Patterico's Pontifications

10/17/2019

Deal Struck: Turkey Agrees To 5-Day Ceasefire, No New U.S. Sanctions (UPDATE ADDED)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 2:14 pm



[guest post by Dana]

After meeting with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Vice-President Mike Pence made the announcement:

After an hours-long meeting, Vice President Mike Pence announced on Thursday afternoon that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has agreed to a ceasefire in northern Syria.

The vice president said Turkey would pause its invasion for 120 hours in order to allow Kurdish allies to withdraw from the safe zone of the border region. Pence said the leaders committed to defeating ISIS and renewed an agreement to “coordinate efforts on detention facilities and internally displaced persons in formerly ISIS-controlled areas.”

The U.S. agreed not to put new sanctions in place and to end the current sanctions if the ceasefire holds.

It appears that the Kurds will comply with the agreement:

The commander of Kurdish-led forces in Syria has told Kurdish TV that they will abide by a cease-fire agreement announced in Ankara by U.S. Vice President Mike Pence.

Mazloum Abdi tells Ronahi TV that the extent of the cease-fire stretches 100 kilometers (60 miles) from the town of Tal Abyad to Ras al-Ayn.

That appeared to conflict with Turkey’s insistence that its “safe zone” from which Kurdish forces must be removed should stretch the entire length of the border from the Euphrates River to Iraq.

“We will do whatever we can for the success of the cease-fire agreement,” Mazloum said Thursday, describing it as a “tentative agreement.”

President Trump was exultant on Twitter:

It depends on one’s definition of “tough love”:

Meanwhile, Turkish prime minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said at a press conference that, “this is not a cease fire”:

“The US side has accepted the necessity of a safe zone to protect Turkey’s security interests. And we have reached a full agreement for the Turkish army to control this zone,” he told a news conference in Ankara.

“This is not a ceasefire, a ceasefire can only be made only between two legitimate sides,” he said, adding that withdrawing Kurdish fighters will return their heavy weapons and destroy their fortifications.

Winners and losers: :

It sounds like Erdogan’s going to get everything he wants here, a territory cleansed of Kurds, and he’ll get it without having to risk the lives of any more Turkish troops. Even better for him, if the Kurds refuse to retreat, Erdogan can then start shooting again and claim that it’s the Kurds who are defying the United States now, not him.

And this:

“The announcement today is being portrayed as a victory. It is far from a victory. Serious questions remain about how the decision was reached precipitously to withdraw from Syria and why that decision was reached,” Romney said.

[…]

“Adding insult to dishonor, the administration speaks cavalierly, even flippantly, even as our ally has suffered death and casualty,” Romney said. “We once abandoned a red line. Now we abandon an ally.”

“The decision to abandon the Kurds violates one of our most sacred duties. It strikes at American honor. What we have done to the Kurds will stand as a bloodstain in the annals of American history,” Romney continued.

UPDATE: Reports are coming in that Turkey has already violated the ceasefire:

Shelling and artillery fire was reported Friday in the border town of Ras al-Ain, one of the targets of Turkey’s week-old offensive against Kurdish fighters, who have long been backed by the United States.

The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) told CNN that shelling by the Turkish military and the Syrian rebel proxies supporting them has hit a number of civilian areas in Ras al-Ain, including a hospital. The SDF says five fighters were killed in the attack.

“SDF are committed to the ceasefire, but from last night until this morning we are seeing shelling on Ras al-Ain by the Turkish military and its mercenaries on SDF and civilian Kurdish targets, and in particular on the Ras al-Ain hospital in the city this morning,” SDF Press Commander Merivan Qamishlo said.

“The situation inside the Ras al-Ain Hospital is catastrophic. Three ambulance vehicles belonging to the Kurdish Red Crescent were prevented from entering and were shot at. The city is completely surrounded by air and ground from the Turkish military,” he added.

UPDATE BY PATTERICO:

(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)

–Dana

311 Responses to “Deal Struck: Turkey Agrees To 5-Day Ceasefire, No New U.S. Sanctions (UPDATE ADDED)”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (05f22b)

  2. “Mike Pence, clean-up on aisle two.”

    norcal (eec1aa)

  3. I am proud of the United States for sticking by me

    Because the best thing we as Americans can do is love Trump. And how exactly does he think we all “stuck by him” when everyone but his unconditional devotees has been aghast? That’s his fantasy-land thinking again.

    But you see, Turkey “had to have it cleaned out” — i.e. kill a bunch of Kurds. And Donnie’s friend Erdogan is “a hell of a leader, and a tough man, a strong man,” so he got the job done — or rather, the first phase of it.

    Hold on a sec: Didn’t our Great President sternly tell his friend “Don’t be a tough guy!”

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  4. “This is a situation where everybody is happy,” says Trump. And the Kurds in particular are “very happy with the solution.”
    How does Trump know this? Because everything he does is perfect and brilliant and wonderful in his owm mind.

    Come on, people: You know that’s how Trump thinks. That doesn’t mean you have to agree.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  5. Never met a dictator he didn’t like.

    Dave (1bb933)

  6. Why should anyone be surprised that a coward negotiates a coward’s exit?

    Even the Trumpkins are having a hard time keeping up the facade, at this point.

    Leviticus (aeff30)

  7. The Kurds are really boxed in, and there really isn’t much of a choice for them to make. Literally, a live or die agreement.

    Dana (05f22b)

  8. A great day for civilization – Trump the master of understatement

    rcocean (1a839e)

  9. Even the Trumpkins are having a hard time keeping up the facade, at this point.

    They’re well trained. The Pavlovian conditioning will kick in, just wait.

    Dave (1bb933)

  10. Gosh, Trump really screwed this one up. A ceasefire. Just what we didn’t want. We wanted Turkey to turn its tail and run in response to our tough talk, finger wagging, and sanctions. If only Mittens were in charge!

    rcocean (1a839e)

  11. I am proud of the United States for sticking by me

    He’s insulated from the fact everyone says he screwed up in one of the most terrible foreign policy moves… in our nation’s entire history. Advise the president of that and you’ll get the John Bolton treatment. Fire everyone who isn’t a kiss-ass yes man and eventually you wind up making ridiculous mistakes.

    And the only thing Trump loves more than a dictator is a dictator with fresh blood on his hands. GOP needs to dump this administration now.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  12. Trump haters are acting like Pavlovian dogs. Just hear the name Trump, insults result. Facts? Immaterial. Gosh, writing like a Trump hater is easy!

    rcocean (1a839e)

  13. President Graham has stated he is cautiously optimistic. President’s Romney and Pelosi have yet to be heard from.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  14. Time to buck-and-wing the traditional ‘outrage’ concern act by congresscritters for the TeeVee cameras: “… thoughts and prayers….thoughts and prayers…”

    Busy Americans will hold a vigil of their own tonight at Yankee Stadium–under the lights, 8 PM EDT.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  15. if there were any justice they wouldnt make mr president donald wait a whole year for the nobel peace prize and they would give him all the nobel prizes today

    Dave (1bb933)

  16. I seriously doubt that all these Congressmen are so concerned about the Kurds. So you wonder who’s pulling their strings to make them so anti-Turkey. Of course, its some big donors or some powerful pressure domestic group. Or maybe its the Saudi’s or the Israeli’s. Something is pushing this congressional hysteria over Syria, and its not the american people. I wish someone would do some real reporting for a change.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  17. Trump haters are acting like Pavlovian dogs. Just hear the name Trump, insults result. Facts? Immaterial.

    What fact is material to this and would justify praising Trump? Our allies are not only killed, but are no longer allies. A bloody islamist dicator got everything he wanted, easily. US installations were destroyed. We look embarrassed and weak on the national stage. Trump had to beg and got 5 days of maybe ceasefire and then nothing.

    It is amazing to me that you are saying the facts here prove Trump’s critics are unreasonable. In essence, you are saying Trump’s decisions here are so freaking amazing that the people saying they aren’t must be beyond factual reasoning. That’s a bold statement!

    Dustin (6d7686)

  18. Millions of lives will be saved.

    LOL

    Dave (1bb933)

  19. I seriously doubt that all these Congressmen are so concerned about the Kurds.

    The fate of the Kurds has been a major foreign policy issue for many decades. Until Trump got a bunch of them exploded it was also one for him. Why would you question the integrity of everyone who stayed on the same point of view, to defend someone who flip flopped for no (American justified) reason?

    Dustin (6d7686)

  20. When i say hysteria in congress over Turkey-syria i’m excluding the D’s. They just want to attack Trump. Its all about 2020 elections, just like it always is with them. They have no core beliefs except power and hating R’s. It’s the R’s I’m curious about. What pressure group always has Lindsey Graham on TV screeching about the Kurds?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  21. The fate of the Kurds has been a major foreign policy issue for many decades.

    I’m assuming that’s sarcasm. Because most American’s couldn’t tell a Kurd from a Syrian. And couldn’t tell you how many Kurds there were or what countries they lived in.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  22. So whaddaya think, pontificators – does Trump leave the White House in hand-cuffs, or in a straitjacket?

    I’d say straitjacket is trending…

    Dave (1bb933)

  23. Remember, at the President’s invitation, Erdogan will visit the White House in November. State dinner, anyone??

    Dana (05f22b)

  24. DNC Talking point: Trump loves dictators, especially Putin. Been hearing it since August 2016. Hillary is still saying it.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  25. @20. Graham’s ‘pressure group’??

    Hanes & Jockey. They’ve put a tight squeeze on him. He outta go back to Victoria’s Secret.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  26. I’m assuming that’s sarcasm.

    You know what they say about assumptions.

    Remember that joke from 1991? What does Saddam and Little Bo Peep have in common? Both have Kurds in their way? The Kurds have been a major issue in US Foreign policy for at least that long. I can’t believe you’ve never heard about them. https://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-35967389

    Take a few minutes away from defending Trump from the most ridiculous and universally accepted mistake in the history of idiots, and learn about why the Kurds are so important to our ability to project power in that part of the world. Of course… now they are going to hate us for 200 years or something but it is pretty interesting.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  27. @23. Serving ‘Kurds’ & Whey, perhaps??

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  28. Remember, at the President’s invitation, Erdogan will visit the White House in November. State dinner, anyone??

    So, we shouldn’t have state dinners for the Turkey President. What about Xi? Is it every President or just Erdogan? Are all dictators out for state dinners? What about the Saudi’s or Putin or Castro? You tell me.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  29. @23. Hearse. At his age with his bulk and diet–expect him to punch out in Term Two sometime like Tim Russert– only face down in a piece of German chocolate cake between two scoops of Dolly Madison vanilla.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  30. November?
    Turkey dinner for Erdogan??
    Please, please, please tell me it’s scheduled for the last Thursday of the month!!!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  31. #26 you said it was a MAJOR objective of US foreign policy. and you offer a BBC quote. I didn’t realize we could have that as a MAJOR objective, when no one talks about it.

    Its certainly not a MAJOR objective for Trump. Maybe you can dig up an Obama quote justifying the troops in Syria and how it was all about the Kurds – i thought it was about isis. Here’s a good explanation of the Kurds in Syria and Turkey:

    https://www.vox.com/world/2019/10/16/20908262/turkey-syria-kurds-trump-invasion-questions

    rcocean (1a839e)

  32. Oops– @29 was for Dave at #22.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  33. Erogan in the white house on thanksgiving – The turkey from turkey is having Turkey.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  34. Remember, at the President’s invitation, Erdogan will visit the White House in November. State dinner, anyone??

    Dana (05f22b) — 10/17/2019 @ 3:32 pm

    A hero’s welcome. Maybe Trump’s friends in the Taliban (ISIS… these guys are ISIS) can reconsider Trump’s invitation and they can share a plane.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  35. Millions of lives will be saved!

    Dave (1bb933)

  36. “Well, it was an amazing phone call,” Trump said. “I mean, 40 Wall Street actually was the second tallest building in downtown Manhattan, and it was actually before the World Trade Center the tallest, and then when they built the World Trade Center it became known as the second tallest, and now it’s the tallest.”

    He continued: “And I just spoke to my people, and they said it’s the most unbelievable sight, it’s probably seven or eight blocks away from the World Trade Center, and yet Wall Street is littered with two feet of stone and brick and mortar and steel.”

    Now that Trump is acting like he wants to honor the Taliban at Camp David… his difficulty concealing his joy on 9/11 is a bit more understandable. The GOP made a mistake. It’s time to accept reality.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  37. Thank you Erdogan for saving millions of lives! Please accept this presidential medal of unfreedom!

