China Engages in Show of Force: Flies Bomber Over South China Sea
China flew a nuclear-capable bomber outside its borders in a show of force less than a week before US President-elect Donald Trump’s phone call with the president of Taiwan, it has been reported.
The 10-minute telephone call with President Tsai Ing-wen was the first by a US president-elect or president since President Jimmy Carter switched diplomatic recognition from Taiwan to China in 1979, acknowledging Taiwan as part of ‘One China’. It led to protests from Beijing.
The Xian H-6 bomber flew along the disputed ‘nine-dash line’ around the South China Sea, US officials told Fox News, passing over a number of disputed islands. The officials said it was designed to send a message to the incoming administration.
Provocation meets with provocation.
Luckily we have a steady hand coming in to the Oval Office.
UPDATE: [This update is wrong; see UPDATE x2. — P] The language in the story is misleading some readers into thinking that the Chinese action took place before Trump’s call. Not so, although that’s what the story mistakenly says. The story is based on a Fox News story titled China flies nuclear-capable bomber in South China Sea after Trump Taiwan call, US officials say:
China flew a long-range nuclear-capable bomber outside China for the first time since President-elect Donald Trump spoke with the president of Taiwan, two US officials told Fox News.
. . . .
The Chinese H-6 bomber flew along the disputed “Nine-Dash line” Thursday, which surrounds the South China Sea and dozens of disputed Chinese islands, many claimed by other countries in the region.
The Pentagon was alerted to the Chinese flight Friday. It was the first long-range flight of a Chinese bomber along the U-shaped line of demarcation since March 2015, according to the officials.
I have inserted some cautionary language in the middle of the first blockquote in this post so that people are not misled further.
As I have said previously, I cautiously support Trump’s taking a call from Taiwan’s president, but it makes me nervous because it’s Trump. I don’t trust him not to fly off the handle, because every decision he has ever made his entire life was based on ego.
UPDATE x2: Oh, Good Lord. Sammy Finkelman cited a radio show saying the flight happened before the call. So I went back to the Fox News story to re-read it yet again — and there is a video at the Fox News link showing reporters clearly saying that the flight happened before the call, just as Sammy said. Note that this video appears in a story that says quite clearly that the call happened before the flight. The headline, again, is “China flies nuclear-capable bomber in South China Sea after Trump Taiwan call, US officials say.” In case they change it, I took this screenshot:
Not only that, but in a story written on Friday December 9 they say the flight happened “Thursday” but officials found out about it “Friday” (as quoted in the post above) — strongly implying that the flight happened Thursday, December 8, after Trump’s call.
The sloppiness is not the Independent’s fault. It’s Fox News’s fault, and it’s pretty bad. The headline is dead wrong and the story is misleading.
Sheesh.
UPDATE x3: I give up trying to figure this out. DRJ offers this link to Stars and Stripes from today saying:
Tensions are mounting following reports that China flew long-range military aircraft near Taiwan and over disputed parts of the South China Sea at a time when President-elect Donald Trump has questioned a longstanding diplomatic agreement between Washington and Beijing.
The flights reportedly came shortly before and after Trump broke decades of U.S. practice earlier this month by accepting a phone call from Taiwan’s president, but before Trump questioned the “One China” policy that has heavily influenced relations between the U.S., Taiwan and China since the 1970s.
. . . .
Trump’s phone call with President Tsai Ing-wen is believed to be the first of its kind since the late 1970s, when the U.S. closed its Taiwan embassy and removed U.S. troops from the island.
The phone call spurred China to demonstrate a show of force, said Toshiyuki Shikata, a retired lieutenant general in Japan’s Ground Self-Defense Force and a professor at Teikyo University.
“China cannot let [Trump and Tsai] go over its head and talk to each other,” Shikata told Stars and Stripes.
Shikata said the call could be seen by other countries in the region as a projection of power and compel them to ally themselves with the U.S. over China, a move that China would feel bound to counter.
A nuclear-capable Chinese Xian H-6 bomber reportedly flew last Thursday along the Chinese-drawn “nine-dash line,” which surrounds about 90 percent of the South China Sea and includes the exclusive economic zones of Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and the Philippines.
Fox News reported the flight, citing two anonymous U.S. officials.
Last Thursday is December 8, well after the call. So Stars and Stripes is saying the flight reported by Fox News happened after the call. But the video at the Fox News link above said the flight happened less than a week before the call. The video is dated December 5. The Fox News story is dated December 9.
My best guess is that flights happened before and after the call. It’s tough to say with certainty that the flight after the call was not spurred by the call.
But to be honest, at this point I’m so confused I don’t know what to think and I am now done trying to analyze it.
““He owes nothing to the old guard, he sees a window for bold reforms, and he knows who his enemies are.”
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442959/trump-moves-right-pleasing-conservatives-alarming-democrats
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:49 amWhat is a higher order of provocation, and want that aimed at obama
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:53 amThe provocation was from China. Trump’s phone call, if it was anything, was “I got your provocation right here”. I do not fault Trump on this.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:59 am… and Hillary Clinton will still never be president.
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:00 amAbout as steady as the palsied hand leaving.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:01 amflying chineser penis is ruining christmas 🙁
happyfeet (a85748) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:05 am4. What about Joe Biden? He’s planning to run in 2020.
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:11 amDonald Trump wants to carry New York State in the next election.
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:12 am5… and yet a refreshing change from the passivity and “hey! Leave me alone, I’m golfing here!” approach over the last 8 years.
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:17 am0bama did nothing. He did nothing in Syria, he did nothing at Benghazi, he did nothing while China became militant in the South China Sea. Why is what Trump doing bad? It is better than a completely ineffective and obsequious president.
Jimpithecus (2c9c93) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:19 amBelated R.I.P. to Andrew Sachs, actor best known for playing Manuel on Fawlty Towers
Icy (cda340) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:20 amThe PRC knows that President Barack just wants to be left alone to eat his waffle.
The irony is that when Israel builds new settlements in its own territory, it’s considered provocative and the international community always has a freak-out about it. But here’s China literally building islands in international waters and bullying foreign ships in international waters, and the international community reacts by saying, “Hey, stop speaking on the telephone with the President of Taiwan — it’s not good manners to anger China!“
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:24 amnk’s got the right take on this. China is throwing its weight around. Trump’s phone call had nothing to do with China’s provocative act.
Chuck Bartowski (bba342) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:26 amWell remember the rule with provoking wookies, that being said.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:26 amI never understood the one-China policy, anyway. My mother had four sets of China. The everyday China and the Sunday China which she kept in the pantry; the very special occasion China for when we had guests that she kept in a walnut credenza in the dining room; and the just to look at China that she kept in glass-fronted wall cabinets in the parlor on either side of the fireplace. With matching silverware. And we all had our favorite cups and glasses.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:27 amHeh, they didnt want any acknowledgement of the running dogs in Taisei, and we got the khmer rouge as a lovely parting gift.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:30 amBetter give the Chinese whatever they want, I guess. Maybe if we get the electors to vote for Hillary Clinton they’ll go back to… oh I guess they’ve been doing this for the last several years.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:39 amYet another longtime Scumocrat heading to the pokey:
Former Pa. Congressman Chaka Fattah Sentenced To 10 Years In Prison
Icy (cda340) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:41 amThank you, Ms. Littella.
Jimpithecus (2c9c93) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:43 am“Luckily we have a steady hand coming in to the Oval Office.”
– Patterico
And big, too! So big. Everyone says we’ve got the biggest, steadiest hands coming to the Oval Office. There’s no problem there, I guarantee.
Leviticus (efada1) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:44 amTell me somethin’ good. I feel for him, Icy.
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:45 amless than a week before US President-elect Donald Trump’s phone call with the president of Taiwan
Oh, they did this BEFORE Trump took the phone call from Taiwan. So the Taiwan call could not have been the cause (unless the Red Chinese have time travel, which they might, they are known to be mysterious and inscrutable).
Forgive me, I am slow.
Luckily we have a steady hand coming in to the Oval Office.
Trump is not President and cannot do anything as Commander-in-Chief to respond to China, but it looks like taking Taiwan’s call was very much a steady-handed, reasonable response to Chinese provocation.
I sure hope to see more Trump responses as measured and as effective as this was. I wish our outgoing President could have done something similar.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:46 am@Leviticus:And big, too!
Okay, what do you think Trump should have done differently? The Chinese fly the bomber out of their territory, and then Trump should do–what?
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:51 amTaiwan should invite them to land and get a taste of freedom.
crazy (d3b449) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:54 amThis is apparently the second time the Chinese have sent the same (aged) bomber model into the same disputed territory.
No doubt it’s connected to Trump’s little chat with the Taiwanese President. But let’s not pretend the PRC has been very demure about its activities in the South China Sea over the last eight years.
JP (f1742c) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:54 amnk@15. Wow, you’re a rich guy. We had some mismatched Melamine and Melmak. Some as gifts, some bought at the Acme during holiday sales. Glassware were different size glasses that came free containing jelly, apple butter or sour cream . No two pieces of flatware matched except the place setting I stole from Horn & Hardart’s and was punished for. But we always had linen napkins. They were old bed sheets my mom cut up with pinking shears and hemmed. Any color you could want as long as it was white.
Now my wife’s “good” flatware actually is silverware and costs $579 a place setting. Times have changed. Thank God the love of the holidays hasn’t.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:56 am@JP:No doubt it’s connected to Trump’s little chat with the Taiwanese President.
