09/world/threats-and-responses-turkey-bush-will-meet-a-leading-turk-on-use-of-bases.html

    The good old days.

    BuDuh (879ad1)

  24. Why should we respond to snark with serious analysis?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  25. Do you have any evidence of mass slaughter of the kurds by the turks? I’ve haven’t seen that.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  26. Remarks by President Bush and Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan in Photo OpportunityPresident George W. Bush and Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan

    Washington, DC
    January 28, 2004

    12:05 P.M. EST

    THE PRESIDENT: It is my honor to welcome Prime Minister Erdogan to the Oval Office for the second time. I’ve been looking forward to this meeting because Turkey is a friend and an important ally of America. I have found that the Prime Minister is a person who is easy to talk to. He’s a straightforward man, which makes it easy to be able to deal with common issues.

    https://2001-2009.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/28582.htm

    BuDuh (879ad1)

  27. The Kurds are being resettled in the areas OTHER THAN THE TURKEY SAFETY ZONE. This could mean..ah…Turkey. Which is you’d done your research would know includes millions of Kurds. OR it could mean the rest of Syria. OR it could mean Iraq, which if you’d done your research includes a large number of Kurds. But then I assume YOU HAVE DONE YOUR RESEARCH.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  28. 2- resembles NPR in the “How Dare You”mode.

    mg (8cbc69)

  29. @21. ‘Turkey is not our ally…’

    =sigh=

    “Turkey is a key NATO Ally and critical regional partner, and the United States is committed to improving the relationship between our two countries. It is in our interest to keep Turkey anchored to the Euro-Atlantic community.” source:

    https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-turkey/

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  30. Lost in all this nonsense if the fact that we have TWO ALLIES fighting each other. Capisce?

    WHy is Trump supposed to choose one over the other? The Turks are NATO allies. We have nuclear weapons on their soil. We trusted them to keep the USSR out of the middle east for almost 45 years. They fought beside us in Korea. And the Kurds? Well, most Kurds are in Turkey nd Iraq and are doing just fine.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  31. well turkey hasn’t really been an ally since 2003, if not earlier, yes they sent troops to Afghanistan, but that was probably in the means of Islamic outreach,

    narciso (d1f714)

  32. Yeah Bush was president a long time ago. Turkey was barely a friend then too, if you actually recall how things played out. They definitely aren’t now.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  33. @5. There’s likely a lot of Pentagon bureaucracy behind it all — the specifics lost on most of us–like deployment times and so forth. Troops transferred to Iraq from Syria to finish up their time could very well mean any personnel tagged to rotate into Iraq don’t have to deploy from the states. It’s a numbers game with them. Pentagon accounting may very well tally that as a ‘draw down’ in the long run– just as no budget increase from year to year is calculated as a cut.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  34. I think we’ve overcalculated the impact of the fourth id, however, even recent middle east history, when we aren’t involved is very bloody, hama massacre, sabra and shatila, the anfal campaign including halabja,

    narciso (d1f714)

  35. @32/@33 -‘turkey hasn’t really been an ally since 2003…’ ‘… Bush was president a long time ago. Turkey was barely a friend then, too… They definitely aren’t now.’

    … And Putin smiled.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  36. well turkey hasn’t really been an ally since 2003, if not earlier, yes they sent troops to Afghanistan, but that was probably in the means of Islamic outreach,

    narciso (d1f714) — 10/20/2019 @ 3:49 pm

    Exactly. They screwed with the 4 Infantry Division’s invasion of Iraq, but they did so in a deceptive manner by waiting till the last second.

    Turkey is not an ally, and you can’t trust anyone who lies to you about this.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  37. Is that the Putin that is selling Turkey S400 missile systems? That will require the Russian technicians having access to US and NATO IFF methodology?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  38. … And Putin smiled.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

    Oh yeah, he’s definitely happy these days. We keep handling him absurd geopolitical victories.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  39. 1,000 troops, eh? Those mere 50 that were there a week ago sure multiplied fast.

    What vow has Trump ever kept? When has he ever told the truth?

    I imagine, going from past history, some of the Kurds will be resettled in mass graves, some in Turkish prison camps, most in Red Cross/Red Crescent refugee camps, and a fortunate few will manage to reach relatives outside the contested areas.

    nk (dbc370)

  40. the character of the Turkish regime, has changed over the last 15-20 years, with Erdogan using gulen’s networks of mosques, and the two purges, ergonokon 1 (targeted at the grey wolves) ergonokon 2, (targeted at gulen’s followers)

    narciso (d1f714)

  41. Turkey is our OFFICIAL ALLY. They belong to NATO. Through NATO we have a treaty obligation to them. We have nuclear arms on their soil.

    They aren’t our allies?! Crazy.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  42. If 50 US soldiers are enough to stop the invasion of tens of thousands of Turkish troops, then the US army is way overstaffed. Looks like all we need is 1,000 men – and a brass band – and the world is safe.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  43. What vow has Obama or Clinton ever kept. They’re natural born liars.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  44. @38. Rest easy; as long as there are Americans crowing ‘Turkey is not our ally’ — condoning a breach in NATO– which is exactly what Putin wants– they’ll have him not just smiling, but beaming with delight.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  45. If 50 US soldiers are enough to stop the invasion of tens of thousands of Turkish troops, then the US army is way overstaffed.

    not “ARE” but “WERE”.

    We had a brilliant success, which is pretty rare in that part of the world, but we simply can never succeed like that again. No one would ever trust the American military to stand up to evil now that its run by such a coward.

    If anything, we need a much larger military, and will surely have to send them into harm’s way much more often. That’s what’s perverse about weakness. It inspires conflict.

    Obnoxious snark is fine but it won’t change how terrible Trump’s failure was.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  46. The Kurds are being resettled just like the Armenians were 100 years ago.

    #ImpeachmentNOW

    Kevin M (19357e)

  47. @45.The American military doesn’t “stand up to evil” – it operates as a proxy protectorate for U.S. corporate interests worldwide. That sort of rah-rah rhetoric is the stuff propaganda is made from.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  48. @46. So Sioux ’em!?! Sitting Bull died on a reservation.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. @45.The American military doesn’t “stand up to evil”

    Correct use of present tense. I rate this claim as True.

    That sort of rah-rah rhetoric is the stuff propaganda is made from.

    LOL the nihilism thing is getting a little stale my friend. the USA may not be doing a very good job these days, but compared to Syria, Russia, the Turkish, ISIS, and Iran, we indeed are in the business of standing against evil. It makes perfect sense for the evil empire to use the internet and America’s brilliant freedom of speech and technology against us to undermine our faith in our democracy and even get themselves a bunch of compromised American leaders who are afraid of… Syria, Russia, the Turkish, ISIS, and of course Iran.

    Standing up to Iran is not a matter of wearing a red ballcap. Our president is a coward and we all know it.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  50. Can the Syrians , Kurds or someone arrest the democrat cartel pretending to be American?

    mg (8cbc69)

  51. Dana,

    Where are the Kurds being resettled? In mass graves? Detention camps? Exactly where? What does “we have secured the oil” mean? How has it been secured? How does the withdrawal from Syria and move into Iraq end any wars? And, amidst the chaos in northern Syria, if ISIS is able to reconstitute, will the U.S. in Iraq head back to Syria? Most importantly, who are the real winners here?

    Let me take a crack at this:

    1. Turkey has a grand plan to move some of its Syrian refugees back into its buffer zone. The Kurds, in Turkey’ dream world, will move some undefined elsewhere.

    2. Genocide sounds possible. The Turks have done it before. But there is no evidence I am aware of that it has happened. I have’t found anything that says where the Kurds are going to go.

    3. Iraqi Kurdistan has oil. That’s probably why the troops went there and that’s what securing the oil is about.

    4. Moving troops out of the way of the Turks keeps our troops out of war for now.

    5. If ISIS comes back — who knows? Troops in Iraq might help stop Isis return. I don’t bet on Trump letting troops back in because that would mean admitting he goofed.

    6. When Trump does something impulsive in foreign policy — who usually wins? As DCSCA puts it…and Putin smiled. Turkey wins for now, though they may end up regretting the victory.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  52. To be fair, Edrogan has been a VERY bad ally, and many think he’s in Putin’s camp already. Access to the Dardanelles has been a Russian goal for over 200 years and I’m betting this time they get it.

    You could say this is Trump’s fault, but Turkey began to move away from the West when it became clear that the EU would not allow them membership, and this became more obvious with Erdogan’s election and their last-minute withdrawal from the 2003 coalition against Saddam.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  53. As an “ally” they are somewhat tepid

    steveg (354706)

  54. That strikingly misreads the situation tyrkey supported the chechens against russia. Its the sultan vs the czae

    narciso (d1f714)

  55. [W]e indeed are in the business of standing against evil.

    Fact. We have been doing it with varying degrees of incompetency lately, and our willingness wavers at times, but imagine China as the “world’s policeman.”

    Kevin M (19357e)

  56. Kurds haven’t been killed but they’ve fled.

    You don’t know that. There are reports of 200 civilian casualties.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  57. #54: And their history wrt Russia is why they sided with NATO in the first place. But they never expected to be shut out of Europe like they were, and it changed their whole perspective.

    Yes, they and Russia have a history and they are the easiest target of a Russian drive to the sea, but the best way to play that game is not to. They may decide allowing Russian transit is the easier path.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  58. Furthermore it was the turkish army that blocked the 4th id for obvious reasons

    narciso (d1f714)

  59. All the confusion and contradictions stem from Trump. All he had to do was tell Erdogan: “No! You will not take military action against the Kurds. If you do, your planes will meet our anti-aircraft defenses and your ground troops our long-range artillery in support of the Kurds. Let’s all three sides sit down and negotiate.” Instead, he gave Erdogan everything Erdogan wanted and he and his apologists are now trying to soft-peddle it and justify it with ludicrous lies and excuses.

    nk (dbc370)

  60. They aren’t our allies?! Crazy.

    They’re allies on paper, not real allies. If they were real allies, they would’ve let use their airbases for combat runs and they wouldn’t have allowed Islamic State terrorists to transit through their country.
    The Kurds were real allies until Trump stabbed them in the back.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  61. @59 This is one of the many things I like about this blog; pure entertainment.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  62. @53. As an “ally” they’re somewhat tepid…

    “DeGaulle” of it; try the vichyssoise– the Froggies weren’t always easy to digest either.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. ”The Kurds were real allies until Trump stabbed them in the back.”
    Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 10/20/2019 @ 5:23 pm

    So how long were we planning to hold up the Kurdistan independent state carrot? Anything less would be a stab in the back. I guess Trump was supposed to keep stringing them along like Bush and Obama.

    Munroe (53beca)

  64. Degaulle was largely advised by a ring of soviet agents, thats why he pulled out of mato in part.

    narciso (d1f714)

  65. @60. See #29 and click on the link to the State Department site. Scroll down to the ‘security cooporation’ section of the State Department overview– Incirlik was open for use by U.S. assets.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  66. @59 This is one of the many things I like about this blog; pure entertainment.