    Dustin (6d7686)

  38. RC, just because you haven’t heard of the Kurds doesn’t mean no one else has.

    Time123 (096e87)

  39. There was more in Romney’s speech:

    But while that line will get lots of play, there’s something else Romney said that shouldn’t escape notice. He also floated a theory about how Trump arrived at the decision: that he got bullied into it by Turkey, and that he backed down.
    “It’s been … suggested that Turkey may have called America’s bluff, telling the president they are coming no matter what we did,” Romney said. “If that’s so, we should know it. For it would tell us a great deal about how we should deal with Turkey, now and in the future.”
    Romney then returned to the idea that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan might have given Trump an ultimatum that was met with acquiescence.
    “Are we so weak and inept diplomatically that Turkey forced the hand of the United States of America? Turkey!?” Romney said. “I believe that it’s imperative that public hearings are held to answer these questions, and I hope the Senate is able to conduct those hearings next week.”

    Since we’re likely going to get the word-for-word transcript from the Trump-Zelensky call, we might as well get the Trump-Erdogan transcript.
    Bottom line, Erdogan got everything he wanted, without even getting sanctioned, and the Kurds were completely betrayed by Trump. This is nothing short of a disaster. If Trump is going to change his story so severely about the Kurds, where else will he reverse his story.
    https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1184900289628913664

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  40. The Kurds are really boxed in, and there really isn’t much of a choice for them to make. Literally, a live or die agreement.

    Hence they are pivoting their alliance to Assad (Iran), and Russia. They have to live in the region, and live with the realities of the region.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  41. #26 you said it was a MAJOR objective of US foreign policy.

    Many of Trump’s campaign promises in foreign policy related specifically to ISIS. The Kurds were central to that effort. This is a major foreign policy objective. I would say ‘was’ but ISIS became a threat again because we betrayed our allies in this crucial foreign policy theater.

    Look, just admit Trump really screwed up in a horrible way. You don’t need to do this. It’s pointless to defend what Trump did.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  42. DNC Talking point

    Trumpsters tell themselves that criticism of Trump couldn’t possibly rest on watching and listening to Trump. It’s just gullible people falling for “media narratives” or “DNC talking points.”

    Whereas the people who always believe Trump and trust that he’s always right aren’t gullible at all. Not a bit.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  43. Look, just admit Trump really screwed up in a horrible way. You don’t need to do this. It’s pointless to defend what Trump did.

    Even if a personal worldview was to remove US troops all of those foreign sh!tholes, the way Trump’s idiotic method in withdrawal is both militarily ignorant (hello, having to bomb you’re own arms depot because of lack of planning), as well as being politically stupid. Any future partners of American joint operations will have significant headwinds, especially under Trump.

    Of course, this is par for the Trump course. He has no ability to think one move behind, usually he’s 10, even when he has a cheat sheet in hand, he can’t be bothered to look at it. Moron, incapable of carrying out the duties of president.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  44. The fact that a decision made by POTUS has resulted in the release/escape of ISIS prisoners/affiliates informs us all as to the lack of wisdom and foresight involved in the decision making. How can this be seen as anything but the reconstitution of a deadly plague on the region, and putting untold numbers of innocent populations at risk once again?

    Dana (05f22b)

  45. DNC Talking point: Trump loves dictators, especially Putin. Been hearing it since August 2016. Hillary is still saying it.

    Facts aren’t talking points, that’s just objectively true. If the DNC is telling you that water is wet, it doesn’t make you agree with their policies, it just makes them right on a fact.

    Calling out a statement of objective reality as bad, because of who’s saying the true thing, is more of a you problem.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  46. Munich, September 30, 1938.

    nk (dbc370)

  47. If I were a Kurdish commander I would consider the same approach.

    They are faced by a larger better armed enemy. In that situation conventional battle is not the best tactic.

    Better to retreat and rearm. Then take a Guerilla approach. One known tactic is the feigned retreat. They can draw the enemy further and use ambush and small scale attacks then withdraw again. This forces the Turks to cover more syrian territory. It would be a long term effort however the Kurds are keeping their major base of operations intact.

    There are also political considerations. They can try and reconcile further with Assad who may be willing to give them semi autonomy. At some point Assad and the Russians are not going to tolerate a permanent Turkish presence.

    In any case a five day ceasefire is meaningless.

    Now if Trump can just stay out of it…oh well too much to hope for.

    Echo (e92c55)

  48. If the DNC is telling you that water is wet, it doesn’t make you agree with their policies, it just makes them right on a fact.

    It’s a quaint habit of Trumpists to answer any inconvenient report by pointing to the source – and there are very few news sources that they don’t assume are always lying about Trump. Those are people who cheered when Shep Smith announced his departure from FOX; they saw him as horribly biased by TDS. Now they want Chris Wallace gone, because he isn’t properly worshipful of Trump.

    There really are people who believe that the true truth is always favorable to Trump, and they want to cocoon themselves in a world where that belief isn’t challenged.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  49. Now if Trump can just stay out of it…oh well too much to hope for.

    Trump cannot allow for his mistakes to without restating his position that he always intended for [insert outcome here] to happen, even if that requires self refuting arguments, simultaneously. For him, reality is only what he believes it is…right now…I mean right now…no, right now…

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  50. to _linger_

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  51. @16 I certainly remember discussion of the Kurds from the early 90s when they rebelled against Saddam Hussein and I was a teenager. There’s also been an ongoing issue since we took down Saddam and the Kurds had the only functional quasi-governmental state AND there has been an ongoing concern about Kurdish civil rights in S. eastern Turkey. Part of the reason we didn’t split Iraq into 3 parts was the Kurdish issue and Turkish concerns. It’s possible you weren’t paying attention back then, but it has been an ongoing political concern for decades.

    Nic (896fdf)

  52. So Congress takes all of August off… they come back and announce an ‘impeachment inquiry…’ Supposedly serious stuff… then they then take two more weeks off… return, go to a WH meeting and the “leaders” literally walk out… again, dodging work…

    Do any of those bums realize the image their projecting? Do any of them actually work at their jobs? No wonder Trump– and the rest of the country doesn’t take them seriously.

    It’s October 17 and by their own published calendar, both chambers will be in session just 28 days for the rest of in 2019.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  53. Maybe you hear from the people involved:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/dlshadothman/status/1184917619771658241

    narciso (d1f714)

  54. This isn’t a ceasefire, it is a surrender to a dictator. How is that a great day for civilization? It is a great day for dictators, not civilized peoples.

    DRJ (15874d)

  55. Here is a link to Trump’s Texas rally. Plenty of supporters there.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k01bC4zhMNM

    It is on topic because he will most likely explain how today’s fantastic deal came together.

    Enjoy! Try to not be so angry.

    BuDuh (7e7cfb)

  56. Nero would approve.

    DRJ (15874d)

  57. Thank you, BuDuh, but I’ve already made plans to go down to the river and hear the ducks quack before they fly south for the winter.

    nk (dbc370)

  58. Lest you forget those 241 ‘peacekeeper’ Marines blown up in Beirut 36 years ago next week, there’s never a nice, tidy way to disengage from these situations– and particularly the filth and scum that passed for the wretched toilet we call the Middle East on Planet Earth.

    Remember old footage from ’75? When millions of dollars worth of perfectly good helicopters were being shoved off the decks of ships to make room for more coming in loaded with refugees fleeing South Vietnam? You can’t help but think of all the municipalities and hospitals in America that could have used those choppers for police, fire and medevac purposes. It’s a dirty job to pack up, leave and clean up after meddling mistakes– be it Vietnam or the Middle East.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  59. Hey guys, think about some of the worst things in American history. Focus on them and compare them to Trump’s behavior. This is a good way to tell that Trump’s performance is quote “fantastic.” On account of how we need you to think of 241 American heroes being murdered and compare this to that. Great job.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  60. @59. Perhaps ‘We’ll be greeted as liberators’ fits your pistol. Or maybe the 1973 oil crisis they lit off jiggles your memory… A few wars, a several trillion dollars ago, and yes, 36 years back next week, in the Reagan days, when 241 “peacekeeping” Marines were blown up heroicly in their sleep in Beirut, lessons were still being learned the hard way at great cost.

    Everybody in the Middle East is the ‘enemy’ Dustin. America has no ‘friends’ there; no “allies” – only interests; chiefly business interests. They’ll all turn on a dime– especially when the dimes and dollars stop coming their way. America stiffs us last week? Let’s do a deal w/Al-Assad or Putin this week. We sell them all arms to fight– then they hustle us to pay them not to fight. The tribes and carpet bazaar clans have been scoring that scam on empires and assorted nations that come and go there for centuries; they’ve been squabbling over the rocks and sand for 2,000 years.

    These days their chief export is terror; their only manufactured product: rubble. And the corporate armies of the past 100 years or so are mainly interested only in what’s under it: oil. If the place had noting but feldspar and granite beneath it, America wouldn’t give a damn– or waste a dollar or life over the place. And they know it.

    Plenty of well-armed camps there to take up the slack. Stick a few Israelis in as ‘peacekeepers’ and see what happens. They’ll start scamming and slaughtering Russians soon enough, too.

    Cats would make for better “allies” — as long as you keep feeding them.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. @47. If “I” was a Kurdish commander, I’d follow suit w/South Vietnamese commanders, grab a helicopter, my family, all the jewels and gold I could swipe and and fly out to a U.S. carrier and either land or ditch– and start a new life running a McDonald’s in Long Beach.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. 10. rcocean (1a839e) — 10/17/2019 @ 3:17 pm

    . A ceasefire. Just what we didn’t want. We wanted Turkey to turn its tail and run in response to our tough talk, finger wagging, and sanctions. If only Mittens were in charge!

    It’s approximately what happened in Cyprus in 1974, except that Turkey after having stopped its advance once, went for some more then. But they did stop.

    The question is: Does this depend on there being no Kurdish controlled area left in Syria?

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  63. Dustin @26. This is a different Kurdish political group from the ones in charge in Iraq.

    Sammy Finkelman (3ce3e5)

  64. FYI, I had an abbreviated statement/quote from the commander of the Kurds, and have inserted another portion so that it reads more completely. Apologies for any confusion:

    The commander of Kurdish-led forces in Syria has told Kurdish TV that they will abide by a cease-fire agreement announced in Ankara by U.S. Vice President Mike Pence.

    Mazloum Abdi tells Ronahi TV that the extent of the cease-fire stretches 100 kilometers (60 miles) from the town of Tal Abyad to Ras al-Ayn.

    That appeared to conflict with Turkey’s insistence that its “safe zone” from which Kurdish forces must be removed should stretch the entire length of the border from the Euphrates River to Iraq.

    “We will do whatever we can for the success of the cease-fire agreement,” Mazloum said Thursday, describing it as a “tentative agreement.”

    With that, the additional information reflects a conflict over the distance of the “safe zone”.

    Dana (05f22b)

  65. And it’s interesting that Erdogan will be meeting with Putin in Sochi 6 days from now.

    Dana (05f22b)

  66. @58 the great thing about Reagan is he admitted he was wrong, and got the hell out. He betrayed our noble Lebanese allies! It was a bloodstain on American history! Except it wasn’t and it saved lots of MORE American kids from getting killed in a useless, never ending ME war.

    Its funny how the two Presidents in my lifetime Trump and Reagan were labeled “dumb” and “trigger happy” by the MSM and Democrats, haven’t gotten us into any major wars.

    So,sorry all you neo-con warhawks. The bombing mission to Istanbul has been cancelled. But don’t worry, keep those “Its Munich all over again!” signs handy. Trump wants to get out of Afghanistan.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  67. A British newspaper noted that Erdogan’s scheduled meeting with Putin coincides with the length of the “ceasefire”, Dana.

    nk (dbc370)

  68. Everybody in the Middle East is the ‘enemy’ Dustin. America has no ‘friends’ there

    Well sure, that’s true now thanks to your boy Trump.

    Freedom isn’t free. That’s a bumper sticker and I resist that kind of argument, but it’s true. Bring ’em all home no matter what that means is a lazy explanation for the tremendous consequences. The GOP needs to be accountable for Trump and dump him.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  69. keep those “Its Munich all over again!”

