Patterico's Pontifications

12/26/2017

Yes, Washington Post, Jesus Did Exist

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 10:00 am



On Christmas morning, a Twitter account associated with the Washington Post called “Post Opinons” tweeted out one of their old op-ed pieces denying that Jesus existed. The tweet read: “Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up.”

As clickbait trolling, the tweet was inspired. As historical scholarship, the piece it promotes is trash. This should be obvious to most people, but I thought I’d toss a couple of links your way in case people are once again spreading this nonsense on social media.

The piece first appeared on the Post’s op-ed page in 2014, and was written by a fellow named Raphael Lataster. Very soon thereafter, a thorough and amusing rebuttal appeared online, written by Lataster’s former professor, who said he would have given the piece a failing grade. Here is a taste of the good professor’s rebuttal:

This time, however, I was particularly interested, not because Raphael Lataster’s piece in The Conversation had anything new to say but because it was written by a young man who just three years ago sat in my Sydney University class on “Historical Jesus to Written Gospels.” . . . As his east inflatables reviews former lecturer, I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that Raphael’s 1000 words on Jesus would not receive a pass mark in any history class I can imagine, even if it were meant to be a mere “personal reflection” on contemporary Jesus scholarship.

. . . .

Finally, Raphael Lataster reveals that his real interest is in sceptical apologetics rather than ancient history when he opines, “There are no existing eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus. All we have are later descriptions of Jesus’ life events by non-eyewitnesses.” Leaving aside the question of whether there are eyewitness accounts in the New Testament – many think there are – such a statement overlooks the fact that virtually everything we know from ancient history comes to us from sources that are neither “contemporary” with events, nor written by eyewitnesses. What we know of Emperor Tiberius, for instance, comes mainly from the Roman chronicler Tacitus, who writes some 80 years after the emperor’s death. This is typical of ancient history, and it poses no dilemma to the contemporary scholar because it is clear that authors such as Tacitus, like the Gospel writers, employed earlier sources within their works.

. . . .

. . . Raphael Lataster’s arguments amount to an unfortunate disregard toward mainstream scholarship and highlight a worrying trend in new atheist literature generally: the tendency to pontificate on topics well outside one’s area of expertise.

The second link is from RedState, from Erick Erickson, who wrote in 2014:

The common thread of all these columns, articles, and expositions are unbelievers writing to reassure other unbelievers at a time of year billions of people are celebrating either the miraculous burning of oil for eight days or a virgin giving birth to a child. The secular left can abide no miracles.

It is not particularly surprising that the Washington Post once printed this garbage. It is a little surprising, given how laughably slipshod the piece is, that they continue to promote it three years later.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

140 Responses to “Yes, Washington Post, Jesus Did Exist”

  1. Once again I’m reminded of the terrible loss that was the destruction of the Great Library of Alexandria. Most of those contemporary sources, such as existed, would have been found there.

    Kevin M (752a26)

  2. One need not credit miracles to believe in the historical existence of Jesus. One need not invoke them to discredit Lataster. Erickson’s argument assumes more of a burden of proof than necessary. Even dedicated atheists who have any historical objectivity can concede the existence of the man, regardless of their views about his divinity or his ability to work miracles.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  3. Dickson shows he has been busy slaying category error for awhile arslan who has now branched out into trying to understand God while providing apologetic for allah Herman whatever he does.

    narciso (d1f714)

  4. New move to remove Jesus statues.

    AZ Bob (f60c80)

  5. Further to Beldar’s comment. Bart Ehrman claims to be an agnostic. Frankly he appears to be an atheist as he never even grants that God might exist. He’s probably the foremost skeptical scholar extant. Atheists and Muslims love to cite his works. And not even he doubts that Jesus existed.

    https://ehrmanblog.org/why-was-jesus-killed-for-members/

    Note the title contained in the link; “Why was Jesus killed?”

    …It would take an entire book to answer your question adequately, but I do want to say a couple of things about it. The crucifixion of Jesus by the Romans is one of the most secure facts we have about his life…

    Nobody who has ever studied the subject doubts that Jesus lived and was crucified. Christian, agnostic, atheist, no scholar doubts those two facts. When I saw that tweet from the Washington Post I knew the article was going to be complete trash. So why would I bother to read it?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  6. Yes its doubtful you van rely on bezis for anything:

    http://bib.irr.org/tacitus-suetonius-and-historical-jesus

    narciso (d1f714)

  7. I dont understand the effort put in to dispute whether Jesus existed in history as a means to claim there is no god. It only serves to confuse the issue.