    You’re right, Frosty. Pigs will fly before Trump is capable of such courage, loyalty, and common sense. But we can dream, can’t we? After all, we’re stuck with him.

    nk (dbc370)

  67. So how long were we planning to hold up the Kurdistan independent state carrot?

    So how long were we planning to stay in South Korea, or should Trump stab them in the back, too?
    What we had was working. We had a smallish presence and negligible casualties, they did all the heavy lifting against the Islamic State and, for once, we had Putin outmaneuvered.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  68. ”So how long were we planning to stay in South Korea, or should Trump stab them in the back, too?
    What we had was working.”
    Paul Montagu (00daa1) — 10/20/2019 @ 6:01 pm

    You dodged the question.

    South Korea was and is an independent state. What we had was never going to work for the Kurds as long as they were stateless. And, they were going to be stateless permanently, weren’t they? We just didn’t feel like telling them that.

    Munroe (53beca)

  69. I stand corrected DCSCA, however, Erdogan has been pressuring us to curb our combat operations from Incirlik. Erdogan has always had a bigger jones against Kurds than militant Islamists.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  70. List of places, with US manpower, from which Trump could bring our troops home if he actually wanted to bring our troops home.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments

    It doesn’t list Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria separately, so I would presume they are among the Undisclosed.

    Kishnevi (eef23c)

  71. You dodged the question.

    I answered the question with a question which, had you read between the lines, is “indefinitely”. I haven’t heard of a US policy that endorsed the creation of an independent Kurdish state, so your question is somewhat irrelevant.
    The real question is, why change what has been working? The irony is that, today, Rand Paul sides with Trump, but four years ago he was on the side of an independent Kurdish state. The only thing that really changed between then and now are presidents and Paul’s double standards.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  72. @59 This is one of the many things I like about this blog; pure entertainment.

    Trump could have bossed Erdogan around. Instead he let himself be bossed around by Erdogan.

    As for Turkey being a Nato member: how often do Nato countries invade neighboring countries (in this case Syria is the country being invaded) with no provocation?

    Kishnevi (eef23c)

  73. ‘ We have been doing it with varying degrees of incompetency lately, and our willingness wavers at times, but imagine China as the “world’s policeman.” ‘

    Give the rest of the world a taste of that and see how things line up.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  74. #73 The same way Republicans line up after Trump.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  75. @69. I’m getting long in the tooth, but he reminds me some of DeGaulle when he’d cop an attitude. Sometimes as allies go you just wanna smack some up-side-the-head, but then, they have to live in their own neighborhoods.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  76. Tank Abrams 2020!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  77. US destroys Turkey alliance. Putin sad. Because the Russians love the Turks. They’re best buddies. Honest.

    US allies with Turkey over Kurds. Putin smiles. Because the Syrian Kurds are Russia’s enemy. Really.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  78. In the latest news, MIttens is now the new McCain and the liberal/left’s favorite Republican. See HBO/Axios.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  79. Kasich has now come out for Impeachment. But sadly. Why? Because “Real Conservatives” align themselves with Pelosi and Schumer.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  80. “Real Conservatives” align themselves with Pelosi and Schumer

    No. It’s because they recognize that Trump’s argument with the Left is not about principles. They are only arguing about which group gets to benefit from using the power of government against other people, and against which group the government uses its power.

    Kishnevi (eef23c)

  81. Real conservatives are not defined by the worshipers of Fifth Avenue fancy boys.

    But I have to give Trump this: A large part of my contempt for him has been that he was a person of little evils. He has finally managed to commit a great evil.

    nk (dbc370)

  82. Why? Because “Real Conservatives” align themselves with Pelosi and Schumer.

    Ocean, Trump has literally donated to both of those democrats and hoped for them to win reelection. You’re saying that if someone happens to agree with them on something, they are tainted with alignment, but endorsing and actually supporting them is not a problem?

    Dustin (915f3d)

  83. ”No. It’s because they recognize that Trump’s argument with the Left is not about principles.”
    Kishnevi (eef23c) — 10/20/2019 @ 6:44 pm

    That the media chooses to elevate Mitt and Kasich would seem to be a sure sign that principled opposition to the Left is not what they’re about.

    Munroe (53beca)

  84. So what, they are undermining conservative policies now, but romney has always done so going back to the 90s when he tried to the left of ted kennedy.

    narciso (d1f714)

  85. Wake me when he arms terrorist groups with weapons or drug cartels,

    narciso (d1f714)

  86. Or leaves a company of army personnel cut iff from armor and air support (thats mogadushu)

    narciso (d1f714)

  87. Maybe they are aligning with “the Left” because, regardless of motivation, “the Left” is doing the correct thing.

    (Oh, wait, I forgot, “the Left” by definition must be doing the wrong thing, no matter what that thing is, even if it’s exactly what “the Right” was doing 5 minutes ago and the pro-Trump people are doing the correct thing, again by definition, because if pro-Trump people are doing it it must be correct. Some people on here should never ever again claim to stand on principle because they’ve proven the only principle they have is whatever their guy is doing at this minute, which may be different from the thing they were supporting that he was doing a minute ago.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  88. What does “we have secured the oil” mean?

    Back in the day when ISIL was a thing it was making bank off oil fields in the regions it controlled. My guess is this refers to that.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  89. @87 We’re still talking about Mitt and Kasich? A much simpler, and more likely, reason would be political opportunism.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  90. @89 Probably not, unless they are counting on almost all the Rs joining in at some point, which seems unlikely. It won’t help Mitch much with the R voters he needs to get re-elected to the Senate and even if they were trying to line up another Presidential run, it won’t help them get through the R. primary, which they would need to do before they made it to the general. The Dems won’t vote for them in any primary and probably not in any general regardless and, unless the aforementioned bandwagonnng happens, the only Rs (former Rs) it would help with are the non-Trump people, which is a minority of Rs (former Rs).

    Nic (896fdf)

  91. @68 This issue of a Kurdish state keeps being ignored by everyone who keeps assuring us of the plethora of better alternatives.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  92. A kurdish state that takes land from four countries,dubios in 1975, it was a contest between the shah and saddam, i first heard of it in stephen hunters second saladin

    narciso (d1f714)

  93. Furthermore it was the turkish army that blocked the 4th id for obvious reasons

    They were tired of all those American arms?

    Kevin M (19357e)

  94. Erdogan’s Ambitions Go Beyond Syria. He Says He Wants Nuclear Weapons.
    Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, wants more than control over a wide swath of Syria along his country’s border. He says he wants the Bomb.

    In the weeks leading up to his order to launch the military across the border to clear Kurdish areas, Mr. Erdogan made no secret of his larger ambition. “Some countries have missiles with nuclear warheads,” he told a meeting of his governing party in September. But the West insists “we can’t have them,” he said. “This, I cannot accept.”
    …..
    If so, he is on his way — with a program more advanced than that of Saudi Arabia, but well short of what Iran has assembled. But experts say it is doubtful that Mr. Erdogan could put a weapon together in secret. And any public move to reach for one would provoke a new crisis: His country would become the first NATO member to break out of the treaty and independently arm itself with the ultimate weapon.

    Already Turkey has the makings of a bomb program: uranium deposits and research reactors — and mysterious ties to the nuclear world’s most famous black marketeer, Abdul Qadeer Khan of Pakistan. It is also building its first big power reactor to generate electricity with Russia’s help. ……

    Rip Murdock (d93e1f)

  95. Trump is going to be impeached and removed. Just too much crap piled up already and the GOP wants to run someone (anyone) else. Plus Trump is going to make it all worse going forward.

    This may happen a LOT faster than you think, and the fix will be in before the Senate gets it.

    Now, for the bad news for those that hate Trump: there is no going back to 2016. Trump defeated the establishment of both parties because they both had their heads up their arses. Bush Sr’s New World Order, accepted by both major parties and corporate globalists from China to the EU, was clubbed over the head by Mr Trump and has died from blunt force trauma.

    Now, of course, Trump could not build on the ruins (and none of the defeated players would lift a finger to help). Someone else will have to, and it won’t be the same folks as before.

    So, no Romneys or Ryans. No Clintons or Bushes either. Probably not Rubio and certainly not anyone wedded to the old D vs R social issue fights. No one who attacked Trump for taking on China need apply.

    Maybe Cruz. Maybe Nikki Haley. Mike Pence will run and do as well as Jeb!

    Kevin M (19357e)

  96. Note that many Democrats have already abandoned the old platform and are trying to find a new one because 2016 isn’t coming back for them, either. Nor, hopefully, is 1917.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  97. Prediction: Trump will tweet something WAY stupid and/or offensive by Tuesday night.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  98. Prediction: Trump will tweet something WAY stupid and/or offensive by Tuesday night.

    Kevin M (19357e) — 10/20/2019 @ 10:46 pm

    I bet you zero dollars he doesn’t!

    Now, for the bad news for those that hate Trump: there is no going back to 2016. Trump defeated the establishment of both parties because they both had their heads up their arses.

    True. They thought an actual maverick might win and figured letting Hillary beat Trump would be preferable. Amazing.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  99. This nation is going to civil war. Bring it on, Lets get this party started. Mission accomplished Republicans have turned into retreaded bald whitewalls.

    mg (8cbc69)

  100. https://issuesinsights.com/2019/10/21/the-deep-state-comes-out-of-the-shadows/
    The state dept. should be burned to the ground.

    mg (8cbc69)

  101. Dana, I don’t have a lot on insight into what’s going on in northern Syria. I don’t know how far they’re having to travel or if their new location is similar conditions or something far worse. But, we think about the turmoil and work of moving everyone from a small city in the US to a new location it probably gives us an idea of what they’re dealing with.
    Regarding the troop increase in Iraq.

    Trump has never been a very consistent and it doesn’t surprise me that his behavior in the region shows this lack of consistency. Our best direct evidence on why he’s doing what he’s doing is based on statements from him and his subordinates. They’ve demonstrated not only that they will lie casually, but that that they feel lying is totally appropriate. As Corely L said “I’m under no obligation to tell the truth to the media.” So we can’t really take what they say at face value. It looks to me like Trump starts from the assumption that whatever he did is great and that he’ll work back from that to justify the decision.

    Maybe we’ll learn more later. But since people aren’t as interested in foreign affairs as other things I doubt it will get as much coverage.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  102. @101, It’s a shame he hasn’t been able to make a positive impact on the state department after 3 years. We should move on and find an effective leader to be president. This one is too ineffectual.

    Time123 (80b471)

  103. How about a primetime press conference carefully outlining the facts and strategic arguments for whatever precisely is our national policy in and about Syria….rather than a series of late-night tweets, sound bites, and speculative spins. That is what leadership is about, isn’t it? I’m not sure that this President has earned the position of “just trust me”. Too many good people have resigned or stepped away from this administration. Who is driving this ship, what do they know, and what is their plan? If Trump can’t articulate this, then he needs to step aside….