Not without a time machine.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:00 amSo the Patterico version of “peace” gives China the veto power on who the president elect is allowed to acknowledge talking to? What you call provocation is nothing more than changing behavior that presently suggests we will eventually betray Taiwan. The “policy” of allowing China to force the rest of the world to pretend that Taiwan doesn’t exist is the same sort of slow motion surrender that will ensure Iran gets nuclear weapons in the very near future. Good luck with your “peace”. All you are really accomplishing is allowing the Chinese time to build up their forces while support for Taiwan, and international restraint, is diminished. Meanwhile the Chinese are allowed to pretend that their puppet in North Korea is uncontrollable. Peace at any price. Brilliant.
Japan has seen the writing on the wall, and they are rearming. This may prove to be the silver lining in the cloud of ashes that you think signifies a state of “peace”.
BobStewartatHome (c24491) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:00 amIt’s not in China’s best interests to bring the enlightenment of the Cultural Revolution to Taiwan anymore than it was to bring it to Hong Kong or Macao. (They saw what happened in Shanghai.) China’s ideal goal is Taiwan as capitalist portal to the West, under China’s control but isolated from contaminating the larger population with counter-Revolutionary ideas.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:02 amYes the h 6 is their b 52, the k is the newer model.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:03 am@BobStewart: I’m pretty sure Patterico doesn’t want “peace at any price”. He just wants to remind us that Trump is totally unfit to be President.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:05 amThe Russians put backfire bombers in Cuba during carter’s day.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:06 am“Okay, what do you think Trump should have done differently? The Chinese fly the bomber out of their territory, and then Trump should do–what?”
– Gabriel Hanna
I have no problem with Trump’s phone call to Taiwan. I just saw this as a good opportunity to make fun of Trump.
Leviticus (efada1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:06 amIt’s all relative, Hoagie. My mother never learned to drive but she was very house proud.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:08 amNow if were flying patrols over their mainland, like what triggered kale 107 that would be a different story.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:08 amWell bluntman did kick your state into red queen’s corner.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:12 am@Leviticus: I just saw this as a good opportunity to make fun of Trump.
Q. What do you call a short-fingered vulgarian with a ridiculous spray tan and some kind of badger for a hairstyle, who’s been through more bankruptcies than wives, claims to run a huge business but still somehow has time to stay up until 3 am arguing with people on Twitter?
A. President Trump.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:13 am33… there’s a job opp for you writing for SNL. They need a shot in the butt.
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:13 amThat might explain it. If Trump keeps kosher, he’d have two sets of China. And one set might be from Taiwan.
Chuck Bartowski (bba342) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:14 amOnly if Trump didn’t know about the bomber flight before he (allegedly) took the call from Taiwan.
JP (f1742c) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:14 amThis news just in… Hillary Clinton will never be president.
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:14 amRight on Gabriel.
PS- I found the site of the Mayview tramway in the Google satellite view. It’s a long, strait, scar in the landscape about four miles up river from the dam, with a parking area off “Tramway Rd” at the top. Thanks for the historical information, it’s in my bucket list of places to visit. And we watched the DVD of Horatio’s Drive, which was mentioned by someone else, last night and it was a lot of fun. It would be a good Christmas present.
BobStewartatHome (c24491) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:16 am@BobStewart: Glad to see you followed it up, but there’s not much there to see.
I spent a lot of time in the Snake River canyon. There’s plenty to do if you like good weather, fishing, and boats. Don’t go there just for the tramway.
I haven’t driven that side of the canyon and I can’t vouch for what roads you might find there.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:20 amThis also just in… large order of Cream of Sumyungguy Soup ready for Sinoexcusers…
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:21 amGreetings:
One of my current favorite forms of entertainment is watching (South) Korean “historical” serial TV dramas. These dramas can provide some insight on how things operate and have operated in that neck of the cultural woods. For instance, the various Chinas, Koreas, and Japans have been going at for long, long time. At times each held geo-political and military sway and the others had to go the old fight or kowtow route. Additionally, these situations don’t totally resolve. While American TV has been able to almost totally purge WW II from being broadcast, the above mentioned folkses not so much. Not unusual to come across dramas from China or Korea about their relations with Imperial Japan in the last century, hence my failure to resolve opinion. And the Japanese, well, they still find it kind of easy to not like non-Japanese unless they’re members of one of those Korean girl groups.
In spite of all the newly invented “isms” that have come down the east Asian seas, these countries maintain their Confucian roots and heritage. All those bows that President Obama so loved giving and receiving are still rendered and have meaning. Birth order remains important. Even the aforementioned K-Pop ladies will know which group member is oldest and where each is chronologically located. The “kowtow” also remains important unilateral decisions to abstain provokes the dreaded “loss of face” which has proves so useful to the bully boys down at the tong or the hand laundry.
Now, when the dear old People’s Republic of China, for which we have done so much to enrich and empower went off on its most excellent eastern seas adventure, I’m sure the “Party Leaders” had factored in their kowtow card and when to turn it over. My thinking lead me to thinking that maybe what they seemed to be after wasn’t really what they were overtly doing. I saw Taiwan, their long, long time target as their current target with the mini-islands being a kind of Oriental preparation of the battlefied effort constructing a military outer perimeter within which they would have much more significant sway something like the Imperial Japanese defensive concept in WW II.
So, when the President-Elect (and please forgive my mentioning that) took that phone call, perhaps it was more than just a kowtow violation. Perhaps it was a cut to the quick.
There’s Folger’s to swallow but two more bits of tid I must inflict. One would be the variations in the mentioning or lack of it of the Taiwanese President being its “First Female President”, an identification that had significant importance until a certain American Female discovered that the glass ceiling was made out of Pittsburgh Plate and a couple of others found impeachments in their present and quite near futures. Oh, and the other media contribution to the future joys of progressivism, that Mr. Trump, while yet an “elect” had overturned American foreign policy since the Carter of ’79. How presumptuous while the elected President recently overturned American foreign policy from only 1959.
Media, media, where are thou media ???
11B40 (6abb5c) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:23 am@11B40:Taiwanese President being its “First Female President”,
She’s also the first not 100% Han, which looms rather larger.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:25 amThey are in the septic tank, that’s where.
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:25 am@JP: Too many negatives. I think we are both saying that the Taiwan call might have been a response to the flyover, or it might not have been, depending on if Trump learned about the flyover before the call. But the flyover could not have been “provoked” by the call, because the call happened after the flyover.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:27 amRegarding my answer to Leviticus, I was going to say Trump is the 44th person to be President, which is true, but I got sidetracked trying to find out why Grover Cleveland counts as two Presidents despite being one person. (Yes, I know about the non-consecutive terms, why would that make any difference?)
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:32 amPark’s daughter seems to be a spot of trouble, also tsai is not kmt
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:33 amFederal judge dismisses PA recount…
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:34 amMENDOZAAAAAA! TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!nk, it proved not to be in Hitler’s “best interest” to attack the Soviet Union in June of 1942. But like the scorpion on the frog, tyrants have an internal guidance system that often defies notions of “best interest”. The puzzle is what will China become in a few more years. An oligarchy with notions of self interest that we can understand, or perhaps something very different, perhaps a throw back to Mao? Linear extrapolations into the future can be frightfully wrong. A lesson learned and forgotten, over and over again, in Europe over the past two centuries.
BobStewartatHome (c24491) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:36 am11B40,
I absolutely loved those when I discovered them on the local Korean station with subtitles. Tears Of The Dragon was my favorite — Shakespeare meets Joseph Stalin — especially the way he killed off all his in-laws. And the one with the three warriors who overthrow the eunuchs — Big Axe, Little Axes, and Twin Swords — was better than a Jet Li film festival.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:37 amYes
JP (f1742c) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:38 amI’m always in favor of bankrupting a communist slave state, so if China wishes to force their own bankruptcy, I have no objections. I also have no objection whatsoever to Trump and Congress revoking China’s MFN status whenever they might feel it necessary to do so. I’m always in favor of free trade between free states. Trading with slavers, not so much.
Rick Ballard (764455) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:40 amWhich might explain why she took the call, the kmt and play ruling clique have an understanding.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:41 am@BobStewart: it proved not to be in Hitler’s “best interest” to attack the Soviet Union in June of 1942.
He delayed Barbarossa until after he’d subjugated Yugoslavia, which was totally unnecessary. Had he started Barbarossa May 15, as scheduled, he’d very likely have put them out of the war, it was a very near run thing for the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union was at its’ militarily weakest in 1942. If he had not done that Stalin might well have invaded Germany in 1944.
Arguably Hitler should not have invaded Poland, he might have died in bed, and we might have a three-way Cold War on to this day, perhaps.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:44 amRick Ballard (764455) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:40 am
+1
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:46 am@Rick Ballard: Trading with slavers, not so much.
Economically speaking, free trade with slavers means all the benefit and none of the cost. The moral calculation is of course a bit different, but morals always cost you something (they’d not be praiseworthy if they didn’t).
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:47 amEvery time we buy “Made in China” we are contributing to the budget of the People’s Liberation Army which “officially” owns half the factories and likely all unofficially. It’s not like France “trading” with Senegal in 1840.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:50 amKind of like we shipped scrap steel to the Japanese, they returned the favor in Mitsubishi airframes
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:56 am@nk:Every time we buy “Made in China” we are contributing to the budget of the People’s Liberation Army
And they turn around and sink that money right back in to the US Treasury, which pays for a military more expensive than next several combined.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:56 am11B40, islands are hard to sink, but they are liabilities without firm control of the air, and thus the sea around them. If the Chinese think the southern islands will be an asset in a coming confrontation, then they are planning a very quick and decisive campaign or a much more massive buildup of their forces. And the latter, of course, would presume no nuclear response. I think this is more along the lines of a psychological test, an opportunity for the Obama administration, and other “peace” lovers, to blink and thus further undermine our support of Taiwan. Which brings war that much closer, since it would be a war the Chinese would expect to win.