    Consider Sathya Sai Baba of whom there are millions of followers today. Some will give eyewitness accounts of miracles he performed and most will repeat these accounts with genuine belief. In two thousand years who knows how many followers there could be. The proof of his historical existence may not be disputable but will that have any bearing on whether or not he really could perform miracles?

    Gil (0bf8a1)

  8. The early Christians pretty soon confused two different people. (Jesus was a common Greek version of a Jewish name) The first one was very famous and lived during the tiem of King Alexander Jannaeus or Jannai or Yannai (rules 103 BCE to 76 BCE) and is probably referred to in some of teh dead Sea Scrolls. he was originally the top disciple of Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Perachiah (with Nittai of Arbela, second of five pairs of scholars mentioned in Pirkei Avos) but, as is related in the (but censored) at Sanhedrin 107b, Sotah 47a whjen tghey were returninbg home from exile in Egypt afetr Shimon ben Shetach sdnt word to them that it was safe to come back they arrived at an inn, and at a particular inn and Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Perachiah said: How beautiful is this inn [Achsania, which also means innkeeper] referring actyually to the respect which he was beibng treated. The first Jesus said Rabbi, she has narrow eyes and Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] said to him: Wicked one, this is how you engage yourself? and he excommunicated him. he tried to get back in his favor, but he woudl nmot accdept him, although one fina time he was going to accept him but Jesus mistook the sign and he llked many many people astray t says without saying exactly waht but it sounds like maybe somebody in teh Dead Sea scrolls

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  9. That was a century apart, aammeh, terzian noted on veterans day they celebrate peace activistivists on mothers day incest on July 4th they bring up sally hemming thus is toxic contrarianism

    narciso (d1f714)

  10. Sammeh, the early “Christians” were all Jews. In fact, the early debate among the followers of Yeshua was can you be a Gentile and a follower of Yeshua, or do they have to convert to Judaism first? They didn’t think they were starting a new religion. They were convinced that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ in Greek) and the Jews that didn’t acknowledge that fact were simply bad Jews.

    And Jesus isn’t a “a common Greek version of a Jewish name.” The Greek version of Yeshua is Iesous. From that we get the Latin Iesus, and from there we get the English version Jesus.

    I thoroughly enjoyed reading your comment about how early Christians were confused about names when you started off by demonstrating you are confused about the difference between Greek and English. Although I have to tell you that was the high point of your comment. It went downhill from there.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  11. Actually Christos in Greek; Christ is the English derivative.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  12. lolo, as to why they would deny, why did Stalin erase the likes of bukharin from
    official portraits, Orwell does a similar thing with Jones aaronson and Rutherford,
    Co founders of ingsoc that were liquidated. Presumably.

    narciso (d1f714)

  13. They publish this opinion piece in various forms every Christmas. And around Easter we will again see the TV programs and articles about how the resurrection could never have happened, yada yada.

    Just like they publish opinion pieces every Eid season about how Mohammed never truly existed. (Ever notice how Eid is really close to IED?)

    Just read the Dalrimple piece: this is another example of the intelligentsia and their self-hatred.

    Patricia (5fc097)

  14. The question is where was Jesus between age 12 and 33? It seems logical significant events occurred. Perhaps that expunged apocryphal history did not fit the narrative.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  15. The reason he did not present himself as High Priest earlier is the Law required age 33. He did not present himself as King Priest after Melchezedek at that time as politics should be eschewed until the appointed time.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  16. So where in Hades was he?

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  17. Christos (Christ) is Anointed, not Messiah, in Greek. Messiah in Greek is Messias.

    nk (dbc370)

  18. Neil deGrasse Tyson
    @neiltyson
    Merry Christmas to the world’s 2.5 billion Christians. And to the remaining 5 billion people, including Muslims Atheists Hindus Buddhists Animists & Jews, Happy Monday.

    _____
    Ben Shapiro
    @benshapiro
    Looking forward to your similarly multicultural Ramadan tweet.

    harkin (8789d3)

  19. Leftism is the evil in this world most in need of being purged.

    And it has a willing friend with Atheists unfortunately.

    Hello Kitty (c587a1)

  20. I will rejoice when the second fulfillment of whipping out the fakirs of the Temple.

    Greedheads will suck hind teat.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  21. Will
    @Oil_Guns_Merica

    Libs: “Jesus didn’t even exist you dumb hick idiots”

    Also Libs: “Jesus was a socialist refugee and should determine our immigration laws”

    harkin (8789d3)

  22. This stuff is really the [persons of questionable masculinity and unsanitary sexual practices or “what Alec Baldwin said”] at WaPo trying to get under the skins of Christians, arouse anger and resentment, and ruin their Christmas cheer. It’s something gadflies do.

    nk (dbc370)

  23. Yes. Pure evil nk.

    How poutrage are you?