    AJ_Liberty (165d19)

  104. Trump’s ineptitude is causing a serious realignment of allegiances in the region, and make no mistake it’s all about oil. Russia and China both continue to do business with Iran, despite US sanctions, and now the three of them are planning joint naval exercises together.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-would-russia-chinaand-iranplan-joint-naval-exercises?ref=home

    While not a mutual defense agreement, yet, these moves suggest that Russia and perhaps China, both nuclear powers, will side with Iran should it come under attack by US, Israeli and/or Saudi forces. This is why Trump abruptly cancelled a retaliatory strike against Iranian compounds after their assault on Saudi oil fields. It’s also why there was no US response when tankers were bombed and a surveillance drone was shot down. Putin warned him all hell would break loose.

    As for Syria, the CIA and the State department has been to depose the Assad regime for decades, going all the way back to the 1950s, when the newly elected government refused land rights for an ARAMCO pipeline intended to supply oil and gas for the rebuilding of Europe after WW II. There have been two competing pipelines, one US-backed, the other then USSR now Russia-backed, ever since. Because of its geostrategic location, Syria is a vital pathway for either pipeline, which is why Putin supports Assad. It’s also why he supports Erdogan. By backing Syria, Turkey and Iran, Russia seeks hegemony over the Black Sea, hence the annexation of Crimea and the ongoing unrest being fomented in Ukraine. Putin may have plans for reabsorbing the former Soviet states, but his real goal now is to gain total control over the energy supplies to all of Europe. He may also intend to extend his power over the Mediterranean and possibly the Persian Gulf.

    China is the wild card here. The largest importer of oil in the world–a million barrels a day from Saudi Arabia alone–China needs oil from Iran as well. Hence, the joint naval exercises. China has been buying oil from Iran and hoarding it in container ships for some time now, to avoid US sanctions.

    China has also been building up its naval forces, particularly in the South China Sea but also in the North Indian Ocean. That’s where these joint naval exercises are to take place, purportedly to protect shipping lanes and ward of pirates. Yeah, right. It’s all about securing oil supplies and controlling trans-Pacific trade.

    This is why Trump’s impetuous decision to withdraw from the TPP was so short-sighted. The original trade agreement did not include China. In fact, it was drafted to exclude China and give the US primary control over trade agreements with over a dozen countries along the Pacific rim. Well, Trump stupidly threw the US bargaining position away, because he famously (or infamously) doesn’t like trade. So, China stepped in and said, hey, you want a trading partner? Now, they’re all forming their own trade agreements, with no or low tariffs, and the US has no say in the discussions. Instead, Trump is running around like a mad blind man imposing tariffs and trade wars all around the world, leaving the US further and further isolated, allies betrayed, dictators coddled.

    We live in a kakistocracy now, under rule of the most unfit amongst us. Pax Americana has been discarded; it was thrown out at the Republican convention in 2016. There is little chance that it can be resumed. Why would any ally trust us now? Why would any enemy fear us now? They shouldn’t, and they won’t.

    None of this will end well. Trump is not a bull but a steer (a castrated bull) in a China Shop. He just goes around smashing up everything. And the result will be?

    Allies that no longer trust America. Emboldened enemies. A complete failure of American governance. This is what happens when you nominate and elect an incompetent fraud as president.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  105. #95 The Ottoman Empire is on the march! Its Hitler all over again! First, northern Syria, then nuclear weapons, and next thing the Turks will be at the Gates of Vienna.

    Can NATO stop this threat in time? Europe’s fate hangs in the balance.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  106. I think it’s only been a couple days since someone pointed out the no win situation with Trump critics. I’m paraphrasing but I think the comment was that sending in more troops would get criticized too.

    An assurance was given that conservatives here wouldn’t do that.

    Yet here we are, Trump moves troops to SA to continue the fight against ISIS, something that was important when he was drawing down from Syria, and he’s breaking his promises.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  107. Rest assured if he had bombed incirlik hed get criticized too.

    narciso (d1f714)

  108. Trump’s “ineptitude”? That’s a very charitable characterization. The guy is owned lock stock and barrel by Putin.

    JRH (52aed3)

  109. #105 Trump has opened the door for Putin in the Middle east. Next thing you know the kurds will be in his arms and then Syria will be in his arms and before you know it Putin’s harem will be full of Middle East countries. Maybe even Jordan – the lynch pin of the Levant. And next he will embrace Lebanon, thereby outflanking Cyrpus and as we all know, once you lose Cyrus, Crete will the next to fall.

    Its a tragedy what Trump has done. He’s given the entire middle to Putin by withdrawing 50 men from Northern Syria. The fool! Maybe the Turks will save us, since they’re on the March too.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  110. Who are the experts that let china into the wto and promptly reneged on its promises, ignoring all environmental and labor standards while systematically stripping our industrial base.

    narciso (d1f714)

  111. Com’on!
    Baby don’t you wanna go?
    Back to that same old place?
    Sweet home Arabia?

    He said he was bringing them home. H-O-M-E, home.

    nk (dbc370)

  112. On ukraine george kent seemed perfectly wiling to see billions of dollars be wasted as anti corruption coordinator there was no letter to the times even a leak.then again as chief of mission, he didnt see the invasion coming did he

    narciso (d1f714)

  113. Usual suspects calling Trump names and attacking him. What could Trump do to win their support? Nothing, except resign. That’s why their complaints are irrelevant.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  114. @103 It sounds like he’s making a positive impact there. The old club is complaining about how the new political appointees don’t gossip with them at parties, or listen to their worldly wisdom. I’ve read a couple of articles about how the old club is dedicated to implementing administration policy but the new guys won’t listen to them about how they need to ignore what’s coming out of the White House. You can also find several articles about people leaving because they can’t accomplish what they came to State to do.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  115. Maverick… bull… steer… sounds like the late James Garner, Rowdy Yates or maybe Gil Favor should toss their cowboy hats in the ring.

    Nothing but tired farting from the campfire beans…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  116. On iraq, the ones who counseled thar we build up saddams military, that workes out well, the ones who said iraq was still secular really, the ones who failed to properly equip the expeditionary force. Pick any one of that group

    narciso (d1f714)

  117. Happy Monday!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  118. #111 that was all OK – because Putin frowned.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  119. Im giving a wide berth, who has been right even a fraction of the time, on any of these issues

    narciso (d1f714)

  120. #117 You’re forgetting the key issue in USA Foreign Policy. Putin. If it makes Putin smile – its bad. If it makes Putin frown – its good. The Iraq war and the incompetent bungling that costs thousands of American lives and 100s of thousands of innocent Iraqis was worth it – because Putin frowned.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  121. Putins a fading figure, now which one of the siloviki is one the succession track?

    narciso (d1f714)

  122. James Garner the Okie Korea vet Democrat. Wonder what he’d think of the current state of things? I reckon he’d turn off the answering machine and go fishing.

    JRH (52aed3)

  123. I take a wide lense, its too easy to focus on just one period, just one example eaglrton and bodine, were on site during the anfal campaign, did they raise objections

    narciso (d1f714)

  124. Robert McNamara ran the World bank into the ground, presided over the disastrous Vietnam war (which he later admitted was a losing effort), and while at Ford Motor company gave us the Edsel.

    But that didn’t stop him from being on Cable TV in the 80s and 90s and posing as an EXPERT on Foreign Policy. Or from sneering at “Stupid” Reagan and “Dumb” bush, who “just didn’t know what they were doing”. In foreign policy, one can be incompetent and make insanely wrong decisions that kill people, but later, if you have the right friends in TV and the Establishment, you will always be an EXPERT.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  125. #123 from reading his autobiography Garner would cheer-leading for Sanders, and sneering at Trump. I’ve never read a book that made me think less of an actor than Garner’s book. He was smart to keep the “real James Garner” under wraps.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  126. Yes from edsel to vietnam to the world bank how about vance sr from vietnam to carters secretary of state to bosnian negitiations, or harriman stalins bff the one who presided over the diem assassination to the paris peace talks

    narciso (d1f714)

  127. Naw garner was a traditional new deal new frontier democrat, which would be a dinosaur today.

    narciso (d1f714)

  128. @112 So, looks like nk is in the “not a conservative” group. Also, the “more important to criticize Trump than fight ISIS” group.

    I really expected at least some of the “I give him credit when he does a good thing” group to take the easy pickup here so they’d have at least one example down the road.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  129. Half the time i think hes kidding, half i think trump ran over his cat.

    narciso (d1f714)

  130. You take the long road, im not even going into how embracing mao put us in the same basket of the khmer rouge. Deserting the shah from the bunny wrangler, clearly khomeini could have been avoided.

    narciso (d1f714)

  131. Is simple, my dear comrades.
    In gross display of cowardice, venality, treachery, and stupidity, Trump betrayed the Kurds who defeated ISIS for us to Erdogan.
    Erdogan then proceeded to ethnically cleanse the Kurds who defeated ISIS for us.
    Instead of trying to undo his evil, Trump and his butt gerbils are now trying to justify it with lies, obfuscations, and distractions.
    They’re stirring the dung, with the hope that people that Americans will eventually get tired of the sight (and the stench) and walk away.

    nk (dbc370)

  132. The top command staff in iraq, wanted to hunker down, petraeus had to rig a back channel to kick start the counterinsurgency.

    narciso (d1f714)

  133. I really dont see any confidence in stare department that dont even acknowledge their mistakes before counseling others

    narciso (d1f714)

  134. Here is video of US troops pelted with stones and fruit during their withdrawal

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-military-vehicles-pelted-fruit-093451025.html

    steveg (354706)

  135. Here is video of US troops pelted with stones and fruit during their withdrawal

    Shame to waste fruit like that, and even stones when the dogs are already running away is pointless.

    nk (dbc370)

  136. This is what we do with our fighting men and women, as opposed to the enemy

    narciso (d1f714)

  137. How about when Bette Davis turned down the role of Brigid O’Shaughnessy in the Humphrey Bogart remake of “The Maltese Falcon”, eh, narciso?

    When I am Emperor, I will appoint you Sultan of Squirrels.

    nk (dbc370)

  138. They framed a serviceman, immunizing some that committed the crime, and buried the evidence for years, i know that sop in your neck of the woods

    narciso (d1f714)

  139. @136 US troops are dogs running away?

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  140. They’re allies on paper, not real allies. If they were real allies, they would’ve let use their airbases for combat runs and they wouldn’t have allowed Islamic State terrorists to transit through their country.

    1. Turkey does allow the US to conduct combat runs from US bases *in Turkey*; if the counter to this is “well they didn’t do so in 2003,” that assertion should take into account that the US-led Coalition invasion of Iraq was (and is) wildly unpopular in Turkey, and that the *US* hadn’t supported Turkish advice to invade Iraq in 1991 and topple Saddam when the Turkish President of the time was willing to flout public opinion to do so.

    This weird American assertion that Turkey can be described as a disloyal and capricious ally for the US completely ignores the ways in which the US can be described as a disloyal and capricious ally for Turkey; I mean, for God’s sake, half the replies above note that Trump has been a temperamental and unpredictable point of contact for “the Kurds”, most of whom are members of glorified fronts for an organization defined as a terror group under US and Turkish law. Do you think Turks are supposed to be impressed with his behavior because “they got what they wanted?”

    2. Several NATO states have “allowed”, in one way or another, actual or suspected IS members to transit through their country. It’s even funnier that so many of these members are nationals of EU countries, many of whom have refused to take these individuals back once they have been arrested in Syria or Iraq and have even attempted to make several of them stateless.