BobStewartatHome (c24491) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:00 amwouldn’t be cool if we sent a B1-B along the same flight path..?
NeoCon_1 (a253a4) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:04 am@BobStewart:If the Chinese think the southern islands will be an asset in a coming confrontation
It’s just to let the other nations around them know that China is a lot closer than the US is. Some of these islands are almost in Indonesia.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:06 am“When we hang the capitalists, they will sell us the rope we use.” — Joseph Stalin
“When we hang the capitalists, we will have sold them the rope we use.” — Deng Xiaoping
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:10 am@NeoCon_1: I think the appointment of a reputed Blood Knight secretary of defense is at least as good and a lot cheaper.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:11 am@nk: And how has that worked out for them so far?
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:12 amThey’re always saying stuff like that, nk, and never able to back it up, because their economic system can’t deliver the goods.
“Communist” China is so in name only. They have crony capitalism there, and they depend on world markets for the slim prosperity they have.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:13 amReal good, I’d say, Gabriel. Compare today’s China with any other China before 1949 when any foreign power (not to mention any homegrown warlord) could grind its face in the mud.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:14 amThey have crony capitalism there,
Designated capitalists, I would say. It’s still a totalitarian state and their billionaires are still Hayek vassals serving the larger interests of the state.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:17 am@nk:Compare today’s China with any other China before 1949 when any foreign power (not to mention any homegrown warlord) could grind its face in the mud.
Yeah, and what did they have to do to get away from that? Give up the planned economy.
It’s still a totalitarian state and their billionaires are still Hayek vassals serving the larger interests of the state.
And those cronies will be impoverished by a war that cuts off trade. The government of China is evil, but that’s a huge improvement on Ax-Crazy, which they were when I was born.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:21 amI dunno, the Ming were a pretty big deal in their heyday.
JP (f1742c) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:21 amAnd the Chin (or Quin) too, JP. Around the same time as the Macedonians. 😉
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:24 amGabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:27 am
It was in the works for some time,
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/us/politics/bob-dole-taiwan-lobby-trump.html
…so you could argue maybe they thought the flyover would prevent it.
Of course the flyover gave all the more reason to take such a call, but there are people who would make the opposite argument.
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:25 amIt is important to the government of China that there be no truly ethical businessmen in China. A person like that might get interested in the government being ethical – and more – too, and might be able to accomplish something with money.
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:27 amUh, What was the original point of this post again? I doan like it when I waste my lunch hour on a nothingburger. (Some of the comments WERE pretty good, though!)
elissa (530391) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:27 amTell me somethin’ good. I feel for him, Icy.
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:45 am
Cellmate Bubba will be singing 🎤 “Tell me that you like it — yeah!” 🎤
Icy (cda340) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:31 amI don’t know if some of you “free marketers” appreciate the depths that patriotism and nationalistic feeling can reach in a people. People will sacrifice everything, not merely luxury consumer goods, to have a country they are proud of. Including their freedom as well as their lives. It was the case with the Russians who defended Stalingrad, and I believe it is the case with the people of Cuba and Vietnam and China.
Of course, that is not in the best interest of the multi-nationals whose flag is a balance sheet.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:31 am@nk:I believe it is the case with the people of Cuba and Vietnam and China.
2 out of those 3 gave up planned economies. As for Cuba, people still try to leave on anything that will float. Cuba is so great no one is allowed to leave it…
People will sacrifice everything, not merely luxury consumer goods,
In general these countries have trouble delivering basic necessities. It’s not just “luxury consumer goods” they’re giving up.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:37 amOh Sammy.
elissa (530391) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:39 am@elissa:What was the original point of this post again?
The Chinese are jerks, and aren’t we sorry we have Trump as President, that’s about the gist.
Patterico did not come out and say that the flyover was due to the phone call, he just said that “provocation leads to provocation”.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:43 amThat’s precisely the kind of person to interfere. They don’t like independent religious leaders or human rights lawyers either.
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:44 amYeah, they don’t like any competition with the state for people’s loyalties.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:46 amYep. Worth pointing out when the latest iteration of Beijing-as-Middle Kingdom gets a bit froggy with the neighbours.
JP (f1742c) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:51 amParadoxically, the Soviets were pretty big on suppression and expression of nationalist sentiment. The most obvious example is probably Stalin’s revival of the Orthodox church during the war. Go figure that ordinary Russians cared less for a Bolshevik line about dialectical materialism than the God and Country or the Holy Trinity.
This is something the PLA, which ostensibly exists to consolidate the power of the Party, would do well to consider.
JP (f1742c) — 12/12/2016 @ 11:04 amJP, have you seen the movie “Alexander Nevsky” by Eisenstein? Its theme is Russian patriotism. It was made in 1938 which makes me think that it was in response to the Red Army’s defeats in their first war with Poland and in the war with Finland. Stalin also brought back fancier uniforms with badges of rank and a miscellany of medals.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 11:16 amAwesome? Or just plain mean? https://pjmedia.com/video/donald-trump-says-he-offered-hillary-clintons-campaign-five-cents-on-the-dollar-for-the-fireworks/
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 11:27 amHi nk – afraid not, but Nevsky was a year before “rapprochement” between Moscow and Berlin, so it’s quite likely that Stalin and the nomenklatura saw a lot of daylight between European fascism (real and imagined) and Russia’s vanguard placed at the End of History.
The Soviets invaded Finland at the end of ’39.
JP (f1742c) — 12/12/2016 @ 11:29 amIf we only had the smartest woman in the world with her magic button, all would be well.
dfbaskwill (a0813f) — 12/12/2016 @ 11:38 amTaiwan called to congratulate President Trump on winning the election.
Less than a week before that the Chinese wouldn’t have known who would be the next president.
papertiger (c8116c) — 12/12/2016 @ 11:41 amMaybe they were trying to blow wind up Hillary’s skirt .
Maybe checking to see how she responded to a jerk of the leash,
papertiger (c8116c) — 12/12/2016 @ 12:05 pmI think you’re right, JP.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 12:19 pmI’m so happy that Mr Donald defeated that nasty lying Hillary woman.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 12/12/2016 @ 12:20 pmWe all saw how poorly she handled Benghazi. She shouldn’t be asked by America to handle the South China Seas.
The Chinese Xian H-6 bomber was made under license from Tupolev, in service since 1958. Man that’s old technology! Should we really worry about that?
Tom (1e059e) — 12/12/2016 @ 12:25 pmOur primary long range bomber is the B-52, which has only been in service since 1955. Talk about cutting edge technology!
At least we designed and built it ourselves.
Can we just stop being stupid, for once?
China has been around for 3,000 years. China has a track record. China didn’t wait until 1776 to start doing **** in response to our foreign policy. I recall listening to an Uzbek army officer eplicate the situation back in the ’90s. “China is like the ocean. Right now the ocean is calm.”
Feel free to unpack all that is just-not-quite-right in that circumstance. Let me give you a couple of hints to start off with. He was an Uzbek, a resident of a land-locked country, talking about oceans. And he was a Muslim, and there I was notorious Islamophobe listening.
But he knew China, so just cut it out.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 12:34 pm@ Tom (1e059e) — 12/12/2016 @ 12:25 pm, I’ll start worrying when the CHICOMs develop the submarine leg of the nuclear triad.
Figure the odds of the Chinese getting that bomber past 7th Fleet or, hell, Andersen Air Force Base.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 12:41 pmGuess again
JP (f1742c) — 12/12/2016 @ 12:42 pmI probably shouldn’t be asking shortly after the 75th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor if we can stop being stupid.
I should already know the answer.
Sorry for wasting everyone’s time.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 12:49 pmSteve 57,
Speaking of stupid, some of our right-of-center friends believe that a defense/diplomacy team which includes names such as Mattis and Bolton is not necessarily preferable to what Hillary would have assembled.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 12/12/2016 @ 1:02 pmIs that supposed to be a dig at me? If you would go back and look at the evidence you’d find after a long hard struggle I concluded that Hillary! would be a disaster beyond contemplation. I don’t regret that choice, but Trump continues to disappoint on several levels.
Not just for the same reason I’m livid about Trump even entertaining the idea of Petreaus as SecState. But that’s one of them.
http://www.ussnautilus.org/undersea/cromwell.html
Figure the odds of me all of a sudden not caring that men took this nation’s secrets to the grave.
I can score with women without doing what Petraeus did.
I can’t do anything about the fact he got off with a misdemeanor but I sure as hell wouldn’t offer hi a job. Or even give the appearance of offering a job.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 1:15 pmi can’t wait for them to do the inaugurate on President Trump!
it’s gonna be so hard to stick to dry january cause it’s such a joyous occasion
maybe they’re gonna have hotlines you can call
happyfeet (a037ad) — 12/12/2016 @ 1:16 pmIf they’re old enough, and their eyes are bad.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 1:18 pmYou couldn’t really miss it if you tracked what the NORK media was proclaiming after Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il died.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 1:26 pmGreetings, BobStewartatHome: ( @ 63 (c24491) —12/12/2016 @ 10:00 am )
Don’t much at all disagree. I’m pretty much a tactical vs strategic thinker so I saw the island investments along the lines of infantry Observation Posts or the night-time version Listening Posts with a bit of an initial delay function. I don’t think the Chicoms would much worry about the losses of either lives or resources as they seem well-stocked in both categories. On the other hand though, if you’re familiar with the naval aspects of the Southwest Pacific in WW II, casualties will mount pretty quickly in island areas. As far as air power, well, it didn’t do very well against the island bound Japanese and them Asians don’t seem to mind a good bit of digging.