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  24. Gadflies? Aren’t they queer gnats?

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  25. This, salient question will be debated for decades amongst thinking people.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  26. Jesus was a socialist.

    Prove otherwise harkin..

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  27. The Roman historian Josephus writing later in the 1st century, who was pretty accurate about a great many things for that time, indicated that Jesus was in fact a real person who lived in 1st century Galilee and was crucified by the Romans. If you want to debate the Resurrection, that’s the core of the story anyway. Also Jewish sources, probably form the very pharisees in the Sanhedrin who had Him killed, also indicate that Christ existed, but that He was the bastard son of a Roman solider.

    And surprisingly one person who does believe Christ is Lord that is Alec Baldwin, who is often the lector at his Catholic parish way out in the Hamptons.

    Merry Christmas.

    Bugg (08921e)

  28. Tacitus Josephus and suetonius next question, no he wasn’t a socialist.

    narciso (29665c)

  29. Kinda off topic but Trump is always ot .

    The FBI was tracking Donovan as part of a months-long counterintelligence operation code-named “NorthernNight.” Internal bureau reports described her as a pseudonymous foot soldier in an army of Kremlin-led trolls seeking to undermine America’s democratic institutions.

    [snip]

    The events surrounding the FBI’s NorthernNight investigation follow a pattern that repeated for years as the Russian threat was building: U.S. intelligence and law enforcement agencies saw some warning signs of Russian meddling in Europe and later in the United States but never fully grasped the breadth of the Kremlin’s ambitions.

    https://www.emptywheel.net/2017/12/26/why-call-alice-donovan-a-troll/

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  30. Noticed a proliferation of electric vault explosions in the US?

    CYBER PROBING OF WEAKNESS..hello? Is anybody home?

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  31. Harkin: anyone, really with some grit and fortitude..

    Was Jesus a trickle-down Supply-sider?
    Notes please.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  32. Gadflies? Aren’t they queer gnats?

    We elites say “gnats of questionable masculinity and unsanitary sexual practices”, Hoagie.

    nk (dbc370)

  33. There are no photographs of Yeshua ben Josef, so of course some on the left doubt his existence.

    Every time I look at you I don’t understand
    Why you let the things you did get so out of hand.
    You’d have managed better if you’d had it planned.
    Why’d you choose such a backward time in such a strange land?
    If you’d come today you could have reached a whole nation.
    Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication.

    The Catholic Dana (3c6d4e)

  34. As a Catholic of some education I have s question for you as to Peter’s role.

    When Jesus said ‘ upon this rock he will establish his Church, (Greek ‘rock’ as Petra actual geological ROCK!) why do Catholics take Jesus to mean Peter (Greek Petros) ?

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  35. My Christmas present to Bun Burn — I read one of his comments.

    Peter’s given name was Simon. Christ renamed him Peter=Petros=rock, when He said Simon Peter would be the Rock on which He would build His Church.

    nk (dbc370)

  36. “We’re more popular than Jesus”[a] was a remark made by the Beatles’ John Lennon during a 1966 interview, in which he argued that Christianity would end before rock music.

    Now echoed as a Holiday tradition by every Democrat newspaper in the country.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  37. Here’s a thought. Why don’t we round up every copy of the Washington Post we can get our hands on [without resorting to coin] and have a bonfire in the street?

    papertiger (c8116c)

  38. Your gift means little beyond rhetorical nonsense from ideologues.

    Peter denied Jesus Thrice…Paul was the go- to-Apostle not Peter

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  39. #36 -Strikes me as odd that Catholic tradition always said Jesus had no siblings yet the text uses the word for brothers often.

    Bugg (08921e)

  40. It is interesting – I personally have no problem with skeptics and atheists regarding religion. I do have a problem with obnoxious and insensitive assholes. It is unfortunate that the two types of human behavior have so much overlap.

    Geoman (a815b9)

  41. Cherry-picking aside nk…
    ..is Jesus a socialist as Jesuits suggest.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  42. It seems like enforced ignorance, as prof Dickson has noted.

    narciso (d1f714)

  43. I prefered Ringo. He never seemed as full of himself as those other guys.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  44. “We are the foundation, we are…the universe, we are…God. That’s good enough for me.” -Ray Bradbury

    DCSCA (797bc0)


  45. “We are the foundation, we are…the universe, we are…God. That’s good enough for me.” -Ray Bradbury

    It’s really more powerful in the original German.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  46. Besides, if Bruce Jenner can declare himself a woman Ray Bradbury can surely declare himself God. Jenner does not have a corner on the idiot nut job market.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  47. I will add one more observation – atheists tend to know very little useful about religion in general. They think it is all tomfoolery, and silly, and hence never bother to learn anything about it, or spend any time understanding it. Problem is, they go on to make, frankly, idiotic pronouncements about a religion that they know nothing of.