    JP (7a537c)

  141. OT: That Romney guy is really great, though!

    Pierre Delecto (19357e)

  142. Do you think Turks are supposed to be impressed with his behavior because “they got what they wanted?”

    They should marvel at his 4-D chess brinkmanship.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  143. JP–

    You should also take into consideration that US public support for the Turks is minimal at best, and when Turks start killing those poor, helpless Kurds it’s like they were clubbing baby seals and IT.MUST.STOP!

    I mean, if we are going to drag public opinion into it…

    Kevin M (19357e)

  144. We are saying trumps policy was wrong, tell me one that worked in that part of the world,

    narciso (d1f714)

  145. OT: That Romney guy is really great, though!

    Pierre Delecto (19357e) — 10/21/2019 @ 8:32 am

    That’s a typical defense for Trump’s fans lately. If you criticized Trump in 2015 that meant you loved Jeb Bush, even if you never said you did.

    I don’t recall Dana’s view but I cannot recall any praise of Romney. Patterico’s not a huge fan. Most of his commenters have been critical of Romney’s flip flopping over the years.

    I can only recall a couple of people who really loved Romney for president… both are huge Trump fans now. It is very easy to go back and read the blog from 2012 and see that the people criticizing Team R mistakes now were pretty consistent about doing it before Trump.

    But despite Romney’s flip flops and calculations… Trump’s literally a former hillary supporter who promised to defend the Kurds for their sacrifices… one freaking month ago. Deflecting like this is why Trump thought he could get away with it, and at the end of the day Trump’s unusually rabid and irrational supporters have to take responsibility for the real-world consequences of their personal choices.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  146. We are saying trumps policy was wrong, tell me one that worked in that part of the world,

    narciso (d1f714) — 10/21/2019 @ 8:39 am

    Trump’s policy a month ago worked. That’s why it’s so bizarre he screwed everyone.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  147. Usual suspects calling Trump names and attacking him. What could Trump do to win their support? Nothing, except resign. That’s why their complaints are irrelevant.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 10/21/2019 @ 7:11 am

    He is not a dictator so you are mistaken that complaints about Trump’s conduct are irrelevant. Time for him to be removed from office, and when it happens, consider your worshipful attitude in this comment. I am sure you are a good person and your passion is inspired by anger at partisans on the other side, but don’t turn into what you are angry at. Trump is accountable to the people even if he’s on your side.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  148. Theres been enough policy misjudgements to fill the euphrates with blood over the lasr 30 years so get a grip, south east asua,

    narciso (d1f714)

  149. @136 US troops are dogs running away?

    Yes.

    nk (dbc370)

  150. rcocea,

    Using your logic, doesn’t that mean everyone should ignore your complaints about any President and Senators like Romney that you don’t like?

    DRJ (15874d)

  151. “OT: That Romney guy is really great, though!”
    Pierre Delecto (19357e) — 10/21/2019 @ 8:32 am

    Funny, on so many levels. Let’s pretend to be a French guy, because all the American sounding names are taken. Fitting.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/social-media-responds-to-mitt-romneys-apparent-pierre-delecto-twitter-account

    Munroe (53beca)

  152. No, because even the atlantic is kissing his keester, when they treated him like an umperson, back in the campaign

    narciso (d1f714)

  153. Obama was able to clear the decks, mccrystal (through hastings lies) petraeus (through jehs curious leak) made wat for brennan and got him dhs.

    narciso (d1f714)

  154. We are saying trumps policy was wrong, tell me one that worked in that part of the world,

    Who’s “we”, kemosabe? I’m not saying “Trump’s policy was wrong”. I’m saying “Trump is a yellow dog”.

    nk (dbc370)

  155. Names Mitt tried before Pierre:

    Willard_Superfly
    I_Fired_Your_Dad
    WhitebreadNeverTrump

    Munroe (53beca)

  156. Neither petraeus nor mccrystal protested on behalf of his men and their mission, so little honor they regarded themselves with.

    narciso (d1f714)

  157. @149

    when it happens, consider your worshipful attitude in this comment

    Why wait? Mr. Rcocean, you should go to your room right now and no video games. You need to think about what you’ve done. Your words have consequences young person whose gender I don’t know.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  158. Ben rhodes susan rice they shouldnt be able to show their faces in public, much less profit from their crimes.

    narciso (d1f714)

  159. Sone people are granted license:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/STUinSD/status/1186300253672280066

    narciso (d1f714)

  160. Usual suspects calling Trump names and attacking him. What could Trump do to win their support? Nothing, except resign. That’s why their complaints are irrelevant.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 10/21/2019 @ 7:11 am

    There is plenty Trump could do that would make conservatives happy. We are happy with his judicial picks, which he has reportedly accomplished in consultation with people from the Federalist Society. Consulting experts has worked well there. I wish he would do that in other areas, too.

    DRJ (15874d)

  161. Usual suspects calling Trump names and attacking him. What could Trump do to win their support? Nothing, except resign. That’s why their complaints are irrelevant.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 10/21/2019 @ 7:11 am

    I’m not a conservative but I was willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt and he had my full support at the beginning of the Presidency. I settled in to wait for the long-promised pivot to deceny. I thought Gorsuch was a nice start. Since then it’s been a nonstop dumpster fire and he has never acted like someone who wants or cares for the support of anyone outside of his base. I don’t hate the man. LIfe’s too short for that. But he is thoroughly unfit for the job he has, and yep resignation is the only thing he could do to win my applause at this point.

    JRH (52aed3)

  162. John Barron is a big fan of Pierre Delecto. He is probably following Pierre.

    DRJ (15874d)

  163. MAGA!

    Radegunda (dd98be)

  164. nk, didnt you have a post about the value of potatoes in re border security after which mg, being mg, told you where to put that potato?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  165. The Democratic candidates should campaign in areas where there are American soldiers stationed. I suspect there may be more interest in hearing from them after this.

    DRJ (15874d)

  166. I think a lot of fatigue has set in, dem protestations were particularly tin eared, what do they think will happen in Afghanistan next year?

    narciso (d1f714)

  167. I noted some relevant aspects of events then, which apply now,

    http://narcisoscorner.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-gordian-knot-of-syria-by-narciso.html?view=sidebar

    narciso (d1f714)

  168. Usual suspects calling Trump names and attacking him

    Any thoughts on Trump’s well-known habit of calling people names and attacking them? Or is that different?

    Is it your belief that criticism of Trump has no relation whatsoever to anything that Trump does?

    A new poll found that 42% of Republicans say there’s nothing Trump could do to lose their support, and it’s 55% among people who mostly get information from FOX. When Trump said “I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose any voters,” he was describing unconditional, cultlike devotion, which is exactly what we’re seeing in his base. For those people, criticism of Trump is always unjustified, whereas Trump’s criticism of others is always correct.

    Radegunda (dd98be)

  169. @125. Not that McNamara wasn’t a steaming pile of poop in a bag to light on the White House steps every Halloween, but:

    ‘During the 1964 election, Republican nominee Barry Goldwater blamed McNamara for Edsel’s failure. Eventually Ford’s former executive vice-president, Ernest R. Breech, who was a financial contributor to Goldwater, wrote the Senator’s campaign, explaining that, “Mr. McNamara… had nothing to do with the plans for the Edsel car or any part of the program.”‘ – source, wikiroadlemon

    And lest you forget, the conservative Goldwater also opposed Project Apollo- without which you’d not have nearly all the gadget[s] you take for granted now–including the one you post with today. And, of course, roughly half of the Vietnam war and the carnage it wrought was not ‘presided over’ by McNamara; the full blame for that hell that bloomed from it– and for prolonging it– sits squarely w/LBJ and The Big Dick.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  170. @170 In other words; whatabout

    Isn’t the current definition of whataboutism citing bad actions by one party to excuse the bad actions of another?

    Or did we flip back to the one where it’s ok when it’s criticizing Trump?

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  171. 50,000 dead, in a war that the leadership didn’t believe in, vs some digital widgets, lets weight that out,

    Clinton can let four men, die, pinned under fire, ambassador tortured, and worse, and the media acts like it’s about her feelings,

    narciso (d1f714)

  172. You should also take into consideration that US public support for the Turks is minimal at best, and when Turks start killing those poor, helpless Kurds it’s like they were clubbing baby seals and IT.MUST.STOP!

    I mean, if we are going to drag public opinion into it…

    True. And popular opinion, whether Turkish or American, doesn’t necessarily reflect prudent national interest or an informed acquaintance with the wider context.

    For example, I think it is fair to query the prudence of making long-term arrangements to have a nascent Damascus-leaning demi-statelet as a key point of contact for regional operations against ISIS, and the habit of describing this demi-statelet as “the Kurds”. I think it is also fair to ask whether Turkish popular distaste towards the demi-statelet is fully justified.

    I do think it is worth pointing out when leadership (or just *a* leader) of a country adopts positions that broadly align with US policy stances but are at odds with the general view of their constituents.

    And it’s notable that what was once a policy recommendation of one Turkish leader was turned down because it was, as it were, too pro-American for the time, whereas the disinclination of a successor towards the same policy recommendation has been, more or less, likened to being “anti-American” in this forum.

    (That may indeed be the case and I have little time for Erdogan’s intemperate outbursts, but it is surely fair to point out that US foreign policy in this part of the world is not constant)

    It’s also worth pointing out that Turkish voters, even given the conspiracist tone of so much Turkish politics, are touched and concerned far more by what is going on in their backyard than Americans… And they tend to have longer memories. For very good reasons.

    JP (7a537c)

  173. 170… spending day after day attacking someone could be viewed as obsessive/compulsive. Also as a religion of sorts.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  174. 164… Romney should’ve gone with Unlucky Pierre.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  175. I was struck how he was following Ashley parker still?? she chased him on to the roof of his car, and gave him a haircut, metaphorically,

    narciso (d1f714)

  176. Isn’t the current definition of whataboutism citing bad actions by one party to excuse the bad actions of another?

    No. Only when it’s irrelevant to the present situation. The fact that Benedict Arnold was a traitor does not exonerate Trump from being a traitor.

    Or did we flip back to the one where it’s ok when it’s criticizing Trump?

    There’s no flip. When you claim that I’m a meany for calling Trump names and attacking him, why shouldn’t I point out that Trump is always calling people names and attacking them — from Rosie O’Donnell to General Matthis and everyone-in-between? Do unto others ….

    nk (dbc370)

  177. So whatabout Giuliani investigating Hunter Biden’s sweetheart job in the Ukraine when his own son has a sweetheart job in the White House, on the taxpayers’ dime, playing golf with Trump? Whatabout that? Does that exonerate Hunter Biden?

    nk (dbc370)

  178. Yes it ignores 5.5 billion in lost foreign aid, thats where that loan that he extorted went.

    narciso (d1f714)

  179. Yes it ignores 5.5 billion in lost foreign aid, thats where that loan that he extorted went.

    You said it pal. Which means it’s a lie.