    We know how to spell “it’s”. Covfefe and liddle’ too. With the hyphen.

    nk (dbc370)

  70. The question is: Does this depend on there being no Kurdish controlled area left in Syria?

    I didn’t know this, but Turkey already has a “Safe Zone” on the Syrian border but its in the eastern part of Syria. Why wasn’t I told about this? It sounds like Hitler. Anyway, that maybe one reason why Turkey wants a ‘safe zone’ in Western Syria. It may also want a “safe zone’ Because the KUrds and Turks have fought before in the 21st Century and thousand of people got killed. that’s why Trump said the Kurds are “no angels”. Y’see the kurds in Syria are committing terrorism in turkey because they want a free Kurdistan. But anyway, the Kurds are great, and the Turks are evil -mittens said so.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  71. NK – you’re not worth me proofreading.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  72. Didn’t Germany and Russia make a pact after Munich too?

    nk (dbc370)

  73. My spelling and grammar would be much better if all i did was regurgitate DNC talking points. After all, they’re pre-written. Just cut and paste.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  74. It’s “nk”. Lowercase. And I’m crushed.

    nk (dbc370)

  75. #72 didn’t they make a secret pact in the 1920’s too?

    rcocean (1a839e)

  76. Trump and Reagan had nothing in common rcocean. Reagan would confidently stand tall against any evil enemy. Trump is only brave when it’s against a twitter user or actress, and is genuinely cowardly against evil. Which is only natural, but he said he could lead the free world.

    The ‘Trump is a victim’ thing is getting real, real stale. Stop crying about Trump being a victim of criticism for anything he screws up.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  77. NK – you’re not worth me proofreading.

    rcocean (1a839e) — 10/17/2019 @ 7:02 pm

    you’re bitter and cruz support/buhduh is writing comments and ‘hoping it doesn’t make us angry’

    Why are you guys bitter? We’re the losers and you’re the winners. Trump won a landslide election and America is great again. Cheer up. You told us so and everything Trump promised has definitely happened. We were fooled to say he seemed dumb.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  78. The Kurds are worried about ethnic cleansing, Netanyahu is on record as fearing that for the Kurds as well. Why has Trump places his trust in Erdogan, and not American allies?

    Dana (705967)

  79. @66. Let’s not go overboard; Reagan changed the channel by invading Grenada. All it would take is Miller to whisper ‘Puerto Rico’ into Trump’s ear and he’d have troops landing in San Juan at dawn before somebody shouted, ‘Oops!’

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  80. “It’s Munich all over again!”

    Less Munich, 1938 and more Munich, 1972: wretched, scummy and scruffy Middle Easterners shot up that place, in Olympic fashion, too. Besides, Nazis were better dressers.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  81. Trump and Reagan had nothing in common rcocean. Reagan would confidently stand tall against any evil enemy. Trump is only brave when it’s against a twitter user or actress, and is genuinely cowardly against evil. Which is only natural, but he said he could lead the free world.

    The ‘Trump is a victim’ thing is getting real, real stale. Stop crying about Trump being a victim of criticism for anything he screws up.

    Thank you, Dustin! Well said! It bears reposting.

    nk (dbc370)

  82. The Kurds are worried about ethnic cleansing,

    Trump tells us “What Turkey is getting now is they are not going to have to kill millions of people.” I guess they would have had to if El Trumpo hadn’t stepped in to prevent another world war, single-handedly. But now the Kurds can rest easy and be “very happy.”

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  83. Trump and Reagan had nothing in common

    Except the skill of media manipulation, multiple marriages, infidelity and multiple marriages, a cross party vote history, the need for hair dye and literally producing their own fake news; Trump by TV and tweet; Reagan by radio.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  84. I suggest a modified version of the “24 Hour Rule” may be appropriate here.

    This may work out. Of course, it may not, but I offer that it is too soon to tell.

    Did Obama achieve much in Syria in his 8 years, Red Line and all? I also keep thinking about that definition of madness being repeating the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result.

    jim2 (a5dc71)

  85. It’s a little disturbing to see so many people upset about a cease fire instead of some shooting between the players in the region.

    BTW, this is going to really mess up the impeachment plans. Pence just went into a crazy situation with his serious face, sat down with Erdogan for 90 minutes and got a ceasefire. The D’s we saw on stage the other night don’t want to run against that.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  86. Good question, no real answer apparently:

    Even Pentagon officials were mystified about where tens of thousands of displaced Kurds would go, as they moved south from the Turkey-Syria border as required by the deal — if they agree to go at all.”

    Dana (05f22b)

  87. Do you honestly believe what you wrote, Frosty? That “You have five days to get off this land so we can occupy it, leaving all your weapons behind” is a ceasefire?

    I dunno, it sounds more like an ethnic cleansing cum surrender to me.

    nk (dbc370)

  88. Five days to get out and go where? Will Turkey allow them to leave?

    Dana (05f22b)

  89. No we must jump to conclusions, those are the rules.

    narciso (d1f714)

  90. This is a great day for civilization!

    Dave (1bb933)

  91. “It’s a little disturbing to see so many people upset about a cease fire instead of some shooting between the players in the region.”

    – Frosty

    Spoken like a true Vichy.

    Some fights are worth having.

    Leviticus (aeff30)

  92. Half of the D’s, Frosty, half of the D’s.

    urbanleftbehind (2c5e2c)

  93. 84: Powerline long ago went into “Trump is always right” mode, except for one contributor who sometimes adds nuance — “maybe Trump did something a little less than ideal here” — and then the commenters overwhelmingly pile on with insults. They think any criticism of Trump arises from bad faith.

    What’s pretty funny is how quickly they pulled out the champagne to celebrate what they want to believe is a complete and total victory for Trump — that is, a political victory for him personally — right after he announced the so-called “ceasefire,” while they simultaneously disparage everyone who criticized Trump’s action instead of waiting to see how things worked out.

    The irony escapes them. The only principle is: Trump must always be seen as correct, and anyone who questions his wisdom must be crushed.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  94. @84 and @86 Trump effed with the sewer pipe until he broke it, now he’s going, “Look, I put all the sewage in a big barrel!!!!! Now you aren’t walking in it any more!!!!!” and expecting people to suddenly forget that there wasn’t any sewage on the floor BEFORE he effed with the sewer pipe until he broke it. Bad news, the rest of us are still mad because now we have a poorly repaired sewer pipe AND a barrel of sewage.

    Nic (896fdf)

  95. Here is the quoted link within Dana’s “good question” link at 7:56:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/17/world/middleeast/trump-pence-syria-turkey-ceasefire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

    I don’t see any identification of the “Pentagon officials.”

    BuDuh (7e7cfb)

  96. @88 It doesn’t matter what I believe. It matters how it looks to most people who care a lot less about it than you.

    Yesterday the news was pulling out was going to trigger a bloodbath, detention camps were going unguarded, etc. Pence went to Turkey and the bloodbath has been kicked down the road a bit. We’ll see what tomorrow looks like.

    But right now this is a positive for Pence and things positive for Pence change the impeachment equation.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  97. Most of the Senate Rs up for reelection are in relatively “safe” red states. Their biggest fear should be being primaried by Trumpkins. If the Senate trial can be held past the primaries, Trump will go down in history as the first President to have been impeached and removed by the Senate.

    Is it too much to hope for that the Senate will disqualify him from holding any Office under the United States nunc pro tunc to January 20, 2017 and erase him from the list of Presidents altogether?

    nk (dbc370)

  98. Trump’s “brilliant” Syria strategy, summarized.

    Dave (1bb933)

  99. Some fights are worth having.

    Some aren’t.

    This is one of them. See #60.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  100. @92 Wow! The other day I was pro-ISIS and now we’ve moved on to Nazi collaborators. Can I be some sort of pro-Russian stooge next? Not a Cossack, that doesn’t fit. I’ll leave it up to more creative people.

    @94 I was thinking something similar but slightly different.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  101. Trump and Reagan had nothing in common

    Except the skill of media manipulation, multiple marriages, infidelity and multiple marriages, a cross party vote history, the need for hair dye and literally producing their own fake news; Trump by TV and tweet; Reagan by radio.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/17/2019 @ 7:29 pm

    Your desperate and trollish efforts to worship Trump only highlight how they had nothing in common.

    You just can’t compare Nancy Reagan to that illegal alien prostitute Trump married when he dumped his last aging wife… after dumping the previous one. Trump moves on married women ‘like a bitch’ he says, no matter if his wife is in labor. All men lust. All men screw this up on some level. Trump celebrates being a pervert who uses women. He even bragged about doing this without their consent, and against their will, because “they let you when you’re a star.” Reagan was a decent human being.

    Reagan had excellent hair and style. Trump’s style is that of someone who surrounds himself with people who can’t be honest. If one of his servants told him how he looked, with that idiotic hair, that servant would be fired.

    Reagan was beloved. Trump has the highest ‘we need to impeach’ poll figure of any president other than Nixon.

    Reagan voted his conscience, and though he did cross party lines, it was really more honest to say his party crossed ideological lines. Trump shamelessly flip flops basically all the time. Yes, he’s raised money for planned parenthood and talked about banning guns. Yes he criticized Romney for being too tough on illegal immigration. And of course, he promised never to forget the Kurds who died for us in the tens of thousands (his words). But Trump’s change of heart does not at all resemble the uniter, Reagan’s, principles.

    Thank you for showing us how silly such a view would be.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  102. Guy Benson:

    Apply the exact same fact pattern, but reverse the parties, & every single conservative in America would be describing today’s events — Rudy’s machinations, quid pro quo parsing, G7 self-dealing, etc. — with this word: Corruption.
    We all know it. We don’t all want to admit it.

    Yup.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  103. Can I be some sort of pro-Russian stooge next?

    Done!

    :)

    Dave (1bb933)

  104. Our Captain’s brilliant Syria strategy “summarized”:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihcd1XlnF24

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  105. General Mattis, the man who said, “Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.”

    “I’m not just an overrated general. I’m the most overrated general,” Mattis says. “I’m honored to be considered that by Donald Trump because he also called Meryl Streep an overrated actress. So I guess I’m the Meryl Streep of generals, and frankly that sounds pretty good to me.”

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  106. @104 That’s just being lazy. Vichy was creative.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  107. Mattis: “I’ve earned my spurs on the battlefield; Donald Trump earned his spurs in a letter from a doctor.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  108. @102.You just can’t compare Nancy Reagan…

    Yes, you can; she got herself knocked up w/Patti then roped and tied Ronnie. Reagan voted for that evil, no good, anti-capitalist, socialist Franklin Delano Roosevelt– four times.

    The list goes on and on– but keep tryin’! Encourage you to keep shouting “Reagan” in 2020.

    The sound of crickets is soothing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  109. That’s just being lazy.

    Guilty as charged…

    Dave (1bb933)

  110. Yes, you can; she got herself knocked up w/Patti then roped and tied Ronnie. Reagan voted for that evil, no good, anti-capitalist, socialist Franklin Delano Roosevelt– four times.

    Absurd and angry. You show us why your view is unserious and I’m not sure why I’d even bother doing more than quoting you.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  111. Meanwhile…..

    UN Watch
    @UNWatch
    BREAKING: Venezuela beats Costa Rica by 9 votes to win election to UN Human Rights Council.

    _

    harkin (6776a3)

  112. Its a rather rotten council, who next mordor midian

    narciso (d1f714)

  113. There was also something called the Soviet Union which Reagan made never-happen. Not to mention a Soviet Bloc. A Berlin Wall. An Iron Curtain. All gone bye-bye.

    Now, if someone were to suggest that Putin is Reagan and Trump is Gorbachev, that would be worthy of consideration.

    nk (dbc370)

  114. @109. Dave, he earned a record, too: in a talk reported by the WE, Mattis noted he was twice jailed in his youth.

    Felicity Huffman and Jim Mattis have done more time than Donald Trump ever will– or Richard Nixon ever did.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  115. A Republican source inside the Trump-Pelosi meeting described attendees as “shaken” and “shell-shocked” by the President’s demeanor. “He is not in control of himself. It is all yelling and screaming.”

    https://twitter.com/joshscampbell/status/1184953968364908545

    That’s narcissistic rage. Trump does not have a plan that’s wiser than anything his critics could ever devise. It is not the critics who are suffering derangement.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  116. “And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything. hehehehehehehe [drools on his third chin].”