    To Raphael Lataster and his ilk – why do you assume, sans any knowledge, that the issue of Christ’s true existence has not been investigated and debated for literally centuries before you bumbled into the discussion? These people pretend to have some sort of insight, or think, I dunno, they will say something that will just Blow. Your. Mind! They have no idea how arrogant and foolish they sound – like a small child interrupting a discussion of economics by the adults at the dinner table.

    If you want to participate with the adults, then spend several years studying the subject in detail, learning all the ins and outs of the historic record. Otherwise you have nothing to contribute to the conversation.

    Besides, remember – you don’t care, right? I mean, you think it is all fake anyway, and you plan on ignoring it.

    Geoman (a815b9)

  48. 49.I will add one more observation – atheists tend to know very little useful about religion in general.

    The most useful information in generalabout any religion ever is it was invented by Man.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. Well considering the religion editor of the post, was a spell casting witch, one can’t be surprised

    narciso (d1f714)

  50. Lol, Hoagie..original German!

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  51. Bugg (08921e) — 12/26/2017 @ 4:20 pm

    Merry Christmas! If you had grown up in a Spanish-speaking household, this use of “brethren” or “brothers” would not sound at all odd. Indeed, many are the times when the term “brothers” are used here by commenters of good will who would express an affection for those who have shared a common (or more often, uncommon) burden.

    I remember witnessing a large number of strangers entering our house one Christmas which caused me to ask my mother “who are they?” To which she answered simply;”your brothers.” Poverty is best explained by the poor.

    felipe (023cc9)

  52. Bugg (08921e) — 12/26/2017 @ 4:20 pm

    Many oddities in the sacred Scriptures have their origin in a less-than-perfect translation. For example, “lead us not into temptation” and “our daily bread” from the Lord’s prayer.

    felipe (023cc9)

  53. The pontiff seems to havevthose sortscof issues, unfortunately

    narciso (d1f714)

  54. Yes, and he is getting a lot of grief for his efforts.

    felipe (023cc9)

  55. It’s a fact Jack..Jesus was a socialist through conservative religionists default.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  56. There is certainly a social justice comnent, but it is voluntary rather than coercive.

    narciso (d1f714)

  57. By the standards of Atheistical evangelicals, one cannot prove that a Creator exists without Him appearing on some vetted leftwing talk show.

    C. S. P. Schofield (99bd37)

  58. Neil Degrassi Tyson tweet is as awkward as his performance in teenage mutant ninja turtle but not as much as Alex cross, since jesus is regarded as a prophet issa. In Islam.

    narciso (d1f714)

  59. 49… Their religion is “having no religion”.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  60. Many oddities in the sacred Scriptures have their origin in a less-than-perfect translation.

    ‘Abba dabba dabba dabba dabba dabba dabba said the monkey to the chimp…

    Sacred Scrolls: “‘Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil’s pawn. Alone among God’s primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother’s land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death.'” – Cornelius [Roddy McDowall] ‘Planet Of The Apes’ 1968

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. Chopra pwnd… https://youtu.be/ka–VV-_t_U

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  62. wtf gets their Jesus news from the fake news wapo propaganda sluts anyways

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  63. By the standards of Atheistical evangelicals,

    Did you trip on your lip?

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  64. Mires like evangelical atheists

    narciso (d1f714)

  65. Jesus was not a socialist.

    Jesus never proposed extorting to people to do anything under threat of Gubmint.

    To say otherwise is an idiot, including the Jesuits.

    Morality and goodness where not confused with Gubmint forcing it as such.

    Hello Kitty (c587a1)

  66. You actually use gubmint as customary and accepted good English?

    We’re more fooked than I imagined.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  67. And Jesus isn’t a “a common Greek version of a Jewish name.” The Greek version of Yeshua is Iesous. From that we get the Latin Iesus, and from there we get the English version Jesus.

    If Jesus’s real name was Joshua, then Christians have a serious problem with Isaiah chapter 44, which contains a verse that can be read to refer to him.