    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — ‘Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.’ — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

    Try to tell the truth, once, of course you’d probably loose the Moscow stipend.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  180. Its what actually happened, you dont care, mr. Kent didnt raiss concerns anywhere outside state,

    narciso (d1f714)

  181. I know the daily basilisk didnt provide the cue card ill wait.

    narciso (d1f714)

  182. Narciso,

    Are you saying that 5.5 billion in US aid went to the Ukraine company where Hunter Biden was a director?

    I swear, sometimes you read like the Noam Chomsky bot.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  183. @178 I wonder where Radegunda is on that? Whether he agrees that it’s perfectly fine to use the same tactics that you otherwise criticize when someone else is doing it? I mean as long as Trump’s doing it then it’s fair game, right? Do anything to defend your position and do unto others, right?

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  184. Isn’t the current definition of whataboutism citing bad actions by one party to excuse the bad actions of another?

    Criticizing Trump is not a “bad action”, per se. Nor, a priori, is Trump criticizing others. It matters whether criticism is merited and truthful, or not.

    But implying criticism is always wrong (as the person Radegunda was replying to did) is a completely illogical and untenable position when your guy does the same all the time.

    Indeed, suggesting that criticism of elected leaders is wrong, ipso facto, is insane.

    Dave (1bb933)

  185. It went through privat back whose owner mr k owns burisma, mr z only manages a part

    narciso (f1aeb6)

  186. Residents of northeast Syria city pelt departing US troops
    Angry over the U.S. withdrawal, residents of a Kurdish-dominated Syrian city hurled potatoes at departing American military vehicles as they drove by on Monday. Defense Secretary Mark Esper said U.S. troops will stay in eastern Syria to protect Kurdish-held oil fields for at least the coming weeks and he was discussing options to keep them there.

    “Like rats, America is running away,” one man shouted in Arabic at a convoy of armored vehicles flying American flags passing down an avenue in the northeastern city of Qamishli, according to video by the Kurdish news agency. ….

    Another man shouted obscenities and talked of babies in Kurdish-held areas who have died in the Turkish offensive. One of the vehicles reversed down the street and over a sidewalk as several people walked after it, shaking their fists in the air and shouting insults.

    The scene encapsulated the Kurds’ feelings of betrayal and added a new indignity to a U.S. withdrawal that has been rushed and saw several close brushes with Turkish-backed forces…..
    One man blocked the way of a U.S. van with a poster reading: “Thanks for US people, but Trump betrayed us.”

    Rip Murdock (d93e1f)

  187. I swear, sometimes you read like the Noam Chomsky bot.

    A bunch of aid from various countries to Ukraine disappeared into the corruption channels of Kiev.

    Narciso wants us to believe that
    1) the Bidens are directly implicated in this even though there is no actual evidence for that.
    2) the existence of corrupt and incompetent Democrats proves Trump is totally innocent of corruption and incompetence.
    3) pointing out evidence of corruption and incompetence on the part of Trump is proof that he is innocent.

    Kishnevi (2cd130)

  188. Or did we flip back to the one where it’s ok when it’s criticizing Trump?

    I’ve had plenty of critical words for Democrats over the years, and I’ve criticized Republicans too.
    The notion that everyone who criticizes Trump is doing so only because it’s Trump is absurd. The ridiculous “orange man bad” meme is a way of suggesting that every criticism of Trump is made without any real basis. And the corollary is that criticism of Trump is never justified. “Let Trump be Trump!” is the canonical expression of that notion.

    BTW, I noticed unusually hostile reactions to any criticism of Trump way back in the primaries. And even now, a quite large portion of GOP voters say their support of Trump is unconditional.

    The people who criticism Trump aren’t the problem. The problem is all those who think he’s never wrong.

    Radegunda (dd98be)

  189. The actual scandal in the Hunter Biden case is that it was all legal and all done in the open. Hunter on the Burisma board was unethical but not illegal.The scandal is not that either Biden committed a crime. The scandal is that no law was broken.

    Kishnevi (2cd130)

  190. Allahpundit may have decoded Trump’s mysterious reference to “the Oil”:

    The bad news is that the Kurds left behind in northern Syria will shortly be fed into Erdogan’s meat grinder unless Putin comes up with a way to restrain him in their summit tomorrow. The good news is that a few hundred U.S. troops will remain in parts of Syria to secure something more precious than human life — sweet, sweet oil:

    President Trump is leaning in favor of a new Pentagon plan to keep a small contingent of American troops in eastern Syria, perhaps numbering about 200, to combat the Islamic State and block the advance of Syrian government and Russian forces into the region’s coveted oil fields, a senior administration official said on Sunday…

    Recall that Trump is on record as saying the Iraq war would have been OK if we had “taken the oil”. So this appears to be a rare (singular?) case of consistency between word and deed.

    Dave (1bb933)

  191. I wonder where Radegunda is on that? Whether he agrees that it’s perfectly fine to use the same tactics that you otherwise criticize when someone else is doing it? I mean as long as Trump’s doing it then it’s fair game, right?

    I’m a she.

    I criticize Trump because I think he should be held to the same standards I have applied to previous presidents, and to people generally. I don’t think “He’s not a politician!” or “Let Trump be Trump” is an excuse to do otherwise.

    I don’t think “Take him seriously, not literally” is a valid excuse to overlook Trump’s egregious dishonesty, absurdity, ignorance, arrogance, nastiness, etc.

    I didn’t like the cultlike devotion to Obama. And I don’t like the uncritical, emotional allegiance to Trump — which in some ways is worse.

    Trump is the president right now. He holds more power and responsibility than anyone else — and he is mentally and temperamentally unfit to hold it. THAT is why criticizing him takes priority.

    Radegunda (dd98be)

  192. The press doesnt bother to look into the 2voluminous records of rosemont seneca, as they didnt look into the annenberg funds a dozen years ago.

    narciso (f1aeb6)

  193. @188. What- potatoes and not Kibble?

    Leave it to ‘ally cats to cry ‘rat’– loyal only as long as you keep feeding them.

    Can’t wait to see them toss taters at Russians, who’ll gather them all up: first the Kurds– to machine gun to death; then the potatoes– to make soup.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  194. @186 Well, no. I was the one who switched to calling it criticism because I wanted to tone it down but I wasn’t referring to what it sounds like you’re trying to switch it too. The original comment was

    calling … names and attacking

    and the followup was

    well-known habit of calling people names and attacking them

    and that continued with

    Trump is always calling people names and attacking them — from Rosie O’Donnell to General Matthis and everyone-in-between

    My interpretation of that back and forth is that it wasn’t about merited and truthful criticism. I case we’ve already forgotten you’re suggesting

    I’m not saying “Trump’s policy was wrong”. I’m saying “Trump is a yellow dog”.

    and US troops are dogs is fine criticism because Trump does it. I think nk might argue that stuff is fine even if Trump doesn’t do it but that’s a different issue.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  195. Inside Trump’s First Pentagon Briefing

    Pence and Kushner sat stone-faced, not uttering a single word throughout the entire meeting. Maybe they were the smart ones. Over time Mattis began to shut down, sitting back in his chair with a distant, defeated look on his face. He had cared so much about this meeting, had poured his heart and soul into it, and had believed firmly in his ability to bring Trump around to his way of thinking. None of his attempts were working. From my vantage point, Mattis was playing a game of chess against a president fixated on “Rock, Paper, Scissors.”

    Mattis did not think Trump was a raving lunatic, as some were trying to portray the president. In fact, Mattis had made a point of noting to us that America elected Trump for a reason. That the president had tremendous political skills, a sharp intuition and a formidable business career. Those qualities deserved respect. But still Trump could tax Mattis’ patience, and the president’s view of the world was both simplistic and troublesome. That was clear today.

    Across the table from Mattis, Tillerson also became increasingly frustrated, jousting verbally with the president before becoming so exasperated that he stopped talking completely for the last half-hour of the meeting. Tillerson sat back in his chair with his arms crossed, an incredulous scowl on his face as he shot pointed looks over to Mattis.

    Many times during Tillerson’s tenure, reporters would claim that he thought his boss was an idiot—and each time Tillerson would deny it publicly. But there was no doubt among most observers in the room that day that Tillerson was thinking exactly that. Both men—Mattis and Tillerson—were despondent. We had just witnessed a meeting with Trump, up close and personal.

    Now we knew why access was controlled so tightly.

    For the remainder of the meeting, Trump veered from topic to topic—Syria, Mexico, a recent Washington Post story he didn’t like—like a squirrel caught in traffic, dashing one way and then another.

    The issues were complicated, yet all of the president’s answers were simplistic and ad hoc. He was shooting from the hip on issues of global importance.

    With that, the meeting ended.

    I learned an important lesson that would pay off when Trump returned for a briefing the following January: only use slides with pictures … no words.

    Read the whole thing, it’s riveting. After a detailed geopolitical briefing by the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State and chief Economic Advisor, Trump’s reaction is … to ask if anyone saw his handshake with Macron and demand a parade with tanks bigger than the Bastille Day celebration he had just returned from.

    (Aside: I happened to be in Paris that Bastille Day, and was sipping wine in a bistro while watching Trump and Macron on the tee-vee. I said to myself – Trump is going to want a bigger parade to out-do Macron. And sure enough, less than a week later, he was derailing a briefing with his key cabinet officials to demand it…)

    Dave (1bb933)

  196. Erdogan’s Ambitions Go Beyond Syria. He Says He Wants Nuclear Weapons.

    Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, wants more than control over a wide swath of Syria along his country’s border. He says he wants the Bomb.

    In the weeks leading up to his order to launch the military across the border to clear Kurdish areas, Mr. Erdogan made no secret of his larger ambition. “Some countries have missiles with nuclear warheads,” he told a meeting of his governing party in September. But the West insists “we can’t have them,” he said. “This, I cannot accept.”

    “The Turks have said for years that they will follow what Iran does,” said John J. Hamre, a former deputy secretary of defense who now runs the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. “But this time is different. Erdogan has just facilitated America’s retreat from the region.”

    “Maybe, like the Iranians, he needs to show that he is on the two-yard line, that he could get a weapon at any moment,” Mr. Hamre said.

    If so, he is on his way — with a program more advanced than that of Saudi Arabia, but well short of what Iran has assembled. But experts say it is doubtful that Mr. Erdogan could put a weapon together in secret. ……

    Already Turkey has the makings of a bomb program: uranium deposits and research reactors — and mysterious ties to the nuclear world’s most famous black marketeer, Abdul Qadeer Khan of Pakistan. It is also building its first big power reactor to generate electricity with Russia’s help. That could pose a concern because Mr. Erdogan has not said how he would handle its nuclear waste, which could provide the fuel for a weapon. Russia also built Iran’s Bushehr reactor. ……

    Maybe if Erdogan put cash on the barrelhead, Trump could sell the nuclear weapons already in Turkey.

    Rip Murdock (d93e1f)

  197. @136.

    a. They certainly don’t look like they’ve missed a meal, do they; better fed than grade school kids in Detroit.

    b. What makes you believe they’re actually Kurds– they could be ex-employees of The Weekly Standard on a freelance gig.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  198. In Turkey it is absolutely wrong to criticize an elected leader. Their law says so. As Americans we have freedoms that are outside the reach of the law and until we meet people like the Turks, we have no idea how great we have it here.