    -DSCSA’s memory of Ronald Reagan

    Dustin (6d7686)

  117. Josh campbells, comeys coffee fetcher

    https://southpark.cc.com/full-episodes/s23e04-let-them-eat-goo

    narciso (d1f714)

  118. Well that was kitty kellys innuendo that maureen dowd mainstreemed into the post

    narciso (d1f714)

  119. @116. Myth making is so “Hollywood;” the Berlin Wall fell on Pappy Bush’s watch and at East Germany’s hand; the USSR dissolved t their on hands and on his watch as well– and 45 years of American foreign policy, from Truman through GHWB, help end the Soviet Union along with their own internal failures and foreign forays– including Middle East meddling in a place called Afghanistan.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  120. 120: He’s not the only one reporting it. But no matter who reported it, the True Believers would impugn the source — and continue to take Trump at his word without reservation.

    Anyway, what the GOP source described is just a somewhat more extreme version of what those of us with open eyes have been seeing for a long time. There’s a reason why the Trump administration has had such an extraordinarily high turnover (or attrition) rate.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  121. @119. You’re confused.

    “Reagan liked a good joke. The dirtier– I’m afraid, the more ethnic, the better.” – Walter Cronkite, ‘Cronkite Remembers’ 1997 CBS News

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  122. As soon as someone who has generally been favorable toward Trump begins expressing criticism, the True Believers will say that the person is succumbing to TDS. In Trumplandia, the only reliable sources about Trump are people who love Trump. Everyone else is “biased.” In Trumplandia, “anti-Trump” is a synonym for “evil.”

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  123. @102. Reagan was beloved.

    That would be be news to Ron and Patti.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  124. Read sebestyens 1989, all the lead up went before,

    narciso (d1f714)

  125. Because there is literally nothing praise-worthy about Trump, his cultists feel compelled to try to drag everyone else down to his level.

    It’s pathetic to witness.

    Dave (1bb933)

  126. @121. Calendar girl Patti.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  127. @128. Only the draggable.

    And Rudy leads that list– and it is pathetic to witness:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_rmNJk4KEs

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  128. “Reagan liked a good joke. The dirtier– I’m afraid, the more ethnic, the better.” – Walter Cronkite, ‘Cronkite Remembers’ 1997 CBS News

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/17/2019 @ 9:11 pm

    I’m sorry but insulting Reagan for liking dark humor has very little to do with comparing his remarrying to groping women against their will. I don’t understand why you’re relating those concepts except that you want to, as Dave said, drag everyone down.

    When Republicans compare anyone to Reagan they are saying that subject is amazing. Reagan is the leader who made America great again and won the hard part of the cold war. Saying ‘Reagan is horrible’ is not a very good way to make Trump look like a great man.

    Like I said, you’re self-parody. You can’t make the case you wanted, so now you make it by saying Reagan was horrible. Of course anyone can say MLK and George Washington were horrible. Maybe you can even prove it with some accurate snippets that ignore their accomplishments. But it’s so deliberate to see them that way that it just doesn’t work. It’s self-parody.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  129. A Republican source inside the Trump-Pelosi meeting described attendees as “shaken” and “shell-shocked” by the President’s demeanor. “He is not in control of himself. It is all yelling and screaming.”

    Funny that Trump is all that in front of Pelosi, but in front of an adversarial dictator like Erdogan, where real human lives are at stake? He’s a mewling little pussycat.

    “I just want to thank and congratulate President Erdogan. He’s a friend of mine and I’m glad we didn’t have a problem because frankly he is a hell of a leader and a tough man, a strong man.”

    Of course Trump is a friend. Since he declared his candidacy, he’s received somewhere between $3.2 million and $17 million in royalties from Trump Towers Istanbul, getting paid for putting his name on buildings that he doesn’t own.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  130. Of course Trump is a friend. Since he declared his candidacy, he’s received somewhere between $3.2 million and $17 million in royalties from Trump Towers Istanbul, getting paid for putting his name on buildings that he doesn’t own.

    Plus four weekends in a Turkish prison to be named later.

    nk (dbc370)

  131. At his rally in Dallas tonight:

    Trump says it was good to let the Turks attack the Kurds. “Sometimes you have to let them fight like two kids,” he tells rally in Dallas. “Then you pull them apart.”

    I just can’t even.

    Dana (05f22b)

  132. @131. Don’t apologize; character counts. Well, only when it’s “our guy” and not “your guy.”

    “When Republicans compare anyone to Reagan”… they’re fools. Especially in 2020. As Trump rightly said, Reagan ‘was a longggg time ago.’ He left office in 1989- 30 years ago. But do keep shouting his name. Don’t you recall people longingly shouting FDR 30 years after he left– in 1975?

    No. You don’t.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  133. The Supreme Leader nailed it.

    In historic peace agreement brokered by Donald Trump, US Kurdish allies may flee into hands of Syrian, Russian, and Iranian armies.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  134. Just look at the sh-t day he had— then watch Trump’s rally in Dallas tonight. Packed with happy people; entertaining and feisty. He’ll beat the raps in the Senate, wear impeachment as a badge of honor, steam roll over the weenies at the DNC debate to Term Two.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  135. I just can’t even.

    You’re not alone

    Dave (1bb933)

  136. I just can’t even.

    Have you seen this, Dana? I doesn’t offer a cure, but apparently the syndrome is recognized. (I’m a little amused about the “Bothell” part, as I’m somewhat acquainted with the place.)

    https://babylonbee.com/news/millennial-diagnosed-tragic-inability-even

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  137. entertaining and feisty

    Just what we need in a president. Though I don’t find Trump to be remotely entertaining.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  138. then watch Trump’s rally in Dallas tonight

    I’d rather shoot myself in the head.

    Dave (1bb933)

  139. That is a parody account, Paul.

    BuDuh (7e7cfb)

  140. Then you couldnt split atoms with your mi d anymore, what exactly have we accomplished in afghanistan when only 40% of the country is in govt hands, and what ade the prospects for improvement.

    narciso (d1f714)

  141. I found his full quote:

    “It was unconventional what I did,” Trump said. “Sometimes you have to let them fight a little while; then people find out how tough the fighting is … It’s like two kids … you gotta let them fight and then you pull them apart.”

    Dana (05f22b)

  142. So weve been there by standards that vietnam would be 1982, if a company of soldiers makes that big a difference, then we never leave, no matter how many green on blue attacks there. Meanwhile we cater to qatar and turkey as if they were our friends.

    narciso (d1f714)

  143. They fund and give sanctuary to all the groups ive mentioned, and others in europe and even the usn

    narciso (d1f714)

  144. Happy Texans in Dallas: the Donald Trump, Gohmert, Cornyn and America’s Canadian ‘man-of-principles’ Ted Cruz hypocritical lovefest tonight was absolutely hilarious.

    Big Media haters should have seen Chuck Todd and Andrea Mitchell near-on camera strokes reporting all the events of the day, too.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  145. Meanwhile the nba knows where to genuflect to.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/thejcoop/status/1185018710496595968

    narciso (d1f714)

  146. 142: I’m fairly confident that Paul knows it’s a parody account. But parody always begins with some element of truth. And a striking feature of the Trump era is that the facts are often hard to parody because they’re so strange already.

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  147. That is a parody account, Paul.

    Um, duh. Good parody works when it strikes close to the truth, like how the Bee does it.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  148. The Twitter account is a parody, its account of the so-called ceasefire “brokered” by Ponce and Pimpeo is the truth.

    nk (dbc370)

  149. Also true is this.

    Failed Donald Trump flunky Sebastian Gorka described as suppurating human infected anal sac, bursting with blood and pus.

    No parody whatsoever.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  150. The news is the parody, they cant report a straight story even if stapled to their headals, the pic from the cabinet meeting us symptomatic.

    narciso (d1f714)

  151. @152 Sometimes I miss happyfeet.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  152. Yes ridicule of someone whose father fought the soviets, when it mattered in the heart of the cold war, who saw the next big threat not as a punchline.

    narciso (d1f714)

  153. The son did, while ben rhodes wrote unpublished fiction

    narciso (d1f714)

  154. DSCSA,

    You greatly admire Cronkite. Is that where you get your disdain for Reagan, or is it something else?

    DRJ (15874d)

  155. @152 Sometimes I miss happyfeet.

    I think you can catch his act over at Instapundit. Here’s one of his comments from yesterday:

    joe biden puts cocaine out for his family the way other people put catfood out for the kitties

    literally

    Dave (1bb933)

  156. @157. Of course not. WC’s assessment, in his memoir years, was honed from decades of covering him, and his own.

    If you’re sick of Reality TeeVee Trump, blame the Hollywood Reagans; Ron and Nancy accelerated the gilded era of credit card prosperity, of manipulating images over substance fostering the entertain-us-don’t-govern-us culture that gave birth to and nurtured “The Donald.” Trump is their Frankenstein. It was inevitable– and will eventually burn out one day but not for a while. He surrounded himself with bad people, too: ideologues. Even with an affable smile, trickle down was trickle on for the bulk of the people. His Hollywood period on camera and off, speaks for itself. But if he’d won an Oscar for King’s Row— and he should have– he’d never have left Tinseltown for GE TV and the rubber chicken circuit.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  157. Cavusoglu is nearer the mark so far. As of 5 hours ago there was apparently artillery strikes near the Syrian-Turkish border at a town called Ras al-Ain (Sere Kaniye in Kurdish).

    Meanwhile the Syrian Arab Army/Assad loyalist militias have hurriedly occupied, or tried to occupy, a collection of strategic towns like Manbij and Tell Rifaat.

    Hopefully the SNA, the various Kurdish groups operating under the SDF, and the Turkish military will give them a suitably warm welcome.

    JP (24566b)

  158. @134. Rest easy, Dana. Over at MSNBC this morning, Mika and hubby Joe were so over-the-top ripping Trump’s comments at that incredible, helluva show rally full of happy Texans, the exasperated TV couple began to blame the Dallas crowd for being fools. Yes, calling Texans– with Cornyn and Cruz in the crowd, ‘fools’ on live television.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  159. The bad guy won, now it’s about his lickspittles running around praising what happened.

    To be clear Erdrogan is the bad guy. Trump is the lickspittle.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  160. It’s frustrating how little respect our ally has for the agreements they make with us.

    Here’s the Turkish FM’s statement

    After Pence’s announcement, Turkey’s Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said: “This is not a ceasefire. We will pause the operation for 120 hours in order for the terrorists to leave. We will only stop the operation if our conditions are met.”

    I guess that means they’ll do whatever they want and US leadership is free to like it or not.

    Or did our leaders know this and just lie to us about what was happening?

    Time123 (7cca75)

  161. Or did our leaders know this and just lie to us about what was happening?

    That is the likeliest explanation. The finocchio wanted a fig leaf, and his ponce Pence and his pimp Pompeo provided him with one.

    nk (dbc370)

  162. NK, I think you’re right, but what’s really amazing is that Erdogan didn’t have enough respect to give him even 24 hours to do a victory lap. Turkey clearly has no respect for the US, and clearly has no respect, or consideration for President Trump.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  163. @152 Sometimes I miss happyfeet.

    I don’t, but you can always find him at Instapundit if you need a fix undiluted Trump worship.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  164. Turkey clearly has no respect for the US, and clearly has no respect, or consideration for President Trump.

    This principle is old, but true as fate,
    Kings may love treason, but the traitor hate.
    Thomas Dekker — The Honest W[][]re. Pt. I. Act IV. Sc. 4.

    nk (dbc370)

  165. @158 Yes, but if I’m over there I might miss out on how Reagan was awesome because he had great hair or get hard hitting criticism of Trump cultists, by Reagan cultists.

    I liked Reagan but those comments remind me of the joke where the stewardess trips running down the aisle when the pilot leaves his mic on.