I also agree with the “putting down stink” aspect of their initiative. When it comes to resource allocation, do any of you others really want to go to the mat over these specks.
11B40 (6abb5c) — 12/12/2016 @ 2:00 pm==Maybe they were trying to blow wind up Hillary’s skirt .==
You silly wabbit! Hillary does not wear skirts.
elissa (530391) — 12/12/2016 @ 2:41 pmhttp://www.ww2pacific.com/downfall.html
I am beyond a doubt only here because we didn’t invade.
Some might have wished for a different outcome. But the atom bomb saved a lot of lives.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 2:47 pm#101 Steve 57, how in God’s name did you construe that as a dig at you? It’s a dig toward our right of center friends who can’t even get excited about Mattis or Bolton.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 12/12/2016 @ 2:51 pmThey really haven’t made a good movie since then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stray_Dog_(film)
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 2:52 pm@Cruz Supporter. I’m excited about Mattis. He is who we need. Petraeus isn’t. But I’ve said my piece.
I have no idea what to think, anymore.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 2:56 pmSteve 57, I agree with you about Petraeus. After spending all year thrashing Hillary for failing to run an air-tight ship as Secretary of State, we can’t turn around and nominate Petraeus to become Secretary of State considering his issue with nat sec documents.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 12/12/2016 @ 3:03 pmKeep this in mind, when the dancing bears that comprise the joint chiefs of staff tell you about non issues.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/25/sailors-leaving-navy-over-stress-on-social-issues-/
Mattis, I hear, is the antidote.
PS. The Iranians wouldn’t have had their way with me like they did with riverine crewmen. And not because I’m better. I never had to contend with the b***s**t.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 3:05 pmCruz Supporter, you either love your country or you don’t. And I don’t care how harsh this makes me look, but you don’t reveal your country’s secrets to get laid.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 3:10 pm#113 Steve 57, totally agree.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 12/12/2016 @ 3:25 pmBy the way, Steve, I always enjoy your links/summaries of our unsung military heroes, especially in the Pacific theatre.
Just as you know, I am not one of them.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:03 pmSpeaking of unsung heroes, I’m about halfway done with “Joe Rochefort’s War.”
https://www.amazon.com/Joe-Rocheforts-War-Codebreaker-Outwitted/dp/1591141613
The subtitle is more than a little hyperventilating. He was, after all , human.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:08 pm== You silly wabbit! Hillary does not wear skirts. ==
That’s a good thing, because if she were the President-elect she would be hiking her skirt up for China right about now.
papertiger (c8116c) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:12 pmYou would be surprised Steve57, at just how much esprit de corps you display and share with many brave patriots I had the honor to know and serve with. I’d pick you for my dodge ball team any day. That’s the truth.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:12 pmAnd she could probably fit all of China under it.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:14 pmOther than the Philippines, the islands we occupied in the Pacific campaign had to be taken either for strategic purposes related to supporting the B-29 bomber offensive, or for denying the Japanese bases they could use to attack the supply lines to those bomber bases and to Australia. And the island invasions were horribly costly, as you pointed out. A much larger invasion of Japan would have been even more ghastly had we not used atomic weapons to mercifully force an end to the war. The “specks” the Chinese are occupying have no native population that we need to worry about, we have no critical use for the islands, and supplying those specks could become a very costly proposition if a shooting war developed. Thus, there would be no need to occupy the specks provided they could be denuded of long range weapons, meaning ships, aircraft and missiles. And I think our Navy could do that quite well. Think of drones constantly on station at 30,000 to 50,000 feet looking for targets worth a Hellfire missile, for example. Control of the air would be the critical factor, and that would be our main goal.
BobStewartatHome (c24491) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:17 pmPoltroon with a Propensity for Propagating Pusillanimous Pablum…
“PAUL KRUGMAN ON ELECTION NIGHT: “If the question is when markets will recover, a first-pass answer is never.”
Reuters today: Dow Posts Another Record High.”
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/251665/
Colonel Haiku (987a1a) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:26 pmThe erstwhile enron consultant.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:28 pmSteve @116, I finished Rochefort’s War a while back. It’s a good book. After reading it, I had a sense that Rochefort was fighting some inner demons related to Dec. 7th, while the REMFs in D. C. had no such feelings. For them, the war was a marvelous opportunity to advance their careers, provided only that they could find a suitable scapegoat for their manifest failings, and sadly, Rochefort was it.
BobStewartatHome (c24491) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:28 pmKind words. All I have to offer is this.
My dad, the sainted Senior Chief, thought I’d make a good intel officer. My DI picked up where he left off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=415HQ1t2ZNI
Gunnery Sergeant Holt approved of me. The Senior Chief approved of me. That’s good enough for the nation, as far as I’m concerned.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:34 pmBobStewartatHome, I take it you are speaking of the two infamous brothers.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:38 pmHoagie better men than me have gone before me.
https://newwars.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/060618-n-8492c-066.jpg
My contribution to national defense was passing crayons to better men than me, so they could do mission planning.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:49 pmI recently re-read Charlie Wilson’s War by George Crile–the true story of how a rogue anti -Russian Texas congressman who got himself on the right House committee, in concert with a brilliant and fearless rogue CIA operative, was able to secretly provide the CIA with hundreds of millions of dollars to fund and arm the covert Afghan program. This amount dwarfed the price tag for arming the Nicaraguan Contras that occurred at virtually the same time.
If you haven’t read it, you should. It will further inform your understanding of what goes on behind the scenes in Washington D.C. (and probably horrify you as to how much of what the CIA does is out of anyone’s control.) There was a movie made based on the book, but as always I say “go with the book”.
elissa (530391) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:55 pmI’m glad you’re back, Elissa.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 4:57 pmit is, elissa, among the details that film leaves is that the late Gus avrokotos discovered how many of theses Afghan Arabs were reveivung weapons and tried to put a stop to it.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:09 pmhttp://americandigest.org/sidelines/ahhillarystilllosing.jpg
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:22 pmI second Steve, elissa.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:28 pmUPDATE: The language in the story is misleading some readers into thinking that the Chinese action took place before Trump’s call. Not so, although that’s what the story mistakenly says. The story is based on a Fox News story titled China flies nuclear-capable bomber in South China Sea after Trump Taiwan call, US officials say:
I have inserted some cautionary language in the middle of the first blockquote in this post so that people are not misled further.
As I have said previously, I cautiously support Trump’s taking a call from Taiwan’s president, but it makes me nervous because it’s Trump. I don’t trust him not to fly off the handle, because every decision he has ever made his entire life was based on ego.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:28 pmYou are free to spend your lunch time, and all your time, as you choose.
I hope the UPDATE I just posted helps clarify my thoughts, with which all right-thinking Trump fans will instantly disagree.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:30 pmPeace in our time!
http://youtu.be/89od_W8lMtA
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:43 pmhttp://youtu.be/de1vyikBnsg
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:49 pmWhat happened in march 2015?
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:49 pmShouldn’t that be:
If this is a grammatical error, or some sort of clumsy writing, I can’t figure it out how you get it.
Maybe it was first reported that the Pentagon learned of it on Friday, but it had happened sometime before, and before the call. Later somebody told Fox News the flight happened the day before the Pentagon found out, but the Independent article was written before that was clarified.
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:52 pmThey are making great strides!
http://youtu.be/dcB6D19S3g8
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:52 pm136. narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:49 pm
The New York Times broke the story about Hillary Clinton not using state.gov at all.
Now what happened in the south China Sea was that there was a long-range flight of a Chinese bomber along the U-shaped line of demarcation.
Malaysia Airlines 370 happened in 2014.
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 5:55 pmI’m not too worried, yet, Patterico. What Trump does with China will be like what he did with Carrier. (Saved 550 fifty jobs at a cost of $7 million, screwed 2,500 other workers whose union had already worked out severance packages for, and looked good to his followers.) The same thing with China, I think. Just something shiny with no substance.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:01 pmThank you Steve and Narciso. I appreciate that. As you can probably discern, our host does not view my presence and return to occasional commenting here with quite that same warmth, and it’s his blog. So we’ll just see how things pan out over the next few weeks and months. People reading this post on the Chinese bomber over many hours today, including me at lunchtime, had every reason to expect that what he had posted was accurate, and we reacted to the tiimeline–flight first, call later–exactly as it was written when the thread opened. Hence the big yawn and push back to his original “Provocation meets with Provocation” sentence.
elissa (530391) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:01 pmFact-check me on those Carriers numbers if you have time, Sammy.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:02 pmSo I ask what provoked that flight back then, strong words by Ryan and mcturtle?
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:07 pmWhat would Hillary be doing right about now?
FLASHBACK: Bill Clinton Collected Donations, Then US Missile Tech Shipped To China
My money is on Hillary shopping notes from the pre election security briefings.
papertiger (c8116c) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:12 pmHope Trump’s transition team is changing the locks.
Be upset with Trump. Or don’t. It doesn’t matter. It’s all the same.
Let’s see what he does when he’s actually in the office. That’s what counts. My $.02.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:12 pmAnd it sure is nice to read your takes and musings, elissa. Once again.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:14 pmCompletely coincidental, there is talk of The Donald hiring Carly to deal with the China problem specific.