    In Turkey it is OK to ponder aloud whether or not the Kurds should be exterminated, but it is illegal to ponder aloud whether or not the Kurds should be given a degree of autonomy.

    Trump is right that the Kurds are not always so great either, particularly the commie Kurds. We shed blood on the ground together with the Kurds fighting ISIS, while the Turks spent much of their time in Syria fighting Kurd PPU’s rather than ISIS.

    Putin can’t be happy, because he was trying to cozy up with the Turks and now instead he has inherited the Kurds. Here’s to the Russians having fun in their own never ending war

    steveg (354706)

  199. The issues were complicated, yet all of the president’s answers were simplistic and ad hoc. He was shooting from the hip on issues of global importance.

    IOW, the way he behaves in a serious official meeting is pretty much what a rational person would expect from watching him in public.

    only use slides with pictures … no words

    IOW, all the jokes about “You’d better give him a picture book” have been dead-on.

    Radegunda (dd98be)

  200. @198. “DeGaulle” of him: actually he has ‘the bomb’ already. Several; as a member of NATO, there are nukes stored/stationed in Turkey.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  201. Yes thats prize you get from the iran deal,

    So who investigated burisma and found it blameless, i know they shut down the invedthation a year after they fired shokin, took nearly that long to reopen it.

    narciso (f1aeb6)

  202. @193 I don’t disagree with anything you said in this post. However, it sounds like you are answering a different question than I asked.

    Whether [she] agrees that it’s perfectly fine to use the same tactics that you otherwise criticize when someone else is doing it?

    So far, nk says “do unto others”. Taken at face value that means that if Trump lies then you can lie to attack him. If he engages in ridiculous attacks then you get to do the same, etc. Actually, “do unto others” is short for “do unto others before they do unto you” and that condones a lot of behavior.

    Criticizing Trump shouldn’t take priority over fundamental things like being fair and honest.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  203. Actually, “do unto others” is short for “do unto others before they do unto you” and that condones a lot of behavior.

    Actually, “do unto others” is short for “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. Apparently some Jewish guy said something to that effect a long time ago.

    And I read Comrade nk’s comment as meaning that if Trump viciously attacks others, it implies that this must be how Trump wants others to treat him.

    Dave (1bb933)

  204. A literate person would know that the non-ellipted phrase is “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. A person of normal intelligence would understand, from that, that Trump forfeited the right to complain about people calling him names and attacking him when he constantly calls people names and attacks them.

    nk (dbc370)

  205. Dave types faster.

    nk (dbc370)

  206. after the mailed glove up the keester for the last three years, you got an atty which geithnered and the campaign manager, but not the one at the end, what has ‘ellis’ and his pop, been subjected to, (hint it used to be a practice in time square)

    narciso (d1f714)

  207. Actually, “do unto others” is short for “do unto others before they do unto you” and that condones a lot of behavior.

    Criticizing Trump shouldn’t take priority over fundamental things like being fair and honest.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97) — 10/21/2019 @ 1:24 pm

    Is this like a contest? Like how bad a shill can you be? Cause I can totally get on board with this. hilarious joke too!

    Dustin (f0d711)

  208. @205 and @206 That isn’t how “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is usually interpreted but fair enough. Going for the insult was a nice touch. Whatever it takes right?

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  209. @210

    Like how bad a shill can you be? Cause I can totally get on board with this.

    You don’t need to convince me.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  210. Frosty, that’s flipped. It’s do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    Not do as they do.

    And definitely not do as you think their worst caricature would do.

    Time123 (ecd105)

  211. @205 and @206 That isn’t how “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is usually interpreted but fair enough. Going for the insult was a nice touch. Whatever it takes right?

    I didn’t insult you.

    Dave (1bb933)

  212. @205 and @206 That isn’t how “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is usually interpreted but fair enough. Going for the insult was a nice touch. Whatever it takes right?

    Where were you educated? When, if, this is children’s Sunday school, 101, there’s a reason it’s the Golden Rule, and no, that isn’t “he who has the gold makes the rules”. You’re version is literally the antithesis of the actual words and meaning. So how very Trump’s Taint™ of you.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  213. ‘You people with this phony Emoluments Clause’: Cabinet meeting devolves into 71 minutes of Trump grievances
    President Trump, trying to dig out from political holes of his own making on top of the expanding House impeachment inquiry, held forth for 71 minutes Monday during what was ostensibly a Cabinet meeting but ended up being a familiar torrent of grievance, defensiveness and bold statements about his expansive view of his own powers.
    After reversing on his plan to hold the next Group of 7 summit at his Doral, Fla., golf resort, Trump dismissed criticism that he was profiting off his presidency.

    “The Democrats went crazy,” Trump said, commenting on criticism that he was using the presidency to enrich himself. “You don’t think I get enough promotion? I get more promotion than every human being that has ever lived. I don’t need promotion. It would have been the greatest G-7 ever.

    “You people with this phony Emoluments Clause,” Trump said, commenting on the clause in the Constitution that bars federal officials from taking emoluments, or forms of payment or profit, from any “king, prince or foreign state” as an ethics guideline.
    …..
    The president reinforced his administration’s decision to keep some U.S. troops in eastern Syria to protect Kurdish-held oil fields. Trump repeatedly said he wanted to “keep the oil.”

    “We’ll work something out with the Kurds so that they have some money, so that they have some cash flow. Maybe we’ll get one of our big oil companies to go in and do it properly.”
    …..
    Trump also addressed the impeachment inquiry at the Cabinet meeting, directing his ire at House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco), Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-Burbank) and Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y).

    “It’s a very bad thing what they’re doing. The president of the United States should be allowed to run the country, not have to focus on this kind of crap while, at the same time, doing a great job on Syria and Turkey and all of the other things that we’re doing.”

    Rip Murdock (d93e1f)

  214. @216 Are you saying you are unfamiliar with the quote I gave? It’s a common inversion of the Golden Rule used by people who want to justify their actions based on the actions of others. You honestly aren’t familiar with this? Yes, it is the antithesis of the Golden Rule and it was also what nk was doing.

    Dave, nk, you, Times123 now want to interpret the rule in another inversion which isn’t exactly one of Kant’s complaints but something similar, i.e. we should treat Trump how he treats others because that’s what he wants. Even, in children’s Sunday school they know this interpretation isn’t correct either.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  215. I believe “Do others before they do you” was one Houdini’s mottos.

    JRH (52aed3)

  216. @219 I think that’s also Trump’s motto.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  217. it’s an unserious, actually fraudulent inquiry, someone might say with criminal roots, so why take it seriously,

    narciso (d1f714)

  218. Dave, nk, you, Times123 now want to interpret the rule in another inversion which isn’t exactly one of Kant’s complaints but something similar, i.e. we should treat Trump how he treats others because that’s what he wants. Even, in children’s Sunday school they know this interpretation isn’t correct either.

    You are again misrepresenting what was said.

    Let me try to diagram it as simply as possible:

    Theorem:
    Trump does X to others, therefore Trump has no cause for complaint when others do X to him.

    The validity of this argument does not depend on knowing whether doing X is right or wrong.

    Nor does it tell us anything about whether doing X is right or wrong.

    If X is “dishonestly and ignorantly criticize others” then doing X is wrong, and the theorem is true.

    If X is “honestly and intelligently criticize others” then doing X is not wrong, and the theorem is true.

    Dave (1bb933)

  219. @205 and @206 That isn’t how “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is usually interpreted but fair enough. Going for the insult was a nice touch. Whatever it takes right?

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97) — 10/21/2019 @ 1:49 pm

    I don’t think he insulted you at all, but personally I think you are pretty ridiculous. I want to respect the proprietors and I really challenge my welcome but man oh man. ridiculous.

    It’s just a politician.

    Dustin (f0d711)

  220. God will shame mittens for being such a cowardice pos.

    mg (8cbc69)

  221. @222 You are the one who keeps moving this to whether Trump can complain about it. I haven’t been saying anything about whether Trump can complain. I’ve been saying it’s dishonest to say something is bad when you’re doing it yourself, i.e. ridiculous name-calling is ridiculous. It’s even more dishonest to engage in something you’ve said is bad because someone else is doing it, i.e. calling Trump ridiculous names because he calls other people ridiculous names. Just to keep this nearby;

    When you claim that I’m a meany for calling Trump names and attacking him, why shouldn’t I point out that Trump is always calling people names and attacking them

    This is nk saying it’s ok to do something that is generally considered wrong by Trump critics when Trump does it. True, he’s saying by implication that Trump, and Trump supporters, shouldn’t complain about it if they aren’t willing to also criticize Trump. You are focusing on the implication. I’m focusing on what he actually said.

    Do you agree that ridiculous name-calling is ridiculous or do you think it depends on the target?

    We’ve drifted some.

    Do you apply this formulation to other situations besides Trump and is there a limit? So, the more general formulation would be:

    X does X to others, therefore X has no cause for complaint when others do X to him.

    Are there any limiting principles to that?

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  222. yes, tell me more about their integrity:

    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1186389426634706944

    narciso (d1f714)

  223. Can we see Pierre Delectos browser history?

    mg (8cbc69)

  224. @223 The phrase “A literate person … of normal intelligence would understand” carries a pretty direct implication. Or we could go for the implied sub-text.

    Similarly, “It’s just a politician” also carries an implication. The problem is the entire side of my conversation isn’t trying to defend Trump. It cracks me up that you and others keep seeing criticism of your comments, logic, arguments, etc., as a defense of Trump.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  225. mg says: “God will shame mittens for being such a cowardice pos.”

    Says the “John Baron” supporter.

    noel (f22371)

  226. This is a senator in office so its ok because of Trump?
    hypocrite

    mg (8cbc69)

  227. Nothing is ok because of Trump.

    noel (f22371)

  228. I mean, I don’t use him as a measure for ethical behavior.

    noel (f22371)

  229. When you claim that I’m a meany for calling Trump names and attacking him, why shouldn’t I point out that Trump is always calling people names and attacking them

    This is nk saying it’s ok to do something that is generally considered wrong by Trump critics when Trump does it. True, he’s saying by implication that Trump, and Trump supporters, shouldn’t complain about it if they aren’t willing to also criticize Trump. You are focusing on the implication. I’m focusing on what he actually said.

    I interpret the bolded part as his point.

    To those of us who do not wear orange-tinted glasses, there is a glaring inconsistency between the non-existent standards Trump’s supporters accept for him, and what they demand of every other person in the world.

    So, the more general formulation would be:
    X does X to others, therefore X has no cause for complaint when others do X to him.

    Yes, there are obvious limits. Some examples:

    A trained doctor performing brain surgery on a toddler would have cause to complain if the toddler performed brain surgery on him.

    A police officer shooting someone in the act of dismembering a helpless victim would have cause to complain if the perpetrator shot him.

    Etc.

    All the exceptions I can think of involve some fundamental asymmetry of the parties involved, such that one has a moral or legal right to do X, and the other does not.

    To the extent such considerations are relevant at all to the topic of discussion, Trump (or any president) is surely more constrained (or should be) by the responsibilities of his office than his critics.