    Frosty, Fp (bc49ba)

  166. I like happyfeet, he’s my friend, and I’m very sorry to hear (I don’t go there myself) that he’s now wading in the sewer that is Instapander.

    nk (dbc370)

  167. Oh not the daily kos light this place has become, yes we can dead ambassadors that the dnc laughed all about. Specially when the calls for assistancd

    narciso (d1f714)

  168. We played this stupid game, for 5 years, when they collaborated with erdogan againd ayriam

    narciso (d1f714)

  169. Does omidyar you require you abandon all logic

    https://thedispatch.com/

    narciso (d1f714)

  170. I refer to general flynns memo about the salafist state from 2012.

    narciso (d1f714)

  171. What new pablum for the Trump haters will this day bring?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  172. The free syrian army, yes lindsays boys did the grunt work.

    narciso (d1f714)

  173. I like happyfeet, too, but I don’t miss him.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  174. “ This Syria situation is not a simple matter. The Pols in DC and the meth heads on TV like to pretend it is, but it’s not. It’s the single biggest mess on Earth.
    The Adderall junkies say we just need a small number of troops and we’re not going to get sucked into deeper involvement, but “Stand with the Kurds” means deeper involvement. This is what getting sucked in looks like.
    They call the Kurds our allies, but we have no formal agreement. The Turks are our formal allies, even though Erdogan sucks.
    They say the Kurds helped us fight ISIS, but actually, we helped the Kurds fight ISIS. We fought together, it’s true, but the Turks have fought alongside our troops many times over the years as well.
    If you want deeper involvement in Syria, just say so. Congress staged a rebuke of Trump, but it’s their responsibility to declare war. They could introduce a bill to go fight for the Kurds, but they don’t. And it wouldn’t pass if they did. It’s all posturing. It’s all about domestic politics for the Adderall junkies.
    It’s not all politics for the Kurds, of course, but who promised the Kurds we would help them fight NATO member Turkey? How could they expect us to to do that? The answers are “no one” and “they don’t.”

    — – Bob Boyd

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  175. CH, I don’t know. It will be tough to top the last week in terms of stupid things he’s done.

    Time123 (ecd105)

  176. We went over this part in another thread.

    It’s not all politics for the Kurds, of course, but who promised the Kurds we would help them fight NATO member Turkey? How could they expect us to to do that? The answers are “no one” and “they don’t.”

    It’s the wrong questions and you know it. What we did was broker a deal this summer where the Kurds would take down their defenses in exchange for a guaranteed safe zone. The three parties to the deal were the US, the Kurds, and Turkey.

    Then our president told Turkey the could violate the agreement.

    You know this but it makes your mascot look like the temperamental wimp he is. So you keep throwing up talking points that ignore it.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  177. Also, I don’t know who Bob Boyd is but his analysis let’s Trump off the hook for allowing the situation to develop in the first place. If he didn’t want to support a safe zone why did his administration join in the commitment in the first place?

    I’ll answer my own question.

    Because he’s a weak leader who is failing to focus his organization around his strategic priorities in an effective way. Then he gets frustrated at what his people produce and does something stupid.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  178. Thanks to Donald Trump, there is peace in our time.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  179. Reagan liked a good joke. The dirtier– I’m afraid, the more ethnic, the better.” – Walter Cronkite, ‘Cronkite Remembers’ 1997 CBS News

    How often did Cronkite ever talk privately with Reagan? He was a super-leftist and wasn’t a friend. I have a hard time believing “walter” sat down with Reagan and had a beer. Sounds just like more lies from a CBS leftist trying to “do his bit for the Revolution”.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  180. Uncle Walter was a bigger fake then Big Dan the Reporter man. We just didn’t have the internet to point it out. And Cronkite was smarter then dumbo Dan.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  181. I’ve got more of a wait n’ see attitude…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  182. They used to do that here, cartman took another thwack at king james.

    narciso (3e2620)

  183. Cronkite couldnt tell that tet was the last gasp of the vietcong, engel had much the same category error in 06

    narciso (3e2620)

  184. What new pablum for the Trump haters will this day bring?

    Dunno. What did Kellyanne feed Trump?

    nk (dbc370)

  185. That would be be news to Ron and Patti.

    Did a nicer guy ever have two more creepy kids. Of course, back in those days, the kids were Mom’s responsibility and Dad’s didn’t get involved to the extent they do today. So maybe you could blame Nancy.

    Anyway, its hilarious that Patti is now speaking for her Dad, given she refused to call herself Reagan, and attacked him publicly throughout the 70s and 80s. As for Ron Jr. – what an embarrassment. The Ballet dancer. Harvard drop out. Lefty and Freedom from Religion. Ugh. The good thing is neither of them had kids. The weirdness ends with them.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  186. @118 “a republican source” = fake made up.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  187. That reminds me, atheists were advertising at the dnc debate, pazuzu would have been too obvious.

    narciso (3e2620)

  188. I”m glad MIttens is being quoted. What a plastic clown this guy is. He’s trying to be the the “New Maverick” and failing. He’s more like the “New Jeff Flake”. I didn’t like johnny mccain, but the guy had some street cred when talking about Defense/Foreign policy since he’d served in the Navy, was a war hero, and was interested in those subjects throughout his long Congressional/Senatorial career.

    Mittens on the other hand is a draft dodger and has zero defense/foreign policy experience. Unlike Trump he’s not President, he’s just a 10 month Senator. But that doesn’t stop him from Popping off constantly. It must annoy the Senators who’ve been studying these matters for 6 years or more.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  189. Of course, that’s a pattern with Mittens. He’s not a conservative, but he played one in the 2008 and 2012 R primaries and criticized other R’s for not being conservative enough. He’s Mr. White Bread Rich Guy but that doesn’t stop him calling Trump a Racist and a Homophobe. Mittens knows nothing for Foreign Policy or Defense but that doesn’t stop him from adopting an attitude of superiority and attacking Trump. He plays the expert in Business mattters and attacks Trump who has 5x his net worth.
    He’s a weird pompous jackass, the new Jeff Flake.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  190. 182 – Paul, so who is Poland next year?

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  191. Mitt knows how to marry one woman and stay married to her. Which supposedly is the “definition of marriage.” Back in the old days conservatives said that spoke a lot about someones fitness to lead the nation. Trump knows only how to love and serve his own ego. He stays faithful to absolutely no one.

    JRH (52aed3)

  192. RC, You seem way more angry than normal.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  193. Reports are coming in that Turkey has already violated the ceasefire:

    Shelling and artillery fire was reported Friday in the border town of Ras al-Ain, one of the targets of Turkey’s week-old offensive against Kurdish fighters, who have long been backed by the United States.

    The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) told CNN that shelling by the Turkish military and the Syrian rebel proxies supporting them has hit a number of civilian areas in Ras al-Ain, including a hospital. The SDF says five fighters were killed in the attack.

    “SDF are committed to the ceasefire, but from last night until this morning we are seeing shelling on Ras al-Ain by the Turkish military and its mercenaries on SDF and civilian Kurdish targets, and in particular on the Ras al-Ain hospital in the city this morning,” SDF Press Commander Merivan Qamishlo said.

    “The situation inside the Ras al-Ain Hospital is catastrophic. Three ambulance vehicles belonging to the Kurdish Red Crescent were prevented from entering and were shot at. The city is completely surrounded by air and ground from the Turkish military,” he added.

    Dana (05f22b)

  194. Comparing Reagan to Trump is like comparing John Wayne to Divine.

    As for Cronkite, I lived in Chicago. I got my news from WGN (whose studio BTW was across from my high school) and from McNeil-Lehrer on WTTW.

    And that’s the way it is, this 1,001st day of the decline and fall of America.

    nk (dbc370)

  195. 182 – Paul, so who is Poland next year?

    Probably Afghanistan, but that assumes Trump will be around next year. It’s not a given.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  196. 188… nk? I thought you’d be on your way to Syria by now…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  197. I failed the physical, Haiku. Bone spurs.

    nk (dbc370)

  198. Romney is such a pussy, being the only GOP Senator who’s had the stones to stand up to Trump and criticize him for both Ukraine and Syrian Kurdistan, even though 90% of the party still approves of Trump’s job performance. So what does make the rest of the GOP Senators, double pussies? Extreme pussies? Cowards? Hypocrites? Yes to all.

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  199. @175 My guess is Trump will say something about the weather over breakfast, maybe something like “It looks like a nice sunny day today, I like sunny days with a clear blue sky, everybody likes sunny days, I wish we had more of them.” Before lunch, we’ll see a headline like “Sources inside the White House flabbergasted. Concerned over attempts to control the weather.” A little after lunch the narrative will shift because “Experts assure us the sky is not, in fact, blue is Trump delusional? We’ve got noted astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson on next to explain.” Sometime around mid-afternoon or just before dinner, we’ll learn the weather in Moscow was also sunny today and we’ll hear “An anonymous source inside the IC has told us that Putin likes to spend time outside and appreciates sunny days. This is well documented (shows photos of Putin fishing). Was this a coded message to Moscow?” Then the nightlies will shift between Pelosi wanting to expand the impeachment inquiry into this unconstitutional use of the color blue and Romney discussing the decision making process behind Trump using this method to communicate with Putin.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  200. UPDATE BY PATTERICO:

    Patterico (115b1f)

  201. Stolen from twitter from @Doc_0 that is worthy of debate here:

    Three key questions about Syria no one seems to be asking or answering:

    1. Are the Turks lying about the security threat from Syrian Kurds?

    2. Were the Turks going to attack even if U.S. troops remained?
    If that’s the case, Turkey has committed one of the worst crimes against the international community in recent memory. NATO membership should be revoked and regime change in Ankara should be on the table. Turkey should be removed from every U.N. committee.
    3. Was the U.S. expected to garrison that part of Syria forever?

    What’s your take on these questions?? Continuing….

    A great deal hinges on question 1. If the Turks are lying about the Syrian Kurdish YPG working with the terrorist PKK, then they’ve perpetrated a massive fraud to justify invading another country and ethnically cleansing part of its territory.

    If that’s the case, Turkey has committed one of the worst crimes against the international community in recent memory. NATO membership should be revoked and regime change in Ankara should be on the table. Turkey should be removed from every U.N. committee.

    NATO absolutely cannot countenance one of its members conducting an ethnic cleansing campaign and killing a large number of people, including civilians, in an aggressive war on foreign soil launched under false pretenses. It’s an attack on the charter purpose of the organization.

    The United Nations should view Recep Erdogan on the same level as Slobodan Milosevic in that scenario. His actions would be a clear violation of numerous U.N. charters. He would have jeopardized the international fight against ISIS over a paranoid delusion.

    No one in the international community is taking any of those steps. NATO just repeated that Turkey’s membership is not in jeopardy. The U.N. is not holding emergency sessions to condemn Erdogan and begin war crimes prosecutions.

    I have not heard any U.S. critic of President Trump’s withdrawal of troops accuse the Turks of lying about the YPG. That should be Item Number One in their critique of Trump’s policy, but it isn’t. Some of those critics sit on congressional intel committees.

    If the Turks are NOT lying about the YPG, then keeping U.S. troops in place to prevent Turkish action against a real security threat would be tantamount to America shielding terrorists while they conduct operations against a NATO ally.

    Turkish accusations against the YPG predate the Syrian civil war. The Turks have been loudly warning for years that they would take action to secure the Syrian border region if an agreement could not be reached with U.S. assistance to resolve the security threat.

    There was plenty of time to thoroughly investigate Turkey’s allegations and come up with a solution short of war if they were true. That effort should have involved all parties invested in northeastern Syria – NATO, UN, EU. It should have involved U.S. agencies and Congress.

    If the determination was reached that Turkey’s accusations were invalid, all of those entities should have warned Turkey in unison that an invasion would be met with combined military force plus expulsion from NATO. What matter on NATO’s table is more serious at the moment?

    The Democrats should have stopped wasting America’s time with their impeachment role playing game and actually DONE THEIR DAMN JOBS by authorizing military force against Turkey. That signal to Erdogan would have been unmistakable.

    And if thorough investigation proved the Turkish allegations against the YPG were not without merit, then in what sane world was the solution to keep a handful of American troops standing in the way forever, without any formal accusations against Turkey for slandering the YPG?

    That’s not a coherent policy – it’s sheer laziness. It’s every international organization abandoning its duties, its very PURPOSE, and settling back for a nice long nap because the Americans will take care of everything.

    The U.N. fritters away vast sums of money on trivia, spends days fooling around with teenage climate activists, blasts out globalist propaganda, and finds 20 reasons a day to condemn Israel. It couldn’t be bothered to condemn Turkey for lying about the YPG and gearing up for war?

    I’d like to re-iterate that the YPG Kurds *are* the PKK. (hell, even the Iraqi Kurds calls the YPG “PKK Kurds”)

    While the PKK are deemed a terrorist organization, they’r not a ‘transnational terrorist’ organization, ala ISIS. However, they *ARE* at war with Turkey. And as it stands, Turkey is a NATO ally and they are waaaaay too many folks hand-waving this away.

    Question 2 is also important. If Turkey could no longer be dissuaded from carrying out the invasion they warned they were ready to undertake, then either our people in NE Syria would have been risking their lives for nothing, or they’d be the tripwire for war with Turkey.