Carly Fiorina Was Just Seen Entering Trump Tower With Kellyanne Conway
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/12/12/carly-fiorina-was-just-seen-entering-trump-tower-with-kellyanne-conway/#ixzz4SgGSPbXJ
papertiger (c8116c) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:21 pmDid they get a room, though? They may have just been going to the lounge.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:25 pmThe rumor its about dni, they implement the worst parts of the 9/11 commission findings.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:31 pmTo be honest, I didn’t notice that the Guardian had used the word “before.” For further context, I spent the morning concerned about a problem with my phone’s battery. I normally post one item at RedState in the morning, and I didn’t this morning because I was spending all my time trying to figure out how to get through my workday and explaining to people who were calling me with things to cover in court that they couldn’t necessarily text me because my phone wasn’t working. I was running late but happened to see this story as I was about to run out the door and popped it up, wanting to have some fresh content for the site, and not realizing that the literal wording of the story contradicted what I believed had happened (and, as it turned out, what really did happen).
My belief is that the Guardian, having read a story about the flyover happening after a call, meant to say the call happened before the flyover and ended up saying the opposite. Errors like this happen all the time in rewrites.
Anyway, around lunchtime I noticed that commenters were saying this flyover happened first. I thought: that’s odd. So I went back to see if that’s the story really said, noticed that it did, still thought it was weird, and followed the link back to Fox News. When I saw what had really happened, my lunch break was ending and I made a mental note to make an update tonight.
elissa, I am often interested in your comments. The main ones that tend to be less pleasing to me are the ones that seem snippy at me. Like the one you wrote today.
As for everyone having “every reason to expect” that what I posted was accurate . . . you seem to think I am snipping at people for reading the story the way it was written. Not at all. My update does not blame the reader. Instead I say: “The language in the story is misleading some readers into thinking that the Chinese action took place before Trump’s call. Not so, although that’s what the story mistakenly says.” Blame is put on the
GuardianIndependent, not the commenters for being misled. If there is any blame besides that laid on theGuardianIndependent, it’s on me for quoting something that turned out to be inaccurate because I was in a hurry. (Sure, I could say that any reader could do what I did and follow the links back, but I won’t say that because the onus should be on me to do that for you.) So to be clear: I’m not blaming you or anyone else who read the actual language of the article and believed what it said.And I guess I can see feeling annoyed by that. It’s just that you seem to be annoyed at me quite a lot lately.
[UPDATE: I’m now annoyed with myself for bringing up the topic to begin with, because it turns out that the Independent was right and Fox News was wrong. See comments below and UPDATE x2. — P]
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:33 pmMeanwhile deployment of strikes against raqqua is what enabled jayvees to retake palmyra
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:36 pmPopular mechanics explains the category error, in the threAT escalation
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:41 pmIn point of fact, they flew them before, the call and after, like the Rico commercial ‘its what they do,’
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:44 pmI credit a left wing blogger, moon of Alabama, for putting the reports together. 0its a gonzo time.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:46 pmHeard on the John Batchelor show:
So it was before the telephone call, which ws on Friday, December 2. November 25 was a Friday. If it took place on Thirsday, that would be November 24, and Thanksgiving.
Oh. The November 25 flight was around Taiwan.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2016/12/11/2003660975
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:49 pmThe way I see it Pat’s negging of Trump helped get him elected.
Everywhere a person looked it must have seemed the world had it in for Trump unfairly.
Thank You Mr. Frey.
Keep up the good work.
papertiger (c8116c) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:49 pmNow’s as good a place as any to say that I am thinking of changing the focus of many of the posts on this blog — not all — away from politics and towards a discussion of other ideas that interest me, based on things I am reading or listening to at the time.
There are a couple of reasons.
The one I am about to describe first is not the only one.
Blogging is more fun when you can discuss what you have in common with a bunch of relatively like-minded people. Right now, discussing Donald Trump is not enjoyable for me because a) it often depresses me to begin with, to see the party eagerly following a shitbird and his big government policies, and 2) watching many of my commenters go down that same road leads to incessant criticism of me. Somehow I think I manage to express my disagreement with people on these issues without telling them they’re wrong. But a lot of people who have been reading me for a long time seem to think it’s very, very important to tell me, not just that they disagree with me, but that I am wrong to have the opinions I have — and they exert subtle or often nonsubtle pressure on me to change. Those who know me well know that I will never say anything I don’t believe to get along with people, but having people constantly carp at you is not a hugely rewarding feedback set for something that is, fundamentally, not much of a moneymaking proposition but rather a labor of love.
I won’t stop posting criticism of Trump, but after a while banging your head against a brick wall feels less like a noble exercise and more like something that just makes your head hurt. So yeah, to some extent, all the pressure may work, just because constant complaints in the comments section are draining to see day after day after day.
But that’s not the only reason.
Politics has begun to bore me. Learning about the world is more interesting to me these days. Much of it is studying free market economics, which does lead into criticism of Trump. But I’m also studying the Beethoven symphonies, and relativity theory and quantum mechanics, and symbolic logic, and the history of economic thought, and artificial intelligence and machine learning, and so on.
I am in the middle of Kevin Kelly’s The Inevitable and it’s one of the best books I have read in a while. I used to spend a lot of my free time filling my head with partisan politics, and these days I’d rather spend time making notes on points made in interesting books like Kelly’s. It’s easy blog content to take those notes and turn them into blog posts, since I’m making the notes for my own benefit anyway. In the old days I would maybe read a book and then review the whole book in a single post on the blog. But why not make discussion of one or two or three interesting chapters into a post? The ideas are fascinating, the commenters here are interesting and varied and no doubt would shed light on some of the ideas, and I wouldn’t feel like I was fighting people all the time.
My guess is I’ll still average a political post a day. It’s a political blog, and a media criticism blog, first and foremost.
But you’re likely to start seeing a few less political posts and a few more “hey isn’t this offbeat thing I just read interesting?” posts.
Like I say, I have been meaning to say this anyway. This is a perfectly fine time and place to do so.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 6:51 pmnk, the furniture your mother used to display the best china is called a breakfront. My mother kept hers, and so I have it too, although I never use the china, since over the years it became trafe, and you can’t according to most opinions make china kosher once it’s become unkosher. But it’s a nice set. She also had two everyday sets, for meat and dairy, and two sets for Passover. I gave those away to Goodwill, and use two place settings. I live alone, and it’s simpler to take people out for a good steak.
Kishnevi (18dae1) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:00 pm156. What Larry Sabato basically has said was that when coverage of Donald Trump increased, he went down in the polls, and when cooverage of Hillary Clinton increased she went down in the polls. Each candidate nennefitted from less press attention. Now maybe that may show up statistially that way because of what the coverage was.
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:04 pmOn the main topic, cast your minds back to our relationship with PRC in 2000-2001. Things got tense then, until 9/11 caused us to focus on alQaeda.
Kishnevi (18dae1) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:06 pmIntriguing topic, why does there seem to be such little innovationoutside of the tech field, except in the case of pie in the sky ventures like theranos. This ties into the relativrly few public offerings.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:08 pmChrist. Sammy is right. Fox News fucked this up beyond recognition. Writing yet another damned update.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:09 pmPatterico, I will be glad to read whatever you post, although I may get even more windbaggy if the topic is Beethoven. But I already agree with you about Trump.
Kishnevi (18dae1) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:09 pmWait. Let’s try to make sure.
Also, isn’t your quote from the Independent? That’s who may have messed it up. Fox News may be right.
The Nov 25 flight was around Taiwan.
Sammy Finkelman (8b8667) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:12 pmIts a gonzo time.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:12 pmOT Tonight I noticed one of the stores in the mall I work in has become a Tesla dealership. Had either two or three cars on display.
Kishnevi (18dae1) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:13 pmUPDATE x2: Oh, Good Lord. Sammy Finkelman cited a radio show saying the flight happened before the call. So I went back to the Fox News story to re-read it yet again — and there is a video at the Fox News link showing reporters clearly saying that the flight happened before the call, just as Sammy said. Note that this video appears in a story that says quite clearly that the call happened before the flight. The headline, again, is “China flies nuclear-capable bomber in South China Sea after Trump Taiwan call, US officials say.” In case they change it, I took this screenshot:
Not only that, but in a story written on Friday December 9 they say the flight happened “Thursday” but officials found out about it “Friday” (as quoted in the post above) — strongly implying that the flight happened Thursday, December 8, after Trump’s call.
The sloppiness is not the Independent’s fault. It’s Fox News’s fault, and it’s pretty bad. The headline is dead wrong and the story is misleading.
Sheesh.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:15 pmI was thinking those posts would just be therapeutic and that absolutely nobody would enjoy them. But maybe I’m wrong. You’re a Beethoven fan?
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:17 pmThank you, Sammy.
This shows why it is good to the have the distributed intelligence of smart commenters.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:19 pm@157. Well said.
“Serenity Now!” – ‘Seinfeld’ NBC TV
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:21 pmStars and Stripes says there were two flights, one around Taiwan before Trump’s call and one at the Nine-Dash line after the call:
But it doesn’t matter since Trump isn’t President yet, right?
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:22 pmI think the topic of why I make notes about the books I read these days could be a topic of its own.
I didn’t used to do that. Now I always do. I retain more. Russ Roberts talked recently about how he annotates his books. I can’t do that to a book. I hate to do it even to a Kindle book. So I make a separate set of notes, on Workflowy, with the stuff I want to remember.
It’s a little more tedious but I think it’s worth it in the long run.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:24 pmDRJ,
I can’t take it. I could swear I distinctly heard the Fox News reporters say the flight they were reporting happened before the call. Can you go watch the video at the Fox News link in the post, to confirm that I am not going slowly insane?