    There is nothing particularly wrong with you or I passing the time in reckless public speculation about (say) repudiation of the US national debt, execution of a whistleblower, intimidating or suborning a witness, or starting nuclear war, but most people would agree that the president’s words should be chosen much more carefully. This also boils down to an asymmetry. Nobody much cares what you and I say, but a national leader’s words have far greater importance.

    Donald Trump (and, of course, his superfans) considers this horribly unfair. A more grown-up person would recognize it as a small price to pay for being the most powerful man in the world.

    Dave (1bb933)

  230. 228… it’s just another warp d way of winning hearts and minds, frosty. Consider the source…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  231. warped

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  232. Nothing is ok because of Trump.

    Corollary: Nothing is ok because of Obama or Clinton, either.

    Dave (1bb933)

  233. Sorry for the typo

    X does Y to others, therefore X has no cause for complaint when Z does Y to X.

    I think I got it right that time.

    Dave, since this is what you want to go with, any limiting principles? Unlimited values for X, Y, and Z? Maybe take some time with it.

    Frosty, Fp (85a156)

  234. I can only recall a couple of people who really loved Romney for president… both are huge Trump fans now.

    Well, that’s pretty selective then. Many (most) people here were quite supportive of Romney in October 2012, and if he had won, he would easily beeen a far better president now (in his second term) than either Obama or Trump.

    But, just to jog you memory, I have said — and still mean it — that Romney (in 2012) was the best candidate that the GOP had nominated since Reagan.

    Bush Sr, check (but you could argue it)
    Bob Dole, hugely
    W, yep
    McCain, big time
    Trump, absolutely

    Kevin M (19357e)

  235. Kevin M (19357e) — 10/21/2019 @ 4:22 pm

    I supported Romney and certainly wish he had won. I don’t agree that he was head and shoulders above the others since Reagan.

    They all had their strengths – Romney’s being business/managerial experience and practicality – and none were entirely without weaknesses.

    Dave (1bb933)

  236. The “Emoluments Clause” is an anti-foreign-bribery clause. It does not speak to whether Trump has an ownership share in a company that makes a profit off of room service.

    Does anyone have evidence of bribery?

    Kevin M (19357e)

  237. Dave,

    As I said, Bush Sr was in the same league. McCain might have been at another time, but in 2008 he proved himself an absolute n00b wrt economics. Dole, W and Trump? not hardly.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  238. Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, wants more than control over a wide swath of Syria along his country’s border. He says he wants the Bomb.

    Insert my standard rant about the absolute existential necessity of showing the Norks the error of their ways, for all to see.

    Kevin M (19357e)

  239. And lest you forget, the conservative Goldwater also opposed Project Apollo …

    I don’t know about Goldwater but it wouldn’t surprise me since most Americans, especially scientists opposed Project Apollo as too expensive and a poor choice of allocation of resources:

    Etzioni attacked the manned space program by pointing out that many scientists opposed both the mission and the “cash-and-crash approach to science” it represented. He cites a 1958 report to the President from his Science Advisory Committee in which “some of the most eminent scientists in this country” bagged on our space ambitions. “Research in outer space affords new opportunities in science but does not diminish the importance of science on earth,” he quotes the report. It concludes, “It would not be in the national interest to exploit space science at the cost of weakening our efforts in other scientific endeavors. This need not happen if we plan our national program for space science and technology as part of a balanced effort in all science and technology.”

    You point out what we would have missed out on if not for the space program, but what did we miss out on because of it?

    DRJ (15874d)

  240. @frosty, I misunderstood your point. I thought you had the golden rule inside out.
    Sorry for the short response, on a phone.

    Time123 (d54166)

  241. The “Emoluments Clause” is an anti-foreign-bribery clause. It does not speak to whether Trump has an ownership share in a company that makes a profit off of room service.

    Does anyone have evidence of bribery?

    If a foreign country directed its business there (legitimate business, or business created for the sole purpose of funneling money into Trump’s crime empire) with the expectation of gaining favors (like, say, release of foreign aid appropriated by Congress, to pick a random example) that would be functionally equivalent to bribery, wouldn’t it?

    Dave (1bb933)

  242. Dole, W and Trump? not hardly.

    That you would even mention the first two together with the third seems like trolling.

    Dole was a career legislator, and they tend to be less natural fits with the chief executive role than a governor. Dole’s personality was a often a liability, but he was a solid conservative, and a loyal foot soldier for Reagan (in the figurative sense) and America (in the literal sense).

    Dubya succeeded in restoring dignity to the office of the Presidency, just as he promised in 2000, led the country to victory in two wars, and saved the economy. He invariably did what was right, rather than what was popular or politically expedient for himself. “He was a man, take him for all in all, I shall not look upon his like again.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  243. Except it didnt apply to the rockefellers, but they were presumed to owm the country
    Anyways so.

    narciso (d1f714)

  244. if he had won, he would easily beeen a far better president now (in his second term) than either Obama or Trump.

    I’ll give you that, and indeed I forgot you supported him. hindsight 2020 could be his campaign slogan.

    Dustin (5ef76a)

  245. In our system if X does Y to Z and then Z does Y to X in return, the law prosecutes them both. Not necessarily equally because if X shoots Z in the ass(Y) and its a flesh wound, but Z shoots X in the ass(Y) and it goes up his ass and out his scrotum, the law may decide that Z was over exuberant in his/her retribution

    steveg (354706)

  246. I will always harbor a grudge against Marco Rubio for not holding up his thumb and forefinger about an inch and a half apart and saying “Tiny Donnie” when Trump called him “Little Marco” in that debate.

    nk (dbc370)

  247. BTW, do you know where that oil from the Syrian oilfields was going when ISIS was controlling them? I’ll give you a hint: Traditional Thanksgiving dinner.

    nk (dbc370)

  248. 249… except in a scenario where Z is using a .22, as those are known to rattle around an ass before exiting a scrotum.

    And another scenario where X happens to be this unfortunate fellow…

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/mans-scrotum-ballooned-hung-to-his-knees-and-began-to-rot-doctors-report/

    In that case, they would never find the .22 slug, and who could blame them?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  249. Teh horror, teh horror.

    narciso (d1f714)

  250. @243. Nice try. “Scientists” in various competing disciplines initially battled Apollo fearing it would divert resources –chiefly funding– from their own pet projects. Several key ‘scientists’ within the space program itself- the planetary and astrophysics types- who were there early on toiling in various centers were quite frustrated over the ‘man in space’ thing, particularly as funding for unmanned probes, beyond the province specific for supporting Apollo, was stifled. Several of the ‘science’ types eventually left the program in professional frustration– most notably Gene Schumacher. And, of course, Apollo was not a “science project” – but an “engineering program” born of Cold War politics with both hard and soft power projection.

    Public support waxed and waned through the decade- just as Luna does monthly- and it’s easy to look up the Gallup numbers from the 1960’s and the Congressional Record data on it– but support blossomed w/Apollo 11- then dropped off with the subsequent flights, as more ‘science’ was ‘added’ to each moon mission, in almost direct proportion. [The color TV failure in November 1969 on Apollo 12 along w/the Apollo 13 accident five months later didn’t help, either, as the next televised moonwalk wasn’t until February, 1971- a significant gap– and the public was moving on.]

    Nevertheless, the accelerated technological advances– the ‘spinoff’– in electronic miniaturization, communications, computers, Earth resources management and in the medical field, to name a few, are undeniable. And, of course, as far as the “public” goes– the National Air & Space Museum is the most popular and most visited in Washington, D.C. Did a college thesis on this, DRJ. Know the pluses and minuses behind it, where the politics were played, where the money was invested in both hardware and infrastructure [Houston!!!] and where mistakes were made and corrected. It remains among the best investments in itself, the United States has ever made. Goldwater’s suggested alternative in his 1964 Cow Palace speech suggested plowing resources into and cultivating support for the then emerging European Marketplace [you know, today’s EU- “Brexit” and all that] rather than reach for the moon. Small thinking. Still, in spite of his opposition, Barry made sure he was invited to the Apollo 11 launch, sitting near LBJ, who deserves much more credit than he gets for getting Apollo off the ground and Americans on the moon.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  251. I most appreciate the advances in cinematography, which gave us a totally credible Moon walk. Stanley Kubrick put them to good use in the commercial version of the fable, “2001: A Space Odyssey”, and Francis Ford Coppola was still using them in 1992 in “Dracula” eschewing George Lucas’s computer graphics.

    nk (dbc370)

  252. Pierre Delecto?

    Seriously??

    Mon Dieu.

    Willard, you are a weirdo. Delecto.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  253. @233 I didn’t see that before @237.

    It’s not really interesting discussing situations where Y isn’t inherently wrong, i.e. it’s just prohibited for one party but not the other. The interesting questions involve things that are generally considered wrong.

    What about some more symmetry between the parties? Someone lied to their spouse about porn. Can they complain about their spouse having an affair? Of course they can.

    I can give more examples but I would suggest it has nothing to do with symmetry, having lied you don’t lose the right to complain about others lying. I know it frustrating to hear Trump supporters complain about lying, or whatever, but the real question is are they right?

    It is true that what we say has less significance, to the world at large, than what Trump says. So, what? That doesn’t excuse sloppy arguments and ad hominem.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  254. @227. The media is ferreting out Willard’s numerous “Pierre Delecto” tweets. All that could top it is if Ann’s secret twitter handle was ‘Gigi Magee’ and the kids: ‘Strawberry Parfait’ ‘Quiche Lorraine,’ ‘Espresso Latte’ and ‘Staypuff Marshmellow.’ 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  255. Romney did not use the account for posting (according to Allahpundit) but rather for liking Tweets of people he followed.

    Dave (1bb933)

  256. @259. They’re finding more and more his written text responses.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  257. What about some more symmetry between the parties? Someone lied to their spouse about porn. Can they complain about their spouse having an affair? Of course they can.

    Lying about porn and lying about having an affair are hardly comparable behavior.

    I can give more examples but I would suggest it has nothing to do with symmetry, having lied you don’t lose the right to complain about others lying.

    Having lied to a particular person about something, until you admit your mistake and apologize, I think you have no basis to complain if they lie to you about the same thing, or under similar circumstances.

    Obviously, lies can have different degrees of severity (“That dress doesn’t make you look fat at all” isn’t quite the same as “I’m not sleeping with your younger sister”).

    I know it frustrating to hear Trump supporters complain about lying, or whatever, but the real question is are they right?

    If you complain about somebody from the other tribe lying, but profess indifference to lies by the leader of your own tribe, you expose yourself as an immoral hack, IMO.

    None of that makes shameless lying (by anyone) defensible behavior.