    The standard translation says “They pray to a god who does not save”, referring to nonJews. The actual word meaning “who saves” is also the name Joshua, and the word order in Hebrew allows for the translation “they pray to the not-god Joshua”. So Isaiah is predicting the worship of a false god named Joshua…

    The basic reason to say Jesus was a real person is that any other explanation is too complicated, even bizarre:. Occam had a razor. He was apparently crucified by the Romans in concert with the Herodian/Sadduccean regime then locally in power.

    Beyond that everything is guesswork. The Gospels are oral hagiography written several decades after the events they claim to report, and certainly have some things mixed up. The event now celebrated by Palm Sunday almost certainly happened during the autumn festival of Sukkot (Tabernacles), during which processions of people waving palms while chanting “Hoshanah” (Save us, Lord) was (and still is) an important part of the worship service. Nothing like it happens on Passover. So the”Entry into Jerusalem” happened at all, either it occurred during a previous visit to Jerusalem by Jesus or else Jesus actually spent the last six months or so of his life in Jerusalem.

    Kishnevi (5a999e)

  68. If you want an interesting parallel to show why the Gospels can’t be trusted as oral history, consider the life of Count Poticki, aka Avraham ben Avraham, the Ger Tzedek (Righteous Convert) of Vilna. Until the Holocaust and then Soviet building schemes intervened, you could be shown the almost precise spot where some of his ashes were buried, taken from what remained after he was burned at the stake in the late 18th century for the “crime” of abandoning Catholicism for Judaism. A few decades after his death, detailed biographies began appearing, relating how this Polish nobleman found the truth of Judaism, converted, lived as a student of the Gaon of Vilna and then as a poor obscure rabbinical scholar until betrayed to the Church authorities, who condemned him to the stake when he refused to return to Catholicism. The biographies conclude with a relatively detailed depiction of his martyrdom in the main square of Vilna. These accounts appeared at about the same interval from his death as the Gospels began appearing after the crucifixion of Jesus.

    The kicker to all of this is that there is no reason to believe he ever existed. Scholarship has turned up no trace of him, even though one would expect some record of a nobleman being burned at the stake in the late 18th century. It’s all a legend that sprang up in the span of a lifetime.

    A similar situation, involving outsized legends, involves the Baal Shem Tov, except there exist some archival records and letters which show he was a rabbinical scholar/faith healer who lived in the first half of the 18th century, but may have been very unlike the populist mystic enshrined in tradition by about 1800.

    Kishnevi (5a999e)

  69. Kishnevi’s next scholarly endeavor will be to tell us that we can’t trust in the idea of Shakespeare’s works being written by Shakespeare by pointing out that there actually never was a person named Mark Twain.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  70. Media Matters tweet:

    “The NRA has remade itself into a pro-Trump propaganda outlet.” [with picture of Trump’s face sporting the logo of FDR’s National Recovery Administration]

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SamValley/status/945682000043585542

    Best response: “Those who forget history are doomed to re-tweet it”

    harkin (8789d3)

  71. Well, there wasn’t. His name was Samuel Langhorne Clemens.

    Kishnevi (5a999e)

  72. 72
    Chortle

    Kishnevi (5a999e)

  73. And as tom Holland reminds us, how long between the events of Moses and the book of exodus wee written approximTely

    narciso (d1f714)

  74. A better reason for doubting the Stratford dood wrote the works of Shakespeare…..

    https://youtu.be/7ZNYifQfYiE

    harkin (8789d3)

  75. Ah, Kishnevi. Went right over your head, didn’t I.

    By the way, I have just read Isaiah 44 in two different translations. The passage you cite is not there. I also googled exactly your words in a quote, in order to find your translation. There were no results leading to a passage from any translation of the Bible.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  76. Jesus ate a lot of fish, which does not have any carbs

    this is why he was so thin and elegant all the time

    we should all try to be more like Jesus

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  77. Okay. Found it. Isaiah 45. So I’ll own that, and apologize.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  78. Well, actually, now that I’m reading it, in context Isaiah 45:20 is clearly a comment about people who worship idols:

    “…they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.” (KJV)
    “Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood, who pray to gods that cannot save.” (NIV)

    So while I admit to being hasty and uncharitable in judging your citation, you’re still cherry-picking what you cite.

    Demosthenes (09f714)

  79. Many oddities in the sacred Scriptures have their origin in a less-than-perfect translation. For example, “lead us not into temptation” and “our daily bread” from the Lord’s prayer.