I’d like to confirm that first before I write yet another *&^&*(^ update.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:26 pmIt’s weird; it seems to me like what he is doing and saying now matters, but I am repeatedly assured it does not.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:27 pmThere doesn’t appear to be cause and effect, its like when there apocalyptic claims about the bp spill which ignored a previous event. The one thirty years before.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:27 pmI’m a classical music fanatic. When classical music went off the radio in Miami, I went deep into collecting CDs, to have something to listen to. I probably have about four thousand now, including about 35 complete sets of Beethoven’s symphonies, about fifty jazz CDs ( half of them being Mikes Davis), and about a dozen rock/pop CDs–to show where my loyalties lie.
Kishnevi (18dae1) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:28 pmBut my real composer favorites are Bach, Mahler, and Shostakovich.
Miles Davis. I grovel in penitence for the blasphemy.
Kishnevi (18dae1) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:30 pmWhat happened to wlrn?
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:35 pmUPDATE x3: I give up trying to figure this out. DRJ offers this link to Stars and Stripes from today saying:
Last Thursday is December 8, well after the call. So Stars and Stripes is saying the flight reported by Fox News happened after the call. But the video at the Fox News link above said the flight happened less than a week before the call. The video is dated December 5. The Fox News story is dated December 9.
My best guess is that flights happened before and after the call. It’s tough to say with certainty that the flight after the call was not spurred by the call.
But to be honest, at this point I’m so confused I don’t know what to think and I am now done trying to analyze it.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:37 pmThe Berlin Philharmonic was in town recently. I got to watch Simon Rattle conduct Mahler’s 7th at Disney Hall. Wow.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:38 pmTILLERSON!
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:44 pmIts like breaking viginiere ciphers to get to the truth.
The other blog i frequent softens posts links to brahms and chopin amons othet
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:47 pmI think China flew around Taiwan in late November in an effort to convince the Obama Administration to reach out to Trump and stop him from talking to the Taiwanese President, a call that was reportedly long-planned and thus was undoubtedly well-known to Beijing.
The December flight was an escalation by China in response to Trump actually completing the call with the President of Taiwan.
Obama is obviously a lame duck when it comes to foreign policy, and Trump’s foreign policy has obviously already started — something that Trump supporters will be glad to trumpet as long as they think it makes Trump look good. Otherwise they will claim he has not taken office and it’s unfair to even mention him, other than to say TRUMP BEAT HILLARY!!
But I’ve been voted off the island so feel free to ignore this or complain that I’m annoying. Interestingly, it seems my patience and Patterico’s ran out at the same time.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:48 pmI know that people of all faiths can appreciate the artistry.
If you’re not a belieber, regoice! Neither were they.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3K5oLg-Fq4
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:51 pmNo, DRJ, you have not been voted off the island. But I know how you feel. I dealt with it by scratching several people off my “pay attention to” list.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:54 pmChina’s Xi met with Kissinger in China on the same day as the Trump-Taiwan President call. That didn’t just happen. Kissinger is in his 90’s.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:56 pmOne recalls the words of venetal chi haotian, future defense minister, who after a similar maneuver in 1995, had Charles freeman, relay some harsh words to the Clinton administration,
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:01 pmI’m off the island, but it was interesting seeing how confusing this was to so many people who rail about the fake media and then believed every word they read.
To me, there is value to discussion, nk, and the value is it lets us find problems and try to figure them out. But clearly the comments have become a Trump echo chamber and other ideas aren’t welcome. So why bother when we clearly aren’t wanted?
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:02 pmIt’s like those samurai movies. Not quite saber rattling.
Ichito Kikamatsu: Wasamata yu? (Grasps sword hilt.)
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:04 pmMenowashi Ichibatu: Wasamata me? Wasamata yu, wasamata? (Grasps sword hilt.)
(Both stand immobile glaring at each other.)
https://static.pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Screen-Shot-2016-12-12-at-10.12.23-PM-600×219.png
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:04 pmWelcome to my side of the Swamp. We vast right wing conspirators will be holing a laboratory demonstration on firing the MG42 on the 18th.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL09sLcKW4M
Followed by drinks and dancing in the Armada Lounge. Hope to see you there.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:05 pmI meant China and Taiwan not DRJ and the Trumpkins. 😉 We cross-posted.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:05 pmIts a gomenasai (sic) situation.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:10 pmWhat was his blood pressure have to have been to produce this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvDMageNEYU
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:14 pmDRJ, I would be honored to be in your lifeboat.
Kishnevi (18dae1) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:16 pm“157. I am thinking of changing the focus of many of the posts on this blog — not all — away from politics and towards a discussion of other ideas that interest me, based on things I am reading or listening to at the time.”
Probably a good idea.
One of the bloggers I’ve been reading for years, Moe Lane, got caught up in the neverTrump bandwagon and his blog became a pain to read. About every post was an extravagant anti-trump screed. He — along I gather with a bunch of other bloggers — got hired on to Redstate during the primaries and they all went frothingly anti-trump. Then the convention came, and the volume got cranked up to 11. But when Trump won the nomination, Redstate fired them, and Moe posted on his blog that he was going to cease political posts.
The anti-Trump hatred has been mind-numbingly unhinged. It’s one thing to dislike a politician, even to loathe them, but a huge amount of the NT stuff this season brings to mind the famous scene from Tropic Thunder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKG-kbKeIo
It will be nice to be able to visit blogs and read something other than over-the-top anti-Trump stuff.
fred-2 (ce04f3) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:16 pmI’m so thrilled that Mr Donald defeated that nasty lying Hillary lawyer woman.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:17 pmChristmas will be good.
I will enjoy my eggnog!
We need to resist the Occupation, DRJ. Or is it Reconstruction?
I am a NeverTrumper and that is what I am.
For badger-headed hucksters I do not give a dam’.
I’m glad I fought agann’im, I only wish we won.
I ain’t asked any pardon for anything I’ve done.
Sing it with me!
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:17 pmThank you, kish, as always. We’ve known each other a long time, and it’s been my pleasure.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:18 pmNow there can be miscommunication on both sides, type operation Ryan and able archer. The former was made worse by talbott and scheer
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:20 pmI’m fairly certain that fred-2’s account is fiction.
I’ll keep the Trump criticism going just for you, snowflake, because I know you like it so much.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:20 pmIn other news, the next installment of the expanse starts in February.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:22 pmRe the flights, note that the November flight was around Taiwan while the post-call December flight was around the Nine-Dash line. That is an easy way to tell them apart and it’s also significant IMO.
The pre-call November flight was a message to the Taiwan government to keep quiet and not talk to Trump. The December flight was a message to the area governments to remember who is the big military power in the region.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:23 pmSanjuro. I actually have the tape. Great movie. Yojimbo too.
As for the blood pressure, one time I dropped a Buck knife (the classic folding one) on my bare foot, atop of the instep. About 1/8″ cut but the blood squirted all the way to the ceiling, nine feet.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:24 pm==The pre-call November flight was a message to the Taiwan government to keep quiet and not talk to Trump.==
On what basis do you assume the Chinese government knew in advance about a potential call between Trump and the Taiwanese government? Hacking?
elissa (530391) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:26 pmIt really is the most fully realized hard science fiction serial in who knows how long. ‘Game of thrones’ in space is not such a reach.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:28 pmWhat’s ironic about this is that both Patterico and I are cautiously impressed that Trump is embracing Taiwan. P worries that Trump will not be consistent, while I worry that Trump plans to use Taiwan as a bargaining chip and will sell the Taiwanese out (in trade, security, and militarily) to score points in his negotiations with China.
But it seems these concerns are not allowed with this crowd. Because TRUMP BEAT HILLARY!!
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:31 pmIts a concern, but as has been pointed out, pompeo and probably Matt’s and chai lean toward taiwan
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:33 pmI worry that he could get us into a nuclear war.
The post was really just to remind people that the Chinese take this issue seriously.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:34 pm@DRJ:But it seems these concerns are not allowed with this crowd.
No one said that.
But I’ve been voted off the island
And that never happened, either.
Gabriel Hanna (14083c) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:35 pmBut if a non-erratic person were doing this, yes, I’d be pleased with little reservation. I like supporting self-governance and independence.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:36 pmTeh Song of #NeverTrump… http://youtu.be/BLaGXAH5n50
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:36 pmJust say NO! To snowflakes…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:37 pmI don’t think such an assumption is necessary for DRJ’s speculation to be valid. Also, one basis for them to suspect it (again, “knowing” is not necessary) would be the stories about Priebus’s contacts with Taiwanese officials.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:37 pm@Patterico:I worry that he could get us into a nuclear war.
Well, let’s unpack your worry. Why would the Chinese want to launch a nuclear war against the US now when they never did over the last 25 or so years they had the capability?
Or is it you assume Trump would just start one, for no reason, and everyone else would just go along with it?
Gabriel Hanna (14083c) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:38 pmI mean, the MAD calculus remains what it ever was. Trump’s election didn’t change any of that.
Gabriel Hanna (14083c) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:38 pmThe call was planned for months, even before Trump was nominated, and too many people were involved. You can’t keep secrets like that.
Bless you, Gabriel. You are as determined as I am and I admire that.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:39 pmBy the way, I have said it before and I will say it again: I have never called myself “NeverTrump.” In fact, I’ll quote myself from May 3:
So, when people criticize “NeverTrumpers” they are not criticizing me.
Of course, Trumpers are not known for their ability to make nuanced distinctions.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:40 pm“Because TRUMP BEAT HILLARY!!”