    The U.S. was not ready to fight that war, not without grueling casualties. We have a lot of people based in Turkey, and we heavily depend on one of their airbases, which has U.S. nuclear weapons. What happens to the people and equipment if we’re suddenly shooting at Turks?

    The Turks are sending every conceivable signal that they were absolutely determined to launch their operation and are loudly stating nothing will stop them from completing it. Sure, actions don’t always match words, but every bit of data we have suggests they meant business.

    People are laughing at Trump for sending that “don’t be tough guy” letter to Erodgan and him throwing it away and launching the invasion that afternoon. Erdogan’s behavior suggests he was determined to move, whether or not 20 or 50 U.S. soldiers stood in his way.

    The U.S. tried to work out a safe zone deal with Turkey and the Syrian Kurds for a long time. The negotiations fell apart. Nothing satisfying to Turkey could be arranged. The Turks loudly and clearly signaled they would take matters into their own hands. The clock ran out.

    This doesn’t nearly get enough attention.

    For those who criticise this move… here’s my question: Are *you* prepared to support a ‘trip wire’ force in this scenario? And if so, then what? Please answer these questions:
    1) For how long? that is, what’s the exit strategy?
    2) If the wires are “tripped”… explain how far you’re willing to go? All out war?

    Question 3 is important because if U.S. troops weren’t going to garrison that part of Syria forever, the Kurds were eventually going to have to make their peace with Bashar Assad, who is firmly seated in Damascus for the rest of his life thanks to Russia.

    Like it or not, the Assad regime is the government of Syria. The U.S., EU, and NATO did not go to war in Syria to prevent it. Russia DID go to war in Syria to make it happen. It is a fact on the ground. The last pockets of rebellion are being brutally exterminated.

    The U.S. cannot be expected to carve out a chunk of Syria and keep it independent in perpetuity as a de facto Kurdish state, ESPECIALLY if that state is also threatened with attack from Turkey, even more especially if that pseudo-state really is a threat to Turkey.

    I’m on the record as saying the Kurds should have a REAL, internationally-recognized state of their own. U.S. policy should support their effort to get one. But we can’t just give it to them, redrawing national borders with a handful of troops on perpetual deployment.

    If the international community deems the Turkish border region of Syria should be beyond the influence of either Ankara or Damascus, then the international community should have its international boots on the damn ground alongside American soldiers.

    The U.N. could have declared a permanent peacekeeping mission in the protectorate of northeast Syria, formally declared Assad’s control over the area invalid, formally notified Erdogan that he would go to war with the Western world by crossing that border.

    I don’t much care for Erdogan and Turkish elections are a joke, but by every standard of the U.N. and NATO, he is the legitimate head of a legitimate state. He should be dealt with as such, with clear and unambiguous measures, not left for the U.S. to manage like a tumor.

    The situation in Syria at the moment Trump withdrew U.S. troops was the worst of all possible worlds, a comprehensive failure of our arrogant and expensive international community. The three questions I asked are the questions EVERYONE should have been asking out loud.

    The problem is not that Trump wrote that odd letter to Erdogan. The problem is that NOBODY ELSE WROTE ANY LETTERS TO ERDOGAN. This should not have been Trump’s decision to make. Where was Congress, NATO, the UN? They were nowhere, doing nothing of importance. /end

    If you’re outraged by Trump’s actions, I would behoove the discussion that folks provide an actual alternative. I’ve read posts from this very site that the UN/NATO/EU should’ve helped… fine… those are alternatives. Why haven’t they done so?

    whembly (c30c83)

  202. My guess is Trump will say something about the weather over breakfast, maybe something like “It looks like a nice sunny day today, I like sunny days with a clear blue sky, everybody likes sunny days, I wish we had more of them.”

    Kellyanne will say: “Use your spoon, Donnie! You can eat Cheerios with your fingers only when we don’t put them in milk. When they’re in milk, you have to use your spoon. And stop making faces at Melania!”

    nk (dbc370)

  203. 201… LOL.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  204. Look do they really want to encourage the syrian army to get involved, that could really get nasty.

    narciso (3e2620)

  205. Teh Hildabeast says Russia grooming Tulsi Scabbard for a 3rd party run… JVW hardest hit…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  206. No one has any agency, coronello, the fact that 18 years of conflict have not yielded much success that cant be it, but she wants iran to hold the basket.

    narciso (3e2620)

  207. I like happyfeet, he’s my friend, and I’m very sorry to hear (I don’t go there myself) that he’s now wading in the sewer that is Instapander.

    What? You disapprove of the “Libertarian blog” that embraces “I have an Article 2 where I have the right to do whatever I want as president”?

    Dave (1bb933)

  208. Two weeks ago, if Obama said that “I have this great idea of letting Turkey massacre our ally, the Kurds, and release ISIS back into the world”, do you think 57% of Republicans would have said “heck ya, count me in”?

    Just wondering.

    noel (f22371)

  209. 212… who cares?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  210. I think my earlier post got nuked because of a swear word? Anyhoo… here are some questions I think is worth debating (stolen from twittah):
    Three key questions about Syria no one seems to be asking or answering:

    1. Are the Turks lying about the security threat from Syrian Kurds?

    2. Were the Turks going to attack even if U.S. troops remained?

    3. Was the U.S. expected to garrison that part of Syria forever?

    whembly (c30c83)

  211. @212 Bullseye.

    JRH (52aed3)

  212. The Republican Party has become a bonsai tree conforming daily to Trump’s twisted impulses.

    noel (f22371)

  213. Colonel Haiku: “who cares?”

    Now we are down to your most basic argument. Thanks for that.

    noel (f22371)

  214. @206 These are pretty easy to answer just summarizing the collective wisdom here:

    Q0: Alternatives are for chumps. This is on Trump to solve. Any alternative would be better.
    Q1: The honorable Kurds are honorable and aren’t a threat to Turkey. Another choice would be Turkey sucks and it’s a good thing the honorable Kurds are a threat to Turkey.
    Q2: Turkey wouldn’t have the stones to do this if we had a real president. With any other president, Turkey would just suck it up and deal with the non-existent but completely justifiable actions of the Kurds.
    Q3: Yes because ISIS and Putin feels and American pride.

    For your followup questions 1 and 2. These are false questions. Deterrence means fully committing to all-out war.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  215. Kellyanne will say: “Use your spoon, Donnie! You can eat Cheerios with your fingers only when we don’t put them in milk. When they’re in milk, you have to use your spoon. And stop making faces at Melania!”

    And then, as if on cue, the presidential sippy-cup will take flight yet again.

    Dave (1bb933)

  216. whembly (c30c83) — 10/18/2019 @ 8:27 am

    Your questions are moot, whembly, and maybe that’s why nobody is asking or answering them now. The situation is unalterably changed. In effect, Trump answered them for you when he betrayed our ally,

    Paul Montagu (00daa1)

  217. 217… Obama made the decisions on Syria, Iraq, Iran and Libya during his second term that we’re currently living and dealing with. Why the f*ck would anyone but a leftwinger care about what he thinks or says about anything?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  218. @214 it was there for a hot minute; it was @206

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  219. Why can’t the Kurds hire contractors to do obama’s Job?

    mg (46d47d)

  220. @214 maybe you triggered the “wall of text” rule.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  221. Colonel- the DNC made the mistake of sitting Tulsi next to Steyer on Tuesday night, who could be a bridge to other M-O-R (radio/music term) billionaires.

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  222. 1. Are the Turks lying about the security threat from Syrian Kurds? It’s complicated. They have legitimate concerns and there are Kurds in Turkey that are a security concern. The safe zone they agrees to last month was intended to address these concerns. Agreeing to a deal they did not intend to keep was bad faith on their part.

    2. Were the Turks going to attack even if U.S. troops remained? Unknowable. But unlikely.

    3. Was the U.S. expected to garrison that part of Syria forever? Of course not. But I think a reasonable answer would fall in between the eternity you’re asking about, and the few weeks we supported the safe zone. I would argue that seeing how the steady state performance of the safe worked would be reasonable. I could also argue that leaving in an orderly and manner that was transparent to our allies would have been reasonable.

    Time123 (80b471)

  223. Trump talked to Erdogan, who assured him everything is cool now:

    He told me there was minor sniper and mortar fire that was quickly eliminated. He very much wants the ceasefire, or pause, to work. Likewise, the Kurds want it, and the ultimate solution, to happen. Too bad there wasn’t…..

    Dana (05f22b)

  224. @219, this is a stupid summary of the comments here. Why do you have such a hard time grasping that there were alternatives available that didn’t results in war between the US and Turkey that we didn’t even try? Or that part of the immediate problem is that we made an agreement this summer that we’re not willing to support.

    Time123 (80b471)

  225. @229 trump is such a wus.

    Time123 (80b471)

  226. Oh, I think you got the point, Colonel Haiku. If Obama had come up with this crazy notion, Republicans would be screaming. Your problem isn’t with me. It’s with hypocrisy.

    noel (f22371)

  227. he empowered the free syrian army, ahram al sham, ahram sharqiyah, etc etc, those were brennan’s picks, lindsay paid for them, so did gowdy,

    narciso (d1f714)

  228. 230… you should learn to tolerate the opinions of other people.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  229. 232… I have 99 concerns, and you – most assuredly – aren’t one of ‘em.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  230. oh the clinton aide, nick merrill, who is dissing our favorite wahini, is the same one who told rowan farrow, his reporting was all wet,

    narciso (d1f714)

  231. Former Turkish ambassador to the United States mocks our president. He must be reading DNC talking points or listening to the NeverTrump haters. Otherwise he would admit that Trump pulled off a glorious victory for America.

    https://twitter.com/NamikTan/status/1185060253458714625

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  232. he has never been our friend, that’s the mistake made last year,

    https://dailycaller.com/2019/10/18/ice-deports-amir-abdelghani-to-sudan/

    narciso (d1f714)

  233. 230… you should learn to tolerate the opinions of other people.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/18/2019 @ 9:52 am

    I’m fine with other opinions. I think yours of ‘wait and see’ isn’t a bad approach in things like this FWIW.

    What bugged me was taking a thread I’d been pretty active in an miss-characterizing it so badly.

    But, since I don’t think Frosty is actually lacking in innate intelligence, stupid was an insulting thing to say. I shouldn’t have said it. I’m sorry that I did. I think inaccurate or dishonest would be a better characterization.

    Time123 (80b471)

  234. @230 It is a sarcastic summary of some of the relatively common comments here. Q0 is an almost direct quote from several of the comments here. Why turn the outrage dial to 11 and ripped it off? I don’t even need to be pro-Trump. I just point at some of the more ridiculous anti-Trump stuff and I’m pro-ISIS/Nazi. To steal from @232 your problem isn’t with me.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  235. your Q1 and Q3 irritated me and I was rude. I shouldn’t have been. I am sorry i was. If you meant it as a joke I missed it.

    Time123 (80b471)

  236. one must use the same words and arguments, of the post, the times the journal, et al, that’s not coordination, and outfits like the dispatch who I linked above, that’s what a 6 million dollar scam looks like,

    narciso (d1f714)

  237. #228

    1. Are the Turks lying about the security threat from Syrian Kurds? It’s complicated. They have legitimate concerns and there are Kurds in Turkey that are a security concern. The safe zone they agrees to last month was intended to address these concerns. Agreeing to a deal they did not intend to keep was bad faith on their part.

    My understanding was that the safe zone agreed to by Turkey did not include the Kurds. They always wanted the SYG/PKK Kurds out of that zone.

    2. Were the Turks going to attack even if U.S. troops remained? Unknowable. But unlikely.

    I disagree. The Turks were loud and clear about wanting to address their border issues with the Syrian Kurds. They were moving in.

    3. Was the U.S. expected to garrison that part of Syria forever? Of course not. But I think a reasonable answer would fall in between the eternity you’re asking about, and the few weeks we supported the safe zone. I would argue that seeing how the steady state performance of the safe worked would be reasonable. I could also argue that leaving in an orderly and manner that was transparent to our allies would have been reasonable.

    Time123 (80b471) — 10/18/2019 @ 9:18 am

    The problem with this statement was that the US was not really in position to enforce a safe zone. Frankly, something like this ought to be spearheaded by the international community, but those same international community had no interest here. So, while you do give a better response to my question of …and then what“… you still haven’t really fleshed it out. Are you saying that the US should capriciously carve out the safe zone in Syria? If so, are you prepared to support a “surge” of military assets in the region? Furthermore, what is the exit strategy here and what do you determine to be a success?

    whembly (c30c83)

  238. Colonel Haiku says you “should learn to tolerate the views of others”

    Funny.