    Those are perfect translations from Koine to English. Perfect. Until a Pope comes along who thinks he can re-write Christ’s Word.

    nk (dbc370)

  80. I think that is the mist relevant interpretation, and it goes back to Moses and the golden calf his people were worshiping. We are told in like. That it had been 400 hundred years since the last prophet malachi in that time Israel had been conquered several times.

    narciso (d1f714)

  81. Luke, hence zaccharias the father of John the baptists shock. Moses the deliverer of his people had grown up in a royal household the other prophets in varying degrees had not made such an impression.

    narciso (d1f714)

  82. I intended this as a disparagment highlighting the fall of the Washington Post’s prestige,

    The Washington Post (March)” – performed on a ukulele, [YouTube]

    but the dude (John King) plays it so well. It turned out awesome.

    papertiger (c8116c)

  83. I think they mean when the documents were uncovered but still

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/sources-for-caesar-and-jesus-compared/

    narciso (d1f714)

  84. Now there are some sites that confuse Luke and plutarch, (they suggest since the latter didnt write about jesus, other Josephus and Paul.

    narciso (d1f714)

  85. Demosthenes, the Hebrew can be read to have both meanings. You didn’t go over my head. I just don’t feel like being argumentative. But even the most fanatical believer can understand that the Gospels are not biographies in the way that Chernow wrote a biography of Grant: they are a compilation of what the 1st century Church thought was necessary to know about Jesus’s life and teachings, and the only guarantee that they are accurate is Church tradition. Which means there is no reason for non Christians to believe in their accuracy.

    nk@82
    It may be a perfect translation of the Koine, but how good a translation is it from the Aramaic or Hebrew in which it was originally said? We’ll never know, unless someone finds the (alleged) Hebrew original version of the Gospel of Matthew (if it’s in there).

    There’s a parallel prayer we Jews say everyday as part of the morning prayers, originally said by Yehudah haNasi, roughly 200CE.
    Do not bring us into the power of error, nor into the power of transgression and sin, nor into the power of challenge, nor into the power of scorn. Let not the Evil Inclination dominate us
    Is the pertinent part of a long paragraph. The word translated as challenge in the above can mean temptation or test.

    Kishnevi (5a999e)

  86. Arguemts Re made why cassius dio didnt mention Christians, unlike the jewish civil war it want really a policy matter.

    narciso (d1f714)

  87. cassius away

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  88. The Pope’s problem is not with “temptation”. It is with “lead us”.

    nk (dbc370)

  89. True, but one begins to wonder, how much did he read of scripture, I don’t think you could have said that of any pope in at least a century of two.

    narciso (d1f714)

  90. He can’t understand how God could possibly be thought to lead people into temptation and, as Pope, he has the authority to make his lack of understanding Scripture. Which might explain why half of all Christians don’t accept the Pope’s authority.

    nk (dbc370)

  91. 93
    Yes, but that was the situation well before Frank. Starting in 1054 at least.

    Kishnevi (5a999e)

  92. Reading Manchester who seems to rely on Durant accounts that’s probably true.

    narciso (29665c)

  93. I know. The concept of the Pope’s primacy, one person being the supreme arbiter of the faith, is the biggest bone of contention between the Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

    nk (dbc370)

  94. Christos (Christ) is Anointed, not Messiah, in Greek. Messiah in Greek is Messias.
    nk (dbc370) — 12/26/2017 @ 1:45 pm

    nk, Ha-Mashiach, the Messiah in English, means “the anointed.” Hence, Christos or Christ.

    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Yeshua/yeshua.html

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  95. Thank you, Steve57, I didn’t know that. I thought Messiah in Hebrew meant Deliverer as in Savior.

    nk (dbc370)

  96. Jesus Christ is Lord.

    NJRob (346189)

  97. Leave it to the Washington Post to deliver an shiny example of a total repudiation of multiculturalism, diversity and inclusiveness.

    Neo (d1c681)

  98. Rear Admiral Burner asked me:

    As a Catholic of some education I have s question for you as to Peter’s role.

    When Jesus said ‘ upon this rock he will establish his Church, (Greek ‘rock’ as Petra actual geological ROCK!) why do Catholics take Jesus to mean Peter (Greek Petros) ?

    Matthew, Chapter 16:

    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Some Protestants make arguments along the lines that Jesus was not referring to Simon Peter as an individual, because they dispute the Primacy of Rome, but I find their arguments to be weak ones, arguments driven by the desired conclusion than by examination of scripture without a pre-ordained — pun most definitely intended — conclusion.