YES!!!!!!! And Hillary Clinton will never be president!!! We don’t have to see or hear her and don’t have to contend with her sorry-assed, failed, leftwing policies! For the next four years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:41 pm@DRJ:The call was planned for months,
So it wasn’t some spur-of-the-moment Trump brainwave, but something carefully planned in advance? Doesn’t sound much like the Trump fellow I’ve been reading about in the papers.
Gabriel Hanna (14083c) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:41 pmThen you must have loved Obama because he stopped us from having President Hillary. That’s your reasoning, right?
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:43 pmIf that doesn’t make you smile, get checked for a pulse.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:43 pmTrump carefully plans his moves to help himself. It’s the other consequences that can be the problems.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:45 pm25 years. Let’s see, 25 years ago from 2016 would be 1991. Can we think of anything that is happening now that has not happened in the last 25 years?
Oh, that!
No. I see the potential for a gradual escalation of chest-beating from two sides that do not know how to back down.
But that could never ever ever happen except for the one time it did happen in 1962.
I am taking a course in negotiation and one of the lessons discussed how the Cuban missile crisis ended. Might make an interesting post. The thing is, the resolution didn’t have to happen. It easily might not have.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:45 pm@DRJ:Then you must have loved Obama because he stopped us from having President Hillary
I personally have never denied Obama credit for this. It might be the only good thing he accomplished in office, keeping Hillary out of it.
Gabriel Hanna (14083c) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:45 pmFor men and women who remember the past, how different we are!
A wife was curious when she found an old negative in a drawer and had it made into a print.
She was pleasantly surprised to see that they were of her at a much younger, slimmer time, taken many years ago on one of her first dates with her husband.
When she showed him the photo, his face lit up.
“Wow, look at that!”, he said with appreciation…
“That’s my old Ford!”
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:45 pm@Patterico:Can we think of anything that is happening now that has not happened in the last 25 years?
There’s a lot of things besides that in the last 25 years. There will be no nuclear war over a phone call.
If that were remotely possible, then the Chinese are a greater evil than Hitler and can’t be trusted to be reasonable any more than he could.
But that could never ever ever happen except for the one time it did happen in 1962.
And we were years recovering from the nuclear devastation that followed…
I’m tired of hearing about every Republican that their cowboy chest-beating is going to drag the world into nuclear war. I think you are letting your distaste for Trump cloud your usual good sense, and after 8 years of no nuclear war you may come around.
Gabriel Hanna (14083c) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:49 pmObama and Hillary are equally bad to me, so it’s interesting that you find Obama beating her to be a plus. I would normally ask you to explain that but there is no point to political discussions here. They devolve so quickly.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:49 pmThat would be like choosing between strychnine and cyanide drj china’s state communication apparatus is very sophisticated, when the opm as hacked, oddly there was t this level of outrage!
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:49 pmWhat crowd are you talking about? I don’t even like Trump. How many times do I have to say that?
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:50 pmSalon reports that Hillary Clinton won Twitter during the election. Hillary has not yet named her Twitter cabinet.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:52 pmDid that course note. Kruschev had threatened to put midsilrs in cubs as early as 1960. The Jupiter missiles were the pretext.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:53 pmNYT book review from 1982, by Joel Klein. He was reviewing a book by Robert Scheer:
The point is that Reagan nuclear war policy may differ only in nuance and rhetoric from what has gone before. Mr. Scheer is right, however, to be alarmed by nuances that in so perilous a game may mean the difference between survival and destruction. To admit that the capability to fight a limited nuclear war exists and must be planned for, as the Carter Administration did, is a far different proposition from believing that the threat of such a war might be used as a policy weapon, as the Reagan theorists apparently do. Herbert York, the director of Defense Research and Engineering under President Kennedy, tells Mr. Scheer: ”What’s going on right now is that the crazier analysts have risen to higher positions than is normally the case. They are able to carry their ideas further and higher because the people at the top are simply less well-informed than is normally the case.”
This may be something of an understatement. Mr. Reagan emerges from his interviews -which were fleeting, conducted in transit on his campaign plane – as a man of terrifying naivete, prone to exaggeration and outright invention, liable to confuse the current Soviet leadership with the Hollywood Communists of the 1940’s….
The idea that substantial numbers of people could be protected from a nuclear attack is, Mr. Scheer writes, ”the talisman of those who believe that nuclear war is survivable.” Mr. Jones, with his shovels and dirt, is in charge of those plans. If Mr. Scheer is guilty at times of oversimplifying the complexities of strategic planning, it is a minor flaw when compared with the potentially lethal foolishness he has revealed here.
Gabriel Hanna (14083c) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:54 pmnarciso,
I agree it’s likely the Chinese government has multiple Humint sources in Taiwan and probably tech/ eavesdropping, too. So a leak about Trump’s call did not have to come from the US side.
Steve,
I don’t see you as part of the Trump crowd here.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:56 pm“With little resistance, China incrementally annexes the South China Sea while embarked on a naval buildup inversely proportional to the smallest U.S. fleet since 1916, and further aggravated by China’s ability, once its naval technology matures, to surge production in its 106 major shipyards as opposed to America’s six. More importantly, China is expanding its nuclear forces—to what extent we do not know, because the Chinese program’s infrastructure is hidden within 3,000 miles of tunnels largely opaque to U.S. intelligence. As if China were not a major rival, the Obama Administration, ever infatuated with accords, has made no effort to include Beijing in a nuclear-arms-control regime. Why not?”
http://www.claremont.org/crb/article/defense-is-missing-in-action/
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:59 pmYou know what invites attack? Perceived unwillingness to fight.
Gabriel Hanna (14083c) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:59 pmIt’s not only Taiwan that is important to the Chinese leadership. “Face” is too. They are in power only because they are perceived to be powerful. Like gangsters. If they show weakness, they will be deposed by other ambitious men in the Party.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 8:59 pmDefinitely, The Gathering Storm.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:00 pmHow long did Kruschev hang on after the Cuban missile crisis, BTW?
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:00 pmGood point, nk.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:01 pmIt is so wonderful that the nasty lying Hillary woman is not going to be our next President.
Some of our nice friends on the right disagree.
But I don’t know how anyone can say that a cabinet with Carson, Mattis, Sessions, maybe Perry at Energy, and Haley at the U.N. is not light years preferable to the Star Wars bar scene that Hillary would assemble.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:01 pmCome on, Greedo as Secretary of State? Hammerhead as Secretary of Interior? (LOL)
Gabriel Hanna, if it makes you feel better to mischaracterize my arguments, the better to tear them down, go right ahead. The moment you start doing that is when the discussion ends for me. You’re tired of x, y, and z? Yay for you. You know what I’m tired of? People who don’t respect me enough to discuss my actual concerns, so they construct and attack strawmen instead.
It should be perfectly obvious to you that when I cite the phone call, I am not saying there will be nuclear war over a phone call. Since it’s obvious to you, why do you pretend that’s what I’m getting at? If we were having a face-to-face discussion and you were determined to treat my views with respect, you’d instantly understand that my concern is that the phone call may indicate a posture of aggression that Trump, as an erratic and ego-driven individual, is bound to escalate.
And you would also understand that I do not cite the Cuban missile crisis as an example of a nuclear war that happened, because everybody fucking knows that. So, obviously, I am citing it as an example of a situation that shows how escalation can get out of hand. And if you can be flippant about that crisis then you might want to learn more about it, because we came very very close to nuclear war — and it wasn’t toughness that ended it, either. It was knowledge of the Russian character, and gestures that allowed face-saving. I worry that Trump is not capable of that kind of negotiation, his phony reputation based on a book he didn’t write notwithstanding.
These are valid concerns. But you don’t address the valid concerns. You act like I am claiming that it is a phone call that will start the war. You act like my concerns are just silly and you are tired of me talking about them.
Fine. I will not talk to you then. If your next comment is not of a different character than your previous one, I will begin one of my periodic self-imposed 24-hour bans on talking to you when you get into one of your dismissive snits.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:01 pmYes Gabriel, eventually scheer, Stalinist groupie was even too crazy for the dog trainer. Besides Jones there was richard pipes who was considered too subjective by the likes of talbott, general rowny as chief arms negotiator, you see how history rhymes
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:02 pmYou know what else invites attack? Endless escalation with no “out” offered to the other side to save face.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:03 pmAnd Joe Klein reveals he was a hack that far back, before the journolist.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:05 pmTrump gets sued a lot by people who probably didn’t want to sue him but had no other option. It’s that kind of escalation and refusal to compromise that are troublesome about Trump. The qualities that make him seem tough can also make him seem dangerous.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:07 pmWe’ve offered plenty of “outs” to Islam. I am open to entertaining that position. The problem is Islam doesn’t give us an out.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:09 pmThings might have been very different in 1962 but for the fact that Tommy Thompson had literally lived with Khrushchev, giving him insight into what made him tick and how to react to him, and was available to advise JFK on how to respond to messages from Khrushchev.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:10 pmThat’s an interesting definition of escalation, a phone call to an ally regime, whereas the play has been saberrattling since last march, obstructing shipping lanes
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:11 pmWe’re not talking about Islam and Islam is not a person. But if you’re saying that human psychology, including the importance of letting others save face, is never important in a negotiation if the person on the other side is Muslim, then I think you’re mistaken. But that is truly another discussion for another day.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:12 pmIt may be a worthwhile escalation but how can it not be an escalation, especially when he isn’t even President yet?
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:14 pmHe caved on the Trump University thing after claiming he never would. That is actually a possible positive sign, that he may allow himself to look like a chump when the alternative of endless escalation would be suicidal.