    Lets see what he said a few comments earlier…. “Why the f*ck would anyone but a leftwinger care about what he thinks or says about anything?”

    noel (f22371)

  239. Well?

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  240. @189. “I’m having a hard time believing “walter” sat down with Reagan and had a beer…”

    =sigh= Stop making me laugh: ‘hard time, hard liquor’–

    https://www.cah.utexas.edu/db/dmr/image_lg/di_05812.jpg

    High spirits. Read his memoirs, rocean. You’re tilting at windmills in this area.

    _____

    @187. Wrong narcisy; bone up on your PP: ’twas the Pentagon that couldn’t– and wouldn’t– tell the truth.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  241. Noel, It doesn’t matter to me if CH is tolerant of the views of others or not. His point was correct, and it’s in line with the commenting rules on this blog.

    Time123 (89dfb2)

  242. The U.S. soldiers were, in amanner of speaking, human shields for the Kurds before, and the ceasefire, is premised on them continuing to be human shields whether people in Washington realize that or not.

    The ceasefire (which Turkey does not call a ceasefire on the grounds their opponent is not a legitiate combatant) apparently calls for the U.S. to evacuate the Syrian Democratic forces from areas Tyrley wants to occupy – which isn’t even specified!

    That means the basis of this ceasefire is that U.S. personnel may be present in the area.

    The SDF is an alliance between the Kurdish People’s Proection Units (abbreviated YPG), Assyrian hristian forces and various Arab tribal militias opt together by the United States Special forces in late 2015)

    Sammy Finkelman (0d0ca8)

  243. @198. Comparing Reagan to Trump is like comparing John Wayne to Divine…

    Yet the always effervescent Lindsey Graham does it all the time. Quite revealing.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  244. Trump spent the morning chatting up women spacewalkers then tweeted bye-byes to Texas Leaguer ‘Oops’ Perry. A full day’s work to be sure!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  245. As if the pentagon papers, self selected collection is an arbiter of anything

    narciso (d1f714)

  246. @252. Light. Tunnel. Train.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  247. 244. There’s a western area where Turkey wanted a safe zone and an eastern area. The Kurds are in the east.

    August 7 article:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/07/turkish-assault-kurdish-held-syria-averted-agreement-us-safezone

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  248. you should learn to tolerate the opinions of other people.

    Should criticism of Trump be tolerated too, or does that merit personal insults against the critic?

    Radegunda (05af0f)

  249. “The ceasefire does not change the fact that America has abandoned an ally,” Romney said. “Adding insult to dishonor, the administration speaks cavalierly, even flippantly, even as our ally has suffered death and casualty. Their homes have been burned, and their families have been torn apart. . . . This is a matter of American honor and promise. So too, is the principle that we stand by our allies, that we do not abandon our friends. The decision to abandon the Kurds violates one of our most sacred duties. It strikes at American honor.”

    What a load of nonsense. How can anyone take this clown seriously. We didn’t promise the Kurds that we would protect them from the Turks forever. How could we, the Turks are our allies too. Its childish stuff, and Mittens knows that. He’s just trying to hurt Trump. Mittens – a very dishonest man.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  250. @196 Ah, the old troll “Why are you so angry?” ploy. Its so boring, its not worth rebutting with the standard reply. I’l just note it.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  251. @195 – what an odd statement. so, divorced men and women shouldn’t be President? well, Okey dokey. Guess that’s why Reagan was such a terrible president. And why McCain should never been elected.

    rcocean (1a839e)

  252. ah Ellsberg, drinking buddy of Lucien conein, foolish enough to tangle with the moll of a Corsican caid, the former saved his six, had they not, there would be no self serving pentagon papers, who moyar points out, profoundly misreads the events leading up to the war, of course Halberstam was being misled by a north Vietnamese spy, so category error starts early,

    narciso (d1f714)

  253. Hello?

    Icy (6abb50)

  254. Man. It now seems kinda silly that we supported impeaching Clinton for lying about an affair.

    13,000 lies. Ten counts of possible obstruction. Encouraging three countries to interfere in our elections. Betraying our allies. Emoluments violations.

    But…. he’s a Republican. OK, move along. Get over it.

    noel (f22371)

  255. 206:

    The U.S. cannot be expected to carve out a chunk of Syria and keep it independent in perpetuity as a de facto Kurdish state

    Why not? We did it with Iraq from 1991 to 2003.

    Saving portions of Syria from various bad governments (Assad, ISIS) is a noble cause.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  256. conduct with a subordinate, suborning perjury, yes that’s exactly the same,

    it served to bury #metoo claims for nearly 20 years though, Weinstein was watching,

    narciso (d1f714)

  257. @256, how long should we have enforced the deal we were part of in your opinion?

    Time123 (d54166)

  258. What a load of nonsense. How can anyone take this clown seriously. We didn’t promise the Kurds that we would protect them from the Turks forever. How could we, the Turks are our allies too. Its childish stuff, and Mittens knows that. He’s just trying to hurt Trump. Mittens – a very dishonest man

    Well, the safe zone that we agreed with between the Turks and Kurds was from last month, so I’d say at least a full elapsed month would be a start.

    Plus, when you plan to leave, you don’t do it on Sunday afternoon, and the invasion beginning within a day. Such poor planning has lead to the US having to do low flyby’s in F15Es and Apaches to warn off Turks from areas, having to bomb our own arms depots because there wasn’t adequate logistics to remove the contents.

    Whether you agree with pulling out or not, the implementation of said pull out was forced to be done in the worst way possible, because Trump didn’t allow for planning. That the thing that everyone said would happen with this course of action, actually happened, he’d been warned, and chose to step on his own junk, because…? There is no because, it was an idiotic way to accomplish a goal, chosen because the “decider” is an idiot.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  259. I know the bee is only this side of satire,

    “Orange… orange like Trump!” Clinton screamed suddenly, frightening the poor food demonstration worker. “You’re in league with him, aren’t you!?” The failed presidential candidate lunged across the cart and attempted to pull off her face mask, certain the lady was actually Vladimir Putin in a skin suit.

    narciso (d1f714)

  260. in Reagans defense, he was focused on the cold war, which was kind of 1983, between able archer and kal 007, also ted Kennedy’s volunteering to Andropov,

    narciso (d1f714)

  261. @267 the b IS satire.

    Time123 (d54166)

  262. People were taking Trump’s thoughts and trying tp develop them into soemthing reasonable – without Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75)

  263. 266. Whether you agree with pulling out or not, the implementation of said pull out was forced to be done in the worst way possible, because Trump didn’t allow for planning.

    This bit if ignorance has to be cleared up.

    President Trump campaigned on getting Troops out of foreign conflicts, police actions, humanitarian exercises and misc. babysitting.

    When he took office, the first thing he did is order troops home. NOW. Welllll, that was met by all the experts in the DoD, and State, and congress, howling that you just cant do that…there is a proper way. So President Trump relented and told them to do what needed to be done, take a year.

    A year later he said, times up, bring the troops home. Nope. Still not ready, give us more time.

    So now President Trump said, I gave the experts free reign to get the job done. It is either impossible, or they refuse to advance my agenda, either excuse has expired, and we are going to start by removing 50 soldiers from Syria.

    So stop with the lie that President Trump is acting like some crazed 5th grader suffering from Oppositional defiance disorder. President Trump gave his experts lots of time to plan the withdrawal

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  264. “So now President Trump said, I gave the experts free reign to get the job done. It is either impossible, or they refuse to advance my agenda, either excuse has expired, and we are going to start by removing 50 soldiers from Syria.

    So stop with the lie that President Trump is acting like some crazed 5th grader suffering from Oppositional defiance disorder. President Trump gave his experts lots of time to plan the withdrawal”

    How do you square this with Trump sending 2800 troops to Saudi Arabia at the same time he’s withdrawing a smaller number of troops from Syria.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  265. This bit if ignorance has to be cleared up.

    President Trump campaigned on getting Troops out of foreign conflicts, police actions, humanitarian exercises and misc. babysitting.

    When he took office, the first thing he did is order troops home. NOW. Welllll, that was met by all the experts in the DoD, and State, and congress, howling that you just cant do that…there is a proper way. So President Trump relented and told them to do what needed to be done, take a year.

    A year later he said, times up, bring the troops home. Nope. Still not ready, give us more time.

    So now President Trump said, I gave the experts free reign to get the job done. It is either impossible, or they refuse to advance my agenda, either excuse has expired, and we are going to start by removing 50 soldiers from Syria.

    So stop with the lie that President Trump is acting like some crazed 5th grader suffering from Oppositional defiance disorder. President Trump gave his experts lots of time to plan the withdrawal

    iowan

    These little folk tales are fascinating. Gotta interpret the world through this absolute truth that Dear Leader isn’t at fault for the problem. In Iran they blame the CIA for their traffic jams for much the same reason.

    Dustin (6d7686)

  266. As I understand it, Pentagon and military leaders asked for manpower in addition to the additional Patriot batteries and THAAD system, all requested by the Saudis, and all to counter the child fvcking Iranians and their activities in the region.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  267. 272, I don’t have to square anything. He is the CiC. We have troops scattered all over the globe. The CiC can make that decision. Disagree with him? In just a couple weeks more than a year, you can elect a new Cic
    273. What part of the facts do you find in error? It’s all documented in the msm. Every step I laid out, happened.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  268. they don’t consider what happened last month, coronello, I didn’t see the dia source, with the ‘hardest working reporter’ referring much about that,

    narciso (d1f714)

  269. back at this time, last month, we were laser focused on warren’s massive rallies or something,

    narciso (d1f714)

  270. ‘In Iran they blame the CIA for their traffic jams…’

    And in Ft. Lee, they blamed Christie and his GOP fops.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  271. 276… of course not, narciso.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  272. @275 your facts are fine but your conclusion is in error. Trump owned this for 3 years. He picked the team, he set the strategy. He has the power to hold people accountable for their contributions to the execution. The fact that if worked out this badly is on him.

    What I keep coming back to is why did the US become a part to a safe zone, and have the Kurds pull out their defenses if we weren’t willing to support that plan in any meaningful way?

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  273. “As I understand it, Pentagon and military leaders asked for manpower in addition to the additional Patriot batteries and THAAD system, all requested by the Saudis, and all to counter the child fvcking Iranians and their activities in the region.”

    The Pentagon also asked to remain in Syria.

    Trump’s responses to Syria and Saudi Arabia are schizophrenic. It’s amazing to see the contortions Trump fans will go through to support two completely opposite positions.

    Davethulhu (fab944)

  274. #262

    206:
    The U.S. cannot be expected to carve out a chunk of Syria and keep it independent in perpetuity as a de facto Kurdish state

    Why not? We did it with Iraq from 1991 to 2003.

    Saving portions of Syria from various bad governments (Assad, ISIS) is a noble cause.

    Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 10/18/2019 @ 1:45 pm

    I guess we could, since we have the ability.

    However, the political (and voter’s) will isn’t there, so it’s not a likely pragmatic position.

    Frankly, something like that need to come from either a new AUMF/War Declaration from Congress or a multi-national effort spearheaded by the UN/NATO.

    whembly (c30c83)

  275. last month we were focused on the ‘whistleblower’ that was just biden’s Sherpa, putting the hammerlock on poroshenko’s regime, a few billion of that loan, evaporated like the snap, the abquaiq matter turned out not as severe as expected, but we don’t want to take another chance,

    narciso (d1f714)

  276. @255

    Should criticism of Trump be tolerated too, or does that merit personal insults against the critic?

    Not much merits personal insults but I also think people should be encouraged to separate criticism of a position from insults, have thicker skin, and not default to interpreting everything as an insult. It’s too easy these days to take everything personally.

    Usually, it’s not even the position that gets criticized it’s the delivery. If a comment is so over the top that Kirk Lazarus’s advice might apply then maybe some of that’s on the commenter.

    Frosty, Fp (f27e97)

  277. mattis, Tillerson and McMaster, certainly pushed the status quo, view, Bolton somewhere in the middle, Pompeo certainly based on his intel background, challenged this view,

    narciso (d1f714)

  278. Trumpo is the world’s most overrated clown.

    nk (dbc370)

  279. FP Exclusive:
    Turkish Proxies Appear to Be Using White Phosphorus in Syria
    Turkish-backed forces appear to be using munitions loaded with white phosphorus—a chemical that can maim and kill when it comes in contact with human flesh—in their violent campaign against Kurdish fighters in northern Syria, Foreign Policy has learned.