    The very Catholic Dana (3c6d4e)

  99. If the arguments seem weak to a layman that’s exactly why you’re told about mysteries that you can’t comprehend. Otherwise the Church would not persecute laymen who studied Latin.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  100. Maybe some Protestants do that. But “we”, most non-Roman Catholic Christians, dispute the Primacy of Rome because we’re not Lamaist Buddhists. We don’t dispute that St. Peter is the rock on which Christ built His Church; we dispute that some guy elected by a bunch of other guys to be Pope is St. Peter’s avatar.

    nk (dbc370)

  101. Cafeteria Catholics

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  102. Cherry picker nk. It’s a habit

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  103. This ought to calm down the knee jerk left:

    Jerusalem to name new Western Wall train station after Donald Trump.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5214765/Israel-minister-plans-Trump-train-station-Western-Wall.html
    ____

    Paraphrasing on tweet I saw last week:

    Giving nuke technology and billions to Iranian mullahs: leadership.

    Recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel: Madman doing his best to stoke Armageddon.

    harkin (8256c3)

  104. Who gives a crap if Israelis still worship the Golden Calf?

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (4b3a7c)

  105. no that’s your gig, ben of pitzer.

    narciso (d1f714)

  106. Back when I was a altar boy we would have a few laughs taping the clanger on the sanctus bells. The look on Father Donahue’s face as Bill shook that bell was sinful. My partners in crime some 50 years ago still lol over that one.

    mg (8cbc69)

  107. MG-tripped over the bells during a funeral, causing me and my 2 altar boy friends to have an uncontrollable laughing jag. Caught a bit of hell from the priest for that. Remarkably the pall bearer still tipped us. One of those co-altar boys grew up to be an FDNY FF,and was killed in 9/11.

    Bugg (08921e)

  108. 107. Golen calves were erected, after solomon, by the breakaway king of Israel to give people some place else to go other than Jerusalem. Yerovam ben Nevat wanted something separate from Judea, but still a Jewish tradition, in a way. he wasn’t adopting Ba’al like later kings.

    Now the question is: What are you talking about??

    Sammy Finkelman (c95a5a)

  109. Bugg-laughing during mass was never good.

    mg (8cbc69)

  110. What are you talking about

    Trump, Israel’s new golden child.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (fed2dc)

  111. The argument in favor of the existence of Jesus has many elements, but the one I find most compelling is that the last thing that ancient seekers of the Messiah would have wanted or expected was a Messiah who was ignominiously crucified. Nobody would have made that story up.

    It’s like the Obama birth: if you were going to make up a story, you wouldn’t make him the son of an anthropologist who was enmeshed in an unhappy relationship with a Kenyan socialist. Or have him born in Hawaii.

    vin (9314fe)

  112. a kinda slutty anthropologist at that

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  113. Good point. With all the expectation of the Messiah, the learned ones should have seen the sacrifice prefigured by the burnt offerings at the Temple. They were focused on his Kingship but wrong era.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (fed2dc)

  114. On Birfers…they realize an effective lie should follow facts as much as possible.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (fed2dc)

  115. Well that was the Bio Ms giderich allowed to stand for 17 years, Barry Durham doesn’t have the same cache as the Kenyan born son of a finance minister.

    Getting back to the main point, the nature of the messiah had been made clear in isiah, how did so many miss it.

    narciso (d1f714)

  116. Barry Soetoro and Bill Ayers made up the bio some time before 2004 and they were stuck with it. Some of it may even be true.

    I don’t know how much sluttiness you can accuse a 17-year old girl of, and her son, the child of an unwed teenager who had a fling with some foreign black guy, did become President of the United States. All mothers should be so lucky.

    nk (dbc370)

  117. And I just made up my own tweet: “Do hysterical atheists deserve to be read? The evidence just doesn’t add up.”

    nk (dbc370)

  118. Manchester makes the point that it wee pagan customs imported in the middle ages that diluted the early churches method, but I think it wee also having to take some of the burdens of governing after Rome’s infrastructure collapsed

    narciso (d1f714)

  119. Some. But the important ones were the traditions of the civilized “pagans” — the Greeks and the Romans. The Church preserved those civilizations and their traditions much more than it did those of the Germanic priestesses and Druids. I shudder to think what Christianity would have looked like if the Apostles had taken their ministry to Africa and Asia instead of the Roman Empire.

    nk (dbc370)

  120. But it started in Asia minor and Syria, but I see your point

    narciso (d1f714)

  121. Hoagie: Two points is all he got from his fake Tax Bill. That’s not a bump, it’s a shrump.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/trump_favorableunfavorable-5493.html

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (fed2dc)

  122. The most amazing thing about Trump’s rise in the polls:

    “The media’s coverage of President Trump has been overwhelmingly negative, more than three times more critical than the initial coverage of former President Barack Obama and twice that of former Presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton.