    Dave (1bb933)

  258. I really have to hand it to Frosty. He switched the discussion from Trump being a cowardly Judas who sold out the Kurds to “what is whataboutism?”. Well done, Frosty! Trump should invite you to the presentation dinners of his several Nobel Prizes.

    nk (dbc370)

  259. #251

    The Kurds were selling oil there too. Not at the same Turkish border crossings, because the Turks who were either “unaware of the smuggling” or “unable to stop the smuggling” of the lower than market price black market oil, those Turks were able to somehow keep the marketplace organized and orderly.
    Remarkable.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-russia-turkey/russia-says-it-has-proof-turkey-involved-in-islamic-state-oil-trade-idUSKBN0TL19S20151202

    Who is going to be the first to call me a Russian asset? (I prefer to be called a bot. I want that to be my gender pronoun)

    steveg (354706)

  260. it probably does, it’s the key commodity, in the region, that and hashish, which is more particular to the bekaa valley,

    narciso (d1f714)

  261. I thought everyone just sold figs to each other

    steveg (354706)

  262. You would be mistaken, rifaat assad (hafez brother) now living in marbella was the local kingpin.

    narciso (d1f714)

  263. We have secured the Oil.”

    This is the explanation of that:

    There are some oil fields in Syria that are/were controlled by the Kurds. (They sold the oil mainly to the Syrian government) Donald Trump has got some crude, as well as semi-outdated ideas here.

    So anyway he was persuaded to keep a small number of U.S. troops in Syria to prevent the oil from falling into the hands of ISIS (and also keep it in the hands of the Kurds, which means there will be still be some Kurdish controlled territory)

    It is not clear whether he opposes the oil fields falling into the hands of the Syrian government – which he does regard as an enemy because of its alliance with Iran) or if he simply can’t imagine that, and thinks the alternative to the Kurds is ISIS.

    In the meantime he thinks American oil companies might operate the oil field (and pump more pil) this giving a secure source of income to the Kurdish territory (operate in a war zone? Under legally questionable rule? Kurdish territory is not legally recognized by anyone. Yes, it is trchnically athe Syrian Defense Forces, but that’s still not a recognized government of Syria by anybody but only a contender.

    There are also I read some preparatons going on for a possible conflict with Turkey. The United States has probably moved its nuclear weapons (which Turkey couldn’t use anyway even if it seized them because of locks – and it would be some technical feat merely to extract the plutonium) and was thiinkng of lowering the number of U.S. trops in Turkey. Erdogan is believed to be intereested in getting a nuclear bomb and Turkey earlier was probably A Q Khan’s fourth customer.

    Turkey occupying that much territory in Syria so that it would have the oil fields would pose a risk of genocide. He’s certainl;y being warned about that by the Kurdish commander. He doesn’t want it overrun 100%. So there’s that also going on.

    The Pentagon is also making contingency plans in case Trump orders a sudden withdrawal from Afghanistan. They figure, you never know what he might order, so better be prepared.

    Sammy Finkelman (0d0ca8)

  264. Trump’s on the TeeVee live right now embarrassing America, and frankly all adults. Talking up that the reason Turkey and Russia were able to make the deal on Northern Syria was because America caused it to happen. He thinks that’s a good thing. He’s yet to state a true thing, but started off completely with the wrong takeaway, and got wronger, maybe the wrongest, the best most wrong.

    What a moron; impeach, Article 4 of the 25th amendment, defeated in an election, don’t care, must go.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  265. Remember Baghdad Bob?

    nk (dbc370)

  266. President Trump just gave a speech in which I think he said: (I heard only excerpts)

    1) The wars (over sand) have been going on for a long time.

    2) The wars have been started by people in the United States.

    3) To create refugees to bring to the United States.

    4) Which will bring terrorists to the United States.

    5) The United States should stay out of them.

    6) But now that we got involved we brought peace.

    7) Sanctions against Turkey are being removed because Turkey stopped its advance.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  267. Sammy, that sounds like anti american propaganda. If Trump doesn’t like our country, or thinks foreign policy is only important as far as playing this reelection game goes, we need to remove him from office. The GOP needs to find a spine.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  268. Retreat from the Middle East because bombing the middle east creates terrorists?

    That’s a AOC talking point. fwiw. Not saying it’s wrong but it’s not standard GOP fare.

    JRH (52aed3)

  269. Lipstick on a pig, by a pig, for the pigs who voted for the pig.

    nk (dbc370)

  270. that’s what duckworth and durbin would say,

    https://kyleorton1991.wordpress.com/

    narciso (d1f714)

  271. Bwahahahahaaha, but then with Durbin losing the Turban(s) and actually facing a third-party challenge from our own version of the McDowell family patriarch (guess the movie, now about to have a sequel), he might actually follow through on that…

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  272. initially he had lois lerner, covering his back with salvi, how does governor pretzel, midnight marauding the citizenry,

    narciso (d1f714)

  273. Everyone wants America and Americans to be safe but foreign conflicts ultimately involve America. The world is no longer big enough for us to shelter-in-place.

    We should consider whether it makes sense to participate in the early stages of conflicts, but we pay a much greater price when we refuse to engage until the conflicts become wars.

    DRJ (15874d)

  274. More about the speech (partially from Newsweek)

    Trump was told by Kurdish General Mazloum Kobani Abdi that all ISIS prisoners have been secured Some escaped but have largely since been recaptured. General Mazloum thanked him and he thanks General Mazloum.

    Turkey’s commitments under the ceasefire include ensuring that religious and ethnic minorities are protected. He expects that to happen, but sanctions could be imposed. Also Turkey will back up the Kurds in regards to ISIS if the Kurds falter.

    A “small” number of U.S. troops will remain in the region to guard oil. The U.S. will decide what will be done with the oil at a later time.
    ————————————————

    This agreement was achieved with 3 days of fighting in the course of which no U.S. military forces were involved. This was something really special. The agreement would not have happened without the fighting. Some people wanted the U.S. to be at war with Turkey, a NATO ally. Tens of thousands of American troops would have been involved against Turkey.

    A safe zone has been sought for many decades and the Kurds have been fighting for centuries (?)

    We were supposed to be in Syria for 30 days almost 10 years ago (before the Arab Spring?)

    We spent $8 trillion on wars in the Midde East never wanting to win those wars. And the Middle East in worse off.

    Immigration security is national security.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  275. So Sammy, do you suppose if this thing holds up (against all odds IMNSHO) Trump will be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize? Speaking hypothetically, of course.

    PTw (894877)

  276. PTw (894877) — 10/23/2019 @ 12:28 pm

    Sammy, do you suppose if this thing holds up (against all odds IMNSHO) Trump will be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize? Speaking hypothetically, of course.

    No, although Trump talks like he deserves it.

    In his Nobel speech, he will explain that we needed 3 days worth of fighting between Turkey and the Kurds to get this peace agreement and this war was far less bloody, and over much sooner, than the war that would have happened had the Kurds not fought the Turks alone. (So it was a good thing it happened) And that U.S. economic pressure, particularly tariffs on Turkish steel, plus the fact that it wasn’t so easy for Turkey, brought it to an end.

    I think it will hold up for now in the sense that Turkey will not go any further into Syria. But Russia may be involved in patrolling the Turkish “safe zone.” Worse, some bandit ex-Islamist militias are Turkey’s allies. They can be expected to kill important Kurds. All political and military figures (and many others) will get out of the Turkish/Russian/ex-al Qaeda safe zone along the border with Turkey.

    Erdogan wants to dump up to 2 million Syrian refugees into the “safe zones” or zones so he needs quiet at least until he’s deported all the people he’s going to deport. Forcing refugees back into Syria, even a non-Assad ruled part of Syria is against refugee conventions. I don’t think anyone will go there voluntarily except for people from other parts of Syria who can’t get out of Syria to a truly safe place.

    As for the remaining Kurdish territory, they will be safe as long as the U.S. keeps some troops there and is prepared to fight any advancing column of Syrian and Russian troops who come to attack, as they did before.

    Also Syria is getting oil from the Kurds (for money), and the U.S. could destroy that capability of Syria tried to seize them. Trump has no desire to enrich Assad, which means Iran and Hezbollah, which would happen by letting him have the oil without paying somebody else for it, so that it is all right until and unless he gets nervous.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  277. But wait i thought it was fake accusation:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S8BFVh_oOAM

    narciso (fb20d3)

  278. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/23/turkey-russia-northern-syria-erdogan-putin

    How Turkey and Russia Carved Up Northern Syria

    ….During a six-hour meeting at the Black Sea resort of Sochi on Tuesday, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Russian President Vladimir Putin effectively carved up northeastern Syria between themselves, after the abrupt withdrawal of U.S. troops paved the way for a bloody Turkish incursion across the border. The United States was not present at the meeting.

    …Just hours later, U.S. President Donald Trump announced in a White House address that Erdogan had agreed to halt his offensive and make the tentative cease-fire agreement that Vice President Mike Pence brokered last week permanent….

    Putin and Erdogan appear to be agreeing not to fight but merely to take control. The 10-point memorandum signed by the two leaders on Oct. 22 essentially divides up the region, where the Syrian Kurds had built a fragile but peaceful democracy over the past four years as they fought and ultimately defeated the Islamic State’s physical caliphate.

    Starting at noon on Oct. 23, fighters with the People’s Protection Units (YPG), which makes up the backbone of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), must begin withdrawing from the Syrian-Turkish border. At that time, Russian military police and Syrian border guards will enter the Syrian side of the Turkish-Syrian border on either side of the Turkish incursion to facilitate the removal of YPG fighters and their weapons.

    The YPG will have 150 hours, or just under a week, to retreat roughly 20 miles from a 260-mile stretch of the border, from just north of Manbij in the west to the Iraqi border in the east. After the withdrawal is complete, joint Russian-Turkish military patrols will begin along a 6-mile-deep stretch of border to the west and east of the Turkish incursion.

    The agreement also cements Turkish gains made in the incursion, which the Turks have dubbed “Operation Peace Spring.” This effectively cedes a rectangular piece of formerly Kurdish-held land about 75 miles wide and 20 miles deep to Turkey and its Syrian proxies…

    Buoyed by U.S. military backing, the Syrian Kurds had built a fragile democracy comprising self-governing subregions, called Rojava, which up until two weeks ago accounted for about a third of Syria.

    It also likely means the violence will continue throughout northern Syria. Turkish-backed proxies, primarily composed of defectors from Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s army who have links to violent extremist groups, have terrorized the historically Kurdish population of the region and are reported to have committed atrocities including executing prisoners, looting villages, and freeing Islamic State prisoners, as well as allegedly using white phosphorus to target civilians. It’s unlikely that this activity will stop now that Turkey and its proxies have international approval to control the area.

    Scores of Kurdish fighters and civilians have already died in Turkey’s two-week incursion, and hundreds of thousands of residents have fled their homes. More will likely be displaced, as Erdogan has vowed to resettled 2-3 million Syrian refugees living in Turkey, including Arabs, to traditionally Kurdish land….

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  279. There were about 12,000 ISIS related prisoners (including women and children?) and the pro-ISIS people seem to have had control of the prison camps, attacking people who leave ISIS or leave ISIS’s interpretation of Islam, or seem to.

    The number who escaped without being recaptured is over 100, which the media all over, apparently echoing Congressional Democrats, seemed to be trying to make into a contradiction of what Trump said, but it’s not. It tallies perfectly. IF there are, say, 3,000 fighters, and 100 escaped, most of them did not.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

Leave a Reply

Comment moderation is enabled. Your comment may take some time to appear.


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.9374 secs.