    If Turkish proxies are intentionally using white phosphorus-loaded munitions to target civilians, that could constitute a war crime. After publication of this article, U.N.-backed investigators said they were looking into the accusations.

    Photos provided to Foreign Policy by a Kurdish sources and confirmed by a senior U.S. administration official show children from Ras al-Ain with severe chemical burns on their torsos and faces consistent with wounds from white phosphorus, though the exact substance has not yet been confirmed by independent investigators. ….

    Rip Murdock (dc5dae)

  280. So stop with the lie that President Trump is acting like some crazed 5th grader suffering from Oppositional defiance disorder. President Trump gave his experts lots of time to plan the withdrawal

    I don’t think that, I coach 5th graders in youth league football, they show much more sense, they can plan ahead for a week or two.

    If everything you said was true, it’s not, but just assume he’s been “planning” this for 3 years now, do you think that makes this fiasco better, or worse. He’s either a moron for doing it spur of the moment, or he planned for 3 years to deliver so moronically, both of those choices have one thing in common, maybe you can deduce it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  281. The war crime would not be the WP itself — we the United States of America land of the free and home of the brave use it as does the rest of the world — it would be its use against civilians.

    nk (dbc370)

  282. 288. President Trump has been under attack from the FBI, DoJ, the IC, and other govt agencies. He is using the tools and powers of the office, the office he is and protecting for the people of this nation.

    iowan2 (9c8856)

  283. Thats what they accused the us of during fallujah, again these are the people we paid half a billion dollars to

    narciso (d1f714)

  284. In this edition of “your own lying eyes” we will discuss how it is possible to tell that this was not a planned, timely, orderly withdrawl because it was a chaotic mess. Which we can see with our own lying eyes. So in a world of pundits shouting “who you gonna believe?” I’m going to have to go with “my own lying eyes.”

    Nic (896fdf)

  285. The trouble with “orderly withdrawals” is that the generals, State Department, and international intel types whose salaries depend on it will almost certainly find ways to sabotage or at least slow them down. So really, the deaths of the Kurds are pretty much the fault of the constantly seditious and otherwise disobedient NeverTrump/Neocon contingent. Guess Kurdish (and American) lives are worth less than your pride and careers, but honestly that should have been easy to guess based on your attitudes toward Trump voters.

    Kurdl Marx (3cfb6a)

  286. 1. Orderly withdrawal from …?
    2. Orderly withdrawal to …?
    3. Did the Kurds who defeated ISIS for us agree to this “orderly withdrawal?

    Or did Erdogan say, “I am going to drive the Kurds who defeated ISIS for you out the safe zone/no fly zone and out of their homes and I want them far away and disarmed or dead” and Roy Cohn’s slicked-up boy toy said “Anything you want, just please don’t hurt me”?

    nk (dbc370)

  287. Thousands and hundreds of thousands of words from Trump butt-gerbils to hide a very plain fact: A filthy yellow double-crosser named Donald John Trump is a filthy yellow double-crosser.

    The Russians were respecting our safe zone/no-fly zone. The f***ing Russians! A world power. A nuclear world power. And the filthy yellow double-crosser buckled down to Turkey. To f***ing Turkey!

    nk (dbc370)

  288. Ah, Scheisse! Kurld Marx is Mr. VPN. Sorry for wasting your bandwidth responding to him, Patterico.

    nk (dbc370)

  289. Not sure, nk. I could go get a day-old education on it from Very Trustworthy CIA People On the Television, or I could say ‘this was rather inevitable based on the conduct of the surrounding powers who were dumb enough to let Turkey into the EU in the first place’.

    I could also believe every single tale of atrocity from Kurdistan and Eastern Kentucky without any independent fact checkers on the ground just because the TV people told me.

    Here’s a blog comment which is just as valuable as anything Romney ever came up with:

    Since the ceasefire doesn’t apply to the SAA and Russians, they have five days to move enough forces along the Turkish-Syrian border so that at the end of the ceasefire, Erdogan packs up and goes home, leaving the takfiris, who’ve almost certainly will have broken the ceasefire, to fertilize Syrian soil, the only thing they deserve.

    How long does it take to move a SAA “convoy” 220 miles (der Ezzor to opposite Cizre) without any opposition? My guess is about five hours, say ten allowing for tea breaks, and a Toyota pickup could do it on a single tank of diesel with plenty (400 miles) to spare

    This “operation” has been on the books for some time. The SAA stopping after capturing Khan Sheikhoun when they had considerable momentum. Russian SF throwing a new bridges across the Euphrates when the Russians tend not to do something for no reason.

    As for Trump, he tried to get out of Syria once before and got nowhere, then he tried to unload American involvement in Syria onto other parties but neither the Europeans nor the Gulfies were prepared to do anything. That left the Turkish, Russians and Syrians but Putin had already made it clear that Syria would be left whole so that ruled out the Turkish except in a bit part, so Trump gave the job to the Russians and Syrians who also decided to help Erdogan with his three biggest problems, the takfiris, the PKK and a few million refugees. The takfiris will be fed to the SAA Meat Grinder, the PKK will be physically separated from the YPG and with the conflict over and the takfiris gone, they’ll be no reason for the refugees to not return.

    With the refugees in Turkey returning to Syria, the Europeans will be relieved that they’re not coming to Europe and might even cough up some money for reconstruction.

    Meanwhile, Trump, the master of disinformation and bull****, is distracting the Republicans and corporate Democrats and succeeding. By the time that idiot Pelosi has worked out what’s happening, it’ll be too late.

    For those worried about a resurgent ISIS, remember that Washington tolerated ISIS to displace the Syrian government and scare Baghdad and it’s only when Russia arrived in Syria and started hunting ISIS that Obama felt any real need to take action against ISIS. Syria and Russia will liquidate any attempt at resurgence by ISIS.

    Is it true and accurate? Who knows? Is it original and enlightening? Definitely!

    Kurdl Marx (b138f1)

  290. Rather bluntly put, we learned no lesson from afganistan (the first time) or libya the immediate precursor, only the players change but not the progran.

    narciso (d1f714)

  291. The entire middle east from uighurlandia to turkey and Morrocco is a stinking pit one degree removed fron hell

    steveg (354706)

  292. “Here’s a blog comment which is just as valuable as anything Romney ever came up with:”

    Ah, the ol’ “Trump is actually a genius puppetmaster” defense. I haven’t seen one of these in a while.

    Davethulhu (fe4242)

  293. President Trump has been under attack from the FBI, DoJ, the IC, and other govt agencies. He is using the tools and powers of the office, the office he is and protecting for the people of this nation.

    At what point does this become Trump’s administration? Either he’s a genius management guru, leadership savant, ardent deal maker, or after 3 years he’s proven that he’s none of those things and is just a moron who conned you. Get over it, you were had.

    Is it true and accurate? Who knows? Is it original and enlightening? Definitely!

    No, it’s not. So how, exactly, is an original lie enlightening? It might be entertaining, but it’s still horse excrement.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (6e7a1c)

  294. He is using the tools and powers of the office, the office he is and protecting for the people of this nation.

    The only people he is protecting is himself, his kleptomaniac family, and the Trump Organization (but I repeat myself).

    Rip Murdock (d6b59b)

  295. I could say ‘this was rather inevitable based on the conduct of the surrounding powers who were dumb enough to let Turkey into the EU in the first place’.

    Turkey isn’t in the EU.

    Turkey is in NATO, and in many ways it has been one of the organization’s more effective – but also problematic – members.

    JP (7a537c)

  296. Mr. Marx,

    Another view from the same comment thread:

    Pence wasn’t snookered. He was playing from a weak hand, with little leverage over Erdogan, and facing enormous domestic pressure to come back with some kind of a deal, anything that could be used to deflect criticism that the Trump Administration left the Kurds out to dry.

    That’s where Trump’s hyperbole about a victory of humanity or whatever come from.

    As it is, the Turks got almost everything they wanted, and didn’t even bother to keep their end of the bargain.

    ***
    IMHO, the Trump Administration had to reach some kind of agreement with the Turks, just to try to take the heat off the Administration.

    Seems that, in their rush to make some kind of a deal, any deal, the Administration gave the Turks everything they wanted, and the Turks haven’t even kept their end of the bargain.

    Plus this in response to another point by another commenter:

    Turkey’s territorial ambitions are primarily imperial originating from the breakup of the Ottoman empire following WW1.

    As far as Putin is concerned: He sees the nation state as the foundation block upon which the international system rests. Russia joined the fight not simply to save Assad to to prevent another Iraq or Libya. As Putin said in his 2007 speech at Munich, the way the US is thrashing around toppling sovereign regimes carelessly, “No one feels safe.” His defense of the nation state is actually a defense of Russia itself.

    As for the US: Washington wants to checkmate Putin in Syria to control pipeline corridors from N Iraq thru syria to Turkey and onto the EU. The US also wants a greatly-weakened balkenized syria that cannot resist US-Israeli machinations.

    In short, I don’t think the main drivers of the conflict are “religious or tribal” at all, but geopolitical, and on that count, the US is losing quite spectacularly.

    All quotes by “plantman” who IMO is exactly right.

    DRJ (15874d)

  297. it’s good for nothing, through it’s communities in germany, it’s islamicizing the the population using the gulen network, that has considerable support in this country, but it was a good false front to attack general Flynn with, and the acquittal of his associate proves, but it’s very hard to decertify a member state,

    narciso (d1f714)

  298. @302 I understand the appeal to this argument but it’s more talking point than anything. Large organizations don’t change easily. I’ve seen it take well over a year to make even moderate changes to small teams. A large business unit at an established company can take years to change if it’s possible at all. This is one of the reasons you see businesses start wholly owned subsidiaries and joint ventures. Or decide that a team can’t change fast enough, outsource the work, and dissolve the group. This is taken to the extreme at some place like the DOJ or State Dept. And you don’t have the options you have in the corporate world to effect change. You don’t need to believe in deep state conspiracies. Organizational psychology and inertia describe the situation well enough.

    Frosty, Fp (97b86f)

  299. the status quo, ante is being returned in Syria, it’s that army that is pushing back Erdogan’s proxies who are the free Syrian army and other factions we financed and either ran or defected to al queda,

    narciso (d1f714)

  300. Let’s see now:

    We have two allies that are fighting one another- Turkey and Marxist affiliated Kurds.

    One of those allies has a US airbase with nukes-

    The other ally has been known to sponsor guerilla attacks inside the ally which has a US airbase.

    Keeping 50 US forward observers will make the fight is “fair” indefinitely.

    Or, how about letting the best side win and the US goes home?

    Change my mind!

    William elbel (fd0724)

  301. Tulsi Gabbard being incoherent, *Saudi Arabia’s war in Yemen kills Syrian civilians?) as well as knocking down a straw man since the New York Times did not call her a Russian asset or an Assad apologist nor smear her in any way. It merely reported that she seemed to be backed by Russia and some other sources the way they backed Donald Trump in 2016. And now she’s somehow a typical veteran.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/15/october-democratic-de
    bate-transcript/

    GABBARD: Well, first of all, we’ve got to understand the reality of the situation there, which is that the slaughter of the Kurds being done by Turkey is yet another negative consequence of the regime change war that we’ve been waging in Syria.

    Donald Trump has the blood of the Kurds on his hand, but so do many of the politicians in our country from both parties who have supported this ongoing regime change war in Syria that started in 2011, along with many in the mainstream media, who have been championing and cheerleading this
    regime change war.

    Not only that, but the New York Times and CNN have also smeared veterans like myself for calling for an end to this regime change war. Just two days ago, the New York Times put out an article saying that I’m a Russian asset and an Assad apologist and all these different smears.

    This morning, a CNN commentator said on national television that I’m an asset of Russia. Completely despicable.

    As president, I will end these regime change wars by doing two things — ending the draconian sanctions that are really a modern-day siege the likes of which we are seeing Saudi Arabia wage against Yemen, that have caused tens of thousands of Syrian civilians to die and to starve, and I
    would make sure that we stop supporting terrorists like Al Qaida in Syria who have been the ground force in this ongoing regime change war. The US did attempt to back some terrorist defectors some of whom are now backed by Turkey and they are perhaps more thieves than Islamist terrorists now.

    Sammy Finkelman (0d0ca8)


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