But yes, in general, his hyper-aggressive attitude on litigation is very worrisome and reminds me of other vexatious litigants.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:14 pmExcept kruschev sensed weakness after the Vienna summit, not to mention Kennedy’s climbdown during the bay of pigs, this manifested itself in confrontation in Berlin and operation anadyr
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:14 pmExcept he’s almost always settled at his time and choosing
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:21 pmShowing resolve is important, narciso, I agree — but the alt-right Trumpy “everything must be fought to the nth degree” ethic is stupid and dangerous.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:21 pmI didn’t think his Trump University settlement seemed particularly favorable to him. And the frivolous libel suits he files are giant losers. There’s really no defending Trump’s litigation record. I wouldn’t go down that road.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:23 pm“You know what else invites attack? Endless escalation with no “out” offered to the other side to save face.”
Who has been endlessly escalating? It appears China has been moving forward in an extremely provocative militarization for a number of years now. All in preparation for a major conflict. Is accepting a phone call from a well-wisher that much of a provocation? I don’t see it.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:23 pmWell too much backdliding and equvocation, they name is Mcdonnell is also unhelpful on domestic as well as foreign matters.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:24 pm“Alt-right” is leftyspeak.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:24 pmThen you don’t understand the Chinese and Taiwan.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:25 pmLitigation, to paraphrase clausewitz is war by other means.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:26 pmOh, don’t misunderstand. I’m not saying Trump has demonstrated unending provocation by taking the call. Far from it. Simply taking the call is quite defensible.
My point is this: China is upset and will continue to be upset if this policy continues. And I just don’t have any faith in Trump to handle that properly. When it comes to this kind of stuff, he frightens me. He is a fan of endless escalation over personal slights. That’s his shtick. Apply that to a nuclear power like China and it’s scary to me.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:27 pmSahih al Bukhari 831 Book of Call to Prayers (Adhaan)
Allah does not love the unbeliever and our place is hellfire.
Surah 3:31-32
Surah 30:43-45
I’m curious to know why anyone thinks I spend an inordinate amount of time on the Quran as opposed to the Bhagavad Gita. Maybe because the Quran talks about me. Dunno.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:27 pmFalse. It’s what they call themselves. You need to get out more.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:28 pmchineser bro are you mad
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:30 pmPat, just so you know, I don’t esteem warmongers.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:31 pmOnly characterizing them as white supremacist is, its more paleocon, Paul gottfried I believed coined the phrase.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:31 pmMany of them are white supremacists, but it’s not a fair generalization for the movement. But white nationalist is fair. Many of the big alt-right Twitter folks claim the white nationalist label — like Vox Day and his ilk.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:33 pmLet’s hope the Chinesrers think so.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:34 pmSome are, some find PC stultifying stupid if nit Stalinist, and this leads to untactful language
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:38 pm“False. It’s what they call themselves. You need to get out more.”
It’s a fvcking pejorative favored by leftwing douchebags to describe anybody who doesn’t toe their line. Don’t kid yourself.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:39 pmFavored by Clinton to describe her so-called deplorables, the 50% of the country’s population she held in contempt.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:41 pmMilo is certainly not a white nationalist, now taki the Castro loving form
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:42 pmSpokesman for the colonels
I did that especial for you, Mr. Feets. I hope you noticed.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:44 pmHere is Vox Day’s Twitter account, Colonel. Note the #AltRight hashtag. Did a lefty hack his Twitter feed and put it there? No. He put it there, because he, like thousands of other Twitter users, proudly describes himself as #AltRight.
Click on the hashtag and peruse some of the sites. Someone is lying to you and you’re buying it. There is a real, actual Alt-right.
What the fuck do you think Steve Bannon was talking about when he described Breitbart as the platform for the alt-Right? Was that lefty speak? Did someone put those words in his mouth?
Sure, some lefties may overuse the term. But to act as if the term itself is “lefty speak” and just something made up by the left is deep, deep, deeeeeep denial, dude.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:44 pmAlt-right, Schmalt-right. A piss-ant number of people that bad actors like to make use of.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:44 pmMilo is a pure provocateur, nothing more.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:45 pmDoes that make Bannon a bad actor?
DRJ (15874d) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:47 pmHe meant that portion of the right not obessant to pieties on culture and economics
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:48 pmAd he said in his 2014 speech at the vatican.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:52 pmWhy did Bannon make a point of saying Breitbart (which they love to brag is now a hugely trafficked site) was the platform for the alt-right if they barely exist?
Gee, maybe there is more to the picture here than the Colonel wants to see.
Patterico (f8a200) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:55 pmI choose to restrain myself.
.
It may surprise certain individuals to learn I have respect for Chicago.
It produced Butch O’Hare.
https://www.stlmag.com/The-Butch-OHare-Story/
And its namesake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Chicago_(CA-29)#Loss_at_the_Battle_of_Rennell_Island
(I normally don’t use Wikipededia as a source).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/USS_Chicago_(CA-29)_off_Guadalcanal_Aug_1942.jpg
I don’t mean this as a peace offering. Chicago went down with her colors flying. So the hell with all of you.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 9:58 pmAfter what was dine to the tea party, thanks in part to weasel weigel, you ask that question, you can throw Tommy Christopher in that bag as well.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:00 pmMy father served in Cherokee.
In case I need to ‘splain myself, sister to Navajo.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:04 pmThat was a whole nother generation, Steve.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:04 pmSikako. It means skunk.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:05 pmYes.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:07 pmhttp://www.navsource.org/archives/09/39/093906604.jpg
God damn.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:11 pmThat is not to say, there aren’t men of that caliber in subsequent generations.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:11 pmOf course not, narciso. I’ve worked with them. I got thrown out of the Kadena Officer’s Club with them. And I was proud to do so.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:17 pmIt was an Air Force Base. What can I say?
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:18 pmMy late friend was at tachakawa fab in the early years of the southeast Asian theater.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:42 pmDo you mean Tachikawa? Not like it matters.
Steve57 (0b1dac) — 12/12/2016 @ 10:46 pm179. Patterico (115b1f) — 12/12/2016 @ 7:37 pm
There were two – well, actually three – flights, in two different places. Three flights and two routes, on what could be three different days.
One flight route was around Taiwan, circling it. The first one, on (Friday) November 25, which was only announced later by Taiwan (I don’t know how manyy days later – I on;y listened to asnippet of taht radip show, and didn’t get the context) which went counterclockwise, down the west coast and back up along the east coast (but over international waters) and the other one (Thursday) December 8, which went clockwise, and was announced by Taiwan the next day, December 9.
The second flight route was in the South China Sea, over what everyone, except possibly China, considers international waters, and was over the 9 dash “boundary” line China once put on a some map somewere and has never clarified more precisely. Other countries mostly avoid crossing into that airspace, and do not do so routinely, but the United States military, I think, occasionally does. It’s where China said the boundary of its territory was, taking into account the new islands.
That flight took place maybe before, maybe after, the telephone call between Taiwanese president, Tsai Ing-wen (a woman) and President-Elect Donald Trump, on Friday December 1 which Trump tweeted about shortly afterwards.
Sammy Finkelman (20cc53) — 12/13/2016 @ 3:16 amSo there was some completely no damage done fore and aft bomber flights taken at our China girl in Taiwan, too late for the lame duck and too early for the Don to make a reaction.
They closed Alcatraz prison because it cost too much per prisoner to run.
This got me thinking about China’s new airport in the South China Sea.
Previously uninhabited island with not enough provision to support a turtle.
On Alcatraz they only needed to bring stuff by boat, and the city was right there. The price of bring water was the camel back breaker.
So China’s got this new air force base built on a postage stamp needing constant maintenance just to keep the ocean from eroding it. Everything freighted in from elsewhere.
That’s a boondoggle. That’s a money pit. And I read that China is going to make at least two more artificial islands.
We should be encouraging this behavior. Maybe rent them some American dredges.
Is alt/right less/greater/ or equal to racist?
Because I’ve been called racist before. It’s not that bad.
papertiger (c8116c) — 12/13/2016 @ 3:31 am“Vox Day”??? WTF. Do these people exist? Yes, they do. Do they matter? Apparently, to some they do. Just say “NO!” to Twitter.
Here’s a story: the Democrats – aided by their media colluders – are attempting to de-legitimize the election of Donald Trump and to overturn it. If they are allowed to get away with it. Does that interest anyone here?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/13/2016 @ 5:10 amNot very confident about Trump as a safe foreign policy hand either, but the Chinese have been making this bed for years.
Quite apart from whether these tensions would lead to a nuclear standoff, or even whether the US and its allies would intervene overtly and quickly in the event of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, the [more lucid] PLA brass must know how poorly that invasion attempt might go (at least in the near future).
JP (f1742c) — 12/13/2016 @ 6:05 amThey matter to Steve Bannon, one of Donald Trump’a key advisers. He declared his site the platform for these people, showing that he believed them to be important.
Saying “alt-right” is “lefty-speak” just does not match this undeniable fact, unless you are saying Bannon is a lefty. Is that what you are saying?
Patterico (f8a200) — 12/13/2016 @ 6:05 amI’m guessing Vox Day has more readers than my site ever had.
The platform for the alt-right, Breitbart, gets tens of millions of page views per month.
Patterico (f8a200) — 12/13/2016 @ 6:08 amNo major outlet except breitbart and the daily caller covered derrick bell and his influence on Obama, to cite one example.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/13/2016 @ 6:32 am“Alt-right, Schmalt-right. A piss-ant number of people that bad actors like to make use of.”
– Colonel Haiku
You should probably just stick to posting links. You seem to get tangled up when you try to make your own arguments.
Leviticus (efada1) — 12/13/2016 @ 8:57 am