    The Pew Research Center said that the early coverage of Trump was 62 percent negative. By comparison, Obama’s coverage was just 20 percent negative.”

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/pew-trump-media-three-times-more-negative-than-for-obama-just-5-percent-positive/article/2644448

    Sounds like lots of people are ignoring the legacy media swamp.

    harkin (8256c3)

  123. Heh. Media actions were 95% negative on the sinking of the Titanic.

    They should have been more positive.

    Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (fed2dc)

  124. Adjusting for iversampling democrats its probably 55%

    narciso (d1f714)

  125. I saw this at Liberty’s Torch by Francis W. Porretto and thought I’d share:


    Today, December 28, commemorates the most horrifying consequence of the birth of Jesus Christ:

    HOLY INNOCENTS
    The Holy Innocents (1st c.) are the children mentioned in the account of Jesus’ birth in Matthew’s Gospel (2:16-18). When the Magi came to Jerusalem to find and adore the Baby Jesus, the newborn King of the Jews, King Herod requested that they inform him of the Child’s location under the pretense of offering Him adoration, too. After paying the Child homage and offering Him their gifts, the Wise Men were warned in a dream not to betray Jesus’ location, and departed for their home country by another route. Meanwhile the Holy Family was warned by an Angel to flee into Egypt. King Herod fell into a jealous rage over the Magi’s failure to report back to him. He ordered all the baby boys aged two years and under to be killed, according to the appearance of the Bethlehem Star to the Three Wise Men, in an attempt to kill the Baby Jesus. These baby boys died not only for Christ, but in his stead. The Church venerates them as martyrs. It is uncertain how many children were killed, whether a small number, or in the thousands. The Latin Church instituted the feast of the Holy Innocents in the fifth century. The Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls in Rome is believed to possess the bodies of several of the Holy Innocents. Their feast day is commemorated on December 28th.

    This aspect of the Christmas season is as important to remember as the birth of the Savior. It underscores the lust and savagery to which they who value power above all other things are prone.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)


  126. 128.Heh. Media actions were 95% negative on the sinking of the Titanic.

    They should have been more positive.

    Actually comrade, they were calling it “Unsinkable” before it sank and I don’t think you can get more positive or more wrong than that. Oh, yes you can. Call an election for Hillary by a landslide.

    The media was all negative on Trump wining so how did that pan out?

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  127. Heh. The Titanic is TDS and the iceberg is reality.

    harkin (8256c3)

  128. Hoagie – That’s awesome.

    Cankles’ new nickname is HRC Unsinkable.

    harkin (8256c3)


  129. 126.Hoagie: Two points is all he got from his fake Tax Bill. That’s not a bump, it’s a shrump.

    Ben, be honest. With the overwhelming constant and negative treatment he gets in the press, the media and on TV he should be at -27%. There is literally an army of anti Trump operatives repeating anything they see as negative 24/7 in the media. Anyone else would have been gone by now. Look how little negativity it took to knock the air out of Hillary’s support. The day of the election the media called Hillary 89% to Trump 7% then Poof! she was gone.

    Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7)

  130. Why the attempt at unpersoning, Paul in Romans 1 said it best.

    narciso (d1f714)

  131. “……be honest. With the overwhelming constant and negative treatment he gets in the press, the media and on TV he should be at -27%.”

    As someone who spends a lot of time in airports (with CNN-The Resistance Network blaring 24/7 that Trump is destroying everything “we” stand for) it’s incredible that his numbers are as high as they are.

    As you point out, the public (outside the delusional lefty bubble) is putting less and less faith in elites telling them they know best.

    harkin (8256c3)

  132. You (e.g. the great mass of voters) are not going to know the effect, good, bad or break-even of the tax bill until Spring of 2019. It is possible for Trump to maintain a blase attitude resulting in a slight Dem house majority (with anything ranging from a slim Dem majority to a 60-40 Repub majority) for the 2019-2020 congress. The best chance at reelection is for him to let the “empowered” Dems mince away at ridiculous legislation and futile attempts at restoring regulation and taxation (they would be done if they started entertaining items beyond say a road-building material-only rise in the MFT). Rauner in IL lost the battle (restoration of the 5% state income tax) but probably won the war of reelection (if he’s not kneecapped by a primary).

    urbanleftbehind (5eecdb)

  133. By definition, a socialist would never say, “The poor will always be with us.”

    Ingot (e5bf64)

  134. 138.”By definition, a socialist would say, “Exploit the poor, corrupt the leaders and blame the opposition – and they will always vote with us.”

    fyp

    harkin (8256c3)

  135. happy kwanza!

    judas (2ad7dc)


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